Eastern Conference Tiers With Michael Pina, and John Jastremski Joins Mets Corner

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Zach Lowe Show Episode: Eastern Conference Tiers With Michael Pina, and John Jastremski Joins Mets Corner
Release Date: July 24, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of The Zach Lowe Show, host Zach Lowe dives deep into the intricacies of the Eastern Conference with NBA analyst Michael Pina. They dissect team performances, predict playoff contenders, and debate the current state of various franchises. Additionally, the episode features a fresh segment, Mets Corner, where John Jastremski joins to discuss the New York Mets' recent performance and future prospects.

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Eastern Conference Tiers Breakdown with Michael Pina

Timestamp: 00:00 – 32:15

Zach Lowe shifts the focus from the Western Conference, which has been the center of much attention due to high-profile players like Damian Lillard, Chris Paul, and LeBron James, to the Eastern Conference. He emphasizes the importance of the East, predicting that it will supply approximately 50% of the NBA Finals participants next year.

Tier 1: Teams Capable of Winning the Eastern Conference

• New York Knicks
• Cleveland Cavaliers
• Orlando Magic
• Atlanta Hawks

Zach argues that the Eastern Conference remains competitive with teams like the Knicks and Cavaliers showing strong performances. Surprisingly, he includes the Orlando Magic and Atlanta Hawks in the top tier, despite their usual underperformance.

Notable Quote:

"Teams who can plausibly win the Eastern Conference. Teams who could make the NBA Finals." – Zach Lowe [04:14]

Michael Pina expresses skepticism about the Hawks' inclusion in the top tier, questioning Trae Young's defensive capabilities and the team's overall cohesion.

Notable Quote:

"Who are the real contenders? Who are the tankers? Who's in the middle? Where do we disagree the most?" – Zach Lowe [00:00]

Tier 2: The People's Champion

• Atlanta Hawks

Michael Pina designates the Hawks as the "People's Champion," highlighting their off-season moves and improved three-point shooting but remains cautious about their defensive depth and reliance on Trae Young.

Notable Quote:

"I applaud you for venturing out on that limb with the Hawks." – Michael Pina [07:48]

Tier 3: Middle Class with a Puncher's Chance

• Detroit Pistons
• Miami Heat
• Philadelphia 76ers
• Toronto Raptors

Zach categorizes these teams as having potential but also facing significant challenges. The Miami Heat, in particular, stand out due to their strong culture and coaching under Eric Spoelstra, despite offensive inefficiencies.

Notable Quote:

"Eric Spoelstra has never won coach of the year, famously. This is the type of season where that could totally be in the cards for him." – Zach Lowe [39:23]

Michael Pina remains optimistic about the Heat's culture and Bam Adebayo's potential rebound, while also expressing concerns about their offensive consistency.

Tier 4: Play-In Teams

• Indiana Pacers
• Boston Celtics
• Milwaukee Bucks
• Chicago Bulls

These teams are seen as on the cusp of making the playoffs but are not strong contenders for the Eastern Conference title. Zach critiques the Celtics' roster changes and the Pacers' loss of key players like Myles Turner.

Notable Quote:

"I'm putting them in this tier above Boston, who we're going to get to." – Zach Lowe [37:45]

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Mets Corner with John Jastremski

Timestamp: 77:06 – End

John Jastremski joins Zach Lowe to discuss the New York Mets' recent four-game winning streak and their position at the top of the NL East. The conversation delves into player performances, roster changes, and the team's prospects for the playoffs.

Mets' Recent Performance

The Mets have currently achieved a 59-44 record, showcasing resilience after a mid-season slump and pitching injuries.

Notable Quote:

"They are 59 and 44. They were at one point, 45 and 24 with the best record in baseball." – Zach Lowe [79:24]

John highlights the return of key pitchers like Kodai Senga and Sean Manaea as pivotal to their recent success.

Key Players and Prospects

• Juan Soto: Despite early-season slumps, Soto is regaining his form and remains a critical asset for the Mets.
• Carlos Correa: Playing a significant role, Correa's performance is essential for the team's offensive stability.
• Pete Crow Armstrong & Javi Baez: Trades have bolstered the Mets' roster, with both players making notable contributions.

Notable Quote:

"If he can be a plus catcher for the Mets, forget about top prospect in baseball." – John Jastremski [85:51]

Zach expresses concerns about the Mets' run differential and bullpen stability but remains cautiously optimistic about their chances in the postseason.

Trade Discussions and Future Moves

The dialogue touches upon potential trades, including the hypothetical acquisition of Eugenio Suárez and improvements needed in the bullpen to solidify their standing.

Notable Quote:

"I think pitching help, reliever, starter, either one. Because if you get a starter then you have more flexibility with guys that you can move to the bullpen." – John Jastremski [96:19]

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Conclusion

In this episode, Zach Lowe provides a comprehensive analysis of the Eastern Conference, challenging conventional wisdom by elevating teams like the Orlando Magic and Atlanta Hawks. With Michael Pina, he navigates through the complexities of team dynamics, player performances, and future prospects. The introduction of Mets Corner with John Jastremski adds a refreshing perspective on baseball, offering insights into the Mets' journey this season.

Final Notable Quote:

"This is what I'm here for. I'm here to enlighten. I'm here to inform." – John Jastremski [93:53]

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Key Takeaways

• Eastern Conference Depth: The East remains highly competitive, with unexpected teams showing promise.
• Team Tiers: Understanding team tiers helps in predicting potential playoff contenders and dark horses.
• Mets' Resurgence: The Mets are on an upward trajectory, but their success hinges on maintaining pitching strength and offensive consistency.
• Player Development: Young talents like Jalen Johnson and Evan Mobley could redefine their teams' futures.
• Strategic Trades: Teams may need to make critical trades to bolster their rosters for a successful playoff run.

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This detailed summary encapsulates the core discussions and insights from the episode, providing listeners and non-listeners alike with a comprehensive understanding of the topics covered.

Transcript

[Zach Lowe]

This episode is brought to you by Factor. Make this your best season yet with nutritious 2 minute meals from Factor. Eating well has never been this easy. Just heat up and enjoy, giving you more time to do what you want. Get outside instead of prepping and cooking indoors. Factor meals arrive fresh and ready to eat. Perfect for any active lifestyle. Get [e-mail] low L O W E50OFF and use the code low50OFF to get 50% off plus free shipping on your first box. This episode is brought to you by Turner Classic Movies. Elizabeth Taylor, Richard Burton, two of the biggest movie stars of all time. In the scandalous affair that almost took down a studio, Ben Mankiewicz tells the behind the scenes story of one of Hollywood's most notorious productions and how it forever changed the life of his great uncle director Joseph Mankiewicz. TCM's the plot thickens Cleopatra available now wherever you get your podcasts. Coming up on the Zach Low Show. NBA season off season is winding down. We've been talking a lot about the west lately because so much of the news dame and Chris Paul and Devin Booker and and LeBron. What's going on with the Lakers has been focused on the West. Even Jonas Valentunas, the mini drama there. West, West, West. What are the tears of the West? Kevin Durant plays for the Rockets today. We're shifting to the junior varsity. The East. Yeah, the east still matters. The east is going to supply, I think by my math, 50% of the participants in the NBA Finals next year. So we're talking East. We're gonna with Michael Pena go tears of the East. Who are the real contenders? Who are the tankers? Who's in the middle? Where do we disagree the most? That's going to be fun. And then it's time for Mets Corner, baby. Four game win streak. Back in first place in the NL East, John Jastremski makes his debut on Mets Corner. He's going to teach me stuff about baseball. He might yell about Aaron Boone. I'm a little bit worried about his state of mind about the Yankees. We're going to talk about baseball trade deadline. I'm going to ask a ton of stupid questions. We're going to talk about uniforms and all sorts of dumb stuff and my daughter's love for Francisco Lindor. That's coming up on the latest edition of Mets Corner sweeping the nation. All coming up on the Zach Lowe Show. Welcome to the Zach Lowe show. It's Thursday, July 24, a month before my birthday. By the way, if anyone wants to get some Gifts ready? And we've talked a lot about the Western Conference. So much news in the Western Conference. Kevin Durant, the Suns, Bradley Beal, Chris Paul, Damian Lillard, on and on. It's time to talk about the East. We're going to do that with my friend Michael Pina. How are you, sir?

[Michael Pina]

I'm doing tremendous, Zach. How are you?

[Zach Lowe]

I'm good. It's time to talk about the jv. You ready?

[Michael Pina]

I. I texted you yesterday. This was a more morose topic than I anticipated, but I'm super excited and. Oh, you got it.

[Zach Lowe]

You can't be so morose. The least conference, the bit I look, the biggest competitive advantage in the NBA being in the Eastern Conference. It was true 30 years ago. It was true 20 years ago. It was true 10 years ago. It is still true today. So I would do this column every year before the season. Tears. I've been doing it for 15 years. I. I would do it for the whole league, put the whole league into categories. It was like my version of power rankings. I kind of like it better than power rankings because it forced me to categorize more broadly where teams are in their sort of spectrum of development and. And within the league. We're going to do that today for the Eastern Conference. Sorry, Wes, you'll have to wait for another day. So I. I only gave you one rule I have. Let me see how many tiers I have. I don't even know. I have 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 tiers. One tier has only one team in it. We will get to that team. I don't know how many you have, but I only gave you one rule. One tier must be called teams who can plausibly win the Eastern Conference. Teams who could make the NBA Finals. I did not give you this sub rule. But a rule that I gave for myself beneath that rule was it has to be at least three teams. It can't just be Cleveland and New York. You have to go out on a limb and pick a third team that could plausibly win the East. My first tier has four teams because it's July and I'm going crazy. Okay, here are the teams. Are you ready? How do you. How many does yours have?

[Michael Pina]

My first tier has three teams, so I make the cut.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay, you do. You followed my rule by accident. I assume two of them are New York and Cleveland.

[Michael Pina]

Correct.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay. I have the Orlando Magic as a team that could plausibly win the Eastern Conference. You're nodding. You have that team?

[Michael Pina]

Yes, I have the Orlando Magic as my third team.

[Zach Lowe]

I Went crazy. I went crazy. And to nobody's surprise, I have a fourth team. And to nobody's surprise, it is the Atlanta Hawks are in my could plausibly win the east territory. Now let me. Let me go. Step back. In a normal season, neither Orlando nor Atlanta would be in this tier in a normal Eastern Conference season. Orlando's too young, too unproven. Has not had a top 20 offense in the NBA since 2012, which is absolutely insane to go that many years with a bottom 10 offense in the NBA. I have called them the Joe DiMaggio of crappy NBA offenses. And Atlanta is like, it's Atlanta. Like I can have that much faith in the freaking Hawks. I know Quinn Snyder's glasses are cool and Trey Young hits floaters. And they did some cool stuff in the off season. The there's still a team of like, mismatch. They got a rookie starting, they got some veterans. Who is their backup 5. If Kristapsingis gets hurt and all of that. But this is not a normal year. Michael Pina. This is not a normal year. They're. The Celtics are gone, the Pacers are gone, The Bucks are iffy and the Sixers are the Sixers. And so there's this just void of a proven championship level team. There have been years in the Eastern Conference where there have only been two teams that you could put in this category. But for most of those years, one of those teams in the last 15, 20 years has had LeBron James on it and been kind of a super team. Like a proven lockdown championship contender. That's not the case. The Knicks just made the conference finals for the first time in 25 years. They had bench issues that they kind of addressed. We'll get to that. And they fired their coach. Do we trust the New York Knicks? Maybe probably the Cleveland Cavaliers. Oh, good. Congratulations. Another fantastic regular season of lots of wins. A another disappointing postseason flame out. You know, two years ago, two. Now three seasons ago, I guess it was the Knicks bum rushing them out of the playoffs. This season it was the Pacers on the backs of an incredible comeback in game two. Boom. Four, one in between. You forgive the ones of the Celtics because they were underdogs and they were overmatched. But look like you can't sit here and tell me, well, no brainer. Cleveland Cavaliers, NBA Finals team. How about you make the conference finals first? So those are my four. Where do you want to start?

[Michael Pina]

Well, I'll start by saying that the Atlanta Hawks, including them in that first tier, going back and forth on Whether or not I should or, you know, not to spoil or step on anything but put them in my next tier was the most time I spent on anything in this entire exercise. I applaud you for venturing out on that limb with the Hawks. I had a few too many questions when I really was kind of burrowing into their roster and just who I could rely upon throughout a long playoff run. But I do love everything that they did during the off season. I love the three point shooting that they added. That was a clear priority for their new front office. So let's talk about the Hawks. I mean, it's a really fun, fun team.

[Zach Lowe]

Here's the case for putting the Hawks in this tier. Something wild is going to happen. It always does. The Pacers just happened. Very few people expected the Pacers, even as they were surging up the east, to come within one game of a championship. I don't think the Hawks have that level of connectivity and toughness in them to do that, but it's just too pat to be like, well, it's the Knicks and the Cavs and that's it. We can just pencil in the conference finals that just. They may well get there, but it's seldom that clean. Something wild is going to happen. Orlando making the conference finals does not strike me as super wild. The Hawks would be wild. You know, they did make the conference finals in 2021, but a lot of people poo poo that. Let's here's the case against the Hawks. Is Trae Young a winning player at the highest level? Debatable. Trae Young is also up for an extension. Are the Hawks just going to play that one out? I kind of think if you ask me what the most likely outcome is with that right now, I think the Hawks just kind of play that out and let it get to unrestricted free agency. How's he going to react to that? They're starting. Five barely played together last year. Trey Young. Assuming it's Trey Young, Daniels, Risa, Shea, Jalen Johnson, who I think is an all star in waiting, and Onyeka Congo who made a leap at the end of last season. And it's a weird mishmash of like is there enough shooting in there with Daniels, Risache, Johnson at the 234 for a real contender or true contender, probably a little short unless one of those three guys makes a leap. Is a congloo ready to really anchor a Finals level defense? He's a little undersized. I know he made a leap. Blah blah blah. Ricochet is a second year player. Like, it's just. That's a lot of responsibility on a second year guy. The bench. Where's my Hawks depth chart over here? The bench. I mean, you know, they upgraded with Canard. It's interesting that they traded DeAndre Hunter primarily to give themselves the financial flexibility to upgrade the back seven of the rotation. And they also then traded everybody they traded for last season. Terrence Mann gone. Niang gone, Lavert gone. Not resigned, not traded, but just not resigned. And in their places, Canard, Nikhil, Alexander Walker. Poor Zingis. And after that, it's a little nerve wracking because am I counting on Mo Gay? Am I counting on Kobe Buffkin at all? Or is Canard Alexander Walker a signal that I'm not? Am I counting on Asa Newell? Yes, I can stagger Trae Young and Jalen Johnson as they were doing at the beginning of last season when they were both healthy so that Jalen Johnson can kind of be point forward when Trey's on the bench. They feel one guy away from actually earning their place in this tier. To me, particularly one front court they like, they love Moay. They started Mo. They're front office people and telling me for a year and a half, keep an eye on this guy. We kind of like him. They started him a lot last year and it's like if he just can't shoot at all, I, I don't quite know what we're doing here, but so they still feel one guy away to me, but they have the ammo to get that guy in trades if they choose to do so. And so in the end I was like, you know what? They also have the biannual exception and they're under the tax like they have and they have a trade exception. So they are, they have other things they can still do. So in the end I was like, let's get crazy. But you couldn't get that crazy.

[Michael Pina]

I guess for me, the pro plausible argument just centered so much around Jalen Johnson, who I love a lot. Average 19, 10 and 5. Basically before he had the shoulder injury that ended his season. He, he was a borderline all star at the time and someone who was starting to look like potentially the best player, most important player on the team. And I love the way he plays. I love how selfless he is. I like how it's this combination of feel and athleticism that can't really be taught. And he fits in so many different lineup constructions. So I just, I love everything about him. But I'm a little Weary, you know, looking at a little bit of the numbers and how Atlanta played offensively when Trey was not on the court with Jalen Johnson. You talked about them staggering, which they did a bunch last year, but the offense was still bad in those minutes. And I have questions about, you know, Kristaps Porzingis. You penciled in Onyeko Kongwu as the starting center, and I think that that's. That's probably how they begin the season. But Kristaps Porzingis is better, I guess, when healthy than Onyeko Kong Woo, I would say. And so I'm just interested in kind of how he fits in, how available is he going to be this season and throughout a playoff run. And I was thinking, like, not to get too granular, but I guess that's why we're here in a playoff run where Trae Young has to be on the court and, you know, teams are running pick and roll with, you know, getting Trae Young and Kristaps Porzingis engaged. Christingis is a very good rim protector, but just having him in a drop with Trae Young trailing a ball handler, it's a lot different for KP than the world he's coming from with Jrue Holiday and Derrick White and Jalen Brown in that role. And I just. It's just. It makes me a little queasy just kind of thinking about those scenarios in a playoff setting, and I just think they're too dependent on Trae Young. And I like Trae Young, but I think defensively, I'm just. He makes. It's worrisome. It's still worrisome. So he's one of the worst defenders in basketball. So if he can kind of bring it on that end and maximize his physical limitations, then I'd feel a little bit more comfortable. I just want to see it a little bit more. But I love every move they made in the off season, and I like how their team looks, and it wouldn't truly shock me if they made the finals, but I just. I can't. I can't put them in that tier with Orlando, New York and. And Cleveland right now.

[Zach Lowe]

There's also the issue of who's the backup center if Porzingis gets hurt. Yes, when Porzingis gets hurt, I. I get your. You know, the concerns on the defense are. I mean, a lot of this is me betting on Trae Young responding to being in a contract year, potentially for the whole year the right way, which we started to see signs of last year. I thought he tried harder on defense than he had ever before. I realize that is, you know, not the highest bar to clear, so to speak. I and I've recited this stat many times. It's interesting to me, maybe not to the world, but to me that he set more ball screens last season than in his entire prior career combined. That shows, you know, just baby steps of he's never going to be Steph Curry. No one's ever going to be Steph Curry moving and flitting around here and there. But just be a little more active and a little more varied style that helps unlock Jalen Johnson, who can do a lot of stuff in inverted pick and rolls with Trey. I just keep evolving inch by inch by inch that way. And there's something here. But you're. I mean, there are tons of questions. I didn't mention Vitcre. Che, by the way, you could be another solution to sort of when Trey is on the bench has been solid for them. I get it. I do think they're a guy away, particularly in the front court. Like the front court rotation of it's funny you mentioned Jalen Johnson. He's like the guy that I'm least worried about on the team. I think he's going to be awesome. I'm a little worried about their collective shooting. Sure. He's part of that. I think he's going to be awesome. And when I say front court, I mean fours and fives. Johnson, Akongu Mo, Gay, Porzingis. They just need one more guy there. Asa new will see what he brings as a rookie. But look, it also could go completely south where they get off to a bad start, Trey's unhappy and they go the other way and tried to trade him. So, yeah, I get why you can't put him in this tier. It's July. I got wild. Let's talk about the Knicks in the Cavs because I don't want to short shortchange them. Who do you have more faith in right now to make a three to win three playoff series and get to the Finals? If you had to pick one, who do you have more faith in?

[Michael Pina]

I think I have more faith in. I like the Cavaliers more and I just. That's the team that I have the fewest questions about. And that was kind of how I was gauging this whole process. Like how many questions do I have about the team and for Cleveland, I mean, there is one that is very big and it's existential is just how will they respond to, you know, a psychologically damaging playoff exit against the Indiana Pacers in round two. That's a pretty big deal. I. They basically are bringing back the same team with Lonzo Ball in for Ty Jerome. And I like that, that, that swap. I think that Lonzo Ball, if he's able to stay healthy and can be a little bit more mobile than he showed last season, that he's a perfect fit pretty much anywhere. But particularly on this Cleveland Cavaliers team that's just so selfless and three point shooting heavy and all that sort of stuff. But I think my number one, my number two question is just, is this the year that Evan Mobley becomes the best player on the team? And what would that even look like? Are they going to be able to give him the ball in the fourth quarter with five minutes to go and say get us a bucket of a close game? Like that's, that is kind of the next step of his evolution, I think. And I'm interested interested to see how he, how he kind of takes a step forward offensively for this team because I think just him becoming the best player is the Cleveland Cavaliers taking the next step that they need to.

[Zach Lowe]

They're going to have the most wins in these. If they're healthy, they'll be, they should and will be the number one seed. Darius Garland was injured and a shell of himself in the Indiana series and in the playoffs as a whole. Didn't even play in the, for part of the Miami series, which was not even a real series. I mean, that was a freaking walkover. More on the Heat later. They are, by any reasonable analysis, the correct answer to my question of who you should have the most faith in. I think you actually nailed it as Donovan Mitchell. It's hard. He's awesome. Like he was a. Did he make first team all NBA this year? I think he did. If he didn't, it was close, whatever. It's hard to see him ascending another level, especially in the playoffs where he just balls out every single time. I mean, every, every playoffs, he's just, even, even if he misses some shots, he's always ready for the moment. He always steps up. He always steps into the spotlight. Garland, let's assume better health. To me, Mobley, as you said, is, is the wild card because if you talk to people within the team, they think he has is like 50% of where he could get to offensively as a passer, as a shooter, as a scorer. And I don't know if you want to frame it as, you know, like when he becomes the best player on the team. It was closer last year than I think people Thought like I had him flirting with that first team all NBA spot for a while before I put him second team. And you know, with the infrastructure is just there. They know how to play Kenny Atkinson system. They have a lot of shooting. Lonzo will help. You're not concerned at all that cryptocurrency mogul Tristan Thompson is not currently on the team? That's not concerning to you?

[Michael Pina]

That didn't make my notes. I wrote 21 pages of notes for this. This pod and that Tristan Thompson's name is not. Did not appear, unfortunately.

[Zach Lowe]

And yet, weirdly, Michael, my answer to my own question is the Knicks and I. And I can't even, I can't even explain why I don't really care that they advanced another round than Cleveland. It's not because of that. It's not even because they upgraded the bench with Clarkson and Yabuzeli and particularly Yabu Selle I think could be a valuable piece for them. It's not even because there's like nothing to worry about with the team. Like, is Mitchell Robinson going to stay healthy? He was essential in the playoffs. He wasn't just like this luxury item come in and spot Cat 10 minutes. He was like, we can't win without this dude destroying people on the offensive glass and protecting the rim at full throttle. Like the speed, the arms, everything. They fired their coach and then they called everyone in the league, just anyone who would answer the phone. Use your coach available? No. Okay. Is your coach available? No. It was embarrassing. It was embarrassing. Sorry. Like Billy Donovan. Let's cycle. Keep cycling down. Billy Donovan of the play in Bulls. You available? No. Okay. They can spin it any way they want. My, my theory, by the way, is that they really thought the Jason kid thing was going to be in play and all of the other stuff was window dressing to that. And then it wasn't in play. And then they got Mike Brown. Mike Brown's a good coach. Like Mike Brown. I ask you this. Is he. Is, is he demonstrably superior as a tactician to Tom Thibodeau? Who, by the way, you know, I don't, I don't want to relitigate the tips thing. He, he, he's Tom Thibodeau. He's always going to be Tom Thibodeau, for better or worse. He's been always pigeonholed as a defensive coach, even as his offenses for a lot of his career have been just as good as, as his defenses. And it's because his offenses, even when they're good, are like completely unsexy. Offenses, they're like low pass, low turnover, high offensive rebound. I call it the Thibodeau battering rim. And it doesn't look great. It can look like the ball is stalling out and it's just Jalen Brunson and four dudes watching Jalen Brunson. Some of that is. Some of that is probably flawed and predictable and uncreative and minimizing of the other four players on the team and their talent, some of that is somewhat by design because it's a low risk offense and that's how Tibbs wants to play. But, man, they walked down the Celtics playing that way. They're up 31 legit up 31 on the Celtics before Tatum gets hurt. You can chalk the first two games up to the Celtics choking and shooting just a freaking hail of insane bad judgment threes. And it was part of that. But there's something to how the Knicks played under tibs of just walk them down, walk them down. We got a closer. We're a tenacious defensive team. We don't make a lot of mistakes. There's something to that. And I think if you keep some of that DNA and infuse it with a little bit of freshness, a deeper bench that will actually get used and a little bit more offensive creativity. I understand. Like, is Cat a five? Is he a four? How do we. How do we rejigger the rotation to protect him on defense? Is he going to take it? I understand all that. There's something in the DNA of this team that I like and I think translates to the playoffs. I don't know, ma'. Am. I don't know. Maybe MSG just seduced me. I don't know.

[Michael Pina]

You know, I wrote a column when they fired Tibbs and I didn't really agree with the move. I didn't think that he was the problem or the reason that they lost in the Eastern Conference final.

[Zach Lowe]

By the way, and I've remiss for not saying this in previous podcasts. A guy caricatured as refusing to adjust. And yeah, he didn't play the bench until everyone shouted him to play the bench. And Delon Wright and Landry Shamba, by the way, they only have 12 players on the team right now. 12 guys. They have to. They literally, by law, the NBA have to sign more players. I would keep my eye on Shamit. I would keep my eye on Brogdon, who both could be helpful. He did completely scrap their base defense in a way that flummoxed the overwhelming favorite Boston Celtics by Switching everything. So please continue on the Tibbs defense, because I'm here for it.

[Michael Pina]

Yeah, I mean, that was one of the things I was just going to say. One of the primary criticisms is that he was very. He's a stubborn, steadfast basketball genius. But in that series where it was one of the biggest upsets you'll see in the NBA playoffs, nobody picked the New York Knicks to win that series outside of New York City. And they're switching everything. And it's pretty successful. I mean, they had The Celtics shot 25 for 100 in the first two games from behind the three point line.

[Zach Lowe]

And by the way, they deserved to shoot 25, 400. I don't care how open they were, just on the shot judgment alone. They deserved it. They deserved it.

[Michael Pina]

Okay.

[Zach Lowe]

But congratulations on, Congratulations on winning the shot. The shot quality championship. Boston hang the banner. Banner 19. Shot quality championship 20, 25.

[Michael Pina]

So you're being a little rude, but so they. So I like what Tibbs did there, and I liked, I liked how he started to play more players. That was a good decision.

[Zach Lowe]

I think about what you just said, the sentence you just said, he started to play more players. And I don't mean this as an insult to you, but like, that's a sentence my daughter could say about the NBA. Be like, he's. It looks like they're playing more players, Daddy. I'm like, yeah, those are new players that they're playing.

[Michael Pina]

So when I, you know, it's like there were. There was clear discontent on the team with the amount of minutes that some player, I mean, Mikhail Bridges is someone who publicly stated that he was not happy with his role or just the amount of time he was spending on the court. And it's, it's a lot of wear and tear. And the other thing was that the Tibbs did was he changed the starting lineup and when everyone was kind of calling for him to do so by starting Mitchell Robinson, who you, you know, I'll second everything you said. He, he was so good in that series against Boston and throughout the entire postseason. And he's someone who is probably still in Joe Missoula's nightmares, keeping him awake at night, because that was a primary part of Boston's game plan was to make sure that Mitchell Robinson was just limiting his minutes, intentionally fouling him, getting him out of the game as much as they possibly could. So I liked, I liked Tibbs his postseason and didn't think he was there was anything wrong with him. That said, I do like Mike Brown as well, and Mike Brown should have probably never been fired by the Sacramento Kings and that organization is in just total disarray. He was one of the reasons that they kind of, you know, were able to look competent for the first time in this era. And I think that there's some things that he can do that Tibbs did not. And number one for me is I'm interested to see like Jalen Brunson. Will he have the ball as much as he did last season? Will Mikhail Bridges and OG Anunoby have more opportunity to make stuff happen? And you know, Jalen Brunson led the NBA last year in on ball percentage by a decent amount. He just. That's how they play. You talked about it. They're, they're boring. They are predictable in what they do. And I think that Mike Brown is someone going from, you know, when he spent time with the Golden State warriors to Sacramento. He can diversify the offense a little bit and you can play through like Carl Anthony Towns from the high post a little bit more. So I think I'm interested to see that, that aspect. I like their continuity. You also mentioned the three empty roster spots. One guy I would keep an eye on because I would like to get a little bit more depth in the front court is Trey Lyles, who I believe is unsigned. I'm not even positive about that, but I believe he is and he played for Mike Brown in Sacramento. Thomas Bryant is also unsigned. That's a big. Who hit a couple threes against the Knicks in the conference finals that, that ended their season. So I like New York and that's why they're in this, this tier for me. And it's going to be interesting to see just how Mike Brown kind of implements his style and makes his imprint.

[Zach Lowe]

Now I like the Trey Lyles mentioned because it, you know, retread coaches get a bad name retread like that's, that's a negative connotation. They can work when they land in the right job and the job becomes the sum of all jobs that they've had before. The sum of all their experiences, everything they've learned gets poured into the right set of players. And if the Knicks make the finals, this will be the case for Mike Brown. This will be the sum of all jobs. Everything that he took from the warriors culture, everything he took from coaching LeBron, everything he learned from the disaster with the Lakers, everything he learned kind of modernizing the Kings offense with Fox and Sabonis. Two man game all sort of coalesces in, in New York. And you mentioned Trey Lyles, like Trey lyles at the 5 was a big adjustment in that series against the Warriors. That was kind of a funky move by Mike Brown and it worked. I will always remember when he was the interim coach for a bit in Golden State when Steve Kerr was unable to coach because of his back stuff. The one thing that stood out that Mike Brown did, and I believe it was against the Blazers in, in the 2019 conference finals. I could be wrong about that was. No, I don't know. It couldn't have been because KD was hurt. It was some. Sometime in, in his run, there was a series he coached where he was just like, you know what we're gonna do? How about we just run the Curry Durant pick and roll every single time down the floor? Like, I know, like, this is not how Steve coaches, but I'm the coach now. We're just gonna do that over and over. And guess what? It was completely unstoppable. And I think about that in relation to the Brunson Cat pick and roll, which they did not run enough against the Pistons. Like, I just, you know, I'm optimistic. Let's do like a word on Orlando. We both, no brainer, put Orlando in this tier again. In a normal year, they would not be here. They have not proven enough. They have not proven it off offensively. They. They traded for Desmond Bain. Great move. Fits like a glove. Still have some questions about the bench, but I like the Tyus Jones edition. I think there's enough there in terms of like staggering the three best players on the team, Bane, Wagner, Banchero, that particularly in a playoff setting when you're not going to play 10 guys, I think there's going to be enough there on the bench between Black and Tyus Jones and we'll see if De Silva hits and we'll see how much Isaac can give. I like their backup centers. When healthy, there's enough there. Regular season, the offense could still get rickety. There's a big learning curve for everybody involved. But I just think, bottom line, they're talented, they're surging, they're young, they're on the rise, and they have a defensive identity that is really hard to play against. And I know it was a 41 series. I was impressed by how hard they played Boston in the first round despite a bunch of injuries, despite Franz Wagner with the hitch in his jumper. And by the way, if the hitch is still there, they're not going to be in this tier. They need Franz Wagner to actually hit the apex of his game. But again, it would be premature in a normal year. Something crazy is going to happen. This team is set up to be the something crazy team.

[Michael Pina]

Yeah, I love, I love Desmond Bain. I love just the fit there. I think that that was totally worth the swing with what they gave up to get him. Just one of the best three point shooters in the league. Really capable ball handler. I like the Tyus Jones signing a lot. This is a team everyone talks about, the three point shooting. They've also finished near the bottom of the league in assist to turnover ratio for the past three years. And you're bringing in one of the steadiest hands in basketball. Just a reliable low mistake floor general who can really shore up an area of need. And I think like primarily this is Paolo Banchero's time to be one of the three best players in the conference. Like that is totally on the table and obviously efficiency is the number one hang up. I think that what we could see is, you know, I think the comp that I've been thinking about is Cade Cunningham, where you know, people are down on him, he doesn't really have an ideal supporting cast, there's not a lot of spacing, etc. Paolo isn't the exact same type of player as Cade. He won't run 40 pick and rolls or whatever in a game, but he's going to be in more lineups with space and he's going to, you know, be able to set screens for Desmond Bain and roll into the pocket and make plays. He's going to just a lot of different things that he's going to be able to do. I think his efficiency will tick up and I think that there's a definite scenario where he is on a lot of MVP ballots at the end of the season.

[Zach Lowe]

That was the only note I had for Orlando. It's in big bold font on my notes. Over here is defend Bancaro. There's a lot of handwriting about the Bankero max contract which has the escalators to 30% that Chad Holmgren didn't get and all that. Also got a player option which is like suboptimal. I don't love the player option when you get everything, but it is what it is and I have probably been to a fault defensive of mid to non like non glamorous market teams just maxing out young players willy nilly. Like I probably the Raptors probably could have negotiated a little harder with Scotty Barnes, Orlando with Franz Wagner. You know, we've seen that in Houston and I've talked about That a lot with them negotiating a little harder than these other teams. And Bill was on that last summer about Franz and Scotty and I defended those teams probably too much. There's probably room for negotiations. And I heard a lot of like well, Paolo's inefficient, shoots a lot of mid range jumpers. Like he's not a number one guy. How are you paying him like a number one guy? Is he ever going to be a number one guy? And I'm like look man, I don't know what you all are seeing. This dude is awesome and I am more than okay paying him a max. I don't know if he's going to be, you know, a first team all NBA player at any point. He, I, I would actually probably lean toward. There's a season in there where he cracks it. But I know I watch this dude in the playoffs against the elite defenses with nothing around him, no shooting, no help, almost nothing reliable plus or minus a Franz Wagner game. And a lot of the Franz Wagner games are like 8 of 22. They're not like awesome games where he's being guarded really closely and he just shows up and shows up and shows up and makes a fair share of really hard mid range jump shots. Does he take too many of those?

[Michael Pina]

Sure.

[Zach Lowe]

He's also shown me he's a good passer, he's a good playmaker on the move as a screener and I think the more talent around him, the more he'll tap into those parts of his game. There'll be three or four mid range shots that are transitioned into better shots for him at the rim. Threes, passes, all of that. You don't give me all the Banchero stock like that dude is ready for everything. Anyway, this episode is brought to you by HubSpot. In the playoffs, extra possessions are everything. Same goes for growing a business. And HubSpot's customer platform gives you more chances to win Breeze. Their built in AI automatically takes care of marketing, sales and service tasks so you can game plan for growth. It's easy, efficient and most importantly, it's effective. Customers are cutting sales cycles in half and getting hours back each week. That's like turning those contested jumpers into clean looks at the rim. Visit HubSpot.comai to learn more. Next tier Are you ready?

[Michael Pina]

I sure am.

[Zach Lowe]

My next tier is called I don't. I just made up a name Best of the rest for the top six. So I've got four teams in, in my, in my tier one and so the next the Next most important thing is who avoids the play in. I have three teams in this tier. Detroit, who I think walks in, is the fifth best team in the east on paper, to me, anyway. Milwaukee and Miami, who I am unreasonably high on. And so that means in the next tier down, I've got Boston, Toronto, Indiana, a bunch of other teams. We'll get to the Sixers. The Sixers are the team in their own tier. It's just called the Sixers, and it includes the Sixers. But I have Detroit, Miami, Milwaukee. Let me start with Miami, because Miami is the team that I am just wildly out of place on compared to Vegas compared to expectations. They're over. Under right now is 38 and a half. Their odds to win the Easter, like, down there with Toronto and all of that. And. And I understand sort of, you know, why they had a disappointing season. Tara Rosier turned into an absolute zero for them. They don't have. I mean, if we ranked the Eastern Conference, do they have a top 10 player in the conference, let alone the league? I don't know if Tyler Hero or Bam Adebayo are in that conversation. And so I get. There was just sort of something desultory about them last year, just dull. And like, is this just all there is? Like, they just. They can't score at an efficient level. There's just no pathway to do it. And I look at their team and I'm like, I get all that. Let's just say our starting lineup is Davion Mitchell, Tyler Herro, Andrew Wiggins, with a year there under his belt or half a year in an offseason, you could go Jovic, Bam Highsmith. Bam. Where? Bam. If you want to do the double center thing, which was successful for them last year, let's just pencil in Jovic for whatever reason could be where could be anybody. Then I got Norman Powell for free, which adds a completely new dimension to my offense. I've got one of Highsmith and Jovic or whoever coming off the bench with where I've still got Hawkes and, like, you can write off Hakez after a disappointing second year. I wouldn't do that. Like, people do not develop linearly. There's sometimes ups and downs. I'm penciling in and up. You know why? Why not? I like Paula Larson. I like Yakachunas. What I see there is depth. I don't see a huge amount of upside. Like, I don't think there's like, oh, my God, The Heat won 51 games this year. I don't See that? I see depth, I see iq. I see an elite coach and I see a world in which that team depth is very powerful in the regular season. Coaching is very powerful in the regular season. We'll see how the Tyler hero extension talks go if they go anywhere. That could get dicey. I don't know really how that's going to go. He's got two years left on his deal at 31 and 33 million, I think. Oh, boy, that could hit the chemistry at some point if it doesn't go well. Fontechio, I didn't even mention Fontechio, who I think is like a good 8th, 7th, 9th guy in the NBA. I see depth there and I see a formula where this team, which has an over under of 38 and a half is 45 and 37 and gets the six seed, like, I just think they're better than Boston, who we're going to get to. I think they're better than Indiana. That has to not. Not qualitatively better. But I'm putting them in a tier above Boston, who I know you're down on and I think you're ahead of the curve on that. Indiana, who has to replace two starters, including the guy who defines their entire identity of how they played. And then, you know, Toronto, whatever, whatever. And Philly, we'll get to there. I just think Miami is going to be better than those teams. And Detroit, I feel like it. Does it need an explanation why Detroit is in this tier? Milwaukee, we can debate, but what do you think about my placement there? Who do we disagree on? Who am I? Who should be in this tier that isn't? Who's in this tier that shouldn't be in this tier?

[Michael Pina]

Sure. I mean, let's start. Let's start with Miami. I'm totally in agreement with you about the Miami Heat. I ranked all these.

[Zach Lowe]

Oh, man, I thought you were going to be like, I'm totally out on the Heat. They stink, they can't score. They're going to be the 25th best offense in the NBA, which they might be. I don't know.

[Michael Pina]

No, I, you know, I ranked all these teams 1 through 15 and then put them into tears and I actually had the Miami Heat number six. And for me, I'm betting on. I won't use the C word. I'm betting on infrastructure and much less choppy waters in a post Jimmy Butler unit.

[Zach Lowe]

The C word scared me a little bit. I assume you mean culture.

[Michael Pina]

That is the C word.

[Zach Lowe]

That's culture.

[Michael Pina]

Yeah, I did not think about that. Before I said it out loud, there's just. There are fewer distractions. There is no drama. This season is all about basketball. For an organization that is about basketball, I think that Eric Spoelstra has never won coach of the year, famously. This is the type of season where that could totally be in the cards for him. I am betting on Bam Adebayo to bounce back from his worst offensives or not worst offensive season, but just like, least efficient, most disappointing offense.

[Zach Lowe]

It wasn't great. It wasn't great.

[Michael Pina]

It wasn't.

[Zach Lowe]

It was not good enough.

[Michael Pina]

The migration in his shot chart, you know, he started to take threes. He dipped significantly in shots at the rim. A career low. 27% of his shots were at the rim. Three years ago, that was 50%, I think, you know, I think that the water will rise a little bit to the level there with him. And he was still really good defensively and the team was still really good defensively when he was on the court. Rebound well, get back in transition. That's Miami Heat basketball. I just. I love Norm Powell and it wouldn't shock me either if he was in the starting lineup. I don't know if that's something.

[Zach Lowe]

Could be. Absolutely could be.

[Michael Pina]

He's just. He's so awesome and he had such a good year. He just fits culturally with that. I used the C word there. He just fits as a hard worker who's no nonsense with what they're all about. And he's one of the best shooters alive, and he proved that last season. And he could have been an all Star and was just this, like. So he was so critical for the Los Angeles Clippers last year when they did not have Kawhi Leonard to start the season. And he was. You know, they had a lot of offensive question marks and him showing up pretty much every night and really scoring at all three levels in a way that he hasn't before. Not. Not the. Not a playmaker. He's not like, I think offensively he's comparable in certain ways to Tyler Herro, and there's a little bit of overlap there. He's not the playmaker at all. Yeah, Tyler hero is. That's not really his game. But he's. He's willing to sacrifice. He's willing to. His game can scale up a level. And I just thought that that was like the type of move that can save. That just like, saved their off season and allowed them to tread water a little bit. So I think that they're. I agree with you. They're not the Ceiling is not, you know, we're going to make a run to the finals like we did in 2023. That's not what this is. But it is. We are going to get back to we are a competent basketball team. We will not lose by 50 points in a playoff game. And yeah, I just, I like what they're about and I like their depth, as you mentioned, too.

[Zach Lowe]

Three quick notes, maybe four. I understand Davion Mitchell, like turned into a meteor shower in the play in and he's not going to shoot that way all the time. I still like the idea of starting the season with him in the starting five for his defense and his ability to play off the ball while hero handles the ball. But if Norm ends up starting, that's fine with me. Number two, the basketball gods would award the Heat minimum one more regular season win if they ditched the stupid court that says hardest, meanest, hardest working, whatever stupid stuff is written on the court that's worth a win. Just, I'm telling you right now, it's worth a win. I know Pat Riley may like the court. It's worth one win to get rid of it forever and we never have to see it again. Number three. I'm going all. Not, I'm not going all in on this, but I mentioned it on last week's podcast and Bill kind of had not listened to that podcast and brought it up preemptively yesterday with me. I don't think this is going to happen. Okay, let's be clear about that. I'm not reporting anything. I am just saying that there is a theoretical LeBron Dreams trade to Miami that kind of makes sense for both teams. You can go back and listen to my podcast last week, I think it was with Dan Woi where I talked about that. I think there's. There's just. You can build a deal that actually makes sense. And I only mention that again because the Heat were never in that first wave of teams. That came to the forefront when Lebron's. When Rich Paul released that statement about that was very. Not even cryptic. That evinced a little unhappiness with the Lakers, I think. Can I ask you, can I ask.

[Michael Pina]

You a quick question about that? If LeBron James. I would love to hear who goes to the Lakers in this Hypothetical, but if LeBron James is on the Miami Heat, are they in the first tier?

[Zach Lowe]

I think you got to take a look at it. If I'm sitting here saying the Hawks are in the first Tier, then yeah, LeBron plus Hero plus Bam plus anything left on the bench, I think you got to consider it in the first tier. But again, this is all fanciful. They just were. It was like Cleveland, Dallas, Golden State, New York, this and that. Like. Oh, Miami actually kind of makes sense.

[Michael Pina]

Sense. Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay. Enough, enough. Heat. Hashtag heat. Culture. Detroit. Any notes on Detroit being here?

[Michael Pina]

They are. They were number my fifth team.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay. We can put them aside. I did a Detroit deep dive last week. Love the Pistons off. Didn't love like the Pistons off season much more than Bill. We debated it yesterday. The Pistons are going to be fun. Any Milwaukee is my. Is my third team here. So that's seven. I'm up to seven now. So one of these teams is going to be in the play and I can't. They can't all fit in the top six. Look, Milwaukee actually kind of like their roster a little bit more than I thought I would when I actually just went down and looked at it. Kuzma can't be worse. It's just. It's not even possible for him to be worse. I think you can carve out like enough. Enough guard play between Trent, A.J. green, Hollins, Porter Jr. We'll see if they get anything from Jackson Jr. Again, whatever. The Giannis Miles Turner fit works. We've seen a version of it already with Brook Lopez. I think if you have to, you can play Giannis, Portis and Turner together. They haven't loved to play that way under Doc with the super big threesome, but you might have to. I thought Sims was a decent backup 5 for them when he was healthy. He's back. Hollins is all right. You know, Taurean Prince is still around, right? Cole Anthony. I thought getting him for free, I. I'm not sure I like penciling him into a starting job, but I think he'll help their bench and is the kind of just juice on offense that they need. Juice is a good word because the juice is not going to be worth the squeeze of waving and stretching Damian Lillard and just putting. Just digging the Hol even deeper to the point that you thought. You thought you'd hit the earth's crust and then you like chipped away at the crust and dug even deeper. But I do think as long as giannis gets you 70 games, this is a 45 to 48 to 49 on the high end win team and that's good enough to be in this tier. It might be good enough for the fourth seed in the East. If Giannis misses any significant amount of time, they're obviously toast. But he's that good. And I think there's just. Obviously they need more perimeter ball handling. They need more perimeter playmaking, all that. We all. We all know that. But I think this team's like, kind of just solid. Where do you. Where would you have them? You're pessimistic.

[Michael Pina]

Okay, can we backtrack a little bit? So I'm going to give you my second and my third tier.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, go. Just give me the tiers. Yeah.

[Michael Pina]

Okay. So my second tier, I called it the people's champion. That was just the Atlanta Hawks. And that's just. I don't really know exactly why I named it that, but it just felt right. Third tier.

[Zach Lowe]

By the way, I'm really bracing for, like, the hawk. Hawks going 30 and 52. Like Trey Young demanding a trade. The whole season going sideways. I'm like, I'm ready for. I'm just. Emotionally, I'm ready for it.

[Michael Pina]

So my third tier is called the middle class with a puncher's chance. And this was the Pistons, the Heat, the Sixers and the Toronto Raptors. My fourth tier is play inbound. And here is where I have the Milwaukee Bucks and the Chicago Bulls.

[Zach Lowe]

So let me just. Let me just be clear. You have the Raptors ahead of the Bucks.

[Michael Pina]

I do, I do.

[Zach Lowe]

Who else?

[Michael Pina]

Sixers, Heat, Pistons.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay, so I heat pistons I can get with. They're all equivalent to Milwaukee, the Raptors. Look, I get why you're high on the Raptors. Okay, I get it. And I have. In my play in tier, I have Toronto. And in parentheses, should I move them up as a note to myself, I get it. Starting five, a lot of talent in the starting five. Not a lot of fit, but a lot of talent. Two seasons ago, the quartet, the much ballyhooed quartet of Quickley, RJ Barrett, Scotty Barnes and Jakob Poe, they were plus 65 in 234 minutes two seasons ago. In the 2324 season, they were minus 29 in 140 minutes. Last year, the difference is, two seasons ago, they were surrounded by a legit two guard and Gary Trent Jr. And last season, it was just sort of a morass of whoever was out there. And I get that you can pick any two. I don't know how you would stagger. I don't even know what the ideal staggering methodology is of quickly. Barrett, Ingram, Barnes. And Ingram's a clear talent upgrade. Whatever you think of his contract extension, in his game, he's an infusion of something talent wise into the Raptors. I don't know who should play with who of those four guys. But like you can keep two of them on the floor, which minimizes the fact that your bench is just sort of a. Just a group of complete wild cards including Colin Murray, Boyles and a bunch of shooting guards who may make it, may not make it. I'm still optimistic about Grady Dick. I don't know what to make of Jacoby Walker. I don't know what to make of Ochak Baji. I get the optimism. I just, I think there are just so many questions about fit style coaching bench that Giannis alone to me puts Milwaukee above Toronto. But make your respective cases for the Raptors and against the Bucks.

[Michael Pina]

Yeah, I think that first of all for like an exercise like this, the perception of the Toronto Raptors so much has been talked about with how much this team costs and them having the ninth highest payroll in the league and spending more money than the Nuggets or the Thunder on their basketball teams.

[Zach Lowe]

And this isn't about that. I don't care.

[Michael Pina]

This is not exactly not about that. We're disentangling that. It's also about a little bit the fact that they won 30 win 30 wins last season and they had 30, 30 wins last season and they have not won a playoff series since the bubble. So it's just a lot of bad things happening with the Toronto Raptors of late. I'm higher, I think generally on Scotty Barnes with more talent around him than a lot of people. I'm higher, I think than just about everyone who watches NBA basketball, on Brandon Ingram, than pretty much everyone. And I understand why people are down on him and have been down basically since like the Team USA World Cup FIBA situation where they finished fourth and he was just a total no show. And it was what made all the.

[Zach Lowe]

Like which is what made all the fake trades to Golden State so funny. It's like, hey, they, yeah, like Steve Kerr lived this one and it didn't go great.

[Michael Pina]

I think he is just a very good basketball player all around and I would not like necessarily paid him under $20 million over the next three years. I also think that under 25% of the cap, which is will be in the last two years of that deal and the last year as a player option is like perfectly serviceable and fine. I think he's a like top notch shot creator. He's someone who has shown in the past an ability and a willingness to hit threes, hit spot up threes, he can finish at the basket.

[Zach Lowe]

Really. I love that you're talking yourself Into Ingram is going to go back to shooting eight threes a game now. I love it where I can't wait for the first game where it's like, oh, pump fake one dribble in, jab step. I can't wait.

[Michael Pina]

I could absolutely be like naive talking about this. And I understand also all the questions that people have about three point shooting and they were not a good three point shooting team last season. I also like the steps and the strides that RJ Barrett made as a playmaker last year and the ways that they utilized him. And I think that you can still do that this season and I think he will shoot the ball better. He's a better shooter than he showed last year. Quickly is really important here and missed 49 games last year and like 10 of them were for rest which led the league.

[Zach Lowe]

Are you sure R.J. barrett's going to shoot it better than he did last year? 35% on threes, 52% on twos. Career 34.5% on threes, 48% on twos.

[Michael Pina]

I am confident that he will get better some of the best looks of his, of his career next year. With Brandon Ingram and Scotty Barnes on the court, I feel like those are willing, really smart passers. And I think that spotting up or coming off motion, I think he, I think he can be a pretty good outside shooter. And as someone, at least, at least he's someone is more to me it's like yeah, the three point percentage will be what it is, but do you have gravity? And I think that you people will not want to leave RJ Barrett alone wide open. So we'll see. I again, I could be totally wrong about the Toronto Raptors. I get that the lot of questions on the bench. I am higher on Agbaji and Grady Dick I think and Grady Dick in particular is like someone who can do stuff with the ball beyond being a spot up shooter. I'm excited to see how that kind of plays out. But I just, I like Brandon Ingram and I like, I think that this team has like more real NBA players on it than the Milwaukee Bucks. But we can now transition to the Bucks if you want.

[Zach Lowe]

But you know, here's my thing with the Raptors, okay. They're over under 37 and a half on fandom. Looking at it now, you know, I was thinking about this team because I read your column this week on the Ringer and I was like he's going to be higher on the Raptors than me. I know and I don't mind like I think 37 and a half sounds right to me. Like I don't think this is like some poop team that's going to be bad. I just look at their roster and I look at their statistical profile and I asked this question, I framed it to myself like this. What are they going to be good at? Like what, What's. Are they going to be an elite defensive team? Are they going to be an elite offensive team? And I could see them getting to the end of the season with like the 16th best offense. I'd actually say like the 19th best offense and the 14th best defense. And to me that equates to like. I just, I have a hard time seeing a strongly above.500 team out of this group. I like 41 and 41 is reasonable to me. I might take the over on 37 and a half, but I can't put them in like a 45, 48 win tier which to me get hat you got to get to to be in my next tier. Now you're going to tell me why you can't put Milwaukee there. So the floor is yours, man.

[Michael Pina]

The Milwaukee Bucks. I guess I'll start with some nice things. They have Giannis at Dentokounmpo.

[Zach Lowe]

No, we don't go right to the mean things. Just go right. I said all the nice things. I said unless you have a nice thing that I didn't say, go right to the mean stage.

[Michael Pina]

No, I think like they led the NBA in 3 point percentage last year and they brought a lot of those shooters back. Gary Trent Jr. Torian Prince. They have AJ Green surrounding Giannis with three point shooting. Smart. That's what you should be doing. That's great. I think that this is just like a total shit show when Giannis is on the bench. Like where is anything happening offensively?

[Zach Lowe]

Bobby Portis on the low block, baby.

[Michael Pina]

Let's go.

[Zach Lowe]

You like Cole Anthony? Bobby Portis can't carve up benches for like six minutes.

[Michael Pina]

I like the Cole Anthony signing. That's fine. But like they lost Damian Lillard and Damian Lillard average, like he was average 26 per game. He's launching nine threes. He's Damian Lillard. He made an All Star. It was an all Star last year. Like I don't think they've come close to replacing that production. And when Giannis was on the bench and Dame was on the floor last year, their offense was just like about league average. So I think that there's going to be like a cliff that they fall off of. I would have, I would Feel way more comfortable about this team if they brought in a steadier hand. Like. Like Chris Paul or Marcus Smart or, like, I just.

[Zach Lowe]

First time Marcus Smart and steady have been used in the same sentence for eight years.

[Michael Pina]

Completely fair. But you know what? Like Kevin Porter Jr. I know that he shot the crap out of the ball in Milwaukee last season. I think he's just one of the worst decision makers in basketball. When he was in Los Angeles before they traded for him, he was just an absolute mess. And this is just not someone who I fundamentally would love to shepherd offense through a season of Giannis prime. And, you know, the Kyle Kuzma can't be worse argument doesn't really do it for me. I'm sorry. Like, I just. I don't think he's a winning. He's been a winning player for some time now. So I just. I don't, like. I don't think that there's a lot of, like, NBA, like, not NBA talent. There's. They're talented pieces. I just. I'm looking around at the rest of the conference and, like, I think you need depth. I think you need, like, some ability to diversify what you do on a nightly basis, and they just, like, don't have it.

[Zach Lowe]

And it's all. It's all fair. Like. And again, I'm sliding them in at, like, 6, 7. And I realized that, I mean, first of all, Milwaukee, that. That's. Their fans are probably, like, that's optimistic. I'm like, you know, six, seven is like, whatever. And obviously, there's a massive downside, like, if Giannis gets injured for any stretch of time or if they start.

[Michael Pina]

Oh, it's over.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, if it were.

[Michael Pina]

If they.

[Zach Lowe]

Or if they start 10 and 18, and Giannis decides, you know, this is. This isn't working. Like, like, that's. Obviously, it's over for the team at that point, too. So there's a. There are downsides here. Okay, can I go to my next tier? Because this. So I have New York, Cleveland, Orlando, Atlanta, and then Miami, Detroit, Milwaukee. I have the Sixers in their own tier because we all. I don't think we need to belabor this. Like, they're just impossible to project. They still haven't resigned, Grimes. I think they will. And there's something. My only rule with the Sixers was I cannot put them in my plausibly make the Finals category, because to me, it is now implausible that I could ever see this team with Joel Embiid and Paul George Click, who mysteriously, some. At some Point had surgery again. Like, actually coming together in winning three playoff series, even in the Eastern Conference feels just implausible to me at this point. So I just put them in their own category. Could they get fourth in the regular season? Sure. Could they win around? Absolutely. Could they go to. Could they be 11th? Absolutely. So they're just in their own. Where did you have them?

[Michael Pina]

Seventh, right above in, like the. What's the name of this tier that I got here? The middle class with a puncher's chance. And I like, yeah, it's like, can Joel Embiid stay healthy? Can.

[Zach Lowe]

No, no. I'll tell you, he can't. Like, yeah, like. So I don't. I mean, that doesn't mean he's not going to be healthy at some point in the playoffs. But to. The idea that they can win three playoff series to me has crossed the Rubicon from, hey, maybe if everything goes right to implausible. My. My second from the bot. Can we just do the bottom tier and just get it over with? My bottom tier has three teams. Does your bottom tier of three teams.

[Michael Pina]

Yes. Yes.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay. Washington, Brooklyn, Charlotte.

[Michael Pina]

Yes.

[Zach Lowe]

Charlotte's the most interesting of those. I will do. We can do those teams another day. I don't think that there's really, you know, any Charlotte would have some, like, could they get to 37 wins? Kind of upside. If I had. If they had any center that I would like to give NBA minutes to. With apologies to Musa Diabate, who hustles and gets lots of rebounds. That is good in a bit. Roll. And any road map that I could see anywhere to not being one of the eight worst defenses in the NBA. I just see no pathway for them to be a competent defense at all. And I think they are still looking at the long lens. Washington and Brooklyn, we know what they're doing. Washington has a nice collection of players. Brooklyn has a collection of players. Done. That brings me to my play in group, which again is below Miami, Milwaukee, Detroit, I guess in theory below the Sixers, because I have the Sixers in some mysterious floating purgatory tier. This last group is Indiana, Boston, Toronto and Chicago. Toronto, we have addressed Chicago. I don't even think we need to address. Like, they're just here. Congratulations. You have made the same tier. There is an upside where they punch up and win 45 games. There's a downside where they fall apart with all their nondescript wing players and win 36 games or 34 games. I just don't see any other place to put them other than in this tier. Boston and Indiana to me are the interesting pivot points in talking to people. I am more pessimistic about both than most people that I talk to, I think. Let me look at the Celtics. Over. Under is 43 and a half. So Vegas is starting to catch up with what I, what I see in the Celtics roster. Indiana is 38 and a half. So Vegas is really caught up with Indiana. I'm down on both of those teams. Let's start with the Celtics. I just don't think people other than you, because you kind of wrote this, have actually looked at the Celtics roster and seen like who's on the team. So they lost from their rotation. Jason Tatum to injury, Drew Holiday, Christoph Sporzingis, presumably Al Horford and Luke Cornett. And in return for all that, basically got Anthony Simons and a bunch of minimum level free agents that no one's ever heard of. Is Anthony Simons beyond the team when the season starts? I don't know, it seems like maybe, but so. So let's just pencil in this starting five. Derrick White. Awesome. Everybody loves Derek White. There should be a blog called Everybody Loves Derek White. Are there still blogs even? I don't think our blogs even a thing. Anthony Simons just because Jalen Brown. Awesome. Great player, all NBA level player, all star. Is he ready for this without Jayson Tatum full time? I think he probably is. I don't know how the efficiency and the playmaking is going to look, but it's something like it might be ugly in games, you know, and then I just penciled in like George Niang and Xavier Tillman because I don't know what else to do. And off the bench I've still got Peyton Pritchard and it's like Sam Houser's here, Gonzalez, Shireman, Keita Garza, Minot. Like it's just a. Like Missoula will find a way to make the most out of these guys. But the depth chart after literally like White, Brown, Pritchard and whatever you think of Simons crumbles to sand so fast. And being that top heavy and that dependent on guys with minimal to no NBA track records is a recipe for a wildly below expectations regular season. I don't really see a case for Celtics optimism. I just don't see it. And so that's why they're in this tier.

[Michael Pina]

I have the minutes here with the Indiana Pacers that I called a gap year from hell. I think that the Boston Celtics are just, I mean fundamentally they should be motivated to lose games and develop players that's what they should be trying to do. They should not be trying to win and throw miles on Derrick White's body on Jalen Brown's body. I look at the roster, the front court is completely non existent. I have no idea what their friends.

[Zach Lowe]

It's really hard to believe when you look at it and it's just like whoa, it is. They signed nobody.

[Michael Pina]

No. And it's, it's a actions over words. Are you like seriously trying to win games with like who is their starting center? Kato?

[Zach Lowe]

I don't even know. I only know two guys that are starting for sure. Like if you told me they decided to bring Simons off the bench or Simons isn't even on the team, I'd be like okay sure, whatever. But the Pritchard Simon's back like White, Brown and then who the hell knows. I just don't think. I think people have internalized who they lost and why they lost them apron wise and that Tatum's hurt. I just don't think like people have actually looked at the roster and it's, it's like, it's, it's very, very shallow.

[Michael Pina]

It's very shallow and also could get worse. I mean like they are $20 million about over the tax and they have every reason to get under the tax and will. I would, I would bet that they will. And so like who like who does that mean leaving the team? It's like Simons probably you have. We'll see about Hauser and Yang and it's just, it's just going to get worse before it gets better for sure. But like adding the, the knee.

[Zach Lowe]

J.D. davidson like he's nice.

[Michael Pina]

He'll be getting minutes. He'll be getting play like he's got.

[Zach Lowe]

He's interesting. Jordan Walsh is interesting. Like these guys might be playing like 25 minutes a game. Like yeah, what are we like I just don't, I don't. I'm not saying they're going to be like a 25 win team. I'm saying like top six is I can't get there 43 and a half. I would take the under probably on that. Like I just don't see a big like White and Brown are awesome and I think that's the case is that both of those guys at full health for 80 games are 2 and this is going to sound like a little crazy for Derrick White. Two like borderline third team all NBA players. Like that's how good Derrick White is. He'll never make an all NBA team because he doesn't Score enough, but that's how good he is impact wise. And Jalen Brown has made all NBA before.

[Michael Pina]

Can I just say though about those two, like you're removing Jason Tatum from the equation.

[Zach Lowe]

It's a whole different world now.

[Michael Pina]

Like their, their playmaking responsibilities, their scoring responsibilities completely change.

[Zach Lowe]

They're also removing a lot of shooting at the four and the five. I mean the Yang can shoot, but like the five out thing is, unless Garza is playing 25 minutes a game at the center. At center is going to be very hard to replicate. And if Garza is playing 25 minutes a game at center, I'm not sure how you're getting stops exactly.

[Michael Pina]

I think that you can still lead the league in three point rate. And they've signed guys who will shoot threes. That's cool. But all of them are bad defenders. Going from Jrue Holiday to Anthony Simons is a massive shock to the system for your defense. And so I think that let alone like removing Jayson Tatum, who is so good at so many different things, he's a superstar who scores and makes plays for others, but he also just does so many little things. He's an excellent rebound. He's one of the best rebound rebounders on the team. He can guard all five positions. He will set ball screens. He like he's the initiator of their offense. He's the skeleton key. He's so just like removing him from all the different lineups that he was able to fit in will just dramatically just damage them. And to speak nothing of Horford, Cornett, Porzingis, Holiday, these are really good basketball players and they are no longer on the team. So yeah, I think that my top point is that they have every incentive to shed more salary. They have every incentive to lose and try to get some like magic luck in the lottery. And that's kind of what this season should be all about for the Boston Celtics, I think.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, you're. There is a world now they clearly as long as White and Brown and Pritchard, you know, with Missoula, they're going to try to compete, right? Yeah, I think that that's the mandate from Brad Stevens. Like there's no interest in like a tank year, but like there have been teams where they go in with the best of intentions and the season goes sideways on them often due to injuries and then they change course. There's a, there's a universe in which that happens to the Celtics, the Pacers, this is going putting them here below Milwaukee, Miami, Detroit and in this like you're sorry you're a play in team tier is going to feel disrespectful for a team that just made the finals and just not only made the finals, but just lit the whole sports world on fire like a legit, inspirational, magical run. The reason we watch sports is for things like the Pacers clicking into something so much greater than the sum of their parts. Two of the main parts are gone and I just. And one, like I don't even know what they are without Halliburton. Like I. They'll do. They'll press, they'll play hard on defense. Nemhardt and Siakam will scale up offensively. Nemhardt will become the primary initiator. Siakam will become the number one option. Their pick and roll will be interesting. I just, just don't fundamentally know what the team looks like now without Halliburton. And you like project out there starting five. We know three of them for sure. Nemhardt, niecemith Siakam, who's the other guard is almost more interesting to me than who's the. Who's the replacement for Miles Turner? Because we know it's either going to be Jay Huff or Isaiah Jackson. You know, we'll see what Wiseman can give them. If anything, the other guard is like, do you. Do you go McConnell to get another point guard on there? I don't think so. I like McConnell coming off the bench. Do you go shepherd to just go sort of 3 and D shooting? I'm not sure there's enough playmaking on the floor in that scenario. I could see it. Do you go Jairus Walker for a bigger version of the same player? That feels like a big promotion. Do you go Matheran by default because he's the best combination of scoring, sometimes three point shooting, size, whatever. I have Matheran penciled in as the fifth starter there with let's just say Huff. And then off the bench I've got McConnell, Shepard, Walker, Toppin, whoever the backup center is. And you can go Siakam toppin like they still have depth. Like there's depth here of good. Okay. To good NBA players, guys who were just playing in the finals and in McCollum's in McConnell's place playing, playing really well. Walker's got something. He fell out of the rotation due to injury. He was on the fringes. Then he got injured for the finals. I just don't. I just don't know what the roadmap here is to the kind of offense and, and even without Turner was not a great defender. Anymore. But I like who's holding down the center position on defense. Like, I just don't. 38 and a half as an over under actually feels kind of dead on to me. I, I thought Vegas was going to be more optimistic about them. It's just hard for me to see this team being like a no brainer top six team. I, I and, and if you told me they scuffled to like 35 and 47, I wouldn't be shocked.

[Michael Pina]

Yeah, I mean the first sentence of my notes was this might be a little disrespectful, but I just think Furfy.

[Zach Lowe]

I forgot Furfy Furfield get chances this year.

[Michael Pina]

Dunk of the summer league. I think.

[Zach Lowe]

Oh my God.

[Michael Pina]

Yeah. I think when you remove Halliburton from the equation, like, you know, obviously maintaining the style of play that made them so special is just unrealistic and there's going to be a stylistic downshift that just takes so much of what made Indiana incredible off the table. And I think like, if I was trying to be optimistic, I would say that their defense could, could spike a little bit and be more competent and harder to penetrate for from an offensive perspective. But losing Myles Turner, it looks like those two starters is just such a double whammy for them at critical positions and in critical roles. So I just, I have so much respect for so many of the players here. I think it's one of the best coaching staffs in the league. But at the end of the day I kind of, I paired them with the Boston Celtics and called it like the gap year from hell. Because I also think that when push comes to shove they will be competitive and they have a lot of, you know, fiery personalities and guys who want to win on the team and they just made the finals. But it is probably in the organization's best interest to not be super good this year. And trading for their first round pick serendipitously with the New Orleans Pelicans and getting that back allows them to be pretty bad. And I think that that is okay for one season and then you get Halliburton back and everyone is in the mix and it's, you know, you try to kumbaya what happened last season next year, but, or two years from now. But yeah, it's like, I don't know how good this team can be without Halliburton and Miles Turner.

[Zach Lowe]

The guy that I'm almost most interested to see is Matheran because there was a time last season, particularly when Neesmith and Nemhardt were out and the team just didn't have an identity where you'd hear rumblings of like, he just doesn't fit the way the Pacers play. Like, he holds. He stops the ball, holds the ball. Not a great passer average. I'm looking now. He averaged 1.9 assists in the regular season, 0.9 in the playoffs. Defense up and down, better on. On ball screens, but up and down. And it was like, are they going to salary dump him? Is that going to be the salary dump to get under the tax? And then in the playoffs? Look, the passing is. Is still scattershot, to say the least, but there were games where he felt, like, essential to their team. Just the, the burst, the scoring, the physicality. And I'm interested to see can he direct his game more toward. I. I said several times, like, I actually have grown to like that he plays a little differently than the rest of the Pacers. I think it's a kind of curveball that they need. But I. I still like being a better passer and defender would be good for him and good for the entire team. Is he going to veer that way or is he going to be like, well, now they need me to score. Now I'm averaging. Now I'm going to try and average 20 a game. I. I just. Does he cement himself as a core Halliburton Pacer, or does he just sort of go for points? And the team is still kind of undecided about. I think that's interesting, but I think we have them in the right place. We hit everybody. We. I think we hit every team. Apologies to the Bulls. We didn't talk about you very much. I already did a deep dive on you. I think we hit everyone, right?

[Michael Pina]

We did. We did. I hope I wasn't too harsh on the Milwaukee Bucks. Their fans, they love me. And I wonder if their opinion will change after hearing this podcast.

[Zach Lowe]

Hey, it's all. It's all part of the game. Michael Pino, what else we got going? I'm going on vacation in exactly a week. What am I going to see from you between now and then? And I'll be reading. I'll be reading abroad.

[Michael Pina]

Yeah. You know, hopefully I will be not doing too much, Zach. We'll see. Hopefully my editor is not listening, but I would love to just lay down and read a lot of books. That's. That's how I like to spend my free time, with two young kids running around as well. So hopefully that's what I get to do.

[Zach Lowe]

I've got some books lined up for the euro trip. Michael Pina this week was you kind of reviewed the off season at some off season takes. I don't know if it was late last week, early this week. Go read [e-mail] thank you for your time. I will see you on the other side of vacation, my friend.

[Michael Pina]

Thank you Zach. This episode is brought to you by JCPenney. And if you've been to JCPenney recently. Yes, JCPenney, you'll know it's becoming the way to buying good clothes for prices that still make sense. They've got hidden gems for everyone and every budget with deals and rewards that actually make a dent. If you already shop JCPenney, you feel like you know a secret. But if not, it's time to ask. Wait, am I sleeping on JCPenney? Shopjcpenney.com Yes, JCPenney. This episode is brought to you by Slow Sticky Snoozy. They call these the dog days of summer, but Espolon, they don't do boring. Welcome to the mark days.

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[Michael Pina]

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[Michael Pina]

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[Zach Lowe]

All right, Mets corner, let's have some fun. Four game winning streak back and first in the NL East. John Jastremski of New York, NY of SNY. You're gonna answer my stupid baseball questions. Are you ready for Mets corner, baby Zach?

[John Jastremski]

First of all, I am honored to be on the show, number one. Number two, I know I have a very tough act to follow because you've had Sean Fennesion the last couple of weeks. We know he is this die hard, disgruntled in the weeds Met fan. I am not a Met fan. However, it is a major topic on my podcast. I talk about it on a regular basis. I talk about it all the time when I'm honestly after these games. So I think you got the right guy for the job. I'M ready to go.

[Zach Lowe]

We're not going to talk about who you're a fan of.

[John Jastremski]

No comment. Well, I have issues with them. We'll save Yankee Corner for another day, though.

[Zach Lowe]

I don't want to be Yankee Corner. Forget Yankee Corner. I don't want to be on that corner. I will say one of my good friends here, my daughter's best friend's dad, their whole family is Yankees fans, and they had a. An older daughter who graduated middle school. And I said, what do you. Can. Can I get you? She's such a sweet kid. So I'll get you a present. What do you want? And I said, who's your favorite Yankee? She's a huge Yankee fan. She loves, basically plays softball. She shout out Mia. She's a huge baseball fan. And she wanted Cabrera. What's his first name?

[John Jastremski]

Oswaldo Cabrera. That is a very interesting purchase that you had.

[Zach Lowe]

So I, I bought her an Oswaldo Cabrera T shirt. You know, the dark blue with whatever his number is on the back. And I went to the house and I knocked on the door and she was on the top of the staircase. And I threw it to her like it was a bag of flaming poop. I was like, I don't want this in my hand anymore. I don't want to see it. Get it out of my hand. It was very difficult for me, but she has worn it a lot, so I feel good. See, I was the bigger man.

[John Jastremski]

Well, I appreciate you doing that. I just hope you flung the T shirt the way I used to fling all sorts of newspapers when I delivered the Staten island advance for a long, long period of time in my life. I hope you had the property form, Zach. That's what I wanted to say.

[Zach Lowe]

And I didn't even take it out of the packaging. I was like, I can't even look at it. I want it out of my hands immediately. Okay. The mets have won four straight. Just swept the Angels. They are 59 and 44. They were at one point, 45 and 24 with the best record in baseball. And then went on a 3 and 13 skid where everything went to. And all the pitchers were injured. They are 11 and 6 in their last 17 games. So, like, like, what is this team? Is this a contender? Is this a sub? Like, to my dumb, uneducated ass, having watched them now more or less for the full season. Not every game, not all of every game, but enough. They feel like a team that's good. But, like, they just have never been, like, together enough for, like a lot of their 45 and 24 when they built up that record was they just like destroyed the Rockies and the White Sox and all these crap teams. They have never felt since then like a team where I'm like, yeah, I have a lot of faith this team can get like to the World Series. Can win a bunch of playoff series. They're good though. Like, what are they?

[John Jastremski]

That's baseball in a nutshell. In 2025 though, Zach. So I understand that argument. You want to tell me you have problems with the bottom of the met order that has come to life over the last few games?

[Zach Lowe]

Saving them. They're saving their asses right now.

[John Jastremski]

You can make that critique. The pitching kind of out kicked the coverage over the first two months of the year. And I think you were due for the inevitable market correction. I think you saw that in June and into July. But you just got Kodai Senga back. You just got Sean Mania back.

[Zach Lowe]

I like him. I've never seen him before. He strikes out a lot of dudes. We need a guy who strikes out a lot of dudes.

[John Jastremski]

Last year he made a tweak in his delivery watching Chris Sal with Atlanta and started getting a lot more funky and a lot more three quarters and his second half he was like a different pitcher. He went from being a guy who was pitching like an era in the high threes to low fours. Then all of a sudden he's pitching like Whitey Ford and Guidry circa 1978. I was like, how did the Mets do this with Shawmania? But what I'm getting at here is you're getting two major pieces back into the equation. You're also going to have a GM who in my opinion is going to be very aggressive at this trade deadline, knowing he's got Steve Cohen's wallet, knowing they got a window to win. I think they're going to approach the deadline much differently than they have the last few years. And baseball's mediocre, dude. So like, yeah, to answer your question, you're a contender. I don't care how many flaws you may have, the Dodgers are not as invincible as everybody's making them out.

[Zach Lowe]

They're going through it right now, right?

[John Jastremski]

Big time. They're having a ton of injuries on their starting pitching staff. Their bullpen is no great shakes. And I know they won the World Series and I know their lineup's amazing and I know they killed the Mets last year, but it's a five game series. This is. See, Zach, you're coming from. And I know NBA now Has way more parity and way more upheaval. And the sport has changed over the last few years. But baseball, every year, come playoff time, that's what you expect.

[Zach Lowe]

Just gotta get in. Exactly.

[John Jastremski]

So you may have your issues with the Mets, get into the tournament, get into the dance, and you're, you're in it to win it. That's the way I see it.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, but you want to get in with as much leeway for some, like, I don't even know how the playoffs work anymore. I know there's like, I don't want to be like the second wild card. Then you just be out immediately. So we got it. We first. Step one is we got to win this division. That would help, right? Like, that's a big one.

[John Jastremski]

I'm going to throw a wrinkle into that. I understand that point. And I think from like a conservative fan perspective, you'd say, wow, why would I want to play best of three in the playoffs? The Mets did that last year, worked out pretty well for them with Milwaukee, and then they took on the team that won the division and they beat him in four games. So I think when this new playoff format came out, my feeling was exactly the same as you. Now I'm kind of of the mindset where it's like, yeah, it's high stakes poker. Yeah, it's a little Russian roulette playing that best of three. But if you win it, all of a sudden the momentum you have is kind of help. Teams. Texas, Arizona, the Phillies, the Mets.

[Zach Lowe]

Just saying, Texas, Arizona, by the way, name of a bar I used to frequent in Hoboken, New Jersey. Just some bad times at Texas.

[John Jastremski]

I've been there as well. I've gotten carried out in a body bag.

[Zach Lowe]

I understand. I had some bad nights at Texas, Arizona. So Manaya is back, Senga is back. And yesterday against the Angels, some slumps got busted. Alonzo hit a home run, Lindor went 2 for 4. They just need like these. And Soto is still in a slump, but the top of the order. Seems the Lindor thing got concerning to me. Like once his average dip below.250, he was hitless in 31 straight up bats. He broke his toe and just like played through it. I was starting to get a little concerned. Should I be concerned? Is it? But then I, I know some people with dementia. Like this happens every year. He goes through. He goes through it, but like he was really going through it.

[John Jastremski]

So usually Lindor goes through these horrific stretches in April. That's always been his M.O. that he's a notorious slow starter that it takes him till mid May when the weather gets warmer, to really get going. And this year, he didn't have that terrible start to the year. He actually got off to a very, very nice start. He had a bunch of big hits. He had a bunch of big home runs. I'm not concerned about him. The player, I think he is now in a comfort zone. He's got his zen about him. The my girl thing at Citi Field, I think is the best.

[Zach Lowe]

It's the best.

[John Jastremski]

So, you know, I want to make fun of the Mets for it, but I'm jealous. Like, it's somebody that's going to Yankee Stadium on Friday. I wish there was a serenade. Sing along for somebody on my team.

[Zach Lowe]

It's the perfect song, too. It's not like a cool song. It's not. You're not trying to be cool. It's just like a fun, feel good, kind of corny song. But everyone loves it.

[John Jastremski]

It's a throwback. It's a classic. How can anybody hate on the Temptations? But. But Lindor. The reason I'd be worried, not the player, the foot, the toe, whatever it is, is it to a point where it's just going to limit him from being the guy he was last year where he was second in the MVP? He carried the Mets to the postseason. That game 161 he had down in Atlanta, that's one of the biggest hits in a regular season game I've ever seen from a New York met. I think that would be my cause for concern. Alonso. I have no cause for concern. Alonzo's a beast. Listen, the guy just wakes up, rolls out of bed, hits dingers, and now has Juan Soto hitting in front of him. So it's kind of changed the sort of pitches he's getting on a regular basis. He's pitching with runners. He's getting a hit with runners on base. I'd be a little bit more concerned. Durability helped Lindor than I would be with Alonzo. Jose okay?

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, Alonzo's awesome. He's now, I think, four home runs away from breaking Daryl Strawberry's record. Darryl Strawberry was my favorite player when I was kid. I was a Strawberry guy. Gooden and Strawberry were obviously the guys, but I just. There's something about Daryl Strawberry with the elbow up. I just loved Daryl Strawberry, so it's gonna be cool when he breaks it. And Soto is just like I was. I'm. I'm educated enough, even as just a sports fan, that I was never Worried about Soto. Like, the guys that good are just that good. He's fine. Lindor. It's so funny. My daughter just has gravitated toward Lindor. She loves him. She's 10, loves Lindor. We went to one game, he turned like four double plays. He's got. His hair's poofy, he's got the song. She just loves everything about him to the point. It's so funny to watch games with her because, you know, we'll be watching the game and he'll. Lindor's strikes out again and he's over his last 26, whatever. And I'll be sitting there like, man, this guy's really got a hit. And she'll turn to me, she's like, daddy, don't be mean to him. He's trying, he's trying, like, don't be mean to him.

[John Jastremski]

He's doing his boy. He.

[Zach Lowe]

And so last. And so last night we're watching and he gets that RBI single to put him up 2, 1. And she's like, he busted his slump. He's ran in mommy. Lindor got out of his slump. I'm like, I love this little girl so much. She just loves Lindor and she loves Torrens. And you know why she loves Torrens? Of all the players to love? Because her favorite teacher ever, her last name is Torres. And so she's like, he's one letter away from Torres. I love Torrens. And so Alvarez comes up and you're gonna have to tell me if this Alvarez stuff, if I should be getting my hopes up that maybe this is a guy. And she's. And she's like, well, who's this Alvarez guy? Where's Torrance? And I'm like, well, this guy's like a highly touted prospect. He went to the minors, he had a million home runs, but he swings at everything. And they don't kind of trust him. She's like, well, I guess. I mean, I want him to be good, but I miss Torrens. This is how a 10 year old consumes baseball. So is Alvarez, like, is this guy a guy? What do I need to know?

[John Jastremski]

All right, first things first. This is exciting for me as somebody who has a two month old daughter. I really hope that I'm going to be able to go through, through this with her and she's going to be as crazy as your daughter is for watching all the sports and getting into it. This just sounds fantastic. As far as Alvarez, the guy was the number one prospect in baseball a couple of years ago and his first year he came up, hit a ton of home runs. Mets were out of. It was one of the bright spots of the 2023 season. Okay. Last year really put an effort in honing in and improving his defense. Did a great job of that. His offense suffered. He did not have a great offensive year. He got hurt. That said, if you go back to the playoff games, and your daughter would have liked this, because I was calling for Luis Torrence to actually play in some of those playoff games. The pitchers were so adamant, Zach, that they wanted to throw to Alvarez, that they felt comfortable with him, that there was a rapport, there was a rhythm. So even though Alvarez was having a crummy offensive postseason, Carlos Mendoza is like, I'm not making any changes with my catcher because my pitchers are comfortable.

[Zach Lowe]

Interesting.

[John Jastremski]

We're cool with that. We're going to rock with that. Fast forward to this year. Listen, Alvarez was rotten before he got sent down. He was terrible offensively. His defense had regressed, he was making mental mistakes, and the Mets humbled the kid. I mean, you're the top prospect in all baseball a couple years ago, and you're getting sent back down to aaa. You can handle that in one of two ways. You can sulk, you can pout, you can be a pain in the butt, or you can go down to Syracuse, work your ass off, do the very best that you can, and get your butt back to the big leagues and make an impact. Well, hit like 11 home runs in 13 games. Whatever it was in Syracuse, it was stupid. I get it. It's triple A pitching, but the guy was hitting Dinger after Dinger. He comes back, hits, basically, go ahead, hit on Monday, hits a homer on Tuesday, makes a couple of nice defensive plays. Zach, if he can be a plus catcher for the Mets, forget about top prospect in baseball. If he can be offensively a top half catcher, it completely changes the feel of the lineup because you're not nearly as top heavy. I think that's one of the big themes with the Mets. You know, they have the big four. Cohen called them the Fab Four. I love you, Steve. It's an awful nickname. They're the Beatles. No, no, no, no, no. Don't Met fans. Please, please do not refer to your four as the fat four. It's insulting to me.

[Zach Lowe]

Nimmo is the fourth one.

[John Jastremski]

That's what I mean. And I love.

[Zach Lowe]

I like Nimmo. Nimmo is like a good player. So again, I've checked out for a long time. I'm aware that he's been on the Mets his whole career, vaguely, where he's just like, rock solid. He's not spectacular. He's probably never made an all star team, right? But he's just like, I feel comfortable with a Brandon Nemo at all times.

[John Jastremski]

He's a pain in the ass to play against too, because he sees a zillion pitches. He gets on base a ton. He's moved off of center field. That was something that a lot of people were concerned about. It's like, oh, does his offense profile as well at one of the corner spots? And now he's hitting a lot more home runs and hits.

[Zach Lowe]

He's got 19 homers.

[John Jastremski]

He's had a terrific, terrific season. But you need to find answers in your lineup after that 4, 5 spot. And if Alvarez can do that all of a sudden, maybe get an average center fielder at the trade deadline and you figure out, okay, is it Beatty? Is it Mauricio? Was it Vientos at third base then? Zach, you're a contender, baby.

[Zach Lowe]

So speaking of contender, again, I know nothing about anything. Okay, just let me Preface that. Mets 59 and 44. Phillies 58 and 44. Brewers just won a thousand games in a row. 61 and 41. Cubs 60 and 42. Have this dude, Crow Armstrong, that is apparently lighting the world on fire, and.

[John Jastremski]

You gifted him for Javi Baez. It was a good thing you were out on the Mets at that particular point. Point in your life.

[Zach Lowe]

Wait, that's our guy.

[John Jastremski]

The Mets had Pete Crow Armstrong.

[Zach Lowe]

Oh, my.

[John Jastremski]

Traded him for Javi Baez. And.

[Zach Lowe]

Who'S Javi Baez?

[John Jastremski]

Well, he was on the Cubs, won a World Series with the Cubs, then played for the Mets for two months, hit a bunch of home runs, but was an absolute ass. He did the whole thumbs down to the crowd. He was.

[Zach Lowe]

Did you last Randall did the. Julius Randall before Julius Randall.

[John Jastremski]

It was worse than. Than Julius Randle. 100 times worse than Julius Randle. Huge story for the Mets. Major blowback. Well, he went to Detroit, signed a huge contract. He was terrible his first two years with Detroit. This year, though, Zach, Javi Baez and Pete Crowe Armstrong for the respective leagues. Both started in the All Star game. How about that?

[Zach Lowe]

And was. Was Pete Crowe Armstrong? Like, had he played for the big Mets at all? Was he always. But he was touted as like, we people knew this dude was going to be.

[John Jastremski]

He was a big prospect, and a lot of people thought he'd be a Wizard defensively. I think the surprise has been his offensive game. I don't think people around The Mets, or just people in baseball for that matter, thought he'd turn into an offensive player. That's like starting an All Star Game.

[Zach Lowe]

And was that team 20, 21? You said, was that team good enough to justify that? Kind of like, let's go for it right now?

[John Jastremski]

Absolutely not.

[Zach Lowe]

Did Stearns make that trade?

[John Jastremski]

No, he did not.

[Zach Lowe]

This is great. This is great content.

[John Jastremski]

This is what I'm here for. I'm here to enlighten. I'm here to inform you took a hiatus for a few years.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay, so my point was, Cubs have this great record. Dodgers are the Dodgers 60 and 43. Padres always hanging around, 55 and 47. Then I look at the AL, 60 and 42. Blue Jays, 60 and 43, Tigers, 60 and 42, Astros. That's kind of a big drop to your guys at 56 and 46. Is the NL better than the AL? Is the AL deeper than the NL? Is there any demonstrable difference between the two leagues? I look at the. I look at the records. I'm a little jealous of the American League teams that are like fourth, fifth, sixth in the American League.

[John Jastremski]

You should be. I thought going into the year wasn't even close. That's why people asked me, Zach, out of two New York teams, who would be more likely to get to the World Series? And it didn't necessarily mean that roster wise. I liked the Yankee roster more than the Met roster. But I looked at the nl and at the beginning of the year, I'm like, okay, the Dodgers are going to be a problem. The Phillies are going to be a problem. I thought the Braves are going to be good. Clearly they're not. They stink, so you can cross them off. But Padres, Cubs improved. The team that's stunning me is the Brewers. I can't believe the brewers are doing this. They're a really smart organization. They know how to develop pitching. But they run their differential. Kind of proves, hey, they got something going. The American League. Detroit is falling on hard times. But I like their team. I like their manager. They got the best pitcher in baseball in School Bowl. The Astros. I can't believe they keep doing it. They lose guy after guy, they lose Bregman, they lose Tucker, they lose Garrett Cole.

[Zach Lowe]

They don't cheat, dude, they don't cheat anymore.

[John Jastremski]

Right?

[Zach Lowe]

You know what time they cheated?

[John Jastremski]

I don't. I don't even like the cheating excuse because to me, I just like, I.

[Zach Lowe]

Just have a friend who's an Astros fan. So I just like, you gotta give.

[John Jastremski]

Him shit for that. That's I would do the same thing. It bothers me from a Yankee standpoint, because to me, it's a loser mentality. Like, the Yankees lost to the Astros because the Astros were better, not because they had buzzers, not because the Yankees, you know, were cheated out of anything. The Yankees scored in the 2017 ALCS. I think they scored like two runs in four games down in Houston. That's why you didn't go to the World Series. You lost in four games in 2022. I'm sorry, I don't want to hear about cheating. But to answer your question, the NL is a much deeper league. But I do wonder, specifically with the Dodgers, who were supposed to be, hey, this unstoppable, unbeatable wagon of a team that you could just shoo in, pencil in 110 wins, World Series, on and on we go. They're vulnerable. They are absolutely vulnerable. That's the way I'd look at it if I'm a Met fan. The Mets could beat the Dodgers in a playoff series.

[Zach Lowe]

They're one game behind them right now. Now, the Mets run differential is kind of ho hum for a team with their record. That worries me a little bit. The. The bullpen. There's been a lot. I read Jeff Passon's trade column today on ESPN about.

[John Jastremski]

Look at you getting informed. I'm proud of you.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, apparently I looked up Eugenio Suarez. Am I saying his name right? I looked up his stats. He's a third baseman. He has like a thousand home runs. Like that guy. He's leads the NL in home runs, I think.

[John Jastremski]

Yeah, he looked. He looked nice in the Bronx. They need help at that.

[Zach Lowe]

I know they're talking about him, too. Please. Is the. Is this bridge to Diaz, this. This dire? Like, is this the number one need for the Mets?

[John Jastremski]

In my opinion, yes. Now, you can make the argument that they're going to get themselves a big reliever in the next two months without making a trade. Because Coy Holmes, the former Yankee, is starting for the first time this year.

[Zach Lowe]

Opening day starter. I was like, who the hell is this guy? He's starting on opening day. I look his career stats.

[John Jastremski]

I was like all star closer for the Yankees. Lost the job last year. Yankee fans couldn't stand him, myself included. Worked his way back into the circle of trust. Didn't end up getting that role back, but he did play a big part of the bullpen in the postseason. I never in a million years thought he'd be able to start games. Like, I didn't look at his pitch repertoire and say, oh, this is a guy like Lugo who had five or six pitches and is going to be able to do this. I was skeptical. The Mets shut me up. He's pitched really well, but he's never started games before in the big leagues. He's now reached an innings point that to me is not sustainable. Taking a ball every fifth day. So I think he'll be a part of your bullpen sooner rather than later. If you can go and compliment Kwei Holmes going to the bullpen with one or two other arms and I trust David Stearns to do that. He's the sort of GM that's very resourceful and has a keen eye with pitching. They'll probably Zach, get one or two relievers that you haven't really heard much about. I'll be right there with you. Be like, don't know much about this guy. Got to do a little research on this guy. And then you'll see him in August and September and you'll be like, yeah, he's shoving. David Stearns knew exactly what he was doing. So I'd look at the Mets and I'd say pitching help, reliever, starter, either one. Because if you get a starter then you have more flexibility with guys that you can move to the bullpen. But if there ain't anybody on offense, they need a center field. Tyrone Taylor's offense is just not good enough.

[Zach Lowe]

And McNeil's played there. So what happens if McNeil can, McNeil can play everywhere though he played. They move them all around. I like McNeil. He's been, I, I understand he was polarizing and he's kind of had a bounce back year after some disappointing years. But he's the, he's played there. Center field. Okay. All right. Center for. Yeah, Taylor just. You can't hit.215 with one home run or whatever he's got and be an outfielder. Right. I mean I don't care if you're a center field. You got to hit a little bit.

[John Jastremski]

Right there with you. And I know his defense is really good. I know he hit in the playoffs last year. You can't have a five something OPS and be an everyday player on a championship team.

[Zach Lowe]

Speaking of hit it. Speaking of hitting the playoffs last year again, playoffs is when I check. Got laid off, checked back in. Okay. I thought like I'm coming in the season like this Vientos guy. Wow, what a playoffs is like what the hell is going on? Is this guy good? Like he's starting to hit, he's starting to make good Contact now. He's had some hard hit out. He's had a couple of big hits. Is this a thing? Can we rely on him or is this like. That was a little bit of a fluke.

[John Jastremski]

So I was the biggest cord carrying member of the Swaggy V fan club.

[Zach Lowe]

Oh, that's what we're calling him.

[John Jastremski]

Swaggy V is his nickname.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay.

[John Jastremski]

That's what they call him in the clubhouse. I can't say I came up with it. That's what I've heard. He was so awesome last year, Zach. Talk about getting humbled. Like Alvarez, he thought he was going to be on the opening day roster last year. He's not. They sent him down to Triple A. He's pissed off about it. They call him up in May. He gets a bunch of big hits. He takes the job away from Beatty and is the third baseman. He had one of the most productive offensive seasons on the team. And you can make the argument that in the playoffs he was their best hitter. Like that's how good vientos was in 24. I thought it was the beginning of the. Him being a household name in Queens. That he's only 20.

[Zach Lowe]

I'm looking at. He's only 25.

[John Jastremski]

Young guy. Young guy. I. I didn't know if he could cut it defensively at their base. That was a concern I had going into the offseason. But from like an offensive standpoint, I was like, this guy's going to rake. How is he not going to rake? I have been stunned how poorly he has hit the ball and I am stunned how pathetic his numbers have been. I need to see more than a couple hard hit balls. I need more of a sustained sample. The problem, he's going to run into Zach, all of a sudden there's competition now for his job because Starling Marte is back. Starling Marte has hit in the DH spot. He's going to get it bats because he can hit a fastball. He can roll out of bed and hit a fastball. And then you have the other young guys at third base where Beatty's played well at home. Mauricio's raw and he's coming off injury.

[Zach Lowe]

But I don't trust him anymore. I had like a weak love affair with Mauricio. Every time he comes up, I'm like, he's going be to be behind 0 and 2, but I'm just going to blink. It's going to be Owen 2.

[John Jastremski]

You're out of Mauricio, but he's.

[Zach Lowe]

I'm not out I'm just like. I got excited and now I'm like, he's. It's. I don't know. I don't know. I get too excited. I get too excited too fast.

[John Jastremski]

I get it. Give him wiggle room, though. This is a guy coming off major, major surgery who I thought was not going to be a player for them at all this year. So listen, Vientos would be a great guy to get going because we saw what he did last year. I think he has the highest upside and ceiling out of any of those guys offensively you can put at their base. If you can get him being a part of this thing in a big way, much like Alvarez changes the feel of your lineup.

[Zach Lowe]

All right, I got an important question for you.

[John Jastremski]

Oh, boy.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, Mauricio. Okay, let me go back to Mauricio again. I know nothing. He strikes me as undisciplined as a hitter. Fantasy tells me he can't hit lefties at all. So that's already just like. That's over. I just. He just, again, it's like, oh, and to every single swinging a bad pitch. Is he undisciplined? Is this like, what. What does he need to do?

[John Jastremski]

He is, but he's also young, raw, inexperienced player. So I think you have to take that for what it is now. Is that something you can develop over time? That's on Ronnie Mauricio. The problem, he's the perfect guy, Zach, that if the team stunk, you'd play him every day. You'd say, get your seasoning in the big leagues and make those adjustments. Being a big leaguer, where the Mets are at as a team, they can't do that.

[Zach Lowe]

Did Soto walk in as like a 20 year old with this kind of batting eye? I know he's leads the league in walks since he came into the majors, but, like, did he come in as, like just this disciplined?

[John Jastremski]

Yes. Think about this for a second. The guy couldn't even legally drink, and he's in the World Series against two hall of Fame pitchers, Justin Verlander and Garrett Cole, for the Astros in 2019. They couldn't get him out. Couldn't get him out. 19 years old, 20 years old, playing in the World Series, and he had this unreal batting eye and this swagger and this confidence. That's why I was so stunned the first two months that he played as poorly as he did because I watched him every single game with the Yankees last year, Zach, from game one to game 162, Juan Soto was the dude. He just like, embraced the spotlight. The moment, being a Yankee, coming up in big spots. The whole deal wasn't the case for the first two months with the Mets. But listen, his June, one of the best months in the history of the franchise. He's gotten a couple of big hits recently, which to me has been kind of a bugaboo for him, where, hey, you're Juan Soto. You're going to get those big hits, you're going to have those big moments, and they're starting to come and listen. You just know it. It's like certain. You see certain guys where there's the adjustment. Like LeBron. Not to compare them to LeBron, but you know, LeBron in Miami, where there was the adjustment period, but you knew, hey, he's LeBron, he's going to be fine. Same sort of deal with Soto.

[Zach Lowe]

I just love every at bat is like, he'll take a close pitch and the umpire will call it a strike. And sometimes the umpire, according to the pitch box thing, is right, and sometimes he's wrong. And Soto just has this dialogue where he'll look at me like, you sure? Like, was I wrong? Was I wrong to take that? And it seems like a friendly. And then he'll sometimes just, like, the dialogue will be over and he'll make this his. Okay. Like, I don't. I kind of don't believe you, but I'm moving on to the next. I just love the theatrics. He just sees it as this nice dialogue, and he's like. Because I'm like, I'm on Soto. Like, are you sure? Are you sure you got that one right?

[John Jastremski]

There are certain guys who have, like, that mastery of the strike zone. Wade Boggs had it for years where it was just like, you knew and he knew. Same sort of deal. And the theatrics make it in a whole other experience with Soto. And, you know, he didn't have the shuffle early in the year, the nodding when he sees a pitch and he kind of acknowledges, all right, this is what you're looking to do. Like the bat. If you want to watch a fun Soto a bat. I don't know if you watched it last year. If you're already all in on NBA coverage, the bat he had in Game five of the LCS against the. The equivalent, the Gordons. Get them to the World Series. I know I. I'm the worst with that. It's. It's tough. It's. It's 40 years of baseball history. You know, it's. Yeah, we all make mistakes. John Sterling would Do it repeatedly during the playoffs. But that's why John Sterling is John Sterling.

[Zach Lowe]

Boy, you just. You just said two words that just shiver up my spine.

[John Jastremski]

Yankees win. Yankees win.

[Zach Lowe]

You're banned. That's it. You're never coming back. If you do a Waldman. If you do a Susie Waldman impersonation, it's really all over. I just. Just their voices. If I. Even if I were at dinner, is Susie Walt. Suzy Waldman. What is she doing now?

[John Jastremski]

She still does the Yankees with Dave.

[Zach Lowe]

If I were at dinner in a restaurant and from four tables behind me I heard that voice, I would get up and leave. I can't even. I can't even overhear it. I can't know if she's great at her job. I'm sure it's just. I'm. It's. I can't. And Sterling. Forget it. I can't. I can't even. Okay. Anyway, so.

[John Jastremski]

I feel like I'm Emperor Palpatine in Star Wars. The hate is flowing through you.

[Zach Lowe]

I used to drive around. I used to drive around in my car unnecessarily, like, on the way back from a late shift or something, listening to Bob Murphy on the radio calling Mets games.

[John Jastremski]

They.

[Zach Lowe]

Garlonzo, he had to.

[John Jastremski]

Smoking, like, 10 cigarettes while he's doing a broadcast.

[Zach Lowe]

It was just great. I don't know what the hell we were talking about when you said John Sterling about Soto's at bat.

[John Jastremski]

I think, oh, game five. Lcs. Watch that at bat. And it just sums up Soto in a nutshell. Like, that's what makes him the hitter that he is. And don't be surprised if he has a moment like that in a big game against the Phillies, in a big game in the playoffs, where it's like, yep, that's why you gave him $780 million.

[Zach Lowe]

Last question. It's very important one for me. I have a blue Piazza batting practice jersey. I have. I have a home pinstripe, traditional home pinstripe Todd Hundley jersey. Whoa. Okay.

[John Jastremski]

Bringing it back.

[Zach Lowe]

And I want. I want a new one. Like. And I'm. And I'm like, just curious. There's more jerseys into rotation now. What's your favorite Mets jersey? Not number, not player. Like, is there a jersey? Is the pinstripe one the one I should get? Because I gotta tell you, I like the gray road jerseys a lot. And how the blue and the orange. New York. I like that they say New York, and I like that it really pops off the gray. Is. Is that a good. Like, what's a good jersey. What should I do?

[John Jastremski]

I think you nailed it. The road gray met jersey is my favorite jersey.

[Zach Lowe]

It's a beautiful jersey.

[John Jastremski]

It's very Mets New York. I don't like the pinstripe Yankee jersey either. And maybe this is because I'm a messy eater and I go to a ball game, I'm spilling beer on my jersey. There might be a hot dog stain, a mustard. I've had that happen to me in the past where I'm a little particular with the white. And, like, the gray Yankee jersey is my go to. That's the one.

[Zach Lowe]

I wear the beautiful jersey.

[John Jastremski]

Cole o', Neill, the Dom Battingly. I love it.

[Zach Lowe]

I hated Paul o' Neal so much.

[John Jastremski]

Oh, you and Simmons. I mean, it is stunning that Simmons allowed me to work here, by the way, with all the love that I have for the teams that I grew up with. And then, you know, hey, look, man. Hey, look, o'. Neill.

[Zach Lowe]

And I'll tell you this, don't even get me started on throwing the bat at piaza. But I, I. First of all, I. I will concede the Yankees jerseys are beautiful, but I like the pinstripe ones for both teams. I think the color scheme works.

[John Jastremski]

You know what jersey bothers me for the Mets?

[Zach Lowe]

Nyc.

[John Jastremski]

Yes. Can't stand them.

[Zach Lowe]

Everyone hates that jersey. It's kind of growing on me, you.

[John Jastremski]

Know, what with the purple, I guess it's all right because I identified it last year with Grimace. I called them the Grimace jerseys, and they were like, good luck for the Mets. The black bring me back to my childhood, because I remember when the Mets introduced those, it was the late 90s. It was very like Bobby Valentine, Mike Hampton, you know, like those teams. So I like that. That team that's kind of back in the fold. But I'm kind of the mindset, Zach, with sports jerseys, less is more. I don't like 10 zillion jerseys. A lot of the modern ones stink. Like, I'm a Miami Dolphins fan. Their new uniforms make me so ill because their classic throwback dolphin is so baller. It's so amazing. And that should be the uniform all the time. The Mets. To me, it should be the two classic uniforms and any alternate black. That's it.

[Zach Lowe]

You don't like the. You don't like blue?

[John Jastremski]

No, I don't need blue.

[Zach Lowe]

No, I like the blue.

[John Jastremski]

It's too many, though. It's too many.

[Zach Lowe]

So I'm gonna go gray then. And go gray then. I have to decide what player. By the way, you mentioned, you know, all the Yankees. You grew up with it. Just, just. I'm still. My college roommate was a Padres fan from San Diego. That was a strike. That was a strike to Tino Martinez. The game won World Series and the.

[John Jastremski]

Next pitch went to the upper deck.

[Zach Lowe]

I want to replay that whole World Series with that. Was that umpire dead? What happened? It was right over the middle of the plate.

[John Jastremski]

I could be wrong on this so the listeners can fact check me on this. I am pretty sure the same umpire who blew Jeffrey Mayer in 1996 when the Kid reached over the wall and they called it a home run with Jeter.

[Zach Lowe]

No.

[John Jastremski]

Tony Tarrasco, Tony Torasco, I believe Richie Garcia, who was the umpire down the right field line, was the home point umpire. And game one of the World Series.

[Zach Lowe]

Is he in prison?

[John Jastremski]

No comment.

[Zach Lowe]

All right, John Jastremski, thank you for your time and indulging me on Mets Corner. I'll have you back. We'll let you talk about the Yankees at some point. Thank you, sir.

[John Jastremski]

Not necessary. Thanks for having me, Zach. Anytime, dude.

[Zach Lowe]

All right, that's it for today's Zach Lowe Show. Thank you for listening. Thank you to Michael Pina for tearing the east with me. We had some disagreements, so we soldier through. We made it through the Junior Varsity conference. Thanks to JJ for debuting on Mets Corner and letting me rant about baseball a little bit. I'm getting a little too excited about the Mets. I'm a little worried about myself. We're back. Barring news on our regular schedule next week, Monday, Thursday and then it's vacation time. You're up time for me. Thank you for listening to the Zach Lowe Show. Thank you for watching. Thank you to Jesse and Jonathan on production. As always, we will see you next week. Must be 21 and over and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over and President D.C. gambling problem called 1-800- gambler or visit fan duel.com rg call 1-887-897777 or is it ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or is it MD gambling help.org in Maryland? Hope is here. Visit gambling helplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 Sport in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-H O P E N Y or text Hope NY in New York.