← The Zach Lowe Show
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Up on the Zach Low show. We've all had time to digest. LeBron James, Philadelphia 76er alongside Jalen Brown, Joel Embiid, Tyrese Maxey, VJ Edge coming out. Katavius Caldwell Pope has also joined them. It's time to sift through the teams that didn't get LeBron James, starting with the Golden State warriors, who appear to just be petering out the toward the end of the Steph Curry era, they re signed Draymond Green about 30 minutes ago to a one year, $27.7 million deal. Exactly the deal that he opted out of. What went wrong for the Warriors? Are they actually dead? What were the missed opportunities around the way that were actually realistic? Because this is a little bit of a depressing end of career situation for Steph Curry as of now. Does it mean this is going to be this way all the time for the Warriors? We talk about that and then their whole tier of the west is kind of interesting because after the top six, which we'll see if they're the same top six, Portland, John Morant, Phoenix did a lot of stuff over the summer. We'll talk about them. And then Denver is not in their tier. It's above their tier. But they're in a very sticky situation with Peyton Watson. They were in one with Spencer Jones. So we're kind of going around the west. LeBron, all of that. Motaquila is here to talk about all of that. And then Sean Fennesee and I recorded a Mets corner and we did it before Francisco Lindor hit two home runs and had a triple in a 143 win last night over the Braves. Keep Francisco Lindor. That's all coming up on the Zach Lowe Show. Welcome to the Zach Lowe Show. It's Tuesday afternoon. We've had some time now to sift through LeBron James, Philadelphia 76er. Let it sink in. It's a real thing. Jaylen Brown is also a 76er, not a Celtic. Joel Embiid is still a 76er. Ketavius Caldwell Pope is going to be a 76er. A clutch reunion in Philadelphia, and it's time to sort through some of the collateral damage that LeBron's decision left in Cleveland, in Miami, and especially in Golden State, where the Steph Curry era appears to be heading toward a whimper of an ending. But Mo de kill. You know him, you love him. He was here to help us sort through all of it. How you doing, bud?
- [02:24]
B
I'm doing great, Zach. I'm. I'm ready to roll right now. I'm just happy LeBron got it done before August. Cause that was my concern was we were going to go into August with it.
- [02:32]
A
We were not going to go into August with it. We did not go into August with it. It's still July. LeBron is a Sixer. And right before we went on this show today, Draymond Green re signed a one year, $27.7 million deal with the Warriors. Basically the same deal he opted out of to potentially give the warriors to flexibility to sign LeBron James, which they were not able to do and not unexpected. Draymond is still a very good player, one of the 10 to 12 best defensive players in the NBA. His offense has declined precipitously. His ability to be a real true playmaking hub has declined a bit with it. But still quite a good player on a team that is just kind of a weird team. It's the first real move they've done other than drafting Jaxel Landenborg, who was awesome in summer league. We'll talk more about the words in a minute. Do you have any leftover Philadelphia LeBron James thoughts? Modicil?
- [03:24]
B
Yeah, I think, you know, we're also focused on the offensive end, that we're not really looking at the defensive end a little bit in Philly and how that's all going to kind of slot itself out, you know, I know, look, Jaylen Brown's good defender. I think Edgecombe is going to be their point of attack guy. If they can keep him beat when he's on the floor near the rim, I think makes a big difference. But I do have concerns about that. Like you. You go look at the, the. When he did play in the Knick series, they put him out in space and it's a problem. Right. And you have issues with what you have to deal with. And I think those are the questions I'll be very curious about. They're not a great rebounding team. So, like, how do they fix that? Where does that come along? Obviously we know the depth issues with their back, with their front court, and how they deal with the size. But those are things I don't think has really been discussed as much. Cause again, we always just focus on the offense. But I think that's something to really kind of keep an eye on.
- [04:17]
A
I talked about that exact thing earlier this week or over the weekend when I did. Whenever I record. I can't remember all the. It's summer. Just every day is a different day. I completely agree with you. I get why people are worried about the offense and how all These guys with 30 plus percent usage rates are going to mesh. I personally am not really worried about that. Just because minutes staggering slash, guys missing games slash. Tyrese Maxey being a really great off ball player. I think Vijay Edgegoom playing mostly off the ball is probably healthy for this stage of his career and he's going to learn so much playing with LeBron. I'm not worried too much. It'll be interesting. I'm not worried too much about it. The defense to me is a bigger potential. I don't want to say issue because I think there'll be a solid defensive team, but are they going to be a top eight, top 10 defensive team? I don't know. You mentioned Embiid in the playoffs against the Knicks after his week of glory against the Celtics. Should be noted that it was like post appendicitis. Joel Embiid along with chronic knee issues, although I don't know how serious those were in the playoffs. Joel Embiid. But look, I mean that's the whole thing. Embiid's the whole thing unless and until there's a different starting center on the team. And I'm not convinced that that's even possible. Even if the Sixers wished it were so. And I'm not sure that they do. Can they manage Joel Embiid through. Forget a regular season, multiple playoff rounds with. And that could take many forms. As I've said before, it could take, hey, we're up two zero. We're going to sit you in game three. It could be, you know, we just won seven games, seven game series. We're going to rest you in game one. It could, it could take a lot of different forms and now the team is talented enough that at least that might be a viable way to get through three playoff series. I'm not going to pick them to make the finals. But they are in the conversation. I think they have the second best finals odds in the East. But I agree with you that the defense is a big question mark. KCP, no harm, no foul. I mean like a potential 3 and D guy off the bench who knows LeBron very well. Fine. Like put him next to Simons and Dean Wade and their backup fives, which is still, I think, kind of weak spot. But you know, fine, that's no harm, no foul.
- [06:20]
B
Yeah, I think that's, you know, it's, I like the KCP pickup in the, in the opportunity, you know, getting him on the buyout market and, and jumping in, in that area. And again, we've seen What KCP can do when he plays with LeBron, when he plays with Jokic, we've seen what it looks like when he doesn't, and that hasn't been very good. But hopefully they can kind of recreate that magic that he had when he was with the Lakers and teamed up with LeBron in the way he goes. You know, listen, the Simons aspect of it, like, I'm interested to see how that plays and you know, they're going to bring a lot of defensive utility off the bench. Like he said, kcp, Wade and those guys. It just comes down to Embiid and then it's also going to come down to Bona. It's going to come down to Huck 40, right. In terms of their backup positions and how they're able to hold up, they probably need to go try to find somebody else if they can at the center position because those guys are just generally backups at this point. And I don't feel like it's something that they should feel very comfortable going into for the nights that when Embiid doesn't play. And I know we've, you know, I know you, I think you even mentioned it on one of the pods. Like we are going to see LeBron play the five some, you know that's going to happen, but it's not something that's going to be long term and that's going to be on the nights that LeBron is actually playing. So I think they still need to kind of figure that whole area out. There's still work to be done in Philly, but again, this is going to be an awesome sort of fun thing to watch. And I'm not, I'm with you. I'm not that worried about the offensive end. They will figure it out. And the truth is though, they all have to sacrifice something and that's just what it's going to be. And they're all going to sacrifice usage. All their usage is all going to take a dip. Nobody's going to all of a sudden usage climb in this situation, but they got to figure out what they can do offensively. I think this is a great opportunity for Nick Nurse to get really creative on the offensive end. I know, you know, nobody likes talking about certain offensive philosophies, but this is a team that can run some triangle philosophies and get some good stuff out of it. This team can have a lot of movement with what they do. They can run a multi layered offense, you know, with an action on the strong side, with the pin down on the weak side or some other stuff going on with so many high IQ players, like, I'm pretty excited to see how that kind of plays itself out.
- [08:24]
A
I think this. And they can run. They can run like in transition. Everybody but Embiid is built to play that way. Look, this is, I think, the most fun LeBron outcome. I think it's reasonable for him to have concluded that if he didn't want to go to Denver for whatever reason, and it doesn't appear that was ever realistic and he didn't want to go be Danny Glover in Lethal Weapon, I'm too old for this shit in Minnesota. And it appears he did not, then I think this is a reasonable place to land. If his priority is I want to try to actually win, I want to win into May and June and chase a fifth ring. Not that he's ring chasing. He's not. Have already addressed that.
- [09:06]
C
Go ahead.
- [09:06]
B
Can I jump it? Everybody should be ring chasing. That's the point. I don't, I don't. All 30 teams are chasing a trophy. All the players should be chasing the rings. Like, I don't, I don't get mad with these guys that are ring chasing. I mean, maybe if it's. I'm not gonna play and I'm gonna sit at the end of the bench and just want to get the championship ring. Sure. But like, he's gonna play, he's gonna be a big part of it. Like, I don't, I don't. I hate the phrase.
- [09:32]
A
The only places that would have been like, oh, really are San Antonio and Oklahoma City. And he was never going to those places. I think Cleveland would have been equally viable as Philadelphia, perhaps even. Bill and I vehemently disagree on this. He wrote the Cavs off completely because of the Harden. LeBron Mitchell fit. And I get that it's not the most attractive three man on ball machine, particularly with Harden's dribble, dribble, dribble tendencies. But the double big thing of Mobley and Allen is interesting. It's in the east, not in the west, where you're probably going to have to beat both of those juggernauts to get to the finals. But here, here are some things that, having had a few days now to sift through all this, here are some things that I'm pretty certain of. The Harden and not Darius Garland thing was a pretty significant obstacle for the Cavs. If they have never made the Harden trade, I think they have a much better chance of getting LeBron. I don't know if they get him because maybe he just wanted to do something new that's in keeping with his career. And that's not to say they shouldn't have made that trade. They were trying to go all in for this season and they didn't trust Garland's health. They had good reason not to. The Jalen Brown trade. I don't think The Sixers get LeBron James without Jalen Brown. I think that that seems like common sense. As of now, 72, 96 hours later, it just can't be overstated that the Celtics not only traded Jalen Brown to the Sixers and let them get off Paul George, but also enabled them to get LeBron James. And I don't know where he goes if Jalen Brown is not a Sixer. Now linked to that are the warriors, which we will get back to. And linked to the wars. Also is the Anthony Davis variable. You know, the reporting on this has been all over the place. I've seen people say, well, you know, did they. Did they try to get the warriors or whatever team to get Anthony Davis or would it have helped? Here's where I come down. I think, yeah, it would have helped. I don't know if it would have swung it. And I feel pretty confident saying no one was really told if you get Anthony Davis, LeBron is coming to your team or likely to come to your team. I don't think it got anywhere near that direct. And some teams got absolutely no communication. I about any player, whether it was Anthony Davis or Kyrie Irving. And so the number one thing, and I keep saying this, and it's the least sexy thing to say, no one knew anything. All the teams, everybody I talked to, everyone who was in it, on the periphery of it was like, I don't know, we don't know. And that included should we get this player or that player? No one had a clue until he made his decision. The Sixers didn't have a clue until he made his decision. And so those are just some thoughts. Are you ready to discuss the warriors moving?
- [12:13]
B
Yes, I am ready. But I do want to nominate Brad Stevens for executive of the year for building this Philadelphia 76ers team.
- [12:20]
A
Hey, look, we're going to get to Brad Stevens in a second and this converse if the Celtics start the season 20 and five and I don't like the Celtics are going to win.
- [12:29]
B
They're over.
- [12:29]
A
Under I think is 50 and a half. I just, I'm just going to prep you like the conversation is going to be if they're 20 and 5 and the Sixers, like, Embiid's hurt and Jalen Brown's cranky and they're 18 and 12. Like the Conversation is going to shift a little bit.
- [12:43]
B
Yeah, for sure. And it can go the other way as well, but I think that's going to be. That's part of the dynamic of what you have as a gm. And I was just being a little bit trying to be a little bit funny with the Stevens comment.
- [12:55]
A
The warriors are unquestionably the biggest losers of the LeBron saga because this team has done essentially nothing in the off season except kill the draft, apparently. Although we'll see. They resigned Porzingis.
- [13:07]
B
Fine.
- [13:07]
A
We'll see how many games he can play. They've now re signed Draymond Green.
- [13:10]
B
Fine.
- [13:10]
A
He should finish his career Warrior. I hope that he does. Jimmy Butler is going to miss a huge portion of the season and again, like you should not just assume that when he comes back he's going to be Jimmy Butler. He's coming off an ACL tear. We'll see what he is. Moses Moody is going to miss a huge chunk of the season. They're over under, I believe is set at 39 and a half. Vegas thinks this is a sub.500 team and it just seems like they have left Steph Curry in the lurch and there's been just a lot of screaming and yelling about how the warriors failing Curry Bill went in on them hard yesterday and I don't disagree that clearly having arrived here, the Path from 2022 title, which by the way they deserve a shit ton of credit for and we'll get there to here, is disappointing and there are probably some missed opportunities along the way. I just want people to tell me what is the actual missed opportunity that you see that is realistic that would have put this team in position to win the title now or in one of the previous couple of seasons. Because I think a lot of this comes down to not now and not 2025. 2024 was the was the finals appearance and the title that was kind of up for grabs. If the warriors had found something in the interim between 2022 and 2024, everything after that, you're driving uphill against the wind, against the Thunder and now the Spurs. But still, would it be nice if the current warriors were not 39 and a half over under and kind of depressing? Absolutely. So here's where Jaylen Brown comes in because, you know, a lot of the warriors criticism in the last 48 hours has been focused on, well, why didn't you get Jalen Brown because if you had gotten Jalen Brown, you could have had LeBron James and maybe, maybe. But here's the thing. Moving Shams reported this yesterday that the warriors and the Celtics briefly talked about Jalen Brown at the trade deadline. Did you see this?
- [15:03]
B
Yeah.
- [15:04]
A
And that the price would have been 4ish first round draft assets and the warriors decided he's not worth it. The trade that just occurred for Jaylen Brown and the negotiations around it would suggest that the warriors are in the consensus in saying that Jaylen Brown is not worth it. Now, Mo, you would say, why not revisit it now when the price might be lower and you're only bidding against the Sixers? I think one of the things that's being overlooked is that the centerpiece salary in that trade is attached to a player who is injured and is going to miss a huge portion of the season. The Celtics don't want. The Celtics are trying to win games. They don't want Jimmy Butler out till January, February, whatever it is, and then a percentage of himself after that. And as a result, they're going to ask for more picks than the Sixers attached to get off of Paul George. I would think so. Those are just. Those are just sort of some of the Jalen Brown slash LeBron realities. And even if you got Jalen Brown and LeBron. Ethan Sherwood Strauss, what a great piece about this today on his substack. Are you actually good enough to win the West? You're still super old and you're relying on a player in Jalen Brown who doesn't appear to be a great fit with the way the warriors typically play. To the point that he got famously left off Team USA with Steve Kerr as the head coach. Do you have any thoughts on Jalen Brown warriors before I move on with my spiel?
- [16:30]
B
No, I think it was really. I think it's a really important point to note that the Celtics did get a player that's going to theoretically be playing on opening night, you know, and Paul George, who should be healthy enough and ready to go. And what you're getting with Jimmy Butler is somebody that you might get in March. And you talked about it earlier. We don't know what he's going to look like at this point. And beyond that, we've also. He's been plagued with injuries for the past few years. Like, it's, it's difficult to kind of envision that we're going to give up Jaylen Brown in this situation for a player we're going to get in March and we're not quite sure what he's going to look like. As much as we want to joke about Paul George and everything, he was pretty solid for them for the, the Sixers last year
- [17:15]
A
when available.
- [17:15]
B
But, and, but I think also in the playoff series against the Celtics, he was really good. And I think that is something that kind of you sort of look into going like, all right, there's still something there. Is he worth the contract? Probably not, right? Like it's, he's overpaid at that point and you know, he has a player option for next season. I almost positive he'll pick that up. But I think, you know, what you're looking at is just they have a piece there where it's, hey, we can go out and win games right now and not take that far of a drop off of what we were from last season when everybody written us off and we went out and won 54 games. You know, I think that's going to be the thing. And then you add in Mitchell Robinson, you're, you're looking at where they're at. You're kind of saying like, hey man, like the Celtics aren't just sitting there going, hey, okay, we're going to trade Jaylen Brown and suck next season. So they're trying to go for it here.
- [18:05]
A
That's a. Jimmy Butler being injured is an important, you know, post whatever date he got injured reality for the warriors in these trade talks, they do have I think three and a half first round picks that they can trade. So they're not pick weak. They have a lot of picks and those picks have some value because of the age of their roster. You could say a 20 and the new lottery rules, those are valuable picks. The other realities are, number one, the big salaries involved. Ever since they traded Wiggins for Jimmy Butler. A masterstroke, by the way, that had everyone drooling over how good this team was going into the previous season. And at the end of, the end of last, end of two seasons ago, the salaries have always been attached to either injured players like Jimmy Butler or franchise legends who are hard to trade. It's hard to just straight up trade Draymond Green or. And you know, and it's just, it's just not an easy thing to do. And this is what Ethan really nailed. All of this really comes down to. If you think the warriors just blew this and missed opportunities. And it's not that they are being too precious, I think with the assets that they have and too reticent to take risks at the expense of the post step future which they are trying to protect. That's true. It's that Jordan Poole, James Wiseman, Jonathan Kaminga and Moses Moody amounted to little to no trade value and they tried to trade the number two pick before they even used it on James Wiseman and they couldn't find someone that they liked or a good fit and then all of that blew up in their faces. They probably they did wait too long to trade Kaminga. The sheen was off. But they also really liked Kaminga and their owner really liked Kaminga. They mismanaged that. I'm not sure that's changing their life and that's really what it comes down to. They did not have those pick and it's their fault. They made the picks they could have had Franz, Wagner, Alper and Shengun was really high on their draft where they didn't pick him because they had picked Wiseman the year before or two years before whenever it was and those picks just didn't have enough value for them. And so you look at the mo like I'm going to go through like the what ifs along the way. You ready? And I'm going to miss some because there's been a lot like they could have tried to get Kawhi Leonard this past summer. Okay. Like he's old, he's and he's currently not on. He's in limbo. He's literally in NBA limbo. They tried to get Paul George in when he was had the player option with the Clippers that he ended up opting out and signing with the Sixers. That was a very complicated potential three team transaction when none of the other not three team, three entity Clippers, Paul George warriors, where all of the entities had different sort of incentives and visions of what the deal would look like. And Paul George, max salary player for the Sixers did not work out great until it did work out fine via Jaylen Brown. They tried to get Lowry, Markkanen and the Jazz demanded everything to the point that it was really a kind of a non starter. The Giannis thing is interesting because I'm not really sure what happened when they used to be just hot and heavy on Giannis and then you didn't hear their name much in the last, the last iteration of it and I think it's probably because they were just outgunned. I don't think they could have really competed all that well with again like Draymond Green or injured Jimmy Butler as the salary filler is just like not that attractive to the Milwaukee pucks. Here are the ones that are interesting to me. Carl Anthony Towns ahead of when the Knicks traded for him. The Athletic reported at the time that the warriors had sniffed around him and just couldn't have a package that fit what the Wolves needed and it would have had to involve Wiggins Wiggins salary. Wiggins has played for the Wolves already. That didn't end well. That was an interesting name for me. They tried to get Kevin Durant by the way and Kevin Durant was like no thank you, please don't trade. For me the Towns one is interesting. The other like if you want to look at realistic and well timed ones in 2023 slash going into winter 2024 trade deadline 2024 they looked at the Raptors guys OG Anunoby and Pascal Siakam and if you're looking for like a realistic what if that doesn't completely handicap the warriors post step and was doable and it looks something like you trade a decent amount of stuff for OGN and it will be perfect fit exactly as we've just seen and you have enough left over for like another medium sized move for another top 45 player who fits the way you play. I don't know who that would have been. Like just imagine Jrue Holiday or Derek White just like someone in that vein of players. And then you're talking are there alternate universes where they nail every transaction on the way to that even even whiffing in the draft like they did? Maybe it's easy to say that now. And by the way they do deserve a ton of credit for turning Durant into DLO into Wiggins and a championship and then Wiggins into Butler and a team that looked pretty fearsome for a while with Jimmy Butler. So I think a lot of the warriors criticism is a little the warriors front office criticism is a little bit too loud and kind of also looking in the wrong places. To me it all boils down to the draft picks that didn't hit well. And not that Moody is like a whiff, he's a fine player. It just didn't hit well. And it's Wiseman.
- [23:21]
B
It comes back to why you needed you needed a double or a triple and Moody's a single like at the end of the day in terms of looking at it in that regard. But it's the draft picks that are the problem and it's picking Kaminga and then Wagner going the next pick right? Like that's probably a perfect sort of fit in where they go and how that kind of works out and it changes their trajectory of the team. The Wiseman one, first off. And Bill did the redraft.
- [23:51]
A
He sure did.
- [23:52]
B
You know, for 2020, which was an incredibly weird draft. As somebody that's been part of the draft process, I couldn't imagine, you know, we're only going to do one. One on workouts. The guy has to wear a mask. We're going to do interviews just over zoom. And. And there was just so many different weird sort of things that went through the whole process, even into just evaluating these guys. Like, I kind of like, yeah, maybe you should have taken Lamelo over Wiseman. Like, that's such a wild draft that I kind of say, all right. Like, that was strange. And when you look at that whole draft, there were a lot of whiffs in there. So I kind of a little bit forgive them a bit. On the. On the Wiseman one. For me, it's the Kaminga Wagner one that really kind of changes everything for me. Sengun would have been a great. Would have been a really nice pickup. And I think the mistake is, well, we have Wiseman and then two years later saying, we have Wiseman. We can't take Shen Goon. No, just take the guy you. You like and figure it out from there. And if Wiseman. If you got to move Wiseman, you got to move Wiseman. But I think that's sort of the mistakes that they made. But in terms of the other stuff, like, yeah, they're part of being able to trade for a guy is the other side has to agree to the trade. It has to make sense. Right? Like, I was all in. Like, they should have gotten Larry Markkanen. Except Utah was asking for pretty much the Golden Gate Bridge, by the way,
- [25:17]
A
Larry Markkanen still on the Utah Jazz. So no one was able to trade for Lowry Marketing, not one team.
- [25:24]
B
So there was, you know, so they were. Danny Ainge was trying to fleece the warriors, and they just said the price was too high. Okay. Like, that's Jared.
- [25:31]
A
Actually, speaking of the Jazz, like, Jaren Jackson Jr. Is another name who. It took three firsts, and, you know, Desmond Bain took four firsts. I mean, are any of those guys at this stage right now turning the warriors into real contenders in Steph's twilight? And that's why I rewind to, like, 2023, 2024. Those were the last best chances, I think, for the warriors to chase another title after the truly magical 2022 title that they conjured almost out of seemingly nowhere. And I've said this over and over. Again, this, what's happening now was always the most likely scenario. It's what happens to every great team. Yes, they get old and they don't contend anymore. This great team happened to have the rare golden chance to do their version of the spurs drafting Kawhi Leonard in whatever 2011, whatever draft that was, and prolong your window. And Kawhi Leonard is a miracle. You don't get that player often at number 14 or 15 where he was drafted. You have a much better chance of getting it at number two. They did not. They didn't get Halliburton. We've all done it ad nauseum. This was always the most likely outcome is that the young guys aren't good enough in time for the old guys, and then the old guys leave and the young guys aren't quite good enough to do what. What the old guys did, which was become a championship team. And there is honor in going out on your shield or going out on your sword or whatever it is. And they're going to keep trying to win like they still have all these picks. They're going to see what comes available in the regular season and see if they find something that they fit better. But as of now, yeah, I mean, the over under is right. This team has no shot. They, they, they are not in the top six in the West. I put Utah ahead of them. I, I'd probably rank them like 8th, 9th, something like that. A play in team in the west. That's depressing. It's not what Steph Curry quote deserves at the end of his career. He also has four championships and two MVPs and a Finals MVP I do have. However, now there's. The next level of the discussion is, well, should the warriors just trade Steph Curry? I don't think they will ever trade Steph Curry. I don't think Steph Curry wants to be traded or will ever want to be traded. I think he and Dre, I wanted him and Clay and Draymond to go out as warriors for life together, raging against the dying of the light. Clay obviously left. We're still here with Steph and Draymond. And if you're Curry and you really did have a wandering eye, and I don't think he does. I'm just doing this for the sake of discussion. To be clear, I think the smarter move is don't sign a contract extension. He's eligible for one now, two years and a gazillion dollars and do what LeBron did, go into free agency and pick my team. So That a team doesn't have to gut its roster to get me now and I have one more year with the warriors and then if I really want to chase a ring or play competitive basketball, I can sign for the minimum anywhere I want. That said, Mo, I do have some fake Steph Curry trades just to do the thought exercise.
- [28:28]
B
I love it. I love it. And I'm with you on that. And again, the dream was all three of those guys would retire together. So that was unfortunately not going to happen anymore.
- [28:40]
A
So I found six teams that make literally any level of sense as Steph Curry trade targets. Just this is. Again, this is just for fun. It's July 28th. Nothing's happening. We're waiting on Peyton Watson and Jalen Duran. Indulge me in the thought exercise, which I think is actually important to do. If you're going to say trade Steph Curry, they should trade him. Here's where we're looking. Okay. Are you ready for the teams? In no particular order, Atlanta needs a point guard. Has a lot of pieces. It would take. It would. And has some picks, some extra picks. It would take 3 of their salaries, starting with Dyson Daniels. I don't think Jonathan Kamingo would be signed and traded back to Golden State in this scenario. They're one that you could make the argument that they have assets, they have the salaries to make it work and they are a player away from being extremely interesting. And Steph Curry is still a top 10 to 12 player at worst in the NBA. Denver, unfortunately, they don't really have any picks to trade. They're already hard. They're already like have major apron issues. Can't take any additional money back. In a Paden Watson sign and trade. It would have to involve Jamal Murray and or some combination of salaries that the warriors don't want. Does really make sense. And I know you have a couple, so I'm wondering if I hit any of yours along the way.
- [30:03]
B
I'll let you know when you hit one of my teams.
- [30:05]
A
Orlando.
- [30:07]
B
Yeah.
- [30:07]
A
Send Franz Wagner back to Golden State where he belongs. Suggs Wagner and pick slash picks for Stefan Moses. Moody works almost exactly in the trade machine. You can put Van Caro in for Bogner if you want. It's going to take one of those two guys and the warriors probably don't even want to eat the Jalen Suggs salary. But were they on your list?
- [30:28]
B
They were on my list. It was almost essentially that, that. That framework where I had Franz going to Golden State and you know, filler and then making it all work with draft assets.
- [30:42]
A
Houston fresh on my list. Fred Van vliet, Jabari Smith Jr. Reed shepherd and some sort of draft assets. And the Rockets would surely bulk it, including anything other than the players. I mentioned any draft assets at all. But just like, no. Remember, this is Steph Curry. If I'm trading him in the warriors, you're gonna have to bowl me over. Reunite Steph and KD in Houston when Katie wouldn't go to reunite with him in the Warriors. I think that's actually like. That's interesting. I think that's legit interesting. I think Shen Goon is probably a bridge too far for the Rockets, but that package like, that kind of makes sense to me. Again, I don't think any of this is. This is all pie in the sky.
- [31:21]
B
Yeah, yeah. I'd actually that's along the lines of what I had with Chengun being the centerpiece. And I don't think Houston would do it. But I also kind of looking at it this way, with, you know, KD not wanting to go to Golden State is more. I think is. Is different than Steph Curry coming to kd. And I think that's something where I think Katie would be more open to that concept and that idea of having Steph on his team. And I think that opens everything up. And then you're kind of covered defensively because, like, they're not. Amen. Thompson's not going to be on the board. Like, they're not going to, you know, put that in play. And I think that's an interesting one where I think that would be pretty fun to kind of watch as we go forward if it were to ever happen, which we both know, not. Not likely.
- [32:05]
A
Bill Simmons mentioned the spurs, de' Aaron Fox, and every possible draft asset that the spurs have, including what they find under the couch cushions. Yeah, that make. That makes some sense. By the way, speaking of Bill Simmons on that podcast, did you see that Joe House unveiled the T shirt that says he. He tricked Bill. He tricked Bill. So it's getting a little warm in my home studio. Unzipped his hoodie or whatever, and underneath was the Jaylen Brown got traded during Bill Simmons colonoscopy T shirt or whatever it was. And it reminded me mo. Did you see when Bill tricked me about attending the Taylor Swift Travis Kelsey wedding?
- [32:44]
B
I did. I heard that on the podcast. And to be honest, I was like, wow, Bill, really? Bill got to go to the podcast. I mean, to the wedding.
- [32:54]
A
I don't know that he realizes the damage that he's done. In my personal life that this is following me around. So we were at some friend's house over the weekend. They have a 12 year old girl, Radha, who's very good friends with our daughter. We've all been very good friends and we were just catching up. Rad is a big basketball player, big basketball fan. She loves LeBron. Her dad's a Sixers fan. So she had a lot of questions about LeBron coming to the Sixers were catching up on summer and this 12 year old girl, not an adult, a 12 year old girl says hey Zach, you know, there's something else I've been meaning to talk to you about. I was at the Travis Kelsey Taylor Swift wedding. If you have any questions about it and I'm like, even you, even you are. Are trolling me, Radha about this. This is what's happened to me in my life. Anyway, I just wanted to share my humility.
- [33:44]
B
Does Rada, does Rada talk trash on the basketball court? Like this seems to be the start of a, a, a Draymond Green like sort of run on the court from Rada.
- [33:55]
A
I'll tell you, she talks trash and uncle's act, that's for sure. And the last one, of course you have to mention the Hornets who have all the ingredients and would surely just not. It would not be Brandon Miller or conanipple. They're not doing that. It would probably have to involve one of Nas Reed or Kobe White who are neither of whom are tradable yet. But under NBA rules, another salary and then a bunch of picks. And the Hornets also have the bonus of like the warriors could get the Mavericks pick that the Hornets have and other picks that are not just the Hornets pick to give them as many bites at other teams failing as possible. Those are really the only. Those are the only teams that I could make a legit argument for.
- [34:33]
B
I tried to mess around a little bit and try to see if I can get Steph to Boston and that just does.
- [34:41]
A
I've totally forgot that that was my other one Paul George and draft assets for Steph Curry. That actually makes sense. It actually I forgot to put that in my notes. That was in. That was. That was another one of mine. I actually ran that by Bill and he kind of liked that one. Obviously he kind of liked. Well yeah, I would hope, hope Bill
- [35:00]
B
would like that one. You're getting Steph Curry. But I think, you know, if, if it wasn't like to me I said okay, the warriors don't want Paul George. There's just no other way to make it work financially after that? You know, if it's Derrick White, Peyton Pritchard, it just. You have to gut the entire roster to get to just Steph's salary. So it would have to be Paul George. And at the end of the day, I was just like, I think I'll just leave that one off.
- [35:26]
A
Fair enough. All right, let's take a quick break and we'll talk about Golden State's area within the very interesting Western Conference. Okay, the Warriors. Enough with the Warriors. They finished 10th in the west last year at 37 and 45. Steph missed a lot of games. Jimmy missed the end of the season. It was not a great season for the Warriors. Kind of a miserable one, actually. The top six in the west last year, Oklahoma City, San Antonio, Denver Lakers, Rockets, Wolves over Underwise, and according to my own personal thoughts, in some order, those remain the top six. After that, the west gets really interesting. The play in teams last year, seven to 10 were Portland, Phoenix, the Clippers. The Warriors. Say goodbye to the Clippers. They're gone. Utah finished last in the West. I think they have a shot at. If there's a team that has a shot at cracking the top six. I actually think it's Utah out of all these other teams. And the rest of it is like, I think this Portland Phenix warriors nexus of strangeness. I think there's, there's enough volatility there that a team like Dallas or Memphis, I think Memphis is being really underrated by Vegas. I don't know about New Orleans. There's just too much. There's too much going on. But someone, an afterthought team in the west is I think going to have a shot. If not, if not two of these afterthought teams at chasing a play in berth because I just think the Portland Phoenix warriors stuff, that trio has a lot of volatility and in Golden State's case, a pretty bad downside. Steph misses 35 games. They are like toast in those 35 games. Not, you know, toast toast, but pretty toasty. So I thought this would be a good time to look at Portland and Phoenix. Which one do you want to start with?
- [37:22]
B
Let's go ahead and start with the Blazers and go with that team as long as they can. Just stay in Portland.
- [37:28]
A
Well, look, I'm not going to get into the whole thing about whether this is all a bluff by a cheapskate owner who wants the city to pony up money for his arena or whether it's a real move. And I don't even know where they would move because that's one of the issues. But there's a. It's a very complicated standoff between, you know, the city, the state. A certain bucket of funding has already been sort of like kind of approved for the arena renovations to the Blazers. But there's this communication gap between what the Blazers want, what they're willing to accept and there's funding being held out. It's just a complete mess. How about the billionaire page for an arena? It's a wild thought. The Blazers over under is 43 and a half, which actually is higher than I expected it to be. Four higher than the warriors and four higher than the Suns. They're starting five I guess is going to be John Morant, Damian Lillard, Denny Abdia, Tumani, Kamara, Donovan Clingan off the bench, Scoot Henderson, Drew Holiday, Shaden Sharpe if he's in the rotation, backup five Robert Williams iii, Hansen Yang is here. You know there's some other guys V Kreche, Micah Potter, Sissoko, they don't really have a true backup for. This is a team that made its bones on defense last year. They were 12th in defense. They cannot shoot from anywhere. And in John Morant. You and I disagreed on this. Last time we had they were on. I thought this was a perfectly fine flyer for them to take on a high end talent that created some short term issues and challenges for them. I just, I don't know what to make of this team. 43 and a half surprised me. I thought it would be more like 41 and a half or 39 and a half.
- [39:03]
B
Yeah, and we should also mention they have a coach that's on a one year deal like prove it type deal in terms of going forward. And that's probably a story for another time, but that drove me nuts when that was announced. And because I like Mike Inori, I think he's almost kind of like the Ted Lasso of the NBA in a. In a large degree. But I think the thing that concerns me the most is just you just light laid out the starting five and only two of those guys play defense, right. And that's Donovan Klingon and it's Tomani Camaro after that. The other three guys need to have the ball exclusively in their hands to really dominate.
- [39:39]
A
I think. I think Abdia plays defense just less so as a blazer because he has been the point everything on offense for them and that has sapped his defense in the past. I've thought he was a perfectly fine
- [39:51]
B
defender, but it wasn't there last year. And I'm curious to see how, how he handles it. You know, the way we talk about Philly, like how does he handle less usage. Because Dame's going to eat into that and Ja's going to eat into that and both. Especially Ja. Not great off off ball in terms of you're not guarding him in terms of the spacing, so that's going to crowd you even more. And obviously you are guarding Dame when he's off ball, but he's not really great as an off ball guy. You know, he's so used to the ball being in his hands as part of the reason why it didn't really work so well in Milwaukee with him and Giannis in that pairing. And I'm just going to be fascinated to see how they kind of sort of paper over all of this stuff and it'd be interesting to see if, if they do tweak the starting lineup a little bit and add more defense in the back court somewhere. I don't know which one between Ja or Dame sits. If it's bad to guess, it's more likely Ja than Dame. But I think you're going to have to kind of figure it out where you're going to get those things from, because in the west on a nightly basis, just playing in the Western Conference, Shay, Gilgis, Alexander, the trio of spurs guards, Jamal Murray, you know where Steph Curry, like just the number of guards you have to deal with every night coming at you, I'd be worried about them. Yeah, they're going to put Kamara on him. Cool. That's going to open up other areas where they're going to be able to get attacked and, and leave them vulnerable. Last year they made their bones defensively. This year it's going to have to be totally just relying on offense. And I'm not sure if that's going to go the way they think it is, because I think that offense is going to have a little bit more trouble getting off the ground.
- [41:25]
A
I mean, again, they're a team that can't shoot from anywhere and they're counting on internal development. And certainly Scoot finished last season strong from three and just overall. And now on, on paper, he's back to a bench role as he's eligible for a contract extension. We'll see what that, what that brings. Yeah, the Jod Dame thing I don't think will work. I would put the over under on when they really have a come to Jesus moment about the starting five at like 14 and a half games. And I Don't know what happens. I don't know if it's a trade one way or the other. I don't know who would even get traded. They have a bunch of extra draft assets from Orlando and Milwaukee to play with so it makes them an interesting team to watch. But yeah, the offense is going to be. I think the jaw trade was a recognition of where they are as a team. Like yeah, last year was fun. It's not like we're contending. Let's take a shot at like a moonshot of if we actually can find the John Morant that was an all NBA player. That sets us up to be a more interesting team in three years, in two years than we are currently slated to be. And all it cost him was Jeremy Grant and Chris Murray, which is fine, whatever. I just like it. It does make me nervous when teams have it just in terms of short term win totals. When teams walk into seasons with like some pretty fundamental questions to ask and answer about themselves because it takes time in real games to answer those questions and sometimes it takes pain and I just don't know how the ball is going to be distributed offensively. How this team is going to defend at the same level they did last year under Thiago Splitter who was too expensive for them I guess. And just how they sort out this bench rotation that is again kind of heavy on guards and Shade and Sharp seems to fall in and out of the rotation all the time. It's a strange team that may not have cap room by the way, until depending on a bunch of variables including Scoot. Until the summer of 2028 when Abdia's deal is up and his cap hold is so low because his current salary is so low. And that's fine. I could see a world where this goes fine and they are a 500 team. I could see a world where it goes haywire for a bit and all of a sudden they're a 35 win team and that puts some other teams in play.
- [43:41]
B
What's your view of Scoop going forward? Like if you're them, how do you handle this? I don't know if this is a guy you drafted that you thought was going to be a starting level guard. His rookie season was derailed from the beginning with injuries and things like that. I'm a fan of Scoot. I'm. I own stock or own a house on the island. I don't know what we're. We're doing good straights alliteration Straight Scoot straights. You know, I'm still in the straight there and I think, you know, I'm just curious. So as the team going forward where he did, he did improve so much over the last season, especially at the end of the season, I'm curious to say, like, okay, now we're going to move him back to the bench. It's a little bit stunting his growth. Where do you go with that? Like, what's the plan? Like, I, I don't know if you can go give him a contract extension at this point. And how do you sort of continue with his development? Like, I'm just kind of perplexed a little bit with like, what's the plan for Scoop Henderson as you go forward?
- [44:42]
A
Well, what was so interesting about him last year? And I like you, I, I kind of never gave up hope on him because he has, he has stuff in his game that is hard to find, a rhythmic stuff, change of pace stuff for us. Although he's never been as good a finisher, explosive a finisher as you at the rim, as you think. But the turnovers have been a disaster and the jumper has been up and down to say the least. And what was so interesting about last year was that he kind of wasn't a point guard anymore. He became an off guard, slash hybrid guard with Denny Abdia running the offense and among others. And it's set up to be that way again. And that's fine if that's his destiny as a player. He could be very good at that and shot the ball well and had some good playoff games for them. To answer your question, I'm not entertaining an extension if I'm the Blazers unless he's willing to take a deal that's wildly below market because I've looked at the cap room situation this summer and I'm not afraid and of a team overpaying him. And if the team does overpay him, it means he's had a great season and I'll pay him and if not, I'll get into a Jalen Duran, Peyton Watson restricted free agency standoff and you know, we'll see what happens. But it's just a strange, it's a strange team. I am a believer in Abdia. I think what Abdia showed last year offensively was real and that's what makes the Morant Dam wild card so interesting. Is, does he, does he get to show that again or is it actually sort of better for him and the team to settle into a role that still he has the ball a lot but maybe not quite as much and he can get more spot up threes, attack closeouts a little bit more. But I thought the scoring was completely legit and he was an all NBA almost borderline level player. And I think that's real.
- [46:25]
B
No, that's definitely real. Like what he showed last year is sustained through the whole season, you know. And it wasn't just a matter of get. It was getting downhill but also putting the pressure on the defense and getting to the line. Right. Like I think that was a key part of it and it's just the constant pressure that he applies is something he can continue to do. You know they nicknamed him Turbo for a reason. Right. Like he's just going to fly down the hill and get going and get down the lane and go from there. And I think that's something that he can recreate. I think he's going to look, we're going to look to see more of that in transition from him. But I am curious to see again it's how does that fit with ja1 like if I'm the opposing defense, cool. I'm going to let Ja bomb away from three and I'm just going to crowd the paint some more. At this point. Advi is used to it because that was last season. Right. They, they didn't address it any anymore this season. And then you have Dame who can stretch the floor, but he's also going to want the ball in his hands a lot. So there's kind of just figuring out sort of the, the way this is going to go offensively because I think the worst case scenario for really any team is my turn, your turn, his turn. When you have three guys, I think generally leads to a lot of difficulty offensively finding any fluidity and finding any sort of flow. And I think that's going to be something that they got to stay away from. But they have three guys that are my turn, your turn, his turn. And I think that's something I'm kind of just want to see what they put together offensively going into the season.
- [47:59]
A
I'm excited to watch them and I am very excited to see Damian Lillard play basketball in Portland again. I think that first game is going to be awesome and I can't wait to see that. Phoenix, last year's Feel good story 45 and 37 got smacked around in the first round by the Thunder. Retained well they retained a lot of their guys but they also their one big trade was Royce o' Neill and Grayson Allen both like sometimes starters, sometimes backups for them in an unprotected 2033 pick to Charlotte for Miles Bridges and a not good 20, 29 first round pick. That's like the lesser of a bunch of picks. Their starting five I think will be jail on paper would be Jalen Green, Devin Booker, Dylan Brooks, Miles Bridges and Mark Williams. So no true point guard really in the bunch. The truest point guard on the team is Colin Gillespie. Wouldn't shock me if at some point he butts his way back into the starting five. Just his, his stability, his three point shooting. I thought he was great last year. The deal that they brought him back on is a great deal. But, but for now I think that's what they want to start. I think they need to figure out what they have in Jalen Green. He has a $36 million player option for 27, 28 and that's one of the biggest wild cards in the league. So off the bench would be Gillespie, Luke Canard. That's a nice deal. And this is now where the young guys take the place of the Grayson Allen and Royce o' Neal types. Rasheer Fleming is going to have to play. Ryan Dunn will play. Iguidaro and Malawat will play some at the four for Iguodoro, some at the five. It's, it's a, we didn't even mention Jordan Goodwin who's, who's a very, was a very good bench guard for them. They, they are, they are. I'm a believer in Fleming. I think he's going to be solid. Iguidaro is a decent playmaker, switchy defender whose lack of, lack of anything on offense kind of handicaps him a little bit. And he's a terrible foul shooter. He's a solid player that their depth I think is a reason for optimism. Their over under is 39 and a half which is 4 lower than the Blazers. That surprised me a little bit because I think their depth is pretty powerful. I just don't like, I don't see like a ton of upside here. I'm just very curious to see what this team follows up. A 45 win season where again, like the Blazers, they were a defense. First team, they were ninth on defense. Some shooting luck was baked into that and I just, you know, I don't know that the Bridges thing is worth what they paid for it. And I don't think he's going to help their rebounding which was pretty bad last year. And the Jalen Green thing is going to be it, it could. If they're going to start him, it could make or break their season.
- [50:37]
B
Yeah. And I Think one thing that you didn't really mention is just the big man rotation, you know, like, you're not getting. Mark Williams took a step back defensively in terms of rebounding. 2 fewer rebounds per game a night with, with the way this from the previous season. And then you got to hope Malawatch pays off like, and takes the leap as a big man in terms of what you're going. Because I thought that was something that really hurt them. And like you said, Bridges isn't really a good rebounder and that's something you need to kind of build upon. Like, their, their big man rotation leaves me wanting. Like, I. This is something. I like the guards they have. I love the guys they have off the bench. When you laid off, when you. You ran off all those names, you know, and I was waiting. I was sitting here waiting, like, is he going to say good one? Is he going to say good one? Can I just jump in?
- [51:21]
A
I think is the inside track to be their 15th man. He gave them good minutes last year when they called on him.
- [51:25]
B
Like their guard rotations and like, how. How good all their guards are is pretty impressive. But I just, I wish they can just turn some of those guys into big men. And I think they need to have some sort of big guy that really will present themselves, at least on the terms of like, yo, I'm going to clean up the glass. I don't. I don't need much. I just need somebody that's going to dominate the glass for them in one way, shape or form. And then when we talk about shooting, look like Dylan Brooks was making unbelievable shots last season. Right? Like, and can he do that again? Like, I don't know. And sort of baking that in and looking into next season for this team, you know, I. You're right. When Jalen Green is probably the make or break, if he's a guy that can start for them. But when it comes down to who's going to create for Devin Booker and if he has to do everything and create on his own, it becomes really difficult for him and especially when he has to create for others. Because I like book one, it's just, hey, man, I have somebody setting me up. There's no. There's a reason why they went to the finals when they had Chris Paul beyond eight and playing great during that run. But CP was able to set up Booker a ton. But they don't have a setup man for Booker anymore. And we've seen him kind of drop off each season when he doesn't have a guy like that. And I think that's something that worries me when we look at this team.
- [52:41]
A
Do you remember Pop Quizmo, what team Deandre Ayton is currently on?
- [52:46]
B
Oh, I did just. Oh, God. Obviously not the Lakers. Oh, my God. I just. Oh, God.
- [52:54]
A
I. I have to remind myself every time his name comes in. There you go. Point. We'll give you. I don't think the Jeopardy. Buzzer sounded quite yet. On. On your. On your.
- [53:06]
C
I just knew.
- [53:06]
B
I was like, he's a backup somewhere. I was like, oh, God. Okay.
- [53:10]
A
I just look at this team some. Like, I have their depth target right here. Sometimes I look at them like, I like this team. It's pretty deep. I think Bridges will be all right for them. He's kind of a jack of all trades kind of player who might function better in this environment. They need a little bounce. They need a little more size at the 4. I get it. And then I'll look away and I'll look back and I'm like, I don't know, what is this? They owe all these picks, including 2031 and 2033, unprotected picks. Like, to what end? They look, in the end, just very average to me. And that's probably just what they are, an average team. And by the way, that's fine if they've dug out of this. This morass that they were in after Beal and during. Beal's money is still on the books. And Durant to be average with some interesting young players in Fleming and Malawatch and Iguidaro and Dunn and Booker still, like, not old. And Jalen Green, maybe. You know, Bridges is in the same sort of age range as Booker and so is Brooks. Like, that's a. That's a fun, youngish team. That's totally fine. I just still don't really know where it's going. And I think there's going to be nights where it looks great and nights where it looks a little ugly. And they just look like a team that'll be like, 15th on offense, 15th on defense, 41 and 41. And that, again, opens the door for like, God forbid there's an injury setback. All of a sudden it's like, wait, are the Pelicans going to be the
- [54:34]
B
eighth seed in the West?
- [54:35]
A
What's happening right now?
- [54:37]
B
Well, you know, the one thing too, with Phenix, though, is. And we can. This is what they were last season. Every night they're going to play their asses off. They have a bunch of guys that play extremely hard, right? So you're in a dogfight each night. Any team that comes in a little bit lackadaisical is going to find themselves in a fight the moment they step on the floor.
- [54:57]
A
And now, now the league knows that. And I don't think they knew that last year. And maybe that's worth a half a win less or whatever than it was. By the way, should also be noted Jalen Green has the player option. I said Dylan Brooks and Miles Bridges are both extension eligible. Now, I would bet on both of them getting an extension or at least having some pretty serious talks. You factor in all three of those guys on the books for next year. They're basically at the second apron for a team that isn't good enough to be at the second apron. So we'll see. Last team in the west that is not in this tier is hovering way above this tier. The Denver Nuggets, who have had a little bit of an inactive off season. They signed this guy Diallo from Europe. They signed Marvin Bagley as a backup center. They re signed Spencer Jones after just an absolutely devilish maneuver. I mean, literally, presti as Mr. Burns.
- [55:48]
B
Excellent.
- [55:50]
A
Fingertips touching. Excellent. Oh, we've opened up 6 million under the cap. Who do we like? Spencer Jones. Would that really fuck Denver?
- [55:59]
B
It would.
- [55:59]
A
Let's do it. And they did it in the Nuggets match. And now they have Peyton Watson hanging in the wind as a restricted free agent. I don't know that really anything has happened there other than some talks that have led nowhere. Some people around the league have speculated, like, do the Nuggets actually want Peyton Watson to take his qualifying offer of six and a half million dollars, in which case he'd be an unrestricted free agent after next season. Actually don't think that they want that. And they should definitely not want that because if they're going to keep their window open. And it was a popular topic, including here when they got eliminated into the first round last year. Like, is this it is. It just is the window just closed? Given Aaron Gordon's endless injury issues, it's pretty close to close. Closed. I just can't slam it shut as long as Jokic is healthy and among the best three players in the league. So I'm going to open it a crack. Still. It might. The crack might be like San Antonio or Oklahoma City. Has to run into some issues at the right time for the Nuggets. But look, the Nuggets played the spurs well last year. So I'm keeping it a crack open if you want to really open it. Up. Peyton Watson is exactly the kind of player that you need. You watch the spurs and the Thunder play young, athletic, long, ferocious athleticism, physicality. That's all Peyton Watson. He's got flaws in his game. We'll see if the three point shot is real. He showed some ball handling, pick and roll stuff when Jokic and everyone else on the team was heard. We'll see how real that is. Yes, there's a risk of overpaying him. I get it. The Nuggets are like, like way they're aproned out already with potential to be way aproned out. They're looking at a tax bill that the Cronkies have never even sniffed before. I don't know, man. Like there's a world. What if they just actually paid all these guys? What if they kept Cam Johnson and Christian Brown and resigned Baden Watson and just actually bit the bullet for a year? Is that really so bad? Cronies. What if they kept them all with the idea of. And this is another theory I've heard floated. Well, we'll just. If we have to cut money, we'll figure it out at the trade deadline. That's a risky game because teams have you over a barrel. But if they resign Peyton Watson, their starting five is Murray Brown, Cam Johnson, Aaron Gordon, Nicole Jokic. Maybe Watson moves into a starting spot under his new deal for Aaron Gordon. Maybe give Aaron Gordon an easier life off the bench for Christian Brown. Maybe go big for Cam Johnson. Maybe, who was just okay last year. That starting five, by the way, only played in 23 games last year and was wildly effective when they played off the bench. Gets a little dice here, Mo a little dice here. Tyus Jones is back. Strothers Straits. I guess I can't have multiple straights. I guess I can't have Scoot straights because I have Strother straights.
- [58:41]
B
We got to find a new one for Scoot I own.
- [58:44]
A
There's nobody else on Straw the Straits. It's me and whoever I. Well, I was about to say it's me and whoever I invite to the Straits. We're not going to go there. Spencer Jones, Peyton Watson, Marvin Bagley, Najee's still here, et cetera. Somehow Zeke Najee is still here. The bench is shaky, but less so if they they will stagger Murray and Jokic when it matters. Watson can eat up a lot of minutes if they bring him back. I think it's like a must to bring him back. I like Jones a lot. It's a good team and I'm not Closing the window. I'm just not. But TBD on what they do. If they really, if Peyton Watson takes the qualifying offer and leaves, that's a, that's a, that's not great for the Denver Nuggets.
- [59:25]
B
If they don't resign Peyton Watson and I mean, if they don't have him on the roster next season, I'm closing the window. Like, I think that's, that's fair. I just don't. I think they absolutely need him. I think, you know, unless you're going to get a bounce back season from Christian Brown and he's going to live up to the contract that he has now, that kicks in this season at 25 a year, I don't see a way for them to really. And I love Jokic. I want to see him at that level. But we look at Aaron Gordon's injury history at this point and even Watson only played at 58 games last season. Like, there's still concerns with that. But what we saw when he played, especially when they didn't have anybody pretty much on the floor, he was like, showed a lot of growth. Now we have to see it again to say, okay, it's real and we have to see it sustained over longer periods of time. But I think you absolutely have to have him back for them to really have a legitimate chance because I think he does such a great job. I'm going to be the point of attack defender. And assuming Aaron Gordon is healthy, Aaron Gordon could then take the big guys and that takes a lot of pressure off of Jokic defensively in terms of what they have to deal with. And I think that's an important thing to kind of pay attention to. I think Cam Johnson is going to have a better season his second time around with the Nuggets. I likened it a lot to Richard Jefferson's second season with the Spurs. First season wasn't really good. It was a little bit complicated when he came out.
- [60:48]
A
I don't know, I don't know who should be more insulted by that, Richard Jefferson or Cam Johnson. RJ can, RJ can, RJ can weigh in on this.
- [60:55]
B
It wasn't meant to be an insult. I was there. I was when RJ got there.
- [60:59]
A
So the coaching was the problem then.
- [61:02]
B
You're just trying to get me into all sorts of trouble right now in all of this. And I see that little smile you have. But I think the way I look at it though is I think second time around with a little more understanding of the system and how to play, I think goes a Long way for Cam Johnson. I. Depth is an issue for them. You know, the, the Jonas Valentuna stuff didn't work last season. Bagley's not an upgrade in that scenario for, for the Nuggets. But I think they have to kind of figure out how they're going to get this thing going. But I think they got to have Watson. That's got to be the starting point. Krocke's got to bite the bullet. Well, hey, like just paint.
- [61:41]
A
I think if it costs you, if it ends up costing you Cam Johnson's expiring deal, it's just a matter of like they don't really have any picks that are available to trade. So I'm not sure how they even incentivize teams. Christian Brown's deal runs through 2031. It runs through like eternity.
- [61:57]
B
That's a rough deal.
- [61:58]
A
It could, but it also, in six months it could look okay again if he shoots the three ball better and plays up to his potential. This is, look, you have Nikola Jokic. You should be trying to win. And they own 1700 sports teams, some of whom are presumably very profitable. They should be just fine footing the
- [62:16]
B
bill and hopefully the Rams win the super bowl and they, they could. That's where the excess money can come in.
- [62:21]
A
Yeah, enough. It's enough. I just attended a Dodgers Mets game where the Mets just.
- [62:27]
B
It was.
- [62:27]
A
Well, I talk about it later with Sean
- [62:31]
B
and.
- [62:31]
A
But I think Peyton Watson is important enough that if it costs you one of your other key players, then it, because of your mandate to save money, then that's what it costs you. I think Peyton Watson needs to be on the team and if he's not next year, that'll be problematic. And Aaron Gordon, look, I mean, people are putting Aaron Gordon into these fake trades. I'm just telling you he makes $32 million, $35 million and $37 million on a player option in 2029. His health issues are not a secret. I love Aaron Gordon. I'm like the president of the Aaron Gordon fan club. He has lived out his greatest basketball destiny playing with Nikola Yoko, just his right hand man. The league knows about his health issues. The rest of the teams know about his health issues. I'm just not sure how tradable that contract actually is. And so we'll have to see, but I'm not. Look, the Thunder lost some depth and are going to rely on some young guys. And losing some depth doesn't hurt that much for them because they're already so deep. But it does make them even more vulnerable to an ill timed injury. Spurs are still pretty young. Nuggets played them well. I'm not shutting the window until I until I have to with the Nuggets and Nicole Jokic and Bagley was good for the Wizards last year. Mo, I don't know how you know defensively not super viable but he eats eats up rebounds.
- [63:51]
B
I mean it's being good for the Wizards isn't necessarily going to get you to ready to go in the conference finals in the west or even the finals though.
- [64:01]
A
Hey look man over under for the Wizards 35 and a half Trey Young's talking about. We're putting the Wizards back on the map. Anthony Davis presumably is aware that he plays for the Wizards and will report to camp in the right city when the season starts. Look out for the Wiz, baby. Look out.
- [64:17]
B
I like AJ I'm excited for AJ I'm ready to see all we can get from there.
- [64:23]
A
I'm excited for all these rookies. This is going to be a tremendous rookie class. I can't wait to see some of these teams. All right, Mo De Kill Double Dribble podcast. We've got you on the ringer a lot. You're doing stuff for Bleacher Report now and then you got a twitch stream. You and Jaylen Brown are carrying twitch on your shoulders like Atlas.
- [64:40]
B
Actually, I've actually just, I've given it up to Jaylen Brown. Okay. The twitch stream is done. I, I, he's, he surpassed me in a way where I can't even mention it.
- [64:49]
A
Anything else we need to mention?
- [64:51]
B
Videos on offside, here and there.
- [64:53]
A
Offside.
- [64:53]
B
That's right. From, from time to time. But offseason there's probably not going to be a lot for me there and, and really just getting ready. And next time, Zach, you see me, the chalkboard's probably going to be gone because I'm going to be in my actual office. I'm going to have a studio, my own little studio coming up soon.
- [65:09]
A
I love that. I'm not sure when I will next to you because we're heading out on vacation soon to Europe and I wish the Dodgers nothing but bad luck between now and the end of the season. And, and I will, I will talk to you soon.
- [65:23]
B
Mo. If I have to text you if we trade for school,
- [65:28]
A
don't. How about let me tell you right now, Mo, you guys trade for Skubo and you send me a text message. It's not getting returned. I'm not returning it. So just prepare yourself now for a non response Mode to kill. Thanks, bud.
- [65:39]
B
Thank you.
- [65:41]
A
Stream the biggest moments in Sports live on Fox 1. The biggest names, the biggest games, the biggest matchups. Watch live or catch up on your schedule at home or on the go. Never miss a Moment. All on Fox 1. Stream now. All right, it's time for our last Mets corner before I head on to vacation in Europe. We're recording this on Monday evening, July 27th. The trade deadline is approaching and Sean Fennesee I normally bring a microphone and a camera to Europe because there's always one super dramatic NBA story potentially hovering bubbling below the surface. It was Giannis last summer. It's been KD before LeBron just signed. We are poised, it seems for the first dead ish NBA August September in a long time. But I'm bringing my stuff anyway because it does not seem like we are poised for a calm trade deadline in Mets land. In that, in that vein, can I interest you in this Freddie Peralta bobblehead that was the giveaway on Saturday for the first 20,000 fans on the night I threw out the first pitch. It's going to be a collector's item very soon because for frame Freddie went out and did his thing the next day, baby. Any interest that we picked up four
- [66:54]
C
of them, I, I personally will pass. But I do think we will be asking 15 to 18 clubs around major League Baseball whether or not they would be interested in Freddie Peralta's body in some form or fashion. So yeah, that's incredible and they really should have found a way to pivot off of that giveaway day. But nevertheless we endure any.
- [67:16]
A
Then he pitched the next day four innings and the Mets got a W. Anyway, Tyrone Taylor who seems to just hit home runs every time we play him and Marcus Simeon woke up from a season long coma and hit a three or he's actually has 11 home runs. That's about all he's done Is hit those 11 home runs and the Mets beat the Dodgers.
- [67:31]
B
They're good.
- [67:32]
A
They're playing. Who are we playing right now? We're playing somebody right now as we record this.
- [67:35]
C
The Atlanta Braves.
- [67:37]
A
I'm sure that'll go great.
- [67:38]
C
First place Atlanta Braves.
- [67:40]
A
We will talk a little bit about my experience throwing the first pitch in a game that the Mets lost in like just every. I'm just, I'm glad that I took my dad and my daughter and my wife and some friends to a game that really summarized the experience of the 2026 Mets. Embarrassing errors, embarrassing pass balls. Brett Beatty just throwing the ball all around the field at various positions, none of which he can play adequately. No clutch hitting at all to speak of until the game was 41 Dodgers and the Mets. Fake came back and got back in it. Juan Soto filled a cameo, filmed a cameo with, in an Emma Stone movie and now is out with a calf injury and is asking, answering questions about whether he's even going to come back at some point this season. And he says he is. It's going great, Sean. It's really going great. And you, you are, you are curious if this trade deadline even ends up being perhaps bigger than or should be perhaps bigger than, than many people think it might be.
- [68:39]
C
Let's talk about, let's talk about all the different permutations that we could get right because it is a pretty important six day stretch here that we're going to have with the team. It's probably the last important six day stretch we're going to have with this team until we get to the off season. And even then there's no guarantee that we're getting baseball next year. So you could make the case that the next six days are the most important week for the Mets for the next 18 months. That's in play and that's upsetting to think about, but it's, it's definitely possible and there's a lot of different directions that they could go. There's, I think most of the insiders in baseball have clearly demarcated. Well, here are the seven or eight players that are probably available for the New York Mets. David Stearns and Mets brass have indicated, well, there's like five, maybe six players that are currently untouchable on our roster. But that doesn't account for every single player on the roster. And I gotta say, for a team that's 19 games under.500, it doesn't seem like there are a few tweaks away from being back in contention next year. And so I'm feeling like are there maybe much more dramatic things that need to be done to radically alter what we're doing? It's possible that that's not possible. But let's just start with the people who we know we don't want traded. I'm going to name the people and you tell me I'll keep naming names and you say stop when I've named someone who you think should be traded. Okay.
- [69:59]
A
Should be. Okay, yeah.
- [70:00]
C
Carson Bench. Juan Soto. Nolan McLean, Christian Scott. A.J. ewing, Zach Thornton. Francisco Lindor. Francisco Alvarez. Luis Terenz.
- [70:21]
B
Ooh.
- [70:22]
A
Okay. No, keep going, keep going. My daughter loves him too much.
- [70:25]
C
Okay, that's nine players that I've just named Luke Weaver now.
- [70:30]
A
Okay, so you know that I have a, I, I, I, I have this vision of how do we thread this needle of being sellers in what has been an all time cataclysmic season that is long over and still acknowledging that we have one of the five best hitters on the planet and that's probably too high of a number in his prime on our team next year, meaning we should compete. And it seems like likely not certain that also a Hall of Fame level shortstop will be on our team in his early to mid-30s next season. And so that was why I was like, well, this Luke Weaver guy, man, he seems awesome. He's like, he had million scoreless innings in a row. If we want it, if we want to compete next year, don't we need guys like that? And then I've actually talked to some baseball experts over the last couple of weeks. I went to a game, I met some people and they're like, you know, relievers are just kind of like, if you can sell high on a reliever, you just generally should because they're so volatile. And so I've been swayed by that. Alvarez. I am on team. Don't trade Alvarez. And I understand he's frustrated. He swings at a lot of bad pitches. He's young and he has power and he plays catcher. And I don't really even care that he plays catcher poorly on defense because I wore the jersey of a horrible defensive catcher onto the mound at Citi Field to throw my first pitch because Mike Piazza was just that damn good as a hitter. Alvy's not in that, in that range. But, you know, the question you're basically asking is like, if that's, if, if the line is Luke Weaver, are we going to get enough stuff for this to be a real sell off? And like, what's actually the pivot next year? Is Boba Shet on the team next year? Is he better than Luis Robert Jr. Jorge Polanco has done? I mean, literally nothing, not one thing of any significance. Like, so is that enough? And that's the question you're asking. Does it need to be more?
- [72:18]
C
Yeah, I mean, there's just a quagmire. There's a big question about Lindor, which you and I have talked about the last two Mets corners. I think it's both an untradable contract and a bad time to trade him. So I don't think that that's necessarily a key conversation point. But there's a weird thing about this team, which is there have just been roughly six awful major league expensive contracts either given out or traded for on the books. And we don't really know what to do because if you look down the line next year, the team has over $230 million in payroll already committed. In two years, they still have over 150 and including opt ins, potentially 180 plus million dollars on the books. This is a team, Zach, that's going to struggle to win 70 games. This is insane that they have this much long term money committed to a horrible core right now.
- [73:06]
A
And I didn't even, I didn't even bother to do the math of what our record updated record since we were 45 and 24 last season. And so to your point, like this is just a flat out bad team. It's 200 games plus of just. You're bad. You're really, really bad. And you can say, well, everybody got injured. This guy inexplicably slumped. Frankie Montage isn't even on the freaking team anymore. So much. But like that's how teams get bad is like a lot of things go wrong all at the same time. And it's been going wrong for a baseball season and a quarter. I don't know, it's. It's just like they're just not good. Yeah.
- [73:40]
C
I sent you this note. Someone tweeted this. And I'll, I'll add an addendum to the tweet. It was about the fact that Boba Shet, Jorge Polanco, Marcus Semian, Sean Mania, Devin Williams, Kodai Senga, and if you include Frankie Montas, that's seven players who are currently making a total of $160 million this year have accounted for 0.8 WAR.
- [74:02]
B
0.8.
- [74:04]
C
You know, that doesn't even, it's. That's not even one win above replacement. That's insane.
- [74:10]
A
And Mania's been actually okay, he's been two months now to the point where I'm okay with him being $22 million next year. It is embarrassing to your point that in the coming labor struggle, the Mets are being used, the Mets own incompetence is being used by the players union as evidence that a salary cap is not actually necessary. Despite the. They are the flip side of the Dodgers dominance. And you combine that with a bunch of low payroll teams like the Guardians and the White Sox, etcetera, performing really well this year. And the Mets are like the post. The Mets are, through their own embarrassing performance are being used as a tool in the CBA disagreement Of like maybe a salary cap's not necessary. Look at these idiots. They spend all the money in the world and they suck.
- [74:53]
C
I never in a million years thought we would have been here when Stearns was hired three, three off seasons ago. Never in a million years. I'm shocked now. Some of the, some of what I just shared with you is bad luck. You know, it's bad luck that Kodai Senga got hurt and just has never been the best the player he was. It's bad luck that Montas got hurt. It's bad luck that Polanco and has has been as hurt as he has been. Even though you could have seen that before the signing. I think there's the Marcus Semian question is, is really tricky and it's really bothering me, Zach. And one of the things that I do when I watch the games is I think to myself what can happen here that will make me happy?
- [75:34]
A
Because what a question to ask.
- [75:38]
C
Marcus Semian is 35 years old. Obviously he was traded for Brandon Nimmo in an effort to clear the final two years of Nimmo's deal and also to make space in the outfield for these prospects who are rising up. Ben started the season with the team. AJ Ewing came up quickly, proved himself a major leaguer. Nick Morabito is still in AAA right now. He's somebody who's potentially part of the team. We've got Juan Soto, we've got Tyrone Taylor as reborn as Hack Wil. So like I get that move. I'm not necessarily debating that move specifically but literally Marcus Semyon, who is I think the worst position player in baseball, has two years and $50 million left on his contract. I'm going to keep saying this on Mets corner for the next two years. Like that is a fuck ton of money to be paying to somebody who literally should not be in the lineup. I mean he is not, despite that three run home run that you're citing, he is, he's a negative. He is literally a negative at the plate and he's. His defense has been deteriorating all season and so it's really hard to even invest. I like actually like investing in the sort of like let's watch the kids narratives. We've had a lot of met seasons where the second half has been just kind of a like let's get a look at what we have under the hood here. Who are the players who can come up and play for us. But it feels as though there has been some tacit agreement made between Semyon and the front office that he is, no matter what, the everyday second baseman. And despite his injury a couple of weeks ago, the plan was for him to play 162 games this year. That's inexplicable to me. Inexplicable. And I don't know what it says about what the long term strategy is going to be for the team, but if we're making agreements like that with players who should not be on the field, and we're making guys like Brett Beatty, who is a much more natural second baseman than he is first baseman, play first base, you're meaningfully undermining the potential success of the team. So I don't know. I know that's a very small drop in the bucket relative to this disaster this year, but it itches at me every time I watch them.
- [77:33]
A
Well, look, I mean, you're, you mentioned Beatty and I just was looking up like, how often has he played second base in the past? He's played it quite a bit. I'll tell you right now. He can't play any of the positions that he's playing right now. He cannot play first. He is a freaking walking disaster at first base. He hit a. I can't. And then in the outfield, you know, we have all these outfielders, we have actual five, six outfielders now that Luis Robert Jr. Is back. And you and I were both watching the brewers game last week. I was watching with my daughter. Fly ball to deep Christian Scott, who's been just a workhorse, a godsend. Let's put him in the rotation. And still next season is about to get out of a jam. Long fly ball to right field, hit pretty hard, but it's a fly ball that you have to catch. And our, our right fielder and I had just flipped on the game half an inning before. Our right fielder, who I thought was Benj, is like staggering back, switching directions, tripping over his own feet, reaching out at the last minute for a ball that he's taken a horrible angle on and it drops in the warning track and hits the wall and it's a double and everybody scores. And I'm, I'm like, my daughter and I are watching together. I'm like, man, that's not, that's unlike Carson bench. That didn't even look like Carson bench. And of course it was Brett Beatty and my 11 year old daughter, not me. My daughter says to me, why is Beatty playing the outfield? And I'm going through all the names of the outfielders we have, including Taylor, who's on the bench Because God forbid we play him against the right handed pitcher. Because Brett Beatty just has to play. He's so ferocious offensively, his left handed bat has to be in the lineup. Despite that he cost us a game of the field. My 11 year old daughter, ask the question, why is Brett Beatty playing the outfield? Honey, I don't know, but we're about to lose this goddamn game too.
- [79:14]
C
I think that my instinct on that is there's either two answers to that question. One is they're trying to show that Brett Beatty is a very versatile player and playing him frequently to up his trade value or they're making, they're making an effort, knowing this is a lost season, to teach him how to play those positions and give him more exposure to them so, so that he is a super utility player.
- [79:36]
A
This is like the NBA, man. You're not a versatile defender. Just because you're bad at every position, that doesn't make you versatile.
- [79:42]
C
I know you're right.
- [79:43]
A
But Simeon stinks. So put Beatty at second. Maybe he stinks a little less. And you were at a restaurant, you told me and the waiter said the same thing to you, right? Like what is, what is happening? Why is he leaving the restaurant?
- [79:55]
C
Last Wednesday night at the same night of the game that you're describing and the first thing the guy said, this is in Los Angeles. This isn't. He just, he grabbed me by the arm, he said, why the hell is Brett Beatty playing right field? And I didn't know what to say to him. I don't what the team is just an absolute farce. And I am so confused. I'm so confused how it could have gone this poorly. I really, I don't know where they're supposed to go now. I think there's maybe two schools of thought here in terms of like dealing guys because they're going to make deals, right? Brooks really is going to be traded any minute. AJ Mentor is going to be traded any minute. I think there's a good chance Weaver gets dealt and they're going to be try to compile as many top 100 prospects as they can. If you were the front office of this team, would you say, well, we've got Soto and he'll be going in his age 28 season next year. And we've got all these young guys, you know, who are not even at arbitration yet. So that's all very cost managed. Those other players that Sean was bitching about, those are a sunk cost, right? It's over. We made those commitments. Don't worry about that would you try to acquire as many close to the big leagues prospects as possible or would you just try to acquire best player available and then consider dealing those prospects in the off season for major league ready players to compete in 2027?
- [81:09]
A
The latter, I think. I think everything has to be aimed at trying to get this team back to being something next season. If you're going to have Soto And Lindor and McClain, who's clearly ready for big things on the team next year, I would aim everything at that. But again, I'm, I'm just an idiot. I mean, I don't know what the other path is like. I mean, I guess if you get major league ready prospects and you just. Baseball is weird. If you just have a bunch of good players on your team that's very, very powerful. So I'm open to either path. But I would aim more towards something that helps us flip for guys in the short term that can coincide with maybe a nice 2027, 2028 season.
- [81:51]
C
I think you're right and I think a lot of this season can be chalked up to bad luck too. Bad strategy for sure. But just like, you know, Soto and Lindor playing six combined games together this year or whatever it is, the fact that Bichette cannot be worse and you know he's going to opt in after this season and he, he simply cannot be worse. He has been, after coming alive in June, he's been honestly one of the least impressive hitters in the whole sport this month. Zach. It's crazy.
- [82:18]
A
So I have a couple of, a couple of things I just. On Lindor, we're going through it right now in our house because she's aware, my daughter, that there is a possibility he'll be traded. And she's gone through several phases of dealing with this. Phase one was, well, I won't be a Mets fan anymore. I'll be a fan of whatever team Lindor is traded for, if a fan at all. And I said, well, that, that hurts me. I think you should stick with the Mets. Phase two was I will cheer for the Mets and whatever team Lindor is traded to, even if it's the Yankees, because they do need a shortstop and there's been, I don't. There can't be a world where the Mets trade a player of this caliber to the Yankees, right? Like that has to be a nonstarter.
- [83:03]
C
I don't think that they're a match in terms of the prospects that the Yankees have available to deal. But never say never.
- [83:11]
A
And then I said, to her, that's not acceptable. You cannot cheer for the New York Yankees to have success even if they have Francisco Lindor on their team. What you can do is root for the Mets, root for his individual success and root for the Yankees to fail. And she accepted that as a compromise in the rare event that Lindor gets traded to. But if Lindor gets traded to like the Padres, she's going to be a Padres fan and a Mets fan. I think I have to accept that. I think this is an acceptable trade with an 11 year old girl who's two years into being a baseball fan and fell in love with this one particular player.
- [83:47]
C
You gotta start getting her on that AJ Ewing, Carson, Benji drip.
- [83:52]
A
You know, she goes, she in the car yesterday on the way. We were on the way to meet a friend in Westchester. She was like daddy and Mommy, do you want to hear my rankings of like my favorite Mets? And it's Lindor and then it, then Torrens. She just has a sauce up for Torrens and then Ben, Benj and Ewing are three, four. She loves. She's all in on those guys.
- [84:10]
C
That's what it's about too is, you know, as, as I love Francis Will Indore too. But when I was a young fan, I was getting addicted to guys who I was watching debut in their rookie seasons. And one of my great joys as a fan was watching David Wright and Jose Reyes come up and watching them blossom into stars. I was older at that point in my life, but having a real genuine connection. Obviously we went through this with Pete Alonso as well, who we lost in the off season. I hope she sticks with it. I want her to stick with it. I think that there is. Well, listen. I was listening to Bill and his dad talk on Bill's show today and
- [84:46]
A
I haven't gotten to that part yet. I'm still in the house, the house section.
- [84:49]
C
They. They tried to spend as much time on the Red Sox as they possibly could to avoid talking about the Jalen Brown trade, which I understood from their perspective, but I found amusing. But they did talk about the moment when Nomar Garcia para was traded, which was of course a very, you know, a tremendously important moment in Red Sox history that eventually got them off the Schneide and they went on to win in 04. But before that happened, I think it was the off season before Nomar was traded mid season where there was a lot of talk of him being traded. And then he started the season and he was kind of. Didn't seem right. His kind of his head wasn't on straight. He was kind of making mistakes and maybe he'd been losing some of his athleticism and there was a lot of talk about was he maybe going on the downside and they dealt him and then dealing him ultimately led to putting together the, that that legendary team that came back against the Yankees and won the title. But I see some modest parallels between Nomar and Lindor there and I like Lindor and I don't want him to be traded but he does seem off and he does seem a little unhappy and he does have a very large contract and that, that would be the most earth shaking thing they would do. They're not going to deal any young pitching. That obviously makes no sense. I don't think they're going to deal Juan Soto. I don't think that's ever going to come up. He does have an opt out in a few years. Let us not forget that. I'll be very curious to see what happens with that opt out. I doubt he's going to opt out because the Mets essentially have the option to retain him and if they pay him a significant amount more money. But it just feels like they're very far away and I don't know how you fix it in a short period of time.
- [86:23]
A
They're so bad that it pains me to say it. Nothing would even in the NBA if this were the NBA, which I realized it's a completely different game where one guy can impact winning at such a more dramatic level than in baseball. There would like 100% be Juan Soto trade rumors even though he has a no trade clause. As does Lindor. As does like apparently a third of Major League Baseball. But I don't, I don't think we're there either. I don't expect. Seems like selling low on Lindor is. Is after just a nightmare season of injuries. Injuries atop injuries just doesn't seem like a smart move. I will say first of all the Mets have done everything possible to keep my daughter a Mets fan. Like I can't, I can't say enough about how well they have treated us. The few games that we've went there, including on Saturday when I threw out the first pitch like the whole staff was. I'm going to just name check Jordan, Kara, Sam, Mr. Met Zach. They were all just like amazing. My daughter's been able to stand on Citi Field twice and like be pretty close to Lindor. We were 10ft away from Steven Cohen. Steven Cohen was in his seat as I was preparing to go out on the Mound. And I was like, the journalist in me should go introduce myself, make a connection, exchange numbers, whatever. And I was like, I'm just, I'm nervous for the pitch, which I will get to. And I also feel negatively about the team right now. Maybe this is not the. Maybe I'm not in the right emotional space to go up to one of the richest men in the world who controls my personal happiness to some level and strike up this conversation. Go sideways. It could go. It could go. George Costanza's dad. Why the hell you trade jb?
- [88:08]
C
People say.
- [88:09]
A
My people kept telling me, Jim Phelps, Jim Phelps.
- [88:12]
C
I do. I would want to see you and Steve Cohen speaking to each other. You know, I know that you talked last time we spoke about this, that you were. You didn't love listening to him talk to Joel Sherman and John Heyman. I honestly did appreciate it because I felt like, one, he was more candid than almost any other owner would be in an environment like that. And I appreciate the owner being honest. Two, he seemed upset and bothered.
- [88:36]
A
He was really upset about how things were going. That was true. And I felt his fandom seeping through, but there was a certain impatience with the questions that I didn't enjoy.
- [88:49]
C
Yeah, it was a mixed bag. I give him credit for making that appearance. I know he wants to turn it around. And he's in this weird thing where he's like, well, I've made this commitment to this executive and I don't want to be seen as somebody who is overreacting to the moment and firing that executive and then making this seem like, you know, a not very happy destination for, for management. But I don't think that's the case considering he's going to pay people $10 million a year to spend his money, which just seems like an insane proposition for almost any sports executive. But I'm glad that the team took care of you. That's the flip side of this, is that, you know, the organization, broadly seems like it's in a world class state. It seems like going to the ballpark is a lot of fun. The team, despite its performance on the field, like, it's, it's a very well run team outside of the team, part of the team. So they're in direct conflict. But I want to hear about the first pitch because I saw what happened and I have a lot of questions.
- [89:41]
A
What's your. What are your. Do you want me to just talk or do you want to ask your question?
- [89:44]
C
Where'd you get that arm on you, Zach?
- [89:45]
A
You know, great stuff so here's what happened. First of all, the whole thing is a well machine. I took the ferry. We expect there's a ferry now from various places that get you to Citi field, including Stamford, Connecticut. We took that. The ferry was like 30 minutes late. And I was extremely stressed out because you have to be out there by a certain, certain time or else this can't happen. But they, like, whisked me through and they're like. They bring me on the field, they give me the ball. They give you the ball, which I have, and I have to decide what to do with it. And I had. I had three choices for who my catcher would be. And I think if I were a more famous person, one of the choices would have been a player. But I don't meet that threshold, and that's fine. Was anyone in my family, and it just didn't. No one is a great fit. It was my dad, who's 83, my daughter who wouldn't do it, and my wife who would do it and is a tremendous athlete. But it didn't. Didn't feel like the right pick. Mr. Met or Mrs. Met. Now, if I were as hashtag woke as I'd like to be, I'd go, Mrs. Mrs. Met. With all apologies to Mrs. Met. Mr. Met's the O.G. oK. Like, Mr. Met is the choice. I'm sorry. Mrs. Met, you're amazing. I'm really. Your addition to the team has been welcome on every front. It's no. And they sit. They're like. They bring you out on the field. And they're like, all right, it's 7:01. The national anthem is going to be done at 7:02, Mr. Met, and you are going to get announced and walk out onto the field. And I had practiced from a mound at our local high school, Easy Speasy. And I was super confident. And I'm like, I. My. I'm like, I'm throwing. I'm going to throw gas. Like, for what. What passes is gas for me. I'm going up there. I'm going to throw hard. I'm. There was no question I was going to throw from the mound. They did tell me, interestingly, don't touch the rubber. The pitchers don't like it when the ceremonial pitchers touch the rubber and whatever. I'm. Okay, fine.
- [91:32]
C
Interesting.
- [91:33]
A
You can stand right in front of it if you want. So I was going to do that. I did that. And I got up there and I got tight. I got nervous. And so plan A was throw gas come hell or high water. Because I was confident. Plan b was take 30% off and just ensure that you get it all the way there on a decent trajectory and over the plate and don't embarrass yourself to. I pivoted to plan B very quickly, despite Mr. Met pumping me up the whole time we were there silently. He doesn't talk, but, yeah, how did he do that? Just, like, gesturing at me, pointing at me, thumbs up. And I was mildly happy with how it went and just thrilled that my dad got to be there and my wife got to be there and my kid got to be there and witness that. It's insane to me that I was able to do this for the only team I've ever truly loved. And it was awesome. And then Mr. Met and I went backstage, and we filmed a little skit that will appear on Mr. Met's social media channels, I think, sometime soon. So we'll see how that. How that goes. But it was truly a crazy, crazy experience. And with that, I will open up the floor for questions.
- [92:41]
C
Okay. One, I thought you were going to say, I went backstage with Mr. Met and we did fireball shots and drank and watched the game together.
- [92:48]
A
I don't think Mr. Met drinks.
- [92:52]
C
Okay. I. I'm very curious about the practice. You played baseball growing up Little League
- [92:58]
A
and quit Little League. You know what I couldn't overcome? I didn't want to get hit by a pitch. I just, like, I could never get over. Like, I didn't want to get hit by a pitch.
- [93:05]
C
That's interesting, because I felt like your motion was pretty sound. Were you thinking, am I. I'm definitely going from the wind up. Should I consider going from the stretch just to, you know, make this a little bit easier on myself? You know? You left it a little high.
- [93:18]
A
I did, but it was over.
- [93:21]
C
And very respectable. Like, honestly, we've seen hundreds of versions of significantly worse first pitches. I mean, I thought you did very well, but, like, how did you think about the way you were going to throw the ball?
- [93:33]
A
So now that I've done it once and done, respectively, well, I would like to do it again and, like, actually go for it and show the arm. But we got to get you out
- [93:42]
C
to a Long Island Ducks game. I know.
- [93:44]
A
Like, the Coney Island. Whatever. Coney Island. The Cyclones. I. So I Actually, weirdly, you know, it is frowned upon for an adult human to bring a glove to a baseball game. It's an. It's a mark of embarrassment. Like, I would never do it. I thought about bringing one just to have, like, the Comfort of. Of. Of going into a traditional windup of, like, having a place to put the ball and grab it and grip it. And I just decided, that's too embarrassing. I'm not going to do that. I'm just going to throw the ball. And then it was over. And then you walk out and you're done. And I. Some people have sent me videos. I had some friends at the game in various places. I was booed by a few. There were a few stray boo birds in the crowd, which, like, respect. If you want to boo me, boo me. I did my best. What do you want me to do?
- [94:30]
C
They booed your performance or did they don't like your commentary about the NBA? What do you think?
- [94:33]
A
I think it was before. I think as I walked out, I heard a strip. Now one of my friends, Tom, whose last name she'll be redacted, bought a ticket in section 11. And he's like, I have to be close enough for you to hear me say, lo, you suck before you walk out there. So it was tremendous. It was tremendous.
- [94:53]
C
I had a question about the crowds, actually, because, you know, sparsely attended game is something I wanted to note. I clocked that despite the fact that it was a Nolan McLean, Yoshinobu Yamamoto matchup. You got a real corker of a pitching duel, you know, did it. Did you feel the crowd when you were getting ready to throw? Or did you, like, could you sense that you were in a giant stadium or so in your head that you were like, I'm in a hallway with Mr. Met.
- [95:20]
A
I blocked it out. I blocked. I didn't. I didn't look into the stands. I didn't. I didn't look anywhere in the crowd. I will say, you know, as recently, this is the first game I've been to in a little bit since it really went south. As recently as last September, when I went to Old Timers Day or whatever they call it now, when the bottom was falling out, but they were still like a half game up in the playoffs, Wild card race or two games up even. But it was clearly like, we're just going to either fall backwards into the playoffs or not make it. The crowd was still alive. And, like, when Lindor would come up and my girl would play, half the stadium was singing the lyrics and doing the wave back and forth. The atmosphere the other night made me so sad. It is like, absolutely dead. Every. Like, the level of play has just killed the fans. No one is singing my girl no one is doing the wave with, with, in, in tune to the Song the crowd is totally dead. The crowd was probably 40% Dodgers fans and they were like way louder than the Mets fans in multiple. And I had people all around the stadium who reported my experience sitting pretty close the same. Like the Dodgers fans were loud and enthusiastic and the Mets fans were just like dead. It's not. They're not booing. No one is booing. It's just like disinterest. And even in September of last year, there was at least hope and interest. And now there's just like, you know, it's only one game. I'm going to go back soon when I get back from vacation. There's a couple good home series. I think we have the Giants and the Astros coming in like winnable games will be hopefully. But that was, that was a sad. It was a sad state of affairs. It was just a totally dead. The Mets portion of the crowd was just totally dead.
- [97:04]
C
Yeah, it's depressing to think about that. I mean, we're now fully back to 1992, 1993 era. The Jeff Torborg managed teams that were so brutally underperforming relative to what their expectations were. I think in 92 they went 70 and 92, and this feels like a 70 and 92 kind of season. The thing that we have to watch for here that is kind of agonizing in two ways is where will they finish in the standings actually matters. And they have the third worst record in the sport right now. We need them to stay pretty much right there. I mean, they're behind the Angels and the Rockies, and if they finish within the top six, they have obviously a much higher likelihood of staying in the top six in terms of the lottery. But even if they finish in the top six, I think they can still fall out of the lottery. And if they fall out of the top six picks, then they get bumped down automatically 10 picks because of the threshold and the payroll that they have crossed. So, like, that lottery is pretty important because if we're going to go through this season, we at least need to get a top five draft pick out of it.
- [98:07]
A
I guess I need to do this. I guess I need to learn a new set of overcomplicated lottery rules, right? As the NBA has introduced the 3:2:1 relegation zone system, I guess I'm going to have to dive in and figure out how the hell this lottery works and why.
- [98:19]
C
This one is ornate, man. This one is complicated. And it's pretty much only complicated for the Mets because they're the only team that spends this much money and is this terrible.
- [98:28]
A
Well, hooray, hooray for the Mets. There were some. Keep watching.
- [98:34]
C
I love Ewing and Benj, man, I love watching them.
- [98:37]
A
I forgot like there was a moment in the game. First of all, the most exciting moment of the game was Tyrone Taylor's hit to pull us within four, three. And then we didn't have a base runner in the ninth. Then the Dodgers made a pitching change in like the seventh inning, I think, or eighth inning maybe. And during the commercial break, they shut the lights off in the stadium for like one of those sort of light shows they do. And it, the motif was on the Jumbotron, a subway train whooshed by and the whooshing of that train was then replicated in the lights around the stadium as if the train was going around in a circle. Very cool light show. There was red, there was reds and greens and oranges all flashing in the outfield too. And I actually, my brain actually thought, wait a second, are the, are the Dodgers bringing in Edwin Diaz and the Met? This is like the Mets are going to like do some sort of tribute for him because there's no other possible exciting thing occurring here. There's certainly nothing exciting that the Mets are generating. And I knew that Diaz was like maybe going to be active for the series I had lost. I wasn't paying attention. And then, no, it was just like, hey, here's something that's kind of cool to watch while our team sucks and the other team makes a pitching change. And it was. I, I got my hopes up for like a Diaz cameo. There was none. None to be had.
- [99:47]
C
Yeah, that's the stage of fandom that we're in right now. We just hope for a cool light show while watching our favorite baseball team lose its 80th game of the year.
- [99:56]
A
It reminded me of the very first game I went to in my renaissance of fandom. It was also a Mets Dodgers game. It's crazy. My daughter has seen two Mets Dodgers games and Ohtani has not gotten on base one time in two games. And she's beginning to be skeptical that he's actually this good. We gotta teach her about sample sizes and things like that.
- [100:14]
C
But wait, you know, maybe wait on sample sizes.
- [100:17]
A
But the, but the first. My point is the first game, the Timmy Trumpet light show, when they shut the lights off and everything went like that, I think sealed her as a fan. That was so spectacular that it was like her. It was, it was spectacular to me. Let alone. And then 10 year old girl. And now a similar light show happens to Mark. Nothing Other than there's. The Dodgers are making a pitching change and yet another Mets loss. Anyway, it's Monday night. We got. We got a ways to go. I guess we'll see what happens, man. Any. Any final thoughts? Anything we didn't cover?
- [100:50]
C
No. I mean, I'm sorry, we're not. You and I are both going to be. Not available to. To do a post trade deadline breakdown, you know, and I feel fine about that, to be totally honest with you. I am excited to find out who they acquire and who I can pretend is going to matter to my life in five years.
- [101:04]
A
I might be three shots of rakia into my night in Croatia when they make a trade. And I got a mic and I got a camera and I forgot to show you one other cool thing. The Mets. Did you get your personalized jersey? Any number that you want.
- [101:16]
B
Wow.
- [101:17]
A
So I chose 18. Not because of Daryl Strawberry, although he was my favorite player.
- [101:22]
C
I was wondering about that.
- [101:23]
A
My. My daughter and my mom have the same birthday, February 18, 2018. So I chose 18 for them. And so this will be. I got to figure out what to do with this. I'll probably frame it. But this is like, this is. I. I get that anybody can make a personalized jersey.
- [101:37]
B
I get it.
- [101:37]
A
But this is a very cool thing.
- [101:38]
C
And I gotta tell you, it's possible that the Mets can acquire Brandon Lau at some point in the next 12 months. I really hope that they do. And in which case you'll have a. A use for that Brandon Lowe.
- [101:50]
A
Yeah. Cause I can't. I can't wear this one. Like there's no. There's that. I. I frown upon it. So it's either going to be framed or stashed somewhere. But it was very cool. Anyway, thank you to the Mets. Thank you to Sean Fennessy, the one and only. Subscribe to his newsletter on Substack Projections. It's awesome. It's teaching me so much about the movies. I feel so smart now. Sean Fennesee. Who knows when we next reconvene in September, what the state of things will be? But always, always. Let's go Mets. As they were winning last night against the Dodgers, my daughter and I were watching and I said to her, it's a lost season. I didn't know about this lottery rules. It's like, why not have fun? Why not? It's still fun to see them win. So let's have some fun.
- [102:29]
C
Let's have some fun. Thanks, Zach.
- [102:32]
A
That's it for today. Thank you as always. Let's do that again. Three two, one. All right, that's it for today. Thank you to Mo Takeil. Thank you to Sean Fennesee. Thank you to the Mets for having a win before this podcast went up. Thanks to Oscar Mike and Billy on Production. Thanks to you all for listening to and or watching the Zach Lowe Show. We'll see you next time. 21 are over and President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over in President President, D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem, call 1-800- GAMBLER or 1-800-MY RESET. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatincenecticut or is it mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland? Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050. For 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPENY or text HOPENY in New York. For Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7867.