Finding Potential Giannis Trades With Kirk Goldsberry. Plus, Sean Fennessey Joins for Mets Corner.

Summary

The Lowe Post (The Zach Lowe Show)

Episode: Finding Potential Giannis Trades With Kirk Goldsberry. Plus, Sean Fennessey Joins for Mets Corner.
Date: December 4, 2025
Host: Zach Lowe
Guests: Kirk Goldsberry, Sean Fennessey

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Overview

This jam-packed episode sees Zach Lowe and ESPN’s Kirk Goldsberry break down the latest drama surrounding Giannis Antetokounmpo, renewed Bucks trade buzz, and the state of the NBA’s top teams with a focus on daring hypothetical trades. Zach and Kirk put teams like the Hawks, Knicks, Cavs, Spurs, Rockets, and more through the Giannis sweepstakes and debate what Milwaukee should want and do if forced into a rebuild. The Thunder’s juggernaut status, the Clippers’ endless soap opera, and Chris Paul’s unceremonious exit also get analyzed, before Sean Fennessey joins for a deep Mets/Baseball/Nicknames/Movies segment.

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Main Theme

What should the Milwaukee Bucks do if Giannis Antetokounmpo becomes available for trade, and which NBA teams could—and should—enter the bidding war?
The episode dives deep into how Milwaukee’s fortunes, Giannis’s priorities, and the league’s shifting power structure may produce a blockbuster trade, while also surveying the state of the Association’s elite and upstart teams.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Has Anything Changed with Giannis Since Summer? ([03:15]–[09:47])

• Team Context: Bucks are struggling (“the Bucks suck, bro”—Kirk, [06:56]) and Giannis’s injury may escalate trade urgency.
• Giannis’s Motivation: He cares deeply about contending for championships; trust is eroding if the Bucks can’t deliver.
• Milwaukee’s Predicament: The team lacks control of their own picks—to tank is risky, but a half-rebuild may be futile without Giannis.

“The bottom line is the Bucks do not look like they're ready to make noise in the East. … Most important thing to [Giannis] is competing for championships.”
—Kirk ([06:56])

2. Would an In-Season Giannis Trade Make More Sense Than Waiting? ([09:05]–[11:26])

• League Landscape: The East feels “open,” Thunder dominance adds urgency, and some execs think now is better than the offseason for a trade.
• Potential Bidders: Teams like Houston or San Antonio must decide: “Do we take our shot at OKC now, or after they inevitably have to pay the piper on all this draft capital?”

3. Potential Giannis Trades: Deep-Dive on Destinations ([16:29]–[51:11])

Eastern Conference

• Atlanta Hawks:
  • Zach’s No. 1 Fit: Because Milwaukee could reclaim its own picks, and trade talks could involve Trae Young and assets (not Jalen Johnson).
  • Hawks' Dilemma: If they help Milwaukee, their own future draft assets could decline—do they risk it?
  • “If I'm them, I'm not trading Jalen Johnson.” —Zach ([20:10])
• New York Knicks:
  • Possible only if Giannis picks them “Anthony Davis-style,” but the Knicks’ trade packages (RJ Barrett/OG Anunoby/Mitch Robinson) don’t excite for a full rebuild.
  • Power Dynamics: “The Knicks are only favorites if Giannis forces it.” —Kirk ([22:11])
• Cleveland Cavaliers:
  • Mobley-centric deal more plausible now; Garland/Allen less attractive; apron rules complicate it, but Mobley has appeal.
  • “Mobley as centerpiece is much more interesting now…we look a little bit broken.” —Zach ([25:31])
• Miami Heat:
  • “Always doing due diligence”—the Heat’s asset pool hobbled by Terry Rozier uncertainty, only two firsts to offer, and Tyler Herro as main carrot. A deal would require giving up standout prospect Khaleel Ware, which is “wear or bust.” —Zach ([30:08])
• Other East (Mentions Only): Toronto (lots of salary but no enticing picks), Chicago (would love to bet against their picks), Detroit (Jalen Duren as centerpiece), Brooklyn (likes NYC but lacks an established “win now” co-star).

Western Conference

• San Antonio Spurs:
  • Wemby + Giannis “Death Star”? But cost would be huge—one of Castle or Harper plus picks, and trading youth is against the Spurs way.
  • “It would be a departure … we don’t do this. We build through the draft.” —Kirk ([34:37])
• Houston Rockets:
  • Have the picks, but deal only likely if Sengun or Amen Thompson are involved—would they risk upsetting a budding juggernaut?
  • “Do they want to upset the apple cart?” —Kirk ([44:10])
• Thunder, Mavs, Other West:
  • Thunder are untouchable, but discussed as the gold standard.
  • League-wide, if Giannis moves West, the imbalance becomes more extreme.

4. Thunder Deep-Dive: They’re a Juggernaut ([57:58]–[71:17])

• Their Draft Pick Hoard: Clippers downside is Thunder upside; “Pentagram of Hell” teams (Clippers, Mavs, Pelicans, Kings, Grizzlies) look bleak in contrast.
• Dominance in Numbers: 21-1 record, absurd net rating, #1 defense, deep without key players, “defense goes on runs”—they’re optimized for this new NBA.
• Half-Court Offense: Last year’s weakness is mitigated by free throw differential, Isaiah Joe, AJ Mitchell, and emerging rotation depth.
• When to Challenge Them?: Spurs, Rockets, others have to gamble on when to make their shot (“It’s never as much of a wrap as it looks like.” —Zach, [71:41])

5. Chris Paul & the Clippers Melodrama ([52:22]–[57:58])

• CP3’s Send-Off: Sent home by the Clippers, possibly due to grating on the club with his “tough love.”
  • “You have these people in your life…even when they’re right, you just sometimes don’t want to hear it. That’s the CP3 thing.” —Zach ([53:13])
  • “Old injured dudes and a lot of leeway.” —Kirk ([54:34])
• Clippers as cautionary tale: Trading picks for aging stars hasn’t panned out, compared to OKC’s homegrown model.

6. All-Star Game Ballot Talk/Format ([75:01]–[82:35])

• New rules: 12 East, 12 West, no positions, but must have 16 US and 8 international players minimum. Silver fills if below threshold.
• Team by team selections: Both hosts offer their provisional All-Star picks and lament how loaded the "World" side is versus the US.
• “This is going to hurt. …Americans are going to have a tough time.” —Kirk ([80:26])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Bucks' dire straits:
  “The Bucks suck, bro. The Bucks do not look like they're ready to make noise in the East.”
  —Kirk Goldsberry ([06:56])

• On urgency vs. patience for buyers:
  “Do we take our shot at Oklahoma City now ... or wait till they have to make roster sacrifices?”
  —Zach Lowe ([11:26])

• On Thunder’s mastery of foul science:
  “They figured out the science of fouling almost like the Spurs figured out the science of the corner three.”
  —Kirk ([62:12])

• On Giannis trade packages:
  “I think the easiest solution…is to get their own picks back.”
  —Zach ([16:44])

• On Knicks as frontrunner only if Giannis demands:
  “That’s how I'm reading the situation. …The Knicks aren't your best trade partner here.”
  —Kirk ([22:11], [22:23])

• On the Thunder’s inevitability:
  “Sure, they're going to be awesome for a long time. ... It looks like a rap. It’s never as much of a rap as you think.”
  —Zach ([71:41])

• On Chris Paul’s sendoff:
  “You have these people in your life ... you just sometimes don’t want to hear it. ... That’s the CP3 thing.”
  —Zach ([53:13])

• On All-Star selection headaches:
  “This is going to hurt. ... Americans are going to have a tough time.”
  —Kirk ([80:26])

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Important Timestamps

• [03:15] — Main Giannis conversation begins.
• [16:29] — Team-by-team Giannis trade fits: Hawks, Knicks, Cavs, Heat.
• [31:45] — West teams: Spurs, Rockets (and deep philosophical Spurs talk).
• [52:22] — Chris Paul and Clippers exit saga.
• [57:58] — Thunder dominance breakdown.
• [75:01] — All-Star ballot, rule changes, and picks.

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Mets Corner with Sean Fennessey ([83:55]–[114:38])

Mets Offseason Moves

• Devin Williams trade, bullpen fortification, hope for Edwin Diaz’s return.
• Discussion of the Nimmo-Semien swap, Stearns’s approach, and what it signals about the youth movement vs. winning now.
• Outfield needs: Names like Kyle Tucker and Cody Bellinger floated.
• Chemistry & friction:
  • Lindor/Soto reportedly don’t get along, Lindor/McNeil have history (“the raccoon incident”), but not necessarily a crisis.
  • “Happy teams tend to do better. Or do good teams tend to be happy?” —Fennessey ([101:06])
• Fan/family perspective: Zach relays his daughter’s concern about Lindor possibly being traded.

Baseball banter:

• MLB statistical lingo gets credit: “meltdowns,” “whiff rate.”

Movies sidebar:

• Brief, thoughtful take on the Quentin Tarantino/Paul Dano “There Will Be Blood” controversy: “I find that shocking … You need someone opposite Day-Lewis who you do hate…” —Fennessey ([111:37])

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Tone & Style

Zach and Kirk keep things conversational, sly, and irreverent (“pentagram of hell,” “meltdowns”), but never lose analytic rigor, giving listeners both accessible summaries and deep-cut strategy debates. The episode is peppered with casual asides, sharp humor, and genuine sports nerddom—plus a warm, fan-centric flavor in the Mets and movies segments.

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For Those Who Haven’t Listened

This episode provides a panoramic yet detailed look at one of the league’s biggest storylines—what to do if an aging champion (the Bucks) faces losing its superstar (Giannis). Zach and Kirk walk listeners through every possible scenario: what makes a trade package truly valuable for a small-market team, the psychological and strategic considerations for the teams chasing the Thunder, and the huge, looming “where does the league go from here?” questions Giannis’s hypothetical availability triggers.

The show effortlessly pivots from deep analytics and CBA considerations to league anecdotes, franchise pathologies, and the quirks of trades, leadership, and locker room chemistry, while also never skimping on laughs or on-the-nose insights.

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Transcript

[A]

This episode is brought to you by the NBA on Prime. Hey, Zach Lowe here. The NBA on Prime is back this Friday with another great doubleheader. The action starts with one of the best rivalries in sports as Luka Doncic and the Los Angeles Lakers face Jaylen Brown and the Boston Celtics. Then Cooper Flag and the Dallas Mavericks meet SGA and the Oklahoma City Thunder. If you're not a Prime member, that's not a problem. Sign up for a 30 day free trial to get started now. Lakers, Celtics, Mavs, Thunder. How can you not love that? Lakers and Celtics, it's history. It's the gold, it's the Green, Luka, LeBron, Reeves. It's must watch television. How is LeBron fitting in? And then Maverick's Thunder rematch of a playoff series from two years ago that the Mavs won. That seems like an entirely different NBA. Will anyone ever beat the Thunder again? These games are going to be awesome. Coverage starts Friday at 6:30pm Eastern only on Prime. Restrictions apply. See Amazon.com/Amazon prime for details.

Coming up on a loaded edition of the Zach Lowe show, the NBA had a day on Wednesday. It started with the unceremonious departure of Chris Paul from the LA Clippers. Sent home. What happened? Why it escalated with some Giannis trade buzz. Kind of renewed, kind of the same old from the summer, but with a little more urgency because the Bucks are losing. And it ended with Giannis falling to the court with an apparent injury, a leg injury that we learn on this podcast is indeed a calf strain that's going to keep him at a few weeks. We go through everything that's going on. What's going on with Giannis, what should the Bucks do? What teams should get into the Giannis Derby if it ever happens. What do they have to offer? What should they not offer? What are the best fits? What's actually going to happen here? We get to Chris Paul. What happened? What happens next? We talk Thunder. Who are hovering over all of these decisions? If you're trying to buy on a star like Giannis, you have to decide do we take our shot at this 21 and 1 juggernaut now? Do we try to wait a couple years? What should we do? How are the Thunder even better than they were last year. We do a deep dive on the Thunder and then Kurt Goldberry and I pick very tentative, very early. We just fly through the All Star ballot. How does it actually work? Who should be on the All Star team? Loaded episode. And then Mets corner is back. The baseball off season is here. Sean Fenasey is here to guide me through what's going to happen with the Mets, what's already happened with some trades and signings and to talk a little movies. Yeah, it's all coming up on the Zach Low Show. This episode of the Zach Low show is presented by Amazon Prime. The holidays are here and they move quick. Luckily, Prime's fast free delivery is your miracle play, getting whatever you need there fast. Prime Primes fast. Shipping is always there for you during the holidays, especially when it's last minute and it just can't wait. From stocking stuffers to that perfect gift for the MVP in your life, it's on Prime. Head to Amazon.com prime to shop now.

Welcome to the Zach Low Show. It's Thursday morning and the NBA is going full blast with drama, melodrama, all kinds of drama. Kurt Goldsberry, how are you?

[B]

I'm well, Zach. How are you doing, bud?

[A]

I'm good. Yesterday turned into a day. It turned into a day started with Chris Paul's unceremonious exit from the Los Angeles Clippers being sent home and then FaceTiming with fellow Clipper expats Blake Griffin and DeAndre Jordan laughing almost too uproariously in the screenshot that I saw like a sitcom audience trying to really ham it up. And then it ended in the middle with, well, in the middle there was Giannis, I guess, still discussing. This is a really long discussion. He really needs to go rent like a French salon and discuss it with lots of people. But he's still discussing the possibility of discussing the possibility of a trade or his future in general with the Milwaukee Bucks as they continue to lose games, although they won last night without him. And then it ended with Giannis suffering some sort of injury, non contact, maybe. Doc Rivers said contact. And it is not, apparently an Achilles tear. It's going to be a catch train, which could cost him several weeks. I mean, if it were an Achilles tear. It's just like, like, let's have a, let's have a hiatus for a little bit. Okay, let's. Can I, can I hit you with some big questions before we get into the fake Giannis trades and all this?

[B]

Hell yeah.

[A]

Big question number one, what, if anything, has changed since the summer when Sham Strania, who wrote the story yesterday, kept reporting that Giannis was looking into his future from the fall in October, when Sham Strana reported that Giannis was looking into his future and had zeroed in on the Knicks as the only team that he was really interested in going on. I'm Just going to read a sentence from that October 7th story if I can find it. And this is about his meeting with John Horst. Giannis meeting with John Horst in Greece after Horst expressed confidence in the Bucks roster in his moves.

Aired his concerns about whether this team could truly achieve championship contention. It can't. And he wanted to explore whether there would be an alternative path forward for both the team and the player, league sources said. So amidst all that gobbledygook at the end, wanted to explore whether there would be an alternative path forward for the team and player sounds a lot like a very strained, strained way of saying wanted to explore the possibility of getting traded to hell out of Milwaukee. So what, if anything, has changed since then, Mr. Goldsberry? Or is this just a sort of like, all right, we're going to keep throwing this into the news just to do it situation?

[B]

Yeah, great question and I think it's the right question because the thing that's changed is the thing that John Horst said when he was confident about this moves is that, hey, we're going to contend in a relatively weak Eastern Conference. We have the best player arguably in the Eastern Conference, and you, my friend, and we've built a good roster around it. We got Miles Turner and he was coming in saying all this stuff. Well, particularly when Giannis has not played. And you've looked at the same numbers I have. I'm sure the, the, the roster is not very good. The team is 10 and 13. When Giannis has missed games, they've looked woeful, incapable of winning games.

[A]

Other than last night. The nice win against the Pistons last night should, should be noted.

[B]

Well, it's been such a telenovela, bro. The last 36, 48 hours, starting with whenever the Washington game was. And you and I were texting back and forth about the last play down the stretch where Giannis shoots that fade away in the mid range, gets tangled up with his old buddy Chris Middleton and then doesn't run back on covered his.

[A]

He could look like me on the beach trying to take a nap, covering my eyes like, like this.

[C]

Just.

[A]

You know what, guys? I'm out of it now.

[B]

Yeah. Bottom line is, is that that game and that performance raised some eyebrows before the real soap opera kicked in. This week they lose at Washington with Giannis. That's the headline. So what, what, if anything, has changed? The Bucks suck, bro. The Bucks do not look like they're ready to make noise in the East. And if you talk to anybody who's played with Giannis or worked with Giannis or Coached Giannis. What do they say? This dude wants to compete for championships. That's the most important thing to him. And I think he did give the team a chance in the first month this season to really demonstrate that they could compete for the Eastern Conference crown. And I think what, if anything, changed, that became clearly not a possibility.

[A]

The Bucks don't have it. It's over.

They can pin a lot of hope on Kevin Porter Jr. Coming back. And he's looked good since he came back. Looks fast, athletic, all the things you want Kevin Porter Jr. To. They're not going to win the East. They don't have it. That's done. And that is indeed what has changed. And that matters for a couple of reasons. Number one, it makes yesterday's story actually meaningful to me because if they continue to lose games over the next month and they're just wildly out of it, I do think that increases the chances that an in season trade could happen. It also matters because the Bucks don't control their draft fix. And there's been this sort of school of thought among teams thinking about this that, well, maybe that means they would prioritize getting good prime age or veteran players back to stay relevant while they wait out this we don't have our draft picks thing. And you look at the team and it's like, like they're so far away from relevant without Giannis that I don't even know that such a trade. So you give them, I mean, we're going to name a bunch of guys. We give them like one really good, like sub Giannis, level, all star. Are they relevant? You give them Karl Anthony Towns. Are they relevant? You give them Alper and Shangun. Are they relevant? I think they're still pretty fucking far from like relevant. And so that matters too. The other question, I have another big question for you. Ready?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I was talking about this with the GM yesterday. There's been this thought that the Bucks would have more leverage at least, or at least more opportunities, pathways to trading Giannis in the off season when the apron stuff loosens up and guys enter free agency. And I was talking to a GM yesterday, he said, I actually don't think that's true because the league, I guess south of Oklahoma City in terms of the standings appears to be so open and the east in particular appears to be so open that they might be able to gin up a more frothy bidding war now in the middle of this seemingly open season than they could in the off season. I think that's interesting and like maybe actually True.

[B]

Yeah. And I think some of the teams looking at Oklahoma City have to be sort of humbled in a way. So you asked me, obviously the big thing that changed since, since October and all the reporting about the Knicks stuff, dude, OKC looks like an absolute juggernaut. And there's this sort of feeling around the league. It's like, man, can we compete with these guys? You look at a team like the Knicks, one of the most likely destinations, and they have to say, hey man, we're 14 and 7. Are we really that good? So I think that had changed a little bit too. So I look at this from a few perspectives, from a potential buyer's perspective. Obviously Giannis elevates every team in the NBA. I think what you brought up just now with the context in Milwaukee is actually the most interesting part about how this could play out. How honest is that organization going to be with its predicament, with itself? You know, they have this dead money on the books for a long time.

As they approach this process, because I think what you said was really smart. What type of offer should they go for? What type of offer will they go for? I don't trust this current organization to make the perfect decision here. I don't think they've earned that over the last five years of transactions and draft picks. But man, if I was advising the Milwaukee Bucks, we have to really start to think about the long term play here, not, not the Band Aid play. So I think that from a, from a Milwaukee perspective is one of the more interesting things you touched on there.

[A]

Zach, a couple of things you hit. Oklahoma City is a looming variable in this because two of the teams that can offer the best ready made Giannis packages are good teams in the Western Conference. Good youngish teams of the Western Conference, the Houston Rockets and the San Antonio Spurs. And they as young leaning teams have to ask themselves, and I don't know the answer to this question, are we better off taking our shot at Oklahoma City now as they're still kind of young and even though they're champions? Or are we actually better off taking our shot at Oklahoma City later when maybe some, some apron stuff is forced him to make some roster sacrifices? Maybe the lottery pick that they have coming from the Clippers, which is. And like maybe lottery picks they have coming from Utah and Philadelphia. But just focus on the Clippers one, cause it's unprotected, maybe that ends up just falling to seventh and it doesn't turn into this massive, oh my God, the league is in trouble. I think that's a really interesting question for those teams. I, and I don't know what answer to it is. And the other thing you said about. I've already forgot the other thing you said. What, what do you think about the Thunder thing?

[B]

Well, the Thunder are one of the teams that could make an offer which people will be like, oh, the Thunder could. What are you talking about? They.

[A]

That's, that's over. And, and, and you know, I said this in when I got back from vacation in August, September. If, if the Thunder had not won the title last year, this would be a really interesting situation. Unfortunately, they have won the title and they are 21 and 1. They're not trading for Yanis.

[B]

Maybe the best calendar year in association 2025 Oklahoma City Thunder. Let's not go tinkering with anything, but if you made a continuum, Zach Lowe from the best situation in the NBA right now, which is undeniably in Oklahoma, and the worst one, the disaster, it might be the Clippers.

[A]

And one thing and did you, did you hear that I coined it the pentagram of hell in the Western Conference of Memphis. The five pointed pentagram of Memphis Clippers, Mavericks, Pelicans. Who am I forgetting in the, in the pentagram? I don't know. Somebody Maps. No, I said I think. Did I say Mavs if I didn't say maps? Oh, Kings. The Kings. The Kings are so obvious that they're the, they're like grandfathered into the pentagram forever.

[B]

Yeah, they're the cornerstone. But imagine this line for me, the Clippers and the Thunder have approached team building from a very different philosophy. And I think one of the characters here is the Clippers, too. I think the Clippers have helped change conventional wisdom in the NBA in the 2000s with this, hey, we're going to trade a bunch of picks for this guy on the wrong side of 30 and now look what they got for it. So I think it is a copycat league and we tend to look at success stories for the copycat thing. But there's also this cautionary tale element and I think conventional wisdom. When you look at the success of Sam Presti's project in Oklahoma City, what do you see? Hey, let's build internally. Domination is going to come from within. First round draft picks are the currency of choice in this second apron era. We're going to stock why I think that's actually one of the bigger stories here is our team's going to give a bunch of first round picks. Certainly a lot of the small market teams out West, San Antonio Being one of them have traditionally been like, we're not. That's our only chance. Why would I. Why would I do that?

[A]

Look, I don't want to talk about the Clippers, but in their defense, Paul George was like 28 or something when they did the trade, not 30 something. And I actually think that's not even the right cautionary tale. It's a. Certainly a big cautionary tale. I think the Durant trade to Phoenix is actually the worst cautionary tale of people brainwashing themselves into like, well, it's Kevin Durant. Like, you got to get Kevin Durant at any cost. And it's like, actually, you don't. Like if he's 35 years old. You don't have to get Kevin Durant if the cost is that. The other. The other big thing you mentioned was, you know, Milwaukee being honest with itself. This whole story has been framed as, what does Giannis want? And when is he going to press the nuclear button? It's never been framed at. Because I think the Bucks have just not even ever considered this line of thinking, what's actually better for the Bucks? And it's probably better for the Bucks at this point to hit the eject button, sum up a bidding war, drum up a bidding war, rather, and get everything you could get for Giannis. But I don't. I've never sensed that the ownership there or the front office there wants to actually have that conversation. And I get that the east is so bad, you know, they. They will recoup more draft picks to trade. I think they can trade three first round picks in the offseason. They're probably like, if we could just get to the off season, we can do another Hail Mary. Jrue Holiday, Dame, Lillard, Miles Turner, like, do we have another Hail Mary in the bag? I just, you know, with Giannis at 31 and injury issues like cropping up not infrequently, particularly in the playoffs, I don't know that that's right. Okay, can we go through some teams?

[B]

Oh, yeah, let's do it.

[A]

I don't have them in any order. I'm just going to come out and say right off the bat, I think Atlanta is the best team for Giannis and for the Bucks. For the very simple reason of the Bucks.

I think the Bucks are going to have to aim, as I said before, much more at the future than, oh, my God, we got to stay relevant now. And the challenge is they don't control their picks. And so the easiest solution to that is to get their own Picks back. And that's where they go to Atlanta and they can get this 2026 pick from New Orleans, slash their own pick, the Bucks, and get the best of that or get both of them, basically, because they already own one of them and one of them is theirs. They can get a piece of their own pick back in 2027. And, you know, look, you can. We can sit here and do the negotiation of who's in the trade, who's not in the trade, they can get other future picks from the Hawks. But I think if you built a trade around Trae Young, Risa Shea, those two draft assets, other draft assets, the Hawks will hang on to Jalen Johnson for dear life. And I actually think that's going to be a deal breaker for them. I don't think they do it if the Bucks or Jalen Johnson bust. They like the way they're playing now. They're seeking an answer to the Trey Young question, and this one is the one that could fall into their lap. I don't know if that's going to be enough for Milwaukee. Atlanta also has this other sort of angle, Kirk, of like, if we do nothing, if we don't trade for him and somebody else trades for him and the Bucks kind of semi bottom out for a year, that actually helps us because we have the best of the Pelicans pick and the Bucks pick. And if the Bucks pick leaps the Pelicans pick in the lottery, well, holy shit, we have that. It like guarantees us a top six pick in a loaded draft. That to me, though, is the more ready middle. And you can sit here and nitpick like, well, Giannis Daniels, Jalen Johnson, the spacing's not great. It's Giannis and the spacing's already not great as is. And they're playing pretty well. That they would be my number one, sort of @ least Eastern Conference.

[B]

Destination.

I think I still have the Knicks as number one, but I think everything you laid out is perfect. And I would even argue that from a two team perspective, this makes the most sense. But with the player preference in mind, I still put them as a solid number two or three. I think the Trey Young thing is perfect, like you said. I think everybody in Atlanta sort of like, how is this going to resolve? You use the term fall in my lap.

Yeah, if they got Giannis and didn't have to give up Jalen. Jalen Johnson, that's a really scary team. Quinn Snyder. This team is already firing on all cylinders. I think in an open Eastern Conference, the talent, the Defensive ceiling goes through the roof when you add Giannis to this group of wings in length already.

And like you're saying, like the parting of the talent from the Atlanta perspective here does make a lot of sense. But the sneaky thing you brought up, Zach, is I think that that part where they have the, the best of those Pelicans Bucks out your picks, that really makes me want to just see the Bucks go get bad. And I think that's a non. That's. That's an interesting part of this. This whole economy is like, oh, if I'm on See Solid and I'm in Atlanta, I want to see how bad the Bucks can get. So do I want to help the Bucks become a middle of the pack team in the east by giving them Trey Young? That's, that's a. Not. That's a, that's a relevant part of the calculus for Atlanta, particularly if.

[A]

You are.

Optimistic about the young core of the Hawks.

[B]

Already.

[A]

Yeah. And risk averse as a front office decision maker. And I don't know that. I don't know how to characterize Ansi in that. In that sense. And I, and I would respect there. We're not giving you Jalen Johnson. I've always been conservative of like, I don't like trading up 10 years in age. And Jalen Johnson is going to make the all star team this year. He's really, really good.

Knicks, they're on my list. I did this with Ian Begley in October. I don't really see a deal that makes any sense for the Bucks. And as you said, this would require Giannis to put his thumb on the scale. And I went through all the fake trades. You know, you could do Cat alone. That does nothing for me. You could do Bridges in an obi. I don't think that does anything for the Bucks. And I'm not sure that the Knicks are, you know, like, their Knicks are pretty, pretty thin after that. The best one I came up with was Cat and Anunobi for Giannis and Kuzma. It's an interesting one. I just don't think any of these do enough for the Bucks. And if I'm them, I'm just, I'm not, I'm not doing, I'm not doing these deals. I'm telling Giannis, sorry, like, we're not trading you for big contracts that we're not going to be able to flip for really good stuff. Sorry, we're just not doing.

[B]

It. Well, you're a really reasoned man and a basketball expert, and I agree with This, I agree with everything you just said.

The issue of how likely are the Knicks going to get Giannis Antetokounmpo ultimately boils down to who has the steering wheel here. Is this one of these deals where the superstar can pick his place because that's the only way the Knicks become the favorite? And I want to be very clear. That's how I'm reading the situation. This feels like I'm an Anthony Davis and I want to go to the Lakers moment not because the Lakers have the best package, but because. Excuse me, but because that's. That's where the player wants to go. And so I think underneath all of this, these fake trade packages, is what's best for the Bucks versus how much power Giannis has here.

I pick the Knicks as the favorite because of the honest power element. I don't like this for the Bucks. I don't like. If I'm advising the Milwaukee Bucks on what's best for the franchise long term, then the Knicks aren't your best trade partner here. The Knicks aren't your best trade.

[A]

Partner. Look, they can throw in, you know, swap rights on some of their picks that have already been swapped or the rights to their picks that have already been swapped, or whatever you want, whatever the right phrasing is. It's not. It's just. And the Knicks also have to ask themselves, are we. Are we already the best team in Eastern Conference right now? I'm not sure that they are, but they might already be.

When Begley came on, I floated the should the Knicks trade Brunson for Giannis? And it's like, that's the nuclear option that they're not going to consider. It's a family affair. Before we go to the west teams, can I bring up another east team that I think is. Would have to be taken more seriously than they would have been a month ago? This team is over the second apron, so it's extremely hard for them to do this, but they can do it. There are pathways to do it. And it's Cleveland who lost again last night. And over the summer, the package I had imagined for Giannis was Garland and Allen, not necessarily both going to Milwaukee because the Cavs cannot aggregate salaries as is now. And they make like, I think, like, $70 million combined or something like that. No, $60 million combined. So 13 more or five more than Giannis only.

But it was more Allen to Milwaukee. Now they have Miles Turner already. I don't know what you do with that. Garland to a third team, the picks that that team gives up going to Milwaukee. It doesn't necessarily triangulate the picks so that I get like really golden chip picks. Maybe, maybe, but maybe I get a couple bites of different teams draft picks this way. What has happened since then is that Garland has been injured basically the whole season. You know, he's played like a half dozen or so games and not looked good. Allen has seen his minutes cut a little bit and I don't know exactly what to make of that. As the Cavs trend to hey, we like this Mobley at center thing a little bit more. The team has not been as good as they'd hoped. Now they've had a ton of health issues even beyond Garland. We don't need to list them all off. And Mobley has not yet made the leap. And I've been a massive Mobley optimist. I think he's already a very good player, an all star player, a second team all NBA player last year and deservedly so.

I think the Mobley as the centerpiece of a Giannis deal discussion is much, much more interesting to me from the Cleveland perspective than it was just a couple of months ago. Because this more and more just looks like it's Donovan Mitchell's team. It's Donovan Mitchell's timeline. He's been by far the best player on the team this year. And I don't know how much like Evan Mobley is really good and he's really young, 24 years old. They're going to have to add more to it than that. And there's apron restrictions to, you know, above all this, they don't have picks to trade. I don't know how workable it is, how much more the Bucks would ask for. It's a more interesting idea. Like I was a no on Mobley two months ago. Now I'd probably like we got to have some meetings about this and I might actually do it because we're, we're, we, we look a little bit.

Broken is too strong of a word, but not awesome right.

[B]

Now. Yeah, and the other, the other data point that I had with Bill on this topic last week were not about Giannis at that time was just like we also saw the, the 2025 NBA playoffs and they did not look particularly championship ready there. And you can say injuries or whatever, but I think it is a valid destination. I guarantee you the Cleveland Cavs are talking about it and if I'm Milwaukee again, like that's a nice young player that I can either incorporate or move on from at my time.

[A]

Frame.

I think the single best asset the Bucks could get is that draft pick from the Hawks, I think. Is Mobley the single best player that's going to be mentioned in all of our fake trades? I don't know that that's true, but he's up there and he's young. Can I give you another name that. I went way down a rabbit hole before I realized something that closed up the rabbit hole for.

[B]

Me. Are we staying in the east or are we moving to the.

[A]

West? We're going to stay in the.

[B]

East. Okay. I have one more Eastern Conference team that I think we both need to talk about, but go ahead.

[A]

Man. I want to save the other east teams for the end because I have a feeling I can guess your east teams. I went a little bit deep down a rabbit hole of in the mold of Mobley as a centerpiece of Bankero for Giannis, given how well the Bucks have played without Bankaro. And then I remembered that Bankero is poison pilled and very, very difficult to trade because his extension has not kicked in yet. That's more of a summertime thing. The. I went. I got. I got to. I got into some Bankero trade machine mechanics. Okay, Nate, before we go to the big Western juggernauts, give me one of your east teams that you want to.

[B]

Discuss. Well, it's the other Florida team. Dude, it is the Miami going back to the bubble. There was smoke around. You know, Miami always has these. You know, you've heard all the intel around Miami for years. They're doing due diligence on people, but they. I remember talking to a Bucs coach at the time, being like, dude, one of the Miami coaches is kind of like tampering with our guy in the bubble. And I don't know if it's true or not, but I just remember thinking that. And then you start to hear about, oh, yeah, they're. They're building around, they're waiting. And so I think Miami has to be mentioned. They are playing well. They are smart team. They've been able to sort of resurrect careers like Giannis's, so I think they have to be mentioned. Unfortunately for Heat fans, they have one of the more awkward front office predicaments hindering them from making a big trade right now, which is this. This big Terry Rozier cloud and the uncertainty that it comes with. Do they have an extra pick coming back to them? What can they do with Terry Rozier? Will the league allow them to even trade Terry Rogier's contract or not? So I Think they're sort of playing with one hand behind their back at the exact time where a potential Giannis move for them is available. So I'd love to hear what you have to say about the.

[A]

Heat. First of all, I like the idea of them adding always doing due diligence to their hardest working, best condition court. Throw that out. We're always, always doing due diligence. Well, I would ask you this. What's the.

[B]

Trade?

Well, I think there's a Tyler Herro play there who's from Wisconsin. One of the weird caveats here is that you have the same agent representing Bam Adebayo who represents Giannis. And I think, by the way.

[A]

We should mention that that agent was interviewing for the Atlanta Hawks general manager position like, like in, in May and June. And people could, you know, people are going to connect dots to his star clients when that.

[B]

Happens.

I would say that Tyler Harrell has to be the centerpiece and some draft picks, but again, there's, there's uncertainty around the war chest that Miami has to even get into this deal. And, and there's like, like I said, they're sort of trading with one arm behind their back, but it's clearly if the player involved, it's gotta be, you know, some sort of Wiggins Harrow.

[A]

Thing or Bam onto the next, onto the next.

[B]

Offer. But that's where the, the draft capital has to come. And, and Miami, I think they're hopeful they'll get compensatory draft pick. But did they? They just had. They, they have this opacity in their own ability to, to make a trade right now, but it just feels like something they would want to do organizationally, dating back to the beginning of the Pat Riley time in.

[A]

Miami. I don't think I've ever said or written the word opacity in my entire life. I've definitely said or written the word opaque, but opacity is strong. The Heat can trade two first round picks as of now because of the pick they owe Charlotte. That's all they can trade. They can trade some swaps. The negotiations begin and end with Khaleel Ware. If Khaleel Ware is not in the deal, then we're just not talking because Tyler hero, Andrew Wiggins, that's cool. Like, those guys are fine. They're not keeping me relevant. We're still going to suck. We don't get any golden chip picks because if Giannis gets traded to the Heat, the Heat are going to be good. It's wear or bust. And where is making a huge leap. He Looks like a future, you know, like potential all star player. I don't think that's an exaggeration based on, well, he's played lately. The fit with Bam is.

[B]

Tbd.

[A]

Yeah. And. And you know if you threw where hero Rogier two first round picks a bunch of swaps. I still don't think that's other teams can beat that.

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You want to do Rockets or Spurs.

[B]

First? Oh God, we got to do the.

[A]

Spurs.

Giannis and Wemby together. Imagine that. The spurs are under the tax. They have two high level young ultra young guards that they just picked in recent drafts in Dylan Harper and Stefan Castle. They have Devin Vassell's $27 million salary which I'm trying like holy hell to keep because he's an A plus shooter and boy do I need A plus shooting. They have a bunch of mid sized salaries. They have their own picks. They also notably from the Bucks need to triangulate these picks to get good ones. They have a swap with the Kings in 2031. Any swap with the Kings is something I want to get my hands on. They have a Boston top one protected swap in 2028 that doesn't look that valuable but you never know. They have like a Mavs Wolves, but probably Mavs swap in 2030. Yeah, the Mavs are in the Pentagram. That looks pretty good. You, you put together. I need all those or at least two of them because I need and I need some spurs assets and I'm sorry to say this to spurs fans. I need Castle or Harper. You, you can pick but you cannot do this trade. It can't be just a poo poop ladder of like Bissell and Harrison Barnes and a bunch of draft picks. One of those two guards has to be in it. Spurs fans are going to be apoplectic. But look, Kirk, you have just drafted in three consecutive drafts. Castle, Harper and Wembanyama. If you come out of this theoretical transaction with two of those three guys, obviously including Wemby. This is like one of the reasons you pile up these assets is to do it.

You know, I that's just the reality. I that's the conversation they're going to have to have with themselves. And it goes back to that. Do we want to take our shot at the Thunder now or do we want to keep this core together and really save our best shot for later? And I don't know what the right answer to that question.

[B]

Is. I lean towards a little down the road. Okay, so my, my opinion here is, is based on that, and I think he framed it perfectly. Do you want to take on the thunder in 2025 with this young group, or do you want to wait till 2027, 2029, something like that? I land as a former Spur myself, and this is not inside information. I just think you. We have a three decade sort of DNA track record with this team. Organizationally, what they value, they don't do this right. There could be a departure here. I'll allow for it. But if we're going to be instructed by what have we learned about pop and RC for the last 30 years is like we develop, we draft, we build big threes from our NBA draft capital. And that Wemby, Castle, Harper trio, not to mention Carter Bryant is starting to look like something. Right. I think everybody in San Antonio is excited. I know we're going to talk about them a little bit.

[A]

Later. Let's just talk about them now. Let's do it right.

[B]

Now. But yeah, they look, they look good. They won in Orlando last night with, without Wemby, without Castle, and they look like a different group. And Sam Presti and RC come from the school of. We're a small market Western Conference team. We use the draft, we use player development, we use free agency to decorate around the edges of our core that we build from the draft. And we rarely use trades. We don't do this now. Kawhi forced our hand in 2018, but we don't use this tool in part because we want our players to feel secure, feel like they're at home, feel like we're a family. We build trust in the organization. And when you start trading people, you know, you look at what happened in Dallas, up I35 from San Antonio, you blow up the morale of a group, you blow up a fan base. So I think it's antithetical to what I've learned about the spurs to see them getting off of Castle or Harper at this Stage. It doesn't mean it can't happen. It just means it would be a departure Zach Lowe's from what this team has been about for the last two or three decades. So I, I come out and say, yeah, Milwaukee's right. You, you should want to call this team and you should try to get one of those players out. I just think this is not the San Antonio spurs. That, that I know that they would make a transaction like.

[A]

This. I, they have to think about it and I don't. You can pick which one you would most be likely to trade between Harper and Castle. I love both of them. Castle obviously has a.

[B]

Year.

[A]

Yeah. Extra under his belt. Harper looks awesome. The spurs is, you know, are seven and two in their last nine games without Wembanyama. Massively impressive. And they've, they've had some easy, easy teams, but they've had some. Like at Orlando is a real win. They've got some real wins in this, in this stretch. Their offense is seventh in the league in that stretch. That's super impressive. De' Aaron Fox looks like an all star. Looks like the player he was during the beam team year. Super duper essential. Castle's also out by the.

[B]

Way.

[A]

Yeah. And they just like look like a pretty fucking polished team right now. And their turnover rate is second in the league in that stretch. Like their offense has been crisp and clean and their defense has been good enough. Carter Bryan's getting meaningful minutes. Like they're, they, they've been kind of parked over here because Wemby's out and people don't pay attention to them. When Wendy's Wemby's out. They're playing really, really.

[B]

Well. I mean that Luke Cornett block to save the game last night and Jamal Mosley, I thought that was a great play to draw it up. And I had not seen Luke Cornett move that fast, I think in his entire career. He comes out of nowhere. Clean block. Just an electric moment from almost a three point.

[A]

Line.

[B]

Yeah. But it's also the epitome of this Cornet Fox wake up in San Antonio because when you look at this exact game last year without Wemby would have been a disaster. This nine game stretch without Wemby would have been two and seven, not seven and two. And, and what's happening? Well, you mentioned the offense. Darren Fox, Dylan Harper are huge. Like in the fourth quarter last night, the spurs didn't look great down the stretch, but Dylan Harper got some buckets. Beautiful. And one finishing. He might be the best finishing guard we've seen in this league in a few years. And then in Fox, comes in, hits two huge threes, makes clutch free throws, is setting people up, and then cornet on the defensive end, Zach, he's plugging up the exact hole that they couldn't plug up with Zach Collins last year. And so you add in the shooting of champagne and Harrison Barnes has been great. In the Memphis game earlier this week, they're just deep. And the last point, last point is you talk to these guys, you talk about Jeremy Sohan, Kelton Johnson in these diminished roles now that there's actual depth in San Antonio. Oh my God, Kelton Johnson looks good. Jeremy Sohan in a limited role suddenly looks great. He's getting in fights, he's grabbing rebounds. But everybody, it's the opposite of the Pence Peter principle. They've been demoted to their level of competence in their rotation. And suddenly these guys look who were, who were pressing last year. Look very comfortable and very effective in role player.

[A]

Situations. I'm glad you shouted out harrison Barnes. Harrison Barnes is playing out of his fucking mind right now. He's 33 years old. And the rest of the spurs treat him like he's 42. Whenever he does something, you're like, oh, on ear. He's averaging 13 a game, 49% shooting, 43% from threes. He's like hitting pullback threes on the pick and roll and like isoing dudes and spinning along the baseline. Shout out. Harrison Barnes, I didn't know he had that much left in the.

[B]

Tank. Well, and I didn't know he would be one of the, one of the most reliable three point shooters in the league, like with pretty good volume. And he does deserve a lot of credit for that. And I've talked to him about it. He said, kirk, one of the things I learned to do was to not shoot. He used to force a lot of shots and now he's really smart about when he pulls the trigger. But yeah, I think, and we're going to talk about Chris Paul, but when Chris left, it was like, okay, who's going to be the old leader in this locker room? And I think Harrison has emerged as like the professional grownup in the San Antonio ecosystem. And he deserves a lot of shine for what's going on.

[A]

Here. And they got him in true Bulls slash Kings methodology. They got him for nothing as a throw in to a deal between those two teams. Who again, Adam Silver, if you're going to be policing all these things around the league that are going on, do not let the Bulls and the Kings trade with each other anymore, it's over. They can't trade players anymore. They can't exchange. They're not like a. Like, they're like two small high schools who have to join up and make a team together to compete with, like, the big high schools around them. We can't have that. I think, look, it's hard. Like, it's hard to part with a guy like Castle who looks amazing, or a guy like Harper who looks amazing, and I understand the risk aversion to doing it. Fox is the wild card here. When you get that guy at that age and he's playing like this, you have to consider it. Fox plus Giannis plus Wemby plus who's ever left over out of those two young guards, plus the supporting cast like that, that's a team that, if I'm taking an honest shot at the Thunder now, that team can do it, and I'd have to think hard about.

[B]

It. Houston, can I ask you one before we go to Houston? One basketball question that I'm sure your audience wants to hear you talk about from a basketball nerd perspective. Do you think Wemby and Giannis together would be the Death Star, or do you think that could be a little bit awkward to figure out with those two guys? We've never seen anything like.

[A]

That.

I think the Death Star is Jokic plus a guy like Giannis or Wemby. I think Jokic and Wemby is. Let's just. Let's just fold it up for a little bit. But, yeah, look, Wemby's outside shooting is coming along. Giannis's is just where it is.

They both want the ball. Giannis particularly wants the ball a lot. The talent and the length is just so overwhelming that I don't worry about the fit at all. Houston is the more interesting one because they are better than San Antonio right now and could look at themselves and say, hey, look, we're a championship contender now. We don't need to break up our young core to do it. Like San Antonio, they acquired. Well, Fox is right in his prime. Durant is obviously way past his prime, but a player that, you know, whether you want to hear it or not, accelerate your timeline a little bit along with how well you're playing.

They have this Fred Van vliet contract that's 25 million. He's out for the season. He has a de facto no trade clause because it's of the one year plus one nature of the contract. They have picks from all over the place, which is again if I'm Milwaukee, I look at swap rights on the next Nets pick next year. I'm like, I want that. I look at some Phoenix Suns draft assets. They have a couple of those left over. I want those. Despite how well the Suns are playing, I want to get as many bites at the apple from different teams as I can. Unfortunately for the Rockets, I also need Sengun or Amen Thompson. Reed shepherd is not going to be enough for me and I bet the Rockets right now want to keep all three of those guys. Of course, justifiably so.

But you know, I imagine this team look, I would be loath to trade Amin Thompson, but if you did trade Amin Thompson, my starting five could be Reed Durant, Giannis, Jabari Smith Jr. And Shen Goon. Giannis and Shengun actually would worry me as a fit more than Giannis and Wemby. Worry is too strong of a word. That's a. That's a like again, I'm taking an honest run at the Thunder with that group. We can be so precious with these young players and I'm generally risk averse trading up in age like that. But they got a lot of good young players. But I would bet Houston looks at themselves now and particularly with Sengun. He's become such a core piece of what they do and why they function offensively. Why their double center lineups work so well. I think. I bet they step away from this and just say we'll do it on our terms and our terms don't include those.

[B]

Guys. You mentioned apples and I was reading the ESPN fake trades piece and they have a phrase that I bet you've thought about before. If not going to think about it right. Do they want to upset the apple cart? Have you ever seen an apple cart? Have you ever upset an apple cart? What is.

[A]

Us? Don't don't get me started on apple picking and how much I hate apple picking. I had a rant with Arnovitz about this like pre Covid that got so yes I've seen an apple cart. I'd like not to see any more apple.

[B]

Carts. What does it actually mean to upset an apple.

[A]

Cart? I'm not sure what you're rolling it down like I don't know, you're just driving or rolling and someone tips it over and the apple spill.

[B]

Yeah. And they don't want to do that. The top top five offense and the top five defense, I think in their locker room they believe that this group right now could go into Oklahoma City and beat them in a playoff series. I think that IME Adoka believes that and I think that's relevant because they have a very, very good team. They have an identity. They have a nice growth profile here going into the future with Thompson, with Sengun, with Jabari.

So just like the Spurs, I would say, hey man, does this actually make us better near term and long term And I'm not sure I agree with it. So I don't think that Houston is a good fit. And one other point. If Giannis goes to the.

[C]

West.

[B]

Has the talent imbalance ever been greater than that in the, in the NBA? If we have Giannis and Jokic and Doncic and Wemby and Ant. I'm forgetting somebody. Jokic.

[A]

Whatever. How about incoming? How about Cooper Flag about incoming draft picks in 2026, Steph.

[B]

Curry? Like if it feels like with especially with Tatum and Halliburton sitting out, if Wemby or Wemby, if Giannis ends up going to the west, that's another point. It's like are all the good players going to be in the Western Conference at that point? So yeah, for those reasons, I really think Houston's on to something right now.

Either if you either think Denver or Houston has the best chance to upset OKC in the playoffs and that's where I land. Like do they really want to do this? That said, the player is good enough where you have to look at it and ultimately they could make that decision. I wouldn't be shocked, I would be.

[A]

Surprised.

If you went to Rafaelstone and the Fertittas and said.

We'Re doing this. We have to pick one of Amin Thompson and Alper and Shen Gun to trade out. Yeah, we have to. We're just doing it. The owner of Tillman comes in and says we're doing it. Pick one. I don't even know which one they would pick. I'm tempted to say Thompson. I mean this is just me my perspective because Sengun has been so essential. But Thompson's upside and his defense is so intriguing to me and Giannis can do his own version of what Sengun sort of does for them and can play some center as he gets older. And Sengun has like quietly been just an okay shooter on twos. His three point shot has been off the off the charts this year which is great. Not, not as efficient as kind of he looks. But I love Shanghai. He's a no brainer all star for me this year.

I that's a tough question. It's a tough question. I think, I just think, I look at Amen Thompson. I'm like, I just don't think I can trade that dude away. I just don't think I could do.

[B]

It. I think there's three untouchable dudes in Texas and I think Dallas has one and I think San Antonio has one and I think Houston has one. I think Houston says Thompson. I also would say that you can sort of swap out Sengun and Giannis and still have the rebounding and still have a lot of that defensive.

[A]

Positioning the way he facilitates from like the Dirk spot or a little even, even above the Dirk spot as a big guy who can dribble and kind of bulldoze his way.

[B]

In. Yeah, bulldoze is the perfect word. It's a little bit different than the soft Turkish touch passes, but it is, it is effective at the same sort of position. But it's a great question.

[A]

Zach. All right, I don't want to belabor this much longer. I just think three Eastern Conference teams must be mentioned before we move on. Just mention them. Toronto definitely has a bunch of big contracts, all their own picks and swaps. No picks from other teams to tantalize me. But some stuff Chicago, I mean this level of boldness is anathema. Anathema. I don't know something they don't do.

But boy would I love to bet against the Bulls as, as if I can get a bunch of Bulls draft picks. That's a team with the given the infrastructure around Giannis and by the way, Buzzela's quietly just kind of so. So after a hot start to the season as the Bulls have become who everybody thought they were. And if we're going to talk about marketing endlessly with Detroit Pistons, we should probably mention them. Brianis and that's one where.

You know, Jalen Duran is the one where the rubber meets the road in that one and I can hear Pistons fans saying, well this guy could make the All Star at the end this year. He's averaging 20 and 12. Is he that much worse than Evan Mobley? Statistically, no. I think defensively still, yes.

You got beef stew there. You know you got, you get, you can't, you can't just, can't just dismiss it. You can't just dismiss a guy who's a two time MVP and still one of the five best players in the league. All of them have to be mentioned. Yeah, I think Detroit will probably ride it out and not. And not dip too far into their asset pool. And the other two, I don't know. Anyway, just wanted to mention.

[B]

Them.

Well, I have to mention Brooklyn, because I've heard Brooklyn when I call around the league dude, I say the same thing, but I've heard it. And he likes New York City, supposedly, and they have everything to trade. But ultimately it comes down to that part I mentioned earlier. The dude wants to compete now. And so I just don't see that unless there is like a Paul George second shoe to drop situation where they're going to have. So I think that's a fantasy. But I've heard it when I've called around about this deal the last 24 hours. So I mentioned it towards the bottom of those Eastern Conference teams, but I've heard it. And I wouldn't be doing my job on the Zach Low show if I didn't bring it.

[A]

Up.

Look, we've heard it for two years, right? As Brooklyn, would they try and get this other player to come together as they have already done with other players in the past? I just like, that's either got to be A, Giannis puts us some way on the scale, and I don't know why I would do that if I'm Giannis, if I don't have any confidence that anybody there is ready to actually win games with me, or B, Milwaukee decides they don't give a fuck what Giannis wants, and Brooklyn bowls them over with anything and everything. And even that. I'm not sure they could beat some of these other offers that we're talking about. But you're right, they do need to be.

[B]

Mentioned. Well, and the other thing I've heard when I called around, I don't know if you heard this, it's like, dude, did they miss their chance? Because imagine if they had the Brooklyn deal done, I would say, in the summer before the draft, let's say somewhere around there where there's all these draft picks that are now human beings in Brooklyn uniforms. So that one feels like it's, it's, it's past its sell by date for the optimal chance for that to happen. But again, I'll throw it.

[A]

Out. You know what, though? Like, with these rookies, you know, people are too quick to write them off as, like, well, Brooklyn took all these mediocre rookies in the first round. You're two weeks of like, hey, Drake Powell did some stuff on defense and Danny Wolf is in the rotation and Jaeger Jagor Joman had, you know, just shot 10 of 15 from three over his last three games. So, like, oh, okay, well, look, yeah, okay, let's switch gears because there's a lot going on. Chris Paul's not going to play for the Clippers anymore. After being sent home unceremoniously and after some flight delays from the Clippers, the Clippers then responded by blowing out the Miami Heat on the road somehow last night.

I already did the CP3 legacy thing with Bill. It does suck to see an all time great player go out like this. If this is how he goes out. And the Lakers roster spot looks, you know, just sitting there. It's like too, it's too cinematic for he and LeBron to be these geezers together finally playing together at the end of the day.

Particularly with a team who he sort of was one of the two most important people in building up from a joke to something that wasn't a joke for. For a while, at.

[B]

Least. Yeah, for a while at.

[A]

Least. But look, he was barely in the rotation. He's old. He wasn't super helpful. And I said this when Bill and I did our, you know, people wanted to know why, what's it's. There's got to. Did he call out James's defense and James went to the front office and said X, Y and.

[C]

Z?

[A]

No. Did he rub Kawhi the wrong way? I don't think Kawhi ever calls up Lawrence Frank for any. Did he rub Ty Lu the wrong way? Did he love. I don't know the answer. I know that Chris Haynes was the first one, I think, to report that he and Ty Lue were no longer on speaking terms. That surprised me. That's frankly a failure of like everyone involved if, if you can't even be on speaking terms. But one thing I said with Bill and I love Chris Paul. I'm a Chris Paul. Like, I just, I, he's. He's one of the most interesting characters in the last 20 years in the NBA. To me, he is a, he's the point guard. But one thing I did say with Bill is you have these people in your life who are always telling you what the right thing to do was or is and how you missed the mark or what you should have done in that situation. And even when you come across one of those people who's right all the time because they're a genius and Chris Paul's a basketball genius. You have days when you're like, man, can we just not do it today? Can I just not hear it? Like, can we just take a little break? And that's the CP3 thing. I think that's basically all this was, was. You're the 14th guy now, man. You're not the point. God, anymore. And this isn't going great. I still was surprised though, because, like, wow. But I guess they're going to use this roster spot on a younger guy. And that makes sense because this team's full of old, injured.

[B]

Dudes. Old injured dudes and a lot of leeway. And I think that was the cryptic word he posted on social media.

[A]

Leeway. Yeah, I missed that. I missed what I. I got to get my social media game up. That was an Instagram story. I saw the I've been sent home. I saw the DJ Blake one. Where did this happen?

[B]

Leeway. I think it was Instagram stories. Hey, let us know in the comments where we can see that, guys. But when you talk about the Kawhi era, Clippers leeway is sort of a term you'll hear people talk about. Like there's different standards for different people in the group, different arrival times for practice or flights.

And Chris Paul, to your excellent description, is the exact kind of veteran player who would call that bullshit and I think would get frustrated by double standards in an organization that, let's not forget he's the greatest player in the history of that organization and he cares about this organization. He wants to have his jersey in the rafters in the intuit. And I think it. You described him perfectly. But if it's true that this leeway thing was, was sort of a thing in Clipperland that was just. It was bound to have a conflict with this guy, that's exactly who Chris Paul is. He's not going to go along with that and he's going to not stay quiet about it. And to your point, again, excellent description. He wears on people. And what he's thinking about the Lakers would be if he was back with J.J. in my opinion, because they had such, you know, they have a soap opera that goes back 20 years as college players, as high school players, and then as teammates. So, you know, I love Chris Paul, too. I was surprised. It's depressing more than anything that this victory tour is, is.

[C]

Is.

[B]

Is. Is farewell tour, I should say, is just getting blown up. But, man, I hope we get to see him play a little bit more basketball this season. Zach, whether it's in Laker land or somewhere.

[A]

Else.

Not a, Not a great look for anybody involved, to be honest. And it's not going to save the Clipper season. And I don't want to talk about the Clippers anymore because I've talked about the Clippers too much for the last eight.

[B]

Years. Wait, what did you say? At least for a little while, they weren't a disaster, at least for a little while, which I didn't know.

[A]

It was a conference finals appearance in their franchise history. Terrence, man.

[B]

Game. You know the name of the Clippers documentary, at least for a little.

[A]

While.

Yeah. We could come up with a better name if we thought about.

[C]

It.

[B]

But.

But doesn't it seem like the Clippers are back to being the Clippers that you and I have thought about for 30 years now? It just feels, well.

[A]

Nothing. Even when they were good, like during Chris Paul Lob City, something would always happen. Like the meltdown in Oklahoma City, the Sterling thing, the meltdown in Houston. Then they were good again in the Kawaii PG era, where as much as people want to rip that trade to shreds, here I am talking about the fucking Clippers again. Most people would have done that trade at that time for this shot at winning a title with these two prime age wings. And something always.

[C]

Happens. The.

[A]

Bubble. They just check out of the bubble and choke injuries. This tree thing that's still going on. Like something just always happens. And now here we are all these Years later, they're 6:16. And the Thunder, who we're about to talk about, are looking at a scenario where they not only are 21 1, they would have a chance if the Clippers continue to flounder at a top five pick in an absolutely loaded draft. And they also own the Sixers pick, top four protection in the Utah pick, top eight protection. It's ridiculous. Let's talk about the Thunder. Are you.

[B]

Ready? Yeah, I'll see at the All Star Game, by the way. In the toilet bowl and into it.

[A]

Baby.

[B]

Yeah. Or whatever we're going to call.

[A]

It. Oh, stop. I will want to use.

As many toilets as possible. When I walk around, I want to really luxuriate in the amount of toilets. I want to go to one bathroom, wash my hands, go to another bathroom. I want to see how many I can hit in like a 50 foot radius. If it really lives up to the hype, we should talk about the Thunder. We've been derelicted not talking about the Thunder because talking about dominance. They're always hovering over all of our discussions. Let's actually look at the Thunder, who are 21 and 1. They're hovering over everything in the league. Every decision that all these teams are making about buying on this guy, buying on that guy is particularly in the West. When and how do we try to take a shot at this team who's 21 and 1 despite Jada playing, I think two or three games so far and looks fine. Looks good. They are fifth in offense, first in defense by so much that it's a joke. Their net rating is 15 points per 100 possessions, which needless to say, would set the all time record, which they almost set last year.

Has their schedule been easy? Yes, it has. They've played the Kings three times, the Clippers, the Mavericks, the Grizzlies all once each. So they've cleaned up against the Pentagram of hell. They've played the Hornets, the Wizards, the Pacers. They played the warriors and the Lakers without guys with guys missing. They played the Blazers twice with those guys missing. Their schedule doesn't even get hard anytime soon. Man. They don't play the Nuggets again till February. They don't play the Lakers again till February. They don't play the Knicks till March. They have a couple spurs games coming up. They only play the Rockets three times all season. Their next four games are Dallas Pentagram at Utah, Phoenix Clippers, Pentagram. They could be 25 and 1. They should be 25 and 1 before they have a set of games against the Wolves and the Spurs. And they look better in some meaningful ways than they did even last year. I said before I took the over at 68 and a half, I said, I don't even care what the line is. To me, the chances that they win 70 games are better than the chances that they go under this line. They could win 73 games. They're like not even stressed out. They're like Caruso, take a few games off to rest your hamstring or whatever. Hartenstein's out for a bit, doesn't even matter. Lugansdorp, like whatever. However many games you need to miss to get your body right. No one's playing too many minutes. It's ridiculous. And I want you to talk about this. The biggest change from their season last year to this year is free throws. Last year they averaged 20.4 free throw attempts. Game, that was 26. They allowed 23.7, that was 27. So they didn't get to the line at all and fouled a lot. Their free throw differential attempts minus 3.4 for game per game. This year they're up to 25 free throws per game, 13th in the league and they're allowing 24 attempts per game. So almost about the same number as they did last year, but that comes out in the wash. Two, they have a free throw advantage plus 1.3 attempts per game. And this is where I want your insight. Free throw rate is Way up across the league, there are more fouls. There are more free throws. The Thunder have benefited from that on offense and not been hurt by it at all on defense because their foul rate was already so high. Now their foul rate is the same, and it's like average. How is this.

[B]

Happening? I think when we write the story of the Sam Presti era juggernaut, I think they figured out the science of fouling almost like the spurs figured out the science of the corner three. I think they. They look at fouls as a strategy. They look at it as something to understand, to manipulate, to test the waters. I think you can draw a line from Alex Caruso to Chet Holmgren to. Obviously, SGA was like, these guys know more about the whistle than about. Than anybody else in the league. I think Caruso is a defender, embodies a big trend that we saw in the postseason last year and into this season, which explains that big uptick in fouls and points of emphasis, by the way, that the league added in the off season. And then I think clearly, sga, love it or hate it, is the best foul artisan on the offensive end of the court in the league. And using that off arm and not getting called for it. Again, love it or hate it, if the refs aren't calling it, that's just called smart. And so I think more than any other team in the league, Zach, this organization understands how important fouling is and knows where those whistles are going to come and how to get them and how to not get them. And I think last year they exploited that on defense better than anybody. On Shay, exploited on offense, arguably better than anybody. So we talk about what's happening in the foul landscape, which. Which I talked about with Bill the other day at.

[A]

Length. Listen, it was a great pod, you and.

[B]

Bill. Oh, thank you. Thank you. It's a high standard that you guys set. And I come in as the bullpen arm and get a chance, but it is the biggest trend. Free throws are up around the league. For those who didn't hear it, fouls are up around the league. But you're right to call this out. I just think that the Dagnolt and that staff and the team understands where those boundaries are, where those infractions are, and knows how to go to the line and not. Not pun intended, knows how to go to the edge of the tolerance and not cross it. I think they're scientific about.

[A]

That. It's just interesting that the uptick in free throw rate around the.

[B]

League.

[A]

Yeah. Has only impacted their offense In a good way. And I think it's because they were already fouling so much on defense that they were, they were sort of like penalized adequately last year. And I don't think they've like dialed back their intensity and physicality. They're allowing the same number of free throws per game. Their free throw rate allowed is the same. The league has just sort of lifted around them and they're being officiated the same way I guess, but not relative to the league. I don't watch them and there's probably two or three non calls a game where I'm like boy that was a lot of like something happened there at the rim or that was a lot of reaching and physicality. There's a few every game that I think they do get away with but you know, other teams get away with other stuff. Your only hope against the Thunder is that their half court offense has one of those stodgy low pass too predictable.

Threes don't fall and you know, they were prone to that a little bit in the playoffs last year and worked their way out of it in some critical moments, particularly against Denver. And I hate to be the bearer of bad news.

I think that's less likely to happen this year for a couple reasons. Number one, the free throws and the primary drivers behind that are Isaiah Joe's getting two or three more attempts for 36 minutes and AJ Mitchell being a huge part of the rotation. He's like second on the team in free throws for 36 minutes and Isaiah Joe's just a better all around player on both ends of the floor. And if you look now like when Shay rests, those were adventurous, nervy minutes of for their offense like J Dub and Chet. All right, go to work. Well, hey, Jdub's just returning. Chet is making a leap offensively in his all around game and now they throw AJ Mitchell out there and Aaron Wiggins who's also making a leap and it's like, boy they got a lot of offense here without shed. Like they're fine. They should be. The numbers aren't great but when they get healthy they should be.

[B]

Fine.

Their offensive efficiency in the half court is, is, what would you call it? Just sort of ho hum average. Good. It's not.

[A]

Great. I'm going to look it up now. I'll bet you it's top eight. I'm going to bet you right now it's top.

[B]

Eight. But you're, you're right to point out it's like okay, that's a relative weakness for this team statistically against, against.

[A]

Maybe elite defenses who will test them with some zone and that's a test they passed against Denver last year and only if they're not on their game generating transition points. If they can buttress bad half court offense game with steals, then it doesn't even matter. But I'm going to look, you talk, I'm going to look up their.

[B]

Half. Yeah. So the signature thing with this defense obviously is the turnover force and more specifically Zach Lowe. The steals and the live ball turnovers that, that everybody's pointed out, everybody on this team seems to be in the top 50 in, in steals. And what does that lead to? Points off turnovers. Right now they have 24.8 points per game off turnovers. Nobody else is even close to 22.24.8. Yeah. So like it's like a star player on their team is the turnover.

[C]

Machine.

[A]

Right. Jamal Murray's scoring average off of.

[B]

Turnovers. That's a. I love when you do that. I love to do that too. It's like that number is like. Yeah, you have Jamal Murray and, and, and I think I stole this from Bill. It might have been you. But it's like their defense goes on runs, dude. Like it, it's, it's also like a star player in that sense. It's like their defense goes on these heat checks where they'll just steal, steal, steal, layup, layup, layup. And you, next thing you know it's an 8, 0 run and your other, your opponent hasn't even taken a shot. So their half court offense may be. Okay, cool. Like you're, you're about to tell me eighth in the NBA, but I don't even care. Okay, so it's better. Of course it is. Of course it.

[A]

Is.

[B]

Third. Third. Come.

[A]

On. Denver is number one. Not surprising. Lakers are number two. Oklahoma City's number.

[B]

Three. I mean they're 21 and one, dude. And they're one loss. This doesn't get brought up enough. They were up by 20 and they lose a tough game in Portland by two.

[A]

Points. They are obviously massive favorites to win the championship.

That said, they won 68 games last year. I think, I don't know. Whatever. They won a lot of games. 68 games. And they were in a seven game series against the Nuggets who had Aaron Gordon on one leg at the end and Michael Porter Jr. With one arm the whole time and no bench. They were in a seven game series in the finals. We know what happened there. I think they're meaningfully better this year. But I think Denver and maybe Houston, I think they're going to have a. This is not going to be a coast to the finals for them. I think Denver, I think their offense is still going to be susceptible to some lulls despite all the numbers I just gave. And I think like if you, if we woke up and it's second right now, it'd be second round conference finals, whatever. And it's two, two pivotal Game five in Oklahoma City. I think that's like wildly realistic. I think Denver and maybe Houston are that good. Like this is. They're the favorites. I picked them to win the title before the season. Duh. I pick them again now. Duh. I don't think it's going to be as easy in the playoffs for them as it is in the regular.

[B]

Season. I thought it'd be easier for them in the playoffs than it was last year. I'm glad you brought that up. The last time they look really beat in the playoffs and earmuffs for my friends in North Texas is that Mav series where Gafford and they, they just overpowered them up front. They went out and get Hartenstein, but I still think I'm picking them as well. I still think that's where they can be beaten potentially is with the Stephen Adams, Shangoon, Jabari, just muscle down low. I think that's the. That's why I put Houston in there. They are. They are that exact sort of team. I think Hartenstein has plugged that hole up pretty well. He's missing some time this year.

[A]

But he has been awesome. I mean, this year he's even leveled up on both ends of the floor. He's a. He's a very, very good offensive player and a good defensive player, but a very good offensive.

[B]

Player. The scariest thing about the Thunder is we're talking about this. So. And you brought it up and framed it so well, too. Zach is like, okay, if I'm the Spurs, if I'm the Rockets, like, when do I take this team on? I think it's I. If I'm the spurs, for instance, and I'm biased, like, it's not this year. But then I look at the Thunder, I'm like, well, they're only getting better. You ain't got. It's got to be worse next.

[A]

Year. It's got to be sometime. It can't be never. Their.

[B]

Core. Which of their core players is getting.

[A]

Worse? Maybe Caruso, Kenrich Williams, who's been good since he came back. I love Ken rich Williams, not.

[B]

A.J. mitchell they. There's. It's, it's crazy.

Maybe. But yeah. So my point is, get comfortable, folks. It's going to be a.

[A]

While. But here's the thing, and you hear this, especially with the Clippers struggles being so magnified in that pick, looking so good. You hear, I'm sure you hear it, people on other teams around the league sort of joking, shrugging their shoulders like, oh, man, it's just a wrap. Like, it's over for a while. And sure, they're going to be awesome for a long time. And this, this, this draft pick situation is crazy. We even mentioned topic. Get well Nikola Topich.

[B]

Please.

[A]

Right?

It's never as much of a rap as it looks like it's going to be. Like, it was a wrap when Durant went to the warriors and they won one title real easily, got pushed to the brink the next year, didn't win the next year and it was over between injuries and cap realities. Like, it looks like a rap. It's just never as much of a rap as you think it's going to.

[B]

Be. But yeah, one last point on that. I don't know if it was you or Wind Horse I was talking to at the Celtics Bucks, like, conference finals, the Grant Williams game. But I said to one of y', all, I was like, we're going to be here for the next 10 years. Watching these two teams go, it felt like a rap, dude. But, yeah, some big news coming.

[A]

Zach. We got news. Giannis out two to four weeks. That's great news. According to Shams, that's great news. It's in line with the cap strain timetable. It is a cap strain and it's great news for Giannis. It's relatively great news for the Bucks in the league. Those two to four weeks are going to be rough times for the Bucks, considering how helpless they look during Giannis's recent injury absence. And I think we'll only the deeper they go into the standings and he's going to be watching like, he's going to be watching how this team plays without him. And the worse it goes, the more the noise will increase and the more we go from I thought this would happen in the summer to maybe it does happen in the middle of the season. But overall, like, thank the basketball gods, this was not what people feared it to.

[B]

Be. How scary was that moment that when you just went to the floor that quick and just like, oh, God, it was terrifying. Just as a fan of the league, but, man, I mean, the Bucks, the Bucks fans had a good night after that if that's possible with Jericho Sims and AJ Green beat and beating the Pistons. So they're hopeful they found something here and they have a chance, the supporting cast to do something they didn't do the last time he missed.

[A]

Games. Those guys you just met. Go ahead.

[B]

Sorry. No, I was just saying to build on your point, this ensemble around him is up on trial and they have failed their first test this season and they have a second test coming up. But what else? Everybody saw him go to the floor last night. I'm telling the Rockets saw it, the Knicks saw it, the Heat saw it. And he's already missed time as you alluded to earlier. This is another part of this now as a 31 year old guy who has a calf strain and that's, that's part of this.

[A]

Equation. I'm looking at their schedule now. They have an interesting stretch coming up. Philadelphia, Detroit, Boston. I mean, if they're serious about staying in the playoff race, Philadelphia and Boston are games you got to try to get like somehow, some way, then it. And they have a Minnesota game in there, in a Toronto game, but they also have in the next. I'm looking through January 10th about. They also have Brooklyn on the road. Must win. Indiana on the road, Chicago on the road. So they're all road games. Charlotte on the road, Washington, Charlotte at home, at Sacramento. Like, that's a few Pentagram teams, a few really bad east teams. Like, like stay afloat. It's. It's. Stay. It. It's. It's not as bad as it could be because if this were a hard part of the schedule, they would just be drawing dead in a lot of.

[C]

Games.

[B]

Okay. We're not going to Washington as their number though, as we saw the.

[A]

Other night without Alex Starr too. I don't want to. Let's. I'm going to table the full All Star discussion because we've gone on long, but we both picked our all star teams. 10. Let, let me rephrase. I went through the players and I wanted to do the ballot because I wanted to pick my teams because I wanted to see how it washed out with international and us players. Because for people who haven't paid attention to the All Star changes. And boy, do I not blame you for not understanding how the All Star game works because God knows I'm just learning it now. You still pick 12. The voter, whoever. You still pick 12. The voters, the fans of media, whatever, pick 12 from each conference. No positions anymore. So 12 East, 12 West, 24 players. If you. And, and we need at least 16American players and at least 8 non American players. If either number falls short of that, then Adam Silver just names more players until you get to that number. So I wanted to just see, like, if I just eyeballed quick, like minimal research, pick my team in each conference, what do I end up with in terms of US versus International?

Yeah, I ended up with. Depending on how you count Towns, who is probably going to be counted as an American player? I would guess I came up with. If you count towns as US, I came up with 15 US 9 international. If you count Towns as international, I came up with 14 US 10 international. So I need to add US players in either scenario. What did you.

[B]

Get? Yeah, pretty much the same. And for those who don't know, Towns is American, but played for the Dominican national team when John Calipari was coaching it and now can never play for Team usa, which is unfortunate for those of us who root for Team USA because he's a rare American big man. But I think for this exercise, I count him as an American.

[A]

Player. Zach, I think you have to, because it just. It's helpful to get up to the. To the 16 number. You want to just name your 12. Let's just name. Just name them 12. 12 East. And I'll do my 12.

[B]

East. I got. Okay, so this is before the breaking news. I have Giannis, Jalen Brown, Jalen Brunson, Cade Cunningham, Jalen Duran, shout out, Tyrese Maxey, Donovan Mitchell, and then I go for the. On an Adebayo, Scotty Barnes. What number is that? 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9. And then this is where it gets interesting. I have to put Jalen Johnson in there, and I think I have to put Norman Powell. He's my last guy. Last guy in is Norman Powell. First guy out is probably Evan.

[A]

Mobley. All right, so here's my 12. And these again, this is eyeball. These are not my final picks. I will make my final picks closer to the time. Jalen Johnson, Jalen Brown, Donovan Mitchell, Cade Cunningham, Norm Powell, Giannis Brunson, Cat Franz Wagner, Tyrese Maxey, Scotty Barnes, and I put Mobley in tentatively as the second guy. But I'm wavering, and I would put Duran over him if I switched with apologies to Siakam. Out of bio. Brandon Ingram, Josh Giddey, and I put Michael Porter Jr. Down. He's having a good year, but the net stink. Give me your 12 in the. But again, preliminary choices, people. Apologies to all. Hoover snubbed. Give me your west, which is much Tougher, by the way, as usual.

[B]

Dude. Start with Stephen Curry and Luka Doncic. Kevin Durant and Anthony Edwards. None of these are controversial. Haven't even got to sga. Nicole Yic, Shengoon and Wemby. Those are locks. Then we go Denny Booker. I have to put Chad in there because I think OKC deserves at least two all stars in this game. And then my last one comes down to Austin Reeves. James Harden.

Got to go to Austin Reeves. I gotta. I gotta reward winning, Zach. When I have these moments with the all I gotta. I gotta reward winning.

[A]

Teams.

Here's where I went. Jokic, Curry, Shen Goon, Durant. You could actually make an argument that Durant is a borderline candidate, but I. He's Kevin.

[B]

Durant. What planet are you.

[A]

On? Well, I mean, look at the names though. Okay, let me start over. Jokic, Curry.

Shengoon, Durant, Luca, Anthony Edwards, sga. Totally agree on Chet. He's got to be on it. Wemby, despite the games played, he's going to get healthy soon. He's obviously going to be on it and make it. I went Jamal Murray after the 52 point explosion last.

[B]

Night. I'm not mad at.

[A]

That. And then I went and I initially had marketing over Murray and I flipped it for winning slash. Jamal Murray just scored 52 points and I'm dumb and I have recency bias. And then I went Denny Abdia and Austin Reaves. So I had no Harden.

And no Booker, which was a tough one. And we'll see how they play into or out of this conversation. And also no Randall. Although if I need to add American players, in the end, all of these guys will be candidates. So we're about on the same page and we will come back to this. But it was fun. It was actually kind of fun to go through and be like, where do I end up? I was like, I want to count on up and I got too many world guys and not enough us.

[B]

Guys. And by the way, this is going to hurt. I. My, my prediction is pain, as they say, for. For Americans watching this, because the world team is going to be loaded and the American teams are going to be. It's split in half the way they're doing this. So even if we have a good group of 16American dudes, they're going to be cut in half. And what are the chances the half is going to work out where you know, we have our best guys. But it's Luca versus Luca.

[A]

Sga. Did I say Luca? I hope I said.

[C]

Luca. Yeah, you.

[B]

Did. Luca Sga Wemby the list goes on of. Of international player Sengun. I just feel that Americans are going to have a tough time. You'll be in the toilets over there at the Intuit, just flushing toilets. But some of us will be watching these international guys just torch the American.

[A]

Team. By the way, I've made my long list. Not going to be a candidate really, but shout out Dylan Brooks. 22 points a game for the Phoenix Suns. Made my long list. Kurt Goldsberry. We'll have to reconvene as we get more data on All Stars because this was actually kind of fun. Do you actually know how the game is going to.

[B]

Work? No, of course not. I don't think anybody.

[C]

Does.

[A]

It's. It's three quarters. The first three are some sort of round robin between the two American teams and then the international team and I guess then there are two teams that are the finals or the fourth quarter. Can we just have a fucking game? Like, why is this so. Like, why am I. Why do I feel like I need to actually study ahead of time for the All Star Game? I don't. I just shouldn't need to. Kurt Goldsberry, what do we got coming up from you? Your gr. Your columns are must read. The graphics on Instagram are. But like, you've had some banger columns.

[B]

Lately. I'm doing this trend spotting thing every week where I'm trying to find trends. So if you see any, send them my way. But I almost. I want to. On behalf of the Zach Lowe show audience, it's great to see you on.

[C]

Prime.

[B]

Zach. It's. It's fun to have you in that mix. What a great group of talent they have. And it's cool to see you up there.

[A]

Buddy. I'm back on December 10th. Another cups night. I'm just trying not to mess it up. As always, Kurt Goldsberry, you're the man. Thank you.

[B]

Sir. Thank.

[A]

You. This episode is brought to you by Loom. Feeling a little stuck at work lately? Stuck. Stuck in email, back and forth, stuck in endless meetings. Get your team unstuck with Loom by Atlassian. Just record your screen, your face, your voice and send quick videos that actually get the message across. Unstuck your process projects and teams with video communication from Loom. Try Loom [e-mail]. that's L O O M dot com. This episode is brought to you by ServiceNow. AI is only as powerful as the platform it's built into. That's why it's no surprise that more than 85% of the Fortune 500 years use the ServiceNow AI platform. While other platforms duct tape tools together, ServiceNow seamlessly unifies people, data workflows and AI connecting every corner of your business. And with AI agents working together autonomously, anyone in any department can focus on the work that matters Most. Learn how ServiceNow puts AI to work for [e-mail] this episode is brought.

[B]

To you by Salty Cheesy Cheez It Crackers. Should this whole podcast just be me eating Cheez It? That'd be a top notch podcast. You could could hear them crunching in my.

[A]

Mouth. You could think about how salty.

[B]

And savory and delicious they are. You can just get Cheez it on the brain. Oh, man, those Cheez it cravings, they get you. Anyway, what was I talking about? Oh, yeah. Oh, Cheez.

[C]

It.

[B]

Yeah. Cheez It Crackers. Go check them.

[A]

Out.

Meet the Mets. Greet the Mets. Step right up and meet the Mets. Bring your kitties and bring your wife. I don't know. I'm saying the words wrong. Sean Fantasy. It's time for Mets corner. Yes, we're back.

Can I tell you a story before we start, please? I'm at the Knicks game last night. Rumor was big big daddy Stevie Cohen was at the game, but I did not see.

[C]

Him.

[A]

Okay. And I get the breaking news alert on my phone that Cedric Mullins has signed with the Tampa Bay Rays. So I text my wife because my daughter misses me when I go to games. She misses.

[B]

Bedtime. She misses the whole.

[A]

Thing. I said, hey, tell Mata, tell our daughter that Cedric Mullins is officially not a Met anymore and signed with the new team. And I text her that I'm on press row. And I get back the following message. Hi, it's Mata. And yes, with like 10 E's and 10 S's. And then I said, I thought you would be happy. And she replies, he, he, he, he, he, I miss you so much. And I said, he signed with the Tampa Bay Rays. And she says, oh, ha ha. And then it just goes from there. So this is where I am in my.

[C]

Life. You've really conscripted her into your fandom in a very specific way. I really relate to that. I'm trying to do the same with my daughter with the jets right now, which is actually evil behavior to be incorporating her in that way. But you, you getting feedback on former members of the team signing with new teams is. That's incredible.

[A]

Stuff. Look, it can only go up for the Jets. I mean, this is the right time to be kind of unaware of the Jets. Yeah, you might get.

[C]

Lucky. I so I predict in 2027 I may get a call from Zach Lowe that says, hey, jets corner. Because things are looking up so much. I'm weirdly positive about the jets right now, but that's not what this conversation is.

[A]

About.

So the off season is underway. We have a lot to talk about. Should we start with Devin.

[C]

Williams? Yeah, I guess. That's the most recent news.

[A]

Right? Signed away from the Yankees three years, $50 million to fortify our leaky bullpen. I did not know anything about him. I have learned that his nickname is Airbender, which is fantastic. Or maybe that's a nickname for his changeup, which is apparently his go to pitch. I love a go to changeup shout out. Trevor Hoffman, the only person who should be ever be using Hell's bells to enter a bas baseball game. Get the hell out of town. Ryan Helsley Gassed up. I hope we gassed up the bus on the way to Baltimore. Hope we flew your coach out there. Boy, this is helpful, right? And it doesn't preclude Diaz coming back. I want. I can't lose Diaz. I want.

[C]

Diaz. I do too. So it. This is all very conditional. 1. Devin Williams. He is a. A significant participant in recent Mets lore, which is that he is the pitcher who gave up the home run to Pete Alonso in the NLDS in 2024, which was an incredible moment, a sort of like fortifying moment for Pete's legacy as a Met. And that was shocking because up until that point, Devin Williams was one of the most unhittable pitchers in baseball for five consecutive years. He was a setup man for years for Josh Hader in Milwaukee. Then he was the closer. He was dealt to the Yankees in the off season. He had a very down first half of the year by his standards and then bounced back pretty well and closed the season very strongly. If he's the closer of the Mets in 2025 or, excuse me, in 2026, I don't. That's not ideal. We still. We still want Diaz back, Zach. We definitely still want Diaz. And now Diaz and Devin Williams together. That's with a little Brooks Rayleigh on top. That's. That's a sexy 7, 8, 9 to.

[A]

Me. Tell me about Minter. This guy that was out for the whole season is, I guess going to be back and people are. You talk very highly of him. Tell me about.

[C]

Him. Longtime setup man, pitched for the Braves for many years. He is 37 years old and that deal that the Stern signed before last season was very risky because he was coming off a very significant injury the season before. He started last season off very, very well and looked exactly like the guy that we were hoping for. But when he got injured, that dovetailed a little bit with when things started to go sideways because he was such a critical piece of the bullpen. And if he bounces back and is healthy this year, Minter, Raley, Devin Williams, Edwin Diaz, that's among the best bullpens certainly in the National League. If Diaz is not back and Minter is not healthy, all of a sudden we're still in a pretty dicey spot. So this is, to me, this is. I'm wondering how you're feeling about all this right now because the, the Devin Williams move is the second consecutive David Stearns move that is entirely conditional. That is like okay, interesting. I'm not sure if I love this, but I like it if other things happen. And that's, that's a weird way to be going through the next 60 days as a Mets.

[A]

Fan. The first one, of course is the Brandon Nimmo, what's this guy's last.

[C]

Name? Marcus.

[A]

Simeon. Simeon trade, which didn't surprise me, honestly. Like even as someone who was recently sort of re in love with the team, Nimmo felt like a it's time to sell high off the best year of his career kind of guy. To me, like just a good outfielder and maybe the had the best year of his career. I did not expect a 35 year old second baseman on the downside of his career. But obviously, I mean like what was your reaction? There was. I couldn't believe the level of shock in Mets fandom. I guess Nimmo is a much more popular player than I understood as a Mets lifer. Were you shocked? What was your.

[C]

Reaction? I think it's reasonable to say he's the the fourth most popular met behind Lindor, Alonso and Diaz. And then obviously now Sono is a member of the team. But I think part of it is that he has been. He was drafted by the Mets in the first round, was developed within the system, and has been a member of the team for roughly a decade. So you've just. We've got a lot of history with Brandon Nimmo and we've watched him change a lot as a player. So I think a lot of the shock was he felt like furniture in the house. And so we just, we moved a couch out, we brought a new couch in. So that's always unusual. My immediate reaction to the trade was Very negative. Because I've been watching Semien, who was once one of the best players in baseball, dramatically decline as a hitter. Dramatically decline. He's still a great defender. And that was the thing that we heard Stern say in the off season. Right. We need to improve our run prevention and in that case it means defense up the middle. And I love the idea of Simeon and Lindor as a double play combination. We've also heard a lot of information about Jeff McNeil in the last couple of weeks and we're going to get there. Yeah. And I don't think anybody thinks Jeff McNeil is going to be a part of this team long term. I'll miss Nimmo. Nimmo was a good player and a useful player and he really loved being a Met. And there's not a lot of guys who played with the Mets for 8, 9, 10 years and just say, man, I love being a Met. You know, like. And if you look at the all time leaderboards for Mets history, he's in the top 10 in a lot of offensive categories just because of his, the duration that he's been with the team and the way that he evolved as a player from, you know, like a high on base, top of the order hitter to slowly evolving into a power hitter. I liked rooting for him. That said, he has plantar fasciitis in his foot and he has a terrible throwing arm and he has limited range in left field. And he is not a player who signed a David Stearns contract. He signed a Billy Epler contract. And so a lot of times new GMs do this. You know, the guys who were not there under their watch move on to new and other players. I'm a little dubious about Simeon having a big bounce back year.

[A]

Though. I mean, what his, his bat declined a lot. Right. Gold Glove. I'm, I'm broadly okay with it if he has a minor bounce back. I just. But to your point earlier, we don't have a couple of outfield spots that need to be accounted for somehow with Soto slotted into right and like we got all these prospects that are in the outfield and Stern's talked about opening up opportunities for them. That's not, not, I mean, unless they're awesome prospects, which I guess they are. That's not something you generally say when you're have the highest payroll in baseball and are trying to like make the World Series. So I'm, I like you. I am interested to see. I've read all the names that are out there. I am all for getting anyone and everyone until there's a work stoppage after the season and then there's a salary cap. Like, let's. Let's get everyone in the door now, but we'll see. Who should I be? Who are the outfielders that I should be enamored.

[C]

With? In the farm.

[A]

System? No, in free agency. I know the guys in the farm system, they're fine. But, like, who can we actually.

[C]

Get?

I mean, Kyle Tucker is the bell of the ball. But if you sign Kyle Tucker, you probably need to put him into right field, which means you're putting Juan Soto in left field, which is.

[A]

Not. We're not preventing runs very.

[C]

Well. It's not really working. I mean, Kyle Tucker is the most elite hitter on the market in that respect, so I don't really see that happening. Cody Bellinger, who is a. Was a New York Yankee last.

[A]

Season. I like him. I like.

[C]

Him. A very versatile player, a player whose numbers are a little distorted by his success at Yankee Stadium. And I don't think he would be as successful with the Mets. But he does allow the team to play him in left, play him in center at times. He's played center field in his career and also play first base. Depending on what happens with Pete Alonso and if he resigns and the desire to have him DH more frequently. Those are basically your two options as free.

[A]

Agents. Let's get Ballinger. I like that. I like that.

[C]

Idea. I think it gives them the most flexibility, and he feels the most sternsy because he's a good defender. He gets on base, he hits for power. He is. He definitely seems like he's stoned sometimes. I'm not saying he is stoned, but he seems a little bit loopy as a person. I don't know if you've ever seen Cody Bellinger. Maybe just Google what his face looks like. He's got a kind of ocean waves chill vibe, which is.

[A]

Not. I'm looking at his baseball reference page right.

[C]

Now. You know what I'm.

[A]

Saying? The Yankees fans in my life really liked him. Every time I turned on the radio, Michael K. Was talking about how great Cody Bellinger.

[C]

Is. He had a great year. To me, if I'm the Yankees, I really don't want to let him go. However, a tricky thing happened to the Yankees, which is that they offered the qualifying offer to an outfielder, Trent Grisham, which was for roughly 21, 22 million dollars, and they were hoping that he would turn it down so that they would get draft picks if another team signed him. But he took the offer. So now they've committed to Trent Grisham who had a good season last year but is not as good as Cody Bellinger. We've heard the Yankees owner Hal Steinbrenner talking about like the budget and how much money did the team make. And we're in this totally distorted, upside down world where the Mets are going to be pushing towards a $400 million payroll and the Yankees are talking about belt tightening. So that in and of itself is something to celebrate. That being said, the Mets have so many holes to fill and I don't know how they're going to do.

[A]

It.

Well, starting pitching, we'll see what happens with Diaz, these outfield spots. What, what.

[C]

Else? Well, you've got four, maybe five second basemen on the 40 man roster, so seems not great. Some of those guys need to get traded. You know, I like the idea of Beatty at third base permanently, him being.

[A]

Ready. I'm ready for Beatty to be a regular everyday part of my.

[C]

Life. But we don't have a left fielder or a center fielder and we don't know if we're going to have our first baseman and if we don't have our first baseman, apparently the fallback plan is Kyle Schwaber who's a DH and doesn't play the field. So then who's playing first base? So there's just a, it's very. For a team, as you said, that is going after the World Series. It's not that this can't be done. It can be done for sure. Stearns is shrewd and Cohen has the pocketbook. But they have to do like nine things in the next.

[A]

Month.

Nine. Okay, well that's a lot, that's a lot of moves. By the way, you mentioned Bellinger projecting his numbers from Yankee Stadium to Citi Field. And you know I was reading about all these things about why Devin Williams era in the mid fours last year was misleading and because of all these other peripheral numbers and indicators and I have to give, I don't know how this happened. Baseball lingo. As the stats have gotten more complicated, the words have gotten simpler. So I'm reading these descriptions like his whiff rate on the change up is X, Y and Z. Like whiff rate, we're just calling it whiff rate. And then the Mets bullpen like led the league in meltdowns last year. Like meltdowns is an actual like quantifiable thing. There's such a thing. Like I like how as, as the stats have gotten so complex. These words are like very user friendly words. Oh, yeah, meltdowns. I know what that.

[C]

Is. It's so true. It was VORP and babip and now it's. It's whiff and meltdown. I feel like the NBA could really use swish rate. You know, there's a few. We could, we could improve some of the NBA statistical lingo as well as that. You should be at the forefront of.

[A]

This. Honestly, I really, I'm. I'm being serious. Like, this is, like, this is a very user friendly, low barrier of entry thing. Okay, we got to talk about the other stuff. Well mentioned first base, Alonzo. It's just like this is all going to get going soon, right? Winter meetings are coming up. Everyone's interested, teams are interested. I will say.

It. It's going to be hard for the low family if he goes to Boston. I don't know if Boston's been ruled out or ruled in because a. My dad is a huge Red Sox fan, but also my dad doesn't want Alonzo. My dad is on the. Is on the. Alonzo's old and not a good defender. And we just don't need to invest a lot of money in players like that. I of course, want Alonzo to stay because I now love him. And that home run you mentioned against the brewers is the moment where I was like, I'm just coming back in. I'm back in.

[C]

Now. I mean, that was the, that was the best moment of the last five years as a fan. I. I'm so torn. I love Pete. I want Pete to be a Met forever. I want him to hit 600 home runs as a Met. We've never had a guy like that. We've just never had a guy like that. I do understand why this is the second consecutive off season where there's going to be a game of chicken with Pete Alonso because it doesn't seem like he has a lot of other suitors. The team that needs him the most is the team that can pay him the most, and that's the Mets. And I guess the Red Sox might be interested in him in a three year deal, but it doesn't seem like anybody wants to go to four, let alone five for Pete Alonso. And so the problem with that is for us in the next few weeks. Winter meetings start this weekend. Reportedly, Kyle Schwaber, the Phillies dh, wants to be signed, wants to have his contract done before the end of the winter meetings. And if that means if the Mets do not get Kyle Schwaber, then they have to sign Pete Alonso, which is not a good situation to be in just because they need to have that, that power in the lineup. So this, none of this stuff works linearly. Like you can't do things in the order that you would like to do them in. And so I don't really. Is there a world where the Mets don't get Schwaber or Alonso and then I don't know how you sell that to the fan base. So.

[A]

I'm. So then is like Mark Vientos the first baseman, who's playing first.

[C]

Baseman? Probably Mark Vientos. I mean maybe you move Brett Beatty to first base. I really don't know what the outcome is there.

To me, it's hard to fathom. Now there is a huge and vibrant trade market in baseball and one of the things that I would love for David Stearns to do is to continue to explore it. Everybody seems to think that the team needs to trade prospects to get a big time pitcher. But I think that they should be also in the market for a big time positional player, especially one that we're not thinking of. Right. That's the thing that happens in all team sports is the whoa, I didn't see that coming. And baseball in particular, and the Mets in particular, because they don't usually leak information, should be able to come through with something we didn't see coming. But I don't, I don't, I don't. If they, if they don't get Schwaber and Alonzo, I'm going to be a little panicked on Mets corner, to be honest with.

[A]

You. Schwarber, you said might have to DH.

[C]

More. He, he's a full time.

[A]

Dh. He's not good at the field anymore. I mean, I know who he is. He's the big burly left handed hitter for the.

[C]

Phillies. Yeah, he's, he's one of the best power hitters in baseball. He had 50 home runs last year. He's older, he's 32, I want to say a year or two older than Pete Alonso. And he apparently is a tremendous clubhouse guy and leader. And that's one thing that I think a lot of teams are interested in is he's a real like. And you know, the Mets may or may not be having some clubhouse issues.

[A]

So. Well, why don't we talk about that? Because the New York Post, Mike Puma, I think is his name, who is now a daily part of my life, wrote this story about the prickly relationship between Francisco Lindor and Juan Soto. Also sidebar, Lindor and Jeff McNeil had a semi heated verbal confrontation over a bad McNeil Fielding play that cost him a game, I think against the Phillies.

You know, I don't know. These guys don't need to be best friends. It was something you could actually just see on TV that all the fun stuff the Mets do. Soto was just kind of like, I'm.

[B]

Too. This is.

[A]

Not. I'm too cool for this. This is not interesting to me. I just want to hit.

Should we.

[C]

Care? I agree with you that they don't need to be best friends. And in fact, like. Like an internal rivalry actually has value at times. You know, like, think of Kobe, Shaq, you know, there are times where guys who are like, I'm the number one guy, or I'm the number one guy. I've heard the comparison a couple of times to Reggie Jackson and Thurman Munson on the Yankees in the 70s as a very famous example of two guys, one who was the captain and one who was the clear best player. And the friction actually created greatness. That being said, I would prefer that they like each other. Call me crazy, but happy teams tend to do better. And we saw in.

[A]

2022. Or do good teams tend to be.

[C]

Happy? Well, that's the eternal question, I guess. I don't know. McNeil is a whole other story. McNeil and Lindor for years have not liked each other. Famously, reportedly, Lindor choked McNeil in the hallway after a.

[A]

Game. You gotta explain the raccoon thing. Like, I was reading this and I was like, is this the Onion or is this a real thing that happened? Can you please explain to me the.

[C]

Raccoon? Uh.

I don't know. Reportedly, the two players got into an altercation in a tunnel after a game. And in an effort to explain away what seemed like a real physical altercation between these two guys who were both very intense players, they claimed that they, like, saw a raccoon in the tunnel and that that's what they were talking about. But that is obviously not true. And it seemed to be a cover for what actually transpired between them. That was. Those were heady times. Those were. That was the pre stern, post Cohen era when everything was really. When we went through three GMs in six months and things were really kind of.

[A]

Erratic. I just would like to imagine the meeting in which those two players and management are like, all right, we gotta come up with something. Like, we gotta come up with some explanation for this. Who like raccoon? Who comes up with this? It's not believable at.

[C]

All. I couldn't tell if it was a riff on McNeil, whose nickname is the.

[A]

Squirrel. Flying Squirrel.

[C]

Right? Yeah. So if it was meant to be some sort of squirrel raccoon situation and they were riffing on that, I don't know. That was an embarrassing moment. That was years ago now, and there has not been much talk since then of McNeil and Lindor having really any kind of relationship, even though they're double play partners. McNeil is very similar to Nimmo in that he's been met for a very long time, you know, as a batting champ, A former batting champ has been a good Met, but I think fans have a more complicated relationship with him because he's bratty and doesn't seem.

Like the most positive spirit in the world. And he's also underperformed two consecutive seasons now. But he's another guy who's a useful player, who's very versatile, who's been, I think it's fair to say, a very good Met. I just think fans are a little bit done with him, and I'll be stunned if he's on the team by.

[A]

March.

Yeah. As a.

As a. Again, a recent reconvert, I was surprised when I learned that McNeil was a batting champion in the past because he's just fine. Like, 12 home runs, 50 RBIs, you know, 300, 330 on base percentage. Like, that doesn't scream batting champ to.

[C]

Me. It was during a season where the shift was still active, and he had managed to evade the shift very strategically. He's always been a very smart hitter because he has to make up for, like, a lack of skill with this strategy that he's deployed. And since that the rules have changed, he has been diminished as a.

[A]

Hitter. So you're not. You're. You would like them to get along, but you're not too worried. I mean, is. Is Lindor just an unassailable met? Like, no. Is. Is there any world in which any of this is Lindor's.

[C]

Fault? Oh, certainly. Of course. I mean, he's a. I think he's a strong personality and he has a flair in terms of how he goes about the game and lives his life. And reportedly, that has, like, rubbed some people the wrong way, the all business types the wrong way. But I love him. The one thing I'm wondering, deep, deep, deep, deep down is, is there any world in which he's traded because he's still an incredibly valuable player? He's very close with Steve Cohen and Alex Cohen, so that makes me think, no. But There's a case to be made that he is still the best all around shortstop in the game and maybe, maybe, maybe second or third and if they want to shake things up, I mean again this is, he was not a Stearns acquisition.

It's a very remote possibility in my mind, but I wouldn't rule it out. To me, Soto is the only player and Nolan McClain are the only two players that I could not imagine them.

[A]

Moving.

You do have to think outside the box. In every sport there's always someone who becomes available that you don't expect to become available and that makes another person that you don't expect to become available, available. And this has been lurking in the back of my head as my biggest off season fear because I have a one year window to cement my daughter as a Mets fan because there's gonna, there's make could be a work stoppage coming up and like, you know, out of sight, out of mind. She's a kid and I mean I, when I say she loves Francisco Lindor, I'm underselling how, how much Lindor is running in parallel to the Mets as the reason that she's even into the Mets. And I told her about this story because I want to keep her informed about what's going on. I told her about Lindor and Soto and her biggest concern is basically like wait, did Lindor do anything wrong, daddy? Or is it someone else's fault too? And I'm like, well, I don't really know the dynamics of it so much. A Lindor trade, no matter what, if it's a unbelievable move that helps the Mets is really going to make my life, my personal life.

[C]

Complicated.

He's got six years and $200 million left on his contract. So I don't think he's going to get dealt that would, it would necessitate a mega trade with another major franchise for that to make sense. And he also, they would be trading for his years. 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 seasons. It's not likely but it could happen under the right.

[A]

Circumstances. It would be the cold hearted forward thinking GM thing to do. Yes.

[C]

Yes. Trading Lindor and resigning Pete, for example, makes no.

[A]

Sense. You know what I.

[C]

Mean?

There is a part of me that believes that Sterns believes that a youth movement makes more sense. That part of the reason why they slow play the Pete Alonso thing, dealing Nimmo, looking at Simeon's much shorter contract as something that comes off the books in a couple of years where you can let the infield talent develop over time, especially with a lockout, that all of those moves are being made to look forward to a future that features Carson Benge, Jett Williams, Nick Morabito, AJ Ewing, Brett Beatty, Nolan McLean, Brandon Sproat, Jonah Tongue, all, all of the Jonathan Santucci, all of these names that we're going to start hearing more and more about over the next 18 months. The Mets have a legitimately great farm system, and Stern's built those brewers teams through the farm with one or two major acquisitions. And there I, deep down, I do think that that's what he wants to do. I do think he wants a team that is built in his image. It's just there's all of this legacy in his way, all of this fan base in his way, with these relationships that we have to these players. The Lindor thing could have gone sideways. His first year with the Mets was a nightmare. And all of a sudden over the course of the last three or four years, he's turned it around and become one of the most lovable players in franchise history. So I'm not saying he's going to get traded. I don't think he's going to get traded. But I do think you're right that that outside the box thinking is necessary after the disaster of last year. So anything's on the.

[A]

Table. I mean, the youth movement thing has, I get the appeal not just from a building the team in his own image thing, but they by all accounts have very, very good young players. And sometimes in baseball, it's a weird sport, long season like these teams sort of rise faster than you think and the chemistry hits and all of a sudden like the brewers are the best team in baseball. Like, I don't know, like I don't know enough about it. But it seems like not a crazy thought to think they could go to the youth movement and still be pretty.

[C]

Competitive. You got to start showing your daughter the baseball perspectives top 100 so she can start getting invested in these.

[A]

Prospects. By the way, years is apparently, I guess, reportedly the sticking point with Diaz too, right? I read something like he wants a five year deal, they want to only give him a three year deal. I guess years is. And it was the big selling point with the Nemo Simeon trade. I guess years is their, you know, flexibility. All this stuff is really at the forefront, top of mind, to use one of my least favorite.

[C]

Sayings. Well, I think it's also about flexibility with not knowing the outcome of the next collective bargaining agreement. You know, if there is in fact a lockout we don't know what the penalties will be against future deals. And so because of that, for example, you know, all of the sort of like the tiers of penalty that currently exist under the system, if those are changed dramatically, that really could punish an owner like Steve Cohen. It could really limit his, you know, he's already limited in terms of draft picks and in terms of being having to pay the luxury tax. If it gets even more onerous on a very wealthy owner with a top of market.

Salary based, then they need to be prepared for that. Especially because there's obviously a lot of other things happening in Mets land, like the building of a.

[A]

Casino.

Yeah, I'm not ready to talk about that whole thing yet. There was a giant New York magazine story that came out this week that it's on my, on my reading list because I, you know, I don't want to really delve into the ugliness, but I, as a responsible fan, I have to delve into the.

[C]

Ugliness. Yeah, I mean I think it's, I think Cohen sees it as a relevant part of being able to be a good owner is to make the businesses around his business coherent and profitable. How he's doing it, we can debate when we know more about.

[A]

It. While I have you on, can I ask you a movie.

[C]

Question? Please.

[A]

Do. You are the co host of the sensational podcast the Big Picture. You and Amanda Dobbins. And I tell you, when I went to see your live show in New York, the level of fandom shocked my wife. Less so me because it's a world podcast. Best host, relationship world. I get it. When you and Amanda walked out, it was, I mean, Beatles esque is probably too.

[C]

Strong. That's a little strong.

[A]

Yeah. There was, there was shrieking. I mean there was shrieking in the crowd. I have to get your take on this Quinn Tarantino, Paul Dano thing. Did you see.

[C]

This? I did, I.

[A]

Did. It's not AI. It's a real.

[C]

Thing. It's a real.

[A]

Thing. He really was like, Paul Dano sucks, basically. And he's. Yeah, he almost ruined There Will Be Blood for.

[C]

Me. Tough one. There Will Be Blood. One of my absolute favorite films of all.

[A]

Time. Me too. It's a perfect.

[C]

Movie. Yes. A perfect movie. No question about it. Quentin, somebody I've gotten to know over the years who I really, really like a lot. And he, so he shared it on the Brett Easton Ellis podcast when he. Where he shared his favorite movies of the century. That's where this.

[A]

Conversation. I like the.

[C]

List. Yeah, really interesting list, classic Tarantino list, where he's putting you onto things you've never heard of. He's, you know, identifying movies that maybe you wouldn't think of would be in that spot, but they're very, you know, there's a good case for them. You know, a couple of the movies on the list, we did episodes with him on the Rewatchables 4, Dunkirk, unstoppable. So it's a really interesting list.

He talked about There Will Be Blood and said that There Will Be Blood would be probably his number one movie of the century if not for the performance of Paul Dano, which he called weak and called sort of the weakness of the film. Paul Dano, he's one of my favorite actors. I just don't agree with Quentin, who I really love and respect, but I find that shocking because to me, he makes the movie work. And you need someone opposite Daniel Day Lewis giving the powerhouse performance of the century who you do hate, who you see as a funhouse mirror image of what's wrong with masculinity and the world. So I didn't get. I didn't.

[A]

Agree. I haven't seen the movie in a while. I've seen it maybe three times because it is such a masterpiece and I know Day Lewis is so good in it. I found Paul Dano perfect as this sniveling, weak wannabe, powerful, but actually weak at heart, weakling coward.

And I found their relationship to be fascinating. And obviously it ends in a certain way. I just never. I don't think I've ever heard anyone criticize the performance in the movie, let alone just come out and be like, I hate this.

[C]

Guy. So in fairness to Quentin, he has always said this because he talked about There Will Be Blood when it was released and talked about it being a masterpiece. And he and Paul Thomas Anderson have been friends for years, and they have, I wouldn't say like a rivalry per se, but they inspire each other and are attempting to one up each other, I would say, in some ways. And you know, Paul loved Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, and I think Quentin loves one battle after another, although he has not talked about it publicly. But he has always held that Paul Dano is the weakness of the movie, going all the way back to 2007. And in fact, you know, there's a little bit of lore around that, which is that Paul Dano was not.

[A]

Supposed to play that.

[C]

Part. There was another actor who was cast in that role, and Paul Dano was playing another, much smaller role. I think he was playing the Other brother, and it wasn't a twin.

[A]

Brother. I can't remember. Yeah, there are twins. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. I think he was playing Paul and another actor was playing Eli, and that other actor, for whatever reason, didn't work out, and they moved on. And PTA decided to make Dano.

The whole enchilada, and it worked out for the best. That movie's fucking.

[A]

Amazing. Didn't get it. But, you know, look, everyone has their tastes. Sean Fennesee. It's wonderful to reconvene from Mette's Corner. I guess I gotta buckle up. This could be interesting. It. It's gonna be fascinating in a month, what the team looks like. But spring training, I mean, opening days in March, like, late.

[C]

March. I mean, it could. The team could look dramatically different in, like, three days. Zach. Like, we. Anything's on the table right now. All.

[A]

Right? It's that time. It's. I guess I'm used to this from the NBA. I'm just not used to caring about what's going on in another sport. All right, Sean Fennesee, the big picture, et cetera. The best. Thank you.

[C]

Sir. Great to see you, buddy. Thank you so.

[A]

Much.

All right, that's it. Thank you all for listening. It was a loaded show today. We'll be back next week with another edition of the Zach Low Show. Unless something crazy happens in the next 48 hours, and you never know. Thanks to Jonathan, Jesse, Mike and Billy on production. Thanks to all of you for listening and or watching the Zach Lowe Show. We'll see you soon.

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