← The Zach Lowe Show
The Zach Lowe Show
Game 7 Baby! OKC-Denver Breakdown With Andrew Schlecht, and a Warriors Postmortem With Logan Murdock
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- [00:00]
Zach Lowe
You're listening to the Zach Lowe show, sponsored by FanDuel, America's number one sportsbook has made it easier than ever to get in on the action during an NBA playoff game. That's right now, even after tip off, just look for the live SGP tab on the FanDuel Sportsbook app and build your bet slip. Then sit back, relax and track the outcome of your parlay right in the app. And if you don't already have it, download the FanDuel app today to make every moment more the ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available and listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Must be 21 and over in President Select State's gambling problem. Call 1-800-Gambler or visit rg-help.com starting a business can seem like a daunting task unless you have a partner like Shopify.
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Andrew Schlecht
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Zach Lowe
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Andrew Schlecht
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Zach Lowe
Mattel, Heinz and Allbirds continue to trust and use them. With Shopify on your side, turn your big business idea into Sign up for your $1 per month trial@shopify.com special offer all right, coming up on the Zach Low Show Game seven, baby, the two sweetest words in sports. We've got Andrew Schleck coming on to preview. Thunder Nuggets, little Knicks Celtics interlude ahead of tonight's game. And then Logan Murdoch on okay, what happens to the warriors now? All coming up on the Zach Lowe Show. Welcome to the Zach Lowe Show. It's Friday morning and we have at least one, maybe two. We'll see what happens tonight. But at least one. Game seven in what has been a series that has exceeded the considerable hype and exceeded my considerable expectations. A series that has been a defensive war between the best defense in the NBA and a defense that has found some answers against the Thunder offense that is searching for some answers. Nuggets Thunder a tactical war Just there's so much high level stuff going on in this game to help us break it all down and look ahead to the two sweetest words in the English language. Game 7 Andrew Schlecht, co host of the down to Dunk Podcast. He works for the Athletic. He's all over the airwaves. He's based in Oklahoma City. Down to Dunk is a Thunder podcast. If you don't know Andrew, are You ready for the biggest Oklahoma City Thunder game in nine years? And I don't need to go back to what was happening nine years ago. Are you ready for what that atmosphere is going to be like? Are the young guy. Are you ready? Are the young guys ready? Is Isaiah Joe ready? Are you ready for Julian Strother to be throwing flamethrowers like Klay Thompson 2.0? Are you ready?
- [02:49]
Andrew Schlecht
I'm ready. I don't know if Isaiah Joe's ready, but I'm definitely ready for game seven, ready to be in the building. This is what you go through all the tanking for. This is what you go through all the rebuilding process for. This is why you let Poku throw behind the back passes, out of bounds. Like to get to this point where you're playing a game 7.
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Logan Murdoch
Poku.
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Zach Lowe
Poku coming up. A minute in. We're on fire. Let's do it.
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Logan Murdoch
Yeah.
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Andrew Schlecht
I can't wait to be in the building. It's going to be absolutely electric. The crowd in game five was unreal, and I think that they have another level to get to. So I'm pumped to be. Be able to be in the building.
- [03:21]
Zach Lowe
Look, forget the teams. This is why we do this. This series and this game is why anybody follows sports. This has been the perfect series. The perfect series. It is such a classic NBA series. It's the young team against the old Lion. Denver's not that old. Just let me have the trope, okay? It's the young team climbing and scrounging to seize its place at the top of the hierarchy, to knock the old king. Not the king last year, but, you know, the reigning MVP and all that. Knock him off the mountaintop. And it's just like a classic young team. They have moments. They've had moments where it looked like they're frazzled, it's coming apart. Maybe they're not ready for this. And they have to battle through them and prove in those hothouse moments that, yeah, we. We are ready for it. Game four, I think, was the most telling one. It felt like it was unraveling in Denver. It felt like it was going to be 3:1, Nuggets. The offense was stalling out, the zone was working. And Wiggins, Caruso, Wallace hitting threes, reset the team. Then game five, it's nip and tuck in Oklahoma City. If you lose that game at home, Denver's up 12. You're going to Denver facing elimination. It's not going great. And Lou Dort 2 for 10. The previous game, Lou Dort shot himself out the damn game. Previous game, Lou Dort, just to settle down, settle down. I got this moon ball, ceiling scraping threes to get the Thunder inching, inching, inching. And then shouldn't be overlooked because they go on and win by 6 or 8 or 9. When Jokic hit the Sombor 3, the ridiculous Sombor 3 that only he can hit a 3, that when it went in, somewhere in the world, Anthony Davis felt a shudder go down his spine because he's seen that in his face in a big playoff moment when he hit that shot. Yeah, it was in Oklahoma City and they're at home. That was another moment where it was like, okay, what do you got? Cuz the big fella just did that in your freaking face. When you had some momentum and tied the game, just. Jalen Williams hits a three, Shay hits a three. And then last night, the opposite happens. The old lion, aging old lion. They're teetering. Oklahoma City. You could feel it, right, Andrew? Second quarter, Oklahoma City goes up 12. And there's a stretch of like six minutes in the second quarter where Denver cannot do anything on offense when they can't even inbound the basketball at one point on offense, what? Oklahoma City's defense reached a level of precision and frenzy, and it's hard to be both at the same time, both precise and frenzied. And Denver could not score. And it felt like, oh, and Chad, who's been a bellwether in this series, has a nice up and under against Jokic. And aliyu hits a three to put him up 12. And it's like, okay, the young team is here. They've arrived. The old team is on the ropes. They can't figure out this defense. This is the moment for the nuggets. And in 1 minute and 45 seconds, they go on a 12o run. That was the key stretch of the game. Then they pull away. Every game has had a different hero. This is just like. It's. It's too good. It's too good. I don't want it to end.
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Andrew Schlecht
Yeah, tactically, it.
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Logan Murdoch
The.
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Andrew Schlecht
Every game has been so different. I think that's what's been fascinating about it is like one game, like the thing that kills the Thunder is the rebounding. The next is the shooting. It's not just like one thing. And that's what's so great about it, is that you have these two juggernauts just like blow for blow. Like, it is. It is like what you would want out of a playoff series. This is. I've. I've talked to a bunch of people after the games, and, like, this is, like, this is the kind of basketball you want to watch in the playoffs. Like, these are two teams that have a lot at stake, that have, like, two of the best players. I mean, honestly, I think we'll look back at a series like this 15, 20 years down the line and think about, like, Shay and Jokic as, like, two of, like, the best players to ever do it. And so I think, like, just trying to take in that moment while watching the series, I guess it's pretty cool. And like, there's a lot to break down here, like, with J Dub and everything, but when it comes down to, like, these are two very good teams that have been coached very well, and I'm excited for game seven. I don't. I don't know what's going to happen.
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Zach Lowe
Did you. Did you think. I don't remember exactly what the scores. When they went up 12 in the second quarter and Denver.
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Andrew Schlecht
Yeah.
- [08:00]
Zach Lowe
You will not see the Nuggets offense in a way like that, ever. I mean, they were strangling the Nuggets offense. And of course in there, SGA picks up his fourth foul on a stupid region, which really helped turn the game. They've. They're in minus five for the series with Shea on the bench. Yeah, but did you think. I mean, I felt, and I wonder if you felt like, oh, this. This is it. They've arrived. The four games, four and five were the mountain, and now this is like kind of going to be the coronation. Did you start to feel that at all? Because I'm not. I can't lie. I picked OKC in six, and I. I felt it at that moment.
- [08:37]
Andrew Schlecht
Yeah, they're at 58, 46 in that moment. I think they had three steals during that run. You know, Shea had 10 points during that run. I think Chad had nine. And you just thought, okay, this. This looks like it's it. And then as they unraveled during that 12, three run, where Dort ends with that corner three, it. It felt more like the series. There have been only really just been one game that's felt like that in game two, where the Thunder just dismantled them. But the rest of it has been, I think if you're either the Thunder or the Nuggets, I think there's been a lot of moments where, I think in game five, if you're the Nuggets, you probably feel like, man, we should be up 20 right now, you know, for the Thunder, I felt like there were moments where there have Been like, yeah, they should be up 20 right now instead. Yeah, I thought that was going to be it. I thought that was going to be the run. I thought they were going to get enough distance and just. We've seen enough games like this from the Thunder where they go on these runs and then they're able to just keep the 9, 10 point distance and they'll go on another run where they push to 20. It did feel like that's where we were headed.
- [09:36]
Zach Lowe
I felt it. I mean, I was, I was starting. I mean, I. You know, when you get a series like this, you start thinking about big picture implications for whichever team loses. Right. And so my brain naturally has. Or I've already started thinking about like, where does Denver go from here? And it happened fast. Like, to the Nuggets credit, they turned it fast. And a guy who deserves a ton of credit for that run in last night is Christian Brown. Yeah, he started it with a three against, against the Thunder. I think the Thunder might have been. I can't remember if they were. I don't know what defense they were playing. They played zone a little bit here and there last night. Couple possessions and he was like, we got nothing going on. I'm bringing the ball up. U turn. I'm just jacking this three. And it went in. And somewhere in there is a Caruso miss. After Shay goes out with four fouls, Aaron Gordon run out dunk. Brown hits another three against the zone. And it just happened so fast. Not a coincidence that I think it happened when Shay went out because their offense looked a little rattled without Shay. And then as you mentioned, Dort hits the big three to put him up three at the half. I mean, that was, that was, that was the game right there to me. I mean, the game was decided later, but Denver's ability to climb back into the game in a blink was just a testament to their toughness. And they overcame a great Shay game last night. Shea was cooking last night. 32 points on just 16 shots, 11 free throws. He's. He's learned to pick his spots and run the ball up the court and find times to attack early before Denver can set. It's weirdly effective zone defense. Denver, I guess, is now the Miami Heat. They just play zone like they've just become a zone team. And the cool thing about this series is you said every game has been tactically different. That's true. Every game has had a different, like, hero story to it. And we can go back through them if you want. But just like every game, it's been so much fun. And game seven is going to be, is going to be wild.
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Andrew Schlecht
Yeah, it is. And I mean, Julian Strother's the hero of last night. I mean, I don't think, I don't know who would have predicted that Julian Strother is going to come off the bench and score 15 points, go on his own personal eight zero run. You know, we talk about like moments that define the game. I think that 80 run defined the game too. Like, I think that every, you know, both these teams need one of those guys to step up. You know, I think last night, if the Thunder hang on, I think it's probably Case and Wallace that we're talking about today as the guy that made the difference off the bench. But Julian, this is the Julian Strother game. They needed it. He was so hyped. I mean, if you're a Denver fan, there's probably nothing more fun than watching him like after a make, like talk to his teammates, just like, can you believe this is happening? It's kind of like how it felt after every shot that he made. I thought, you know, obviously he was great.
- [12:21]
Zach Lowe
Look, I'm not going to say I predicted it, but about 10 days or a week ago on this podcast, I jokingly said to some, I don't know who even the guest was. I said, look sheepishly, I said, look, I know I'm higher on this guy than probably anyone except for Calvin Booth, but I just wish that Julian Strother did not have these mid season injuries two years in a row that sort of undid any attempt he had to crack the rotation and earn the coach's trust. Cause I think they need him and I think he can play. And so last night it was rocking in the Strother Straits. It's not an island, it's a straights. It's me and Calvin Booth and where and a few other random people, members of Julian Strothers family, pounding my ties and just loving life on Strother Straits. It's a wild experience, man. Like you mentioned, he gets hyped. I think the Nuggets would like him to be a little less hyped because defensively he's just kind of running around out there doing stuff and like doesn't even know really where he's going or where he should rotate and it's just sort of a matter of time until he just runs into a screen and falls over or misses a rotation completely. Just like settle it down. But to your point, like Russ was bad last night, we Got bad Russ again. And Peyton Watson is just. He's going to top out at like 11 to 12 minutes. They just. They need somebody. Somebody else. And it was Strother. Do you want to. Can we just go back through every game real fast and just like the. The craziness of every game?
- [13:51]
Andrew Schlecht
Yeah, I'd love to.
- [13:53]
Zach Lowe
So if the Thunder lose this series, lose game seven at home, I think they're going to look back at game one as just the game that they will rue forever because they should have won the game.
- [14:05]
Andrew Schlecht
Definitely.
- [14:06]
Zach Lowe
They overthought their defensive matchups, starting with Chet on Jokic. I couldn't believe they did that. I mentioned in my preview that I didn't think that would happen. I thought that was a bad mistake. Defouling up 3, mismanagement of timeouts, letting Jokic get back on the floor, all of it was a disaster. But, you know, that's a Jokic game. 42 points, 22 rebounds, and Caruso was awesome in that game. Game two is the blowout, by the way. The Thunder for the series are plus 32, but Denver is plus 11. If you exclude game two. I know you can't just exclude game two because it's whatever, but it's. It's plus 32 is incredibly misleading, obviously. Game three, another. You're going to rue this one game, but not as bad as game one. Up three. Shea has the ball, 40 seconds left, misses a decent shot. Aaron Gordon. Aaron Gordon should have mentioned him in game one. Has the big three to put Denver up at the end of game one after Chet misses two free throws, you know, another three at the end of game three to tie the game at overtime, they lose. That's the MPJ game, if you want to hear over from that game. MPJ playing one arm, 21 points on seven of them, shooting. Game four, I mentioned the bench, guys. Game five, I mentioned Dort. Game six is Strother. Which of those games do you think they would regret more? Game one or game three?
- [15:28]
Andrew Schlecht
It's got to be game one, because it was like all these controllable things for the Thunder down the stretch of that game.
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Logan Murdoch
It.
- [15:34]
Andrew Schlecht
It felt like it was a game that they made a ton of mistakes in, but was absolutely still winnable. I mean, the fact that they fouled up three as quickly as they did was a huge mistake. The fact that you're fouling in the back court, up three, it just felt like rookie mistakes for them in the playoffs, which you just really can't have in round two against a team like Denver. So I, I think it's absolutely, I think it's absolutely game one, Game three was, was rough, but it was more like normal basketball rough. Like, yeah, sometimes these things happen. Like this happens if you're playing a seven game series, a game like that's going to happen. Game one felt way more like in the Thunder's hands, controllable. They should have had that one. But they let go of the rope. You know, Chet misses the two free throws down the stretch. I know he really beat himself up about it. But like, yeah, that's the, that's the one where if, like Thunder. I think a lot of Thunder fans are sitting at home thinking this should be over right now because of game one.
- [16:32]
Zach Lowe
Well, it's not. And that's what Denver does. If you give them life in these close games. They have the best clutch player in the league. Apologies to Jalen Brunson. They have the best player in the league. Apologies to say Gil Shay, Gilgis Alexander and all of Oklahoma City. And they just like they've lived these moments. I mean this feels like the 20th, seven game series that Jokic has played.
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Andrew Schlecht
Yeah.
- [16:54]
Zach Lowe
And I said before the series and arguing with a couple of people again, I picked Thunder and six. I remember saying Thunder. I thought, I thought the Thunder should win and I just thought Thunder and five, which a couple people I know were picking that like Jokic doesn't lose short series when the team is healthy. Like when they had no Jamal, no Michael, whatever. Yeah, they lost like to the sun, swept them, whatever. He just doesn't. And they just find a way to win these games. It's also cool. Like these teams are, are playing to type a little bit. Denver is plus 19 in free throw attempts. I think that's actually a win for the Thunder that it's just plus 19 because the Thunder foul a lot and they don't get to the line much. OKC has forced 33 more turnovers than Denver. Playing to type. Denver is a big plus on the offensive glass. Playing to type. As we go to game seven, we can talk tactics if you want and things that I think Denver has figured out in game five and six and what might portend out of that for game seven. Or we could talk about Jalen Williams and I think we should probably talk about Jalen Williams who is averaging 16 a game on 33% shooting and has had precisely one good offensive game in the entire series. And if you take that, I believe that was game three. And if you take that game out, he's averaging 13 points. A game on 28% shooting. And when Strother closed over Michael Porter Jr. Last night, and if we see that lineup again, which I suspect we will, Denver had to rejigger the matchup so that Jamal Murray was on Jalen Williams. And, like, they keep putting Jamal Murray, when they have to, on Jalen Williams and Chet Holmgren, who are my two biggest X factors of the playoffs, and kind of waiting to see if either of those young rising stars can do anything about it. And so far, they haven't. Well, Chet's had some moments, and Chet was big, not necessarily against Murray, but he was big last night. So I ask you, as someone who's watched every game of this team, who's talked to these guys a million times, what is. Is this just a guy missing shots? What do you think his mindset is going into game seven? Like, what's. How worried or what's going on here?
- [19:19]
Andrew Schlecht
Yeah, I, I think there is a pretty high level of concern after you list all that out, because, like, everything else is working. Like, defensively, I think he's been really good. I think, no question, they're all really good. Yeah, as a passer last night, he's really good. But, like, you need him to make shots. Like, you have to have the second score in J Dub, and he hasn't shown up. I mean, he's had plenty of, like, really good opportunities. You pause it when he takes the shot. Like, I don't think that you have an issue with the shots that he's getting. It's just like these normal shots that he would make. He's missing. I mean, he missed the Duncan transition down the stretch of that game when there was still like a sliver of hope for the Thunder. He missed a. Missed a wide open dunk.
- [19:59]
Logan Murdoch
Well, a couple times.
- [20:00]
Zach Lowe
Not only that, I hate. I'm sorry to interrupt you, but we should mention another massive play in that game was 93, 86, Thunder down seven. Peyton Watson chased down block on Jalen Williams. And then Denver comes and gets a basket right away. A Russ put back to go up to nine. Like the five to nine swing. It wasn't a miss dunk. It was just a great play by Peyton Watson. Anyway, continue on Jalen Williams.
- [20:22]
Andrew Schlecht
Yeah, he. He did that twice last night where he is going for the reverse instead of just trying to go hard to the hoop, which is. It was in a couple, like wide open. Like, hey, you should have this kind of plays or at least get fouled and go to the free throw line, which he has zero free throws. Last night too. Like he just doesn't really have it going from anywhere. And the one thing that I wonder about is like, how do they leverage he and Shea together? Because like last night you can look at it and it's like, oh, their playmaking is really good. 16 assists between Shea and Dub. Neither of those guys assisted to each other last night. And so I wonder like, how do they leverage those two guys talent to like help each other out? Because like those guys are good at getting everybody else going, but they haven't quite figured out how to get each other going, which I think is like really key to like a, a duo of, you know, Shay and J Dub like figuring things out. I think that they need to have more action where they're playing off one another and getting each other in easier spots, but they've just kind of struggled to do that. And so, you know, Shay last night said he did feel like there were things they could do to get Jada in better spots and to get easier shots. He said, I'm not going to share what that is, but I wonder if we'll see them playing off one another a little bit more than we've seen so far in this series.
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Zach Lowe
Throw some split actions in there.
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Andrew Schlecht
Yeah.
- [21:45]
Zach Lowe
If Jamal is on Jalen Williams, have him set some screens and have him vary it up. Have him slip, have him or, or inverted pick and rolls with Shay as the screener. Shea is an incredible screener as, you know, like just, you know, and flare out of some of those. Slip some of those. Whatever. I'm going to ask you a very unfair question. I'm going to just be upfront about it. If they lose game seven and Jalen Williams is meh again, you know what the obvious question is going to be? Yeah, it doesn't seem like a Presti move to make a rash young rising star for older prime age, whatever established superstar having set up his cap sheet precisely for the second apron era. We're going to have these three max guys. You know, we've got guys on Caruso's on a mid tier extension, Hartenstein's on a pretty high tier, but not max contract. Movable short young guys are coming up. We're going to sort of flip pieces as we go. Kayson Wallace probably looks like a member of the prime if we get the cor rather if we can keep them around. Seems. Seems like a non presti move, but as you know, this would be the second straight year that they would lose in this round. I'm not. I think they're. I picked them to win the series. So I guess I have to say I think they're going to win Game seven, but you just have to start thinking about these things. Be the second straight year they lose in this round would be the second straight year that the two supporting guys kind of don't give you enough in this round. And the Thunder have every trade asset in the world to try to do something. Is this even a conversation?
- [23:28]
Andrew Schlecht
I honestly don't think it is. I think that they have. I think that they planned for this team to go into next year, no matter what happens, as like, pretty much the same squad. Like, and like the Giannis question is one that I think that you have to talk about, but it really does mess up their cap sheet. I think that that one of the goals is like, have a very long run with this team. And Giannis would complicate that pretty quickly as to what you could and couldn't do to keep role players. But I know it's going to be a topic of conversation. I know that it's something that we'll have to talk about if they do lose Game seven. But you know that we, we saw them in a similar position in 2012 where they lose in the Finals. James Harden was very underwhelming. And I'm not saying that, like, the underwhelming finals led to the trade. I think there are a lot of things that led to the trade. But you trade this up and coming guy who's up for extension and he goes on to be an MVP and, you know, rise to, like, really high levels, at least during the regular season and some during the playoffs. I think that that's. There's some, probably some regret around that. Now, we're not talking about the Thunder trading J Dub for, like, Kevin Martin and draft picks, but, you know, I think that you have to look at that experience that Presti's already had and say, like, you know, what should probably stay the course with a guy who just made the All Star team, you know, hope that he figures it out. You have he and Chet, like, if you were to, like, take a guess, like, who's going to be the number two option in three years if these guys are all still together? You know, I think that you'd have people in both camps for who's the third option. So I think they're in a good spot. You know, they won 68 games. But, you know, what counts as the playoffs, like, these are the games that count. And so if, you know, a lot of people are questioning Jalen Williams today. But I think it'd be really short sighted to trade a guy like that because, like, if you say, like, hey, Jalen Williams is available via trade, you're getting a call from 29 teams asking, okay, how do we get that guy? And so I, I don't think that that's the kind of player that you trade.
- [25:34]
Zach Lowe
So I was going to be polite and not even bring up the ghost of Harden. So you brought it up for the record. I didn't bring it up. I was just going to let it sit over there hovering, hovering. Getting ready to go to the club and have some fun.
- [25:45]
Andrew Schlecht
It's hovering.
- [25:46]
Zach Lowe
The ghost club wasn't even going to bring it up. You know, I, I think you're probably right, and I think that's probably the right thing to do. The only hesitation I would say is this. Giannis is the one you have the meeting about. Giannis. Giannis is that good and that guy. And by definition, it would be short sighted. By, by literally, by the most literal definition, it is short sighted. It is shrinking your window to build a great team because of age and salary cap concerns.
- [26:19]
Logan Murdoch
Yep.
- [26:20]
Zach Lowe
And all the other stuff you'd have to include. It's not like, going to be a straight up trade. This is Giannis.
- [26:25]
Andrew Schlecht
You have to be Hardenstein. Like, Dort may have to be involved as well. Like, you're, you're trading, like a lot of good players to get him. Yeah.
- [26:37]
Zach Lowe
It'S Giannis, and you have to have a meeting. And we have seen, I mean, very recent examples like this week of these title windows come and go faster than you think they're going to come and go. No matter how young your team is, no matter how deep your team is, you can't sit here ever and be like, well, we're going to have like a Patriots run like that just has there. Like, the Celtics are the closest ones to having had that. And they passed up on lots of opportunities to trade probably Jalen Brown for an older superstar, and they were paid off for doing that. Whether it was Kawhi, Paul, George, Jimmy Butler, they were paid off. But they won one title and now they're a wash for a year and a half minimum next season and who knows what else. But I think you're still probably right. And to your, Giannis is the right name because J Dub was already a borderline all NBA player this year. I did not have him on my all NBA team. I suspect he'll make a lot of ballots because the Thunder were that good. And so, like, you know, I'm just making up names like Devin Booker. Like, they're. They were roughly equivalent players this year. I think Devin Booker's a better player and fits what they need offensively better than J Dub does. But it's. That's, like, that's not. That's not moving me. If I'm the Thunder. Giannis is at least like, okay, I. This is a guy who's in the MVP top five every year. We already have a guy who's probably going to win mvp, but I think you're probably right. And I'll tell you another reason why I think it's an unfair question. I had somebody. I had two, actually. I was at the combine during game five, and I had two, except. But I. And I eschewed, eschewed, eschewed, eschewed all dinner invitations that night because I was like, I'm sorry. I'm watching the game in my hotel room. And by the way, I have to tell a ringer Spotify story while I do this. I saw Rusillo at the combine that afternoon, and I was like, hey, man, I might want to watch the game tonight. If you want to watch it together, like, grab a beer, you sit at the bar and, like, I know we're probably going to have to re. Watch it the next morning because we're serious. And Russello just. I admire it so much because it reminds me of people who are like when. When you meet one of your friends on the platform of a commuter train, and then one of you has to be like, all right, this conversation is over. I need to work on the train. Rusula was like, I'm going to be honest. I'm not going to see it tonight. I'm going to watch the game in my hotel room. I was like, you know what? I should do the same thing. I got. I got. I love it. I got two texts from two separate executives after that game, after the Thunder won that game, saying some version of that game might have been the NBA championship right there. And that's why I think the question is a little unfair. This series could be the NBA Finals. I frankly, particularly given what's happened to Boston and Cleveland, I frankly think that's a little bit disrespectful to the Timberwolves, who have been awesome and have played these two teams really, really well.
- [29:33]
Andrew Schlecht
Definitely.
- [29:35]
Zach Lowe
And are on a roll and are healthy and deep. But, like, that's the level this series is like. You can call it a second round series and frame it that way. Oh, another second round disappointment. Or you could Say it's two teams who can clearly win the championship. For all Denver's flaws, they are proving in this series they can win the NBA title with Michael Porter Jr playing with one arm. So that's, I think it's a little flip to say, oh, this is like game seven is the whole NBA championship. I think it's a little flip and a law unfair to Minnesota. But I also don't think it's a ridiculous way to view the remaining landscape of the playoffs.
- [30:13]
Andrew Schlecht
No. And that's why I think game seven will hurt either one of these teams so much because you look at the road ahead and you think Minnesota is really good, but that's not an unbeatable team. And then you get to the Finals and it's one of these three remaining east teams and you have to be. It's just a gut punch, I think, because you have. There's an opportunity there for a title for the Thunder. It's for their first title, one that's been elusive to them in the past. They've had these great teams and all these great players and all these, all NBA guys and, you know, haven't done it yet. And this is probably their best shot. I mean, it's definitely their best, best shot since 2016. But when you look at the landscape of everything, like there's no LeBron waiting in the Finals, like this is their best shot at like a title period. And so I do think that there is a lot of pressure that exists within that. And then like for either team, I think it's a lot of disappointment because this is a, this is the shot. I think for both teams. You look at the Nuggets too, like you have to give them so much credit and like what David Adelman has done to like get them to this point to a Game seven and what Jokic has done, I mean, it's, it's incredible. And I think it will feel, I think for both teams, I don't think that there's. For either one is going to feel worse, but like they're both going to feel just awful knowing the opportunity that's ahead.
- [31:38]
Zach Lowe
It's amazing. You know, first of all, David Adelman deserves to keep the Nuggets job full stop.
- [31:46]
Andrew Schlecht
Yeah.
- [31:46]
Zach Lowe
Second of all, you mentioned Jokic and obviously he had a masterpiece in game five. And I can tell you from being at the combine and talking to people that the Nuggets were keenly aware that they, quote, wasted an all time Jokic performance because of the underwhelming rest of team supporting cast around him that night. I'm looking at the box score from last night. Yeah, 23 from Brown. You focus on that. 25 for Murray. Didn't end up being a great Murray game, but was good enough particularly early. And then you just sort of, you just scroll past, oh, 29, 14 and 8 on 9 of 14. Shoot. Like, you just take these games for granted because it's not a crazy game. He started kind of slow, and then you look at the box score, it's like, oh, he actually led the team in all three categories again. And, and like, made a big defensive play on Chet late in the game. It's like, incredible how good this guy is. And Shea was awesome. And Shea was awesome in Game 5. Down the stretch, too. Made the biggest shot of the game, prop maybe to put them up six on a play where they put Jokic through the torture chamber of multiple pick and rolls, and he just was not up high enough. And it's just been. This is just like, you're talking about game seven and pressure and championships. I'm literally getting goosebumps as you're talking. This is why we do this. This is the ga. This is the game of the, of the NBA calendar. It's, it. Maybe there'll be one that replaces it later in the playoffs. And I just want to say, for the record, we're talking About Jalen Williams 3 of 16. The mental toughness these guys have to play under these circumstances and just sort of free their minds and play. I, I, would I choke in a game of horse against my daughter if there's pressure on the line? Okay. It's like, it's like, I, I, I would, I would want, like, when I watch soccer, penalty kicks. I've said this before. I just would be like, coach, I'm not taking one. Just take me out of the, like, I want no part of it. These guys, the mental toughness and the ability to just, if I fail, move on to the next thing is just incredible.
- [33:48]
Andrew Schlecht
Yeah. The pressure of even, like, fans watching it. You can feel it. I think there's times where it's like, man, this is incredible. Like, I can't believe we get to watch this game. There's also times where, like, this is how I've chosen to spend my time. You know, this is, this is what I've chosen for my life is like watching this excruciating basketball game. Yeah, it's, it's, it's going to be incredible. You know, it's going to be an electric atmosphere. I think one thing, too, and Aaron Gordon acted like he was okay, but.
- [34:15]
Zach Lowe
Like, oh my God, we forgot to mention this.
- [34:17]
Andrew Schlecht
The hamstring is, like, is definitely going to be something to watch for over the next couple of days when it comes down to, like, the news. And, you know, if they do an mri, I assume they'll do an MRI on his, on his hamstring. But, like, that's a huge swing factor because we talk about the Nuggets defense and what they've been able to accomplish without Aaron Gordon. Like, this whole thing could, you know, come apart because he has been so crucial to so many of the things that they can do defensively and then offensively, like, he's been, he's been the most clutch player in the playoffs so far. So I just think, like, that's, that's a huge one. And he said he's feeling okay, that he'll be ready for game seven. They'll do treatment over the next couple of days. But, you know, that's not an if it is a hamstring injury. That's not one that you can just, you know, hop in the game for because, like, you have to run. Like, that's part of basketball.
- [35:13]
Zach Lowe
Thank you for bringing that up. I am derelict as a sleep deprived podcast host for not bringing that up within three minutes because he's that big of a deal. And it's amazing that he has so many clutch shots in the playoffs, dunks and threes that I didn't even like. It took me a minute to, to mention the game. One game winning three with like three seconds left in the game. On the one hand, you could frame that injury if it's an injury that, you know, sustains at all. And knock on wood, hopefully it doesn't as, wow, so regrettable for the nuggets that up 12, 14, whatever, late in the game, Aaron Gordon is bringing the ball up under pressure and they just can't, like, they just sort of cease to function for 45 seconds and turn the ball over four times. And on one of those turnovers, he has to lunge. And here's what happens. On the other hand, you also just have to, I mean, you don't credit the Thunder for an injury, but you have to credit the Thunder for creating the circumstances around it, which is, A, we're not quitting. B, when we dial in, we can force a shit ton of turnovers and make you play under duress. They, it's. I thought they didn't pack it in. Like they could have easily packed it in. The margin was like 99.99. 9% insurmountable. And you know, they created kind of a shit happens moment. And to an awesome player who is Mr. Nugget, who I have waxed poetic about many times on this podcast before, is like, this is sports nirvana. Aaron Gordon in Denver. This is destiny. This is all the cheesy, hokey stuff you think about in sports. Like, this is what this player has fit on this team. This is what this player has meant to this team. And you just hope he can be. I want everyone 100%. That's all.
- [36:57]
Andrew Schlecht
Yeah. Yeah. It's not hard to put together an Aaron Gordon highlight reel from this playoff run. Like it's, it's, it's hard to edit it down.
- [37:05]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, the dunk in game four, which I'm still against the Clippers, I'm still like not 100% sure what even happened. Like, I need two minutes just on that. FanDuel is turning your bets into bigger wins with a parlay profit boost. That's right, build a same game parlay or parlay and you can boost your winnings by 30% with a profit boost. You pick the team's players, stats, all of it. FanDuel just adds a little fuel to the fire. Whether you're betting three pointers, home runs, goals or birdies golf. Okay, FanDuel's got markets across every sport and every game. And the best part, when you win, you'll get paid instantly. So go check it out. Fanduels where your parlay gets paid even bigger. Head to fanduel.comlow my last name the name of this podcast to get started, FanDuel, America's number one sportsbook must be 21 or over in President select states or 18 and over in President D.C. opt in required bonus issued is not withdrawable. Profit boost tokens restrictions apply including any token expiration and max wager amount c terms@sportsbook.fanduel.com gambling problem called 1-800-gambler or visit rg-help.com this episode is brought to you by HubSpot. Growing a business can feel impossible. But HubSpot's customer platform can help. It's powered by a suite of AI tools called Breez, so you can generate more leads, close more deals and scale your service fast. With breeze agents handling the busy work, customers are cutting sales cycles in half. That's a lot. And saving hours on work each week. Best of all, you can see the results in days, not months. Visit HubSpot.comai to learn more. Okay, enough big picture stuff. Small picture is there Anything strategically that has struck you from the last couple of games, any. Any part, and has you asking questions or looking for stuff in the biggest game of the year?
- [38:57]
Andrew Schlecht
Yeah, I mean, like, honestly, the biggest thing for OKC is just, can guys make threes? Because, like, they are the. The Nuggets are similar to the Thunder and that they are like, hey, we're going to make life as hard as possible for Shay and for J Dub. We're going to zone up, we're going to throw you multiple looks, and we're going to make your role players prove it. And, like, that's how the Thunder have won some of these games, is that you've had Aaron Wiggins games. You've had moments where Alex Caruso has been incredible, Case and Wallace, Lou Dort. But it's like those guys are going to have to make up the margins. And the Thunder did the same thing, and they've been doing the same thing basically this whole series to Nikola Jokic is like, we're going to throw guys at you. We're going to make sure that when you spin, somebody's there. And I think, like, to me, and this is why you're glad it's at home. If you're. The Thunder is like, is. Is Aaron Wiggins going to hit that wing three, you know, when it. When it swings over to him? Because there were multiple moments last night where the ball swings to Aaron Wiggins. He's.04, you know, like, that's an Aaron Wiggins shot. It's on the wing, it's in rhythm. He usually cashes that in. Like, can he cash those in like that? To me, that's what this is all about. Because they've done such a good job of taking away stuff from Shay, from Jalen, and now it's like, okay, how do we get other guys involved in a way where they can make shots? And I think they actually did that last night. I think the Thunder did a good enough job of executing, but it's just about shot making. And I think. I think that's the whole thing with. With J Dub. Like, he's another one where, like, he can wipe all of this away. Like, he can wipe away the 33% from the field in one game. And so to me, it's. I think the Nuggets will continue to take away driving lanes from them. Like, they'll throw two at guys, you know, right away in the zone, whenever SGA or Dub drive. It's like, can the next play be good enough? You know, and that's what it is for the Thunder and they've done, I think they've done a good enough job, I think Denver's done a good enough job honestly against OKC's defense. And it's really just all about these role players and like who shows up in these moments because that's what's kind of being created by both squads.
- [41:14]
Zach Lowe
Well, J Dub wiped away, you know, it doesn't even need to be a whole game. He wiped away a meh game five with one big kick three wide open to put them up 106103 and to me he semi wiped away a disastrously bad Game 4 when he was 2 of 13 on a back to back possession stretch that I think I mentioned last episode where against his own he misses a wing three with like three minutes left. And on the very next possession did he airball it? There's been some rough or like Chet had one last night that was like whoa, close the barn door. And on the very next possession he gets the ball in the exact same spot and is like I'm putting my head down, there's a diagonal gap here. I'm taking it and laid the ball in. And that showed a certain mental toughness and awareness to me and like yeah, you make that shot and you win the game. I don't really care that you went 2 of 13 because I know what I'm getting defensively from you and everyone on this team every minute. There is like zero letup. To me the thing that has been most interesting about games 5 and 6 is and is is that the Nuggets have digested the Thunders defense. There's not a lot of answers to it. It's just going to be an awesome defense. Every single game you're just trying to scrounge out like can we get to an average offensive rating? Because maybe our defense can hold them to worse than that. But they have figured out that Holmgren is going to be on Aaron Gordon sometimes Christian Brown and his one job is going to be be at the basket. If it's a Jokic post up. And by the way, Jokic is posting up a little bit less in this series than he has typically against the Thunder and it's because it's not working. Yeah, if it's a Jokic post up and Aaron Gordon's in the dunker spot, you're like a second guy guarding the rim guarding Jokic, forcing Jokic away from the basket. If it's a Murray Jokic pick and roll. I've talked a lot about this. Their Strategy is sell out to let Murray drive. We are not giving Jokic the pocket pass. We are staying attached to yic. We're giving Jamal Murray drives because you're driving in to Chet Holmgren and other help defenders and if you kick it out to these other guys to shoot threes, we're living with that. We are not living with Jokic getting a pocket pass. And what the Nuggets have started doing more is in games five and six is taking Holmgren's guy and bringing him up the floor into the action. So as an example, Aaron Gordon ran 15 pick and rolls combined the last two games. Previous four games according to second spectrum 15 total. He's setting stagger screens like Christian Brown. When they put homegrown on Christian Brown in Game 5 down the stretch they did the same. Jokic saw it right away and you could see him point. Switch up the whole offense, bring Christian Brown up into this play and get Holmgren up the floor. Run they ran at the beginning of last night, some split actions with Aaron Gordon and Jamal Murray to get the Thunder defense moving and pointedly to get Shed Holmgren up the floor and involved. And I don't really know, like sometimes there is no answer for that. Sometimes Chet Holmgren is still in the dunker spot where he wants to be. But more and more that's been a really smart. Aaron Gordon's even bringing the ball up a lot. He got injured doing that, but he's bringing the ball up a lot precisely for this reason, to keep Chet Holmgren high on the floor. And it's been an. That's been an interesting little tactical battleground to me because again, there aren't a lot of answers. This isn't always going to be an answer, but that's something I. That was a really smart adjustment by David Adelman and. And the coaching staff, I thought.
- [44:50]
Andrew Schlecht
Yeah, and. And the Thunder have tried to keep two bigs on the floor when Jokic is there too, which has been something that they, I think that they think of like that five out with Chad at the five as probably their fastball. It's the lineup that they ran the most in the previous season. I think that they wanted to run it probably a little bit more. They actually had it in there at the end of the game just to see if they could shake loose a little bit. But they've gone away from that and they will use Hartenstein, they'll use J. Will in that lineup as well, who's been pretty good. Like he's. He's had a surprising stretch down, you know, down the end of this season. It has been pretty good in the playoffs.
- [45:29]
Zach Lowe
I'm not going to say pretty good. I'm going to say for a guy who's kind of a bit player, he has been essential to the Thunder in this series. He's made enough shots, both twos and threes. He's held up defensively against Jokesh. I mean, he's beating the hell out of him, but he's, he's holding up defensively. So you just nailed the other subplot for me. They have essentially punted homegrown at the five when Jokic is on the floor. And Jokic is going to be on the floor for between 42 and 48 minutes of game seven. And I've been waiting to see if there's a moment other than last night. Desperation. We're going to put Isaiah Joe on the floor and go check at the 5 because we're way behind. Is there a moment where they decide to stress test that again against Jokic? And you know, they did it last night and immediately they just gave Chad Holmgren a pick and pop three and he missed. You know, I think Denver would be fine with that. I don't think they're worried about Chet Holmgren raining threes on them and what it, what it might, how it might bend their defense. But I've been waiting for that card to be played again and waiting to see how does Denver respond. Because one way they might respond is just not putting Jokic on Chet Holmgren at all. Put him on Caruso, put him on Door, put him on Wallace. They have other ways to do that. Rotating around. Like they'll put him on Holmgren and have him drop and someone else will rotate whatever. I, I don't. But I think they correctly have decided like that may not be viable against not just Jokic, but Denver's just much bigger than they are. And the risk on the glass is, is enormous. But I do think I've been waiting. I've been waiting for like five, like a three minute stretch in the second quarter. Let's try it out and see what happens. I don't. But maybe last night I, it was like you said, a desperation move. I don't, I don't. I have no clue if we're going to see it again. I've just been in my head waiting.
- [47:19]
Andrew Schlecht
Yeah, it's. It's a lineup that just requires shot making. You know, it helps spread the floor, but the floor is not spread unless those guys are making shots. I think if you're Denver. You live with Chet taking threes at this point. I mean the three worst three point shooters this series have been Shea at 26%, Chad at 25% and Dub at 21%. And so I think if those guys are shooting their normal percentages, I think that you feel really comfortable running that. But when they're shooting basically all shooting sub 26% from 3, I think it makes those lineups really difficult to run because I just don't know that you trust the three point shooters in that lineup to create. And so I think that's part partly why it's like, okay, we're going to lean on our defense. We know that defensively that we can hang with these guys and we just if we can get enough shots to fall from everybody else, then I think we're in good shape. And again, if those guys were hitting at a high level from deep one, I think the series is probably already over. But I think that you can feel more comfortable running five out like that.
- [48:28]
Zach Lowe
A couple of I don't know if we're going to see it again. I'm rooting for it because I just like tactical variety and likely I throw this at you out of nowhere. See how you respond. A couple other notes from the series I mentioned Jokic post ups. He's averaging 12.5 post ups, post touches per hundred possessions. Against the Thunder in the regular season that was closer to 16. So. But it's still a lot.
- [48:50]
Andrew Schlecht
Yeah.
- [48:51]
Zach Lowe
The Numbers According to Second Spectrum, 0.87 points per possession when Jokic shoots or one pass away shoots 0.825 points per possession overall, like that's unthinkable. Defense, that's unthinkable.
- [49:06]
Andrew Schlecht
Yeah, you got to be feeling great about that.
- [49:09]
Zach Lowe
Those numbers are absolutely unthinkable and yet I still wonder when all else fails can they go there more and if Hartenstein's on him space the floor in a way that Chet is somewhere that's not threatening. Or if Chet is stuck on Michael Porter Jr. Because that's the matchup on the other end, go right to it because Chet's not going to be in position to help. But they have done I the word is unthinkable. Like to hold Jokic to that through six games is crazy.
- [49:39]
Andrew Schlecht
Well and like they have so many other health defenders too like it like chat's the major one. But we've seen Shay be a great help defender at times. You know, we've seen Jada is obviously a great defender in his own right, but is also a Great help. Defender Alex Caruso is like the ultimate. And then you have his understudy and Kayson Wallace, who's incredible. You know, like, they just have so many guys that you trust and can throw at him that. Yeah, I think that the Thunder would welcome that. I would. I think that that's. That's the kind of offense that the Thunder would welcome because they've done such a good job.
- [50:10]
Zach Lowe
Caruso, you know, I mentioned that stretch in the second quarter last night where it felt like the Thunder were seizing the series with their defense. Like Denver just couldn't do anything. And a lot of the possessions were perfectly textbook execution of the scheme. I'm talking about on Murray. Jokic pick and rolls where they just hug Jokic and let Murray go and help behind it and just smother him at the basket. One of the possessions, Caruso was on Murray, and they did not even need to deploy that strategy because Caruso was. I mean, you could go back and watch it literally unscreenable. They ran one screen and then flipped it and ran it the other way. And like. Like a magic trick. Jokic is this gigantic body. The space is like this tight, and Caruso just gets through it unscathed twice in a row. And I don't even know how he did it. And Jamal Murray gets the other end of the screen is like, what the hell? This dude is still on me. Okay, couple other numbers and I'll let you go. Denver zone defense has changed the entire series. They've gone all in on it. It has been, by the numbers, significantly better than their man to man defense according to the tracking data. I won't bother getting into numbers, but it's been better. It's been very good. And I'll tell you, the Wolves are watching this for sure, obviously, because I went back and looked at some Wolves Thunder stuff. The Wolves are not a big zone team at all unless they're playing the Thunder. Now, the Wolves Thunder matchups were all screwed up by injuries this year. Three of them occurred in like a eight day span where like tons of guys were injured. But almost like half Minnesota zone possessions this season came in four games against the Thunder. And you can bet they're watching this. And the second thing. And that again, that's like either the threes go in and, you know, they've had some really creative plays where they screen the middle of the zone and Hartenstein's gotten a lot of dunks. When help comes, I don't know what other zone. I'm not a, like a coach. I'M not a zone tactic expert. I'm not sure what magic tricks that Mark Dagnold and his staff can pull. It's just. It's been just very interesting to see Denver become the Heat. Like, we're just his own team now. It's what we do. And the last thing. And I wonder what you watch for during these stints of the game and if there will be any. In game seven. The Nuggets are only, and I say only not facetiously at all, -15 in 47 minutes with Jokic on the bench. And there have been a few games. I think they were plus one with Jokic, the Thunder were plus one with Yokich on the bench last night, or the Nuggets were plus one. Either somebody was plus one where those minutes have been a wash, or Denver's even, like, won them by a point or two. Yeah, you just gotta do better than that. And like I said in game, in game seven, there might be 90 seconds. That might be all it is, so it might be irrelevant. But I wonder what you've seen during those minutes, because I think the Thunder have to be kicking themselves for that, too.
- [53:03]
Andrew Schlecht
Yeah, because I think those are the. The minutes that you. That you do go small, like that. That. That tactic that we talked about earlier where you do play chad at the 5, because that's really your only opportunity where you think you can feel really comfortable.
- [53:15]
Zach Lowe
They played all five Wings last night for a couple minutes without Jokic, Right?
- [53:20]
Andrew Schlecht
Yeah. And I think that's. You have to just be really fast, and you have to hope the shots go in. And, like, defensively, they are good enough to handle, like Jamal Murray, you know, out there on his own. Like, they. They are good enough to handle those minutes. Like, they. They absolutely have to win those minutes. Because I don't think that the Nuggets have a lot of answers. They don't have a lot of answers when Jokic is in. They certainly don't have any answers whenever he's not in there. And so, yeah, the Thunder have to take advantage of those moments. That's where they need to play in transition a lot more. It's like, let this game get fast, you know, I think that those. Those are the moments probably, too, where the. The Nuggets can let the game speed up. And so I think the Thunder have to take advantage of the times where it does.
- [54:03]
Zach Lowe
This is it. This is it, man. This is why we do sports. Any parting thoughts about this game coming up? I will cede the floor to you, Andrew Schlecht. Covers the Thunder better than anyone in the world. He's all over this team. His podcast is really fun. He contributes across the Athletic and with that I will cede the floor to you. Anything else we haven't talked about or anything about this game that you would like to end with?
- [54:31]
Andrew Schlecht
Yeah, no. I mean I'm just could not be more excited to be able to go to this game. This is, this is where like a legend will be made from this game. And I kind of agree that this is the title in some ways. Like this will at least be the team that I think is probably favored to get out of the West. And so there's just a huge opportunity for either Jokic to go for another title or for the Thunder to finally break through and to become the team that they have been scratching and clawing for ever since they got to okc. So I think, yeah, this is where a legend is made.
- [55:07]
Zach Lowe
I'm going to go run through a wall now based on the speech you just gave about legends will be born. I'm just going to run around my neighborhood screaming. Andrew, thanks for your time. I will talk to you soon. Enjoy Game 7 this episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. From streaming to shopping, prime helps you get more out of your passions. So whether you're a fan of true crime or prefer a nail biting novel from time to time, with services like Prime Video, Amazon Music and fast free delivery, prime makes it easy to get more out of whatever you you're into or getting into. Visit Amazon.comprime to learn more now at Chipotle Our all new Chipotle Honey Chicken brings Chipotle heat with a touch of sweet seared smoked peppers and savory Mexican spices blended with a hint of pure honey for a perfectly balanced sauce. All combined with fresh tender chicken hot off the grill, served up in your favorite burrito or bowl, New Chipotle Honey Chicken takes heat and sweet to a whole new level. But it's only at Chipotle for a limited time. Order now in the app for pickup or delivery. Chipotle for real. All right. I haven't talked about Nick Celtics since Boston's awesome, inspirational, resolute home win in Game 5. I'm not going to talk about a bunch now because game six is tonight in I don't know, like 10 hours as I'm recording this. But I do want to say first of all, just an awesome game for the Celtics. Awesome game. One of the best games all around Jalen Brown has ever played. Career playoff high and assists just Calm, chill, make the simple play. Awesome Luke Cornett. I mean, not awesome Luke Cornett game. The Luke Cornett game. The all time Luke Cornett game. Luke Cornett's good. I don't know what to tell people. He's been good for a few years now. He's just good. And he's had an interesting transformation from in Chicago. They tried to make him like a pick and pop big, and the Celtics have gone all the way the other way and made him a dunker, rim protector, shot blocker extraordinaire. What a game for Luke Cornet. Home crowd looked awesome. And Derrick White, just like, you need me to score 30, I'll score 30. What a player Derrick White is. And we've already talked about the implications of the Tatum injury. Not this year, not just next year, but big picture for the Celtics and the potential of major roster changes next year and going forward to kind of reset. The financial books reset around Jason Tatum. And who's, who's left when Jason Tatum comes back is sort of a larger question. I've already said, like Derek White, I mentioned this with Bill on Tuesday. You know, he's the one with all the trade value. He's the one that could fetch you the mother load. Not a mother load like superstar motherload, but, you know, picks, picks, picks, picks. Young player. Drew's got three years left and he's aging. KP's on an expiring deal and he, quote, can't really breathe, according to Joe Missoula. Seems like a problem. You need to breathe to live, let alone play basketball. And Jalen Brown, you know, you can talk about that if you want, but he, he's on that gigantic contract. And, you know, like, I've seen, I've seen theoretical pieces like, would the Mavericks trade the number one pick in the draft for Jalen Brown? And I'm like, am I, am I crazy or would that be like. I mean, I've already said, I think trading the number one pick in a, in a Giannis centric deal would be a bad idea for the Mavericks, for Jalen Brown. Like, am I, am I missing something? Like, why would, why would they do that? But Jalen Brown's very, very good and would have trade value elsewhere or otherwise. Derrick White's just an awesome player. Like the idea of trading Derrick White, I mean, there were people within the spurs who were like, this guy's a really good winning player. Why are we trading a really good winning player? And he's turned into even more of a really good winning player with the Celtics and just that. That depressed me. Anyway, the Knicks don't mess around with this. Knicks don't mess around. Don't go to Boston for Game 7 because they've already proven to you. Yeah, that formula, that motivation, that sort of adrenaline, whatever, it's hard to replicate that game after game. The Knicks, I think, have now seen Boston without Tatum and will make some changes about their defensive scheme in game six. But don't mess around. Don't go home and play this team. This team's got talent still, even with Porzingis doing nothing, even with Tatum out, they can win one game at home on talent and three point shooting volume on math. The math is mostly tilted toward the Knicks in this series. Don't mess with the math. Win this game at home. This is the biggest Knicks game in 25 years because every game now is the biggest Knicks game in 25 years. When the Knicks traded for Mikhail Bridges, all the picks, five first round picks, blah, blah, blah, they opened it was a statement. We're opening a window now. We're opening a window now. We don't know how long it will be, but Jalen Brunson taking a discount, it's going to help it, you know, prop open maybe a little longer. And then the cat trade comes after. The window was intended to start now and persist as long as it was financially viable in this starting five was financially viable. Boy, oh boy, is the window open now. The window has been. There is not even a window. There's just like the window has been blown out in a storm of injuries and chaos in the Eastern Conference. You need a window installer to come put it back. The window is. Could not be more wide open. The Celtics are, are, are devastated by injury. Next year is up in the air for them. The Cavs, they got banged up. Yeah, they had all their players at the end, though, and they pooped the bed again in the playoffs. The window is open now to make the finals for the first time since 1999 to face the Pacers and by the way, the East. I talked about this on Tuesday with Bill. After the lottery, the conference imbalance, the number one and two picks going to the West. Giannis potentially being on the move. There's some chance he goes to the west if he is indeed on the move. The Celtics on and on and on. Like, the window's open. It's wide open. But like, you zoom out for a second if like, the Bulls must be throwing like a party. Like, hey, all we do is like kind of stand pat, plus or minus. Zach Levine, could we be like, the fourth seed next year? Are we staying at a Pacer's dynasty? Is that really where we are? Imagine being the Hawks just fired your gm, Lander Fields. I haven't even talked about that. I thought Landry feels a pretty good job digging out of one Dejounte Murray mess and creating another Dejante Murray mess for the Pelicans and getting Dyson Daniels and Risa Shay and Jalen Johnson. Well, that wasn't his draft pick, but still. And now there's like, well, Trey Young, what's his future? And now you're the Hawks. Like, hey, could we be the fourth seed next year? We'd be hosting a first round playoff series. This conference is so goddamn bad. Anyway, the window's wide open for the Knicks. Don't mess around. You should win this game. I think they will win this game. And I think a couple of things that I'm watching for are they seemed confused in their pick and roll coverage in Game 5. Carl Anthony Towns in particular. Now, Carl Anthony Towns, always a little confused and addled at pick and roll coverage, but I think they were caught in between this. We're got to switch everything to keep the Celtics in front of us and. And bait them into playing isoball and not give them threes. And hey, wait a second. Without Tatum, can we play maybe a more traditional pick and roll coverage and drop back a little bit and really test their driving and their playmaking and see if they can actually generate good shots without Jason Tatum against a traditional defense? And you could see them messing up. Like, are we switching? Are we not to. Oh, someone got open for a three. And I would not be surprised if we saw. They're still going to switch because it's worked. If we saw a little bit more traditional pick and roll coverage kind of testing out. Okay. Jalen Brown, come into a drop, pick and roll scheme. See if you can spray it out. See if you can make enough plays to win the game. Drew Holiday, you know, see if you can do it. Derek White, you're awesome. We're going to test you out a little bit, particularly with Mitchell Robinson at center and in the pick and roll. What a series for Mitchell Robinson. This is the fully actualized Mitchell Robinson. This is. This is maybe as good as it's going to get. Maybe he can play more minutes in the future. I remember five years ago, four years ago, writing my annual Most Intriguing players piece for ESPN.com and writing about Mitchell Robinson in the piece. I don't remember what season it was, and he Was so in his infancy as an NBA player that I remember talking to him about using his arms on defense, using the giant wingspan and how there'd be too many possessions where he'd be defending the pick and roll with his arms at his sides and how the lowest hanging fruit. Now it's harder to maintain a pose like that than you think. It takes energy. But how the low hanging fruit for him was just like use your arms man, get out. And how coaches had talked with him about it and he knew that it was a problem. Now he's like impenetrable on the pick and roll. He can come up to the level of the screen, he can drop back, the arms are out. He's just been awesome defensively. And then you throw in the offensive rebounding and six or six from the free throw line, you do it, you go Mitch. Nobody wants to see hack at anybody. That's one thing I'm watching for. I'm watching for Boston smaller lineups that worked more Peyton Pritchard. I'm watching for King Cat. Can Cat do anything with Drew Holiday? That's the matchup now for him. He had a couple of face up drives late in the game. Can he get going a little bit that way? I'm watching for Anunoby. Anunoby has been kind of invisible offensively in I don't know, three of the five games in this series. And he's got Derrick White on him now because of the way the matchups has changed. Jalen Brown is guarding Jalen Brunson on and on and on and without Tatum and I'm Derek White's an elite defender and I don't want to just give the ball to OG and Naomi, but couple post ups here and there run him off some pin downs, just get him a little bit more involved the way they've gotten Mikhail Bridges more involved. Some of the things that I'm looking at in this game and you know there's not much more to it than that. It's a big, big moment for the Knicks in this core. This is a game, you don't have to win it because if they lose tonight I could absolutely see them winning game seven. And Boston, they're just more talented like home road, whatever. They're more talented but boy would it be a nice statement of, of you know, we are here, we know the windows open. We're not even going to mess around with game seven. I can't wait for this game tonight and all my Knicks fans friends are on pins and needles. Get back to the conference finals for the first time in forever. But the Celtics, give them credit. They're going to make the Knicks earn it. The Knicks are going to have to earn it tonight. Okay, let's bring in Logan Murdoch and talk about the Golden State Warriors. All right. One of the cool things about joining Ringer Spotify is that I have full access to all these awesome people that I can collaborate with now. And Logan Murdoch, maestro of the real ones with Raja Bell and some dude named Howard. I don't know. What about the third guy? We're gonna talk about the warriors, but it's a thrill to work with you, man. How you doing?
- [66:44]
Logan Murdoch
I'm doing good, man. It's a thrill to work with you as well. I think we've met like, once. I've always been a fan of your work and like, it was just when I got the DM yesterday. It was such an honor to, to be on your show, bro. So I've been listening to you for a long time, since I was a young whippersnapper.
- [66:56]
Zach Lowe
So, you know, young whipper snapper. I like it. Well, we just had about five minutes of baseball talk off air before this, so I'm fired because I know you're, you're an A's fan and some of my fondest memories are at A's games and I am a newly unre, unlapsed Mets fan. So anyway, enough baseball. The Minnesota Timberwolves dismantled the warriors in five games. Minnesota fans, we will talk about you. You are going on to live in the playoffs. You have a whole other round. Congratulations. You earned it. You dismantled the Warriors. You did what you're supposed to do. You're an awesome team. I talked about you a little bit in the Thunder segment. We're going to get to you. The warriors are the warriors, though, and what happens to them is very important because A, they're very popular and B, they have an all time legendary player in. Steph Curry, who missed the last 4 1/2, 4 1/4 games of this series and was a, a fireball during his brief, I think 13 minutes in the series. And so naturally, Logan, we must wonder what comes next for the warriors and is this just it? And if this is it, not that it's over, but if this is essentially the team, Steph, Draymond, Curry, whatever supporting pieces remain until we go out and retire, is that good enough? And I don't mean is it good enough to win the title? Because I don't think it is and I don't think it was this year, but is it good enough to satisfy the fans and. And to make everybody feel as if they've at least given Curry the chance to compete at a high level during the twilight of his career?
- [68:33]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, it depends on what they do with the supporting cast and what they do with Kaminga. Now, all fines at this point point to the fact that Kaminga is probably going to be gone in a signing trade. That's something I've been hearing. It's something they've. The Athletic has reported that has come to an impasse. And so whatever they get for Kaminga and whatever they do in the off season, maybe they flip a lot of those young guys that were ineffective throughout the playoffs into another piece coming off the bench, maybe a veteran piece, and they flip that up, but it really depends on that. I know Giannis was the big prize and has felt like the big prize over the last few years and something that the warriors brass is openly wanted, a chance and a crack at it at him. But I just, you know, that's probably not realistic at this point. They don't even have a package that even competes with the Houstons and the Oklahoma Cities and the San Antonios of the world. So by, you know, just. Just sheer unluckiness, they. They have to probably build around the margins, right, and build a suitable bench for next season. Because you're going to have Curry next year. He's 37 right now. He's gonna turn 38 next March. You have Jimmy, who was a little older than the two. If you have Draymond, who's 35 right now and looks every bit of 35. So regardless, it's going to be tough. I remember when I. When the trade went down, I said that if they get to the second round, that's a win for this season. Considering where they were in January and they got to that point, they could have sniffed around and maybe get to the Western Conference finals, would have made that a. That would have been a great season for the warriors, but, you know, just bad luck going into the postseason. But if they get some really good players around the margins, they could, you know, be sniff around 50 wins and if health permits, maybe get to the same conclusion that they got this season, which isn't a bad thing. But, like, when you look at the postseason record of the warriors over the last decade, losing in the second round just doesn't make sense. It just. It doesn't. It doesn't compute because I think other than the playing games, they've only. They've only lost early in the second round going into the series, I think one time, and I was against the Lakers in 2023. And, you know, it's just really foreign to see them lose this much. But if you were to tell any normal, rational NBA fan that, hey, you're gonna go to the second round with this roster, it's pretty good, so we'll see what happens. But they need to build around the margins because that's really all they at this point, based on the assets that they have and just the landscape right now in the trade market.
- [71:17]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, I. When they lost in the play in last season, I wrote a big piece on sort of, where do they go? Where have they been? Free spn. And I ended it. The general thesis of it was, if there's a fairy tale ending to be had for Steph, we probably already saw it in 2022. And then I went on to say something to the point of, you know, there's nothing wrong with being a good team in the Western Conference. There's actually a, A, a sort of honor in scratching and clawing and winning 48 to 52 games in an absolutely loaded conference, which just somehow keeps getting even more loaded and being a team that can plausibly make the second round and being a team that if luck actually goes your way, you could make the conference finals. And once you're there, it's like, you know, who, whatever, but like a championship, extraordinarily unlikely, but there's an honor in being that competitive. And I think almost more interesting than the where do they go from here? Conversation, because I think we know where they go from here. They have Kaminga as a sign and trade possibility. And I agree with you. I think they. I think they have some eyes on, on some pieces that they think fit. I don't know who they are, and it's not Giannis. Like, they have hot take. They'd love to get Giannis like, they're. Kudos to the front office for identifying Giannis as a diamond in the rough. If they don't get Giannis, I think they've got some names that they'd look at and they have, you know, Pajemski. Solid. Moody is. Is a problem right now. They need to figure out what Moody is, if anything, and Kaminga is either going to be on the team or going to get them something in return. And they have. They owe their pick to Miami this year. They owe a top 20 protected pick to Washington in 2030. Other than that, they control all their picks and swaps. So after this draft is over they have some ammo to get stuff once that pick is sent to the Heat. So I think we kind of know where they're going to go. I don't know if there's a big plot twist here. The more interesting question is, you know, they landed on Butler as the guy, right? That ended up being the move and it didn't cost them all that much, which I think is. Is a win too. And I, and, and I put this to you like, is there a road not taken? Is there a missed opportunity that's any over the last three to four years, post Durant, post rebuild, post title? Is there a player, is there a trade? Is there a conversation that is a road not taken, missed opportunity that would have left them in a better spot than they are in right now.
- [74:00]
Logan Murdoch
I don't. I don't know if there may be necessarily a better spot, but maybe a more interesting spot. I know it. There was a deal in place to send Draymond to Memphis and then the return on. That would have been interesting. You know, it's so interesting that Stephen Adams was the catalyst to almost beating him in the first round because in that trade, like Stephen Adams would have came back to Golden State and along with Dylan Brooks, I heard as well Tyus Jones and a couple other people. But the reason why that deal fell through is because Tyus Jones went to. Got rerouted to Washington and it no longer made the deal work because that's something they want. They really wanted a backup point guard. And so that would have been interesting, right? You would have kept Jordan Pool. You would have. You would have had. It would have. You would have had Dylan Brooks, which would have. Which would have been. Had its own bit of entertainment. So they could have went that route, right? Or they could have traded Kaminga two or three years earlier because it wasn't like they didn't identify these. Their reservations from Kaminga this year in the last two weeks, right? Like they, they, the front office and particularly the coaching staff were at odds with how they felt about Kamingo right. When they drafted him. Him, right? And the coaching, a lot of people on the staff didn't really want him. And, and that was a Laker pool. So like if you. Maybe you trade Cabinga or. I forget what the package was, but there was a deal in place to send Jordan Pool to Phoenix for Chris Paul. So like, that's just a different domino effect. But I think if you think about what they could have gotten potentially early on for Draymond after the year after that punch, what that could have done with that Memphis package. That's something that's intriguing. I don't know if they would have been better or worse. Right. But I think that that would have been intriguing and maybe they would have assets to go and get somebody else. Another thing, though, that, like, that's interesting about the warriors is that they. They tend to sit on their hands a lot more than teams that are of their level in terms of contention or wanting to contend. Right. Like they are very, very patient. Whereas this is a. Feels like this is a. A league now where you kind of have to make a decision, especially with the apron and the second apron. You have to just go with your gut in a lot of ways, and it requires you to reinvent yourself on a year by year basis. Right. We talk about the Cleveland Cavaliers this year and how good they were during the season, and now we're talking about maybe we have to, you know, tweak around the. The margins. And same with the Boston, even before the Tatum injury. This is a league where after the last cba, where there's going to be a lot more movement. And I think that the warriors in this case have kind of bucked that trend and tried to have as much continuity as possible. And I think it's bitten them in the butt a little bit in terms of flexibility, because I know the Draymond or what if they don't even sign Draymond to that, you know, that. That extension, which is kind of been a debilitating as well. But I do think that going back to your question, you know, maybe if they make that deal with Memphis or maybe Durant says this year, you know what, I want to come back. That could have been interesting as well, because. But the warriors are in a weird space right now because there's a lot of what ifs that could have happened, and you don't really want to have that in the twilight of a guide like Steph's career. So we'll see what happens. But there's a lot of what ifs and what could have happened as opposed to what should have happened.
- [77:30]
Zach Lowe
I. I forgot about the Memphis one with Draymond, and I don't even know that I was. Was aware that that package was available to them. I mean, that's interesting. I don't know if it really changes their life.
- [77:42]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah.
- [77:44]
Zach Lowe
If you go back, I mean, obviously the number one what if is Wiseman, and.
- [77:49]
Logan Murdoch
Absolutely. Oh, I wanted to add one other one real quick. Zach trading Jordan pool for essentially nothing like you got. You traded him for Chris Paul and I know it was a salary dump at the point in time, but you. That was just a missed opportunity I believe right there. Right. And I don't know what the marketplace was, but I think that's another one that, that maybe was a miss. Like they couldn't, they couldn't get anything. They got an aging point guard who they also tried to trade and got nothing for. So I think that was also a big miss as well.
- [78:19]
Zach Lowe
Yeah. Pool has had to put it politely, a very up and down career with the Washington Wizards back up this year. But did they needed him to win the title in 2022.
- [78:30]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah.
- [78:31]
Zach Lowe
In fact he was really the only two timelines guy who contributed much of anything to the 2022 title run. Which brings me back to Wiseman. And look, it's not just that they missed on Wiseman and who they could have gotten for Wiseman, which is, you know, maybe Lamelo, maybe Tyrese Halliburton. Like if you look back at that draft, it's kind of a disaster between LaMelo at 3 and Halberton at 12. It's not a total disaster. Like Abdia is in there. Toppen's all right, Aangu is all right. Like Aang was actually pretty good. But anyway, they also tried to. They sniffed around trading that pick for a veteran and couldn't really find anything that they liked. They sniffed around trading down and couldn't really find anything that they liked. But the bottom line is the two timelines thing, it's not really. First of all it was an accident. Like it wasn't like a way they plotted it. Everybody got hurt and suddenly they lucked into the number two pick. It was a complete accident and the, the spoils of it. This is generally what hap. This is why these things don't happen. Like the most likely outcome all along was that the old guys get old, the young guys get better, but not enough better and not soon enough to help the old guys coalesce into this like team that's multi generational and awesome. And you know, I still think there's hope for Moody. This playoffs was a disaster. Kaminga, we don't need to overdo and Wiseman's long gone. I mean like that's the fruits of it. The other one was, you know, this Paul George marketing thing this summer. I don't really. I in my reporting at the time and I double checked yesterday. Like I don't think either of those things were really like even close to close. But do you. What did. What do you remember about It, I.
- [80:16]
Logan Murdoch
Mean, I remember just thinking like one, when I first heard about the, the Paul George thing, it was like, there's no way the Clippers are going to trade him in division. Like, that wasn't. That wasn't something that I thought was going to happen. And then, then once that we saw that there were actually talks and they were going to happen, then the Clippers were going to try to take everything that the warriors, every asset that the warriors had in their cupboards. And you know, and so there was. It was a non starter. It wasn't close in that regard in general. And to be honest, like, if you look at those trades, in hindsight, the warriors pretty much dodged a bullet. Like, I don't think that if, if what happens with Paul George this season happens when he's with Golden State, the season is a disaster.
- [80:56]
Zach Lowe
An executive used that exact phrase with me yesterday.
- [81:00]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, it would be a disaster if, if whatever happened in Philly, then they would be stuck with that contract and be really pissed off. You know, I mean, I think getting Butler, which, you know, in hindsight it worked out, but that was something that the warriors begrudgingly did. They were trying to get Durant. And if you talk to anybody within the, the front office or on the staff or anywhere near the warriors in like, say, December, January, that nobody wanted Jimmy Butler, that's just a fact. And it was one of those things where the Durant thing fell through and, you know, it was like, well, we have to get a subtype of star for Steph. We can't just let him be as depressed as he was in January all season. And so they, you know, they, they made the trade and made a good trade at that. But all intents and purposes, this was a. I would say this is a successful Warrior season because of what could have been, you know, and they really dodged a lot of bullets for what didn't happen. And I think that, that based on the circumstance, you know, they, they, they should be happy with what transpired this season because it could have went really, really bad. Could have went bad.
- [82:09]
Zach Lowe
And I don't think marketing was ever really in play for them based on what you thought.
- [82:14]
Logan Murdoch
That was a Danny. That was a Danny Ains like dangle. Right? Like you. It was. And again, like Danny Ains was going to try to take everything from the warriors anyway for that asset. So, like, that's something that, you know, the warriors have always been front up front with is maybe not the true timeline thing, but, like, hey, we want to keep our assets well into the future and we don't want to be a team that is really messed up. Once Steph leaves at the time Clay leaves and Draymond leaves, we want to be able to to get back into the fold relatively quickly. And that's also something Joe Legob wants like he doesn't want to lose at any point and he wants to keep contending. One of the things that you hear about with Kaminga and why he kept Kaminga for so long without trade is because Joe Lakob is scared to death about a post Steph era like and from a basketball standpoint, from a team like marketing standpoint, he really wants a guy into anoint a guy that he thinks is both exciting, that can play basketball and that can also galvanize a fan base once Steph leaves because he's terrified of the notion that he's going to have a front facing guy.
- [83:26]
Zach Lowe
Kaminga is at least one of those three things. I don't know if he's two of the three things and he's definitely not all three of those things. What was it? It was exciting. Check can play basketball? I think so. Eye of the beholder can galvanize a fan base. He certainly can galvanize pockets of a fan base in both emotional directions. I am contractually obligated to mention that the Moses Moody pick could have been Alper and Shen or Trey Murphy the third, but it was not.
- [83:55]
Logan Murdoch
You know there's a lot of people on staff that were that are like with the warriors that are like man we we should have got Trey Murphy. Like it was a lot of people that pushed forward Trey Murphy in that draft. So there's a reason I mentioned one out.
- [84:06]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, there's a reason I mentioned him. No mood. Yeah. Moody and Kaminga are the same draft. There's a reason I mentioned it because everyone focuses on Shengun but like Trey Murphy III is good and would have fit what they need. But look, every team can play these what ifs right? Every team has these draft stories that I this guy could have been here, that guy could have been here. We had Halliburton high on the board. Whatever. The bottom line is this, I think this is like a success for the warriors to get Jimmy Butler. And look if Joe Lake up was scared of a post step future, I don't know what he's feeling like after watching these last four games against Minnesota when Jimmy is old, coming off an injury and really only had one super game that he could summon within him and otherwise sort of faded into the background. If he was Scared before he's got to be like hiding under his blanket shivering.
- [84:52]
Logan Murdoch
And you're just talking about offensively. Like defensively Jimmy was not like he was great. I would say he was great in the back stretch of the regular season. Defensively they were number one in defensive rating. The warriors were. Once he got post trade. But like especially after that injury and even times before you would look at possessions where like he, his footwork wasn't great. He would let guys that would normally he would lock up blow past him. He looked, he looked old like during the last stretch. And he was also dealing with some illness and things like that. That's right.
- [85:22]
Zach Lowe
He got sick before game, Game four.
- [85:25]
Logan Murdoch
Exactly. So he, he was dealing with some issues there. But it's. I wrote about this on the ringer.com like it's a great piece.
- [85:32]
Zach Lowe
I'm going to mention it soon. Don't worry.
- [85:34]
Logan Murdoch
Appreciate it. But I mentioned that like this is just, this is a foreshadowing what is about to be right. And this is. And one of the issues that the warriors face right now is when they have Steph off the floor. This is something that they faced of issue that they faced a long time throughout their run is when Steph is on the floor, are off the floor, they struggle to stay afloat. And a lot of that is because, duh, Steph Curry is the top 10 player, one of the greatest players of all time. But the offense, whether he's on the floor or not, is catered to him. And there's just not a guy that can run that offense just as effectively as he does. So what you have to do is you need to get players like a Jimmy Butler, like a Kevin Durant, like a Chris Paul who can play their own set of style of offense within this set. Whatever you want to chaos you want to call it. And it's hard to find those guys. It's really hard to find those guys, especially in the modern NBA that is, that is actually, you know, built in the light of Steph Curry. The constant movement, constant shooting, constant three pointers and those guys just are not existent anymore. But it's really hard to find that. And I think that, that, that's something that, you know, the, the warriors are going to try to figure out is somebody who can. Another guy that can, that can hold the flow. Another guy that I think you should look at for the warriors going forward is Derek White, a guy like that. And I think that's something that the, the warriors are looking at right now because Boston's expected in league circles to have some sort of fire sale. Right. Like if. Or some sort of. We'll see maybe reset. We'll see what happens. I mean a lot of that is predicated on what happens tonight against New York. But and that's somebody that you should look at as well. Just somebody that can play defense and also like kind of just settle everyone down. Especially when you have a young group like that, you need to settle them down in a non Steph minute. So that's something they need to figure out.
- [87:22]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, I, I talked about that in the previous segment about tonight's game and, and how depressing trading Derrick White would be for Boston and just the sort of dilemma they face in terms of how much of a reset do we really want to have and who do we want to be back here? Who when Tatum comes back who has trade value in the interim and and where Derek White fits in that conversation. But my point is this. I think trading essentially Wiggins and a first round pick for Jimmy Butler and building a team that went whatever their record was with Butler and Curry was very good.
- [87:55]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, very, very down a stretch over.
- [87:57]
Zach Lowe
Over a non trivial period of time is an unmitigated success because they did not go. Their fear with marketing is we go all in for a team that's just pretty good and we're left with not enough stuff and not good enough of a team. They went half in for a team that is pretty good to very good. That's fine. Like that's a success. Butler fits how they want to play. They essentially given his player option that he had, they essentially added one year of big Jimmy Butler money to what was there anyway. I think that's perfectly fine. I don't think any of these missed opportunities are A some of them were just not really available and B I don't think they put them in a position that's any better than this. And the only thing I, I don't remember all my reporting at the time, the only one that I look back at as I wonder how serious they were and how interesting it got was I know they talked to the Raptors a little bit about an obi. I don't know if Siakam ever came up those two guys and, and now they went for decent prices. When you look at what the Knicks gave up and quickly and Barrett, you can, you know value quickly how you want. And the, the Pacers gave up Bruce Brown and three first round picks, none of which project to be very good. Like the warriors could have gotten into those conversations one or both of them. Probably just one. That those are. What are guys that are interesting to me. But again, like, I don't know how realistic they were. And I think where they've ended up with Jimmy Butler is like, totally fine. And it's okay to be a good team in Steph's Twilight. And that's probably just what they're gonna be.
- [89:37]
Logan Murdoch
Well, you know, like with OG that's interesting because they need guys like that on the peripheral in the postseason. And they just don't have those types of guys. The warriors on this. On. And I'm not talking about star players like Jimmy.
- [89:49]
Zach Lowe
They're tiny. They're tiny across the board.
- [89:52]
Logan Murdoch
So small. And that's another thing that I was gonna say, man. Like for. And I know Wiseman didn't work out, but they have done a terrible job, you know, building their front court. And that is not good when you consider the fact that they're playing against the Minnesota Timberwolves of the world, the Denver Nuggets of the world. That about to be San Antonio spurs of the world. Right. Whoever. Especially if they get. If they get Giannis to pair along with Wimby, you could just forget about it. Right? But that's something that they. They have just been so wing heavy. And God bless him, he's really good and he's been really successful for them. But, like, their best big is Kavon Looney, who played point. It was. Who played point guard in high school. Right. Like, that's the type of. And who was a small forward when he got drafted. Right. Then you have. So they don't really have guys that can really bang down on the post. Draymond was playing the five for like four months straight. Right. And that's. That's not a 2015 Draymond. That's a 2025 Draymond who's long in the tooth. They got some real stuff they need to figure out. But back to my point, they also for the. To if they had OG on their roster, just another guy that can just bang and get like. That can play defense, hit threes. It could just be a dude in the playoffs. And they didn't have many dudes in this year's playoffs outside of the starters.
- [91:13]
Zach Lowe
Well, and Looney is a good name to bring up because everyone is focused on Kaminga's free agency. And I assume the warriors will tender the qualifying offer and restrict him, obviously.
- [91:24]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah.
- [91:24]
Zach Lowe
Looney's a free agent. I believe Gary Payton the second is a free agent. Like, they have big decisions on these guys. And these are like either or decisions. It's like either this or a salary slot for another player either. Like it's not easy to bring all these guys back at let's just say between 7 to 10 million dollars. Because you do that, you're into the tax. You're maybe you're definitely into the tax. You're probably still ducking the second apron or the first apron. Although it could be close. And you don't you get your mid level. Like it all some of these guys, it's going to be tricky and but they are very, very, they're very small. And you mentioned. It's good that you mentioned never because you know, one of the things, forget the Minnesota series, that's over. Steph gets hurt. They have, they're drawing dead without Steph. And Minnesota did their job. Steph or no Steph. Like you gotta be watching this Nuggets Thunder series being like, I don't think we can play like quite at that level. Like that's kind of a reality check for where the warriors are. And, and getting to that level is going to be really, really hard. And like that's okay because you know, Denver could maybe not, I don't know, we'll see what happens with these teams. But like that's fine. It's just, that's a reality. I'm watching that series. Like, man, that isn't that the highlight is like physical, nasty stuff.
- [92:38]
Logan Murdoch
The funny part about that is like going into the postseason, like a lot of teams were trying to just pick off Denver because of the coaching situation in the front office situation and just how impressive they have been since that and through that, through it all has been really a sight to behold. But like Denver was the biggest wild card going into this postseason. So like there was a. So to see them go from where they were to right now has been a sight to behold. But another thing like the warriors, their postseason, if you do want to like just throw some holes in, you know, what they, what they have done, what veteran teams are supposed to do is get out of series early. And that's not something. And that's something that they just couldn't do. And it really like that Houston series. We, me and Raja talked about this on the pod going into that series. We were talking about how no matter what happens in that series, the warriors are going to get their ass kicked because that's what the Rockets are going to do. They're going to muddy the series. They're going to do a lot of those things. So you, it would Be imperative for you to get out of this series in five games. The warriors were on track to do that and then they played with their food and got it and barely wanted seven right after. Just a lot of emotions going on and then that. And that in turn, like that in turn hurts Steph because he has to, he has to play L size minute, then strains his hamstring and then they're done, right? If they were to like, they would, I feel like they would have had a much, much better chance against Minnesota if they just didn't play with their feud against Houston. And that's what you, you can't play with your food when you're in a, when you're a veteran team.
- [94:08]
Zach Lowe
Did they play with their food or is Houston just good? Like that's like the Western Conference. You hear the number of, of playoff series you get where you're like, oh, this is probably a walkover for us is like pretty much zero unless you're the number one seed and you get a Memphis this year. And that was a Walker. Like this is just life in the West.
- [94:26]
Logan Murdoch
But they just laid down knowing that in that, in those, when they were up 3:1, it just felt like they just laid down. The warriors did. They just didn't seem like they pulled up a fight until they absolutely had to. And the thing that they, and I agree with you, I really love the Houston Rockets. They were one of my favorite stories. But they didn't have a closer, right? So they could play as hard as they could as long as the warriors kept it close the war. In theory, the warriors could close out those games. And at that, as the series wore on, they just step, stopped, stepped away from that philosophy and they just, it felt like they laid down for those, especially in game six where they needed that game and they needed that rest and they just didn't play hard.
- [95:05]
Zach Lowe
Well, I mean, I thought that was going to be a long series beforehand. I picked warriors in seven and I, you know, but you're right. If you get out, I mean all these series, if you get out of them early. Although the rested teams have, have not played well in the game ones this round, it's, it's still just the wear and tear is so severe and the wear and tear of having Alper and Shangoon and Stephen Adams beat the hell out of you for seven games is very severe. And I'm in Thompson and I remember that on and on and on.
- [95:32]
Logan Murdoch
I remember that first game in Houston. I was there for the first two games. But the first game in general, the One that they won. You could just see Draymond after the game, just dog tired after guarding both of those guys. And that was just after one game. And to see just the physical toll that the Rockets put on the warriors was just. It was nuts. It was nuts.
- [95:55]
Zach Lowe
Any parting thoughts? Everyone should read your piece. This is the depressing thing about the media landscape is that that piece got a lot of attention, but it got a lot of attention because of one detail about Jonathan Kaminga looking up, looking off Steph in one game. That pissed the coach, by the way. You can see it every time Kaminga makes a mistake. First of all, they're very loud mistakes. And. And second of all, like, you could. The whole. You can see the coaches on the bench just.
- [96:24]
Logan Murdoch
They don't hide it.
- [96:26]
Zach Lowe
Like he with the hand down with no hand up with a hand. Oh, you can see it like, they don't hide it. I'm sure he notices it too.
- [96:35]
Logan Murdoch
I mean, it's that. It's the. It's the fact that he knows that a lot of those coaches that are like, oh, didn't want him want him in the Bay Area in the first place, and he knows that every mistake is magnified and he knows that, like, a lot of people on that staff just doesn't like him. Right. And for whatever reason, the fact that a lot of reasons that are out of his control, because I think some of them resent them for the fact that Joe Lacob keeps him, wants him on the team for so long and they can't get rid of him. But you see it. It was like one. It's loud mistakes, but it also speaks to a guy that really feels like, you know, he was ne, he never belonged here in the first place. And he also sees, you know, other rookies, not ne or not rookies, excuse me, other young guys, some guys that were drafted after him, some guys that were drafted with him that when they mess up, don't get though that type of reaction. Like, if Booty messes up, he doesn't get that type of reaction of reaction. Pod sometimes gets that reaction when he messes up. I. I would say that. But he still gets to play through his mistakes, whereas Kaminga feels like he doesn't get to play through his mistakes and it's magnified.
- [97:39]
Zach Lowe
In fairness, Moody did not really get to play through his mistakes in this playoffs and Pajemski did get chastised a couple of times. But, yeah, any. It's gonna be interesting for the Warriors. I. I just think, you know, barring some sort of lightning strike. This is just what it is and that's completely fine. Any parting thoughts? Logan Murdoch?
- [98:01]
Logan Murdoch
Well, one, the warriors will be fine. They won four chips in a dynasty, so they're good. But what I want to say is, man, I'm really happy to have you aboard. I know you get this all the time. I listen to the pod with with Beck and he always tries to just say, you're great, you're great. I just want to just, you know, extend those thoughts and also just say I'm happy to have you aboard, bro. It's good to have you on.
- [98:20]
Zach Lowe
It's been fun and this has been fun and you know, it's going to be an interesting off season. Logan Murdoch, real ones with Roger Bell and Howard Beck is a must listen. Read his column on the words on the ringer if you want to know more about the future of this team, the future of Jonathan Kaminga, the president of Jonathan Kaminga, everything. Jonathan Kaminga, Logan Murdoch. Thank you, sir.
- [98:41]
Logan Murdoch
Thanks so much. Talk to you soon.
- [98:44]
Zach Lowe
All right, that's it for today. We will see you guys back on Monday when oh my God, one of the Nuggets and Thunder is going to be out. The Wolves are going to be playing the other one. Knicks, Celtics. We'll see what the state of that is or has been. What a wild playoffs, wild lottery, wild, everything. All covered here on the Zach Low Show. So we'll be back Monday morning. Thank you to Jesse, Jonathan and Bobby on the producing staff for today's episode. We will see you after the weekend. Buckle up. Must be 21 and over and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over in President D.C. gambling problem called 1-800- gambler or visit FanDuel.com RG call 1-887-89-7777 or is it ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or is it mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland? Hope is here. Visit gambling helpline m or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 Sport in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8H O P E N Y or text Hopeny in New York.