← The Zach Lowe Show
The Zach Lowe Show
How Close Is Cade Cunningham to Being the MVP? Plus, Dwyane Wade Looks Back on His Career.
02:12:38
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- [00:01]
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This episode is brought to you by Lincoln. Whether you're watching highlights while parked or heading out for a Drive, the 2026 Lincoln Nautilus Hybrid keeps you connected with smart tech that helps tie your on screen and off screen worlds together. So help turn every drive into an opportunity for discovery with a 2026 Lincoln Nautilus Hybrid. Learn more at lincoln.com available connectivity, features and functionality vary by model. Package pricing, trials and term lengths vary by model. Video streaming and games are only available while parked. All right, coming up after this on the Zach Lowe show, we start with the great Tim Legler, the king of the iPad from ESPN. We're going to talk about the Pistons, the Spurs playoff experience and the spurs having won 10 straight games. How does all this factor into the MVP conversation? It's getting kind of murky. We got Jokic, SGA, Wemby, Luca all on the verge of being ineligible. Is it Cade Cunningham's year? Do the Pistons have enough offense? Tim just saw them against the Thunder last night. They have enough offense and shooting to really make the finals and give it a real run. We both kind of think that they do and we tell you why. And the spurs, can they win the whole damn thing right now where we pick them over the Thunder and trying to talk about Victor Wembanyama. And then Tim and I do James Harden to the Cavs. How's that looking so far? A little Cavs, Knicks reaction from earlier in the week. I thought there was a huge win for Cleveland. And then a segment unsponsored sponsors. If you're listening, we're ready for a sponsor. Zach and guest say one nice thing about a tanking team. I went Memphis Grizzlies this time. Memphis fans, someone's still watching your games. And Tim, you won't even believe what he picked when you hear it. And then a special guest, Dwyane Wade. The Dwyane Wade from the Miami Heat. All those years, Amazon prime, my teammate now. We tell a lot of good stories from the old days. Or he does, anyway, about LeBron, the Heatles, the whole thing. We talk about his career now, being on TV, the 06 finals. That team partied a lot apparently. All coming up after this on a nice edition of the Zach Lowe Show. This episode of the Zach Lowe show is brought to you by State Farm. Life's better when you've got the right help. Think of that perfect pass that sets everything up. Smooth, effortless, just what your team needed. That's the kind of assist State Farm offers, whether it's online or in person, State Farm's your teammate. When you you need help making your next play, State Farm with the assist. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state. Welcome to the Zach Lowe show with the great Tim Legler of espn who called Detroit, Oklahoma City last night in Detroit, the Pistons outdo a scrappy, undermanned Oklahoma City team. Will hung around and hung around and Big J will had the best game of his career scoring wise. But the Pistons win and the spurs win again in Toronto and that race for the number one seed in the west and the number one overall seed gets tighter. Mr. Legler, the best in the business. How are you?
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Zach? What's up, man? What's up? We ended up. Hey, listen, we had a pretty good game last night. Considering OKC had so many guys out, the top four scorers didn't play and yet here they are in the game late, three minutes to go. It's still winnable against the Detroit Pistons in Detroit, who had everybody. So you never know in this league. But the one thing that I can tell you about what you learned last night, it's amazing what you can accomplish when your culture is to every trip up the floor compete. And that's kind of what these, both of these teams last night, Troy to OKC are all about. And that's why OKC could hang in the game. And Dagnal got creative mixing in enough zone and they shot it pretty well from the three to give them a chance. But ultimately they didn't have enough playmakers. And Cade Cunningham was sensational down the stretch as he typically is.
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And Shea missed his 11th game of the season. He's gotta get to 65, which means he can miss 17 as the MVP race gets a little weirder. I don't want to even say spicier, just weirder. And we're going to get there. And it's hard to conceptualize who's going to be eligible, who might be eligible. Do we just need to wait to game 82 at this point? I'm going to Brooklyn tonight to watch Nets spurs in person because you got to see Wemby. And I'm like, wait, this is three and four nights for Wemby. Back to back on the road. Is he going to play? I'm like, he's probably going to play because he's got to remain eligible. He's missed 14 games, I think so OKC, Detroit, just real quick, we saw this with Denver where if you have enough guys out a, you're just hoping to survive and Oklahoma City has no problem doing that, baby. You really would like can we get one guy to kind of show us some more stuff that can carry over going forward? And it took a while. He didn't have the start to the season, the first two, three months of the season that I expected. But Kayson Wallace is kind of happening now and he was one of my before the season I did a podcast, I think it was with Kurt Goldsberry where we talked about most improved player predictions and we had to pick one kind of classic candidate, one star level candidate because there's always a star that butts into the conversation and one like under the radar sneaky candidate. My classic candidate was in your game last night, A Sar Thompson. It's not going to happen for him. He has not improved as much as I thought he would. My star candidate was Chad Holmgren because I thought he was going to spread his wings on offense more. It's kind of happened, but not nearly as much to get into the conversation. And my under the radar candidate was Kayson Wallace because I just thought there's more under the hood here than three and D guy who gets a pick six every now and then and gets a bunch of steals and there it didn't look like there was much more under the hood for a while and now he's had a few big scoring games. They're calling plays for him to like attack mismatches on the bounce and calling pick and rolls and he's shooting like mid Rangers. Like there's something here that makes both this team a little bit deeper when they get everybody else back in terms of just scoring options. But also when you talk about what kind of decisions the Thunder are going to have to make in terms of who gets extended what player options are picked up or not picked up. Like Dort and Hartenstein have these player or team options rather for next season and their tax situation. It just, it's why the McCain trade was so interesting to get another cost controlled guy. He played pretty well last night. But Wallace, like this is, this is the guy I kind of expected to see more. What. What did he look like in person to you last night?
- [06:25]
B
So to me he personifies what I've said for a long time about this league is there are role players all over this league that are capable of a lot more than you see on a given night because of where they're slotted on a particular team and who's ahead of them. You don't get to the league unless you've got more to your game than Whatever lane you're put in, once you get to a team and you establish yourself in the rotation, so many guys are capable of it. This is a great example of a guy jumping all over that. Because they've had so many guards out. I mean, Shea's missed time now. Jalen Williams has missed time all year. They've had guys out all season. Dort's missed time, Caruso's missed time. Like, especially in the backcourt, there's been this opportunity for guys to expand their game. Case and Wallace at the top of the list. Now here's why he's so impressive to me. We've always looked at his defense and the up the floor ball pressure, which is not a lot of guys do in the league. He's incredible at it just defensively. This is an elite defender.
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He's the pick six king. That's what I've called it. His nickname should be pick six.
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Yeah, particularly when Zach, you ask him to make it a foot race. Like last night, he had to guard Cade sometimes. Now Cade could go and turn and put you on his back and start backing down. And now, like somebody's gonna come help that. Because Case Wallace is a smaller guy. But if you're talking about just foot race, you're denying and forcing guys out in the perimeter, fighting over screens, picking up and turning guys two, three times up the floor. Case of Wallace, as good as it gets in this league. But to now be able to transform his game to the other end of the floor, where he has gone from a one to two dribble guy. And what I mean by that is he was pretty good at like every now and then get a straight line dribble drive on a catch and like attack a closeout. And two dribbles at the rim because he's got great quickness, or throw it ahead to him, transition two dribbles to the rim or run a ball screen. And occasionally, not very often, but if he did get a ball screen, it was one, two dribbles. If he didn't have something to pick it up and move it, he's gone from a two dribble guy to a four dribble guy. And you saw it last night and that's what's going on this month. He's got four 20 point games now, five 20 point games this month because he now has the ability and he's showing you the ability to have a counter when you cut him off. Like he can actually go to a crossover between the leg, like a spin move to go get more Offense for himself. That's not something really he was ever asked to do. When they're fully healthy, he's got a lane, he stays in the lane. And now it's like, okay, we're going to expand that a little bit because we have to. We've got guys out who's going to create offense for us. Not many guys can do it on the fly like as easily as he has done it this month. And it's incredible. And we were talking to Mark Dagnan about it before the game and he basically said what he's learned from this situation with Case of Oz. You never know as a head coach when a guy is going to pop, as he put it. You never know and it's happening right before his eyes. And he has transformed his game now to a much higher level offensive player than I think a lot of people thought he would be at this level. So if you had him that kind of has your sneaky most improved player, that's a great perception on your part because this run he's in now can kind of put him in that conversation. That's probably still better candidates because guys jumped from non existent to like wow, like you know, Reed Shepard, Colin Gillespies of the world like those guys what what they've done to impact really good teams when they really weren't a factor last year at all. Maybe a little bit ahead of the of a guy like Jason Wallace but man has he been impressive with what he has done and the scoring binge that he's on right now. And he did it again last night against the top shelf defense and another
- [10:03]
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guy who I probably has missed too many games now to that Fitcher, Gillespie, shepherd is his teammate, A.J. mitchell, who's a big part of the Thunder scoring machine and a big part of the non shay lineups. And look like we saw it with Denver, with Peyton Watson when Jokic was out and all their starters except Murray were out even he was out. The more guys the playoffs are going to get real hard. You're going to have segments of games whether Shea is in the game or not, where they take away your best stuff, where they throw in a zone and you don't quite know what to do with it. For two possessions where guys are injured or slumping and like that in the shot clock says five and like someone's got to do something and the more someone's got to do something guys you have on your team, the more likely you are to actually advance out of those sticky situations. Before we leave this game. I actually think this is interesting. It's going to touch on the MVP conversation a little bit. Do you think so? Detroit is now the number one overall seed. I believe at 43 and 14. They have a six game lead in the last column in the East. They're going to be the number one seed in the East. And maybe overall, do they have enough offense to actually get through three and maybe even four playoff rounds?
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I think they've got enough to, to, to get through the Eastern Conference. You know, you run into whoever that would be coming out of the west that might be a little bit different. I think they've got it. I think they've got enough. And it's a good question because when you look at where the offense creation comes from outside Kate Cunningham, you know, to me that's his greatest argument when you start talking about MVP consideration, is that Jalen Duran's had a great year. Jalen Duran is not an offense creator. Jalen Duran's a finisher and he's an elite rebounder. And you know, he's taken his offensive game to another level in large part to what Cade Cunningham has become as a playmaker. When you look at the other guys that flat the rotation, you don't have guys that can go really create anything off ball screen or off of the ability to post up and make plays out of the post. And it's Cade's show. So this team is like offensively deficient in certain areas. But I think they've got enough because their defense is so good most nights. And listen, you're talking about 30, you know, the playoffs, 35 to 40 minutes every night where you've got Cade Cunningham on the floor. So he alone represents enough offense because I haven't seen anybody yet this year get him out of his comfort zone. The guy is so certain with where he's about to go on the floor and his ability to just, you know, really easily get to his spots and control you and then beat you either way, scoring, passing, he could beat you both ways. He's on the floor most of the game. So for me that almost represents enough for them because their defense is so good and they can win games a lot of ways they can win Games, you know,125,122 if it's a shootout on a certain night and they could also win games. 10298 if he doesn't shoot well or they don't shoot well as a team and the three point shooting is a real consideration for them. But I just think he, Cunningham so good, he's become so good offensively that I think their defense gives them enough offense.
- [13:09]
A
Yeah, the line, the line for me that is so interesting with Detroit is do you have two non shooters on the floor which they start with in Duran and Asar Thompson in their starting five along with Cade Tobias and Duncan Robinson. And by the way, they used Duncan Robinson in so many different ways as a screener, as a staggered screener, as, you know, a catch and go, empty side pick and roll guy. With Duran, like they really maximize his gravity in very smart ways. But those are two non shooters. Now they create offense in their own ways which we can talk about once they introduce a third one like Ron Holland plus those two guys or Javante Green plus those two guys. The spacing equation starts to get a little bit troubling for them. But I'm sold that their offense, which is 10th overall in the NBA is good enough for them to make the finals. And I'm sold for this reason. Number one, they're just so gigantic and physical that they're going to get free throws on offensive rebounds every single night. Number two, all of those guys I mentioned who are quote unquote non shooters are really, really good cutters. And it's. It's like not all good cutters are created equal. These good cutters, Thompson, Holland, the centers, especially Thompson and Holland are super physical and athletic. So they can finish in tight spaces in ways that smaller, less athletic cutters, non shooters might not be able to. They are especially a SAR Thompson, very clever interior passers. They time their cuts well. Like it's not all shaky shooting cut, heavy interior passing heavy teams are created equal. And these guys are so smart and so explosive that I think they will just manufacture enough points through non cade stuff or cade adjacent stuff that you plop on the Duncan Robinson stuff and you plop on the elite defense. And I do think despite the fact that they've only had one playoff appearance really as a unit and they lost so one playoff series lost, no wins. Despite the fact that they're shooting like even is Caris Levert a shooter or a non shooter, it's sort of hard to quantify him. Tobias Harris goes up and down like it's not an ideal offensive setup. But I think they make the most of it and I think they make the most of it in ways that yeah, defenses are going to game plan for them and throw different looks at them. They already see a ton of zone as it is. They're going to try to throw their centers on a sar Thompson and have Them roam around like they've seen all that, but they'll see it more and they'll see it in more varieties and trickier ways in the playoffs. I still think they squeeze out enough points to win three playoff series. Like, I don't think it's a disqualifier for them by any means to make the finals because I just trust in their physicality, their effort, their rebounding, and they're just, they just do what they do really well.
- [15:47]
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And I think your point about the cutting is, is, is really astute because what, what you see when you, when you watch the Pistons watch the number of late finds that they have. And by the late find, I mean once Cade Cunningham has made his mind that he's, you know, he's kind of in attack mode, trying to get downhill or he's backing a guy down, like the number of times it looks like he's about to now go into shoot mode, whether he's going to finish at the rim or he's going to shoot a little turnaround jump for the post or whatever it may be, the number of times you get a weak side to strong side slash into the middle of the lane or along the baseline. And he is so good at finding those guys and making you pay. Right at the time you start to turn your attention as a weak side defender to Cade Cunningham, heads turn at some point, eyeballs get on Cade.
- [16:33]
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It's.
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It's inevitable you'll get a couple defenders will turn their head right about the time you think, hey, Cunningham is about to go into shoot mode and here comes whoever, Holland, Thompson, Duran, Green, whoever, like behind your back along the baseline, like right in front of you, they face cut you because you weren't turning and you didn't chip them as they were making that cut. Detroit is so good at that. I love the point about manufacturing points. Outside of what looks like traditional, you know, high ball screen NBA offense with a great player, they find all kinds of ways to get to their number with, with defensive pressure that leads to run outs, getting on the offensive glass, guys through just effort, drawing fouls that lead to, hey, we're in the penalty six minutes into the quarter and now because of a hustle play, you get a guy going and getting two cheap free throws because of their effort defensively or their effort on the glass, they find a way to round out the polished part of their offense, which is Cade and Duran, with these other ways of scoring and they get to their number and at the same time they're doing that like it's hard to score against them. It's hard to get transition points against them. It's hard to get second chance points against them. They do as good a job as anybody at denying your initial pass where you're just trying to make a wing pass to start a set. All of a sudden against Detroit, that ball's caught at 35ft. You know when they then reverse it to the top of the key, that guy's forced out to 35ft. All of that stuff matters in terms of timing and how teams want to run offense. Detroit is really good at just taking away freedom of movement, at forcing you further out on the floor as you get deeper into the clock that the passes go toward half court as you're now trying to reset and run something else because your initial set didn't work. They're just so good at that. The two teams last night I talked to Mark about this before the game. I just thought last night and the San Antonio I'd kind of put in this category as well. But I think last night I was watching like the gold standard for literally competing every single possession on both ends. The two teams I saw last night and that's what Detroit has become. So give JB Bickerson a lot of credit. They've got high character guys that want to compete and they've got enough talent to do it. And so to answer your question, yes, I think they have enough. Particularly when I look at the rest of the east and go which of these teams would you say they can't get by because they don't have enough offense? I don't think there is a team in the east that I would say that about.
- [19:10]
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Well, and the team that looked like it was going to solidify itself as that team perhaps more than any other team in their universe was Cleveland, maybe is Cleveland. You're going to see them I think tomorrow against the Pistons and James Harden has this thumb fracture on his non shooting hand that he might try to play through it might not try to play through. If he sits I think he'd be Jeff Stotts at in street close is the injury expert I always go to has the timing that he'd be back but by the time of the playoffs and probably before. But it's just a. It's a wild card thrown in for a team that didn't really need a wild card thrown in right away that just sort of remade its team with the Harland Hard Harland I'll just call it the Harland swap on Cade and Cade's Passing. Before we get to the spurs, you know, we have this MVP race that's getting weird. Like, Jokic is on the verge of being ineligible. Got to play almost every game. Shea's got a little bit of wiggle room, but it's getting less and less every game. Wemby is on the verge of being ineligible has less and less room to miss games. And if in a world where all three of them don't get to 65 games, we have this next pot of players that we're going to turn to. And I think it's probably comes down to five guys. Cade, to me, it's. You could throw in more, but I have Cade in no order. Anthony Edwards, Kyle, Jaylen Brown, who's getting a ton of MVP buzz. This is my favorite story of the week, by the way, is all these stories about how Jaylen Brown. Why is Jaylen Brown not getting MVP buzz? Every time I turn on television, there's Jaylen Brown MVP buzz and then there's buzz about the stories about how he's not getting enough MVP buzz. I'm like, what world are we living in? So Cade, Jalen Brown, Anthony Edwards, Luka Doncic, which is a whole can of worms, and Donovan Mitchell, those would be my five. You can go back and forth and order them any way you want in your preference. We're not going to do that. We'll do it later. I would just say the one thing I'll say about Cade is Kate and Jaylen Brown is going to be an interesting debate where both fan bases are going to be insanely passionate about, well, it's my guy. My guy does more with less. My guy has more scoring, my guy has more passing, blah, blah, blah. To me, this is the one that I'm pretty confident about, is that I would have Cade over Jaylen Brown for sure. And, like, I hate doing this because it comes off as like, Zach slams Jaylen Brown. No, they're both awesome. They're both going to be either first or second team. All NBA on my fake ballot and on the real ballots. But to me, Cade is a slightly worse shooter. Efficiency wise, he's 51%. Let me get it right. No. 46% overall. Jalen Brown's 48%. Threes are pretty much equal. So Jaylen Brown is 53 on twos, Cade's 52, 51 and a half on twos, and Jaylen Brown has a few more points. To me, defensively, it's probably about a wash. They're both pretty solid. Kate is. Kate is like more of a playmaker. I think defensively you saw it last night Night Live. But they're both, they're both, they're both pretty solid to me. The assists 10 a game and versus 5 a game and their turnovers being pretty equal. They can both be turnover prone players. But the turnover assisted turnover ratio is so massive for Cade, his passing. I think people are sleeping on his passing because it's just sort of this thing like lead ball handlers just pile up assist numbers because they have the ball all the time and he is the number one, number two, number three option on his own team. He's become a legit great passer who has every pass in his bag and the timing you mentioned the late passes. But he'll get off of it early when it, when the situation dictates that he should get off of it early. He'll get off of it in at times where the defense isn't quite expecting him to do it because he knows where his teammates are going to be. Not where they are, but where they're going to be. And last night you nailed it late in the game. He runs this pick and roll with Duran and he throws an early pocket pass like one or two dribbles earlier. He doesn't prod all the way into the paint. He's just inside the three point line, lefty in the middle of his dribble like a live dribble pocket pass. Ho hum. Jalen Duran finishes with a dunk or an AND one or something. And you said that's about as pedestrian as you can make a great pass look. And I was so glad you said it because I thought the same thing when it happened is like no one's going to notice that pass. It's just a pocket pass. It's. It looks like a dime a dozen. It was earlier than the defense expected. It was perfectly timed. It was in the middle of his dribble so they couldn't sit on it and it was accurate. And this guy is just become a next level passer with every read in his bag. And to me that elevates him to like if you would argue that he's the number one on your list of all of those guys underneath the top three MVP candidates. I, I may not have him number one but he's definitely above Jaylen Brown and he's, he's just been phenomenal.
- [23:49]
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I love what you're talking about, his passing and that play in particular because of the angle in which it occurred. It was like I had a perfect sight line as he Came off that screen, like where I was sitting, I could see exactly what he was looking at in terms of traffic in the lane. And when he threw the pass, it didn't look like there was any room in there to get that pass. And he never even doubted that that was the play to make. And he threw it perfectly. Now, Dern's got great hands. He catches all these now finishes. So it wasn't necessarily the easiest catch, but the delivery of it happened so quickly with his left hand off the dribble. The defense didn't react to it. This is an elite defense. Even though they're missing some guys, it got through this little tight window in there. And what it told me was, now Kate Cunningham has now taken his game to a level where there's basically four passes that have to be made. If you want to be considered one of the great playmakers in the league, there's really only four, and then there's a variety of how you do those. It's the pocket pass off of ball screen where you have to deliver the ball to a roller in the lane in traffic. And that's usually a bounce pass. That's why we call it a pocket pass. You drop it down either hand. He can make that now. So you're talking about getting in a category with Luka, with. With Jokic, with LeBron. I think Thomas Halliburton is capable of making all those passes. Now. Cade's in that category as well. The pocket pass, the lob off ball screen, getting downhill again, going right, going left. You have to be able to throw that lob softly, accurately, right where your guy needs it, and then basically a strong side kick out when you're going downhill. And a weak side kick out, some of them could be to the opposite corner or the opposite wing or strong side corner, wing, you know, so you're really kind of just, you know, basically mincing words there. But it comes down to, can you make the weak side kick out once you've gone downhill on a rope to a shooter over there because you've drawn so much attention to yourself? And can you make the strong side pass, which, you know, a lot of guys in the league can make that, but who can make all four of those types of passes? There's only a handful of guys in the league that can do it. Cade can do it. Now. He is controlling the defense with his size, his vision, his timing, and his eyes. I saw last night several plays where he froze that defender that has to rotate on the next pass on the weak side like Literally froze him in their tracks because he looked in one direction and threw it to a different guy. And that means the defender has to wait a quarter of a second to now go try to close out. And that's all a shooter needs to make that a much higher percentage shot. So Cade can do all of those things now. And I just think the responsibility he has to. To set the table and then decide games. Here, here's the ball. Go decide the game. It doesn't always mean scoring. Sometimes it does, but it could mean just making the right pass at the right time and making the game a lot easier for guys on your team that need you to help them. Cade can do all of that. So, yeah, this. And you're right about those guys that don't qualify do qualify if you eliminate all of those guys. I think Cade Cunningham is clearly the front runner. And as it is, I think Cade Cunningham should deserve some consideration even if those guys are eligible.
- [27:08]
A
I can't consider him for the number one spot if all three of those guys are eligible, even if he has a big lead in games played and minutes, because I just think their permanent value is so high. But you know, a couple of things that you mentioned, number one, like being legit. Six. Six is just a huge part of what makes him so good. And it's like the height to see every pass and make every pass. It's one of the reasons why Harden is a really interesting fit in Cleveland as opposed to Garland, because Garland is a slick ball handler, slick passer, has great vision, but there are just certain passes he literally can't execute because he's not big enough to get them over people. And so that's why he has to get so crafty and do the Nash dribble under the rim and keep his dribble alive. And like all that stuff can work. And it worked really well when he was healthy and it worked for the Cavs. Harden just has access to like earlier, quicker, easier reads that just. It's just a little simpler for the Cavs offense and we'll talk about his fit. Cade, to your point, I looked up just. I like to look up clutch stats because I think they're kind of just a fun window into a particular season. And after all, the MVP award is about a particular season and you're going to have to end up splitting hairs between players who are more or less equal. All amazing. Cade has taken the second most shots in the league now in the last five minutes of close games. He's 39 of 78, so 50%. He's a he. He's a little more careful with the ball in crunch time. He's plus 57 in those minutes, which is number two in the league. No, I'm sorry, it's number. It's tied for like seventh, but it's a lot of pistons on that list. The only guy who's taken more shots is Maxey, and he's just been a crunch time machine. And you saw it last night. And I just think that's a little feather in his cap. Let's. Why don't I just rank them now? Should we just do the rankings now?
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B
Sure, let's do it.
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So we're going to leave Wemby, Jokic and SGA out and I gave you five guys saying, you know, this is the next tier to me of MVP candidates. And if you wanted to add a six like Jalen Brunson or Tyrese Maxey or whoever you think it should be, that's fine, too. Donovan Mitchell, Jalen Brown, Anthony Edwards, Cade Cunningham, Luka Doncic. What is Tim Legler's order of those players as of February 26th?
- [29:27]
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I would put Kate Cunningham.
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One.
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B
I would put. And if this is where it got tougher, that's an easy one for me. Kate Cunningham's next guy on the list, without question. To me, it gets tougher than deciding between Jaylen Brown and Luka. I would put those two guys, flip a coin. If I had to, I'd lean toward Jaylen Brown just because of. You're talking about that they have the fourth best record in the league. And like, take your pick. On a given night, your second best offensive player is either Peyton Pritchard or Derrick White. I mean, Jalen Brown, his level of effort every single night defensively and like taking on the challenge responsibility of who he has to guard. They don't hide him ever. Even though it's more important than ever now to keep him out of foul trouble because you don't have Tatum and what he has to do and he's averaging just under 30 points a game. He's not the playmaker that some of the other guys on this list are. That's not going to be his thing. And when it comes time to decide games, it's going to be mostly go get yours as opposed to like a guy like Luka or a guy like Cade. It might be a totally different way. It might be they're going to beat you literally for this stretch with their passing in an important spot in the game. For Jalen Brown, it's going to Be more like, go get yours. He's rebounding at a high level. Seven a game. It's the defense combined with the fact that this team has so far surpassed expectations to this point in the season to imagine that they could have the fourth best record in the league in large part to what he has to do every night for them offensively putting the ball in the basket. I would probably give him the edge over Lucas. So if you want to stop there, that's like my next three guys. I would go K Jalen Brown. Luka would be the next three.
- [31:07]
A
Okay. I don't really get. I would. I would have both Anthony Edwards and Donovan Mitchell above Jaylen Brown and I don't really understand why neither of those guys is in this tier of players. Mitchell 28 and a half a game. Six assists, 48% shooting, 58% on twos, 37% on threes and 29.6 points a game. Five boards, four assists. Record wise, yes. The Celtics are 38 and 20. The Cavs are 37 and 23. They feel disappointing. They are a little bit disappointing. I don't think it's Donovan Mitchell's fault. And they're close. The Wolves are 36 and 23 in the Superior conference. Like I'm going to call the records pretty much a wash. Certainly the surprise factor is on Jaylen Brown's favor. But all the efficiency stats and passing stats. Well, not all the passing stats. Jalen Brown's averaging more assistant and favor those other guys. I think defensively I think ants probably a little better than Jalen Brown in my opinion. We could split hairs on that. It's. It's six of one half dozen the other just because of size. I would probably put Donovan Mitchell as the third best defender among them. But I think they're all fine, basically. Does it matter to you at all? And I'm not saying it should because it matters to me only a little bit. But I'm not sure how much that The Celtics are plus four and a half with Jalen Brown on the floor per 100 possessions and plus 12 with him off the floor per 100 possessions does that. They are quote and I'm putting air quotes better with Jalen Brown on the bench. Now that's a ridiculous statement. I realize that. But does that. Does that. Whereas just as an example, The Pistons are plus 11 with Cade on the floor, plus 3 with Kate off the floor. The Cavs are. Where's my Cavs notes? Plus 9 with Mitchell on the floor, minus 3 with Mitchell off the floor. The Wolves are about the same, plus four and a half, plus five. Either way. Should that matter?
- [33:16]
B
Maybe not. As maybe it matters more to some people than others. Doesn't matter as much to me. I mean, for me, a lot of it is. I can. There are. Sometimes I look at the data and the analytics and it's, you know, I use it. But a lot of it is also, for me, just kind of like eyeball test and then watching every night. And by the way, listen, you're talking about, you're talking about splitting hairs. I mean, you're talking about the finest of lines.
- [33:41]
A
Yeah. And this is what drives me nuts
- [33:42]
B
about the decisions between these players.
- [33:43]
A
Yeah. When you, when you pick one guy over another, it's always perceived as like a massive slight. It's just like these are decisions I just have to make. I have to put one to five on a ballot. And so someone's got to be third and someone's got to be fifth. That doesn't mean they're not all awesome.
- [33:57]
B
I will say, I do think I thought you glossed over a little bit. Something that I put a lot more weight into. When you basically said the records are kind of a wash. I would not agree with that. When you look at the Boston Celtics roster and where they are, there is, to me, that is a significant part of this conversation.
- [34:21]
A
So how can the roster in Boston be so. And this is a rhetorical question because I get what you're saying. This team, I took the under on Boston at 41 and a half. So obviously I had major questions about the roster. I said before the season, my God, they have no proven big man in the entire rotation. Their big man rotation is Nimi Keda and Luka Garza and maybe like a cameo from Chris Boucher. I can't believe how thin this team is. All the talent that went out the door, Holiday, Porzingis, Horford, Cornett, on and on and on. So I, I have to own that. Like, I clearly, I, I clearly thought this roster was deficient. It turns out that I was wrong about that. So how is the roster so thin? And they're plus 12 per 100 possessions with Jalen Brown on the bench. Like, now, in fairness to Jaylen Brown, plus four and a half with him on the floor is super meaningful to me because it's a big, it's a solid margin. He's playing a ton of minutes. He's playing minutes against the best lineups on the other team. Those other lineups are playing largely against backup, hybrid starter, backup lineups. So I don't. They're not dispositive numbers to me. They're hair splitting numbers to me. If I'm splitting hairs between Donovan Mitchell and Jaylen Brown and Mitchell has efficiency stats that Jaylen Brown doesn't have, the hairs matter a little bit. But I just, I think it's an interesting debate point because there is the perception that Jaylen Brown is doing so much with so little and then you have this off court stat that is so wild. And then you look at like, then you have to look under the hood like what's happening when Jalen Brown is off the floor that this, that is driving this Celtics success. And what you see in that, in that, in those minutes if you isolate them is opponents are ice cold on mid range jump shots. Opponents are ice cold at shots at the rim. Does that really have anything to do with Jaylen Brown not being on the floor? I don't think so. I think that's just probably mostly random. Their turnovers are. They force fewer turnovers and they foul more. Is that Jaylen Brown is that. Or they foul less rather they, they. Is that about Jaylen Brown? It's like it could just be just random noise too, right?
- [36:30]
B
Yeah, look, and I think you're making really good points of, of that help my argument for him. I think the fact that he, you know, he is. The amount of attention he is commanding now from opposing defenses and like what he's facing when he's on the floor can affect some of those numbers on, off who those guys are playing against. When you're talking about backups versus backups, I think yeah, those numbers can be skewed a little bit. You, you talked about the roster. How can the roster be like so thin and yet they play that well with him off the court? And so let's just talk about the roster. I love Derrick White, huge Derrick White fan. Derrick White's had a really tough year shooting the ball. It's been a little bit better lately, but he really struggled most of the year shooting the basketball by his standards. Peyton Pritchard, you know, Peyton Pritchard going into this year, in five years had started 17 games. He's basically been a backup player.
- [37:24]
A
And then he goes out there in some of these games and he's like, I'll just cook everybody on the Lakers with crazy one on one moves, including guys who are like a foot taller than me. I'll just move you and shoot an eight foot jumper over you. It's crazy how good that guy is, right?
- [37:37]
B
And look and some of it might be to your argument. Maybe some people go, well then maybe then he's just better than you thought when you're analyzing their roster. Yeah, maybe, but, but look, I'm just talking about going into the season. You don't have Tatum. Peyton Pritchard just second leading scorer. He had started 17 games in five years. He's been a backup. I know he was a sixth man of the year and he had an incredible year shooting the basketball last year. But what he has done this year like to keep them afloat is incredible. Totally unexpected. He could be this good offensively and Derrick White hasn't been as good as you expected to be offensively and yet they have the fourth best record in the NBA and also another point. How is it possible that they could do that? Let's give Joe Missoula some love here because I think Joe Missoula, even though he's won a championship, I still feel like it's almost like this is the year that Joe Missoula is like getting universal praise for like the level of coaching and the level of culture and consistency of like expectations. They have non negotiable effort standards.
- [38:40]
A
I'm glad you're bringing this up. Not to interrupt you, but to make your point for you. You mentioned before how last night Thunder Pistons in person was the pinnacle of just hard playing, no possessions off for any of the 10 players on the floor teams. And then you said the spurs would also fall into that bucket. And I wanted to say at the time, Boston for me is on that list too. Like this is just, I keep saying it, every pot, a professional fucking basketball team from top to bottom, they do everything right. They do not take possessions off. It's just, it's a tribute to anyone. And like look, I think coach of the year is going to come down to Missoula, Bickerstaff and Jordanott. And then below that there's, there's so many great coaches in the league. I'm a little bit worried Phoenix's record is going to slip to the point where odds candidacy is going to suffer maybe unfairly. And Bickerstaff, what can you say? The Pistons have the best record in the NBA. I think I would vote for Joe Missoula as of now because I just think so much of how they play, both effort wise and stylistically and tactically is a reflection of him and his basketball philosophy. I think he's done an unbelievable job.
- [39:43]
B
Yeah, I think for me I thought Jordan Ott was the leader in the clubhouse and I think you're right. Like the injury to Dylan Brooks. Booker's out right now. Who knows what their record ends up being. It's going to be much harder for him to win the award, if that. You know, the gap between the 500 line isn't as great as it looked like it was going to be because again, that's one of the great stories. And by the way, I don't know that I necessarily put them quite in the same category as the four teams we mentioned in terms of this non negotiable effort.
- [40:11]
A
Standard Phoenix.
- [40:12]
B
But Phoenix is pretty damn, pretty damn good when you watch them. And that's to me was like the number one like calling card for him and why he deserved a shot at coach of the year because you're talking about a complete cultural identity change with the way we perceive their product and perceive their franchise. But there's no mistake that you're going to lose more games now than you thought because of the injuries. So I look at Missoula and I think, yeah, I think Missoula's got a really, really strong argument for the award. Here's it's interesting to me, the J.B. bickerstaff thing. I actually thought Jamie Bickerstaff could have gotten it last year.
- [40:48]
A
Did he come second last year? I think he might have come second.
- [40:51]
B
Kenny Atkinson won it. And you know, Look, Cleveland doing 64 games, man, it was an incredible story. But they were already a really good team under Bickerstaff. Kenny Atkinson just somehow squeezed more juice out of them and they became like a more of a threat. Even though the end of the season looks similar, during the season it looked like, okay, this team, watch out. So Kenny Atkinson got. I had no problem with that. He's a great coach. He deserved it. I thought JB Bickerstaff inheriting a team that lost 28 straight games and you turned and now that's that. That to me was his greatest argument for it. So here's why I say that. Because he didn't get it last year and Atkinson did. I think Jamie Bickerstaff, it's almost like he's got to get it one of these two years. And I think if they end up with certainly they're going to have the best record in the East. I think that's barring some sort of injury to Kate Cunningham, I think they're going to have best record East. They might have the best record overall, the entire league. If that's the case, I think JB Biggerstaff very likely could get it. I think Missoula like, to me, this is like his strongest argument to ever win it is this year, even though he's already got a title because of how far they have exceeded expectations. You said you took the under on basically a 500 season.
- [42:01]
A
Yeah.
- [42:01]
B
And they're 18 games above 500 now. I don't know what they're going to end up. Maybe they end up, you know, 50 and 32. Maybe they get 54 and 28. Like, I don't know how far above 500 they're going to be. It's absolutely mind blowing to me that they could be in the position they're in, not having Jayson Tatum all year and. And some of the other guys they lost that were key figures for them over the last several years. So for me, this is. You're right. I think this is Missoula's greatest argument he's made in his career for that award.
- [42:33]
A
Just if I. I made you rank all these guys and what did you went, Cade, Luca, Jaylen Brown, and then you had a little thing, Donovan. And I think I would.
- [42:44]
B
And to me, Jaylen Brown, Anthony Edwards, Donovan Mitchell. Man, put. Put three names in a hat. Pick them in terms of ranking those three guys. It's that close. It's that tough. Everybody's gonna have their arguments for different guys.
- [42:59]
A
You think Luca is clearly above those guys other than Cade?
- [43:03]
B
No, I don't. And. And part of me thinks that Luca could get hurt. It's kind of crazy because, like, when you, when you don't put Luca, like just in these kind of conversations and formats to discuss this kind of stuff, like, if you don't put Luca in like that stratosphere, like, people freak out. It's like, because, like, like the statistical
- [43:26]
A
country of Slovenia and Baltic region will come at you. Man, don't, don't mind. I'll tell you. It happens. I know it personally.
- [43:33]
B
Oh, I know. I've seen it. And look, you know, you go back to, you know, how, how, like how much of a proponent I was for Luca, like in the Dallas days and some of the, you know, some of the stuff that I did, breaking his game down and when they acquired, the year they acquired PJ Washington and Gafford and I at that time, I said, I think this team could get to the finals, like it was because of Luca. Then they put the right pieces around him. You know, there's been a lot of stuff that's happened with Lucas since that point that kind of, I think, detracts from him in certain ways. But when you talk about just his controlling a game to the extent that he does. And it's really on one end of the floor. You know, he's not going to get any points defensively in this conversation. And some of these guys we've talked about, we factor it in with Jaylen Brown, we factored in with Anthony Edwards, we factored in with Wemby, we factored in with Shea.
- [44:23]
A
We.
- [44:24]
B
Donovan Mitchell, you said is fine. Like, he's solid. You're not going to use that as a weakness. Maybe it doesn't factor in as much with Luke. It doesn't factor at all, like literally at all that end of the floor. So it's got to be he's that great offensively that he still deserves to be in a conversation. So, no, to answer your question, is it clear that he's absolutely above those other three guys? No, it's not. I wouldn't say that it's clear. I still just look at him in the way that he controls a game, and I think, like, it's so unique in his ability to just control the defense the way that he does, unlike really anybody else. That's why I still put him up there.
- [45:00]
A
But no, it's not.
- [45:01]
B
It's not clear to me.
- [45:02]
A
It's funny, you know, you and I are like Luka, true believers. And the hate still reaches us. Anyway, like, I think I'm 18 months removed, maybe even less like a year removed. But from saying, although Shea's going to win the mvp, I think, like for next season, I would still take Luka over Shay by a hair. Maybe it was two years ago. It was like it was. It was at a time when Shai had reached the level he's more or less at now. Because I just think I have that much faith in Lucas playmaking and that statement just looks more and more foolish with every passing day. Shay is if either the best or second best player. I think second best in the NBA and the favorite for mvp. And he should be the favor for mvp. He's absolutely unbelievable. It's why we haven't even talked about him in this conversation. It's just de facto he's above Luka. If I just. This is just my blink test as of today, kind of projecting where I think the team records will end up and where the point differentials will end up. I think I would go Cade, Mitchell, Edwards, Luka Brown, and then I think Kawhi has to at least be mentioned as long as he's eligible because he's been that good. It's just, it Just is not the right season. I don't think Duke to put Kawhi like third on the MVP ballot. But it's, it's all very hard. And we have this other wild card coming super tough.
- [46:19]
B
So here's, here's. And here's. Here's what, what I'll. I'll say about it with whatever. These teams all have a little over 20 games to play. And like you said, the eligibility thing could factor in huge with how it's
- [46:30]
A
like for Luka and we'll see where the Lakers record is too.
- [46:34]
B
That's true. I think if you look at it and let's just for the sake of this conversation assume that all these guys meet the eligibility requirements. Sga, Jokic, Wemby, Cade, I think are all top locks to be first team all NBA. I don't. Do you agree?
- [46:56]
A
I didn't have Cade as a lock.
- [46:58]
B
You don't think Cade's a lock for first team all NBA?
- [47:01]
A
I've come around. I had Mitchell and Edwards in the same tier as him and, and kind of blurried it a little bit. I, I think I'm coming around on Cade's first team, all NBA.
- [47:12]
B
Listen, here's, here's if I were Cade cunning like especially if he keeps shooting
- [47:16]
A
threes well, if that three point percentage keeps ticking up the way it is, he, he becomes like a legitimate holy shit kind of problem.
- [47:22]
B
Yeah. And I don't know if it's going to.
- [47:23]
A
It's.
- [47:24]
B
It's like just good enough that you gotta honor it and that sets up other stuff for him. I don't even know it's gonna matter. He could shoot 32, 33% for the year from the three and I don't think it's gonna matter. I think he's gonna. I think he's going to be a lock for first team. It's funny because I was talking about to somebody about this last night. If all of these guys wanted to just kind of go make it like, you know, whatever man. A 10, 15 minute tape on themselves from this season to make their argument for all league all Cade Cunningham would have to submit would just be the game against the Knicks.
- [47:57]
A
I was at that game. It was insane.
- [47:59]
B
That to me was like top five best individual performances I've seen in the league all year. And here's the thing. A lot of people are kind of, you know, they aren't necessarily die hard watching a lot of Detroit Pistons games. Right. Because there's bigger names like sexier stories out there. But you're starting to become really aware of how good this guy is. That game, to me, because of what. What that game meant. They had blasted the Knicks twice by more than 30. You come into the Garden, the Knicks have everybody healthy. They're going to make their statement. Tonight's the statement. We're going to. We're going to stand up to these guys. We're going to show them. And Cade Cunningham did what?
- [48:41]
A
No Duran or Stewart either, by the way, about that.
- [48:44]
B
No Duran. Cade Cunningham did whatever he wanted. 42 points, 13 assists. Another dominant, like, not really compelling possessions in the fourth quarter. They weren't tested by the Knicks. I felt like that game because a lot of eyeballs are always on the Knicks and a lot of eyeballs were on that game because, wow, this is going to be a battle. The playoffs last year was a war. Now the Knicks are going to stand up. This is going to be an alley fight. So there was a lot of attention on the game. I felt like Cade Cunningham completely like, like a rocket, elevated himself into not only like some MVP talk. And I agree with you. I think Shay's the front runner. I think Shane yokut still are 12 and how I'd rank them. He elevated himself at least like chip away a little bit of that narrative, but more importantly to me, absolutely cemented himself. Okay, we know. I think we're three of the first team. All league are going to go. I got down the fourth one locked up. I felt like that game kind of did that for him in terms of the national conversation around him and around the Pistons and because he was that sensational in that game. So for me, I think Cade Cunningham particularly, man, this team's going to potentially have the best record in the entire league. Kate Cunningham is going to be first.
- [49:59]
A
I think if you put them all like I'm a little higher on Anthony Edwards and Donovan Mitchell, I think, than consensus. I think they're just efficiency stats are unbelievable. Ant is like sniffing 50, 40, 80 kind of shooting right now. So if you give them the edge in shooting efficiency. But Cade I think is defensively maybe a tiny bit better, but the playmaking is so much better. And the fact that he has to do it on a team that's completely bereft of other playmakers and you throw in the winning. I think Ty goes kind of to the winning. Let's take a quick break and then we're going to talk about the guy that we're kind of talking around this entire time a little bit. The Zach Lowe show is brought to you by fanduel fanduel's putting you in control right now from tip off. That's right, you get to choose your reward. Play it safe. Go for it. Feeling bold. That's your move. Whatever your style, you're in control no matter how you play. 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Try Claude for free at Claude AI Lo and see why problem solvers choose Claude as their thinking partner. We haven't been talking directly about him, but he's been hovering over this entire conversation like he hovers over the entire paint and really the radius above the paint too. Victor Wembanyama and the Spurs. Clunky game in Toronto. Nothing going right. They're down 15 late in the third quarter. They come back and win their 10th consecutive game. They are now 42 and 16, one game behind the Thunder in the loss column for the number one seed in the West. Yes, sure Tim, some of those 10 wins you got the Zombie Thunder, the Zombie warriors, the Zombie Lakers, the Kings appear once, the Mavs appear twice. It's not like a crazy 10 game winning streak, but there are a lot of blowouts. There are a lot of sort of signature moments at least including that ultra physical clash with the Pistons in Detroit earlier this week. Ten in a row. Wemby again like a bad shooting game and still seem to control like every inch of the game on both ends of the floor because of his gravity as a lob threat and his to me completely unprecedented probably in NBA history. Range of his defense and his the terror that he inspires. I want to start here with the Spurs. I had this conversation earlier this week with Michael Pena. The experience question, right? Like NBA history suggests, teams with little to no playoff experience simply do not make the Finals, let alone win the NBA championship. This team has no playoff experience other than some of its role players, certainly its core guys other than, you know, Fox has one playoff series loss. Let's just like dumb it down and say basically no playoff experience as a team. They are relying on rookies and second year guys and on and on and on. And I went through and I looked at like the history of the NBA the last 25 years post Jordan, who are there. Who would the closest analogs be of teams that sort of out of nowhere almost went from no playoff or minimal playoff experience all the way to the finals? And you can find a couple the 2021 Suns with Chris Paul, the 2020 bubble heat, a couple other teams that sort of maybe fit the Nets way back when they got Jason Kidd and it's always the importation of a super duper star talent, Jimmy Butler, et cetera, Chris Paul that changes a team. And the breaks go right for them and they're in the finals. I'm all in on the spurs. The minute they beat the Thunder on Christmas. I had Kurt Goldsberry on my podcast and he said, what's the ceiling for this team? And I said I think the ceiling is they can win the championship. So I answered that question for myself on Christmas. The experience factor doesn't really. It, it troubles me a little bit because they are very young and they are untested and they haven't been through the kind of wars that the Thunder, who are still the favorites, who I would pick to win the West, I would pick them even to beat the spurs in a playoff series, despite how the regular season matchup between the two has gone. But to me, the experience question is I just think this team is this, is this good right now. And the combination of Fox playing a real season for them and Wembanyama leveling up on both ends of the floor to me is like the equivalent of introducing a superstar player onto a team that had an infrastructure that was pretty strong to begin with. I just, I think this team is, is like awesome. And I do think they can win the championship despite the requisite or what history would say the requisite required kind of experience level is.
- [55:17]
B
I completely agree that ceiling is win at all now because to me, what you're, when you say ceiling, what we're really saying is it's not out of the question that that could happen right now. I agree with you. I think you still have to make OKC like the betting favorite to win the west and to win it all. They've had so few games this year with everybody available. I was joking last night with, with Mark Dagnal, like, I feel like I haven't called a Thunder game. I think I've had three of them and they look so different with who's out there. And I look over, there have been nights they've been so dominant defensively and I look down, I'm like, oh, Caruso and Dort didn't play tonight. You're talking about two of the best defensive players in the league. And they still held some team to like 104. And you're like, I want to see all of those guys. And Shay, I think is right around the corner. A.J. mitchell's about to come back. Jalen Williams shortly after that. That last night didn't have chat Crusoe. Those were like sort of one offs. So they're close and I think they're going to have a 15 to 18 game push with everybody available to remind everybody what that looks like and how good that is. So I would still make OKC the favorite. But to say that San Antonio couldn't when they beat them three times in a row, particularly that third one. The third one was the one when you kind of go, wow. Because the first one was like in the in season, right? You're kind of like, okay, it's different. Everything about that's different. You know, it's not like a typical regular season game. Who knows what that did to the third. The next one was even more impressive. But then that third one, that's the one when you go, man. Because okc, much like the Knicks and Pistons I described the other night, the Knicks were like absolutely intent on playing well against the Pistons. That third time around, they still got beat badly. This was how I think OKC felt about that San Antonio game, the third one. And San Antonio still handled them. The ceiling is win it all because their defense is that good. They're incredibly tough. Like their guard play is so physical. And the number of guys they have that are willing to take on the challenge, they all brim with so much confidence in large part, look, because of who's back there behind them defensively and like the amount of mistakes that he can make them for even offensively in possessions went nowhere for 20 seconds. Let's just throw it up above the square and Wemby finishes it off for you. So I think that gives them a lot of confidence. To me when I watch them, I don't see glaring weaknesses other than they haven't really done any collective winning together as a group. So do you really do that? Do you really go into the postseason having won? Not at all together in the postseason. And you run through three rounds and get to the NBA Finals against the competition you're going to face in the West? It's unlikely. And that's why I still say Oklahoma City's would be my betting favorite. But to say it's impossible, I would not say that.
- [58:20]
A
I think they absolutely can. I would also have Oklahoma City as the favorite. I think no one is sleeping on them. I I It is a little worrisome to me that it feels like Jalen Williams is J Dub is like kind of barely going to have a regular season at this point. That's that's becoming a little worrisome to me. But they're so deep, so versatile, so talented that I just think they're obviously the favorites. Even though the spurs beat them four out of five. The four out of five matters to me because it gives the Spurs a shot in a head to head matchup that I frankly did not think they would have before the season. As high on them as I was. Are the Nuggets ever going to get healthy? They have the best player. Is Aaron Gordon ever going to get healthy? Like there are questions about every other team in the West. The spurs questions I have are the experience question, which is a real thing. Like you don't know what it feels like to be down 2:1 on the road in the second round of the playoffs. Until you're down 2:1 on the road in the second round of the playoff. That's a real thing. I think there's some question about do they have enough shooting? To me that I'm not super worried about that. I mentioned this on Tuesday. I think when you talk about playoff game planning, I think teams are going to be more targeted with how they match up with the Spurs. Like they'll dare Castle to shoot more than they are in the regular season. We've even seen a couple teams I've mentioned Memphis did this against them with Jaren Jackson Jr. Put him on Castle and switch around where you have guys guarding Wemby, different types of guys and dare their guys to shoot. I think the shooting has come around. The sell is kind of like leveling up right now before our eyes on both ends of the floor. That's a big deal. You mentioned the guards and how they compete. It's another question that they'll face. And again, matchups are just so important. Who do they have that's going to guard the big apex predator wing on another team? Because they don't really have an ideal solution for that. And yet it hasn't even mattered because their guards are pretty big for guards and they're so tough and they're so competitive. So they go down the stretch. Last night in Toronto, Brandon Ingram. Now Brandon Ingram's not Kawhi, he's not Aaron Gordon, he's not Kevin Durant, he's not Anthony Edwards, who size wise, the spurs guards can deal with. But he's tall and rangy and a great mid range scorer. Dylan Harper is guarding him. Stefan Castle is guarding him. They're giving up size and he makes a couple mid Rangers over them. But they're brutally tough shots and they're just in his jersey the entire game and it doesn't really matter. And Oklahoma City is, does not have the kind of player yet in Jalen Williams case that's kind of built to exploit that size and strength advantage the way that a Kawhi or an ant or whoever might be able to. So those are the questions that they're facing in addition to the experience question. But I'm sold on them as a legit title contender right behind Oklahoma City in the West. And it really just comes down to I think Wembanyama is that good. Like I just think he's this good right now and you know, I, I, he's just like, even when he has so, so offensive games, his dominance on defense is so all encompassing in a way that I don't think I've ever seen any player be able to have so much spatial dominance on the court. And it's possible no player ever has. And clearly his ceiling long term is best defensive player in the history of the NBA. Like that's the ceiling for him. And he's just so. I remember having this argument with about Kawhi when I, I voted Kawhi MVP in 2017 when Russ won. And part of it was I thought he was the best wing defender in the entire NBA and that has just massive. And I would say defense is half the game and I would get pushback and say defense really isn't half the game for Kawhi because teams can just steer their offense away from him no matter who he's guarding. They can park his guy in the corner and just say you're out of the play because we're not dealing with him. Wembanyama is the exception to that rule. You could not get him out of your hair defensively. He's everywhere all at once, guarding, affecting, where you go, what options you choose or choose not to do. It's just. It's a level of. It goes so far beyond just rim protection, beyond just limiting shots at the rim, which go down precipitously when he's on the floor. It's in everyone's head at all times. It's just. It's startling to watch in some of these games how teams try to figure out, what the hell are we even supposed to do with this guy on the floor.
- [62:46]
B
It's been really telling for me this year when I've sat there calling spurs games, because it's harder to pick this up on TV when you watch them. I've seen sets run by teams in the NBA when I'm looking right at their sight line, and I know against any other team, if they had that angle to take at that moment, they're taking that angle and they're trying to turn the corner, get to the rim. And it's amazing how differently they're processing that opportunity if Wemby's on the court. So you can see tangibly the number of shots he blocks, alters the space he covers, that kind of stuff. Everybody can see that. You can quantify by that. You can't quantify the number of decisions that are made that are outside of what some players would normally do and that that really counts and how you're trying to run your offense and be effective against them. It's like the ultimate compliment that you can give a guy. You're right guy like Kawhi, like, defensively, you know, you could treat him like the shutdown corner in the NFL. And by the way, we're just going to figure out a game plan to the other side of the field.
- [63:52]
A
And that still hurts your offense because you're just taking entire pages out of your playbook. But it's different than what Wembanyama is doing.
- [64:00]
B
Yeah, but it's different.
- [64:00]
A
It's.
- [64:01]
B
It's the equivalent. If you could continue to use the NFL analogy, it's equivalent of putting him as. At. As the free safety, but his fingertips touch both sidelines. So now, now, now you're like, okay, well, where do I go? Like, the tight end's not open either, and neither is this other receiver that I was going to go to. That's what we're Talking about here and the way he affects it. I do have an interesting question about him because I went back to like 2000. I didn't keep going, but I went back as far as that. That's a long sample size, large sample size. We started talking about mbp. Answer this question first. Would you say. And most of our conversation was about this, so I think I know your answer. Would you say when you. When the name Victor Wembanyama comes up, are you still thinking in your head, impact greater defensively than offensively?
- [64:51]
A
Yeah. Yes, for sure. And that's not. That's. That's not a slight on his offense, although I think offense offensively, there are games where he, His. His ability to score the ball is. Is limited a little bit. Obviously, his vertical threat is always around, but it's more. That's more about like his, his impact on defense is like nothing I've ever seen before.
- [65:14]
B
So as a. So I agree with you. Like, like when he, when it. And he's. Listen, he's. He. He's a. He can be a dominant offensive player, too, a lot of nights.
- [65:23]
A
Right.
- [65:24]
B
Really special in a lot of things he could do with his size. But there's no doubt when his name comes up, the first thing you tend to gravitate toward is the defense and defensive effect. And that's where the conversation starts. The reason I asked you that, and bring this point up when you start talking about MVP. I went back to 2000. There was only two other guys that I could come up with on that list. That and one of them, I'm not even sure it's even accurate in giannis, who in 20.
- [65:50]
A
19.
- [65:51]
B
20. Right. MVP, defensive player of the year. But I still think you thought about his dominance offensively first.
- [65:58]
A
How unique.
- [65:59]
B
How unique this force was with a guy that big and strong and fast. I always compared him to a center, a center coming at you with a head of steam and a live dribble. Like, that's the way he plays. He attacks like a center, moving like a much smaller player. So.
- [66:16]
A
But.
- [66:16]
B
So I always obviously dominate defensively too, but I always felt like, no, first we're going to talk about offense because this is so unique what this guy does. Let's go there and then we'll talk about the defense. The only other guy that I thought you can even consider is in this category that won an MVP where maybe the defense comes up first was Kevin Garnett. And Kevin Garnett was nine times first team, all defense. Okay, so. So, like, it was a real thing and so I would think, would you agree that with Garnett you would maybe go there, like, you just so known for that defensive intensity and maybe the best big man ball screen defender I've ever seen in terms of what he could do to disrupt ball screens at 7ft. His intensity, you know, damn good offensive player.
- [67:03]
A
Yeah, very good.
- [67:04]
B
Was, was the pendulum swung a little bit more toward the defense when his name came up. Because they're the only two guys that I could come up with since 2000 where it was even a conversation. And I'm not even sure some people might still say offense with both of those guys. With Wemby, I still think it's so predominantly defense comes up first. It's hard to win an MVP when that's the case. And so I just, I just put that to you. What, what are your thoughts on that now? Maybe he doesn't win it this year. We both think Shay is probably still the front runner. Maybe even Jokic is ahead of him. Maybe Wemby's third. You know, Cade's going to be in there somewhere. But I'm just so that like over the next two, three years, look, maybe his offense, maybe the guy averages 28 next year, maybe average is 30 next year. And now it's like, okay, it's not. It's a little bit more blurred. Offense, defense, like when you talk about him right now, it's clearly you're going to start talking about defense first. And so I'm really talking about more like mvp like this year in consideration, when you look at the history of the award, how hard that is to do when that's the first thing you're talking about for a guy because it's such an offense dominated award.
- [68:09]
A
So I care probably less about historical precedent than a lot of voters would because sometimes historical precedent is partially wrong and oftentimes it's just dumb and we shouldn't be beholden to it. Like I, it always bothered me there was this historical precedent that still exists to some degree that you can't be the MVP if you're not. If your team's not a one or two seed in, in your conference. I'm like, really? That's just not possible at all. And that's kind of gotten chipped away at. You know, Russ was not a top two three seed Denver one of the years Jokic won. So I'm not bothered by it as much. But, but your point it is, is good because Shai, to me shines as an example of his offensive impact. Is Stratospheric in a way that Wembanyama cannot yet really approach. And defensively, he's a very good defensive player. Shai's a stud on defense now. He's got a lot of guys around him who are studs, too, that can ease his responsibility a little bit. But he's helping your defense. You don't have to protect him. You don't have to do anything. You don't have to rotate and warp your defense because, oh, my God, Shay's in a bad matchup. Jokic defensively, to me, has slipped this season from a perch that wasn't all that high to begin with, but is so otherworldly dominant offensively. And even when he slips defensively. And he hasn't been as good this year and he hasn't been as engaged and attentive, and that's what it is. And his, his, his bad plays on defense are very glaring because of how sort of ground bound he looks. You still always have to remember he is maybe the single best defensive rebounder in the NBA. And that's a massive part of both their defense and their transition to offenses. He can get it and go. And so I just think both of those guys are in their own category to me. And Wemby becomes the MVP if he's eligible, and they're not because I do think he's still a very productive offensive player. And what he does on every possession defensively is just so. It's incalculable. Like, there was. There was a play last night. I don't know if you caught any of that Raptors game. It's kind of a fun game where you. Everyone sees the. The pump fake and I got to pass it out of here. Everyone sees the shot blocks that are getting more ridiculous by the night. There was a play last night. And by the way, he also talks a lot defensively. You can see him and hear him sometimes through the mics and on the court, directing traffic in very smart ways, like early, early telling people what's coming and what we're going to do as a result of what's coming. There was a play last night where RJ Barrett drove into the middle of the floor and it was kind of a scramble situation. They didn't. The spurs didn't really have time to get their help rotations in order, and he's got a little bit of inside traction and in, like, floater range. When Minyama is on Murray Boyles in the dunker spot right baseline, he steps into the paint to stop RJ Barrett. When I Tell you that Colin Murray Boyles was wide open. I mean he was like wide naked, ass open, no help, defender within 15ft of him, nothing there. It's a bounce pass for a dunk 95 times out of 100 and maybe a lob for a dunk 4 of the other times out of 100. Wemby just does this. Spreads his arms 45 degree angle as wide as they go. And RJ Barrett doesn't even think about the pass. He's like, it's wide open, nobody's around, the arms are everywhere. I can't make the pass. I'm going to take this contested floater and miss it. It was, it's just one of these little plays like pretty much unremarked upon by the broadcasters, like, oh, Barrett misses a floater, here comes the spurs the other way. It was a remarkable instance of defensive deterrence that probably no other player in the league is accomplishing. And there's like 15 of those every single game. So he would be my MVP ahead of that other group we talked about. And yes, I'm all in on the Spurses.
- [71:43]
B
I listen real quick. I think, I think there's. Listen, there's a really good chance that that happens if Shea. And look, Shea's got a lot of cushion here as far as games missed and it sounds like he's very close to playing. In fact, if you go in like pull up, you look at a website and click his name and it talks about prognosis, it actually has him like scheduled to play tomorrow night. Okay, but I didn't get the vibe that that was the case last night. So maybe it's early next week but, but I don't think he's going to be in danger. I think Shay gets in the games he needs and most likely will, will win back to back MVPs as a result. If there's some reason he can't and
- [72:22]
A
there was no hole in his case, there's no statistical hole. There's no on off numbers hole. There's no, well, defense hole. There is, it is an airtight. There's no team record hole. It's airtight across the board.
- [72:34]
B
I think what helps Wemby also in this discussion in terms of grabbing that real estate if it becomes available and something happens and Jokic and SGA aren't eligible is. Look, man, you said you don't necessarily think it matters as much like where you're seated. I agree with you. But what does matter is gap in terms of wins. And I think last year with these Two guys having these incredible years, Jokic and sga. I think that win gap between Oklahoma City and Denver was a determining factor for some of the people that voted.
- [73:11]
A
I didn't vote but it decided it for me. And I am like I think Jokic is the best player in the league. I'm being open about that. I think he was the best player in the league last year overall. But the numbers were close enough. Yeah, numbers were close enough across the board. Defense obviously edge to Shay that when you're talking about. I think it was a 16 win gap.
- [73:30]
B
16 games difference. Yeah.
- [73:32]
A
68 wins. I remember saying 68 wins just has to be respected. That's how many fucking wins that is. That's almost 70. Like at some point what like you just. He just gets the mvp. That's. He deserves it. And the wins are dispositive to me.
- [73:45]
B
And the reason I bring it up is because in this case, now this season, let's say for again sake argument, SGA and Jokic both don't get the threshold. They're not eligible. To me at that point it comes down. I think for me sounds like you might inject a couple other guys. I think it'd be Wemby and Cade would be the two guys. And here's why I bring it up. The spurs now are two games back of the Pistons for best in the loss column for best record in the NBA. If the San Antonio spurs were in second or third place in the west, but they were 10 games behind the Pistons, then then that's going to be a determining factor because of the gap. Even though there are two or three seed. It's because there's, well this team won that many more games and like you're kind of deciding, okay, well I guess then let's reward the winning if it's that much greater. But the fact is San Antonio is right there in the mix with OKC and now with Detroit. So if something funky happens with SGA and he doesn't qualify or Jokers doesn't qualify, I think Wemby now has closed. The spurs have closed that gap with the Pistons that now that maybe is not even a talking point anymore. And you're going to just look at this dude's defensive dominance and what the way he is affecting the game might be the thing that pushes him across the finish line in a head to head confrontation with, with Cade Cunningham. If that's what it comes down to. If both of those other guys aren't
- [75:11]
A
eligible, plus 14 and a half for 100 possessions with WEMBY on the floor even and actually minus 12 overall points for the season with Wemby on the bench. Okay, a couple more quick things. Did you see the Cavs Knicks game the other night?
- [75:26]
B
I saw. I only saw, like, the condensed version of the game. I didn't see the entire game.
- [75:30]
A
Any. Any takeaways?
- [75:33]
B
Well, look, if. Are you talking about specifically Harden?
- [75:36]
A
Any. Anything you want. But, yeah, Harden, you can go there.
- [75:39]
B
So. So here's the thing. When. When they made the trade, and it was, you know, look, there. There are people out there that are like James Harden detractors for a lot of different reasons. And you're saying, wow, is this. Is this the right move for the Cavs? I said it was worth the risk. And the reason I said that is because it's a good way to put it. There are plays to be made offensively that James Harden can make that suit the Cavs personnel that I don't think Darius Garland can. And I'm not knocking Darius Garland. I love Darius Garland's game. Big fan of his. It's a totally different style than what Harden does. Harden can just dominate you physically to an extent. And then, by the way, I mentioned a list of guys that can make all of the type of passes you need to make on the floor. I didn't mention him, and I should have, because Harden can, too. He could throw the pocket past the lob and the strong side or weak side kick out with velocity to shooters. Like, those are the four passes you have to make. He can make all of those as well. And I think their personnel suits his passing ability better. And the key for me is he's next to a guy that's going to have the vast majority of that responsibility to decide games offensively in Mitchell, because I don't want Harden to be in that spot where this guy has to get 30 for us to win tonight. I don't like Harden in that spot. I like him sliding over one chair or maybe two. Like where? Like, hey, I can do it sometimes, but we're not in a 2, 2 situation in game five. You don't have to get 30 to 35 out of me tonight to win this game, because that's how our offense operates. That's the only way we operate. Because he was on teams like that in Houston and it was like, now he had those nights where he got less aggressive or he didn't shoot well, and it's like, well, we don't know another way to play because there's not another guy that can do that they have Donovan Mitchell next to him but in the meantime the passes that he can make to their bigs rolling to the rim, how easy he can make the game for Mobley and Allen, how easy he can make the game for their stable of shooters that they've got and they've got a bunch of them like his ability to get the ball on a rope to those shooters when they have to have it to make their percentages have a slight incremental increase because they're slightly less contested because of how well he delivers the ball. That to me is why he is tailor suited for who's playing with him. And I think it was worth the risk to take with James Harden to make them a little bit more viable threat. Now look, he's got to play well for them in the postseason, the big spots and he's had some issues with that in his career. But the fact he's got Mitchell next to him to take some of the heavy lifting off his plate as a scorer. That's why I like him in this spot.
- [78:19]
A
Worth the risk is a great way to put it because there's always risk in trading up in age by 10 years when both the players are All Stars. Now Darius Garland is a two time all star and James Harden is like an 11 or 12 time all star. Different universes as players but young versus old. The reason it's worth the risk for them is like like they are young enough around James Harden to withstand bad injury luck this year to James Harden or whoever else because they have Mitchell, Allen, Mobley. Like I it's not a direct comparison by any means but like the Mavs traded up in age significantly. Luka versus ad. The trade was dumb on a million different levels but one of them was you got real old real fast and you had no window to sustain any margin for injury or anything like that. The Cavs do that Cavs Knicks game. I'm going to read that that game felt like an important game to me because the Cavs have needed a win against the Knicks who ate their lunch in the postseason and have had their number a little bit in the regular season. And they did some things in that game that you could see the Knicks being like okay, this is interesting. Like they none of it is unprecedented but they executed it really well. They put Dean Wade on Brunson, they put Mobley on Cat and Jared Allen on Josh Hart. They switched a lot on Brunson pick and rolls and they were able to do that with Wade and Mobley because both of those guys can Guard either player, more or less. They even did it with Jared Allen some. And you could see the Knicks be like, on offense. All right, Garland's not here. That was our sort of target every time. On offense. Let's try James Harden. And they hunted James Harden a little bit, and Jalen Brunson would beat him off the dribble and kick out for three. Like they. But they were still feeling out this new universe. And it just felt. It felt like an important game for Cleveland and a little bit of, like, a proof of concept for the team. Last thing, I'm. I'm assigning every guest that comes on from now till the end of the season, and I'm doing the assignment myself to say one nice thing about a tanking team. And it could be anything. It could be their uniforms, their broadcasters, this player, the coach looks nice in the sweatsuit. Whatever you want. We got to get a sponsor for this assignment. It can't be a military sponsor. I don't want a tank company or a military contractor. Like, we got to get, like, someone's duct tape or something, like, to sponsor the tank segment. So, Tim Leglers, what's your nice thing about a tanking team?
- [80:39]
B
Well, it's interesting. I'm going to pick a team, and you got a little bit outside the box with some of the other stuff. The uniforms, the hats, entertainment. The hot dogs are better in the media room.
- [80:51]
A
It's a great one. I'm going to Brooklyn tonight. This could be my thing for next week. We'll see what the food is.
- [80:56]
B
By the way, I made a massive mistake last night, apparently. Okay, so I'm here in Detroit and Little Caesars arena, and we go over to the game. And I did call one game there last year in the playoffs against the Knicks. But again, I didn't go into the media room to eat. I made the mistake of eating at the hotel, like, kind of close to when I had to leave for the game. And I just wasn't hungry when I got over there. I did it again yesterday, not thinking, because this is the second time this has happened to me. I'm getting told by, like, all these different people, espn, that are there to cover the game. That's the best media dining room in not only the NBA in all of professional sports. And I'm like, what? I missed it again? So I'm here. I'm staying in Detroit today. I've got another game tomorrow night against the Cavs, and I am going to not eat beyond breakfast. So I go over to the arena, incredibly hungry. And they've even insisted that Little Caesar's pizza that is served in immediate dining room is way better than the Little Caesar's pizza you can get if you go into Little Caesars. I don't know how that is or why that is, but I had multiple people tell me that last night. Anyway, I'm going to hit that tomorrow night. But that's not going there because you said a tanking team, that's who we have to compliment. I'm going with the Brooklyn Nets, and here's what I'm going to say about them. You look at like their draft is a little bit controversial. They kept all those picks, they drafted all those guys and you're like, okay, well, who. Who can play? And Jagor Gemmin was the highest pick. I really like Nolan Traore and I think they got a player in Traore and he is starting to play more and more and he's playing better and better. And I think they found a guy that could end up being a steal with that pick. They got a really nice player. Keep your eye on him. They're not, you know, they're not playing important games, obviously important possessions, but he's getting more experience to play where you get a better sample size of him. Really like his game. And I like the pick because they got criticized quite a bit for keeping all of those picks last year, taking five guys in the first round and none of whom anybody goes, wow, that's an absolute guaranteed franchise changer. So they got some criticism for that. And I think Traore is a guy that got right. I like his game.
- [83:05]
A
I'm laughing because this is really incredible. There are nine teams in various stages of tanking right now. Now that the Bulls, who have lost 10 straight games, just off the radar over here. The Bulls are like, we're just pulling the ripcord. We stink. It's a little too late for us to pull the rip card, but we're pulling it nonetheless. And they've lost 10 in a row. There are nine teams tanking. You're the second guest that I've done this segment with. And both of you pick not only the Nets, but pick Troy or specifically as your good side on a tanking team. Mine last week, last episode was Jerris Walker. I'm going Gigi Jackson Jr. For the Memphis Grizzlies. All you want to learn as a tanking team that has aspirations to be good next year is, is someone going to show me something that carries over onto a good team? What an up and down Career Gigi Jackson has had some early scoring bursts, is like the youngest player in the league. So exciting. The size, the athleticism too. He's just so unready. We can't play him to. He disappears to the G League for the hustle for a while. Now he's back. No one is standing in his way to get minutes. The guy is scoring like gangbusters, but it's the way he's doing it that is interesting to me. He's a good screen setter who can catch it in the short roll and make plays. He scores off cuts. They run some ball screen action for him where he comes off the Iverson cut and catches and goes from there. Decent spot up, three point shooter, decent passer. He had a couple bully ball post ups and I can't believe I'm saying this. I watched the Kings Grizzlies game the other night because there was nothing else on. I was like, all right, I'm going to eat some vegetables to watch this game. He had a couple bully ball plays in that game. I'm just saying if you're a Grizzlies fan and you've been intrigued by like this sort of the, the, the, the, the outline of, of excitement that is Gigi Jackson Jr. You are seeing in these meaningless games everything you'd want to see to have him be part of the next actual Grizzlies team. So that's nice. Things about tanking teams sponsor TBD Tim Legler look now, now I'm really obsessed with your eating habits for tomorrow. Are you going to have to discipline to pull like no lunch to me? Amy Schumer, I think once had a bit about she has friends who are like, ooh, I forgot to eat lunch today. She's like, that's literally never happened to me. I've never forgotten to eat any meal. I'm like that. I've never like people say, oh man, time for lunch today. I can't. If I skip lunch, I will murder somebody in cold blood by 4pm so if you can do it, my, my only advice after that would be you can't. And I've done this a couple of times and I learned you can't overeat pregame and put yourself in a food coma for the game. You got to be disciplined with your pregame eating.
- [85:40]
B
I got a, I got, I got it all laid out. I actually wrote it out on paper. My strategy for tomorrow. So lunch is my favorite meal of the day by the way. Like a lot of people say, oh, breakfast, breakfast, give Me a piece of fruit. I'm good till noon.
- [85:54]
A
My body's not ready for great food for the first two hours I'm up. I'm not a breakfast.
- [86:00]
B
So you're kind of like me. I'm the same way. I just don't need it. Like here we are with sitting here now. I have not put one bite of food into my stomach yet today. I like lunch. I really look forward to lunch. But here's what I'm going to do tomorrow. So either be, it'll either be lunch food right when the restaurant starts serving lunch in the hotel like 11am or it'll be breakfast, one or the other. Then I'm not eating again. We go over to the arena, the game, I believe Tomorrow night's probably 7 or 7:30. We'll get over there, you know, around 5ish. And that is. So it'll be like still two hours before the game. And I'm going right to the media room and I'm going to see what all this talk is about and I'm going to dive in and I will give you my full report on that. But I've got it really laid out well strategized. I don't think I'm going to mess that up. By the way. I am a person if I get really involved in a task. And I just went through this because we moved. Our family moved from one house to another only 30 minutes away. But it was like a five day process. Basically my all star break was moving. Instead of a vacation, I moved. If I'm super, like, let's go. And I did it myself with some friends. I'm not an entire moving company. I like doing it. I don't like other people coming in and moving stuff. I'm sitting on the sofa watching you move heavy stuff out of my house. I want to do it myself. I did it. I can go 9, 10, 12, 15 hours and realize, man, I never ate and it's like 7 o' clock at night. So I am a person that can get so dialed into what I'm doing or concentrating on that I will forget that I didn't eat.
- [87:28]
A
No, I'm, I'm, I'm the opposite. I like if I'm going to a shoot around on the finals on an off day and I know it's going to be like from 11 to 2pm I got to have a Clif Bar or something toxic probably in my, in my to go bag so that I have something to feed myself with. All right, Tim Legler. So we Got Detroit, Cleveland on Thursday on ESPN or no on Saturday, Friday from losing track of it. The snow days have messed with my entire calendar. Like we've had so many snow days, I don't know what the hell day it is on espn. What do you got anything coming up
- [88:01]
B
after that the next day? So I got back to back. So I gotta fly out the next morning to San Francisco for Lakers warriors on ABC Saturday night. So I've got back to back games. First I'm looking for, I hope, I'm really hoping James Harden plays in this game against the Pistons. I want to see what that looks like. I think they're still probably trying to figure out what they're going to do with him, but hopefully he plays and we get, we get feed into a really hard fought physical game. Two teams that are really relevant in the east and then Lakers warriors. And obviously that's got a different feel because you know Steph is out. So that, that feels different. But it's still Lakers Warriors. And that'll be Saturday night. ABC Primetime.
- [88:40]
A
Yeah. Ken Reaves, LeBron and Luka together take down GI Santos. We will all be watching Tim Legler. The very best in the business. It's been awesome to watch on the big national games. There you are, breaking everything down in real time. You're the best. Thank you, sir.
- [88:55]
B
You got it.
- [88:56]
A
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Tap the banner to learn more. All right, we got a treat. Dwyane Wade, a legend, a Hall of Famer, Miami Heat icon, NBA champion, Finals mvp. The whole deal is here. Dwyane Wade, how you doing, man?
- [90:05]
C
I'm doing great, man. It's nothing like hearing an introduction of who you used to be. It's great well, I'll tell you people
- [90:13]
A
who you are right now. You have a podcast content network, the Y Network. You're sitting in front of the graphic right now. You are my teammate on Amazon prime, although you are a much bigger part. You are Dwayne Wade on Amazon Prime. I am Norris Cole. Maybe I'm jumping in every now and then to swing a game, but I'm not a starter.
- [90:32]
C
Well, there you go. Norris Cole would come off the bench and swing games for us as a rookie, so he got two championships. So, I mean, that's a great role.
- [90:41]
A
Now you never know how people are going to do the transition into media, particularly like the best, best, best players. Are they ready to put in the work? Are they going to care about it as much as they think they are? I am. You're, like, really good at this right off the bat. It's awesome to be on TV with you. I see the prep. You got notebooks. You're taking notes. Like, I ran into you in the green room at MSG the other day before. What was it? Nick's pistons, I think. And you were like, all business. There was not gonna be a lot of small talk. Are you liking this and what's different about it maybe than you expected?
- [91:16]
C
I do like it. I think the cool thing about just the time that we in Zach is you can show up in media so many different ways now, and I'm doing that, which is just like a lot of other people, but having the opportunity to be on network, to be on Amazon with the team that, you know, was put together. Shout out to Amina and shout out to Jared for putting together an amazing team. I said, you guys may be GMs in the future because I think they did that. But I think you have that feeling sometime of being back around the guys being back around the game. And I don't have that a lot in my life. I don't play basketball. A lot of I go to games, whether it's NBA, high school, whatever, but I'm not really connected to it like that. Right. And so these are the moments that connects me to the game. And I'm just trying to, like, bring my best self. And I'm trying to learn because it's not easy to do in game and in studio. They are two different things. And so you have to learn two different ways of speaking the game and talking the game and educating the game. And so I'm just trying to bring, like, my own personality to it and knowing that you know my brand and how I. How I think and how I see things is going to be different than a man to my left or my right. But how do we play together as a team? And I'm trying to learn that. And so I'm enjoying it. And to go to Madison Square Garden to sit there with. I sit there with Stan Van, my coach, and be able to call a game in Madison Square. Like, I was like, inside I was super excited, but on the outside, I was like, hey, you haven't done this in a few weeks. You're going against two guys. That is a world oil machine. You have to be prepared. You have to be ready. Because if not, they will have a conversation without you in it. So that's why I was focused.
- [92:59]
A
So I've been asked a bunch of times, like, why don't you ever. Back when I was at espn, why don't they put you on games and call a game? I'm like, cause I don't know how to do it. It's a completely different skill. And it's so fast, the action is so fast that talking over it is really hard. You need a lot of reps to get good at that. But then you plop Ian Eagle, I mean, legend Stan has been doing it now for a while. He was your coach for a while. But it's not easy to do.
- [93:28]
C
It's not easy to do, and it takes some time. Like, you know, I've been able to work with Candace and Kevin Harlan here in la. Michael Grady as well. I've worked with him and then Cassie and Allie. Just the whole team. But it takes everybody. I don't think people understand the prep that goes into it. If you really want to be good at your job, you have to prep and understand that. I'm not a guy who. I don't know what your schedule is, Zach, but I have like 17,000 jobs and so many things to do, so I'm not watching every game. And so I have to do so much prep work. I gotta go back five, 10 games to see what's going on with this player. What's these techniques? What's these tendencies? Like, I gotta really do prep work. And then when you get out there, how do you take that prep work? And how do you play with the other voices and the other minds and make it seem like a seamless broadcast, right? Where you're not getting in the way. You're just, you know, an additive. And so it's not easy. It's not easy at all. But, you know, when you're working with people who are great and they value. They value your opinion. It allows for you to feel comfortable expressing your opinion. And when you're doing. When you're doing the game, it's in real time. And so I may say something that later on, I may go back and listen to and cringe because I'm like, I didn't even. It's unedited. You don't get a chance to write down everything you say. And so, you know, it's a lot of grammar mistakes. It's a lot of.
- [94:45]
A
You're rewatching your own stuff.
- [94:48]
C
Yeah, I'm rewatching film. You know, one of the things, Zach, that I learned when I first retired, it was from Michael Strahan, right? I just. I said I was. I was doing the show, and I was like, mike, like, how do you do it? Like, how do you go from, you know, being great at this sport and immediately be great as a media personality? And, you know, one thing he told me, he said, as athletes, we know how to prepare. You know, we've been breaking down film. We've been watching film our entire life. You take those same principles and you bring it to this job. And so one thing, you will be. You will be ready, and you will be prepared. And then from there, you have to allow your personality and, you know, your partner and all these, you know, elements bring it to life. But preparation is key. And so, Zach, not only do I watch the games of myself, I watch the games of when I'm not in studio. What is Blake? What is Steve? What is ud? What is. What's that energy like? Because I gotta slide in there after a few weeks of not being there. So I wanna make sure that I understand what those guys. Cause I'm watching them grow, and I wanna know how to be a better teammate. So I'm always watching film, just like I did as a basketball player in this space, because I wanna be better. I have to listen to myself. I have to listen to my grammar mistakes. I have to listen to these moments where I'm like, ah, I needed to get out of that sentence. And I didn't know how. And I just ended it on a dud. But how do I get out of that in 10, 15 seconds? And so it's a lot of things to learn, you know, if you want to be good and taken serious, you know, on the side.
- [96:10]
A
So I noticed in the list of people that you're watching in studio on your off nights, you left off Dirk Nowitzki. And I'm going to assume that that was intentional and that the rivalry still runs deep. If I told 2011 Dwyane Wade that you and Dirk Nowitzki would be teammates in a different arena 15 years later, what would you have said?
- [96:31]
C
I would have believed you. I never had nothing against Dirk. You know, like, nothing serious. Nothing for real. We never had anything, really. It was, you know, some. Some things as a young player that was taken a certain way in 06, but we played against each other in the finals, and so you understand that. And then 11, we had another moment that I was famously a part of.
- [96:50]
A
But hold on, hold on. We're not gonna. Yada, yada, yada. Which moment are you talking about?
- [96:57]
C
Talking about the cough gate.
- [96:58]
A
Okay. I was gonna get into Kofgate.
- [97:01]
C
You guys have hashed it out.
- [97:02]
A
You guys have hashed it out, right?
- [97:04]
C
Well, we're adults now and we have talked about it. I had him on my show, actually, my first podcast. Dirk was on there, and we addressed it right there on the show for the first time out of 20 years. Have a conversation, man. We've been in this. Dirk and I retired. I mean, we went into the hall of Fame at the same time. We retired at the same time. Our careers are forever linked. You know, he's won against me in the finals, I've won against him in the finals. So we will forever be linked. And we just put our big boy pants on, had a conversation, and we just really, really moved on from that. And it's really cool now that we are on this side. Um, but we still got that, you know, it's still going to be that. That. That inner competition between two guys who played together in the finals and was trying to, you know, trying to win one for their respective teams and themselves. So that's always going to be there, but, man, it's all love. I love dirt.
- [97:49]
A
He didn't like the coughing. I gotta tell you, I think there was some. I think there was.
- [97:52]
C
I didn't like it.
- [97:52]
A
I think there was some real tension there. So that's your. We're gonna do a little Dwayne Wade memory lane. Cause your career, like, your career kind of coincides with the start of my career. So I've watched a lot of your moments in person and from afar and never got to ask you about him. So we're gonna start with that finals. And let me zoom way out. LeBron signs with the Heat. And you guys have the infamous. Not one, not two, not three. And it's LeBron saying it the whole time. Did you know at. When did you. Were you surprised the Degree to which you guys became the villains of the NBA. Did you expect that, or were you surprised by the vitriol that emerged?
- [98:31]
C
Yeah, I mean, the level that we were victims of the league, we didn't expect that. I think we understood that some people wouldn't like it, but we had never really experienced nothing like that in sports, not to that level, not in basketball, and especially not individually. I think we were all individually loved. CB was loved in Toronto. I was loved in Miami. LeBron was loved in Cleveland. And we were always loved in the basketball community because of our talents. And so, no, we didn't see that. We didn't see. Like, that was the first year where I actually physically saw hate in someone's eyes and in their body language towards myself, towards people I love. I've heard about it. My ancestors have lived it. I have people who told me about experiencing hate. I just never experienced it. And that was the first year that I did. So it was an ugly year of basketball for us, and we didn't do. We played right into it. We played into the villain role because it was like, all right, well, this is how y' all see it.
- [99:30]
A
That's what I always think about.
- [99:31]
C
Watch us do it.
- [99:31]
A
When I see the koffing, that's what I always think of. I think, like, you guys are almost like, all right, you guys don't like us. Like, we're. Watch us. Watch us be really. Watch us be really unlikable. We're gonna lean into this.
- [99:45]
C
I mean, we did lean into being, you know, those guys. I mean, even, you know, the things that people would say to us in arena was, it's not nothing that kids should listen to, right? And, you know, you try to block it out as much as possible, but we had some back and forth with fans, you know, courtside or in the stands, because, you know, some of them hit some buttons, and some of them is challenging you. Challenging your ego, your pride, your manhood, or just being disrespectful. And so we definitely jumped into it. You know, we knew also at the same time that every arena was sold out because of us. Like, y' all here to actually see us. Because we was watching the game on Tuesday and you wasn't sitting in those seats. Like we were. We was hitting back. Like we was. We were. We were hitting blows back. But, you know, that moment with Dirk was. And I said it before, it was childish. It was a childish moment that was caught on tape. And it was really a moment of us, you know, saying to the cameras, like, oh, stop giving them excuses. You know what I mean? And it was like, oh, it's another excuse. Oh, he's now sick. Like, everyone is dealing with something. But the way it came out, it became some bulletin board, you know, info for the team and for Dirk. And you don't want to give a team nothing extra. You're already in the finals, and they already a very good team. And we did. We gave Dirk something extra, and we gave that team something extra and just added a little more juice to the series.
- [101:06]
A
All right, You've surely been asked about this, but I don't remember the exact answer. And we're teammates now, so you gotta be. We gotta be. Lay all the cards on the table. You and cb, CB signs in Miami. You guys tweet the night before the decision a photo of you having dinner, and the caption is like, hey, we got room for one more, or something like that. When did you actually know that LeBron was coming to Miami?
- [101:34]
C
I've said this before, so this is not like breaking news.
- [101:37]
A
We're going to edit that out so that it sounds like breaking news.
- [101:40]
C
Your platform is probably bigger. That's the thing. First of all, I don't remember the timeline. I remember the picture, but I don't know if it came before. I don't know when it came. But we also, too, was playing some. We were playing into the media hype of it all, too. We knew that everybody had eyes on this free agency, and so we played into it. But famously, as we talked about, all three of us had a conversation very early in this process, as we were getting into the free agency, conversations of, you know, what we wanted to do. But in the midst of that, even though we all talked about playing together and hopefully picking a location, can it be in New York? Can it be in Chicago? Can it be in Miami? We still all went through our individual process because you don't know. You don't know what's going to happen. And so I feel like it wasn't really real until I actually heard the words from LeBron's mouth sitting in front of Jim Gray. I did not know. Like I famously say, he went dark, dark 30 on me for a few days, you know, once we were leading up to time to make decisions, because I'm sure it was a very tough decision for my guy to make, but I was all in because I didn't have to go anywhere. You know what I mean? And so we played into it. We played into the drama, but I did not know until LeBron said, I'm taking my talents to South Beach. And it took me a couple seconds to even think about what south beach, what he. What he was even referring to, because we didn't call. We didn't call Boyd County south beach at that time. You know what I mean? And so. But I didn't know. But we had conversations leading up to it where, hey, we would love to be able to do this. And it took a lot. It took the heat to be able to do something that other teams could not do, and that's created enough space to be able to bring three max players in. And I think we were all at a point where we realized, well, listen, we couldn't beat Boston. We don't know if we could beat the Lakers, but we tried it individually and Boston was just beating us up. They were the big brothers with Ray Allen, with kg, with Paul Pierce, with Rondo. We can't compete with that. And Tony Allen and so forth and so on. Right? And so we had to like, hey, Avengers, what's up? And we made our call so we can compete. Blame it on Boston. No, don't blame it on us. Blame it on Boston for being the big brothers and beating everybody up.
- [104:01]
A
Hey, man, it was good for the league. It was great theater every single night. Now this is back in the news because of. Chris made some comments recently. When did you know lebron was leaving for Cleveland?
- [104:18]
C
When did I know or when did I have an inkling of when did.
- [104:20]
A
Well, either one. Either one. Both, I guess.
- [104:24]
C
I personally, I didn't. So I didn't know until he told me. Right. And I talk about it. We had a conversation on the outside of a. Of a plane when we landed back in Miami.
- [104:33]
A
At his camp or something or. No, at your camp. Right.
- [104:35]
C
That was after we left his camp in Vegas. We were in Vegas. He had a camp in Vegas. We were just the guys hanging out in Vegas. We flew back to Miami and that's when I heard from him. That was the night before the next day when the article came out. But when I first felt it for real. For real was in Vegas. I felt it in Vegas. And I actually had a meeting with Riley because I was a free agent. Right. I opted out. CB opted out because we were banking on the retooling of, okay, all chips back in. Let's opt out. Let's see how we can get better. Our goal is to win championships. And I remember asking Riley, and the reason I asked Riley that when we were in a meeting was because I was around Bron and I could Just tell that he was dealing with something. And it seemed heavy. And I knew because we were really good friends. I could tell just by even the look in my eyes or not look at my eyes. I knew it was something going on. And I was like, oh, man. I think he's thinking about going back to Cleveland. Because we start hearing the rumors, and there's always a little truth to what you hear. And I remember asking Rals in the room, I was like, what if LeBron, what if he leaves? Like, what if he does not come back? Like, what are we going to do? And Rouse was just convinced that he was coming back. He didn't even want to think about that. His whole thing was, no, we're going to retool. We're San Antonio spurs in this thing. We're Mono Ginobili, Tim Duncan, Tony Parker. That's who you guys are. We're going to keep building around. And then he left.
- [106:04]
A
There's so much focus on LeBron coming. LeBron going. The 2011 finals against the Mavs, you guys won two titles and made four straight finals. Two very difficult things to do. Consecutive titles. And I think the most famous moment is probably the Ray Allen shot in game six. And that's always told from the spurs perspective, how it was such a gut punch and how they tried to regroup and all of this. But when you all get together in 20 years, when you're all having a beer or a glass of wine or whatever together, what are some of the things you guys remember from those four years together?
- [106:39]
C
Yeah, you know, it's crazy that it was only four years together. Like, I was just thinking about this the other day. LeBron's been in LA way longer than we played together, and it's still. There's still a story, right? Those four years out of his entire career is a blimp, but it's a big story that still goes on. I think the thing that you remember, man, with that team, we were such a grown team. Like, we wasn't a team that was happy to be there. We was a team that was assembled to win championships, compete for championships, and it was a lot of stress in that, right? Like, we. We put the weight on ourselves, too.
- [107:11]
A
Right?
- [107:12]
C
And it was a lot of expectations. And so it's not the fun. We, like, we're not going, like, 06. We get together, we talk about the fun we had because we wind up winning in the midst of still being the team that probably shouldn't have won, because we wasn't really. We weren't Doing all the things that a championship team, you know, supposed to do to win one. We just. We got hot. We got. We linked at the right time, we clicked at the right time. In 2010 through 2014, we were put together to be a championship team. That mean everything we did was with that in mind. And so I think the things that we're going to remember is the work and the work that was put in to accomplish everything that we did. None of it was by mistake. Reality. Hitting that shot was not by mistake. We all watched him do it in practice, over and over and over. He did a drill where he would be on his butt, he'd get up, and he'd backpedal at the end to get to that line. So we were confident when we saw Ray Allen backpedal to the line, because we've all seen it that play, the plays that we ran at the end. We've never really ran that throughout the season, but we ran it every day after practice and after shoot around. So when we needed it, it was there. It was fresh in our mind. And we used it one set at the end, something we'd never used before. And everyone knew where to go. And so I would think about the professionalism of the team, I think about the hall of Famers on our team, guys who came together for one common goal and did our best to accomplish it as much as we could. And we got there four years straight. Those are the things and the stories that we're going to talk about, like the actual work that was put in. And then watching the results.
- [108:40]
A
You mentioned 2006, and you guys just had your 20 year reunion in Miami, the 20th anniversary of that title team. What did you mean when you said we weren't doing all the things we're supposed to be doing to win championships. What did you mean by that?
- [108:51]
C
Man, we was out in the streets, we were hanging. We were partying. Like it's. No, we talk about it, man. We had guys six, seven, you know, coming in in the morning. We was living in Miami, like the same thing the visitors were doing. That's what guys on our team was doing. We had guys who love to. Love to hang out and they talk about it. I just had them on my show and we're gonna release it. But Antoine Walker talks about it like they was coming in five, six in the morning, seven. Shaq had to go in and be like, ralphs, can you push practice back? Guys is hanging, you know what I mean? And I think guys knew we were good, but we didn't come into the year knowing that we could win a championship. We knew we had talent. We knew that expectations were there, but it wasn't a team that was so strict to. This is how. If you come into a year, this is the thing. These are the things you supposed to do to win a championship. We didn't do that away from the court. And so that wasn't a team that I looked at and was like, oh, yeah, we're gonna win. Like, we just so happened to start clicking at the right time. We started developing, like, these relationships that was developed in the club and out in Miami and hanging out and all that. It started taking place on the court as you saw the trust starting being built. So Oz was kind of reverse engineered in a sense. Like, we built our continuity and our connection. Hanging out. A lot of people don't build it out, like, hanging out that way. Like, you know, bus rides, airplanes, dinners. We were building it, you know, to the window, to the wall. Like, we were. We were hanging. Right?
- [110:18]
A
This is a new team building strategy. I think someone should emulate this. Like, let's get it. Let's get a bunch of.
- [110:23]
C
I don't know.
- [110:24]
A
All right.
- [110:24]
C
I don't know. That was. Listen, it was a part of, hey, this is what we're going to do, then this is how we got to do it. Like, Shaq as a leader, you know, Shaq was. He was in, like, same thing, right? We always, like, enjoying being in my. Like, Miami was on fire. Y' all gotta understand, like, we turned Miami into a whole different culture once we started winning. And so, you know, we were the Heatles. We were the first set of the heels in Miami and on the road. And we had guys who wanted to enjoy that. You know what I mean? And so we had to learn how to manage guys enjoying that, but also to getting the work done on the court. And so masterfully, we end up doing it. But if you go back and look at it, you would be like, no, that team is not gonna win a championship because they're not. They're unserious. It seemed like an unserious group away from the game. But when we got on the court, man, we were about business, and we had a lot of veteran guys that could turn it on and knew how to turn it on. And I got really good.
- [111:19]
A
You sure did. We're going to talk about some of the moments from that series, but at the 20th anniversary thing, Gary Payton told a story about Now I'll spare. You can tell some of the details if you want What'd he say about going to Pat? It was sometime during the playoffs, after a loss or something, going to Pat and saying, hey, we gotta make it clear to Shaq, like, this is Dwayne's team, and we all gotta just let him lead us, and we'll get ours around Dwayne, but it's Dwayne's team. And I remember. I wonder if, A, you remember either hearing that or hearing that Gary had done that, and then, B, five years later, after losing the 2011 finals, you yourself have a similar conversation with LeBron about, like, hey, you just be you. Like, enough of this. Whose team is it? Whatever. Like, we're going to fit in around you. And did you think back to the Gary Payton, Shaq thing when you were having that conversation with LeBron five years later?
- [112:17]
C
I did not think back to that moment, but I had already experienced it. And so I knew what it looked like, you know, like, I knew what it looks like when you have a star player who has to take a different seat. Not a backseat. You just gotta take a different seat. And Shaq did it. I watched Shaq did. When he came in from la, he immediately put himself in a different seat. And he didn't try to be the lead dog, but even in that, it was moments where he still wanted to be, give me the ball, give me the ball. And then I did remember the time when my team went to him and was like, hey, gotta be young fella. He gotta be the one to take us. And I remember the conversation then Shaq had with me after that. And so think about it. I'm 24 years old, and I got Gary Payton, hall of Famer Shaquille o', Neal, hall of Famer Lonzo Morning, hall of Famer Antoine Walker, Jason Williams. Like, all these guys looking at me like, all right, young fella, you the one. Like, let's go do your thing, and we're going to back you up. Like, the freedom that they gave me. Because what you do in that position is you overthink a lot, Zach. When you have guys that you know you need to get the ball to, you kind of, you don't play your full game, you kind of be hesitant. And I was a little hesitant because I had so many guys that I respected as a young guy, and I wanted to make sure that they were all a part of it. And they looked at me like, stop respecting us so much. Go do it. Like, go be you. And it just unlocked it. And so I guess what I did, when it came to Lebron and him and I conversation. I know I want to take all the credit. Obviously, he's one of the greatest to ever play, but I just want to unlock, you know, his thought process, because I saw a little hesitation from him the year before, and we were really good. If you go back, I averaged 25 and a half, he averaged 26. Numbers were kind of equal in a lot of areas, and we were really dynamic, like the best duel in the league. But we didn't get together to be the best duel in the league. We got together to be champions. And so how do we unlock that? And this is how to unlock it. We have to let the best player in the game be the best player in the game. And he has to take all the thought out. And so I put myself in kind of a role that Shaq did or that GP and them did at that time, to say, this is the best. This is our best way, this is our best opportunity to win. It's this guy leading us. So let's get out the way, let's talk our egos and let's do what we gotta do to make sure that this guy can lead us.
- [114:26]
A
Now, I went back and I watched some clips and some highlights from the 2006 finals before this interview because I wanted to remind myself of the full rotations, who's on what. And I always. I tell people all the time, and it's most recently come up with Chris Paul. I always tell people, particularly younger fans, go down a YouTube rabbit hole of this guy when he was young, because you're going to be shocked at just how athletic and fast he was. And I'm telling you, like watching 2006, Dwyane Wade even, versus, like 2013, 14, Dwyane Wade is like, oh, my God, there is nothing you can do with this guy. So I'm watching the end of game five, which is two, two series goes to overtime. Dirk, by the way, for a guy who had a reputation unearned, undeserved, as someone who shied from the moment, made like four massive shots in that game to either tie it or put them ahead. So we're in overtime. You're down by one with like nine seconds left. Dirk has just put the Mavs up one, I think, inbound to you. Dallas doubles you at half court, and I think you drive to the right sideline, Devin Harris falls over, and they don't stop doubling you. They just bring, like another guy to double you again. And you're in the. In the. In the right side of the floor. And it's very clear, like, you're not passing the ball. You can get by four or five defenders, whatever. You get fouled on, like, a scoop shot that misses. So you're. You're at the foul. I had forgotten about this. You're at the foul line, down one with like three and a half seconds left of game five of a two. Two finals, like in overtime, you could not shoot bigger free throws than this unless it was game seven, basically. What. And you knock them both down like nothing. But do you remember those free throws? And did you do anything differently to just calm yourself in that moment? Because those are the shots. Like, those are driveway shots. Those are driveway free throws, right?
- [116:13]
C
Yeah. Well, first of all, going back to that play, I remember it like it was yesterday. I was not passing that ball. You could tell it was just no way. Yeah, it was no way. Sometimes you'd be like, if we gonna lose, then we gonna lose with the ball in my hand. Right. And so I was determined to get to the basket on that. And yeah, and I was using. I was using all my breaks. All I needed was a little hole. And once I got it, I attacked the basket and I'm getting fouled. But here's the thing about those free throws. Biggest free throws in my life. I know because I watched the game of basketball. I know that certain. That big games and certain games are going to come down to free throws. And it doesn't matter what you do throughout the game, that is, is that you become a hero in. Right. But if you don't make these free throws, it doesn't matter. And so no matter what I've done my entire life, it goes back to. To high school, but it definitely goes back to Marquette. We will come in the gym on days, nights before the game, and Coach Cream will make us shoot free throws for an hour. And we could not speak, we could not talk or anything, right? Because it was embedded in me at a very young age that all games and big games will come down to this. And so I've had so much practice on calming myself down, quieting my mind, putting myself into game space, but also taking myself out of the moment. And so one of the stories I tell is the night before those games, I was always in the arena late. I was always in there about midnight to 1 in the morning because I couldn't sleep. My anxiety was obviously through the roof. And the night before, I would have my cousin come and be in my ear. He was there rebounding for me. And I would just tell him to say, the worst things he can possibly think of right in my ear make me as uncomfortable as you possibly can. Because if I get into these games, I'm going to be uncomfortable. And the night before, my cousin is saying all these things about me and I'm just 50 in a row. I'm just knocking them down. So when I go to the free throw line, what I do is I take myself out of the moment and I put myself back in. Watching myself do something over and over and over again. I just saw myself the night before hit hundreds of free throws because that's all I was doing. Because I knew at some point I was going to have to make big free throws. And when I went to the line, I didn't think about nothing. But the night before, like I kind of smiled to myself because I was like, I just practiced this. I just got prepared for this. And here is my moment. And so you want to step up. And I think all my teammates had confidence. I remember behind me Jason, Jason Terry was having a conversation with GP because Jason Terry was trying to talk and get in my head, right? He trying to get me to miss these free throws. And I remember hearing GP be like, yo, my young fella is built for these moments. He's not missing these. That confidence. I heard that before I went and shot. I'm like, my teammates believe in me as a young guy. And so I'm about to step up here and make these. Cause I just saw myself do it. And I've been practicing and preparing for this moment for so many years. Well, here it goes. Show me what you got.
- [119:14]
A
So you kind of say semi facetiously that the team was not doing what it would normally take to win a championship. But that said, you had gone through the kind of progressions that teams typically go through to get a championship. So the year before you're in the conference finals Against Detroit in 2005, we talk a lot about player injuries and who's injury prone and who can play through pain and who can't. You missed game six of that series, the conference finals, with a pulled or strained or something rib muscle. Then you played game seven and you were not yourself. And it comes out afterwards that you took some sort of pain killing shot right in your chest. So I think people need to understand what athletes in some cases actually do to go out there and play. So what was the shot and how did it make you feel? And how did you feel playing that game?
- [120:06]
C
Yeah, I talking about the worst time to get injuries. I actually got injured in game five. And we beat them pretty handily in game five at home. And all I did is came down on the left side, just hit him with a right to left crossover, hit the jumper. I think we up 20 and I just feel like this pull right under my ribs. And next thing you know, it got worse and worse and worse and worse. And next thing you know, I can't even move. I can't lift my arms up, I can't barely breathe. And so I can't play game six. Even though I try, I cannot go out there and do it. And then game seven, I'm still in a lot of pain. And they just hit me with like a Toradol shot, just something to ease the pain right before I went out there and played because leading up to that, I still didn't think I could play because I didn't want to hurt my team even more. Because, you know, I'm a dynamic player. I'm a get downhill player. I can't get downhill, I can't use my body because. And I'm in this pain. So I just took a little shot right there in that area to kind of like ease the pain. Even though I went out there and I wasn't 100%, I was able to give whatever I could to my team and give us a chance to win game seven at home in my second year. But yeah, that injury sucked because I felt that we were in position to beat Detroit that year. And I thought at that time it was going to be a great matchup versus the spurs with us because once again I felt I had the advantage. Even though I thought Bruce Bourne was a really good defender, I didn't think he can defend me, right. And I was like, oh, we got an advantage in that case. So I was like, let's go Spurs. Now didn't know was young. They probably would have whipped us.
- [121:39]
A
You never know.
- [121:39]
C
Now going back learning that team, they probably would have whipped us. But yeah, man, it was just like a moment, Zach, where I just wanted to get out there for my teammates. Now the next day when I woke up after taking that shot, if we would have won Game 7, it would have been hard for me to play in that finals. I was down for a while when it came to my ability to be able to move, be able to breathe correctly and all those things. So I was really messed up the next day after playing in that Game seven. But you do what you can, you know, to get out there and the fans don't know everything. Your family might not know everything, but the Guys in the locker room, they see it and they know what you go through and they respect what you go through because, you know, obviously that means it's important to you. And so I gave everything I.
- [122:19]
A
Last Heat history question, then we'll do a couple rapid fire ones to get you out of here. I've always wanted to ask you this. 2011 finals, 2011. Sorry, but I'm the steward of basketball fans in this position. I have to ask you this. LeBron is clearly having some sort of mental meltdown. Mind. His mind is confidence. Whatever it is, something is wrong with LeBron. You see this? He's not aggressive. He's passing up shots. He's not driving. It's not LeBron. We all know LeBron. That's not LeBron. Was there a conversation you had with him during the Finals? Trying to get to the root of it. What's happening? We need you to snap out of it, or did you just say, I can't get in? Like this is his thing to sort out, or did you just think it'll sort itself out? How do you handle something like that in that moment?
- [123:14]
C
Well, in the moment, I mean, I think it's. And I've said it before, is I was on Braun, like, that's my job. It's. Our relationship is to two of the best players in the game is to make sure that we're pulling that out of each other. And going into the Dallas series, I felt we had two mismatches. I felt that no one can guard me and no one can guard him. And so I'm like, they may be a better team overall, possibly, but we got the two best players. Even though Durk is one of the greatest players ever, I thought in that series that we possibly could have the two best players from a mismatch standpoint. And so when I didn't see him performing at the level that I know, that I've watched this person perform at since I've seen him play on ESPN in high school. I was like, hey, what's going on? You know what I mean? And I don't know if I approached it the right way at all, but I was on Bron. Like, I'm just trying to get him to, like, to get back in this game, to wake up. Because sometimes it does. One thing can happen, whether it's in your personal life, whether it's in the game, and it can just knock your flow and your rhythm off. You know what I mean? And sometimes you need something to happen to go well for you. You need someone to say something. You need someone to believe in you, someone to get on your ass, whatever it is. And I tried the approach. We're best of friends, and so we spend a lot of time together. And so I wanted to get to the root of it, because, bro, this is why we got together to do this. And so he couldn't get out of it. I don't know what it was. He struggled a little bit. And I put it. And I go back and I look, and I felt like in that series, I. Probably because of the mismatch situation, I had the best series, and I had a chance to actually win finals mvp, and we won a championship. Like, I had a really good series. And I look back at myself, and I'm like, man, this is why he came here. As you, as a leader, it's your job to help lead him. And I feel like I failed my leadership responsibilities in that. And so I don't know if I approached him the right way at all. I just know that, you know, we didn't get the LeBron that we got the next three years at that time. And, you know, it was unfortunate for us because I didn't feel like nobody can guard him in that series.
- [125:15]
A
Did he engage with you when you had these conversations with him, or would he just try to sort of, you know, like, I'm good, I'm good, I'm good.
- [125:22]
C
Yeah, I mean, he's trying to figure it out, too. You know what I'm saying? Like, you trying to snap back into it. You know, you're trying to run plays, you're trying to, hey, I get a break. Let me look for you. Like, we know, like, sometime a dunk, a block, something can change, you know what I mean? Just your rhythm and your flow. And so, yeah, he was trying to figure it out, but he could never catch it and get back into that rhythm and that flow. And then, you know, Dallas start sensing it. They start switching up their defenses a lot. They start sending a lot of different guys at them to keep them off balance. Where there was smaller guys like Jason Terry, you had Deshaun Stevenson, you had Shawn Marion. Like, they had a lot of guys that they would send at him. And then on the other end, they got J.J. barrera running him around, and so they did a great job of keeping him off balance, and we couldn't get him into a rhythm and a flow. And we all took that very hard going into the summer. Like, man, like, is it? Is it? You know, we know a great player is, you know, supposed to be Great. And this is LeBron James, but also too, he came here so we can help him learn how to win in these moments and be great in these moments. And did we fail them? And I think we all went into the summer like, what could we do better? The coaches and the players. And so, yeah, it was unfortunate. And I was on Brian. I was mad because I wanted us both to be like, unstoppable together. And I wanted us to put that middle finger up to all the haters together in that first year. And like I said, the basketball guys just wasn't on our side because they didn't want to see the ugly side of us. And the performance that we needed from both of us was not there in that series.
- [126:47]
A
All right, I'm going to put you on the spot. Put your Amazon prime analyst hat on. I can't remember what your preseason finals pick was, but give me your 2/3 of the way season finals pick. You don't have to give me a winner, but just who you think is going to be mine was Thunder Knicks to start the season. I guess I'm going to stick with Thunder Knicks out of loyalty to my own pick. But I don't feel great about the Knicks part of it anymore.
- [127:09]
C
What about you? Well, the one thing I've learned about media is you can change your mind. You change your mind anytime you want. Zach, as I sit here right now today, I'm gonna go with two teams that maybe, probably should be ready, maybe 27 and 28. But I think, you know what, let's give them a chance. I think the Pistons and the spurs love it.
- [127:31]
A
What a game the other night, huh? That was a fun one.
- [127:33]
C
What a fun game to watch. I've watched the Spurs, I've done a few of their games, even though I don't feel like they. They're supposed to be ready. Like, you know what I mean? They're supposed to be a team that's like, ooh, in the next three years they should be able to. But they just do things sometime. And you look at their roster, you look at their guys, you be like, well, with the right matchups, they're going to be tough to beat. You know, when we playing at this level, he's going to be tough to beat when the game slows down. And so you look at him, you're like, man, maybe. And so I just watched Detroit the other night in New York without Duran and without Stewart, and I didn't see them miss a beat. And I was like, oh, this team is deep and this Team know how. They know they style, they know they game, they know how they win. That's tough when you. When the team ain't gotta figure it out. Right now, they just bank. They just building that cadence even more. They building that confidence together even more. And they can go this many deep. That's scary. And so I look at those teams right now. I say dark horse is the Pistons and the Spurs.
- [128:29]
A
I like to pick before we go tell people about the Y Network. You've got a podcast on it, but what are you trying to build with this as you build out your 17,000 jobs, as you put it?
- [128:40]
C
Well, I think the one thing I understand, just like so many creators out there, is media has become the front door to a lot of things that we want. For me, it becomes the door to my existing audience that I have, that I built, and it becomes the door to the new audience. Zach, I have a lot of things that I'm a part of, whether it's Estee Lauder campaigns, whether it's. Whether it's my sneaker releases, whether it's. Whatever it is. I have these. I have a lot of things that I want to speak on that I want people to hear from my pov, my point of view, get an understanding of me and my life. And so I do vlogs on here. I do my own show where I check in with either guests or a host. But also, too, it's a vehicle, and I want to take this vehicle as far as it will allow me to take it with all the other things that I'm doing. And Amazon is a part of that as well, because this is all under the media play. My production company, 59th Ferrari, is a part of it as well. And so it's just. It's a part of my life. It's the media part of my life. The wide network is something that I built personally out of my own studio, out of my own pockets, and we're gonna see how to continue to grow it. And hopefully it'd be a platform where, you know, people who love to consume content and other creators want to be a part of one day. But right now, it's for me to maximize my life, myself, and all the things that I'm trying to build. That's in my wheel.
- [129:56]
A
I'm telling people, man, D. Wade is working. D. Wade is working hard. I don't know if you know this. The Estee Lauder campaign actually came down to me and you. They picked you over me. In the end, it was a tough loss for me. But it's been so fun. It's been so fun to work with you. And I did, like, one of the best moments of my career was when you demonstrated the swing through Gather on me on national television. Unbeknownst to me that you were gonna do that, I almost tripped and fell, which could have resulted in a, my complete humiliation in front of a national audience could have injured you. Like, you were at risk. You didn't know that. But, like, even, even in, like, dress clothes, Dwyane Wade, slow motion, like, being nice to me, I could still feel like, God, this is, this is a different species of athlete here that I can't, I can't, I can't mess with. That was a fun moment. D. Wade, you're the best. Thank you for your time. Everyone can find you in various different places. It's been wonderful chopping it up with you. Thanks for coming on, man.
- [130:49]
C
Appreciate you having me on. And next time I see, you know, I have my notebook, I'll be taking notes.
- [130:53]
A
There you go. Dwayne Wayne, everybody. Thank you, sir. All right, that's it for today's edition of the Zach Lowe Show. We'll be back on Tuesday, Tuesday with a new episode. I'll be doing Sunday's pod with Bill after. I think there's a Celtics game at 8 o'. Clock. Thank you to the great Tim Legler, thank you to the hall of Famer Dwayne Wade, thanks to Mike, Billy and Jonathan on production as always, and thanks to you all for listening to and or watching the Zach Lowe Show. We'll see you next week. 21 or over in President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over in President D.C. kentucky gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com, call 1-888-78-9-7777 or visit ccpg.org Chattanicut or is it mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland? Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 8003275050 for 2024. 7 Support of Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New York. For Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7867. Where's your playlist taking you? Down the highway to the mountains or just into daydream mode while you're stuck in Traffic? With over 4,000 hotels worldwide, Best Western is there to help you make. Make the most of your getaway, wherever that is. Because the only thing better than a great playlist is a great trip. Life's the trip. Make the most of it at Best Western. Book direct and save@bestwestern.com.