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- [00:00]
Adam Morris
Foreign.
- [00:06]
Zach Lowe
Up on the Zach Lowe show right after this, it's 2026. Happy New Year, everybody. We got a lot to talk about. We got Adam Morris from DNVR Sports and the All City Podcast with our guy, Tim Legler. He's a Nuggets expert. A lot of stuff going on with the Nuggets. A lot of people are hurt. How do they survive without Jokic? Where are they going to be in the standings when he comes back? What do we think of the 65 game rule? What if he doesn't make it? What does that do to the MVP race?
- [00:30]
Adam Morris
All.
- [00:30]
Zach Lowe
All NBA. All that stuff. We're going to talk about that. We hit tanking again. And the Jazz situation. All star. Is LeBron not going to make the All Star team? And then Mo Takeil and I bounce around everything else going on in the NBA. The Paolo Banchero issue. Wemby suffering what we hope is a tiny little injury and how he's fitting in the spurs offense that was whirring around those guards while he was out and coming off the bench. The state of the East. Does anyone. Is anyone afraid of the Knicks? Should they be? Are the Cavs back? What's going on with Paolo Banchero and the Magic, Boston, Toronto, Philly? We talk trade stuff. What's going on with Trey Anthony Davis? We get into everything that's going around the NBA with Mo Takeil. That's all coming up on the Zach Lowe Show. Hope you guys enjoy it. Welcome to the Zach Lowe show. Happy 2026. The new year is here. We're almost at mid season and there's a lot going on, specifically with the Denver Nuggets. Adam Morris, DNVR Sports All City Podcast with Tim Legler. You are the guy I go to for all things Nuggets. How are you? How did you ring in the new year?
- [01:42]
Tim Legler
Well, ring it in, I would say uneventfully. Just kind of hanging out at the house, which is the way. I prefer it that way. When it's over, you just walk right upstairs and go to bed. But. But no, it's. I'm enjoying the NBA season and I'm excited to be on here. I feel like it's been a very entertaining one and I'm kind of curious if you feel the same way. I just think there's a lot of good players, a lot of good teams, and I don't. I don't always feel this way.
- [02:06]
Zach Lowe
On January 1st, it definitely got like 75% more entertaining when the spurs whipped the Thunder three times in a Row. It was like, oh, okay, so the thunder bleed blood. And the spurs might be here already. What's going on? Like, the west is this. And there's been some Cleveland stuff. Philly's getting healthy. There's a lot of stuff going on. You're right, it's fun. But I rang in the New Year. Well, pre New Year at the. I'm not calling it the Scotiabank Center. Screw you, Scotiabank. I don't care. You'll never sponsor the Zach Lowe Show. Now it's the Air Canada Center. And yes, I realize Air Canada is also a corporation, but still, watching your Denver Nuggets win a gritty, ugly, fun game against the Raptors, the first game since Nicola Yic hyper extended his knee. He'll be out a month. And David Adelman? I ran into him a little bit after the game. He was buzzing from that win. A little worried about Valentunas. He went out with the calf strain. That's the last thing the Nuggets need is like another center to get injured. But this is going to be. This is unprecedented territory for the Nuggets. Yokich never gets hurt. He never misses games. Obviously, they're also down. Christian Brown, Aaron Gordon, Cam Johnson. I think Brown and Gordon are getting closer, from what I've heard. Maybe in the next two weeks, max, hopefully. But, Adam, I'm sure you've dove into this like, the schedule is not hard, but it is very crowded. They play 15 games in the next 25 days. They've got Brooklyn, Washington a couple of times, the Mavs, the Pelicans, the Bucks, the Hornets. So it's not like a murderer's robot, just a lot of games down, a critical mass of starters. And when Jokic first got hurt, I looked at the schedule, I looked at the standings and, and, you know, my first thought was, well, they're going to drop in the standings. Can they. Are they at risk of actually falling to seventh and falling into the play in and. And does that even matter? Last night's win doesn't necessarily change my feelings that they are going to slide in the standings. I know. Does it change your feelings at all?
- [04:20]
Tim Legler
I think in a weird way, that first game is. Is the easiest because the other teams don't quite know who you are either. So you almost have an element of surprise. I mean, Denver started Jalen Pickett last night, which I doubt Toronto was prepared for. And there's just some. A weirdness that happens whenever a team loses a key piece, like, like Jokic and like all the starters that they've lost. So it doesn't change my perspective at all, other than I know why David Adelman was buzzing. Every win is going to feel like that for the next four weeks. Every win is going to feel like, my God, we avoided a disaster. And last night, by the way, literally avoided a disaster by 0.1 seconds, almost getting that game sent to overtime.
- [04:58]
Adam Morris
So.
- [04:59]
Tim Legler
So, no, it doesn't change my perspective. But you just said, did they fall to seventh? Absolutely. I think they're only four games in the last column up. That is not, you know, that's one bad week, two bad weeks away from falling there. And in the west right now, teams just don't seem to go on extended losing streaks.
- [05:14]
Zach Lowe
So, first of all, the Ingram shot to end the game was absolutely incredible. I was at the game. My family was at the game. My daughter and her cousin were at the game. They got to meet the Raptor before the game. No, Jokic, but we got to meet the Raptor, get some photos with the Raptor. And it was one of the only buzzer beaters of that ilk where. I don't know how you were watching it or where you were watching, I assume at home or something. It was one of the only buzzer beaters of that ilk where me and all the people I was sitting with and there were some NBA people I was sitting with, too. It did not cross our minds that it came after the buzzer. It didn't feel like that. It. Like it was. Everybody went crazy. It was like, all right, we're going to overtime on New Year's Eve, I guess. And then Zarba comes up with, like, oh, I didn't. I. It looked good to me in real time. I didn't. To the point that I didn't even think that it was no good. And, like, there weren't even a lot of Denver people waving. No good, no good, no good. It was a crazy shot.
- [06:06]
Tim Legler
Yeah, I was the same for me. I didn't. I didn't think that until they were going to the review and they're like.
- [06:10]
Zach Lowe
What are they reviewing?
- [06:11]
Tim Legler
What is that that's going on? Like, oh, maybe he didn't get it off in time. But to set the stage for this, just so people know, Bruce Brown was in Toronto. I don't think it went well.
- [06:19]
Zach Lowe
You know, he doesn't. We were joking at the game. That was the. That those two missed free throws are the biggest contributions Bruce Brown has made to the Toronto Raptors in his career.
- [06:29]
Tim Legler
I don't think it went well. I don't think he has fond memories of that time. I don't think it's anything personal with any one guy or anything like that, but I don't think he thinks fondly of that. Sort of missed two free throws, one of which would have sealed the game. To miss both of them and then have Ingram hit that shot, I have to imagine that was the lowest feeling he's had in quite a while and the most relief he's felt in a while when he saw that the shot was late.
- [06:48]
Zach Lowe
How has there not been some NBA content creator who has capitalized on the hype around Christopher Nolan's the Odyssey? How has no one made a video of Bruce Brown's the Odyssey coming back to Denver with Jokic as the spouse waiting for him? And you could just make up, make up all the characters. The Suns, David Adelman could be somebody. It's. It's sitting right there for people. Anyway, enough. To your point, If Denver goes 5 and 10 in their next 15 games, and I think that's like, not implausible, if you told me they went 8 and 7, I would say I'm pretty surprised they managed 8 and 7 given all these dudes that are out. If they go 5 and 10, Phoenix goes 9 and 6. They have the same record. Minnesota only has to go 500. They have the same record as Denver. So falling to seventh or sixth is totally in play. And yet I actually don't care, because I don't. I think 5 and is 5 and 10 optimistic or pessimistic to you?
- [07:50]
Tim Legler
It's, I think, a little pessimistic. 5. 5 is on the low end of what I would hope for, I think. But I mean, to your point, they're down four starters. They'll get a couple of these guys back soon. The injury to Big Val that you kind of referenced just a second ago is a big deal because we were joking about this the other day at dnvr. Who starts when they play tomorrow night? Is it Jaron Holmes, who just played his first NBA game, his real NBA game last night? He might be the best option to start at center tomorrow. That's how depleted they are. So five is on the low end, but it's certainly in play.
- [08:21]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, I would agree.
- [08:22]
Adam Morris
I.
- [08:23]
Zach Lowe
If you, if you. I would say, I wonder what Vegas would set it over under like six and a half, maybe Feels like a good line, seven and a half, I don't know. But I don't care. Because even if they do go 5 and 10 and all those other teams tie them, catch them Whatever. When Jokic comes back, they're going to start winning at their normal pace again and they're going to pass some of those other teams. And by the way, the Lakers are in just a morass of suckage right now and I don't have a huge amount of faith in them to pile up like a 10 and 5 record of the next 15 games. And I actually don't think the Nuggets care much about seating. I don't get the sense that they care much about seating, having talked to a bunch of their people in the last couple of days here. And in fact, if they somehow ended up in sixth at the end of the season, which I think is wildly pessimistic, but just say it's worst case scenario, they end up in six. Being on the opposite side of the bracket from Oklahoma City is not a bad consolation prize for them. I think the four or five thing is a little bit more interesting and having to play them in the second round. But again, I don't think they care about any of this because I do get the sense that I'm sure you guys, you do too, being around them.
- [09:30]
Adam Morris
Much more than I am.
- [09:32]
Zach Lowe
I think they're an inner circle title contender. They think they're an inner circle title contender when they get healthy, and I think they're really excited about what this team could be when they get Brown, Gordon, Jokic, Johnson back. I think they were excited about what Cam Johnson was developing into within their system in the last couple of weeks before he got hurt. And I think they're hopeful they're going to learn something about Pickett Holmes. You know, Watson is going to be able to stretch himself. He took a lot of tough twos last night, made a lot of them to try to dunk on the world a couple of times and, and hope that something sort of can be brought out of this stretch into the healthy stretch. Like I think this team, they were the biggest threat to Oklahoma City before the season. And despite what the spurs just said to Oklahoma City, I think Denver is the second best team in the NBA and really not that far from Oklahoma City when they're all healthy because they have the ultimate trump card and it's the big fel.
- [10:26]
Tim Legler
I 100% agree. And we, this is the thing about the Nugget season is we saw enough we before the injury started to pile up, we saw enough of them to say it just looks different. The game was easier to them. They were getting up by double figures in every single game. The real challenge was focus. You know, they would, they would allow a team back into it in a third quarter before putting them away and, and winning. But they just looked like the best version of themselves. I know that 2023 team, they won the title, so they're always going to get that mark. But they looked every bit as good and better as a regular season team until the wheel started to come off. And even when they lost Aaron Gordon, who's a huge piece, and Christian Brown, who's a big piece, even when they lost them, they didn't skip a beat. So I think Denver has to feel great about themselves. The difficulty of this season, of the 82 game season, is that you lose guys and then you go these long stretches really half the year where you don't have your team and you're just trying to survive. Denver's unfortunately going to have to play, you know, maybe a third of their season here coming up where the games don't matter except for win, just win. And maybe like you said, figure something out about some of these end of bench guys.
- [11:28]
Zach Lowe
I like Holmes. I mean, Holmes is going to make shots. They're very confident in that. Is Zeke Najee, like, where is Zeke Najee?
- [11:37]
Tim Legler
Yeah, he was, he was a DNP last night, which was interesting. Eight man.
- [11:41]
Zach Lowe
Yeah. If he can't get into these games, it's, it's really and truly over for, for the Zeke man. Yeah, I mean, look, the, the optimism I think is justified. The one nagging thing is you always worry about, you don't want to burn Jamal Murray out in this stretch because the burden of shot creation is going to fall real heavy on him. And Also Tim Hardaway Jr. Who's probably like super psyched about all the burden being shoved onto him. And just, you know, you hope that Aaron Gordon, when he comes back is as over the leg issues. Calf is. What is a calf or hamstring? I can never remember.
- [12:18]
Tim Legler
Well, yeah, maybe related, right?
- [12:21]
Adam Morris
Yeah.
- [12:21]
Zach Lowe
And you always have in the back of your mind like a recurrence could always happen. And without him, I mean, he's just one of the skeleton keys of the NBA for their team. But I love this team. It's going to be a rough stretch. It's such a bummer that Jokic is hurt, but I, I don't really worry about where they are in the standings at the end of this because I think they'll be fine.
- [12:41]
Tim Legler
It's. The west is going to be hard for everybody. I do think if you're a 1 seed there, I'm just looking at who might be an Eight seed and you might get a Golden State. If they get it together, you might get a little bit of a weaker team there. But one through seven, it's just tough. And so you're going to get a tough matchup. I will say Jamal Burnout is probably my number one concern over this next month, even more so than dropping in the standings. It's just how much does he have to empty the tank right here to, to lead up to Jokic's return? And then, you know, Aaron Gordon has been in and out of the lineup for a year and a half now. It's not just that he got injured this year, it was all of last year. And so for me it, it could just be a fluke thing, but it is something I look at and say how long can he even last four playoff rounds? I think he can. You want to give a guy a benefit of the, of the doubt, but I'm not sure that his body can hold up for two and a half months of intense basketball just because we haven't seen it now for two years.
- [13:39]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, the playoffs are, it's just impossible to overstate what a grind they are when you start playing every other day. Highest intensity, best opponents, heaviest minute loads, all of the national attention on YouTube. You know, it's why LeBron being 41 years old is like almost a disqualifier for the Lakers. Setting aside all their issues now being a legit contender in the west because he's not going to make it through a season and four playoff rounds at anything close to intact. Let's talk about the 65 game rule, which is going to be under the microscope because Jokic had played every game and if he misses the exact four weeks, he'll be right at 65 games and four weeks is the reevaluation period. Now you also never know, right? Like Giannis came back much earlier than he than it was. The timetable was from this recent calf injury. And by the way, after the game last night, I, I will say being around all the Nuggets people, there was not a lot there. JV will get tested and do all the MRI stuff when they get to Cleveland. Cleveland or they flying to Cleveland today. But there did not seem to be a huge amount of concern that this was going to be like a major long term calf injury. There seem to be optimistic but again, you never know with timetables. But 65 games on the dot seems optimistic if, if the reevaluation date is a month out. And so that would if one more game missed and he's out for all the honors, notably most Valuable Player and First Team All NBA. I have never been a big fan of the 65 game rule. I wasn't super passionate, like anti the rule. I understand why they did it. Part of the reason I wasn't super, super passionate about it was it's just, it's going to be hard to win the MVP if you only play 63 games. 64 games, regardless of whether there's a rule or not. However, all NBA is and has always been different to me, which is why one of my complaints about the rule was can you at least like, for. I've said this repeatedly, like for third team all NBA. Can you at least lift the rule? Because I don't want to sit here and be like, well, Kevin Durant and Nikola Jokic played 59 and 63 games. So I guess, hey, Julius Randle, here's your third charity all NBA appearance of your NBA career. Like, we all know these guys are better. Can I just, like, once you get to 50 or some requisite minimum, can you just give me the freedom to do that? But I like, if he plays 64 games, there's no question he should be first team all NBA. I will say 64 games. Let's say SGA plays 81. He's missed only one game so far. He plays 80. I do think it's. It's going to be hard to, to even rationally argue that Jokic in 64 games put up more quote unquote value than SGA in 80 games. But I'm, I'm, I'm tired. I'm ready to just abolish the rule. I'm ready to get rid of it. I never loved it to begin with. I always wanted more freedom for third team all NBA. But like, there's no question 64 games of Jokic is the first team all NBA player. Like, zero question.
- [16:52]
Tim Legler
I mean, I think that part of it is very true. I mean, I'll start by just saying that if you make a change to this rule, it has to be done in the off season. And I say that because I ha. I do. I can already hear all of the people that are on the other side of all of these debates on the Jokic MVP debates that say, well, now that it's him, you want to change the rules midstream. And I think that is unfair.
- [17:11]
Zach Lowe
But oh no, there's no, there's no way you could do it in the season. Zero chance.
- [17:15]
Tim Legler
So I just wanted to set the table there. So, you know, because this isn't something I've thought about a lot. And obviously now that it's happening with Jokic, you do you kind of, you feel it a little bit more. The all NBA thing is just how you remember the NBA. It's how you tell the story of the NBA season. And to your point, if you start eliminating your Durants and your Yokiches and everybody else and you elevate guys that are like, that's not the story of the NBA. He just was the last guy standing that qualified. Then I do think we lose something. So I think it's something certainly something to revisit. It was the rule was made in place because guys were not playing, but guys now I think the problem with the injury with the NBA right now is almost less load management and more guys just getting injured and missing a long periods of time. And I don't know how you fix that.
- [17:57]
Zach Lowe
Well, it also had the reverse thing where, you know, Halliburton two seasons ago played through an injury clearly trying to get to 65 games because there's also money involved. That's the other thing. Money is attached to the all NBA stuff. And he was just member what I think it's 20 minutes. There were a bunch of games where he played like 20 and 25 minutes. And it was like very transparently. Well, actually not transparently because the Pacers denied it, but it was very obvious what was happening. I was never a big fan of it. I understood why they did it. And my point was always as a voter, now a former voter, maybe a future voter, I'm able to make educated decisions when there are varying levels of games played. It's my job as an observer of the NBA to decide whether 63 games of Jokic is more or less additive in value than 74 games of Giannis or whatever. Like I, I, I, I'm, I'm capable of doing that. Just, just let me do it. And certainly don't make it so that I can't put 64 games of Jokic on an all NBA team. And I've mentioned third team a bunch of times. So like he'd be first team. Like he's just so much better than everyone else except for Shea and he's even better than Shay.
- [19:08]
Tim Legler
Anyway, I want to make one point about awards voting. I think the mistake that, that especially MVP voters get wrong is they think they can see the future. You know, because we followed this for the last five years and so many of the arguments are, well, we can't do that because in five years, what will we think that we did this. You don't know what you're going to think in five years. These guys might be like Shay Gil just Alexander wins it last year. He might be an all time great player. He might be a guy that ends up winning six or seven because he deserves it. I think a lot of the votes that people make have to do with oh I know how we're going to think about this in years to come and you always end up getting yourself into trouble for it. That's the big mistake I see with it with the MVP voters and awards voters is people trying to imagine what this will mean 10 years from now.
- [19:54]
Zach Lowe
What other before we move on, what other Nuggets thoughts should we get into? Who's had an interesting season or what player or players. Are you really curious about how they handle this non Jokic and not a bunch of other guys?
- [20:07]
Tim Legler
Stretch well, I think one thing that'll be interesting is when Christian Brown returns. Peyton Watson is such an interesting Payton Watson and Christian Brown come into the league together. Christian Brown's more polished, probably a lower upside, less athletic, but he's a guy that immediately understood what the task was, what his job was executed. It won the trust of everyone and just got paid. Peyton Watson has been phenomenal in that same exact role with more athleticism, which I think is the sneaky missing ingredient that you have to surround Jokic with athleticism. Especially you see this in the playoffs when you go up against some of these super athletic teams. Peyton Watson brings them this unique dynamic and Denver kind of has to make a decision about when everybody is back, who plays the most minutes. Do you try to find minutes for Peyton Watson alongside Jokic? And I'm just kind of curious to see how that unfolds and how Denver handles Peyton Watson's future. He's an under, is a free agent next year, a restricted free agent. I don't think they can afford him and so they have. The Peyton Watson dynamic of all this I think is really interesting, especially when Christian Brown comes back.
- [21:10]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, they made a decision about which one to prioritize in extension talks. I really like Peyton Watson and it is interesting because on a team with Aaron Gordon, who you know is it is now a plus shooter but teams don't treat him that way quite yet. Christian Brown's an okay shooter. Peyton Watson is shooting 37 and a half percent from three but it's a, it's a juggling act with two of those or three of those guys on the floor all at once. Three would be pretty Rare. But I do like, I like the aggression that he played with last night. I like him saying, someone's got to do it. It's me or Tim Hardaway right now, because Jamal's on the bench. Like, I'm going to see what I can do. And you know, Jokic is, is such sort of a big picture thinker that almost more than any player on the team, I feel like sometimes Jokic is kicking the ball to Watson. And the unspoken message is, man, we need you to take these shots. I trust you to take these shots. Take these shots. I'm kicking it to you. Take them. I don't care if you miss, keep shooting.
- [22:12]
Tim Legler
I think I love that you brought this up because I had the thought just watching Jokic all these years when he passed it the other, the other day, I can't even remember what the game was off the top of my head. Where he had a shot at the rim would have been contested. He probably would have made it. And he kicked it to Peyton Watson. I thought, I'll bet you there's a little thought in the back of his mind of, I just want to see what Peyton Watson does in this moment. I want to see if he's a make guy, how he handles it if he misses. And so I'm with you on that. I think that there is a little method to the madness of Jokic in all things.
- [22:40]
Zach Lowe
All right, let's talk about the other voting related controversy that is at hand right now is LeBron James is at risk of not making the All Star game for the first time in a thousand years. He is ninth in the fan vote. And the way they calculate the starters, which all of this is beginning to break my brain. So we're picking five Western Conference starters and five Eastern Conference starters, even though those players in a lot of cases will not be teammates because the game is us versus the world and not west versus East. And every All Star discussion has to begin with these fucking five minute primers about how the game works. Can we just go back to east versus West? Like, why is this so fucking hard? They're not going to try either way. Like, just like, what are we doing? So the Western Conference starters who will not be teammates. LeBron's ninth in the fan vote and that's 50% weighted for who gets to start. The remaining is 25% media and 25% players. I don't think LeBron is going to make up enough ground in the media vote. First of all, he does deserve to be an All Star this year. Just like, objectively, that's just true. I'm sorry. So I don't think the media will vote him high enough or the players will be interesting, but I don't think he's going to net out of that as one of the top five Western Conference players. Then the coaches pick the next seven players and it's just you wonder, is there going to be sort of a discussion amongst the coaches who. By the way, it's always the assistant coaches who are actually filling out these ballots of, hey, are we all. The thing, the game's in la, we're not like a thousand percent sure he's coming back next year. Are we all. Should we all put him in or are we all, like, tired of him? He did sit out the All Star Game last year at the semi last minute, which did not earn a lot of goodwill at NBA League offices. Let's say they don't vote him in because again, he's objectively not one of the 12 most deserving Western Conference players this season, having missed as much time as he's missed with the sciatica. Then it falls to Adam Silver, who has carte blanche to do whatever he wants, both in replacing injured players, of which one might be Nikola Jokic, we'll see. Or he should be healthy by then, but who knows? Or adding, like, us players if there are not enough of us players versus international players. Traditionally he's gone down the coaches vote and pick like the next guy on the list, but he doesn't have to do that. And they have the precedent of him adding Dirk Nowitzki and Dwyane Wade in what turned out to be the last year of both of their careers for, like a swan song career achievement. All Star Dirk, that year had not officially announced his retirement yet. Everyone kind of knew it was coming. Wade, we knew. I don't like. I'll bet, Like, I just. I'm gonna come out and say it. Adam. I'm gonna say Adam Silver names LeBron James to the All Star team one way or another. That's my prediction. But it is. It could be dicey.
- [25:40]
Tim Legler
It's certainly dicey as you set the stage for it. And I mean, just to be clear, he's not one of the 12 best players this year in the Western Conference. So I think that that, that part is. Is what makes this so interesting. But here's how I look at it and I. This might be controversial this year and this season. Part of what I'm enjoying about it is it feels like the first official. It starts with the Thunder winning the championship. But it feels like a true changing of the guards. Steph's team has been down. He hasn't had as many great nights as we, you know, we're accustomed to. The warriors are down, LeBron is down. Kevin Durant's with the Rockets. But you know, that team is as much about the young players that as him. He's, it's, it's a nice merging of it and we have all these young players that are emerging into, into focus here as guys that we are starting to learn storylines to, and those storylines are going to grow and grow. LeBron to me, feels like this. It's weird to say because he's an all time great player, but he's hanging on in a way that I almost feel is like, okay, there's other storylines here. Step aside. And the All Star Game maybe is the perfect opportunity to say, you know what? Wembanyama is enough. Shakeo just Alexander is enough. These guys are enough. We don't need the LeBron story anymore.
- [26:49]
Zach Lowe
It's, it's going to be interesting. I, I would be very surprised if they don't, if the league does not find a way to involve him. And unless he says, unless he says, look, man, I'm old. I didn't play last year. I don't really want to play.
- [27:04]
Adam Morris
Right.
- [27:05]
Zach Lowe
Even though it's in my hometown. Not in my home arena, but in my hometown. We'll see.
- [27:12]
Tim Legler
But yeah, I don't, I don't back next year. If he comes back next year, maybe he's on a different team. Maybe he goes to the East. Do we do this whole thing again? And then next year is also the LeBron farewell tour in the All Star Game.
- [27:23]
Zach Lowe
I'll tell you what, I'll tell you up here in Toronto, people are fired up about Scotty Barnes not even getting in the top 20 of the Eastern Conference fan voting results. There's like the Raptors. People are like, is there some sort of glitch in the. Like, are Canadian votes not being counted? And he should be an All Star. Scotty Barnes should be an All Star. Okay, the last question I wanted to hit with you because you tackled the whole league on the All City pod with, with legs is the tanking stuff. And I wanted to elaborate on Monday's show. I talked about how Utah has the sneaky, most interesting subplot in the NBA, which is this top eight protected pick that they owe the Oklahoma City Thunder, which I think is from a Derek Favors salary dump. If I'm not, if I'm not mistaken. And how this is the exact kind of scenario that at least one of the leagues, not leagues, one of the anti tanking proposals floating around things like the competition committee is to eliminate these pick protections between top four and top 14 because Utah right now is in the ninth spot in the lottery standings in which they would have an overwhelming chance of losing this pick to Oklahoma City. And I talked about how Utah has been kind of frisky particularly when George and Markkanen are both on the floor like almost sniffing a top 10 offense. It just beat the spurs and the Pistons. Then they lost to the Celtics. They rested Svi Mahaluk because God knows Svi has been really overworked the last five, six years of the NBA. Just huge like 3,000 minutes every year. They arrested Kevin Love and they arrested somebody else. I can't remember. And you know I sort of tongue in cheek was like man I kind of wish some of these teams would just let it ride. And may the chips fall where they may knowing that Utah is almost certainly not going to do that. And I think the most likely path for them is now now to get really comfortable with a top eight protected pick you've got to get all the way to sixth in the lottery standings. When you get to the sixth worst record you then have a 97% chance if you're Utah of keeping your pick. If you're even seventh it's still an 87% chance. That's really nice if you told me there's a 13% chance of getting struck by lightning if I leave the house. Say I'm not leaving the house after that it gets a little easier. So can they fall to six? Yes they can. And I think the way they will try to do it is any veteran that any veteran who's not part of their team going forward that they can trade for second round picks or whatever. So love Svi. I think Nurkic has been really serviceable for them and with Kessler already out the drop off from NERC to like Filipowski and just Baron center rotation would be pretty big. I think they'll probably try to chip away at the edges. Couple strategic rests here and there. Trying to avoid the league, the ire of the league, the all encompassing Sauron like eye of Sam Presti who you know this is a team that also sat SGA and Horford strategically for their own tanking purposes years ago. I just think it's interesting. It would be fun to see them go for it. I don't know what is your take on all this, because this is going to be. People are going to be watching the Jazz the rest of the year, and I'm outlining what I think they will do. I can't blame them for it. As much as I want to sit here and say, go for it. What's the worst thing you lose? The 11th pick in the draft. That's. The average return of the 11th pick in the draft is like maybe a good backup player. But if you keep the sixth pick in the draft or whatever it is, you got to have faith in your front office to draft a real guy there. And they need some guys. I get it. I get it.
- [31:01]
Tim Legler
Well, here's a couple thoughts I have because I think there's a lot here. First of all, I think Utah has been tanking all year. They're just. They're one of my favorite bad teams to watch. They're. They. Especially early in the year when they had Walker Kessler, Kyle Filipowski, Larry Markkanen, Svea Kylo. They were playing this enormous lineup that was so wacky and weird and it was fun. And they would get up 40 to 20 after 1/4 on these teams and then ended up blowing it and losing the game anyway, which makes me think they were tanking. But my thought on them is I. They'll probably lose naturally. There's tanking where you're trying to lose games and there's tanking where you're trying to develop young players. They have guys like Walter Clayton, you know, they, they have guys they can throw out there who are probably going to lower their odds. But in this, in the service of making those guys better for the years to come. And then the big thing for me, outside of just wanting to avoid giving Oklahoma City as many lottery picks as you can, the other thing is you want a top pick. And I know here, this draft, you know, top three guys, really strong. Couple of guys after that, really strong. But I think we're finding value into the first round late. First round, second round, undrafted players at a rate we've never seen in the NBA, and I'm not really sure why, but if you look around the league, there are a lot of guys contributing right out of the package as rookies, as role players sometimes. We've always had The Carmelo's and LeBron's guys who, the stars who came in and were ready for it, but role players, guys who just seem to understand the modern NBA at a really high level. There's a lot of. A.J. mitchell.
- [32:31]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, give me some names. Let's go through some Names.
- [32:34]
Tim Legler
Let me just see if I can go through. Obviously just look at anybody on the Oklahoma City Thunder. They seem to be able to bring in these young guys. And then the thing is they have high iq. It's. They're, they're coming in. Understanding the texture of the spacing of the modern NBA and the skill sets. Denver has a guy, Spencer Jones, right now starting for them is a two way player, undrafted guy, but it's, you watch him and you say yeah, but that he knows what he's supposed to do. He's not particularly skilled, but he understands the modern NBA. And I think you can go up and down the NBA right now and every team has one guy that is some late first or early second or undrafted player that is contributing. Minnesota has a handful of those types of players that are contributing. So I just wonder, is it worth tanking? You know you want to get. There's years where you have to get a number one pick, number two pick. But all these other years you could find value at the 18th pick. Is it worth it to not develop your guys just so that you can get the third pick instead of the sixth pick? I just don't think it is anymore.
- [33:29]
Zach Lowe
Interesting. And to your point about the Jazz, there are a lot of young guys there that they can easily throw minutes to. I've, I've always been a big Taylor Hendricks fan. He had that devastating leg injury last year. Said some flashes this year, shot it decently from three. I like to see more of him. Cody Williams at least looks playable now. Like a little bit more like, like he has some idea of what he wants to do when he gets the ball and it's not just like sheer panic and confusion. Not great. But like you drafted him high, you're going to have to throw a minutes at some point. Clayton, you mentioned he dunked. Who did he dunk on the other day where I was like, oh my God, somebody. I think Derek White. I think it was Derek White who by the way, Derek White's going to be my pet. Like fringy all star case. I just love what that guy plays so hard and does so many things so well. I love that dude.
- [34:23]
Tim Legler
7 block shots yesterday or was earlier this week at 7.
- [34:27]
Zach Lowe
He plays so freaking hard and does everything for that team that they need him to do. Huge, huge fan. Yeah. And to your point about watching Utah's rotations, just every time I watch them, I'm flagging the, the minutes when both Keonte George and Larry Markkanen are on the bench. Those are just a complete sinkhole of points that they definitely know it's a complete sinkhole of points. And look, maybe it's not anything other than we want to maximize the minutes they play together. We don't necessarily think like Keonte George by himself is going to keep our offense afloat. But, you know, I mean, you have lived this with Murray and Jokic, like anytime they. David Adelman, right before Jokic, his injury was like kind of sit leaning back into lineups featuring neither of them and they were getting run off the court. And those. Now, those minutes are just going to have to be part of Denver's rotation. But I, by the way, they're your division mates. I mean, I assume you've seen a lot of Keante George. I. That guy's a real guy. He's really, really good. He's just got.
- [35:27]
Tim Legler
He's got. And it's natural too. He's got a quickness to him. He attacks naturally. The game seems like it's easy for him when he's getting downhill. He's got great footwork, great handle. Yeah, he's. And here's the other thing about tanking for Utah. They already have Bailey and they have George. That might be your cornerstone if you bring in another third guy. And look, they would love to do it if you told them that they could take in, you know, Boozer to Bancer, one of those guys, that's a problem they'd gladly have. But at that point you have three stars all who are sort of ball in your hand, in the hand kind of guys. At some point you start to cannibalize your own roster. Not everybody can be OKC where you get a chat. Holmgren, who's happy to kind of play around the periphery and so I even wonder about that with them of some teams have what they need and they have to start moving forward. And actually what you need are the 11th picks and your 15th picks and those guys that are going to fill out your roster. So you don't have three max contracts that are all 22 years old.
- [36:19]
Zach Lowe
Well, Utah can't get that pick in that range this year, so they have to aim for the top eight and I expect them to do so. Theoretically. It's. It's worth mentioning that theoretically the Jazz could go the other way and try to add an impact player to their team, something they sniffed around I think, in the off season with some, some bigish names. I don't sense that's going to happen in the middle of this season. And I completely agree on Keonte George. Why Wait, the craftiness is the change of pace. And he has this like this almost like a throw ahead dribble where he looks like he's going to pick up his dribble in the paint. Like when he arrives at the ball and go up for a floater and defenses bite on it and assume he's going to shoot and then he bounces it again and hits a pot like a crazy pocket pass. He's just really catch and shoot threes way better. He's coming off flare screens and all that. He has good chemistry with Markkanen. I think this is exactly what it looks like. They're going to get a top eight pick. They're going to bring market in back, keep marketing rather and try to be competitive next year. Adam Morris, buckle up, man. It's going to be a fun month in the Mile High city. You ready for a lot of Duron, Holmes. You're ready for Tim Hardaway Jr. Getting all the shots he wants. Who else we got?
- [37:38]
Tim Legler
Peyton, Watson, Watson breaking out Strothers Straights.
- [37:42]
Zach Lowe
Man, it's dire here out here on the Strothers Straits. He's not getting any in these games.
- [37:47]
Tim Legler
I've always been a little skeptical of him, but he will get his chance here. And Jalen Pickett is my guy. I love weird players. I love, I love some booty ball. That's what they call it is he backs you down ever so slowly and then finds the open guy.
- [37:59]
Adam Morris
So.
- [37:59]
Tim Legler
So it'll be weird out here in Denver for a bit.
- [38:01]
Zach Lowe
I would, I would like more of that because when he was coming into the draft, all my scout friends were like, you're going to love this guy. He's like Andre Miller 2.0 with like this weird old school post game and I feel like I haven't seen enough. Andre Miller two point. I want to see the full Andre Miller Professor Andre Miller, Ph.D. experience.
- [38:18]
Tim Legler
He plays scared, I think. I honestly think that's it. He's so afraid of messing up that it's so conservative. It's like, hey man, get, get some booty ball going. Just be aggressive. It's the only way you're going to in the NBA.
- [38:30]
Zach Lowe
Adam Morris, DNVR Sports in all city with our buddy Legs is a must. Thank you for your time, bud.
- [38:36]
Tim Legler
Thank you so much and happy New Year.
- [38:39]
Zach Lowe
All right, let's go around the league with the great Mo Takeil apparently checking in from the set of forgetting Sarah Marshall.
- [38:46]
Adam Morris
Mo.
- [38:46]
Zach Lowe
What, what's. What's happening? Are you at a tiki? What's happening? Are you At a bar on the beach. Where are you?
- [38:52]
Adam Morris
Not yet.
- [38:53]
Zach Lowe
I'm.
- [38:53]
Adam Morris
It's, it's really early here. Right. Because the whole time. Right. So it's, it's still morning time for me yet to be able to hit the tiki bars. But I'm, you know, visiting the in laws in Hawaii. This is one of the perks of when you marry somebody from Hawaii. Every time she says we have to go see, you know, my parents, I get to go to Hawaii. So I'm never going to complain about that.
- [39:17]
Zach Lowe
We're going to hit a lot of topics, but we got to start with your old, one of your old NBA employers, the San Antonio Spurs. A great win over the Knicks last night at home in a game where Julian Champagne went absolutely crazy. What a year for the Champagne brothers. Justin has been rebounding the hell out of it. Washington, I think. How about two on two Champagnes versus Spencer's at All Star weekend?
- [39:42]
Adam Morris
How about that?
- [39:42]
Zach Lowe
How about we lean into the NBA journeyman brothers?
- [39:45]
Adam Morris
I love that. I love that idea. You know, is there, can we bring a Lopez, can we bring Robin Lopez out of retirement and do just kind of a three way tournament and have.
- [39:54]
Zach Lowe
The Lopez brothers go crazy? Anything is better than watching the Taco Bell skills challenge presented by Poolan weed eater or whatever and Sprite.
- [40:05]
Adam Morris
All right.
- [40:07]
Zach Lowe
If the spurs had been kind of just so. So since the Oklahoma City Blitz and I was prepared to talk about like, huh, what's going on with the Spurs? Were we a little premature in crowning the spurs as contenders and we'll get there, but then they pull out that game against the Knick last night and I think the most interesting thing. Well, first of all, Wemby got injured, didn't appear to be serious. He was on the bench. He was apparently telling people it was all right and he'll be fine and so that's optimistic. But anytime a 75 giant goes down, you worry a little bit and he's like falling over a lot. And so that's just, maybe just life as a 75 guy who has to run and jump for a living. But I was the interesting subplot to me and I wanted to get you. Your take on it is, you know, they start this run with him injured and continue with him coming off the bench. And Fox is having probably a career season shooting wise and the young guards are coming into their own castle. And Harper and I was interested in sort of like how does Wemby offensively fit in to this like three guard, two guard, blitzing, driving, kicking Attack and there's been a little hiccups here and there, but then last night it looks so pure. 31 points before he gets injured. What do you think of that whole, you know. Oh, the spurs offense was really great without Wemby. Defensively, we know, like they're a completely different animal with that dude on the floor. But what have you thought of him sort of reintegrating now as a starter before this injury into the offense?
- [41:39]
Adam Morris
I think it's really kind of challenging for him to find his spot. Right. And I mean, like, you know, where, where is the Wemby's going to operate from out of here in this lineup with where we're going beyond just pick and roll, rolling down, you know, he's cut down on his threes, he's. He's playing more inside the arc, which I think is something everybody was hoping for more of, you know, from him. Over the past few seasons. We're beginning to see all that stuff. I felt like leading up to the NBA cup final, like, it felt like his spot was going to be the free throw line, the Dirk spot kind of area where it felt like that's where he's going to be operating a lot more out of. And then it's a little more difficult because that also clogs the driving lanes for the guards. Right. Like that, Kind of like that. That makes it a bit harder for, you know, Fox to get downhill. Makes it a little harder for Castle and Harper as well. And I think that's. That's where you're sort of in that challenging spot. I think they're still trying to integrate how to kind of incorporate Wemby's spots. And I think, I think eventually he is going to operate out of the dirt spot. We're beginning to see it. They kind of went away from it, but I think we'll see it come back. It's. I. They got to figure out how to work into that, you know, and I think that's really the challenge from it. And it's. It's not. Sometimes it's off the pick and roll and he gets to that spot, but a lot of times when he gets into that high school, high post area, it's him coming off of a rim run, right? Runs down, doesn't get anything in transition, early post up or, or anything like that. And then he works his way back up to that spot instead of just coming out of a short roll into that spot. And I think that's where it's going to be interesting to see how they sort of navigate it. It's a, it's a fun problem to have when you have these three guards who have been absolutely electric together. And I think it's, it's, it's a great issue that they'll have to figure out. But this is the problem you want to have if you're the spurs versus anything else.
- [43:41]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, to be clear, not a problem. And his jump shot looks, his three looks good. Like, I, I, it looks smooth. It looks good. I, like, expect it to go in when he's open. But, you know, I do think Wemby, depending on who's guarding him and what the context is, Wemby getting the ball in a stagnant situation at the nail is probably not as efficient an offense as I think fans would expect it to be. Or just like this guy's an apex superstar in the NBA. He's, he's good at that kind of stuff, and he's a great passer, and that's one of the skills you want to leverage. But as a D, I think teams should be sort of more okay with him. Like, after the Thunder games, I talked about how should the Thunder just stop screwing around with matchups and put Chet on him and see what he can do in that matchup. Like, I'm actually kind of okay with Wemby going one on one from 18ft away. Like, show me you can do it in a super efficient way that's more efficient than this other style that you fit into. But to your point about the pick and roll, Castle especially has figured out how just to lob the ball at the rim in any particular pick and rolls like Nash, dribble under the basket, lob it, head to the rim. Wemby's going to be there, empty side, pick and roll, just get into the middle, lob it back to the side I came from. Wemby's going to be there. Fox is getting there, too. And then he's such a great offensive rebounder because he's so goddamn big. All he has to do is like, barely bounce off his toes in his second in his third jump. But I do think, I do think it is an interesting question, but there's, there's no question that he's going to be an elite offensive player. And the defense is much more than worth it. I mean, he is, everybody knows what he is defensively. So let me ask you, like, after the spurs swept the Thunder, I said they're now a contender. They're an official championship contender. And Kurt Goldsberry asked me what's the ceiling for this team, and I straight up said the ceiling is they can win the championship. Now I'm not picking them to win the championship. I'm not picking them to win the west, but I'm officially on the spurs can win the championship train is what I told him. Then they lose a couple of games in a row, not great fashion. And you start to remember they are very young, they are very untested. You know, they haven't had the playoff growing pains yet. I still am like, if you could beat the Thunder three times in a row like that, I know it's only the regular season. Like, I'm not, I'm not disqualifying you from contender status based on two losses. Where are you on this?
- [46:11]
Adam Morris
So I think first to just kind of go back to like the little malaise they had after beating the, the, the Thunder in that three, three game run. I think some of that was more just like, like a letdown of just like they kind of. I feel like they amped themselves up so much, especially when it was basically a home. And home, you know, for, for the, the Christmas Day game. They, they got so amped up for that. I think just naturally it kind of drained them a little bit in a way. And that's something a young team would do right in, in that way and get so high up off of that. And that, that's, that's going to be the excuse I will give them for the malaise in the way they did. And then that was a big win against the Knicks yesterday. And the way that they came back in that game and, and battle through like that was incredibly impressive. With that, I think they have a championship ceiling. I don't expect it though, because it's still. There's a whole lot more come playoff time.
- [47:11]
Zach Lowe
Right.
- [47:12]
Adam Morris
And it's, it's for the majority of this roster, it's going to be their first real taste of the playoffs. Look, I know they have Harrison Barnes. I know Cornet. You know, they've won a championship. They've known that. You know, Kelly Olenek's been around. Fox has like limited playoff experience. He doesn't have a ton of playoff experience as well. So I feel like I'm you. They, they are contenders in the pure fact of like, like you said, look, they've beaten not just the Thunder three times. They had a winning in, you know, during the NBA cup, which is part of.
- [47:46]
Zach Lowe
And they pants the Thunder twice. Like two of the three wins were not close.
- [47:50]
Tim Legler
Yeah.
- [47:51]
Adam Morris
And so it's like there is A level of like, like that's, that's. It's there. The DNA, the, the. The chemistry, all that stuff's there. It's. Can it align right and perfectly for them once they get to the playoffs? You know, how's Castle going to respond to the intensity of the playoffs? You know Harper, who's been phenomenal rookie, how's he going to. How's Wemby going to respond to the intensity of the playoffs? I have my theories. Obviously he's been through Olympics and all of that stuff. And it's different when you get to the playoffs in the NBA where it's, you know, the defense gets to sit down, you know, especially in the first round three, four days before at hand and literally pick apart your offense in the spots you want to get to. Can they. You know, it comes down to more execution and what do you have figured out. And it's also going to be Mitch Johnson's first time as a head coach in the playoffs. Like all of this stuff kind of comes, you know, takes time to sort of develop and you know, we have seen examples of teams hey first run in the playoffs and kill it. You know, I think we always talk about the Phoenix Suns in that regard, but we also forget Chris Paul was on that team and really? Yeah, like DNA playoff scars, scars, scars like on him and understanding kind of that stuff like I don't feel like they necessarily have. That's what I'm going to be curious about and that's a long ways away. But like right now you have to look at them and say they're a contender. I just don't necessarily think I may be a little bit more of a. Maybe they're like just a tier below the the contenders for me of like okc, Denver and where they're at but like they're knocking on the door.
- [49:28]
Zach Lowe
It's funny how you didn't go anywhere beyond Denver because at the very least you've got to give the spurs this. The list of teams you'd pick over them to win the title is getting shorter and shorter and I would pick both of those teams at full health. I just talked about the Nuggets with Adam Mars for quite a bit over the spurs in my like to win the west odds. I do think it's a small sample. You don't want to overreact to it. They've got something against Oklahoma City that nobody else has. That matchup looks difficult for the Thunder in a way that looked real to me timing wise. The go ahead just to go just.
- [50:02]
Adam Morris
To go to the matchup. It's the guards, it's the athleticism of the guards that they're able to kind of match the Thunders guards athleticism and almost I think in some cases full on win those battles. Like in one of the games there was a play where it was Isaiah Joe on Castle and Castle just bullied him into on his way to the rim and you know, it's just kind of eye opening and like the Thunder don't have the athleticism advantage that they have in a lot of matchups with their depths of guards because the spurs have that as well with a lot of their guards. Like in the way this team is built, I feel like they're on par if not even higher in terms of athleticism, strength even and, and, and speed in the way when I'm watching this team. And I think that's kind of been the, the matchup issue for the Thunder that's causing this sort of become a real problem for them.
- [50:59]
Zach Lowe
Just as a theoretical discussion, only the timing of Wemby, I think Sham's described it as a slight hyper extension of his knee. Not expected to be serious, knock on wood, maybe he won't even miss a game. Who knows? Is interesting for me personally because I've been at all these games in Toronto and there's scouts coming through from all around the NBA and there's, you know, everyone's exchanging trade talk and trade gossip and all of this and you know, Giannis naturally comes up a lot and you will find people, smart people who will say regarding the spurs and Wemby, you know, this school of thought that maybe like the time should be now, like you can't necessarily assume this guy of unprecedented size, skill, mobility is going to be healthy for 10, 12 years, whatever, 15 years, whatever it is. I don't like to engage in such pessimism. I'm just telling you that it is out there in NBA circles and you will find a lot of those people will say I don't really understand why the spurs wouldn't trade Dylan Harper and a bunch of picks and veteran salary filler for Giannis right now. Pick one of Castle and Harper, whoever the spurs think is most valuable, make that person the centerpiece. Get Giannis really go for it now. It's just it, you, you will find people who say that the spurs, maybe even the Thunder are being too risk averse when it comes to, to the Giannis stuff now. I think the Thunder are parked over here, they won the championship, they're at the best record, whatever I do think that's interesting because the assumption around the league is the spurs are just, they're not going to trade any of these guys for Giannis. And I think that's probably true and will remain true. But it just is interesting that you hear in light of Wemby's sort of, I don't even think they're health concerns. It's just nobody knows what to assume about his longevity that you hear this out there. And it's an interesting sort of thought experiment, at least worth engaging in.
- [52:55]
Adam Morris
Yeah, I'm kind of the other way and in a way where I don't think they need as big of a piece as Giannis to be on the championship contender level. I think they have the advantage with the three guards. Like I'm on the train of keep this as long as possible.
- [53:14]
Zach Lowe
To be clear, I'm on that train too. I'm generally risk averse when it comes to trading up 10 years in age, even when you're also trading way up the NBA hierarchy of talent. And Giannis is probably the third best player in the NBA. I will also. And my retort to some of these people sometimes is, you know, he's out with a calf injury now. Obviously he just came back. They lost to the fucking Wizards last night again, we'll talk about that. But he has been injured in the playoffs several times in the last five years. It's not as if he is a guarantee of health. I just, I know it's worth just interesting to me.
- [53:48]
Adam Morris
It's all. It's also, I think it's a tough match with him and Wemby. I think in terms of figure, listen, defensively nobody's scoring, so I guess you win every game because you keep everybody to 30 points like I get.
- [54:01]
Zach Lowe
And that's what, that's what the pro spurs be aggressive school will default to is how are you going to score on this team if they're both on the floor?
- [54:08]
Adam Morris
If, if. Which is also what you alluded to with the Giannis injuries and stuff. But again, I just think we just before we got to this part of the topic, we just talked about them. Are they contenders? They're already very, very close. It's not going to take much for them to really get to that stage. We're talking about them in the same breath of OKC Denver or maybe just a touch below, but in the same breath as Houston start of the season. We're like, like we think, well, I was high on them. I know you were high on them. I remember we talked about it. Even in Vegas we thought they were a top six team. I didn't have them second in the west or even third in the West. Like I still felt like they had some growing like they're right there now. I don't think you need to just make the massive. A single will do right now for them and will put can put them in a position another wing like just, I'm just throwing out a name. I'm not, I don't but like a Trey Murphy, a Herb Jones, a wing, another long lengthy wing defender in the, in that, in that image. And I think they're right on the. You're looking at it going like damn, no, now they're really contenders and I think they're just, they don't need necessarily have to go run for Giannis and tear up most of their roster to get to that.
- [55:24]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, it's, it's, it's so interesting to have these theoretical discussions with NBA people because they will say they will accept everything you just said as true. Like they are are close. Now their retort to that, the aggressive school of thought retort to that would be the hardest and most valuable jump to make is from in the conversation to favorites. And if you can make that jump while costing yourself only one of your three centerpiece young players, you should. And I always just like you do say, well it's not just either or. There's a third path of they're for sure going to try to turn Socan plus a pick plus a swap plus maybe another salary Olynic or something into another viable rotation player to take some minutes from whoever deserves to play less. I don't know. Anyway, it's just interesting. Let's talk about the east. Since we talked about the Knicks and we just talked about the Bucks losing again to the Wizards and the Giannis trade stuff. I just think the east. It's just so interesting to talk to people around the east because who did you pick? Who did you pick to make the finals out of the East? Did you pick New York like I did?
- [56:35]
Adam Morris
I picked, I picked the Knicks.
- [56:38]
Zach Lowe
I think they'd be the closest thing to a consensus pick, with apologies to the Pistons. I, I don't say this in a tongue in cheek way. I don't really think anyone. I don't hear a lot of people from other Eastern Conference teams express a lot of fear of the Knicks and I say that as someone who picked the Knicks to win the title and I don't quite know why that is. Well, I do know why that is. Their offense is unassailably really good. It's their defense, and it's the sort of just lack of general faith in Cat to make smart decisions in high leverage moments. I actually think he's made more progress in that, particularly on the playoff stage. And he's gotten credit for starting with the series. Minnesota lost to Denver, I thought was sort of a landmark series for him, the last three or four games of it. But last night, I don't know if you watched that Nick spurs game, but last night was, I think, an example of why you talk to people on all these other Eastern Conference teams of like, yeah, we're not, like, we don't view the Knicks as this juggernaut that we can't compete with because the spurs down the stretch with Wemby out, we're just like ran pick and roll at Cat and Brunson every single time down the floor. Cat sat back in a Drop. I've talked about it a million times. I don't think Kat in a Drop is an obstacle at all. And I don't know what the answer is. There are a bunch of different answers that you've got to use, but they didn't use any of them, and I don't think it matters. It's a regular season game, but the spurs lit them up down the stretch in the paint because Kat in a Drop is just not doing anything.
- [58:06]
Adam Morris
Yeah, I mean, I feel like I understand where teams are coming from in terms of, like, not being afraid necessarily of the Knicks because that's been the biggest problem for them, you know, with their defense. It's. How do you build a defense centered around. And you're right, Cat has improved, but it's still not.
- [58:23]
Zach Lowe
And no Mitchell Robinson last night, which is the end. No Josh Hart. Huge deal. Huge deal.
- [58:28]
Adam Morris
Big, big pieces for them. But it's, you know, but it doesn't matter with. Even if those guys on the floor, teams in the playoffs are going to go after Brunson and Cat over and over again, and then particularly Brunson. So I feel like they need to kind of figure out that answer and how are they going to deal with that? And it's. It's in that vein where, where I think teams are like, okay, we can, we can. We know they're a challenge. We know they're tough, but it's not like they're. They're unstoppable. It's not like we have to play our perfect, perfect, perfect game to beat this team. I feel like there's a lot of confidence within the east in the sense of it feeling wide open. And when they look at the Knicks, who I think you're right, it. Consensus to come out, it's almost by default. The Cavs haven't been very good. The. The. The Bucks, obviously, with the honest injury. Phillies, obviously. Phil. Like, there's a level of, like, almost default. And nobody really wants to feel ballsy enough to say the Pistons. And I think it's. It's in that area where when you're looking at the Knicks, it's just. You always feel like something's gonna happen and. And it's gonna be a disaster for them. I don't. I don't. I believe in curses or anything like that, but you almost just feel like Halliburton's. The shot goes way up and then comes straight down.
- [59:45]
Tim Legler
And it.
- [59:46]
Adam Morris
Like there's always some weird sort of jinx around them in. In that sense. And it's a. A almost somewhat of a tortured franchise to a degree. So you almost kind of are waiting for that. I know that from Knicks fans that are like, like, yeah, like, we're hyped, but at the same time, like, when's the other shoe gonna drop? But building a defense where you gotta focus on Brunson and Cat as, you know, like, that's hard. You could survive with one guy, but with two, it gets really difficult because once you put both of them in the pick and roll and you're. You're in a challenging situation now, even fully healthy now. Oh, geez. Got to find a way to rotate. Bridges has got to rotate. Hart or Robinson are there. Those three guys are in a scramble mode situation. And it's four on three after that. And so it becomes a bit challenging for them. So they got to kind of see that area has got to lift up a little bit more for them to inspire more fear in the east, where everybody's like, all right, yeah, this is going to be a genuine problem.
- [60:46]
Zach Lowe
I mean, look, I'm still picking the Knicks to make the finals, but I just. It's just what I hear. And, you know, let's pivot to another team that we all were high on before the season. The Cavs. I'm officially downgrading the Cavs con scale. We're back at Cavscon 3. They beat the spurs pretty handily, and they beat the Suns pretty handily at home last night. I think the spurs game was in San Antonio. So, like, that's a very, very good win. And I think the biggest change, it's very simple. Darius Garland Looks like Darius Garland. And it's not just that he's driving to the rim and he looks fast. He's got his snappiness back. Like he's an incredible change of pace, hesitation, keep the defense off balance kind of player. And he's really good at it. Because when he changes pace from slow to fast, he does it really, really fast. When he's healthy, it's like a jolt. It's jarring. And he's got that kind of for that, that speed in tight spaces. He's got it back. Now a skeptic would say, can we see it for a month? Can we see it for six weeks? Because we never see it for a month and six weeks. And I get that. And then Jared Allen has showed a pulse in the last two games. You combine that with their starting Dean Wade over DeAndre Hunter, I think that's the correct starting five. Until Max Schuss comes back. I just think having a lower usage, he's not a roving shooter like Strus or Sam Merrill, but a guy who's basically going to be a 3 and D guy. I think that's the correct fit. Mobley's back, he's starting. But Garland and Allen just haven't been anything like the versions like you. If you told somebody who just started following the NBA this year that both of those guys have made all star teams in the past, they'd be like, really? Is the east that bad? I know you're telling me the east is that bad. Well, they look like themselves and I do think it's that simple. And we're at CavsCon 3 and if the Cavs keep playing like this, I'll put it this way, Mo. I had a discussion last night at Air Canada Center. Just poll question, one of these fun NBA person poll questions. Pick the four conference semifinalists in the east right now, the four teams that win a first round playoff series in the East. Who do you think it's going to be? Do you want to answer that question? You want me to tell you what I said?
- [63:00]
Adam Morris
Let me answer it and then let's see where you end up.
- [63:03]
Zach Lowe
Because I think it was just snaptake right now, January 1, 2026 is starting. We flash forward to the second round. Not who's playing who, just who are the four teams right now.
- [63:13]
Adam Morris
I would just go Knicks, Pistons are locks to me.
- [63:16]
Zach Lowe
I'm.
- [63:19]
Adam Morris
Like, part of me doesn't want to do it, but I think Orlando. And then I'm going to go Cavs. I think that's the four for me, that would, right now, January 1st would be my snap judgment.
- [63:32]
Zach Lowe
We had the same exact four teams, New York in Detroit, just, you know, Detroit. Even if you're a skeptic, and I'm not, they're going to have an easy first round playoff series unless something crazy happens with the Cavs. I think the Cavs and the Magic will get right and we'll talk about them. You know, I just, you know, it's been a rough season for the Cavs and I don't know that they're going to be able to really alter their roster because of the second apron restrictions that they're facing. I've talked before about this idea that Garland and Allen could somehow net you Giannis and you'd have to involve a third team. And like how that is just gone now. And the Mobley Giannis trade conversation that Bill has, I think Bill was really the first one to be on this. Not that there's been any conversation to be clear. Just like the general theory of it. I think that's interesting. But if they keep playing well, I think their default stance is going to be conservative with Mobley. But I, I look, it looks, they're a really good team when they're humming and they look like they're humming again and it's, it's just, to me, it's just as simple as when Garland is Garland. They're just a completely different team.
- [64:39]
Adam Morris
They're. I'm, I'm with you on it. I think first off, like, I, I listened to the pod after Christmas Day when you were talking with Goldsberry and you kind of were, were a little bit positive about that loss against the Knicks. I was down on it and, and, and my view of it was more like, here we go again. This is, they get killed on the boards. It's, it's the same stuff over and over. Like, when are they going to change? But what I will say is what I've seen in the last few games is it helps with Garland and Allen playing much better and at their level. But I think ultimately too is just as an offense as a whole, the ball is flying all over the place. It's snappy, it's going all over the court. In that win against the spurs, you know, they had a lot of cuts. There was a lot of movement there. Mobley gets doubled, gets the ball out. Mitchell cuts right off the lane and gets a bucket. It's, it's, it's all the other things that they're kind of creating. They're getting more More of that offense we saw last year where the ball was flying, cutting and smart actions behind everything. I was beginning to see again. And I've seen in the last few games where I'm beginning to feel better about the Cavs, where I'm like, all right, calendar change, maybe that's going to be the upswing for them. And now they'll start to kind of whatever. The first two months of the season is out. Their four guys are back to being normal and, and rolling, and I think we'll start to see them climb. So I'm a little bit more positive about them right now in. After having seen them play the last few games. Whereas after Christmas Day, I was like, man, I'm done.
- [66:08]
Zach Lowe
I think the most interesting team that was not in our top four, our four conference semifinalists, in theory picks, is Boston at 20 and 12, sniffing the best point differential in the East. They're almost even with New York and Detroit with the Tatum possibility maybe or maybe not looming. You know, we'll see. I think they're very interesting. We didn't talk about Philly, you know, Embiid. He tried to sell foul youth the other day. I fell out of my chair. Almost fell out of my chair. They finally won a game with him and PG and Maxi altogether, they're. They're solid. It's hard for me to believe Miami has been wildly up and down. And then Milwaukee, they lose to Washington again by one. With Giannis, they're 14 and 20. And all the noise continues to be that the Bucks want to buy for all the reasons that we're talking about right now, because they're not. If we can get one other guy around Giannis, one better player, one better number two guy, you know, we're not really scared of anybody. I just. The team plainly is not good enough. But if they, if they can hover, if they can hover, if they can. Step one is get in the plan, pass Atlanta past Chicago, start getting up towards, like, eighth and start getting up towards sixth, maybe even extricate yourself from the play. And although they're. They're what, six games out in the last column?
- [67:35]
Adam Morris
That's.
- [67:35]
Zach Lowe
That's not nothing. I do think they would like to. Unless Giannis ever just makes it black and white for them and asks out explicitly, which he does not appear to have really done, I do expect them to try to buy. And if they continue that stance for another month, to me, they're just like I, I when. When Dallas fired Nico Harrison and I went through all the fake Anthony Davis trades. I said right away you've got to look at teams that are desperate to win and underperforming and can bundle some expiring salary. And I said like I'd look at the Bucks, I'd look at the Clippers for Anthony Davis and I still would for those reasons. But to me, if the Bucks continue on this stance of bye, bye, bye, they're just a lock to end up with one of these sort of distressed high leverage, high salary players like a Levine, Michael Porter Jr. I mentioned AD, I mean Harden I had mentioned in the past as a theoretical fit. I think that's probably gone. But because they're just not. If you can't beat the Wizards, you're just not, not good enough. But twice, you know, this is why I keep telling Bill I do agree with him that I think, and I've always said this is the most likely resolution of this is in the summer when teams have a little bit more flexibility to trade, when Giannis has a clear yes or no line of demarcation with the extension that they can put in front of him in the off season. But I'm not closing the door on an in season trade, especially if the Bucks just continue to make up no ground in the standings now with Giannis even back earlier than earlier than expected. I don't know who the team is. We've gone through all the teams a million times. I but, but I'm not going to close the door completely on an in season trade.
- [69:24]
Adam Morris
You can't. And here's the honest reason why. After last season when Luca gets traded out of nowhere, everything's on the table. The door is always a little bit of jar. I'm just going to even whatever said in the media, I will always believe until the trade deadline passes, there's a possibility that, that something comes together. Like you said, a team gets desperate, turns around or you know, the Bucks don't move up or anything like that. But when you just look at this team with Milwaukee, like for me, what I'm worried about with them saying we're just, we're going to be buyers now. And I think, you know, I feel like Jeremy Grant's been at it, you.
- [70:00]
Zach Lowe
Know, been he never plays. When is the last time Jeremy Grant played? Like he's out again for this extended period of time.
- [70:07]
Adam Morris
But like it's every time like there's a name that they mention. I'm not like, okay, now you get him and that's you're going to win the East. Like there's not like there hasn't been anything that's moved me to the point where, like, okay, I'm going to dig myself a deeper hole, hoping that this will be like, this is a Hail Mary play and I feel like it's not going to work out. Like, that's where I'm kind of just pessimistic with the team and any move that they can make right now, I just don't see anything that goes, yeah, all right, now, now the Knicks should be worried right now the Pistons should be worried that you guys are, you got this and now you're going to be coming and you might be a first round matchup in the plane. Like, it's. I, I don't feel like the Bucks are there to that point and I feel like now they're just throwing good money after bad money in this situation. So that's where I'm really kind of worried about them. When we get to the trade deadline and they become the noise of them being more of a buyer grows.
- [71:06]
Zach Lowe
I think it's bad money after bad money after worse money. At this point, with Dame on their books for a thousand years and Miles Turner also on their books for a thousand years, I just want to say I did I mentioned Michael Porter Jr. And I talked about earlier this week about I sort of made the case for why I wouldn't be urgently trying to trade Michael Porter Jr. If I were the Nets. A he's been awesome. I think he deserves to be at least in the All Star conversations. Tough to make it when your team is 10 and 20. But he's been very good. And you do run into people around the league who are like, who will pooh, pooh it by thinking, well, someone's got to score on a bad team. I don't watch the Nets and think he's just a pure good stats bad team guy. He's been efficient. He's playing team basketball. Yeah, he's getting them up. But they this is not a case of just, you know, random guy on a bad team piling up empty numbers. Not to me, anyway. And he's only 27 and I don't think his next contract is going to break the bank because everybody knows the medical concerns on him and he's a good fit with the Nets young guys. All of that said, I do think if they can sell high on him, I bet I would predict they would. That's all I want to say about Michael Portager, because I just think, you know, they got a pick for taking them in. If they can flip him for Another pick at good value. I think the Nets probably would do that, but that's just me.
- [72:25]
Adam Morris
And it's a good, and it's a good pick though it's not like 28, 20, you know, like late, late first round. I think it's like a good pick that they feel confident will translate and be like at least mid first round.
- [72:38]
Zach Lowe
Or just, or just a pick that's far enough into the future that it has this sort of sheen. Like the. I think they got a 2032 from Denver which is like who the hell knows if Jokic is still. If he's a jockey by that point or whatever. Whatever you call the guy who sits in the, in the cart for harness racing. And the other thing I will say is I mentioned at the end of last pod that my last pod that I had a scorching Heat take that I was just not mentally prepared to put out there. This was the take. Like I do watch the Heat sometimes. Surprising things happen in the NBA all the time. Though I do watch the Heat sometimes trying to figure out this Bam Ware fit. I think Ware has a chance to be really good now. He's been in the absolute perfect developmental place for him and is he going to continue along this path? No one is quite certain about that. It just burrowed into my head of would they ever put Bam in a package? Would they ever just do it to sort of clarify their books, clarify their roster, sort of pivot to a younger direction? I've never thought they would because having written a gigantic profile of Bam, I know exactly what he is to that franchise. He is the standard bearer. He's the culture bearer. I don't think there's not one part of them that would want to do it. Other teams I know have for sure asked about Bam and been told hell no. And the wild card that you also have to consider is as they sniff around at Giannis and other star players, all of those star players are going to want to play with Bam. So I think I have to nix my own hot take. And I do think the Heat will more than sniff around the Giannis situation. By the way, my favorite, I also, I think the warriors will sniff around the honest situation. I don't think they have enough. I don't think they have enough to get it, but their argument would be it would be well if we gave you four. Three first round picks in a piece of the other pick we owe the Wizards. So four first round picks, let's call it. We're old. Our picks may be super valuable Take our picks plus Kaminga like blah blah. I don't, I don't see it. But my other favorite fake Giannis trade that I made up and then Bill was angry that I took credit that I made it up before him, jokingly angry and then I realized that it's not really possible was Banchero for Giannis. So let's talk about Paolo Banchero. There's been a lot of noise about the Magic being better with Bankero off the floor for four consecutive years. Tom Haberstrough just wrote another piece on it. The Bankero Franz Wagner fit has been ultra scrutinized, including by me, the Magic surging on offense when Banchero was injured and Franz was healthy this year, three guards plus Franz being a pretty zippy, better spacing, more movement kind of model. And then Bankero comes back, Franz gets hurt almost right away and Banchero's kind of been feeling out these games like a guy who watched the team develop a different identity without him and is trying to figure out how to assert himself as a dominant scorer within that identity. In some games he's been pretty deferential even with Franz injured. Then he's been more assertive a little bit of late. He had a buzzer beat a last second game winning shot against the Pacers last night. I liked the idea of Bankero for Giannis because if I am going to try to get off Bankero before the league is really onto the fact that he hasn't been that efficient and I've been a little bit more bullish than a Banchero, mostly because of what he's done in the playoffs. But if I am going to do that, if I'm Orlando, it needs to be a deal that gets me talent that can win right now and if I'm Milwaukee, I have to ask myself is there a single better young player that I can get than Paolo Banchero and a Giannis steel. Now a couple of things have happened. The Bucks are telling everyone we're buying, not selling and I learned right away Bankero's poison pilled because he just signed his extension. He's very hard to trade. But I am interested in having the discussion with you about what are you seeing with Paolo Banchero. Where are you with the Bankero Franz Wagner fit and like what's, what's, what's your just take on this general situation.
- [76:49]
Adam Morris
I think the first thing to start out and I watched that game yesterday and then I went back and watched some of his stuff against Toronto the other night And I, the one thing I say with him, it frustrates me with actually it's more scheme and coaching issue. They don't do him any favors with the situations they put him in. I find him a lot of time in ISO in that Indiana game against Pascal Siakam. At ISO in the Toronto game, a lot of times it's ISO against Scotty Barnes. It's not like they, they haven't really put in anything that creates opportunities for him to go at mismatches. And even when these guys set screens like they're terrible screens, like this is, this is, you know, like Wendell Carter Jr. Doesn't hold the screen long enough, it doesn't create a switch opportunity. I, I, I'm not seeing a lot of that stuff. And then I kind of dove in a little bit into the numbers kind of last year and this year. And the one thing, that one number, that one shot in particular that stood out to me, his shot from 10 to 14ft right mid range, everybody, you know, we analytics guys are probably super upset that I'm even bringing it up that like, but he shot 44% last year. He's shooting 30% on those this year. And I think that's like a, I mean that's the drop, right? Like that's where you're like the flow doesn't look right, doesn't look rhythm. I think he's in a very, he's, I think, very confused about where he fits in the offense, you know, the way it looks. But I think you're right. He saw everything that happened when he was out and wanted it to continue when he came back. And I don't think he fully understands how and where to do that. I'm not off the Franz Paulo duo. I think that can really work. I think with Bane, I think it adds a nice element, but I just want to see it more them play off of each other and with each other more instead of just kind of like, hey, we're going to just give Paolo a few ISO possessions and it almost feels like grenades sometimes. It's like he gets it against these top, you know, the prime defender and it's like seven seconds left on the shot clock. Like now you're at a disadvantage as the offensive player right off the bat. Like I feel like there's still room for him. His three point shooting is not something I'm ever really going to buy. I mean it's really, the percentage is terrible right now, but I think like it's where we're at with him. I think we need a little bit more patience but I want to see a little bit more work within the offense, an offensive system put in that will actually help him, you know, and create more mismatches for him because I don't think they do him any favors when it gets to that.
- [79:26]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, I saw his recent comments, I think it was in the Athletic about how he has seen the narrative, everybody's favorite word narrative about how he and Franz can't fit and how he thinks it's BS and this and that. And I know people with the Magic are sensitive to this idea and sort of defensive of Paolo and my reaction in conversations with with people around the league has been to Palo's comments, etc. Has been like hey look man, I'm sorry the numbers are what they are and a couple of things are true. True thing number one is you take too many jump shots and you don't make enough of them to justify how many you take. I don't know what the solution to that is because make more make more threes does not necessarily appear to be in the cards. I think he is underperforming on mid range shots and that's always going to be part of his game and that's okay because he can draw help into the post and facilitate from there. He's taking fewer threes this year by a lot and not making them and it just feels like that is stalled out at this point. And thing number two that's true is the Magic indisputably discovered something with Anthony Black who is breaking out as a two way player plus Desmond Bain, plus Jalen Suggs, three guards and Franz, they leaned on that hard when Paolo got hurt and the offense just looked fast, the floor looked open, decisions were being made faster because Franz, although he's also not a great three point shooter, he's a little better than Paolo, more willing to take them than Paolo and a quicker decision maker and ball mover than Paolo is. And how does Paolo fit into that? Well, we don't really know because as soon as he came back Franz got hurt and why I and the one thing I will grant the what? The one thing I will grant the Palo defenders and I'm I'm in between is Paolo has barely gotten to share the floor this season with Suggs in particular and those three guards plus Palo in very limited minutes. So no, Franz has been really, really good for the Magic too. They're starting lineup with Suggs, Paolo Bank, Franz, Wendell Carter Jr. And Bane has been lights out and so I'm withholding all judgment on like this is this can't work or this doesn't work very well until I see all the best players together and particularly Suggs, Bankero Wagner.
- [81:57]
Tim Legler
Now.
- [81:59]
Zach Lowe
I do wish there was a world in which you could play Paolo at center and so you can play those three guards, plus Franz, plus Paolo, I think you could dabble in that. But defensively I just don't, not sure that that holds up. But I do think that's an interesting card I would play if I were Jamal Mosley. But you know, when they all play together again, I don't really know what the best solution is because Paolo is a spacer, 10% more of the time is not really going to be functional. Paolo as taking as many jump shots he's taking now is not really working. I guess to your point, the solution has got to be everybody plays within this sort of fast moving, quick hitting 0.5 system and you find eight seconds into the possession where to leverage Paolo's size, speed, screening ability, more ball screens, all that. Because I, he is like, you'll find analytics focused front office people who will just be like, oh, Paolo's just not good. And I'll be like, with respect, he's clearly very good at basketball. Like you don't score 25 points a game in the playoffs against elite defenses and draw double teams. If you're like not good, he's clearly good. And I do think there's a world in which this can work, but they got to find it soon because I think this team could, could make a run, could. I think this team could make the finals if they figured everything out. And Black, Black Sleep has been one of the big under discussed stories in the league in the last three weeks.
- [83:29]
Adam Morris
Yeah, I mean there's some stuff, I forget if it was Indiana or Toronto the game, but he had a black had a little like give and go action with Paolo that led to really athletic dunk like just from when he took off. But there's a lot of stuff there. This team has a lot of the talent like that that we look at and we go like this team can compete in the playoffs. They've been through the playoffs the past few years have gone to game Sevens have gone through it like they're ready to take that leap. It's just they gotta find that system. Zach. It's. This is a team to me that screams more than anything else, like this needs to be a system team and everybody needs to buy into the system. We need to see everybody needs to be moving more cutting More screening and playing into that stuff. And I just want to see that stuff come together because they have the offensive talent and IQ with a lot of these guys that I think you'll be able to get some great stuff out of it. But you got to get something in place because right now it just feels, I feel like it's really unfair to Paolo when they just give him something in a stagnant set and then he's got. And then it's again, it's Pascal, it's Scotty Barnes, it's, you know, when they play the Knicks it'll be OG and an obi. It'll be like he's got to go up against these top level defenders which sure he might win those matchups sometimes, but he's going to lose those also. And that's something that the defense will take and I think that system where I want to see them find more opportunities for him in movement, in flow, in a system, I'm just going to keep screaming system at the Magic and if they need to do something and.
- [85:01]
Zach Lowe
If you're throwing the on off numbers in Paolo's face, you should acknowledge that, you know the Suggs variable and the best players not playing together variable very often and this year their offense is actually a tick better with Paolo on the floor. It's the defense that has taken a step, a step back with him on the floor has been better with him off the floor. And I'm not sure there's enough information to include like that's because of his limitation. Actually he's a pretty good defensive player. They've had a weird up and down defensive system but I trust them at the end of the floor. All this to say I do think there is an issue here. Part of it is Franz and Paolo are similar size so any two man action between them teams will try to switch. It's your job as an offense to make that switch more difficult to make by moving fast, slipping screens, being unpredictable. And although Franz is shooting 36% from 3 this year, which is good, he's not going to be treated like a three point shooter at Norris Paolo and so that just, you know, you got to get creative. But he's shown me too much in the playoffs for me to be that concerned about it. I just want to see the best players together. You mentioned Wendell Carter Jr. Who is fine like he's a perfectly serviceable center. You know I mentioned them as like a not like theoretically could they make a play for Anthony Davis kind of team when Nico Harrison got fired and Just concluded it's just to make the money work is too difficult unless you include Suggs, and you don't want to include Suggs because Suggs is really good and really valuable when available. It did it. It did make me think again. Someone suggested that deal to me the other day and it made me. You know. AD has been all over the news. He's coming back, I think tonight for the Mavs from his latest injury, his latest groin injury earlier than I thought he would, which is great. I don't know, man. Again, I'd keep an eye on the Bucks and the Clippers just for the desperation factor. The Hawks have been mentioned. I don't think the Hawks are trading are putting Reese's Shay in an Anthony Davis deal. I talked already about the Hawks earlier this week. I made my mayor culpa on the Hawks. I don't really see what the point of them trading for Anthony Davis is if they're giving up a real piece of their feature like that. I'm not. Like. To what end? Right. I don't. I don't get it. I think the warriors have been linked to them. I think there's. I think there'd be some tepid interest there. But again, getting to the money requires Draymond or Butler, and I'm not sure that that's something that they're really game for. And they've won five out of six, by the way. That Toronto loss that I was at was super dispiriting, but they've been winning. They've been winning enough games to stay afloat.
- [87:38]
Adam Morris
It's the most miserable five out of six, though, in the way it feels. Right. Like it does.
- [87:43]
Zach Lowe
Like I was. That's true.
- [87:45]
Adam Morris
It's. It's, it's. It.
- [87:47]
Tim Legler
Because like you said, it's.
- [87:48]
Adam Morris
When you look at it like, yeah, damn, they've won five out of six, but it feels like they've lost five out of six in the way. Everything you see in the vibe with that team, it's. They're frustrating in that sense of just trying to kind of pinpoint where they're at.
- [88:04]
Zach Lowe
And then we'll just see what these other teams in Anthony Davis. I don't know. I just. I said it, but it was obvious at the time I said it. Again, when you go got fired. Just get ready. The delta between what you gave up for Anthony Davis and what you're going to get back for him in a trade is going to shatter the world record for biggest trade Delta gap in the history of the NBA and maybe professional Sports. It's not going to be, it's not going to be great for the Mets. And I don't really know what they should. I don't feel passionately one way or there like what they should do. They're sort of similar to the Jazz and how aggressively do they want to go for a high pick? And then, you know, do you have a Trae Young team? Mo, can you solve the Trae Young riddle for me, Zach?
- [88:47]
Adam Morris
I've tried for years. Like, I haven't felt like there's a place for him. Before the Luka trade, I thought maybe the Lakers, like, that was an area where I thought that there'd be. I haven't found a team where, like, you, you're a Trey Young away and you take a level up. Like, that's the, one of the hardest things in terms of watching his game. And it's, it's frustrating to kind of watch because, like, you, you mentioned it when you talked about it. I think last spot, it's, you know, like, really the most outstanding skill is the passing. You know, when you look at the numbers, just immediate. He's a little bit of a mediocre shooter. He's not offense. The offense has to be tilted and played his way, and it's not even good enough in that sense. And I think that's kind of the challenge. I don't know if there's a Trey Young team that makes sense, where you just go, like, cool. I see it. They get lifted up. This team's going to be rolling. You know that now they have their, their guy. We're going to see the path forward. I, I'm, I would be frustrated for him, but in that sense because, like, I just don't know where it is. And it's a riddle that's. It's gone beyond this year. It's been the past few years. I've never felt like there was a place that made sense. People talked. San Antonio a while back. I didn't like that match with him.
- [90:07]
Zach Lowe
And when I think, I think that was real ish. I think, I think before the Fox thing fell into their lap, that they, they talked, they had some talks, internal talks at the very least about it. Yeah.
- [90:20]
Adam Morris
And then like, Orlando was a place that I think was talked about for a while. Like, I don't know where he fits and in what system. You can kind of plug him in and just feel like, okay, we're going to get lifted up and get moving. I think the Trey Young conundrum is a tough one there.
- [90:37]
Zach Lowe
Yeah. Bill, we've talked about the desperation teams like Clippers, but, I mean, Harden has been. Is their point guard. I don't see at the point of a swap between those two. And I think the Clippers are going to. I do think the Clippers are going to. Now that they've righted the ship and won five in a row, they're going to chase the play and they're going to try to, like, let's get back into the play. And Milwaukee, I've mentioned. I mean, Sack. Sack is. Is the wild card of the entire. If I were the Grizzlies, like, Jaws, had a couple of good games in a row, I would be calling the. I'd be calling the vec. I'm skipping Scott Perry. I'm going right to vec. Hey, have you seen Ja. Electric, right?
- [91:09]
Adam Morris
Like.
- [91:09]
Zach Lowe
Oh, absolutely. Electric. I think now might be the time for you. I mean, we love him, but now might be the time for you guys to strike. By the way, Jaren Jackson Jr. I'm just monitoring that situation, that's all. I'll say. Utah was mentioned for Trey at points, but Keonte George has become so. I don't know. We'll see. I will cede the floor to you on this. You wanted to talk about the Lakers and you wanted to talk about their offense, because all the focus has been on how bad they've been defensively, how bad their numbers are with LeBron and Luke on the floor defensively and. But you want to hit their offense. Go, yeah.
- [91:46]
Adam Morris
So, like, when we focused on their defense, the funny part about it to me was I just kind of looked at everybody going like, we knew this going into the season. We knew this was going to be a bad defensive team. I didn't. There was. To me, there was no viable way in which they can defend. It was their offense has to outscore you. They're going to win games based on their offense being great. And that's really kind of how it started in November, right? When you look at this, look at the splits from November to December, offensive rating was fifth. They were rolling. It looked good.
- [92:18]
Tim Legler
They had.
- [92:19]
Adam Morris
Listen, I know LeBron wasn't playing for a lot of it and that, you know, Reeves was cooking all that stuff. But the thing that looks different because when you go from November to December, the offensive rating goes from fifth at around like, 120 to 114, and that's about 18th for the month of December. The offense just stopped moving, right. Like when they were playing in November, there was a system. There was luka was working off ball and going on, on the ball and then, you know, getting off early. And then there was opportunities for Reeves to find stuff. They had Laravia set in the back screen and then slipping and then there was all these things and everybody was moving. And then when LeBron came back, he kind of took some of the stuff that Laravia was doing and was doing the same thing, setting that, that pin down and slipping and getting dunked, all of those things. They had a three man action going at the elbows and all that stuff. All that's been gone in December. And part of it for me is I feel like if you can get your offense back on track, you can at least create a little more motivation defensively. Right. Like I feel like the defense will get. And again I will. It will always, they will always be a bad defense to me with the way this team is set up. But like I said, their defensive effort will improve if you can get their offense on track. And when you go back and watch it, they're playing slower. I think their pace went from like 100 something to 98 in November to December. Just looking at those splits like it's, it's staggering to me. Like the offense has been, we're highlighting the defense, but the offense is a massive problem and that it's become very stagnant. Again, very slow and that's not the way this team needs to play. When they were rolling early in the season, they had a lot of movement in that stuff. They had a lot of stuff in there where I was going like JJ's coaching his ass off with this offense and now it's back to just bring the ball up slowly. Let's run some pick and roll and hope we get a matchup and hope either Luka or LeBron bails us out. That's the disaster for me because that I expected to be better and it's.
- [94:19]
Zach Lowe
Been a bit frustrating and Reeves has been hurt and Ruiz missed some games and those are two plus offensive players for what their roles are, Reeds especially. But yeah, look, I. The Lakers are 20 and 11 with a negative point differential. I don't remember the last time I've seen a team this far into the season that far over.500 with a negative point differential. They just look not good enough right now and to compete with these other teams in the West. And I don't know what the remedy for that really is. People are going to throw fake Austin Reaves trades into the trade machine until February 5th. My bet would be the Lakers keep him. I Think here's my Austin Reeves bet they keep him. They resign him over the summer. I'll even be more specific than that. I bet he takes slightly less than the max to stay in la, even though I think he could get the max other places. That's that. This is just my sort of like six months out prediction for how this could resolve itself. And then I think you make a decision once that contract is signed, once you see what this team looks like with Luca plus Reeves plus whoever, and you've got potential cap flexibility in a summer or two. By the way, the Clippers are also aiming for that same timetable. As everybody knows. By the way, everyone's like, the Clippers can't take on this money in 2027 because they want to. If they, if they were to package like the Collins Bogdanovich for this sort of desperation swing at AD or whoever this theoretical player is, why can't they? They have nothing on the books. They have like Zubots on the books in 2027 and that's it. They can take somebody on if they want to. But anyway, then you make a decision for the Lakers. Does Reeves plus Luka plus whatever else is here. Is that the path in the Luke era, or do we then look to flip Reeves when he has a bigger salary and could net us more stuff? I think ultimately that's the sort of timetable that I'm on and I. We'll see where LeBron is. But yeah, I know don't. They just don't look good enough, man. I don't know what else to tell.
- [96:18]
Adam Morris
You about it and it would be a mistake. I think the trade Reeves right now. I think your, your path is the route to take. I think it's, you know, it's not going to, he's not going to bring back something that's again, going to put you on the level of even the, the Rocket spurs tier. Like, they're, they're, they're, they're pretty far behind in that sense. I don't know what you do. I think just build upon with this. This was always kind of a gap year for me with the Lakers, right. In terms of. They didn't do much in the offseason. They got DeAndre and I have to do a little bit of a mea Copa there because I was very deferential to you about, like, yeah, like, I'm not Nate and Guy, I don't think he's, he's. He drives me insane as a player. This is mainly my friends yelling at me in my group chat after listening to me talk about it with you of like, he just has to be okay. I don't think he's good enough. I don't think he's good enough as a roller. I don't think he's good enough as a rebounder. All that stuff, we're seeing it now. I they didn't do anything this offseason. Really to the point where it made me go like, okay, this is a gap year for them. Figure it out. New ownership coming in. Let's. They're going to kind of do their, their own calculus and change things up. I. I'm not surprised. But they got to keep Reeves at the end of the day. They got to keep Reeves to at least have that trade ship in the future. Because even now, looking forward in the future, they don't have one. They don't have a piece, they don't have a move to make at that point. They were not going to trade Luca in the future. LeBron's 41 no trade clause. We don't even know if he's going to be back next year. They need at least keep him, extend him or resign him. Big number, all that stuff so that they have a move to make down the road.
- [98:04]
Zach Lowe
Mo, can you surf? Do you know how to surf?
- [98:07]
Adam Morris
I'm taking a surfing lesson this week. That's going to be my journey into surfing.
- [98:12]
Zach Lowe
One of the all time great random characters, the Paul Rudd surf instructor from Forgetting, Sarah Marshall, who just makes no sense. Do less. Nope.
- [98:20]
Adam Morris
Nope.
- [98:20]
Zach Lowe
Do less. Well, see, you did something there. No. Well, you have to do something. I don't know how you write that scene anyway. Motakil Promote, promote. Tell us where we can find all your stuff.
- [98:32]
Adam Morris
First, check out the podcast with me and Jared Dubin, the Double Dribble podcast. Then this Saturday I will be on NBA tv. A bunch of halftimes. They have a bunch of games. We're going to be doing halftime and post game shows. It's going to be me, Alexis Morgan and Zach Harper. We'll take you through all that fun stuff and enjoy that stuff and make sure you're checking out offside. We're going to have the app up soon. That's where I'm putting a bunch of videos. I just dropped the power rankings yesterday and that's where I drop a little some more fun stuff in terms of what I think is going on in the NBA.
- [99:08]
Zach Lowe
Mo Takeil, thank you for your time. Happy 2026, my friend.
- [99:11]
Adam Morris
Same to you.
- [99:13]
Zach Lowe
All right, that's it for this week on the Zach Lowe Show. We're going to be back Monday. Thank you to Adam Morris and Mo Takeil for their time and for their insight coming on. Thank you to Mike, Billy and Jonathan on production. Thanks to you all for listening to and or watching the Zach Low Show. We'll be back next week. The NBA rolls on. Happy New year. Must be 21 or over in President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over in President D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem call 1-800- gambler or visit rg-help.com, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org and Mary Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York.