← The Zach Lowe Show
The Zach Lowe Show
Is SGA the Best Player in the League? Plus, Tatum’s Return and All-Defensive Team Picks.
01:42:18
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- [00:00]
A
This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. When you pull off a superior play, like blocking a winning shot to push the game into overtime, it feels good. It even gives you shivers sometimes. All the best moments are served ice cold like that. Just like Michelob Ultra, the official beer partner of the NBA, Ultra is a superior light beer with only 95 calories and a crisp, refreshing taste. And you know what makes it even more superior? Michelob Ultra is giving fans like you the chance to win some incredible prizes, including courtside seat tickets. Michelob Ultra Superior is worth playing for. Enter now@michelob ultra.com Courtside Michelob Ultra Courtside 25 to 26. No purchase necessary. Open U.S. residence 21 or over. Begins on October 1, 2025 and ends on June 30, 2026. Multiple entry periods. See official rules@michelob ultra.com courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes and. Coming up on the Zach Lowe show, we got a lot of ground to cover. But first reminder, the Zach Lowe show is coming live to the Fillmore theater in Denver, Colorado on April 13th. Tickets are on sale now. Right now. Get them before they're gone@theringer.com events. We're going to Denver April 13th. All right, John Hollinger is here. What a game last night in Oklahoma City between the Thunder and the Nuggets. Shay Gildrich Alexander ties Wilt Chamberlain's record for 20 point games, makes two dagger threes, two cements himself as the MVP favorite. Is he also just the best player in the league right now? How worried are we about Denver? They're down to sixth in the West. They just can't seem to stop. Oklahoma City. Yeah, guys are out. Well, guys are out for both teams. We talk about that game and the MVP and SGA and Jokic and all of it. Then we talk about Jayson Tatum and the Celtics and the state of the east up and down the standings. And then Jon and I pick our all defense teams. Tentatively. Rough draft. You only get 10 spots. We have a lot of guys in common. I think we had seven of 10 in common, which is actually less than I thought we would have in common. But it's always fun to talk defense. We like to spotlight defense here on the Zach Lowe Show. And finally Nick Friedel comes to talk about the warriors. They're 500. Steph's hurt. Porzingis is back, but then didn't play last night against the Jazz. They're just clinging to. I don't even know what they're clinging to. They're ninth in the west, they're 500, they're in the 910 bracket of the play and they really can't get any worse than that. Based on who's tanking, we talk about the big decisions ahead, Draymond green, Steve Kerr, LeBron James, and whether the warriors can vault back into relevancy next season. And in between, I just watched a lot of games and I got a lot of thoughts and we get 10 minutes of Zach's random thoughts about basketball teams around the league. That's all coming up on the Zach Low Show. The Zach Lowe show is brought to you by FanDuel. Things are really heating up on the court and FanDuel is the best place to bet on all the epic matchups during the NBA season. Build a same game parlay for a shot at a bigger payout or or try live betting and jump into the action after tip off. And don't forget, with FanDuel you get paid instantly when you win. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app now and play your game 21 over in President of Select States 18 or over in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800- GAMBLER call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatinc. Welcome to the Zach Lowe Show. Look who it is. John Hollinger of the Athletic, the greatest of all time. How you doing sir?
- [03:32]
B
I'm doing great. Thank you so much for having me on the show.
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A
We got a lot to talk about. There's a wild playoff race in the east now for six. The Sixers are are are down to eighth. The west is getting interesting almost across the board. Jayson Tatum is back. The Lakers are winning without LeBron James. Like kind of a lot. But we have to start with maybe the game of the year last night. Oklahoma City Denver 3 Dort vs. Jokic 2. Another flagrant foul and just the two best players in the league giving us an Amazing duel. Jokic 32, 13 and 14. A triple double. SGA1 ups him 35 points, 15 assists, 0 turnovers, 9 rebounds, 14 of 21 from the floor and two almost identical step back threes sandwiched over a Jokic slash. Jamal Murray four point play to win the game. It's now three oh Oklahoma City over Denver for the season. Two of the games have been very close. There's been guys missing all across the board. Jalen Williams has missed every game. Wing Jalen Williams has missed every game. Big Jalen Williams certainly did not miss last night's game. It did not miss very many shots. Thunder still two games up over the spurs for the one seed Denver. It's not been great for Denver since Jokic came back. They've basically been a 500 team for almost 40 games. Now they're down to six. I would like to start here. Mr. Hollinger, two questions for you. Did SGA cement the MVP last night? Number 1 and 1B. Is it time to just open the door and have the discussion? Is he now the best player in the NBA?
- [05:18]
B
Okay, let's, let's answer the first question first. I don't know if he quite slammed the door. First of all, he has to stay on the court, right.
- [05:25]
A
Both he and barring the eligibility stuff,
- [05:28]
B
dealing with a games played situation that could get tense if they have any setbacks. It's weird because statistically Jokic was off to such an amazing start before he got hurt that it seemed like he would just run away with it. And since he came back statistically, he hasn't quite been at the same level. And you wonder if there's some lingering effects from that injury. He's been a little bit more turnover prone. He hasn't shot it quite as well. He played, I mean that was one of his best games that he played last night actually, since he's returned. And then Shea, when you add these kind of high profile daggers definitely
- [06:08]
A
tend
- [06:09]
B
to have an exponential impact on a close MVP race. Right? He's, he's on the team with the best record. He's clearly the best player on it. They clearly, I mean, you see how different they are in the non Shay minutes. Even having A.J. mitchell back and having a little more shot creation in the lineup and as long as Jalen Williams is out, especially, I mean for them to not have Jalen Williams for basically the whole year and still have the league's best record and best point differential, I think is another feather in his cap. Although that also speaks to OKC's overall depth. So yeah, I would say he has the advantage right now, which I would, I would not have expected. At the midpoint of the season before Jokic got hurt, I thought, I thought Jokic was just going to have too, too much of an advantage in kind of the advanced stats and, and some of those areas to offset the difference in record. And now, now I think Shea's put himself probably back in front.
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A
Yeah, the advanced stats are now close enough. That again, very similar to last year. Ty goes to the team with by far the best record and they're now nine games up over Denver. In the loss column. And it was a. But you mentioned A.J. mitchell. We had a whole bunch of interesting characters coming back or falling off in last night's game. We had Aaron Gordon returning. Well, he's not returning. He's the second or third game back. But returning to this matchup and asserting himself right away as like, I'm just going to bully everybody on the court because Jalen Williams isn't here to deal with me. No, Chat's not on the back line. Chad Holmgren was out. Hardenstein was out. Like, I'm just going to go crazy. And it reminded you of his importance to Denver. So much of, of the focus on AG is Denver's kind of leaky defense and how many holes he can plug. He's just as important to them on offense because they just don't have anyone else who plays other than Jokic with that level of force and that. And like the Thunder just have a bunch of guys that he can put under the basket, including sga, which we had Cam Johnson. Another no show game where he's benched down the stretch in favor of a red hot Tim Hardaway Jr. That is a continued problem. And we had Shea just going off torching every single defender that the Nuggets put on him. Christian Brown got the assignment as he usually does, at least when Peyton Watson's not available and he just can't stay in front of Shay. Shea can pick and choose any defender he wants. And you like Bruce Brown, Spencer Jones, come on down. Jamal Murray, I'm going to blow by all of you to the point that the Nuggets were just like, we're just going to double team you over half court every time you have the ball because we just don't know what else to do. And he picked them apart with one of the best passing games of his career. And I thought it was fitting, John, that he ties the Will Chamberlain mark. He tied it, right? He didn't break it. He tied it for 20 points a game. And then the next two possessions, you know this is a scoring work, a hallowed scoring mark, a Wilt freaking Chamberlain scoring mark. The next two offensive possessions are driving kick three, I think to big Jalen Williams. And then the one after that, Shea sets a ball screen for A.J. mitchell, who's back, and he was bullying everyone in front of even like shoulder checked Aaron Gordon and hit a freaking step back three. And Shea's always been such a willing screener and it's been such an important little mini lever in Oklahoma City's offense. And then beyond all that, down the stretch, he disrupts multiple Aaron Gordon post ups. He's only credited with one steal and one block in the game. It felt like he had more than that and some of them may have been credited differently. He has the like defensive back steal late in the game where he runs back and intercepts a pass. And it just reminds you like this guy's a really good defensive player too. And last night he showed out in every possible way, every possible facet of his game on a night when the scoring was going to be the focus and the Nuggets were just basically willing to live with those step back threes. They're like, we're just. If you're going to, if you're going to see the double coming and just sort of preempt it by shooting a one on one step back three over Christian Brown. We have to live with that because we don't have any other answers. And they died by it. And I do think the MVP was like, you know, we've got all these minutes issues right, that in games, eligibility issues. There was a burgeoning Wemby Case which I think was going to have a little bit of momentum if this game had gone a different way. I think Lucas Case has been a little bit slept on because of all the. By the way much deserved attention on the antics and the, the just apoplectic reaction to every call and non call. He's been awesome offensively all season. He's played with a lot of zip in the last couple games without LeBron on both ends of the floor. I think there was that case, I mean Cade's case kind of fell off. There was a bunch of interesting stuff happening and there's always Jokic. I think Shay, if he didn't slam the door, he came pretty close last night and I think for the first time in a while, years, given that Jokic has looked 95% of himself since coming back from injury and, and worse defensively than even usual.
- [11:02]
B
Yeah, that. I mean I think there's a, I think there's a night where you're like Nicola, come on, like let's go.
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A
I think there's a, there's now the door is open for it's not just de facto is Nicola Jokic is the best player in the world and you don't have to think about it. I think the door is open. So I just. I'll ask you the second question again. Is Shea, is she just like the best, best. Forget most valuables. He's just the best, best player in the world right now.
- [11:27]
B
I think he has a great case for it. I think he might only have that case for about six more months. But because there's a, there's a French guy coming for his crown. But I really, right now, I think you have to give it to him. I thought the ending of that game was really interesting. I mean the three had never been a big part of Shay's game. Especially like a step back three like that and adding that range to that step back game that used to be much more of a 15, 18 foot operation for him. I mean it just A, it's A, it's a more valuable shot for him to get into than the midi, right? And then B, it just makes it so much harder for defenses to send extra players at him. As we saw on multiple occasions last night, like if you're Denver, like in a tie game, you're okay with the opponent taking a three point shot. The extra point isn't really worth anything. But for, for Shea, it wasn't three versus two. It was just this was the distance of shot that he can get to it. If he goes any closer, he's going to get double teamed and they're going to force the ball out of his hands.
- [12:29]
A
I think I have to think more about it because I've just been so like, Jokic is just the best. He's the best. He's the best player, like even last year he's like the best player. But Ty goes to the, to the team that's a million games ahead in the standings. If he's going to pass like this Shay 15 times, he's not going to get that every game. No, he never has any turnovers. Defensively he's not just a small plus, he's often a big plus. I think Jokic always has the size and vision edge and the size is going to get him all kinds of rebounding numbers that sort of lift up his advanced stats. I think it's a coin toss now for the first time in a long time and on a night like last night, Shea was the best player on the floor. He's averaging 35 a game against Denver in three games. He's shooting 60% on Tuesday. Just cannot do anything with him. And so before we move on, I do want to. This is now three games between two teams that if you had asked me who are the two best teams in the NBA going into the season, I would have said Oklahoma City and Denver. If they meet in the conference finals, I think that's going to be the De facto NBA Finals Denver is now sixth, but we've seen three games between these two teams, a variety of guys missing every game. And we've learned some things about the basketball matchup. And so I want to throw a bunch of ideas, a couple of quick ideas at you.
- [13:44]
B
Okay.
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A
When Denver's healthy, should they just start Peyton Watson and, and bring Cam Johnson off the bench, if not in general, then for this specific matchup to have him guard SGA and just deal with the, the, the shooting downgrade you are swallowing by starting Brown, Watson and Gordon altogether, Even though percentage wise, Watson and Gordon are both over 40%. Is that, should that be on the table for this matchup? Because I, I, they just have no, Christian Brown's overmatched and they just have no other answers. And it's not like Peyton Watson's going to stop sga, but his length and his quickness, I think is their only shot at anything other than like a complete gimmick defense. Yeah.
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B
Pulling Cam Johnson from the starting lineup is going to be Denver's adjustment after their first playoff loss. Right. Like, is, is it, like, is there a way to bet on that?
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A
Probably on call sheet. Get in touch with Giannis. I keep, I keep mixing it up with. Isn't there a cereal that's like Kashi that like, makes organic? Like, I keep thinking that Giannis is sponsoring a healthy cereal company or that the cereal company has gone into the gambling space as a, as a pivot in the cereal market. Anyway, I'm sorry, continue on. Peyton Watson and Cam Johnson.
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B
What does your company do? We do gambling and cereal.
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A
Yes.
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B
Fruit Loops.
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A
Fruit Loops is going to the Kellogg's presenting sponsor. Kellogg's Sportsbook.
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B
Oh, man. We're off the rails. All right, so they're not really getting the shooting fees from Cam Johnson right now. So, like, why, why wouldn't you make the change? He just, for whatever reason, it just hasn't clicked there. He's had some injuries the last couple of weeks. He hurt his finger last night, in fact. I don't know if that was a factor in him not being there in stretch, but he also hadn't really done anything. I mean, Hardaway was much more effective. I mean, one of the things I thought actually watching them was to get enough shooting on the floor that the other direction they could go is just start Hardaway. Obviously they can't. It doesn't help with the Shay matchup at all. But maybe you just say, we're going to try to outscore you guys and we'll live with Whatever we get from Braun. Were you surprised at that replay, by the way?
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A
Which one?
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B
The one where Braun seemed to block the shot and they challenged it and they still called the foul.
- [16:04]
A
Yeah, I was surprised by the replay a little bit, I have to say. Like, I just. I can't. I just either fast forward or do something else during the interminable reviews that we have now. You know what? I was not surprised by that. One of Lou Dort's arms smacked Jokic in the face. And somehow the crowd was like, oh, that's a flop. And booing the refs. He's like, no, he actually clocked him in the face by accident. And he's lucky he wasn't ejected from the game again. And he apologized and after the game. And I would like to mimic this. This kind of apology. I wonder if I can apply it to other parts of my life. Dort's apology was basically like, hey, my arms just do stuff like my arm when I'm getting around the screen, my arms are just their own. Their own entities. I don't know what's going on with my arms. Can I use that in other parts? Like, not for arms. I'm just thinking, can I just apply that to. I'm sorry for what I said. When I start talking, my mouth just. It just goes like. I don't know what's going to come out of it. I think this is a. This is a good. Dort has found something here. All right. The other thing, that was an interesting
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B
play because you can see in the build up to that, like, there was. There was some extra spice in the. In the. The screen Jokic was trying to set and how Jokic was trying to. And how Dort was trying to fight him to get around that. Like, you can sort of see that one coming in the seconds that led up to it.
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A
You know, there was also some spice. There's something going on with Christian Brown and Shay because Shay was talking a little, like, vociferous junk last night. A little bit more than normal. Some of it was directed at the refs, but some of it was definitely directed toward Christian Brown, including. He hit him with a too small. A subtle one. It wasn't, like, overt. It wasn't, like, rocking the baby like Russ does. But he hit him with the too small, which I enjoyed. I like when the Thunder are a little edgy like this.
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B
Okay, so can we talk about something, Christian Brown, real quick?
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A
Yeah.
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B
I haven't mentioned this anywhere else, so why is it that last year he looked like he was too young to drink and now he looks like a chain smoking 20 year war veteran.
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A
Wow. I. I have not thought about this. His. Is his haircut different? Is. Is he growing a little? Is there a little five o' clock shadow going on?
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B
The beer definitely was a big factor in all this.
- [18:15]
A
You're really bringing the important analysis. He also scored four points in 38 minutes last night which would it would be hopefully get a little bit more than that. A couple of other quick things that we have learned I think from this matchup. Sure the Aaron Gordon Valanchunas minutes were rough last night. It's almost like too much of the same thing. Like if JV is there for the power game, Aaron Gordon's power game is a little neutered. Jokic on defense, it seems like they've picked a lane with him in this matchup where if Hartenstein's on the floor, he's going to guard Hartenstein if Jalen Williams or Chet Holmgren is the only big man on the floor. And the Thunder have been reluctant to go solo Chet versus Jokic, but they did it more than ever in the first matchup between the teams and we have not seen much of it since. Jokic is basically going to play a one man zone and guard like Dort in the corner and toggle between matchups as guys sort of come into his area to, to keep him off the main screen setter. Whether it's Jill Big, Jalen Williams or Chet the main pick and pop guy. And Oklahoma City kind of is learning the ropes with that matchup. They've. They know how to deal with it. They'll sometimes bring Dort into the pick and roll to get Jokic involved. They'll sometimes arrange it so that the guy in the corner is a more dangerous person than Lou Dort. Maybe it's Isaiah Joe, maybe it's A.J. mitchell, sometimes it's even Shea. But that's always an interesting kind of wrinkle. And then we saw and you see a lot of teams do this but Oklahoma City almost more than, more than any of them. Particularly when Chet is on the back line on the Murray Jokic pick and roll. A lot of times they'll just let Murray go. Like they'll just let him drive and, and stay hugged up on Jokic and be like we're just not, we're not giving you the pocket pass. We're going to send help to Jamal Murray in the lane from anywhere else but Jokic. And I just think this is a really fun matchup. We haven't seen the fully healthy version of it yet. We haven't seen Jalen Williams at all in it, but they've been close games. But the Thunder's offensive rating in three games against Denver is 120, which would basically lead the league. And that to me is the story that stands out. If they don't, their turnover rate is in single digits, which is minuscule. And Denver just has not found any answer defensively. And this feels like a matchup that Denver, that Oklahoma City is a little more confident in now than they were in the playoffs last year. And who knows, we may never see it. This may not be the conference finals or de facto finals of Denver. Denver's got to write it. So how worried are you about Denver?
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B
A little worried, I think. Just they haven't been good enough defensively the whole season. Right. And some of that you could say is injury related. You know, like if they have Gordon and Watson at the same time, they. They probably profile as a better defensive team than they've been. They also weren't that great defensively last regular season and still had enough juice in the playoffs to beat the Clippers and take the Thunder to seven. Like when they can play their best five players, they're still pretty scary. I think that's the proposition with Denver.
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A
But man, do we know who their best five players are? You just not counting Cam Johnson in the best five players now.
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B
I don't know how you can count them in that group. I was actually in my head I was doing Watson, Gordon, Murray, Joker, and then a fifth player from amongst Brown, Brown, Hardaway, and maybe Cam Johnson plays himself back into that next. Yeah, but that, I mean, that trade has just really not worked out well when you consider the plum asset they gave up and the kind of downgrade that's resulted.
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A
Well, and. And six minutes last night for balance units who was kind of a part of that trade in the salary flexibility that it opened up for them. Three minutes for Strother, who's been playing decently. Zero minutes for ballyhooed midseason acquisition Tyus Jones. Just. Just not an encouraging game for Denver and Oklahoma City. Well, we'll see. I mean, they still have a pretty tough schedule the rest of the way, but I don't they'd like to get the number one seed, I'm sure. Much more important is the status of Jalen Williams in the playoffs because I do think they need all hands on deck. Okay, storyline number two. Jason Tatum is back. Spurs Celtics Tonight we'll see how he looks in that game, he's played over 50 minutes through two games. I am absolutely flabbergasted by how good he looks. Sure, there's a little rust here and there. Sure, they're giving him sort of easy defensive assignments. Whatever. He looks awesome. And in an Eastern Conference where a cavalier or two is always injured, the Pistons have lost four games in a row. Asar Thompson has missed, I think three of them. Cade has missed one of them. So let's, you know, let's not panic. The Pistons are still number one seed and the Knicks, my finals pick at the beginning of the year. You know, there's something like 18 and 7 in their last 25 games and every one of those losses is like Detroit, Detroit, Cleveland, Oklahoma City, which was a close loss. And then they go to LA and they get swept by the Lakers and the Clippers. Two teams, by the way, who guarded Cat with their centers. The, the. Just when the Knicks were getting used to their centers guarding Josh Hart, the LA teams flip it around. Cats playing. This is one of the best months of Cat's New York tenure. And they every time I start to feel good about the Knicks, they give me a reason to feel not quite bad, but confused. And meanwhile, Boston has Jaylen Brown, who is an all NBA candidate and in some people's minds, not mine, but some an MVP candidate. Pritchard and White are just as rock solid of a guard combo as there is in the NBA on both ends of the floor. You throw in Tatum and then Keita, that five man lineup looks very dangerous. Buchevich is hurt obviously, but Garza fills it nicely. And then they get all these bench guys who come in and either, well, I mean, Houser's not a bench guy, he's a starter. He's been on fire. Shireman's good. Hugo Gonzalez just gets in there and mucks things up and gets every offensive rebound from the corners. It seems early to say, well, Boston's the favorite in the east now because Tatum has played two games and we need to see how his body responds to continuous NBA action. But he's looked great. He's fresh, like unlike everyone else in the league. He has like no 60 game wear and tear. He's got his own kind of wear and tear. Are they the favorites? I am conservative when I make calls like that, but I'll say this, no one else in the east has given me a reason to call them favorites over Boston. So Boston, like, I guess I got to see more from Tatum, but they right now feel like the most coherent and complete team out of the top four.
- [24:53]
B
To me, that's probably a good way to put it. We, we don't know what Detroit is in the playoffs. I think there's a lot of concerns about their shooting. I think there's some questions about whether they could have done better than Kevin Herder to address that. So we got to see what they are in a postseason run. Even though their regular season has been impressive, the Knicks, I think, I mean they beat Boston last year with Tatum. They, when they put their five best players on the floor, I think they match up very well against Boston because they have the two wings to play against Tatum and Brown. But then like for a team that's kind of built as an offensive team, like shouldn't you be able, be able to score against the Luca Reeves canard perimeter trio of the Lakers?
- [25:45]
A
I don't understand. I was trying to figure out what
- [25:47]
B
was happening in that game.
- [25:49]
A
I looked up the numbers on those three because every time I watched the Lakers play. One of my notes is no way they can survive on defense with Luca Reeves and Canard and they're surviving on defense. And honestly, I think it's time to give the Lakers a little credit because all there's just so much focus on Luka's antics. On the LeBron Luka Fit which has not been very good. On where is LeBron playing next season? I have no earthly idea. I just literally like it could be any number of things. It could be not playing at all. And oh, their point differential stinks and they're surviving on close games and every loss is a blowout loss. And yet here they are. They just don't leave the conversation. They're 39 and 25. They tend to take care of business against bad teams. They just beat the Knicks at home kind of convincingly. And the Knicks by the way, have had some good wins in that 187 stretch. They had a great comeback against Houston. They blew out the spurs, but, but anyway. But the Lakers are just like still here anyway. I don't, I don't. Back to the Knicks. I, I don't like. Yes, they match up well with the Celtics and legitimately beat them last year in the playoffs. Cat is playing really well and like the most decisive I think he's been as a post up guy against Mismatches, as a roller to the rim. And the Brunson pick and roll Jose Alvarado has kind of unlocked him a little bit off the bench. He looks for Cat and yet they just. You like Bridges two games in a row kind of no showed in la and it just seems like he's had a very good season. But it's always. There's just always something going a little bit haywire with the Knicks and it. I just. And Mitch Robinson didn't play last night and he's a must for them. Like with. They're. They're a totally different team without him. But I don't know. I mean the Celtics. The Celtics. I'm very interested to see tonight's game. They have a couple that I think they played the Thunder later this week as well. Coming up.
- [27:33]
B
Their next two are at spurs and at Thunder. So they're getting tested right away here.
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A
A split would be a wonderful outcome for any team in that. In those two games. But they, they are, they're. They're absolutely a Finals contender now. I, I think, I think they were. I, I said to Bill a couple weeks ago, I know their ceiling probably isn't quite high enough without Tatum to win three playoff series. Like I won't pick them to win the east, but all the data says they're as good as any of these other teams in the East.
- [28:03]
B
Yeah, I mean Cleveland on paper, I feel like they still should be the best team and, and then the, then the game starts and they're not. They've been very good points in the second quarter against, against Boss. They didn't have Jared Allen, but they had their other three main guys. It was jarring how unworried the Celtics were about Mobley at the three point line. I think that gummed up Cleveland's whole offense and they also, the way they line up now, I mean they look so small in stretches against Boston when you're trying to play Keon Ellis at the three against. Against Brown or Tatum or even the other guys Boston brings in. So that that roster looked a little bit less than to me in the matchup against Boston than I expected.
- [28:56]
A
I think the Cavs are. I've now come all the way over to the. Their, Their best look is Allen and Mobley together. As good as those guys can look apart from each other. I just think their ceiling is highest when they play. I mean they're never going to play 30 minutes together because they're going to be staggered. But they need both of them to play a lot together. Mobley and Harden just haven't had the same pick and roll chemistry as Allen and Harden. I think that's one of the reasons why you feel the lack of Jared Allen. Even though the spacing can get a little funky when they're both out there. Dean Wade up to 37% on threes. He's big for them. They kind of feel complete when he plays and he just plays two out of every three, two out of every four games. Are we going to see shreuss at all this season? He's got to be running out of baseball hats. I feel like he's worn 75 different baseball hats. I think he changes them at halftime of these games. And Keon Ellis, he. He's got to be like one of the only players in NBA history who basically couldn't even get in the rotation for the worst team in the league and is now a big part of the rotation for a team that could plausibly make the finals anyway. Just. But Boston looks great. Jayson Tatum looks great. Everything about his approach in the first two games, like I just literally in any. I just can't picture a better realistic first two games for Jayson Tatum. He looked great. The team looked great with him. He played unselfishly. He played all around basketball. He got on the boards, he threw passes, he set screens. Just a home run. First. I was jaw agape both games. I expected way more rust and there was only a little.
- [30:31]
B
Yeah, I was at that first game against Dallas and obviously the crowd got a little concerned when he got sprite commercial on that dunk. But then he came back in the second half was just like you said, was just really solid. Got to his spots, got to his jumpers. Even pre injury, he wasn't getting to the rim much. Even, even the year before that. So his, his numbers, I wrote about that this morning for the Athletic. Like his numbers are pretty consistent with what he did a year ago in terms of where he's shooting from. And, and you know, as much data as we can tell from two games anyway. So the, the biggest concern I think you have with the Celtics is just can it get a little too gummed down into the dribble, dribble, dribble, pull up, jump shot, dribble, dribble, dribble, pull up, jump shot. Tatum's turn, Brown's turn. Tatum's turn, Brown's turn. They're already the slowest pace team in the league. Already take the fewest shots at the rim. So is it, is that going to be. Because that's what undermined them, I think a little bit in the playoffs last year. So is that going to come back and bite them in a playoff matchup?
- [31:39]
A
And you hope that's part of what they've learned about themselves with Tatum out Yes, they play at the slowest pace in the league and they take among the fewest shots at the rim. A lot of that is by design on all fronts. Like they want to minimize turnovers as like almost priority number one. And those two things mitigate against turnovers. But even within a sort of slow, conservative system, they got a lot of stuff going on in their offense. A lot of different, like stagger screens, Spain screens, a lot of movement. And that's the biggest takeaway for me from the first two Tatum games other than how good he looks is they have landed so far and need to continue to land on the right mix of styles, the right blend of styles. When you introduce a player like Tatum and Adam to a player like Brown, you're inevitably going to get some one on one play and that's fine. It's especially fine when it's preceded by some action that gets Jason Tatum a mismatch in the post against Sam Merrill or whoever and he just goes crazy in the post. But they've got to find the right blend. And I agree with you that toward the end of that Knicks series in particular, they did not. They, they did two things wrong in that series. Number one, they took way too many threes in the first game when they had a big lead. I couldn't believe it. And number two, that whole season they were just too much. Your turn. My turn. Stagnant offense on the Knicks. Two bad games in LA. A weird last 30 games where their record since that Dallas loss, that was rock bottom for them at home when they got blown out by the Mavs and I think they were 2 and 9 or something in an 11 game stretch. They've been very good record wise yet every loss seems to be to a good team. But the other encouraging trend in that time has been their defense has gone from 18th, 20th to I think they're up to like seventh in defensive efficiency for the season, allowing way fewer threes change their scheme. What, what have you seen? Like what's, what's, what's real and what's not real about the Knicks defensive surge to you?
- [33:36]
B
I mean, I think, I mean Even though McBride has been out, I think just having their guys has been really important. I mean they had a stretch before then where they were kind of running out of players and we're bringing a lot of guys now. DOR ended up giving them some pretty good minutes, but they had some other guys in the mix who were not, I mean not having. They had a stretch where Jordan Clarkson was a guy, they were like counting on. Right. And so when, when you're, I mean, when you have that many holes in your lineup, yeah, your defense is going to look worse. So I think just them being whole again has been a big factor. I think an OBI's been really good. Like I. Every time I've seen the Knicks, I've just been feeling him on defense. Like even that Laker game. Luka made some crazy shots, but I mean, OG was a pro, was a problem for him. So I'd say those are the two biggest things. But I don't know, when I hear you talk about them and the ups and downs, the thing that kind of goes off in my head is, yeah, this is like what a second tier contender looks like. This is what this is. This is what it looks like when you're good but not quite good enough. Right.
- [34:43]
A
They didn't trade all that stuff to be a second tier contender. I do think Kat has been a little better on defense as they simplified it for him. Like he's mostly. Although they've. They've blitzed both Luka and Kawhi in the last two games and have not looked very coherent doing it. But when Cat is in like a high ish drop and then late switches onto guards, that's worked well for the Knicks and obviously they have three very good wing defenders in Anobi Bridges hard. Alvarado's a pest. So I, you know, their defenses, they just need to have a nice complete stretch against some good teams. All right, let's take a quick break and then we're going to talk more about defense with John Hollinger. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra, the official beer of the NBA. Part of why we all love watching the game is the superior talent on the court. Spurs, Pistons, Wembanyama getting knocked all over the floor. Cade's hip checking them. Paul Reed's elbowing him. Jalen Dern's going right at him and he just gets up and gives it back. And has six of the most spectacular blocks you will ever see a player have, including one of the best I've ever seen. On Cade Cunningham at the rim, leading the spurs to a statement win on the road. That's why we watch the NBA, to see guys like that do things like that. But superior plays aren't just for the NBA. Try Michelob Ultra, a superior light beer with only 95 calories. Even better, with Michelob Ultra, you could win courtside seats. Ooh, and more. Michelob Ultra. Superior is worth playing for. Enter now@michelobultro.com Courtside Michelob Ultra Courtside 25 to 26. No purchase necessary. Open US residents 21 or over. Begins on October 1, 2025 and ends on June 30, 2026. Multiple entry period. See official rules@mcglobalultro.com Courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes and details. All right, speaking of defense, we're in sniffing awards season now and I had not thought much about my all defense teams and I thought, I know you take awards voting extremely seriously. Although I think just like me, you don't have a ballot anymore, but you take it very seriously.
- [36:45]
B
I have never had a ballot.
- [36:46]
A
Never. Not once. Not even in espn?
- [36:48]
B
No. No.
- [36:50]
A
Wow, I didn't know that. Yeah. And yet you still write maybe the best awards column on the entire earth. So maybe you're, maybe you should get a pallet. All defense, you only get 10 spots. That's all you get. First team, all defense, second team, all defense, you got to have played 65. Game rule does apply. And there are no positions, which, that's where I'd like to start. I can't remember where you fall on this. You have some people who forget the no position. Singh. I want to construct an actual five man team with like guards and wings. Even if the five best defenders, four of them are probably centers. Or do you just say, hey, you've, you've gone positionless. I'm going to go positionless. I'm going to put whoever I, you know, if it's five big men, it's five big men. Where do you, where do you lean?
- [37:35]
B
I'm probably more toward the latter. I mean, the one thing I will say is I do consider these guys relative to other people at their position. So like the five most valuable defensive players are going to be bigs, right? But the, the relative value of say Derek White versus random point guard X can be greater than the relative value of bam. Adebayo versus center X. Right. And, and, and I think that's an important distinction and that's why I end up with a lot of perimeter guys on my all star team and my all defense team. Excuse me.
- [38:10]
A
Okay, let's do our. Let's just go first team.
- [38:14]
B
Okay.
- [38:15]
A
I had three guys that despite their overlapping positionality, I think for me were pretty quickly penned into first team. And maybe you might, it wouldn't surprise me if you have only two of them.
- [38:28]
B
Okay.
- [38:29]
A
But Wemby, assuming eligibility, Wemby, Chet Holmgren and Rudy Gobert are all on my first team.
- [38:37]
B
I had Holmgren on my second team.
- [38:40]
A
Okay. You have Wemby and Gobert first team.
- [38:42]
B
Wemby and Gobert on my first team. Yes.
- [38:45]
A
Okay. And again Chet, second team versus first team. Congratulations. You're all defense either way. Is any reason why Gobert over Chet?
- [38:54]
B
Yeah, I just. I mean Gobert deals a little better like with physicality can't be pushed around underneath as much. I think when with with homegrown is your lone big. You're still very vulnerable on the glass and to some physicality like in post ups and whatnot. So they do some things to correct for that a little bit. But like, like with chat's on the floor like Oklahoma City can't rebound a free throw.
- [39:20]
A
Right.
- [39:21]
B
Like they like it's, it's pretty. That's the most glaring example. But like they, they, they can be pushed around underneath much more easily when he's out there. I think Gobert is much more solid on the glass so I got to give him a little bit of an edge.
- [39:35]
A
I don't mind that I was tinkering around with some of the tracking data stats and I will continue to beat the drum on this as loudly as possible. When Gobert switches onto a guard or a wing and it goes badly, it goes like Keystone Cops level badly. And. And the most famous example being the Luka shot in the conference finals where he talked all sorts of junk at Gobert. Gobert against isolations. This year he's faced 183 of them which is a ton 0.73 points per play allowed. I mean that's one of the best marks in the entire league. It's preposterous. He's awesome at every part of defense. And the one common denominator is Minnesota has an awesome defense when Gobert's on the floor no matter who else is with him. And a not awesome defense when Gobert's off the floor. Whether it's first or second team, he's got to be all defense again. I don't think he has a shot at defensive player of the year because if Wembanyama is healthy, he's getting it. If he gets to 65 games, he's getting it. But I think he needs to be for me first team. All right, give me. So you have Wemby Gobert first team Chet second team. Give me your. Give me your three remaining first team guys.
- [40:43]
B
All right. Scotty Barnes from Toronto. I think I give him extra points for being a high load offensive player who also has been elite on the defensive end. I think if there was like a clutch defender of the year award, he would probably win. He's had a number of game saving blocks, deflection steals, mostly blocks, and just he's the guy that I always end up writing down plays of his in the notebook when I'm watching games. Like, wow, I can't believe he just did that. He has size, he has mobility, he has good hands. Like to me he's, he's really taken a step forward this year and become one of the truly elite defenders in the league.
- [41:23]
A
So at the risk of, of alienating all my friends in Toronto, I have Scotty Barnes second team, which I realize is the. A damning insult and slanderous against the honor of the Raptors franchise, which is named after named for the Jurassic park movies. Okay. But Scotty Barnes has been unbelievable. If you want to put him on first team, I have no quibble with you and also gets points for I like to reward versatility. It's why BAM is going to be a mainstay on my all defense ballot until he falls off. Scotty Barnes in the same game can guard your center and your point guard and do it equally well depending on what the team needs. He should be an all defense player if he's first team, second team, that's up to you. So I have him second team. All right, so that's three first teams for you.
- [42:05]
B
To sum up your argument, you hate Canada.
- [42:09]
A
I, I love Canada actually. I really would like to spend more time in Canada. But yeah, the spooky moulder portion of the Raptors fans are, are going to be after me for, for Scotty Barnes and none of them will say who. Who this is what always makes me mad is when you leave someone off of any award, you get people who are like, well this guy, it's a no brainer. He's got to be in there. Like, all right, so who do you. Who's off then, right? You only get 10, but anyway, okay, so you got Wemby Gobert, Scotty Barnes, two more spots for me.
- [42:41]
B
Derek White, best rim protecting guard in basketball by a mile. Crazy good at defending transition sequences, fast breaks, good, good hands, good like solid at like the regular guard stuff. But like the fact that he adds rim protection from the point guard position just is like a next level thing that makes him so valuable.
- [43:06]
A
He challenges, I looked it up. He challenges four shots a game at the rim and opponents are shooting 55% on shots at the rim. When Derrick White is the closest defender you. That, that, that's. Those are the numbers of a lot of starting centers in the NBA across the board. It's incredible. I have Derrick White second team myself. I really wanted him to be first team and I wouldn't care if he were first team. I love Derrick White so much. He's one of my favorite players in the league. Either way, all no brainer, all defense. I wonder if we're going to go 10 for 10. By the way, overlapping players so far. We're set. We got one more. One more first team spot for Mr. Hol.
- [43:45]
B
All right. And I went with Asar Thompson from the Detroit Pistons.
- [43:50]
A
We are not going to go 10 for 10.
- [43:51]
B
Oh, okay.
- [43:54]
A
So you want to start?
- [43:57]
B
I just think he's been. He's been electrifying whenever I've seen him.
- [44:01]
A
Yeah, he's one of my toughest cuts.
- [44:03]
B
The, the athleticism, the energy, the toughness, the, you know, the fact that choice, the number two defense. And I think he's been a huge factor in that. I get. I mean Detroit is kind of like. It's a little bit like OKC where there's a lot of good defenders and so you're trying to divvy up credit a little bit. But I think he's been fantastic. I think he's actually had a better defensive season than his brother this year. So I had him on my first team.
- [44:32]
A
Interesting. Maybe I need to reconsider. This is.
- [44:36]
B
Again, this was. This was hard. Like I wrote down 19 names and there's a lot of the last nine guys was hard.
- [44:43]
A
So I have. I have no Pistons, which feels horrible. And I may be wrong about a SAR and willing to consider that beef stew, I mean, should be on one of the teams. I just. There are just two things I can't get by low minutes total compared to the other guys.
- [44:58]
B
Yeah.
- [44:59]
A
In part because he self suspended himself for seven games. And it's just like I know he plays a lot with the starters, but bench guys, you just face a different diet of players than starters do. So I didn't have him. Asar, I might live to regret. And again, rough Detroit fans. Rough draft. That's all this is. Rough draft. So here was my first team.
- [45:16]
B
Okay.
- [45:17]
A
I had Wemby, Chet Gobert, OG Anunoby.
- [45:22]
B
Okay.
- [45:23]
A
And Amen Thompson.
- [45:24]
B
Okay.
- [45:26]
A
And then I'll just. I'll just read you my second team and you can tell me like who. Who you don't have because you have a Sar Thompson or maybe and who. Who I'm wrong about. My second team was Derrick White, previously mentioned. Scotty Barnes, previously Mentioned Bam Adebayo Kayson Wallace and Jaden McDaniels.
- [45:48]
C
All right,
- [45:51]
B
so the guy I did not really have that highly that that you mentioned was Jada McDaniels. Partly because that same Gobert thing that you mentioned and I'm like, well, there's one guy here who's the difference maker and it's not Jaden McDaniel. So how high can I put him on my. On my all defense board?
- [46:12]
A
That's interesting. That's. You're right. There is a little bit of a logical not hole but quibble there that I think he's been amazing. Every time I've watched him play on a again on a variety of different kinds of players, I'm willing to open up that spot for Asar Thompson. OG Anunoby is a non negotiable to me. Jason Wallace is a non negotiable to me. Derrick White and Scotty Barnes are also non negotiables to me. I suspect you disagree with one of my non. Other non negotiables.
- [46:40]
B
So OG Anunoby and Bam. I had on my second team. Amen Thompson I had on my second team. Okay, so we have.
- [46:48]
A
We only have like one difference.
- [46:49]
B
We only have two different players.
- [46:51]
A
Oh man. I have Amen Thompson and Jada McDaniels and you have a Sar Thompson and
- [46:56]
B
who Chris Dunn was my last player. And partly this was revenge for him not being eligible last year when he totally should have made it. And then partly is because I still think he's been really good this year. I think he's been a big part of the Clippers turnaround. And so I went with him.
- [47:18]
A
You said you had Kayson Wallace, right?
- [47:20]
B
I did not have Case and Wallace. He was one of my final cuts.
- [47:23]
A
Yeah, it's tough. I mean like the tough part with
- [47:25]
B
OKC was like, okay, I'm going to put Case and Wallace on when they put Lou Dort on. The best player on every team.
- [47:33]
A
Not always. It depends on the matchup. Sometimes it's interesting. Like why like so among my omissions Lou Dort stand out is like number one. No. Draymond Green. Evan Mobley. I think Evan Mobley has a sneaky good case that is I think being overlooked. But what's. Is this just a. Is Dort just a victim of. It's. This is almost like this is such a hard award to get because there's only 10 spots versus three. Three. All NBA teams.
- [48:01]
B
Yeah, exactly. Because if I. So if I had a third team, I think I would have gone Draymond, Lou Dort, Evan Mobley, Casey Wallace and then the other guy was too many
- [48:13]
A
camera from Portland both both him and clinging but I think especially Camara have have strong cases.
- [48:19]
B
Yeah but like you said we only have to that's where this gets so hard. We only have we. We only have the two teams to deal with. When you I think the metrics have a lot of trouble divvying up credit on OKC because it just shows everybody is being awesome which I think is partly true.
- [48:39]
A
But when you and Hardenstein's not eligible, Caruso is not eligible. You go through the guys who are just like not eligible and it was like man if all these guys were eligible I don't even know which Thunder player to honor. I think Kason Wallace threads the needle of creates a ton of turnovers and gives nothing back in terms of being stout and in rotation and and pretty switchable honestly more than his size would suggest. But again I have the beholder right McDaniels is I just think McDaniels length and tenacity are so important to Minnesota. But you're right that Gobert is the common denominator. Maybe that's CSR Thompson spot but tons of like and the guy we didn't mention like this is always so weird as we perceive guys when things are new and fresh and they go to the front of our minds. Is Dyson Daniels like this much worse defensively this year that he goes from second in defensive player of the year voting. He was on my first team all defense to like like our eighth guy in consideration. What what happened?
- [49:39]
B
His steel rate has gone down this year. The other interesting thing that's happened this year Nikhil Alexander Walker has taken a lot of turns on opponents number one scores and he's been really good on defense. Like if you were going to if you're going to nominate one Hawks wing for all defense I think you'd have a debate internally as to whether you would go with Nikhil or Dyson. As good as. As good as Dyson is like anticipating and making those kinds of plays. Nikhil on ball against elite scorers has been really solid for them.
- [50:10]
A
Is is Wemby your defense player of the year that I paper over that.
- [50:14]
B
Yeah yeah. No brainer. Yeah yeah yeah. Total game changer. In fact he sort of blots out the sun a little bit for for Stefan Castle who I think has on my list at least like a case to be. Yeah. And others receiving votes here. Right.
- [50:31]
A
Yeah absolutely. He's on my long list of others receiving votes. And I'm glad you brought him up because did you see Spurs Rockets on Sunday? I did not, so I wanted to talk about that with Bill and we kind of went too fast over it. An interesting thing happened in that game that might be worth 10 minutes to go back and watch. Your former team, the Memphis Grizzlies earlier this season put Jaren Jackson Jr. On Stefan Castle and went under every screen and basically just like told the spurs if you're taking at this point this hadn't happened, but just go with me if you're taking Harrison Barnes out of the starting five and replacing him with Julian Champagne to put as much shooting around Wembley as you can and make it as hard as possible for us to put our center anywhere else other than on Wemby because that's where you want him to take advantage of speed and all that. We're actually going to try something. We're going to put our center, our shop blocker or one of them anyway on Castle and treat him like a non shooter and almost nobody has done that since then. Credit to Omas Isolo with a creative tactic. The Rockets did it in that game. They put sengun on Stefan Castle almost the entire game that Shengun and Cassell were in and put wings. I think Tari Easton started, but they just rotated a bunch of wings on him. And if I were the rest of the league, I would be alarmed at how quickly and easily the spurs solved that problem and were totally ready for it. Number one thing they did was Castle just scored a lot in ways that the Rockets were going to concede. Like he hit a corner three, he hit a long two on a pick and roll where they went under. He had another one, a drive where he beat the defender to the spot and finished through him. He did all the things that you have to do when they treat you like this. The other thing they did was they just found great matchups for Wembanyama in other ways. And the main way they did that is they found Reed Shepard's guy and him either screen for Wemby in pin downs or the reverse and put Reed shepherd in the action with Wemby. And if you're not switching that, a hole is going to open somewhere. And the spurs just like exploited all that stuff. But it was a very interesting tactical game and I thought a very good sign for the spurs and that move to take Barnes out of the starting five. He had gotten off to such a great start shooting and then he slowed down. I was still kind of surprised when it happened. And it's a big elevation for Julian Champagne, who was kind of like on the fringes of the league a couple years ago, but he's played really, really well. That team. I think the spurs can win the title. I think the Thunder are, are, are reasserting themselves if healthy as the clear favorites to win the title. But I think the spurs can do it.
- [53:04]
B
Yeah, I think they are clearly in that conversation now with, without a doubt. It's interesting, that center matchup because the spurs actually saw that a lot Castle's rookie year, and I think they got some reps with that and that's why they were able to kind of snap back so quickly in that Houston game. They sort of got used to that. The second half of last year, before Wemby went out, the other team was putting their center on Castle almost every game. And he got a lot, he got a lot of reps and a lot of comfort with that and where kind of the open threes are going to come from and where he'd be okay taking them. And I think there was kind of some institutional knowledge from that that carried over to that Houston game.
- [53:47]
A
I gave you one homework assignment that we will end with unless you have more all defense thoughts, which I'd forgotten to do this with my last two guests because I'm just, my brain is addled. One nice thing about a tanking team and it could, it could be anything and there are a lot of tanking teams to choose from. So John Hollinger, did you prepare a nice thing or are you going to have to go off the cuff here and think of a nice thing? And if so, it might be tough.
- [54:09]
B
I could, I could think of one nice thing, actually. Washington Wizards second rounder Jameer Watkins, have you watched this dude on. Since we're talking about defensive players, have you watched this guy on defense?
- [54:23]
A
I have. I sadly have watched a couple recent Wizards.
- [54:27]
B
Right.
- [54:28]
A
I thought you were going to say Sharif Cooper at first, but I really did. No. Watkins has been playing really hard for
- [54:38]
B
them, stood out in the combine for his defense and has done so again in the limited minutes he's gotten for the Wizards. He's. His offense may never be at the level where he can play a ton, but he's interesting and fun to watch, especially if you're, you know, if you're watching a tanking team and you watch a tanking team on defense, especially like this, it really stands out when, when somebody plays like this guy does. So hats off to him.
- [55:07]
A
Here's my nice thing I think the Grizzlies are the most entertaining to watch of the tanking teams. And I'm not including New Orleans, who is not tanking. They're 11 and 9 in their last 20 games. I think the Grizzlies are legitimately fun to watch. Not in a like, oh, I'm a basketball nerd. What's Omax Prosper up to? They're just fun to watch. Right now they're playing no centers at all. Like Omax Prosper is their starting center shooting 40% on threes. Taylor Hendrick, who I really liked before that horrific leg injury he had in Utah and is a per Memphis finds the the classic Memphis guys. If you are a first round pick and you're long and athletic, we're going to take a second chance on you. Both of these guys are perfect second chance guys. Hendricks is like a backup center creating all kinds of Havoc. He's shooting 41% on threes. They just take the ball from you. They're very handsy, they're very aggressive on defense. Ty Jerome is back hitting like his preposterous Ty Jerome floaters. That shouldn't go in, baby. Oh God, I shouldn't have brought that up. Scottie Pippen Jr. Just takes the ball from. They just have like a. And I've already this segment I already gave two weeks ago to Gigi Jackson Jr. Who has reestablished himself as a potential part of their future and has been like a decent all around player for them this year. I just think they're a lot of fun to watch. I'm not going to lie. When I watch a Utah game, it's like eating broccoli. When I watch sac, I can't even Sacramento is like eating. Almost like eating shit. Honestly, watching a Sacramento game. Utah's broccoli, Washington's cauliflower. Memphis is like a nice bowl of pasta. Like it's fun to watch.
- [56:44]
C
All right,
- [56:46]
A
John Hollinger, so you got something up on the Athletic today On, on, on Jason Tatum. What else?
- [56:52]
B
Well, I'm been writing a lot about these college guys that everyone's excited about and tanking the season four. So I'm headed off to the SEC at ACC tournaments the next couple days. So I'll. I'll have a bunch more.
- [57:05]
A
Putting your scout hat on? Yeah. All the scouts around the league are dispersing across the country to various tournament sites, including some here in New York for the Big east tournament I guess is still here. Maybe there's another one. John Hollinger, the best in the business. A guy that I read trying to get into the business and inspired me. It's always wonderful to see you. I'm a little disappointed that your jersey is a Peachtree jersey and not a Magic City hoodie behind you, but c' est la vie. Read everything he writes at the Athletic Hollinger and Duncan podcast every week. John Hollinger, you're the man. Thank you, sir.
- [57:34]
B
Thank you.
- [57:35]
A
This episode of the Zach Lowe show is brought to you by State Farm. Life's better when you've got the right help. Think of that perfect pass that sets everything up. Smooth, effortless, just what your team needed. That's the kind of assist State Farm offers. Whether it's online or in person. State Farm's your teammate when you need help making your next play. State Farm with the assist. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state.
- [57:59]
B
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- [58:27]
A
All right, before we welcome Nick Friedle in to talk all things Warriors, I just wanted to bounce around. Just random thoughts. I watch a lot of games. I got a lot of random thoughts. I have no place to put them. Let's put them here. East playoff race 6 is now Orlando 35 and 28. 7. Miami 8. Philly is only a game ahead of Atlanta now at 9 and Philly is a mess. Injury wise, obviously. A couple interesting notes. Banchero quietly redeeming his season has been hot lately. Scoring, assisting, shooting a little bit more efficient and trying to get to the rim more, I think. And I looked this up a couple weeks ago for a podcast. He's only averaging like 3 post ups, 3 post touches rather per 100 possessions, which is miniscule for a guy his size. I think Orlando needs to find a way to lean more into that a little bit, particularly when they get everybody back healthy. If they ever get everybody back healthy. Anthony Black's even been hurt lately. He's been awesome this season. Miami, this is a real stat. Since February 1st, they are plus 117 total points in 120 minutes. So a point a minute with where and bam. On the floor at the same time completely changed and revitalized their season, even with Norm Powell hurt. Tyler Hero is playing amazing. Wiggins has been in and out of the lineup a little bit now, but those two guys have burgeoning chemistry on both ends of the floor. Ware's playing hard and Bam, just whatever you need Bam to do on either end of the floor, he's versatile enough to do it. Charlotte, just burn the orange jerseys, the Cheetos jerseys, they stink. Get him out of my life. By the way, again, we're talking random thoughts. Russell Westbrook versus the media. You may have seen that one last week when Russ challenged the Sacramento media at a press conference and one particular reporter who some stuff he didn't like, I guess that was said or written. And that reporter did not go back at Russ. Russ gave him the floor to say say what you want to say. And that reporter then didn't really do anything and then went out of address the topic on his podcast, which neither here or there. To me, what's interesting, if I had been there, I'd like to think I would have asked Russ what was said that you actually thought was inaccurate or incorrect because he went off on this whole thing of you're not in the practices and you're not in the film sessions and so you don't really know the implications. You don't know what you're talking about. And that line of thought from players and sometimes coaches always drives me crazy because I'd love to be in the practices we're not allowed. I'd love to be in the film sessions you're going to let me in because if not, then I can only see what I can see or hear what I can hear. And if the implication of what you're saying is only people who have that level of access, basically players, coaches, former players and coaches are only they are fit to cover basketball and talk about basketball. Is that the world that you think fans want to live in? Like, do you think, do you think that's a healthy media landscape for the NBA where only ex players at ex coaches can talk about the league? Because it's not and it would affect like who's listening to or watching or talking about the NBA? And like, yeah, I'd love to go into film sessions, but I can't. That's what always drives me crazy about that, that line of thought. You might have heard me say I have Joe Missoula as my coach of the year so far. With apologies to J.B. bickerstaff, Jordan Ott and several others. Always great Coaches in the NBA. I just think what Missoula has done and what the Celtics have done is next level. And a couple of things I wanted to highlight from that Cavs game, that they blitzed the Cavs on the road. Tatum's second game. We've talked a lot about Tatum. We'll talk more about Tatum. Number one, there was a point in the game where the Cavs where Luca Garza was playing center for the Celtics and Hugo Gonzalez was on the floor. And the Cavs inverted the matchups and said, well, we don't. Luka's shooting pretty well from three. We want to keep our center, Thomas Bryant at the time close to the rim. We're going to put him on Hugo Gonzalez and sort of let him roam around and put a wing on Luca Garza, who can chase him around the three point line. And on the very first possession, not the second possession, not 45 seconds later, not a minute later, not like, oh, we need some time to digest what's happening. On the very first possession, the Celtics put Hugo Gonzalez in a pick and roll and said, thomas Bryant, you think you're going to hide, we're bringing you up into the action. And the Cavs were like, oh, oh, we didn't expect this. And I can't remember who the ball handler was, but Hugo set a screen, popped the three. They pass it to Hugo. The Cavs panic rotated to him because Thomas Bryant was scrambling around and he swung it to, I think Jalen Brown for an open three. That's a sign of good coaching when you get a coach and a team who adjusts to your adjustment immediately. Like, we don't even need any time to digest this. That's the sign of a good coach and coach of the year candidate. Another interesting thing, take note of this end of the second quarter in that game, the Cavs get the ball back with 25.4 or 25.8 seconds left, I can't remember which. So basically they can run out the entire clock and take the last shot. More or less. Someone's bringing the ball up. Boston's sitting back in their defense. It looks for all intents and purposes like the Cavs are going to get the last shot. Evan Mobley, who's shooting 64% from the line, I think this year he's been better than that in prior seasons, but, you know, that's where he is this year, goes up to set a screen for the ball handler. In that moment when Evan Mobley sets the pick and is therefore in the play, he's not away from the play. He's in the play. Luca Garza who's on him basically just grabs him, hugs him and I'm like that's interesting. That was an intentional foul. They intentionally with the Cavs in the bonus. The Cavs were already in the bonus. The Celtics intentionally fouled. There was like 14 seconds left in the in the half at that point. And it's just a fascinating mathematical bet of we're sending Evan Mobley to the line thinking could miss both could go one of two and we're turning a non possession for us or a heave at best into a real possession for us. And we've concluded that the math of that depending on the free throw shooter and in this case Evan Mobley screen setter is an appropriate free throw shooter for us to foul works out in our favor. Now it didn't work out in their favor. I think you went one of two and Peyton Pritchard who takes every end of quarter shot missed. But that's a really interesting tactic and now I'm going to be watching for it. It's something that like a Euroleague coach would do, but you don't see it a lot in the NBA with the other team in the bonus. And there are other coaches who do lots of interesting things at end of quarter situations like that. Spoelstra and Mark Dagnold in particular like to suddenly start trapping the other team to try to speed up their possession and get in game it so they get another possession. Just an interesting little wrinkle. Jaeger Gemmin out for the seat or Joman. I can't remember what we're. I think it's Joman now out for the season. That stinks. I think pretty successful first year for him all things considered. But the plantar fasciitis is apparently acting up. Indiana plays Sacramento tonight. Couldn't pay me enough money. Sorry. Like These tank team vs tank team games are just. I think we should just simulate them and spare everybody and people should get their tickets refunded. Jalen Duran. Love Jalen Duran. Deserving all star deserves a place in the all NBA discussion like that. He's expanding his game. Mid range jumpers are not looking good. It might be. It might be time to bag those for the season, go back to the lab and bring them out next year. I liked it. I think he'll get there. I think he could even in time become like a pseudo corner three point shooter, maybe even a little better than that. But that's like time time and the time may not be now Dante DiVincenzo just want to give him some flowers. One of the best transition defenders in the NBA just throws himself into plays headlong and disrupts these transition shots at the rim. We're like, where did he come from? How is this guard with his hands up causing this much havoc at the rim? Let's see what else we got here. Klay Thompson Klay Thompson's up to 38% on threes and I'm happy to report for those who are not watching the tanking Dallas Mavericks, although it's much more fun to watch now with Cooper flagback in the Rookie of the Year race, which con caniple I would have a head now. Klay Thompson can still go on a heater like almost nobody else in the NBA. Old man Klay Thompson is still running around taking these contested threes where you're like wow, that is a crazy shot. Not for him. But man, he's still making these shots and he can still make five of them in three minutes and delight the crowd. And it's awesome and I want the warriors to try to get him back just for fun. Landry Shambit kind of has completely changed the Knicks. Really grinding on defense, making a lot of open threes, stealing crunch time minutes on a lot of nights from sometimes Josh Hart lately Mikhail Bridges. Just a great under the radar season for a guy who's bounced around and bounced around and always seems to get in the rotation and then for whatever reason, mostly because he just goes on a cold streak from three and coaches don't trust his defense falls out of the rotation. It's been a really fun subplot to watch him cement himself in the Knicks rotation and they need him and he's been awesome. Alper and Shengun. It's alarming to me that the jumper has sort of vanished and after that hot start he had from three, it's becoming an issue for the Rockets. One of my favorite games within the game, Anthony Edwards against various pick and roll coverages, particularly like he's been very passive is the wrong word, but when you blitz him, he's been very diligent about just getting off the ball, making the simple pass, getting the Wolves offense moving. I like when the blitzes are a little softer than they need to be, a little later than they need to be, a little lower on the floor than they need to be. I love when he's like, oh, you didn't come all the way up here. I'm just going to either go split the trap and go through you or I'M so much faster than you, big man. Help defender X. I'm going right around you toward the rim. And the same thing for drop coverage. He loves mid range jumpers. He's a great mid range shooter. He's one of the most dominating scorers in the league. He's the number one reason I've been optimistic about the Wolves all year. Sometimes when he, when he sees the right big man in drop coverage, he's just like, I'm going at you, I'm not going to try to shoot over you, I'm just going at you. And I love when he does that and when he mixes that aggression in, it's, it's, it takes the Wolves offense, I think, to another level and gets his rim frequency up even higher and his free throws up even higher. Let's see, what else do I have in my notes here? Oh, just one more thing. Devin Bissell leveling up. Not getting I think as much attention as Wembanyama. Obviously. Stefan Castle, one of my favorite players in the league to watch. Preposterously good on both ends of the floor for a second year guard. His passing is crazy, a little turnover prone, but his vision is like very advanced for his spot in his career. Dylan Harper, awesome. Devin Vassell is one of those sort of just glue guys that makes stitches the whole thing into a coherent lineup. He's treated like an A plus shooter by defenses and he basically is great three point shooter, good mid range shooter. Getting a little more feisty going to the rim and a little more creative trying to finish around the rim and defensively, you know, I remember I interviewed him a couple years ago from my most intriguing players in the league thing and that was one of the areas where he talked about like, I probably haven't been as good defensively as I need to get and I think the spurs were a little like that. We thought you'd be a little bit better. He's, he's getting into it now. He's in people's jerseys, he's in passing lanes, he's getting deflections. He's taken on tougher assignments when he needs to. That's been a quiet and I think important subplot in the spurs rise to championship contention and lottery stuff. I talk a little bit about it with Nick Friedel later, but I do think there's going to be big change before the 2027 draft. Certainly teams I talked to expect there to be big change and I'm starting to hear there's some momentum for one of the systems that incentivizes winning after a certain date in the season. Now that's a complicated thing to enact. It may not ever get passed. It's complicated to sort of work through about what's the date, how do we set the date? Do teams know the date? How much do wins count? How do they count for lottery odds? But of all the sort of bigger proposals, bigger than let's change pick protection rules, let's tweak the odds here or there. Of all the bigger ones, I've heard more momentum for something like that than than other kinds of stuff like the wheel or let's put all 30 teams in the lottery or whatever. So just something to keep an eye on. All right, let's bring in Nick Friedel to talk about the Golden State warriors and whatever the hell is happening. This episode is brought to you by TaxAct. TaxAct is your offensive coordinator for tax season, guiding you step by step with your maximum refund guaranteed. Get tips along the way, add expert assist to talk to tax experts or let our experts do your taxes for you with expert full service. TaxAct helps you find the deductions and credits you deserve so you can get them over with. Visit taxact.com to learn more. Conditions apply to see tech sack.com for details. Bidding with them well, well, well, look who it is. The beat reporter you do not want on your team's beat because he's like freaking Eeyore where he goes, the gray clouds go. Nick Friedel, who went from the Bulls suck beat at ESPN all over the place, the Nets for a hot second and it all went haywire there. And now the warriors, who are 32 and 32 after losing two. Let me check Blake Hinson and the Utah Jazz. With a skeleton crew of warriors, they have fallen to ninth in the Western Conference in the bottom half of the playing bracket, which is as far as they can fall because ain't no one below them other than Portland trying to win games in the West. And it's just this year is just a sad trombone. Jimmy's gone. KP's in and out of the lineup. He finally came back the other day, did not play against Utah. The team is obviously not going anywhere this season. The best they can do is get into the eighth or seventh seed and get smacked around in the first round. The more interesting questions are about the future Mr. Friedel. Draymond Green has a player option for next season. Kristaps Porzingis is a free agent. Stephan Stephen Curry is approaching age 39. I think Jimmy Butler will Miss let's say half the season optimistically, if not more recovering from his acl. And Steve Kerr doesn't have a contract to coach the team next year. What.
- [72:53]
B
What's ha. What.
- [72:54]
A
How are you, Nick? Because it's a lot of Guy Santos, who, God bless him, is playing hard. The. Anthony Melton's been great. I think Pajemski has been solid. He's extension eligible. Quinton Post sometimes starts, sometimes barely plays. Just. It's the other Curry played last night, not Stephen, but Seth. There's dudes in the box score the first time they play like that guy's on the wars. I didn't even know. It's. It's a rough watch right now. And it was like when the Jimmy injury happened, we knew, like, it's probably over. It was probably already over, but it's now it's over, over. But now you're in this stage of like, everyone is sitting with the reality that, like, this is it. This is what we have right now. How's it going there?
- [73:37]
C
I miss you, too. First of all, hearing all going through, you know, this is your life. It's always good to be back with you and have these moments, I think off the top here. Let's say the good News. Steph's turning 38.
- [73:53]
A
38, 39.
- [73:55]
C
So you don't want to age him even more than where he's going to be. But as far as the warriors go, yeah, this is the reality of their situation. They have all these older pieces, they have all this money that's still on the books. I think next year can be interesting. I think this year has been. They've been one of the most interesting teams I've ever covered, which is saying something given all the. The crazy teams that I've covered through the years. But every day there's something going on. But the reality is the warriors thought at the beginning of the season that they could still, in the best case scenario, be on really the fringes of title contention, and it just didn't happen. They were losing games early, the schedule was rough. You can't rely on Steph and Jimmy at the age they're at and Draymond to play at the same high level every single night. Injuries caught up to him, Zach. As we look ahead to the future, the reality is Steph has only ever said, I want to be in one place. So he's not going anywhere. Jimmy's going to rehab the knee. You hope he comes back somewhere around maybe the middle of next year. You've got to Figure that Draymond's picking up that option worth 27, 28 million dollars. And with Porzingis, if he can prove at all that he can stay on the floor, absolutely, he fits. But he hasn't been able to prove that. So I don't know why anybody would feel confident about that going into the summer where I still have at least some semblance of hope for them to be not just entertaining next season to cover, but I think they could still have a little bit of a push is they do have all those picks and I think they have one more move within them. Do I think they're going to win another title? No. But I think if you put all the picks and you make the salaries work, you can get one more player to put around Stephen to try and make one more run. The reality is their run as a top level title contender is done.
- [76:06]
A
And as I've said many times, this was always the most likely scenario. This is what happens to stars who stay with their teams their entire career and have great teams. It's what happens to great teams. They get old and the young cavalry ain't ready in time for the old guys to really win big anymore. And there is honor in being a good competitive team. And I do think this team's still 500. If Jimmy had stayed healthy, the schedule was easing up for them, right? Like the pre January, their schedule is hellacious and it's gotten much more spaced out and easy since then. They were really sort of looking forward to that as a time to write themselves. They were going to trade Kaminga for something that was going to help them this year. It ended up being Porzingis who they really did think like, great fit for our team will definitely help us this year. Obviously just hasn't played very much and, and I think there was a reasonable expectation that hey, we can, we can challenge Phoenix for the sixth spot. We can get in. We can be the easily the best team in the play in. If not for the seventh spot, rather maybe challenge for the six spot. Get in and make some noise because their record with Jimmy and Steph was what it was last year, which is awesome. They won a playoff series. Who knows what happens in the Minnesota series if Steph doesn't get hurt. I picked the Wolves before the series anyway, for the record, but still, it would have been a competitive series and I think there's a roadmap to them being a good team next year and that's completely fine. I'm glad you put the Steph stuff to bed because you know, people are going to bring up the Steph this step that. Can we get Steph to a winner? Steph's not going anywhere. They're not trading Steph. He's not going to be asked to be traded unless something crazy happens. The Draymond and Kerr ones are the interesting ones to me, and I legitimately don't know what's going to happen with either one of those cases. And then the trade. They got three and a half picks to trade. We know who. Choice number, choice A. I was going to say choice number A. Choice letter A. Choice number one. A, B and C is going to be. It's Giannis. Yeah, they can definitely be outbid for Giannis. We don't know what's going to happen with him over the summer. Like, at this point, I'm starting to think, is he just never going to ask for a trade? Like every Wolf of Wall street meme that gets posted, I'm like, dude, what's happening? Like, are you just. Are you like, I don't know what's happening, and if not him, then I just don't know really who it is that they would go all in for. So I don't know, man. It's kind of makes me sad. And there's like, this whole idea that they should just sort of tank the rest of the season. They can't tank out of the play in. So I'm assuming that when Steph is. Steph is healthy and this runner's knee thing is run its course, I assume he's going to play and they're going to try to win. Is that correct, or am I wrong about that?
- [78:44]
C
No, he wants to play. He just hasn't been able to be out there now in a month and a half. And everybody thought going into the break, Zach, that he was going to be out there, and then he came back and he couldn't really move and get up and down. And you get really worried when you start dealing with a knee issue for any player at that age. But it's Steph, and he makes the world go around within that organization, as we all know. So I think he still wants to play. The next couple weeks are going to be really interesting there because, you know, he wants to be out there, but they're going to sit there and say, steph, if you are not 100%, we're not putting you anywhere near the floor because it's not worth it. We all agree they're in the playing. They're going to probably get absolutely drilled if they were to get out of the play in and get into the first round and then what. So as far as the curve stuff, I absolutely think he's coming back next year.
- [79:46]
A
Okay.
- [79:48]
C
Really shock me if he doesn't come back because he and Steph have the relationship that is like this. There is a respect level between each of them in whatever Steph wants with this team, Steph is going to get. If Steph wants Steve Kerr there, and he said it repeatedly through time that that's his guy, then he should be there to finish this thing out. And Kerr will get a ton of money to do it. But I think he really is still enjoying this and the process and the day to day of I'm going to get everything I can out of this group. I think he really likes coaching the younger guys. You mentioned Guy Santos. He's taking a leap. I know Pods gets crushed within parts of the fan base, but he's playing a little bit better lately.
- [80:35]
A
I don't. I. I think. I think the warriors did Pods a disservice. I mean, didn't he also say something about being an All Star? Sonny Pod. There's. Isn't there an unfortunate Pods quote out there? It's not just the. It's not just like the warriors like Lake of saying stuff that is a little over their skis about Pods. He's a good player. I don't. I never expected All Star status or whatever. I would be happy with what Pods is right now. I'd be happy to extend him at a reasonable rate. But there is a bad Pod. Not bad, but there is a Pod's quote. It's not just other people, right, that we're talking him up.
- [81:09]
C
Well, I think the thing that really irked a lot of people, but I think it got taken out of context was Pod said, I want to be as good as Steph Curry. But in reality, the context was that he was giving Steph a compliment before, before that he got into that answer. He was saying, a lot of people say they want to be Steph Curry, but they don't want to put the work in to become Steph Curry. And then a reporter goes, well, do you want to be Steph Curry? He's like, well, of course I want to be Steph Curry. But, you know, in hindsight, he should have just said, ah, there's only one of those guys. I'm going to work as hard as I can to be the best player I can. And then that thing kind of took on a life of its own. And there were a Few other quotes that got under people's skin, but I'm with you. As far as Pods goes, he can be a solid player in the league and you have these other guys like Moses Moody. He's taken a nice step here in the last couple of months.
- [82:04]
A
It's a great value contract, by the way. Moses, absolutely.
- [82:07]
C
The problem though is the hope was for the warriors that Pods and Moody and Kaminga and I, the coming of conversation never seems to go away with this team, but that one or all of them were going to take a step this year. They were going to go from wherever they were the last couple seasons up here and it never happened. And so now you have this veteran team with these nice rotation pieces, but you have this gap between the Stephs and Jimmy's and everybody else. And it's wider, I think, than people were expecting. And we haven't even gotten into really the fact that Draymond just has not played that well this season. But he built this thing with Stephen Clay and I think they're going to give him the opportunity, if it's not Giannis, to ride it out and see how it goes.
- [83:00]
A
Yeah, he, you know, Draymond did say before the deadline, like, I'm prepared to be traded potentially. Then I saw him, he was on Fred Van Vliet's podcast, I guess this week, saying about how, you know, some warriors fans seem to want him to be traded and, you know, well, you guys sucked before I got here and I like the pride he takes in having built this because he did help. I mean, Steph built it more than anyone else, but Draymond was a critical part of it. And I still, you know, without him, they don't win all these titles without his defense, his versatility. I mean, he. Not single handedly, but he was the most important ingredient in making them an elite defensive team is passing with Stephen on and on and on. I hope he gets to see it out there. I am interested to see what happens with him this summer and I'm a little, I think am more than you just eyeing the Kerr thing. And I agree with you that he and Steph are like this, that Steph would prefer he be the coach. It's more to me about what, what Steve wants to do and I guess we'll. And just negotiations with Joe Lakob are not always fun. I mean, Bob Myers was just like, I'm out. Like I don't want to do this anymore. And I do think so. You mentioned the play in and getting maybe drilled out of the play in that's really their tanking scenario, is get in the lottery by losing in the play in, and then let's take our chances in the lottery and maybe we get lucky. And that's. I mean, maybe that's the quote, smart thing for them to do. We've not really ever seen a team get into the play in and not give its full best shot at getting out of the play in. It might just be their full best shot isn't good enough against Phoenix and, you know, whoever else they draw, the Clippers, whatever it is. So we'll see and then next year. I think there's an expectation around the league that the lottery rules are going to change by the 2027 draft and the 2027 lottery in a way that makes it more favorable and more palatable for a team like Golden State, a team that's kind of in the middle, to just say, let's keep trying, let's just be competitive. It's not worth it for us to tank because the rules are a little bit more weighted towards being competitive or whatever. I do think there's going to be pretty significant change, and I think some of those teams in those. Those spots are already factoring that into their planning.
- [85:19]
C
I agree with you. I think the running joke, I would tell you anecdotally, as I've traveled with the warriors the last couple weeks, is there are people on other teams that are going off. This all sets up for the warriors to roll out of the play in and up. We got the third pick. How did that happen? We got Steph one more piece to. To ride out the last couple of years or however long he plays. So certainly that is a narrative that's going to grow more steam, I feel like, in the next few weeks here. But if you're the warriors and Zach, to me, it ties right back to what Draymond has said repeatedly. And I think this is an important wrinkle to this conversation. There's a standard that's been set within this team for years, and they want to live up to it still. And I think for them, the way they're looking at it when I'm. When I say they, I mean Steph Draymond and Steve Kerr. There's honor in playing this thing out as hard as you can and seeing how far you can take it in this moment. That's why, again, I don't think they're winning another title. I do think they're going to try to make one more move, though, because they know that with the pieces, they have. And they're waiting for Jimmy off the knee injury, and we'll see how he looks whenever he does return. They don't have enough right now. So, absolutely, I believe that Giannis Kawhi, somebody that we're not thinking of right now, somebody's going to appear here to. Or at least they're going to try to make them appear. Where you look at next season and you go, all right, well, I don't think the warriors are getting there, but they're going to be competitive as hell and. And for the same reason, nobody wants to see him in a play. And now if Steph gets back, all of a sudden, nobody's going to want to look at a motivated warriors team that already feels like the world has written them off and see them in any kind of games that matter. The question, of course, is, one, how are you going to get whomever that player is on the roster? And two, can they stay healthy? And Zach, the problem for the warriors, as we've seen this year, is the answer to that has been a large no. Jimmy got hurt. Steph's been off and on hurt, and he's been out for a while now. And they just don't have the younger pieces that can fill in the gaps that they need. But in an ideal world for the warriors, if all these different dominoes line up, and that's a whole lot of ifs, but if they did, you can understand why they feel like they still have the talent to compete against anybody on any given night.
- [88:02]
A
It's also, you mentioned how do we get that player on the roster if there's another player, There's a. Like, who it is. You mentioned Kawhi. I mean, I don't. There's nothing to that, I'm assuming, but they've sniffed around market and they sniffed around Paul George. Like, those guys are either not available or in Paul George's case, just. It doesn't make any sense. But yeah, you have to start thinking about what shakes loose from playoff teams who disappoint. What shakes loose? If there is a mega trade, whether it's Giannis or someone else for third and fourth teams, is there a distressed asset like Zion that becomes available, like all this kind of stuff. But then you have the warriors, like, the salary math is hard for them. Like, how do they get. If they want to keep Draymond, what's the money that's getting you up to 30, 40, $50 million? You can do Porzingis in a sign in trade, but like a. There are some apron limitations for that. If they, if they come up against them and be like, I don't know if anyone's really dying to get poor Zingis on, like a big money, like a big enough money contract to make a deal work, combined with lots of other contracts. And then you got the commingo ball coming up in 10 days. Are you ready for that? Golden State at Atlanta look out. I mean, the Hawks fans are like, Dominique Wilkins is taunting the Warriors.
- [89:11]
C
That, that is pretty unbelievable. You know, you've got two games against the, the, the tanking Wizards who might as well wear helmets on the. They're just playing really not to, not to win at all. And you got Kaminga dominating. Then, boom, he's out with a knee injury. I mean, Zach, for all the hype that was around those first Kaminga games in Atlanta, Kaminga has played three games. And Porzingis, with all the health issues that he's had, as we're sitting here taping this, has played two. So you know how this plays out over time. We'll see. And if everybody's out there on the floor that night, it'll be interesting. But I cannot stress this to you enough. No matter what side you're on in warriors land, Gaming is going to be an All Star or, man, I've had it watching this guy. He's not consistent enough. This was a divorce that had to happen. Had to. It had reached way past the point of it working and everybody's coming together and all, let's make up for the better best. But parts of the family, no. Kaminga had had it. The warriors, while they had always supported him behind the scenes, when he didn't play in that game, I think it was right after the first of the year against OKC and they didn't have anybody else on the floor. And an hour before he's got back soreness, that was it as far as the front office and everybody else was concerned. So Kaminga has the chance now to prove whatever he's going to do in Atlanta or maybe beyond wherever he goes after that. And the warriors have to figure out, can they make it work with Porzingis, can he get them another piece? Although I'm with you, who's looking to add Porzingis and the issues that he's had right now. But it was over with Kaminga and the Warriors. There was no way it was going to work anymore. And I think everybody on all sides of that deserves blame because it had gotten to a point where it just wasn't workable for anyone involved first of
- [91:19]
A
all, nobody knows back soreness like General soreness, who is in the warriors locker room? The Jimmy Butler, AKA General soreness, asked Tibbs about it. Second of all, I think everyone laughs at the Kaminga fascination, right? Like, seldom has a flawed role player been the subject of such drooling attention and every move and every tweet is scrutinized. And that's partly because it's the warriors and they have become a glamour franchise that has a gazillion fans and everybody cares about them. But it's part of what we said about Moody and Pajemski, too, that the only one that looked to have like, this guy could pop into like an almost all star was Kaminga because of the athleticism and the burst and the physicality and all that stuff. And yeah, the feel for the game was lacking by Warrior standards and all that. We don't need to revisit everything. I agree with you that nobody in this is blameless, like, literally nobody. Everyone has blame on them for the Kaminga thing, but that's why. And we'll see. Like you said, it's been three games in Atlanta, all against bad teams, basically. But I think that was the reason why there was so much Kaminga fascination, because you whiff with the Wiseman pick, you whiff on trading that pick, you're unable to trade it for anything impactful and that becomes your like, well, this is our last best shot at a star and it didn't happen. And here we are, man, it's the Twilight is often not as glamorous as you hope it's going to be. I would like to see them get Clay back. Let's go full nostalgia, Clay. Clay can still go on some heaters that are pretty fun.
- [92:50]
C
Oh, Mr. Lowe, I feel like that's a divorce that probably had to happen and it's going to stay divorced. I think the storyline would be great and it would be fun, but. But you want to talk some bad blood? I think on both sides it was better that everybody moved on. Clay will end up with a statue outside Chase and he'll be hell yes, forever. But as far as a piece on whatever this team becomes next year, all I would tell you, though, is being back around the warriors every day. On a much broader note, to me, they are by far and away still the most interesting team in the league. And the Kaminga thing is another reminder of the power of Steph, because It's been said 100 different times, you put Kaminga on any other team and it's like all right, you know, here's this guy who can score 25 and dominate and here's this guy another night who has six and just disappears and isn't playing the type of winning basketball that top level teams need. But as I watch that whole thing unfold and I see all the different storylines that play out for this team on a day to day basis, I am reminded always this season how important the warriors are to this league because they generate interest every single day. And the diehards will say of basketball, oh, but the interest isn't always on the floor. Okay, fine, but they're still interesting on the floor, especially when Steph's there. And they have so much intrigue on a regular basis that it kind of makes your head spin. Especially in a year where they're literally 500. I mean, this is not a team that is going to dominate the way they used to, but to me, it's not even close. This is the most interesting team in basketball and it's why there's still so much interest in what they do.
- [94:42]
A
Not to pile intrigue atop intrigue, but they are one of the only plausible LeBron alternatives.
- [94:51]
C
Oh yeah.
- [94:51]
A
For, for next season. And it'll be tbd what they have to offer. It could be the mid level, it could be the mini mid level. It could, there could be all sorts of sign and trade possibilities potentially. You know, Bill has touted them as a, as a potential LeBron destination. I. The way this Lakers thing is going right now, I find it hard to believe he's going to go back to the Lakers again. I don't know. It's all speculation. The Cavs thing, I think depends on his appetite for taking a huge pay cut. And what they do in the playoffs, the Knicks will see they've got a lot of other things. And then the warriors, who we know they tried to trade for him, we know that they have shown interest in the past. We know that he and Steph have incredible chemistry from Team usa. Like, we know all those things are true and that the LeBron side kind of nixed it before it got started when they went owner to owner and the owner Jeannie Butts said check with race. Paul Ramona Shelburne wrote about all this. I, like, I wouldn't close the book on that. And if I'm the Warriors, it's like, why not depending on what the price is, if we're not going to cripple our cap sheet and forever like, and we don't have to trade any picks for him. Like, I think that's interesting.
- [95:59]
C
There are only so many teams too, at this point, Zach. They could take on LeBron and the star wattage that he carries. At least to me, the warriors have done it before. They know what it's like to live under that microscope. I think where LeBron is at this stage of his career, I don't know how much of a difference he's going to make as far as taking the warriors or any other team from where they are to some completely next level, because I don't know how you could expect that after all the wear and tear and the minutes he's played. But they would be fascinating to watch, because if you put LeBron and Steph, even at their extended NBA ages together, we know what it can do. We've seen the glimpses in the Olympics, and I'd also say, and I think this is why it might get a little more run in the playoffs. We know LeBron and Draymond's relationship that's well established. LeBron and Steph's relationship has gone through, like a lot of peaks and valleys through the years, but I remember talking to Steph earlier this season and he said, hey, we're going to do a lot of business together in the future. It's something that we've talked about. And I think that the relationship that was a little icy, especially as Steph grew in his own prominence and he kind of developed as the. The one. A face to LeBron for the league. I don't know whether it was jealousy from LeBron, but there was something there, especially because the warriors kept beating LeBron in the biggest games that matter.
- [97:29]
A
Remember the Halloween party at the season after the Cavs won the title and they had all the tombstones for 73 wins and three. One series lead? I was like, that. That was cold, man.
- [97:39]
C
That was pretty good. But I say that because I think it has thought and I think that relationship specific to those two guys is in a better place now. Whether that means that LeBron plays out his final year, however long he's going to go with the warriors, we'll see. But it would be really, really intriguing. And one more time, it would be fantastic for the league. With all the talk about taking and all the drama around, ah, the regular season, it's just not very good anymore. It doesn't feel right. People are just tuning in, the casual fans into the playoffs and they're kind of not following what's going on. If you put those two guys on that team and you get a motivated LeBron, or excuse me, Motivated Draymond coming back. I think that could be really something special for the NBA as a whole.
- [98:32]
A
And Jimmy.
- [98:34]
C
And Jimmy. But how, you know, like you said, and I think this is crucial to any warriors conversation. We can sit here and dream up all these different possibilities. How do you make it work cap wise? And how much money is LeBron willing to leave on the table in this scenario to make this kind of thing work?
- [98:52]
A
Well, I. One of the reasons why it's plausible, I mean, this is baked into the chemistry the two have, is that Steph is the rare superstar, super duper star who does not dominate the ball the way Luka does and even Reaves does. And we've seen that that's proved sort of an awkward fit for to have two of those guys and LeBron and the Cavs, like James Harden plus Donovan Mitchell plus LeBron, I think would have. Would be a little weird in that sense. Less even. Even Jimmy. Like part of the frustration warriors fans have had off and on with Jimmy is like, dude, can you take the ball and do stuff when Steph is off the floor? Like, we need you to actually chase 25, 30 points. It's cool that you cut and screen, do all these warriors things. Can you do the thing where the ball goes in the basket? That's one of the reasons why I would be intrigued. All right, Nick Friedel, look, you've got to. I gotta let you go because you got to prepare for the Commingle Bowl. You need a full 10 days to get your notes ready, to get. To get ready for the intensity. It's always great to see you. And I would also not want to see you around my favorite team. Please do not ever cover the Mets, Okay? No, don't ever become a baseball reporter and cover the Mets. Okay? That's all I ask of you.
- [99:57]
C
Yeah, I love you, too. And I thought before the Commingo bowl, we've got a Bulls reunion, Bulls warriors on Tuesday night. So that should be really fun seeing what's going on with that team.
- [100:09]
A
Yeah, it's going to be great. You're going to have a blast.
- [100:13]
C
Not as much of a blast as the other side of the Bulls. People will see in me, I'm sure.
- [100:18]
A
Yeah. All right, Nick Friedel, you're the man.
- [100:20]
C
See you, boy. Thanks for having me.
- [100:23]
A
All right, that's it for today's episode of the Zach Lowe Show. We'll be back Thursday from la, where I will be for a couple days doing some Amazon stuff. Thanks to Nick Friedel. Thanks to John Hollinger. Thanks to Mike and Oscar on production. And thanks as always to all of you for listening to and or watching the Zach Lowe Show. 21 are over and President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over in President D.C. kentucky. Your Wyoming gambling problem. Call 1-800- GAMBLER or 1-800-MY-RESET, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatincenectic or is it mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland? Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050. For 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New York. For Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7867. Monster Energy Everybody knows White Monster Zero Ultra, that's the OG. It kicked off this whole zero sugar energy drink thing, but Ultra is a whole lineup now. You've got Strawberry Dreams, Blue Hawaiian Sunrise and Vice Guava, and they all bring the Monster Energy punch. So if you've been living in the White can branch out. Ultra's got a flavor for every vibe, and every single one is Zero Sugar. Tap the banner to learn more.