Steve Jones Jr. (3:04)

I had Knicks in six.

Zach Lowe (3:05)

Me too.

Steve Jones Jr. (3:07)

What was the other one you said?

Zach Lowe (3:09)

Nuggets. Wolves.

Steve Jones Jr. (3:10)

I had Nuggets in seven.

Zach Lowe (3:12)

Okay. I had Nixon six. I still feel good despite the hilarity of the last game and I had Nuggets in six. Still feel pretty good about the Nuggets in six or seven. But that's going to be a fun one tonight. As those resume, we'll see what adjustments come to bear. Let's talk about the games from last night. First, Oklahoma City, Phoenix looked very much like the headline of that game was going to be Whoa. Jalen Williams is like all the way back. He's spinning through double teams. He's roasting Oso Iguodara on switches. He's running in transition. His size on defense. You like feel it on the wing is Phoenix is like is he? Where is he? Is he going to rotate here? Is he going to rotate? Oh, we just turned the ball over again and then the headline shifted to oh, hamstring pulled up in the third quarter. He'll have an MRI today. We'll know today, tomorrow, whenever what his status is. I would assume they treated this. It was the other hamstring in the regular season, but they erred on the side of extreme caution in the regular season because they're were the number one seed the whole season. They didn't need to do anything up 20 in this series. I would expect them to also air on the side of maybe less extreme caution, but I would expect so. But I do expect them to miss some time. Just, you know, you have the luxury of it. Steve. When do they actually need Jalen Williams to or or do do could they win the title without Jalen Williams?

Steve Jones Jr. (4:38)

I mean, based on the success they had all year, you can make the argument that they could because they have the depth, they still have the lineup versatility, the defense is still strong. I think part of I'm glad you mentioned it. The shame of the injury is you really felt the Force that he played with on both ends of the floor and how he can elevate them. Just a reminder of how good Jalen Williams is for this Oklahoma City Thunder machine. So for me, I think to win a championship in this Western Conference, they will probably need him. Absolutely. By the conference finals. By the latest, I would agree, second

Zach Lowe (5:08)

round, I think next round, which we will talk about, even if it ends up being the Lakers with Luka and Reaves at just say wildly optimistic. They're both 90% of themselves. I think they could beat the Lakers without J Dub. That's how good they are. They have all, you know, they have AJ Mitchell, they have Kayson, Wallace, they have Caruso will now play every game, which he doesn't in the regular season. They went double big a little bit more right away last night after J Dub got hurt. But the shame of it is, not only was he playing well, a couple of things happened right before he got injured that I was like super excited to see. Number one, they ran an empty side pick and roll with him and Hartenstein on the right side of the floor. That ended in a lob dunk for Hartenstein with Shay off the ball. And like that's one of the things that having A.J. mitchell is a very good player. You can move Shea off the ball a little bit when they share the floor. J Dub is bigger, which you actually really feel, I think defensively when he's like the second biggest guy on the floor. In their chat at the five or whoever at the five lineups, they're one big lineups. But he's also like, this guy's an all NBA level ball handler, an all NBA level secondary option. And you can, it just opens up more stuff for Shay and they also finally, I've been waiting for this, Steve Jones Jr. They trotted out Shea, Caruso, AJ Mitchell, J Dub and Chet, which is a five man lineup that played seven possessions in the regular season. And I'm like, maybe they just don't want to try this out. Maybe it's too small. They, maybe it's like they want Lou, they want Casen. They finally trotted it out and I was like, yes, let's go. And then he got hurt right away. But I, I do think, I do think as great as they are, whoever gets to the conference finals assuming Wemby is healthy and knock on wood, he will be after this concussion, assuming the Nuggets, whoever gets through that side of the bracket is healthy, I just think those teams are so good that the margin from as great as Oklahoma City is to how their ceiling is nudged up with a 68 monster like that. I do think they need him to to the finals.

Steve Jones Jr. (7:09)

No, I agree especially with San Antonio's ability to poke at them defensively and then Denver their ability to, you know, score on the other end. I think you need Jaylen Williams and his force, especially with how teams want to guard sh. You put Jaylen Williams one pass away, you're trying to help. It makes a huge difference.

Zach Lowe (7:26)

I don't know what to really say about this series. Oklahoma City is plus 25 per 100 possessions. The Suns offense is drawing dead. The Suns have turned the ball over on 21% of their possessions, which is you have no shot. The Thunder are just making them shoot a ton of contested pull up mid range jumpers. Their threes are way down, their rim shots are way, way down and only 19% of their shots have come at the basket. They just have no answer for the Thunder defense. So let's talk about the officiating because that became a story last night. Devin Booker called out James. Was it James Williams? I think by name for having a crap game. Maybe it was J. James Capers. I can't remember which James it was. It was one of them. And we had, let's see, we had a unnatural off most shooting motion offensive foul on Devin Booker. We had Devin Booker getting called for a technical for kind of saving the ball in a scrum play there. There was actually a foul call but he saved it and hit big Jalen Williams in the butt. He got called for a technical and I understand the frustration. Do you under. I'll just put it to you. Do you understand the frustration? Did you think that was a officiating like shaking aim?

Steve Jones Jr. (8:38)

I mean I never really think too much about the officials. That's my dad's fault. But I think for if you're in the perspective of Devin Booker. Yeah, I'm. They're really physical. They're hitting me, they're showing their hands. Every drive I'm getting hit. I'm kind of tired of it. I'm not getting the calls I need. I'm out of rhythm. I'd like to go home and get some calls. So I understand that portion of it as far as it goes. I think OKC's defense has been too overwhelming for me to say, hey, they are purely winning this because no one's gonna say that. But I mean I think if I'm Devin Booker and this is the playoffs, we played, you know, a little bit of Game of Thrones Here, let's talk about the ref so we can change this. So I can get some quick whistles, I can get in rhythm, and we can have some fun when I go home. So I think that is more of the play. And it's not even something he usually does. This is like, what, the first time that he's really just gone out like this. To this degree.

Zach Lowe (9:29)

I like it. I just like, I respect him because he does not do this. Like, you know that there's going to be Dylan Brooks chicanery in this series. And there was a lot last night, and it was delightful. First of all, Shea and Lou Dort with Hall of Fame level facial expressions in reaction to Dylan Brooks. Just hall of Fame. Shea's like, look at this guy over here. And that. There was a. I couldn't decide if he flipped the bird or not. It was like, he's pointing, but in the act of pointing the middle fingers elevated, I. Then he quickly switched to the thumb. They're like, oh, look at this guy. And then Lou Dort, when they got tangled up under the rim, gave just a great, like, like, whoa, okay. All right. But I hated the first of all, I hate all reviews, but I hated the offensive foul on Booker where he went up into Caruso and they called it an unnatural shooting motion. Looked normal to me. And then like a few minutes after that, maybe it was even the possession after that, Shay isolated on Gillespie. Now Gillespie puts his left arm out to try to cut Shea off. And you know what's going to happen. There's reason why guys defend Shea with their hands behind their back sometimes. And then Shay picks up his dribble, sticks the ball underneath Gillespie's arm and raises it up and gets a foul call. It's a rip through. It's a, it's, I guess a foul. But like, it's a wildly unnatural shooting motion. Like, it actually looks like if you watch the shooting motion, it looks like he's going to shoot a two handed underhand shot up around Gillespie's arm. If not, if that's not an unnatural shooting motion, what is? And then Shet had the classic, like, pump fake. Guy kind of bites on a little bit in the second half and I just like barf into him and get a foul call. So I get the frustration. And the technical was bullshit. Sorry, that was a bad technical.

Steve Jones Jr. (11:15)

So, so, so you think the refs, they didn't, they didn't have the best effort in that game?

Zach Lowe (11:20)

I didn't. I don't think it matters because Oklahoma City's Defense is just so good. And you just watch these Booker, Green, whatever, Gillespie pick and rolls. And here comes, you know, they bring the big guy up. Oso comes up, Chet Iheart, big Jill and Williams, whoever it is, they're up pretty high to cut off the ball handler. Two shooters on the weak side. In comes the low man. As you pointed out on Twitter, they seem to like having Shea as the low man. The Suns, even though Shay is just blocking shots at the rim like fucking Dikembe Mutombo in this series. And then, and then there's one other guy and you really, this is where you really feel Jalen Williams size when he's the zone up guy between Shays guy in the corner and the other shooter on the wing. The Suns try to bring that shooter up toward the top of the arc to make that Jalen Williams defender defend the most space possible. And it just like doesn't even matter because the Thunder are so big and so fast, especially when they have J dubbed the size factor. And so tenacious that you can see the ball handlers pause and second guess themselves. Like Booker had one you highlighted on Twitter where Iguidaro was like wide open under the rim, rolled to the rim, rolled behind the big guy defender. Booker rises up to shoot or pass or something. 12ft away. Looks like an easy dump off, but he sees this monster 6, 8, Jalen Williams rotating down toward Iguidaro kind of panics because he's coming real fast and he's big and tries to throw it against his momentum back outside and it gets picked off. And there was like three of those where Devin Booker went left on a pick and roll, got up, thought he had something, realized I don't know what I have. I might have something. It's not what I thought I had and I might have that other thing over there, but they're coming that way and through this pass against his momentum and it was stolen or went out of bounds and there's just, they're just under talented against this team. They don't have enough offensive firepower. I would be surprised if they won a game. But the defense is obviously a warning shot to the rest of the league. Like we have another gear we can get to and we're already at it.

Steve Jones Jr. (13:30)

They just, they close windows so quick as you said. And I think the biggest thing is like in theory, if you're Phoenix, Devin Booker should be able to get this coverage that should open this up. And Oklahoma City is too versatile and they have too much nuance to have to where Their bigs can be at the level, they can mix in a switch. We can help on the weak side. You're thinking there's an advantage, it's gone. Next time we give you something different. So how many times have you seen Phoenix try to run a set, go off ball, try and get Booker off ball? Trying some dribble handoffs. Play through Oso. Oklahoma City denies their physical and you look, there's 14 on the clock and either Dylan Brooks, Devin Booker, Jalen Green has the ball with a pause of okay, I guess I have to go find one. That's not ideal. They've just taken a lot of things off the offensive menu for the Suns.

Zach Lowe (14:15)

Yeah, I mean, we can sit here and talk about like, maybe they'll start Royce o' Neill for some more shooting and he certainly loosened up the offense last night. Maybe Grayson Allen gets healthy, that would help. Maybe Mark Williams gets healthy, that would help. And on there's not. I would be surprised no matter who plays. If they want a game in the series, no shame in that. The only thing that's going to matter coming out of the series is Jalen Williams health. And we'll learn about it more in the next 42 to 78 hours. Whatever. Whatever it is, or 48 to 72 hours. I don't know why I went with the other numbers. Um, and you know, knock on wood, he's obviously had a brutal season of just one injury after another from the wrist, which he played through last year, to the right hamstring, to the left hamstring. And you just want. He's an all NBA player. You want to see him healthy. He obviously had legendary games in the finals last year that they needed every bit of them against the Pacers. And as great as they are and as sexy as a hot take, it might be to say they don't even need them to win the championship. Yeah, there's a universe where they can win the title without him because they'd be favorites over someone coming out of the east and all that. I just find it hard to believe that they can get through at least the last two playoff rounds without him. At that level of competition, maybe they could, but I think their margin shrinks to a dangerous place. Okay, any other thoughts on this series or can we switch gears and leave the Suns in the. In the desert?

Steve Jones Jr. (15:30)

We can switch gears.

Zach Lowe (15:32)

Orlando, Detroit. Steve, if you like offense, you should probably watch a different series in the regular season. The worst offense in the NBA, the Brooklyn Nets averaged 108 points per 100 possessions through two games in this slugfest. Detroit, 101 points per hundred possessions. Orlando 98 points per 100 possessions. It's they are 14th and 16th in offensive rating among the playoff teams with Phoenix sandwiched in between them. They are 15th and 16th among 16 playoff teams in three point percentage. So everybody is missing everything. But Detroit came out last night. They played a much cleaner defensive game. You could count the real mistakes on one hand after. After what I called a frazzled performance in Game one. And they had some counters to Orlando's scheme of switching the Cade Duran go underneath and switch and try to take Duran out of the game. Duran didn't have a. I thought Duran had another game. He looks really, really frazzled and sped up and forcing it on offense. But Detroit discovered some things about how to counter that. What did you see from the Pistons offense in terms of like, okay, we saw what Orlando did in Game one. Here's what we're going to come out and try to counter it in Game two.

Steve Jones Jr. (16:57)

Well, one, I thought Cade Cunningham set the tone early and Asar Thompson helped as far as just trying to get to a space where, okay, you had success mixing in, switching and being at the level and dropping back. I'm gonna, I'm gonna force your hand early, so I'm just gonna turn the corner And Wendell Carter Jr. You come with me. I'm in the paint. Asar, please try and do a help beater trees, please try and set a flare. I'll find you late. But also, hey, set this high screen for me. As soon as I see Wendell Carter Jr. Jump out, I'm just going to give you a pocket pass. Get a roll. Jaylen Duran, get a feel for something so we can get something. Here's a Sar Thompson cutting from the corner. That was big. I think little things like working to just set a pin down for a big. Whether it was Isaiah Stewart or Jalen Duran to try and get Orlando's big on the move to where, okay, you may want to switch, but it's not as comfortable because you're running up to where I'm at. So I think he got go on one early in that game. I think it was an adventure for Jaylen Durin. He couldn't quite get the drives going. I, I think he was thinking a lot, especially in that first half. I think you felt it like there was a possession about 130 mark in that second quarter. Jaylen Durant screens for Kate Cunningham, right, And Orlando switches Franz Vodner onto him and Cade fires it right to Javonte Green on the right wing, because he's thinking, okay, Jaylen Durant's going to roll and seal. Let's get you one, big fella. And Jalen Duran just buffered at the elbow, and it's like, oh, okay. And Cade's like, okay, give me the ball. And then he scores on Wendell Carter Jr. I think the big thing, if we're talking purely about Jalen Durant in the third quarter, was his ability to position himself to make sure that he got a role. And so he did a good job of flipping the angle of his screens. And so typically, if you're going to set a screen, the defense is going to just kind of slide and get themselves in a position where they can get under you, and then that way you can't roll. You're going into their body. He just kind of worked a position to where he could get a touch and then release, and that allowed him to get a roll. And so they went to these super high picking rolls, and he set them flat, and he's like, I'm actually not really hitting you. I'm just going to touch you and get out of here. And so them being able to get him rolling, I thought was really important that third quarter. The other thing was Cade Cunningham kind of looking at everyone on the Orlando Magic side saying, I think I can score on you, Paolo. Let's dance, Franz. Desmond Bain, Jalen Sugg, let's go. And I think part of that is poking at the switching aspect where, okay, I don't want you to be as comfortable. I feel comfortable attacking and getting to my spots. And if I could cycle through these matchups like it's not apples to apples, but the Miami Milwaukee series, where Jimmy Butler just didn't care who was guarding him and said, it doesn't matter. And now you're searching for something. If you're Detroit, can we get Cade to position where, okay, maybe we get Duran rolling. We also have Cade playing at this high level. Does that make Orlando change what they want to do defensively, and does that open things back up for us? Whatever playoff questions you have about Detroit, if we can get Duran rolling and we can get rotation from Orlando, we now at least have openings as opposed to just what game one was.

Zach Lowe (19:56)

Yeah, I don't want to exaggerate it. Like, The Pistons scored 99 points per hundred possessions last night. They had a bad offensive game, partly because they're turning it over like 20 times a game. And. And Duran is a big part of that. He's in his own head. He's you can see him being like, I got to do something. I haven't compromised the defense, but I'm let me just drive at Wendell Carter Jr. And see what happens. And what's happening is Wendell Carter Jr. Is just like, thanks, I'm going to take the ball and you're going to fall over and I'm going to dunk it on the other end. But to your point about like the switching going under and switching gum them up in game one. And last night I was waiting to see how they would adjust. And adjustment number one is exactly what you said. Jalen Duran slipping so hard out of these picks, sometimes not even setting them, like not setting a screen at all. Just like getting into the area where a pick were to happen, if it were to happen would happen here and then I'm out. And Cade understanding that and delivering the pass early like you can't switch, you don't have time to switch. And you saw Duran get a, he got one dunk out of it. He got flagrant fouled by Wendell Carter Jr. And then he hit a Sar Thompson for two dunks on sort of the big to big kind of passing. You saw that. And then you saw like you said Cade being like, oh, okay, but I'm Kate Cunningham. You're going to switch Wendell Carter Jr. Onto me. He can't guard me. I'm just going to go buy him. And yeah, there's going to be some traffic around the basket because we play a lot of guys who are non shooters but it's not traffic. I can't navigate because the biggest guy on the floor is the guy guarding me and I'm going to get by that guy. And like what am I'm afraid of Paolo Banchero around the room? I'm afraid of Desmond Bain? No, I'm just going to go and that the other thing to your point was he started to hunt other guys. And the Magic are not like a super huntable team. Like they have a lot of good defenders, but Kate Cunningham can do damage against Paolo Banchero. One on one. Kate Cunningham can beat Desmond Bane. One on one, he can post up Desmond Bane. And particularly if Bane is on Duncan Robinson. And I think last night was a reminder of how critical Duncan Robinson shooting and movement is to their team. If Bane's on Duncan Robinson, by all means start setting some Duncan Robinson screens for Cade Cunningham and start randomly flaring out here and there, slipping out of him, getting switches. And you even saw like they've had Duncan Robinson and Duran set like really sort of Random. I wouldn't even call them staggered screens. Just like they would just run up together like a big rugby scrum and set picks for Kate Cunningham and make the magic guess, like, what direction is Cade going to go? Wait, who's screening for who and where and why? Is it a back screen? Is it not? Where's Duncan Robinson going? Just sowing that kind of confusion. It's not. Again, it was a bad offensive game, but when they defend like they did last night, they just need like an okay offensive game. And I thought they made some of the right adjustments. Now, the question for you, put your coaching hat Jon Steve Jones Jr. Is you just saw that as Orlando, your offense is a whole other mess that we can talk about. But you saw what Detroit did against your defense. The counter came. What's your counter to the counter? If they have. They haven't figured anything out. But if the Pistons have at least found the right levers to pull against our go under and switch thing, which worked in Game one, we're going to see those same levers again. What's our adjustment for Game three?

Steve Jones Jr. (23:11)

Well, that's what I was looking for in that third quarter because Detroit really got some casual rules. But if I'm Orlando, I'm thinking, okay, we do not want to give two on the ball and just purely give them the roles. We could go drop and just drop back and try and contain and say, hey, this is the shot you get. We dictate terms that way. Or we could kind of stick and just try and mix and okay, let's make sure we protect and hey, Jalen Durant slips. Hey, you fight over, you know, show some nuance and let's try and mix things up to where we're not going to get this automatically. And so I think for Orlando, it's more they have to keep terms within what they've done in so far in Game one. Game two, they can't necessarily like Detroit as not great offensively as it was in totality. They can't let them feel unlocked. So I think it's okay. Maybe we just switch harder and maybe we show help earlier to take away the Jalen Durin roll and we just kind of recreate it that way. It's where we got this switch. You don't necessarily have the role still. And now we get you back to thinking a little bit. And so it could just be doubling down harder on that. But I don't know how much they want to just give Detroit traditional pick and roll coverages overall.

Zach Lowe (24:17)

Yeah, I could see them Going under on Cade and not switching. Just like we'll stay home, we'll still go under screens and like, if you can beat us with jump shots, beat us with jump shots and maybe he will. I could see them, like, if they switch, I could see them like sending a double team at Cade and just every once in a while just throw them off rhythm and say, hey, look, we're going to double. You get the ball out of your hands and we're going to force you to make a bunch of interior passes because again, you're not going to have clean spacing on the floor. Someone's going to be in the dunker spot, someone's going to be here. Just mix it up a little bit like that. What about Orlando's offense, which was good enough certainly in game one and was a little bit of a mess last night, I think fell into some of their more static bad habits, bad shot selection. It's funny, like the Magic talk a lot about how we can't let our offense dictate our defense. Like when we have a bad offensive game, sometimes our defense isn't good enough because, you know, players let their offense dictate their defense. I feel like sometimes the Magic let their offense dictate their offense. Like if they start to go through a rut on offense, they don't dig out of it. They actually just fall back on their absolute worst habits offensively of just standing around isoing, not going at the right matchups. But how can they attack? What was one of the three best defenses in the NBA this year?

Steve Jones Jr. (25:32)

Well, I mean, I think you look at the way they, they looked at Duncan Robinson, especially Palo Banchero, and he said, please come here repeatedly, let's attack you and let's use that as a matchup. And so I think it's more so. Okay, let's use Palo as a screener, see if we can get Cade in action. See we can get Duncan Robinson in action. I don't know how much of this is going to be a pure movement series for Orlando just because of how they want to two degree control tempo in the half court and try and attack matchups, win matchups and leverage the high confidence of their top four players against Detroit and keep this thing close in the fourth quarter. You gotta deal with us. So I, I'm thinking they'll probably attack matchups, try and get power the ball closest in the block, try and probably establish Franz. So I wouldn't be surprised if. Hey Cade, you're in action. Duncan Robinson, you're in action. Tobias Harris, you might be in action. We're going to try and poke at you guys in a way to where. Okay. Because that first quarter you felt Detroit's energy and effort when they were rotating, protecting drives, getting back out and rotating that second quarter, which wasn't the prettiest. You felt Orlando, you felt Orlando, while not really scoring, still having the confidence of we know we can get a basket. And so it's, that's where it's like it's a mirror series because they both need their defense to allow what they want to do offensively to make sense. But if I'm Orlando, we've got to find pressure points because when Pao has it going, gets to the line, Detroit may send a double. I, I think they, there was one. They didn't want to switch Duncan Robinson and so Tobias stayed on him. Duncan was like, well, I'm going to double. And it opened up a three for dozen Bane.

Zach Lowe (27:00)

So it's like one pass away. And it was actually, I think it was one where Paolo did not have a switch. He just had Tobias Harris on him and they rushed at him. Duncan Robinson doubled, as you said, from Bane. And I was like, why are you like what the worst case scenario is? Paolo Banchero takes an 18 foot fadeaway over the guy that you have assigned to guard Paolo Banchero. Just stay home. Don't. The Desmond Bane 3 is like a gift for them. Chill out on the help. But I agree with you, like Paolo in The playoffs has 17 post touches. That's number one among all players. 1.8 points per possession according to Second Spectrum tracking data out of those plays. And I just like they're going to try to hide Duncan Robinson on Suggs or Anthony Black who needs to do a little bit more in this series or whoever is not Desmond Bain. But a lot of times he's stuck on Bain because Bain's guarding him a lot on the other end on those possessions. You could not let that go to waste. Duncan Robinson is guarding your most dangerous shooter by a country mile. A guy who can catch and shoot off movement. An accomplished screen flare guy. Bring him into the action, have him set a cross screen for Bancaro underneath the rim. Whatever it is. There aren't a lot of places to attack the Pistons. That's one. And you know, maybe just more pick and rolls aimed at Duran because he can be, he can have some hiccups on defense, but these are just like Orlando's just not a good offensive team and it's just going to come down to turnovers, rebounding, free throws, like all those kinds of things. But it will be. I think this is going to be a series, a long series now, and I don't know how much of an attractive chess match it's going to be, but last night was, I thought, a good. The right kind of response from the Pistons on both ends of the floor. Not a spectacular one, although that 30 to three run was like, whoa, that is an avalanche. But, you know, I think we're set up for a fun series. I picked Detroit in five because I just thought they would come out like they were shot out of a cannon, anxious to end the home playoff losing streak. I just didn't know what to make of Orlando. But that Game one performance was eye opening. I would switch my pick now to Detroit in seven. I think it's going to be a long series.

Steve Jones Jr. (29:04)

Oh, seven. Okay.

Zach Lowe (29:06)

I also will. I also will pick. I think we're having a confrontation in Game 3. I think we're having double technicals, a shoving match involving over under 4.4.5 players. Because Isaiah Stewart was doing Isaiah Stewart stuff last night, including challenging every shot at the rim and winning, like, 80% of them. And then Paulo got him. And the game. If. If the game had been closer, I wonder what would have happened, because you could tell Paolo was like, shut. Shut up. I'm. I got you on that one. And Isaiah Stewart was like, I'll bring. I'll be here next time. Like, you want to do it again? I'll be here next time. Like, something's happening in this series pretty soon. All right. You want to move on to the West?

Sean Fennesee (29:50)

Yeah.

Zach Lowe (29:54)

This is probably the game I'm most excited about Friday. Oh, Rockets, Lakers.

Steve Jones Jr. (29:59)

Okay.

Zach Lowe (30:02)

I thought Houston's. I thought IME Odoka's coaching performance in Game two was borderline insane. I just did not understand anything the Rockets were doing on offense. Reed Shepherd, Kevin Durant and Alperin Shengun played four minutes together the entire game. That threesome is your only roadmap to functional NBA offense against a team who is missing its two best players, which should be shouted from the rooftops all the time. The Rockets are struggling against a team missing its two best players, against a team that has had to have Luke Kennard score, like, 30 points a game to win these games. Those three guys playing four minutes together, Reed shepherd coming off the bench and playing 11 minutes, and he didn't play well. He didn't make shots. He was a little, like, a little frazzled himself. I just thought was like a coaching Self sabotage of the level that I have not seen in a long time. Their offense is so bad that there are so many possessions where like nothing happens until there's 14 on the shot clock. And then one thing happens. It doesn't do anything. Like it doesn't switch the matchup in any favorable way for the Rockets and then they act like 14 on the shot clock means we're done. Like we just can't do anything else. And Alper and Shengun or Amen Thompson is like, all right, I guess I'm just going to dribble from 20ft out and pray that something happens and they miss shots or Marcus Smart strips them. I just can't believe the lack of functionality in their offense. A lot of it just comes down to if Reed Shepherd's going to play 11 minutes. They don't have any guards who can run a functional pick and roll. They don't have anybody but Durant to do it. And he had nine turnovers. He's 37 years old or whatever he is. They don't have enough. They play a bunch of lineups with two, even three guys who are complete zeros from three point range, including Shen Goon, who has forgotten how to shoot threes. And so there's just like, even if the Lakers have to send help somewhere and they're junking up the series with switching and doubling Durant every time, they don't care because they can double Durant. Behind him are Clint Capella, Joshua Kogi and Amen Thompson in a traffic jam that the Lakers could navigate. I just think you, I don't understand why. Why is Reed shepherd on the team? Why did they draft him? Their only path to offense is that triangle of players. And to play it four minutes in a game that you didn't necessarily have to win, but no one wants to be down 2 0. It's kind of a crisis. And you couldn't score at all and you had no offense other than, okay, someone just do. We'll do one thing and then someone dribble 50 times and get to the rim. I just thought it was like unconscionably bad.

Steve Jones Jr. (32:51)

No, I hear it. I mean, I think Houston was searching in that game too, throughout the game, lineup wise, trying to find what they need to do. And I think they have to commit offensively to searching. Search.

Zach Lowe (33:03)

Was Reed shepherd playing hide and seek in the locker room? What are they searching for? He's sitting on the bench like, well,

Steve Jones Jr. (33:09)

no, let's think about it, right? You go back to the start of the second Half, they ding Al Prince, Shingoon and pick and roll pretty good. Get DeAndre and rolling. They find some skip passes, they go to switch. They switch and double. And so that's when Houston went small and said, we're going to switch everything. And that's when they really had the lineup where people were like, why are these people playing together? And he may tap the defense button.

Zach Lowe (33:30)

So does he have any other buttons? Is that the only button? Is it like the button that Zach Galifianakis has on between two ferns or it's just one button that you just tap over and over again? Like, it's like. Anyway, I'm so. I just, I just was like watching the game in complete shock.

Steve Jones Jr. (33:47)

Well, well, one, you got to give a lot of credit to the Lakers defense for the timing on these double teams. They're playing great consistently. It's been, it's been incredible. And I think for Houston, tempo has been a concern all year long. As far as getting to your stuff sooner, give yourself a little bit more room for air, get to a second action. And so I think there were pockets in the third quarter where they were able to get to something that resembled flow. And they're going to have to make quick decisions if Kevin Durant's going to get a double to this level to where, okay, it may not be a perfect world, but you got to drive some of these closeouts. It can't always be a three. You got to make some shots, but drive the closeout, get the ball back to Alper and Shingoon. There were moments where, okay, Kevin Durant gets doubled. The timing was excellent by the Lakers, but he advances it to Jabari Smith. Jabari tries to drive, gets it to Shingoon, but now Shingoon is able to get to Kevin Durant and get a roll out of it. Use what the Lakers are doing against them to a degree, because the reason they're switching in doubling is because they don't want Alper and Shingoon rolling and they. So we don't want Kevin Durant to have the space. We don't want Alfred and Shingoon to roll. So we're going to place you in this box. They have to leverage that against them. And so I think using Amin Thompson as a screener, they did that once, I believe, in the, in the third quarter. The problem was LeBron sniffed it out, so it didn't really matter. But hey, can you just use him as someone who can poke at the Lakers switching? I think the, the double edged sword for the Rockets Offense is. You don't have Alper and Shingoon going because the Lakers, especially at game one and game two, said, okay, we're going to push your catches out. We're going to show baseline help. It may be a hard double. What are you going to do about it? Is that going to affect your aggression level? If it does, okay, we're not leaning on that now. We overlean on Kevin Durant, try and use him to screen for Shingon, trying to use him off ball in staggers and pin downs to take 48 seconds, trying to use him in dribble handoffs. But they've got to find a way to find the comfort and use the space to keep pressure on the Lakers defense. Like there was a. There was a set they ran in that. I think it was the fourth quarter. Kevin Durant, pick and roll, got the switch. Marcus Smart couldn't double turn the corner, finished. The problem is like, the Lakers are comfortable and they adjust on the fly and they're willing to, unlike many teams like you put people in the corners, usually the defense stays flat, right? We saw it last year in the playoffs. They'll just come up to the elbow anyways and say, whatever, make this pass. And so now that you have the rhythm of what they've shown you, can you poke at it and make it a little bit untenable?

Zach Lowe (36:14)

I don't know to your point, but they're point. They opened the second half with a functional basketball play, clearly a scripted one. Kevin Durant came off a Joshua Kogi pin down on the left side of the floor. Why is that important? Because Luke Canard is guarding Joshua Kogi, and the Rockets cannot just sit there and let Luke Canard exist in this series without going at him. And they did that way too often. Just let him exist without punishing him. Switch of Luke Canard on Kevin Durant. Great. That's a great accomplishment. That's what you want. Step one, Lakers double. Step two, Kevin Durant passes to Jabari Smith on the right wing. Step three, defense resets. This is the moment on so many Rockets possessions where everything just dies. And you know what happened on this possession? Jabari Smith went right back to Kevin Durant. Sengoon flew up and set a second. A pick and roll for Kevin Durant. And the Lakers were like, oh, we got to defend another thing. And they're moving it fast. And Sengun rolled to the rim. The help was not there. He kicked it to Jabari Smith Jr. In the corner, who missed a wide open 3. Great process. Didn't make the shot. And it's like, why can't we do that every time? And they have a vibe of like. I always remember year one of the LeBron Heat when they were trying to figure out how to use Wade and LeBron and like first world problems. The delta between the stuff they would run out of timeouts and the stuff they would run in, the flow of the game was so wide. Like they would run this sophisticated five man stuff out of timeouts and they do it once and then the game would be going on and it was like they didn't know how to do any of that in the flow of the game. The Rockets have that vibe to them and I'm like, can we just bottle that? They had another possession where after a Lakers make, it was in the first quarter. I think Amen Thompson ran, like, ran sprint, dribbled up the floor. I think a Kogi set a screen for him with 20 on the shot clock. I paused it. It was like 20 on the shot clock after a make. The Lakers were not back on defense. They were not set. They had nobody back at the rim. Thompson got ahead of steam against Kennard and laid the ball in. It's like, oh, we're allowed to do that. We're allowed to like do something with 20 on the shot clock and go fast. Like, yeah, do more. That's the only way you're going to score. Because the Lakers, to give them credit, super high IQ team, they have the Rockets on their heels because they don't know what to expect defensively and offensively. Look, they're only scoring 113 points per hundred possessions, which is like average to below average. But given the talent on the floor, they are dictating the terms of the series offensively and getting pretty good shots across the board. I mentioned Paolo's post numbers. He's 17 post touches. LeBron is number two with 16 post touches. And they're getting 1.4 points per possession according to second spectrum out of those post touches. And Akogi is the only guy on the team who can kind of not get bulldozed, even if it's like a slow motion bulldoze. Like just like six dribbles. If you give him six dribbles, Amen. Thompson is going to be under the basket. Tar Eason is going to be under the basket. And between that and canard, and I have to give JJ credit, like, people don't think the Lakers are a good shooting team. They actually have a pretty decent amount of shooting now and they're Getting stuff out of smart Ayton pick and rolls and LeBron 8 and pick and rolls. And the reason they're getting stuff out of it is on the strong side is Rui Hachimura and he's a good shooter. And on the weak side is Luke Kennard setting some screening action with whoever is the fifth guy on the floor. That's just meant to distract the defense. Cause it's Luke Canard and it's working. They're just totally glued up on both of those guys. And Aiden's getting dunks at the rim. Like the Lakers are running good stuff in this series, but this all comes down to if Houston just can't score at all, they're not going to win this series. And if they lose this series in dispiriting fashion, I think the off season ramifications could be massive. But we can come back to that. Any, any final thoughts on what you're seeing? X's and O's wise here was answer one question.

Steve Jones Jr. (40:16)

Because they tried to put Reed shepherd one pass away from Kevin Durant a few times in that game, do you think Houston can have enough success to make the Lakers dial it back? Is that.

Zach Lowe (40:27)

Dial what back? The doubles? No, because the veracity of the doubles. I don't, I don't think so. Because I just think the Lakers are going to survive with junk defenses anyway. Like whatever it is, they're just going to keep just randomly switching doubling. I don't think so. But to your point about Reed shepherd, it's like, like you run a Shepherd Changun pick and roll and you have a guy who knows how to compromise the defense. Kevin Durant on the weak side. Now you've got something. Durant and Reed shepherd two man game together with Shingoon lurking over here. Now you've got something. It's going to be threatening. I just don't know if the Lakers have any other response other than just continue to junk it up a little bit. To their credit, they're doing it quite well. I just, I'm so frustrated because I understand Van Vliet is hurt. Dorian Finney Smith has been a zero. Steven Adams is the whole ingredient in your offense. That's gone by the way. I should have led with this. The rockets are scoring 105 points per 100 possessions which would have been dead last by a mile in the regular season. To have that number while rebounding 43% of your own misses like that's like a record setting level of offensive rebounding. And your points per possession are still so bad is almost so bizarre that it's. It's an accomplishment of some kind. But I'm just frustrated because if I. Let's say they lose in six or five or something, that's not like, we made a real strong comeback and got it to Game seven and whatever. What have I learned about my team? If I get to the off season and the rotation is the way that it's been in the first two games? The whole blessing in disguise, which I never bought for a second about Fred Van Vliet getting injured, was, well, I'm going to learn a lot about what I have in Reed shepherd and Amen Thompson, and that's going to inform how I build my team going forward. Right now, I don't feel like. Like Ahmed Thompson is not a point guard right now, and that's fine. He's still very good for what he is. I haven't learned enough about Reed Shepherd. I haven't learned anything useful about my team. And I've got to go into this off season facing massive decisions about my coach, about Giannis, about whatever. And if I'm a team like Miami and this all goes haywire for the Rockets, I might just poke around like, hey, you guys still want Durant? Cause, like, we can. We might be able to, like, the. The ramifications are huge, but I just feel like I'm frustrated because I don't have as much information about my players as I should based on the roster.

Shay Serrano (42:54)

Okay,

Zach Lowe (42:57)

that's it.

Steve Jones Jr. (42:57)

Okay, so, so, so, so, so, so Rockets and Sixes.

Zach Lowe (43:01)

I don't know. I picked Rock. I mean, I just. I can't believe I picked the Rockets to win the series. Obviously, Durant missing Game one was a little bit of a wild card. I just can't believe how bad they've looked against the Lakers team with no Luca and no Reeves. It's just. It's shocking to me. All right, six or Celtics? Let's wrap with that Sixers awesome win in Game two in Boston. Vijay and Tyrese Maxey, who I will not call them by their horrible nickname, were outstanding. A lot of it is just in Game 1, they shot 4 of 23 on threes. The Sixers did. In Game 2, they shot 19 of 39 while the Celtics shot 13, a 50. But you were on this right from the beginning in Game one, where people were shitting on Nick Nurse. People were shitting on the Sixers for looking overmatched and ill prepared. And I was watching it, and I was like, I think they've actually got some good Ideas. And I said this, I think, with Bill on Sunday. I think they've actually got some good ideas on how to exploit Boston's tendencies on defense. And those good ideas didn't work in game one. They worked in game two. I'm wondering if you can kind of explain in layman's terms what Philly is doing and how they are leveraging Boston's habits on defense against them.

Steve Jones Jr. (44:14)

Well, Boston was lights out in game one as far as dictating terms to Philadelphia and saying, hey, we're going to keep our big back. This is a team that's really good at collapsing and protecting the paint. One of my favorite things to watch, if you're trying to drive, it's Boston. You're going to see jerseys just emerge and bodies in your way. But basically, Tyrese Maxey, here are your options. You will have space. We're going to trust our defense to navigate this screen. So if you want to take a pull up, it's going to be contested. If you want to turn the corner into the space that you see, there will be a wing or a guard that meets you somewhere near around the paint to protect the big so they can stay back. And then you have to make the decision on if you would like to kick the ball and they didn't make the shots in game one. And then if you would like to actually fully turn the corner if you're able to, at some point there will be other bodies around you. So we're just going to dictate. These are the shots you get. Paint touch is going to be tough. You're not going to get pull ups. It worked really well. They were very active in game one. Game two, Philadelphia was like, well, what if we just make these shots and tyres. Maxi was just, I'm going to make very quick decisions. So. Okay, that's fantastic. Let's make sure we force this over. So the navigation is not as strong. Let me get to a pull up and this is great. The big is back. If I'm going to drive one on one and you want to show this elbow help, I'm going to get off of it real quick and we're going to play out of it. If I'm Paul George, give me Peyton Pritchard, Quentin Grimes, come one pass away, you want to help kick like they were just very decisive and so BJ Edgum saying, oh, that's right, you are giving me space. Do you not know? I like to snake, pick and rolls and get to a mid range pull up or from three like they Understood what shots were available, and they knocked them down. And I think for Boston, the balancing act was okay. As a defense, you want to dictate terms, but sometimes the other team agrees. So now, do we lean in on what we know has been successful? Do we lean in on still trying to protect the paint? How do we balance that? I. I think they stuck with their guns because the Sixers have the formula as far as, okay, let's try and get Boston bought down late in the shot clock. Let's be active, and let's make shots and see what happens. They just kept doing that, and Boston didn't necessarily have the offense or the defensive answers to kind of push them back into place.

Zach Lowe (46:21)

Yeah, to. To be clear, if Embiid does not play this series, I still expect Boston to win in a short series. Like, nothing that happened in game two changes my prognosis for the series. I just want to give the Sixers credit because I think they position the puzzle pieces or the chess pieces in the right way. So just imagine this, like, it's very simple. They know how Boston is going to play defense aggressively, as you said. So let's just imagine Tyrese, Maxey, and Bona run a pick and roll. They don't do it in the middle of the floor. They do it from the right side of the floor. Let's just say the right wing. And Tyrese is going to go left, so he's going into the middle of the floor. The next shooter in line is not at the top of the arc. He's on the opposite wing. There is far apart. Tyrese and the next shooter are as far apart as basically possible. For two guys to be sharing that space at the top of the arc, everyone else is in the corners on the dunker spot, whatever. And the point of that is when Tyrese gets into the middle, the Sixers know that guy guarding, let's say Grimes or Edgecomb on the other wing is coming in to the nail. He's going to meet me at the nail. And what Boston likes to do is have that defender switch onto Tyrese Maxey and have Tyrese Maxey's defender zoom over and peel onto the shooter, the Grimes Edgecomb spot on the other side of the floor. And what Philly is doing is saying, we're going to make that switch impossible. It's too much distance for you to cover, and so you're not going to be able to make that switch, and you're going to have choices. You either don't help, and Tyrese is going to get into the lane or you help like that, and we're going to pass it to Vijay Edgecombe before you can even come close to executing that switch. He's going to get an open three or he's going to have a wide open alley to attack the rim. They also baited Boston. Sometimes they'll switch it up and they'll have a shooter in the strong side corner and a guy in the dunker spot in that corner. And Tyrese will go toward that corner, knowing that Boston likes to do that same thing. Have that corner defender zoom over and take him, and then have Tyrese's defender peel out and take the corner guy. And they're getting ahead of that switch and getting open threes out of it. And Missoula talked after the game about, well, I think we overhelped a little bit, and I think you'll see Boston dial some of that stuff back, particularly from the corners, which we're just not going to make that switch from the strong side corner. And in the fourth quarter, when Philly won the game, Boston dialed back its coverages a little bit and basically said to Tyrese Maxey, we're not sending that third guy at you. We're going to play you two on two. And Tyrese Max was like, cool, here's some, like, pull up threes in your face. And then, then they did the next thing, which was, okay, he's making pull of threes. We're going to bring Keita up much higher to the level of the screen. And Tyrese Maxu is like, sweet, I'm just going to blow by Nemi is Keda and get a layup. And so you saw scheme by scheme by scheme, Tyrese Maxey with some smart positioning from the Sixers, beat the counter to the counter, to the counter. And the Celtics, I think, are going to mix it up, but probably dial back to help a little bit and basically say, we don't think you can do that. One, two, three more games in this series. Also, we didn't play a very good offensive game ourselves. We've got some. Some buttons we can push. But I, I thought Philly did a nice job arranging the board to. To bait the Celtics into doing things the Celtics like to do and use it against them.

Steve Jones Jr. (49:46)

That's the fun of the playoffs. You know, one team is trying to take something away. We respond and, and. And poke right back at it. And so I think also just working to clear wings too, and just be like, actually, you know, there's actually not someone you can show help to. We're going to just have this space and work with it. But I. I like seeing Boston establish himself defensively and now have to find a way to dial back and just kind of contain Philadelphia. And to your point, I think early, they'll just dial it down a little bit and say, make shots. We're not going to hand you shots. Make plays. And now if we need to, we can up the activity, we can up the rotations. But I like seeing a seed respond to what a team has done and saying, actually, we can make this something that's difficult for you to deal with.

Zach Lowe (50:28)

Yeah, I thought game two is really fun just because Philly made it a series and Philly. Philly is stressed Boston a little bit in a way that I wasn't sure they're going to be able to do. They're like, oh, actually, no, we can hit you a little bit in. In one of your weak spot. Not weak spots, but we can. We can. We know what you're going to do. We'll land a body blow here and there and see how you respond. I didn't think the Celtics offense had a good game. I thought they were a little sticky. I love when Boston doesn't just give Tatum or Brown the ball, but gets them a head start, like run them off a down screen and they catch it on the move on the wing or they come off a pin down and catch it on the move with an advantage. I didn't see enough of that. I don't think they hunted Maxi aggressively enough, especially when he's on Sam Houser. Like, that's your best shooter, man. Put him in more stuff. I just thought they played a little bit of a blah game other than. And obviously missed. They shot horribly from three. I just didn't think they ran kind of enough of their best stuff. And I was also surprised. I don't know if you were. I thought Shireman did not play enough. I thought Jordan, Walsh and Shireman, but particularly Shireman because of the way he keeps the ball moving on offense. I thought he would have played more. I was a little surprised. He didn't play very much. 11 minutes.

Steve Jones Jr. (51:35)

I think he's an important piece. I think it gets interesting for Joe Missoula as far as trying to figure out which one of these Energizer Bunnies, as I like to call them, do I place in some of these series? At times I think Charman could be the most effective because of his shooting. I love when they set a flare for Jason Tatum when he's trailing a play and Let him get downhill and run pick and roll. Did this feel like a Boston Celtics stopped flowing and fell into bad habits type game, or did it feel like we aren't necessarily creating the shots we need to type?

Zach Lowe (52:06)

No, it was not quite fall into bad habits. It was just like I've seen the Celtics play a offensive games with Tatum and Brown back and press a lot of the right buttons and press multiple of them on the same possession. This felt like a B minus, C plus, like just a little dull, a little predictable in a way that I thought they were. I mean, every team has these games every once in a while. I just think they're. They're going to be fine. I would expect them to. I picked them in five. I'd probably just even stick by that pick. I think they can win both games in Philly and, you know, but at least we have like a little bit of a series. But yeah, it's an interesting. There they play, the Celtics play a very interesting style on both ends of the floor and very much. It's very much ingrained within them that the two ends of the floor are tied together. And what we do on one end very much affects what we do on the other end. And people think of that a lot as like, well, that's why they have a low turnover style or that's why they don't take a ton of shots at the rim because they don't want to compromise their defense. I think a lot of what they do on, like, I think one of the reasons they like this aggressive help and switching defense, I think I've never asked Missoula about it. I think one of the reasons they like it is it messes up all the matchups so that if they get a stop all of a sudden because Jason Tatum has flashed from here to here and switched onto that guy, you've got the wrong guy close to Jason Tatum or you've got the wrong guy close to Peyton Pritchard. Like, everything is scrambled up and all of a sudden they've gotten. They're running the other way with an advantage. I'd like to actually talk to him about that because they're. If they're just a very interesting team on both ends of the floor.

Steve Jones Jr. (53:39)

No, I think that's a good point. That's a good point. And also I think, you know, their ability to take care of the ball, get back in transition. It's a tough matchup for Philly overall, but. Well, now you gotta be thinking about the cross matching. That's an interesting concept because that's not an easy thing to kind of deal with. And I think we have Boston hasn't even really tapped into, hey, we're going to put a wing on a big and just switch things. They just kind of kept it vanilla to a degree as far as we're going to drop. So it's like what do they have up their sleeve that that's true.

Zach Lowe (54:10)

Could you put just, do we, are we that worried about Adam Bona? Why don't we put some Hauser on him or somebody on him. And I know Bill has talked about playing Tatum at center. I, I personally think that Bill's a little too into that lineup for my taste, but they can certainly do it. But even just inverting the matchups, it risks some offensive rebounding. Like Drummond is a, is a legitimately all time great offensive rebounder. But I just look, all I'm asking for in these kinds of series where there's a big heavy favorite and the best player on the other team or the second best player I guess is injured, it's like just get me to a Game four where it's exciting and we're there. No matter what happens in Game 3, especially if Philly wins Game 3, then Game 4 is like, Whoa boy, exciting. But even if Boston resets to norms in Game three, Game four is kind of fun. That's all I want. Steve zone Steve Jones Jr. One half of the spot with Nikais Duncan if you want to know what happened in the game, not whose legacy is on the line or who choked or whatever, the Dunker spot is a great podcast for you. And Steve and Nikais, their Twitter, they're highlighting plays, they're doing the yeoman's work for you during the game to be like, oh, that's why they did that thing. Thank you for your time and your insights, sir.

Steve Jones Jr. (55:17)

Thank you.

Zach Lowe (55:20)

The Zach Lowe show is brought to you by FanDuel NBA fans, this is your reminder to check in daily because every day during the playoffs, FanDuel is serving up a happy hour. We're talking special drops you won't want to miss, from profit boosts to bonus bets and more. And the best part, it's every single day, including today. Check for a new reward every single day of the NBA playoffs. And don't miss your shot to get a little extra out of the action. Head to FanDuel.com low to get started. 21 or over in select states or 18 and over in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Opt in. Required rewards are non withdrawable. Restrictions apply including bonus and token expiration leg requirements and max wager amount gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut. This episode is brought to you by Men's Wearhouse. So you've looked at all the data, you've looked at your lineup and yep, you need to freshen up your wardrobe. So check out Men's Wearhouse. They've got you covered for every occasion with a huge variety of clothing and styles from tailored clothing like suits, sports coats, dress shirts, tuxes for more formal events to casual clothing like polo shirts, shorts and jeans for everyday wear. The Men's Wearhouse experts can help you find the right look while their on site tailors guarantee your clothes have the right fit for your body. Men's wearhouse has over 600 locations nationwide. They are here and nearby when you're ready to love the way you look. All right, we have another series to Discuss. Spurs, Blazers, 1 1. And look who it is, my old friend.

Shay Serrano (56:53)

Who it is.

Zach Lowe (56:54)

Chase Serrano. What is going on?

Shay Serrano (56:57)

What's up, Zachariah? How the hell have you been?

Zach Lowe (57:00)

I've been all right multiple times. So many times I lost count. Best selling New York Times bestselling author Shay Serrano. Five times.

Shay Serrano (57:07)

I looked at five of them. Things like Timmy. Like Timmy.

Zach Lowe (57:12)

Same number of rings as your favorite team. It the series took an unfortunate turn. We're recording this Thursday morning. We won't know about Victor Wembanyama's availability for game three until I'm guessing, you know, probably pretty close to the game or day of game. So, you know, what can you do? The fall was a little scary and I this, this Blazers team, Shay is frisky. They defend really hard. Scoot Henderson was unbelievable in game two. And I would say if Wemby doesn't play game three, I think that's a toss up game and I would pick the spurs to win the series even if it goes 2:1 Portland. But are you mentally prepared for like, we're down 2:1 in game four in Portland, Wemby comes back like, are you ready to feel the or are you going to be just like, as long as Wemby's back for Game 4, you're going to be so confident that it's fine?

Shay Serrano (58:01)

No, I'm terrified. I was terrified going into the series. Going into the series, I had convinced myself that Scoot Henderson was the new Allen Iverson and that Denny was Dennis Rodman and Michael Jordan mixed together. Like that's the Level of nervousness. I was already going in and then Wimby goes down and now I'm in a full on panic. We could be up 3, 0 and up 45 points in the fourth quarter. I'm still, I'm terrified. This is why the playoffs are fun.

Zach Lowe (58:32)

You know, the two guys you mentioned were the lead stories, I think of game two and Scoot. You know, Scoot came back about two weeks into his return this year. I did a let's revisit the Brandon Miller Scoot Henderson segment because I was like, I think Scoot actually looks pretty good considering he just came back.

Shay Serrano (58:48)

He looks real good.

Zach Lowe (58:49)

His pull up shooting the other day was outrageous. He had no assists. I think that's actually like indicative of. With Denny being the point guard basically and with Jrue Holiday out there as like another point guard, he's found this comfort zone where he actually doesn't have to do too much. The game is a little simpler for him. You don't see a lot of wild turnovers from him. He almost is able to play a more streamlined game that helped him. Denny is just a monster getting to the rim. He's going after Fox on defense. I didn't love the way Fox closed the game for the spurs once Wemby got hurt. That was a little rough, but what can one do? So we got a series and look, I'm pretty confident the spurs win as long as Wembanyama misses only one game. Shams reported last night, I don't know if you saw this, that he did some conditioning work yesterday, which means he's starting to clear the first hurdles of the concussion protocol, but, you know, we'll see you buckle up.

Shay Serrano (59:42)

Well, we were, we were two and one against him in the season series without Wimby. He didn't play in any of the games. Like so. So like, if I want to try to calm myself down, I can say, we, we can beat these guys. We should, we should beat these guys. But yeah, watching everything fall apart at the end of game two, we're up 13, 14 points with eight minutes left and you're like, all right, we're good. We're going to win this game. Wimby can sit out the next two, just get totally fine, come back to San Antonio, maybe up 3 1, maybe tied 2 2, we can beat them. But yeah, you know what's crazy? I came for game two. I didn't start watching the game. I got home from. I'm coaching a high school basketball team for spring ball. And so we had a game that night. And I got home during halftime, turned the game on, got my little snacks ready, and then the third quarter started, and I was like, why is. Why is Luke in there? What the. Like, I had no idea. I turned my phone on. Oh, my God. Please, God, no. And then I saw the. I saw that. I'm a wreck right now, Zach.

Zach Lowe (60:47)

It was scary. And look, it was also shaping up to be a really interesting battle between the Blazers and Wemby on both ends of the floor. So you know this. You watch every spurs game. Some teams guard Wemby with their centers, some teams guard them with the wing and try to hide their center on Steph Castle or Harrison Barnes or Keldon Johnson, who's ever available. And the Blazers went right to that. Well, immediately, like, Kamara, you're just going to get up under Wemby, we're going to put Clingan over here on Castle, dare Castle to shoot. Castle's like, oh, cool, I'll just. I mean, he's not shooting efficiently, but he's had some threes. He has had some bulldozer drives into who's ever in front of him. And it was just. Wemby seen that before. They were ready for it. He knows all the counters to it from everything. From run him off pin downs from Devin Vassell. Run, have him set pin downs for the best shooter on the team, Devin Vassell. Have whoever the center is guarding set pin downs for Wemby to get that switch, get offensive rebounds, post up all of it. They know how to do it. And it was so interesting to watch him figure it out again in real time under playoff physicality. Then Drew Holiday took the assignment, and Drew's, like, all about it. This is like the best thing that's ever happened to Drew Holiday. I get to guard this guy and just be Drew Holiday up under him, being annoying. And on defense. Before he went out, did you get a chance to go back and watch the first half?

Shay Serrano (62:00)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Zach Lowe (62:02)

So I'm looking at. I'm look watching the first half, and I'm like, man, they're. They're putting Wemby in a lot of pick and rolls. Like, they're having more than usual. It felt like to me, like they're bringing him in to the action because it's this existential Wemby debate of, like, do we want to have him away from the ball where he's just this roving menace with a million foot wingspan, or do we want to bring him into the action and try to loosen up the Other parts of the floor. And I looked it up on the tracking data, and it was on track to be the second most picks any team had put Wemby on in a game this year before he went out. Like, if you do it per possession, it's the second or third highest. So they were trying something new. And now, now we just get to wait for. For game three, which is tomorrow. What's your. What are you going to. Are you going to. Who's going to watch it with you? What's your good. What's going to be your routine?

Shay Serrano (62:51)

I'm going to watch it at the house. It's going to be probably one of the twins will be home, if I had to guess, and he'll probably wander down every so often. My youngest son will be there, but mainly during the playoffs. Everybody is like, leave dad alone when the game. When the game is on. You know what I mean? So it's me and the dog always watching the game together because she doesn't interrupt too much. But that's my. That's my thing. I'm just gonna be sitting locked in. In the living room.

Zach Lowe (63:20)

What I really wanted to talk to you about was your game one experience. So you've written a lot over the years about the, at the ringer, about going to games with your dad, going to spurs games with your dad when you were a kid, and watching your dad at those games, watching how he behaved, what those games meant to you as a kid. And then game one of their first playoff game in seven years, you and your dad got to sit courtside near the spurs bench.

Shay Serrano (63:48)

Yeah, Buddy.

Zach Lowe (63:49)

And I, I just wonder, sort of. I mean, just what, what. What did that mean for you to be able to give him or share with him, not only a Spurs game, but from that, that vantage point? And, like, did you guys talk? How was the whole thing?

Shay Serrano (64:05)

The whole thing was really, really cool and a little more emotional than I was anticipating. I knew we were gonna have a good time. We always have a good time at a game. Doesn't matter where we're sitting. But there was a point where we literally, in, like, the Alamo Dome, sat in the very last row of the. Like, that stadium holds 70,000 people or whatever. We were in the top, top. Like, we went all the way from the very, very top now to the, to the very, very bottom. But it was just so. It was just so neat. We were, as you mentioned, caddy corner to the spurs bench.

Steve Jones Jr. (64:37)

So.

Shay Serrano (64:38)

So all the guys are right there. We're right there during the, the lineups but also Timmy was. Timmy's my favorite basketball player of all time. Reggie Miller was commentating the game. He's my second favorite basketball player of all time. David was there. Pop was there. Gervin was there. Sean Elliott was there. Like, everywhere you looked, there was like, oh, my God, I love this guy. This person means a ton to me. My dad at the games is a very mellow. Sit there, drink his little coke, clap his hand like a stoic old Mexican man, and I'm like, just standing. I'm standing on my feet for 47 of the 48 minutes, just screaming out on the court, but it'd be screaming and lean down, high five. Like you're just doing all the things you do with your. With your dad. But I mean, you know this. Cause you're a parent, you're a husband. You spend so much of your life as the husband, as the father, and very rarely do you get the chance to be like, oh, I'm the kid again, in a situation and going to the game, sitting there with him. He drove us there. I didn't have to worry about it. Like, he did the parking, handled all of that. Just, you know, for two and a half hours, it felt like I was 14 years old again, just watching these superheroes play basketball, sitting next to this superhero who raised me. It was a really beautiful experience.

Zach Lowe (65:55)

Had he ever sat that close at a game? And was there any part of him that felt uncomfortable sitting that close at a game?

Shay Serrano (66:03)

He had never sat that close. I had never sat that close. He was 100% comfortable. He's like, we should do this every game. Every single game. These should be our seats. I think you're right, dad.

Zach Lowe (66:15)

So I took my dad. So. So before we get there, you. One of the pieces you wrote for the Ringer about watching games with your dad, you wrote about. What did you write about? You wrote about him. Like, I can't remember exactly what it was. I should remember it. But something like little things that he would say to you during the game. I don't even remember if it was about the game or about, like. But there was one or two things that, like, stuck with you that are. I mean, the memory that I have is you would be driving home and you'd pass a clock tower.

Shay Serrano (66:45)

Yeah.

Zach Lowe (66:45)

Or. And you would be just amazed that. That you were awake at 10:30pm as a little kid. But there was a couple of. I can't remember. There are a couple remarks your dad, like, said to you that just, like, embedded themselves in your brain, maybe about Even the Spurs or sports or something. Do you remember what those were?

Shay Serrano (67:01)

Yeah, I remember. I remember all of them. I've mentioned when we were driving home from this game, the, the clock here or you're referencing is this like a digital. Like just one of those ones that's lit up in lights and it's at the security service bank off of Highway 90 in San Antonio. We'd have to drive past that to get home. And I told him when we were driving home, we live on the other side of town now. But I was like, dad, let's drive past security service so I could see the clock. I know exactly what you're talking about. But so the one that stands out the most to me is we were at a Spurs game. This is Hemisphere Arena. So we're in SBC center now, or ATT center. Whatever you want to call was Alamodome was before that, and then before that was the Hemisphere Arena. This is pre David Robinson. Like that's when I started going to the games. But we were at a game, the spurs are getting blown out. At the time, he was a bus driver for via, which is the Metro bus system here in San Antonio. And they would just give tickets away because nobody wanted to go to the spurs game because they were so terrible. So that's how we started going to the games. We were at a game, we're sitting up way high, high in the seats watching. And I don't remember who the players were, I don't remember what the teams were, but I know we were on offense. The ball got knocked back to the other side of the court. One of the spurs players was running after it like as fast as he could, trying to catch it before it went out of bounds. And then he just dove like full body dove right around the free throw line trying to catch the ball before it rolled out of bounds. And he dives the ball, rolls out of bounds, he doesn't get it. And everybody just starts clapping and cheering. And I didn't understand he didn't do what he wanted to do. What's going on, dad? Why are they. They cheering for this guy who didn't accomplish a thing. And then he very. And like that, very old. I guess at the time. He was a young dad, but in that very dad way. He didn't even look at me. He just said, because he tried, son. And I was like, it just stuck with me forever. And I was like, oh, you just gotta try. All you gotta do is try. If you try great. That's it. That's all you, that's all you can control. That one is that will be in my head forever.

Zach Lowe (69:05)

It's funny what you remember from these things. So baseball is my dad's sport. And the first game I ever went to was a Mets Pirates game in Pittsburgh because my mom's family's from Pittsburgh. And I, of course, loved baseball. I didn't have a team at that point, but the Mets were the local team for me growing up. And I just. And I don't remember anything. I remember Three Rivers stadium, ugly stadium, AstroTurf, both teams are pretty good. It was like the mid-80s. The only thing I remember was Mookie Wilson led off for the Mets, top of the first. And they show all the stats on the screen. I'm six or seven years old. I don't really know, like, what these numbers mean. And he's batting over.300. And my dad just says to me, just, I must have asked, like, what does all that mean? And he just said, anything over.300 is good. Like just that. And that's all. He's not going to explain, like, the ratio and how walks factor in and whatever. I just. But I remember vividly, like, Mookie Wilson's hitting over.300 and over.300 is good. And all these 40 plus years later, that's stuck in my head. And then I asked about your dad being comfortable or uncomfortable because last year I took my dad to a Mets Dodgers game at Citi Field. I took my dad, my wife and my daughter. I had won these tickets at a silent auction, like, right behind home plate. And so you get like the VIP entry through the Delta Club and all this. And like ohtani's right there, 10ft in front of us in the on deck circle. And they're, you know, the Delta Club, all the free food you can eat. They're bringing my daughter ice cream bars and all this. My dad grew up on like a farm in New Hampshire, and he was wildly uncomfortable. He was like, I don't think this is how people should watch baseball games like this. He would have rather have gone into the upper deck. And he's like, I'm not. I'm like, I'm not sure I'm going to bring you to this again. It was just so funny to watch him see it from that vantage point.

Shay Serrano (70:54)

Yeah, it's really. Anytime your dad or any parent is like, out of. Out of where they're supposed to be or where they feel they're supposed to be, it's the most adorable thing. I do wonder with my own Sons who, when they were born in Houston, we were living in Houston at the time. So we would go to two basketball games every year because the spurs would come to town. So we would just go watch. Whenever the spurs and Rockets would play, we would go to that. And I think a memory that I always have of them is we went to the spurs game. The game starts, Houston goes up like 6, 0 at the start of the game. And it's whatever, you're watching the game. And then I look and one of the twins is crying and I'm like, son, what's wrong? And he just said, you said we were good. We're not any good. He thought the game was over. We're down by six points. I do wonder what our kids are gonna. Is she gonna remember the ice cream bars at the game with her dad? What's her thing?

Zach Lowe (71:52)

She talks about the ice cream bars constantly. Every time we watch a game on television, she's like, remember how they brought those ice cream bars to our seats and we didn't even have to pay for them? I'm like, yes. She talks about. She fell in love with Francisco Lindor at that game. So she talks about him constantly. She's. She's into it. And I actually wanted to. You talked about a multi generational thing. And one of the. From your generation to your kids, you. You talked about how proud you were when your kids started to actually care about the game and pay attention to the game and not want to go play on the, you know, the little, like, play areas that they have for kids during the game. And I've gone through similar things both with the Mets and when we were in Toronto for the holidays. My wife's family lives in Toronto. My wife's older sister is a season ticket holder with the Raptors. And we bought two extra tickets for my daughter and her cousin, who's about her same age, and they got to sit in their own seats, like away from the adults. I was in the press section and it was like, raptors, Nuggets. My daughter doesn't care about the Raptors. And I could see them from where I was sitting. And I was watching them to see, like, are they gonna just be goofing around or not paying attention? And they were super into the game. And the game ends with Nuggets up by three. Brandon Ingram hits like an almost half court shot to tie the game. And everyone's going crazy and send it into overtime, except the refs ruled that the shot is a little bit late. And so we reconvene after the game. And I'm like, did you guys have fun? And I'm expecting to be like, it was so funny how the Jumbotron, the Raptor mascot, did this thing. And my daughter was like, we thought that shot was good. We thought we were going to overtime. Like, it was gonna go to overtime. Did they review it? Like, was that the right call? Like that? That is. So you've had similar experiences, right, where, like, now they care.

Shay Serrano (73:37)

Yeah. My, my. Maybe my favorite one of once they really started being, like, into the game was, was this is again in Houston. We've gone to a bunch of games here in San Antonio, but the Houston ones, they were so much younger, you know, six, seven, eight, nine years old, whatever. And we were at one Houston spurs game, and this is when lamarcus was on the team, and it was close game, close game. And then the spurs pull away at the end, like in the last minute or so, they go up by 6 or 7. The people around us, we're sitting in the. It's in Houston. We've got our spurs gear on. We're in the middle of enemy territory, and everybody's being cool. Like, we're all talking trash with each other. Nobody's being disrespectful, right? Cause it's kids. Everybody's chill. But the game's going. We go up, it's clear we're gonna win. And they start getting up to leave. And so I just start telling everybody, have a safe drive home. Like that, doing that sort of thing. And then the twins started doing it too. They were like, can we? Can we? And I said, yeah, yeah, yeah, you can. Because they knew, they understood what was going on at that point. And they're just, be safe. Have a safe drive home. Like, I don't know. Them little things like that are so much fun, man.

Zach Lowe (74:45)

You also talked about. And I wonder if you've actually talked about this directly with your dad. You wrote about how you must. You thought your dad must have felt a certain responsibility and hope that the spurs would be good because he had foisted spurs fandom on you. And now you obviously have to feel that with your kids. But have you ever talked about that with your dad? Did he actually. Because I have a story about this, too, but just because I can very much relate to this, I'm inheriting this fandom kind of not by choice, and I hope it works out.

Shay Serrano (75:22)

We talked about it a little after. When they won their first title in 99, was the first time that we had any sort of. Him I'm so glad that they won. I'm so glad that you got to experience this, because I never did. And I was a little nervous that you were gonna be 50 years old and never have this feeling. So we talked briefly about it. But he's never been. I mean, if you know any old Mexican dudes, they just don't say anything that's not about like how to change the oil on your car or whatever, you know what I mean? But what's your thing?

Zach Lowe (75:57)

So my dad is from New Hampshire, as I mentioned. So he's a Boston fan through and through, a huge Red Sox fan. And so when I was a little kid, I started to like baseball. Baseball was the game in the 80s, right? And I wanted to. I was gonna just be a Red Sox fan. Cause that's what you do. You take your dad's fandom. And he actually took me aside when I was like 6, 7 years old and was basically like, I can't do that to you. It's just like, it's just too. I cannot voice that on you. I think you should pick a National League team. You can't. He's like, you can't. There's no. You're not allowed to pick the Yankees. Like you. It was explicit, like, you cannot be a Yankees fan. And he was like, the National League team is the Mets. They're pretty good. Your mom is from Pittsburgh. So the Pirates are pretty good. They're a National League team. How about one of those two teams? Then we went to that game and we decided whoever wins that game is going to be my favorite team.

Shay Serrano (76:48)

They played for it. They played for your heart. Thank God they love the basketball view.

Zach Lowe (76:51)

Thank God the Mets won. And then 86 became a very awkward moment in our household because I was a crazy, die hard Mets fan. Like Daryl Strawberry was my favorite player. And it obviously ends in excruciating heartbreak for my dad. But now my daughter is a Mets fan because of me. And I don't know if you're following baseball. They just snapped a 12 game losing streak last night and are like a clown show and getting mocked all over the world. Like the New Yorker mocked them, the New York Times wrote a story mocking them. And just like sad sack Mets. And I'm like, what have, what have I wrought now? And she's too young to really care, but I'm like, have I done that? Have I done the thing my dad didn't do to me, to my daughter? I'm concerned about it.

Shay Serrano (77:34)

The Mets are one of two baseball teams That I know about, but only because I follow Sean Finesse. So I just catch all of the Mets. Like, I found myself the other day reading Mets Fix, like a Mets themed newsletter.

Zach Lowe (77:48)

I subscribe to Mets Fix.

Shay Serrano (77:49)

Yeah, that's so. Yeah, I know about them and I know about the Dodgers because my buddy Peter Marietta is like a huge, huge Dodgers fan. But those are the only two teams. I don't know anything else.

Zach Lowe (78:00)

By the way, another thing, speaking of 99, that I could really relate to is that you wrote about the spurs, is they win the title. And you remember your dad running out to Dakar at the time. Just describe. Just describe.

Shay Serrano (78:15)

Yeah, the spurs ended up winning the championship. And for whatever reason, he just ran outside and started honking the horn in his truck. Just. And everybody in the neighborhood was doing it. When we won game one, driving out of there, people were honking. It's like a thing in San Antonio, right? And, yeah, I just would never. I never will forget the sound of the neighborhood. Just sort of. You realize everybody's watching the game. You're at the home, you're watching it with your family, whatever, Game five. And just hearing all over the place and him running out to participate in this. Seeing your dad be excited about something is one of the strangest things. The first time it happens. You know what I mean? He ran. He didn't walk. He ran out of the house. He didn't hug us. He didn't. We did it. He just ran out of the house in the car. It was incredible.

Zach Lowe (79:10)

My dad quietly and literally silently wept and just silently wiped away tears. When the Red Sox finally won the World Series in 2004, that was the extent of it. But the Hawking I could really relate to because I don't care about football at all. Like, not at all. One of the Giants, Patriots, Super Bowls that the Giants won recently. I mean, in the last 15 years. Recently I was in New York City and watching it at a friend's house. And then my wife and I were walking back to our apartment and the streets were just over. Like, every bar was overflowing with people going crazy. Honks, the horns were honking and all this. And I didn't care about. I was like, this is so cool. Like, to be in New York for an event like this. And then flash forward four years ago, the opposite. This is like moving to the suburbs.

Steve Jones Jr. (79:59)

Just.

Zach Lowe (80:00)

Just in one anecdote, Croatia beats Brazil in the World cup in penalty kicks. And, like, an epic comeback penalty kick win. My wife is from Croatia, and we're Going crazy in the house, running around the house. She's crying, we're screaming. She opens the door, like, thinking there's gotta be some communal recognition of what just happened. And of course, there's. There's no Croatian people here. There's nothing. No one was watching the game. It's just like silence. And she comes back in the house and immediately calls the closest Croatian restaurant and makes a reservation for like 16 people. Because we're just gonna invite everybody to a place where they'll actually acknowledge. But that communal acknowledgement and celebration is, like, so fun. And I was in San Antonio the year they, Clint, they. They won the 2014 title, which they clinch at home. And I have never seen a scene like that ever. And the arena is not, like, near downtown, so it's not as if you're going to walk out to bars and restaurants. Arnovitz, Kevin Arnovitz, our mutual friend, drove us home from the game to our hotel. We literally could not get to our hotel. Every street was blocked off with police and crazy fans. People were hanging on, like, out of cars, in the back of pickup trucks, on top of cars. And we eventually just had to speed down a Runway road the wrong way down a one way street to get back to our town. So we have to type we got pulled over. I think, if I remember, we got pulled over. And Kevin had explained to the cop, we're just trying to get back to it. It was an absolutely crazy scene. San Antonio is crazy.

Shay Serrano (81:29)

Yeah, it's a beautiful basketball town. That's my favorite championship we've ever won of the five. Because there's a small part of you that thought it was over. We weren't going to ever do it again with that core anyway. We had lost in 2013. You're like, man, this is never going to happen again. And then, yeah, that gate that gave five. Oh. In Avalanche by San Antonio. I've never forget Mike Breen screaming when Manu hits the three with like three threes in a row. And yeah, when the, when. When the spurs are good, San Antonio is like, just alive in a way that not a lot of places are because it's our only professional team. We don't have any. There's no football, there's no baseball. We've had minor league, minor league stuff. But as far as, like the professional, there's nothing competing with it. And so it's a basketball town. It's a military city, basketball city. And yeah, when it's leaving the arena, game one, just being in the arena before the start of game one. And you could feel like it had been years. Oh my God, we're back. We're playing high stakes basketball. It just grabs ahold of everybody here, even that non basketball fan. My wife doesn't care about basketball at all. Like not at all. And she took the kids to. There's this place called the Rock in San Antonio where they have like a giant screen and they like show games there. She was like there to watch the game with the kids because like again she could tell you two people who play in the NBA, but she was like, I want it. You just want to be a part of the, like it just grabs a hold of you.

Zach Lowe (83:03)

It's, it's, it's magic when sports does that. And now you're in it. Now let's, let's just briefly turn to game three. Portland. You're going to another great basketball city in Portland where the fans are crazy. We don't know if Wemby's going to play. It's a home game. So presumably the owner of the Blazers will actually fund like the two way players going to the game. Maybe the team photographer can get like an Uber ride paid for if he doesn't have a car from his house to the game. But put your coach's head on like Wemby aside. Like what, give me something you're watching for in this game or something about the Blazers that's getting under your skin. Like what do, what do we got in there? What's in your vision?

Shay Serrano (83:38)

I do not like Denny at all. Like, I do not like watching him play basketball. He's so good and he's so smart and just the thing that he does where he gets the ball at a three point line and you're like, well he's about to just crash into everybody and then make something happen. He does it every single time. There's nothing you can do about it. I don't like it at all. If they were playing anybody else, I would love it, but I hate that. What I'm most excited to watch, what I'm most curious to see. You touched on it briefly at the end of game two. You didn't like the way that de' Aaron Fox played the last.

Zach Lowe (84:11)

I mean, I wouldn't say he missed a couple of shots when he was going at Denny. Denny had five fouls or going at clinging on the drop coverage. He missed a couple shots and then they were loading up to him. Like there was one where he turned the corner on like a handoff play and they just brought everybody in and forced him to kick it to the corner. And that's when Drew Holiday blocked a three in the corner. So, like it would. They were making it hard for him and he just missed shots. It wasn't like he was shying away from the moment or he choked. But in that moment, that with Wemby out and Castle and Harper is their first go around, that's when you want like a 28 point Fox game.

Shay Serrano (84:45)

Yes, that's exactly right. So I really want to see that. I really, I feel like Wimby goes down. It's sort of hard to get your feet back under you in the moment if you're, if you're one of the spurs players there, I imagine. Right. So I'm anticipating they're going to come in here and both Castle and, and Fox are going to be like, okay, we got to go win this game. It's got to be us. Us too. The other guys will follow whatever, whatever we do. So I really want to see that happen. I think it's going to happen. We watched it a number of years ago with Derrick White game in Denver when he's like, I'm just going to go win this game. He like made the leap that night. Like, I want to see that happen in the playoffs. Same with Devin Vassell. This is the first time in the playoffs he's like, he's our like assassin player. Let me see you go do it on the road. Let me watch you go make it happen. I'm really interested in seeing what we do there. I really love Portland basketball games. I got to go to one. I happened to be in Portland for like a work thing and the spurs were in town and I was like, I'm just gonna watch the spurs play. And it was the first, I think it was the first game back after LaMarcus left Portland to go to Santiago. So they were booing the, they were booing the hell out of that, man. They do that cool thing where they pass the game ball down through the stands.

Zach Lowe (85:59)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Shay Serrano (86:00)

To the. I'd never seen that before. I just, it's, it's a, it's, it's gonna be a madhouse in there and, and I'm a little bit nervous. I do think we're gonna win, but I'm a little bit nervous about it. But that's mainly what I'm watching for. I just want to see, I just want to see our guy. I love Dylan Harper. Can I tell you my Dylan Harper theory?

Zach Lowe (86:18)

What not to love about Dylan Harper? But yeah, of course.

Shay Serrano (86:20)

I've not gotten to tell anybody this on a podcast yet. I want to make this public, but I have this theory of like, if a father played in the NBA and his son plays in the NBA, the roles always get inverted, whatever they were. The son becomes this other thing. So like you look at Michael Thompson, right? A role player. Great role player. Klay Thompson comes in superstar, right? Dale Curry, role player. Steph Curry, superstar. LeBron James, superstar Bronnie James, role player. If I'm looking at Ron Harper and I'm like, we get a superstar version of Ron Harper, who. Ron Harper was already a monster. But if we get a better version of Ron Harper. I've been very high on Dylan since the, since the first, the summer league game. Our first summer league game. He played against Cooper Flag. Everybody's like, cooper flag.

Sean Fennesee (87:13)

Cooper Flag.

Shay Serrano (87:13)

Cooper Flag. And he locked them up. Locked him up. I said, hell yeah, he's got the dog in him. I'm very excited about Dylan Harper. I really. He's so steady and calm. I think it translates well to the road. I think we win the game. I think they're going to play great. Fingers crossed.

Zach Lowe (87:31)

Yeah. I mean, look, pre injury Ron, pre knee injury, Ron Harper was a monster. And Dylan Harper has a chance to be better than that defensively. That's been my favorite thing about him since I started watching his clips at Rutgers. Like that guy. And, and you've seen them, they, they give it. They've given everybody a try on Denny. Like the primary guy is Castle, but they'll switch a bunch of guys on him. I, I do wonder if in this game they'll play. They'll try. And Portland has some agency in this to try to play Denny and scoot a little bit more conservatively. Like make them shoot jumpers, go under screens against them instead of giving them lanes to attack. But again, Portland can disguise things to make it harder to do that. And I'm glad you mentioned Visell. Like he has really amped up in the last month. The non shooting parts of his game. Defense, like he's getting, he's flying in for these like really well, like contested defensive rebounds. He's. He got a couple shot blocks and deflections in game one. That guy is starting to put together all the elements of his game. So I'm interested to see sort of all those things. It should be a fun game. 3. I guess the dog's got to get ready for.

Shay Serrano (88:34)

She's got to get ready. My beloved Penny is going to be on that recliner with me.

Zach Lowe (88:38)

I Think that's the proper way to watch a big postseason game is either by yourself or with the fewest amount of people around you as possible. Because you don't. I mean, if you're anything like me, you don't want people to see you like that. If it, if it goes badly, like, it's like that side of me is not for anyone else to consume.

Shay Serrano (88:57)

We. Yeah, you need, you need to watch a game with a person who is the same level of fan as you are when you get to this stage of the playoffs. Because you're both going to be maniacs. You remember when, when, when castle had a 40 point triple double in the. Against the Mavericks in the. I was at that game. I went with our friend Kurt Goldsberry, right?

Zach Lowe (89:20)

Ah, Professor Goldsberry.

Shay Serrano (89:21)

Kurt came down from Austin. He said, hey, I'm gonna be at this game. You wanna come? I got a ticket for you if you wanna come. I'll meet you up there. Great, I'll be there. And Kirk, Kirk is. Kirk. He gets great, great seats. So we were in one of those, like open air boxes and I'm sitting there, me and Kirk just sitting there chatting. And then Manu comes and sits right in front of us. And him and Kirk and Manu are buddies. And then R.C. buford comes, sits behind us. I was like sandwiched in between these two. Like, oh, my God, I'm watching a game with these guys. But I'm sitting there watching the game and I'm screaming my head off the whole time. And I didn't realize most of the people in the boxes were not doing that because I'm just watching the game going. And then at the third quarter, I get a tap on my shoulder and I turn around and it's R.C. and he's like, oh, you're a real fan. And I was like, oh, my. And I got. Am I not supposed to be. My bad. I didn't. No, no, it's great, it's great. We love to see what's going on. But yeah, you gotta watch a game with people who like, react the way that you react to basketball. Otherwise you look like a crazy person

Zach Lowe (90:22)

when you started telling that story. I know RC well enough to know he would have loved to see unhinged Shay and not. He would not have ever been like, sir, this is a professional atmosphere. All right. Shay Serrano, you know him from everywhere. Good luck in game three to you and your family. Thanks for coming on and I will see you down the road, my friend. This episode is brought to you by Adobe Firefly the all in one creative studio with AI powered image and video generation built for today's creative process, Firefly helps you generate, edit and experiment fast because the asks aren't getting smaller and the timelines. Ooh yeah, still tight. With all the best creative AI models in one place, Firefly brings your ideas to life. Learn more@adobe.com Firefly this episode is brought to you by New Era. You know how some eras of the NBA just hit different as the official cap of the NBA? New Era is bringing back the good stuff with NBA Hardwood Classics collection. Vintage logos, timeless icons, killer throwback energy. No matter what hat style you prefer, New Era has them all. We're talking 5,950 fitteds or adjustable styles like the 940 A frames and 970s sporting classics like the old school Vancouver Brizzlies, the Bulls, the Lakers. All this stuff that you remember from your childhood. If you're my age, old school roots, modern drip. Visit newera cap.com to shop now and use one time code ringer for 20% off your first order exclusions apply.

Shay Serrano (91:52)

All right,

Zach Lowe (91:55)

well, I thought a couple weeks ago, let's just wait until they break the losing streak to do a Mets corner. And then the losing streak never ended and we scheduled one because it was obviously an emergency. And then the Mets did a thing last night that they had not done in 12 games. They won a baseball game against the Minnesota Twins. Not surprisingly, they won three two because the only games they can win are three to something or two to something or one to something, because God knows they're not going to score more than three runs in any game. They held on for dear life. They are now 8 and 16. Sean, I just don't even know I know where I want to start. But you have, you, you have experienced more pain in the last 15 years than I have because I took a little gap, a gap. So I just yield the floor to you. How are you doing?

Sean Fennesee (92:50)

If we had spoken two nights ago or yesterday, my voice would have been raised. I would have been ranting. I might have been crying. Today. I feel weirdly, weirdly okay. And that's baseball for you. You know, one win and all of a sudden the gears started turning in my head and thinking, like, is there a way out of this? Is this, could this be okay? And this is the insidious nature of this sport. And this team that has been bedeviling me for 40 years is even after probably, I think, the most sustained, awful stretch that I can remember. And I know that there's been longer losing streaks in my lifetime, but this is. This was bad.

Zach Lowe (93:42)

I'm so glad I came back. I'm so glad. I feel like I've really. 45 and 24. I didn't even bother doing the math for, like, I wonder what their record is after 45 and 24, best record in baseball last year, because I just. It's right. I feel like I'm experiencing just the worst right away. So continue. I'm sorry.

Sean Fennesee (94:04)

No, no, I. I mean, I think they have like a.400 winning percentage since that 45 and 24 stretch. Which. Where do. Where do you. Where do you really want to start, I guess, is the question, like, do you want to speak specifically about the team and its failures? Do you want to speak about the. In his future? Do you want to speak about the injuries? Do you want to speak about David Stearns and his construction of the roster? Sure, let's talk about that.

Zach Lowe (94:26)

Well, I want to start with. First of all, Soto came back.

Sean Fennesee (94:29)

He did.

Zach Lowe (94:29)

And Lindor immediately got hurt. And we're awaiting MII results on Lindor. Lindor, who after 21 games was on pace for eight RBIs for the season and then quadrupled his RBI total with one swing and had another one last night and seemed to be turning the corner. And of course, as soon as, like, Lindor maybe have been alive, he got hurt. Soto came back immediately, hit a long fly ball in the first inning to advance Bichette from second to third. And I was watching with my daughter, I was like, oh, that's what it looks like for a guy to hit a ball hard and far. Like, hard, high and far. I forgot. Forgot all about that. I want to start here. I'm 48 years old. I was an absolutely insane Mets fan, as people know from my awareness, till 2003 or 2004. And there were a lot of good times in that span. There's a World series. The late 90s were generally very good. The 80s and early 90s, until the bottom fallout in 91, were okay. Obviously, the only thing that I'm asking for, living in Fairfield County, Connecticut, where it's like 75% Yankee fins. The only thing that I'm asking for is don't fucking embarrass me. Don't make me go around and have to get laughed at and pitied. Now it's pitied. Now it's like, oh, you're really going through a tough time by all the fans of the Evil Empire. And right away, this is just Everyone is clowning the Mets. So just a sample of things that I saw the Twins, the fucking Twins tweet out, like things that come in dozens eggs and Mets losses. The New York Times runs an entire article about the curse of Mom Donnie meeting Mr. And Mrs. Met and makes a mistake in the article and instead of having any journalistic integrity about the mistake, turns the correction into a joke at the Mexican Spence saying, we messed up the day that they suffered their 11 game loss. Whatever. 11 straight loss. They were off. Even the Mets can't lose on an off day. You know what? New York Times? Screw you. Screw you. I'm a subscriber. I'm a games app subscriber.

Sean Fennesee (96:41)

Yes, I am as well.

Zach Lowe (96:43)

Maybe I won't be. How about that espn, The Associated Press ran a story for their first home game where they sent a reporter to go to the game and talk to fans. And just about why are you at this game in this empty, cold stadium? And one of the fans was like, yeah, I tried to get my wife to go and my kid to go. Nobody would come with me. So I just bought a ticket and came by myself. And the stories accompanied by photos of guys in the paper bag like were the Saints in the 1980s. And this is even worse for me because tomorrow the Mets are hosting a group from my hometown, kids and parents from my hometown for something I won't. It's just a nice little fun thing. And so this has been known for months and there's like a hundred people from our school going to the game. I'm not going to go because there's three NBA playoff games that night. But it's all everyone's been talking about, like, oh, we're going. Everyone's going to go to the Mets game. We all have a bunch of cheap seats. So this is just fresh in my community, everyone talking about the Mets. And then as gradually more and more people realize like, oh, we might go there. It might be on a 14 game losing streak when we go, are they're going to get booed? I've been prepping my daughter like they're going to get booed. Just be. And she. And she's like, why? They're trying their best. Why don't Dill's fans go up there and try to hit a baseball? So this is all I'm asking for is don't turn the Mets into the continuous walking punchline of my life. And this is what they are now. It's just humiliating. I don't want to be humiliated. Is that too Much to ask.

Sean Fennesee (98:15)

A plus rant. I couldn't have said it better myself. That was amazing. I didn't realize when you dubbed this segment Mets Corner that it was meant to mirror the boy in the dunce cap in the classroom. Sitting in the corner like, that's what we are, is two freaking losers wearing a dunce cap, spending every afternoon, or in every evening, in your case, checking in on what's going on with this pain cave. But everything you said is true. And, you know, nature abhors a vacuum, and nobody loves a loser. You know, like, that's just. These are just facts. The Mets are just losers, man. Like, I don't know what the heck is going on. I. I honestly thought going into the season that they were going to be the first Mets corner of the season. I was like, God, they're going to be really tough to pitch to. This lineup is going to be really interesting. Could I have been more wrong about anything in my entire life? The roster is a joke every night. I can't imagine they're going to score more than three runs. It is astonishing how boring the team is. Maybe it was false optimism in an effort to be more positive. At this stage of my life, I really did think that something interesting was going to be happening this year. And it's actually the opposite. And it's exactly what you're saying, which is it's embarrassment. It's a pathetic quality, that it's not just Yankee fans, it's not just, you know, trolls online. It's like everyone is justified to mock whatever this is. All baseball fans. Anybody who's aware of American sports is justified in making fun of what the team is doing. And there's rational, logical, analytical reasons why. But then there's also this other thing. There's this cosmic cloud. And I know many fans of many teams feel this way, right? Like, if you're a Bengals fan, you feel like you're cursed. If you're a Browns fan, you feel like you're cursed. If you're, you know, a Sabers fan, you feel like you're cursed. There's a lot of franchises that have these negative feelings. The Vikings have never won a Super super bowl, for example. But the Mets, man, they tend to make their awfulness operatic. And this has been an operatically bad stretch.

Zach Lowe (100:30)

I mean, they have the highest payroll in baseball, and they're 8 and 16. That's. That's the number one reason why every fan of any team is justified in mocking them. That should be impossible to do before the season. Your optimism Our optimism was not misplaced. Their over under was like 90, 90 and a half. 89 and a half, like solid playoff contender kind of number.

Sean Fennesee (100:55)

I put it to 91 wins.

Zach Lowe (100:57)

Keith Law predicted that they would make the World Series and lose to the Mariners. And I understand all my rational baseball friends, I'm on a few text chains. First of all, one of the text chains last night, Cubs fan Tim, who's been mentioned many times, tech, there's three of us. It's a small chance. Two Mets fans and a Cubs fan texted us in the ninth, wake up your kids. As in like you got like they might win. Wake up your kids. Like even he's just like getting into it. I don't even know where I was going with that. But it's, it's oh, the rat. Like my rational, I have another text chain with two Mariners fans and some other people. They're like, you can't even look at the standings till Memorial Day. None of this matters. The Mets will be fine. Like I did. They didn't even like register that something historically terrible was going on. Partly because the Mariners are not having a good season either. And I'm like, really? Because it feels like the season is over and they're awful and none of them can hit and everyone who is an injury risk is already injured and the bullpen has been a disaster Again, not again. I mean like Diaz, Diaz is not pitching well for the Dodgers but Airbender is bending nothing and air flattener and now there's like no one has ever lost 12 games in a row in April and made the playoffs or something like that. Or maybe it's at any point in the season. So yeah, forgive me if I feel like the season is over, especially if Lindor is now going to be injured. Senga, it's like they don't even count know if they can count on him anymore. We're two weeks, three weeks a month into the season. It's like well, we're not sure about Peterson. Is he going to be in the rotation and we use an opener for him and Senga will have. We got to really get him right. And now they're starting to this guy Christian Scott is starting today. We're already at this stage of the season. We're random dudes. We had a six man rotation with mania as the seventh guy and now a random dude is starting a game. What's happening?

Sean Fennesee (102:46)

Well, it to Scott's credit, he was a high profile prospect three seasons ago. He got injured and got Tommy John and he has Been working his way back in Tommy John three seasons ago, there was a feeling like this was the number three starter of the future. I'm still hopeful that that's what Christian Scott is and what Christian Scott represents And what Nolan McClain represents, I think

Zach Lowe (103:06)

is thank God for Nolan McLean.

Sean Fennesee (103:07)

Thank God. I agree. Thank God for him. To me, that's, I think, what the general manager of the team is banking on for the long term health of this team. So we can talk about that at some point is like, what is this? How does this look in the long term versus how much of pain are we going to endure this season? But this season, Nolan McClain, Clay Holmes and Freddie Peralta have been good.

Zach Lowe (103:33)

Like Freddie's been. Freddy's been decent. Decent.

Sean Fennesee (103:36)

I would say he's been above average.

Zach Lowe (103:38)

Okay, yeah, that's fair.

Sean Fennesee (103:39)

I would say he has done more than enough to win all but one start he has made.

Zach Lowe (103:44)

Oh, I pity our starting pitch. I was watching, we were watching Clay Holmes last night, my daughter and I, I'm like, I taught her what run support means. Like, like, would it be nice to give him some run support? And she was like, well, what is exactly does that mean? I explained her. I was like, I feel bad for these guys. They throw out like seven innings, one run loss, no decision. They'll never get any wins. None of these starters will get 10 wins. The way this is going.

Sean Fennesee (104:03)

Clay Holmes is, is quietly climbing that very long list of met starters who you genuinely believe in where like every time he's on the bump, I'm like, I think, I think he's going to throw seven innings and give up one run today. And that's so strange because he's a converted reliever who's in his 30s, but he's got this incredible pitch mix. He's really fun to watch pitch. He's a real bulldog. Anyway, they've gotten good starting pitching from their 1, 2, 3 in their rotation. McClain, who, you know has carried a perfect game into the sixth inning in two games already this season, looks like, like Jacob deGrom. I mean, he looks like a dude who we're going to be pouring our heart and soul into for the next ten years, God willing. So, like, that's the good, right? Those are the, those are the three good things that we have, is those guys Peterson and Senga. Neither of those guys are part of the long term future of this team. Neither of them are probably going to end the season in the rotation. It's sad. Peterson was a first round pick. I've rooted hard for him over the years.

Zach Lowe (105:00)

All Star last year.

Sean Fennesee (105:01)

He was an all Star last year. I thought that that was him coming around. You know, there's that adage about lefties kind of figuring it all out in their late 20s and then going on to have long careers. But he's really back. We'll see if he can be effective out of the bullpen. But the lineup makes me want to drink bleach. Man, I can't believe how painful, how pathetic, how sad it is to watch these guys hit. Like, the approach is baffling. Now we've got a whole new coaching staff aside from the general manager, new hitting coaches. This is. It's not just that this team spends a lot of money in its payroll, which is publicly available. It's that they spend a lot of money across a lot of bands of the organization. The analytics teams and the coaching staffs have these very specific backgrounds. And one assumes they're supplying a tremendous amount of data and strategy to the players on a daily basis. And what I see is a lot of guys thinking first ball, fastball, trying to get ahead early and try to get a hit early in the count. So with getting the pitch that they're looking for, which is a, you know, a codified baseball strategy right now, but that is leading to 100 million ground balls to second base, I can't believe how many ground balls this team hits, and I can't believe the lack of action. To your point about Juan Soto hitting one long fly ball that was caught being the 12th most exciting thing that's happened to the team this year. It's astonishing. And it's really, to a man other than Francisco Alvarez, every single hitter this season, aside from Francisco Alvarez, when they're up at the plate, I'm like, this is going to be a put out at third base and they're going to go down 1, 2, 3, and there's going to be no strategy. Mendoza is going to take no chances. Like, we're in a place where they just got it. Like, try to bunt three times in a row. You know, try to do something.

Zach Lowe (106:54)

Yeah, bring back the bunt, bring back the bunt.

Sean Fennesee (106:57)

Even Alvarez, that's supposed to bunt in 2026, but try something.

Zach Lowe (107:01)

Even Alvarez, just classic stat line for the Mets this season. Four home runs, five RBIs. Like, awesome. Just none of this. Every home runs, a solo home run.

Sean Fennesee (107:08)

I know he hits the ball hard, though.

Zach Lowe (107:11)

I want him to play every day because he mashes the ball. And we did, like, I assume at Some point these guys will play to their track records, right? Like Bichette is going to play better than they had. Double last night, scored the first run, Polanco is already injured. Robert's been all right. Simeon just, I, I mean Nimmo has an.863 OPS right now and that like you can combine three guys in our lineup and not quite get to an.863 OPS. Pete, Pete has not been very good for the Orioles. This one assumes he will come around. But yeah, you know, this is the other thing, why everyone's justified to make fun of them because they have the highest payroll in baseball. So you're not allowed when you're paying Juan Soto 3/4 of a billion dollars and you have the highest payroll in baseball, it'd be like, yeah, but in three years we're really well set up. Like if you look at all these, you can't, no, you don't get to do that. And you let a franchise icon, all time home run leader walk for nothing. You traded the longest tenured player on the team, I think in Nimmo, who I could take or leave, but at least like the guy was good for 20 to 25 home runs and hit the ball pretty hard. And Diaz is not lighting it up, but Devin Williams has been awful. But I want to go back to what you said before. So I, I remember we talked about this one on one of our earlier segments. Like the Mets being a cosmic joke to me kind of caught me off guard because in my time as a die hard Mets fan, yeah, they had six straight sub 500 seasons from 91 to 96 or six or I think six. And there's like the Vince Coleman firework thing. There's some embarrassment in there. But I mean every team other than the Yankees goes through troughs like that. And they weren't like horrible, horrible. Other than one or two of those years I grew up, they were awesome and they won a World Series and they went deep into the playoffs in other years. Then in the mid-90s to late 90s, they got really good again. They made another World Series. And then I kind of. So I remember talking to you like, I don't like, why are they considered this joke of a franchise? And you filled me in on some of the collapses of the Willie Randolph era and this and that. And now it's like, oh, now I get it. Now I'm living it. Now I'm, now I'm getting my real taste of it.

Sean Fennesee (109:18)

This is what it feels like for sure. I was trying to think back because, you know, the Phillies have been awful this season too. And they actually are now the owners of not just the basement in the National League east, but I think they now have the worst record in baseball and the worst run differential. And was texting with Chris Ryan a bit and our friend Tracy, who's also a Cubs fan, and I was wondering when was the last time the Mets and the Phillies were both bad? And this was a time when you were not following the team. I had forgotten that in 2017, the Mets and the Phillies combined to win, I believe, 136 games. They won 66 and 70 games and they were at the bottom of the National League East. That's not that long ago, that's only nine years ago that the Mets won 70 games in the season and the Phillies were even worse. So it's not like this can't happen to big market clubs that spend money. But the Mets in 2017, when they were still under the Will Pons ownership, were not spending $380 million like this team. And if you look at the way the money has been allocated on this roster, it's scary, dude. Don't forget that Frankie Montas is making like $18 million this year. Don't forget that Luis Robert is making $20 million this year. Don't forgetthat Boba Shet is making $42 million this year with a.

Zach Lowe (110:32)

He's got a player option, right?

Sean Fennesee (110:33)

With a player option that I think elevates it to four.

Zach Lowe (110:36)

I mean, if he plays like this, you can pen that one in right now. Like, of course I'm opting in.

Sean Fennesee (110:40)

You know, I think that there is something kind of fascinating about the fact that there's only three guys under contract in 2028. And we can look down the road and we can say, oh, well, you know, Christian Scott will be in the rotation and Nolan McLean will be leading the team and Jonah Tong will be up by then too, and Jack Weninger too. And we'll have this super rotation of 24 year olds and hey, maybe Ryan Clifford will be up and by then Carson Benj will be an all Star and we can kind of like game out what we. What I think David Stearns really wants and what I suggested to you over the winter, what I thought he was doing. But the short term moves to make the team competitive. Now while you've got all these guys and even the trade for Peralta, which featured two big prospects who I think are not off to the greatest starts in Milwaukee, but that was a heavy price to pay all of that could look, it could look, it could go from looking really stupid to catastrophic very quickly. And then we're going to wake up one day and it's going to be 10 years and the Mets are going to have 191 season under Steve Cohen. I mean, the team has just not been successful under Cohen. Like, we can't avoid this topic anymore. They had one 100 win season which was the culmination of a group of players who were developed under a different ownership, coming into their true primes, their 26, 27, 28 year old seasons, plus stepping out and spending big on a couple of pitchers like Max Scherzer, which was the big announcement that Cohen made in addition to acquiring Francisco Lindor. So they had 100 win season that year and collapsed mightily in the playoffs. And embarrassingly since then. 2024 was a lot of fun. But doesn't it feel flukish when you look back on it now?

Zach Lowe (112:12)

It's amazing. I mean, 18 months ago the Mets were in the National League Championship Series. That was like yesterday in sports terms.

Sean Fennesee (112:24)

Sean Malaya also makes $25 million, by the way, just for the record. He's not, not even in the rotation.

Zach Lowe (112:30)

I mean he's barely in the bullpen. Peralta. The lack of an extension for him is interesting. We'll see what happens there. A lot has been written about that just to just some things. 30th as of going into yesterday's game, 30th and on base percentage, 30th in slugging percentage, 30th in OPS. Buster only had the same piece out where he was talking on one of his tidbits about how teams were throwing more than the usual percentage of fastballs against the Mets, which was, I guess like is considered almost disrespectful of your lineup. Like, we can even dial up our fastball even more because you can't hit the straight thing or the seamer or whatever. It's just, it's, it's shocking. And I would actually. You brought up Steve Cohen rather than me say it. Would you like to talk about his Twitter account?

Shay Serrano (113:15)

Yeah.

Sean Fennesee (113:16)

He should delete it. I don't understand. I do understand his mentality because I'm very appreciative of him as an owner because I found the Wilpons to be baffling as an ownership group and their cheapness. And I know that there were some specific reasons, especially in the 2010s, why they got even cheaper than they had been prior to that. But Steve Cohen has spent money every single year. He has owned the team, he has thrown a ton of money into the organization. They've clearly improved the way that the farm system operates, the way that the departments beyond what happens on the field operate. Going to Citi Field is a lot of fun. You know, it's a great, it's a great ballpark. So all of those organizational things, I can laud them and appreciate them. His communication with the fan base leaves a lot to be desired. Scolding the fan base in the first 10 games of the year after the collapse of last season is nightmare pr And I realize he's extraordinarily wealthy and there's probably no one who can speak to him about why this is a terrible idea. But from the free ticket sales, you know, the free ticket giveaway that he spoke about and then the lack of people showing up for that and him scolding fans about that, followed by. In the midst of the losing streak, the, the infamous Green shoots tweet, which is I thought was just a deplorable act of communication. Like I can't imagine a stupider thing happening to the Mets this year.

Zach Lowe (114:43)

And they were like five to six games into the losing streak by that point. And you sent it to me on, you texted me, I hadn't seen it. I, I mean Green shoots in a six game losing streak is for pick your small market rebuilding team.

Sean Fennesee (115:00)

Exactly.

Zach Lowe (115:01)

Like it's not, it's not for this team.

Sean Fennesee (115:03)

Exactly. That's not. New York sports fans are obnoxious and they're, they're, they're anxious and they're prone to anger, but they're not stupid. Like we're not stupid. We watch the team every night. I watch the team every night. Like they can't hit. We can tell. This, this idea that like a long fly ball from Marcus Simeon is reason to be optimistic is embarrassing. Marcus Simeon is a 35 year old second baseman who has not slugged above.400 in three years. What are we talking about? Don't, like, don't, don't embarrass us is really what I want to say.

Zach Lowe (115:38)

Is Ronnie Mauricio, did he do something wrong to somebody? I feel like we brought him up, he had a game winning hit and I've never seen him again. He's in the minors and I see these updates like Ronnie Mauricio was 3 for 4 in Triple A. I'm like, what? Feels like we might be able to use him for something. I don't know.

Sean Fennesee (115:50)

Like I, I think if Lindor goes down For a long period of time, they should just let Mauricio be the full time shortstop. Let Bichette play third base and stick him there because that's where they're going to need him and he's still developing as a third baseman. And I think they should just let Mauricio. They've never given Mauricio more than like a 10 or 15 game stretch to see if he's a player who can stick in the, in the league. And he's now presumably fully recovered from his injuries two seasons ago. And I'd like to see it, but you know, I also wanted Mark Vientos to get consistent playing time and he's getting it. You know what he's doing? Dumb shit.

Zach Lowe (116:23)

Game winning hit last night.

Sean Fennesee (116:25)

You're running through a stop sign last night, two nights ago, trying to get the force out at third base on a bunt. When he's not that elegant a fielder. He just, he's got brain lock in a couple of different ways. That's the other thing. Like the team is wildly undisciplined, Zach. And that falls on the manager. Man, they make a lot of mistakes, Ronnie.

Zach Lowe (116:47)

But we just got an update. Ronnie Mauricio is on his way to Queens and will be recalled with Francisco Orlando, likely headed to the il. Okay, great. There you go.

Sean Fennesee (116:57)

I think that's your starting shortstop for the next three weeks.

Zach Lowe (117:00)

Whatever, whatever it is. On the undisciplined thing, I've been protective of our daughter on the stream of Lindor. Like what? Why did you not charge the ball of those sorts of mental errors? I've been, I've been. She was devastated to learn this morning that he got hurt, but I've been protecting her because those have been, those have been also bad. Look, I mean, here's where I'll let out. They're 8 and 16. Is there a small part of my brain that's like, hey, why not make history? If no team has ever lost 12 in a row, they've got all this talent, why not? You know, every impulse of my body, 90% of it wants to say the season is over. This is disgusting. And it probably is. There's always going to be the why not thing going on here. And like give it a month, right? If they haven't crawled within three games of 500, if they don't start making up some ground, you don't have to go on a 12 game winning streak to make up for the 12 losing streak. You just have to do the opposite of the slow drip of what happened. Last year. If they don't do that in a month, then the season is over. It probably already is over. But look, I'm not, I'm not bailing. I'm here, I'm interested to see how Mauricio plays. I'm not going to give up hope. It's just. It's just so dispiriting because the season is so long and there are so many games and all you want is to have some stakes in the games and it's already feels like, okay, there's another loss.

Sean Fennesee (118:26)

I have bailed on many a Knicks season. I've bailed on the occasional jets season. I've never bailed on a Met season. I always stick it out. I'm always interested because the failure tends to inform what will happen in the off season. And I'm. The Mets have only had off seasons for the most part in the last 35 years to think about. And so this was an off season that I was so fascinated by. I was so interested to see. I knew the, the breakup of the core was going to happen and I was preparing myself for it and I wasn't surprised by it. It's a little hard to look at the Nimmo thing. And I, when we did talk three weeks ago, I did say this Simeon trade might end up looking terrible. And it does look terrible so far. Now also, Brandon Nimmo is injury prone and tends to to break down over a season. If he finishes the year with a above an.850 OPS, I think automatically that trade is not a good deal. Even though Nimmo still has four more years and Simeon has two more years. You basically punted on a valuable season and you picked up a deeply declined player. But the one thing I just want to say really quickly because I think our instincts are to say, okay, well, we lost Pete, we lost Nimmo, we lost McNeil, we lost Diaz, and we replaced them with these guys. These guys and these guys. This is not a binary. The choice was not only Jorge Polanco or Pete Alonso. Look in Chicago at Munataka Murakami, who's playing third base and hitting the ball 480ft every night. Munataka Murakami went to the worst team in baseball or what was the worst team in baseball on a cheap deal. Where were the Mets on?

Zach Lowe (119:57)

Because he strikes out too much, right? That was the thing. He strikes out too much. How's that going to translate?

Sean Fennesee (120:01)

But they were afraid he couldn't hit fastballs. They were afraid he couldn't hit American major League fastballs and you know who can't hit American major league fastballs? Mets.

Zach Lowe (120:13)

I will conclude it's you talked about the offseason and failure informing. I am again not knowing much about the mechanics of baseball in terms of front office machinations and trade deadlines. I'll learn all that. I did text you like if this were the NBA and I understand everyone good has a no trade clause on the Mets. I get it. If this were the NBA there would already be rumors of like teams calling about Soto and teams or the Mets going to. Is that just not a thing in baseball? Like why would a team not try to or why would the Mets not be like hey, maybe it's time to pull the ripcord and trade this guy for like 8amazing prospects. Is that just not a thing that happens?

Sean Fennesee (120:48)

The Soto thing is unusual because I think he has an opt out after five seasons. So he's in his second season with the team and I believe you could get a ton for him but not as much as you might think because of the size of his contract and there's not very many teams that are willing to carry $75 million per year or whatever his annual salary is. Lindor. The time to trade Lindor was last off season. You know, that was the time and I didn't want to do it. I wasn't advocating for it. But his value was incredibly high and he has effectively, I think an eight or nine year contract left. And if you look at some of the contracts that were given out to players who are far less gifted or with a far weaker resume than Lindor, you could see people just picking up the remainder of his deal happily and trading prospects for it. Now you know, he got off to another slow start. He broke his handmade bone and now he's got some sort of calf injury and he's a 32 year old shortstop who is not in the prime of his career anymore. I love the guy. I love that he's brought to the team. I was baffled by his mistakes earlier this season, but I'm hopeful that it was just like he was going through something personal and it was leading to some brain farts. Like I have to hope that that's what it was because he's actually one of the savviest and smartest Mets I've seen in the last 20 years. So him doing those things was bizarre. Those two guys to me obviously have the most value beyond the stud pitching. If they continue in this way and they're like 10 games under.500 in the middle of June. They should be selling everything they can. They should be selling off. They should be turning this team into a flea market, man.

Zach Lowe (122:22)

Well, everything's going great. Sean Fennesee, it's wonderful to see you. You know Sean from the big picture, of course, and associated other ringer appearances. He also just started a substack, things We Think, But do not say, which I'm going to subscribe to right after we get off this. I can't wait to read it and maybe it will inspire me, who knows? But you're a beautiful writer and it's nice to see the writing coming back. And we'll reconvene at some point and maybe we'll, maybe we'll be just eight games under.500. Still would be.500 between now and the next one. Who the hell knows?

Sean Fennesee (122:54)

Zach, thank you very much. And let me tell you this. Let's go Mets.

Zach Lowe (122:58)

Yeah, let's go. Why not? What's the opposite? Let's go Mets. Luke Weaver said it after the game last night. Let's go, Mets. Let's go.

Sean Fennesee (123:05)

Let's go.

Zach Lowe (123:05)

Why not? Sean Fennesee, thank you, sir.

Sean Fennesee (123:07)

Bye, Zach.

Zach Lowe (123:10)

All right, that's it for today's Zach Lowe Show. Enjoy the games tonight. Enjoy the weekend. I will be back Sunday night with Bill to recap whatever madness happens in the NBA over the playoff weekend. Thank you to Steve Jones, Jr. For his incomparable insight. Thank you to the great Shay Serrano for coming on and telling some fun stories. Thanks, I guess, to Sean Fennesee for some Mets therapy. Thanks, as always, to Mike, Billy and Jonathan on production. And thanks to you all for listening to and or watching the Zach Lowe show. See you next week. 21 or over and president select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over in President, D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MY RESET. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatincenetic or is it mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland? Hope is here. Visit Gambling Helpline ma.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York. For Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7867.