← The Zach Lowe Show
The Zach Lowe Show
Jayson Tatum is Back! Plus, the Players We Love to Watch and a Raptors Check-In.
01:45:02
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- [00:00]
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This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. When you pull off a superior play, like blocking a winning shot to push the game into overtime, it feels good. It even gives you shivers sometimes. All the best moments are served ice cold like that. Just like Michelob Ultra, the official beer partner of the NBA, Ultra is a superior light beer with only 95 calories and a crisp, refreshing taste. And you know what makes it even more superior? Michelob Ultra is giving fans like you the chance to win some incredible prizes, including courtside seat tickets. Michelob Ultra Superior is worth playing for. Enter now@michelob ultra.com Courtside Michelob Ultra Courtside 25 to 26 no purchase necessary. Open U.S. residence 21 or over. Begins on October 1, 2025 and ends on June 30, 2026. Multiple entry periods. See official rules@michelob ultra.com courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes and. Coming up on the Zach Lowe show, the great Chris Ryan is here. It's CR Month on the Rewatchable, so we have him on here. CR Day on the Zach Lowe Show. Jason Tatum is back right in the nick of time before we record it. So we talk all about the implications for the Celtics, what Tatum will look like, what role he'll fill and all of that. Then remember the Marcus Soul All Stars, a column I used to write for Grantland and other places. Just favorite players to watch. That's it. Chris and I both picked a starting five of our favorite players to watch and and a couple anti Marcus Soul All Stars guys that we maybe hate watch. And all of that got us talking about a lot of different stuff. Knicks Thunder Mike Brown lashing out at the officiating vis a vis the Thunder, joining a growing chorus of coaches who are doing that. The Cavs and the Cavs, recent shirts, the Rockets, the Spurs, lots of other stuff. And of course we Talked about Jared McCain and the Sixers and the Thunder because Chris is here. We talked about Lou Cornette versus Magic City. Not so much Nuggets talk, but exciting announcement. The Zach Lowe show is coming live to Denver, Colorado. That's right, Denver. We're bringing the show to you at the Fillmore Auditorium on April 13. Tickets go on sale March 9 Monday, March 9 at 10am Mountain Time. Come join the Zach Lowe show and special guests at the Fillmore auditorium in Denver April 13, right before the playoffs. Again, tickets go on sale the ringer.com events March 9, 10am Check out theringer.com events for more details. Zach Low show coming live to Denver Zach Low show coming into your ears with Chris Ryan and Jack Armstrong.
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Hello.
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To talk about the Raptors right after this, the Zach Low show is brought to you by FanDuel. Things are really heating up on the court and FanDuel is the best place to bet on all the epic matchups during the NBA season. Build a same game parlay for a shot at a bigger payout or, or try live betting and jump into the action after tip off. And don't forget, with FanDuel you get paid instantly when you win. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app now and play your game 21 over in President of Select States 18 or over in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800- GAMBLER call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatinc.
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Foreign.
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Show It's CR Week. CR Month on the Rewatchables and so it has to be CR Week on the Zach Lowe Show. The podcast needs a dose of the great Chris Ryan. How you doing bud?
- [03:29]
C
Good man. Good to see you. Thanks for having me on on CR Month. You know I, I am stretched thin. I got, you know, press box. I gotta do Bachelor next. You know, I'm just doing every show we got.
- [03:41]
A
Look, someone has to be the MVP of this thing. It might as well be you. We're going to do some fun stuff and we plan that out. And before that we have to get to about 5 minutes ago Shams tweeted Jason Tatum is going to return this season perhaps as early is this Friday or this is whatever day it is. March 10th against the Dallas Mavericks. Do you have any reaction to this other than have you checked on Bill? Is, is Bill stressed? Is he happy? I'm sure he's very happy. What's. What's your take?
- [04:09]
C
I haven't checked on him. I'm sure he's going to go live any minute now. Personally, you know, I'm glad my prayers have been answered. It lets me know there is a God. I've just been just hoping and praying for JT to get back on the court. You know that JT size hole in the Celtics was really bothering me. I'm honestly I wish him the best. This will be a really interesting test of I guess it's 2026 and that's what Achilles injuries are are a nine month injury. Now in my experience and in all of our lifetime this was a at least year long thing plus a year of not looking quite like yourself. But they're going to throw him right back into the fire. Do you think that he's going to be a role player on this team or like he says in the documentary that I've seen clips of, he's not coming back to be a role player document?
- [04:58]
A
Well, I think he's, I think it's good minutes wise. I think it will be role player issue at least to start right. That's the most important thing. You just stick them in for whatever amount of minutes he gives you is what he gives you. He takes a little slice of like the Hugo, Gonzalez, Shireman, Walsh minutes. Although those guys are playing well. And I think with the A team on the floor, I think he, he veers a little bit more into not quite like alpha Jason Tatum shoot more spot up threes, drive closeouts, all the stuff that he can do and he's very good at. And then I'm really interested to see when Jaylen Brown is off the floor where the Celtics have been amazing the entire year with Jaylen Brown off the floor. But the offense becomes just like a blur of screens and passes and cuts and a more system based offense which worked really well. I think that's when he'll get some time to cook. To me, I've always like, I know people are worried about the chemistry and disrupting the rhythm this team has and they are, they are the feel good story of the season. They are the biggest surprise of the season. Joe Missoula is my coach of the year at the three quarter mark. They've just been a delight to watch. I just didn't think there was any chance that they were a championship team as is. And so if there's any chance that Jason Tatum can help raise your ceiling, I see like no harm, no foul in this. If it's not working, you got to pivot. But to me, huge win for the Celtics, awesome for Jayson Tatum who was an all time gamer, like just never missed games and now he's back and we'll see. We'll see. I'm like you, I'm fascinated to see how, how it looks. I don't remember a situation quite analogous to this of like star player on a top three seed missing 60 to 65 games and coming back right away for high stakes games. And lastly, I do think it's important he comes back with a nice buffer before the playoffs that would, that would have scared me right into the playoffs.
- [06:47]
C
It's strange. It's just like everything we've been talking about this season, one of the narratives about it is it's just been the increased intensity Full body intensity of the NBA players experience in today's game and how they're expected to cover more ground. And it's corner to corner. So I'll be fascinated to see a guy coming off Achilles immediately get thrown into that fire. And to what extent his defensive responsibilities are maybe, you know, changed, mitigated by his sort of like reemergence on this in this rotation. I'm just kind of like, if you told me in like five years that Achilles's are going to be like the NBA version of Tommy John where they're just like, yeah, we're going to do the Achilles so that his calf stops bothering him. I don't know. I mean, is that where we're going?
- [07:32]
A
Oh, I haven't thought about it like that. Yeah, it's a quick turnaround. I think there was. Bill was on this right away. Like, the rapidity with which they did the surgery I think was helpful in terms of like, whatever was going on inside there inflamed, less scar tissue, whatever it was. And this is. I'd like. When that injury happened, I'll never forget. It was the same night as the draft lottery. It was like an earthquake night in the NBA. Cooper Flag is going to Dallas. Jason Tatum's out for like not just this playoff run, as brief as it looked like it was going to be, but like you kind of wrote off the following season, this season in your head. And now The Celtics are 41 and 21 second in the East. Couple game cushion for number two in the East. And they're getting Jason Tatum back. Like, to me, I just don't see any world in which he come. Any world. Like, there'll be some. There's always hiccups introducing a big piece like that to a team that's played a lot of games without him. But I just don't really see much of a downside, like that's on him and Joe Missoula and everyone else to mitigate whatever instinct you might have to be like, no, Now I'm playing 38 minutes and it's my team again. Like, that's just not realistic. I think everyone probably understands that they
- [08:36]
C
got boat raced by the Hornets last night. So I guess there's a. I, I guess that, that like paved the way a little bit. It was kind of like, you know, like we, we're. We're getting smoked by. By Lamelo. We need, we need a little help here.
- [08:50]
A
Yeah, I think that, you know, pave the way is the right phrasing for it. I think it was A reminder of this team is at 41 and 21 has enjoyed, other than Tatum, 100% perfect health for the most part. Like, no setbacks. And even as is has pretty much no margin between what they are and. And. And, you know, a worse version of themselves. Like, everything's got to go right to be where they are right now, and everything doesn't go right. Wow, that's a big. That's a big bomb to drop right before we get on cr. That's fun. Yeah, he's tall and he can shoot. Those are two very important things. He's not quite as tall as Kevin Durant, and he doesn't shoot as well as Kevin Durant. But, like, that was the. That was why there was all that optimism for Durant's return from the Achilles, because at the very least, you take away whatever he's going to be missing for the first few months, and he's not going to be Jason Tatum right away. Celtics fans need to be ready. Like, it's not going to look like Jason Tatum because he's going to work his way back, but he's tall and he can shoot, and those things don't go away. So that's exciting times in Eastern Conference. All right, so dating back to Grantland website you and I both worked at, you were more of a founder. I was just glomming on midway through. I used to write a column called the Marc Gasol All Stars, and the premise was just simple. My favorite players to watch. Just. That's it. And I tried to veer away from super duper stars because, like, Wemby, duh. Like, we all love Wemby. That's a pretty easy choice, right, Jokic? Same thing, Jokic. But you can pick stars, you can pick any. You can pick role players, you can pick anyone you want. Just the only criteria is, I love watching this dude play basketball. Maybe I'll write it again someday. I don't know. We'll see TBD on that one.
- [10:27]
C
What's the state of your fingers? Have you. Have you entered into the Bill Simmons rehab plan for finger reconstruction?
- [10:34]
A
No, I was going to write this season, and then I decided let me feel the new place out before I overextend myself or extend myself to where it was before. So I'm still feeling up, but they're frisky by reflex. They still shake a little bit like this. So we said, let's pick five. Starting lineup of Marcus Soul All Stars. Hat tip. The great Marcus Soul, one of my favorite players of all time. And I will Let you go first and then we'll just talk about these guys. So I don't know, name, name your first. Do you have a captain? A team captain?
- [11:03]
C
I don't have a team captain, but this is probably my number one option. This is the guy we're looking for down the court every time. And just to put a little bit of context around my picks, this. I always loved this column back at Grayling and what I try to do is it's a numbers free evaluation for the most part. So it's aesthetics, it's competitive fire, it's two way play. But it's guys who my eyes gravitate towards when I'm watching a screen. And if you took away all the numbers, the score, their stat line for the season, whatever their efficiency numbers are across the year, I just like watching these dudes on a nightly basis. And since we mentioned the Hornets, I'll do, I'll do a Hornet that I feel like doesn't get as much dap here because Lamelo gets a lot of highlight reels and Con Canipple gets Uber rides from our boss. But Brandon Miller is a sicko and I love watching him play offense and just, I really enjoy, first of all, the shoulder thing. I don't know whether he is fighting a war in the future in the Terminator movie or what, but it's a very cool look. I'm sure it's medically needed, but it, it is starting to feel kind of like cyborgy, like I have come to save you, Sarah Connor. And I dig it.
- [12:18]
A
Like he should do the Rip Hamilton where he just keeps it forever.
- [12:21]
C
Yeah, I think so. Honestly, like if he's having this kind of season with it, my favorite move from him is when he just kind of slingshots out of the the corner and then gets a handoff out of like, you know, they're running some action at the top of key and he gets a handoff and then it's just like that moment when he's deciding, do I want to take a top of the corner? Three, do I want to dive into the lane, do I want to put this guy on my hip and get contact. I feel like I am watching kind of what you were alluding to, that early version of Kevin Durant where it's kind of all. It's. There's a learning process happening. But he's also like there's really nothing I can't do. The only thing that like, you know, he's had some in and out, like injury, bad luck. But on A nightly basis. When I'm watching the Hornets, like for as much as Khan is the reincarnation of Klay Thompson and Lamelo is so fun, I really, really find myself focusing on, on Brandon.
- [13:14]
A
He, he does a little bit of everything and their surge basically corresponds almost exactly to him getting healthy and having the best stretch of his. The best sustained stretch of his career. The best stretch of his career period. He's awesome. He's up to 38% from threes. And when the playmaking comes with him and you can see him like he kind of sees it. Sometimes he sees it late, sometimes he telegraphs it a little bit, sometimes he's a little laborious, but he sees it and he's trying to level up in that sense. And when that comes, look out, it's a great pick. I'm just going to let you keep rolling.
- [13:45]
C
Okay, here's a fun one which is specifically Timberwolf IO disunmu Ooh. So I needed apparently Nikhil Alexander Walker methadone when watching the Wolves. Like I needed something that was two way, a little pacier, a little bit more aggressive and it was really fun. Just the other night they had a great post game clip with Ant and he was like IO cut came in and now like I have to like run because he just takes off with the ball and he's like, I like to play slow, but it is fun to get like a little bit more of a brisk pace back. And just watching him out there, the two way play is awesome. But this is like, this is an example of a guy who I feel like has like helped me rediscover the Timberwolves when I'm watching them. Because this is a version of the Timberwolves that I, I feel like I was maybe missing for the first half of the season.
- [14:45]
A
He was my number one trade target for them. I said it over and over. I can't believe that. I think I manifested it. I helped manifest it. He's a perfect fit. And like, look as much as they were. They have been my sort of sneak title contender pretty much all season. I had come to grips with the fact that that was contingent on them getting one more guy off the bench. 20 to 28 more minutes of productive perimeter play off the bench. They just didn't have enough. And he's the perfect guy. They got him. It's great and I like that you just disqualified Chicago. I should know. Just not, not eligible.
- [15:15]
C
But it's just like most Chicago Bulls wind up getting traded to the Kings. They spend their entire careers in this sort of like two team purgatory of, of failure. And this has just been great to watch him go to a Western Conference contender. I think they're like five or six and two since they got him, and he seems to be growing into the role there. And I really enjoy watching him and Ant specifically play together.
- [15:38]
A
I like it. I'm going to give me your third starter.
- [15:41]
C
Okay. This was my actually number one draft pick when you gave me this assignment. This is Stefan Castle, our first commonality.
- [15:48]
A
Stefan Castle is on my team too, so that's why I wanted you to keep going. I'm like, I bet we're going to get a match somewhere.
- [15:54]
C
In my extensive college basketball viewing, I over the last couple of years, which is really like, I'm lying. I don't watch a lot of college groups, but Castle was a guy I did watch at UConn and was like, this guy's going to be really good. He's awesome. And it turns out I was right. It turns out like the San Antonio spurs were right. I have really loved watching him. Blossom is a playmaker, which has been kind of surprising given the depth they have at guard. But, you know, his assist numbers are up. I love his little lobs. He always seems to be looking for a lob. He is like a panther when it comes to any loose ball. It seems like it shows up in his hands and it's an immediate break. I love watching his two, two man game with Wemby. It seems like also this is my favorite period of time in a guard's career where, like, everything they do seems to happen in the lane. Like, I love when he just is, like, getting in there and he's got shooters, but he's like, I might just two hand dunk this thing, you know, and that is, you know, he's not going to have that forever. I watch guards all the time. Just be like, I'm done with that. We're not, we're not trying that anymore. But I'm loving it while, while it's happening.
- [17:04]
A
He is so fucking powerful going to the basket that almost no matter what you do, you're going to go under a screen because you don't. You're going to dare me to shoot. You're going to meet me on the other side. He's so fast that he often beats that guy to the spot. And if it's a tie, the tie goes to Stefan Castle. He's just going to overpower you and jump. And I've said this before, he does the thing that Not a lot of guards, not a lot of perimeter players have where you jump simultaneously with him to try to block his shot. And he's still going up when you start coming down. It's, like, uncanny. And you mentioned the passing. He's been the best lob passer on the spurs since he walked in the door. I don't know how he got so good at lobs if he just immediately recognized that. Dude's so tall, I can just throw it anywhere. But they have incredible timing and chemistry on their lob plays. And he's starting to do the manipulative pick and roll thing where he uses his eyes and his head to trick defenders into like, oh, he's going to pass to the roll, man. You come in and sink on the roll, man. He hits the guy in the corner instead, or the other way around. He's just. And you said the most exciting part of a guard's career is that the paint attacking stuff. I just feel like we're seeing that in the sense of every game. Feels like he's discovering something about NBA patterns, NBA defenses, how they work, how to manipulate them, how to exploit them and stuff that he maybe was like, oh, I can do that. I can throw that pass. And defensively, he and Dylan Harper are just huge and competitive and tough. And that game where he guarded Durant and just bodied him up and Durant was like, what. What is this? I don't want any. Like, this is fucking annoying. Aren't these fouls? They're not fouls. What's happening to me, it was like a landmark game. So he was on my list, too. So we have a commonality at all. A plus season for Stefan Castle. All right, fourth starter.
- [18:53]
C
Okay.
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A
VJ he was on my. He was on my last cuts. And so now I will cede the floor to you to talk about VJ Edgecomb. But also, I know that you probably have some Jared McCain feelings to get off your chest.
- [19:06]
C
I do. You know, I don't think that the Sixers fan base is taking this one well. I have to admit that I am. I would almost consider myself at this point a centrist when it comes to the Jared McCain trade. And I'm pretty upset. There is a very vocal online presence that is treating this like we sent Mike Schmidt to the. To the Orioles in 1980 in the middle of the season or something. It is pretty frustrating to watch him so easily slide into the exact role that the Sixers could have used him in on the Thunder. And him hitting big threes in, like, big moments. With Shay right next to him is pretty galling. I understand that, like, you know, there were reasons for getting off of him and that maybe there was. I saw that there was this story about like they were, they were trying to get Kawhi Leonard at the, at the deadline and that would have been part of it. They would have needed the picks. But, man, it is, it has been pretty stomach churning to watch. I don't know if Jerick McCain is going to be a big part of the Thunder playoff rotation or how big that rotation's going to be. Do you think he's going to play like, crunchy big minutes in a playoff series?
- [20:21]
A
I mean, he has shown out to a degree in Oklahoma City already, where I think that's much more on the table than it was before. When the trade happened, I thought, when the trade happened. This is great for now when all of these guys are injured and they're going to load, manage Caruso and load manage Dort and on and on and on. And in the playoffs, I thought, you know, he'll be a guy that, you know, the offense needs a little juice in the second quarter. Throw him in, he'll swing a quarter, he'll swing a game. Crunch time. I don't know. I mean, you got Mitchell coming back, Caruso on, on and on. Now I think it, it'll obviously be more competitive for him to get minutes. He sticks out like a sore thumb in that every other player on the team is like an A, A plus defensive player. And McCain gets out there and the other team is like, all right, we got to hunt him because he's just okay, but just okay on the Thunder is like, is. Is a pigeon for us.
- [21:09]
C
Right?
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A
And he, and he works hard and. But he, he sticks out like a sore thumb in that sense. And so it'll be interesting to see what Dagnal does in real games. But I think he's going to be part of the rotation and it, it would not surprise me if he earns actual real minutes in the, in like fourth quarters of playoff games if they need offense. And that's just going to infuriate six or six. Look like I do think to your point about centrism, at the time of the trade, he had played like what, 55 games in his NBA career, 30 of them this season in which he had been kind of buried, kind of disappointing behind the guy which fans are
- [21:44]
C
using to turn on Nick Nurse now.
- [21:46]
A
Yes, yes. And right. The scrutiny is on the coach, not the front office. Right. This guy was sitting here and we didn't use him. And by the way, now Paul George is suspended and, like, guys are hurt. We could really fucking use Jared McCain.
- [21:57]
C
Yeah. And Maxey's playing 42 minutes a game.
- [21:59]
A
Oh, leads the league in minutes by a lot. He had to play 38 last night against the Jazz in Philadelphia, which is not great. Yeah. And they got what, they got a bunch of seconds for him, too. I mean, it's, it's a fascinating move for the Thunder, who are going to have a lot of tricky financial waters to navigate the past, the next few years, and he helps them, but it just, it, you know, you think I got, you think we, we hit it out of the park with the 16th pick and he's going to be part of our team for a long time and now he's not part of the team.
- [22:29]
C
Yeah, I mean, the mathematics are. I, I, look, this trade might feel much, much differently if Maury hadn't had the. We feel like we sold high on
- [22:38]
A
this player quote, which guy, he can't help himself.
- [22:42]
C
It got really, really, I don't know if I would say manipulated, but like, I think it was robbed of the essence or like what he was sort of meaning. And he was also very complimentary to McCain in that press conference. But he just, that's going to follow him around. Every time that guy hits a three pointer, it's going to be like, oh, it looks like they sold high on this guy. You know what I mean? Like, and in meanwhile, I think it's been an interesting microscope to put Nurse under, because if this guy immediately starts playing for the defending champions, what was he doing in practice that Nurse was like this. He's in and out of the rotation and going to play for the Blue Coats, you know, from, from every other week.
- [23:25]
A
It's going to be interesting. And I forgot to even mention Jalen Williams among the Thunder guys that are coming back like it there, There's a world in which he's the 11th guy and this is no longer a thing. But also, by the way, I forgot to say this during the Brandon Miller section, so I'll just say it now. A couple weeks ago on this pod, I had Rob Mahoney on, and I said something to the effect of, I think this is before Charlotte has won, I think five in a row now. So I think Charlotte is the fifth best team in the Eastern Conference. When you account for, like, actual, if they get in the playoffs, could they make the conference finals and make a real run? And they were like 11th or 10th at that. Probably 10th at that point. They're only ninth now. I think that's like indisputably true. Now. I think they're the fifth.
- [24:08]
C
It's crazy.
- [24:09]
A
I think they're indisputably the fifth best team in the Eastern Conference. They're only three games behind your Sixers in the race for the six seed. And they're just qualitatively like, I think they're better than, I think they're better than Toronto. I think they're the fifth best team in the Eastern Conference. The record will not show it because they got off to such a bad start. And if I were any of these top four teams, any of them, I would be scared to death to play the Hornets in the first round. They're going to probably win, lose that series. Like, the top four teams will all beat the Hornets or should all beat the Hornets. But it's going to be competitive and scary and they're going to be games where, I mean, like they just. To your point, last night the Celtics were like, what is this? What are we supposed to do with this team? Anyway?
- [24:49]
C
That's.
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A
Oh, Vijay. Vj. Yeah. Speaking of my Sixers, one of my last cuts.
- [24:54]
C
One of the reasons why the Sixers maybe have a weight tied to their foot right now is obviously Embiid's got the oblique and VJ hurt his back the other day. He also, his biggest highlight of the week was probably Kung Fu kicking a woman in the front row of, of of the stands. But before that, what a delightful rookie season. Um, what a. Like immediately like put him up on a mural. Like, I will watch Maxi and Edgecomb for hopefully years to come. And the reason why I was so into him, aside from his athleticism and his willingness to make a really athletic play when he sees an opportunity, is the fact that when he is not in the game, when he is not feeling it, when it's not flowing through him, when he is maybe off ball a little bit more, he still finds ways to contribute. Like, he's not a role player in the sense where he's like, I'll stand in the corner and then I will guard my man on the other. He is in and around the ball. He is diving and crashing the offensive boards. He's getting put backs and tap ins or keeping plays alive by like getting second chance rebounds or something like that. And it's just that little extra. It's that little extra 10% that you're just like, oh, that's what that actually is. What changes games is us getting another look at the basket this guy actually ding somebody up and making it uncomfortable for their number one scorer. He's just been such a breath of fresh air in a team that really, really needed it.
- [26:22]
A
He is absolutely ferocious constantly. He is never not ferocious. He's super competitive. And if you look at the guys I picked for my team, that's a common ingredient in at least three of them and if not all of them, but definitely three of them, including Stefan Castle.
- [26:37]
C
Castle, like Castle will do something so wonderful on a basketball court and just look like the guy on the other team just kicked his sister shin. He's just like so pissed and it's just like clearly as like just this competitive fire on a night to night basis. And Vijay has it too. But Vijay is also a lot of fun and you can tell how much the other guys are keyed off of him. I think it honestly like I, you know, Embiid is obviously up and down in terms of his, his physical health, but I feel like guys like VJ have like revived Embiid's. I don't know, like love of the game, frankly.
- [27:13]
A
Yeah. I mean we talked the last time you were on about sort of meeting in the middle between those two styles, the Embiid style and the super speed Demon guard style. I think they've met in the middle about as well as could be hoped for. And they all need each other. Like the team isn't. Is isn't good enough with just the guards in like a replacement level center and Embiid's place and vice versa. The team has been dramatically better with Embiid on the floor despite his physical limitations. All right, last, last starter on the CR Gasol team.
- [27:42]
C
So this one is more weighted towards the beginning of the season, the first half of the season, because this post all star break in the last couple of weeks have been trending in the wrong direction for Derrick Queen. But I will stand up for the multiplicity of play styles in this league and I don't want to see everybody be six, nine, able to shoot and staying out of the lane doing like exactly the same thing. I hate the hegemony and I love, you know, do we ever decide, is it Cajun Jokic? Is it Dairy Queen? Like did we ever give him a nickname?
- [28:16]
A
I don't want to get too deep into nicknames because we just talked about BJ Edgecom and I'm still upset. Um, I, I just, I'm. I'm almost opposed to throwing Jokic around in any nickname. Okay. Discount Jokic diet joke. It's. There's Been a couple of diet joke. It's around the league in the last few years. I sure. I, I want to leave him out to, out to the side. Dairy Queen. We can workshop it.
- [28:36]
C
DQ is good. I like it.
- [28:37]
A
Pretty good.
- [28:39]
C
He has since been benched for DeAndre Jordan. So it's not, it's not looking great with my, my Derrick Queen holdings. But for those brief glorious weeks and months in the beginning part of the season where he was just basically playing YMCA pickup basketball against NBA players and winning, winning individual battles, not necessarily Pelicans games, I just loved it. I love his court vision as a big man and I love his ball handling and he's just such an interesting player to watch because it shouldn't work and it does.
- [29:12]
A
I agree with you. He also has kind of hit the rookie wall a little bit, which is, which is predictable.
- [29:17]
C
This is Edgecomb a little bit too.
- [29:19]
A
A little bit. Um, the Pelicans are, are kind of a sneaky interesting watch right now because they clearly don't know exactly sort of how they want to structure their team. And I talked about this last week with Zion who feels almost like as, as out of place as a 20 to 25 point a game scorer can feel on a team. And then boom, against the Lakers the other night, now they lost. They suddenly start Zion at center two games after starting Zion at small forward next to two centers. And for sure part of this is because they know The Zion Queen 45 combo just can't survive defensively. It's just not, it's not workable. But all of a sudden they're playing zion at the 5. And I thought that game was really interesting for a couple reasons. I'll just. I'm going to nerd out for one minute, please. Zion set 19 ball screens in that game and was just destroying Deandre Ayton in the pick and roll. Deandre Ayton would drop and drop coverage. Zion would catch a pocket pass. Dejante Murray's back, by the way. That's helpful. Yeah. And Zion would just explode by him for layup after layup after layup. That's the most screens he's set in any game this season. It was like point Zion was dead and buried and pick and roll. Zion was like the Zion that was left over on the other side of the floor. Just, just note it. Just note it. It's not, it's not big. It's not huge. There were eight Luka LeBron pick and rolls in that game with LeBron as a screener. That's the most they've had in any game since the trade of the century that brought Luka to la. And I thought Zion actually defended well in that game too. So a couple just random pelicans notes I like watching Derrick Queen. Okay, let's take a quick break and then I'll run through my my starting five and then we'll get a little meaner. The Zach Lowe show is brought to you by FanDuel. FanDuel is putting you in control right from the tip off. That's right, you get to choose your reward. Play it safe, go for it. Feeling bold. That's your move. Whatever your style, your in control no matter how you play. FanDuel's giving you the power to choose your reward and own your game this NBA season. Head to FanDuel.com low to make your pick. Get in the game and play it your way. 21 over or select states or 18 and over in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Opt in Required rewards are not withdrawable. Restrictions apply including bonus and token expiration, leg requirements and max wager amount. See terms@sportsbook.fanduel.com gambling problem call 1-800-gambler, call 1-888-78977-7711 or visit ccpg.org chatincenetic this episode is brought to you by Claude from Anthropic. Picture this. You're still hours into trying to make the perfect trade for your fantasy team, and somehow you're still trying to narrow down your list. Classic Claude gets that. It won't hand you a neat answer, but it works with you. Until you land on one that holds up their research mode. Scours the web so you don't have to Anthropic just committed to not putting ads in Claude so your conversation stays yours. Try Claude for free at Claude AI/low and see why problem solvers choose Claude as their thinking partner. All right, it's time. I'm going to run through my Marcus Soul All Stars. We already got Stefan Castle. So about a month and a half ago I did like a five minute thing on this on Amazon Prime, a TV version of it. And so I'm disqualifying the five guys that I picked for that. They're off to the side. But those guys were just for the record. Donovan, Mitchell, Isaiah Stewart. And as I said, when I picked him I was like this guy is ready to start a fight at any moment. And then, and then, yeah, just came back last night. Amen. Thompson obvious choice. Shaden Sharpe Kind of my NBA white whale. Like I just want Him, I want him to be good because he's so crazy to watch. And then Moussa Diabate just because he's the hardest playing dude in the entire NBA.
- [32:53]
B
Yes.
- [32:54]
A
So those guys are out. I had Castle see who I want to start with. All right. This is a Bill Simmons produced partly podcast, so I will start with the Celtic. Derrick White is just, you know what Derek White is? He's just a fucking awesome basketball player. He's. And he just plays all the time. He's seventh in the league in minutes. He plays every game. He does everything well. He is relentless as a competitor on both ends of the floor, defensively chased down blocks, steals and just, just a super, super duper smart player. Get more aggressive as a score. He's got a nice floater now. Takes ton of audacious threes and just plays to win. He's just a winning player and he's just so goddamn smart. That Hornets game last night, the only Celtics highlight of the whole game was Derek White chasing Brandon Miller around like three consecutive screens on a pick and roll as Brandon Miller was trying to just get away from him and he couldn't really do it. And then he finally went around the screen, started dribbling to the right wing on a pick and roll and Derrick White was trailing him. Except Derrick White read exactly what Brandon Miller was going to do. He peeled out to the shooter on the right wing and the guy on that shooter, I think it was Shireman, peeled in and took Brandon Miller and Brandon Miller was like, what's happening? Why are these guys changing positions? And pass to the shooter. And Derrick White just yoinked it out of the air and went the other way. He sees every opportunity on both ends of the floor. He sees the extra pass, that's going to be two passes away before he even gets the ball. He sees the driving alley that's going to open for him when the ball swings his way before anyone else does. He is maybe like my favorite basketball players, basketball player in the NBA, Derek White. Any comments or should I just keep going?
- [34:35]
C
I also enjoyed him. Last night is the only real like Celtics like highlight of last night's game against the Hornets.
- [34:41]
A
Just an awesome player. I actually nominated him as an all star and then he went into like a three week shooting slump and made me look like an idiot. I think he had a real all star this year. All right, so he's in. I talked about Castle. This is going to be almost too predictable. Did you consider Josh Hart at all?
- [34:57]
C
I didn't. I did not consider Any Knicks, but this is worthwhile. I don't know when you want to talk about the Thunder, but it was very interesting to watch that, that Thunder Knicks game last night. So go ahead with Josh Hart just the same.
- [35:11]
A
You know, when I used to play pickup basketball now and then, I used to like to play fast. I like, I just, it was just more fun to play fast and it was more fun to play other players who wanted to play that way. Josh Hart would just be a delight to play with. He plays like a guy who's A, he wants to win badly, but B is just like, I love basketball. Let's run and pass to each other and cut and like make fun plays. And I'm going to rebound. Yeah, yeah. I'll crash in and get rebounds because it's just fun to do that now. Outwork people. He plays hard every second he's on the floor. Everyone knows about the crazy end to end transition rushes that sometimes end with him falling out of bounds and that kind of hurts the Knicks. Good passer, good passer in any situation. Like good, good. He does a thing in transition where he dribbles really hard to the rim knowing everyone's coming at me and then I know where my trailers are. He's a good passer in the half court. He's also one of the most interesting pivot points in the league for a contending team. And last night's Thunder Knicks game, which we cannot talk about, was an interesting example of that. So the Knicks, every other game are going to face this strategy where the other team puts their center on Josh Hart and puts a wing on Cat to the point for the simple reason of we're going to switch every cat pick and roll so he can't pop for three and we're going to let Josh Hart's guy be our shot blocker who roams around. And on some nights the Knicks have figured that out pretty well. There was a recent game I talked about in regards to that and on other nights it gums them up. And last night was. And it gums them up night. And the Knicks not only did the. The Thunder started two big men and they didn't put either of them on. Karl Anthony Towns Hartenstein guarded Josh Hart and Chet Holmgren guarded a combination of Anobi and Bridges sometimes and Lou Dort guarded Kat. And we're going to do our anti gasol All Stars in a second. Two great candidates for the anti gasolt All Stars. And when both of them are together, it's like a lurch fest just The Frankenstein lurch fest.
- [37:07]
C
But anyway, I wish we could have sent those guys to Battle World from X Men where I would just. It's just the two of them like working their dark arts on one another
- [37:16]
A
and the Knicks couldn't quite find the right combination of sets and plays and screens to suss that defense out and ended up limiting Josh Hart's minutes for the guts of the game and putting Shamet in his place, which is a version of like the Deuce McBride all shooting lineup that a lot of Knicks fans have clamored for. So I think he's interesting in lots of different ways. But obviously the big event of that game was Shea Gilchrist Alexander committing what should have been his third foul on a charge on Jalen Brunson, who always gets the benefit of the doubt on block charge calls. And I guess the two colliding benefits of the doubt ended up going Shay's way. Mike Brown goes bananas because it would have taken Shay out of the game for a long time. Gets his only technical of the season and then afterwards becomes the latest coach in his post game press conference to basically be like, yeah, Shay gets all the calls, you can't touch them. It's really frustrating. And just like Bill and I have been talking about this. It's, it's this, it's this bubbling sensation around the league that like other teams are rooting against the Thunder for like 10, 12 different reasons. Like when a coach says something like that, I get messages from teams around the league being like, oh, kudos to Mike Brown, right? What a crazy night.
- [38:24]
C
I thought that the. There definitely seems to have been a group chat between these guys where it's just like we're going to turn up the heat because it feels like the Thunder on national television a lot right now. Going down the stretch, I feel like there's more attention being paid to this. These big crunch time games that feel like there's so much scrutiny and it's just, it's one thing for the Thunder to get this reputation as not getting any, you know, to, to be have having a really like tight whistle for Shay. I think the flip side of it is the aggression of their defenders on the other end of the floor. So either one would be enough. But the fact that there is this perception that the Thunder have all the, all the leniency in the world to bear hug guys. And it's funny, I know you don't follow the Premier League, but this is really reminding me of what's happening with Arsenal right now in the Premier League. So Arsenal used to be incredibly beautiful. High quality passing possession football club and over the years have basically populated the roster with giants and have decided that what they are going to do is exploit this inefficiency of if we put ten six foot two guys in the penalty box on every set piece on every corner kick, the percentages say we're going to score and they are basically I'm going to get some heat from this. But they are corner kicking their way to a Premier League title right now. They're going to probably win the title and people are losing their minds about it. It's unfair. It's shithouse football. They're cheating. We're not allowed to do this. If you touch Arsenal, they fall on the ground but Arsenal grapples everybody in the box and they. It is not dissimilar from the way that the Thunder went from what a cute story to oh, these guys are absolute cheaters on every aspect of the, of the court. And I think if they just. If it wasn't for the fact that nobody seems to be able to touch Shay but Dort seems to be able to muscle guys off the floor, it might be a different thing. But it definitely feels like there's like a. It's, it's gone out. The email has been sent.
- [40:37]
A
First of all, a great cross sport comparison and I'm interested to watch Arsenal. One of my good buddies, Jimmy Shout Out Jimmy is a huge Arsenal fan.
- [40:45]
C
Jimmy is not going to like my, my characterization of but I say that as a Liverpool fan. So what are you going to do?
- [40:50]
A
He's pretty even keeled and I think he'd be like, you know what, he's probably right. I think you absolutely. This look, this is about a lot of things, right? It's about envy for sure. It's about style of play. Like people just don't think the Thunder are that fun to watch on offense. It's like it's robotic and it's efficiency. The way Shay plays, you get that every once in a while. I talked about this before Christmas with Howard Beck and I even used the word villain about the Thunder. But I think it's about the idea that they are tattling on the Jazz for tanking when they themselves also have tanked in the past. And I have said repeatedly like no one from the. I mean this and I would say it if it were true, no one from the Thunder has called me about Utah and being the Utah police. So there may be calling other people but they're not calling me. So I can't speak to it. But I think more than anything else, it's about their defense. And you just nailed it. They are very quietly. They have the 11th lowest opponent free throw rate in the NBA this year. As fouls have been called more and free throws are going up. It's affected everybody but the Thunder. And it's like last year they fouled a lot and they had a high opponent free throw rate. And that makes sense considering the physicality with which they play with now. It's like the rising tide of fouls have lifted all boats that they're on the same level as everybody else. And I think that really more than Shay, whose free throws are really not out of whack. For a guy who has the ball as much as he does and is as crafty as he is, I think it's about. About their defense. So that's. It's a great call. All right, I got two more guys to get to, I think. Right. I'll just do it fast. Nas Reed, just big jelly. Does it even need to be explained? He had back to back transition baskets like coast to coast baskets against. I don't even remember who they played. It might have been Portland. That were just outrageous for a large person to be able to do them. One of them was a right to left crossover in the lane and lefty flick hook that literally they could have done the Looney Tunes like twinkle toes sound effect as he did it and it would have been fitting. It was so like balletic and artful. And then my last one is Reed Shepherd.
- [43:03]
C
Wow.
- [43:05]
A
Yeah, I just like he. He's a pretty audacious shooter and passer. Like he'll throw these like lefty 30 foot bullets to guys under the rim. No, look, and he's obviously like a great, great, great pull up shooter. The percentages haven't borne it out, but the shots he takes are pretty outrageous in a fun way. And he's just like oxygen for the Rockets offense. Like he's just every. It's like everyone is crammed in a tight room and then someone opens the door to another room and the whole crowd can spread out into two rooms. That's what Reed shepherd feels like to the Rockets offense. Just oxygen. And defensively the dude makes plays like people pick on him, but he blocks shots. He's getting in there for rebounds. He's swiping for steals. So that's my other starting five after my initial starting five on Amazon. And I have a lot of honorable mentions, but no one that I really, really hurt me to lose.
- [43:54]
C
Can I ask you a quick Western Conference vibe check question?
- [43:57]
A
Yeah.
- [43:58]
C
Do you feel like. So do you feel like that first of all that the Rockets have kind of steadied the boat from whatever rocky waters they were on a couple of weeks ago and am I wrong to get be getting excited about this T Wolf surge? Because I feel like this is, this is again, these guys are like rounding into shape right when they need to be rounding into shape and are playing their best ball right when they need to be playing their best ball.
- [44:22]
A
So you're asking the wrong guy about the T Wolves because I've been almost unreasonably high on them all season and I just think Anthony Edwards is just a specimen of basketball scoring greatness and defensive greatness when he locks in. And so I'm not surprised by anything the Wolves are doing. You're not wrong to be excited about them. I think they have the third. They're. They, they play them. It's like them. I put them behind the full strength Nuggets if we ever see them again in a Thunder, but they play both those teams pretty well. I love the Wolves. The Rockets I guess have. Have studied a little bit. Not in a way that makes me more confident than them, than the other teams that we just named. I don't really know why that is. I've watched a lot of the recent games. They've had some good wins. I don't know. They seem to have gotten past the text thread thing. They have.
- [45:12]
C
Good for them. I mean it just seems like the story of their season is going to be a team. A team that was missing a point guard.
- [45:19]
A
Hey look man, I know friend groups where one text gone awry has messed up the friend group forever. So kudos, maturity. Now those friend groups don't like have mandated hangouts 82 times a year. But, but still. Okay. We also chose for fun anti Gasol all Stars and you chose a coach. I think a good Gasol coach. So give me your good. I didn't pick a coach. So give me your coach and then give me your anti all Star.
- [45:44]
C
But it's, it's Missoula. Missoula. Just because a obviously like he is concocting like a phenomenal season out of what most teams would have considered a write off. You know, if you had told me that the Celtics were closer to the Pacers this season, I would have believed it in terms of like what their outlook might have been without Tatum. Now obviously they have Brown and like the way that he has been able to construct this team which to me, has actually been. And don't tell Bill I said this. Slightly more entertaining than in previous iterations of the Celtics to watch. This year's Celtics, and also just on a content level, is reliably. I just have never. I never have any idea about what he's gonna say when he gets asked the most vanilla question. Joe, what'd you see out there? He could say, nothing. I saw nothing. My eyes were closed. Or he could start talking about samurais, you know what I mean? Like, he basically.
- [46:43]
A
Orcas. Orca pods.
- [46:44]
C
Exactly. And I knew that we were in for something special. When he did the infamous coaches versus journalists pickup game at the beginning of the year, I was like, this guy is. Now we're in performance art territory. This is really like, he's got a ring and now he's playing around a little bit, and it's really exciting to see.
- [47:07]
A
Yeah, you don't like. I know Joe decently well, and sometimes I still. I feel like maybe now I don't like, is this an Andy Kaufman kind of thing going on right now? Like, I'm not really, but it is. It is fast. And he is indisputably a great coach. And they're getting Jason Tatum back. And that to me, does nothing more than raise their ceiling.
- [47:27]
C
And I'll say this. Missoula would either be the best podcaster in America. Like, if he had a pod, it would just be absolute must hear 60 minutes every episode.
- [47:38]
B
Or
- [47:40]
C
absolutely the worst. It would either be like, joe, no selling things. And, you know, you're like, hey, Joe, what do you think about this to help tanking? You'd be like, don't care, don't care. Just play. And then the pod would be over after three minutes.
- [47:52]
A
I was gonna say, it could. Could be a three minute pod, or it would.
- [47:56]
C
Well, and if it was a three minute pod, it might be like the short form content that we all crave, and it would be amazing. But he also has in him, like, you can just tell, like, his.
- [48:06]
A
The.
- [48:07]
C
His amount of interests. Did we ever get to the bottom of whether or not he was actually entering judo tournaments under a different name? Was that true?
- [48:14]
A
I don't even know about. This was a thing.
- [48:16]
C
I think this was a story a year or two ago where he was like, what did you do in your off season? And it was like he was going to Florida and entering. Entering martial arts tournaments, but under a fake name. And if that's not true, don't tell me, because I want to believe it.
- [48:31]
A
I mean, I. Now I'm Obsessed with this. I mean, the amount of Missoula stories that are out there is just endless and none of them would. Would surprise me. So he's your coach. I think that's a great choice. If I had to choose a coach and I couldn't choose Joe Missoula for just now we're talking fun style, team play. How does the team play? And I can't choose Missoula. I think, I think I might have to go Mitch Johnson. Just because the spurs are so fun to watch. I don't know. The Pistons are fun to watch, but not that fun. That would be. I don't have a good choice. All right, so now let's get a little. A little not nice anti. Anti Gasol All Stars guys that we hate watch.
- [49:13]
C
We don't have to belabor this because you've spent a lot of time in the last couple episodes. You talked about it with Mo. I'm just like kind of out. I'm watching Luca. I, as a, as a Los Angeles resident. Los Angeles resident. He is on a lot. I flip channels. There's Luca and there's Luca yelling at refs and there's Luka having just all time bad body language. I get it. I know why my buddy Jason Gallagher is such a huge fan. I know why people worship him. I know why he saved the Dallas Mavericks and why, if you were a Lakers fan, you'd be like, oh my God, we got so lucky. 10 more years of relevance with another all time great player. But it's just not for me, man. I just can't watch it. The style of play is not my favorite, but it's also the, the vibe. I just, I just don't like guys screaming at refs all the time.
- [50:07]
A
He was on my long list for all those reasons and I crossed him off because I think it's so much in the discourse now that it's, it's, it's, it's just out there. And also he just has a baseline level of genius as a passer that is still. I can, on the right night, wade through the rest of it to see 15 passes that are going to blow my mind or look simple, but the timing and precision of them is not simple at all. And more than the scoring, more than the fact that he's shooting a Preposterous percentage from 2 point range, mid range, more than the step back threes that on the right night, it's a show. And on the wrong night you're like, can you maybe pass now? That was five. Step back threes and eight possessions. It's the passing that I can't, I can't, I can't quit. And that was your, that was your one guy, right?
- [51:02]
C
Yeah, that's my, my antigus all.
- [51:04]
A
So he was on my list. I ended up picking three because that was, that was my goal. Banchero is on there and it's more an indictment on the team than him personally. Although someone shooting 37% on mid range shots should not be taking nearly as many. Did you see the bank hero, Mosley tete a tete that happened? I didn't. It was after the Detroit game that they, they lost by a lot on Sunday, I think. And Banchero said the following in his post game press conference. Teams a lot of times adjust at halftime and I think that's why we struggle a lot in the second half just because we don't really adjust to their adjustments. Not great. Not great. Last time I remember a player talking about his coach not making any adjustments was Anthony Davis with Darvin Ham. And Darvin Ham was not the coach of the Lakers for much longer.
- [51:56]
C
That's.
- [51:56]
B
Remember that.
- [51:57]
A
And then Jamal Mosley the next day at shoot around or at practice, rather said the one adjustment that Detroit made last night, they just played a little harder. There was no schematic adjustment that they made. This does not seem to be going great for anyone in the franchise. And I've said it before, if they don't salvage this season and I don't think they're going to, I don't know what the changes are going to be. I can, we can just predict like who's under the most pressure, what trades are possible, this and that, but this just ain't working. And that is in. You can try to clean that up and say like Luka and J.J. redick did with like an in game thing like that heat of the moment, I'm more liable to believe JJ when he says like that's just something that happens. We have a good relationship. That is post game you've had a chance to calm down a little bit and you decide to go into a microphone and pretty much throw your coach under the bus. And then the coach the next day gets the microphone in front of him and he's like, no, you just didn't play hard enough.
- [52:50]
C
You guys don't play.
- [52:51]
A
Yeah, not great. I, you know, DeMar DeRozan used to be one of my favorite guys to watch in the NBA. I'm all, I'm, I'm 48, I'm the right age to get Seduced by mid range artistry. When you watch the Kings and I get it, it's not about him. It's the young guys. Let Maxine Maxime Renault. Let Maxime Renault take all the shots he wants. Let Nate Clifford take all the shots he wants. Demar is just like, going through the motions is almost generous. It's just like he's out there jogging and like, oh, I got to shoot this time because, okay, I'll shoot fine. Like, oh, then you look at the box score. It's like 32 minutes, three of five, six points. Like, what? Demar Derosa took five shots in a game.
- [53:35]
C
Is there. Is there buyout potential for Demar?
- [53:38]
A
I think he has a. His contract for next season is very partially guaranteed. So. Yes. And.
- [53:45]
C
And.
- [53:46]
A
Or trade him to a relevant team for a good swan song, by the way. I mean, we all said it as the season was going on, and now he's playing on a team in Cleveland that is playing really, really well. The fact that the Kings had Keone Ellis.
- [53:58]
C
Yes.
- [53:59]
A
Could have extended Keon Ellis and didn't even play him and thought so lowly of him that, hey, we're the worst team in the NBA and you can't even get on the floor for us. Why are 29 other teams calling us all the time about this guy? Don't you realize he can't even play for us? And now he's helping the Cavs, who are playing like the best team in the east for the last three weeks. And had a proof of concept went to me against the Knicks last week. That was a very important game for the Cavs. I've talked about it before. Just preposterous. Should I just read a list of guys who are on my antagonist soul?
- [54:34]
C
Listen.
- [54:37]
A
Okay, well, some of them. I don't. It's just mean. I don't want to. Should I just be mean? I mean, Russ is always on there for me. Jakob Bertl.
- [54:46]
B
Oh, really?
- [54:47]
A
What are you doing here?
- [54:48]
C
What is it? What are you.
- [54:49]
A
Jakob, why are you just never playing? Patrick Williams? Just potential unrealized. Just like your high school friend who was captain of the team, had, you know, good grades and is now pumping gas at the gas station because he couldn't stop drinking. Not that Williams.
- [55:05]
C
The email too early when he's like, you guys coming back for Thanksgiving given beers.
- [55:12]
A
No, I mean dominating Nuric. I put Thanasis on just for fun. Like, can you just sit down, man? Like. Like, you're not the captain.
- [55:21]
B
Just.
- [55:21]
A
Just sit down. Miles Turner. Just. Yeah, that we did All. We did all this for you.
- [55:28]
B
Yeah.
- [55:30]
A
Then I got some, like, eye of the beholder guys. Like, I think Julius Randall's an eye of the beholder guy. Like, some people might hate watching them. Some people might like watching them.
- [55:38]
C
Who's the.
- [55:38]
A
Who.
- [55:38]
B
Who's the. The pro?
- [55:39]
C
Julius Randall guy. Like, give me.
- [55:41]
A
Give me.
- [55:41]
C
What's his mindset when he's watching Julius Randle?
- [55:45]
A
The nights when he has, like, eight assists and you're like, that's what I want to see. Bull. And he also has nights where he just. I mean, talk about NBA bullies, where he just fucking trucks people. And they are legitimately, like, there's no flopping involved. He legitimately just threw you into the basket stanchion and dunked. You know, on the. Similar to Luca. I haven't really enjoyed the Denny Abdia show this year. It's. It's a lot of free throw baiting. Not baiting. It's just. He gets fouled a lot and he's whining all the time to the refs. He's on my list. And then there's, like, I do, like, do you like watching Jalen Brunson? I do, but I think he's an eye of the beholder guy.
- [56:25]
C
I don't love it. I don't. I honestly, like, I have scar tissue from playoff series. And, you know, it's. I think if you go through cheering against Brunson in a playoff series, it's hard to come out on the other side and be like, that man has my respect, you know, like, it's. It's a tough. It's a tough pill to swallow.
- [56:44]
A
Joel Embiid. I have the hope.
- [56:46]
C
I have the beholder guy by the I. And I. And I am willing. I'm willing to. To. To offer that grace to anyone who wants to say that about Joel. It's gotta be tough.
- [56:55]
A
I. The skill level is still so crazy to me that I can. I can stomach the rip through moves and the falling over. And then there's some other guys.
- [57:05]
C
By the way, I'll also be big enough to throw Paul George in there.
- [57:09]
A
He's just. I crossed off the guys who are all basically, like, out. Like, Jordan Poole was on my list. I think Jordan Poole, one of only two or three guys who have gotten called for flopping this year. The NBA kind of forgot that that's a rule. And it got so bad one game that the entire opposing bench was doing the flop thing for, like, the fourth time. And the ref was like, fine, you're flopping. By the way, just for you, I will say that on my honorable mention. Pro Gasola all stars, Kelly Brew Jr. Just playing hard all the time.
- [57:38]
B
Playing hard.
- [57:39]
C
Really, really, really good addition to the Sixers. I'm glad we kept them.
- [57:42]
A
Before I let you go. The other hot controversy this year in the, this week in the NBA was Luke Cornette versus Magic City. Do you have any. Do you have a ruling judgment in the Luke Cornett versus Magic City controversy? The Hawks, for people who don't know, are holding a Magic City night honoring what they describe as the local landmark institution, Magic City, which is also a strip club. And they're going to serve the wings that they're famous for. They're going to have hoodies that the Hawks have branded and made before. They're going to have the club's DJ play the music at the game. TI is going to perform. And Luke Cornette wrote a statement objecting to this and saying that the NBA should strive to esteem women. And this is the opposite of that. And it sparked a lot of countrymond Green has weighed in. Al Horford has weighed in. What does Chris Ryan think of this?
- [58:30]
C
Well, first of all, I want to say shout out to Jamie Gertz, star of Lost Boys and Twister, who is apparently a huge proponent of this Magic City honorarium. I spent some time on Luke Cornett's blog this morning, which I had not done. So first of all, shout out to Luke Cornett for staying on Medium, the ringer, originally published on Medium. You can still do highlights. I think it's kind of fun that, like, there's a guy out there who's like, I'm gonna write a blog post every six months and just kind of let people know how I'm feeling. If you go back and read other Luke Cornett missives, he is a very spiritually guided person. The, his anti Magic City stance is pretty in line with his.
- [59:11]
A
You went deep. You went deep.
- [59:12]
C
Poor religious beliefs. And if you look at it in that context, it's not that surprising. I, I did really enjoy the anecdote. I believe I heard about Cornet, like, blogging in the locker room after the game and like, getting, getting in under the deadline and posting. Yeah, I, I'm, I'm, I, I guess I'm broadly pro Magic City as a, a guy who supports small businesses, you know, but, but I, you know, I, I think that this is one where it's a slow Newsweek somehow, even though we've got an armed conflict going on in the Middle east that we're talking
- [59:48]
B
About Luke Cornett this much.
- [59:52]
A
Yeah, True. Fair. And I hate to break it to Luke Cornett. I checked in with the Hawks shortly before this podcast did. Magic City Night is on course to occur on March 16th. There are no. There. There is no going back, apparently, for Magic City Night, despite the Luke Cornett led.
- [60:07]
C
I would imagine they were like, luke Cornett, thank you for the publicity.
- [60:11]
A
And. And I. The person I was talking with, the Hawks was like, what? Kind of like, like what? Trying to suss out why I was asking whether it was still going on and why I was like, what. What is your interest in this? And I texted back, I was like, I just think Luke Cornette versus Magic City is objectively a funny thing to talk about.
- [60:27]
C
I wish it was a Supreme Court case. Yeah,
- [60:31]
A
it's a basketball Supreme Court. What's the. We're having a tournament, right, to decide which is your last rewatchable.
- [60:37]
C
This is exciting because, like in while doing the Sicario Pod, we were finishing it up. We were talking about what should be the fifth movie. I think we've got four of them already planned. And we had so many ideas that Bill was like, march Madness, let's make a bracket. And it was like watching Bill's like Birdmester Mind Activate, where it's like, we're gonna do an 80s. An 80s region, an action region. And it was just really fun. So that's on the rewatchables Instagram. You can go vote. I think Goonies. Goonies might be like the runaway champ, but there's some nice guys fans out there, some Sorcerer fans out there. I'm happy to do anything.
- [61:17]
A
Nice guys is gosling Russell Crowe detectives. Super, super fun movie. Yeah, super fun movie.
- [61:24]
C
What's up with your. What's up with your.
- [61:26]
A
Your what?
- [61:27]
C
Catching up with movies while walking things.
- [61:29]
A
So peloton movies. Although, because I've decided I might. I. I've decided a. There's just a lot of holes in my movie moviedom and I like movies. I don't have a lot of free time. I used to use my Peloton time to listen to NBA podcasts because I learned that way. And I decided it's healthier for my brain to set the NBA aside for a little bit and catch up. It's not an ideal way to watch movies in like 45 minute chunks. Not a great way to watch movies, I realize, but what else am I going to do? So here are some that I have done. I did Zodiac in conjunction with you guys. I had seen Zodiac in the theater and loved It. But I had not rewatched it. I did that. I just did the Trial of the Chicago 7, which is relatively new. Fargo, which I know is near and dear to your heart. I did not rewatch. But I bring that up because what's the bald guy's name is John Carroll Lynch, I think who's the commonality between all of these movies? I hope that guy has like a billion dollars. Everything that he's in, he's absolutely incredible. And I want him to be the wealthiest like character actor or whatever.
- [62:28]
C
He's just in a movie earlier this year called Last year called Sorry Baby. He's awesome.
- [62:34]
A
And yeah, he's John. John Carroll Lynch. I think I'm getting his name right. You're awesome. You're like my favorite actor. Now let's. I did a complete unknown, the Bob Dylan movie. I did Dune. I got to Dune to. Now should I read Dune? It made me want to read Dune.
- [62:50]
C
I haven't read Dune. I think that it. Are you as a fantasy sci fi big book.
- [62:57]
A
Like I can be with limits. Like I'm never going to read Game of Thrones and I don't quite understand. I just. It seems like too much.
- [63:05]
B
Okay.
- [63:06]
C
Dune. I would probably. I would probably wait for the third one to come out this year and then decide if you want to continue because it gets pretty weird after the second one. It starts to get pretty strange.
- [63:17]
A
Yeah. A movie I had never seen before. The Conversation with Gene Hackman was recommended.
- [63:24]
C
Language now, brother.
- [63:25]
A
Come on. Yeah, I tried the RIP This Netflix, Matt Damon, Ben Affleck thing.
- [63:31]
C
Not a fan. Okay.
- [63:32]
A
No, just like. I just feel like I've seen. How many of this movie can I see of potentially dirty cops with a
- [63:38]
C
plot twist, Zodiac and the Conversation. Like you're in a little bit of a. A 70s conspiracy thriller zone.
- [63:46]
A
That's a good zone for me.
- [63:48]
C
Have you done all the President's Men?
- [63:50]
A
I have many times.
- [63:52]
C
Did you ever do the Parallax View with Warren Beatty?
- [63:55]
A
No.
- [63:55]
C
It's a good one. Okay.
- [63:57]
A
That's a good one.
- [63:58]
C
Same director as all the President's Men.
- [63:59]
A
And this one. You're gonna be shocked that I have not seen this as a media person and I finally saw it. Broadcast News.
- [64:05]
C
Oh, yeah. Did you really?
- [64:07]
A
Yeah. Really good time.
- [64:08]
C
Do you find that the tone of the film affects your workout?
- [64:14]
A
No, I'm just. I'm just a mediocre. It's just mediocre across the board. There are some times where I have to pay more attention and so I probably slow down on the bike. Cause I'm super into a scene and I wanna pay attention. So it's probably not. It's not a good way to watch movies. I get that. Cinema, the cinema. People will be like, no, you're supposed to sit in a theater for the entire two and a half hours. I get it. I should. And now I am doing, in honor of CR Month, I'm rewatching Sicario, which is even better than I remembered.
- [64:40]
B
Yes.
- [64:41]
C
Sicario has just only like, grown in my estimation over the years. Yeah, it was really awesome to do that pod to. To be able to get into it with Boneshawn.
- [64:49]
A
All right, cr, you got a lot of stuff to do. Thanks for lending us some time and
- [64:53]
C
thanks so much for having me, man. Good.
- [64:55]
A
Good luck to your Sixers and bad luck to your Phillies. This episode of the Zach Lowe show is brought to you by State Farm. Life's better when you've got the right help. Think of that perfect pass that sets everything up. Smooth, effortless, just what your team needed. That's the kind of assist State Farm offers. Whether it's online or in person. State Farm's your teammate when you need help making your next play. State Farm with the assist. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state. This episode is brought to you by Lincoln. Whether you're watching highlights while parked or heading out for a Drive, the 2026 Lincoln Nautilus Hybrid keeps you connected with smart tech that helps tie your on screen and off screen worlds together. So help turn every drive into an opportunity for discovery with a 2026 Lincoln Nautilus Hybrid. Learn more at lincoln.com available. Connectivity, features and functionality vary by model. Package pricing, trials and term lengths vary by model. Video streaming and games are only available while parked. All right, let's bring in one of my favorite people in the NBA to talk about one of my NBA homes away from home. A team I haven't talked about so much this year, at least in a deep dive sense, because they entered the year as the weirdest team in the NBA to me, I've spent, I don't know, five months trying to figure them out. They're still kind of weird. They're clearly good. They're fifth in the East. They are your and my Toronto Raptors. And the one and only Jack Armstrong, TSN legend is in the house. How you doing, sir?
- [66:21]
B
Jack, I'm great, buddy. Thanks for having me on. Excited to chat a little Raptors with you.
- [66:26]
A
Can you just give me a hello? Just, just, just give me one hello.
- [66:30]
B
Here we go, hello. Yes.
- [66:34]
A
One of the. When I, I, I say this with full love. There are people in life that you may only see two, three, four times a year. You may only see them for five minutes at a time. In those times, they just make you feel good about yourself, about life, about what you've done, what you're doing. And Jack Armstrong is one of those people. So it's wonderful to have you on.
- [66:54]
B
Thank you so much. The checks in the mail, that's good. I like that.
- [66:57]
A
There you go. How many years you're like, you're not year one Raptors, but you're close, right?
- [67:03]
B
I'm in my 28th year as a broadcaster for the Raptors. My first game was Vince Carter's first game in Boston. And the guy on the other team making his debut was Paul Pierce. So two hall of Famers, and I actually coached against Paul Pierce when I was the head coach at Niagara. We played Kansas at Allen Fieldhouse. Needless to say, we got our ass kicked, but it was pretty cool to watch those two guys start their career. And obviously being with the Raptors that first year with Vince, the Raptors, the first three years, had a tough time as a franchise, but he honestly put Toronto on the map. It was literally like traveling with, you know, the Beatles or Elvis or whatever, whatever way you want to describe it. It got to a point like when he won the dunk dunk contest. And those first few years, it just absolutely took off. And it was so, so I'm very fortunate that I kind of hitched onto that wagon. We were kind of a startup company at that point, and so I hitched on at the right time. And here I am 28 years later and I love it. I still enjoy it every day. It's a joy.
- [68:19]
A
Jack and Matt Devlin on Play by Play, one of the iconic broadcast duos in the league. They play off of each other very well. They make me laugh. They go on tangents. It's all a delight. The Raptors. Jack Armstrong, you were there. I was there. It's been seven years almost since the Toronto Raptors won their first NBA title, their only NBA title, the last pre Covid NBA title. Hard to believe about that. And it has been a, would you say a wayward, sometimes rocky, sometimes unpredictable journey in those last seven years.
- [68:51]
B
Yeah, I mean, considering the fact they have made the playoffs the last three years and four the last five years. And they were the, they were the ones most affected by the COVID crisis because they had to relocate to tamp and everyone else was able to at least play in their home venue. So I think things kind of got thrown out of whack and and you know, you look at that team in 20, 19, 20, the year after the NBA title, they had the third best record in the NBA. When the league shut down, they were fabulous. And that's without Kawhi Leonard and Danny Green and Marcus Sowell who was another year older and kind of really starting to show the effects. But that team had such incredible chemistry. I really felt if Covid didn't happen, I thought that team, even without Ray Kawhi Leonard could have gotten back to the NBA Finals. I don't know if they were good enough to win it, but they could have maybe gotten back and I think with Kawhi they would have been back in the finals and theoretically could have won it again. So it was so unfortunate that things shut down and from that point on it became a really difficult journey for the franchise. I mean two years later they made the playoffs, won 48 games and lost to the Sixers and six. But beyond that it's been a tough road.
- [70:17]
A
So that 2020 team, the year after team, is one of my all time favorite sort of sub finals NBA teams. I thought they played a beautiful brand of basketball. They all lifted each other up. They were greater than the sum of their parts. And they really responded from what should have been a gut punch free agent departure by playing beautiful, inspired basketball. And like objectively, absolutely, they could have made the finals. They lost in the second round to Boston in seven games. That's the series where OG Anunoby hits that crazy shot at the buzzer to keep them alive. What was that? Game three, I think to keep them alive in the series. And Boston then loses to Miami, who did everyone the favor of eliminating the number one seed, Milwaukee in the first round. They could have absolutely made the Finals. It's also the only Raptors team in these seven years that has won a playoff series. That was their one playoff series win over Brooklyn, I think. And I'm just going to read you some of the things that have happened to Toronto to some of the moves made, not made, and just sort of illustrating how crazy this has been. So the gradual breakup of that team. I'm going to be out of order on some of these, but just bear with me. Kyle Lowry gets traded for precious Achua and Goran Dragic. Fred Van Vliet walks in free agency. They didn't have great trade offers for him. I didn't really mind them kind of running out the string with Fred Van Vliet arguably waited a beat too long to trade. Both Pascal Siakam and OG Anunoby got okay returns from both of them. And in both of those trades kind of aimed at. Well in the end. And Obi trade clearly aimed at like we want the middle ground build kind of players, slightly younger, slightly cheaper, not dramatically so in either case. But Emmanuel Quickley, who I think on balance has been a little worse than they expected when they got him, and RJ Barrett, who I think on balance has been probably a little better than expected when they got him. Siakam. They trade for a Bruce Brown at a bunch of picks that in a roundabout way kind of becomes Brandon Ingram, who they then pay right away. A big extension that is both big and short. He's lived up to it, but it's got a player option coming up pretty soon. There is the controversial Jakob Bertle trade where they go semi all in on a 500 middling team and it costs them the number eight pick in the draft the next year, which is Rob Dillingham. And then they extend PURDL last summer on a big money contract extension, which Mr. Jack Armstrong. I called the most inexplicable move of the off season when I was giving out my off season awards. The draft not been super kind to them since the Tampa tank for Scotty Barnes, which was a great, inspired pick. They picked Scotty Barnes over Jalen Suggs. And as as much as the Raptors like to talk about sort of building up from the middle, which is what they've been trying to do, when you look at their win totals from the last five years, it really all started with, all right, this Tampa thing. This is a lost season for us. We're going to use it to rebuild. We had some injuries and they get Scotty Barnes out of it. But Grady Dick is currently out of the rotation. The Malachi Flynn pick didn't work out. Jacoby Walters. All right. Mobile is all right. I think Murray Boyles has a chance and if he just would, he's. Do you notice, does it drive you crazy, Jack, that he'll get the ball under the rim and sometimes like not even look at the rim.
- [73:34]
B
I say that all the time. Frank. Yes. The thing I love about him is he's so selfless. He thinks pass first and I think he's just trying to fit in with his teammates. And I hope as he gets a little older, he gets a little more selfish, a little more greedy when the ball gets to him in the post. But he is a fabulous passer out of there. So I do think that that'll come. But I think he's got a chance to be a plus defender. I think he already is one.
- [74:06]
A
Very much so.
- [74:06]
B
I think he can guard multiple positions. He's got great strength. He's got tremendous lateral quickness. He covers a lot of ground. And I tell you what, when you put him and Scotty Barnes on the floor, this switchability and range of coverage is. Is. Is as good as it gets. I would. I would say two names that I want to just mention to you.
- [74:28]
A
I. I know one of them for sure. I know one of them for sure is going to be Jamal Shedding.
- [74:32]
B
Well, no, I'm actually. You talk about the moves they made. One that you missed was Norm Powell,
- [74:39]
A
Gary Trent Jr. That's on my list. I was going to bring that one up. People, forget about that one. Go ahead.
- [74:44]
B
Norm Powell. I love Norm Powell and I thought he did a great job year in, year out, growing as a player. He's a gym rat. And when they made the move to get a little younger with Gary Trent, I think sometimes you out think yourself and you start putting the numbers in and the salaries and ages and upside and all these things, and you don't appreciate what you have there. What do they say? You can't be a prophet in your own village. Right. And I think sometimes you take the people that are there for granted. And I think Norm Powell was one of those people. And then the second name you mentioned, Jacoby Walter, I think he has a chance to be a little better than you said. He's got to get stronger, though. I think he shoots the three pretty good. I think he covers well. We had a game in Oklahoma City back in January. I thought he did a fabulous job guarding Shake Iljus Alexander, who obviously is a great, great player. So he showed me a lot. And he's a little tougher than he looks. He's just got to get strong. He has a really difficult time with physicality, playing through physicality. But I think as he gets stronger and I think he's got a chance to be pretty good. But the Norm Powell one, I know you had mentioned it, but the Norm Powell one to me is very subtle. But, you know, you look at where Gary Trent is right now from Milwaukee, and he doesn't even play. And Gary was a decent player for the Raptors. But nonetheless, I think when you look at what Norm has become and what Norm was at the time, that was a tough one.
- [76:31]
A
Yeah. That was also money. Right. I think they were afraid that his, his next contract was going to be much bigger than Gary's. And sometimes you make decisions for that and as is they're basically at the tax the next, the next two seasons. And by the way, when I go through the draft picks like it's so easy to do this. Like Malachi Flynn was what, 29. Grady Dick was 13 and you can go nitpick. Loa Keonte George was couple picks after Grady Dick, but like so was Kobe Buffkin. Like above and below all of these guys you can find good players and guys who kind of washed out and did nothing. So it's, it's, you can't just bring up the, the good what ifs. You got to bring up the bad what ifs as well. And Murray Boyles will be an interesting one because there are some really good players. Cedric Cowards right behind him. Derek Queens right behind him. The Carter Bryant kid in San Antonio has a chance to be a 3 and D monster. But I like CMB. The whole point of this is it's just been sometimes you can tell what the Raptors are aiming for. Sometimes it's a little confusing what the Raptors are aiming for. But either way they have aimed and they have produced a team that is nine games over. 500 solidly number five in the East. And just sort of, I just kind of still don't really know what this team is particularly offensively. When I watch them I focus mostly on the offense because their defense to me is legit. They're long, they're rangy, they play super hard, they close out like maniacs. I think I looked up some stat where their opponents half court possessions are the longest in the NBA because they just make, you make so many passes and so many drives. Purdle is back. His rim protection hasn't. Nothing about him has been the same with all these back injuries. But you know, you hope that his rim protection sort of steadies that part of their defense. Their defense to me is like, like I don't worry too much about it. It's pretty solid offensively. I got to give Darko Rakovic credit and that's like another thing that happened in all of this time. They moved on from Nick Nurse and they moved on from Masayu Jiri like franchise icons. And Darko has made the most out of a strange brew of offensive players whose skill sets don't really on paper fit all that well. They are only 16th in offense. That's actually a maybe a hair better than I thought they were going to be. But they, they just find ways to squeeze out points. So teach us what are they doing that works on offense? Because on paper, they don't have a lot of shooting, they don't have a lot of threes. They have guys like rj, Ingram, Barnes all quote unquote need the ball. So does Emanuel Quickley, like, how have they made and their screen setting sort of rock in the middle of it. Purdle has missed most of the season. So how have they made this work? Coach, I'm calling you coach. It's called you coach. You're still coach. Once a coach, always a coach.
- [79:12]
B
A few things. First of all, turnover margin is a huge factor for them. They have to, they have to win that. They have to create pace. They have to create man advantage opportunities in transition. They got to get out on the break. They got to, you know, beat you by 10, 12, 14 points in terms of fast break points. They must get opportunities before you set your defense. And I think to your point about their defense, I think scheme wise, I think they've done as good a job as you possibly can with the personnel that they have. And they have a few guys that definitely are not plus defenders that aren't even neutral, defenders that they've tried to hide and scramble and gamble and they're active and they find a way. So that's helped their offense. It's propped it up. But here's the most important thing about playoff basketball. As you know, the game slows down and you can look at certain numbers and say, well, it doesn't. But the possessions that really matter, when push comes to shove, you're going five on six, man. You're going a lot of times against the shot clock. That's the sixth defender and you're going deep into the clock. And now can you grind out something in a half court setting against a set defense that knows what you're running as well as what you're as well as you do. And I think that's where their problems are at right now. You look at how they played Tuesday night against the Knicks, you look at their games against top 10 competition, there's
- [80:48]
A
the thing, you probably know the record off the top of your head. This is big.
- [80:52]
B
I think it's 4 and 14, if I'm not mistaken.
- [80:55]
A
Big picture, like zooming way out and we'll go back to this. But big picture, you're hitting on the most important thing, which is like, this is a good team. I'm not sure if even if this core stays together and grows together for two Years after this, I'm not sure I really see the roadmap to a great team with this group. And it's because I just don't know what. What unlocks a really, truly good offense and. And their record against the best teams and even their under.500 against teams above.500. Like, it just. Something just is a little bit missing. And I don't really see the easy pathway other than they have all their picks. They have everything to trade. They'd get in on Giannis, maybe they'd get. They were. You know, they would. They were a team to monitor for sure. And they'll be a team to monitor for that player, other players in the future. But. But it's a talk about the record, the latest one being the Knicks, and they play the Wolves tonight against. What's going on in those games?
- [81:57]
B
Well, Zach, a few things. They play the Wolves tonight and Miami and Orlando have easier games tonight. Let's say Toronto loses and those other two win. Suddenly things get really interesting. Five through eight in the conference, and now you look at what Charlotte's doing and even Atlanta starting to play a
- [82:17]
A
little bit better than. I looked this up today just to prepare for this. And I'll let you go all the. So there's these fancy projection systems that slot teams into their most likely seeds. Most of them have Toronto about 40% chance to be the fifth seed, 20 to 25% chance to be the sixth seed. So there's and like a tiny percent chance to be the fourth seed. So that leaves like 25, 30% of what you're talking about. Like, you. They gotta, like, they got to lock in because the play in is looming there as a realistic thing, and you're
- [82:51]
B
hitting the danger zone. Correct. And that's my point. And now you have another game on the road tonight. The Raptors have been a much better team on the road. They're 19 and 10 on the road. They're 500 at home, which is really odd. So maybe they'll help them tonight. But the issue is when. And look, I've always done this my whole coaching and now broadcast, I always evaluate how are you against the top four teams in each conference, Even the top eight? If you're not a playoff team, how'd you do against the top eight? And in Toronto's case, as a five seed, you go, okay, you know, I think they're the 11th best team in the league. So you look at the 10 teams north of you and how do you stack up? What are you doing? And the thing that Jumps off the page at me. To your point is from a roster perspective, they have some challenges. When the game slows down, when the game is at a nice pace. They're fine. They're fine. And this coaching staff, coach, dark, owner staff have done a really good job trying to play to those positives and camouflage the weaknesses. But good teams, good competition, expose you. They make you play the way they want to play. They dictate terms and that's playoff basketball. And that what comes down to is now you got to play 5 on 5, your best stuff against your best stuff and the game's going to be slowed down and the other team's going to be telling you where to go. When you're running your own plays, that's how well they know you and do you play with force and I think beyond like guys slotted in and maybe not great fits this team in the half court plays on its heels rather than on its toes. They don't play with enough force. I think a guy like Emmanuel Quickley, at times he's more of a combo than a pure one scoring mind. A point guard. He has played really well in the last two months for the Raptors. He had a tough start. He's more of a combo combo. But when you get up under him and really get into the ball, you know, who are the other people that now can counter? I think Scotty Barnes probably has the best playmaking chops within that group. You can run a lot of mid screen and roll actions through Portal, even Kyle Murray, Boyles. But Brandon Ingram's an outstanding mid, mid, mid post type of player. Get it? He can get his own and bail you out in the back end of the shot clock. RJ Barrett has been, he's played really well early. He's. He struggled a little bit of late. He had pretty good game Tuesday night against the Knicks, but he struggled since coming back from injury. So some of the fits are a little wonky and kind of how do they generate offense? How do they get into offense and you know, beyond bi at the back end of the shot clock, where are you running your stuff to and where are you getting easy shots against Detroit who fouls you on every play? Where are you getting shots against the Knicks and Boston who are in your, you know what. So that is the next step for them. Some of that's schematic, some of that's personnel wise. But I think ultimately I like what Bobby Webster did at the trade deadline and that was he let it breathe, let it marinate. And to me I think he knows exactly what you've said, that this roster maybe isn't necessarily as fluid and as tight, chemistry wise. I mean, I think the chemistry is great. I mean, the coaching staff and the players, they're a great group of guys. You let it breathe, you let it play out. You find out what you like and you find out what you don't like. The thing I've always learned is don't rush and build on a foundation that maybe isn't the right foundation. So I think if you tried to do a lot, this trade deadline on a foundation that maybe you're not sold on would be rushing into something that maybe it ends up making it worse. I think when you get through this playoff process, these final 21 games, and you find out who you play in the playoffs and how you play, then and only then, now you have an opportunity to say, okay, I have all my picks. I can do some things, some I can't. All right, who's here? Who do I throw overboard? And, I mean, ultimately that's the decision that they're going to have to make. But I'd rather you make that decision when you truly know what you got. I think you know a lot of good things, like Scotty Barnes has taken the next step this year. You got a lot of nice pieces there, but in other ways they're just pieces. And now you got to make it work. What's the old line? Are you going to play your five best or your best five? And I still think they haven't come to that connection yet, that road where it all meets. And I think they're working through that right now. And to me, personally, if you're an executive, I think this is the great thing that it's happening because you are getting exposed to what you're good at and what you're not good at. And you have greater clarity when you sit around the room and you knock it around. And to me, I think that's gonna help them going forward.
- [88:19]
A
All right, to some of your earlier points. Fourth, enforcing turnovers. First in transition frequency, AKA the number of possessions that they get in transition, which is a must for them given their spacing issues, their shooting issues. And honestly, like, I think they've squeezed a lot out of parts that don't make super duper good sense together. And a lot of it is just like the interchangeability of those parts. So Quickley will be as much of a ball screener as he is a ball handler. And they'll switch up. They use the corners very well, like they'll put Ingram in the corner and Scotty in the corner and they'll run plays up from the corners. They have a lot of off ball stuff and they just mix and match and make the best of it and make it work and, and all that. But it's still kind of clunky. They still have some clunky, a lot of clunky possessions. And I think, you know, the Scotty Ingram thing is so interesting. They also stagger them a lot so that each one will play with four bench guys because they know they have overlapping skill sets. The Scotty Ingram thing is so interesting. Ingram, I think from their perspective was almost like a free shot at. Okay, if Scotty is not a sort of traditional number one ball handler scorer, but he does all these other things, playmaking defense. I think he has a great first team all defense case this year. You know, posting up mismatches, all that. He fills in all the gaps on offense. So we need something like a go to score. This is a free shot at somebody who may not be like a, like a great go to score, but he's, you know, borderline all star. Let's take a shot at it and see how that just Scotty with that kind of player works. And I'm going to read you some stats I looked up on the tracking data that are super interesting to me. Scotty Barnes this season, Jack, he is running. Let me see if I can find it. Nine pick and rolls per 100 possessions as the ball handler. Nine. Last year that number was 20. So they clearly have taken a lot of the shot creation duties. Traditional number one alpha kind of scoring duties out of his hands. His screening as the ball screener is up pretty significantly. So they've kind of switched his role in a way that kind of just says like you may not be that guy in terms of a traditional, like, hey, yeah, we're going to hand the whole offense. You know, you get it in other ways, you get it in transition, you get it in the post. But I just thought that number was very stark. His efficiency on pick and rolls is not very good, but that's fine. And you saw even against the Knicks, like when they have him and Mamu is at the 5, they'll put centers on Scotty Barnes and just go under screens against him and dare him to shoot jumpers. Like that's still a thing. That's kind of happening too. And this is not a slight on Scotty Barnes. He's a really interesting player, but they have changed his role a lot with quickly and with Ingram and even Barrett is sort of always the forgotten man. I kind of like RJ Barrett. He's like, yeah, he hasn't been the same since the injury, but he's like one of those connector pieces that's just coming off a handoff, making the next pass, setting a screen here and there, connecting offensive.
- [91:15]
B
He knows how to play. He's a ball player. You know, he's a guy. You go in the schoolyard and you say, I want that guy on my team. All the numbers might not add up and you know, there are holes that are there, there are areas he could be better in, but nonetheless, his team wins. You know, he's that guy that's on the floor like he's going to make enough plays and he knows what the plays are that need to be made. So I think his awareness level, he's queued in per play on what has to happen. He obviously he has his challenges sometimes defensively, but to me I agree. I think there are times again that, you know, you look at him and statistically there are times you look and you say, ah, you know this, that's missing, that's missing, that's missing. And then when you watch him play to your point, there's a lot of good things he does on the floor. His floor game makes sense.
- [92:14]
A
Yeah, he's always cast as like, oh, the guy they got to throw into a trade to make the salaries work. And like the other guy in the quickly trade, I'm like, you're like fine. Quickly has been, like you said, very good the last two months. I've always been a fan of his. I think he's an interesting, creative player who can do a lot of different things on offense. His decision making, he'll just have five minute stretches where his decision making goes haywire. Like he just runs up and takes the 30 foot three in transition. You're like, what was that? Like what was that, that pass you just tried to make from under the hoop. But I, you know, look, his contract is, is pretty hefty and I think has neutral to negative value probably right now. Quicklies. But the just the zooming out thing is like the way they've run their offense this year at least suggests to me that they, they have decided or they envision Scotty as sort of a jack of all trades rather than a traditional number one option and are searching for something like a more traditional number one option. And I think it's not controversial to say that if you actually want to become a great team, Scotty has To evolve into a little bit more of a reliable score passer, traditional number one option type. He's never going to be that the way like the super duper stars are like a Tatum or a Luka. Pick your different variety of that kind of player, but a little bit more of that. And if he doesn't evolve that way, then they've got to get someone a little bit more like that who's just better than Brandon Ingram. Like, Brandon Ingram is a very good player. But I don't think. But. So that's the mystery to me. Like, I think. I don't know, man. I look at this team and I'm like, I'm just not sure how much better these guys can really, really get. Particularly since I don't look at any of the. I like Jacoby Walter, but I don't see any of the him or Grady Dick or Shed's a great backup point guard. I don't see like big leap, huge leaps coming from those guys. Murray Boyles is a bit of a wild guard, so that's just my. It's just. It's just a confusing brew. Am I too pessimistic?
- [94:06]
B
No. I think Scotty right now is a 1B and he's not at a 1A level yet. I think his defense and rebounding on nights that he's really dialed in is one A plus.
- [94:19]
A
Absolutely. First team, all defense candidate for sure.
- [94:21]
B
Absolutely. The offensive stuff has to. I think some of that has to do. Like, I don't know if he'll ever be a great, great shooter. He had a terrific start to the season shooting the three and now it's gone the other way again and you have hurdle in the lineup, you know, obviously when he's healthy and you don't have a ton of great shooting. So for a guy like Scotty Barnes to maybe truly be that next level guy. Some of his spacing too, where, you know, when you have more space to operate. He's a tough cover because he's got great skills and size and you know, so the guy that's really impacting their development. You mentioned Grady Dick and look, I watch Grady Dick sometimes people chase him off the line and like he's very comfortable putting it to the deck and attacking the basketball. I think right now I think he's more comfortable being that. I think when he was drafted, I think they thought J.J. redick, Kyle Korver, yada, yada, yada. He has gotten a ton of open shots and not made them, you know.
- [95:35]
A
And the reality, that's why Jameson battles getting minutes now and he's not, you
- [95:40]
B
know, and that's the reality of the business. You're paid to make open shots and to me, you know, back end of the shot, clock the ball. You know, if, if he had made that, he hasn't yet and I hope he does. He's a great kid. He works his tail off and he does, he does the things they want him to do. He's trying to guard. That's what they need. This offense needs a guy that the ball can swing to the second side and now drill a shot and it opens things up a little bit and can they play through physicality. And to me, I think that's where if I'm Bobby Webster, I'm just taking it all in and then I start to make my moves in the springtime in terms of what you want to do in July 1st and all that kind of stuff, to me, I think that is the truth. I think they're taking it to where they better. Honestly, Zach, nine games over, 521 to play. Where do I sign up? All right, I'm happy like as a guy who's been here 28 years and watched all the ups and downs of the Raptors, I'm very pleased with what they've done and I think they've gotten as much as they can out of this group and I hope in the last 21 games they can find another notch. But I personally think the last notch for this group, that if they're going to win some games in the playoffs, if they're going to be the fifth or sixth seed, they have got to get better in their half court offense when the chips are down and you've got guys holding you and beating you up and they're letting them play because we know that happens. You know, you play the Celtics, they're going to be. They're in you and too bad, you better figure it out. I'll tell you what, Raptors this year when they played Charlotte, they struggled against them. I mean, Charlotte, you know, Coach Lee worked as a Celtic assistant. Done a great job with those guys. Those dudes get into you, man, and you gotta be able to run your stuff through all that. And to me, that's ultimately what it's all about. These final 21 games and postseason, can they figure that out? I work for a guy when I was an assistant at Fordham, guy named Tom Penders is in the College Basketball hall of Fame University.
- [98:04]
A
A guy named Tom.
- [98:06]
B
He's a great, he was a great coach. One of My mentors, he used to talk all the time about offensive toughness in the final five minutes of a game, you know, and the game slows down. Are we going to be able to generate a high percentage shot, you know, and how against a defense that's into you? And he used to do some really cool. We'd go three on four in practice, four and five in practice, five on six. It's like a quarterback and you're sending not only one or two more guys in your line can protect and you know, you're trying to call out coverage and who's blocking schemes and all that. And you know, can you, can you make decisions, rapid fire decisions? You know, I play off. Basketball isn't chess, it's turbo chess and it's a next level. And when the next level happens and it's in confined space, how do you do it? And to me, you got to have a guy that can bring to the ball and now the ball's got to get out of there quick and you got to find a guy on the second side or even a third side and you got to make a shot. But the other challenge I think for the Raptors is they don't break the defense down enough off the bounce. You know, when you have that water bug point guard who can get into the heart of the defense and bring two or three guys to the ball. And now bang, bang, bang, now things are happening and again, that's, that's another element. Like Quickley is very capable, but does he hit that paint? Does he hit the rim? Is he getting deep? Is he just winning his personal matchup and just destroying his opponent off the bounce and shed? Right now you can go under that ball screen on him. He's not a consistent three point shooter. So where are you getting guys going downhill, winning their matchup to create that stuff? Therefore, a lot of times you kind of have to go east, west and your structure, your screening, your actions have to create the shots. And again, when your opponent knows what your actions are and they're blowing them up, now what do you get? Where's your creativity? And again, that's part of it. You need to see it, you need to live it and say, okay, those are my issues. This is what I need to do to fix it.
- [100:33]
A
But they do go east west a lot and that's why they use the corners and coming up from the corners very well. But to your point about the spacing, when you go east west and you're trying to swing the ball second side, third side, those gaps Open up those like diagonal alleys to the rim. But when no one respects your shooting, those gaps are smaller and they close faster for the ball handlers than they do for teams where the shooters are respected. Look, the bottom line is this.
- [100:59]
B
And that was, and that was my point about Grady Dick, because if you have, you know, if you, if he is a young guy in his third year who takes that next step and he's shooting 38, 39% and he's a MFer when the ball comes to him and it finds him three on the shot clock, bang. And you have that guy that. Now the defense has to loosen up a little bit and go, geez, I gotta, I gotta keep a guy. He's gotta stay on that guy. Now you're playing four on four. The space opens up a little bit and they, they need that. And hopefully one of those kids pops. And if they don't, they gotta find it.
- [101:36]
A
Here's the bottom line. To me, when the Raptors talk about build from the middle post, the Tampa tank, this is what they talked about. We had, we had to move on from a core that wasn't very old, frankly, in Siakam and Anunobi and Van Vliet, like, they're a little older than they're two, three years older than the guys they got back for them, but older and more expensive that we didn't think was going to go anywhere. But we don't want to bottom out while doing it. We want to stay relevant. They've succeeded in doing that. They're relevant, they're fifth, they're solid. I just don't know or see the roadmap to something much better than this. But I am interested to see how the last 20 or so games go and how the playoffs go, assuming they get there. And by the way, tiebreaker wise, they've lost the tiebreaker to Philly already. It's 1:1 with one game left against Orlando. That's a big one. Jack Armstrong. And they are up 20 against Miami, but they have two games left, so that will still be in play. And you'll.
- [102:31]
B
I got is it isn't. Aren't Toronto and Philly 2 2, if I'm not mistaken, 2 2.
- [102:36]
A
But division record is the next tiebreaker after that. And Philadelphia has an insurmountable. Jack Armstrong, just the best in the business. Such a delight. He and Matt Devlin have been steering the Raptors ship for a long time on the broadcast. It's great to see you. Thanks for taking a little time and. And I look forward to maybe a playoff trip up to see the in laws in Toronto.
- [102:57]
B
Jack, we'd love to have you. And by then they'll actually you'll be able to see the concrete and you'll be able to walk around. There'll be no snow left. So we had a rough winter this year, Zach. So you can come to a game, a Raptor playoff game, maybe hit a Jays game as well. And well, I'll tell you what else.
- [103:18]
A
I'll tell you what else is going on in to the Raptors are going to be long gone by this point. In fact, the NBA season will be over. But June 23rd in to Croatia is playing in the World cup in Toronto. You might see the Lowe family up there. Jack Armstrong, you're the man. Thank you sir.
- [103:32]
B
You got it, Zach.
- [103:35]
A
All right, that's it for the Zach Lowe show today. Barring some major news, we will be back on Tuesday per usual and I'll be on Sunday, the Bill Simmons podcast Sunday night. I think Rocket spurs play will be on right after that is the plan. Thank you to the great Chris Ryan. Thank you to the great Jack Armstrong. Thanks as always to Mike, Billy and Jonathan on production and thanks to all of you for listening to and or watching the Zach Lowe show. See you soon. 21 or over in President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over in President D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MY RESET. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or is it mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland? Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPENY or text HOPENY in New York. For Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7-8672.
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C
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A
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