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The Zach Lowe Show
Kawhi’s Return, LeBron Fitting In, and Risers and Fallers With Howard Beck. Plus, a Look at Chris Paul’s Career With Bill Simmons.
01:54:44
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- [00:01]
A
This episode is brought to you by. Black Friday Game Day on Prime Hey, Zach Lowe here. Black Friday game day is coming to prime and it'll be an epic day of live sports. Black Friday football is at the center of it all with the Chicago Bears taking on the Philadelphia Eagles at 3pm Eastern. That's followed by the final night of the Emirates NBA cup group play and a doubleheader starting with the Bucs and Knicks at 7pm and the Mavericks and Lakers at 10pm but the whole day starts with the return of the Capital One skins game as four elite PGA golfers face off with $4 million on the line. Black Friday game day tees off with the Capital One Skins game at 9am Eastern before the Big Bears Eagles football game at 3pm Eastern. It all culminates with a double dose of Emirates NBA cup action featuring Bucs, Knicks at 7pm and Mavs Lakers at 10pm Only on Prime. All right, coming up on a Monday edition of the Zach Lowe Show, a busy NBA weekend is in the books. We got Howard Beck to talk about Kawhi's return on LeBron's second game back with the Lakers. They're not going to be able to play the Jazz every single night. Teams who are rising and falling in the NBA over the last week, weekend, week or so, whatever. We talk about a lot of teams. Miami, Orlando, Washington, the Warriors. Oh, is it time to worry about about the Warriors? Lots to talk about in the NBA. Talk about the MVP race. These four guys at the top. Oh my God, it's not really an MVP race. It's just, we're just admiring the top four guys and how insane they all are. And then the pod father himself, the basketball historian, comes on to talk about the point. God, Chris Paul is retiring. What is his place in history? What do we remember about him? That's right, Bill Simmons is here. All coming up on the Zach Low Show. You're listening to the Zach Lowe show presented by FanDuel. FanDuel now displays your bets directly on your phone's lock screen and with the latest updates to the live events and player pages, it's never been easier to be part of the game. And Missouri get excited because FanDuel is coming your way as of December 1st. Download the FanDuel sportsbook app now and play your game 20 or over present in select states or 18 and over president in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800- gambler or visit rg-help.com call 1-888-789777 or is it ccpg.org chatinc. Welcome to the Zach Lowe Show. It's Monday morning and it's time to say those three words. What up, Beck?
- [02:34]
B
What's happening, Zach? How are you, my friend?
- [02:36]
A
Lots of stuff is happening. The Mets traded Brandon Nimmo. I'm gonna have to do an emergency Mets Corner episode later this week. I can't believe it. I can believe it.
- [02:45]
B
Don't even know who that is.
- [02:46]
A
Yeah, he's a baseball player. He's a lifer. He's a lifer. I actually had a dream last night about Pete Alonso signing with another team and how sad I was. This is what's happened to my brain. A couple things, a lot of things are happening in the NBA. We're going to fly through the big storylines, looking forward, backward, every direction. Storyline number one, Kawhi Leonard returned for the Los Angeles Clippers. And the Los Angeles Clippers did what they have done in most of their games this season, albeit on a back to back lose by a lot of points to the Cleveland Cavaliers. Kawhi, 20 points on 6 of 13. Looked pretty good. Defended Darius Garland, made some vintage Kawhi shots. Had to leave the game twice. I think once he had to go to the bathroom and then it looked like there was a little injury scare in there. Just le. I'm just waiting constantly. My only thought going through my head watching the Clippers is like, when is the next injury going to happen? You know, look, it's nice to have Kawhi back. They haven't gotten much of a rhythm this year. They are -25 for the season with Kawhi and Harden on the floor together. This was, of course, coming off Harden scoring 55 against the Hornets in one of the best games of his career. A win for the clippers. Clippers are 5 and 12, Howard 12th in the West. They are in my group, the the quintet of disasters in the Western Conference of teams ostensibly designed to try to win right now and who are not winning and not winning in huge, catastrophically bad ways. I don't know, man. What? What'd you see? It's. They can't tank. They don't have their picks, can't control their picks. Oklahoma City's got the picks. Kawhi Leonard. Can you even just under investigation, if you even start making fake Kawhi trades, you have to remember that. I don't know, man. It's not going great. Nice to have Kawhi back, though.
- [04:30]
B
Ain't great. It ain't great. This is gonna probably end up being one of my worst misreads of the season. You know, they won 50 games last season with Kawhi out for a massive chunk of it. And I thought well, you know, they're mostly rolling it back one, one minor defection which we can talk about. But I thought, you know, Tyloo coach, team, James Harden playing like an all star last season. Kawhi actually, you know, could play some similars of the season this year because he started off the year actually he was healthy at the beginning right then he went out it, it seemed to me and they, and they had like, I don't say they had a good off season. They had an interesting off season and I thought they had while old depth. They had depth. I thought they'd be good enough to be 50 plus again and right now it's looking very bad. And I think the more I look at this Zach, and I think it goes to something you said, right, of the teams that you mentioned that were designed to win now but are losing and I start to wonder were they actually designed to win now? And, and yes they are on some level, right. You don't grab all those, you know ve, the Bradley Beals and the Chris Paul's and even John Collins without having an intent to win. But they did swap out Norm Powell who was doing amazing things in Miami for salary cap reasons, primarily long term reasons, but it absolutely has set them back in the short term. And the more I look at what's going on with them, the more I have to think if you wanted to win now, that was a mistake. I, I understand why they are, look, everything is set up. Zubac is the only one on the books for 27, 28, they wanted to set up Capra for 27, blah blah blah, I get it. But the more I look at this and you know, I think a lack of flow, lack of shot creation, especially when Harden is not on the floor and how critical Norm Powell was to them to get through the huge part of the season last year without Kawhi. Leonard. I, I, I like, I like I say I understood the big picture version of this, why you did the move. I'm starting to think that that was not the smartest move. Especially because by the way, if Zubach is the only one on the books in 27 and it was Zubac and Powell, you could always move. So I don't know, I, I'm not.
- [06:44]
A
I'm not letting them off the hook like this. Although I will say it, it has at times started to take on the feel of A transitional season for them. Yeah, they fed the young guys more minutes, but really the only young guy who's consistently gotten those minutes is Kobe Sanders, who looks very good for a second round pick and is starting now or has started games for them. It will not be starting anymore. And I have said many times, like, I, I don't think the Clippers entered this season thinking we're in the inner circle of championship contenders because we got Bradley Beal and John Collins. I do think they thought we can win 50 games again. We can be the puncher's chance team of like, someone turns an ankle, the matchups turn right. We took Denver to seven. Like, I don't think they entered this year thinking it would be anything like this. And, and the, the best evidence for that is people wondering around the league, like, what does that mean for this front office if this team just stinks? What does it mean for Lawrence Frank and his crew in the front office? Are they even safe? And, and if they didn't, if they even heard a whiff of that, they wouldn't view this season as just a purely transitional season. There's no question. I think they underestimated how good Norm Powell was. I did too. I thought, I, I, not that I, I thought the Beal Collins combo was a worthy shot at kind of changing up their team and giving it a jolt of something they didn't have. And it's completely blown up in their faces. And Chris Paul is very old. He's retiring. I will talk about Chris Paul with Bill later. Brook Lopez aged 10 years over the summer somehow and has been a complete disaster. Last night against Cleveland in the first half, they were like, we don't even think we can put him on Evan Mobley. We're going to try and put him on Nickon Tomlin. And he couldn't always find Tomlin. And it's ended up stuck on DeAndre Hunter. DeAndre Hunter torched him. Their defense has been a complete train wreck the entire season. They are 25th in points allowed per possession. Their perimeter defense, sans Kawhi and the young guys is totally unwatchable. Harden is a turnstile. Beal was a turnstile. You can forgive Harden in part. He's having an absolutely sensational season. 28 a game, efficient shooting, most points he's averaged in like six years or something like that. I'm a little worried about the burden he's carrying, but someone's got to carry it because they can't score without him on the floor, especially when Kawhi's been out. They are such a bad transition defense team that it's completely embarrassing. And I think Jeff Van Gundy might throw a chair onto the floor at some point during one of these games. And their offense is 27th in turnovers. And so like their, their offense is hurting their defense because if they commit a live ball turnover, it's over. Like they're not getting back. It's going to be a dunker three on the other end. They're old, they're slow, Kawhi will help. And the best thing they have going for them is inertia of the Western conference. So they're 5 and 12 teams 9 and 10 in the play in right now are Portland at 7 and 10 and the Grizzlies somehow have soared into the play in on the backs of a two game winning streak. They won two dysfunction bowls over the weekend. They beat the Mavericks and the Kings. Golf clap for the Grizzlies being number one on the pile of catastrophes. My quintet of hell in the Western Conference and the Jazz are above them at 5 and 11 and I think the Clippers can reasonably hope we can't possibly be this bad and we can pass those teams and we can get into the play in and we can be like a 37 and 45 team and sell that as like hey, we're not so bad. Maybe we can win a game in the play and oh my God, disaster season unfolding. They remain a candidate for a crazy just shot in the dark trade. They remain one of my sort of favorite sneaky Anthony Davis trades. And by the way, do I believe Mark Cuban when he says we're not trading Anthony Davis? It means nothing to me. I expect the Mavericks to trade Anthony Davis. Kawhi looked okay though. I mean, I don't know what else to say. Kawhi looked fine. Looked really good. Great.
- [10:29]
B
Kawhi looked fine. And, and I do look, I think they're going to be better this and I did the exact same exercise you did, which is the. Is there a face saving version of this where if Kawhi plays enough and they win enough games and there's so many teams tanking in the west that they should pass right? Like right now they'd be delivering the 8th best lottery odds to the Thunder and that pick, like if, if it weren't for that, you'd say well whatever, all right, fine, transitional season, they tank and, and you shouldn't ever like, you know, do anything just to save face. But there's a space.
- [11:00]
A
This is the Sean Marks Brooklyn Nets sunk Cost theory. That is interesting because when you talk to people around the league about fake hardened trades and fake kawhi trades and it's just extremely hard given their styles, their ages, their salaries, it like, I don't think there's really anything there. You, you hear this. Well, they can't trade those guys because they don't control their pick. And you, you do want to say, well, they don't what? They don't control their pick either way. And so if you can get back assets, maybe you should just get back assets. But Steve Ballmer has never shown any. It's, it's not just that they don't control the Pickets. They have an owner who's wildly competitive and sits there on the sidelines like a freaking piston in a car engine going for every basket they score.
- [11:43]
B
So yeah, what was, what was a little toy back. I've never childhoods where you had the little pole under like the clown thing and it just would just like do the arm things.
- [11:52]
A
Dude, I don't know. You're, that's, you're talking like that's, that's like a Sorry warrior.
- [11:56]
B
I'm really old. That it is. Listen, Harden, not for nothing, career high efficiency right now and shooting a career best from three and not for nothing, this is, did you mention trade possibilities? This is the longest he's been with one team since he forced his way out of Houston all those years ago. So three consecutive seasons with one team. Congratulations, James Harden. I do think there's a version of this where they at least crack the plane and if you're in the plane, you make the playoffs and if you make the playoffs, you're not a lottery team because the lottery is based on playoffs or not playoffs, not based on record. So even if you get in with the crap record, there's a face saving version of this anywhere. But yeah, there's, there's, there's not a lot of, of good things to look at here. And somewhere lurking in the background is the aspiration deal, which I checked in with somebody a couple weeks ago, I don't know, you know, a half dozen losses ago who basically said like the vibes are really bad, the chemistry is off it. And the quote was not a serene place at the moment. And this is two weeks ago and that the aspiration stuff was kind of hanging over. And I said, well, how is that? I, I, to me that feels like something that hangs over the front office that does not leak into or leech into the locker room and the players because what does it have to do with them aside from Kawhi himself and nothing's going to happen to him. Nevertheless, this person asserted that yeah it is. It is kind of leeching into everything for whatever that's worth.
- [13:16]
A
Should also mention well, I mean how could it not? How could it not. Yeah, I don't want to talk about that anymore right today there's there's just.
- [13:27]
B
Note just noting it should be a.
- [13:29]
A
Nice topic of conversation for the All Star Game this this year. That'll be fun. I'm sure Adam is really looking forward to that state of the game press conference he does on the Saturday night. Every game, every Adam Silver press conference is now just explaining away a scandal. Seems like a great job. He is well compensated. Should also mention Derrick Jones Jr. Is injured. That's a big deal. Bogdan Bogdanovich has been in and out of the lineup. They have inched toward before the Beal season ending injury. I I said on this podcast I just don't think you can play Harden and Beal together even when Kawhi is healthy. The defense has been so bad and I suggested a starting lineup of Dunn, Harden, Collins, Kawhi and Zubots when they all got healthy and that is indeed who they are starting now. The Collins Zoo fit is a is a little clunky but they're plus 10 in 275 minutes together. Solid defensively and really at this point like whatever. However you can plug the dam on defense is is what you need to emphasize. It's a little clunky on offense, but maybe with time they'll gain some chemistry. Zoo looks unbelievable. Just bulldozing people. 30th by the way, there are 30 teams in the NBA. The Clippers are 30th in points per possession allowed on transition chances. Yay Clippers. The T shirts, the F U C K T shirts did not work.
- [14:51]
B
Forgot about those already.
- [14:52]
A
Did not work. For people who don't know what I'm talking about, you can look it up. Okay, storyline number two the Lakers are 20 with LeBron James in the lineup. They have beaten the Jazz Both times. Huzzah. LeBron 17, 8 and 6 in a almost fall from a head loss last night was notably -14 in the game and this will be something to monitor throughout the season. I don't read anything into that yet. I don't really read much into the fact that the Lakers were better with him off the floor last year. I think LeBron was great last year last year but it is worth monitoring, particularly how they do in the Reeves plus LeBron no Luca minutes. I think, look, they almost blew that game last night against Utah. They were clowning around like they were trying to throw these touchdown passes all the time. Luka was winding up and almost throwing touchdown passes all the time. They were just having a little fun playing with their food. It almost cost them to me. Like, I don't want to spend too much time on this because I talked about LeBron's debut. I just think offensively they have to be absolutely thrilled with how he has fit in so far. They're running a lot of all the right actions, like all the two man actions between Reeves and LeBron, Reeves and Luca, LeBron and re LeBron and Luca trying to search out mismatches both ways. They were targeting Keonte George over and over and over again with LeBron in the post and Luca in the post and getting all sorts of good stuff out of it. Defensively, I just, I'm just continuing to watch this lineup with Rui, Luka and LeBron. Three essentially power forward ish players defensively and, and no good point of attack defense and wondering like, how is this going to work? Maybe, maybe it works so well on offense. It's. It's a really good shooting lineup and Ayton has been really good. He had a knee contusion last night. That's worth watching. I don't. This team, this team is pretty goddamn good, Howard. They're 12 and 4. They're playing a little over their heads. How do I know that? They're 15th in offense and 14th in defense, so they're average ish. But they're 60 in clutch games so far, which is a very Lakers thing to do. And I'm just fascinated. I want to watch every game with these three guys playing. I want to see how they fit, how it works. Because I do think the outlines of a very powerful offensive team are already here. Like they were getting whatever, whatever they wanted last night against you. I thought that they were 10 of 38 on threes. It felt like all 38 of them were good looks. And these three guys together could be really potent defensively. I just, you know, tbd.
- [17:22]
B
Yeah. And it's hard to read them right now too, because. Right. Like LeBron just came back and the two games he played are against a tanking team. The Jazz. They had the period where it was just Austin Reeves because Luca was out. You've had Austin Reeves and Luca together. We haven't seen all three of them extensively since last season. And you know, I, I do think I. Yeah. It's exactly what you said. They're fascinating. They're, and they're fun to watch, like good, bad or otherwise. They're going to be fun to watch because of those three guys. I, I, it feels to me like you mentioned the clutch stat, like they were like, the record seems way out ahead of where I thought they should be based on actual performance. Um, checked cleaning the glass and their, their expected wins are actually at like nine and a half instead of 12. They're actually on like a 49 win pace according to their point differential, but they're on a 61 win pace according to their actual record right now.
- [18:18]
A
So somewhere in between that, that settles into a 53 win pace.
- [18:22]
B
Still.
- [18:23]
A
Great. That's, that's a hard over on them and that is a massive success story.
- [18:27]
B
Yeah, they're right. They're probably not a 60 win team. Right. But if they're 50 plus, they're not.
- [18:33]
A
Probably not a 60 win team. They're 1,000% not a 60 win team, but they're a very good team. And I just think they're leaning like. LeBron was sort of offended almost at this idea that, you know, he said after his first game, like, well, I can fit in any system. I don't understand why there was any question about that. And you want to say, well, I mean, I, I understand your agent released a statement basically saying, I'm very cranky and I don't like the way this is going here with Luca and everything. And like, maybe that's why people were curious about how you would fit in. He has fit in tremendously well. He's not bringing the ball up much. He's not forcing it on the pick and roll. Luca, it's Lucas team so far and then it's Reeves's team. He's kind of like the third ball handling option who's playing exactly as you would hope.
- [19:21]
B
Yes.
- [19:22]
A
In almost 41 gigantic freight train of a point power forward would play, which is cut hunt mismatches, bring the ball up occasionally, run the show. He had one late possession last night after Luka had a bad possession where he was like, I'm gonna give me a shot. I'm gonna, I'm gonna see what I can do. Bully guys, get switches. My favorite play last night was he took a screen from Ayton off the ball, like around the three point arc. He sprinted around the screen from Ayton and Austin Reaves had the ball on the left wing and it looked just like a textbook screen, the screener play. So Ayton was going to screen for LeBron. LeBron was going to sprint into a ball screen for Reeves, Hunt the mismatch and LeBron full speed aborted the second screen for Reaves and just cut to the rim and Reeves hit him with a pass and he missed the layup. It was like, that's, that's what I want. I think this is. My opinion on the Lakers has not changed. I was the only one of me, House and Simmons that took the over on them. I think they're very good. I just don't think that they are good enough to win three playoff series in the west because of their age and their defense. However, Mr. Beck, a big piece of news over the weekend relevant to this very discussion was Aaron Gordon messing up his hamstring again and being out four to six weeks. This is now kind of an officially recurring thing for him. He played that game seven heroically on one leg against the Thunder last year and played sensationally. Christian Brown is out for a little bit and the door has creaked open for a scenario. Where is there all of these teams in the west are hoping, is there any scenario? Forget the Thunder, they're first. They just never lose basketball games. They never play close games. It's just like they're over here blowing the shit out of everybody. Is there a scenario where Denver can fall to four and those two teams, assuming Denver gets out of the first round, which I would definitely picked them to do, play each other in the semifinals instead of the west finals and we just have the bracket just breaks, right? Maybe. I mean, I, I still think Denver is like easily the second best team in the West. Maybe not easily. The Rockets are right there with them. That was a great game on Friday, by the way. Super fun game. Rockets, Nuggets. But the Aaron Gordon thing is it's a huge deal. They're now down two starters. You know, we'll see who they start. They could start Murray, Hardaway, Watson, Joker and who else? Cam Johnson. They could start. They started Zeke Najee 1 game recently. I, you know, just, I'm just, I'm watching Jones. Spencer Jones has been pretty good player. And Peyton Watson just, yeah, oh, 39% on threes all of a sudden and taking them with confidence. And Jokic is feeding him and every pass Jokic makes to him, you could almost see him being like, just shoot, man. These are long term shots. This is for the greater good. Long term, you got to take them. If you don't make them take the next one, I don't know. Just Aaron Gordon is One of my very favorite players in the NBA and I'm just, knock on wood, take it slow, get healthy, get healthy for the playoffs because they need all hands on deck to get out of the West.
- [22:32]
B
I know this is a different hamstring. It's the other leg this time, but it was the hamstring back in the playoffs and like he's just had hamstring issues and I just, yeah, take your time. He's an awesome player. He's really fun to watch and he's really fun to watch with Jokic. And as much as we always talk about, you know, Jokic's connection with Jamal Murray, like Jokic and Aaron Gordon are like, you know, connected on some, some other wavelength that we can't even see. He's super important to them and he's super fun player. If, if, if it's really four to six weeks for him and if Christian Brown is out for most of that too. I was looking at this 15 games between now and basically New Year's. Nine on the road, six at home. Eight of the games are against teams that are currently above.500 and they end the year in the midst of a seven game road trip that is at Orlando, Miami, Toronto on New Year's Eve. All, all of those teams playing well right now, obviously. And then into the new year it goes at Cleveland, Brooklyn, Philly, Boston. So like they're, I mean they're going to get tested. It's, it's going to be, I think, a tough stretch for them and we'll see Peyton Watson, career high last week in New Orleans.
- [23:41]
A
So yeah, he's really great. You know who's going to be at that game in Toronto? Your boy right here. Toronto has an incredible holiday schedule. I'm very excited. Not only am I going to be at that game as a working member of the media, I cajoled my wife, sister in law to get four tickets. Two for them, two for our daughters. And I told them, watch the game. This is, we're not going to be socializing. We're not going to be walking around buying merchandise. You get to see this dude up close. It's like you're close to God. If you could watch Jokic up close. Pay attention, my 10 year old. Pay attention. Do you see that pass he threw the other night against the Rockets? The no, look over his side of his head that almost hit Jabari Smith Jr. In the head. I was like, even, even. I was showing it to a buddy of mine last night. I was like, I watch this guy every night. And even I saw that pass and I was like, what just happened? I. I don't understand. Okay.
- [24:35]
B
On the replay, on the replay after, I thought after we already seen him make the pass, but on the replay I was like, no, that ball's going to hit dude in the head. Like, it's going to hit Jabari Smith in the head. Like, it, it. I don't know how he did that. That was incredible. But he's always incredible.
- [24:49]
A
A couple other Lakers notes again. Ayton knee contusion. We'll see. He's been everything they could have hoped for so far. Maxi Kleba got in that game and looked pretty spry. Doesn't look like he wants to shoot threes. And like half the point of Maxi Kluba at the five is shooting threes. So to get that taken care of. Gabe Vincent. Gabe Vincent. After a kind of a rocky couple of seasons since the Heat, finals, injuries, subpar play, is he kind of becoming the guy the Lakers hoped he would be when they signed him? He's making more shots. He got up into Lowry marketing on switches last night and they actually played him in the RUI spot with the rest of the starters. That. That lineup gets a little smaller. But I think they're going to keep experimenting with that. Like four starters and like smart in the RUI spot. Gabe, in the ruse, I mean, RUI's been unbelievable. Just, just worth noting. Can we, can we just take a little detour into the insanity of the early season MVP races? We reach the quarter pool.
- [25:54]
B
Absolutely.
- [25:56]
A
So, I mean, there's been obviously a ton of Jokic MVP talk. He was my preseason pick. He's averaging 30 points, 13 rebounds, 11 assists, shooting 63%. He again leads the league in most advanced statistics because that's just what he does. And for better or worse, when you're splitting hairs, and that's what we're going to get to here. If he carries the nuggets to the 2 seed with all these injuries, that's going to help his MVP case. Even with Jamal Murray having the best start of his career. And then you look, then I was. Giannis got a lot of early season MVP buzz. The Bucks are so far kind of dead in the water without him. I think they've lost four in a row. The last two or three without him. He's. His numbers are 31, 11, a career high, seven dimes. He's shooting 63% defensively. He's still very good. And obviously he's carrying a roster that is not awesome without him. And so you've heard a lot of those two guys. And then you look like, Let me just. I know. Shai's just like, every. Every time I watch the Thunder, it's like another 30 piece. Another 30 PS no, J Dub, other guys missing games. Let me check out Shea's stats. Oh, 32, 7 assists, 5 rebounds, 54% shooting, 59% on twos, 41% on threes, sniffing. He's a free throw away from 50, 40, 91 1/2 steals in a block, a game. As good or better as he was last year when he stole the mvp. Not stole, when he swiped the mvp. When he nabbed the mvp. When he took the MVP from Jokic, who was my pick for mvp. Unbelievable. And then you're like, wait a second, what about Luka? Luka looks fit and defending better and just a machine of offense. 34.5 points, 9 assists, 9 rebounds, 47% shooting. The only blight is 31% on threes. And he's making up for it somewhat by leading the league in free throw attempts at 12 and a half a game. The Lakers are plus 60 with Luka on the floor, minus 18 with Luka off the floor. And it just feels like again, when he's on the floor, they just get whatever shot they want. I said before the season, I had a whole question. I can't remember who I asked it to. If you had to pick anybody to crack the top four, not, not win the mvp, just unseed one of these guys for the top, a top four spot on the MVP ballot, who would you pick? And I think it was Goldsberry. He picked Wembanyama. I picked Anthony Edwards. But this just underscores these four guys. You have to sit back and just marvel. They're all averaging over 30 a game. They're all putting up crazy historic numbers at the same time. It's just, as the kids say, what a time to be alive. With these four, you can't crack them. Like, nobody, even Wemby, as amazing as he was, if he reaches the games limit, which is going to be tight now with this injury, it's like, can I. I mean, we'll see where I can put him. But just getting fourth would be a heroic accomplishment for anyone else in the league.
- [28:56]
B
I don't see how anybody's going to crack that top three. I mean, listen, a lot of things can happen, obviously, injuries, everything else. And we don't know where the Lakers will end up, you know, just in terms of the win loss part of it, which you know, factors in for sure. But yeah, I mean, you look at the guys on the fringe of this right now, and it's, you know, if I'm looking at the, the MVP tracker on Basketball Reference, which does this, you know, via algorithm and, you know, Cade Cunningham is flirting on the fringes of this thing, but I don't think we expect he's going to crack that top three.
- [29:25]
A
Look, if Detroit, if Detroit breaks the all time wins record, then, yeah, Cade Cunningham is going to be on the list.
- [29:31]
B
There you go.
- [29:32]
A
They've won a million games in a.
- [29:33]
B
Row and, and Giannis has just been, you know, you could just like, you know, etch him in preseason every year for somewhere in the top three or four in the MVP race. And yeah, the, the injuries and the, the games limit could potentially knock him out. And the Bucks record could throw him down a couple of notches too, depending on how, how they, how they go. But those, those three. Doncic, Shay Jokic, absolutely phenomenal. And I don't know if you wanted to veer into this at all, but, I mean, I, I do think part of the fascinating part of the Lakers season is watching how LeBron conducts himself the rest of the way. Because there was the contract stuff and because there is the contract stuff, because he's going to be a free agent, because he's going to be 41 soon. And his first two games back to me, looked like a guy who was deferring and fitting in based on I just came back after not playing for seven months, basically. Is that going to be his posture the rest of the way? Something I wrote about last week on the ringer, is, is, is he willing to be, you know, essentially Luca's wingman or Luca and Austin Reeves's wingman as opposed to the focus of everything. And these first two games have been, as you noted, exactly what you would hope for, exactly the ideal for a guy who's about to be 41. But I am curious, given how much he has led with his pride and ego and everything else over the course of his career, is he really ready to do that to effectively become Kareem Toluca's Magic Johnson or not? And I do have my eye on that. And I love what I've seen from LeBron so far. I hope that is where he is.
- [31:08]
A
Great piece on the ringer last week by you. Looking back at the Kareem Magic fit and comparing it to the LeBron Luca Fitzgerald and contrasting it too. Everyone should read that. Okay, that's it for the Los Angeles teams. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. The holidays move quick like a fast break down the court. Luckily, Prime's fast free delivery means everything arrives on time. Prime's fast shipping is always there for you during the holidays, especially when it's last minute and it just can't wait. Need some holiday magic? It's on Prime. Head to Amazon.comprime to shop now. Our next pick was we're going to do we're going to pick two rising teams and two falling teams based on the weekend and the events of the last week or so. Here were my nominees for rising teams of the week. Detroit. Yeah, I did you last week did a whole segment on you. We're going to park you over there. Toronto, you've won seven in a row. Ditto. Did a whole segment on you last week. Not much has changed. You beat some bad teams. Great story. Can't wait to get up to the Great White north soon. Memphis, I mentioned they won two toilet bowls over the weekend. That's not going to get you the award here. And Sacramento won a basketball game which for them counts as getting on this list. The Suns are on, I believe a three game winning streak. Yes. And beat the Wolves over the weekend. Nobody did you see that game? Wolves Suns on? I think it was Friday. No. I gotta tell you, I don't know that there's ever been a good team that melts down like the Minnesota Timberwolves. They melt down like a, like a 9 and 73 team. When it goes badly in crunch time. It could not possibly go any worse. And the game they blew against Phoenix is unbelievable. I've talked about the Suns too. So here are the nominees that we picked. The Orlando Magic in the Miami Heat and I want to start with Orlando. Despite the fact that they lost against Boston yesterday on Sunday with no Suggs and No Wendell Carter Jr. It's starting to happen, Howard. It's starting to burble up the. Huh. Magic are winning some games without Paolo Banchero. Their offense looks like it's flowing a little better. Spacing's a little better. What's, what's going on here before, before last night's game against Boston, their offense was top 10 since Bankero's injury. Now this is like a five game stretch or something and it was just sort of like interesting to watch. And you hear around the league these burblings of hey, you know, Palo was not having this tremendous kind of season. Lots of long twos, fifth most isos in the league per 100 possessions and a very bad sub 1.0 points per possession figure on those isos according to the second spectrum data. What do you think is going on with these Orlando Magic who are now after Yesterday, they are 10 and 8 after a slow start, they've picked it up and the pickup started pre Palo injury. And I don't want to, you know, sort of jinx it and I don't know if they should start planning the parade route yet. In Orlando, they are 11th in points per possession. 11th. This team has not been in the top 20 since 2012. I. I don't. I don't even want to say anything more. And they're sniffing their league average. And defense, their defense is improving. They're trending up.
- [34:37]
B
Howard Beck trending up. You didn't say the phrase, are we Ewing theorying.
- [34:43]
A
No, no, that's not. I can't step. I.
- [34:46]
B
It is a very interesting Bill Ewing theory them yet.
- [34:51]
A
It is a very interesting time in that. Yeah. Universe with this Banchero thing. And let. Let me be clear. Well, actually, you know what? We'll get to it with this Ban Caro thing. With the Hawks continuing to win without Trey Young, which I have talked to ad nauseam about and think is quite interesting, and with Tyler Hero returning tonight to the rampaging Miami Heat, who are our next team up? I don't, you know, look, I took the over on the magic at 51 and a half. 50 and a half. Whatever it was, it was very high. And I was very discouraged by how sluggish they looked offensively to start the season. They began picking it up pre Palo injury. Have kept that up since the Palo injury. I don't know. Is this about Palo to you or is this about other things? Or is it about everything at the same time?
- [35:37]
B
Quickly here. I just want to slightly asterisk their surge. Right. They won at Portland. You know, the Blazers are what they are. They beat the Knicks in New York. That was the game that Paolo got hurt. And then the Windsor against Brooklyn. The warriors who are struggling. The Clippers who are not good. The Knicks who by that time were missing OG Anunoby and whoever else there. And the losses during this stretch, it's a 6 and 2 stretch. The losses were at Houston. Okay. Really good team at Boston. So I just kind of like note to myself, are we sure everything is solved?
- [36:08]
A
I don't. I'm not gonna. Just hold on a second. They beat the warriors who were trying in that game.
- [36:15]
B
Sure.
- [36:16]
A
They had everybody. They sat.
- [36:18]
B
They sat right now.
- [36:19]
A
That's fine. Like, do you have to play against the Warriors. Yeah, they blew the shit out of the Clippers and they beat the Knicks twice. OG or no og they beat the Knicks by double digits twice. I'm not just. I'm not gonna poo poo that.
- [36:32]
B
All right? It's fine. They are. I have a natural skepticism of the, of the Magic because of the build and this does lead into the Bankero question, which is that I'm, I've never been entirely sold on Ben, Carol and Wagner as the best fitting co stars. Right. Like, they are both really great with the ball in their hands. Neither of them is like an elite playmaker. I don't know that there's like, I never see a ton of synergy of them playing off of each other when they are both playing. And it's not that they're better off without Banchero, but I do think some teams sometimes are better when things are simplified. When you know exactly what the pecking order is, but also when you only have one guy who tends to dominate the ball and it's not taking turns, it's not having the, the, the offense just kind of plot and the ball stick. This is a very ball sticky team. They are right now 22nd in assists and they're in the bottom third for potential assists. They're way down there in points created via assist, 18th and passes per game. Like, this is not a big ball movement team and that's fine. You can win that way with a lot of ISO play and, and just a lot of, you know, bankero doing bank hero things and Wagner doing Wagner things. But I just, I've always been a little skeptical of the build and so I am at least curious how this ultimately plays out during the time that I don't know how much longer we're expecting for Banker to be out. But I, I'm curious is all.
- [38:07]
A
You know, you don't believe in Magic. Just. Just a grumpy, grumpy skeptic. Look, the skeptics, the Palo skeptics, and they are. There are many around the league and they. Yeah, there are some and they lean toward the end. More analytics. Ben would point out that the Magic were more or less the same team with Paolo on the floor versus off the floor last year and better substantially with him off the floor two seasons ago and now looking a little bit more flowy with him in street close. Anyone, skeptic or not skeptic, would point out that during this stretch, Suggs is playing more and better. Yes, Bain is playing more and better. Wendell Carter Jr. Is playing better. Anthony Black is making a little bit of a mini leap. Da Silva is making. I love De Silva as a role player. He's great. Isaac all of a sudden looks like every two out of every three games looks like Jonathan Isaac again and is contributing. And so a skeptic would say, a Palo skeptic would say, well, they're touching the ball more. It's more of an equal opportunity offense. Of course they're playing better. Of course they're shooting better. A Palo booster or neutral person would say this was bound to happen. Is the team settled in? Bain settled in. Shooting can be fluky and their shooting has been better. Passes per game flat with and without Paolo. And for the season their net rating is the same with Powell on the floor versus Paolo off the floor. All of this is to say when you also factor in the fact that he is showing the up in the playoffs when they have been overmatched talent wise and injured and the guy has looked really, really good and sometimes borderline unstoppable. I do think this is almost akin to the trey situation in Atlanta in that there is something here where if you just take out three or four of the I'm gonna dribble into these entitlement 20 footers and stop the offense, just three or four and you play this way more often. And Paolo, I think much more than Trey is easily malleable into that sort of role. Just like set more screens, hunt more mismatches, post up more, think the offense more extra pass more like he's a big guy who can pass. That's an easy transition. The best version of this team is Paolo tweaking his game that 10%. I'm not asking him to be a totally different player. 10% and watch this and think, okay, that, that works. I can trust these guys. Bane settles in a little bit more and you get the best of all of those worlds together. That's where the ceiling is the highest. Because we've seen this all the time. Teams can lose their best player, their second best player, and for two weeks it's like, huh, interesting. And then the talent deficit just catches up to you as the opponents get better, as people scout you better, as people are more prepared for you as you go into a shooting slump, whatever it is. I do think this is interesting though. I'm generally kind of more bullish on Paolo than the skeptics. But I do think there's a little, just, just a bit, little lean 10% this way and this is worth monitoring.
- [41:19]
B
Yeah, yeah, that's all monitoring. I'M not, I'm not, I'm not poo pooing themselves. I'm just saying, just a little.
- [41:27]
A
I, I will say the Suggs thing. He and Paolo have only played nine the starters, rather the start or magic starters. So Suggs, Bane, Wagner, Paolo, Wendell Carter Jr. Are plus 45 and 101 minutes. That lineup is killing it. And I do think some of this is the Suggs factor. Suggs has been outstanding on both ends of the floor, 40% plus from three, flying everywhere on defense. And because of his injury issues and now Paolo's injury issues, they just haven't overlapped very much so far this year. And I'm not making any kind of judgments on Banchero and fit until I see that group and particularly those two guys play longer together. Okay, rising team number two, the Miami Heat have won four games in a row. They are 13th in offense with this revamped system that I've talked a lot about. A big fat 4th in defense, 7th in net rating. Norm Powell is lighting the league on fire, averaging 25 a game on 50 shooting. Bam is back after missing five games. He's been solid. Not great by Bam standards, but solid. And Tyler Hero returns tonight. Incumbent All Star number one option has to figure out life in this system that has minimized the pick and roll and up the pace. They are number one in pace by a mile now. They are absolutely flying. Bench has been fantastic the whole season despite Jovic being injured recently. Really fun team to watch. Maybe this is the year SPO gets coach of the year and I've mentioned that before. I'm very interested in the Hero fit. I'm very interested just flat out. Who do they start? What's their starting five? I don't know the answer to that. We can spitball that a little bit, but this team has been an absolute delight to watch this season.
- [43:11]
B
There. I didn't get far enough into your last pod with Bill. Where do they end up on your revised league pass rankings? Because they got to be super high.
- [43:20]
A
I think they were like 11th or something. It wasn't super, super high, but it was, it was, it was higher than they were certainly going into the season.
- [43:27]
B
For a team that's lacking in kind of like traditional star power, right? Like Norm Powell is an all star right now. And Bam Adebayo obviously has star for other reasons, but not the typical like NBA star who's like must watch TV type of star. Right? For a team that's lacking in that kind of like marquee type talent or names they're just super fun to watch because of of the style of ball they're playing and it's really fun to see you point, you know, you note Spolstra and how many different, how many different swerves he's had to make over the last 10 something years, ever since the Heatles era of, of you know, leaning into this guy, that guy, this style of offense, that style like this one, this is a really fun version of, of the Heat. And that they're able to score at this rate and at this efficiency without that kind of marquee name at the top is, is awesome. Norm Powell has, has been fantastic and I do wonder now how Tyler Herro fits back into all this. He's been a fairly ball dominant guy in the course of his career. This was his team before Norm got there just a few months ago. Were we, I was trying to remember before in the off season, were we all project was Norm Powell going to be sixth man for this team or we were we slotting him in?
- [44:43]
A
Well, this was the, this is the fascinating question. I don't think anybody knew because for sure because you had a bunch of you had starter questions at the guard spots with like do you start all three of Mitchell, Hero and Powell? How does, how does that work? Do you need a traditional ish point guard like Davion Mitchell? And then on the big man spot, do you start Bam and Khalil Ware? Khalil Ware, by the way, is on a rebounding binge right now, which is very healthy for a team that is 28th in defensive rebounding. Or do you start jovic at the 4 and Bam at the 5 and now we actually get to see the answers to those questions. I would say this Hero starts because he's Tyler Hero. Norm starts because that's over. He's averaging 25 a game. He has to start.
- [45:25]
B
Not a question anymore.
- [45:26]
A
Wiggins has to start because he's having a splendid all around season and Bam has to start because he's Bam Adebayo. I, I think all of those debates are over. Tyler Hero is not going to be a six man and Norm Powell is not going to be a six man. At least not in the foreseeable future. Even if you think that is their best version of an ultimate NBA destiny, that's not happening here. And so the question then becomes do you start big with Bam? And where I'm gonna guess no. Even though they started together yesterday due to injuries, do you start in the middle somewhere with Jovic? If when he gets healthy he's missed a couple games of the hip injury or they've been starting Pella Larson as sort of a hybrid. 3, 4. Hawkes could certainly step into that spot. Although he's been so good off the bench. I kind of want to keep him where he is. Or do you? Because Davion Mitchell has been such a good driver in this offense. Do you start super small and put Wiggins at the 4 and start Mitchell, Hero, Powell, Wiggins. Bam. That could be where they end up. We can get fixated on starters at the expense of who finishes the game, which is really interesting. But the rotation choices SPO has to make are really interesting and not only at the start, but just how many guys are going to be in the rotation. Spo is traditionally like the nine man rotation. We just said like 10 names and we didn't even get to my guy, Simone Fontechio or a bunch of other guys who have played well for them. Interesting choices, good choices to have. I was, I was, I said all summer the Heat are going to be better than people think. I think even with. I said even without Hero, I think they're going to be better than people think took the over. I think this team is legit good. They're even better than I thought they were going to be. One red flag. Opponents are shooting 31 on threes. That's the lowest mark in the league. That's going to regress and how do they fare when that regresses? I still think this is a good, solid team with a chance at a top 60. And if you were as far as. Yeah, as far as Hero, I think the fit's going to be fine. I think he's going to figure it out. Shooting. Shooting is the great fail safe answer to a lot of fit questions. And the dude can shoot defensively. I think that's going to actually be the more interesting part of the equation. With Hero and Norm together, how does that work? But offensively, I think it'll be fun.
- [47:43]
B
Yeah, no, I, I way underestimated them. To be honest. You were much higher on them than I was preseason. But I, I did not. I did not see. Even though Norm Powell had a very, very good year for the Clippers and flirted with with All Star candidacy last season, I did not see another gear from Norm Powell, which he apparently had and has. So they've been, they've been, they've been really fun and I, I love all the ball movement, the pace, everything. They're just stylistically very fun to watch.
- [48:10]
A
Before we go to the falling teams. I do want to mention I mentioned Memphis won two of the toilet bowls over the weekend, and one of them was against the Mavericks. I very much enjoyed the Klay Thompson clap back at John Morant and say, you know, he's been talking a lot. Talking a lot for a guy who's in street clothes and maybe hasn't accomplished that much. I, I love, I love this for lots of reasons. I love when Clay gets on his high horse about, like, do you remember who I am? Like, you remember the 11, 12 threes, whatever it was I hit in game six? Remember, remember that? Like four rings? Remember you held up four rings at Devin Booker a few years ago, which he has since said he regrets doing. I love when he's just like, settle down. One playoff series win in your career. Settle down over there. Okay, I enjoyed settle down.
- [48:55]
B
Guy who, who hardly ever plays. He pointed out he, he, he basically checked every possible box, doesn't play a lot. He used the word accountability at one point. Like, he just, he just hit all, all the soft spots there. Like, John Morant should not be messing with Klay Thompson. Klay Thompson's a made man and John Morant is, you know, he's John Moran.
- [49:12]
A
Falling teams here were the nominees. Warriors, Wizards, hint, they're the winners. Other nominees, the Knicks. Get your freaking defense in gear. I know Ogn and Obi's hurt. That's bad. You're a little smaller. Cat. Cat. Some players are kind of snapping at Cat during some of these games. And, like, where were you, man? You're supposed to. That's your rotation. It's your rotation. Milwaukee. Life is hard without Giannis. Utah's lost a couple tough ones in a row. The Pelicans are two and 15 have lost nine games in a row. You may have heard Howard Beck that they do not control their first round pick in the upcoming draft. Not sure if you heard that.
- [49:55]
B
Is that true? Really?
- [49:56]
A
I think I'm pretty sure. Joe Dumars knows.
- [49:59]
B
He's got two phones.
- [50:02]
A
Those. Those were the main. And Portland two. Two more. Portland two and seven in their last nine games. But they're missing Holiday Scoot and Sharp, so I'm going to give them a little bit of a pass.
- [50:12]
B
All right, hold on. As. As long as we're where we veered just slightly into. Into John Clay. How did you feel about Derek Queen with the lunging for the ball while they were running out the clock to then go score in dead time?
- [50:29]
A
Was it an IST game or not? No, I'm sorry. Excuse me. An Emirates Cup Emirates cup game. I don't know.
- [50:35]
B
This was Saturday.
- [50:36]
A
None of these things. As long as you're not endangering anyone's knees or legs while doing it. None of these things.
- [50:41]
B
There was nothing. The game is.
- [50:42]
A
The game is going on.
- [50:44]
B
It was just one of those little impulsive, kind of like he's young, he's. Maybe he's a little immature. But also like that was kind of fun. But also the other team is crushing you by a thousand points and they're just running out the clock because that's the classy thing to do and you're gonna go steal the. But I don't know.
- [50:59]
A
He's fun and good and even in ripping that trade a new one when it happened, I said on this podcast, there's a world in which Queen is good. And we look back at this like some of the other sort of golden chip trades that shocked us when the Kings traded one of their first round picks or a swap too. I think it was initially Philly and then Boston. I can't remember exactly where it went. And when there was a Heat pick that got traded all around the league that was a golden chip and both of them end up being like 11th, 12th, 13th. It's like there's a world where Queen is good, Zion's healthy, and we're all apoplectic about this trade and it ends up being they get a good rookie and they get. They trade Asa newell and the 13th pick in the draft and the value proposition suddenly a year later looks okay. They're 2 and 15. So this is not on track to be the 11th or 12th or 13th pick in the draft. This is in fact on pace to be a guaranteed top five to seven pick to eight pick in the draft. They're really counting on the lottery odds. Holy smokes. Okay. And Charlotte was also nominated here. 2 and 11. Lamello Ball continues to just play sometimes. Brandon Miller's back 2 and 11 rather in their last 13 games. Con knipple. Holy knipple.
- [52:15]
B
Awesome.
- [52:16]
A
50, 40, 90 right now almost 49 from the field overall. Okay, warriors falling team of the weekend. They are nine and nine with a minus one scoring margin for the season. One total point. They are 23rd in offense. You want to. There's a lot been a lot of focus on their point of attack defense on Warriors Twitter, which is always the like most unhappy Twitter and it hasn't been great. Moses Moody is a little overmatched, is like number one defender and you know they're getting blown by now. And then 23rd in offense is the real issue that's going on here. They don't seem to know who to play. They don't seem to know who to start. Will Richard is starting the last few games, but then he got benched and they started Quinton Post in the second half of their last loss. They can't score when Steph is off the floor. They are 118 points per 100 possessions when Steph plays, 105 when he sits. Some of that some but not close to all is skewed by the non Butler, non Steph minutes, which are a disaster and obviously you wipe those away when the games matter. But even with Butler on Steph off, they're kind of an ugly 109 offense. 108 defense. Buddy Heel's not making threes. Al Horford's not making threes. Kaminga's hurt the every time they win two games in a row without Kaminga the we're better without Kaminga group. Hey, where's your Kaminka tweets now? Where's the Kaminga stuff? He stinks. He doesn't fit the system well. They've lost three in a row. One of them is their JV team against the Heat. So white. But what did they they I continue to say this is a team there. They cannot shoot from anywhere in two point range. They're 21st in two point shooting. Their rim paint game stinks. No one wants to shoot in the paint. You know who wants to shoot in the paint? Jonathan Kaminga. The best version of this team. Still needs him to contribute to it. I don't know man. I had shut the window on this team year and a half ago. Said it's over. They can't even with Butler, they can't win the title now and it's not setting up awesome for the post Steph life. Then I I unlatched it. I unlatched the window after their hot start. Like the window's still closed but I open up the latch where if I really want to lift it open, I can do it. Latch is back closed. Don't like what I'm seeing.
- [54:31]
B
The one kind of like fundamental truth I think over the last couple of years before the Jimmy Butler trade and still with Jimmy Butler on that roster is that they need needed and still need one of those young guys to finally pop consistently right. Like I think they were really high on pods and really thought like this is a guy who high basketball IQ and intuitive and is going to keep the ball moving and do the things that we like. In all true Fence.
- [54:57]
A
All true.
- [54:58]
B
Yeah. And. And if he could be that consistent guy, what did he. Didn't he say something in the preseason about like, you know, he wanted to be better than Steph Curry ultimately or something?
- [55:08]
A
I assume everything is fake, so I just assume everything is fake or taken out of context, including that.
- [55:15]
B
Yeah, that was a little bit out there and I never went to go look to see how valid of an account that was. But if Pods Pops as a ball handler, scorer, playmaker type who can do things when Steph's off the court, or when Steph and Jimmy Butler both off the court, then things are a little different. If Moses Moody were consistent, if Jonathan Kaminga were consistent, like one of these guys at least needed to really establish themselves. And here we are, however many years in for each of them, and it's still kind of up and down and still Steve could trust them one day and doesn't the next. It. It's a problem. The other thing I. I noticed earlier when I was looking all this up, devil, there's an 18 and a half point swing with Draymond on the court versus off. Like I. Because I was looking up Kurian off. And they're. They're a minus three when he sits and it's only. But it's a 5.7 point per 100 swing. It's an 18 plus swing with. With Draymond on versus off. That's rough. And they're just that front court and the center position, despite bringing in, you know, 72 year old Al Horford and. And trying to lean more on Quentin Post and everything else, they're just still very unsettled at center. And yeah, wild swings with this team. They. They won four of their first five, they lost four of their next five, then they won four of the next five, and now they've been going three since. So they're just all over the place.
- [56:41]
A
The Draymond thing is super interesting. I just looked up the numbers now and you're correct. However, their offensive rating with Draymond on The floor is 113 per 100 possessions, which would rank among teams that would rank 21st. Right? With the Clippers. They just have not been a good offensive team this year without Steph. And even with Steph, their offensive rating of 118 would rank among teams would rank like seventh, eighth. It's fine. It's good. Some of that is. The three point shooting will correct itself. They've been an average three point shooting team and some of their best shooters are not making shots Some of that is they'll get healthy. They're still, they're still plus 32 in 130 minutes with Curry, Butler, Green and Kaminga on the floor. They can't mothball that. They've got to keep trying it one way or another, maybe even start coming again because none of these other solutions look awesome. I just, the Draymond thing is interesting because I watched them and look, we all know he's been a low usage offensive player and a non shooter for, for a while. He's shooting 36 on threes this year and he's taking the most of his career per game, which is fine. He's got to take those shots if he's open. I guess 43% on twos is the lowest mark for him since his rookie year. And just anecdotally eye test, maybe it's the surrounding talent not making shots, maybe it's the total lack of a rim threat, maybe it's the fact that they're 29th and turnovers which the plays of insanity are back. That was the number one change when Butler came last year as their turnover rate with him on the floor suddenly went down. Way down. I just don't feel scared anymore watching them. When teams put their centers on Draymond and, and allow that Steph Draymond two man game to target opposing big men, I just don't feel like they're, they're punished. He's punishing them as much, they're punishing that kind of defense as much as they used to. And I don't quite know what to make of it, but it's just sort of one of my eye test takeaways. And look, you mentioned the young players being inconsistent, the fake two timelines plan they had moody, Kaminga, Pajemski, you know, other stuff. This was always what was going to happen. Like the young guys are not going to get, are not going to be fully ready in time for the old guys and that's what's happening. And I do, I think this team's better than this. I, I was way high. I, I took the over at 47 and a half wins. Obviously they are 500 right now on pace for 41 but it just feels like every year now Kerr is throwing lineups at the wall ever within games and just can't figure out how to get this personnel to sing for more than 10, 15 games in a row. And now obviously last season when they got Butler, it sung. And that's sort of what I'm clinging to is my Expectation. I think this is still a very, a good team that's going to be better than this. But again, like their whole thing is we have to go through the play in every year. We can't afford to do that. We're going to come out guns blazing, open the season strong, get into the top six. We just. It's too hard to go through the play. It's too risky to go through the play and. And then too hard to play the high seeds on the road over and over again. Guess where they're looking at right now? Same. Same life. Okay. Any other warriors thoughts? No. Good. I'm sorry to do this. I really, truly am. We have to talk about the wizards, who are 1 in 15. They are being outscored by 16.2 points per game. The all time worst scoring margin for a full season is 15.2 by the 1993 Mavericks who went 1171. They've already lost once to the Nets and the Hornets. They play Indiana this week. Indiana is 2 and 14. That's an away game for the Wizards. They play the Bucks without Giannis in a week. They have Memphis and Charlotte on the road before Christmas. If they go like 1 and 3 in those games or 2 and 2 or maybe if they even don't. 9:73 is officially in play. We are on whiz watch right now. As for the worst team in the history of the NBA, they are so bad. They're 27th in offense, 30th dead last in defense. And I guess my, like, I love Sar has been great. George is very good, fine. Trey Johnson's missed the last few games. I've liked what I've seen from him. Like their young guys are kind of fun and obviously they're playing for the draft. I just don't know. Like, even bad teams sometimes you can look and see. Okay, that's what this is kind of what they're about. This is the identity they're shooting for. This is the one thing they've decided to be good at. I watch the Wizards and I'm like, I don't even have any clue, like what is the organizing principle of this team. And maybe it doesn't matter because they're just so young and they're not trying to win. Maybe it doesn't matter because the aging veterans on the team, McCollum and Middleton have been like, frankly, not very good. And in Middleton's case, looking very old and not playing half the games. They don't have a point guard like at all that plays A.J. johnson's out of the rotation. Keyshawn George is kind of their point guard sometimes and he's not a point guard the column and can kind of masquerade as one too. Bub Carrington, like completely lost. I have no idea what Bud Carrington is on the ball, off the ball and I'm getting a little nervous. I just, I get it, I get it. But two things here, number one, nine and 73, worst team ever, completely in play. Like the watch is on number two. Although I like some of the young talent, they really need the lottery to help them in one of these drafts and it helped them with sars pick. And it is interesting to go back and look. You know when you see Abdia thriving with the Blazers. That was a polarizing trade. I've talked about it a lot. I liked it a little bit less for the Wizards than most of my front office sources did and a little bit more for the Blazers. But you know, they got Bub Carrington, they got a couple seconds and they got a first round pick in 2029 that's going to be the second best of the Boston, Milwaukee, Portland picks. So it could be good pick, could be whatever. They didn't end up with much for Porzingis. Just a bunch of role players who got sort of funneled around the league for second round picks. They didn't end up with too much for Kuzma who his contract is okay. They do have a first round swap in 2028 that isn't great. And this idea that like Kuzma said like vetoed a trade to the Mavericks that would have gotten them like better return, I just don't buy that at all. Like I don't buy that he didn't want to. I buy maybe that he didn't want to go to the Mavericks. I don't buy that. That like why do the cold hearted Wizards who just lived through a no trade clause, hell with Bradley Beal, why do they care about anything but the best return? Like something about that story never added up to me. The gaffer trade, they did fine. Then you get like RUI 3 second round picks and Kendrick Nun. They did great on the be trade. Great on the gaffer trade. They got nothing for Valent unis. They actually waived City Ssoko in that who they got in that trade who's now starting for the Blazers temporarily. It's, it's not like awesome. It's not awesome. But I do like some of the young players. I just, I just don't know what they are. And the, the lack Of a point guard, of any repute, an organizer on offense is just, it's tough to watch, man. It's not, it's, it's not a great watch.
- [64:28]
B
Of all the transactions you went through, one other one worth noting. They waived Ryan Rollins.
- [64:34]
A
That's right. I forgot about that.
- [64:35]
B
In January of 2024, Ryan Rollins came to them as a throw in, completely a throw in, in the Jordan pool trade. And they waived him a few months later. As Wizards fans are quick to tell me, every time I've mentioned this, they hit me on blue sky saying, yeah, they waved him because of a shoplifting incident. Okay, I get it. They waved him after a shoplifting incident.
- [64:57]
A
What did he shoplift?
- [64:59]
B
Like less than a thousand dollars worth of stuff from a Target or something?
- [65:03]
A
I mean, that's less than $1,000. That's shoplifting. That's a big, I don't know.
- [65:07]
B
I, I'm not saying he should, like, you know, you know, walk free. Like, you know, the crime is the crime. But like, teams have overlooked much more glaring and troubling infractions by players over time if they thought they were talented enough to help them. So I'm not, I'm not knocking them for taking a stand on principle or saying character or whatever it was at the time, but dude looks like a really, really nice player now in Milwaukee, is having a breakout season, looks like an absolutely legit player. And those are the calculations you have to make sometimes. And if you're a rebuilding, not just rebuilding a tear down a tanking team, then every possible young prospect who has an upside, you need to make sure you have maximized before you've moved on from them. And so that's a mistake. It just is. And I, I, I, I get the context of, of why they waived him when they did, but I'm sorry, it's, it's, it's looking at it now. And yes, I have the benefit of hindsight. Ryan Rollins looks like a player now that you have to chalk that up as, as a mistake. And the Denny Abdia deal, which I think you and I kind of alluded to last time I was on, like, he was starting to have a breakout with the Wizards, like, that was, it was coming. You could already see like the outline of this player coming before they traded him. And, and again, if you're a young rebuilding team, it depends on how deeply into the ditch you want to steer. But, like, could you have still been a tanking team with Denny Abdia on board? Probably. Last thought, hashtag free CJ McCollum he deserves better than this at this stage of his career. Like, let the guy go live his life somewhere where, you know, they're, they're not going to challenge the Sixers all time record for losses.
- [66:53]
A
Okay, fine. Free CJ shooting 41. Look on Abdia, I said this at the time, I was so fascinated by that trade. I asked, I don't know, let's say 20 front office people. What do you, what do you think? And I would say 2/3 of them. I've estimated this roughly 60%. 2/3, whatever. Said, you know what? Abdi is good, but when you're, when you're the Blazers, you shouldn't be in the business of trading first bites, bites at the lottery apple, even for good players. And I was like, Abdia's like good and young and is on this crazy good contract. I guess I kind of just like the idea of having good players. And we just, I don't know how many times teams are going to have to learn this lesson about the new lottery odds. Are they going to be shocked every time a team jumps from 7th, 8th, 10th to 1st or 2nd? Because you can have the worst record in the league, you have a 48% chance of landing the fifth of the fifth pick in the draft and a 14% chance of landing the first pick. Now you're guaranteed top five. And maybe this is the rare draft where you're just psyched whether it's 1 to 5. If you have the third worst record in the league, you have a 26 chance at the sixth pick, 15 chance at the fifth pick, 7% chance at the seventh pick, and on from there. Like you really kind of have to be one of the two worst teams in the league. And even then the lottery gods may not frown, it may not smile upon you. And I was talking about this with the, relative to the Mavericks, with somebody this week talking about Anthony Davis trades. And this person was saying, front office person was saying, well, the Mavericks can't, like, what's the point of tanking for them? Because they're never going to catch the Nets, the Pacers, the Wizards, the Pelicans, this holy quartet of tank tasticness. And I'm like, okay, like maybe, But a, you're five now, they're five and 13, so like they're not super far ahead of those teams. B, the Pacers and the Pelicans, if they got healthier and the Pacers are now getting healthy, could normalize into like just normal good team bad teams rather instead of just the atrociously Bad team, so we'll see. But the Wizards, man, it's not. It's not. It's just a parade to the rim on, on when they're on defense. And Bob Carrington, who came over in.
- [69:24]
B
The Avdia trade, technically, that was, that.
- [69:26]
A
Was the pick that got conveyed among I think. 150 players who have run at least, I think I put it at 50. Pick and rolls. He is 143rd in points per possession directly out of those plays. So he shoots or somebody. One passed away shoots. And 148th out of 150 in points per possession overall. Again, he ain't passing anyone who scares you. So there's a lot. There's like all sorts of confounding factors. He's not making shots. I don't know what he is on the ball. I don't know what he is off the ball. They are 24th in drives per 100 possessions. You would think a young, energetic team would be like high in drives. They just don't have any competent veteran ball, any ball handling at all other than the veterans who are kind of more, you know, older guys at this point. It's just the depressing, depressing watch. But maybe they'll make some history this year. I hate their gold uniforms too. By the way. Where are the cherry blossoms? Where are the cherry blossoms? You had one good thing happened to you in five years and you threw it in the garbage. Where are they? I think, I think they may come back at one, at one future season.
- [70:39]
B
One thing about the challenging for the, the all time, you know, futility record, you know, the Sixers, we thought were going to do it back during the, the, the Sam Hinkey era. They ended up just missing. They ended up at 10 and 72 in the 2015-16 season. So sometimes it looks super bleak. Like, I mean, we thought that team was going to win like six games or something. So who knows? Like, the Wizards may reel off a few here and there and avoid it. Also on the table right now because they've lost 14 in a row. The record is 28 in a row. There are ways from that, but that is shared by two teams. That was last by the Pistons in 20, 23, 24, lost 28 in a row. The Sixers during the Process era, lost 28 in a row across two seasons. So that's, that's a little different. I'd put an asterisk on that. So really, really, the, the Wizards are chasing the pistons for the 28 in a row.
- [71:32]
A
It's the Pistons winning 28 in a row. Losing was. Losing 20 in a row was basically yesterday. That's how recently that was. It feels like that was 10 years ago. Monty Williams, Killian Hayes, what's happening here? That was two seasons ago. And they are now leading the Eastern Conference and on a massive win streak. That's. People are not that. That brief era of Pistons basketball will not be looked back on kindly. Howard Beck, anything else?
- [72:07]
B
We covered a lot.
- [72:08]
A
There's a lot going on. What did we miss going on?
- [72:10]
B
It's Thanksgiving and it's Thanksgiving week. Are you going, does the family do the parade or anything? We're going to be at the parade for like the 20th consecutive. Not 20th, about like 15th consecutive year. We started taking our daughter when she was like four and it just became a thing. Even though I was always kind of like a non parade person prior to that.
- [72:27]
A
Maybe this will be one of my next Zach's Insights to Mediocrity. We're trying to get Mike Torico to come interview me for Insights to Mediocrity, but I hate parades. I think parades suck.
- [72:37]
B
They're, they're absolutely ridiculous. I never enjoyed them. But when you, when you have a kid, as we both do, you know, you start doing things for them and then it just suddenly like, it, it, it, it becomes a thing and it became tradition for us. So we will be sitting there somewhere off Central park on Thursday morning and then we'll go visit our friends up in Westchester County. And so I hope that's.
- [72:58]
A
No, I hope, I hope it's not cold for you.
- [73:01]
B
We, we have been there when it's been like a blistering like 10 degrees before and it is highly, highly unpleasant. By the way, you mentioned Tariko, which reminded me of new NBA partners, which reminds me. Congrats on the prime gig. That's fantastic.
- [73:15]
A
Yeah, we're talking about, we're talking about Amazon prime wants to franchise Insights into Mediocrity and to just make it a whole, a whole streaming show. Oh, shoplifting reminded me of a story, by the way. One of my great moments as a high school teacher, an educator.
- [73:32]
B
Frankly, I'm glad this didn't involve you. Shoplifting. I was.
- [73:34]
A
No, I was one of like eight faculty members who chaperoned the band trip to Florida, Universal Studios Florida, from New Jersey. A 24 hour bus ride, not a great time. And a student was caught shoplifting from the gift shop, one of the many gift shops at Universal. And me and my friend Tim, fellow colleague, we had to run into the bowels of Universal Studios into the security apparatus where he was in, like, a holding area. And I just remember. And the whole bus was waiting to go to the next thing for this kid who had shoplifted a freaking bracelet. I remember putting my teacher id, my Creskill junior senior high school teacher ID up on the window of this guy's cell. And I felt for a fleeting second like Fox Mulder holding up an FBI badge. We're like, this is it. We got to get this kid out. And we got him out. It was a great moment. All right, Howard Beck, enjoy the parade. I will see you soon. Thank you, sir.
- [74:31]
B
Thanks, Zach. Take care.
- [74:34]
C
This episode is brought to you by Salty Cheesy Cheez It Crackers. Should this whole podcast just be me eating Cheez It? That would be a top notch podcast. You could hear them crunching in my mouth. You could think about how salty and savory and delicious they are. You can just get Cheez it on the brain. Oh, man, those Cheez it cravings, they get you. Anyway, what was I talking about?
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B
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C
Oh, Cheez It. Yeah. Cheez it crackers. Go check them out. So good, so good, so good.
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C
My Nordstrom credit card total queen treatment.
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B
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A
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B
Copyright 2025 Agave Loco Brands, Pojoaquee, Wisconsin.
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C
All rights reserved.
- [75:58]
A
Look who's here. Bill Simmons.
- [76:01]
C
Wow.
- [76:01]
A
The book of basketball had to have you on today because Chris Paul, the point God, announced he's retiring at the end of this glorious Los Angeles Clippers season. You wrote the book. Literally. And there's been a lot going on. The top three point guard, no brainer. What's his place in history? This and that. There's nobody better to do this with than you. So, Chris Paul, it finally happened.
- [76:23]
C
As you know, it pains me to watch bad historical NBA Takes hurts me to no end. Just people discounting the first 20 years of the league. Bob Koozie apparently doesn't matter that he was the most important basketball player the league had for the first 15 years of the league. The best showman. Won MVPs, won multiple. Multiple titles. With Russell. We just throw that out. Yeah, I don't.
- [76:46]
A
I.
- [76:46]
C
There's no. There's no case for me, for him to be one of the five best point guards. Unless you're going to take Isaiah's spot away. And I guess that's the debate. Can we talk about whether Curry was actually a point guard? Because I think that's an interesting topic.
- [77:00]
A
Well, sure, but let me. Let me introduce Chris Paul first.
- [77:05]
C
Yeah, let's do that.
- [77:06]
A
Okay. I was a longtime listener of you and Rosillo together. I know the depths of Rosillo's Chris Paul fandom, and I am very close to that level of Chris Paul fandom. The point God. I have called him the basketball junkies. Basketball star for a long time. An unflinching perfectionist who rung every bit of efficiency out of every moment, within every possession. Something you have to do when you're six feet tall. Maybe the only player that I can remember who cajoled a referee into calling a technical because a player on the other team had his jersey untucked. And of course, it was at a critical moment of the game. I love Chris Paul. I've always loved Chris Paul as a player. So this one is. This one is tough for me. The retirement, the end being here. I'm not, you know, I'm going to miss Chris Paul.
- [77:55]
C
You feel old? Do you feel like you're. This says something about you, too. You were a young pup when Chris Paul came in the league. You weren't even really an NBA reporter yet.
- [78:03]
A
Yeah, we're going to talk about Chris Paul. Like 2008-2011, when the knee injuries were just starting or hadn't really hit yet. That dude could freaking fly. And we're going to talk about that guy, the mvp. But obviously, you know, all time great player. No championships, signature playoff moment on the good side. Basically a buzzer beater to win game seven of a first round series against the San Antonio Spurs. Defending champion San Antonio Spurs. The greatest first round series ever played. A first round series still. Nonetheless, not a second round series. Not conference finals. Etc.
- [78:36]
C
Greatest moment in Clippers history as well. Like, for real. Not even close. Definitely 100% the greatest moment in Clippers history.
- [78:44]
A
What's. We don't need to do the Clippers detour.
- [78:47]
C
I'm just telling you it's number one and I don't even know if we can get to five.
- [78:52]
A
The Terrence Mann game is like top three.
- [78:55]
B
Sure.
- [78:57]
A
All time low moment. 2014 Game 5 Thunder Clippers Conference Semifinals 22 Clippers blow a seven point lead with 49 seconds left in a game where the series was there for the taking. And Chris Paul is at the center of like 17 different things that go wrong in the last 45 seconds of that game.
- [79:16]
C
But you have to team that with the collapse against Houston a year later. 2014 was on really him. It's one of the worst moments any superstar has ever had in a big game. And especially how much that game meant what it did to the rest of the series. And the fact that it was him of all people, the most efficient point guard of all time, the leader, the floor general and he just completely self combusted first though trying to draw the foul. Just turns the ball over, fouls Westbrook on a three and then they still have the ball with a chance. I can't remember if it was to take to take the lead or to tie the game. But they have the ball, he's got it and he just loses the ball. I mean it's, it is one of the worst three play sequences ever. Isaiah had his version of it which was Bird steals the ball and this was just as bad.
- [80:02]
A
Yeah, it's all, it's all three of them are Chris and it's the first one which really starts the whole thing.
- [80:09]
C
The turnover next year the worst collapse I've ever seen in person in a basketball game against the Rockets. And he's out there for that too.
- [80:16]
A
But the turnover, trying to game the system to get a three shot foul instead of a two shot foul. What all you need to do is get fouled to go the line ice the game is the ultimate best and worst of Chris Paul rolled into one play trying to outsmart the game, trying to gain an extra bit when you didn't really need it and it backfires hellaciously. But you know we are talking about a guy who 12 time all star, 11 time all NBA, nine times all defense. An all time great player. No question. And in terms of the point guard I've mentioned before, I saw a tweet going around like no brainer. Top three point guard of all time. I'm like in a world where Magic Johnson, Steph Curry and Oscar Robertson exists, crack in the top three is, is going to be pretty tough if not.
- [81:02]
C
Pretty tough it's if not impossible.
- [81:04]
A
If not possible.
- [81:05]
C
I don't think Curry's a point guard. He cannot. Chris Paul is not in that territory with those three guys, period. End of story. And I. And I love Chris Paul. And I have him 32nd in my pyramid. And I have him as the. I had the five levels of my book level. The pantheon was the highest level. I had him level three. And now he's really the last guy, Level three, right ahead of Stockton. Level four is different. Like, level four are guys who were the best guy on teams that won titles or guys that were just transcendent in some way but were part of championship teams. And he can't say it, unfortunately.
- [81:38]
A
I mean, we can sit here and talk about the definition of a point guard. Steph, I mean, is not a traditional point guard. And the way he moves off the ball, that shooting is his primary number one skill and all that. But. And then we could go down a whole side road into like, what is James Harden, what is Luka Doncic, what is LeBron James?
- [81:54]
C
But it's a different position because we're. We were trained growing up. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Point guard, shooting guard, small forward, power forward, center. Now you have like the. I call them zero guards, where it's just like, what. What are they? They have the ball, the time. They're not necessarily out there to make people look better, to elevate other people as much as like, the offense kind of revolves around what they do. And that's. But Curry's more point guard than shooting guard. But he's just. Chris was a completely different player. It's really hard to compare them.
- [82:24]
A
I think totally different player. But I'm going to class. Go ahead and classify Steph as a point guard.
- [82:29]
C
Fair.
- [82:30]
A
And you know, his. His ball movement and the way he draws two to him off the ball is almost like drawing two on the ball and working as a passer. It's just a different way of freeing people up. And if we do classify him as a point guard, Magic is Magic. Five titles. Steph is Steph. Four titles. And Oscar Robertson. You know, you. When people say top three point guard, top three poker, they're just omitting 26, 000 points. 26 points a game, seven rebounds, 10 assists. Like, huge for his position and could impose his size in. In different ways that Chris Paul never could. I mean, the guy's a revolutionary NBA player. And I don't know where you have him ranked, but he ranks above Chris Paul and therefore he. Chris Paul's ceiling As an all time point guard is number four. And that's where it starts to get interesting.
- [83:17]
C
Yeah, Oscar's in the pantheon, Cousy. All the stuff he did in his career and how important he was. And I get it. We get older and you. When we. This is our second crack at taping this segment. In the first one I talked about how if you took Reed shepherd right now and you just put him into 1956, people in 1956 wouldn't believe what was happening. Like they would have never seen anything like this. I still have Koozie and Isaiah ahead of Chris because of the, the titles, the success. And I think Isaiah from 87, 88, 89, 90, the arguably the best east team, they should have won that series. I think the 88 Lakers and the 2013 spurs, the two teams that came the closest to win 88, 88 Pistons, sorry. And the 2014 spurs, the two teams that came closest to winning the title without winning the title. And then he went back to back as the best guy and a guy who. I think the case with Isaiah, you can't use basketball reference. I've talked about this. He could have scored 29, 30 points a game for 10 straight years and did not want to do that. And there is an awesome book written about this called the Franchise, about how those Pistons teams were put together. The way Isaiah thought about being the best guy on a team, what he had to do. And I always thought Chris was the 2.0 version of him in a lot of ways where he wanted everybody else to be involved for 42 minutes and then the last six minutes was kind of his time. Right. And that's the true point guard. And those are the guys that I just. We talked about though, when we did take one of this, like, who are the guys now who are wired that way? And like it's basically the future of the point guard position is in Darius Garland's hands.
- [85:00]
A
That's.
- [85:01]
C
That's the only guy we could really think of who has all the old school DNA for it.
- [85:05]
A
Yeah, first of all, it's good we're taping this again because I think the first taping had so many Reed shepherd mentions from you that Kankanipple's family was getting uncomfortable and jealous at this at the same time.
- [85:16]
C
That's true.
- [85:17]
A
But yeah, we talked about like, who is the closest analog to this pass first, you know, Stockton, whatever kind of point guard. And we both instantly landed among like high level players on Garland more than anybody else. And you know, you. And then Halliburton I think, is the other one. We kind of, you know, he's injured, he's sort of out of sight, out of mind. And he is a little taller and moves a little differently and is like just a different sort of frenetic off, get off the ball, get back on it, move around kind of point guard. But he, he sort of fits the bill.
- [85:49]
C
And with Garland, the shame with Garland, which is good for him because he's been on good teams, but you know, he's on Mitchell's team. We don't see him with the ball at the same time like it would. He would have been a really fun spurs piece. They went for Fox instead and Garland wasn't available, but to kind of give him his own team and engine. But yeah, these, the guys that come in, in the league now are built like. Dylan Harper is a great example. I don't really know what Dylan Harper is. I love Dylan Harper. He can play without the ball, he can play with the ball. He's got size, he's a scorer, but he's not like the Isaiah Thomas kind of DNA type guys. And when I was growing up, there's a million of these guys. We had Mo Cheeks with Tiny Archibald with Eddie Johnson. We had. Who is the guy? Kevin Porter. John Lucas was great at this. Isaiah, obviously, but Michael, Ray Richardson, there were all these dudes who, you give them the car keys, they drove the car, they got everybody involved. And then the position has shifted a little bit. And Chris was, I think one of the reasons he was called the point guard was he was the last kind of piece of this legacy, right? You look at who he came into the league, who his class was, Westbrook, Derrick Rose, these people that were like scorers and point guards at the same time. Chris was always. His best game, was always like 16 points, 13 assists. He was 8 for 12, 3 steals. Somebody on his team had 39 points because. Mostly because Chris was getting him the points. But that's. He was, he was a driver of a fancy car.
- [87:21]
A
Let's, let's just go through the playoff stuff because to me, Chris is in the bucket with. It's a very. With, with all due respect to Russell Westbrook and Gary Payton, who are both great, but I think class a little bit below this conversation, there's this bucket of guys of cp, Nash, Stockton, Isaiah, Thomas, Jason Kidd, those five guys, all.
- [87:46]
C
Of who brought something different as like their main strength to the table. Which is why it's fun to throw those five together.
- [87:53]
A
Isaiah, two championships and a finals mvp. That's you know Jason Kidd has the one title is more of a supporting player but Isaiah sort of winning at the highest level. Has all these guys beat Nash kids.
- [88:07]
C
Kid with the two straight finals was I on a team where the what the second best guy was Kenya Martin. The third best guy was totally Mutombo. The fourth best guy was Carrie Kittles.
- [88:18]
A
Totally transformed Amora Bun franchise in one of the all time great trades. From the Nets perspective anyway was at his prime the most terrifying fast break force in the in the entire league.
- [88:31]
C
And two and an unbelievable defender in the running for best defender of that position right behind Peyton nine time all.
- [88:38]
A
Defensive player Jason kidding Chris Paul also nine times. And by the way those two finals the Nets look the Lakers ran them over. That Lakers team ran any everybody over in the playoff.
- [88:47]
C
Spurs did not.
- [88:48]
A
Spurs was 42 and pretty close to going 7 with Duncan you know Apex Tim Duncan getting involved.
- [88:56]
C
All tapes have been destroyed. That game was. That game was. That series was hard on the eyes. Not a lot of fun memories of the 03 finals.
- [89:05]
A
Nash obviously no, no titles. Stockton no titles. But Nash two regular season MVPs and as you've pointed out like spearheaded an iconic team that changed the NBA and that has to matter.
- [89:19]
C
And also like I came along at a time when the league desperately needed a player in a team like that. It was, it was. The league was. The scoring was way down. The one on one stuff was the worst that had ever been. And we just didn't have any teams that kind of looked like once the Weber and the Kings fell apart and once Nash left the Mavs we really needed a team that's just like. That's a really fun team. I'm excited. They're on TV tonight. Nick kind of had that. That Mantle for what, six years all the way through 2010.
- [89:49]
A
All right, can I put my Chris Paul Stan hat on for a couple minutes here?
- [89:52]
C
Let's hear it. I'm just gonna sit back and drink from my David Robinson dream team cup. Holding it up for you.
- [90:00]
A
It's a good. You got. You got the whole set. I've had. I don't remember last time I was at your house. Which one I got. I was. I was just given one and I remember being unhappy with it. I don't remember.
- [90:09]
C
I think I might have given you Malone and you took it personally.
- [90:14]
A
Stockton's. Stockton's co star Apropos look Chris Paul. The playoff track record is going to be a big talking point here. I would argue if I went. I did this. I did A piece when they made the finals in Phoenix in 2021. I went back through all Chris Paul's history. Why it meant so much for him to reach the finals at that point in his career for the first time and what this chance to win a title meant for him. There are a ton of like Chris Paul's just last five minutes of close games record. Other than that one game is pretty unassailable regular season and playoffs. He's one of the greatest regular season crunchdown players of all time. Period. I did the math, I did the deep dive. I had ESPN stats go back and look at it. It's like unassailable. Part of the reason by the way never turned the ball over was a low turnover. Just efficiency machine which makes the 2014.
- [91:07]
C
OKC game so crazy. It's not such an outlier in so many different ways.
- [91:12]
A
But I'm going to keep keep doing the stand thing for a minute in the playoffs. Lots of big shots in Chris Paul's dossier including a playoff series winning game seven winning buzzer beater. Most of them are in the first round. First round just. It doesn't mean as much. Sorry. It just. It just doesn't. It just is what it is. 2014. We don't need to belabor it. It was really, really bad. Chris Paul has played his entire career in the Western Conference during a. During a two decade run of total Western Conference domination.
- [91:45]
C
You're really standing it up now.
- [91:46]
A
I'm standing it up.
- [91:47]
C
You didn't do this the first time we taped this.
- [91:49]
A
So just let's. Let's go.
- [91:50]
C
Let's extra stand it.
- [91:51]
A
Let's go through the like I've worked. I know the limitations. I get being a six foot point guard. It's tough. Let's say they win against The Thunder in 2014. Waiting on the other end is the spurs who rampaged through the playoffs and won the title.
- [92:08]
C
They always played the spurs okay though in that stretch.
- [92:11]
A
2015 you're referencing the Rockets 31 fall from ahead all time ugly.
- [92:18]
C
The worst playoff moment, the worst collapse I've ever seen. And waiting for them was a pretty young warriors team that wasn't even though they won 67 wasn't pretty good. I know but wasn't positive they could put the we. None of us were positive they could put those four rounds together. All the old school NBA guys were like you can't win a title. Shooting jump shots.
- [92:38]
A
They too small. Happening they too small.
- [92:40]
C
Memphis goes up to one right. We had concerns in the, in the Clippers who had beaten them the year before, I think would have been pretty comfortable going against them. They didn't really have a bench. They were putting a lot of miles on Blake Griffin at that point. But I, you know, I think it would have been a really good series.
- [92:58]
A
Could have been. They also were down 2:1 to the Cavaliers in the finals without Kyrie Irving and Kevin. Love those warriors teams, but okay, the Rocket series. First of all, Chris Paul missed the first two games because he was dealing with an injury. He played that last game against the spurs on like one and a half legs. He missed the first two games. Games. Second of all, last three games, game five, obviously they're all losses. 22 and 10 on nine of 16. Game six, 31 and 11 on 10 of 19. Game seven, 26 and 10 on nine of 20. I would argue not the problem for the Clippers in. In the Rockets collapse. But he's. He's on the team. He has to own that. And then other years, like there's just injuries galore across the Clippers thing. The Suns Bucks finals is. Is a strange one. As you've talked about.
- [93:47]
C
It's, well, the worst ones. 18 is the word. 18 is the one you can't ding him on because he gets hurt. Right as they're winning game five. And it was the classic. We were driving the car 110 miles an hour with the RPMs at 5. Let's hope we can get to Vegas without the car breaking down. And they were like in that part of the drive where you can see the. The crappier casinos before you get to Vegas. And he broke down and they couldn't sustain it. But that team won 65 games. And you know, I know that's the team. When Darrell's on his deathbed, that'll be the series he thinks about other than wondering why Ben Simmons couldn't make a free throw anymore.
- [94:26]
A
Or pass the ball to Matisse Thibel. You're talking about the 2018 rockets built to play. The warriors switch everything. Play P.J. tucker at center. Chris and James Harden together. Chris Paul pulls his hamstring at the very end of game five with the Rockets going up three two. They have home court advantage. They have game seven at home. Andre Guadala also hurt in that series, too. But they lose game six and game seven. Game seven is the one. They miss a gazillion threes in a row. 27 in a row.
- [94:54]
C
I think that was the missed three weekend because that was when the Celtics missed 133s in game seven against Cleveland.
- [95:02]
A
Easily could have won the title that year. Didn't win the title. So that this is me standing for a guy who's going to get dinged as never won the big one. And defining moment, arguably a blunder, a series of blunders, one as bad as the other. But you know, when you stack him up against these guys, it, you know that's going to be the Isaiah Thomas trump card. Jason Kidd trump card. I, I think there's a case when you consider how great he was defensively compared to someone like Nash, how he was a more prolific scorer than either Stockton or Kidd and the longevity stats that he has over Isaiah Thomas. And you're going to point out that Isaiah played in a much more physical era, which is not kind to small guards in terms of their longevity. I think you could, you could make. And the advanced stats, of course love Chris Paul. And you're going to tell me to throw those out. You know, I get it.
- [95:58]
C
Well, I already told you this in the first time we recorded well. And I also was lost to history.
- [96:03]
A
You are the.
- [96:03]
C
I think you destroyed the tapes.
- [96:05]
A
You are the. I didn't.
- [96:06]
C
I.
- [96:09]
A
You are the perfect amount of years older than me.
- [96:11]
C
Yeah.
- [96:12]
A
To have actually appreciated Isaiah Thomas in real time. I'm 48, so I was, you know, 8, 10, 11, 12, 13 when the Pistons are dominating the East. So like I'm watching but not with the kind of eye that you older than I am are watching. I, I need to go back and watch some of those Isaiah games again because 87 to 90, just a, a dominant, dominant team that easily could have won three titles and easily could have.
- [96:40]
C
Three peated from the runo was two and a half.
- [96:43]
A
Yeah.
- [96:44]
C
And they, and they end up winning too. And his. What he did in game six against the Lakers with the sprained ankle is one of the great moments in the history of the league. I just think he was a better scorer when he had to be than Chris was. They were equally tough, they were equally tenacious and crazy. And the difference is in Isaiah's era, nobody shot threes. Isaiah led the league one year shooting 29 from three, which is crazy. That was the league leading percentage and everything had to be around the rim or little pull ups and they would just, they would just beat the hell out of anybody. Right. And I think one of the things that's crazy about Stockton and Chris Paul compared to everybody else was the just all these point guards would die after 12, 13 years. It was like their careers were over and you could, it's like going off a cliff. Little guys, their bodies would break down. Chris Body certainly broke down in a bunch of playoffs. Chris's longevity, the thing that really helped this case. We did the Book of Basketball pod about him, and I think I had him 42 and we did that. The Sun's playoff run reinvented him a little bit, because what he was able to do at that age, he's in his mid-30s at that point, and he's second best guy on a finals team. Now you go back and you actually dig into the 21 finals and what was it? Round one, Davis gets hurt midway through the series when he's just torching the Suns. Round two, they played Denver, Jamal Murray's gone. Round three, they play the Clippers. They just lost Kawhi, right? And that's, that's really probably the closest the Clippers got to making a finals was that team. And then they go against Milwaukee in round four. But it was a great run. It cemented him. It cemented him as a top 35 guy. I think it vaulted him past Stockton for me. But they didn't win. And unfortunately for him, the question I have with him, he had the ball all the time, especially when it got to these let's finish the game kind of moments. Was he the guy you wanted finishing the game, or did he have to rely on somebody else to kind of get you over the hump? Whereas Isaiah could finish the game. We talked about when we did this the first time Chris had that, that, that just that shot that nobody figured out how to block for what, 18, 20 years, the left to right stop at the right side of the foul line, jumper falling away. And he just made that for almost two decades. And nobody knew it was coming ever, for some reason, even though anyone watching knew it was coming. So that was kind of his go to thing. But I think the smarter teams would put bigger guys on them or they would kind of plant in that spot and at some point he would have to rely on somebody else. And it usually didn't go well.
- [99:29]
A
Putting size on him was, was a trump card. That started like Tony Allen had some success against him in those epic Memphis Clippers slugfests. And it was just. This is just life as a smaller point guard. If you can envelope him in size, it's harder for him to get that shot off. He's got to fade an extra little bit, tilt an extra a little bit on that snaking.
- [99:49]
C
What do you think he was? 5 11. What's he actually. 5 11.
- [99:54]
A
I'm 5, 11 and 3 quarters. I try to claim 6ft and I'm not. I've stood next to Chris Paul many times. I think I'm like as tall as Chris Paul.
- [100:03]
C
I think he's five' eleven. I've stood. I'm six' one and a half. And I felt like I was two inches taller than him.
- [100:09]
A
But.
- [100:10]
C
But this is one of the things with point guards, like the wear and tear of that position with these little guys. And he broke down. You mentioned how he was hurt in 2015, came back 2018. He was hurt. He was.
- [100:23]
A
There's a. Yeah, there's a Clippers playoffs. It was either 16 or 17 where him. And it's him and Blake at the same time.
- [100:31]
C
There's some. There's a couple you met you. You kind of zipped through the playoffs. But they're up three, two against the spurs in 08. They blew game six against Memphis in 12. They lost four straight to Memphis in 13. They lost a game seven home in 17. G20, 19, no KD. They lose five and six to Golden State without KD. That was bad.
- [100:53]
A
That was an embarrassing. It felt like it was kind of over for that iteration of the Rockets anyway. And you know, there was. Shelf life is the wrong word. Chris. Chris is an unrelenting perfectionist.
- [101:09]
C
And.
- [101:11]
A
It, you know, it wasn't for everybody. I think it wasn't for everybody.
- [101:15]
C
For demanding.
- [101:16]
A
Demanding. I, you know, it's like if you have people in your life who are telling you all the ways you're doing something wrong all the time, they might be right every time. And Chris is right 99% of the time. It's like you just go through these days, like not today. Like, I don't want to, I don't want to hear anymore today. Just let, just let me, just let me slide for a day. And he just would never let it slide. But okay. So in terms of like, I mean, I think I would take him. This is just. We're just doing this day of. Yeah. Deeper dives to come. I think I would take him over Nash. I, I just think peak Chris Paul nine times, all defense. You talk about these little guards who just like get up in your. If you were a bigger guy trying to post him up, just get under you, get, get your hit, get his hand on the ball. Just be annoying. Pete. Chris Paul is a two way player. I think I'm taking a little bit above Nash and a little bit above Stockton and I think even a little bit above Kid. Despite the size advantage Kid had over him something that Jay could use it occasionally working out of the post, working inside out, but not like, not at a domineering level. Isaiah is where it gets tough because of the playoff success. But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe. I mean, Stockton all time leader.
- [102:34]
C
I think you're right on those.
- [102:35]
A
But think I'm right on those.
- [102:37]
C
Well, because here's the thing. Kid got traded two times before and as he was hitting his prime one for some off the court stuff, I think Chris Paul, if the New Orleans thing doesn't play out the way it does, he just. Nobody's traded that dude for 12 years. It's like a miracle to have a guy like that on the team. Just like Utah never would trade Stockton, Detroit never would have traded Isaiah Nash. Dallas now, Nash went up a level after Dallas got rid of him, but Phoenix and Dallas did trade Nash. So I, you know, I just feel like Chris was always unassailable. You knew he was the guy. It's funny, there was this weird Darren Williams rivalry for a while where there was like, Remember that was an argument. I was always in the Chris camp, but there was some Darren Williams people.
- [103:21]
A
Because Utah owned them head to head. It was part of the.
- [103:24]
C
Yeah, yeah. I'll say this because I feel like I've been slightly too negative and I don't want to be negative on Chris Paul because I loved watching him. And when he showed up in the Clippers, it was just incredible watching him going to the games. The thing that stood out versus league pass and just watching someone on TV was the how much he cared about the minutiae of everything happening in a game, how demanding he was, how the way he would work, the refs, the coach. He always seemed like he was in a bad mood. I remember writing a column about him. So I just, I was so transfixed watching him, how he would get this look on his face every once in a while and you'd be like, oh boy, here we go. And he would just start stomping around and he just would go into this competitive, crazy fury in a good way. And it was just like the guy was a borderline psycho. Like, just really wanted to win at the expense of everything. That was great. That same 2012 Olympics, which is one of the best games I've ever been to. When they beat Spain, gold medal, LeBron's on waiting to come in for five minutes. They were four minutes. They can't get him in because the thing, at some point it was like, wow, we might lose this game. Who do we totally trust completely and one of the only things I knew is like I just want Chris Paul to be in charge of everything. Can Chris Paul just run this? Can he just be in charge? And I think that matters. I think the 2012 sun staying, which Nash was never able to really pull off in 2010, right. He came to like the old point guard kind of pulling a team 20, 21, 21 sons. I think was. Was great for him. And then you know, the what if of the Lakers.
- [105:02]
A
I was waiting for this. I was waiting for conspiracy bill to check in for the sliding doors all.
- [105:07]
C
Time written down from the book of basketball pod.
- [105:09]
A
Lob City never happened.
- [105:11]
C
Lob City never happens. Houston doesn't get hardened. Harden stays in OKC for the 13th season. Maybe they win. Dwight doesn't go to Houston. Phil Jackson maybe stays with the Lakers. The Lakers never trade for Nash. Maybe New Orleans is too good and with the trade that they get, they don't get A.D. maybe Doc river stays in Boston. Maybe Kobe doesn't break down if he has Chris Paul. Like there's. You could go 40 different. It's the second best. What if after Draymond punching LeBron and the balls the last 15 years I.
- [105:41]
A
Saw you ranked that number one on your sliding doors and it should have been. The permutations are just starting with. Not to go get sidetracked here, but starting with, I mean it's a 0% chance Durant goes to the warriors if they win the title. It's not one of these things like, well, you know, if this. That stone cold 0% he's not going to the Warriors. Where does he go? Maybe nowhere as you have posited. Maybe he signs with OKC for what?
- [106:08]
C
He doesn't go to Boston. I think he just resigns for a year and figures it out because yeah.
- [106:12]
A
Like Boston was in there and it.
- [106:14]
C
Didn'T feel like that Westbrook doesn't win the mvp. We never have that argument.
- [106:19]
A
Miami was in there with Duran. Washington never got in there. Lakers never got in there. It felt like there was a. That he has been perpetually in search of a. The correct solution. Let's just. Let me just go. You know, all of these guys are unbelievable. Isaiah and the Pistons have this run 87. They lose to Boston on the Bird, steals the ball, passes to DJ when it looks like they have Boston on the ropes. And Isaiah throws that inbounds pass the lollipop to Lambert.
- [106:49]
C
That bird, that's his version of the 2014 OKC game 88 they make the.
- [106:54]
A
Finals against the Lakers and they're better and should have won an all time, all time flashbulb game. 43 points on one ankle in Game 6. They lose in Game 7 on a foul that may have not have happened. Sending Kareem to the line. It's a shaky. It's a shaky call. Outrageous. It's a shaky call.
- [107:14]
C
It's beyond shaky. It's outrageous. And then the fans charged the court when they were down three and then they weren't even able to get the three pointer off.
- [107:22]
A
89.
- [107:23]
C
We swept it all under the rug because the lakers need another title.
- [107:27]
A
89 and 90, they win. And in the 90 run he has some crazy games along the way and just a consistent, great two way player.
- [107:36]
C
And by the way, the 89 team when I did my book and now the 2018 warriors would be added, but I had the 89 team as I think the fourth best team of all time. I thought that team was incredible and he was the spearheading general of the whole thing he did. That was his team. He was the engine. If you watch like when they win games, he's the guy they all gravitated to. And that was like, that was his opus, that 89 team.
- [108:03]
A
19:9 for his career, 16 and 9. He actually averages a hair more assists per game than Chris Paul, which surprised me. 9.3 for Isaiah, 9.2 for Chris.
- [108:12]
C
But he's like I said this earlier, I'm positive he could have been 28 to 30 a game in the 80s if he wanted it. If he wanted to just be like, I'm just going to get my stats easily. I think he could have been second in scoring every single year.
- [108:26]
A
The veto is an is. Is a what if. And I just. People again, people know now Chris is like the wily old, crafty, all guile and smarts. You go back and watch New Orleans, young New Orleans Chris. The dude is a freaking blur. He's hopping everywhere, he's jumping, he's fast. And we were. You're doing our favorite sort of Chris, deep dives, deep cuts. Rather I, I will always remember the 2011 Hornets. David West, I think tore his ACL right at the end of the season. They play the Lakers, defending champion, two time defending champion Lakers in the first round of the playoffs. Totally over match. Lakers have home court, they're the higher seed. David west is hurt. The Pelicans, the Hornets rather are decimated and it's improbably 22 after four games and entirely because Chris Paul dominated the series and was by far the best player on the floor 33 and 14 in game one, 27, 15 and 13 in game four. He was like astoundingly good at young. Chris Paul was like an astounding player.
- [109:27]
C
Well, and that's why there was, that's why the whole trade sweep stakes for him. So that playoffs ends, lockout for six months, lockout ends, all of a sudden Chris Paul's on the table. And it was really meaningful because we had just seen him do that in the playoffs and it was like, holy, the Lakers can't get Chris Paul. This would be a disaster for the rest of the league. That's how good he was.
- [109:48]
A
Yeah, I think I'd take him. Look, Nash, Stockton, kid, they're all incredible size obviously a limitation for Chris. I think he has a case over all those guys. I frankly think he has a case over Isaiah Thomas. But I'm tabling it. I told you one of my off season projects is going to be I want to go back and watch some of the 89, 88, 90 Peak Isaiah games to refresh my memory about him. But you can't, you can't put them against the holy trinity of, of Steph, Magic and Oscar. Those are the top three point guards.
- [110:19]
C
Or Koozie in my opinion.
- [110:20]
A
Well, Koozie, I just don't know. I just don't know what to do with guys from that era.
- [110:26]
C
That's fine. There's another what if with him.
- [110:30]
A
Oh boy.
- [110:30]
C
I talked about in the book of basketball. I was furious as this was happening where Chris Paul didn't go in the top three picks in 05, but he was the best basketball player coming out of college and everybody knew he was. And I remember writing about at the time, I just thought Milwaukee takes Bogut.
- [110:52]
A
No, he went up, he went fourth.
- [110:54]
C
Right Walker takes Bogut. Atlanta has Joe Johnson and Josh Smith. He's playing in the acc. They need a point guard and they took Marvin Williams. It's like an all time. I can't believe they passed on him in the moment. It was unbelievable. Now it seems worse and then Portland has the third pick and they trade back for 627 and 30. And then Utah takes Darren Williams with third pick and Chris Paul miraculous falls to fourth. But I, I'll never understand how Atlanta passed on him. That was like in the moment. That was crazy. They took Marvin Williams who didn't start at unc and if he goes to Atlanta and he's with Joe Johnson and Joe Smith in the Eastern Conference as what we know is going to happen in the Eastern Conference like that's completely different scenario. He also goes down as you know the the with the Hawks like he would have been in the running for best talk of all time him versus Dominique. I just don't think he ever leaves.
- [111:54]
A
Thinking of all time inexplicable. Number two. You passed on who to pick. Who this is reminded me maybe you should just not pick anyone named Marvin number two. Marvin Bagley III is the other one. The king's passing on Luca to pick Marvin Bagley iii just every public rationalization of that was like what what?
- [112:16]
C
Why in general picking two is a dangerous three is always seems like it's a better spot than two.
- [112:23]
A
All right, we'll. We'll do. We'll do more. What you got something else?
- [112:26]
C
I just think the the amount of the longevity that he had is the best case for him other than there's advanced metrics that is the years pass are going to be awesome for him. Right. And I just like one of the reasons I wrote my book way back when was I wanted to make sure we didn't get carried away away with Carl Malone 50 years after he retired where people are like whoa, Carl Malone. Are we sure he wasn't the best player of that entire generation? Like statistics are great. They only go so far. Chris's statistics, his advanced metrics. At a time when advanced metrics was taking off Sloan conference all the numbers we had starting around 0809 going through and Chris was like the poster boy for that stuff and I think that really helped him which isn't his fault. I think it's a good thing. But I think the advanced metric stuff that's how the point got point God stuff started. But you know, unfortunately the playoff stuff is going to be the. Yeah but for him that we always.
- [113:19]
A
Mention should also mention Stockton 5 time all defense. I wanted to at least give him the credit too. All right, we'll do a more complete version of this as the year winds down. Who know? Maybe. Maybe Bill. Maybe there's a storybook ending here for the Clippers and for Chris Paul. They're only 5 and 12. They'll this there's a lot of season left. Kawhi's back. Like are you. We can't give up the dream.
- [113:40]
C
Their only storybook ending is not giving OKC a top seven pick. And and not having Steve Ballmer suspended for like three years would be the two storybook endings. Anything else is gravy. Even if they get to 40 wins, that's a bonus.
- [113:55]
A
I'm just going to leave it right there. Bill Simmons. Thank you for your time, sir.
- [113:57]
C
Thanks, Eclo.
- [114:00]
A
All right, that's it. We'll talk to you later this week. You know, I like to give you guys an episode for the bad travel days around Thanksgiving. So we'll be coming back with another episode here pretty soon. Thanks to Howard Beck, thanks to Bill Simmons, thanks to Jonathan, Jesse and Mike on production, thanks to you all for listening and watching the Zach Lowe Show. We will see you again real soon. Must be 21 or over in President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over in President D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem called 1-800- gambler or visit rg-help.com, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gambling helplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York.
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