Knicks Take Commanding 3-0 Lead and What to Watch For in Thunder-Spurs!

Summary

The Zach Lowe Show – Knicks Take Commanding 3-0 Lead & What to Watch For in Thunder-Spurs! (May 24, 2026)

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Episode Overview

In a special Saturday edition, Zach Lowe is joined by Michael Pina to break down the New York Knicks’ dominant Game 3 victory over the Cleveland Cavaliers, a win that puts the Knicks on the verge of their first NBA Finals appearance in 27 years. The duo analyze how the Knicks reached this historic point, what has changed in their postseason run, and whether this team can win the championship. The episode also takes a quick, insightful look ahead to Game 4 of a Thunder-Spurs Western Conference Finals battle marked by key injuries.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Knicks’ Historic Surge

[02:42 – 10:20]

• Knicks Seize Control: The Knicks defeated the Cavs on the road, taking a 3-0 series lead; no NBA team has ever come back from such a deficit.
• The Knicks have now won ten straight games, many by double digits, signaling a dominant playoff stretch.
• Zach acknowledges:
  “They just methodically beat down the Cleveland Cavaliers … another double-digit win for the Knicks, 13 points on the road, obliterating everyone.” [03:13 – Zach Lowe]
• Rhythm and Flow Improved: Zach compares the Knicks’ newfound consistency to finally remembering that “trivia answer on the tip of your tongue,” noting that earlier in the year, their flow “would just disappear and become stilted,” but now it’s sustained.
• The Knicks’ playoff point differential after 10 games is the highest in NBA history, even higher than the famed 2017 Warriors:
  “So this Knicks team is clearly for real.” [06:23 – Michael Pina]

What Has Changed for the Knicks?

[07:31 – 13:47]

• Key Players Stepping Up:
  • Karl-Anthony Towns has been steady, decisive, and is “holding his own on defense,” a far cry from previous playoff struggles.
  • Mikal Bridges has become indispensable: “He’s having the playoff series of his life … 22 points tonight on 15 shots, 11 for 15 from the floor.” [09:10 – Guest Analyst]
• OG Anunoby and Josh Hart round out a trio of “gigantic wings” playing at their highest level together on both ends—an unprecedented combination for New York.
• Brunson as the Engine: Jalen Brunson is expectedly unshakeable, facilitating the offense and minimizing mistakes.

Team Building Masterclass

[19:34 – 22:01]

• Stealing Jalen Brunson in free agency is described as “the alpha and omega of the whole thing.”
• Smart, creative front office moves: Turning Immanuel Quickley and RJ Barrett into OG Anunoby, trading for Josh Hart, and eventually gambling (and winning) on Towns—each transaction raised the team’s ceiling.
• “Piece by piece … it’s a brilliant team-building job and they’ve built a kind of unusual team.” [21:24 – Zach Lowe]

The Cavs: Future and Frustrations

[13:50 – 18:25]

• Cavs’ season has been an incremental success but would end on a sour note if swept.
• Lack of wing depth, reliance on two-guard plus two-big lineups has left them unable to match the Knicks’ versatility.
• Questions about the futures of Evan Mobley and the current roster construction arise should this run end swiftly.
• On the turnovers and shot selection:
  “The thing about the Cavs that’s so frustrating are the turnovers. Like just the stupidest turnovers, the stupidest passes you’ll ever see in a big spot in a big game.” [27:48 – Guest Analyst]

The “Small Guard” Debate

[11:03 – 12:01]

• Discussion on the long-held skepticism about building around a “6-foot-whatever” lead guard (Brunson).
• Knicks’ success with Brunson challenges that narrative, especially compared to Cavs’ attempts with Donovan Mitchell.

Josh Hart’s Impact and Fan Relationship

[12:25 – 13:47]

• Zach recounts the crowd at Madison Square Garden chanting Josh Hart’s name:
  “That's the crowd saying, 'We love you. We love the kind of player you are.'” [13:22 – Zach Lowe]
• Hart’s energy, resilience, and unique intangibles are highlighted by both hosts; his bounce-back after rough games is a recurring story.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Knicks’ Transformation:
  “They became the team that they really believed that they could be when they built this team.” [07:47 – Michael Pina]

• On Team Construction:
  “Methodical transaction by methodical transaction...” [07:49 – Zach Lowe]

• MGains from Big Trades:
  “Turns out Josh Hart's awesome and was worth way more than what they gave up.” [20:45 – Michael Pina]

• On Brunson’s Acquisition:
  “Getting [Brunson] hit with a tampering penalty for doing so that they would pay 10 times out of 10 … and look, the financial pain is maybe going to come down the line. Who cares?” [25:05 – Michael Pina]

• On the Cavs’ Limitations:
  “They are still, at their core, a team constructed around two guards … and two bigs and they just haven’t been able to find the right synergy.” [14:12 – Zach Lowe]

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Quick-Hit Preview: Thunder vs. Spurs, Western Conference Finals Game 4

[31:07 – 40:20]

• Injury Issues: Jalen Williams (Thunder) and AJ Mitchell (Spurs) are out, while others are banged up on both teams, possibly helping the Knicks if they clinch quickly.
• OKC's Adjustments: Surrounding Shai Gilgeous-Alexander with shooters and rethinking Wembanyama matchups (no more wings guarding him) has shifted the series.
• Wembanyama Usage:
  “72% of Wembanyama’s shots came in the restricted area in Game 1 … by Game 3, just 29%.” [34:45 – Michael Pina]
• Bench Play and Turnovers: Spurs’ turnover differential (-23) and Thunder’s bench contributions (Jared McCain: +46 in three games) are key swing factors.
• Future Outlook:
  “These two teams are just unbelievable, and I just wish everybody were healthy. That Game 1 was basketball pornography.” [37:41 – Zach Lowe]

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Key Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment / Topic | |-----------|----------------| | 02:42 | Knicks' historic Game 3 win, historical context | | 05:23 | Landry Shamet’s crucial threes and team depth | | 07:31 | What’s changed for the Knicks | | 09:10 | Mikal Bridges and Karl-Anthony Towns' emergence | | 12:25 | Josh Hart’s impact and fan chant anecdote | | 19:34 | Knicks’ team-building philosophy and transactions | | 25:05 | Brunson’s acquisition and contract implications | | 27:48 | Cavs' turnovers, offensive issues, and playoff fatigue | | 31:07 | Thunder-Spurs Game 4 – injury updates and keys | | 34:45 | Wembanyama offensive usage and OKC defense | | 39:54 | Bench impact and rivalry context |

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Tone & Final Thoughts

Lowe and Pina combine analytical depth with crisp, playful banter, mixing stats, historical analogies, and first-person experiences (like MSG crowd moments) with overarching themes about team-building and playoff toughness. Knicks fans’ suffering and present-day euphoria are celebrated, while the Thunder-Spurs series is presented as elite basketball, unfortunately hampered by injuries.

Closing Sentiment

“These two teams are just unbelievable … That Game 1 was like basketball pornography.”
— Zach Lowe [37:41]

“I'm happy for their fans if this continues the way it goes because … The Garden, for those who can afford it, is going to be outrageous.”
— Michael Pina [28:53]

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Summary prepared for those seeking a comprehensive, insight-rich snapshot of high-stakes NBA playoff basketball and the storylines shaping this postseason.

Transcript

[Zach Lowe]

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[Michael Pina]

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[Zach Lowe]

Foreign up on a special Saturday edition of the Zach Low Show. Michael Pena is here. And you know where the New York Knicks are. One game away from their first NBA Finals in 27 years. The new York Knicks, the Knickerbockers of New York City, the greatest city in the world, are finally on the doorstep of making the Finals again after a fairly emphatic road win in Cleveland to go up 3 0.

[Michael Pina]

Michael and I talk about the game.

[Zach Lowe]

Do the Cavs have any chance to get back in this thing?

[Michael Pina]

What does the sweep mean for the

[Zach Lowe]

future of the Cavs? But mostly, let's zoom out and appreciate and admire and think about how did

[Michael Pina]

the Knicks get here?

[Zach Lowe]

What's changed for them in the playoffs? Why are they humming like this and can they actually win the whole goddamn thing?

[Michael Pina]

For the first time in 53 years,

[Zach Lowe]

this city is about to go insane. If they actually make the Finals, the World cup will be going on here at the same time. I can't even imagine the chaos. But we talk all about the game. And then we have a quick hitting preview of Game four of Spurs Thunder,

[Michael Pina]

which unfortunately is now being marred by injuries on both teams, a development that the Knicks are at least sort of

[Zach Lowe]

watching out of half an eye as they try to close out the Cavs

[Michael Pina]

on Monday, Memorial Day.

[Zach Lowe]

But the Knicks 10 straight wins, double digits galore.

[Michael Pina]

What a run. We talk all about it coming up on the Zach Low Show.

[Zach Lowe]

The Zach Lowe show is brought to you by FanDuel. The conference finals are here. Think you know how it'll go down? Take your shot with FanDuel and get closer to the action. FanDuel is the best place to bet

[Michael Pina]

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[Guest Analyst]

Foreign

[Zach Lowe]

welcome to a special Saturday night edition of the Zach Lowe Show. Michael Pina is here. The New York Knicks, the Knickerbockers of New York City, the greatest city in the world, my home for almost 20 years. A team that went through a long period of incompetence. They became a punchline. There were impromptu gatherings of fans demanding that James Dolan sell the team. There was a sexual harassment lawsuit. They became a joke. It's been 27 years since they were in the NBA Finals. It's been 53 years since they won an NBA title. And they just methodically beat down the Cleveland Cavaliers in Game 3 of the Eastern Conference Finals tonight to go up 3, 0. No one has ever come back from a 3, 0 deficit in the NBA. It will happen at some point. I don't think this is the series where it's going to happen. The Knicks, my preseason pick to make the Finals, are on an all time historic run. 10 straight wins. I didn't even check the final score. It was another double digit win for the Knicks, 13 points on the road, obliterating everyone. And Pina, we talked all year, I talked all year about how the Knicks, they had periods where it just, they found it, they found the flow, they found the rhythm. They just, you could see it like, okay, the thing is functioning, the parts are meshing. Then they would lose it and it become a little stilted. And you would think, why is everything so hard? And I compared it to the feeling when you have a word, a name, a trivia answer that you know for sure, but it's on the tip of your tongue and you can't quite get it out. They have found it again and they have sustained it and they are rolling through the Eastern Conference. And I said it after the Philly series, you know, you and I were at MSG for game two. I was at both games one and game two and after game one, there were people kind of joking around in

[Michael Pina]

the corridors after the game.

[Zach Lowe]

Not anyone affiliated with either team, to be clear.

[Michael Pina]

Just there's a million people at these

[Zach Lowe]

games after having watched the game one of Spurs Thunder, kind of just joking, like, yes, cool win for the Knicks,

[Michael Pina]

but this is like the junior varsity bracket of the NBA.

[Zach Lowe]

And I said it after the Philly series, I think the Knicks can win the title. I think Knicks spurs is a toss up and I think the Knicks would have a puncher's chance against the Oklahoma City Thunder. Like I said, I've been telling people like 30%, whatever percent some percent like that this team is playing awesome. They have found whatever rhythm and rotation decisions they need to get their full force going. Landry Shamit has been a big part of that.

[Michael Pina]

He hit those three backbreaking threes tonight

[Zach Lowe]

all in a row. What a playoffs for the Knicks. And Knicks fans deserve this. I've spent almost my entire life surrounded by Knicks fans. I was never one. I am not one.

[Michael Pina]

I will never be one.

[Zach Lowe]

But this is a basketball city and the fans are insane and they have

[Michael Pina]

lived through a lot of pain to get here and here they are.

[Zach Lowe]

And I don't know where you want to start. Like, what struck you from this game? I mean, the Knicks opened up a lead. They basically held the lead the entire game. They kept them at arm's length the entire game. The Cavs again missed the whole bundle of threes. I hope they are stitching up their shot quality champions 2025, 2026 Banner to go along with the the Hawks shot quality championship banner from the Bud era

[Michael Pina]

and the Celtics shot quality championship banners.

[Zach Lowe]

Congratulations to the Cavs on that 12 of 41 from three. They just haven't been good enough. The Knicks have been too good.

[Guest Analyst]

Where do I want to start with this? I mean, you made a really good point just about how the Knicks can win the title. And you know, after I wrote this column after they beat the Sixers and you just look at their point differential after 10 playoff games and it was the highest in the history of the NBA playoffs. Better. The previous number one team was the 2017 Golden State warriors, which we all kind of acknowledge as one of the greatest teams ever assembled. So this Knicks team is clearly for real. You say it's a toss up against the Spurs. I would agree with that. I would say that if Jalen Williams is still compromised in the finals, I don't, I don't know who the favorite is, honestly. I mean, the New York Knicks.

[Michael Pina]

I'm glad you brought that up because right before this game, AJ Mitchell was really out of game four of Thunder Spurs. Jalen Williams is out for some period of time. We don't know. The spurs have two of their three guards playing clearly with injuries. And the longer those two teams beat the hell out of each other, if the Knicks make this a sweep like that, whatever 30% chance I just gave them against the Thunder just continues to creep up because this team, this team is legit. And I think that's really, like you mentioned the point differential.

[Zach Lowe]

I think there's just a bunch of

[Michael Pina]

stuff happening all at once for the Knicks, like a Bunch of good variables that needed to flip their way. A bunch of good discoveries that the team needed to make on their own

[Zach Lowe]

have all coalesced at the same time. And the net effect is they became

[Michael Pina]

the team that they really believed that they could be when they built this team.

[Zach Lowe]

Step by step by step, methodical transaction by methodical transaction.

[Michael Pina]

But, I mean, that's, I think, where we should start.

[Zach Lowe]

Like, what is. What has changed for them since two, one down down against the Atlanta Hawks? How did that even happen? It seems like a different planet.

[Guest Analyst]

I mean, there's two guys that I would like to cite. The first one is Karl Anthony Towns, who every time I'm watching the Knicks, I'm kind of waiting for him to revert back to the guy who we've always seen kind of meltdown, maybe. Yeah, meltdown, I guess, is the fair description of what he would do during certain possessions in his playoff career. And he's just played. So, I mean, they put the ball in his hands. It's control Tower Cat. And he's just been this combination of calm. I don't think he had a turnover in this game. And aggressive. I mean, not so much tonight because they weren't guarding him that way. But when they put Max Strus on him in game two, he's just quick. He has the ball, he goes quick. He sees Jared Allen on him on the perimeter, he goes quick to the basket. So his decision making has been awesome. Very punctual and he's not making mistakes and so shout out to him. And he's holding his own in the defensive end as well because they went at him repeatedly in the pick and roll and they really couldn't get anything going tonight. Some of that was just missed open threes, but they couldn't get anything going. The Cleveland Cavaliers haven't been good enough, as you said. The other guy I want to cite is just Mikhail Bridges. Just. He was a punching bag for a lot of this season. For a variety of reasons, he did not play well at the start of the playoffs. I mean, the guy never misses anymore. He's having the playoff series of his life. He's shooting like 75% from the floor or something crazy like that. He had what, 22 points tonight on 15 shots, 11 for 15 from the floor. He's moving so well with. It's not like they're running plays for him at all. Sometimes they'll let him run pick and roll if the matchup dictates that. But he's just playing in the flow of their offense beautifully. His cuts, his is just finding open space in transition. He's phenomenal. I mean, they had a point in this game where they were up 170 in fast break points and a lot of that is just Mikel Bridges just running the floor, beating Harden, beating Mitchell up the court. So those two have been absolutely phenomenal. When you talk about just like it coalescing those two playing as well as they have is as much as anything because I expect Jalen Brunson to be awesome. I expect him to be not phased by anything. And for those two to come along for the ride has been the reason to me that this team looks unstoppable right now.

[Michael Pina]

Those are the two big changes. And for Bridges, it's so much more in the how than in the result. Like the threes are going to come and go. That's the nature of being a jump shooter, the attacking the rim in transition.

[Zach Lowe]

He had a mid range pull up

[Michael Pina]

on a pick and roll today with Mitchell Robinson. He got a floater out of that action in game two. And a lob pass to Mitch in the same game like that play has been activated. Every part of his game has been activated. And I think, you know, they built this team.

[Zach Lowe]

It's, it's fitting in a way.

[Michael Pina]

And it's going to be interesting to hear sort of how the basketball universe discusses the Knicks maybe making the Finals, assuming they close it out. Because there's been a lot of like discourse over the last two or three

[Zach Lowe]

years about, well, can you really, can

[Michael Pina]

you really win the whole thing if your best player is a six foot, whatever, six, one, call it whatever you want, guard. And Becky Hammond was the most infamous one. Like they don't have a guy. He's too short to be the guy.

[Zach Lowe]

And they're playing against a team whose

[Michael Pina]

best player is a 6, 2, 6, 3, whatever. Donovan Mitchell is small guard.

[Zach Lowe]

And the Knicks are outclassing the Cavs because they built a different kind of

[Michael Pina]

team around that small guard.

[Zach Lowe]

And they even have a defensively challenged five who has not been defensively challenged in this series.

[Michael Pina]

This is the best stretch of defense Karl Anthony Towns has played maybe ever in the NBA. The Cavs are going at him in the pick and roll over and over again.

[Zach Lowe]

The Knicks interestingly, are kind of switching up sometimes.

[Michael Pina]

He got mostly he's guarding Mobley, but they'll throw him back on Allen and flip the matchups if Mobley gets a

[Zach Lowe]

little too frisky in the pick and roll.

[Michael Pina]

But he's been great. But around those two are these three gigantic Wings.

[Zach Lowe]

And they have never played in concert at this high a level on both

[Michael Pina]

ends of the floor at the same time ever. In their time with the Knicks.

[Zach Lowe]

Mikhail Bridges OG an Adobe. Did you even notice him that much today? 21 points on 6 of 10 shooting, defends every position makes every right decision. And Josh Hart, I thought game two was one of the coolest NBA games

[Michael Pina]

I've ever been to.

[Zach Lowe]

You know, the thing that happens with

[Michael Pina]

Josh Hart once a playoff series or once every other playoff series happened in game one, where they had to take him off the floor because his lack of shooting was. Was clogging up the offense. And he.

[Zach Lowe]

Part of that was he just wasn't

[Michael Pina]

spacing through the appropriate places. He kind of let the way they were guarding him SAP the vigor from his play.

[Zach Lowe]

When he's at his best, he's just

[Michael Pina]

flying all around doing all sorts of crazy stuff. And he kind of stopped doing that and stood still and then became a liability.

[Zach Lowe]

And then before game two, there was

[Michael Pina]

this whole like, well, are the Knicks going to have to like, really cut his minutes and play this super shooting lineup with Shamet in his place? And Jason Timf was on my podcast, I said, look, I'm just going to tell you what's going to happen. This happens every time with Josh Hart. There's calls to like limit his minutes or even bench him. And the very next game, I think I said, he has like 15 points, 12 rebounds, eight assists.

[Zach Lowe]

He had way more points than that. And I just thought when the crowd

[Michael Pina]

began chanting Josh Hart, that was the whole chant. And it went on for like a minute.

[Zach Lowe]

He didn't acknowledge it during the game, but it was loud. It was damn near the whole crowd just chanting the name of Josh Hart. That's the crowd saying, we love you. We love the kind of player you are.

[Michael Pina]

We love the kind of spirit that you play with.

[Zach Lowe]

We love that the other guys on the team love to play with you because you will make the hustle plays and the screens and the hit ahead passes and everything that makes their life easier. And those three guys have never played

[Michael Pina]

as well together at the same time as they are now.

[Zach Lowe]

And that's the construction of the team. And that's what the Cavs, through every iteration that they have tried, still do not have. They are still, at their core, a team constructed around two guards. You can't say two small guards anymore because Harden's not small, but he is a defensive liability despite the fact that

[Michael Pina]

he has okay possessions here and there, but two.

[Zach Lowe]

Whatever you want to say Guards and two bigs and they just haven't been able to find the right synergy between the guards, between the bigs. It comes and goes, but it hasn't sustained and they haven't figured out the position in between them. Despite trying DeAndre Hunter and Max Stre and Dean Wade and the Dean Wade thing, he's just not good enough offense offensively. You can hide Brunson on him. There was one possession in this game

[Michael Pina]

where he screened for Mitchell, I think to try to hunt Brunson.

[Zach Lowe]

Brunson's like, no, I'll just hedge out Dean Wade. You go ahead and roll into, roll into the paint because Mobley and Allen

[Michael Pina]

are both there and if they try

[Zach Lowe]

to pass it to you, nothing's going to happen.

[Michael Pina]

And they stole it.

[Zach Lowe]

And so I just think it's ironic you have this, well, can you get this far with the small guard? The Knicks are about to and the Cavs are about to fail again around

[Michael Pina]

further than they have in this era. Credit to them.

[Zach Lowe]

But it's so much about the surrounding personnel and everyone the Knicks are bringing off the bench. And it's really only like four, three and a half guys playing real minutes off the bench.

[Michael Pina]

They're all killing it.

[Zach Lowe]

They're all playing really well. The whole thing is humming. But the construction of the team and

[Michael Pina]

the just the Wings versus the void of wings on the Cavs, I think has just stood out so much in the series.

[Guest Analyst]

Yeah, they were saying it repeatedly on the broadcast tonight where they needed you needed someone on the Cavaliers to step up and come along for the ride. Whether it's Jaylon Tyson, Sam Merrill, Max Struse, whoever it may be. And the three point shooting has just completely dried up for this team. And I picked foolishly I guess the Cavaliers in seven in this series because

[Michael Pina]

I just trust it's still alive.

[Zach Lowe]

Technically possible. Alive.

[Guest Analyst]

It's technically possible. Zach, I, I, I thought that their just their offensive firepower would be a lot. I thought that the three point shooting that the Knicks had in the first two rounds would diminish a little bit. And the Knicks, you know, have been dominant. Their opponent had in the first two rounds was just terrible from behind the three point line. I thought things would just kind of balance out a little bit. And I thought I like The Cavaliers talent, etc. Like their size. And that just has not happened at all. And you look at the Knicks and you have Landry Shammit just, I mean he's kind of, he's been their sixth man in this series and the Three threes he hit in the fourth quarter that you mentioned, plus Harden fouling him in the corner on another three pointer a couple seconds later. With Harden up in the gap trying to try to protect Donovan Mitchell, who they were going after tonight. Brunson was hunting Mitchell instead of Harden in the fourth quarter. Just, it's, it's just really tough when you have a backcourt that isn't insulated as well as, as you have done with the Knicks, as you said. And I don't. I don't know where the Cavs go from here with this. We can get to that, I guess, because it looks like their season's over. They did make it to the conference finals. That's really a step in the right direction for this organization. But to go out if it is a sweep would be, I think, still humongously disappointing for them.

[Zach Lowe]

Oh, there's. I mean, look, you could have this

[Michael Pina]

debate, and it's, it's so interesting how quickly things can change. You know, the Cavs, it wasn't pretty, but they, they found ways to win against two elite defenses in Toronto and Detroit. Detroit was the number one seed. They destroyed them on the road in game seven.

[Zach Lowe]

You would have preferred it be a

[Michael Pina]

little cleaner than that.

[Zach Lowe]

And I think the Cavs are, Are

[Michael Pina]

probably tired and they've played every other day now for quite a long time.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, I mean, that's what happens when

[Michael Pina]

you go seven games in every series. The Knicks haven't had to play every other day because they swept the Sixers and beat the Hawks in six.

[Zach Lowe]

If that RJ Barrett shot doesn't go

[Michael Pina]

in, there's some extra days off built in for the Cavs here and there.

[Zach Lowe]

That's like the rest versus rust thing

[Michael Pina]

is always funny to me because, yeah, the Knicks were a little rusty in game one, and by the way, the

[Zach Lowe]

Cavs, I mean, the series was probably

[Michael Pina]

over when that game ended. You just can't kick away a game like that on the road when you're, when you're already fatigued and you're an underdog, you just can't do it. The Knicks did it last year at home. And the series, that series was probably over after that game, after the Halliburton game. But I will always choose rest.

[Zach Lowe]

And the thing about the rest versus

[Michael Pina]

rust debate is it doesn't end after game one.

[Zach Lowe]

Like, yeah, sometimes the team with a

[Michael Pina]

lot of days off is a little Rusty. In Game 1, the Knicks overcame that and won. The benefit sustains throughout the rest of the playoffs. The load that you have saved yourself,

[Zach Lowe]

it goes beyond that.

[Michael Pina]

But anyway,

[Zach Lowe]

so you think they make

[Michael Pina]

the conference finals and they all right, they've sort of slayed the demon. This team has proof of concept. It's gotten one of the final four teams. Probably no dramatic changes will happen.

[Zach Lowe]

Then you lose a game like game

[Michael Pina]

one, where all the spotlight is on your coach, and deservedly so. I thought Kenny Atkinson coached a horrendous fourth quarter, and that's. I don't even think it's debatable. And the rest of the team underperforms.

[Zach Lowe]

And then if that snowballs into just

[Michael Pina]

a demoralizing sweep where the Knicks blow them out at home in game four,

[Zach Lowe]

I think a lot of things, at least the drawing board might have got erased. I think you start at least writing some ideas back down on the drawing board. And if I'm the Bucs and I

[Michael Pina]

covet Evan Mobley, and I'm not sure

[Zach Lowe]

they do, and I have no idea if they do, it just gets a

[Michael Pina]

little more interesting to me.

[Zach Lowe]

But I want to park the Cavs

[Michael Pina]

over here and talk a little bit more about the Knicks.

[Zach Lowe]

You just look at like how they

[Michael Pina]

built this team, the level of discipline and creativity at the same time that this front office has combined since they took over right before the pandemic. Stealing Brunson in free agency is the alpha and omega of the whole thing. I mean, it changed everything about the team.

[Zach Lowe]

And then just piece by piece, you

[Michael Pina]

know, they turn quickly and Barrett, remember they celebrated Barrett's extension like the first,

[Zach Lowe]

first round pick we've drafted since Charlie

[Michael Pina]

Ward that we gave a rookie extension to.

[Zach Lowe]

Then they trade him.

[Michael Pina]

They, they, they correctly believe that they can get a better player. They correctly conclude that quickly is just going to be always be redundant with Brunson there. And they turn those into OG and anobi, perhaps a less prolific score than RJ Barrett, but a much better player and a much better fit with what they're trying to build.

[Zach Lowe]

The Josh Hard trade will go down.

[Michael Pina]

It's their version of the Derek White trade.

[Zach Lowe]

Both teams were around.500 when they made the trade.

[Michael Pina]

Not really playing that well, in fact, hovering in such sort of mediocrity that you're like really a first round pick

[Zach Lowe]

for like the guy has got this limitation.

[Michael Pina]

That limitation. Turns out Josh Hart's awesome and was worth way more than what they gave up. Cam Reddish was in that trade too. They dumped Toppin on the same trade deadline with the understanding that's going to help them resign Divincenzo and Josh Hart.

[Zach Lowe]

And then they Go a little nutso for Mikhail Bridges, but they had concluded

[Michael Pina]

we're just a way better team than we thought we were. It's. It's now or never. We can't wait forever for Giannis. We, we can't wait forever for Joel Embiid. Slash. We dodged a bullet with Joel Embiid.

[Zach Lowe]

And then the Towns won. That's a gamble. That contract's a huge, huge contract that's going to be hard to move if it doesn't work. And it was an upside play.

[Michael Pina]

It was a. Yep.

[Zach Lowe]

It's a gamble. Yep. We could be in jail yet. Julius Randle's really good. Yep. Dante's part of the Nova Knicks and is a beloved player on our team. This is a bet on a ceiling raising player that has now paid off. And it's just piece by piece by piece. It's a brilliant team building job and they've built a kind of unusual team. And it's why I've always, why I've thought for a while now that they

[Michael Pina]

have a chance to win even against the Thunder is like they're just a, you gotta be a little unusual if

[Zach Lowe]

you're going to come from a slight talent, talent deficit. Brunson's an unusual player. Cat at the five is an unusual look. They're just, they're a hard team to play against. Just a ma.

[Michael Pina]

A masterclass by the front office, truly.

[Guest Analyst]

And I thought that Mike Brown after Game 2 in his press conference compared Josh Hart to Andre Iguodala. And I thought that that was really fascinating. Obviously, Mike Brown was an assistant coach with the Golden State warriors. And if you kind of look at Josh Hart through that lens as this kind of linchpin, do everything, huge winning play, gamer. It just kind of, he helps things kind of come together and coalesce in a really fun way. And going back to game two, that game, you know, after game one, whereas they weren't really defending him with Allen and Mobley, whoever was on him was helping off of him. And he missed his first, what, three threes in game two. Right. And he drives a closeout from the corner. Scores. He drives another closeout on Jared Allen from the top, like from the wing scores of the basket. And he's just so mentally tough. And it's just like the resilience when you watch that as his teammate. I just wonder the resiliency of someone doing that fearlessly. And then eventually, obviously he hits all those threes. But he's just, he's really growing on me. I, I, for whatever reason I have not always been the, the greatest Josh Hart fan. I think he's just been phenomenal in so many different ways throughout this run. And like, it's really funny when you look at the, the, the Karl Anthony Towns trade and just the just diametrically opposed performances that those two players talking about Julius Randle and Cat have had in this postseason, it just could not have worked out any better for New York. So they've built kind of this rock solid team. And I mean, we haven't really talked about Jalen Brunson because I feel like some of what he does is just kind of taken for granted. But he's held up defensively in the last, I don't know, five, six quarters or whatever. And he just looks unstoppable offensive, like, you can't really do anything with him. He's such a great, tough shot maker. You make any mistake at the point of attack, he beats you, he'll reject a screen, get downhill, go off the wrong foot. He's just, he's amazing. So I, I don't know what you do. And he never turns the ball over. So I just think the finals will be a lot of fun and I'm really looking forward to them because I was thinking this entire season pretty much that whoever came out of the west was just going to dog walk whoever came out of the east. And I just don't feel that way anymore. And I think we could be in line for a classic series, hoping that whoever comes out of the west is healthy. I would love to see this matchup.

[Michael Pina]

I have been a Josh Hart superfan for quite a long time, and I'm just.

[Zach Lowe]

I just.

[Michael Pina]

He was on my Marcus Soul All Stars when I did that podcast with Chris Ryan this year. I love watching him play. Brunson is unbelievable. And none of this happens without them swiping him from Dallas, getting hit with a tampering penalty for doing so that they would pay 10 times out of

[Zach Lowe]

10 and swiping him at a price

[Michael Pina]

point that allowed them to do some other stuff. And look, the financial pain is maybe going to come down the line.

[Zach Lowe]

Who cares?

[Michael Pina]

Like it does. It doesn't matter. They're about to make the finals for the first time in 27 years.

[Zach Lowe]

Unless Cleveland really pops in a way that they just, I mean, maybe they

[Michael Pina]

have a crazy shooting game in them. They're certainly do. And like, at least get it back to New York and just, you know, you take it brick by brick and if you get it to 3, 2,

[Zach Lowe]

then the pressure shifts.

[Michael Pina]

But it's just hard to see there from here at this point.

[Zach Lowe]

Harden was eh, I mean he was 7 of 8 on twos, 1 of

[Michael Pina]

7 on threes, five turnovers. I thought this was his, probably his worst defensive game of the series. Even worse than Game 1 when, when Brunson went at him all those times.

[Zach Lowe]

I mean he, I, I just, I thought he was like not great defensively in that game in that Cleveland meltdown.

[Michael Pina]

Like a lot of people were like, no, he played good defense in Brunson just made tough shots. I thought he played like okay to like eh, defense. And Brunson made some tough shots, some shots that are easier for him but look tough and then some easy shots tonight, you know, they come right out of halftime. He loses the anobi on a three, a pin down. He loses track of male bridges under the rim. It turns into a quick pass layup. Like those are the ones you can't, you can't have. And look, they just bet against Garland. Garland's health has been iffy. This was a big allin year for them. And that's why the Mobley thing is interesting because like you just traded up 10 years in age Garland for Harden. You can justify that. Do you really want to go up X whoever it is that. Because that's the trade ship, right? I mean it's X amount of years

[Zach Lowe]

up in Mobley that that's like you

[Michael Pina]

get a lot older real fast. And Mitchell, you know, look, he said all the right things about the Cavs and he wants to stay there and he loves it there. And I believe him.

[Zach Lowe]

I believe he does.

[Michael Pina]

And he obviously is in the last year of his contract next year and is extension eligible. I don't really see a pathway for them to get back into this finals. But do you want to carve out one just to do the thought exercise? I mean no one's, no one's ever done it.

[Zach Lowe]

Somebody will do it.

[Michael Pina]

This does not seem like the set of teams that is, is amenable to such a turn of events.

[Guest Analyst]

Yeah, I think the thought exercises, they hit a bunch of threes. They're generating threes. I mean not as many as they did in game one, but they're generating decent looks from good shooters. Like really, really good shooters. And they're just not falling. I think that they had some breakdowns defensively. The thing about the Cavs that's so frustrating are the turnovers. Like just the stupidest turnovers, the stupidest passes you'll ever see in a big spot in a big game in the first two games against the Pistons in the last round, it was just like, what, what sport are they playing? And they make some of those passes tonight, just trying to fit stuff into tight spots. Donovan Mitchell had a couple that were terrible, and the Knicks capitalized on them. Harden has a couple kick aheads that just.

[Zach Lowe]

Josh Hart, you know, deflected all of them.

[Guest Analyst]

Josh Hart, Yeah. Just really, just not like, it's not like he had an advantage up court. So. The Cavs are frustrating. I think that they, if they clean things up and take care of the basketball and hit threes and, you know, I think their defense when they are locked in and switching and helping behind the play has been okay at points in this series, like, good enough to win games. Obviously they, they probably should have won game one, but I don't know. I mean, the Knicks are just, they're, they're like a buzzsaw right now. And I don't, I don't see, I don't, I wouldn't like, feel very bullish about thinking that the Cavs can even get two off of them at this point.

[Michael Pina]

Mitchell had 23 points tonight. You know, he's been deflecting every question about is there an ankle, is there a hamstring, is there something that's bothering you? And look, if he's saying he's fine and he took 21 shots and did not. I thought he looked okay. Like, I didn't, I didn't watch him and obviously think like he's like limping or dragging his leg around. He looked okay. Wade being a total zero offensively in the series has really hurt them. Schroeder has been a pretty much a zero offensively in this series. They're just not getting enough from, from those guys. And then Strus and Merrill haven't made enough shots. Spend an all time run for the Knicks. And I just like, I'm happy for their fans if this, if this continues the way it goes because they, it's been a long time. They're crazy fans. The Garden, for those who can afford it, is going to be outrageous. And I don't have a lot else to say because we'll say more if and when they actually close this out. Let's take a quick break and then we'll just talk very quickly about the Western Conference Finals.

[Zach Lowe]

This episode is brought to you by.

[Michael Pina]

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[Zach Lowe]

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[Zach Lowe]

This episode is brought to you by ebay.

[Michael Pina]

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[Zach Lowe]

All right, it's late Saturday night. Game four, the west finals is tomorrow.

[Michael Pina]

The Thunder one. Game three last night, Friday night, fairly decisively.

[Zach Lowe]

Fox played, Harper played, J Dub did not play.

[Michael Pina]

AJ Mitchell got hurt. He'll be out in game four. Really great performance by the Thunder. One of the finest performances this core has has put together. Let's just do quickly like what, what's.

[Zach Lowe]

Give me one big picture, small picture

[Michael Pina]

thing that you'll have your eye on when game four tips tomorrow.

[Guest Analyst]

I mean Oklahoma City's three point shooting and how they're getting those shots and who's playing around. Shay Gilgis Alexander has been the most interest. Interesting thing to me. Mark Dagnal has done a really good job of just surrounding Shea with shooting and it has worked. I think that Jalen Williams, you know, their offensive rating when he was on the court with Wemby in game three was like 140, I think big Jalen Williams.

[Zach Lowe]

I guess we could kind of just say like anyone who says Jalen Williams

[Michael Pina]

at this present moment is unless it's in the context of an injury or we're talking about J A Y L I N Williams.

[Guest Analyst]

Yes. And I think that, you know, after game one we all kind of were just scared at the future and the present and Victor Wembanyama looking unbeatable. And in a lot of ways he, he is. When he's on the court. The spurs win those minutes and they did in game three as well. But I think that what is not lost but what is a reality is that if you have five guys who can shoot from behind the three point line, you give yourself a chance. And the paint will always be a no fly zone so long as he's on the court. But you will get good looks from pretty good shooters. And obviously Alex Caruso has not missed in this series. I don't believe. And he is completely fearless going at Whitby off the dribble too. He's just, he is, he is truly amazing. He's one of my favorite players in the entire NBA having a hell of a series. But you know, the, the idea of, you know, couching the, the Chet Hartenstein double big lineup when Wemby's on the court and then playing a lot of J Will instead as the lone big is really interesting. And they've had a lot of success with it. And so that's kind of what I'm looking at to see how the spurs kind of counter that and attack it a little bit better.

[Michael Pina]

The spurs are in this series plus 21 in 125 minutes with WEMBY on the floor and minus 38.

[Guest Analyst]

Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

In 29 minutes with WEMBY on the bench.

[Michael Pina]

And when you dig into like what's happening, it's just everything is happening. Like they're like, the spurs don't get to the line without a. Oklahoma City's offensive rebounding rate skyrockets. The spurs turn. Turnover rate reaches uncomfortable proportions. And that's the thing with these, you know, with the, with Fox laboring a little bit and Harper laboring a little bit. Like just the margin for the turnovers against. I think the spurs have committed 23 more turnovers than Oklahoma City in three games. Like that is untenable. You can't, you can't beat the Thunder that way, even with Victor Wembanyama on the floor. But I think they need to load up those Wembanyama minutes. I don't want to see them play a single second with him out and two of the three guards also resting on the bench. I just think it's not, it's too much heavy lifting for whoever the guard left over is assuming all three of them can play.

[Zach Lowe]

The thing that I am watching and

[Michael Pina]

I think the most interesting stat of the series is 72% of Wembanyama shots came in the restricted area in game one. In game two, 31% in game three, 29%.

[Zach Lowe]

And that's, that's, that is why the

[Michael Pina]

Thunder decided we are scrapping this we're guarding Wemby with wings thing, which they did mostly in the regular season and they do to switch, pick and rolls.

[Zach Lowe]

Because it doesn't matter if you can

[Michael Pina]

switch, pick and rolls if the guys on him are so small compared to him that you can just throw the ball up and we're just going to guard him. With Biggs, it's going to be Hardenstein, it's going to be Chet and and big Jalen Williams, and we're going to drop back and play normal pick and roll defense. And sometimes the lobs are going to be there, but they're going to be harder to see and harder to execute, especially when we're helping off the shooters. And that's really changed the series.

[Zach Lowe]

And I thought in the first half

[Michael Pina]

of Game 3, the spurs sort of got away from using him in the pick and roll anyway. And in the third quarter they came out and said, yeah, we know you're guarding him this way, but we have to still try. It's our best offense just having him go to the rim.

[Zach Lowe]

And they got a little bit of stuff out of that, but still not

[Michael Pina]

enough because the guys are guarding him are much bigger now. I think we're going to see even more of it and more creative ways to spring him loose. More misdirection. They ran a Fox Wemby empty side pick and roll from the right side of the floor that they got something off of. I can't remember. They got a lob dunk at some point. Vassell Wemby action is always good. Like, I think they're just going to have to dig deeper into the playbook.

[Zach Lowe]

But that to me is one of the defined the bench points and that

[Michael Pina]

stat of Wemby's shots drifting out to the perimeter more like even when he makes a shot like that or, or

[Zach Lowe]

drives and then passes at the foul

[Michael Pina]

line and someone makes a three, those are all like wins for Oklahoma City.

[Zach Lowe]

Anything except him just catching the ball

[Michael Pina]

at the basket is, is a win. So I'm fascinated to see that dynamic and how the spurs try to sort of get back forcefully at the rim. And you mentioned all the shooters. I'm wearing my Sixers shirt tonight in honor of Longtime Sixer Jared McCain, who is proving to be an X factor in the most competitive series the NBA has to offer right now. I picked Thunder and seven. We're just going to have to see how the injuries look like at some point. If Mitchell's out and J Dub is out.

[Zach Lowe]

I mean, they can, they just did

[Michael Pina]

win game three without J Dub and without AJ Mitchell for, for part of the game.

[Zach Lowe]

It just becomes a lot more heavy

[Michael Pina]

lifting for Shea, who's been outstanding the last two games and, and the rest of the guys have to make shot. Casey Wallace has been awesome, but you know, you put those AJ And J Dub out versus Harper and Fox expected to play, but maybe limited. Is it equal? Is it a Watt? I don't know. But I still feel pretty good about Thunder and seven. But these two teams are just unbelievable and just wish everybody were healthy because that Game one was like basketball pornography. I mean, it was just like I. I can't even believe how good this is.

[Zach Lowe]

And the Knicks are just waiting, just waiting and hoping that they just knock

[Michael Pina]

each other around a little bit more.

[Guest Analyst]

Game one was so good that I just wish Adam Silver decreed that both teams got an extra day of rest or two days of rest or whatever it was. That was phenomenal stuff. Also, Dylan Harper not looking like the same guy. I think he's a little, A little, a little banged up with the abductor. You know, Wemby obviously in the pain is unstoppable when they have Hartenstein on him. They started to run those wide, those wide pin downs and I think you mentioned just kind of empty corner off ball stuff. And I love that action. I love how when they run it. But I agree with you that if he's shooting jumpers, even if he's shooting threes, it's tough. I would like to see him get a little bit downhill, a little more with the inverted pick and rolls. But it's just the Thunder. I mean, we're talking about one of the greatest defenses in the history of the NBA and what they do so well is dancing and out of gaps and pack the paint. And when you have someone like Alex Carros Caruso on the court with a with bigs, like, it's just. It's so tough. So it's like Victor W is 76 or whatever and it might not. It might not matter. And they. They're going to have to hit shots and they're going to have to hope that the Oklahoma City Thunder cool off a little bit on the open ones and we'll see. But I do think, I agree with you that injuries will unfortunately play a factor in, in the outcome of the series. I had spurs in six and I'm not, you know, that could definitely still happen. But, but we'll see. Fox and Harper being Not being compromised. And Steph Castle, he cleaned things up a little bit with the turnovers in game three. I want to see him be super aggressive still and also not turn the ball over 10 times. That would be great, but we'll see. I mean, the series is still phenomenal basketball, and game four is going to be great.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah.

[Michael Pina]

McCain, by the way, plus 46 through three games, that's tied with Caruso for number one on either team. Interestingly, the Holmgren Hartenstein combination is minus 29 in 28 minutes, and it's a tiny sample size. And that just could all be like, they're playing all their minutes with Wemby on the floor. It could be less about them and more about Wemby. But the one big look has been. Has been a really good look for. For the Thunder.

[Zach Lowe]

So we'll see.

[Michael Pina]

I mean, look, this is already the

[Zach Lowe]

best rivalry in the NBA.

[Michael Pina]

I don't know. I can't wait for tomorrow's game. I hope everyone gets healthy soon enough. I hope we get classic in here. And I'll be on Bill's pod tomorrow right after that game. Going live, I'm assuming on Netflix.

[Zach Lowe]

But. Michael Pina, thank you for staying up late. The New York Knicks. I gotta admit, I just didn't think it was gonna happen. I mean, I don't. Not this year. I picked them this year. But in it, like, in my life, as I constructed my life as an NBA person, I would always think, wouldn't

[Michael Pina]

it be cool if one of the New York teams made the finals? I mean, there is another New York team, by the way. I don't know if you remember, there's another place in New York City. Um, and, you know, like, I could. I could have. Like, I wouldn't have to travel for half the finals. Like, you know, it would be so cool to have everyone. Like, I could maybe have people over to my house or my apartment. Like, it would be so fun.

[Zach Lowe]

And then my brain would be like, stop, Stop.

[Michael Pina]

Come on. Like, we're talking about the Knicks and the Nets. Like, it's not.

[Zach Lowe]

And now it looks like it's going to happen.

[Michael Pina]

And I am psyched for their fans who are just awesome fans.

[Zach Lowe]

Michael Pina. There's still work to do. We'll be. We'll be watching game four on what is today?

[Michael Pina]

Saturday.

[Zach Lowe]

So Monday. But thank you for staying up.

[Michael Pina]

Thanks to everyone for listening to and watching the Zach Glow show. Thanks to Mike, Billy, and Jonathan, our

[Zach Lowe]

crew, for also staying up.

[Michael Pina]

And I'll be back on Tuesday as normal. I don't even know who's playing when. But basketball will have happened or be happening. We'll be talking about it. Thanks everybody. 21 are over and President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over and President DC, Kentucky or West Wyoming gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MY RESET. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or is it mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland? Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-Hopeny or text HOPE NY in New York. For Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7867.

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