Zach Lowe (3:08)

Shirt on today. Got my Taurasi shirt on today, baby. Paige Becker's in the group. Did it last night. All right, enough. Enough out of you, Howard. Okay, I'm sorry. Coming down the stretch in the NBA, I missed damn near the entire regular season.

Howard Beck (3:21)

You've got a lot of catching up.

Zach Lowe (3:22)

Had a lot of fun.

Howard Beck (3:23)

You had. You had a lot of catching up on. On Bill's pod last week. That was awesome. Two hours of. Of. Of Zach just unloading after six months of pent up takes tremendous.

Zach Lowe (3:33)

You know how long I've been waiting to make Fun of Mattish 2016 with trade places with us comment again. I can't stop. The sun's just. Just. Just actively. You know what? Just. Just shoot us. Just put us out of our misery. We're done. We don't even want anyway. Okay, so it was a wild weekend in the NBA, Howard, and we're going to focus on the Western Conference because it's crazy. You ready to go?

Howard Beck (3:54)

Let's do it.

Zach Lowe (3:56)

Oklahoma City has lost two consecutive games for the first time in a while. They got bullied by the Rockets on Friday, I think. And then the Lakers, in a really interesting win for the Lakers at Oklahoma City, blew out the Thunder in a game you could either chalk up to shooting lock the shot quality. Tracking data says the Thunder had the better shot quality overall, and it was just a. Lakers went crazy from three. Thunder missed all the threes. Congratulations. You get no points and no wins for winning the shot quality battle. The Lakers won the game in a game that was playoff like in the way that the Lakers approached it. On offense. But Oklahoma City Al obviously has very little to play for other than health and getting. Getting prime for the playoffs. The Rockets are 15 and 2 in their last 17 games. They have something like a 99% chance, according to most models now of clinching the number two seed. What an accomplishment for the Houston Rockets and Eme Odoka, who cemented that almost number two seed status with a rollicking, and I mean rollicking win at Golden State last night. There was copious trash talk, including between Eme Odoka and Steph Curry. And after the game, I don't know if you saw this, Howard. I'm reading the Athletic story. This is Eme Odoka to the Athletic after the game, on the little halftime as they were walking to the locker room, dust up between him and Steph when people start complaining about foul calls or crying about physicality. Yeah, crying. He didn't say whining. He said crying. You've done your job. Udoka told the Athletic when asked about the exchange with Curry. That's the first step in winning the battle. So I told my team, when this team starts crying about it, that's two cryings in five seconds. Up the intensity, up the aggressiveness, and make the refs adjust to you. Can we all agree, by the way, Draymond Green should have gotten ejected from that game. And if he were, any other player, would have gotten ejected like, three different times.

Howard Beck (5:53)

I have questions. We could get back to the details of Draymond's game, but let me just say, I fucking love that Emi Udoka talks trash like that. We've. We are. We have so far. Like, we were so far removed from the era of coaches who trash talk and trash talk each other. We're so far removed from, like, Phil Jackson and Jeff Van Gundy calling each other stupid names and stuff. I love it. I want the coaches involved. I want him, Odoka, saying this stuff. I want, like, we don't have rivalries anymore. We don't have enough tension anymore. Like, amp it up. Fine, give me all of it. I love it.

Zach Lowe (6:25)

Draymond. Look, look. He might win defense player of the year. He got a stupid technical for, like, he baited a ref into a technical and he dared the ref to call him for a technical by elbowing Shangun in the face. Then he got a flagrant, which I. That was a strange play. When he. When he went up for a layup and elbowed Shingun in the face, I didn't quite know what to make of that. But just the Fact that he's the only player who's allowed to clap in a ref's face like for eight consecutive seconds and say whatever he wants and no one does anything about it. It's. It's interesting. But yeah, the other headline from that game, you know, Howard, I was going to come on today and say, first team, all NBA. We've got four spots locked in, I think between the two MVP candidates, favorites Giannis and Tatum. That fifth spot has been rotating. It's been Donovan Mitchell's for most of the season. Then he's kind of had it. Not. He had a little bit of a trough relative to his exemplary standard. And the Cavs are only 6 and 6 in their last 12 games. Lost to Sacramento at home yesterday. And then, you know, Anthony Edwards, maybe, Evan Mobley, maybe. And I was going to come on this podcast today and say, hey guys, seen what Steph Curry's been doing in the last month or two of the season and particularly in the last three or four games as the warriors traipse through a gauntlet of teams. And then, you know what happened to Steph Curry? Amin Thompson happened to Steph Curry. And Amin Thompson announced himself to not only as a first team all defense player, if he made a big final sort of statement like, hey, first team, all defense. Not only that in this jumbled defensive player of the year race, don't ignore me. I know I'm only a second year guy. I don't have this great reputation or whatever yet. I, I'm not Draymond Green in terms of my historical import to the game. But look what I can do. And he just blanketed Steph Curry and made plays as a help defender. Okay, that's the Rockets. We can get back to that. Ready to keep going?

Howard Beck (8:14)

Let's go.

Zach Lowe (8:16)

Lakers have won four out of five, including that Thunder win. They are now a 75% bet according to most markets to clinch the third seed. That's a big deal for the Lakers. It's a great season for them. We will talk about them as we talk about Thunder, Thunder, lakers. And then five teams, teams four to eight, all have exactly 32 losses. Four of them have the exact same record at 46 and 32. And just to give you a sense of how jumbled it is, take the Denver Nuggets. I'm using playoffstatus.com which is a great site that has mathematical models about who's going to be where in the playoffs. The Nuggets right now just have a. According to this website and basketball references similar 4% chance at the third seed. 15 chance at the fourth seed. 16 chance at the fifth seed. 22 chance at the sixth seed. 26 chance of the seventh seed playing. That's the highest number so far. 2618 chance of the eighth seed. That's just like what is even happening. They've lost four in a row, Jamal Murray, Michael Malone said before yesterday's game. Hopefully he's back before the playoffs. This is becoming a weird one. Oh, Minnesota and the Clippers are both. Both 14 and three in their last 17 games. Guess who has the third best net rating in the Western Conference? Number one is the Thunder. Number two is the Rockets. Do you know who has the third for the whole season? Not just in four, not just in the last 20 games. Not just post All Star break. The whole season. The third best net rating in the West.

Howard Beck (9:53)

Top of my head. I'm going to guess the Clippers. The.

Zach Lowe (9:56)

The Los Angeles Clippers. Plus 4.8 per 100 possessions. They are plus 16 per 100 possessions with Kawhi Harden, Powell and Zubots on the floor. Plus 167 and 460 minutes. Whoa, boy. The Wolves, I just mentioned 14 and 3 trending well. They are the fourth best net rating in the West. The Warriors 21 and 3 with Butler and Curry lost last night. And then Memphis rounds out that group. They have actually won their last two games. John Morant got fined for making the shooting gun motion. Can we do. Do we need to address that there? I guess there was a lot of, a lot of like, well, everybody does the, the, you know, it's called shooting. That's what people call it. It's three point shooting. And everybody does some. Tons of players do some version of a mimicking of like oh, whatever gun thing when they make threes or something approaching that. Why is Ja. Why is Ja singled out? My reaction was like, really? You guys, you guys don't know why Jaws getting singled out for that? You don't know why he's the only one getting punished? Like, just really, that's, that's, that's hard to understand.

Howard Beck (11:05)

There were two things there actually that I thought made it clear why Jaw is being singled out. Yeah, of course he's being singled out. One is, yeah, his history and the fact that he was suspended twice for two instances of flashing what appeared to be actual guns on Instagram Live. So yes, the league is of course going to be more sensitive to you. Just like there are certain guys in the league who are more likely to get rung up for flagrants and Texts based on their behavior. Like you, you have a track record. So that's one. The second is it seemed to me, Zach, that when Ja did the, the, the two finger point gun thingies, it was, it was directly at the warriors bench, at Buddy Healed, at whoever. So instead of like the Mikhail Bridges or other guys who like are shooting things in the air and they're like skeet shooting and they're, they're, I don't know, shoot arrows and things, this wasn't like a celebration. This looked more threatening. And I think the fact that it, and I haven't asked the league on this, but the fact that it was actually aimed at someone as a threat, plus his history to me is probably why, yes, you get the fine also. You got the warning first, then you got the fine because you defied it and did it again. Like at that point you're asking for it, you're defying the league, you're flipping off the commissioner's office like that's just not smart. And, and so I have, you know, it's hard for me to hear anybody trying to defend it or making him out to be some sort of victim at this point.

Zach Lowe (12:29)

Yeah, I have nothing more to say about it. Yeah, maybe, maybe just don't do it would be my, my gentle advice.

Howard Beck (12:36)

Easy enough. Yeah. No guns, no fake guns, no real guns, no finger guns, just no guns. How about that?

Zach Lowe (12:41)

So the west as I just described is a complete mess. Like, who knows who's going to be 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, who's going to have to go through the play in which apparently Dallas and Sacramento are just going to limp right into that play. And Sacramento, nice one last night again in Cleveland because Phoenix wants absolutely no part of it. And it's just, it's so jumbled and there are so many teams going in up and down and sideways and the records are the same, the tiebreakers are all over the place. And you're tempted to say, well, it looks, looks pretty open. Like the Lakers have a playoff formula. The Rockets, I mean the Rockets, yeah, their half court offense is only so, so trended better as the season's been going along. They found something with this Adams Shen goon just beat the hell out of you. Double big lineup. Yeah, it might be flawed. Their half court offense, their, their shooting is so, so. Their spacing is so, so they are just freaking good and tough. Their defense is legit and they are going to beat the crap out of you for seven straight games. And you're going to feel that whether you win that Series or not, they could, they can beat any of these teams. Two to seven, two to eight, like from any, they could win any series. And they reminded everybody of that last night. And then you still have the Thunder that are like a million games ahead of, ahead of everyone else. So let's start there. Two game losing streak over the weekend. And that Lakers game, all the eyes of the league were on that game. Let's see how the Lakers match up with this, the new look Lakers. The Luca Lakers match up with the Thunder. What did you take away from, from the Lakers blowing the doors off the Thunder on the road?

Howard Beck (14:15)

Before I forget, just one quick observation. I can't remember, Zach, and I don't know if you have a thought here. I don't think I can remember any year where in either conference you looked with a week to go and said there are seven teams that could make the conference finals. Like, I don't think I'd rule out anybody except for maybe like I'll downgrade Memphis a little bit, just some volatility there. But the top seven in the standings right now, any two of them are in the conference finals. And of course we expect the Thunder will be there. But Thunder and whoever it could be anybody. And given, you know, just given the Thunder's lack of playoff experience, I think people are still kind of waiting to see, like, okay, well, you're a thousand games ahead of us, but let's see you prove it now in the postseason. But I don't recall, like this is the, the extreme parody that the league absolutely loves. Like there's a legitimate case, except One.

Zach Lowe (15:06)

Team has 64 wins.

Howard Beck (15:08)

Except, I know, but the parity is, is two through seven or two through eight, however you want to slice it. Every single one of those teams. I feel like, look, and it, it.

Zach Lowe (15:17)

It, it seems, it seems to. So it sort of catches you off guard because everything has changed so fast. I read those records. These teams in their last 17, 18 games are just rolling through wins. The Nuggets are, are 5 and 9 in their last 14 games. Strother just got healthy. Jamal Murray hasn't been healthy. Been a weird year for them. Just one of those years. And they've fallen back to the pack. And like the Clippers, you know, there's always going to be some lag time with them because Kawhi took a long time to come back. And then there's just sort of residual, like, why am I even, why would I believe this? Why would I have faith in it? And then the games and the wins and the numbers pile up and you're like, I don't know, like the sample size is pretty big now that when they have everybody, they're, they have the statistical profile of a legit contending team. And Minnesota, same thing. Both of Those teams were 32 and 29. Middling. Middling. Now in the west, middling is tough. In the east, middling is the Bulls, who are hot. Great, good. Congratulations. And they're both 14 and 3 since being 32 and 29. The wolves got Randall back. He's fit back in. Go Bear is playing some of the best basketball he's played in a long time. And Ant is Ant. And they, they've got through the suspensions with the Pistons brawl thing. And yeah, like 32 and 29, you're 60 games in, you're, you're kind of like, okay, I guess those teams are just what they are. And then you wake up, you're like, wait a second, are they, are they much more than we thought they were? But, but let's go back to Thunder, Lakers.

Howard Beck (16:49)

What struck you, what struck me is that Luka still owns the Thunder number one. Like this. This has to be the only bigger nightmare for the Thunder than Luca being on the Mavericks with a full complement around him is now Lucas on the Lakers and, and standing there next to LeBron James. About a month ago, when the Lakers had first gotten off to this hot start and we're still trying to process why. Well, you know, they don't have much size and maybe, you know, do they have enough depth and you know, what is this team now? And there was a coach I was talking to at the time and I'm like, what, what? Like what is the magic of this going right, right now? And he says, don't overthink it. The Lakers have two of the top five players in the NBA. It's as simple as that. And I said, wait, wait, hold on. Did you say two of the top five? LeBron's top five coach said, yeah, Reeves, Rio.

Zach Lowe (17:41)

Are we putting Reeves into the top five? Boy, oh boy, is he.

Howard Beck (17:44)

If we, if we reaves.

Zach Lowe (17:46)

I mean, I don't even know what to like. Does he belong in the most improved player conversation again? I don't, I, I don't. Does Rui. I mean, those two guys have upped their level. And even if the stats don't show it, Rui is a more complete all around player than he's ever been. And Reeves is, you know, I keep hearing like, oh, he can average 23, 24 on a different team. He's already averaging 21 almost on this team. He's just a really, really good offensive player.

Howard Beck (18:09)

He is. I mean, and let's be clear, like, he's obviously benefiting quite a bit too from his, the amount of attention that's paid to the two superstars he's playing alongside. Like, if you put, you know, Austin Reaves on a team with know, zero stars, is he carrying them to 45 wins tomorrow? I, I don't know if we can go that far yet, but he's been phenomenal. Ru's been fantastic. Gabe Vincent, G. Gabe. Gabe Vincent shooting lights out a lot of nights, busting his ass defensively and giving them like one of the, the concerns I think we all had about them after the trade was. All right, well, Anthony Davis was your defensive anchor. You don't have a lot of size. They're playing small ball a lot. Do they have enough defense on the perimeter to make up for the fact that they don't have a classic rim protector back there? And yet for the most part it's, there's been some dips, but for the most part the defense has been there. And you know, there's a temptation, I think, yes, with yesterday's game to look at this and say Lakers go 22 of 40 from three right season high, 22, three pointers. They hit 20 I think on two other occasions. So this is an outlier game for them. They're, they're average per game. I think they've been hitting like, I don't know, 13 threes or something a game. And, and they, they hit 22. That's, that's probably an outlier game. Not just, you know, literally, but like you're not, you, you're not reproducing that every night. And if you were going in a best of seven series against the Thunder, I don't think you're counting on that. But it is one of those modern day games where we have to sit there and say, well, sometimes the team that just shoots the three better wins it. This is one of those classic cases. The Thunder went 12 of 37 from, from 3 and then keep holding. Shade is zero free throw attempts for the first time since 2020. December of 2021 was the last time he played a game without a single free throw attempt. Notably though a couple nights earlier against the Rockets, he was held to two free throws. So I don't like, is Shea downshifting a little bit as the like because they've got such a massive lead? Is he a little tired? Is he saving it for the playoffs. How much do we attribute. Like, obviously, you know, against the Rockets they've got phenomenal defenses. We were just discussing with them against the warriors, but I don't know. I'm not sure how much I want to take away from it other than Luca cooked the shit out of them. And he is still just absolutely devastating when he's going to get a big on an island and he can just do whatever he wants.

Zach Lowe (20:33)

I'm not going to overreact to it because of the shooting data that you just posited.

Howard Beck (20:38)

And they play again tomorrow night.

Zach Lowe (20:40)

I have a. That's true. I have a lot of faith in the Thunder defense, obviously their number one defense by far in the NBA. You just said big on an island and that was what was notable to me about that game is I thought the Lakers had a really good balance in where they targeted their offense. The game before that they played the warriors and Luca was kind of invisible in that game because the warriors play Draymond at center a lot and they switch a lot. They don't have a big guy all the time out there that you can. Just a big center that Luka can. That's who he loves to torture the most. Whether it's getting switches or getting lob dunks for his pick and roll center. The warriors don't always play that kind of player. And Luka kind of got lost in the game as the Lakers are hunting Steph curry and like LeBron's been hunting Steph Curry for 10 years. Like that's just how they play against the Thunder. You have Hartenstein and he just tortured Hartenstein. It was. It's the same movie we've seen over and over again. And they did go at SGA a little bit. SGA is not a weak link defender by any stretch. He just happens to be like the smallest guy in a lot of Thunder lineups. And I thought that sort of balance of where they directed their offense and how Luca was able to participate more than he did against the warriors was telling and would concern me a little bit if I were the Thunder. And again, I'm looking for like actual signs of concern. Another one would be Casen Wallace, Alex Caruso, Aaron Wiggins, just too small for LeBron and Luca. Caruso can put up a fight and he. He has just incredible hands, but it's got to be Dort and J Dub on those guys. And. And I think the Thunder are smart to sort of see if their smaller handsier guys can BOTHER Luca and LeBron. And again this is a matchup. We may never see this matchup again after tomorrow night. Like this may be totally irrelevant to Oklahoma City and the Lakers playoff prognosis, but they bullied those guys. And the other thing that was notable to me was the Lakers. They, it reminded me of the Mavericks in the playoffs last year where they really shrunk the floor on the Thunder. Like they clogged up the paint, they clogged up Shay's drives. Paint was crowded. Thunder don't have great spacing, especially when they have the two bigs out there, but they have decent spacing and they did it without really abandoning the Thunder's best three point shooters. They just are a very smart, rangy defensive team. And you mentioned their lack of size. When people say that they mean sort of lack of a true center behind Hayes. Yeah, they, they have a lot of big players on their team. They have a lot of power forward sized players on their team. They cover space really in, in really smart ways. They rotate on a string. They don't over commit one way or under commit the other way. And they kind of had the Thunder paused a little bit. And not only that, the Chet Hartenstein double big lineup is one of the biggest wild cards in the league. It's not much of a wildcard anymore. It's been going on for a while and the Lakers were like, we're not afraid of that group. We're not afraid to play small against that group. We'll put wings on both of them. We don't think Chet can hurt us down low. We don't think Hartenstein can hurt us down low. And I think Harden, that that double big group has been, has given Oklahoma City a different ingredient offensively in terms of Hartenstein's short role, his floater, his passing, I think that's been more important to them offensively than defensively even. And the Lakers were like, yeah, we're not, we're not that scared of it. It was it. I mean, all that said, I'm not, I'm not going to overreact to it, but all of that was encouraging me if I'm a Lakers fan and a little bit troubling to me if I'm a Thunder fan. And you mentioned Vincent, the Lakers have a good nine man rotation, their starting five is good. And then off the bench it's Vincent, Vinnie Smith, Goodwin who I love. I have a soft spot for Jordan, Goodwin and Vanderbilt. And I think one of the underrated little subplots of the AD Luca trade is one of the benefits of not Having a. So. So shooting some. I mean, so. So shooting center. Traditional center. Which AD was for them, much to his chagrin. Apparently that has. That is so good that he's got to play 35, 40 minutes a game when it matters. Now Hayes can play 8 minutes, 12 minutes, 15 minutes. It, it allows them to play Vanderbilt a lot more without compromising their spacing fatally. And Vanderbilt's just been good for them like he's been. He's a good defense player. You can guard all kinds of different positions. They're becoming a really interesting team. And that game, yeah, it's a shooting luck game. I said the Thunder won it on shot quality, whatever. It had some like, that was a playoff formula kind of game for the Lakers. And it, it had some things that. If I'm a Thunder coach, I'm going back to the film. I'm like, let me see how that looked. Let me see how that looked.

Howard Beck (25:20)

Yeah, and that's why I'm, I think there's plenty to take out of it, especially if you're the Lakers. Maybe less if you're the Thunder. And I think, you know, it's. It's weird to say of a team that has LeBron and Luke on it, but like, the Lakers kind of needed this more right now, like literally in the standings. They needed it more. And I think just to kind of, you know, like, Luke has Nothing to prove, LeBron has nothing to prove. But together this. They have something to prove as the core of this completely reconfigured team. And guys like Vanderbilt and Gabe Vincent, who at times have looked like really important pickups for the Lakers over the last couple seasons, but have both been banged up. That they're healthy and thriving and giving them a different defensive dimension and tone is really important. And I think just everything that allows the Lakers to see like the full picture of who they can, who they can be in the postseason. I think all that's really significant for them. And you know, and, and I'll, I'll be honest. I, I have from the moment the trade happened, which we still can't quite put our heads around and maybe we never will. I, I have been skeptical, like it looked like a win now move for the Mavericks by their own definition, which made no sense, of course, but it was a, for the next 10 years move for the Lakers. And I thought there would be some short term slippage perhaps. Like it was a, it was short term. Take a step back. We, we, you know, we. Our defensive anchor is gone. We. We got to incorporate Luca. He's not healthy when he arrives. We've got a supporting cast that's still kind of in flux. Like, we don't have size, we don't have a center. We traded for Mark Williams, we rescinded the trade for Mark Willis. And I thought, it doesn't matter. None of this matters. This is about the next 10 years. And lo and behold, here they are, you know, sitting in third in the Western Conference and looking very, very potent and very, very ready to make a deep playoff run that, I'll be honest, I, I was not sure was on the table. And they have made a, they've made a lot of progress in a lot of places in a very short time.

Zach Lowe (27:19)

Well, and just, you know, they're not scared of any of these other teams. Like the Nuggets are. Disarray is too strong of a word. But it's just been one of those years where it just feels like they may not have enough. It may not all come together health wise, performance wise. Their defense is a disaster right now. Clippers will see warriors like they're hot. You know, they beat the Lakers over the weekend. These are all good teams, but the Lakers aren't scared of any of them. And yeah, it turns out adding Luca to your team is, is really good. I don't even want to talk about. I don't want to do the trade thing. I will just say that, that maybe just Patrick Dumont should just shut it down in the media for a while. Just, just shut it down. Just, just, just don't make any more comments. It's not, it's not helping. You're not helping. And by the way, they play in Dallas in two days, I think this Wednesday, don't they play?

Howard Beck (28:12)

Yeah, yeah. No, that, that's frigging huge. Our buddy Mark Stein is like in the midst of like a 17 part series or something, reviewing how we got here. It's phenomenal.

Zach Lowe (28:21)

Trying to get him on the Zach Low show on Thursday to, to recap what it, what it's going to be like to be in the building in, in Dallas on Wednesday night.

Howard Beck (28:30)

I can't even imagine. That's going to be a weird one, right? Just because, like, I was there for LeBron back to Cleveland the first time after he left for Miami. But that was. LeBron left, he abandoned you. And so it was like the nastiest, just, just most intense atmosphere I've ever been in in terms of just everybody in the whole building having it out for one guy. And it got really, really ugly at times. But this won't be that because Luca didn't leave them, he didn't abandon them like, like the Mav. You know, Mavs fans are still just pissed off at, at Nico Harrison and, and Patrick Dumont. So I assume it's going to be mostly a love fest, but a really awkward kind of like crappy feeling one right like there. I don't, I don't know what to expect from that game. I will never say that anybody should shut it down on the, on the, the interviews part of it because as a member of the media, by all means keep saying stuff. Well, it's, it's, it's great for us and I appreciate the candor. Even if it makes you look like a complete buffoon.

Zach Lowe (29:27)

It hasn't been great. The messaging has, has not been great.

Howard Beck (29:30)

It's not been great.

Zach Lowe (29:34)

Yeah. And obviously what has unfolded in Dallas with all the injuries, particularly Kyrie's injury is, is an absolute worst case scenario. It's been interesting to watch AD play a lot of four. He's playing a lot of five twos, playing a little bit of both. Because Lively and Gafford have been in and out and on minutes restrictions. You can see it sometimes, you know, like, like AD and Lively hooked up on some really nice passing sequences the other day and, and the size and the rebounding and the athleticism are just, they jump off the charts. And then there are games where it's like, yeah, he's gonna have to take a lot of jump shots. He's gonna have to ISO a lot from the left wing because he's a four and the lane is clogged and is that really what I want Anthony Davis doing all of the time? I, I wish we could see the team right. Like, I, I think it's an interesting team. With Kyrie, we're just not gonna be able to see it. And look, this is. If we're, who knows if we're going to be able to see it next year. You never know with ACL injuries. He's Kyrie's at the very least going to miss a huge chunk of next season. And this is again, I mean I tweeted this weeks ago, months ago. Like, even if you think that this trade helped your short term championship equity, which I would vehemently disagree with because you just made the finals. You were just in the finals and you were awesome in this regular season when you had everybody healthy when, when Luca and Kyrie and, and they're the, the same group that got them to the finals last year were healthy. But even if you Posit that. Even if you posit the Mavericks are right about their short term championship equity, trading up in age by 5 or 6 years or whatever it is makes you uniquely vulnerable to one injury. One injury. And it's like the Nuggets were able to ride out two lost seasons basically of Jamal Murray and Michael Porter Jr going out or in and out and just sort of. Their team was in purgatory for two years and they were young enough that they were like, you know what? We can just ride this out. Jokic is incredible. Hopefully we don't exhaust him in these playoff series. And they came back and they won a championship. The Mavericks don't have that anyway. I can't. Yeah, let's stop. I can't believe it. I. Every day I wake up and I'm.

Howard Beck (31:40)

Like, we will be talking about this for years. The rest of our careers, the rest of our lives, we will still be trying to unpack this puzzle. It'll never make sense.

Zach Lowe (31:51)

I don't have any other takeaways from Oklahoma City. Oklahoma City Lakers, A bad game for the Thunder. Bad games happen. Again, I. I cannot stress this enough. The Thunder and the Cavaliers have zero to play for. There is a very natural decline in intensity as we get to this point of the season where. All right, can we just get the. Like, we're the number one. See, can we just get the play. Can we just get some of the Thunder players?

Howard Beck (32:14)

Some of the Thunder players set it out right after the game yesterday. I saw some quotes in, in the Oklahoman to my buddy Joel Lorenzi where they were saying, like, Shay said it, and I think maybe Jaylen Williams said it too. Like, you know. Yeah, you know, hate to say it, but it, you know, we. We've got everything locked up. You know, they're playing out the string. So like, who knows, like, the rematch tomorrow night may not even, like, will everybody play? And how much are these teams showing each other, you know, with. With days to go? So I don't want to put too much on it.

Zach Lowe (32:42)

The Houston loss, I don't know if you saw that. The Houston Oklahoma City game on Friday was almost more interesting to me because Houston just beat the hell out of them. Like Sengun, they started with Chet on Shengoon and Sengun just feasted on Chet and they switched the match up to put Harenstein on Shenun, which they did not want to do initially. And offensive rebounding, they had their way. And always the he against the Thunder. If you can win or be equal in turnovers, limit their steals, you have a chance against them. And that's what the Rockets did. That was almost a more interesting game to me. The Lakers lost the turnover battle, but won handily anyway because they shot the hell out of it. Look, my, My Finals prediction from day one, you can go on X and see it, even though I had no job at the time, was Celtics over Thunder. It was the chalk pick. I, I almost went Denver and I just. There's. I was just hearing too much, Too much bad stuff from Denver. Too much like a lot of got to go right for you to make the Finals. So I went Celtics over Thunder. I'm sticking with that. That's still my Finals pick. I don't know if you made a Finals. I don't know if they make you make predictions or what it was.

Howard Beck (33:49)

We did. Yeah, no, we did. We did the whole staff picks thing back in October and I went Thunder over Celtics on the premise that, like, you know, the obvious for why the two teams would be there, but why Thunder winning? I looked at it in the preseason and said the Celtics are going to have a much tougher road this time. There's the championship hangover possibility. Just. It's hard to go back to back seasons. It's a ton of games. It's a lot of stress on the body. But on top of that, the east was going to be better this season. Right. I didn't see this coming from the Cavaliers and I thought that Philly.

Zach Lowe (34:17)

Philly really loaded up in the off season.

Howard Beck (34:21)

I mean, yes, I mean my, my, my rationale was the Celtics are going to have to go through some combination of like Knicks, Philly, Milwaukee, Cleveland, whatever. I probably didn't even put Cleveland in that conversation. Apologies, Cleveland. None of us saw this coming. And I don't think, I mean, I.

Zach Lowe (34:37)

Didn'T see this coming, but I was, I was telling people Cleveland's could be really good.

Anthony Slater (34:40)

Yeah.

Howard Beck (34:41)

But at this level, and I don't think we saw even the most skeptical or the most, you know, ptsd, you know, stricken Sixer fans would not have predicted this is how the Sixer season was going to go. So I, I thought the Celtics might be more beat up. And I, so I went, ah, all right. Really deep team, younger legs, you know, spry, athletic Thunder team over Celtics. So that was, that was my prediction back in October, but predictions are stupid, so.

Zach Lowe (35:06)

Well, congrats to the Sixers. They have risen to fifth in the lottery standings, which is big for them with their top six protection pick going huge.

Howard Beck (35:13)

Yay.

Zach Lowe (35:14)

Tanking Philadelphia lottery is going to be interesting. Lottery is going to heavy drama in the draft lottery.

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Syndrome and medications including Botulinum toxins as these may increase the risk of serious side effects. For full safety information, visit botoxcosmetic.com or call 877-351-0300. See for yourself@botoxcosmetic.com do some awards talk?

Howard Beck (36:37)

Sure.

Zach Lowe (36:38)

Start with the Big Kahuna. This is not, not a hot take, I don't think. I still haven't decided who I would vote for for mvp. I, I, I just like how am I supposed to even decide every time you're like, well, SGA's team is 15 games up in the standings. He's incredible. Blah blah. It's like oh, what did, what did Jokic have? 37, 15 and 11 or whatever. And yeah, Denver is losing and maybe, you know, it's hard to put, it's hard to vote if they're in the play in I, it's going to be hard for people to get there and SGA is probably going to win it anyway. But it's I, I would have been leaning SGA because I just think statistically Jokic's dossier is a little bit better, but it's, it's pretty close. And some of the advanced metrics actually favor Shea, but both of them are historically incredible statistical seasons. Yeah, SGA is a better defensive player, Jokic is a better offensive player and just sort of tie goes to the guy whose team is whatever, 64 and whatever they are right now that still holds some logic to me. But I just every Jokic every every day I just keep coming back to who's, who's just better and I just think Jokic is is better and impacts every single possession a teensy bit more heavily on offense than SGA does. But defensively this has not been a good joke. It's year defensively it's not been a good Denver year defensively and SGA does more than his parts now. I I, there was some, I can't remember which Thunder game I was watching where someone was trying to make it all defense case for Shea. I don't see that because he just doesn't have to guard the best players in their team and the Thunder like nine other candidates. But I I would take this to the wire if I had a ballot, which I do not.

Howard Beck (38:32)

I do have a ballot and among the caveats I'll throw out there as as we record this on on a Monday with a week to go and I think the ballots will be due like exactly a week from today. The 65 game rule throws a wrench into things because what happens is the NBA can't even finalize the the ballots, all the drop down menus for us to fill out until we know who actually qualified. And some of this will come down to the last game potentially because there's 20 minute subsections and all this other bullshit. I hate the 65 game rule. It's driving me crazy. I get the intent behind it. I'm fine with the intent behind it but it, it wreaks havoc for us on some level.

Zach Lowe (39:06)

I don't mind it except I would like it to not apply to third team all NBA and most improved player. And I don't know, does it apply to all rookie. I mean all rookie is just.

Howard Beck (39:19)

No, I don't think it applies to all rookies.

Zach Lowe (39:21)

It's not, it's not going great for the all rookie teams.

Howard Beck (39:25)

All rookies always just a mess anyway. But no, my, my issue with it is just that if like you know, if Kevin Durant, you know, gets to 64 games but not 65 and he's and, and like the Suns are in like a tailspin. So it's hard to make the case for, for Durant right now if you want to factor in wins.

Zach Lowe (39:42)

Although for all to be clear, he's at 62 right now and he's still out with an ankle injury and still out.

Howard Beck (39:47)

So he's cutting it close. I think Jalen Brunson's still on the cusp. He Just came back. So he's probably gonna make it with.

Zach Lowe (39:52)

Enough games to go that he can make it.

Howard Beck (39:54)

Yeah, unless they hold him out a game for some reason, which I think you don't. You probably don't do when you're cognizant of the 65 game rule. Right. You're going to make sure that he qualifies. But I don't like how close it comes because if a guy that you thought was absolutely going to be in high consideration or certainly like all NBA third team or whatever, and he falls one game short and now you have to give it to the guy who played 66 games, who had a worse season than the guy who had 64.

Zach Lowe (40:17)

Julius Randall memorial all NBA spot. That's what we should call that. I mean, that's what it is.

Howard Beck (40:22)

So first caveat is that we don't know who's going to qualify for sure. Second caveat is this is a first draft for me. Right. So you told me we were going to do some.

Zach Lowe (40:29)

Tell me who your MVP is.

Howard Beck (40:30)

I think it's sga. Bon Temps hit us with the last of his polls a week ago. I had SGA there. I had, I think I had, I had, I think I'd say there the previous time too, as you know, because you and I have discussed this on, on previous pods going back years now, which is hard to believe, but I think going all the way back to the year that, that Westbrook won it, I think you went kawhi that year. I went harden that year. And we all had a conversation about how much do the wins matter. I am, you know, if you want to call it a traditionalist on this, if you want to say I'm a prisoner of the past or whatever, fine. I think the precedent matters. Like to me, yes, we, we get frustrated in our conversations, debates over these awards because there's no definition, you know, we don't know what it means. It's eye of the beholder and like, oh, this is so frustrating. Is it. Is it most outstanding? Is it most. This is the most. That to me, the guideline for how we know what the MVP is or what the defensive player of the year is or any of these is, is that we have history as a guide. And I think the consensus of decades gives you some semblance of a reasonable framework. And that framework for most of the last 40 years for MVP has been 50 plus win team, top two, top three in the conference. And then we had an outlier Westbrook. Then we had another outlier Jokic, a couple years back and, and those are fine. Like I'm not sitting here in judgment of those. I dissented on, on, on both of those on my ballot. But I do think the wins matter. And it's not just a purely individual award. Historically, it just isn't. And if you want to make it that you, Zach Lowe, you, any other people out there who are voters, non voters, fans, media, it's fine. It is eye of the beholder. And if you want it to be most outstanding player Jokic, and you just made the case. Zach Jokic is fucking awesome. And as great as Shai is. Is he as great as as Jokic overall? Probably not. His team has won not just more, but a lot more. And I think that having the MVP come from a team that's clearly in contention for the title matters to me and I think to the extent that MVP that the V matters, the V the value of it, again, I have the behold holder. How do people define value? I think value is that you had an outstanding individual season for an outstanding team. The Nuggets have been a very, very good team. They are at the moment not quite outstanding. They may not make it to 50 wins and again, I don't mean to be rigid about.

Zach Lowe (42:56)

They might not make it into the top six.

Howard Beck (42:57)

They might not make it to top six. I don't want to be rigid about it, but if people are going to come back at me and by the way, if you want to debate me in any of this or hit me with feedback, hit me only on Blue Sky. I'm not on the other platform anymore. If you want to say that the wins are being overstated by me or anyone else, then consider the possibility that the Nuggets fall to the play in. Do you still want to make yoke at your mvp? If he's in a plan and if you, if you pause on that, then you've just acknowledged the point that I've been making for years which is the wins matter and the only debate we really have is how much they matter. Is 47 okay? Is 50 okay? Is the sixth seed okay? Or do you need to make it to the third seed? So it matters to everybody and it's just a matter of where you want to draw the line in an individual season and if we want to play the stats game and go on stat head and configure to see if this is a historic season like Shay is having one of the great all time scoring seasons.

Zach Lowe (43:51)

Both of them are worthy mvp.

Howard Beck (43:52)

They're both worthy.

Zach Lowe (43:53)

I will say like I'M not going to object to anyone who picks Jokic or sga. Like I they're absolutely both valid arguments and and they're the on off numbers which has been the Jokic stat for so long. The Thunder it's unclear if they would have a viable offense at a really good elite. Like we can win a playoff series level without sga. Like he is the offense and so the on off stuff doesn't favor either one of them. They both have crazy on off splits and like we can you can dismiss it if you want. That's fine. You know at YIC is a better passer and and I do think games like yesterday Thunder Lakers are do raise the question of like is there enough collective sort of offensive ingenuity in the half court for the Thunder? When it really gets down to it their off half court offensive numbers are outstanding. You would say yes. Maybe. We'll see. I remember last year Luca finished the season on such a role that I felt like Dallas fans were owed an explanation. Why is the MVP Jokic over Luca? Why why was I leading Jokic and I just kept coming back to size. The ability to do all of that and be that big just gives him access to more areas of the court, easier shots. It just to to be that huge in this creative a passer, a ball handler, a shooter, it just unlocks infinite possibilities for the Nuggets offense before you even get to the fact that he might he's going to be in the conversation for the greatest passer in the history of basketball. All that said, the defense has been bad for for Denver this year. This is not a good year for Jokic. So I don't know what I would do if I were a voter. I respect either case. I would just be the one thing I will say is with apologies to our our boss Giannis is third for me and I don't think there's any I don't think there can be any question about that. The 20 assist game the other night he's putting up double digit assists regularly. Now with Dame out as great as Jason Tatum is I I can't get there with him as third in MVP over Giannis.

Howard Beck (46:06)

I'm still toggling between those two admittedly and I will just quick couple things just pet peeves on the MVP discussion. I don't want to hear if Shea wins it. I want to don't want to hear anybody telling me that this is voter fatigue. This has nothing to do with voter fatigue. That's insulting to the season that Shay Gilgeous Alexander is having. It's certainly insulting to the voters. And there's a whole other rant about the history of that, that phrasing and everything and that, that point that I don't want to go into, but like, it's this, this won't be voter fatigue. Shay's earned this and he's having an incredible season for a team that's having an incredible season and they're far and away the best team in the Western Conference. So there's not that, the other thing, the on off stuff you. You mentioned. Just a real quick point that I always make on this one is just that if we get a little too caught up in the on off, what happens is it elevates a guy who, with a, with a, a, a shittier supporting cast and a shittier bench and it punishes the guy who has the better supporting cast on a better bench. And if you say, well, that's not fair to the player, the players done everything they could. Yeah. Again, that's why MVP is never truly, solely purely an individual award. There is a team element to it and it's, it is like if I hate to put this out there as this reductive definition, but like, I think the platonic ideal would be the best player on best team definition. Right. If you could do that every year, like, you want it to be a guy who's awesome and his team is really great too. That's the platonic ideal. So I think, like, I, you know, we don't get there every year because a lot of seasons there's a guy who had an incredible season on only a very good team or somebody who was only very good on a great team. Shay's checking both boxes for his case. If we were going to. Again, if we're going to be reductive, which maybe I'm being. But anyway.

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Howard Beck (48:31)

Very.

Zach Lowe (48:33)

I will start. Go first team Jokic, sga, Giannis Tatum, I think are going to be close to unanimous.

Howard Beck (48:43)

Yes.

Zach Lowe (48:44)

It's the fifth spot that I've been toggling back and forth between. It's going to go to one of Mitchell Curry or Anthony Edwards.

Howard Beck (48:52)

Are you going position? Are you still going by position?

Zach Lowe (48:55)

No.

Howard Beck (48:55)

Okay.

Zach Lowe (48:56)

The rules are the rules. I follow the rules. Okay. I think Curry is the best player of those three and has had the best Curry. Mitchell is very close statistically.

Howard Beck (49:07)

Yeah.

Zach Lowe (49:08)

And it's the minutes is very persuasive with Ant. The fact that he plays every game he's played like he's put like 500 more minutes than Curry or something like that. That's interesting. I would, I would pencil in Mitchell right now. Just let me default to the team. That's been one of the stories of the season. So let's just pencil in Mitchell for first team and I'll do my second team and then I'll stop. Okay. My second team would then be. If that's where I go. Edwards, Curry, Evan Mobley, LeBron James. And this might surprise some people. I think a late surge combined with some injuries to other players and some slides down the standings for Memphis in particular. I think Tyrese Halliburton would be my fifth guy on second team all NBA. He's like first of all the statistics advance and otherwise just scream out for him. Yeah, I know he got off to a slow start. The first six weeks it was like what's wrong with Tyres Halliburton? Is it still injurable? He has been lights out for quite a while now and the Pacers are just really, really good. I think that's where I would lean.

Howard Beck (50:14)

Yeah.

Zach Lowe (50:15)

Hit me with your tentative first two.

Howard Beck (50:16)

I think we overlapped on eight of ten. So my, my tentative first five again.

Zach Lowe (50:20)

Yeah.

Howard Beck (50:20)

The locks are Shea, Jokic, Tatum and Giannis. My fifth also penciled in Don Mitchell and I think again like all NBA less so than mvp. Like the wins matter but it's not as persuasive mvp. Like I think it's intrinsic to the award. All NBA. It is more individual.

Zach Lowe (50:43)

Yes.

Howard Beck (50:44)

And agreed. And I think that that's part of why we can make the case for potentially Curry over, over Mitchell for that, that fifth spot. By the way, I also, I was.

Zach Lowe (50:54)

Leaning that way and like I'm not going to be susceptible to the whims of every individual game but you know, like we'll see how the season goes.

Howard Beck (51:01)

We'll see. Yeah, I mean, you know it's. I mean Steph is the, the most efficient of the high scoring guards by far. Still at age 37. And I'm not saying wait it for the age, I'm just saying he, he's still absolutely incredible.

Zach Lowe (51:20)

Just, just to be clear, 24 points, 6 assists, 45 overall, 39.7. I'm giving him 40, 40 on 11 threes a game and per 36 minutes he's at 27 points a game. So everyone that, that's the same as Mitchell because Mitchell is obviously sacrificed. He doesn't play a lot of. There's been fourth quarters where they haven't needed him. So his, his per game stuff is lower than his per minute stuff. But Steph matches it and look, I don't need to tell anybody that 40 on 11 threes combined with his off ball movement, he remains a singular offensive force the likes of which there has never been, both in terms of impact and style. It's just playing them is just a different animal than playing any other team and it's all because of him. Still.

Howard Beck (52:06)

Yeah. So with Mitchell pencil and on on the first team and by the way, I still, I'm a creature of habit in part just because it was easier to organize my thoughts. Zach. I still went two guards and I went, I didn't go two forwards in a center, I went two guards, three front court for each of these and then I gave myself room and I'm giving myself room for the next week as I keep playing with this to then scrap that if I feel like somebody is just clearly better than somebody in another position. But so that's the first team, second team, Curry Ant, Edwards, Mobley. So we overlap on those three. At the moment I've got Jaren Jackson Jr and Carl Anthony Towns Fair. I mean Jaren Jackson Jr's had an outstanding season and in a year where JA has played what like half the games less and they don't really have a lot of places to go for consistent offense, especially in the half court. His defensive presence, all of it combined and then Carl Anthony Towns. You know, like there's there have been times this season where it's been hard to kind of like parse who's been the more important Nick. And that's no disrespect to Brunson, but especially with Brunson having missed a month, you know, in Towns just you know, kind of was their stabilizing force. So that's where I am right now. But the other guys you mentioned are on my third team.

Zach Lowe (53:24)

Yeah, I have no problem with that. And in fact Kat and Jerry and Jackson Jr. Have been on my second team for the most part in the last month and I just recently shifted them down for no other reason. I just think LeBron's been unbelievable and Halliburton's been unbelievable. Cat has been fantastic the entire season. Defensively, he just is, he is what he is. Like he's, he's not had a great defensive season. The Knicks have not had a great defensive season. But I've had him second team most of the year. I wouldn't, I wouldn't quibble. I wouldn't quibble hardly at all with that. And Jaren Jackson Jr. Same thing. I mean lately he's gotten back into some, some foul trouble habits that still drive me nuts. Yeah, but that would, that would bring, that brings me to third team right now, which is again, it's all tentative. People can shift around. I don't even have a ballot. Who cares? My third team, like absolute stone cold lock. Cat and Jaren Jackson Jr. They're both on it. They're both, they're both making it all NBA team on my face. Whether it's second or third. They're both locked in. If Brunson gets to 65 games, I'm putting them on 13. You could make a case for him just for second team, maybe in his minutes or he still played more minutes than Steph despite playing in fewer games because, you know, Tibs, my fourth guy. So that's Brunson, Cat, Jaren Jackson Jr. I think Cade Cunningham's got to be there just to represent the Pistons and the seasons they've had. It got it is strong, but I have Kate Cunningham on and then that last spot. I've had Kevin Durant penciled in there if he makes 65 games and, and people are going to scoff at the Suns. Rightfully so. SCOFF all you want. 26 and a half points a game, six rebounds, four assists, 52%, 52.7% shooting, 43 on threes, 57 on twos. Like it's not his fault. I mean some of it is his fault, but it's not basketball wise his fault. However, he has not hit the 65 game threshold and the Sun's finish to the season has become so embarrassing that I'm willing to open that up. Which is feels crazy considering the statistics I just read. And yes, I think he has a better case than Devin Booker. I know book's been hot lately and has been their best passer this year. Nick Durant has a better case than Devin Booker. He's not had a great shooting season, particularly from three. I'm willing to open that Last spot up. You'll hear arguments that Jaylen Williams has got to be there because the Thunder need two representatives. It's not that persuasive for you but he's in the conversation. Sengun late run right now really sort of. If there's an answer to Houston's half court offense late in games, I think he's got to be a huge part of it and has been. James Harden like the shooting numbers are eh. It like really in but he's been the engine for them all year and let me, let me look them up because he just cracked I think 40% for. Yeah, 40 for the season. 34 and a half percent from 3, 46 and a half percent from 2. I don't know that I could get there with him but he does deserve credit again for playing every game and keeping them afloat and he's surging now with Kawhi next to him. Jalen Brown I don't think can get there. And by the way, have you seen Jalen Brown's recent comments about the state of his knee?

Howard Beck (56:44)

No, I did not.

Zach Lowe (56:46)

He's like been talking about how he's playing through some pain. I think it's a bone bruise or something. I can't remember what it is like not great, not great comments and you could make Trey Young Sabonis. I, I don't, I can't quite get there with him. It's undecided but Durant is in pencil but I got, I just got. He may not even be eligible. So give me your third team. Ron and Halliburton, right? That's two.

Howard Beck (57:11)

LeBron and Halliburton are two. I had same as you. I put Brunson if he qualifies and.

Zach Lowe (57:17)

If he doesn't, I'm assuming his comeback is being timed to qualify.

Howard Beck (57:22)

It seems so, right. I mean but who knows? I mean, you know, things happen, you know, he may, you know, bang knees with somebody and like you know, miss one one of the one last critical game down the stretch. Who knows. Or maybe they decide to rest him because they think it's more important. I don't know. Actually you've got the whole, the whole week off with the plane. Now you guys have time to rest up Cade. Cade has been awesome and I've seriously considered him. But I also I've been weighing whether or not Darius Garland is getting overlooked in all this. He's been outstanding and obviously this is Donovan Mitchell's team and we've already got Mobley on there as well or the Cavs. Good Enough for three all NBA players. That's feels maybe excessive, but I think Garland's been really good.

Zach Lowe (58:08)

He's not had a great finish finishing kick to the season.

Howard Beck (58:12)

No, but he was.

Zach Lowe (58:13)

I mean, look, I love Terry Scarland. The guy's one of my favorite players to watch. 20 a game, six and a half assists, 47, 40 from three could make the case. I just, I can't quite, can't quite get there.

Howard Beck (58:23)

And, and just like with Donovan Mitchell, like Garland's numbers would be higher if not for the fact that both of them have done a phenomenal job of just meshing their games and neither of them needing to dominate. But it does suppress his, his, his raw stats a little bit. I guess I've kicked around Siakam. I'm not sure.

Zach Lowe (58:40)

I'm glad you mentioned him. He deserves mention.

Howard Beck (58:42)

I think he's had a really strong season and for a team that's like, like the paces are really good, but this is not like some offensive juggernaut in terms of individual talent. You don't look across the board and go like, ooh, look at all these guys who could just kill you or put up 25, 30 night.

Zach Lowe (58:57)

He's one of the ultimate gap fillers in the NBA. Just one of these guys. Like whatever you need on either end of the floor, he can do some of it. It's. He's a very, very valuable player.

Howard Beck (59:07)

Yeah. And, and because of that, because he's more just kind of malleable or just, you know, filling whatever you need in a, in a given moment. It doesn't feel like the prototypical all NBA case because he's not a go to player. Right. And he's not some superstar dropping 30 on you every night. But he does a lot at both ends. Jalen Williams is, is in this mishmash of names I've got in front of me. I also had Kevin Durant kind of like just with an asterisk there. I. We set out at the beginning and said like, it's not about team success for all NBA as much as it is for mvp, but it does affect when you're trying to make a case for a guy like as you mentioned, Sabonis or Trey Young, it's easier to dismiss them because their teams are irrelevant and the Suns have just completely.

Zach Lowe (59:55)

I don't, I'm not going to let you say that about my Atlanta Hawks.

Howard Beck (59:58)

Irrelevant. Irrelevant.

Zach Lowe (60:00)

I like watching the Hawks. I think Trey Young's had kind of a good year. The shooting numbers aren't quite where they need to be given his limitations on defense. But here's what you want to hear. A fun set on Trae Young. Yeah Window. He has diversified his offense in in real ways that have helped Jalen Johnson's development before he got injured that have helped Dyson Daniels development. And here's just one small thing again, I don't think the shooting numbers are there for Troy Young to make an all NBA team, but I believe he does lead the NBA in assists. He has set more ball screens this year set more ball screens this year according to second Spectrum, at least as of last week than the entire prior career combined. Every season. Like it's not a ton, but I think it was over 200 when I checked so it's a few every game. He deserves some credit for that. But I. I can't get there. I just will not let you come on this pod. Come on the Zach Low show and call Quinn Snyder's glasses and Zachary Rishe one of the few Zachs in the NBA. Irrelevant. I just won't let you do it.

Howard Beck (61:07)

Are you. Are we not allowed to mock the Sally Jesse Raphael glasses anymore?

Zach Lowe (61:12)

He's been going black more lately. He's been going black the black lenses or the black frames more lately.

Howard Beck (61:16)

Yeah.

Zach Lowe (61:18)

I have a feeling he hears about this. When I make fun of the glasses and it drives him. I bet he's mad. I bet he gets mad. I don't make fun. I wish I could be that cool. I can't. If I don't wear glasses, I don't need glasses. But if I tried to do that, my. I just couldn't pull it off. People would laugh at me.

Howard Beck (61:37)

I've had glasses most of my adult life in phases, and I always have to go with the darker. I've never even considered like the Sally Jesse, Jesse Raphael red or any.

Zach Lowe (61:47)

You were making an all NBA argument.

Howard Beck (61:50)

Maybe I was.

Zach Lowe (61:52)

Durant was your.

Howard Beck (61:53)

Yeah. No, like at a certain point when you have a lot of really good candidates, as we do, we just named a bunch of them, you gotta draw a line somewhere. And sometimes the line is you had an incredible season, Kevin Durant, but you just barely got to 65 games and your team isn't even making the play in. And you're part of that.

Anthony Slater (62:14)

I.

Howard Beck (62:15)

And this is where like I think it's okay to kind of bring it in tangibles too. And by the way, I think it's okay to bring it in tangibles for the MVP discussion too. Like there was a great piece in the Athletic last week, I think by Sam Amic about, you know, Shaygils, Alexander's, you know, just his, his general leadership, the way he affects his teammates. Like, we can bring in that stuff, too. Like, there, there are other aspects of this. And I think in the case of a, you know, Suns team that has absolutely just completely disintegrated, and when you look at the talent, you go, well, that talent's good enough to at least be a playing team. They should at least be better than the Mavericks or the Kings. And they're not. It's because at some point, chemistry just went to. And I think it's okay then to look at it and say, well, you all bear responsibility. Kevin Durant, you're the best player on this team. You're the most decorated player on this team. Like, you bear some responsibility. Responsibility.

Zach Lowe (63:03)

Through the television, through my monitor, I can see the pouting every game. Not just by him. I can see the in the corner pouting. And I, I, I see it every game. Now. That team has been a tire fire top to bottom the entire year. The Beal thing has been a disaster. He finally made a basket. He came back. He didn't make any baskets, and he didn't make any baskets for like a full quarter and a half. You've made a basket. They can't just like, Colin Gillespie starts and he doesn't start. Their whole lineup has been a mess. The fact, I mean, they're not competitive. I was gonna say the fact that they're even competitive lately, they haven't, they haven't won in ages. Now, I. He's, he has been the best player on their team. I just, again, I, like I said, I don't know what to do and he hasn't qualified yet. I don't know who I would go with. Did any of those other names, were they persuasive to you? I said hard. And Jalen Brown, Zubots. Deserves a look. Sabonis, anyone else?

Howard Beck (63:56)

I jotted down Zubots. I had Harden in my initial list. Crossed him out. The efficiency, I think, when, when you're comparing everybody, like, you're right, like, the case for Harden is he's been as steady as can be. He has kept them afloat all season, especially, you know, while they were waiting for Kawhi to get back. That they're in this position at all, that we're talking about them as a team that could make the conference finals or who knows, beyond is a huge credit to James Harden. The guy's taken a lot of shit over the years. Some deserved, maybe some exaggerated. He's been Fantastic for them, and he's been everything they've needed. But when we're. We're having to split hairs when you're squeezing guys into the fourth and fifth spots on the third team. And I think the fact that his efficiency numbers are down so far is fair to. As an eliminating condition.

Zach Lowe (64:42)

So it's every year you get here and you're splitting hairs and then you think like, wow, imagine if these five players were actually eligible and did like Wemby Luca. Ad we go on and on like, oh, my God, I forgot Kawhi. Like, none of these players are eligible. I mean, not the dude. Expect Kawhi to be eligible.

Howard Beck (64:57)

But can you indulge me for a minute? Here's my. The ineligible list based on injuries in 65 game rule. Victor Wembanyama, Luka Doncic, Jimmy Butler, Anthony Davis, Joel Embiid, Tyrese Maxi, Paul George. I know was having a shitty season anyway.

Zach Lowe (65:08)

Joel Embiid. Let's move that one to the side.

Howard Beck (65:11)

I'm just saying if. If a full season of Joel Embiid last. Last year he was the running for MVP until he went down. I'm just saying these are all guys who in recent years have been ramping up, baby.

Zach Lowe (65:21)

Still ramping up.

Howard Beck (65:22)

A lot of ramping. Nobody makes ramps like the NBA down.

Zach Lowe (65:26)

I'd like to ramp down just in general. I just like a ramp, ramp down.

Howard Beck (65:29)

Rest. Rest of the list of guys who normally we would be discussing if not for injuries in 65 game rules. Kyrie Irving, Franz Vogner, Palo Ban, Caro Kawhi Leonard, Zion Williamson.

Zach Lowe (65:37)

Magic guy would have made it. One of the magic guys probably Bank Hero would have made it.

Howard Beck (65:42)

Zion, Brandon Ingram, John Morant, Isaiah Hartenstein.

Zach Lowe (65:45)

Stop, stop.

Howard Beck (65:46)

I'm just saying. Chad Holmgren, Damian Lillard, Norm Powell, Drew Holiday. These are like all guys who have had either had really great seasons or in the past were in these conversations. And so when I'm. When I'm looking at all NBA or all, you know, other awards, I'm also looking at the list of like, all right, who have we had recently? Okay, no, no, that guy's out. Put a line through him. Like, that is a big block of guys who either are stars or. Or were recent stars or had really good seasons but just didn't play enough games. And it's just an interesting and very kind of sobering list. Like, there's a. Like, think about in a normal year where Luke had played enough games, we'd be saying, wow, what a weird year. He's going to Be an mvp. The MVP conversation in all NBA, probably first team, but split among two teams. When has that ever happened? But he didn't play enough games. Jimmy Butler, he, his, his case would have been on, on all NBA. Would have possibly been tanked just by the fact that he tanked his way out of Miami. And, and there's, there's a, there's a price to pay for that. But look at what he's done for the Warriors. Like, there's a case for like Jimmy Butler getting honors based on how he has revived the warriors or put them back in the conversation. But again, it's irrelevant because he hasn't played enough games anyway. I'm just saying, like, there's some really interesting cases to consider. Two, two things.

Zach Lowe (67:00)

Two, two tangents based on what you just said. Number one, Jimmy Butler has reached the point where like I'm never doubting Jimmy Butler again. Whatever decisions he makes in life, I just, he's go, He's a winning player. He's always been a winning player. He gets paid no matter what he does. Like I'm just. If he, if he gave me financial advice right now, like, hey, the market's tanking. I got some advice for you. Buy stock in pumpkins or something like Homer Simpson did on in November. Obviously Homer bought the pumpkin. Stock didn't go well for Homer. I would be like, sure, I, I get it, Jimmy. Like, I trust you here. I'm putting all my money in pumpkins.

Howard Beck (67:36)

Or Big Face Coffee. Wasn't that the name of his coffee company? Yeah, Face Coffee. I'll buy stock of Big Face Coffee. I like coffee.

Zach Lowe (67:43)

My second tangent, I already forgot what it was. I mean, I'm in mid season form forgetting.

Howard Beck (67:48)

Probably just a mock one of the many names.

Zach Lowe (67:52)

I don't want to address this. I don't want to go any further than this. The most complicated, and I don't mean that in any sense other than just like the most complicated question in NBA team building right now is what in the hell are the Pelicans supposed to do? What direction is their roster even aimed in now? Are they a win now team while their best player doesn't play? Are they a rebuilding team while they're picking high in the draft again? Are they like our cheap team? No, they're. It's just. I don't like the closest thing they had to a SEM. It's not a semi dependable, borderline all NBA all star player was Brandon Ingram who actually plays and they traded him and he has a played for the raptors I mean, you and I might get. I'm surprised the Raptors didn't call me for a 10 day contract or like a fourth quarter contract. Hey, we're winning in the fourth quarter, Zach. Get in there. Set screens.

Howard Beck (68:40)

Anybody could play a fourth quarter for the Raptors. We've seen this. It doesn't matter. Anybody, Anybody.

Zach Lowe (68:45)

Let's. I, I, I'm not positing an answer. I have no idea what the answer is. I just know that I would not want to be responsible for figuring that out. Let's fly through all defense. I have no idea who I would vote for for defensive player of the year. I will make a big prediction at some point. Yeah, I did make tentative all defensive teams and this is very difficult because there are seven guys that I would consider worthy of first team all defense. Maybe eight. Don't know if you're any good at math. You can only pick five. My first seven, two of whom are going to have to be on the second team are Dyson Daniels, Jaren Jackson Jr. Evan Mobley, Draymond Green, Amen Thompson, Lugan Dort, and OG Anunoby, who by the way, OG Anobi in the last month has played at an all NBA level. That guy is on a heater like he's never been on before. I guess if I had to pick a first team, Daniels has to be on it, Jackson has to be on it, Mobley has to be on it. I think I would put Draymond Green and Ahmed Thompson as the last two spots on my first team and with apologies to the Thunder, put Dort on the second team and put Anunoby just because it's not his fault that the Knicks have the worst defense among this group. They just do. He's deserving a first team all defense. I just, I can't fit him. I don't know what you could make. I mean I'm not, this is tentative. You could easily make a case that he's first team all defense. He's been, there are sequences in every Knicks game that he plays where for like 90 seconds the whole game is just OG and Anobi doing stuff and taking like wrecking the game. Block, shot, dunk, steal, pass, dunk by somebody. I was like, oh my God, what just happened? And then they would, then it tentatively. Then Dort and OG An Adobe would be on my second team along with Jalen Williams. So the Thunder are getting two guys on my all defensive team. Evita Zubots, who I think deserves to be in conversation for first team as well. He's the, he's the other guy there. And that leaves me one spot for either Bam Adebayo or Rudy Gobert. With apologies to Tamani Kamara, Derrick White and a couple other people who just missed the cut. And I don't know who I would pick between those two, but that's what I got right now. And defense player of the year. I, I think I would lean Mobley right now just the most. Yeah, he's not the best defender in the NBA. He hasn't been the best defender in the NBA in the last month. I think Draymond has probably taken that crown for him. If not Ahmed Thompson. I think he just has the most complete season long candidacy. But I'm open, but that's just where I am. I have no idea who I'd vote for.

Howard Beck (71:27)

There's. There's been an in. I feel like in the last decade or so, I think there's most. There's been kind of this general framework of defensive player of the year where it's kind of been like a big. Who's an anchor on a top five, top ten defense. Right. That's the Rudy Gobert model and the Draymond Green model in the past. And on that basis, like Evan Mobley, the Cavs are ninth in defensive rating. So not, not dominant, but very, very good. They've been 15th since the All Star break. And we talked about this earlier. The Cavs have kind of. But again, like it's sometimes hard to put too much weight on the last month of a season or last few weeks of a season where you've got everything locked up and there's not as much to play for. You don't have to come out with the same intensity. But Draymond Green fits that, that, those parameters too. For defensive player of the year, the warriors are seventh in defensive rating, third since the All Star break.

Zach Lowe (72:13)

Unexectable. Dream hungry. And by the way, it's not, it's not his fault. It's not his fault. Not. This part is not his fault. And this helps his case as a defensive player. I do think because of his reputation, whatever, he gets more leeway physically than almost anybody else in the league. Like he could play ultra, ultra physical defense and get away with it.

Howard Beck (72:36)

Okay. The flip side of that is I don't know how people are going to react to this one. I have not heard any discussion of this. I think he's probably one of the only guys who gets called for the flagrant for that elbow like that. That, that was a normal mo. Like driving, shooting, layup motion. Like what?

Zach Lowe (72:52)

Let's, let's, let's be honest. He got called for that flagrant because he hadn't shut the hell up in like 20 straight minutes. And he's barking at it. That's why he got called for it. Because I agree with you, it was.

Howard Beck (73:00)

Because he'd been beating the crap out of Shangun and every other way the whole game. And so at that point, you've lost the benefit of the doubt. But like, I don't know how many other players are getting called for a flagrant for driving to the hoop against a defender who is, who has jumped into you as well. So I don't know. That was. That one was weird. I don't want to be the Draymond Green apologist.

Zach Lowe (73:19)

Go, go. Give me the, Give me your defense.

Howard Beck (73:21)

All right, so the all defensive team, Draymond, Mobley, Dort are all first team for sure. I think Amend Thompson is first team for sure. I had penciled in Ibika Zubac. The Clippers are number two in defensive rating. And again, going back to the defensive player of the year framework where it's, it's, you know, if you are the, the primary reason, overwhelming reason for your team being a dominant defensive team, I'm going to give that a lot of weight. So at the moment, Zubac's fifth, but that bumps guys who, who, you know.

Zach Lowe (73:53)

You discuss who gets bumped. Your second team. Dyson Daniels, for one.

Howard Beck (73:56)

Dyson Daniels gets bumped to second team there. And Dyson Daniels. Daniels has been like, just freaking awesome.

Zach Lowe (74:01)

And Jaren Jackson, did he get bumped?

Howard Beck (74:02)

The second Jaren Jackson Jr. Also on the second team. Other guys. So those are the only. So that's the seven that I was sure of. Everything after that, I'm, I'm like still kind of noodling around. Gobert and Anunobi are guys who I have kind of rotated in and out of those spots. Somebody was mentioning me the other day because I'd forgotten about him. Back to the Clippers, Chris Dunn.

Zach Lowe (74:26)

I don't think he qualifies because of the 20 minute a game rule. I think he's ineligible again.

Howard Beck (74:30)

This 65 game thing with all these freaking subclauses just drives me absolutely bad.

Zach Lowe (74:35)

For six man of the year. Not that he would get my vote, but just as a bookkeeping note.

Howard Beck (74:41)

Kicked around Derek White, kicked around Nikhil Alexander Walker.

Anthony Slater (74:46)

Ooh.

Howard Beck (74:51)

Bam. Obviously you have to consider every time.

Zach Lowe (74:53)

And then Bam's gonna get punished because the Heat have had a bad season.

Howard Beck (74:57)

Y.

Zach Lowe (74:58)

They're 10th or 11th in defense and he just remains a stalwart. Yeah, that enables him to play a lot of different ways and, and deserves credit too for playing with KHIL Ware, who k we rather who deserves I think to be first team all rookie. But that's a different, that's a different story.

Howard Beck (75:13)

Yeah, heat 10th as of this morning in defensive rating. So yeah, the Heat have, have fallen apart. Although, you know, a little late season resurgence. But yeah, they're not, they're not great but defensively they're, they're still as, as stout as ever. And, and Bam. I don't think Bam has lost anything, do you? I mean it's been a.

Zach Lowe (75:29)

The protection numbers are not great. I think teams are shooting like 71 with him against him at the basket. But he, that's never been his case. I mean he can get up there for a member of the block on Tatum, which is iconic in the bubble, but that's not his strength. Strength. But if there's, if you're, if you're forced to sort of pick a weak spot in his case, that's what it is. But I agree with you. Bam has been, despite carrying a bigger offensive load and he's done better on that lately than he did at the early part of the season. I think he's been pretty damn like Bam out of bio on defense.

Howard Beck (76:02)

And the other, the other one that I'm, I'm struggling with a little bit here is like Rudy Gobert's raw numbers are down, right? The block shots and the rebounds are just down. But the Timberwolves are still, they're sixth as of this morning in defensive rating and they've got some great wing defenders, you know, Jada McDaniels and the aforementioned Nikhil Alexander Walker. Like they've got, you know, Anthony Edwards himself. Like they've got good defenders but like their tops, the Timberwolves are top six defense because of Gobert and still everything that he, you know, deters, dissuades Mr. X. And so the raw numbers don't look as dominant as they did in his defensive player of the year seasons.

Zach Lowe (76:43)

But he's, he's surging too toward the end of the season.

Howard Beck (76:47)

So yeah, as are the Wolves. So I feel like, I feel like I'm probably going to get him back on there.

Zach Lowe (76:54)

If I had to choose between him and Bam right now, I think I would probably just reward Gobert based on team success. But I don't, I don't feel great about not having Bam on either of my all defense teams. All right. Those are the only awards. I'll do the other awards later this week, probably with another guest on Thursday. Howard Beck, any parting thoughts being the first guest on this silly show?

Howard Beck (77:19)

No. No other party thoughts. Just this has been an honor and again, you don't want to hear it.

Zach Lowe (77:24)

But it is awesome. Would you say it's the greatest honor of your life? Would you go that far? Where does it rank? 3, where does it rank vis a vis your marriage and the birth of your daughter? Better. Above those.

Howard Beck (77:37)

My, for the longest time, my top three, like, life moments were, yes, marriage, birth of my daughter, and the moment that I got the job at the New York Times was just like this, like this career altering, life changing, like, just this, this thrill. I can still remember walking across Times Square where like the TKTS booth is and the little police booth, whatever, calling my wife New York back to la, saying, I got it. We're moving to New York. And here we are 21 years later, still here. In terms of other, other goofy career honors, though, you and I being animated in game of zones, still all timer. Yeah, I got to, and I even got to do my own line in one of those episodes. So I might, I might have to, I might have to revive that, that screenshot.

Zach Lowe (78:24)

You might be a SAG member now. You might be able to vote in the SAG awards. All right, Howard Beck, what do we got? What do we got? Coming up on the ringer from you. I know you're going to be on Real Ones as usual. What do we, I've got to get in the habit of promoting, promoting ringer stuff now.

Howard Beck (78:38)

My, my, my Real Ones turn has shifted because I'll be popping on with you now and then. So Fridays now on the Real ones instead of Tuesdays on the real ones. Two pieces I'm, I'm cranking on for the ringer.com that I don't want to spoil just yet, but a couple things coming, at least one of them before the playoffs, one of them probably around time of the play in. But yeah, dude, again, just, I'm so excited to have you here and, and working with you. We've never been teammates all this time. We have done a thousand podcasts. Your podcast, my podcast, Drunk with Power podcasts, all kinds of stuff. We're actually teammates. This is awesome. I love it. Thank you for being here.

Zach Lowe (79:19)

Fun times. Howard Beck, everybody. Thank you, sir.

Howard Beck (79:22)

Thank you.

Zach Lowe (79:24)

It's the final stretch of the NBA season and the playoff picture is changing by the minute. And every Tuesday for the remainder of the season. The ringer and Bill Simmons heard of him are giving FanDuel customers a profit boost token on player performance double bets. If you don't know about them, you got to check them out. They are twole parlays already made for you. FanDuel takes an NBA player prop then combines with a bet on that player's team to win. FanDuel has a bunch of them for every game. You just have to pick the one you like. Whether you want to ride with one of our picks or make your own, make sure you claim the token and place a player performance double bet on Tuesday. Just head to fanduel.com low L O W E to get your profit boost. Make every moment more with FanDuel America's number one sportsbook must be 21 or over in President select states or 18 and over in President D.C. opt in required bonus issued is non withdrawable profit boost tokens restrictions apply including any token expiration and max wager amount. See terms@sportsbook.fanduel.com gambling problem. Call 1-800-gambler and visit rg d help.com all right, I was deciding what I wanted to tack on is guest number two and I wanted to talk about a team specific team. I was like what team should I really talk about? And I just don't know that any team has had a more interesting calendar year than the Golden State Warriors. The ups, the downs, the developments, the trades. Anthony Slater from the Athletic covers them like no other. How are you sir?

Anthony Slater (80:43)

I'm fantastic. I started this season which as you mentioned, feels about eight seasons going Hawaii and training camp and it has been a long, winding, strange journey to this point. But I'm good. You?

Zach Lowe (80:54)

I'm very good. Welcome to the Zach Lowe show. Warriors 46 and 32. Hot start. Started drowning, Traded for Jimmy Butler, clarified the roster and now they are 46 and 32. 213 I believe, with both Butler and Curry in the lineup. Coming off a loss last night to the Rockets, which we can talk about, but it's just been a crazy year of ups and downs and I think remarkably they saved their season. They saved, I don't want to say saved the end of Steph Curry's career, but they have built themselves a team that I think they can look at and say this is real. Like to me, this is real what they've done. I'm not saying that they're the best team in the west, the favorites in the west, that they can win more than one playoff round necessarily. But I remember I tweeted when the Butler trade happened. Really like the Butler trade. If something like I like the Butler trade fine for both teams. I think he'll fit with the warriors despite the shooting concerns because of the. Just the iq, the cutting, the defense, all that stuff. I, I said I think he could fit with both Kaminga and Green, which we'll talk about whether that's actually true. And I think I said something like maybe not quite a true title contender, but you know, why not just sort of try to out veteran the Rockets in the first round and then you can win a. Maybe I sold them short. Like I, I don't know how quite how good this team is, but this feels very real to me. Does it feel real to you watching it up close? And more importantly, it seems to feel pretty damn real to them.

Anthony Slater (82:23)

Yeah, for sure. I like. I think you framed it well. They're more threatening than probably I think either of us would have predicted. But we knew they were going to be like even the day they made the trade, it was. They didn't give up that many future bullets, but even like current bullets. Right. I mean you were basically essentially just flipping Andrew Wiggins for Jimmy Butler, which you know, beyond the theatrics of Miami. I think anybody who's watched both play know how much of an upgrade that is. I think that the way he put everybody else into their proper roles and to be honest, like Pajemski just started playing better at that point. He was kind of already. The momentum was already pushing him forward prior to.

Zach Lowe (83:03)

He's the subplot of all this is like the guy is leveled up from where he was last year and completely left behind whatever the hell was going on with him the first two months of the season.

Anthony Slater (83:13)

Yeah, well, I mean, that's the thing. He was spiraling in the first two months of the season for various reasons. And I wouldn't like blame Andrew Wiggins or like Jimmy Butler not being there for that. It was just his own personal circumstance that he had already turned around by the time Jimmy Butler got there. You mentioned the warriors believing that they are more of a threat. I think we maybe underrated the just mental wear and tear on Draymond and Steph by the middle of the season when they just knew. You know, I remember a Celtics game. It was the MLK Day game where they came out. Porzingis and Horford are hitting threes. The Celtics were just really hot. And when they checked out of the game, Step probably checked out with nine minutes to go and he just like wandered around the court for one minute in this, like, kind of, you know, almost like depressed spiral of like, like, why would I even believe there's enough talent? And I remember Steve Kerr said he had a conversation with Steph that day about, like, look, you know, we have you, who was awesome in the gold medal game on the court. They have, you know, three of our gold medalists over there on that team. Like, it's not necessarily a fair fight. And I think at, by that point of the season, by the trade deadline, it was just obvious to Draymond Estef, like, they weren't going into these higher level battles with, you know, a fair fight. And I just think they believe they have that now that's invigorated Draymond defensively. We've seen he's, you know, running his own personal defensive player of the year campaign right now and that Steph is just gone nuclear since Jimmy's arrival. And I think a lot of that is just like, you know, they just, they just believe that they can maybe, you know, as you said, you know, take down a Rocket, say a Lakers and Nuggets in the first round. So I'm not going to pick them to win the title, but I'm, I'm picking them maybe to win a series, which I wouldn't have done two months ago.

Zach Lowe (84:51)

I mean, winning three series is a tall order for anybody in the west, period. No one other than the Thunder is a smart bet to be able to do that. And they had a rough weekend themselves. But the warriors could do it. I mean, it's, it's in play for them to win three playoff series. Now, the fourth one would be the finals. Let's, let's just leave that aside. Their ceiling has been that high as a two way team. They're plus 10 per 100 possessions since the Butler trade, and that includes the losses that one or both of them didn't play in. Butler and Curry, their starting five is plus 10 per 100 possessions, plus 45 and 164 minutes. And it just work. It's small. It's small. And that got exposed a little bit last night against the Rockets, who are just ginormous and very, very mean, very nasty. But it's, it's a lineup that makes sense with Pajemski playing like this. I know Moody is not everyone's cup of tea, even within the Warriors. Like there's, he's a little bit of a polarizing player. I think he's fit great in that starting lineup and they, they bring quality guys off the Bench like this. This feels pretty real to me. But what was that scene like last night, by the way? A lot of crazy stuff happened in that game last night. IME Odoka and Steph yapping at each other. Draymond just going full draymond for like, 20 straight minutes and not getting ejected. What was the. I don't know if you or Sam Amick, because it's a coal byline story, conducted the interview with IME Udoka when he used the word crying twice to describe what. What the warriors were doing at halftime about the Rockets physicality. Was that your interview or Sam's?

Anthony Slater (86:22)

That was. Was on the Houston side last night. But it. Yeah, I mean, it was. It was a scene. I mean, it was. It reminded me a little of, like, remember IME going after Draymond during that Celtics warriors finals on the sideline a little bit.

Zach Lowe (86:36)

Yeah. And he's gone after LeBron, too.

Anthony Slater (86:37)

Yeah, yeah. And I remember at the time, that was ima. You know, even, you know, letting the Celtics know. We, like, he's. He's trying a tactic. He's trying a Draymond Green tactic right now, which clearly he thought Draymond was trying last night. And I would agree with him. Right. I mean, Draymond mentioned it post game. Like, he's given up. You know, I think he says 6 inches and 50 pounds of Sengu, and that might be a little bit exaggeration, but not really. I mean, like, we. We know you've stood next to Draymond plenty of times. Like, that is not. It's not even really an NBA power forward size. I mean, he would be considered a small power forward. So he felt the. The Warriors, I think, physically getting beat around, and he just decided he wanted to charge up the arena. We've seen him do that plenty of times. He always edges it close to, you know, as you said, an ejection. They were really upset with the flagrant foul. I don't know what you thought of that last night.

Zach Lowe (87:21)

That was. I would have just. I almost wondered if it should have just been a no call. I could. I didn't know what to make of it because it did not look like a wildly unnatural layup motion. It also hit Sengun right in the nose.

Anthony Slater (87:35)

And they'd been in the. You know, it's like the Draymond tax. You were just kind of, you know, doing your dust up over here with Sengu, and so the refs almost have to look at it with a closer eye. But. Yeah, anyway. Yeah, I mean, but the. You mentioned it the thing that I've never, I'm not sure I've ever seen an opposing coach like talk to Steph Curry like during a game beyond just like, man, you're tough to guard or something like that. It was like basically stop complaining. And you know, the warriors are, have been on a crusade lately that Steph just, I think they see the playoffs coming. They see the physicality, the overzealous defenses and, and they're trying to almost get the word out like, you know, he needs to be like, he needs some of these off ball calls when he's getting grappled. Butler last night kind of went pretty forceful about it and, but that was IME saying like no, like stop whining and on the way off the court and Steph kind of, you know, zing back at him. So it was, it felt playoff level. And I would say the crowds in Chase, like I mentioned the team being kind of deflated by the situation and like the crowds in Chase were really bad. In San Francisco, the middle part of the season, they've been a lot Char. You can tell they're feeling a playoff run coming in. That, that, that felt like a really, you know, good first round type environment last night.

Zach Lowe (88:42)

Look, they could be anywhere from four to eight. We don't know. We have no idea who their opponent's going to be. You start saying the word eight, it gets scary. Like, wait, we could still be eighth. I mean their, their schedule is fairly forgiving the rest of the way. At Phoenix, home, San Antonio, at Portland and against the Clippers. Their tiebreaker situation is decent. They've, they've won some, they've lost others. You know, they, they. Let's see where the, the playoff odds have them. I mean, again, it's all over the place, literally. I mean this is about as, as, as. Even as it gets across the board on playoff status.com 19% chance of the 4th seed 18% 5th 17% 6th 21% 7, 18% 8. Like good, good luck.

Anthony Slater (89:27)

I mean they face the Clippers on the final Sunday at 2:30pm and like there's a, you know, that seems like it's heading towards, you know, a very significant, you know, result.

Zach Lowe (89:37)

I mean on, on the one hand, yeah, you want to avoid the play in. On the other hand, yeah, it's only one game. It's only one game. The seven and eight teams should just like both of those teams should make the playoffs. Like Dallas, Sacramento, the remnants of the Suns. These teams should be able to beat those teams at home in one Game, but you just, you never know.

Anthony Slater (89:57)

You don't. And then the other thing is, if you lose the 7 8, you're guaranteeing yourself the Thunder even if you win that game. And not only the thunder, you're 48 hours after saving your season on a Friday night, you're walking into Oklahoma City for game one, which is, I mean, I saw it last year, I covered the Pelicans Kings, you know, final playing game, and it was like they had to fly to Oklahoma City City and just get, you know, bombarded in game one.

Zach Lowe (90:18)

Yeah, I wouldn't, I wouldn't want. The most known commodity is that quibble with the Thunders last two games or whatever. Like they're alleged inexperienced. They're just an awesome team with home court advantage and a defense that will not stop and you're going to have to struggle to score against them for all the games. I would like to avoid, avoid them.

Anthony Slater (90:36)

But yeah, I would say the one other thing, and maybe I hear this more because I cover a very veteran like, old team that needs to rest, but like they're obsessed with the week off, right? That's become, I think, a big thing in the league. You play that final Sunday and if you get in the playoffs, you don't play again till, you know, game one, Saturday, Sunday, you rest your legs, you practice and you prep, right? You scout, you, you come up with a game plan. If you play all the way to that Friday night, even if you save your season, like, you just, you have no prep time for your matchup and you're very tired because you probably just played 42 minutes basically to save your season. The warriors, considering how old they are, do not want that.

Zach Lowe (91:09)

What are the biggest questions about the team? Like what are the unknowns that when you watch the game, you're like, I want to see how this combination works or this lineup works or who does Steve trust to close this game? Are they big enough? Are they, can they rebound well enough? Like, what are the, what are the questions?

Anthony Slater (91:22)

Yeah, I mean, to me it's like two of them. Like, man, you saw it last night. Can they score, you know, inside enough? And I would include Jimmy Butler in that. He's kind of been added on to this, you know, team of guys who at times are afraid to finish in traffic, right? They're smaller, they're just, they're not, you know, if this, if teams, big teams can see, scheme it up where it comes down to either like open threes for questionable three point shooters or like Draymond floaters, Jimmy Butler you know, passing up layups in traffic like, you know, maybe they'll score like they did last night, 96 points and just not be able to just offensively compete in the playoffs. That would be one concern. The other one, just, just Jonathan Kamiga's role and Jonathan Kaminga's future and just everything. Jonathan Kaminga has been a four year storyline and I just, he, I've said it and you know, I think some people would have this opinion, some people don't. But I just believe like maximizing him make, getting it to the point that he can close on most nights, that he can play 28 minutes, I think that raises this team's ceiling because he's just the athlete they don't have. He's the everything I just said they don't have. Right? Finishing power.

Zach Lowe (92:24)

He's that.

Anthony Slater (92:25)

Yes. And I understand, we both certainly understand that it comes with fit issues, right? You know, if it's him, Draymond and Jimmy Butler on the floor, that's three players that the Lakers, for example, LeBron James and JJ Redick are going to be sitting there going sag off, sit in the paint, let them shoot threes. If they bomb threes over the top of us, you know, clap for them.

Zach Lowe (92:43)

You know, what helps you cope with that is the Warriors. A, Steph Curry, the greatest roving shooter ever in an offensive force stylistically like no one else, and B, the collective passing cutting, screening handoff IQ of Draymond and Butler, two of the non shooters. Although Butler has a habit of just suddenly getting scorching hot from three in the playoffs. And even Kaminga, I feel like the Warrior standards for like a, like a, a heady our system kind of player are so high that he's like, he's not as far from that as I think he's made out to be. There was a play last night in the first half, I think were in the right corner. He caught the ball, had an open 3, saw Steph cutting across the baseline toward him. It was like, you know what? I'm not going to take this open three. I'm going to set a pin in hand off to Steph. Steph went behind him in the corner. Two guys went to Steph, he slipped to the rim and dunked. And like he makes plays like that. That's a Warriors play. I, I understand he's not Draymond Green, who's an all time genius. He's not Steph Curry, who's an all time genius. He's not Jimmy Butler, who does every little thing right at all moments of the game. But he's not like Stromile Swift, like an empty calories athlete or something like.

Anthony Slater (93:55)

That or you know, obviously the, the. I would say the two examples in, you know, recent warriors history are Kelly Oubre and how bad of a fit that was and James Wiseman, you know, and like. No, he's not that. I agree. And I think at times Steve treats him like he's still second year Jonathan coming. I think he's polished his game in a lot of ways. Yes, he, he views himself as a future 20 plus point per game scorer that kind of gets to his mid range and you put the ball in his hands. It's a lot of, you know, usage and I think, you know, theoretically when he's 24, 25 on a, you know, if it's a rebuilding warriors team or a different situation, maybe that's what he wants. But you know, he has to somewhat accept his role. But I do think he needs to just be given a longer Runway here. He had a really, really bad ankle injury, you know, forced him to miss 31 games. You could still see it. He still, last night somebody kind of hit it and he's kind of, you know, limping around on it for a couple minutes. I don't think it's fully right, but I just, I just believe with Kaminga want like last night he threw a bad turnover, like a pick six in the second.

Zach Lowe (94:53)

That's brutal. Left one handed.

Anthony Slater (94:54)

Yes.

Zach Lowe (94:54)

And you could see, you could, you knew timeout and you knew he's not going to be in the game when the game starts up again.

Anthony Slater (94:59)

And I just, I understand the equity that Steve, you know, Steph has built and Draymond's built and Jimmy Butler just, you know, through his career, not necessarily with the warriors has built, but if Steph throws that past Steve's like, oh, you know, come on Steph. But like with Kaminga, you know, like.

Zach Lowe (95:12)

Oh, oh, that might be Santos.

Anthony Slater (95:13)

Yeah, that might be it for the night for K. Kaminga. And it's like, okay, like, you know, I get it, you know, tough love. And maybe Kaminga wasn't mentally there for that pocket of the second quarter, but he also had like nine and four at that point. I thought he was rebounding well. He plays the Rockets really well. It's just if you like, I just believe, and I said it earlier and I would love your take on it. I just believe like against the high level talent, they need to get him going, like, get him in these lineup combinations. Seymour. And, and if you're just going to yank him for G. Santos because he makes a second quarter mistake. Like to me you're, you're hurting your, you know, second round ceiling.

Zach Lowe (95:48)

So if people, I assume lots of people watched Warriors Lakers last week on, what was that Thursday? I think that was like the perfect Kaminga game. He played, I think he had 18 points. He made mostly very good decisions, played within himself, attacked the right matchups at the right times, defended pretty hard. I do think if there's something to be more disappointed about than anything else that we haven't talked about is he has not been as steady a defender, particularly on the perimeter, as he should be and if he were more reliable there, I think maybe the team would trust him a little bit more. But that was like a perfect Kaminga game and they closed that game with the lineup you've written about and it was immediately the most interesting lineup on their team to me of Steph Pajemski, Butler, Green, Kaminga, you thought that might be their closing five when the, when the trade happened. That lineup is only played. I think, I don't, it's, it's like less than 30 minutes. I just know Kaminga, Green, Butler by itself is 35 minutes and only minus 17. That group I think has played 13 minutes. That five man group which is less than I would have expected and we saw it a little bit against Houston, but we saw the Gary Payton version of that lineup against Houston last night where with Peyton in the Kamingo spot and I understand like that's a, it's not like the only non shooting combination they have is Kaminga, Green and Butler that you, you'll see. Peyton, Kaminga, Looney, you'll see. You know, I just mentioned that the Peyton, Green, Butler, it's a problem with all of those lineups and you just make it work. But I agree with you. Like if they're really going to hit, like if we're talking about a conference finals with the warriors six weeks from now, eight weeks from whatever it is, it's going to be because Kaminga has found a way to contribute in those core groups and they've maximized him. And I, I still think, I mean look, I, I still think that's, I'm, I've been a long time cockeyed Kaminga optimist. Like I'm the wrong guy to ask but I just see the stuff you can do. I'm like they gotta find a way to squeeze whatever they can out of him.

Anthony Slater (97:44)

You know what else? If it doesn't work, if the, the fit is off if he's unwilling, you know, win given trust. And I would say one of the things with him and you. Can you pin this on immaturity, whatever. He's always plays harder defensively, rebounds better when he feels a level of belief behind him. But if he is to, you know, if this is to not work and they go down in the playoffs and he's making mistakes and, and then you just have answers about his future, which by the way, needs to be decided in the summer. You know, he has restricted free agency coming up. It's one of the most restrict, interesting, restrictive free agencies in the league. You need to decide if he is a, you know, high price part of your future or if you need to rearrange your roster. And I think one of the only ways you find that out is like, give it the chance, you know, in these playoffs.

Zach Lowe (98:29)

And they hung on to him obviously in trade talks this season. The Butler trade ended up being what it was, but which I think, you know, they've prioritized their. They've tried to thread the needle as best as possible between helping this year's team and not handicapping their future so much. And they've done that. Yeah, that's the biggest question to me. You know, you mentioned like scoring inside. There was, there was a play last night halfway through the fourth quarter about where Amen Thompson was just smothering Steph off the ball, face guarding him off the ball. To your point, about their shaky finishing. Who's on. He was on the right wing and Gary Payton II came to set like a, like a pin down or a back screen, I can't remember which. Some sort of split action with Steph. And you could see Amen Thompson register. Gary Payton was coming up behind him to like hit him and be like, it's cool. Like, I'm not moving. Like, my job is to just be on this guy. We're not falling for any of this stuff. If you back cut, if you get Gary, if you. Gary Payton gets some momentum going to the rim, that's cool. Like, we'll figure that out. And Gary Payton, sure enough got a little bit of a clearance on a back cut and went into a two on one with Kavon Looney against Stephen Adams. And the, the Rockets were like, we kind of have faith in our ability to defend a Gary Payton ii. Kavon Looney, like, floater, range shot. We're cool. And sure enough, Looney missed a floater and Steph never got the ball. And it's like, that's the kind of stuff you're talking about. Masterpiece game by Ahmed Thompson, by the way.

Anthony Slater (99:52)

Yeah, he was unbelievable. I. I wonder, like, you know, I had somebody last night say, like, oh, he could be, you know, top five, top ten type player. And I, I think he's heading there defensively. I think we all know that. What's your. His offensive ceiling? What's. Where are you at on that?

Zach Lowe (100:06)

It's going to be hard to get to that level. I mean, that level you just said is very hallowed territory, obviously, without a jump shot, but he, he has moments where he gets into the midway. Did he freeze Draymond on that crossover last. He throws somebody on that, like, right to left crossover into a midi. I, I mean, he's already first team, all defense for me right now. And his passing, cutting, rebounding is way ahead of the aging curve. If the shot becomes workable from 18ft in. Look, I'm, I don't even. I'd have to reconsider the ceiling. I, I love that kid. And Asar is coming, too, in Detroit, he's just a little behind because of the blood clot issue. But back to the, Back to the words. I just want. I want. You can see it. I mean, last night, look, Curry did. Curry got taken out of the game. They lost the game, got away from them. Just sort of like the story was not the game at the end. It was all the fighting and trash talking. They had 15 straight going into that game, including a bunch against good teams, 21 and three with Butler and Curry. Curry's last three games before that were just outrageous games, to the point that I think he's put himself in first team all NBA conversation.

Anthony Slater (101:21)

Him or Donovan Mitchell. Right. Probably.

Zach Lowe (101:23)

And I think ant could be in there, but, like, you can see how stoked they are. I mean, I hung out with them a little bit when they were in New York, like three, four weeks ago. You can you. They feel like so energized by the Butler thing and the fact that they're winning, that really matters. Like, they're, They're. You see how. How intense Curry is on the bench, cheering on his teammates, like they feel something is happening here.

Anthony Slater (101:52)

Yeah. You know, Draymond will say he. He's been around title teams and this, you know, feels like that to him. We'll see. But it's also like the. They're getting the best version of Jimmy Butler. And I think this is, you know, this needs to be a credit to Mike Dunleavy's calculation and relationships on both sides of this where there was a lot of fear from the warrior side of people who didn't do not know or you know, prior to the trade did not know Jimmy Butler and Mike Dunleavy just telling them like, no, look, we get him here, give him the max extension, he'll come here and engage. Motivated, respected Jimmy Butler feeling like he's being respected financially and believed in and you know, we can get it in all the. Or we probably don't need to get into all the dynamics that, you know, deteriorated the Miami situation. But I think Dunleavy knew that version of Jimmy Butler was going to lift everybody's spirit on court ability and like that's what saved the season. I mean Steve Kerr's been pretty open about that. Like in a lot of ways Mike Dunleavy kind of saved their season.

Zach Lowe (102:52)

The matchups are going to be very interesting, but if I'm the Warriors that I can just get out of the play in and definitely get out of eighth, maybe get to fourth, who knows? I feel like I can compete with anybody in a playoff series.

Anthony Slater (103:06)

Yeah, west is so interesting though because it's like I think going into last night you're like, man, if you get like kind of, you don't want the 7 8, but if you somehow got the Rockets and then you leave last night you're like, I'm not sure you want that match matchup.

Zach Lowe (103:17)

I wouldn't, I, I wouldn't want any of these teams. Like they're, they're all but like the cl. The one that the Warriors. I think there was some, like if we could just avoid Jokic in the first round, that would be great. Like they have so much respect for Jokic. Jokic is the best player in the NBA. The way Denver is just all over the place right now, defensively, health wise, all of it, you know, that's. I don't think that quite has the same fear factor.

Anthony Slater (103:43)

I'll tell you the one. And it's, man, it's. It's crazy to say, but they felt really good going into that Thursday night Lakers game. That was the 14th day of a 14 day road trip. A time you would expect them to kind of be, you know, woozy heading into that game. And just talking to people even prior to the game was like they were looking at the chessboard, they were looking at their schemes and you know how they were going to attack the Lakers and certainly they targeted Luca at times and you know, they're switching defense and that's. You mentioned it, that was a Kaminga game. I think they don't hate that matchup. And obviously, you know, you make the LUCA for AD trade 100 times out of 100. But in the particular warriors matchup, with Anthony Davis no longer looming in the paint, bothering all the Warrior shots, they just felt a lot freer to attack offensively in that Lakers matchup. And you know, with not a great group of targets to say, I want that matchup, I want that matchup. I'm not sure they wouldn't, you know, I think they wouldn't mind the Lakers, you know, in a three, six type matchup.

Zach Lowe (104:38)

Okay, I have two thoughts. Number one, I talked about this with Howard Beck before that Luca felt a little bit lost offensively in that game in a way that surprised me. And I think the warriors switching and lack of a like a slow footed center for him to attack was part of it. And, and the game plan against the warriors is always Hunt, step on Steph. And that's kind of like LeBron's job. And even like Austin Reeves did a lot of it. I think that's good for the warriors if Luca can get lost a little bit in, in the offensive attack. On the other hand, we have a lot of years of experience that Hunt, that wanting Luka Doncic in a playoff matchup is a bad, bad thing to want. You should not want it. You should want to avoid it. By the way, you mentioned something, gold medals and stuff. I have a quip. You mentioned the Olympics. I have a quibble and I think I'm gonna. I don't know if I can blame Steve Kerr, but I'm blaming him for it. This is, I, I haven't had a podcast in a long time. I got a lot of takes to get up.

Anthony Slater (105:28)

You got a Summer Olympics take? Are you quarter gold?

Zach Lowe (105:31)

Courting gold take? Did you watch Courting Gold?

Anthony Slater (105:33)

Yeah, yeah, I did.

Zach Lowe (105:35)

Great time, right?

Anthony Slater (105:36)

Yeah, it was, it was really good. It was informative. I thought some of the locker room scenes from the, you know, Serbia and Canada and France, like that, that stuff was interesting. Batum yelling at his team.

Zach Lowe (105:47)

Batum is one of the stars.

Anthony Slater (105:48)

Yeah.

Zach Lowe (105:49)

We have locker room footage of Yogic the likes of which you will never get again. It's absolutely incredible. You know what locker room footage we don't have? Anthony Slater.

Anthony Slater (105:59)

I'm very aware because Steve Kerr is like adamant to this day, like, you're not allowed in my locker room. Which is funny because he's, he's one of the most press friendly coaches in the league, as you know. But no, he, he's, you should you know, hit him up about it because he's like, proud that you have.

Zach Lowe (106:13)

Yeah, I have. Halftime of the semifinals, we're getting smoked by Serbia. They go into Serbia's locker room. Jokic is on the whiteboard doing stuff. The coach kick, eventually kicks the cameraman out of the locker room. And then you just like, third quarter starts. I'm like, wait a second. The one thing I want to see is Team USA at their most crisis moment. At the, at the moment of greatest urgency. The game pauses. Everything's on the line. They got 20 minutes left, and I don't see it. I just, I'm mad. Steve Kerr has to answer for this. Eric Spolster has to answer for this. Sean Ford at USA Basketball has to answer for this. They all have to answer for this. Anthony Slater.

Anthony Slater (106:53)

We should have at least gotten what you were mentioning. Like a Steve Kirk kicking the cameras out like he's so upset. Hey, you're not allowed in here. Like, we didn't even get that right.

Zach Lowe (107:01)

We didn't get that. All right. Anthony Slater does just a bang up job covering the Warriors. And more than the warriors, all things NBA for the athletic. It's great to see you. Thanks for lending me some time. And buckle up, buckle up for the end of the season for the West.

Anthony Slater (107:16)

No Kings questions. They're still alive. They're still alive.

Zach Lowe (107:20)

They are. They're ninth. They're ninth with a bullet there.

Anthony Slater (107:23)

I know.

Zach Lowe (107:23)

Only, only eight games out of eighth. Is there. Do you have enough time to make that up?

Howard Beck (107:27)

Tough.

Zach Lowe (107:27)

It's going great for the Kings.

Anthony Slater (107:28)

I would love to cover a 910 playing game in Sacramento.

Zach Lowe (107:33)

It's been a rough season for the kings. 838. 40 is not so bad. All right, Anthony Slater. Thank you, sir.

Anthony Slater (107:37)

All right. Thanks for having me.

Zach Lowe (107:40)

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