← The Zach Lowe Show
The Zach Lowe Show
Latest Details on the Kawhi-Clippers Saga With Howard Beck, Picking Team USA With Bill Simmons, Mopey Mets Corner, and Much More
01:37:40
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After this on a loaded Zach Lowe show, we're going to go in a lot of different directions, but we have to start with Pablo Torre, who just keeps on finding out. Dropped a new podcast this morning with fresh details connecting the Clippers and Steve Ballmer's college roommate to the shady company aspiration that paid Kawhi Leonard a lot of money to do a lot of nothing in 2022. And it's unclear how much money he actually got because he's still kind of a creditor of this fraudulent company, but, you know, board of governors. But yesterday, Adam Silver talked about the importance of this investigation, how he's going to approach it. We'll discuss that. Adam Silver's remarks, some of which struck me as a little bit surprising, frankly, and how the whole thing, I think, changes because of what Pablo dropped today, including my prediction for how this is going to unfold. The Then we're going to shift gears. Some guy named Bill Simmons is going to come on. Eurobasket is happening, and it's got me thinking about the 2028 Olympics how it's going to be a little harder for Team usa. How some of our old holdovers who carried US even in 2024 in Paris might not be there. We're going to pick our ideal Team USA roster for 2028. Bill's a big international basketball guy. It'll be fun. And then Mets Corner. It's not going to be. It's not going to be pleasant. Mets corner. But we gotta do it. That's part of being a sports fan. The pain, the agony, all of that. And that's Big Waz's, by the way, debut on Mets Corner. All of that coming up after this on the Zach Lowe Show. This episode of the Zach Lowe show is presented by HubSpot. Using only 20% of your business data is like going from a starting five to a starting one. Good luck with that. But that's how most businesses operate today, using only 20% of their data. Unless you have HubSpot, where all the data hidden in emails, call logs and chat messages turns into insights to grow your business. Because having all the data makes all the difference. Learn more@HubSpot.com welcome to the Zach Lowe show, where it's time to say the three most anticipated words in niche basketball podcasting. Pablo Torre felt. Wait, that's too many words. Pablo Torre found out something new. Wait a second. It's what up, Beck? How are you, sir? What up?
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C
There's too much up. There's a lot of things up. We have way too many up things to talk about. Pablo, Adam Silver, Uncle Dennis. So much, so much going on.
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A
So Pablo Torre dropped another episode of his podcast today where he uncovered new information linking Steve Ballmer's college roommate and apparently minority investor, 1% owner of the Clippers, an investment vehicle. The Dennis Wong, that's his name, controls to aspiration, the sham tree planting or whatever it was supposed to be company that paid Kawhi Leonard or agreed to pay Kawhi Leonard a preposterous amount of money to do nothing. We will get into the details of Pablo's new episode. You had a chance to listen to it, correct?
- [04:30]
C
Yes.
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A
Okay, so this is now my third episode on this. On this burgeoning scandal. Because it is that important. And. And I don't mean that in a pro clutching Reverend Lovejoy way, like think of the children. It's just important for the integrity of the league. It's all the league is talking about. No one is talking about anything. Josh Giddey. Sorry, no one is talking about your contract. I will. But no one else is on the first one I did with Kurt Goldsberry Howard, you might remember, I brought up. This was the day, the first day of this. I brought up this clause in the CBA about circumstantial evidence and how the league apparently has pretty strong leeway to infer cap circumvention, or unauthorized agreements, as it's called in the CBA through circumstantial evidence. And I talked to a number of lawyers who are like, circumstantial evidence kind of gets shit on is like not good evidence. It's actually quite good and useful evidence in criminal trials and civil trials and regular trials, like it's a real thing. And I talked to them and they said, and they told me, like, look, you can nitpick. This clause says the circumstantial evidence has to hit these two check marks. And this clause says it has to hit these two check marks. Forget that. It's a very elastic language in the cba. And the more lawyers I talked to, team lawyers, independent lawyers, scholars, etcetera, they were like, basically, Adam Silver can do whatever he wants. That's. That's where we are here. And so I said on that very first episode, if I'm reading this clause right, there are people around the league who will already tell you that just the stuff in Pablo's first episode was enough to hit that bar of circumstantial evidence and for the league to hit the clip now. And I said, I'm not sure, I'm not a lawyer, but for the. These people are telling me that looks like enough for the league to hit the Clippers with something between a Joe Smith mega penalty and the nothing slaps on the risk that teams are getting for like, you know, low level tampering, let alone the Jalen Brunson kind of tampering. And then I, you know, I talked to more people and read more stuff and the circumstantial evidence, by the way, just to remind people what that is, it's an enormously above market deal, like more than people get for sneaker deals from a tree planting company that the deal was never announced. Kawhi had to do no work. It was explicitly said in the deal he had to do no work. And it turned out that this tree planting company, Aspiration, had many financial entanglements with Steve Ballmer and the Clippers. Steve Ballmer had invested $50 million in the company three or four months or five months before Kawhi set up an LLC to receive money from that company. And that company aspiration had struck a massive sponsorship deal with the Clippers and apparently wanted naming rights on it with them as well, according to Ramona Shelburne. And I've verified that with other sources within the Clippers. And so I, but I, but I, you know, I said like without direct evidence, my prediction was but. And it was. I said this is the second episode I did with Michael McCann who's a legal expert, a sports law expert. I said my prediction, if they don't find a smoking gun or direct evidence is gonna be a second round pick and a big fine, like a million dollar fine. And I was already in the process of revising that prediction cuz I talked to more people in the intervening days and I thought it was gonna be a little bit bigger than that. And then this episode comes out. Look, people are still digesting what has happened in this episode. Do you want me to go over the particulars in brief or do you want to do it?
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C
No, go for it. I've jotted down a few things, but yeah, I'm sure you've got it all laid out.
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A
This is all fresh. We all just listen to this, we all just watched it and Pablo just has lots of stuff. Like he's getting lots of stuff and this is what happens when you dig in on a story. More stuff comes out and he's probably got more stuff in reserve. But basically this company Aspiration is going bankrupt in late 2022, six months or so after they have struck this four year $28 million no show deal with Kauai. And they have a list of creditors that they need to pay, one of whom is the Kawhi Leonard Aspire llc. And they somehow as the company is flailing about and struggling to pay, according to an anonymous employee that Pablo interviewed, struggling to like make rent, struggling to pay salaries to their employees and they're about to lay them all off. They. They pay Kawhi Leonard $1.75 million. Then he finds documentation Pablo does of an incoming payment of $1.99 million and $0.59. $1,909,999.59 from a mysterious LLC into the comp into aspiration a week or so before the Kawaii payment. And it turns out that LLC is controlled by Dennis Wong, who is Steve Ballmer's co. Is the vice chair of the Clippers and he has a new Pablo does anonymous Aspiration employee who talks about how we all knew that this was part of a cap circumvention scheme, that those words are on Anonymously on the record, I guess, and we were shocked and this payment is shocking that it would happen at this stage of our company. So that is the new stuff. And now, Howard, I'm prepared to be wrong on my prediction of a second round pick and a million dollar fine. Because although I have legal experts saying you still have to be cautious about this and I'll read some statements from later, I just think this thing now stinks so badly that even if there is no further smoking gun, even if this is never linked directly to Steve Ballmer, even if he could say, well, Dennis did this, I didn't know aspiration did this, I didn't know, I'm Steve Ballmer, I run the Clippers, Lawrence Frank didn't know, whoever else didn't know. I just think the circumstantial evidence, if this is all borne out, right, and we should point out that nothing that Pablo has reported has been refuted at all by the Clippers, by Steve Ballmer, by anybody, that if just this is borne out, this is enough circumstantial evidence to me to hit them with a major penalty that not a Joe Smith penalty. And I'm going to talk about why. I think that because Joe Smith was five first round picks, down to three, but also not the token slap on the wrist second round pick, fine like a first round pick, it would be my revised prediction, maybe even more draft compensation than that. Because look, I just can't think, I just can't think of a there I'm running. The plausible deniability defense that the Clippers are building is crumbling brick by brick. Do you agree? Do you disagree? What's your take before we get more into it?
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C
I absolutely agree and it's because of not one thing. There's a combination of things here. But if Steve Ballmer felt comfortable enough to go on with Ramona Shelburne last week and give his plausible deniability, I just invested. I got scammed. These people are scammers. This is what happened. I made an introduction of Kawhi Leonard to the company, but then I have nothing to do with it from there. And that's normal practice in the NBA, which it is there. There's the outline of your plausible deniability. The time that he did it, I actually thought, wow, if he's confident enough to go on TV with Ramona and talk about this, this openly and give his explanation for where his relationship begins and ends, presumably with aspiration and why I don't have any knowledge of or involvement with this scheme to pay Kawhi if he's that confident to do that, maybe it's because he knows if he's, if the Clippers were guilty of this, but they know that there's, there is no smoking gun. There's no document, there's no email, there's no text, there's no voicemail. There's nothing to link them to it. We did this so well. Again, presuming guilt for a moment, if you were guilty, but you were comfortable enough going on tv, it's because in my mind, you're confident enough there's nothing there to actually link you to it. But Pablo Torre's disclosure in today's podcast, where it's the minority owner, the 1% owner, Steve Ballmer's old college roommate, according to Pablo as well, who gave them 2 million at the time that they needed to pay Kawhi 1.75 and had no money, that points straight back to the Clippers right there. Right? This is not, this is not some other rogue agent, somebody outside of the clippers providing the 2 million to then funnel to Kawhi Leonard. The, this is a, a Clippers executive, a Clippers owner, a, a, their, the, their alternate governor to the Board of Governors has done this. And at that point I feel like all the plausible deniability, again, if all this bears out, if it's all proven, the plausible deniability to me then goes out the window on behalf of the Clippers. Because if the whole game is, can you prove a linkage between the Clippers and this and aspirations scheme to pay Kawhi, that's the cap circumvention, right? If Aspiration truly did this on their own, it's hard to say it's cap circumvention. It's. When it's directed by the team is I think the key aspect of, of this. And I feel like the involvement of the 1% owner, Alternate Governor Dennis Wong. And by the way, again, Pablo Torre's report says that Dennis Wong's daughter worked for Aspiration. Like, it's, I'm sorry, it's, it's way too clear of a link now for anybody to downplay or dismiss. And I was with you, I was fairly cautious on this and I, I thought there was a scenario where it would be like, yeah, it looks bad, but we couldn't prove it to our own satisfaction. I, I will say one other thing before we move on, which is that as convincing, as compelling as all this is to us in the public, right. And Pablo joked about, you know, being the, the court of podcast or, you know, court of public opinion in the podcast, obviously, the NBA has to find those same aspiration, former aspiration employees and have them tell them the same thing. And even then, one might say that that's hearsay.
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A
How.
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C
Well, how do they know it was intended for cap circumvention? At some point, I do think you need somebody who can say, I was directed to do this by this guy, and this guy was told by somebody from the Clippers that we needed to do it on there. But you know what I mean? Like, I'm still. I am curious if there's a direct linkage.
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A
If they need to. We'll see if they need the direct linkage because. Linkage, because I think that verbiage of circumstantial evidence in the cba.
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C
Yeah.
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Can be interpreted as broadly as the commissioner wants it to be interpreted.
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C
And he basically said as much.
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Yeah. Well, we'll talk about what he said. Just on the. On the Ballmer interview. I said on my podcast on Monday with Michael McCann, I thought that interview was a mistake. I didn't understand why he did it. It didn't move the needle for me at all. I. It like I understood the idea of. Well, the optics being he would never do this if he was. If they were guilty at all. I just didn't. I didn't. It came off to me as vanilla and wishy washy, and I didn't understand why I did it. Now, you were at the Board of Governors yesterday. I could not go because of a child care snafu. My fault. I take full blame for the child care snafu. But it turned out Adam didn't say much of anything. A couple of things that was interesting. He did say he went out of his way. And the Clippers were encouraged by this initially. Now, this was before Poppo's episode came out to say that the burden of proof remains on the league and the law firm Wachtel that's investigating the Clippers and not the Clippers and which. And that he was going to essentially proceed as if this was like litigation. Like, you're innocent to proven guilty. The burden of proof is on the investigating party.
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C
Yeah.
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And I had. The very first thing I did on this podcast was quote a GM saying to me that there's already enough in episode one of Pablo to put the bird. The Clippers have to explain what happened here in a way that is satisfactory to me. I think that's even doubly true today in light of episode number two of Pablo's investigation. I. It's interesting that Adam said that. I wonder if he would revise that statement. But he also said, and I will quote, I would be reluctant to act if there was a sort of mere appearance of impropriety. And apropos that, I will just read a statement that from Gabe Feldman, who's a sports law expert and professor at Tulane, one of the leading sports law programs in the country, who I've known for a long time. Here was his reaction on the record to Pablo's thing today. Which is. Which is what? Okay, I'll just say read it. There is a lot of smoke, but we only have one side of the story so far. The league obviously believes that the allegations are substantial enough to engage a high powered law firm to investigate. But the league has to take these allegations seriously because there is very little that is more important to the integrity of the game than the sanctity of the spending restrictions in the cba. It's too early to reach any conclusions until we hear the justifications for, for the transactions, AKA the Dennis Wong deals that were on earth today. Here's Michael McCann's statement to me, the same law professor I had on who's teaching at Harvard and University of New Hampshire. If there is a provable connection between the Wong payment and Kawhi being paid, it's a big problem. But to me it seems that the NBA won't find wrongdoing unless the dots are connected with reliable evidence. I think the difference between what is reportable by the media and, and what the NBA finds sufficiently reliable are two different standards. And while the former has been met, we don't know about the latter. Like this is what lawyers are going to do. They're going to lawyer this up. They're going to say like we got to ever get everything as buttoned up as possible. I just cannot believe that if nothing else hard emerges, I just cannot believe that the NBA acts does not act at all here. I just think the rage from the other 29 teams, the basketball people are angrier than the ownership people. But a lot of people are angry. I just, I think they just can't. I would be shocked. I'm not a legal expert. I just can't imagine a scenario where the Clippers skirt any sort of sanction here unless revelations come out that just sort of disprove everything that we know already. And so I just, and I. And now I'm at the point where my second round pick in a million dollar fine and by the way, that was. Other people were like lower than Me on that in some circ. I think that's going to be low. I just. This thing just stinks. It stinks. And there's just too much of a, of a. I don't know if you call this a paper trail, but this payment, these bank statements that Pablo has the Clippers minority owner, it's like the fact that this, this tree planting company paid him, Kawhi, to do nothing. Didn't even announce the deal, didn't publicize it at all. Yeah, it's just, it just stinks, man. It stinks. It.
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C
It, it does. And again, the, the, the involvement now of the 1% owner of the Clippers in this other payment that is timed almost exactly when they needed to pay, when, when aspiration to pay. Kawhi, like, it really, really, really, really looks bad. It'll look bad already. But I do think that is a more direct linkage than what we knew previously and what the NBA is going to be looking for. Presumably what Wachtel Lipton is going to be looking for on their behalf is more direct linkages and a much more comprehensive investigation than what even Pablo and his crew can do. Because the NBA has the ability to compel the Clippers to turn over records, which Pablo cannot do. On the flip side of that, Pablo was able to cultivate the relationships and the trust with these former aspiration employees who were willing to talk to him. They have no obligation, as far as I know, to talk to the NBA and its investigators. They could stonewall them if they wanted to. I don't know why they would at this point. It seems like people are pretty willing to talk about this whole scheme, so they probably will. But I do wonder what else might be unearthed. Right. We have, we have some version of the picture here. Adam Silver, you and I have both known him a long time. Zach and I wrote about this on, on the ringer.com the other day. Just my kind of an FAQ where I'm asking myself questions to then answer them, to try to explain where things are and where things might go. And based on a bunch of conversations I had with people around the league and everything else. But one of the things I was trying to get across in that piece is that Adam Silver, from everything we know of him and everything that everybody in the league knows of him, he's pretty cautious on these matters. Right? He is a lawyer by trade and he is cautious by temperament, and he is going to do and say the kinds of things we heard from him yesterday. I was the one who asked the question about Is the burden of proof on you as the league or on the, on the Clippers to prove their innocence? And he says no, the burdens on the league, if we're going to discipline a team or an owner or a player, he says the burden should be on the party that is in those charges.
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A
When is this change? Because this isn't a court of law. Like when do you just get with. Just to change the standard if you're Adam Silver now, I think this is.
- [21:05]
C
Well, so it was interesting though. So as he goes on in his answer, he does note that in a public facing sport, again, I'm quoting, the public at times reaches conclusions that later turn out to be completely false. He's right. Sometimes we don't have the full picture. And that's why you have an investigation. He does say, as a matter of fundamental fairness, as you, as you noted, I would be reluctant to act if there was a mere appearance of impropriety. So he goes through all these things, saying the things that I kind of expected, knowing how Adam generally thinks and approaches these things. But then at the very end, his very last sentence in this answer was, the answer is we're not a court of law at the end of the day either and that we have broad authority to look at all information and to weigh it accordingly. So on the one hand he is stipulating we want to find, we want to prove the case as strongly as possible as, as convincingly as possible to our own satisfaction, to the satisfaction of the other members of the board of governors, everything. On the other hand, he is noting he has broad powers and he, he's, he's got the authority to do this and they're not a court of law, so they don't have to abide by any particular statutes about a degree of proof. Right. So it's all there. But yeah, he was not going to prejudge anything. I will just say this. So I was thinking about this a lot after I left there yesterday. I feel like Adam and you kind of alluded to this, Zach, Adam has two possibly competing considerations when you're weighing punishment, what does he feel justified doing based on the evidence that Wachtel Lipton find over the next coming months, like what's the threshold? What's sufficient to punish the Clippers and to punish them severely, perhaps do you need the so called smoking gun? And what does that look like? Is it a text or an email from a Clippers executive to aspiration saying this is what we're going to do or this is what we need you to do. How much do you need? Like, he has broad powers to discipline. Yes. And the CBA does say circumstantial Evan Solace, but he errs on the side of caution. He's going to want to, he's going to want to be airtight, in his view, to hammer them. So that's consideration number one. What does he feel comfortable what does he need to feel comfortable punishing them severely. But number two, is the whole court of a public opinion part of this? Like, what does he feel needs to be done to protect the league's integrity? Like, other teams have seen enough to render judgment, right. Especially front offices, fans and the public at large have seen enough to conclude that the Clippers are guilty. And so in the court of public opinion, it's already game over and the Clippers got blown out. And so Adam has to weigh what he thinks is sufficient to punish them versus what he thinks is sufficient to also ensure the appearance of integrity or reassure people of the league's integrity. Right. So like I, I think there's a, both of these things are, are coming into play eventually, not right now, because the investigation is just beginning. But I, I, I do think that the last thing Adam can do, especially after the new disclosures by Pablo Torre. Adam can't be Frank Drebin standing in front of the fireworks, warehouse exploding, saying, nothing to see here. Like there is a lot to see.
- [24:05]
A
Here and everybody can he, can he be Enrico Palazzo?
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C
I, I, I would, you know, if Adam wants to sing the national anthem at a baseball game or referee, excuse me, umpire, I should say that same baseball game. Just don't get caught in a rundown. That's the key. Don't get caught in a run.
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A
All right, so first of all, in a you can't make this up situation, Pablo is correct that Ballmer chairs the audit committee of the board of governors, number one. Number two, he might need to abdicate that one for a bit. Number two, I don't know what the regulations are of abdication is contemplated in the NBA constitution. I want to, yeah. Number two, and you can't make this up. I'm texting with a bunch of team attorneys and team presidents yesterday about this, you know, people who this is really in their wheelhouse and calling them and stuff. One of them says, you'll never believe or where I'm going right now. And I said, where? He said, los Angeles. I said, why? He said, because the Clippers are hosting a conference of all the team attorneys right now. So they're all going to A preschedule schedule, Clippers conference. Okay, number three, just apropos, I don't want to reiterate, you know, just like how this era has gone for the Clippers. Kawhi played an average of 44 games per season over the last six seasons. Number four. I was talking to a team attorney, a very high level team executive slash attorney yesterday about what, what punishment could happen here, even if nothing else comes out. Because I had posited that there was this middle ground, a broad middle ground between Joe Smith death penalty and second round pick, token slap on the wrist. And this person's point was compelling to me. It was interesting to me. He said, I get what you're saying about the middle ground because this is going to be, if this ends up being a grayish area, whether it's dark gray, light gray, whatever, it's going to kind of be an unprecedented situation for the league. If there's no document in a drawer like there was with Joe Smith, it's going to be an interesting situation for them. But he said if you punish them at all, you're essentially saying that they circumvented the cap. Circumventing the cap. The punishments for that are established in the CBA and by precedent. Like Joe Smith, like, if you circumvent, if you're punished, that means you circumvented the cap. If you circumvented the cap, this is what the punishment has been historically. He said, you can't like accidentally. There's no such thing as accidental circumvention of the cap. Like there's no, like this idea. Like I, I look at this and I'm like, at the very least, this is like a complete mess of bad diligence, sloppy deal making, shady things. And even if you can't directly say it's circumvention, you should be able to levy some punishment for just being a freaking mess and being too loosey goosey with all this. And this guy was like, no, that's not a thing. You either circumvent the cap or you don't. And I personally, I do think there's a middle ground level punishment between those two polls. But I thought that was interesting and I legit, like, I don't know what's going to happen here. Every day we're finding new stuff out, but this one today is, is on its face, not good for the Clippers. Not the least of which is like, I don't want to get into the CBA stuff. I've overdone it. But there's this language in there about team affiliates paying or making unauthorized agreements with players. I don't, I looked up the technical definition of that. I don't know how that dovetails with this LLC investment vehicle, whatever it is, controlled by Dennis Wong. That would seem to at the very least verge onto being a team affiliate with a 1% owner of a team having an investment vehicle that does this with the sponsor. Like it just is another check mark of. Yeah, so I don't know, but I thought that was an interesting sort of take on what the punishment should be.
- [28:02]
C
I did have one other thought, just kind of. It was an in the moment brainstorm and I threw it at a couple of league people yesterday before I left the board of governors. And, and just the, the kind of the, the post game milling about after Adam's presser. And I asked and this does not exist. And I wonder if it's reasonable for it to exist. It seems to me like given this particular example, Zach, the league should have in its massive staff of people in Midtown at the Olympic Tower. Why isn't there a division? Maybe it's a combination of their accounting and marketing and legal staffs that vets all outside player endorsement contracts, or at least those that are involving team sponsors. Why isn't there a clearinghouse where you sign a deal? Great. Everything has to be on. On the record. And especially again, if it's a. In this, as it was in this case, aspiration was a Clippers partner of sorts. They were a. A sponsor. Those things happen all the time. Rockets in with the Warriors Rockets and sponsors Steph Curry. He does commercials. Why don't those contracts go to the league for vetting so they can go through? And if, and if that were the case, they would see, wait, Kawhi Leonard doesn't have to do anything for this money. Sorry, no, this has never happened. And then in that case, it's probably never being submitted. Why isn't there a league clearinghouse for that? Or alternately, you know, John Hollinger had a great piece in the Athletic yesterday where he was talking about, you know, using the NCAA phrase about institutional control. Institutional control. Could the league instead put this on the teams and say, listen, this is on you. It's your house. These are your players, these are your sponsors, your partners. You have a division combining your legal and accounting and marketing folks. Vet everything and if you see something untoward that is potentially illegal, flag it and send it to us or tell the player, the player as representation. No, you can't do that. You're going to get us in trouble. And if it's on the teams, then if you've created that statute or that process, then you can't plead ignorance anymore. Oh, we didn't know this was going on, sorry. We've already put it in the constitutional bylaws in the CBA that it is on you and you have to be on top of all this. And if not, it is lack of institutional control and we can hammer you for that. And then the teams would lean on the agents and the players and their uncles and anybody else who was involved to do things above board because if not, it's all our asses. And so there needs to be a mechanism for, for checking these, these kinds of deals so that you cannot have a no show deal in the first place. I don't think that that's an unreasonable thing. It would require obviously not just the board of governors signing off on it, but I'm certain the players association would have to be involved as well because it involves player compensation. But it seems to me that the league, in reaction to all of this, once this is all concluded, needs to do more than just whatever they're going to do with regard to the Clippers and discipline. They, they need to actually tighten things, some things up with this.
- [30:56]
A
So Michael McCann mentioned that to me two days ago or three days ago whenever I'd had him on. I, I think something like that will happen now. The teams don't want that because it's more responsibility for them. It has to be collectively bargained with the players union because the players union wants the players to have as much unfettered access to money, of course, the deals as possible. So that's interesting. The other interesting thing here is, you know, the Clippers have gotten control of a couple of future first round picks by just waiting out the pain of the Paul George deal. You know, their Last obligation is 2029 for first round picks, a swap with Philadelphia. It's like if this is going to hang over their head all season. I had, I was talking to a gm, he's like, do they just trade all their tradable picks now to use them to get players in fear that the league is going to seize picks in the future or are they just sort of like frozen, like we just can't really do anything. Or if they did trade picks, would the league to be like, we can take your 2034 pick, we, if it gets to that point or we can just like disregard the Stepien rule for you and take, you know, whatever it's just an interesting sort of side plot. Another thing, Nate Jones, who's been a voice of caution on this, did tweet this and I just want to mention that mention it that while Kawhi was listed as a critical creditor around the time he got the $1.75 million payment that's at issue in today's episode after the $1.99999999 million payment from Dennis Wong's investment vehicle apparently came in. The Clippers are also listed themselves as a critical creditor. So I don't really know what to make of that. But it's, it's something and it's just like a couple other things I heard from a couple people who have dealt with Ballmer before on endorsement deals and they were like he was, he was careful like to vet that this was okay. I just like that's not a defense, that's not a on its face defense anymore. There's just too much smoke out there. Same for the well how does this line up with Kawhi's contract he had already signed in 2021. This deal is not until April 2022. Then he resigns again. But like it just, there's enough smoke now that the timing stuff, I'm just dismissing it because it, it just like it could just be like we just just sort of like perpetually kept Kawhi Leonard happy and this is maybe like how it was done whether Ballmer knew or whoever knew or not. So those things are no longer kind of persuasive to me. And now we just, I think we just wait. Now we now it's gonna be, it's gonna be a long time. This law firm's gonna go to work. Pablo keeps finding stuff out. They'll find stuff out. And I just, it gets harder and harder to believe that they're gonna get off. Not only just not scot free, but not with a slap on the wrist.
- [33:38]
C
Absolutely agree. And I like you had been kind of cautious from the beginning about like well looks bad but what's provable, what's not is there deniability. What will investigation find or not find? All of that stuff. But yeah, I mean today's edition from from Pablo was just. That's really damning. It was all damning before to be very, very clear. But I thought it was damning with just enough ambiguity that maybe you could say well if the Clippers weren't involved. Well now the Clippers were definitely involved. Assuming that everything that was reported in the latest version of Pablo show is found by the league as well. And I believe that they will find probably much more than that. But yeah, for, for practical purposes, Zach, unless Pablo or, or espn, the Athletic, anybody else, unless anybody's uncovering anything else new, I think this kind of moves to the back burner for a while. You know, Adam has now addressed it. He probably won't address it publicly again for some time.
- [34:33]
A
It was interesting how not only he actually kind of went out of his way yesterday to say we didn't talk about it much in Board of Governors because I kind of preemptively told the other owners, we're not talking about this table, all this, which is like, really, he told. He walked in and said that.
- [34:47]
C
Not only that, Zachary, not only that, but I think this is the first time I've ever attended a commissioner press conference, whether David Stern back in the day or Adam Silver now, where there was something of massive news importance and critical importance to the league hanging over the league where when they, because they always do their opening comments and then they say, and now we'll take questions. And then Tim Frank starts calling on us. Adam, in his opening statements, talked about.
- [35:11]
B
We had a.
- [35:12]
C
We had a really nice meeting. You know, we had some presentations from ESPN and Amazon. Amazon, Amazon. We had all these. We talked about this, we talked about that. We talked about European expansion and all this other stuff. And now we'll take questions. He did not try to address it. He did not try introduce it. He knew damn well that, you know, we had a, I think a larger contingent than usual of media folks in the room yesterday. He knew what all of our questions were going to be. He. He did not even say, and I know some of you may have questions about. He, he just didn't even address it. And then he, yeah, he went out of his way when he was asked. He also said about the owners. We didn't talk about it. And I, and I pretty much shut. And I thought all of that was interesting because, yeah, I think it could have gotten pretty heated in there. But, you know, Steve Ballmer was also there. That would be a very awkward conversation for them all to have, and especially at a time when the investigation is just now beginning. So it will go to the back burner. It does have a practical impact potentially, as you note on the Clippers in the near term, because what do, what do they do? What can they do? What are other teams comfortable doing with them if it involved. I mean, if I'm another team, I'd be like, fine, I'll take, I'll take your picks now, like the league's not taking them from me once I've got it. But I, I think that this is basically it's on the back burner. It goes quiet for a while and sometime in like March or April or something, the, the Wachtel Lipton report lands and and we all jump right back in.
- [36:37]
A
We'll see. We'll see what happens. And it's ultimately going to be up to the commissioner of the league like what to do what where that there's just a huge range depending on what is else is found or what might be explained. Slash debunked. We don't know. That's why these lawyers who are experts on this are expressing caution. A little less caution in light of today, but still caution it. We'll just have to see what happens. But that's my take for now. Howard Beck Rita's FAQ at the ringer. Real ones. He's he's going to be on group chat. He's just everywhere. Howard Beck he's everywhere. Including the Brooklyn Organic Grocery Store. Thank you sir. Appreciate things Zach this episode is brought to you by Samsung. If you're someone who's constantly bouncing between games, text notes and stats, guilty. The new Galaxy Z Fold 7 is for you. Z Fold 7 basically turns into a mini tablet when it's open so you can view up to three windows at once. Holy smokes. And watch the game on a wide screen from anywhere that need that widescreen game over. Fold it up and it fits in your hand. Can your phone do that? The Samsung Galaxy Z Fold 7. Learn more at samsung.com display measurements diagonal and actual viewable area is less due to rounded corners and camera hole punch. All right, a brief newsy interlude. Before we get on with the other good stuff. Couple news items for the NBA. News item number one. Heaves at the end of quarters are going to count as team field goal attempts instead of individual field goal attempts. I hate it. I hate it. We're letting these chicken players who won't shoot heaves because they're afraid of a 1.0001 reduction in their field goal percentage. Get off Scott Friel. Now they're going to be able to shoot heaves. I liked exposing those players and I liked lionizing the Steph Currys, The Nicola Jokic's J.R. smith back in the day, Peyton Pritchard, the guys who are like no way. I want to win the game and if there's a 2% chance this crazy shot is going to go in or I'll get fouled or something. I'm taking it. Forget about the guys who oh, oh, I dribble. Oh, I just shot it right after the buzzer. Did I trick anyone into thinking that? I just lost track of time. I hate it. Boo NBA. Boo chicken. Players number two in season tournaments starting in 26, 27. Next season, the semis will be at home games for the higher seeded teams only. The finals will be in Vegas. I like it. The atmosphere wasn't good enough. The tournament is bordering on like, not irrelevant, but people care in the moment and just completely forget what happened. This will make maybe the atmosphere a little bit more memorable. I like one game in Vegas that's good. Item number three. The Chicago Bulls re signed Josh Giddey. Four years, $100 million and they are getting clowned everywhere for it. Boy, do their fans and local media just hate this team. Every decision they make, an untradable contract. Josh G. Stinks.
- [39:30]
D
He's a fraud.
- [39:31]
A
He's empty calories, he doesn't play defense, blah, blah, blah. I looked at the deal and I was like, it's cool. Like, good for them for not bending over backwards. I mean, this is like, this is a team that paid Patrick Williams five years, $90 million based on a resume of nothing. This is a team that has finally discovered that restricted free agency gives them a little bit of leverage. And they squeezed and they got Josh Giddy at a deal that Josh Giddey should be happy about. Given the market this year, given even the market next year with more cap space, not that much more. Mostly bad teams, it's going to be 15% of the salary cap through its life. That's not. That's not nothing. But it's not like, is it untradable? I don't know. Josh Giddy's not a bad player like you. He's not even 23 years old. And you can't scoff at his numbers like you know he'll give. Give you 16, 8 and 8. After all star last year, he exploded. He shot the three better. Ended up at 38% on threes. Is that real? I don't know. Is it real in a way that matters? I don't know that either because a lot of those are wide open conceded by the defense. I looked it up. On second Spectrum average defender distance away from Josh Giddey on threes, almost 8ft. One of the 40 biggest distances in the league among shooters who attempted at least 100 threes. Yusuf Nurkic had the biggest defender distance, by the way. Just a little trivia for you, followed by big Jalen Williams, not wing Jalen Williams and Damon Sabonis. Basically a bunch of centers who can't shoot, can't shoot threes. And most of them, almost all of them were catch and shoot threes, which, you know, Josh Giddey is not a player designed to take catch and shoot threes. The apex version of Josh Giddey is designed to take pull up threes because he has the ball a lot. Well, he only took 51 of those last year. 18 of 51, that's like basically nothing for a guy who has the ball that much. He was 3 of 15 on pull up threes the year before. I mean, that's really nothing. So 18 is an improvement. And look, I've been very frank over the years about the limitations of Josh Giddey's game. It is really, really hard to be the number one ball handler on a good team. Forget the Bulls, who are not a good team, a good team. If you can't shoot or if defensive players are going to treat you like you can't shoot because they're going to go under screens, they're going to wall off the paint when you don't have the ball, they're going to ignore you. We know all of that. And there are tricks, you know, you set re screens and this and that. In the playoffs all those tricks get harder to pull off because the defenses are good and they're focused on you. If you're going to be that kind of player and elevate a team to good to greatness, you have to be a monster finisher at the rim. Giddey improved his physicality and aggressiveness a little bit last year. There was a big jump in his free throws to like four a game almost or four per 36 minutes. That's still not very many. And he is a below average finisher at the rim. You, you have to be an impactful defensive player. He is not an impactful defensive player. You, you have to get to the line a lot. He has not yet done that, although he's very fast in transition and physical in transition. So in, in a sort of simplistic way, he is a player that you have to have an absolutely perfect ecosystem around on both sides of the floor. If he's going to be your number one ball handler, you have to have shooting everywhere. Bulls don't have that. And you have to have at the very least elite interior defense. And the Bulls do not have that. And they don't really have any pathway to getting that right. Now we'll see what Noah Senge can give them down the line, the guy they just drafted. And if you need, if you get a better ball handler than Josh Kitty, then he becomes an off ball player and then his liabilities really stand out. But maybe that catch and shoot three point shooting is real. We'll see. And I think we the mistake that I think most of that analysis is fair. Especially when you're thinking about what place on our organizational hierarchy does this player have? Is he our number one guy? If so, this X, Y and Z has to happen. You can build a system that is not so static as to exist only in two modes. Mode number one, Josh Giddey has the ball. Mode number two, Josh Giddey is standing around away from the ball, totally useless. You have to build an in fact it's an incumbent upon you as a coaching staff to build a half court offense that is more dynamic than that. Where he shifts between on ball and off ball within possessions, where the machine is moving at all times so that help defenders can't load up. Because he is an elite, elite genius passer. He is big and tall and a good shooter of floater shots. He hit almost half his floater shots last year. He should be able to set screens. He should in time be able to develop something, something of a post up game against teeny tiny defenders when they had add guys onto him. And if that he should be able to function as the second or third best player in a dynamic offense. The problem is it's very hard to build that kind of offense and you have to have the first or second best player above him and the Bulls don't have those. I love Buzelis. I think there's so much that he didn't even get to show us last year with what he can do on the ball. I don't know what his ceiling is. The odds are always against anyone's ceiling drafted 11th or 12th or wherever he was drafted, being, you know, an all NBA multi time all star, number one guy in a great team. The good news for the Bulls is they have all their picks. They have a Portland pick and they're set up to have max cap room basically for as many summers as they want. Even if they resign Cody White, even if they resign or extend Desumnu assuming they make wise decisions elsewhere like they're positioned pretty well. We'll see what they do with being positioned pretty well because the history of it is not super encouraging. But I don't hate this deal like everyone else seems to. I think Josh Ganey is a solid player. You just got to optimize them. And optimizing them is difficult and maybe impossible, given this franchise's history, but I think this deal's largely fine for both parties. Okay, on to other stuff. Bill Simmons, you are one of the great proponents of international basketball. You have correctly pointed out its value to playing for. No, you've correctly pointed out, like, the value of playing for Team usa. You've been aghast at certain players passing on the experience of playing with. With their greatest possible peers under the pressure of, like, win or it's a complete failure. So this is going to be a fun exercise. I want to pick the Olympic team for 2028. You ready?
- [45:56]
B
It's a little far away. I was surprised to get the text, but also delighted because for me, it's not too far away. I love thinking about this stuff. I have to. Well, can I just give you my theory, or do you want to wait until you drop your team?
- [46:10]
A
No, I want your theory.
- [46:12]
B
I don't think anyone over 30 should be on the team.
- [46:15]
A
Okay, well, I'm going to have.
- [46:16]
B
It's a controversial. No, I know you. Yeah, I know you're going to have some problems. I just think if I was in charge, if I was the Czar of the NBA, I would have nobody, like, maybe even 28. But 30 would be the cutoff for me because I would want younger guys to get the experience. I think it would mean more to them anyway. I think it's better for them as basketball players. And I just think, like, what happened. I know it was super fun to have Curry and Durant, LeBron and in France and. But I just think that experience is more meaningful if it's young guys who haven't done a ton of stuff yet doing that on the biggest stage possible. I think it's better for the league. I don't think it's just to run it back with guys who have already had all these great moments. I don't think is necessarily helpful for the state of basketball. So that's my case.
- [47:04]
A
So I think my team might actually meet your 30 and under criteria by accident.
- [47:09]
B
Sounds great.
- [47:09]
A
Here's what. Here's why we're doing this. Eurobasket's going on, and we know Wembanyama is not playing, but we know the teams that are coming for Team USA in 2028 in LA had a couple close calls in 2024 with Serbia and France, and the redeemed team just got inducted into the hall of fame. The 2008 Olympic team. So it's been on my mind. I think it's an interesting thought exercise to fast forward two and a half years and pick this team. And my rule for you and for me was no Curry, no Durant, no LeBron. 12 man team. So I will start.
- [47:43]
B
Didn't have him anyway.
- [47:45]
A
Well, I thought about, like, if Durant, who loves Team USA and Curry was so sensational, they'll be like, 39, 40 by this time. The same age as LeBron was. LeBron is too old. If you want to, like, reserve a spot for one of those guys if they want to do it, I don't. I don't hate that. But I'm just saying for the thought exercise, they're out, so let's move on.
- [48:07]
B
Give it to the younger people. Pass the baton. That would be my advice to the old guys.
- [48:11]
A
So I want to start it like this. In the past five Olympics, the US has carried basically three traditional or semi traditional big men and nine guards or wings. I stuck to the three bigs format, and here's where I want to start with you and I revealing our rosters. I have four holdovers from the 2024 team on my 2028 team. How many do you have?
- [48:40]
B
Let's see. Was palo on the 24 team?
- [48:43]
A
No.
- [48:45]
B
Halliburton. Was Edwards. I have two.
- [48:50]
A
All right, here are my four. Halliburton, Anthony Edwards. Jason Tatum. Benched Jason Tatum. He gets another chance. And Devin Booker. You have no Booker, no Tatum. So you went even younger than I did. Yes. Okay.
- [49:05]
B
And I. And I, on behalf of all Celtic fans and Jayson Tatum, no thanks to the Olympics experience after what you did to me last time. Good luck.
- [49:14]
A
Good luck.
- [49:15]
B
We'll be rooting for you from afar.
- [49:18]
A
I'm calling him back. I'm saying this is. This is your chance. This is your chance. Jason Tatum. Okay, so I'm just. I'll just. I'll just reveal.
- [49:25]
B
How do you do starting. Can we do starting fives?
- [49:28]
A
I didn't even do a starting five. You do your starting five. That's a good way to do it. You do a starting five, and I'll tell you what I think and who's on my team.
- [49:36]
B
Starting five. Anthony Edwards and Tyrese Halberton. As the backcourt. We're assuming Tyrese Halberton will be. We'll come back at 100%. I love both of those guys. Edwards probably will be the face of this team, and then Halberton as probably the best reliable point guard that we're going to have. In 2028, I would guess I have Paolo, I have Jalen Williams, who at that point will probably be a four time NBA champion and we'll want him on there as the second best guy. And then Cooper Flagg was Cooper Flag was the first guy I wrote down. This is. He's the absolute perfect Olympics guy. He'll care the most. He can. You can play small ball five with him or he can play, you know, play the fork, play the three. He can guard everybody. He can shoot threes. He is probably the best international player we've produced for a tournament like this in a while, maybe since Durant.
- [50:35]
A
I wonder if you are 5 for 5 for players on my 12 man roster. So I wonder if we're going to go 10 for 12. And so I'm just now going to read you.
- [50:45]
B
I have two guys you will not have.
- [50:47]
A
Okay, I'm interested to hear. Let me tell you my full team and we'll see and then we'll get into the theory of the team and omissions and stuff like that.
- [50:54]
B
Do you like that starting five or is there somebody else you would put in there? Because Flag, Palo, Jalen, Williams, Caliburn, Edwards. I have shooting. I have a couple one on one guys. I have defense. I can basically switch with anybody and I just like that 5 and you.
- [51:10]
A
And you can, you can fly up and down the floor, which is how Team USA plays. Pace, pace, pace. With the starting bigs were Paulo and Flag.
- [51:20]
B
Yeah, but you're going smaller, international. Anyway. How many centers do I actually have to worry about? So Wemby's 35ft from the rim and Jokic will probably be, you know, riding horses somewhere, not playing.
- [51:33]
A
So I did think about like I need, I need a Jokic. I need some, I need something for yic and we down. But I'll just give you my full team because we're five for five so far. I told you my four holdovers, Halliburton, Booker, Edwards and Tatum. I also have Jaylen Williams, Oklahoma City Jaylen Williams and I also have Paolo Banero. The switchability. I think the shooting will come. He's had STEAM USA experience. He's, he's a great international player. I also.
- [51:57]
B
What is. He's 22 right now.
- [51:59]
A
Yeah, he's.
- [51:59]
B
He's 26. He's in the right in the vortex.
- [52:02]
A
I have Cooper Flag, so we got all that covered. J Dub is, I mean like what, what else can you say? He can shoot, he can defend, he's huge. He can play fast. Like he's Just a per. He's a great player in any setting. We don't need to discuss four time champion. Yeah, four time champion. Won a championship with a wrist injury. The whole thing. Okay, here's the guy that I think the established star player that just has to be on the team and is going to be in the thick of his prime is. I have Donovan Mitchell. Do you have Donovan Mitchell?
- [52:33]
B
Did not have Donovan Mitchell.
- [52:35]
A
Wow. Okay, here. I think he'll be in it.
- [52:37]
B
Won't he be in his 30s at this point? I don't think he made my cutoff. No, I think he will because he's like 20, 28 or 29 right now.
- [52:45]
A
Right. This is ageism.
- [52:47]
B
It sure is. He's 29 right now. It'd be 33. Too old. Get out of here. Donovan Mitchell. You're not invited.
- [52:52]
A
Okay, well, you know, all right, I. I have him and I'll give you the. My other two big men. And I'm a little nervous that I don't have a post defender to deal with Jokic or Wembanyama and maybe I need to address that. But I have Bankero is one big. Then I have Chet Holmgren.
- [53:10]
B
Yes, I had him as well.
- [53:11]
A
And Evan Mobley.
- [53:13]
B
I had him as well. Okay, now, did you kick the tires on a Donovan clinging.
- [53:19]
A
The tires were.
- [53:20]
B
No. No tires. Nothing.
- [53:22]
A
Tires were. Not even the tires on the car.
- [53:24]
B
Was there an old school center defender that you. You at least looked in the garage at?
- [53:30]
A
I'm trying to. I mean, old school. I don't know. But I think there's a case to be made to bring back AD or bam for another Team USA run for. For exactly this reason. I didn't. I looked at like, you know, there are some interesting. Like what if done Derek Lively goes crazy in the next two years or Jaylen Duran goes crazy. Somebody loosely associated with Team USA brought up Jared Allen to me and I mean, Jaren Jackson Jr. Was a disaster the last time he was on Team USA.
- [53:57]
B
I need rebounds. I don't need your three rebounds in a 40 minute game.
- [54:01]
A
So I've now covered 10 guys. Halliburton, Booker, Ant Tatum, Mitchell, J Dub, Chet Mobley, Bankero. I have two spots left. I have one guy that I'm absolutely passionate about. Has to be on my team. I'm picking him now. It's early. Has to be on my team. Amen. Thompson is going to the Olympics in 2028.
- [54:18]
B
I had him as well.
- [54:20]
A
I just. Can you imagine what this guy's going to be doing in 2028 he's, he's gonna like rebound, run, defend every position. You put him out there with a center who can shoot. He's gonna screen roll, he's just gonna create. Can you imagine these, these international guards trying to like make layups over Amen Thompson. They're not even going to know what to do.
- [54:38]
B
Yeah, I, at the very least he's in the Doberman spot coming off the bench where they're just the pack of Doberman's come in just flying around like crazy and just scaring the hell out of everybody. You would think like because I had another guy for that that you probably don't have but I had, I had a whole plan for when they bring in the guys flying around side. He has to be involved in that. And by the way, if he learns how to shoot, he might be a starter on this team.
- [55:04]
A
Yeah, I mean I like that he's like in. He's automatic and by the way he's.
- [55:08]
B
He was automatic for me.
- [55:09]
A
He's very much on Team USA's radar for, for this I will say my last spot. I could have gone a bunch of different directions. You have established first team, second team all NBA player Jalen Brunson you have first time all NBA player young rising superstar Cade Cunningham you have fourth big to deal with and be to deal with. Yoka Chiwen Benyama you have the potential. Like do I just need a knockdown shooter? Just one. Just like Desmond Bain, Trey Murphy the third. Cam Johnson just knocked down three point shooter. I went with. I'm just going to take the most versatile great player out of those who can defend a lot of positions. I went Cade Cunningham over Jalen Brunson which is going to make Knicks fans in angry.
- [55:58]
B
Interesting. Did not make my list.
- [56:01]
A
All right, so give me your, give me your full team.
- [56:05]
B
Well, so I had flag paow, Jaylen Williams, Halbert and Edwards as a starting five. Holmgren and Mobley have to be on there. So that's seven. Amen. Thompson had to be eight. And then after that I tried to make a basketball team because I think.
- [56:21]
A
I made a basketball team.
- [56:22]
B
No, no, I'm just saying like I tried to make a team where some guys might not play that much. Some guys are going to be maybe a little happy to be there. Some guys are just like in that young and hungry. I can't believe I'm 21 and I'm on the Olympic spot. The one weakness I had was trying to figure out do you just need a second like pure ball handler. So you have The Kate in that spot. I decided not to do that. Trey Murphy was my ninth guy.
- [56:48]
A
I love it. I think he's. I think he's going to get a look. If he continues to shoot like this, at this volume, his size, I think he's going to get a look.
- [56:56]
B
I'm betting on the upside. I think he's going to keep, keep improving year after year. I think he's. I. Both you and I love him. I think he's like one of the most underrated assets in the league. And he's been in the stupidest situation, basketball wise, probably of, you know, any player like this. And I just think that's the kind of guy you have to have. So he's almost in that, like Carmelo Durant come off the bench, just start firing 25 footers and you're going to change the defense. That's nine. I put Kon Wallace on my team.
- [57:28]
A
Oh, my. I. I love this. He's on my, like, very long. I have this like, long list of 50 names. He. He's on there. Doberman, the Doberman thing.
- [57:37]
B
I wanted him in my group where the guys that come off the bench and people are like, oh, my God, they've unleashed the hounds and they're just, it's him, It's Amen Thompson, it's Mobley. Maybe you keep Jalen Williams out there for a little bit and we're just flying around like maniacs, and I think you have to have that with Team usa. I also think it's a bet on him what he's going to be like over the next couple of years, because you figure Lou Dort and Caruso, I don't think they have both of those guys two years from now. The second April makes it impossible. He's going to keep getting big minutes and big games. I think he'll have to handle the ball a little more as the years pass and maybe he could be my second ball handler. So I would rather have that than Darius Garland because we've seen over and over again the offense, no defense, point guards like Brunson, whoever, usually get kind of shoved out because you need defense and shooting. When we get to like the last.
- [58:31]
A
Three rounds, this is why Brunson is ultimately cut for me. Like, if you look at these teams, they generally can stomach in the end in the real games that matter, one offense first, slight defensive liability, maybe undersized guard, that's it. Just one gets to play.
- [58:50]
B
It's been, it's been the flaw of these teams. Going back to the disastrous 04 with the Iverson, Steve Francis, whoever the Marbury was. The two or three of those guys. Marbury. It was Marbury and Iverson.
- [59:03]
A
I've blocked out the 2004 Olympics. Can I just say one thing about Case and Wallace? I had, I did like a very early most improved player look last week. He, he, I like, he's one of the most interesting players to me because I think he's got a lot in there to, to kind of break defensively. Absolute monster. It's just a matter of like, how much is he gonna really get to show. But I, I, I got my eye on him and I like that pick. All right, so you got two more guys.
- [59:29]
B
Were you doing that with your wife? Who were you doing that most improved thing? Who were you batting that around with? Like somebody on one of those.
- [59:35]
A
Someone in the Ringer podcast number. I just completely forgot about. Maybe Goldsberry. I don't know. It doesn't matter.
- [59:41]
B
Yeah, listen, they have to figure out how to have him handle the ball more. So it's not just SGA and Jalen Williams next year. And I'm sure that's on the priority list for them, which would be good for our team. Okay, my 11th guy. I rarely do this. I guarantee this guy is going to actually be on the team in 2028. That's how strongly I feel about this person. Con Canippo.
- [60:04]
A
Wow. Wow. You're flat. You are guaranteeing.
- [60:08]
B
I'm guaranteeing he will be one of the 12 guys in 2028. He's per. Perfect. Perfect for international basketball. Can play multiple positions, can switch on defense, knows where to go and what to do. Like, very Derek Whiteish. Just kind of knows how to fit in with other guys and can shoot. And I think I, I'm just betting on in three years it will make complete sense that he's on the team. And he's just, he just checks so many boxes for the international thing. He won't care if he plays that much. He'll be ready if you need him. He has insurance at the swing spots. He could rebound. He's the kind of guy that would be on, like, I don't know, Serbia or Lithuania. And you'd be like, God, that guy's killing us. We can't. How does he have 12 rebounds and four threes? So he, he's a must for me. He has to be on.
- [60:59]
A
I absolutely. I mean, that is so out of left field. I didn't even think about conquering. He also went to the right university, attended the right University for this. This.
- [61:08]
B
I'm sitting there like, I want young guys near the end of my bench because those are the guys that aren't going to be like, I can't believe I'm not playing. It becomes a huge story like Tatum style. If, like, we're not playing Devin Booker because Kayson Wallace is playing, I don't want to deal with that. I want my 9, 10, 11, 12 to be happy, to be there and ready to contribute. Now I just keep guys in these things.
- [61:32]
A
I can't wait to hear your last guy is. It could be. It could be any. Every American NBA player is now on the board of possibilities for me.
- [61:40]
B
Yeah, I could give you 100 guesses and you're not going to guess.
- [61:43]
A
Can I get five guesses? Sure.
- [61:47]
B
Yeah. We can play 20 questions. You can keep asking me questions.
- [61:52]
A
We play that in the car sometimes.
- [61:54]
B
This, by the way, I also think this guy, that my 12th guy I think is going to be on the team.
- [61:58]
A
I'm going to. I'm going to get five guesses. So I'm going to go. I'm going to go wild with some guesses. But Brandon Pajemski.
- [62:06]
B
No, he didn't make my list.
- [62:09]
A
Okay, I got to remember under 30.
- [62:12]
B
Why don't you do 20 questions and actually ask me questions?
- [62:15]
A
Okay. Has he. Is. Is he going to be a rookie this season in the NBA?
- [62:21]
B
He's not.
- [62:23]
A
Does he play in the Eastern Conference?
- [62:25]
B
He does not.
- [62:27]
A
Has he played in the NBA playoffs?
- [62:30]
B
He is not. You get. You're getting warmer.
- [62:36]
A
All right, let me, let me bring.
- [62:37]
B
How about this? Is he an NBA player? He's not.
- [62:42]
A
Is he going to be in college this year?
- [62:45]
B
He will be in college this year.
- [62:47]
A
The BYU kid.
- [62:49]
B
Nope, not invited. Can't. We're not positive. He could shoot yet.
- [62:54]
A
Then I did.
- [62:55]
B
You're getting warm.
- [62:55]
A
Who? Who. Just give me.
- [62:57]
B
So Darren Peterson, who's going to Kansas.
- [63:00]
A
Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
- [63:01]
B
He is the number one high school player this year.
- [63:04]
C
And.
- [63:08]
B
Just from all accounts, he's. He's Kobe, like at like very like the Kobe prototype of just like these 6, 5 booker, like guard with size, does everything, plays both ends. And I think he gets the Edward spot in 2000, 2028. Because if you had said in 2020, Anthony Edwards will be on the 2024 Olympic team, you'd have been like, what? That's crazy. That seems really fast. Why would he. I just think they always have a guy like this on the team and I think that's going to be the guy because everyone Is like this guy has it. This guy absolutely has it. This is the best two guard we have produced at least since Edwards and maybe even better than Edwards. And it just seems like the kind of guy they would put on because four years from now they would want him to be one of the leaders of the team. So that's my, it's my last pick.
- [63:58]
A
Let me tell you. If you get one of those three last guys on Team usa, that's a w. If you get two, I think.
- [64:05]
B
I go two for three with those. If Wallace on Wallace thing like. Because the thing with him is that he might. I mean he's also a trade candidate for them. Right. Is even on OK saying in 2028 is he on like freaking wherever. See, I see on like Minnesota or I don't know.
- [64:21]
A
I think he's going to be good enough that they view him as like this is the, the other guy we got to keep. Do you have anyone you'd like to issue apologies to?
- [64:31]
B
Yeah.
- [64:31]
A
Or, or, or any other sort of like way off the beaten path candidate you, you considered? Because I have a couple of those too.
- [64:38]
B
Well, what are yours? Let's hear it.
- [64:40]
A
Well, I mean I don't. I'm not necessarily apologizing to them. It's just interesting to me. And it goes to the small guard thing that none of Trey Young, Tyrese, Maxi or Dear and Fox even came up. Part of that is age for you in some cases. But they're just like they're on my list and no.
- [64:54]
B
So Maxi was my toughest cut pace.
- [64:57]
A
I like he's one of mine too.
- [65:00]
B
Pace ball handling. If there's some sort of pressure situation where we're in like the team I picked where we're like God damn, why do we have Kason, Kayson, Wallace as our backup point guard? Why don't we have like Samir kill the ball. I also think with Maxi it is possible he's one of the best seven, eight guys in the league two years from now. Right. I, I don't, I'm not predicting it. I'm. I'm just saying like it's conceivable, right, that he could be a 27 a game, 8 assists, best guy on a playoff team. So that was the toughest one for me because I don't know what his career is going to look like two years from now. Cade to me, I don't. I, I really liked Cade last year but internationally I worry about that one.
- [65:43]
A
It was a tough one for me too because you know, he's not Gonna. It's the classic problem with all of, like, even Jalen. Well, not Jalen Brown necessarily. I, I thought about Jalen Brown, too. Is like, hey, sorry we snubbed you last time. He's not gonna have the ball as much and his shooting is just okay. I, I did look up, though. He had 39 on catch and shoot threes last year. 37 today, because you, you throw him into closer. FIBA 3. Like, I'm, I'm betting on his upside.
- [66:11]
B
I. My other tough cut was lively. I really did look at him.
- [66:14]
A
There you go.
- [66:14]
B
See, that's another one. Yeah, that was another one where I was trying to project how much better somebody would be two years from now, you know, and, and, you know, I do. What do I think will happen with this team? I think AD will be on it. I think Booker will be on it. I think Tatum will be on it. And I think if Curry wanted to be on it, Curry is going to be on it. Durant gets a little dicier because Durant at that point will have been in the NBA 21 years. And it's not like he's this, this beloved icon in the same way LeBron is. You would have the case of like, well, this will cement him as the greatest US International player ever. He might already be that. I just find it hard to believe with the body that he has in 2028, that he's still going to be, you know, still going to be able to move in the same way. Seven feet tall. He said major injuries all over the place. I, I'm just skeptical.
- [67:10]
A
We, We. We're moving on. We're. I'm moving on and building my team. I, I mentioned the knockdown shooters that I considered. You put one of them on. And Trey Murphy. Mpj. How about this? More. More likely to be on Team USA 2028.
- [67:28]
B
Yeah.
- [67:28]
A
Ready? More likely. We didn't have either of them. John Moran or Zion Williamson. Oh, my God. Probably.
- [67:37]
B
I would say Zion.
- [67:38]
A
I think it's actually Zion.
- [67:40]
B
Yeah.
- [67:40]
A
What if.
- [67:41]
B
What happens if Zion has this amazing career turnaround and becomes one of the best guys in the league and just figures it out? I, I just don't think Jaws game lends itself to international at all. He's. He's a battering ram. You can't have that internationally.
- [67:54]
A
A couple under the radar guys that I looked at. Christian Brown.
- [68:01]
B
I had him written down. I thought that was so he'd have to go up one level from where we saw last year, which I thought he was pretty good, but I, I, yeah, I just. There's other more guys I like more in that spot. But. But he's also young enough that it's not inconceivable. Right.
- [68:17]
A
I'm just.
- [68:18]
B
I don't mind that one.
- [68:19]
A
I'm just saying these are guys that are on my list of like 52 guys. That's the amount of guys on the list. Yeah. If the shooting went up another notch, would Jaden McDaniels get a look for you?
- [68:31]
B
Yeah.
- [68:32]
A
Yeah. That's a good.
- [68:33]
B
I think it's like in them. One of those, like the. Bring up the bench. I had one more like that. I mean, this is a deep cut. It's ridiculous. The odds are 200 to 1. But Tar Eason, I like that. If he jumped up nine levels, could he be one of the guys coming off the bench that you just release like. Like maniacs.
- [68:53]
A
You just take him and Thompson off the. Like what they do with the Rockets. Just do that. Do that for Team usa, dude.
- [68:58]
B
Just do that. Do the thing where you're just like, go take the ball from the other team. I had another one that was a deep, deep, deep cut that. You're gonna laugh. Is Peyton Pritchard, like, inconceivable as the 12th man for. For the shooting and just nothing's inconceivable. Not be able to play. Not. Not caring if he plays.
- [69:17]
A
You put. You put a high school kid and con caniple on the team. Nothing is inconceivable. He's more 11, 12.
- [69:24]
B
I want. Yeah, I want people who are so delighted to be there.
- [69:28]
A
He'll take heaves, too. He doesn't care about his field goal percentage. He'll take heaves.
- [69:32]
B
How about this? Who's the most ridiculous? There's no way this guy makes it name. That actually kind of makes sense if you think about it.
- [69:42]
A
I mean, Michael Porter Jr. Brandon Miller.
- [69:47]
B
Michael Porter did not make my list. I thought the Brandon Miller upside thing. I had Tyler Hero.
- [69:53]
A
He's Canadian.
- [69:56]
B
I had nem hard forgetting that he was Canadian.
- [70:01]
A
I mean, but it is unlikely. It's unlikely that he will make Team usa.
- [70:06]
B
Well, I was trying to think, who is the Derrick White? Because four years ago I wouldn't have said Derek White was going to be on Team usa. But who is like the glue guy? I kind of do everything well. Everyone likes playing with me. That's kind of where I landed on Knipple. But I didn't know who the guard version.
- [70:24]
A
Well, that's why I had Pajemski on my list. Jalen Suggs is, you know, had him.
- [70:30]
B
Written down as well.
- [70:32]
A
Yeah, this was, like, a lot more fun than I thought it was going to be to build. To build this team and try to make it somewhat of a reasonable basketball team. And think about Wembanyama and think about Jokic, because if jokic plays in 2028, like, this is going to be a pretty epic Olympics because France is only going to get better. There are other teams that are going to get better, and Jokic is like, could still be the best player in the world. Is probably likely to be the best player in the world at that.
- [70:55]
B
Well, that's why your Jared Allen suggestion was kind of boring, but also not crazy, because you might just need a sturdy guy like that if there's. If you're looking around and there's three countries with centers that we're gonna have to figure out how to slow down a little bit.
- [71:10]
A
I mean, it's the one game we actually needed Embiid to play and play well in. I just wrote him off as, like, just. I can't project Joel Embiid to be healthy enough to play the 2028 Olympics at his age at that time, too.
- [71:23]
B
Joel was not on my list.
- [71:26]
A
Paul George. All right. This was.
- [71:31]
B
Paul George was. Paul George was not on my list. Did you. Did you look under the hood at Mikhail Bridges at all?
- [71:38]
A
He's on me. He's one of my 52 players. Yeah. You know, I just. I just. I'm more excited about some of these other. Other names.
- [71:44]
B
Did you think about Aaron Gordon for a split second?
- [71:46]
A
I did. He's. I thought about him for more than a split second in that sort of like, if Cooper flag isn't ready somehow. Aaron Gordon, Jalen Johnson, Swiss army knife, just, you know, do a little bit of everything. I just. He's going to be on the older side by then, I think. Over 30.
- [72:00]
B
Yeah.
- [72:01]
A
And.
- [72:01]
B
And that's why he left off for.
- [72:02]
A
Me, the leg injuries the last couple years. I'm just like, get. Take the summer off.
- [72:06]
B
I'm glad you mentioned Jalen Johnson, because he's another guy you would mark down as he might be in a different spot in a better way, career wise. Two years from now, where. Two years from now, I'll be like, oh, he's got to be in the team, because he, you know, he.
- [72:20]
A
He.
- [72:20]
B
We haven't seen, like, the full healthy season from him on a good team, and I think the Hawks are at the team. We both.
- [72:25]
A
We both really, like, this is. This was a lot of fun. I enjoyed doing this more is there. Before I let you go, is there any NBA take you just want to get off amidst the NFL focus. Is there anything on your mind this morning on NBA? Yeah.
- [72:40]
B
What am I going to do with my Clippers tickets? That's probably it. That's the only one. Like if, if Kawhi's contract gets voided and they can't replace him, and I wasn't that excited about the rest of the team anyway.
- [72:56]
A
Yeah, all bets are off.
- [72:58]
B
That's something. It still feels like about two weeks early to think about the NBA in a real way. But I, I. There are a couple teams I'm starting to get excited about, and I've also been. I got to be honest, I've been involved in some Celtics text conversations about what we're actually going to expect from this team, whether this is a throwaway year. There's a camp in Celtics nation that we have our own pick. Let's toss it. Let's just toss the season.
- [73:24]
A
Toss the season, Jay.
- [73:25]
B
Let's come up with a fake injury for Jaylen Brown. Let's just do this correctly. I, I just think, as I've said many times, Missoula is a maniac, and I don't see him ever doing that well.
- [73:36]
A
Look, we'll have a lot of time to talk about NBA stuff. We're gonna. We got some. We got some interesting things planned. Go. Go back to your regularly scheduled football programming. Thank you, Mr. Simmons.
- [73:47]
B
This episode is brought to you by NBA 2K26. A favor to my sons and me. All right, quick break. NBA 2K26 stacked this year. Gameplay new motion engine smoother catch and shoot. The rhythm shooting is dialed in. My team added the W. So now you can get Caitlin Clark pulling up from deep. Larry Bird talking trash mid game. Jokic casually dropping triple doubles. It's absurd in the best way. My career has a whole new storyline. The city's tighter and you're on the court way faster. I've been playing video basketball games. I think the first one was early 80s. I'm stunned. Like when I go and my son's playing with his friends and I go in and I barge my moon and I start playing with them. I'm just amazed by how good, how detailed all the games are, how they really look like NBA players. 2K26 is finally here, and yeah, it is absolutely loaded. If you care about basketball even a little, you're checking it out today. Ball over everything.
- [74:42]
A
All right, it's time for a mopey little walk around Mets corner Big Woz. Here's where we are. 76 and 75 straight losses. Clinging, trying to hold off these 70, 47, 74 and 72 Cincinnati Reds and the 74 and 72 San Francisco Giants. Some days when the hitting's been on fire, the pitching's been a problem. Then the pitching was on fire, the hitting was a problem, and then. Then now they both don't work. I don't know what's going on, man. This is getting. It's not going great right now on Mets corner.
- [75:19]
C
It's.
- [75:21]
A
It's.
- [75:22]
D
It's just met stuff. A buddy of mine coined them the New York Mess years ago. And whenever things are going bad, that phraseology just comes into my head. The New York Mess doing it again. And if you've been following this franchise long enough, you know that moments like this are never too far around the corner, right? I mean, just in recent history, the LCS against St. Louis, where Beltran strikes out. This would have been what, 2006, I believe.
- [76:04]
A
Adam Wainwright. Yeah.
- [76:06]
D
Beltran strikes out looking. Never even picks the bat off of his shoulder. 2007, collapse. We fire Willie Randolph. We bring in my guy gerrymanuel. We're up seven games with 17 to go in the NL East. We lose on the last day of the season, blow a lead to the Florida Marlins. This is 2008. I mean, the one that pisses me off the worst is the World Series loss, of course, to Kansas City, where, like, we were legitimately a better team than them. And this freaking guy, La Familia, could not get an out ever. I mean, that's the one that, like, sticks in my craw the most. I have a.
- [76:57]
A
Like a.
- [76:58]
D
A vivid memory of sitting in this bar. Oh, my God. What was this freaking bar called? It was like this. It was like a cross between, like, a restaurant, like a British pub in Bed Stuy. Brooklyn on Bedford Ave.
- [77:12]
A
I forget Black. Black Swan.
- [77:14]
D
That's what it was called. I'm sitting in Black Swan just watching La Familia meltdown. And the game is on. And, like, it's Brooklyn, like, Bed Stuy. Bunch of hipsters. None of these people really even care about what's going on. And I'm just sitting in my seat, seething around these people who just really couldn't care less. Just Mets collapse after Mets collapse. But, yeah, this one is starting to feel like Gerrymanuel. And those boys, David Wright and Carlos Delgado and plucky little Daniel Murphy and Jose Reyes and all of these guys. Johan Santana was our best pitcher that year, just oh, my God. Unbelievable.
- [77:58]
A
So the kids are. The kids are great. Like, McLean's been very good. The ball is just doing crazy stuff like moving sideways. Sproat made his debut there. Day was fine. Looked pretty good. Tong is pitching tonight. I think he's been. He's been pretty good. When they're not pitching, it's like, I'll turn on the game in the second inning. And it's just my. I'm just expecting it to be three. Nothing. Like, it's. Oh. Holmes is throwing 52 pitches and has no outs in the third inning. It's just every freaking game with these guys. Holmes, Manaya, I don't know what the hell happened to him. And if you had a boy, it's the starting pitch. He just hasn't been good enough. The Mets are 16th in era. They're actually fifth in OPS. Like, their offense has been awesome. Soto is just. Soto. Soto, I will say was. He had a solo home run last night to pull the Mets within. To within nine. Two. I think in the ninth inning, I could deal without the celebration and, like, pointing to. Pointing to the outfield, I could do. I could do without. You know what else I could do? And then Brandon Nimmo after the game. Did you see Nimmo's quote after the game?
- [78:57]
D
What did he say?
- [78:58]
A
Something to the effect of John Heyman has it. There are a lot of teams hoping we don't make the playoffs. There are definitely teams that don't want to see us on the other side. Look, man, how about win a game over? How about win a game, man?
- [79:11]
D
Why did you not want to see the team that started. They started 45 and 24, Zach.
- [79:19]
B
I know.
- [79:19]
A
Best record in baseball.
- [79:21]
D
This thing was. This season was on its way to being one for the ages. Like, I.
- [79:27]
B
Like, I.
- [79:28]
D
First of all, like, a lot of times I'm not in a position to watch the games, and I get the freaking. The athletic, they send me the alert because I'm following the Mets on the athletic app, and it's like, nothing. Mets win. I'm like, this is insane. The Mets can't lose. And I'll inevitably rewatch the game or rewatch highlights or whatever the case may be. And then for, like, yeah, basically six weeks now, it's been pure chaos and misery.
- [79:55]
A
And you know what, though? Like, this is part. I'm glad to be a fan again. It's been so much fun. And, like, the pain and the anger and the agony, like, that's all part of it. Like, a part of my soul, a Part of my soul has been re lit by all of this. And look, they're still in the playoffs. Just like, hang on, you get in, you never know what happens. There's a lot of talent on the team, but it's just like they can't get every part of the team going at once. Apparently this Gilbert guy they traded to the Giants for the sidearm reliever is playing well.
- [80:28]
C
You see.
- [80:29]
A
How did you see Helsley come in the other day and throw a scoreless inning against Philly? He did.
- [80:35]
D
Listen, man, it's, it's such a chaotic, the season is just so chaotic, even down to you mentioned Soto, how he started so horribly. And then of course there's the memes on the Internet and he's lost his powers. The second he goes across town to the Mets and he's having a good season, like this guy's smacking home runs, you know, damn near every other day. And then you have the insane hot streaks. It's just, I don't know, it just kind of feels like a microcosm of what it's like to be a Mets fan over the years. And for me, it's, it's, it's, it's fun even when we're getting our asses kicked. Because the only two teams I really care about anymore at all in professional sports are the Mets and the Jets.
- [81:25]
A
Where.
- [81:25]
D
The jets, there's just, there is no hope. There's no, there's no idea that you're gonna go to a Super bowl or win a Super bowl or even win your division or, you know, when you're the jets, you, you face Tom Brady for 20 years in your own division, right? You watch your division rival win six Super Bowls, right? And you make it to the, like, you know, we make it to the AFC Championship game three times in that Spanish, right? Whereas the Mets is like, no, you go to World Series, lose Subway Series to, you know, Roger Clemens and all these, you know, freaking snake ass Yankees. Like you lose to Kansas City, you get to the LCS Last year, like the Mets actually give you hope all the time. That's the, that's the thing about this team. And then of course you go to Citi Field and there's the atmosphere and the camaraderie of like just, just shared love and belief of the team. Last year, the day they got to the lcs, I was actually in New York City. I was at this artist, this guy named Big X, the Plug. He was like, he had some listening event and I was at his listening event. And it was like a cool little thing. And I left as soon as I can to watch the ending of that Mets playoff game. And, Zach, would you believe that I shed a tear that night?
- [82:43]
A
I believe it.
- [82:44]
D
Because the freaking Mets got to the LCS because they scrapped their way. They, you know, they went on this incredible streak at the end of the season. And, you know, all the craziness with the mascot and all the craziness happening around the team, I was like, no other thing in sports can make me feel this way. So while this season, like, has tried its best to destroy my summer, I'm. I'm remaining hopeful. I'm happy enough, bro.
- [83:15]
A
Well, I'm going to Old Timers Day. They call it alumni game now on. On Saturday at City. So I'm hoping, like, you know, we win a game between now and then, maybe, like, extend. Extend this cushion for the third. Wow.
- [83:28]
D
What time is that game?
- [83:30]
A
The. The alumni game? They're doing, like, Team Shea, so they got a bunch of shit like, Jay Payton is playing. Benny Agbayani is involved. Turk Wendell Film filmed a promo for social media. They're doing Team Shay versus Team City. And you're supposed to be there by two to see that game. And then at the real game is. Is at four against the Rangers. Degrom is I is slated to pitch that game. I think Soto up to fourth in ops, by the way. Judge Otani, George Springer, Sodo.
- [84:03]
D
That's crazy.
- [84:04]
A
And he's gonna. He has 30 steals. Yes, 30. 31 steals. No, one.
- [84:08]
D
He's having a monster season. He's doing everything that we could have possibly hoped for. And the idea would be that we would unleash this guy in the postseason. Jesus Christ. They need to hold on to this.
- [84:23]
A
Can you ask me, say, if they choke this away with this payroll and this offseason? Oh, my God. That's like a DEFCON one level choke job. And, like, I don't. I don't know enough about how baseball teams behave in the off season after things like that and who gets fired or whatever. Or, like, it would make me think, like, does that mean just. They just let Alonzo walk and start going around young guys. Plus, Soto, what does it mean for Lindor? Because if this team can't win, like, 83 games or 84 games to get into the playoffs, they can't hold off the Reds and the Giants, who are mediocrity. The Mets are mediocrity. Like, if this is just what they are, I don't know. What do you do in the off season. This is sad.
- [85:02]
D
I don't think so. I, like, I, I think you gotta roll the again. And you know, management could just pitch it as just a bad break and everything not coalescing in the right way. So it's just so funny. Like I had to look this up today. I was like, I forgot who our general manager was.
- [85:20]
A
Stearns.
- [85:20]
D
In 2000. No, in 2008 it was Omar Minaya who like came in with this incredible reputation and then of course left in disgraces. Many, you know, met, met upper management guys end up doing. I don't think they'll blow it up. There's so much obvious talent on the team. I know. Like the point of the, the point of this is to win. I just can't believe that they won't turn this around in time to like just make the freaking post season. Guys like, Jesus Christ. This isn't, you know, the 1920s where you had to win the whole freaking league to get to the playoffs, bro, like make the postseason.
- [86:03]
A
And the, the highs and lows of this, of being. I forgot. So, like, it's, it's Thursday. Six days ago. Friday night, my wife and I went into the city to meet up with a couple friends over some. We had some cocktails at a cool bar. I can't remember what the bar was. Cool bar. Went out to a little, little food and we got done with dinner. I was. And my daughter was at a sleepover, so no child care necessary. And like, it's only like 9:45. Like, let's keep it rolling. I don't gotta get on the train back to suburbia loserdom. Just, just yet. We walk into Park Avenue Tavern on 39th street because it's near Grand Central. All the TVs at the bar, every single TV is either US Open or Yankees game. I go, I'm like three drinks in. I go to the bartender, I'm like, hey man, could you just give me like that tv?
- [86:51]
D
One Mets, please.
- [86:52]
A
It's the ninth inning. Can you just give me one tv? He switches like the main TV to the Mets game. I did not ask for that. The woman next to me is intent on watching the tennis, her angles now. She's like literally asking the bartender, like, who told you to do that? Who asked you to do that? Why, Why'd you switch off to us? I'm like, the US Opens all over there. And I, I. They switched it just in time for Diaz to get out of the bases loaded jam in the first game in the ninth inning. And I'm like, yeah, we're 11 games or 500. We're back. Like, what a great job idea. We can bury these guys with one more win in this series. Flash forward six days. They haven't won a goddamn game since. And I'm sitting here thinking about what happens if we choke this away. This is. I forgot what this is. Like, that woman was mad, by the way. I was like, look, it's the. It's the ninth inning. They'll switch it back on in, like, five minutes. You think Alcaraz is going to lose to this dude from Canada or Sinner, Whoever was playing the number 25. 5. See, we know how the match is going to end. Settle down.
- [87:49]
D
That was a fun match, actually. I. I caught some of that.
- [87:54]
A
Look, look, look.
- [87:55]
D
Last season, I think, was such a high and did feel a level of. It did feel like a magic carpet ride, you know? And then you signed Soto on the off season, and it's like, okay, like, now it's time to take that step forward. And so, again, man, as a Mets fan, like, this kind of disappointment, I'm. I'm kind of been stealed, too. I'm used to it, and I'm not gonna give up hope that things can turn around. It's just.
- [88:25]
A
I'm.
- [88:25]
D
I'm not gonna be completely shocked if we get overtaken by the Cincinnati freaking Reds. Like, this is just. This is just the reality of how things tend to go around here. But, man, you just inspired me. I have to be out in. Actually, I won't even say I'll tell you after we get off, but I have to be somewhere on Friday.
- [88:49]
A
And.
- [88:49]
D
I'm spending the night over there. But I might be able to make it back to Queens in time to Old Timers Day. I need to make some phone calls.
- [88:58]
A
If you do, let me know. By the way, this is what's happening in my life. I made. Through a buddy of mine. Through a buddy of mine. I made my first venture into enemy territory on Tuesday night for Yankees Tigers.
- [89:09]
D
I've still never been, and I'm never going. I refuse.
- [89:11]
A
I went. And they were given away. Away. We sat in really good seats, and they were giving away. When you walked in a sweatshirt. And I just like, no. I was like, no. Like a little hoodie. I was like, no, I'm good. And the woman was like, take it. You have to take it. It's free. And I'm like, first of all, I don't have to take anything. Like, you know, like, I cannot. I cannot take the sweatshirt. She's like, no, it's free. Don't you understand? I'm giving it to you. I'm like, yeah, don't you understand? I don't want the Yankee sweatshirt. And then my wife was like, come on, we have some friends who are Yankees, Yankees fans. Just take it. And I'm holding it like a bag of dog poop, like carrying it around like, I don't want this. And my wife likes it because it's soft. And I'm like, that's fine. Don't wear it around me. And she said, what if I black out the ny? I'm like, I'll still know. I'll still know. But it was, it's. It's a nice stadium. It's a little antiseptic, but it's not as nice as Citi Field. It was nice. And I got to see an all time Yankees meltdown. They lost 12 to 2 and the Tigers scored eight runs in one inning without committing it out. There was a wild pitch, a pass ball, two bases loaded, walks. It was. And that was. I wasn't cheering, I was just observing. It was nice, but it was, it was a, it was a fun game to see.
- [90:16]
D
I love the. One of the few joys of my baseball life is that the Yankees have not won a World Series since my guy, a rod delivered for them in the postseason. They hated. Oh, we hate a rod. He's so terrible. Blah, blah, blah. Last time they won a rod delivered it for him. So it's a great joy for me.
- [90:36]
A
We got a big weekend coming up, guy. Let's get this win tonight against Philly. You know, I mean, our playoff odds are 83%. That feels like a lot. And it feels like, like a lot. It feels like it's crumbling. But there have been other times where it's felt like it's crumbling and they've rebounded and gone on random winning streaks. But man, this has been a frustrating, frustrating. So. Oh, Helzy, I mentioned.
- [90:57]
D
Hell, before we get off Mets corner, I want to ask you about the unofficial unannounced retirement of Ben Simmons. Where you at on that?
- [91:09]
A
I mean.
- [91:12]
D
How will you remember the Ben Simmons NBA career, bro? I, I mean, he's done after his rookie extension. Zach Lowe.
- [91:21]
A
Yeah.
- [91:22]
D
I mean, that's insane.
- [91:23]
A
He was done the moment he passed the ball against the Hawks. I mean, that was the end. And you could see it trending the year before, the year they lost to the Raptors in seven games. I wrote a story during that series. I interviewed him about how he had been kind of like Relegated to just standing around the dunker spot because Butler and Embiid were doing everything and it was very clear that they were like, we don't quite know what to do with you, but you're the number one pick. You're afraid to get fouled. You're starting the fouls or foul shooting starting to become an issue. And then it just spiraled from there. And like, I don't have any reaction to it. It's. It's obviously sad. Like, he had real back injuries. Those are a real thing. That's not a made up thing that affected his game. But the mental stuff was just obvious. And like, you asked me for my reaction. I'm not making light of it that I, like, I kind of just stopped thinking about when he got to the Clippers last year. You would have people like, oh man, he could really help them off the bench. He's going to be a backup fan. I'm like, I'll believe it when I see it because I just know what's going to happen. He's going to have like two good games, then he's going to be afraid to get fouled and he's not going to play in the playoffs. And that's exactly what happened. So I'm not surprised. No one has really expressed any.
- [92:27]
D
Interesting.
- [92:30]
A
The whole, I mean, we don't need to get in. Like, is it crazier than Markelle Fultz? It's like the fourth craziest Sixers process story behind Colangelo and Fultz. Do you have any reaction or did you, like, why do you ask for me?
- [92:43]
D
I kind of like, it's just, I've been saying Ben Simmons would not make it past his rookie extension for a while. I'm talking about, like, early on. I'm like, this dude isn't going to make it. And just having it come to fruition is just. I just can't remember a story like this. Like, you know, when he got drafted, I'm, I'm not kidding. Like, he was in the same breath as LeBron as a rookie. Like, the idea of like a dude this big and this skilled on the ball and this savvy in terms of his court vision and all of this stuff, athleticism. And to see him get to this point and you know, just personally, like, just all the stories that you hear about Ben Simmons personally, it's like, man, this is not gonna turn around in terms of like his approach to NBA basketball. It's just kind of crazy. It's just crazy to me. Like, I Saw a clip yesterday where somebody was like, yo, Ben Simmons isn't going to get signed. He's out of the NBA. And I'm just like, man, that is so. What a crazy. What's it been, nine years?
- [93:54]
A
Yeah. Let me see what his draft year is. Yeah, it's. It's an all time, like strange. How did that happen? Career. Yeah. It would be interesting to redraft this draft class. Simmons, Ingram, Jalen Brown. Jalen Brown would be picked over the first two guys, obviously. Then you got Jamal Murray at seven, then you got that. It's not. You see Akam at 27 would be like the third pick in the draft probably. But yeah, I mean, it's just, it's sad. And yeah, I got nothing else to say other than let's go Mets, man, if you, if you make it over there, if you make it over there, let me know.
- [94:31]
D
You got the wheel spinning on this because I'm in New York until Wednesday, so I might have to hit this city versus Shay game. By the way, that's how we closed out Shea Stadium, the 2007 collapse. For Mets fans that want to be even more sad about what's going on.
- [94:48]
A
I need to do research on that one because that's in my, that's in my checked out dark period where I'm just not even 2008.
- [94:54]
D
That was brute, that dude. That was brutal. And you know, to make matters worse, I think like we. You always hated the Braves because of their run in the 90s and their level of success and Chipper Jones and all of that stuff. But the Phillies were quickly emerging as more hated than the Braves easily. So to blow it to the Phillies and their God, I don't know any Braves fans, to be honest with you. I know, I think I know one Braves fan, Zach Harper. Outside of that, I don't know anyone, any of them. I know I have a lot of Philly people in my life, so I know a lot. You know, I know a lot of Phillies fans and their fans are just, oh my God, just think of the Yankee fans without the justified arrogance and you got the Phillies and oh my God, it was misery, just misery.
- [95:46]
A
I missed the whole like Phillies, Mets becoming a real deep hatred thing.
- [95:51]
D
To this day, I hate him.
- [95:54]
A
I love the city of Philadelphia. I love their colors. I love the Philly fanatic. I loved the 93 team, I think it was that lost to the Blue Jays in the World Series with all the long hair and beards and just gross dudes just balling out. And I cheered for them when they played the Yankees in the World Series, obviously, and lost. So I don't mind that. I haven't learned to hate them yet the way I hate the Braves and hate the Yankees. But this is all I'm asking for the Mets. I live it. Everyone here is a Yankees fan. It's like 90% Yankees fans, 8% Mets fans, 2% random where you're from originally fans. I just don't want to walk around embarrassed. Like, I don't want to walk around the neighborhood like, you missed the playoffs, man. You got Soto from us and you missed the playoffs. Like, I don't want to deal with that. So just like, even if you get to the playoffs and lose in one game and you're out, it's like, just get to the playoffs because I can't live. I can't live with the offseason. Please. All right, wives, go do group chat. Maybe I'll see you in Queens on. On Saturday. It's great to see you, bud.
- [96:53]
B
Whoo.
- [96:54]
A
That's it for the Zach Low show today and probably for this week, unless something else happens. And if Pablo Torre keeps finding stuff out, something else might happen. But if not, we will see you back here in this usual spot on Monday. Thanks to Howard Beck, thanks to Bill Simmons, thanks to Big Woz. It would. I'd really like to thank the Mets in advance for winning tonight. Maybe try. Try that. Thanks to Jesse Jonathan and Steve Ceruti on production. See you next week at the Zach Low Show. Thank you all for listening and. Or watch.