LeBron Returns, the Pistons Are Rolling, and Insights to Mediocrity With Steve Jones Jr.

Summary

The Zach Lowe Show (The Ringer)

Episode: LeBron Returns, the Pistons Are Rolling, and Insights to Mediocrity With Steve Jones Jr.
Release Date: November 19, 2025
Host: Zach Lowe
Guest: Steve Jones Jr. (The Dunker Spot Podcast, Yahoo Sports)

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Episode Overview

Zach Lowe welcomes Steve Jones Jr. to dive into the most compelling NBA storylines of the week. Main topics include LeBron James's season debut and the reinvigorated Lakers, the Detroit Pistons’ electrifying 13–2 start, injuries across the league, an in-depth discussion about stylistic variety atop the Western Conference, insights about rising teams, extensive thoughts on mediocrity, and quick-hitting gripes about NBA culture and coverage. The conversation is a blend of strategic breakdown, honest assessments, and classic NBA banter.

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Key Segments, Themes & Timestamps

1. LeBron's Return: Lakers Season Debut

[03:19–14:24]

• LeBron's First Game Back:
  • LeBron posts 11 points, 12 assists; notably deferential early, takes over more as the game progresses.
  • Lakers’ offense “A+”—three-man synergy with LeBron, Luka, and Austin Reaves developing.
  • “You have what Luka does and you have the growth of Austin Reaves … LeBron can kind of come in. I think you saw him play in the flow a lot more.” — Steve Jones Jr. [04:15]
• Offensive Highlights:
  • Play design and execution: e.g., LeBron-Reaves pick and roll to post mismatch with Luka flaring off-ball.
  • LeBron’s feel in transition and half-court offense, finding Ayton, Smart, showing strong post passing.
  • Strategic rotations: Subbing LeBron and Luka’s minutes to keep offensive engines on the floor.
• Defensive Questions:
  • Starting five (Reaves, Luka, LeBron, Rui, Ayton) looks slow, struggles with containment and switching.
  • “Defensively, I will say that starting five looks slow … Reeves, Luka and Rui and a pretty traditional center in Ayton. The speed even like Svi flying around the floor was too fast for them.” — Zach [08:50]
• Takeaway/Concern:
  • Offense appears cohesive; defense needs time and perhaps rotation tweaks, especially with Marcus Smart's role as a stabilizing force.
  • “For the Lakers, they don’t want to put two on the ball ... Their worst moments are when they’re not decisive on the defensive end and not communicating.” — Steve [09:35]
• Lakers’ Outlook:
  • 11–4, 4th in West, but face a tough conference with OKC and Denver at the top.
  • “I think the Lakers could compete in any playoff series … But winning three in the West just feels like too much of a stretch for me when one of the best players is 41 years old.” — Zach [15:01]

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2. Stylistic Variety in the Western Conference

[16:47–20:37]

• Debunking homogeneity; OKC, Denver, and Houston all win with wildly different styles.
  • OKC: Defensive frenzy, midrange assassin (SGA), extreme versatility.
  • Denver: Jokic-driven, last in drives/threes yet bludgeoning on offense, connected team defense.
  • Houston: “First team to chase a championship where at least 50% … is missing a shot and just getting a rebound on their own misses and beating the hell out of everybody and being giant.” — Zach [17:23]
• Steve’s Add-on:
  • Highlights Houston’s defensive mindset, Denver’s expanded uses of Aaron Gordon, and OKC’s plug-and-play system.
  • “They all have their own identity ... Everyone knows what they’re supposed to do.” — Steve [18:25]
• Key Quote:
  • “If you want any kind of different basketball, you can find it just at the top of the Western Conference standings.” — Zach [17:55]

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3. Injury Report: Calf Strains, Soft-Tissue Watch

[20:37–26:21]

• Wave of Injuries: Wemby (2–3 weeks), Giannis (1–2 weeks, grade 1 groin), Ja Morant, etc.
• Bucks Concern:
  • Big on-off gap with Giannis, stretch without him will test team’s offensive identity.
  • “Their margin is not … nothing. Any prolonged time that Giannis misses is not nothing … I’m just watching, that’s all.” — Zach [23:15]
• League-Wide Soft Tissue Concern Debunked:
  • “Calf injuries are not up this season when compared to the last five seasons … It’s common to see a spike in … the first 20 games.” — Zach (quoting Jeff Stotts) [24:36]
• Takeaway:
  • Teams will exercise extreme caution with any “calf” injuries in light of the Halliburton hangover effect.

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4. Detroit Pistons: The NBA’s Hottest Team

[26:56–43:21]

• Pistons start 13–2 (2nd in defense, 13th in offense), thriving despite missing key rotation players.
• Identity & Edge:
  • “They play a very specific style of basketball and they believe … Cade’s been incredible.” — Steve [28:41]
  • Aggressive, physical defense (highest foul rate; turnover-forcing); dominate the paint on both ends.
  • “Their identity is: we’re physical as [hell] and we own the paint.” — Zach [31:56]
• Development Stories:
  • Cade Cunningham:
    • “You never know what you’re going to get with one of his drives … And I think his playmaking has grown.” — Steve [28:41]
    • 27 & 10 average, better handle on turnovers, facing blitzes/pressure regularly.
  • Jalen Duran:
    • “He’s averaging 21 and 12, shooting 68%... should be in the All-Star game right now the way he’s playing.” — Zach [29:34]
    • Defensive discipline and offensive craft much improved.
  • Dennis Jenkins Surprise:
    • “He’s a legit guy. A real rotation guy.” — Zach [27:51]
• Strategic Note:
  • Despite poor shooting lineups, they offset with defense and hustle; Stuart and Duran anchor the rim (“no-fly zone”).
• Playoff Readiness & Trade Debate:
  • Should Detroit make “the move” now if the East stays wide open?
    • “Let’s ride this until the wheels fall off and figure out in the playoffs if we are exposed or we need player X.” — Steve [40:23]
    • Zach: Only make a “big swing” (Lowry Markkanen, etc.) if it’s perfect, otherwise stick with the current group and explore minor upgrades.

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5. Insights to Mediocrity: Life Pro Tip

[44:13–46:48]

• Zach’s “Insight to Mediocrity”: Keep your ties perpetually knotted on the hanger—eliminates frustration, saves time.
  • “Who cares? Less of a man? I already can’t fix anything—that’s over ... It’s a perfect solution.” — Zach [44:41]

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6. Cleveland Cavaliers: Maddening Middle

[44:54–53:12]

• 10–5, but Garland and Strus mostly out; offense/defense statistically fine but “feels” disappointing.
• Biggest Issue:
  • “My mind is caught between the current state, the ceiling that we know exists, and the playoff questions that also exist.” — Steve [47:01]
  • Drives/paint attacks plummeted without Garland; offense too often “Save us, Donovan.”
• Mobley/Allen Conundrum:
  • Mobley getting more center minutes; questions about playoff viability, offense creation, and team size if Allen marginalized.
• Trade Watch:
  • Cavs have only distant picks to trade; second apron limits maneuverability, but Zach reminds listeners: “Just put it in the back of your head.” [53:12]

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7. League Quick-Hitters & Gripes

[54:02–70:27]

Anthony Edwards — Wolves’ New Point Guard

• Ant’s role as primary ball handler has increased, assists down but decisiveness/flow improved.
• “When he makes those quick decisions ... if you put two on the ball, I understand how to get to the roll real quick.” — Steve [55:21]
• “He’s just making the simple play and letting the offense run … a quiet potential for a [big] second half leap.” — Zach [61:56]

ESPN Box Score Redesign

• Both dislike (especially Zach) the new layout, especially minutes/rebounds rearrangement.
  • “Whoever did this ought to give a speech at Sloan … I fucking hate this.” — Zach [64:10]

City Edition Jerseys and Courts

• Zach’s Gripe: Announcers “shill” every jersey as the greatest ever; calls it ad overkill.
• Steve’s Gripe: Portland’s airport jerseys clash with the red court—“fix it.” [68:14]
• Praise for originals: Wolves’ Prince (highly rated), Jazz grayscale, Heat “Miami Vice,” etc.

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8. Heat, Tyler Herro’s Return, and Miami’s Offense

[64:54-66:32]

• Herro’s fit in a more motion-heavy, less pick-and-roll Miami system should be smooth.
  • “He should fit in well...he should be able to attack...They play with good pace and tempo, so...he knows he’ll get it back.” — Steve [65:19]

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Memorable Quotes

• “A Luka-LeBron pick and roll is just going to be a switch … Usually the defensive presence is going to be: ‘We have to live with this. Who’s gonna guard Reaves?’” — Steve [05:29]
• “You want to come in here? You’re either going to get hit or you’re going to get blocked … or you’re going to chicken out.” — Zach on the Pistons' paint defense [32:06]
• “You have all the guys, you have all the buy-in … If you make [a trade] and go backwards, what’s the cost this year, next year?” — Steve on trade patience for Detroit [40:23]
• “It’s Anthony Edwards. So we’ve seen him prove that he can defeat this in the playoffs. That’s why the Wolves made a run.” — Steve [56:31]
• “My biggest regret … they talked me into taking the over on Cleveland. I should have stuck with my guns.” — Zach [44:54]
• “Whoever did this to the ESPN box scores needs to give a speech at Sloan and we all get tomatoes to throw at you.” — Zach [64:10]

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Final Thoughts & Summary

• LeBron’s return offers hope for Lakers' offense, but defensive questions persist.
• Detroit Pistons are the league’s best story, blending youth, defense, and identity—finals run not out of the question with right move.
• Western Conference offers stylistic diversity at the top, proving NBA’s strategic variety is alive and well.
• Injuries remain a league-wide hurdle, but not anomalously so statistically.
• Cavaliers and Wolves both face fascinating strategic inflection points—each with a superstar exploring new roles.
• Gripe Zone: NBA culture, design, and coverage all get the classic Zach Lowe vent treatment—entertaining as ever.

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For More

• Follow Steve Jones Jr. on The Dunker Spot (Tuesdays and Fridays, Yahoo Sports).
• Zach Lowe continues twice weekly, all season.

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[End of Summary]

Transcript

[Zach Lowe]

This episode is brought to you by Prime Video. Hey, Zach Lowe here. The NBA on Prime is back this Friday with another great Emirates NBA cup doubleheader. The night starts with Pascal Siakam and the Indiana Pacers meeting Donovan Mitchell and the Cleveland Cavaliers. Then it's down to Texas as Nikola Jokic and the Denver Nuggets get their first look at Kevin Durant and the Houston Rockets. If you're not a Prime member, that's not a problem. Sign up for a free 30 day free trial to get started today. Pacers. Cavs. Nuggets. Rockets. Pacers. Cavs. Playoff rematch. Pacers. You know they'll be competitive even if they're injured. Cavs getting healthy, getting dominant. That offense is super explosive. Nuggets, Rockets. Holy cow. The physicality. Jokic Sengun. Stephen Adams. Jokic throwing bullets all over the floor. Kevin Durant. Great stuff. Coverage starts Friday at 6:30pm Eastern only on Prime. Restrictions apply. See Amazon.com amazonprime for details. Coming up on a Wednesday edition of the Zach Lowe show, we've got Steve Jones Jr. From the Dunker spot in the house. One of the guys, I always say the you want to know what? If you want to know what happened in the game, if you care about the actual basketball strategy, this is your guy. And we're going to talk about a whole lot of stuff. The Detroit Pistons, 11 in a row. What are they doing well? What are they not doing well? Should Jalen Duran be an all star? We're going to talk about that. LeBron, finally we get LeBron with Luca and Reeves again this season and the Lakers, they win. They beat the jazz. How did LeBron look? What did we see, what was encouraging, what was not so encouraging? And then we're going to bounce around the league. Point ant is in Minnesota. Anthony Edwards basically functioning as full time point guard now. How's that working? What do we see? What does the film see? Tyler Herro. How is he going to fit into the heats? Offense? We got some gripes. We got a Steve and I get some gripes off of our chest. We talk about injuries and all these calf injuries. Wemby's out, Giannis is out. What does that mean for the Bucks? All of it is. Is there really a spike in calf injuries? We talked a little bit about that, which is all over the league with Steve Jones Jr. From the Dunker spot. He's the best. We get into a lot of stuff. Hope you enjoy it. You're listening to the Zach Lowe show, presented by FanDuel. FanDuel. Now displays your bets directly on your phone's lock screen and with the latest updates to the live events and player pages, it's never been easier to be part of the game. And Missouri get excited because FanDuel is coming your way as of December 1st. Download the FanDuel sportsbook app now and play your game 20 or over. Present in select states or 18 and over. President DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com, call 1-888-78-9777 or visit ccpg.org chatincenetic. Welcome to the Zach Lowe Show. It's Wednesday morning and LeBron James made his debut for the Lakers in 20252026 last night. LeBron still plays for the Lakers and sciatica kicked it. He's ready to play. The Detroit Pistons won their 11th 11th straight NBA basketball game. Detroit basketball is all the way back. We got a lot to talk about. Steve Jones Jr. 1/2 of the Dunker Spot podcast a must listen. He and Nikaius Duncan if you want to know what's going on in the NBA and the wnba. There you guys. Steve Jones. How you doing?

[Steve Jones Jr.]

I'm good. Happy to be here. Excited to be here. Ready to talk some hoops man.

[Zach Lowe]

All right, we got to start with Lebron. You know why? Because he's the all time leading scorer and at worst the second best player of all time and he plays for the Lakers and he came back and played his first game last night so we got to start with him. 11 points, 12 assists including a fourth quarter just dime up. Frenzy of no look passes and pick and roll play. The Lakers beat the Jazz who just the Jazz just either score or give up 140 points in every game. One of the one of two or both. And they started the Laker. Everyone was curious would they start the lineup that we all sort of expected or would they work Marcus Smart in who would come off the bench. They start Reaves, Luka, Lebron, Rui Ayton dominating. What's your first impressions of both LeBron and the Lakers? With LeBron having already now seen Lucas Luka MVP candidate but Reaves has ascended to a different stature in the first three weeks of the season. So what's your first impressions?

[Steve Jones Jr.]

I think the last two things that you said are what made it fun to watch that because you have what Luca does and you have the growth of Austin Reaves and you have JJ Redick trying to get them to play with championship habits. So instead of it being the course of, hey, we're going to try and make some changes. LeBron has to do too much and oh, no, what do we do? We've got a little bit more of a stronger base and now LeBron can kind of come in. I think you saw him play in the flow a lot more. It's always odd to me to see the plays where Luka gets a pick and roll and the defense helps and to kick out to LeBron who's driving a closeout, and vice versa. Like, they ran a great play to start the second half where it was LeBron on one side, a flair on the other side, got a violation, didn't count.

[Zach Lowe]

The play was even, even more detailed than that. And I think it's very important you highlighted it. I did too, is the first play of the second half. So, you know, that's one the coaches have. Psych. We got to go to this. Let's get this flowing. It was a LeBron Reeves pick and roll on the right side designed to get a small guy switched under LeBron. They got it. LeBron went into the post and at the same time, Luka ran off a flare screen on the other side From Ayton and LeBron kicked it there and there was a foul. But that's the kind of play, the three man synergy between those guys, that's what we're looking for. Right. That's why that play stood out to you, I bet.

[Steve Jones Jr.]

Absolutely. And I think it's just finding a way to work them in together. I thought one thing they did a good job of was using Austin Reaves as a cross screener for Luca and LeBron. Obviously, we know LeBron's going to attack matchups, and so he was looking at Keonte George all night, but Austin Reeves being able to get to it a little more randomly at times. You know, I think there was a play LeBron caught at the top. Swing it, swing it to Luca. Austin Reeves comes from the corners at the back Pick, Utah switches. LeBron gets in the middle of four. Doing those kind of things, I think is where you kind of can feel the weight and finding ways to use them together. Because a Luca LeBron pick and roll is just going to be a switch. And usually the defensive presence is going to be okay. We have to live with this. Who's going to guard Reaves? Can that be the matchup? Even when Marcus Smart comes in the game, you could use him as a screener, depending on who's guarding him. And then obviously with deandre Ayton, if there's A big in there, I think. I think he's going to. LeBron's would be good for Deandre Ayton, especially if he's in the post and teams are trying to work to double and he can kind of flash or be the dunker spot. So just kind of figure out the synergy is going to be important for them.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, he started slow. LeBron did. I think he only had taken one shot 14 minutes into the game and it was a three, hadn't scored yet. And there was not as much of that sort of three man synergy or two man synergy early as I thought there was going to be. But then you remember it. Sky hasn't played in a long time with the Lakers and he's feeling his way back into the game and you could see him being deferential in a way that is rare for him. Like just hit ahead, get off of it early. And then the longer the game went, the more he started to pick his spots. We saw a lot of that two man game between he and Reeves and they would post LeBron and he didn't even have to like work so hard against the mismatches. There was one where he basically posted up at the three point line and they loaded to him so aggressively that he just flicked it to Ayton. I think for a little floater. He got eight in another lob. At some point he got Marcus Smart, a layup out, all that a post op stuff. Then he had another play in the second quarter and this is when he started to rev up. I think it was even after a make. Luka quickly inbounded to LeBron on the right side and LeBron saw. I got a Runway in front of me. No one's in front of me. Okay, full blast. First full blast we've seen in a while. Drives it super hard. Cody Williams is backpedaling like, okay, I'm not. I don't want any part of this is. I don't know what happened to me. I'm Cody Williams. I've suddenly got to deal with this freight train. And he kicked to Laravia in the left corner from the paint for, for a three. And you started to get that rolling. And then you highlighted the other play where Reeves set a back screen for him in the paint, got Keante George switched onto him and he just put Keante George in the basket. Either Drew, I think he, he scored and shouted for an in one that he didn't get. I just thought it was offensively as good as you could have hoped for. For The Lakers, after sort of a slow feeling out starting, they began to lean into some of the stuff that if this is going to work, this is how it's going to work. He had a run of pick and roll play in the fourth quarter where he created three straight buckets. One one for him, two for other guys. I know, I think three. I think it was one for Vincent on a three and a layup for Ayton and then something Jackson Hayes got a dunk and it was like, all right, this is. And that this is. And that was with Luca off the floor. And they leaned into that. I love that they've. They've already settled into that rotation of Luka gets his alone minutes and when Luka's on the bench, it's LeBron and Reeves together. I think that's the smart way to do it. That's the way they did it last year. Offensively, I think A plus everything they could have wanted. Defensively, I will say that starting five looks slow and, and as other people have noted, it's basically Reeves kind of undersized dish guard who struggles sometimes on defense. Three power forward types in terms of who they, what types of players they're best to guard in LeBron, Luka and Rui and a pretty traditional center in Ayton. And you could see the speed of even like sfima High. Luke flying around the floor was too fast for them. I'm just tabling it. I don't even know what I would do if I were J.J. redick and I gotta get. I want to give this group more time, but that did stand out to me. What did you think of them defensively?

[Steve Jones Jr.]

Well, I think for the Lakers they don't want to put two on the ball if they can avoid it. Utah is not a great matchup for them in the sense that they're going to fly around and move the ball and move their bodies and so you saw the Lakers get dinged on switches and Laurie Markkin and sliding into the lane. I think for them they just got to get to a comfort level of contain contest and just live with the results. Those nights where they can't keep the ball in front, the nights where they can't get back in transition, it's going to happen, but they've got to get to a point where they can just be decisive defensively. I think their worst moments are when they're not decisive on the defensive end and not communicate, not switching. I think that's why Marcus Smart's really important. Just because he can guard a Lot of people. And they're gonna have to find a way to just be comfortable with communicating and switching. Because with this Rui Luca and LeBron, who's on the weak side, who's helping? When is Deandre Ayton gonna help? What's he doing in pick and roll if there's questions and they can't just settle on switching like they did last year?

[Zach Lowe]

I thought LeBron looked, you know, a little lurchy sometimes on defense, closing out on guys. But he was talking, he was scram switching. Like when you saw a mismatch in the post, he'd come out and grab people. He was doing all the stuff you would on defense you would hope for on defense. And if he does look a little lurchy closing out on like KEONTE George, who's 20 years younger than he is, basically, you do have to remember he's almost 41, coming off sciatica. So yeah, he looked a little lurchy. It's all right. I just don't really know. Everyone is always over focused on the starting five. The starting five, even if you keep it the same, you can change the rotate. You can. We saw, we saw that lineup with Smart in place of Rui in certain points of the game, you can lean on that lineup more. We saw Gabe Vincent come back last night. We saw no Jared Vanderbilt who's kind of getting marginalized again from the rotation. But you can keep that starting five and minimize its minutes together if it becomes a problem. Defensively, I just don't love any of the answers. Like the easy answer is Rui, right? You've got to bring Rui off the bench because Reaves is just too good. Now, obviously it's not luka, it's not LeBron. It's not going to be the only, you know, starting caliber center on the team. I just don't really love any Lakers answer. Where Les Rui is the answer. Rui has been everything they could have hoped he would be. He's averaging 15 a game, shooting 57, 48 on threes, pretty solid defensively. I just don't love. I just don't love that. That's the only answer really to the starting five riddle. He's just been too good.

[Steve Jones Jr.]

I think you got to keep him in there and then you can close with whoever you'd like, depending on the matchup. But I think you keep him rolling. Offensively, I think he's found his sweet spot. And then defensively, I think for them it's just about help defense. I think if Luka can rotate And Austin Reese can show help and they don't get beat on the second closeout. They can usually live with the result. But I don't know if you start Marcus Smart, I think you keep him in the rotation. I think I like that lineup with him and Reeves and Luka and LeBron and Aiden, but I don't know if you have to start it.

[Zach Lowe]

Also no connect last night who had been in the rotation. No Brawny who had been in and out of the rotation. So JJ's got his full complement now for the first time all season. We're going to see how he uses it. I just thought, you know, couldn't have gone any better offensively really. The lakers are now 11 and 4. They are fourth in the West. They've only played six home games, nine road games a game behind both Houston and Denver in the lost column. And The Thunder are 14 and one and never lose. You know, ever since Rich Paul put out the passive aggressive statement over the summer about, you know, it's hard to win now and plan for the future at the same time and we all want what's best for the big guy. There's been this sort of search for what's going to happen next for LeBron, whether this is this Los Angeles is the final chapter of his career or if he continues playing after this year, there's another place for him. And the presumption has been, well, if there is another place for him, it's going to be a mix of sentimentality and winning, wherever that is. Right. Cleveland would be the most obvious sort of sentimental plus winning example. And he can go anywhere. If he wants to sign for the minimum. He'd go to Oklahoma City for the minimum. I don't see that ever happening. But he could, he could get to a better team if he's willing to sign for any amount of money because he could literally sign anywhere. He could sign who they were was a championship. But I do look at this Lakers team, I'm like, I'm not. If he, if he wants to get paid, even like a mid level exception or some commensurate salary, I'm not sure how many places are going to be better than this. Like this is a good team. Its biggest disadvantage, and stop me if you've heard this before, is they play in the wrong conference with a young juggernaut in Oklahoma City and, and Denver, who has been about Oklahoma City's peer in almost every measure so far this year. I still like. How far do you think the Lakers can get this year?

[Steve Jones Jr.]

I think the biggest thing is them getting off to a hot start is very important. I think they have to get top four to give themselves a chance, get to that second round and then let's see where we're at. I think the problem for me with the Lakers has always been, okay, they have the pieces, they might be able to make a run in the playoffs. They're down in the standings and they're fighting from up above. So I think if they give themselves a shot in the standings, you can stick with OKC and Denver and Houston. Okay, let's play ball. Let's have the five seed and let's see what we can do against the Thunder. Because eventually you're going to have to beat the Thunder. You can't win the Western Conference unless you beat Thunder. That's just facts. So they need to stick around the top for them to be able to hit their ceiling.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, I mean, I guess there's a world where you can imagine a scenario where the Lakers have always done okay against the Thunder. They, they, they like their size and bullying style of play against them. I, I frankly think the Thunder have advanced past any sort of level of being intimidated or, or whatever by that style. But just imagine a world where like the Thunder get into the playoffs, get into the second round against the Lakers. If the Lakers advance past like Wemby in the first round or Anthony Edwards in the first round or whatever horrible matchup is waiting for them and maybe somebody on the Thunder tweaks an ankle, they get a little like, you know, the moment gets big and the Thunder, even though they just won the championship, it's Los Angeles Lakers do Lakers things. They get a big free throw advantage because they always seem to get a big free throw advantage. They've somehow squeaked that series out in seven games. And then maybe like Houston upsets Denver in the second round and so you don't have to go through both Denver and Oklahoma City. And it's just a lot of it. Like I've always said, I think the Lakers could compete in any playoff series in the Western Conference. Like even against the Thunder. I think they could compet competitive. They have been somewhat competitive in, in series in which the final game score is not competitive against Denver. But I. Winning three in the west just feels like too much of a stretch for me when one of the best players is 41 years old. I, I still don't see. Do you like, can they make the Finals? Is that what, is that what you're saying? They could make the Finals? I, I would just Bet heavily. I just don't, I don't know. I don't see it.

[Steve Jones Jr.]

The Western Conference is hard and I think they would need some assistance. That scenario you laid out is probably the one for me. I don't know if they want to face OKC and Denver so I, I could see a Western Conference finals run. I'll put it that way.

[Zach Lowe]

Speaking of the west, one thing you and I wanted to talk about. I meant to talk about it on Monday when I talked about Oklahoma City and Denver and just how awesome they've been so far. And then I sort of apologize to the Rockets fans, like, we'll get to you. You know, there's been a lot of bellyaching over the last few years about stylistic homogeneity in the NBA. Everybody plays the same way. It's just spread, pick and roll. And at times I do think there has been some truth to that. Right, like spread, pick and roll, drive kick. Everybody wants threes, everybody wants rim. And there's always been exceptions. But man, you look at those top three teams in the west right now, they could not be any different in terms of how they play and what kind of shots they're trying to get. Oklahoma City is this just frenzied, turnover producing defensive juggernaut who is so much better defensively than anybody right now that it's a joke. And they have this mid range assassin at the as the head of the snake. Denver has just literally a unicorn all time player. Just, just. We've never seen anybody like this before. They are last in the league in drives for the second straight year. They, they don't shoot threes and yet they just bludgeon everybody on offense. Houston is trying to I guess be the first team to chase a championship where at least 50% of its offensive philosophy is missing a shot and just getting a rebound on their own misses and beating the hell out of everybody and being giant. And Reed Shepherd's coming along too, but like just three completely different animals at the top of the W. Like if you want, if you want any kind of different basketball, you can find it just at the top of the Western Conference standings.

[Steve Jones Jr.]

Yeah, they all have their own identity. I mean, the Thunder, we know what they do defensively, but I think offensively, I don't know if they get enough credit for the plug and playability up and down the roster everyone knows they're supposed to do. They move the ball side to side, they keep pressure on you. And Shea is just continuing to add layers. So I mean, he's going to Drive to the rim. As they get to the mid range, he's going to draw some fouls, adding some pull up threes. So they're hard to deal with because they're unpredictable offensively and they have more of a comfort and confidence on that end. Denver, in my end, they're just so connected to me right now on both ends of the floor. Offensively empowering Aaron Gordon, you know, we've talked about Jokic and Gordon and Jamal Murray and the threat of those three in action together. Now Aaron Gordon's real life threat, it's not just dunker spot, like he's just going to be in pick and roll. He's going to get a flair for a three. He's going to attack early in the clock. Jokic, you don't necessarily know when he's going to score. I don't think I've ever seen him happier on the basketball court as far as just, okay, I initiate, I get a screen, I'm going right to work.

[Zach Lowe]

There's no, you know when I know he's going to score when he, when he shoots because he makes every single shot he has.

[Steve Jones Jr.]

He's been on a heater, but I mean it's just, it's. You can't double him. And then defensively I think people are trying to figure out, okay, how are they doing this defensively they're connected like they are trying different things. David Adams got them. You know, hey, we might switch, we might drop. Yokich guarding on wing, we'll throw zone out there. So they're just figuring things out on both ends. And I think Houston, stylistically, I love a defensive first team. Let's slow the pace down. Team KD has had an impact as far as being the guy who, okay, maybe this didn't work out to the best of our abilities. For the first 18 seconds I can get a shot. Defense is going to show help. I can make whatever shot I need to make. Alperence Shingoon and his drives have been really important for them. I think he's been a lot better. Amin Thompson obviously getting downhill and the defense he brings the Reed shepherd has impressed me. I think he's on the right track. So I've liked seeing his confidence grow, especially in pick and roll. As far as understanding I have a shot here, I have a pass here, I don't have to force it. And so I'm intrigued to see can they find the right tempo, but you know what they're going to do every single night. And they believe in their identity and So I think that's what separates them for me in the Western Conference is you know, what to expect every single night they're going to compete and they're hard to beat.

[Zach Lowe]

Just three really fun teams to watch in completely different ways. All right, before we get to the red hot Detroit Pistons, we got to talk about some injury news. There's a whole bunch of injuries. Wemby is out two to three weeks with a calf strain. Stefan Castle's already out, Dylan Harper's already out, Anthony Davis remains out, and the big one, John Morant is also out with a calf strain. It's like the way he's playing. I don't know if that's good or bad for Memphis at this point and, or I don't know if it, I don't even know what's good for Memphis. 4 and 11. I had my, On Monday, Steve, I talked about the five team disaster zone in the Western Conference. Just, I can't remember any moment where so many teams ostensibly designed to win basketball games are not only losing them, but losing them in such catastrophically bad ways with such potentially catastrophic draft pick consequences. One of them already made a catastrophic franchise. Destructing, destroying, destructing, destroying trade in the luca. It's just unbelievable. And Memphis is one of them. Might as well just tank now. I guess. The big one though is Giannis, who is sigh of relief on the one hand only out one to two weeks, it appears with a grade one groin strain. One to two weeks ain't much. It could be five games, it could be seven games. The Bucks have quietly slipped to eight and seven. They're in this jumble of teams. There are, there are five teams in the east who are either 8 and 6, 7 and 6 or 8 and 7. They are for the season, plus 7 per 100 possessions with Giannis on the floor and minus 12 per 100 possessions with Giannis on the floor. That is a gargantuan 19 point gap. Their next seven games don't sound too bad, but, but you know what's Philly, Detroit, Portland, Miami, New York, Brooklyn and Washington better win those two games. I don't care who else is. Hurry, better win those games. And Detroit again, that's the heat. That Knicks and the Sixers are sort of in their area of the standings right now. And look, the Bucs margin is not the buck. I mean, the Bucs are in the lottery right now. I, I, I think, you know, the, they're also like a game out of third, so, you know, I wouldn't, it's not Nothing, any, any, any prolonged time that Giannis misses is not nothing. And it decreases their margin to take A, another injury and B, another Giannis two week injury down the line. I'm, I'm very interested to see, I think they're 1 and 1 without him so far this year. 1 and 2. If you include the game where he got hurt and played only 13 minutes. I'm very interested to see if they can, if, let's say it's those seven games, can they scratch out three and four or even four and three since two of them are against Brooklyn and Washington. If, if either of those scenarios I think is a W for the Bucks or is this a 1 in 6 oh scenario. I'm just, I'm just, I'm watching, that's all.

[Steve Jones Jr.]

I mean, I think they gotta go, they gotta try goes back and forth as they can with it because there's a chance where they can kind of make up some ground. Maybe you catch a Philly, maybe you catch a Detroit, you catch Portland, use your home court advantage and hope you can get the best out of it. This is probably why they've tried to play in a different way as far as having a little bit more high pace, maybe you get Miles Turner more involved offensively. We've seen Kyle Kuzma do some positive things this year. Ryan Rollins has been a relevation and so you kind of, you have a style of play that you can lean on. Offensively, you will have to play much better defense than you have displayed recently if you want to have sustained success during the stretch. And those are some tricky matchups. Like Philadelphia is going to drive that basketball, Detroit's very good, Miami's going to drive that basketball. So I think this is a chance for them to kind of lean in a little bit defensively, keep their offensive pace and see if we can scratch out four.

[Zach Lowe]

That would be four and three would be a home run. And honestly, him, he's just, Giannis is. Sometimes you wonder if he's indestructible. He has these falls and these injuries that look so bad and he was holding his groin throughout that entire second quarter. You can see he wasn't right then. It's like one to two weeks. He'll be, he'll be back pretty soon. I, I, I haven't loved, I haven't looked up the numbers. I haven't loved the combination of Portis and Turner together at the 4 and the 5 just because I feel like there's no, there's no like oomph, there's no force on offense. No one is going north. It's all on the guards at that point to go north south, which Rollins has been been up for it, but we'll see. It does feel like there have been a million calf and hamstring injuries to start the season. Apparently there have not. Jeff Stotts in street clothes on Twitter, the preeminent NBA injury expert slash tracker tweeted yesterday and I talked to him on the phone about this. The latest updates on Wemby and AD Calf injuries got me curious to start. Calf injuries are not up this season when compared to the last five seasons. Not up. It's common to see a spike in soft tissue injuries during the preseason and first 20 games of the year. Okay, I thought that was interesting. I will say talking anecdotally to team health personnel, the Halliburton injury hangover effect is going to make teams justifiably very, very cautious in terms of extending rest timetables for guys with calf injuries fearing a catastrophic injury if they come back too soon. I think we're seeing that in Dallas with all the rumblings that Patrick Dumont now wants final say in when Anthony Davis comes back. I thought that was interesting. Any other injury thoughts or should we move on to happier things?

[Steve Jones Jr.]

We can move on to happier things, but I it's I think you are correct that the Halliburton deal if you see the word calf, I imagine teams are just going to shut people down as soon as they can and make sure they get back right.

[Zach Lowe]

This episode is brought to you by Salty Cheesy Cheez It Crackers. Should this whole podcast just be me eating Cheez It? That would be a top notch podcast. You could hear them crunching in my mouth. You could think about how salty and savory and delicious they are. You can just get Cheez it on the brain. Oh man, those Cheez it cravings. They get you. Anyway, what was I talking about?

[Steve Jones Jr.]

Oh yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

Oh, Cheez It. Yeah, Cheez It Crackers. Go check them out. Toast the holidays in a new way and raise a glass of Rumchata, a delicious creamy blend of horchata with rum. Enjoy it over ice or in your coffee. Rumchata. Your holiday cocktails just got sweeter. Tap or click the banner for more Drink Responsibly Caribbean rum with real dairy cream, natural and artificial flavors. Alcohol 13.75% by volume 27.5 proof. Copyright 2025 Agave Loco Brands, Pojoaquee, WI. All rights reserved. The Detroit Pistons are 13 and 2. Steve Jones Jr. 13 and 2, they are 13th in offense, second in defense and flying three games ahead of everyone in the Eastern Conference. Boy, is this getting interesting. Where would you like to start with? What is happening with the Detroit Pistons who by the way, Jaden Ivey hasn't played the whole season. Tobias Harris hasn't played in quite a while. They're playing as a result. Marcus Sasser hasn't played the whole season. They're playing lineups that have four non shooters at times and still making it work. Cade is missed recent games. It doesn't matter because Dennis Jenkins is on the team and is unbelievable. What a story. Dennis Jenkins is so crafty on offense, can score, can pace throwing these underhand lefty lobs all over the place like a pretty solid perimeter defender. He's like, he's a legit guy. He's a real rotation guy. Played started alongside Cade last night in their win against the Hawks. You kick us off. Where do you want to start with these guys?

[Steve Jones Jr.]

I mean I'd love to. For me it's Cade Cunningham and the way that he's driven the ship. I think he ties into their identity. They play a very specific style of basketball and they believe and so sometimes when you have a regular season run like this early in a year, a team gets buy in, a team gets wins, they add belief and now you have more success. But Cade's been incredible I think as far as his ability to score the basketball, you know, play at his own pace can be said too much but you never know what you're going to get with one of his drives. It looks like he's not moving and he's straight line in the paint finishing Tifa and I think his playmaking has grown as far as teams showing more double teams putting two on the ball and him being able to make the right reads and that kind of opening things up for Detroit in the half court at times. Jalen Durin has been really good with him as well. That growth was something I didn't expect. So I have to apologize to the Jalen Duran I yelled at for dribble handoffs that were not my very fun for me but his ability.

[Zach Lowe]

I didn't know, I didn't know you were a jail endurance skeptic. I've been to jail enduring like he's been my white whale in the NBA. I bet I've been like if waiting for this because you could see glimpses of it and I've always been optimistic but this is, this is outrageous. He's averaging 21 points and 12 rebounds a game. He's shooting 68%. He's holding opponents to a very good field goal percentage at the rim. He's tidied up his defense, his face up game is so much more under control. Like he had Isaiah Jackson on him the other night against Indiana and he was like, you're just too small. I'm going to go through you, but I'm going to do it carefully and I'm going to do it without getting out of control. Mo Gay last night he was like, just get, just this is insulting to me. I'm just going to bully ball you to the rim. And he's slowing down when traffic comes and, and like taking an extra dribble and glance around the floor. Turnovers are down for him. Fouls are down for him. Turnovers down for Cade. Jalen Duran should be in the all star game right now, the way he's playing.

[Steve Jones Jr.]

I, I agree, I agree and I, I like the rotations he's made defensively around the baseline. The short roll game as you mentioned has been much improved. So it's not necessarily I'm just going to get a lob. No, I'm gonna catch, I can make a pass and I can also hit you first and score. So that's been fun. One thing you mentioned, the non shooting aspect for Detroit, it was funny because last year I felt like they were fun. They tried to have a blend of like playmaking and shooting and spacing. And this year, well, we don't have some of these guys. So we're just going to play defense. We're just gonna put defenders out there. Ron Holland, Sar Thompson, everyone just go ahead and get after it.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah. Tim Hardaway, gone. Malik Beasley, gone.

[Steve Jones Jr.]

So we're going to lean into that a little bit more. We're going to have that activity. And so even when the moments where it felt like almost everyone was out, everyone knew how they were supposed to play on that end of the floor and they competed. And I think compete level is just so important in today's NBA. You bring it, you give yourself a chance. So I've just enjoyed them kind of piecing it all together and figuring out different ways to win and staying consistent. You know, there's still question marks for me, but I mean it's fun to watch kind of JB bicker stuff like Duncan Robinson run around off screens like, you're our shooter. Fly around, buddy.

[Zach Lowe]

You are, you are the shooter. You are the only one right now, buddy, like keep on moving.

[Steve Jones Jr.]

But yeah, I just, I just love the way they compete. And I'm intrigued to see how the league handles them now that they've kind of sustained a little bit of success and what that pushback looks like.

[Zach Lowe]

You know who else is shooting pretty well? Beef stew, 39 on threes has been starting at the 4 a little bit with Tobias Harris hurt. And that's put Paul Reed in the rotation and Paul Reed's been fine. And I just like you, you said the word identity. This team has a pretty clear one. And the identity is we're physical as and we own the paint. So here are some numbers that would back that up. They have the second highest foul rate on defense in the NBA, so they're going to beat you up and they're okay with that. You know why? Because they have the number one turnover rate in the NBA. So a lot of the times we reach we're going to hit your arm and a lot of the other times we're going to get the ball or jar the ball loose. They allow very few shots at the rim and the third lowest field goal percentage at the rim. Both Stewart and Duran have been especially. Stewart is blocking everything. The rim is a no fly zone. You want to come in here, you're either going to get hit or you're going to get blocked one or you're going to chicken out and throw the ball the other way. On offense, they are 8th in free throw rate, so at least they get to the line quite a bit. Physical play, right? They are second in frequency of shots at the rim, so they get to the rim a ton on offense and third in offensive rebounding. So they're beating the crap out of you on the glass. Not only 21st in defensive rebounding is the only sort of weakness in their paint protection game, but they know exactly who they are. I also think they play very unselfishly and this Jenkins thing, it, it looks like a pretty real thing to me. Like I don't know if he's going to be putting up 20, 20 a game all the time, but he's up to 12 a game. His, his. He's a good passer, he's a good defender. He's already shown he can play with Cade. I think they found another guy who, if Ivy still hurt Caris Levert, missed a game last night. You know, if Duncan Robinson is a defensive liability in the wrong matchup, this is, this is a real guy that. I don't know what you've noticed from him, but the first couple times I saw him in the box score, I was like oh, okay, that's interesting. And I started watching like, oh, oh, well this is like real confidence.

[Steve Jones Jr.]

Juice gets after it, you know, there's not a shot he doesn't mind. But he also, as you said, is willing to keep the ball moving, understands how to cut and get out of the way and space and I think that's important. Next two, Cade. And so him being able to be a consistent presence within what Detroit does, I think is really important. I think the more guard play they can get, the better off they'll be. And JB being able to trust him on both ends says a lot.

[Zach Lowe]

You mentioned Cade. Still kind of a polarizing player. Like you surf Twitter sometimes and you'll get like the decade is overrated. You know, Detroit's a defense first team. Is he really driving that? You know, blah blah, blah. Let me find the stats. I wrote them down here somewhere. 27 and 10. It's pretty, pretty goddamn good. 44 shooting. Okay. 28% on threes, 51% on twos. He's gotten his turnovers under control, which is big. I bring this all up. I'm curious what you think of this. I was looking this up because of Anthony Edwards mostly who we're going to talk about. But, but I. There's a Cade thing here too. If you look at all the medium to high volume pick and roll ball handlers in the league, Luca has been blitzed the most by defenses. So two on the ball, 18% of pick and rolls. Luke has been blitzed. Anthony Edwards is second at 17% which we're going to talk about. And Cade is third at 16%. And that intuitively makes sense when you think about teams. Look at the Pistons like well this guy is, that is like not. Is not the only threat on the team but is so far and away the biggest threat on the team. And he's often surrounded by so little shooting that you guys go ahead and ping the ball around between all your guys who can't shoot threes. We'll cover the paint and, and we'll force you into a bad shot. We'll make other guys beat us who aren't Cade and we'll try to make those other guys be Ron Holland from three, Javante Green from three, whoever non threatening three point shooter we can find. But often that's not been the case. Often it's been like Jaylen Duran dunking all over planet earth. Like if you don't, if you're the help defender and you don't hit Duran at the foul line, he is going to Dunk like it's too late. If he's in the paint, he is dunking you through the freaking floor. It's been Asar Thompson in the dunker spot taking a pass from Jalen Duran. It's been a better shot than teams think they're going to end up giving up when they trap Cade because of all the bad shooting around him. And I wonder when you hear that stat, like I've been watching the Pistons and thinking, I wonder when the, when some team is just going to start going under screens on him and daring him to shoot threes and playing a softer coverage against him. Obviously you have to mix up coverages against great teams teams and Detroit is a very good team. I, I think I, I wonder if the league is playing him too aggressively and it's almost playing into the Pistons hands in a way that defenses haven't expected.

[Steve Jones Jr.]

I think it's a fair point. It's always the balancing act when you decide we're going to put two on the ball. You are opening up a play, you are opening up an advantage. And so for a Detroit team that may not have the shooting, they still have the ability to force you to help on a roll, to get cuts out of it, to get the shots they want. And Jalen Durin's growth is important. Cade being able to make the right reads is important. And so them nailing that portion consistently makes it more untenable to live with. I'm thinking and wondering, okay, what happens when teams decide, okay, we're going to switch? Does Cade now have to win certain matchups? Does that now become a switch and double scenario? Like, what's the response going to be if they go under? Do we just get a re screen now? We get we want anyways.

[Zach Lowe]

Sure. There's counters to everything, right?

[Steve Jones Jr.]

So it's just one of those deals where I think it's a fair point to wonder if teams have said have opened up too much for Detroit, especially for a team that at times you could wonder, hey, can they generate what they want in the half court consistently? But I do think Cade's play has warranted at least a certain level of attention. I think that's kind of the hand in hand deal. When you're a young guard, you play so well, hey, we can't, it can't be you. And I think if, if Duran had taken a step back or hadn't, hadn't done some of these things consistently, you might feel better about showing help and forcing a skip pass and being able to recover. But them having Both of those guys going at the same time makes it real tough.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah. And if you play a drop back coverage against him, he is very, I've always been very bullish on Kaden. He is very good at being sort of Luca light of just. I'm going to get in the paint with a live dribble. I can make floaters. I'm going to keep you guessing on defense in this sort of 8 foot from the rim, 12 foot from the rim zone that is, is a dead zone for smaller players or less intuitive players. But for me is a place where I've got the whole game at my fingertips. Everything's alive for me and he's got counters for that. I just, I, it's. So maybe, maybe I'm off point here. I just, I remember him passing up threes in the playoffs against the Knicks sometimes like when guys would go under. I just. The trapping him. Detroit is, is profiting well enough off of that. I guess they're only 13th in offense, so I guess, I guess keep, keep doing that. I'm just, I want to see a team mix it up a little bit more against him. But to your point, they're also just a very unselfish team. They play really hard. They play very unselfishly. They have been really a joy to watch. And so the, the big follow up question that I'm sure the Pistons are starting to think about is do you read this start Steve Jones, if you're the Gen, if you're Trajan Langdon and Tom Gores, you can read this one of two ways and not only your hot start, but the fact that the Cavs, who we're going to get to look good but not great, the Knicks look good but not great. No one is frightening you right now in the East. Do you look at all of that and conclude we don't have to do anything. We can keep our powder dry for a move next year or two years from now because we might be able to like get to the finals this year. Just make the Indiana Run 2.0. Or do you look at this start and say we're ahead of schedule. We probably still don't have enough shooting, but the time is now. What's. What's Danny Ainge and Austin Ainge phone number in Utah. Let's try to get the Lowry market and trade discussion started. Which of those would you err on?

[Steve Jones Jr.]

I would probably err on the side of let's see what this is fully. Let's see if we don't have. If, if we're missing this specific piece if we need to go big or maybe it's make a small move and try and add some shooting and get the balance back that you had closer to last year. But I don't know if you have to take the big swing yet. I, I. You have enough success, you have an identity, you have all the guys you have bought in. So if you make that swing and you go backwards, what's the cost this year, next year? How are you going to rebuild the roster around it? I would say, I would, I would say let's, let's ride this until the wheels fall off and let's figure out in the playoffs if we are exposed or we need player X. It's kind of how I felt about okc. Like when everyone was like, hey, go get a big. I was like, oh, let's see what they can do. And then they went out and got.

[Zach Lowe]

A big so and they, and they made the Giddy. The Giddy trade that everyone was sort of waiting for after Giddy was slightly to. Well, no. Giddy was kind of exposed as a guy who wasn't ready for the playoff stage the way they needed him to be ready for the playoff stage. I get it. We haven't seen Ivy yet. Ivy hit 40 something percent on catch and shoot threes last year before he got injured. That's a massively important thing for anyone playing alongside Cade. I want to see that first before I do anything. But I do think in the playoffs the lack of shooting is going to be a bigger detriment than it is in the regular season and that Markkanen is just a perfect player for them. Perfect. And if you can get him for Tobias, like you're swapping the Tobias Harris minutes for the Lowry market in minutes. And Tobias Harris has been rock solid for them. He's been a great culture guy for them and I think that kind of stuff, like his veteran leadership and his toughness would make them pause a little bit. But if I can get Tobias Harris, if I Ivy's going to be the prize for Utah, right? Although Keonte George has played so well that maybe this doesn't make sense for them. I don't know. I'm just thinking out loud. And if I'm Detroit, I have this Jenkins thing happening where I feel a little bit more comfortable letting Ivy go and I got to throw in a pile of picks. Do I have to throw in Holland? Maybe it ends up swinging there. We'll see how things look in two months. My read now is more towards the strike while the iron is hot. If that's the upgrade, that may make us a real threat to make the finals. And if people talk about making the finals, when you get there, you have to beat the other team and the other team is going to be goddamn good coming out of. And marketing fits the timetable. Like I'm not, I'm saying marketing specifically. I'm not just saying take a swing for anybody and everybody because if it's not him, then I think you're right. You go, you try to find a smaller move. Can we search around and find someone to replicate a little bit of what Beasley gave us last year? What does Lavert look like with as he gets more comfortable in our system? Whatever it is. But I'm saying marketing specifically because I think he's that ideal for how they play and what they need. And if, if Utah says no, we need we, there's no deal, then I'm fine going your way.

[Steve Jones Jr.]

I was about to say, I wonder what the price is with how Larry Markin has played to start this year.

[Zach Lowe]

I mean he, he's averaging like 30 a game. The price is going to be everything. It's going to be Harris, Ivey, Holland, every pick and swap you have. If you want to keep a Sar Thompson, which you do. If you want to keep Jalen Duran, which you're goddamn right you do. And the Jazz have Kessler's free agency coming to and they have Kessler anyway. Same draft class, same free agency class. If you want to keep, you know, those two guys, which I. You do. If you're, if you're Detroit, then the price is Holland plus Ivy plus Harris plus four picks plus four swaps. But it's still, it's the whole thing. And I might just say it and do it anyway.

[Steve Jones Jr.]

Bring me Lori Marketing. I understand.

[Zach Lowe]

All right. The Pistons are definitely not mediocre and we do not have Mike Tirico here to interview me. But it is time for our newest segment, Zach's Insights to Mediocrity. And here it is, this week's insight. Are you a middle aged man who kind of forgot how to tie a tie or never really even learned to tie a tie that well? If you tried to tie a tie, would it take you anywhere between five minutes and four hours and would you get very frustrated? Have you watched a YouTube video entitled how to tie a Tie and paused it step by step by step only to still find you are struggling to tie your tie? Here is my insight to such mediocrity. Just keep all your ties tied once you Tie it once, put it on a hanger, keep it tied, keep the knot, everything. You never have to think about it again. Skeptics, purists will tell you a, you're less of a man because you can't tie a tie very well. Or you have to relearn how to tie a tie every time. Who cares? Less of a man. I already can't fix anything that's over. Number two, they'll tell you, well, you know, like, it's not good for the fabric. It's all scrunched up, it wrinkles. This part of it, what do I care about? It's a knot. And then the little circle at the top goes under my shirt collar. The actual tie, it's smooth, it's fine. No one's going to notice anything. I don't have any hassle, I don't have to spend any time and I save myself the ignominy, the embarrassment of having any clip on ties. It's like a clip on, but it's not a clip on. It's a perfect solution. And if you are a mediocre man, that is your insight to mediocrity from Zach Lowe this week. Okay, I want to get your thoughts on the Cleveland Cavaliers as we talk about the East. I really. Because I can't figure out how I feel about The Cleveland Cavaliers. 10 and 5. Garland has only played three games. Streuss has missed the whole season. 11th in offense, ninth in defense, 10th in net rating. Feel slightly disappointing given the 60 something games or whatever they won last year. My biggest regret from the Simmons House over under podcast is they talked me into taking the over on Cleveland when I initially said under and then they talked me into it and I caved. I should, I should have stuck with my guns. I don't know how to feel about this team 15 games in. How do you feel about this team 15 games in.

[Steve Jones Jr.]

I've, I've kind of felt the same way. And I think what really threw me off was when Darius Garland did come back and we did get some hints of the Cavs being a juggernaut again. And then he's out of the lineup.

[Zach Lowe]

And with the same injury. With the same injury.

[Steve Jones Jr.]

Yeah. So it's like, okay, now I have to evaluate you as you might just be this for a hot minute. And this is a lot of Donovan Mitchell who's been game and played very well. It's a lot of Evan Mobley shifting into more aggression with mixed results. And so my mind is caught between the current state of their team, the ceiling that we know exists and the playoff questions that also exist around. Okay, Evan Mobley, what are these drives going to look like? Are you catching, shooting threes? Have you changed your shot profile to where you're in the restricted area? Less. What is Jared Allen going to do? Can he hold up defensively? Are you going to trust him to hold up defensively? DeAndre Hunter, more involved, more engaged. That helps you now? Does that help you even more later? I just feel like this team offensively, how are they going to consistently create? Because who's driving the basketball outside of Donovan Mitchell and occasionally Evan Mobley, who's getting downhill? Where are the paint points coming from? I think they're, last I checked, they were low in points. In the paint, you get a lot of threes or these high quality threes. You know, are you a team that's generating the shots you want or are these the shots you can get? And so how does that evolve during the season? And then you still have to deal with teams putting Mitchell and Garland in action. Allen Mobley, I'm just, I want them to get healthy so I can figure this out.

[Zach Lowe]

I said before the season this was the year of the sort of existential crisis for the Cavs, like does this four guys work or not? And the answer is going to be final after this year. And I don't mean that's championship or bust. I mean do you get through the playoffs in whatever circumstance feeling like, yeah, okay, we finally got an honest run out of this team healthy and we think this is good enough. I'm worried that this existential crisis is going to hit sooner rather than later based on how the season has started. You mentioned the pain points and the drives. I know Garland's only played three games. Garland's amazing all star level player, one of the craftiest, most creative off the dribble players. Change of pace players in the NBA unlocks so much for them. It's making me nervous how much. How different they look without him and how much of their. I mean they're 10 and 5, so they're obviously good anyway. But how much of their. Our championship ceiling is so dependent on this guy because they're just so many possessions. There's so many quarters where their entire offense seems to be save us Donovan Mitchell or just like Sam Merrill goes crazy on transition threes for two minutes or something. And to your point, I looked up the second spectrum tracking data last year. 51 drives per 100 possessions for the Cavs. That was seventh among all teams. This year, 40 per 100 possessions. That's 27th among all teams. They were 15th in percentage of shots at the rim last year. They're 27th this year. You can wave away some other stuff, like their defense, I think is still really good. Opponent's been on fire. From three. That will normalize. The Cavs have been a little cold from three. That will normalize. Garland's been injured. That will normalize. Stre will get healthy. You can wave away all that and maybe Garland alone solves the paint attack north south issue. It's just been jar. The lack of, of consistency in that element of their game has been jarring and that's been a little worrisome to me. The other thing that's been a little worrisome to me is very quietly, Jared Allen's minutes are down and the Cavs are trending toward more Mobley at center in a lot of these endgame, close game situations. And I don't necessarily think that's like a bad thing. Like, Evan Mobley is awesome. He, he profiles at least as a part time, if not full time center for a lot of his career. I just don't know what that means for this specific and, and by it, maybe Jared Allen playing 25 minutes is totally fine for his player type and his player level. I just, I don't know what that means for this specific iteration of the Cavs because if they decide Evan Mobley at center is a half a game look for us, is our. Is our a look? Well, Mitchell plus Garland plus Mobley at center is going to be pretty small. And no matter how you fill out the other two slots, whether it's Hunter or Streuss or Lonzo or Merrell, it's going to be very small. I don't, it just, it's all interesting to me. There's more questions swirling in my brain than I anticipated. That's all.

[Steve Jones Jr.]

No, yeah, I'm with it and I think it's, it's one of those things where Jared Allen is still very impactful. But okay, if teams are just going to switch against him on offense and then they're going to try and put him in action on the other end, do we just pivot to Evan Mobley? And then if Evan Mobley's the five, are we just going to keep Evan Mobley out of the action and we attack everyone else and now Evan Mobley, what are you going to do? Do we switch against you on the other end? Like, how do we, how do we take this advantage away? I think that's a lot of what teams are trying to do. How do we make. We're going to make Evan Moby prove it. We're going to make Jared Allen prove it. And that's where my playoff questions are in the back of my mind, because I know these two are talented and they help this team, but I know the league is going to try and poke at them to beat the Cavs. And so how do they accept the challenge? Because Evan Mobley attacking matchups is fun. Inverted pick and roll is great. Post ups are fun. He's having a career year technically. But if we just get to a point where we switch and now we double you and you have to kick it, are we hurt? Are you making enough shots to beat us? Like, that's where I'm just like trying to work through the height of what they can get to.

[Zach Lowe]

Let's. I mean, I, I looked up this morning to remind myself, do they have a. Do they have a free draft pick to trade at any point? And they do. They can trade. They're either. Either their 2031 or 2032 first round pick. Plus they can trade the picks they've already swapped like that other teams have swap rights on. So they're not great picks, but they can trade like swapped picks. I start, I just, I haven't started thinking. I haven't started making fake trades yet. I just wanted my brain to remember, like, they have at least something if they want to tweak this. But they're also in the second apron, which subjects them to every potential restriction possible. So I don't, I don't know. But it's just my brain is just now like, just put it in the back of your head.

[Steve Jones Jr.]

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[Zach Lowe]

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[Steve Jones Jr.]

Welcome to Walgreens. Looking for a holiday gift? Sort of.

[Zach Lowe]

My cousin Freddy showed up to surprise us.

[Steve Jones Jr.]

Oh, sounds like a real nice surprise.

[Zach Lowe]

Exactly. So now I have to get him a gift, but I haven't gotten my bonus yet. So if we could make it something really nice but also not break the bank, that'd be perfect.

[Steve Jones Jr.]

How about a Keurig for 50% off? Bingo savings all season.

[Zach Lowe]

The holiday road is long.

[Steve Jones Jr.]

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[Zach Lowe]

Okay, you want to bounce around the league with some questions I have for you?

[Steve Jones Jr.]

Absolutely.

[Zach Lowe]

Let's talk about Anthony Edwards, who I think one of the more interesting developments of the season has been the Wolves. Just saying, you're the point guard now, like you were always kind of the point guard, but you're really going to be the point guard. Mike Conley's going to come off the bench. We're going to start DiVincenzo in his spot, who's a two guard who can, you know, do run a little bit. The offense, you can come off screens and go into pick and rolls that way. We have a power forward in Julius Randall who can certainly run a lot of the offense and in his way, post ups and pick and rolls and isos. But ant, you're the point guard now and you look at his numbers, he's having 26 points and three and a half assists a game. His assists are actually down. And yet I watch him play and I was in Minnesota last week, watched a lot of their recent games. His pick and roll numbers are up in terms of frequency of pick and rolls. Without going further because I want to kick it to you right away. I watch him play and I don't, I don't care about the assist numbers. I like the way that he's playing and I have my eyes and ears up monitoring how this works because I think it's kind of working and I'm very intrigued.

[Steve Jones Jr.]

I think he's just been a lot more decisive for the majority of this year. He's making quicker decisions. He's seeing with the defense is giving him and assists or not, you know, when he makes those quick decisions, if you switch, I'm gonna attack the other way and get in the paint. If you're in a drop, I'm taking the space. And if you're putting two on the ball, I understand how to get to the roll real quick. Him being able to kind of fire through those quicker I think is really important. When he plays quick and he's decisive, it's great. It's interesting to see, especially to me, in the back of my brain is that Denver game where Denver's decided, hey, we're gonna put a little bit of these playoff things back on your radar. So we're gonna mix these coverages up. Anthony Edwards, we're gonna, we're gonna put two on the ball, but we're also gonna drop. We're Gonna throw some switches in and then we're gonna show help. Are you gonna be as decisive against those or do you kind of lean back into. Okay, dribble, dribble. Let me see where my play is. I need to make a shot to try and loosen things up. Do we get you in that ballpark now? It's Anthony Edwards. So we've seen him prove that he can defeat this in the playoffs. That's why the Wolves made a run. But that part gets interesting for me as far as, okay, can we put some of this back on the table to kind of bog him down? Because I think ultimately he's going to get a mix of coverages because every great player gets him.

[Zach Lowe]

I will tell you, everyone in Minnesota would say, well, that Denver game, the schedule makers curve. Both our Denver games here are on back to backs for us. You know, just keep it in mind and they're not wrong. I I Decisive is, is a good way to put it. I I so I looked this up also on the tracking data. Number one I mentioned, I hinted at this earlier. He's, he's getting blitzed the second most of any ball handler behind Luca, which is, and it's a huge, a huge jump for him in terms of blitz rate over his career. So teams are deciding, okay, if you're the point guard, you know, we have, you have a center, who do you trust him enough to throw him the ball 20ft from the rim and have him make plays? We don't think so. We're not that scared of Julius Randle's three point shot, even though the numbers say maybe we should be. We're not that scared of Jaden McDaniel's three point shot, even though the numbers say we probably, definitely should be. We are scared of Dante DiVincenzo as the greenest green light in the league. But we're going to put two on you. And I looked up these numbers because you can do this all in the tracking data. Like you can look at pick and roll ball handlers. How often do they shoot out of a pick and roll? How often do they pass? How often does do they get an assist directly out of a pick and roll? He has his lowest. He is shooting on the fewest pick and rolls of his career so far this season. His field goal rate on pick and rolls is down to a career low. His pass rate is up to a career high. His assist rate is at a career low. And that dovetails with the eye test where to me he's just making the simple play and Letting the offense run. He's getting hockey assists. He's getting like three passes down the line. Assists, if you want to call them. They're not even hockey assists. They're like tertiary assists. Like you put two on the ball and I've got someone over on the wing who's open. I'm going to swing it to that person. Maybe they have a better angle to go bear than I do. Maybe that swing pass forces help to come from the other side. And that person swings it all the way over to a three point shooter there. He's just not forcing anything. And I absolutely love it. And one of the reasons I love it is because he knows how to force things when he can and wants to. And I think he's sort of biding his time. Like once in a while when he sees you coming on a blitz, he'll split it aggressively and go into the paint and dunk or make the next play. Once in a while if you drop back, he'll be like, oh, I'm. This is my time to take a mid range jumper. I'm doing it. Once in a while when you blitz, he does one of my favorite things, which he'll. He'll drag the blitz out, drag it to the sideline, throw the ball to Gobert, his screener, and then run back and get a handoff from Gobert, which has the effect of the defense is now dropped back into a drop by default because it's a second screen and now I can really attack. And I love when Ant gets his give and go cutting energy going. He just feels like a guy who's kind of biding his time, experimenting with this style, learning the beats of just. I'm gonna be. I'm just gonna start the machine and see where it ends up. But I can also still be the machine when I need to be. I really like the way he's playing. It's not showing up in the stats other than Minnesota is scoring like gangbusters when he's on the floor.

[Steve Jones Jr.]

Nah, he's making the right reads, making the right plays. And I also like that when it's time for him to go, they mix in those post ups for him and he doesn't necessarily care where the help is there. Like, no, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go ahead and get a shot here. We're gonna play out of that, getting him some more movement. I love the passing catch. I don't know why more teams don't run that. You get the benefit of a pick and roll without the defense. Knowing you should do more pitch and catch, that's my PSA for the league. But yeah, Anthony ever has been dynamic. And I think it's when he's playing at a high level and he makes quick decisions, there's not much you can do with him.

[Zach Lowe]

Like, I almost think if I, if I weren't so sort of enamored with how he's playing, I would almost say at times he's being too cautious and too passive. Like there, there have been, there have been a few times on blitzes where he's turned the corner. Like, where he's like, I'm just gonna go around this guy and now it's gonna be five on three. And I'm like, could you do that more? Could you hit the roller more instead of always settling for the pass out to the wings? But I think he can do all of those things when he feels like, I don't know, I just really like the way he's playing. And he has these moments now every once in a while where if you do drop against him, he'll do the sort of Luka e thing of I'm going to pin my defender on my hip, I'm going to keep my dribble alive, I'm going to scan the floor. And by the way, not only do I have a floater, I have all these crazy step through pivot moves now where it's like defenses are. He's just, it's like a freaking Three Stooges skit. He's just, guys are just falling over, chasing ghosts, waving at air when he's not there anymore. Some of those moves are. That's just hard work, man. He's, he's worked, he's mastered a lot of sophisticated footwork.

[Steve Jones Jr.]

The, the footwork and the, the ball, the, the handles tighter. That combination, especially when he's going quick and he can get right to his spot, it's tough, it's tough to deal with. And so in the post, in pick and roll against drop I when he's in attack mode, especially late in games, you see that. Like, I know he did really bad things to Utah in Utah because they couldn't deal with the footwork and the one on one attacks. And so props to Anthony Edwards. I think he's been really good.

[Zach Lowe]

You mentioned the post ups. He also has, he's starting to run some guard, guard, pick and rolls with like Jalen Clark or Conley or Divincenzo to try to get those kind of size mismatches. I love, I love that I'm Just saying, like, if you just look at his numbers and even if you just look at Minnesota's record, you'd kind of be like, yeah, kind of underwhelming, like, not this, like, incredible season for team or player. I think there's like a quiet potential for a second half of the season or last 50 games of the season and sort of mini ascension to another level that could happen.

[Steve Jones Jr.]

I wouldn't be surprised. I mean, Minnesota has a formula. They know how to work towards it. And I think the offensive improvements usually I've been hammering the home that, hey, Minnesota has to defend at a certain level or else they can't do it. I don't necessarily feel that same way. Now, the defense does get interesting against some of the better teams so far early in the season, but I am a believer that Minnesota is not really a team you want to play with or play in the postseason. It's not a fun matchup.

[Zach Lowe]

No. And the defense has been obviously much shakier when Gobert's off the floor. The Reed Randall combo has been a little bit mushy, but Naz Reed is starting to look like Nas Reed again, which is. Which is great news for the Wolves. And Dillingham's getting a little. Dillingham's getting his chance. And I. And I'm interested to see what he does with it. Another quick question For Steve Jones Jr. Have you noticed that ESPN changed its box scores online?

[Steve Jones Jr.]

Yes.

[Zach Lowe]

Are you as annoyed by it as I am?

[Steve Jones Jr.]

I have accepted my fate. Now my brain just kind of registers, okay, there's no way this person played seven minutes. That's points now. And then I just kind of.

[Zach Lowe]

The first column on the left is no points, and minutes has now moved all the way to the end. And my brain is like. Like, I. Whoever did this. So good for you. You're mature about it, Steve. Whoever did this, I think you need to have to give a speech at the Sloan Conference to explain your reasoning for this. And we all get tomatoes to throw at you in the audience. I fucking hate this. It's breaking my every morning. My routine. My routine is now twice as long because I'm looking at the box. We're like, oh, that's weird. The so and so only played this many minutes. Devin Booker played 19 minutes left. Oh, that's points. You've accepted it.

[Steve Jones Jr.]

I. Well, I think the other part is because minutes is so far away. So depending on what you got, you got to scroll over to find it. It's.

[Zach Lowe]

It's interesting, but I hate the rebounds, too. Because now they have total rebounds. They used to have offensive defensive total. Now they have total over here in the middle. And then offensive defensive rebounds are all the way over on the other side of the box. Who are. I hate this. Why did they do this, Steve? This is really. This is like a. A big part of my life is navigating this.

[Steve Jones Jr.]

I will say, though, the rebounds being separate, I don't know about that one. I feel like you could have kept rebounds where they were. Let me do my math real quick.

[Zach Lowe]

I really am not happy about it.

[Steve Jones Jr.]

Not happy at all.

[Zach Lowe]

Last question for you and I'll let you go. Tyler Hero. I will be back soon. Ish. I hope you have talked already on the dunker spot with Nikais about Miami's revamped offense. I've talked a lot about it. He. I think I saw his. Gave his first comments about how he's going to fit into it. How do you think Tyler Hero is going to fit into this? Sort of like totally diminishing the pick and roll offense at the Heater running.

[Steve Jones Jr.]

He should fit in well. It should take a little bit off his plate as far as thinking goes. He should be able to attack. They play with good pace and tempo, so. And they moved the ball so he knows he'll get it back. So he should be able to make simpler plays. And I think for Miami overall, they're going to need his scoring and his ability to drive if he can nail those. Because as much as I've loved what Miami does, it does feel sometimes like, well, there's a lot of Davion Mitchell. You kind of need him to do this and you need Jaime to do this and Norm Powell's been great. But having a secondary, like, if you have Pal and Hero being able to kind of drive and kick towards each other, attack defenses when they're rotating, I think that's a positive. And I think the. The fact that they've had success with it early should make it easier for Tyler Hero to kind of just buy into it. And it takes away some of the let's wait for Tyler Hero to make a decision and pick and roll type plays that haven't been the most fun for Miami at times.

[Zach Lowe]

I think it's going to be interesting, but probably fine. And I also think part of Tyler Herro fitting into the system is the ability to play outside of it in a pinch. I think that's part of his value is to sort of fit out, as LeBron might say in an old passive aggressive tweet. Can I have. I Have another gripe for you. While I'm griping, can I gripe about something else?

[Steve Jones Jr.]

Absolutely.

[Zach Lowe]

So it's been City Edition week the last couple of weeks in the NBA, as I'm sure you notice, with the City Edition jerseys and courts.

[Steve Jones Jr.]

Yep.

[Zach Lowe]

They wrote City Edition on the court just so you know that it's a City Edition game. I'm not stupid. Like, I don't need you to tell me that and waste court space doing that. But here's my real gripe. Every announced team. Every local announced team talks about their City Edition jerseys like they should hang in the Louvre. Like, oh, my God, will you look at these peach tree jerseys? You gotta get one, don't you, Nick? Oh, my God, the orange is so beautiful. The Cavs are playing in their creamsicle jerseys the other night. The court is orange. It's orange everywhere. This orange. Look. Boy, you got to go to this dude. Just shilling for people to buy. The Celtics. Oh, look at this beautiful white and gold. The Celtics. Every. Every team City Edition jersey is the greatest jersey in the history of the world. No one is allowed to say, actually, it just is another mediocre jersey or it flat out sucks. It's. Every game is half an advertisement for the City Edition jerseys. It's driving me mad.

[Steve Jones Jr.]

You got to. Got to go get one.

[Zach Lowe]

The Wolves one's very nice.

[Steve Jones Jr.]

The Wolves one's very nice. Can I gripe?

[Zach Lowe]

The Wolves ones are the Prince ones, right? Those are great. Beautiful. I just. You just say it one time. Like, look at the beautiful Prince jersey. You don't need to say it 15 times a game. Yes, Gripe.

[Steve Jones Jr.]

I am a fan of alternate courts, so I'm enjoying the matching one gripe I have. So Portland has done the airport City Edition uniforms again. I'm from Portland. I love that they do that. I would like for them to not play on the red court with those jerseys anymore. It clashes. It breaks my head. I don't like it. Fix it.

[Zach Lowe]

The red court being the. The in season tournament court. The Emirates Cup.

[Steve Jones Jr.]

No, no. Just the regular home red in the paint court. And so you have. These black jerseys are beautiful with a whole bunch of red. I'm just like, why'd you do that? This is. Fix it.

[Zach Lowe]

I love this. You have any other fashion gripes?

[Steve Jones Jr.]

The Charlotte Hornets court is a little busy for me.

[Zach Lowe]

It's a little funky, right?

[Steve Jones Jr.]

It's a little. It's a. It's. It takes a little bit to get used to, so that's probably my secondary grip.

[Zach Lowe]

The heat brought back Miami Vice. That's smart. Magic's. The silver ones are great. The jazz ones with the mountains and the grayscale are great. I just don't need an advertisement shoved in my face like, these are the greatest. Not every jersey can be the greatest jersey that every team, any team has ever produced. There was a lot of talk. I was at the Wolves Kings game last Saturday. Friday. It was Friday because it was an Emirates cup game about the green. The green court, which in which in person, I have to say, did not look as neony as it did on television. In person, it was almost a soft lime ish kind of green. The red courts are. I mean, this is literally what like front office personnel and scouts are talking about before these games is. Not everyone's talking about the courts. The red courts, the all red ones that I can't remember who has all red one. They are universally hated. Everybody hates them. They're an eyesore. You can't find one person defending them.

[Steve Jones Jr.]

I. I feel like they've tried to, like, make the red different each year and try and replace some red with gray courts. And even then the red courts don't really work. That Minnesota green court was. It was. They were glowing on the television. You could just like see the reflection in their face. It was a lot.

[Zach Lowe]

I was sitting right behind the King's bench and in person, it wasn't so bad. I was really excited to sit right behind the King's bench because I was hoping for a, like a total meltdown and. Or just like, you know, some. Are they ignoring Doug Christie? What's happening on the whiteboard? Is anyone paying attention? It was. It turned out there was no drama. There was not a ton of, like, engagement. But there was no. Was fine. I was hoping for a meltdown. Steve Jones Jr. The dunker spot with Nikais. A Yahoo production. Now it's on Tuesdays and Fridays. Right? What else do we need to your writing this year?

[Steve Jones Jr.]

I am. I am doing that for Yahoo. Right? Yes. Yay me.

[Zach Lowe]

That's not. Yeah. You writing is a lot of work. I should know. I used to do is. I would tell. I tell people. And you're still doing your. Your, your Twitter clips. Although not as often as you will in the playoffs. What's going on in the games? This video coordinator, longtime NBA person. I always tell people, if you want to actually know what happened in the game, like, you don't want to talk about LeBron's legacy and so. And so, you know, gutless and whatever sports talk you hate, you actually want to know what happened in the game and why one team beat the other team or how one team tried to counter what the other team did. Steve Jones, Jr. Is your guy. The Dunker Spot is the podcast for you. Steve, man, thank you very much for your time.

[Steve Jones Jr.]

Thanks for having me.

[Zach Lowe]

All right, that's it for today's edition of the Zach Lowe Show. Thanks to Steve Jones, Jr. For his invaluable insight and his time. Thanks to Jesse, Jonathan and Mike on production. We'll be back with another episode soon. We'll see exactly when, but thank you all for listening and watching. The Zach Lowe show must be 21 or over in President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over in President D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit RG to-help.com, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York.