← The Zach Lowe Show
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- [00:00]
A
This episode is brought to you by State Farm. One minute the crowd's cheering, the next the scoreboard flips. Sports are full of surprises and life isn't much different. That's where State Farm comes in with their easy to use digital tools and over 19,000 local agents who can help you call the right play. Because when you know someone's ready to assist, you have the confidence to take on the unpredictable. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there with the assist. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Price and eligibility vary by state. All right, coming up on a loaded Zach Lowe show. The great Rob Mahoney is here and holy smokes is there a lot to talk about. And a lot of it is depressing and 65 game rule related Victor Wembanyama Bruised rib left the game last night San Antonio Philly he needs to play in one more game to be eligible for like every award imaginable. This is the most impactful awards injury maybe in the history of of the NBA. Knock on wood. Hopefully he can sneak in and it's not anything more than a bruised rib that typically is like a weak recovery. Luca is headed to Europe to try to speed up his recovery from calf issues to be ready for some point in the playoffs whenever that would be. Austin Reeves Timetable a little more set in stone. Luca may appeal his ineligibility for omb. We're like running out of people. There's a new Giannis story. You'll never believe it, but the honest situation is even messier than we've previously known. Rob Mahoney is going to talk about all that. We're going to debate his all NBA, all rookie, all defense picks that he made on group chat the other day. We're going to revise them in light of all of this spate of injuries. We're going to talk playoff seedings mania. Who wants the third seed in the west five to 10 in the east is still a complete mess with a bunch of head to head matchups left to go. More awards talk, more playoff talk. It's all coming up on the Zach Low show with Rob Mahoney. The Zach Low show is brought to you by FanDuel. The NBA postseason is here and FanDuel knows the only thing better than watching your favorite team win is winning along with them. Fanduel is the best place to bet the teams players and plays during their playoff run. Build a same game parlay or try live betting and jump in after tip off. And don't forget, with Fanduel you get paid instantly when you win. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app now and play your game 20 or over in select states 18 and over in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatincenetic. Welcome to the Zach Lowe Show. It's Tuesday morning. Holy crap. There's a lot going on in the NBA. Rob Mahoney is here to help us sort it out. How you doing, Rob?
- [02:47]
B
I'm doing great. My head is spinning. I'm living in spreadsheets. I'm trying to determine what an eligible game even means these days. You know, we're thriving, Jack. Zach.
- [02:59]
A
I like that. You almost call me by the wrong name. That was exciting.
- [03:01]
B
Out of the gate. What am I doing?
- [03:03]
A
Just, did you go Jack or Josh?
- [03:05]
B
I, I, I fumbled the consonant and jacked it.
- [03:09]
A
So. So there's a thing, and I don't know why or what, where if my name. If someone calls me by the wrong name, 80% of the time, it's Josh. And I have mentioned this to a few other Zachs in the world.
- [03:24]
B
Yeah.
- [03:24]
A
And when I mentioned it to them, they were like, oh, my God, I feel seen, I feel understood. It's always Josh. There's something phonetically about those two names anyway. That's just an interesting concept for linguists out there listening to the podcast. I think about it all the time. We had, like, four different ways to start this podcast. And then Victor Wembanyama left last night's game against the Sixers. Yet another spurs win with a rib contusion. He needs to play one more game. 20 minutes to be eligible for. Let's see. MVP, Defensive Player of the Year, first team, all NBA, first team, all defense. Theoretically, most improved player. Just throw that. Throw that on there.
- [04:06]
B
Yeah.
- [04:07]
A
And, like, good luck deciphering this, because you get two games where you can play between 15 and 20 minutes, and those count. Oh, by the way, you won't see this in his game log, but he played in the NBA cup championship game, and that does count. So when you look up his stats, his stats aren't even right. And you have to add that. What the fuck are we doing with this 65 game rule? We have this slew of guys. Cade's gone. Luca is going to appeal because he's going to finish it. Whatever. What is he at? 64 games and he missed two for the birth of his child, a third for suspension. We'll talk about that later. Anthony Edwards, not eligible. I'm Just running out of guys. I'm running out of guys and I don't like running out of guys. But this one, look, I was texting with our buddy Jeff Stocks who runs in street clothes last night. Average return for a bruised rib four days a game or two. So if that's all it is, you better believe he's gonna play 21 minutes in some game to get this. Now he did warn me, Jeff did that X rays are really critical here because sometimes you don't see or feel like a fracture or even a minor one in your rib until you go under the X ray. So today we'll probably learn more. Knock on every piece of available material in your immediate vicinity. But look, the awards implications here are massive. The title implications here are massive. If this does turn out to be a longer term thing, God help us. Like this would be the saddest. If this is a long term injury. This plus Luka, I haven't felt this sad about anything since Jamal Murray tore his ACL in 2021, I think and the Nuggets were absolutely rolling and it was like clear that that was over. But you know, the Lakers, I just don't ever think like we're a Finals, Finals team, a scary team for sure. I just didn't think they could get to the. The spurs are a finals team. They're a 60 win team. This effectively locks them into the number two seed. They're three games behind the Thunder. I don't see them going full speed with Wemby to get the number one seed and they'd need a lot of help and you know, the implications are everywhere. But like I'm going to be optimistic and assume that it is just a bruise rib, that he does make himself awards eligible and that he's full go playoffs. And so like I'm going to leave the deeper exist. You're wearing a shirt that says existential dread. Going to leave the existential championship implications to the side for a minute. Defensive player of the year. I have thought 0 seconds about that award the entire season. He was probably going to win unanimously and if he's not eligible, we're going from a situation where someone was going to win unanimously to they can't even be on the ballot. And all the voters and non voters like me are scrambling to be like wait, what the f. Who's defensive player of the year now? Who would be defensive player of the year now? I would, I have my vote. Who would your vote be?
- [06:49]
B
I think my vote would probably be Chet and I, I honestly don't think I would have to comb that hard to get there. He's been so exceptional in terms of his rim protection this season, and obviously the Thunder defense has been so great. But just the idea that defensive player of the year would change hands this late in the game after, as you mentioned, Zach, like a pretty much unanimous run by Wemby or a unanimous worthy run by Wemby to this point, and not because of something that literally any player did, that Wemby did, that Chet did, that anybody did in terms of making actual basketball plays, but just that there might not be enough, sufficient notches because of this kind of fluke injury at the last possible moment. It's just like the worst kind of plot twist. It reminds me, honestly, a lot of something that Joanne and I talk about a lot on prestige, which is the difference between surprise and suspense. Right? It's like if the, if the last two months of the season are Wemby and Chet going back and forth and we're constantly watching and evaluating, it's like, man, this is a tense battle for defensive player of the year. That's awesome. When it's just like, hey, guess what? There's a bomb under the seat. And it just blew up. And now Chet Holmgren is the defensive player of the year. Just distinctly less fun, I have to say.
- [07:58]
A
So I don't like the rule. I've never liked the rule. It should be noted that all the players unions bellyaching about the rule. You can, you can miss me with that as you had to sign off on it in collective bargaining and you can tell it's collectively bargained because, because the rule has, like, this is what counts as a game and this is what counts as a season ending injury. And these are the exceptions. And here's the arbitration process that Luca may engage in, that Devin Booker may try to engage in because he has two sub 10 minute games that don't count. He's not eligible. And it's like clearly a million lawyers got in a room and made this rule and made it impossible to understand. So the union, you are, you're, you're not blameless here. You signed off on this. You thought you were going to get some big concession.
- [08:38]
B
You didn't.
- [08:38]
A
You got something. I don't even remember what. But this is where we are. And all we got to do is like hope that this is, that this is just a bruised rib for Wemby. He did come back into the game and then got ruled out at halftime. But I agree with you. I would pick Chet Holmgren he's sort of like, I don't, I don't want to say JV Wemby because that's like not, that's not flattering. But he is the closest thing to Wemby that exists in that he is an apex predator rim protector who is long enough and agile enough. And that his defense does not end there. That you feel him. Not quite. To the extent you feel Wemby, not quite the fear factor that is all encompassing, that you feel before the game even starts when you take the ball out of bounds 94ft away. You start planning your play or erasing plays from your playbook because Wemby is on the floor somewhere. But Chet roams around. He can switch. He's long. He gets in your head in the same way. And yeah, and their defense has been number one all season. There are something like, I have it somewhere there, plus 9 per 100 possessions when he plays without Shea. And that's all defense. And if you go, if you go deeper than that, you're like, well, it's probably three point shooting luck. It's actually not. The opponent three point shooting numbers in those, like chat no SGA minutes are pretty normal. What's not normal is teams are shooting a laughable percentage at the rim because Chet Holmgren is allowing 48% shooting on shots at the rim, which is absolutely absurd. And what's also happening in those minutes is the Thunder don't foul. That's another under underrated skill of Chet Holmgrid. So I would vote him too. You released your all defensive teams yesterday.
- [10:14]
B
Yes.
- [10:15]
A
I'm going to read your team. And your first team is Wembanyama Gobert, Shet, Bam, Scotty Barnes. Am I correct?
- [10:27]
B
That's correct.
- [10:28]
A
Second team is A. SAR Thompson, Derrick White, Kayson Wallace, OG Anunoby and Stefan Castle, which I just was so jealous of the Stefan Castle pick. I just, I could not love that guy anymore. If I, if I had a team that I cared about, I would want them to call the spurs every day and just be like, we'll give you six first round. I just want to watch this guy play. I don't even care if it's a bad trade. I just want to watch him play.
- [10:51]
B
I want to watch him play. And I, I would just feel great putting my team in his hands in a lot of different ways. Just someone who has that kind of competitive drive, who plays with that kind of physicality and energy. What is not to love about Castle at this point?
- [11:04]
A
When he big boyed Aaron Gordon in The game of the year the other day.
- [11:08]
B
Just stop right there. A guard. Big boy to Aaron Gordon. And that's a real thing that happened in actual life.
- [11:13]
A
That's almost like a thing. That's almost like the basketball equivalent of when you and your friends in your 20s got drunk and someone dared you, like, I dare you to go in the road and get hit by a car and just see what happens. Or like we had one friend who was like, I'll bet you I can eat. This really happened. 40 deviled eggs and run around the house 20 times and not puke. And we were like, sure do that. I mean, that's what big boying Aaron Gordon is.
- [11:39]
B
Wait, what?
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A
You're on guard? You.
- [11:40]
B
You did the cool hand Luke. You were just down there housing hard boiled eggs.
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A
I did not do that. They were.
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B
Someone did.
- [11:47]
A
I think deviled eggs are disgusting after one. One is great. Two is, I'm sorry. I still like it, but I sense something is wrong. Three is. I, I. This is not going to go well. That's what. And he was just like, you know what? I'll fucking do it. Aaron Gordon's there. How about this? Aaron Gordon. Unbelievable. Okay, here would be my first team. I did this about three weeks ago. I've made some revisions.
- [12:09]
B
Okay.
- [12:10]
A
My first team is Wembanyama, Chet and bam. We have that in common. Those three in common. I have now moved to Sar Thompson from off my ballot, like as the 11th guy to first team, all defense. I've been watching the Pistons even more closely without Cade Cunningham. I may have watched probably half their games for the season, but more. And he's just been extraordinary. I moved him to first team and I have Anunoby on first team and I demoted Gobert to second team. I've just watching the Timberwolves in the last month and it's been up and down and their defense has actually been quite good. They've had Ant out, Jaden's out. Nas missed a couple games. Like, it's been a little bit of a train wreck. Mike Conley suddenly back in shooting threes and had a great. There's just been a few games where it feels like Rudy's level of engagement at the rim has not been at his peak level to the point that Jim Peterson, their great color analyst in their last game, I don't remember who they were playing. Someone penetrated and made a floater and Rudy didn't challenge the shot. Now you can, you can defend it by saying, he's, he's boxing out. He's. He's you know, protecting against the lob. I don't remember who, who took the shot. And Jim Peterson actually said, see, that's one of the shots that kind of gets under the skin of his teammates who are wondering, like, why didn't you challenge that shot? And I know Jim Pete and his connection to the team well enough that he's not saying that willy nilly. Someone has funneled that to him, I'm guessing. And I so But I do have My second team is Scotty Barnes, who you had Derek White, Rudy Gobert. Second team still there, Case and Wallace. And in the last spot where you had Castle. I had Amen Thompson before. He's out now barely. I had Jaden McDaniels before. He's out now barely. And I put Dyson Daniels in.
- [13:57]
B
Okay.
- [13:58]
A
I feel like Dyson Daniels is 95% as good defensively, 90% as good defensively as he was last year. And it's basically everything but the insane steals numbers. And the steals have come down a little bit. I still feel like he's rock solid. He guards the best player on the other team every game. The Hawks have been the story of the second half of the season. So that would be. That would be my team. With apologies to some of the aforementioned
- [14:20]
B
people, can we parse a couple of differences of opinion? I guess that's what we're here to do. I mean, I would love to start Scotty versus OG for first team because I, I love OG Anunoby. I will go to my deathbed defending OG Anunoby and talking about how much I would love to have him as a part of basically any, any theoretical team this season. And maybe this is just me clocking in on the wrong games. I feel like I've seen him get beat off the dribble a little more than I'm used to. Get worked in some of these higher leverage matchups a little more than I'm used to. And we're talking like the highest levels of defensive competition. And so he's still second team for me. But when I think about the season Scotty has had and the breadth of application that he has as a defender in terms of who he can guard and how, how many plays he manages to get involved in. The way teams seem to be like, navigating around him, they are so scared of his disruption. At this point, I feel like Scotty is doing a lot of the OG stuff better than OG is doing this season. And so like, when I was thinking about those two guys, I ended up going Barnes I'm curious to hear your take on it.
- [15:25]
A
Well, I. Okay, so you may be able to sway me on this because this is the one spot where I was wobbling, because I agree with you. There's been a couple of games even recently where OG has not looked as airtight to me as he did in the middle of the. And Scotty obviously is a stocks monster. He's got over 100. He's got. He actually has exactly 120, 112 steals and 112 blocks right now and guard centers and point guards and everybody. Og, I think, is about as versatile in the way that the Knicks use him. They have a little bit less flexibility because of what they have to do with Cat and Brunson defensively, I think. Look, and Scotty has played like 350 more minutes. So you may sway me, you may win this argument. I may flip flop and put Scotty and OG in first and second team, respectively. I just feel like OG's best moments on defense, he have been so destructive in terms of steals and challenges at the rim. And I realize Scotty does the same things and just physicality and flying around, getting deflections and blowing up pick and rolls that I feel like at his peak, he might have reached a little bit of a higher peak. But maybe you're right. Maybe Scottie over more minutes has been more consistently good. Raptors fans are going to like what I say about Scotty Barnes later, but I could take it or leave it. So that's our argument. You have. We both have Bam first team. I think that's well deserved. I'm tired of being like, oh yeah, Bam. I got to put him on second team because this guy had a million. So BAM is just a plus plus every single night. And that's all we get. Those are the only disagreements, really.
- [16:57]
B
Yeah. Honestly, a lot of alignment. I mean, it'll be interesting to see if Wemby isn't eligible. What we end up doing, defensive player of the Year ballot wise, like Chad may be number one, I think. I mean, the gap between Wemby and Chad to me is smaller than the gap between Chet and whoever's next. Whether you consider that to be Bam or Gobert or one of the Thompsons or Derrick White or Scotty Barnes. And so like Chet feels really, really confidently number one for me. After that, I feel like Scotty has a real case for me to like, eek into that number three spot on the defensive player of the year ballot. And that's part of the reason why like, if I put og, I feel like I might get a little squeamish about it, but I feel okay putting Scotty there for some reason.
- [17:38]
A
I think that's fine. I think, look, these are all fair arguments. You might be right about Scotty Barnes. I might. I might cave on that one. As much as I love Anunoby, I would probably go chet asar bam 1 to 3 if. If Victor is not eligible. But I'm not prepared to live in that world. I don't want to live in that world where we have to redo the entire balloting process because of a rib Bruise in game.
- [17:59]
B
But 79, if it does get a Sar Thompson some extra love. I'm not mad about that. We were just talking about him on group chat. In the context of who is the definitive stopper in the NBA right now, I think he's the answer. I mean, as far as, like, the guy you least want sitting in front of you when you're trying to do anything with the ball, I just can't think of a more hellacious option than a Sar Thompson.
- [18:20]
A
Yeah. And he's. He's. It was funny. I watched their game against Orlando, and I'm not going to read anything to that. It was a total mass unit for the Pistons. But, you know, he guarded Paolo, he guarded Bane, he guarded. He guards everybody. And he's. He's, I think, a little bit better, like, almost Peyton Watsony, and a little bit better trending down positionally towards guards and ball handlers because he's like, straight takes the ball from people. He's got that. He's got the case in Wallace, like, thanks. I'll just take it from you. Do you see the clip? Who was it? This was going around. It was not one of the games I watched when Kayson Wallace stole a crossover dribble from someone while the ball was in the air like it was. The ball didn't hit the floor and he just reached in and took it. And I was like, I don't know that I've ever. I'm not sure how often that happens where it's like the ball wasn't in his hands, the dribbler's hands, and it wasn't on the floor. It was just midair in case.
- [19:09]
B
Jesus Christ. This guy.
- [19:12]
A
Okay, other injury news. Oh, wait, no. Let's do. Let's do all NBA now. Let's do your. All NBA teams now. Because obviously Victor touches on this and let's do them without Luka. Let's pretend Luka loses his appeal. That's going to happen here. Were your first team all NBA. So here's where we are, you and I and I think everyone have if Luke is out and Cade's out and Booker's out and Ants out and just add them all up and Wemby's in, we have 13 guys that are just flat out in and we can disagree over who belongs on what team. But these 13 guys are all NBA players right now.
- [19:53]
B
Yes.
- [19:54]
A
Your first team was SGA Wemby Jokic. We didn't have to mention their names. Those they're in if eligible. And you had Kawhi Leonard and Donovan Mitchell. I had Victor Wembanyama, Sheikh Jokic, Donovan Mitchell and Jalen Brown. I know the case against Jaylen Brown. I've litigated it before. I understand the advanced stats will never spit out Jalen Brown and you can. And Kawhi Leonard, head to head has been a better player than Jaylen Brown this season. I just think the minutes and the Celtics win totals would sway me to Jaylen Brown. Reasonable. I mean he's played about 2400 minutes and Kawhi's at 1900. Something like that's enough for me to give Jaylen Brown the spot again. He's one of the 13. You put him second? Yeah, I put him first. It doesn't really matter. Second. Your second team was Jalen Brown. Jalen Brunson, Tyrese Maxey, Kevin Durant, Jamal Murray. I have the same except Kawhi second team and you had Jalen Brown first team. So I had Kawhi, Jamal Murray, Durant, Maxey, Brunson. Wavered a little bit on Brunson, but again we're just running out of guys and he's been outstanding the entire year and made another had another huge fourth quarter last night and just did you see that Knicks Hawks game?
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B
No.
- [21:08]
A
Unbelievable game. First of all, like I think almost a proof of concept game for the Hawks. Even though they lost outstanding defensive performance went toe to toe with the Knicks team who really wanted to win the game. Both teams played kind of like playoff rotations. No Alvarado, no Diawara, no Kisper and Nikhil Alexander Walker. I don't know if you I don't think he quite got to 40 high 30s. I just think he would be my most improved player.
- [21:34]
B
Yep.
- [21:35]
A
You don't want to reveal your choices because you're new on group chat. I think he cemented that award for me over Jalen Duran over Ryan Rollins, over a super crowded field of outstanding candidates. Dana Jenkins, you can make we can name 20. I just think his transformation from he's going to come off the bench and back up Trae Young to hey, I might actually have made the all star team in the east if I had played like this in this much all season. I'm averaging 21 points a game and my defense hasn't slipped at all. I actually added him to my all NBA long list when I did my stats database last night. So like I'm running out of guys. Let me throw this guy in the mix anyway.
- [22:13]
B
Especially I mean with Nikhil. If you're putting up the numbers he's putting up offensively. And as you said, not only has he not lost a step on defense, there are nights where he gets the premier assignments over Dyson Daniels in a way that honestly kind of makes it hard to parse both of them. For all defense, they've both been so good, but they do kind of weigh against each other in certain ways. I think in terms of just the splash they've been able to make. Nikhil's unbelievable and I think the critical part for me is he's hit like every part of the ascendance in a way where you can see the complete game really coming together. And my only hope is that he doesn't eventually hit like the dejounte Murray Threshold where he becomes a good enough offensive player that he suddenly forgets that he should or how to play defense anymore. It's always kind of sad for me when that happens, but Nikhil seems so motivated and so hyper focused on even that stuff that I kind of think this is just who he's going to be.
- [23:06]
A
I think the way the Hawks play and you can sense like Quinn Snyder watches them is like this is always what I wanted. This is my, this is my fever dream. Just random pick and roll combinations, super high pace. Nobody dominates the ball, not even Jalen Johnson. I think that pushes Nikhil Alexander Walker toward the best possible version of himself and not the area you're talking about. To wit, a couple weeks, a couple days ago I looked up his pick and rolls for the season because I was like, man, he's how is he getting to 21 points a game? I know he's taking more threes. He's hunting threes off movement off the dribble in ways he hasn't before. But he's got to have leveraged his on ball skills a little bit more. I think he's running 15 pick and rolls per 100 possessions, which is right in line with his per possession number in Minnesota. In other parts of his career early in New Orleans, etc. By the way, Portland and Utah just both gave up on him. Should be should be noted that both of them had him and dumped him for nothing. And so it speaks to like he's just finding his within the flow of this funky inverted big men running pick and rolls with guards screening for them kind of offense. And the Hawks are so interesting because they play these lineups like Kaminga, Jalen Johnson, Dyson, Dyson Daniels that should have no business working. There's just not enough shooting on the floor and they've it hasn't been great. Like the last time I checked the Kaminga, Jalen Johnson on the floor together numbers are not good but they just move and cut and screen and slip until something good happens. My, my, my, my head when I watch them, they have three lead ball handlers that I really trust. CJ McCollum, Nikhil and Jalen Johnson. When they go to lineups when only one of them is on the floor, I get a little nervous about the offense and I wonder if that's a playoff thing where like we're just going to keep two of them on the floor. And by the way, one thing I was thinking with the Hawks last night, it's hard to hide a bad perimeter defender. Against the Hawks, Jalen Brunson had to guard CJ McCollum for a lot of that game because Kat was guarding Dyson Daniels. There's a lot of teams if you put your centers on Dyson Daniels, you're out of places to hide your, your weaker perimeter defender. And that's just like a heart. It's why Charlotte is so hard to play against. There's just no place to hide a Jalen Brunson against Charlotte.
- [25:22]
B
I mean that's, that's the virtue of that kind of blender too, right? It's not only that there's no quarter for bad defenders, but as you're saying like it gives you such a great way to replicate the effects of spacing even when you don't actually have spacing. And when you have guys like Nikhil like I think one of my favorite parts about his game is when you have that kind of flow offensively, you either need to be somebody who makes really quick decisions with the ball or have kind of the off speed game where then you can drive from the second side and still keep defenses guessing. He's kind of both at the same time where he's so fast and so athletic, but he also has a weird cadence to his game and often to be honest, those are my favorite kind of players in the world. So thrilled about all of Nikhil's success.
- [26:02]
A
He fits the spirit of most improved player to me, the best of all the candidates. And I realize that's an amorphous thing to say and these should be hardcore analytical choices, but this is an amorphous. It's the Amorphous award. And you have some candidates who are like Jalen Duran, fourth year in the league, top whatever pick. He should still be improving, right? Like that's what we expect. That's why no one ever votes for second year players. But somehow third year players are the perfect sweet spot. Then you have the Danis, Jenkins, Colin Gillespie, Ryan Rollins, guys who go from not playing at all to oh my God, they're good. They almost feel like rookie ish to me in their total lack of experience before Nikhil Alexander Walker feels just like late bloomer, just nerd in high school. Had some acne, didn't go to the prom, got left behind, didn't, didn't party with his friends, went to college, kind of came out of his shell a little bit. Still a little shy. Then like mid to late 20s, moved to Los Angeles and just got better clothes. Girls loved him and that's, that's why he's going to win my most improved.
- [27:01]
B
Does that make. You know, there's this article in the Athletic this week about how you know Nikhil's rise and one of the quotes that jumped from it was this quote from Nikhil about how Quinn Snyder believed in him. Like believed in this for him when he didn't even necessarily see it for himself. In your parallel, does that make Quinn Snyder like the manic pixie dream girl who has reformed Nikhil Alexander's life like Walker's life as he moved out to
- [27:25]
A
the coast or like, like the Jennifer Coolidge character and Legally Blonde maybe given, given the age difference, like some sort of mentor through the Reese Witherspoon of weird. Wow.
- [27:36]
B
It's a beautiful thing.
- [27:38]
A
I bet people are surprised that I have seen Legally Blonde and Legally Blonde. What was the sequel called? It's got some bad subtitle like Legally Blonde back, back in the box, back in the jury box or something. What the fuck were we talking about, Nikhil? The Hawks, believe it or not, we
- [27:55]
B
were talking about all NBA and this is. I know, but I had another alley we've gone down.
- [27:59]
A
I had another Hawks point to make an. Oh, that game last night was like a significant game. The Knicks are like kind of almost locked into the 2 seed with TBD. If the Cavs want to have anything to do with that. The three seed rather the Knicks are locked into three seed, the Cavs four Celtics locked into two and the Hawks like had a chance to really put a stranglehold on five. And now the door is a little bit open for other teams anyway. So we agree on the first 10. The three that we agree given all the people who are ineligible have to be all NBA third team are Jalen Duran, Jalen Johnson and Shed Holmgren has now elevated into this place. There's a great like you want to put Duran on second team for Tyrese Maxey or Jalen Brunson. I wouldn't argue too hard. He's been unbelievable and they are. The Pistons are plus nine and a half points per 100 possessions in the minutes Duran plays without Cade which has obviously escalated in the last month. There's some shooting luck involved in that. But like that guy has been outstanding on both ends of the floor. I'm just not quite ready to put him in. Like he was one of the 10 best eligible players in the NBA this season. It feels a little, just a little soon for that. But he, he's an all NBA lock period. Then the last two spots become a little dicey. You I believe went with Carl Anthony Towns and James Harden, two guys where if two months ago you had said they were going to make all NBA people would have like aggregated it and it would have been like Rob Mahoney has lost his mind and has horrible taste in players. Has he watched cat fall over or not? You know what?
- [29:35]
B
They might still Zach, there's still that opportunity out there and I'm here to
- [29:40]
A
tell you, Rob Mahoney that in I'm, I'm taking it to the end. Okay. And I'm hoping that Luca gets one of these spots. But we're going to talk about Luka in a second. I also put Carl on their team all NBA I and then as I'm scrounging around for the last spot, I'm like well let me see, let me see here. Denny Abdia, 24, 7 and 7 Blazers. Kind of DOA. Without him he's going to just make it to 66, 65 games.
- [30:10]
B
Fingers crossed. Don't jinx them on that.
- [30:12]
A
Bam. Out of bio. Just going to put up a 2010 season now. 83 points probably propped up his scoring average by a point. Rock solid defense. Heat are 10 points better with him on the floor per hundred. I just would like my big man to shoot a little better than 50% on twos. That's all Evan Mobley. I don't know what Evan Mobley did to everybody other than not become a Super duper star. 18 points, 9 rebounds, 4 assists, 55% shooting, 63% on twos. Elite defense team is plus seven and a half when he plays without Donovan Mitchell. Totally forgotten. I'm going to throw another name into the mix for you. Lamelo Ball.
- [30:51]
B
Let's fucking go, Zach.
- [30:53]
A
20 points a game, seven assists, 40% from the field, 37% on threes. Takes a million threes, 46% on twos. Is not awesome. And he has not played a lot of minutes because they've watched his minutes a lot this year. I think that is probably the strike against him. But it's time to put Lamelo's name in the conversation. They are plus seven and a half per hundred when he plays without Con Knippel and plus like a million when he's the only one of him and Brandon Miller on the floor. Brandon Miller not going to be eligible. He's going to fall one game short, in case you were curious. And I think he's a better candidate than Con Canepo by a hair. We could argue that. I think it's Lamelo.
- [31:28]
B
I'm not going to argue it and frankly I'm really glad you brought him up for this, but because I feel like in the ongoing crowning of Con Knippel that is happening across NBA media, that is certainly we're very guilty of on this particular network.
- [31:41]
A
You could say he's riding shotgun alongside the NBA media ecosystem.
- [31:47]
B
You know he is. But in this case, in my twisting of our real life metaphor that we're, that we're kind of trudging through, Lamelo is the one in the driver's seat
- [31:55]
A
and often like, oh boy, don't, don't do that.
- [31:57]
B
I, I mean that look when he's
- [32:00]
A
in the driver's seat, watch out. Do your errands. Schedule your errands in Charlotte. Around the Hornets practice, shoot around and game schedule. That's all I'm saying.
- [32:11]
B
I'm not going to pretend he's not a menace to everyone on the road. But as far as who he is as a basketball player and who he is as a hornet, I think we talk about him as if he's this like rogue agent making crazy decisions on the fly, which he kind of is. But he's also their most bankable quality. Not just from a marketing perspective, but in terms of the on court product. What is driving the offense of the Charlotte Hornets. It still is lamello ball and he's been putting into a weird box in a different place and being talked about and thought about differently and I'm just kind of tired of it. Based off the season he's had which I think has been pretty exceptional, he
- [32:47]
A
belongs in the all NBA discussion. I think the minutes is the biggest obstacle and shooting 46% on twos is leaves me a little wanting. Although I do think he's made a greater commitment particularly in the last six months to try to get to the rim more. You try to finish a little more simply at the rim instead of turning everything into like a wild up and under lefty scoop shot of some kind. Alperin Shen, kind of written off in this discussion has finished the season strong. Twenty and a half points a game, nine boards, six dimes should not be slept on six dimes from a big man. He's up to 55% on twos so that's like come up it was hovering around 50 for a little while. Unless I'm looking at I'll check that in a second but that's the last time I checked it and they've played well when he plays without KD Harden has a great case. 24 game 8 dimes 41% is not great, 47% on twos is not great but he makes up for with free throws and passing. Cavs have been great with him on the floor and I'm here to tell you I went Karl Anthony Towns and Scotty Barnes I just the all around game. His scoring has really dipped in the last month as the Raptors have just kind of been hovering around.500 for a long stretch now and kind of just losing their grip on the sixth seed and being in danger of being in the play in but you talk about his defense and his passing and given this field he gets the last spot for me. Now if if Luka is in, he's out. Yeah if Victor is out I got to move Kawhi to first team, I got to move Duran to second team and then I got to pick someone else for a third team and I'm just not ready to do that yet.
- [34:24]
B
There's time yet. Hopefully it won't come down to that. Hopefully at least one of Victor or Luka will be eligible. Luka wasn't on my list to begin with. I'm just operating under the assumption he's not eligible until I'm told otherwise. If I have to replace Wemby on my list I would also go with Scotty Barnes for The last remaining spot. And I think all defense wise, if you have to replace Wemby, that's where I'm probably bumping up Evan. Evan Mobley to make second team, which I agree with you. He's had a really good season. Just kind of burdened by expectation and framing more than anything else. But Scotty's a great third team choice. Like, I'm in love with his defense. I'm really impressed with how he's kind of found himself in the flow of what they're doing offensively, which is not easy for any player, especially on that team in particular, where you can feel the fits and starts of the ball movement they're trying to make possible and the tension with Brandon Ingram's whole deal, to be honest with you. And like Scotty Barnes trying to find his place and all that has been one of the consistent bright spots of ultimately a kind of middling Raptors season.
- [35:25]
A
What's. And I asked myself and you this question at the same time. Why is it not just Denny Abdia? What are we like 24, 7 and 7? The team is over.500. They're jostling with the Clippers for the all important eighth seed.
- [35:38]
B
Yep.
- [35:38]
A
Is it just that the team isn't good enough and we want to look at teams that have won a little bit more? Is it like, is it that he's so free throw dependent that it's a little. I mean, but so is Shea. It's true, he is shooting only 31% on threes, but 54% on twos, like defensively is pretty solid. Are we, are we, are we scooting past him, no pun intended, too quickly?
- [36:02]
B
We might be scooting a little fast. I would say in particular, just if his last month, month and a half had gone differently, if you had kind of inverted his season where he was rising by the end instead of falling by the end, because in part because of this back injury and the lingering effects of it, he might feel like a shoe in. And maybe that's something we need to interrogate a little more. I think it's a totally fair point.
- [36:23]
A
All right, let's take a break and we'll talk more about the top of the league, Luka Doncic, Austin Reeves, the Lakers, and what the hell happens now? The Zach Lowe show is brought to you by FanDuel. Tonight could be your night. The game's on, the NBA stars are out, and FanDuel is giving new customers a shot to level up fast. That's right. New customers get $250 in bonus bets. If your first $5 bet wins, FanDuel is the best place to bet your favorite NBA players. Build a same game parlay or try live betting. Head to FanDuel.com low to get in on the action. Play your game with FanDuel, official sports betting partner of the NBA 21 or over in select states or 18 or over in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Bonus bets are non withdrawable and expired seven days after a seat restrictions apply. See terms@sportsbook.fanduel.com gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAM. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org ChatInCut this episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra, the official beer of the NBA. Part of why we all love watching the game is the superior talent on the court. Spurs, Pistons, Wembanyama getting knocked all over the floor. Cade's hip checking them. Paul Reed's elbowing him. Jalen Dern's going right at him and he just gets up and gives it back and has six of the most spectacular blocks you will ever see a player have, including one of the best I've ever seen on Cade Cunningham at the rim, leading the spurs to a statement win on the road. That's why we watch the NBA, to see guys like that do things like that. But superior plays aren't just for the NBA. Try Michelob Ultra, a superior light beer with only 95 calories. Even better, with Michelob Ultra you could win courtside seats. Ooh, and more. Michelob Ultra Superior is worth playing for. Enter now at michelobultro.com Courtside McGlobaltra Courtside 25 to 26 no purchase necessary. Open U.S. residents 21 or over. Begins on October 1, 2025 and ends on June 30, 2026. Multiple entry periods. See official rules@mcglobalultro.com Courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes and details. Okay, before we talk about the Lakers, I just want to clarify something important from the first segment of the podcast. The Legally Bl sequel is called Legally Blonde 2 Red, White and Black. Of course. I mean I just Nothing but respect
- [38:44]
B
for my president Zach
- [38:48]
A
okay, Luka Doncic and Austin Reaves both got injured after my last podcast, so I haven't talked much about them. Luka Calf strain Typical recovery time four to six weeks. Austin Reeves Oblique four to six weeks. Luka is flying to Europe and it's flowing to Europe for some sort of injection related treatment to speed up the healing process. There is no timetable like there is no, I've asked around to Lucas people, to Lakers people about like if, if this works, what is like can he play in the first round? Can he play in the middle of the first round? There's no timetable like that. There's no, there's nothing set in stone. They're just going to see what happens. The implications I actually let's start with the team implications because the Lakers go from very scary third seed to now Denver's actually in third and the Lakers are probably the Lakers without Luka and Reeves are like indisputably now the Western Conference team that everybody wants to play in the first round. And if they are to fall, they have Oklahoma City tonight. Jalen Williams is not playing Warriors Sons Jazz and they have the tiebreaker over Denver if they fall to four. And Denver's remaining games are Memphis, Oklahoma City, San Antonio. We'll see how those two teams, the last two actually try. And Oklahoma City, if they really wanted to, could try to get Denver into the third seed by beating the Lakers tonight. Now they're sitting J Dub so they're playing at semi honest and then laying down against the Nuggets and helping the Nuggets win. And that would set up Oklahoma City perfectly because it would put lakers Houston in the 4, 5 side of the bracket and it would set up what is an absolute nightmare for the Nuggets. Like as much as incredible as Jokic has been, as magical as this Jamal Murray season has been, as amazing as Aaron Gordon has looked since his return, as like Cam Johnson as Cam Johnson has finally looked for the last six weeks of the season, even put in a Peyton Watson return to full health at some point to go through Minnesota at 6, if that's what it ends up being. And there are three games out of Houston tiebreaker tbd one head to head game. They have to go Minnesota, San Antonio, Oklahoma City just to get to the finals.
- [41:03]
B
That's fucking wild.
- [41:04]
A
Given how Minnesota has played them pretty well over the past three seasons combined. Now it's 3.1Denver this season. That is. That just may be too hellacious a road test the Finals for the Nuggets. It just might be too hard. But anyway, the Lakers, I just, it's not fun to say without those two guys, their two best players, like the Rockets would be absolutely delighted to play them in the first round. It would probably like all of a sudden be like, hey, we're in the second round of the playoffs. Maybe this whole team is actually working well.
- [41:31]
B
Yeah, it's tough to See this become of the Lakers after we were waiting for something to click for them all season and as you said, they finally hit that level and now they are just like blood in the water of the shark den of the Western Conference. I wish that there were some other option. I wish that there were even a path to hope that Luka or Austin could rush back and be effective. What makes me hesitant to even believe that there's even that is not only these particular injuries, which both soft tissue, both very difficult to recover from quickly. The timelines are what they are for a reason. There are also two specific injuries that hit those exact guys right where they live in play. And the idea of Luka Doncic having a hamstring injury, one of our great, like, start and stop staccato drivers. I don't know how you do that without a hamstring. And for Austin Reese, someone who's like so good at driving and twisting and contorting his way into scoring attempts, having an oblique injury, not just painful to get hit in those spots, but like really limits your mobility and your flexibility and trying to do the exact things that Austin Reeves does well. So they feel pretty doomed at this point and they feel like kind of a. Like a free space on the playoff bracket, which is not where I was hoping to be going in, to say the least.
- [42:40]
A
No. If they were the third seed playing Minnesota the way they were playing, that went from a series that was like a month and a half ago, I would have been 70, 30 Minnesota. Then it was like 64. Now it's like kind of coin toss. Like Luka is that good in playing that scary a brand of basketball on both ends of the floor and he's playing like that. I don't think they can win three playoff series into the west considering the gauntlet we just talked about Denver having to potentially go through. But one or even two is like not out of bounds. If Luka is playing like that consistently every single game.
- [43:10]
B
Well, especially for the Minnesota matchup, like, he's still in Rudy Gobert's nightmares after the shot he hit over the Wolves with the Mav. So, like, that is a guy. If I were the Wolves, I would want absolutely no part of. And it looks like they're going to be fortunate enough to not have to worry about it.
- [43:25]
A
They're going to have to. They're going to be fortunate enough to play the Nuggets in the first round of the playoff.
- [43:29]
B
It's not ideal. Well, do you want to talk about the Nuggets path some more because like how. I don't know that they have like a lot of wiggle room. Obviously they could get creative and brazen in terms of trying to manipulate the standings if they want to, but I feel like you got it. It's really dangerous trying to drop because of what it means in terms of getting on that OKC side of the bracket.
- [43:50]
A
Yeah. I talked about this with Bill on Sunday. That, that path that they are staring at now at 3 is so scary that I almost wondered would they try to sort of step back their way into four and just get the Rockets in the first round? That's a series they should win. We agree they should win that series.
- [44:12]
B
I think they might sweep that series if they got it.
- [44:14]
A
Okay, so you hate the Rockets. That's fine. Aggregate that. It's clearly an easier matchup for them than the Timberwolves. Assuming Ant comes back at full health. He's been sick. He's been dealing with some knee soreness. I assume he's going to come back and they'll be Jada McDaniels TBD. Without Jada McDaniels, the Wolves are very different team. So maybe that's kind of what the Nuggets are betting on too, is we're not going to see the full strength Timberwolves the way we normally would. But I talked about this with Bill and his conclusion was I just want to avoid Oklahoma City for as long as possible. I don't. And I'm not convinced. I mean, look, there's only so much that the basketball gods are going to allow you to do without punishing you at some point. I'm not convinced that's right. But at some point you're going to have to play Oklahoma City. But that road is so daunting that I actually might consider. I'd like to just win a first round series and get into like, let's go to Oklahoma City as fresh as possible. And maybe, maybe they also wait longer for Peyton Watson to get back. I think it's a fair question though, that four versus three thing, it depends a little. Like Minnesota is still not totally out on the five seed. They pretty much have to go undefeated the rest of the season at Indiana. Okay. Chalk it up at Orlando. If you can't beat the Magic on the road, even when the Magic have something to play for, that's a big game for both teams. Fine. You should be the sixth seed. At Houston, we'll decide the tiebreaker, I believe between the two teams. It's one one head to head. And at home against The Pelicans four and OH is on the table and one of them would swing the tiebreaker. If I'm reading the tiebreaker stuff right and they and if they do that and Houston has at Suns home to Philly, that Minnesota game and then concludes with Memphis, there's a small chance Minnesota can flip up to 5, which changes this entire equation. And maybe if you're Denver, you just say this is why we just play it out semi.
- [46:03]
B
Honestly, I think there's too many moving parts right now. We'll have to kind of check in later in the week to see if any of these options are even viable. As far as the manipulation goes, I think in terms of the like, do you go for the 4, 5, theoretically the rockets with the Thunder side of the bracket or do you take this hellacious path? I kind of err towards the hellacious path, as difficult and daunting as it seems. In part, I would say for one thing the Nuggets are good enough and close enough. They should be thinking about this in terms of championship path. Like I think they're they can and will beat the majority of their first round opponents, including Minnesota, which this is not quite the same Wolves team that beat the Nuggets. And in particular the size difference in shifting from Cat to Randall I think is a meaningful overall and just some
- [46:52]
A
something in the last six weeks has always been off. It's been a long Randall slump, then an ant injury slash illness, then like you know, Jada McDaniel's hurt. It's just, it's just, there's just too much off right now.
- [47:03]
B
Yes, the side eyes that go bare like there's just so much happening internally within the team with the Wolves that I would feel okay going into that matchup if I'm the Nuggets and I just think the Thunder are so good. You stave that off as long as humanly possible and you hope for even just like a tweak in the matchup that could help until things in your favor, a slight injury, a guy out of rhythm, a difficult preceding series where they really have to work for it, where they don't expect to. And I think this, you know, this game ultimately like the physicality advantage that the Nuggets have with the spurs too. I would feel okay about that going into a series and a matchup like that if I was Denver. It's not ever something you feel confident about given how good the spurs are and have been. But I do think the Nuggets could have their number and I think they could Teach them some things in a run like this one.
- [47:49]
A
I think that's the key point. Number one, I've always been of the school of thought that I want to avoid the best team for as long as possible and just give me the chance that someone on that team tweaks an ankle. Now, I also extend the possibility that someone on my team tweaks an ankle. But, you know, I got to take some chances. In this case. Peyton Watson gets more recovery time before facing Oklahoma City. And I think they will need him to beat the two best teams in the West. And if you believe, and I think the Nuggets have reason to believe, like, hey, the spurs on paper are almost as good as the Thunder. They're a 60 plus win juggernaut. Like we should in theory think of them almost like the Thunder, but they're not champions and we've beaten them twice in a row. They haven't been comfortable wins, they've been very stressful and they have this alien who runs around and does stuff to mess up our offense. But Jokic has been pretty fucking dominant in those games. I wouldn't say he feels comfortable against Wembanyama because, you know, nobody does. And Wembanyama, Big Boyd, him on a couple of blocks, like, oh, the ball didn't even get out of your hand. Sorry, three time mvp. I just treated you like Billy Madison treats a fifth grader. But he's been pretty goddamn dominant. And the rest of the team is kind of clicking right now. Even Brown, Christian Brown had a good game. They're still figuring out like, do we play Valanchunas, do we not play Valentunas? All that stuff. But I think you're right to identify the spurs as a team that the Nuggets, like, we feel, we don't feel great because it's not great. But we're not treating that as like we have to avoid them.
- [49:24]
B
Right?
- [49:26]
A
Can we talk about Luka for a bit?
- [49:27]
B
Absolutely.
- [49:29]
A
So he's at 64 games. He's going to finish at 64 games. You may have heard that you have to get to 65 games. He missed two games to be in Slovenia for the birth of his daughter. Based on that, his agency, Bill Duffy, etc. Are going to appeal to the arbitration process, whatever it is. This is all. It's always great when prestigious NBA honors come down to legal processes. It's always a great sign with like, I guess let's get in a conference room and hash this out with a judge, like an agreed upon judge or panel of judges. God, Knows. I don't even know what the hell.
- [50:10]
B
The thing is, Zach, I know what you're talking about. I know we're talking about the merits of all these awards. I love talking about extraordinary circumstances. It's my favorite thing in the entire world.
- [50:18]
A
Should we just read from the cba? Imagine if I did an Andy Kaufman thing where I just, like, I'm going to read four pages of CBA language now. And my initial reaction was, I fucking hope they appeal. I hope they win. Because, like, two games for the birth of your daughter feels like extraordinary circumstances. Like, that feels like kind of what the. What the. It feels like it should fall under that. And I also want to test the NBA. I want the NBA's lawyers to have to get in a room and be like, you know what? Adam Silver stood up at the board of governors meeting when Kate Cunningham got a collapsed lung and said, the 65 game rule is working as intended. I'm not sure one player's case should really be a demerit against the rule. Stars are playing more, kind of, okay, and it's working. I want to see them go in that room and be like, oh, you know what? I'm not sure we should bend the rule for another player, because the rule in general is working. You wanted to see the birth of your daughter. Oh, wow. What a great parent you are, Luka Doncic. Judge. Objection. Objection to parenthood. Objection to fatherhood. We stand by our 65 game rule. We don't want Luca eligible. I want them to have to publicly make that argument. And then a little birdie inside my head was like, well, look, isn't this kind of what the rule is supposed to do? Like punish fathers? No, no, no, no. Just play it out with me. If you miss some games due to injury and you miss one game because you were suspended for accumulating too many technical fouls when we kind of rescinded one already and gave you a chance to get off scot free, then your margin for anything happening in life shrinks to zero. And this is kind of what happens. I think that's an argument that the league could make without feeling completely ashamed of itself. Where would you fall is arbitrator. We might as well appoint you, Judge Rob, how would you rule in this case?
- [52:21]
B
Thank you for this hallowed responsibility. I mean, I would rule to make him eligible because it's fucking bullshit that he's not. But the rule is also fucking bullshit. Like, I think where I have a problem is, I don't know, in the grand scheme of human life, A collapsed lung might be even more extraordinary circumstances than the birth of a child. Like, if we're just talking probabilistically, I understand, like, within the realm of basketball injury, these things do happen.
- [52:48]
A
So you're. You're representing Cunningham, too. You're calling Kate Cunningham to the stand, who fell on him in that game, and Colleco, call that guy to the stand, too.
- [52:55]
B
It's a great question. We need to get some more. Some more eyewitness accounts of everything.
- [52:59]
A
If Luca had a doula called a doula to the stand. Call, Call. Call the. Call the ob GYN to the stand. Let's. Let's have a real trial here.
- [53:07]
B
I just think all these guys should be eligible because ultimately there are no circumstances in which, if this rule did not exist, you and I would be sitting here saying, Luka Doncic should not be first team all NBA based off the season he's had. And I understand how the rule came to be. I understand a lot of us even kind of talking ourselves into it based on what the state of the league was at that point. But to say we've gone off the rails doesn't even cover the half of it. Like, this rule has spun out into a totally different thing where the shape of all NBA, the shape of the MVP bout, the shape of defensive player of the year, now is in jeopardy, all because of a technicality that doesn't really solve much of anything.
- [53:46]
A
I agree with you. If our judge and jury in this case, I would rule Luca eligible, I would trigger the extraordinary circumstances clause of the very exciting CBA portion about the 65 game rule, and I would vote for Luca to be eligible. And I hope he is eligible. He deserves to be. And this has been my beef with the rule all along. It's why my very first reaction to it was, can you at least give me flexibility on third team if you're going to be unyielding on first and second team and all these other awards? By the way, why is 65 games doesn't apply for 6 Man of the year?
- [54:17]
B
Yes.
- [54:17]
A
But it does apply for most improved player. Why? What's the logic behind that? Why does it even apply for? I just. It doesn't. Anyway. It's because, let me be a voter with a brain and say, hey, yeah, let's just say Luka played 58 games. Yeah, Luka in 58 games. If all I can do is put him on third team, all NBA, because that's as strict as you can be, let me put him on third team, all NBA instead of going through this list of like Scotty Barnes, Denny Abdia, like what are we doing? Like it's Luka Doncic. Okay, let's switch gears. Speaking of injuries, Sham, Strania dropped another huge Giannis dysfunction Bucks story. This has been playing out in the media now for a couple of weeks. Giannis wants to play, says he's healthy enough to play. The Bucks have not medically cleared him to play. The NBA is investigating this, which means talking to Bucks officials, talking to Giannis, talking to his agent, talking to Bucs doctors, like, what the hell is going on? They have found, among other things, that the Bucks apparently asked them to participate in a three on three workout scrimmage, something and Giannis declined, which the Bucks are citing as evidence that he's being disingenuous. And on and on we go to another summer where there's another reckoning. And I'll just read from the Sham story. This is blah, blah, blah, blah blah. It's why Antetokounmpo reiterated to the Bucs for a few months before the February 5th trade deadline that he was prepared to be moved. He declined to publicize a trade request, but he made it clear to all parties involved behind the scenes that he felt both sides needed to move on immediately as the franchise was not in position to compete. Quote, giannis has wanted to handle this professionally by being very upfront with the team. One source with direct knowledge of the situation said, I wonder which side of this that source is on. This could have been a happy resolution, but instead might end up being a nasty breakup. This is so dumb that has reached this point. I don't even understand what's happening anymore. That's how dumb it is. First of all, he declined to publicize a trade request, but he made it clear to all parties involved that he felt both sides needed to move on immediately. Just the strangulation of the English language continues to reach epic levels. Giannis misread this so completely, it feels like he's trying to wage a perception war that he had already won and he didn't need to wage it at all. And battle number one was this impossible limbo he's trying to do of I never actually requested a trade, but my people are going to continue to leaking that. I continue to leak that I told the Bucks that it's time to move on, but I never publicly requested a trade. If he had just publicly requested a trade and said, hey, I gave it my all, we gave it our all, we had a tremendous run, it's clearly reached its end I want to compete for a title in my Twilight, my mid-30s, whatever. No one is begrudging that. Nobody. There may be like a 5% of Bucks fans who are pissed. That's it. No one's begrudging it. Similarly, I don't know what the fight he's doing now with this. I want to play. What point is he trying to prove? He's been injured five times this year, including repetitive calf injuries. There is no rational team anywhere in the world in any circumstance similar to the Bucs that would play this player for six meaningless games at the end of the season. And it's not about tanking. It's a little bit about tanking because they get the lesser of. What is it, their pick or the Pelicans? Pick.
- [57:57]
B
Sure.
- [57:58]
A
It's all about if we have to trade this guy and he pops an achilles in game 81 when we're 11 games back and Doc Rivers is giving bizarre speeches in the locker room about how he's done this and that with previous teams and Kyle Kuzma's tuning him out and this is happening. Whatever. It's an organizational catastrophe and they can't afford it. He surely knows that. And it feels like I said this right away three weeks ago. It feels like he's trying to make the Bucks look like the bad guy by holding him out. And he just didn't need to do any of this. He looked like a good guy the entire time. The whole situation is completely absurd that we now have NBA investigators looking into medical records, theoretically, anyway, and seeing who's healthy and who's not. And was there a three on three script marriage? Was there not? It's absolutely absurd. The Bucks are totally justified in not playing him. Giannis probably understands that. His agent probably understands that. They're trying to use that, I think, as a cudgel to make the Bucks look bad. The whole situation is completely ridiculous.
- [58:56]
B
It's ridiculous, and I think both sides are heavily to blame. Like the Bucks have bungled this entire situation, too. I don't want to excuse them of responsibility in this. They held on too tightly to something that should have been resolved a long time ago, have forced themselves into a difficult corner as a result, talk themselves in and out of various deal permutations along the way. It's been a whole mess. But Giannis's refusal to be the bad guy in particular, I think has been just a horrible miscalculation of what it means to be a superstar. And specifically, he had all of this goodwill and I think the fear to lose it just erased the possibility in his mind that having all that goodwill means you get to ask for the thing like having all of that built up trust and respect and relationship with the city of Milwaukee. That's what allows you, when the time comes to say, you know what, we've had a great run. I've loved playing here, but I do want to compete in the way you outlined. And he deserves that and it warrants it. I just think you can tell in the way that he's operated. And this is, this is me putting thoughts in Giannis's head, but I think it's consistent with everything he's done. It's very clearly important to him to be like, of a place, to belong to, a city. And I think there are a lot of stars who have looked around and seen Kevin Durant and James Harden. These guys who's been MVPs and now are like men without countries. And for some people, that matters. And I think Giannis is one of these players for whom that clearly matters. But the way it's played out, I think it's respectable to try to be professional about your job and show up and continue to try to play. I understand it from a certain perspective, but the way he's gone about all this doesn't feel like being professional. It feels like being two faced about the entire situation, about channeling behind closed doors for what you really want and then coming out and saying, I am a buck. I'm trying to play for this team, of pushing for the trade and then going on Twitter and posting like the fucking Wolf of Wall Street. I'm staying. Memes like, you can't have it all of these ways at once, no matter how desperately you try to.
- [60:55]
A
And I can empathize with, I think based on his public comments and what I've heard about him for years and years, there's a big part of him that wants to be Dirk Nowitzki and Kobe Bryant and a one team guy for his city. And that's totally admirable. This is a city that took him in. It's a city that nurtured him when his father passed away. Suddenly they've signed both his brothers. It's his home. I get that completely. So just, if you, if that's what you want, you just have to do that, then you just have to be like a one team guy. And he clearly wants that. And to contend that bridge has been burned for a long time now. This team was dead on arrival coming in. And to your point about the Bucks, they did hold on Too long. And that's last summer, summer before, whenever you want to say it, they did this disaster wave and Stretch Dame signed Miles Turner, who I nominated with Bill as he was going to skip in his awards, fake awards thing, least valuable player of the year. And in his mind, the least valuable player of the year was just kind of like worst player or like biggest, most audacious tank commander. And I was like, I thought about it as super highly paid player that's supposed to help you win, that you've sacrificed a ton of flexibility for. And I nominated Miles Turner as least valuable player of the year. I can't remember a single thing Miles Turner did the entire season. I mean, he made a lot of threes, he shot, he shooting 38% on threes. I just don't remember anything that happened that was relevant. And he's averaging 11 points, 10 points a game, something like that.
- [62:27]
B
And between his salary and Dames, that's a max slot, effectively that he's taking
- [62:31]
A
up for a team that does not control its first round pick until 2031 going forward, which is a disaster in and of itself. And why we've always talked about is there some way to triangulate this eventual trade where they recoup some of their own picks and that's why Portland is looming over here. Not necessarily. Maybe as a Yanis destination, although Bill brought that up the other day. But just as a. Can we facilitate something because we have some, some of the Milwaukee draft equity. I just think this situation is completely ridiculous on all levels. The Bucks clearly were like half in, half out. Should we trade them? Should we not? Shams has details in there about how they wouldn't return calls for like days at a time. I've heard the same thing. I had one team describe it to me, one team that was in it till the end describe it to me as. Even though we kind of thought we were in it, they never gave us a specific list of items that would get the deal done. That's when, you know, this person told me that a deal is doable when you get like, this is the price point that we'll execute it at. And they never did that. And it's like, so I don't know, what are you doing? You're going to come back in the off season, maybe the offers will be better, maybe the Knicks flame out, maybe the Rockets flame out. Whatever it is. I don't know how the Knicks can build a better offer. But I just. The whole thing is sort of. It's really bizarre to me, like Every one of these stories that comes out, the union's releasing a press release, the league's releasing a press release. Giannis is talking about, he's using breakfast metaphors and he's using marriage metaphors. Like, the whole thing is just completely
- [63:56]
B
bizarre and wholly avoidable. I'm really curious in kind of the grand scheme of history, when we, 20 years from now, look back on this, how people think about it. Because I realized with enough time, even Vince Carter can go back to Toronto and get, you know, the video treatment and the tears and have an emotional moment, like people do tend to forget, and things get softened over time. This isn't a PR disaster for Giannis yet, but it's left everybody in such a bad spot and it's getting uglier and uglier. And frankly, I hope the lesson in this for everybody operating in the league is the longer you wait, the uglier it gets. And with a player like Giannis, I completely get the instinct to want to exhaust all possible options before you have to trade a player like that. But sometimes you have to get ahead of it. And you can't say that there weren't signs periodically, regularly, every single step of the way for now, like two and a half straight years.
- [64:53]
A
I do think, as nightmarish as this seems now, and the sham story is clearly just like, you know, there's anonymous quotes about it being so toxic about, you know, and. And about Doc Rivers rubbing some players the wrong way about.
- [65:08]
B
I've never heard that before.
- [65:10]
A
Kyle Kuzma, Ryan Rollins and Kevin Porter Jr. Sort of reacting together to the coaching staff, insinuating that the two young guards had been playing a little bit selfishly. And all of this mess, I do think. And they're going to be a mess, right, because they don't control their draft picks. And they're going to be bad if and when Giannis leaves, of course. So it's going to be messy. And I think Doc Rivers future is in question. I said last week he's not going to walk away from the money because he's got a year left of big money. So they're either going to fire him and pay him, or he's not going to walk away. And I think John Horst future has to be put in question as well as the gm. But I do think there's a way for this all to calm down and for it to end normally and amicably. And that's no noise for a while. Whatever happens in the playoffs, happen. The Bucks make a trade, or maybe they extend them. Like it seems like it's totally impossible that they would do that.
- [66:07]
B
Zach, I can't handle it if they do it.
- [66:10]
A
Please don't they trade him. And as sort of unrobust as some of the offers were going to be for Giannis compared to five picks for Mikhail Bridges and all these blockbuster trades that you want to comp it to, they're going to get real stuff for him because there are going to be multiple teams interested. And you know, just like even though the reported offer that Shams talked about of hero Khalil Ware and a bunch of picks and swaps, that's like something. And it's they're going to get some good stuff for him. He's going to go out and so like the fans will be like, well, at least we got this for Giannis and he'll go in somewhere where he can win and I think it'll all be fine and everyone will give good press conferences. Okay, any final thoughts on this before we take one last break?
- [66:50]
B
Just along those lines, I do think they're going to get back real things for him, but for the state of the Bucks right now and how untenable this feels as far as rolling into another season goes, I think we're at the point where closure might outweigh optimal value. Like, you just have to move on.
- [67:08]
A
Speaking of. And also like, fresh slate may mean fresh slate across the board organizationally, because you're clearly going into a new era once you trade Giannis, because there's just not a lot in the cupboard right now. We don't need to go back and look at the draft misses, the trades and this and that. All right, speaking of closure, we'll take one more break, we'll do two more quick topics and then we're this episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. When you pull off a superior play, like blocking a winning shot to push the game into overtime, it feels good. It even gives you shivers sometimes. All the best moments are served ice cold like that. Just like Michelob Ultra, the official beer partner of the NBA, Ultra is a superior light beer with only 95 calories and a crisp, refreshing taste. And you know what makes it even more superior? Michelob Ultra is giving fans like you the chance to win some incredible prizes, including quartzide seat tickets. Michelob Ultra Superior is worth playing for. Enter now at michelobultra.com courtside Michelob Ultra Courtside 25 to 26 no purchase necessary. Open US Residence 21 or over. Begins on October 1, 2025 and ends on June 30, 2026. Multiple entry periods. See official rules@micheloboltra.com courtside for free entry, entry deadlines for prizes and details.
- [68:15]
C
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- [69:48]
A
All right, Speaking of closure, the Chicago Bulls who still exist, they're still in the NBA. They have a roster full of players. They participate in games every NBA night, fired their front office of Arturis Carnesovis and Mark Eversley. Michael Reinsdorf released a statement about you know we got to move forward and they have $60 million in cap space. They control all of their picks. They have a semi real semi fake. First coming from the Blazers which if you go way back and trace it its origins, it's a lottery protected pick that is the only thing of value that they got when they traded Lowry Markkanen Another sell low move. This has been nothing short of a disaster it's more than a disaster. It is. They have become the laughingstock of the NBA, the most depressing franchise outside of Sacramento. More depressing in a lot of ways because they're the Chicago Bulls. They are a worldwide mega brand. They are the Alan Parsons project blaring to starting introductions. They are legendary and iconic. They have recently actually had good teams, whereas the Kings had like a blip of a good team in the last 20 years. And that's gone. I talked with Bill about, do you think Devonta Sabonis just cries before going to bed every night?
- [71:04]
B
Wouldn't you
- [71:08]
A
imagine I could see his wife being like, domas, are you watching YouTube videos again of you lighting the beam from three. Stop. Just stop. Come to bed, Domas. I just. The original sin of all of this, and I've used that phrase many times before, was the Vuchevich trade, which I hated the moment it happened. Two first round picks, one of which became Franz Wagner, could have been any number of good players. And Wendell Carter Jr. Who, speaking of selling low on Lowry Markkanen, they sold low on the other half of their young big man pairing because Wendell Carter Jr. From minute one in Orlando outplayed Nikola Vucevic. Just alone outplayed him. And then just, they had the wonderful team for half a half a season with Lonzo and DeRozan and Levine, and that fell apart. And I'm not sure how real that ever was. And then every trade they made to get off of those guys, the pattern was another team gets the good stuff. So they trade a first round pick to get DeMar DeRozan, plus some other stuff from the spurs to the Spurs. And then when they finally sign and trade DeRozan to the Kings, it's the San Antonio freaking Spurs who get the actual value in the trade because they get the Kings pick swap in 2031 for absorbing Harrison Barnes, who has been better than Nicole Vucevich, and maybe, maybe even then Demar DeRozan in the context of what drives winning on a good team, it's arguable, yeah, that trade happened. They trade for Zach Levine, take it for what you know, take for what it's worth. They trade Jimmy Butler, get Zach Levine, they extend Zach Levine for a million gazillion dollars, they trade him to Sacramento in the De' Aaron Fox 3 team trade. And again it's other teams getting the good stuff in the trade. Notably, the Kings got draft picks. The Bulls did get Kevin Herder, and Trey Jones has been good. They trade Kevin Herder for Jaden Ivey that situation has gone sideways. That may have actually been the last straw. Patrick Williams over Devin Vassell. Tyrese Caliburn. Also the next picks in that draft were Okoro Toppin and Killian Hayes. So just be careful using that as just a sledgehammer over the front office. What is a sledgehammer is the five year, $90 million contract.
- [73:16]
B
That's the one.
- [73:17]
A
He was a candidate for my least valuable player in the league because I just don't even know he just exists now. He's like a shade floating around the court. Take an open three once every six minutes. Just does nothing. And he's making $90 million over five years. We don't need to get into it. They sold low on everybody. They. Two of their success stories as a front office are Kobe White and I Odysseumu. And they were like, you know what? We don't even. We're not interested in paying you guys. We're just going to trade you for whatever we can get. And congratulations, Charlotte and Minnesota, you've gotten two quality players who may be on your teams going forward. Just, they have no direction, no anything. They have Matos Fuselas. Thank God they have Matas. Seriously, they did. I should mention in that de' Aaron Fox pick, the one good thing they did get was control of their first round pick last year. Hooray. Hooray. And even Giddy. I was like a. I, I didn't think that was a good trade for the Bulls, but I didn't think it was as bad as the consensus was because Giddy was going to come and put up numbers and maybe be interesting. He's been fine. He's had a bad last six weeks of the season. Is he ever going to be a top 35 player in the NBA? I don't know. Now he's paid appropriately, given that status. And so it's time. It was time. This is a pivotal offseason. With all that cap space, I would have had no faith in how they were going to use it. And here's the thing. If they're serious about being the Chicago Bulls again, if you talk to Arturis and Eversley today, they would probably say, honestly, we were doing the bidding of an ownership group that doesn't care, that just wants to make money, that is happy to be in the Play in tournament every year. And so we aimed our transactions at that. If this team wants to get serious, ownership has to spend money. But more than that, they have to let someone come in and do whatever the hell they want, including just Whatever, any direction you want to go. I talked to maybe six months, a year ago, I talked to a front office free agent who, let's just say, would have his pick of any job, most jobs, if they came open. And he said to me, what would you do if you were me? Like, what job intrigues you? And I said, whoever saves the Chicago Bulls will be a legend in the NBA forever.
- [75:33]
B
Oh, and in Chicago, I mean, you won't pay for a shot of Malort for the rest of your life.
- [75:38]
A
Guess who still does it? Tom Thibodeau. And he hasn't coached the team in like 10 years. And because it's the Bulls and they become so moribund and so nothing and so just completely forgotten in the NBA ecosystem. And he, and he said to me, that sounds great in theory, like, I don't trust the ownership. And so that's where we. I don't really have anything else to say. It's just, I can't believe we're here. And it starts at the Vuchevic trade. I didn't like that trade, and it was way worse than I thought it was going to be.
- [76:05]
B
Well, but even in that framing, treating the voodoo trade as the original sin, I think misses the motivating factor. Right? It's like the drive to be in that mediocre play in zone at all costs. Slash, not really care about building a sustainable foundation of a team if that means giving up some ticket revenue in a season or two. And all of the concerns about the Bulls bottoming out are so weird to me because that is a fan base that does show up. That's a fan base that despite all of this, continues to care about this team. And they've been given every reason not to. Like, they're adults a lot of the time. I mean, there's kids involved too, but like, they can handle a season or two of bottoming out, tanking, however you want to think about it. That's what it takes to ultimately build something that feels sustainable. But instead, this particular front office spent six years untangling the mediocrity they built themselves into. And I say that because they were propping it up every step of the way, just reaching and striving for the play in and hoping they got the eighth seed. And this is where you end up like, you just. It sours everyone on the experience. You look around at the roster, there is nothing sustainable. Yet another case. I mean, speaking of teams holding on too long, of just waiting and waiting and waiting around every valuable player on the roster, to the point that when you do trade them it's for two second round picks instead of what could have been a first or could have
- [77:26]
A
been a second is played like did he do one memorable thing for the Bulls before he got injured and he's expiring contract. So all these like Colin Sexton, he's been productive for the Bulls. To what end? He's gonna be on the team next year.
- [77:37]
B
To what end? And I think of all the moves you outlined, drafting Pat Williams is bad but maybe defensible at 4. Like you can talk yourselves in self into the outline of that player giving him the $90 million deal with a player option want to make it very clear because you don't want to run.
- [77:55]
A
I forgot about the.
- [77:55]
B
I mean when you get the chance to get Pat Williams a player option you have to do it. I mean it is a. That extension is a misunderstanding of the player. It is a complete misread of the market and it is doubling down on your own bad mistakes in a way that I think is representative of the flaw in the process here, which is yeah, maybe you're getting a top down edict where you have to compete in a particular way or you're not allowed to do this or that. Like it is an ownership problem in Chicago. It's also an execution problem. And the way this team has been run for six years is just like not acceptable by NBA standards.
- [78:27]
A
Well, look, and they're going to try to interview whoever they interview if they want the best people. The best people are going to go in there and ask the questions of are you going to spend money or are you going to let me do whatever I want to do? Because if the answer is to either one of those is no, they're not going to get the best people. I will say to your like in all this hoopla about tanking right now, it should be noted that trying to win and even aiming for 45 wins is not on its face unadmirable. It's kind of actually admirable because you can actually get to 45 wins and if you are smart and well run, you can get from there to 50 something wins with one or two moves. The problem is the Bulls aimed in the wrong places. And then when it was clear that they had aimed in the wrong places, they didn't quite know even if they wanted to stay at 40 wins or 45 wins, they didn't know how to execute that while remaining interesting and on an upward trajectory. And now it's left them tanking too late. They are tanking and they're in the ninth slot in the lottery and they're hoping for a Cooper flag, Derrick Rose style lottery Gods miracle. Like it's not trying to be in the middle is not on its face. It's certainly not the most under the current incentive system, the most like highest bang for the buck strategy. But there are way we've seen teams sort of hang around, hang around, hang around, make a couple moves and suddenly you're like the Raptors in the Kyle Lowry and DeMar DeRozan and you're actually pretty good and kind of fun. They just didn't execute the first or the middle moves very well.
- [80:00]
B
Well also I think what they did to get to the middle, like the idea of winning those kinds of like middle seeds or middle spots with dignity I think is predicated on oh, we're doing this. But the players we have are young and up and coming and when given the chance to have that breakthrough, they're going to be ready for it. Trading for demar, trading for Vuch, trading for Zach lavine. In its way those are not moves made with like oh, there is a vision of upside here. It's like we are desperately propping up a collapsing house and the second you try to move anything around to actually construct something, it's all going to fall apart. So I, I just think it was a flawed design even by those standards.
- [80:38]
A
Last topic, all rookie teams which you have released. You're all rookie teams and we'll compare notes on this because it's actually kind of getting interesting. This is more interesting than usual. I'm usually just scrounging for spots nine and 10. The last two spots on the second team, your first team, we'll just call them the big four because they're in con VJ flag Harper and Ace Bailey, which is. He has to be on one of the all rookie teams. You put him first team, completely respectable. Your second team is Maxime Renaud, Cedric Coward, Derek Queen, Ryan Kalkbrenner and Colin Murray Boyles, which I really liked. I said this when I did this a couple weeks ago. He's going to be one of the 10 best rookies from this class and is playing winning basketball right now for the Raptors. He's just at like 1100 minutes and I. Second team, all rookie. Fine, 1100 minutes, who cares?
- [81:32]
B
Put him in.
- [81:33]
A
I don't know if he would make my team but he's making a late push for one of those slots. I would go this way and this is a change from when I did, a slight change. I Have the Big Four. I still have Reynaud clinging to the last spot on the first team. I get that the Kings are horrible. I get that his defense is wanting, let's say.
- [81:54]
B
Sure.
- [81:54]
A
He's just been so wildly efficient offensively that I don't feel like. I don't feel like it's fake. It's not fake numbers on a tanking team. But if I think you can make an argument for Ace Bailey, I think that may be the only argument I would consider now. Is Ace Bailey.
- [82:11]
B
I think so. I mean, obviously there was a point in the season when Cedric Coward or Derek Queen would have made sense, but that. That was exactly the debate that I was having with myself of what to do with that last spot. And I think Reynolds a good one. Not only are his numbers not fake, he's like the truest structural thing that the Kings have right now as far as, like, how do you run offense, how do you execute possessions, like getting him the ball? And whether it's running handoffs or in the post or whatever that looks like on a given possession, I feel pretty good about that in a way. I don't feel good about almost anything else the Kings are doing.
- [82:41]
A
And I've talked a lot about Ace Bailey already. I've really enjoyed his rookie season. We can agree to disagree. Those are the last two for first team. You put Ace, I put Renault. I could flip flop tomorrow right now. Second team, Ace Bailey, which we agree on. I mean, you have him first. I have whatever. Derek Queen, Cedric Coward, who would have been fifth on my all rookie ballot, my. My fifth first team guy midway through this, he's just missed too many games, but he's got to be here. And then your last two spots, you went CMB and Kalkbrenner. I've had Kalkbrenner penciled in all year. He's starting to lose minutes to the Grant Williams at center lineups, which strikes me as a Hornets. Like, we're starting to get serious now, and we trust Moussa and we do trust you, Ryan Kalkbender. You do what you do very well. You. You finish around the rim and you protect the rim on defense. But Grant William has been so good. Let's try to go small ball a little bit. And there's been a couple of games where his second half minutes have been very, very limited. So I actually swapped him out against my. Against my soul because he's been doing meaningful stuff on an actual good team. Jeremiah Fierce has always been on my second team, so I kept him in I think he's done enough real basketball stuff on a competitive team for the last couple months. A lot of points, a lot of assists, shooting percentage. Not so bad. And I'm putting Will Riley on my second team. All rookie.
- [84:04]
B
Hell yeah.
- [84:05]
A
Ahead. Ahead of Ryan Kalkbrenner. People are not watching the Wizards. You should not watch the Wizards. It is a hazard to your mental health. But now, and he's had a couple of games where he's put up like 12 points in the last two minutes of garbage time games. So take that for what it's worth. The stuff he's doing is like legit. He's been efficient. He's 68 or 6 9. He has like a herky jerky hesitation spinning dribbling handle thing that is very hard for other teams to grasp. He's a good passer, loves little wraparound pass to his big man on the pick and roll. Can make like some pretty decent pick and roll reads. Can shoot over smaller guys. Defensively, look, he's not good. No rookies are really good. He has the tools to be good. I think this lasts like six weeks to two months. I think he actually deserves an all rookie spot. And as much as it hurts me to demote Kalkbrenner and CMB to off my second team, I went ace Riley, queen, coward, fierce.
- [85:00]
B
I like the Will Riley pick for many reasons. One in the CMB mold, when you look back at this rookie class, he's going to be one of the standouts among them. And I'm not sure what where he's going to net out in the, in the grand scheme of things. He is a really talented creator. I don't know that he's going to top out at being any kind of star necessarily, but I mean we were talking about the future of the Wizards on group chat and like I think he's going to have a real role for the team next year. The Trae young Anthony Davis version of the Wizards in particular because the herky jerky style, the spot up shooting, I think he kind of makes sense with what they need from supporting role players in a way that to be honest, like even Balakula Bali doesn't sometimes even he, he struggles to kind of fit in even as he's kind of hitting more shots than he was earlier in the season. I'm just super high on Will Riley. I think he has a shake to him that is really hard to replicate and is just clearly valuable to any team that is looking to create mostly from the second side. But honestly I'M open to him being stretched into other capacities too.
- [86:01]
A
46% shooting overall, 34% on threes which considering he's taken a lot of pretty adventurous off the triple threes because who else is going to do it? 53 and a half percent on twos. That's decent shooting efficiency for a young guy in this environment. So I don't, I feel bad for Ryan Kalkbrenner. I'm sorry. Like he's had a great rookie on James. There's other guys. Yeah, but those would be my all rookie picks. Rookie of the year is getting a little frothy. You are going to reveal your picks on group chat later this week. I'm going to give it a little settle because like the 40 point and 50 point games they're feeding him a little bit Cooper flag to try to, to win to try to come from behind like a, like a, like the guy who runs the two mile race and he's like the finishing kick is he's catching up but it's also beneficial and he's doing tons of heavy lifting in a way that Knipple doesn't quite have to do. I had almost slammed the door shut. I'm going to keep it ajar and think a little bit more deeply about it because I think it's an open race. Now I know that Knipple people don't want to hear that. I don't know. But I don't want to spoil your pick Group chat. When, when's your next episode?
- [87:13]
B
We're going to be talking about on Thursday all the rest of the individual awards. So finalizing defensive player of the Year, finalizing mvp. I, I guess as much as we can finalize not knowing who's going to be eligible for those things. But Rookie of the Year among them. It's this one is tough. I, I think the look the con coupe and you know, maybe Will Riley in third race as we're trying to make sense of it.
- [87:33]
A
Whoa, whoa.
- [87:34]
B
Look, I'm not ruling it out at this point. I the the theoretical and philosophical debate about role this year I find to be just utterly fascinating as far as what Cooper is asked to do versus what Khan is asked to do. I find both candidates to be wildly worthy of this particular honor but in slightly different ways. That kind of I think reflects a little bit of what you value as a, as a basketball thinker in mind and pundit potentially but also just what is realistic for these guys in these particular spots.
- [88:06]
A
Yeah, I actually Cooper's been so good in the last Three weeks that I need to. I need to sit with it a little bit more in the last week of the season and saying all that he's not going to make my Rookie of the Year ballot because you only get three and his minutes are not up to where BJ is. Dylan Harper has a chance to be. I mean, I think Cooper clearly has the upside to be the best player in this class. If you told me Dylan Harper were actually five years from now the best player in this class, I would not be that shocked. And I would probably put his upside second among all these guys. Like all. Like just last night, he comes off the bench 7 out of 11, 3 of 4 from 3 or something like that. Just every game is like 17 efficient points, 5 assists, just threes coming up. Like, that dude is scary good and he's not even going to make the Rookie of the Year. He'll make some ballots, but I just think Vijay's played like a thousand more minutes than him and played quite well. That dude is scary also.
- [89:00]
B
Just much better defensively than I kind of expected him to be and even from the first couple of weeks of the season than I thought he was. He's come a long way, even within the course of the season.
- [89:10]
A
I want us one thing on mvp. I know you're not going to reveal your pick. Michael Pina wrote his column touting Jokic's mvp. It was a good column. Jokic has definitely made a strong case. I think he's probably left Wemby at this point, given the minutes gap between them. For number two on my fake ballot, I'm still pretty comfortable. And he leads in like PR and, you know, vorp and whatever the other advanced stat you want to go with, as he always does.
- [89:35]
B
I was waiting for the Schmorfs. You know, you forget the Schmorfs.
- [89:39]
A
He's a great schmorp guy. I've always said that about him. A great schmorp guy. We. No one has to sell Jokic. I just. I'm still pretty comfortable going with Shay because again, I don't need to sell you on Chase. Shooting efficiency, scoring efficiency. Playmaking is not Jokic level. Nobody is. But he's a good playmaker defensively. There's a pretty big chasm between the two of them. Although Jokic's rebounding, I think is a little bit underrated, but he just hasn't been even up to his usual level. I think defensively and Shai has and the advanced stats for all the vorps and storms. I talked about they're pretty close. Estimated plus minus which is a stat I use on dunks and threes, which is very reliable. Other NBA teams use it. Shay's been number one the entire year. You can find other stats. It's close enough that to me last year it was an 18 win gap. It's not going to be that big this year it's like an 11 win gap right now. That's still a lot of goddamn wins. And I just think, you know, at some point, whatever, they finish with 65 wins. Like it's, it's. I, I feel, I feel despite this incredible Jokic run, I feel pretty good with Shea winning MVP again. But you could, you can't go wrong with these four guys. They're all incredible.
- [90:49]
B
There's going to be a handful of guys who are having bonkers historical seasons who are not going to win mvp and we just need to make our peace with that. Like these are going to look like historical aberrations and that's going to be fine. The hairs that we're going to have to parse to like figure out how to like make sense of those advantages. Like the defense I think is a, is a part of it. That's fascinating. If Luca is eligible for this stuff, it's obviously held against him to a point. But he's been improved. Wemby, if he is the unanimous defensive player of the year, like how you're waiting offense versus defense, which is not 5050 but like a significant enough part of the game where it should give him a nice buoy in terms of the race. And I gotta say as Shay's defense goes like I think this is his best defensive season by a significant margin in a way that probably hasn't been discussed enough over the course of the year but. But to me is reaching the point where it is a legitimate like propelling force in the argument for him. It's not just the shot making, it's not just the creation, it's not just what he allows in terms of his teammates roles. He is a legit like maybe even all defense consideration worthy defender right now. And if that's not kind of breaking some ties, I honestly don't know what will.
- [92:05]
A
It's, it's, it's a wonderful race. All four of them are worthy. The Wemby minutes have always been like why I never let like there was people flirting with the. He's the mvp. I never quite got there on Jokic. Another just thought I had watching the Nuggets last night and in a lot of Previous games. A lot has been made of his turnovers going up since he's came back from injury and he's had some like weird on Yokichi turnovers. I do, I do wonder like he had six last night in that overtime game against Portland. The team only had like 12 or 11. And I do wonder if there's like something in the, I'm just test driving this take. As Bill would say, like his turnovers maybe almost spare other people from committing turnovers. Like, like there, there, there's a certain number of turnovers that your team is going to commit no matter what his share of them has grown. I wouldn't say that turnovers been have been like a giant problem for the Nuggets. So I haven't checked their turnover rate in the last like two, three weeks. But I do wonder is he's creating so many advantages with his other passes that go right and sparing other people too much heavy lifting that I wonder if there's something to that. That's all.
- [93:10]
B
I think there absolutely is. At the same time, I do feel like he's been for as dominant as he's played, a little more harried in some situations than I'm used to seeing from him and that's holding his own standard against him. So maybe that's not fair in itself. I want to circle back to the Wemby minutes thing though, because I've been trying to make sense of this too. And I think one thing I'm having trouble with is if it only takes a guy 29 minutes to be dominant and his team to win 60 games, should it matter that he plays less?
- [93:42]
A
It's a great, it's a great like
- [93:44]
B
I, I, I, I guess in theory he could play three more minutes a game. He could have been available for a few more nights here and there to where he's not, you know, borderline for the awards races. But he's been about as good as you could be in those minutes that he's played. And the spurs have been an incredible team all season and I, I, part of me thinks that that's enough.
- [94:06]
A
It's interesting that it just takes that amount of minutes, you know, and they're like plus 6, 50 or something with him on the floor. And a slight minus, I think for the season with him off the floor. Yeah, I mean it's like, you know, Shea has whatever two, 300 minute advantage over him and doesn't play fourth quarters of a million games because they're so good, but, but like he still plays that many minutes. That's an interesting way to look at it. All right, Rob Mahoney, you're going to reveal all these choices to the world with Justin Barrier and Kyle Mann on group chat on Thursday. That's a must. Listen. I can't. I will be listening with suspense. Thank you for your time and thank you for all of your insight today on the Zach Lowe Show.
- [94:48]
B
Thanks for having me, Zach. I appreciate it.
- [94:52]
A
All right, that's it for today's episode of the Zach Lowe Show. We'll be back later this week, as usual with another episode. Thanks to Rob Mahoney, incomparable NBA analyst. Thanks to the great crew Mike, Jonathan and Billy, as usual and thanks to you all for listening to and or watching the Zach Lowe Show. We'll see you next time. 21 are over and President Slow states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over in President D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800- GAMBLER or 1-800-MY-RESET. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatincut or is it mdgamblinghelp.org and Maryland Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24 Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPENY in New York. For Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7867.