Max Extensions, Plus Zach’s WTF Teams With Rob Mahoney and the Debut of Mets Corner With Sean Fennessey

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Zach Lowe Show – "Max Extensions, Plus Zach’s WTF Teams With Rob Mahoney and the Debut of Mets Corner With Sean Fennessey"

Release Date: July 10, 2025
Host: Zach Lowe
Guests: Rob Mahoney, Sean Fennessey
Platform: The Ringer
Frequency: Weekly on Mondays and Thursdays

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1. Player Extensions: Chet Holmgren vs. Devin Booker

Discussion Highlights: Zach Lowe and Rob Mahoney delve into the recent high-profile NBA player extensions, focusing on Chet Holmgren of the Oklahoma City Thunder and Devin Booker of the Phoenix Suns. They analyze the financial implications, contract structures, and potential long-term impacts on their respective teams.

Key Points:

• Chet Holmgren's Extension:

  • Contract Details: Chet Holmgren signed a fully guaranteed five-year max rookie contract extension, valued at approximately $239 million, potentially reaching $250 million.
  • Cap Implications: At 25% of the team's salary cap through the 2029-2030 seasons, Holmgren's contract poses significant financial commitments.
  • Analysis: Rob questions the increase from $239 million to $250 million, suggesting it might be a straight 25% of the cap without additional clauses based on performance metrics like All-NBA selections.

  Rob Mahoney [03:18]: "The Chet Holmgren extension is puzzling... when this contract comes in, it's just a straight 25% of the cap."

• Devin Booker's Extension:

  • Contract Details: Devin Booker secured a two-year extension worth approximately $140-145 million, taking him through the 2029-2030 seasons.
  • Cap Implications: Booker's deal consumes about 35% of the team's salary cap, significantly higher than Holmgren's.
  • Performance Metrics: Booker has demonstrated elite performance, including 40-point games in the NBA Finals and multiple All-NBA team selections.

  Zach Lowe [10:32]: "If you're willing to sign an extension, I get the compulsion. But it makes me queasy, too."

Insights:

• The disparity between Holmgren's and Booker's contracts raises questions about the criteria for max extensions and the balance between young and established stars.

• Rob advocates for a reevaluation of the extension rules to better accommodate long-term investments in elite players.

  Rob Mahoney [14:39]: "It should be more celebratory than that. This is sports. It's about fandom and fun."

Conclusion: The conversation underscores the complexities of NBA salary cap management, emphasizing the need for more nuanced contract structures that recognize player contributions without stifling team flexibility.

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2. Team Building and Cap Implications: Thunder and Suns

Discussion Highlights: Rob Mahoney and Zach Lowe explore the broader implications of player extensions on team dynamics and salary cap flexibility, particularly focusing on the Oklahoma City Thunder and Phoenix Suns.

Key Points:

• Thunder's Financial Reality:

  • With Holmgren's extension and impending deals like Paolo Banchero's, the Thunder face substantial financial commitments.
  • Draft Assets: The Thunder possess multiple draft picks, offering potential flexibility to navigate salary cap constraints.

  Rob Mahoney [23:02]: "They should be able to duck under the tax... the money just becomes overwhelming."

• Suns' Strategic Decisions:

  • The Suns' willingness to commit a large portion of their cap to Booker reflects their confidence in his continued performance.
  • Concerns arise about maintaining team balance and flexibility with such significant financial obligations.

  Rob Mahoney [20:49]: "You pile on top of that. The fact that in those years there's going to be some amount of dead Bradley Beal money."

Insights:

• Teams like the Thunder and Suns must balance star player retention with overall team depth and financial health.
• The extensions highlight a trend of teams prioritizing marquee players, potentially at the expense of broader roster development.

Conclusion: Effective team building in the NBA requires strategic financial planning, ensuring that significant player extensions do not cripple a team's ability to remain competitive over multiple seasons.

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3. WTF Teams: Analyzing Puzzling NBA Rosters

Discussion Highlights: The duo turns their attention to several NBA teams exhibiting unconventional or seemingly ineffective roster moves during the offseason, dubbing them "WTF Teams." These include the Chicago Bulls, Golden State Warriors, Miami Heat, Toronto Raptors, and others.

Key Points:

• Chicago Bulls:

  • Roster Concerns: The Bulls are struggling with key player contracts and roster stability, making long-term success uncertain.
  • Player Dynamics: Issues with players like Josh Giddey and the unclear role of emerging talents contribute to the team's dire outlook.

  Rob Mahoney [50:39]: "They missed the window to trade Vuchevic by... there's no house there anymore."

• Golden State Warriors:

  • Veteran Core Dynamics: With aging stars like Steph Curry and Draymond Green, and the potential addition of Al Horford, the Warriors face challenges in maintaining competitiveness without significant roster changes.

  Zach Lowe [38:08]: "How do you get through 82 with this group... they're a team of too many 16-game players and not enough 82-game players."

• Miami Heat:

  • Cap Crunch: The Heat are navigating complex financial scenarios with multiple extensions and player options, risking tax implications.
  • Team Composition: Players like Tyler Herro and Bam Adebayo are central to the team's strategy, but long-term contracts may hinder future flexibility.

  Rob Mahoney [17:14]: "The young guys should be able to get paid as much as the old guys right away. That's my take."

• Toronto Raptors:

  • Expensive Contracts: The Raptors have absorbed high salaries for players like Brandon Ingram and Scotty Barnes without clear offensive cohesion.
  • Team Chemistry: The lack of synergy among star players raises doubts about the team's ability to compete effectively.

  Zach Lowe [62:57]: "None of those guys know how to play together. What are you building on?"

Insights:

• "WTF Teams" exemplify the challenges of balancing star power with team depth and financial sustainability.
• Misaligned contracts and unclear player roles can lead to ineffective team performance despite star talent.

Conclusion: Successful team building necessitates not only acquiring elite talent but also ensuring that contracts and player roles are harmoniously integrated to foster long-term competitiveness.

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4. Mets Corner: Debut with Sean Fennessey

Discussion Highlights: Introducing Sean Fennessey, the podcast ventures into the realm of Major League Baseball, specifically focusing on the New York Mets. The segment covers the Mets' recent performances, player dynamics, and prospects.

Key Points:

• Team Performance:

  • Recent Comebacks: The Mets showcased thrilling comeback victories, such as overcoming a 2-1 deficit to win 7-6 in extra innings.

    Rob Mahoney [85:11]: "It's been a wild ride. How should I feel? I'm glad to be back."

• Key Players:

  • Juan Soto: Soto's exceptional hitting, including opposite-field home runs, has been pivotal for the Mets. His integration into team celebrations indicates growing camaraderie.

    Sean Fennessey [90:01]: "He is like entering, like, our Jeter territory."

  • Francisco Lindor: Despite early struggles, Lindor remains a cornerstone for the Mets, contributing defensively and offensively when healthy.

    Sean Fennessey [91:39]: "He is entering, like, our Jeter territory, where he's like, he's the guy I want up at the right time."

  • Pete Alonso: Alonso's consistent power-hitting is both a strength and a financial burden, questioning the sustainability of his contract.

    Sean Fennessey [100:20]: "He is coming back this week, Friday I think."

• Team Dynamics and Challenges:

  • Contract Management: Alonso's substantial contract raises concerns about cap space and future team flexibility.

    Rob Mahoney [101:51]: "They are paying the price for that."

  • Prospects and Future: Discussions around young talents like Mark Vientos and the potential for breakout performances highlight the team's reliance on emerging stars.

    Sean Fennessey [96:14]: "He is like Darren Fox out there."

Insights:

• The Mets blend seasoned veterans with promising young talent, striving for a balance between immediate competitiveness and future growth.
• Financial constraints and contract obligations pose ongoing challenges in maintaining a balanced and effective roster.

Conclusion: "Mets Corner" provides an in-depth look into the Mets' current state, highlighting both the excitement of player performances and the strategic challenges facing the team. Sean Fennessey's insights offer listeners a nuanced perspective on the Mets' journey towards potential postseason success.

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Notable Quotes

• Rob Mahoney [14:39]: "It should be more celebratory than that. This is sports. It's about fandom and fun."
• Zach Lowe [10:32]: "If you're willing to sign an extension, I get the compulsion. But it makes me queasy, too."
• Rob Mahoney [17:14]: "The young guys should be able to get paid as much as the old guys right away. That's my take."
• Zach Lowe [38:08]: "How do you get through 82 with this group... they're a team of too many 16-game players and not enough 82-game players."
• Rob Mahoney [14:39]: "That should be nothing but celebratory."
• Sean Fennessey [90:01]: "He is like entering, like, our Jeter territory."
• Rob Mahoney [23:02]: "They should be able to duck under the tax... the money just becomes overwhelming."

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Final Thoughts

This episode of "The Zach Lowe Show" offers a comprehensive analysis of significant NBA offseason moves, highlighting the intricate balance between player retention and team financial health. The introduction of "Mets Corner" expands the discussion to Major League Baseball, providing fans with insightful commentary on the Mets' evolving dynamics. Through engaging dialogue and expert opinions, Zach Lowe and his guests navigate the complexities of professional sports team management, offering listeners a rich and informative experience.

Transcript

[Zach Lowe]

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[Rob Mahoney]

This episode is brought to you by Pacifico. Here's a story you've probably never heard. Legend has it, decades ago, a couple surfers went down to Mexico in search of epic swells. But they found something unexpected instead. It was still crisp, lively and smooth, but it had nothing to do with waves. It was Pacifico, a delicious Mexican lager. It's like it was brewed to be discovered. Pacifico. Find your own way 21 Discover responsibly Pacifico Clara beer imported by Crown Import, Chicago, Illinois. Coming up on the Zach Lowe show, we have a loaded program today with the great Rob Mahoney. We're going to talk Chet Holmgren, extension, Devin Booker, extension. The difference between them, why that difference is relevant. Got some hot takes on both of those things. Or not hot, but just good takes. Very interesting team building decisions for both the Thunder and the Suns with lots of cap implications. And then Zach's WTF is this? Team, teams. What happened to these teams? Where are we? What? What's going on? What are they doing? You always get to this time of year in July and you're like, all right, let's take stock. The dust is settled. What's going on with these strange teams? We're going to hit the Bulls, the Warriors, the Heat, the Raptors, the Hornets, Pelicans will just. It's been enough. We're going to give you a little break. Wizards, we're going to give you a break. You're just trying to be bad. We know Kings too depressing. But those are going to be our WTF teams. And then the debut of Mets Corner. We're going to do a little baseball, little Queens, New York Baseball with the one and only Sean Feny. I'm back in. I'm in. Just enough. I know. Just I'm the worst kind of person. I have just enough knowledge, just enough knowledge to have really bad hot takes about the New York Mets in baseball. So we're going to share some of those on Mets Corner, which will be a recurring thing. Enjoy the Zach Low show coming up. Welcome to the Zach Lowe Show. It's Thursday. NBA offseason is slowing down where creep moving toward a Las Vegas trip Rob Mahoney. How are you, sir?

[Zach Lowe]

I'm doing great. I'm ready for the desert. You know, bring, bring the heat, bring the, the dry atmosphere. You know, bathe me in chapstick. I think I'm ready to go.

[Rob Mahoney]

Speaking of Vegas, so my plan for the podcast is first 45 minutes, I want to dive in to the groups for the in season tournament that have been unveiled this week. Have you studied them? Can you name all the groups by heart? Have you started to project? Do you even remember who name the in season tournament winner from last year?

[Zach Lowe]

It was the Bucks, right?

[Rob Mahoney]

It was the Bucks. And it, I, they just, it heralded a truly great season for the Milwaukee Bucks.

[Zach Lowe]

I thought, I thought it was the moment everything turned around for them. You know, a real before and after A versus B situation. And we never looked at the preseason or early season Bucks the same way.

[Rob Mahoney]

Have you opened the email and, or read any story about the groups for the 2026? I guess it's 2, 20, 2025, 2026. I don't know how even to characterize it. Ist.

[Zach Lowe]

You know what that one went to just mark unread for me. I think I can name the groups. I believe they are A, B and C. Right? Those are the names of the group.

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't, I don't know. How about we name them. We name everything else now in the NBA, every single series has a trophy named after a famous person. How about we take random players that have excelled in the IST in the past and name groups after them? This is like, this is what happens in Las Vegas. So I mentioned a couple of cockamamie ideas that have come from Las Vegas dinners over the years. One was the, and I broke this down extensively last year, an imaginary 3 on 3 tournament involving all 30 NBA teams where the three participants are the controlling owner, the head coach and the lead decision maker in the front office. And who would win that tournament. The other one was we need to name various parts of the Thomas and Mack center because there's two courts. There's like many entrances and exits. There's a, there's an atrium kind of between the courts. It's generous to call it an atrium. It's a concrete. Yeah, whatever. We need to name it after summer league star. So like the Josh Selby annex of the, of the Thomas. This is what happens in Las Vegas is these things. Okay, we're not going to talk about the Ist because who cares? Nobody cares about the Ist. Sorry, NBA. Not yet anyway. Maybe there's hope for it. Two big extensions occurred before we get to my WTF teams of the summer, Chad Holmgren signed a five year extension with the Oklahoma City Thunder and Devin Booker tacked on two years to his deal at approximately 140145 that will take him through the Suns at 2029, 2030. He will make it's impossible to know despite the fact that these things recorded with specificity and precision. He will make ballpark $70 million in 2029 2030. Chet Holmgren in that same season will make ballpark $51 million. So there's an 18 to 20 million dollar difference between them based on the percentages of the cap. Now that's that raises a whole lot of thorny issues. I just want to read some of the reporting on the Chet extension and the Paolo Banchero extension both on the same timetable. The lead to the ESPN story on Palo Banchero is he agreed to a five year 239 million dollar maximum rookie extension that could reach 287 million dollars. 287 and then it goes on to say if he hits the all NBA criteria MVP defensive player there, he's not going to win defensive player there but 239 to 287. Okay, those are numbers. Yep, the Chet Holmgren extension Reported as Oklahoma City star and champion Chet Holmgren has agreed to a fully guaranteed five year maximum rookie contract extension that could reach $250 million. So by definition a max extension for this tier of players is five years.239 approximately based on the cap assumption for next season 2026 for 2026, 2027 rather than could reach 250 versus could reach 287 is quite puzzling to me because the implication in a lot of the reporting on Chet's contract is that if he hits these various Derek Rose rule criteria the contract will jump somehow. But unless it's like specifically negotiated to just jump like to 25.8% of the cap, a jump from 239 to 250 just doesn't sort of make sense and certainly doesn't mesh with the bankero explicit reporting about MVP, all NBA, etc. Which leads me to believe and the contract is not in the NBA system yet. Which leads me to believe this is all cute and fudgy reporting across the board. And I'm going to guess, my educated guess is when this contract comes in it's just a straight 25% of the cap. There is no bump up for Derek Rose rule. This is just my educated Guess it could be wrong but I think what's happening with the could reach 250 million is that we're getting cute with. Well, the cap could actually rise a little bit more for 2026, 2027 than the NBA's recent somewhat pessimistic projection. And in that case because everything is based on the starting salary in that year, the contract could bump up to $250 million. That's my guess that this is just a straight 25%. The J Dub contract isn't in yet. But these are interesting to the Booker and Homegren things are interesting contrasts. I love Devin Booker. I think you probably love Devin Booker. I think he's a winning player at a high level in the W. In the, in the, in the NBA. And I think those playoff runs, the deep playoff runs with Phoenix, there's something to his game that translates to the very highest level of B. This guy had 40 point games in the NBA finals against an elite defense, switchable Milwaukee Bucks defense. He's also made two All NBA teams and finished in the top five at MVP one time. He's 28 years old, will turn 29 when next season starts. This deal will carry him through his prime. He'll be 33 in the last season of the deal. So it's not going to be like he's old yeah when, when this kicks in, but at 35% of the cap, he's going to be making almost $20 million more a year in those out years than Chet Holmgren will make having signed for presumably 25% of the cap. I love Devin Booker. Wherever people have Devin Booker ranked in their ringer 100 or whatever, I'll bet you he's two or three spots higher. For me I think he's made a lot of progress as a defensive player when there have been stakes. There have not been a lot of stakes for Phoenix in the last couple of years. And yet that contract extension came out and we all expected it but it came out last night and I was like oh man, that's going to be 35 to 37% of the cap depending on projections and how it rises and falls over the, over the length of the next six, seven years. And I'm just like, I'm just not sure a guy who's not a no brainer top 10 player in the NBA is is that's going to be. And you. And you pile on top of that. The fact that in those years there's going to be some amount of dead Bradley Beal money on the Books because I think the wave and stretch is going to happen next week and I think he'll sign with the Clippers next week. I mean, that's like $85 million to $90 million of your cap for those two guys. I don't know what else you're supposed to do if you're Phoenix, because this is your franchise guy. You've publicly proclaimed he's your franchise guy. He has taken you and led you to the NBA Finals. I just know that I this deal, and I love Devin Booker, this deal made my stomach turn a little bit. And I think what, what the implication of that is is you just say, you know what, you're under contract for two, three more years. Like, we don't need to do this now. Let's just see how the Knicks 18 to 24 months ago and revisit life.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, I wonder how much of that is. Look, it's just the team protecting itself in a way. Not just investing in a guy who has stuck around and generally wanted to be there. But also, what if next year is just awful and Devin Booker decides by January that he wants to be somewhere else? Then he is a more tradable player. I think in terms of the length of the deal, even though there is that huge salary commitment, if you want to be in the Devin Booker business, you probably want to be in it over the longer term. All of that said, the 35% max, to your point, about like the threshold for like a top 10 player, it is just a different level of responsibility. It is a different level of production that's required. And Devin Booker has been an incredibly consistent producer overall. Like he's a good all around player in all the ways you described. He's also not quite as adaptable and malleable as his skill set would suggest that he could be. Like, he has not proven to be a plug and play alongside every possible star and it just kind of works sort of player. Like it takes some, it takes some maneuvering, it takes some massaging, it takes the right kind of talent around him, as do many of the players in the league. And that's kind of what separates to me, the true top class of superstar players from the next group of guys. And Devin Booker is in that next group of guys. Like he on a great season would be kind of firmly in the top 10 and on an iffy season might be somewhere closer to 15, you know, maybe even a little lower than that depending on, as you said, the stakes and how hard he's playing. He's a really Good player. And so it's. I find it impossible in the Sun's position to give up on a player as good as him or to even roll the dice with the future of a player as good as him. And so if he's willing to sign an extension, I get the compulsion. But it makes me queasy, too. I just. I just don't think he is or will reach the threshold that will make sense at a 35% cap rate.

[Rob Mahoney]

I. I just straight up wouldn't have done it. And I understand that that's gonna make for some uncomfortable times.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Within the Phoenix Suns.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, how does that play out? Like, you don't give him the extension. As you said, you play out the last two years of his deal, and.

[Rob Mahoney]

Then what I think, what I think, again, like I mentioned this the other day, Rafael Stone has found a way to exercise every bit of leverage he has now with younger and less proven players, for the most part, and not, apparently not alienate them or, from what I've heard directly, their agents. And so I think I would have. Now, look, once Matt Ishbia says all the things he said publicly, the toothpaste is out of the tube. You have to sign the extension at that point because you have to put your money where your mouth is. I would never have put my mouth there, so to speak. I'm very careful about where I put my mouth in general.

[Zach Lowe]

It's a good policy.

[Rob Mahoney]

And so I would go to Devin Booker and have just said, hey, look, you're on the books for $53 million this coming season, 57 million. The next one, 61 million. The one after that, locked in, guaranteed. We got a lot of time. Let's see how the league evolves. Let's see how the Western Conference evolves. Let's maybe have a discussion like other players of your ilk have had of, hey, can. Can we work something out where it's not everything to make us a little bit more nimble in terms of building a winning team around you? Now, understand, that's an uncomfortable conversation that gets into, like labor rights issues and why should a player have to sacrifice for. Why should a star have to sacrifice for the good of his team and etc. Etc. But these are also just the rules. The more expensive you get, the harder it is to build a team around you. I'm sorry, but that's just the reality. And it's even worse now in the second apron era. But I have a lot of. I have. I have some takes on this. Would you like to hear Some takes that I think the Chet Booker contrast in terms of just raw money owed brings up for me, definitely hit me. Number one, I am more passionate than ever about my proposal from now, seven years ago that other teams have. Teams have proposed something similar where if you draft a player and you sign him to a 35% max at any point in his career, there should be some mechanism of relief, whether it's for tax relief or apron relief or some special little cap exception that you get that decreases the financial crunch that is created by that. Because it should be nothing but celebratory.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

That you draft a player that good and keep him for that long and he's so endeared to the fan base that. And in a lot of these cases, you're almost effectively punished for it, because unless you're Nikola Jokic, who you should pay 50% of the cap for if you can, it's just. It becomes, for lack of a better word, a bad contract. And I just don't think that should be. I don't think any team should get to this point with Devin Booker or in the past. Russell Westbrook, John Wall, DeMarcus cousins, maybe not the best example, Jimmy Butler from back in the day. Blake Griffin, be like, ye. He's just like, boy, I don't know if we want this guy on our team at this money. It should be more celebratory than that. This is sports. It's about fandom and fun.

[Zach Lowe]

Yes. I mean, this kind of ties into the Giannis conversation too. Like you're seeing in the life cycle of the Bucks, that it reaches a point where even if you, even if you can convince that star, one of the best talents in the league, to want to stay with your team after all those years, they need a little bit of convincing. Like the roster is going to turn over naturally by, I don't know, year 10 in the league. And so it feels natural to me as you're saying that you want to celebrate and you want to incentivize those kinds of arrangements, those kinds of partnerships, like everything in the league right now is geared so much on like a two to three year timeline before you have to make pretty drastic changes in the financials of your team to make it feel sustainable. If there's any mechanism for long term relief, I think the league needs to look at it really seriously. And the place to do it is here. The place to do it is in with the best players, keeping the best teams competitive, finding ways to put, like. Put players like Devin Booker in the spotlight and Keep them in the spotlight.

[Rob Mahoney]

Take 2. The seniority wage scale, which is a classic union thing and I have no objection to it. Like, I want the best players to get paid the most amount of money. I just think Chet Holmgren in his age 23 to 27 seasons should be able to make as much as Devin Booker in his age 28 to 20 to 33 seasons. So I just think, I mean, and again, this opens up a can of worms for teams who will have to negotiate really hard with players who will think, well, I'm entitled to the 35% max if that's what the rules are. But I think you should be able to pay a young star as much as you get to pay an old star because it's more likely you're going to get the best years of their production and less likely that you're going to get the downslope of their production. Now, again, that opens the door to, like, every guy who's a top 25 player coming off his rookie skill contract will be like 35% of the cap. Guess what? You got to negotiate. That's life. That's my take, number two. I think the young guys should be able to get paid as much as the old guys right away.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, let's talk voting demographics, because in order, like, the owners are never going to push for that. That has to be a player pushed agenda. I would think in order for something like that to go through, in order for it to go through, you would have to have. The league would have to shift younger enough that there would be enough young members of the NBPA to vote in that direction. And at the same time, because it's.

[Rob Mahoney]

All coming out of that 51% pie completely.

[Zach Lowe]

And enough younger players who are also not trying to, like, ruffle the feathers of LeBron and Steph and the older guard of the league. You know, I think there is a sense of deference even within the union as far as that kind of stuff goes.

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't know that I've thought this one out all the way through, but it just does strike me as problematic that the worst contracts in the league are often tied to truly great players. And they're the worst contracts because they're signed when they're older in their careers. And the best contracts are often tied to truly great young players because they are artificially capped at this 25% threshold that can go up to 30%. This is my take three. Speaking of the Derek Rosenwald bump that I don't think Chet Holmgren got, if I'M Jalen Williams, and Jalen Williams agent. I am apoplectic, apoplectic at everybody involved that me making all NBA in my third season does me absolutely no good in negotiating my next extension because it's all dependent on your fourth year. If you hit those criteria that year, you sign the extension after your third year. Your fourth year is the all NBA MVP defense player. There. We can all agree J Dub is not going to win defensive player of the year, as great as he is. And he's not going to win mvp. As great as he is, the MVP is on his team. So he's got to make all NBA in year four. We all know a million things could go wrong. Everyone at his. Everyone. More people could stay healthy. He could get hurt, whatever it is. And if I'm. If I'm his agent, which is Bill Duffy and I'm any agent, I'm like, what BS that this dude already hit the criteria in his third year while we're negotiating this extension and I just can't walk in and ask for 30%. I have to hit it again the next year? I think that's complete B.S. i think if you make it in your third year, it should count.

[Zach Lowe]

I think if you make it at any point, it should count. Like if you've. If you've made it during your first four years in the league. What are, what are we talking about.

[Rob Mahoney]

Anyway? I have no. I. I expect the JDub extension to be done in the next, I don't know how many days, weeks, whatever, it'll get done. And I'm sure this is exactly what they're negotiating about is, is this bump. And I think he should just get it. I think it should already be done. Okay. And by the way, Nicole Jokic also is not signing an extension this summer. I think that's. It's never a nothing burger with the best player in the league, but I think everybody was prepared for that.

[Zach Lowe]

It's financially prudent.

[Rob Mahoney]

Any other takes on any of this?

[Zach Lowe]

I just think maybe we just need, you know, regarding the 25% versus 35% maxes in general, the Paolo Chet Devon Booker conversation. I think we just need different language than calling all of these max contracts like it's. They're clearly not equal things that you need to consider in an equal way. And to that point, I'm just very rarely fussed about any. Any version of the 25% max rose rule included or not, Rose row bump included or not. For a player of Chet's caliber or Paulo's caliber, like These are not the guys you worry about this. You know, if you're 23 and a champion and already an all defensive caliber rim protector and maybe have a future where you're the defensive player of, you know, of the league. Like I, I just don't really have any problem with a contract like that.

[Rob Mahoney]

No, I think you do the chat deal without thinking about it. And now we get, you know, real quickly we get to watch Oklahoma City now really start to navigate the financial realities of its team this coming season. They should be able to duck under the tax, which is important for them because they're going to skyrocket in 26:27 when the J Dub and Chet extensions hit, they're going to absolutely blow past the second apron on paper. Now they also have like as many as four picks in next year's draft. I think it'll more likely be three because they have Utah's pick which is protected in. Utah is just not going to win a lot of games obviously. And then in 27, 28, Shea's mega deal kicks in case and Wallace's next deal kicks in. And I think he will emerge as a must keep core player on their team. And so the money just becomes overwhelming. I don't think they're going to be willing to pay a lot of tax. They already know what's coming. I think they are also willing to eat the frozen draft pick stuff because they just have so many draft picks that they're like, if that's a penalty, cool, like we don't really care. The rubber will meet the road in 2930, which is a long time for now when the repeater tax would kick in. And I just think it's going to be fascinating to watch, just to name a few things. Hartenstein has a player option, a team option rather for 26, 27 at 28 and a half million, that seems tailor made for either, sorry, you're gonna have to play on another team or we're declining that. Can you sign a team friendly extension?

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Lou Dort has a team option. 18.2 million, 26, 27. That's going to be very interesting to see how that's handled. And then I just think you're going to see these shufflings of like Isaiah Joe's and Aaron Wiggins and like these guys that are making 10 to 15 million dumped into people's space here and there, whatever it ends up being. But the dance is going to be fascinating because the three guys are going to make an enormous amount of money, 85 to 90% of the cap, whatever the math is. And I think Wallace, I mean, I'm just betting on case and Wallace making continued leaps to his game to a point that he's just like, we gotta have this guy on our team and he's gonna make a lot of money when he hits restricted free agents.

[Zach Lowe]

See, he's either going to be exactly that player or he's going to be enough of that player where they would be able to trade him for somebody who is more cap appropriate for what they need at that point in time. So it's going to be one of those two options. But I think the value of all those picks we talked about a lot with the Thunder is not just getting the next case in Wallace in the door or, or kind of calling your shot in the draft in the range that you're in to be able to maneuver a couple spots. It's the difference between straight salary, dumping someone like Aaron Wiggins when the time comes versus trading him and a pick for something that would actually help your team at right. It's like there's, there's so many good players here who could help other teams. But the opposition senses your desperation when you're in the Thunder spot. They're not just going to take guys back for free, even if they might help them. Like they're going to try to squeeze everything they can get. And that's where a little greasing of the wheels can go a long way.

[Rob Mahoney]

This episode is brought to you by HubSpot. In the playoffs, extra possessions are everything. Same goes for growing a business. And HubSpot's customer platform gives you more chances to win. Breeze, their built in AI automatically takes care of marketing, sales and service tasks so you can game plan for growth. It's easy, efficient and most importantly, it's effective. Customers are cutting sales cycles in half and getting hours back each week. That's like turning those contested jumpers into clean looks at the rim. Visit HubSpot.comai to learn more. Okay, next segment, I said to you, I want to talk to, want to talk about my, you know, every year we get to this point In July, it's July 10th and the dust settles and you start, you know, scanning rosters and looking at what everything looks like. Now you think there's always teams like, wait, what happened? Who's on that team? What, what's, what's going on with these teams? Why did they do nothing? Or why did they do that thing? That is puzzling. Where are they going? What decisions are still yet to be made? And I have five teams on the list for Zach's. WTF is this team Teams Now I'm cheating a little bit because the warriors are on here. Because I just want to talk about the Warriors. Sure. And I just want to apologize right off the bat to the New Orleans Pelicans, who are the WTF is this team Team. I just feel like we all need a little bit of a cooling off period. They need a cooling off period. Derek Queen needs a cooling off period. Joe Dumars and his 14 phones need to just recharge. He needs his own charging station. We need to just, just leave them be for another day. And then you have the tanker teams. We know it. And the Kings. I just. They didn't make my list either. Just because I just. It's too sad. I can't. I can't even believe what has befallen the Beam Team. And I don't want to talk about it.

[Zach Lowe]

You.

[Rob Mahoney]

You can't believe it if you and I inherited the two seasons ago.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Actually go back even further. If we had Halliburton, if we had the Halliburton version of the team.

[Zach Lowe]

Sure.

[Rob Mahoney]

Or even the Beam team. When we've traded Halliburton for Sabo US and we set out to in 18 months ruin the team, I don't think we could actually do any better than they've done. That's what I'm saying. I can't believe it. Of course I can believe that tragedy in basketball terms has befallen the inept Sacramento Kings.

[Zach Lowe]

Sure.

[Rob Mahoney]

I just, I can't believe how fast it came and how bleak it is to look at their roster right now. It's like, I gotta watch this team next year. So we're not even talking about them. Okay. Team number one, the Miami Heat just traded for Norm Powell. They have one of the more interesting team building decisions. Speaking of, Devin Booker left in the summer of business, which is Tyler Hero is eligible for an extension. And that's a player that. That's an interesting negotiation if it's going to take place at all. He has two years left on his deal. Again, there's no need to do it now. I'm sure his representatives would love to jumpstart a. Hey, this guy just made the All Star team. Right? He did make the All Star team.

[Zach Lowe]

He did make. He did make it.

[Rob Mahoney]

Strike while the iron is hot. And look, it's. It's become kind of fanciful to mock the Heat as the new play in MVPs. And where could a team really go with Tyler Hero and bam Adebayo making 80 90. We'll see how much million dollars combined they are out one draft pick to Charlotte but only one and it's and you know Haquez you I heard you talk about Hawkes on group chat step back last season Jovic seems to take two steps forward one step back every season. Jovic rather I'm I'm bullish on him Khaleel wear like it Yakachunas like it like to fit even between wear and Bam even though I'm not sure that's the long term look I would lean into there is stuff to like here I I might just be so if you look at FanDuel right now odds to win the conference they are plus 5,000 now they're obviously not going to win the conference. I just think it's notable that they are behind the Raptors and then way behind the Pacers, way behind the Bucks and way behind the Celtics who are all better than + 2000 or lower than + 2000 to win the conference. I may be scarred by the fact that five or six years ago when they were in like the Josh Richardson, Dion Waiters, Hassan Whiteside hell, I said on national television I'm not sure any team has a bleaker long term outlook than the Miami Heat and two years later they were in the NBA Finals or something. Something like that. So I may be just defaulting to this team gets rabbits out of hats of various both of the Jimmy Butler ilk and the Duncan Robinson undrafted guy ilk. I think the Heat even just projecting next year are a little better than that and a little closer to those other teams who all have over unders in like the low to mid-40s range. And I I mean I get the concerns about their long term future. I don't know what the next pivot is. But are you is this just this hope? Am I wrong? Is this just hopeless?

[Zach Lowe]

So here's the thing. Short term I think it is kind of hopeless. But to your point, I don't rule out the Heat in terms of their near term future. Like the rabbits have come out of the hats. Like we have all seen them, we have all beheld them. This is a team that does produce those kinds of miracles. So I'm not ruling out that they get the next star who comes available through some miracle trade or unearths as you said, the next Duncan Robinson type role player. That stuff all feels entirely possible to me. This collection of players I don't feel particularly heartened by and some of that is like you get breakout seasons sometimes that feel like they open everything up for a team and sometimes you get a breakout season and it feels like, oh, even the best case scenario, Tyler Hero leads us to this place. Like this is the best basketball he's ever played. And they ran straight into the shot creation wall like they just could not produce enough consistent offense with him. And Bam, like driving the ship in that way, especially in the playoffs.

[Rob Mahoney]

And I got a cop to it. I am Bam fanboy number one. Yeah, I'm at. Bam is a winning player. Bam is a stud.

[Zach Lowe]

He is.

[Rob Mahoney]

Bam did not have a good enough season last year and I think even he would say that did not have.

[Zach Lowe]

A good enough season. I think he's clearly all those things on defense. Like always going to be kind of in the running for an all for all defense consideration. Like he's switchable, he's flexible, he's all those things, has not leveled up or really diversified what he can be as an offensive player. He's had seasons where the mid range game is there. He's had seasons where the handoff game is there. None of it has really coalesced in a way that feels meaningful and sustainable. And so when you look at the kind of the bones of this team, yeah, they could make the next move for the next star. Will they have enough of the kind of support structure to make that make sense? That's something that I worry about with this group and that probably depends on one what you think of Khalil Ware and if he would be involved in that kind of deal to begin with. I kind of think that he would be, but if he was still around, is he the kind of guy who's ready to go next season with. With a star teammate? And what do you think of guys like Andrew Wiggins at this point in his career? Like, what do you think of Davion Mitchell, who I'm. I'm actually kind of high on Davion Mitchell, but it really is like a judgment call come and go on so many different component parts of this team.

[Rob Mahoney]

So on where obviously he was famously not touchable in the Kevin Durant trade talks and they actually were even more protective of their asset based than that. I've talked about what they were willing to put on and what they weren't willing to put on the table. And I think that was a wise and probably difficult look in the mirror moment for the Heat who always want the next big thing and decided we're actually just not ready, we're not good enough to justify a swing like that on Wiggins. I'll tell you what I think of Andrew Wiggins on the Miami Heat, and I like Andrew Wiggins. He had a great finals for the Warriors. He's a good player. He's a good NBA player. He's a fifth starter on the wing. Reliable kind of guy. Good player. I just am penciling in decline or he has a player option for 26, 27, and then I'm penciling in. Just not on the Heat after that. Like, just. I'm not. Not part of the plans. Terrozier was a total zero for them last year, and if he's a total zero again, I think their championship odds are what. Or their odds on FanDuel. Their placement in the hierarchy is probably, like, not crazy. We talked. You've talked about Norm Powell. I've talked about Norm Powell. They got him for nothing. I think that's a fun dimension that they've added to their team. I'm bullish on Jovic, and I think the Powell thing also, they needed to just get smaller and faster with more shooting. They had too many power forwards kind of on the team, and they flipped one and some other stuff in Kyle Anderson for Powell. We'll see how Yakachunas is. Like, maybe that becomes a home run pick for them. They were. They were thrilled. I think they had him toward the end of the top 10 on their board, and so they were thrilled that he fell there. They like Pella Larson and Kashad Johnson. We'll see.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

You know, I mean, I gotta say.

[Zach Lowe]

I like Pella Larson.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's pretty good.

[Zach Lowe]

That guy can play. And as we're talking about, like, the Duncan Robinson types and like, people who could really pop. Like, I would not rule out Simone Fontechio having a Duncan Robinson kind of season for them. You know, just like, all of a.

[Rob Mahoney]

Sudden, he spacer are the only national anythings that are just all in on Simone Fontechio being a useful role player. We were stunned. Stunned that the Pistons wouldn't even play them.

[Zach Lowe]

Unforgivables.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. I don't know what this team is. I mean, Highsmith is a good player, too. He's. He's a free agent after this coming year. You know, they know they're just in the same mode as they were a year ago, which is, hey, we got Norm Powell for free. He. He is an ejection of, like, dynamism to our offense and pace that we need and just almost recklessness. I like the idea that there's a reckless Miami Heat player.

[Zach Lowe]

Yes.

[Rob Mahoney]

And look in the east, like, understand where we are in the hierarchy, but, like, if things go right, maybe we could be the 6th seed or the 5th seed instead of the 9th seed or the 10th seed. Because none of those teams, the Milwaukee, Indiana, Boston's, like, all those teams are one injury away from severe peril and not even a major injury, and not all of them has. Have depth issues. If you looked at, like, Philadelphia's bench, by the way. Philadelphia's bench, but the Grimes will be added to it.

[Zach Lowe]

But it's.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's. It's not great. And Philadelphia, God only knows. I mean, they. Did they. Speaking of WTF teams, they are, like, just exist in their own universe of, like, I don't know. Okay. Like, I guess I'll just. Let's just catch up on Christmas and see what's going on with the Sixers. I don't know. I wish I had more interesting things to say about the Heat right now. They're trapped in the middle, and their big project as a team is how do we get untrapped in the middle.

[Zach Lowe]

Yes.

[Rob Mahoney]

Without tanking? Because we don't want to tank. And tanking is less profitable than it used to be. And we're the Heat, and we don't tank unless it's by accident almost.

[Zach Lowe]

I think what you said about them needing that sort of reckless element feels telling to me. Like, they have a lot of guys who know their lane and know how to play their roles or have, like, very defined skill sets. And I think part of what made the Khalil Ware experience so exciting last season is that's a guy who's undefined, who's like, okay, he can do a little of this, he can do a little of that. We're still trying to feel out what his best role in the lineup is, what position he plays, who he should be playing with. Like, there's a variability to his game that basically no one else on the Heat has right now. And that's like, Norm Powell just had another. He liked Tyler Hero, had a big jump last season. I don't expect another huge jump from those guys. They kind of are who they are or they're going to level out a little bit. One of the two Wiggins, we well know his habits at this point. Like, he is. He is going to be a fine enough defensive player, a fine enough shooter in spots, a fine enough, like, spot creator here and there. Bam, as we talked about, hasn't really taken huge jumps. And so it's like, who else are you getting a step forward from? If not someone like Khalil Ware. And you would love for a team in that position to have three guys who could be thrown into that category. And I think part of the reason the Heat find themselves here is it really is just kind of like a lot of very known elements and then this one wild card off to the side.

[Rob Mahoney]

On where the where. For what it's worth, and maybe it's worth nothing. The where Bam. Lineups were like plus four and a half per 100 possessions last season. I like where a lot. I like everything I saw about it. I guess what I'm saying is this. I think they're over under the last time I checked and it's too early for these was like high 30s, mid to high 30s. I think they're going to be better than that next year. Like it would if they won 44 games next year. That would not be a surprise to me at all.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

And. And that could get them in a conversation for a top six seed in the leastern conference and so. And then beyond that, we'll see. Okay. Next team. The Golden State warriors have done essentially nothing except watch Kavan Looney, a heart and soul player for them, move to the New Orleans Pelicans. I. I think, you know, all the reporting is that Al Horford is going to be there as and there something is delaying it. I don't know what that is. I. I expect him to be there. Maybe you know, Mark Stein reported the Anthony Melton. They're in that derby to the degree that there's a derby to be in.

[Zach Lowe]

I think there should be. That sounds pretty thrilling if he can stay healthy.

[Rob Mahoney]

He's a very good player. He's had back injuries. Then he had the knee injury last year. And so here's my thing with the Warriors. It just. This is very big picture zooming out present day. Why Explain to me why I feel in the prep we'll get to the future present day. This team had a bananas record with Jimmy Butler and Steph Curry. I don't remember what it was. It was like crazy like 25 and 5 or something like that. They win against a very tough and good Houston team in the first round despite Jimmy Butler missing one game and most of another game with with a rear end injury. And then Steph gets hurt in game one of the Minnesota series and they're dead on arrival. So given that background and the clear, although somewhat brief track record of success that they have, why am I just feeling like is that the best it's ever going to be for this version of the Warriors. Like, why do I not feel awesome about the warriors with Jimmy Butler and Draymond and Steph and like, they'll add Horford. I bet they start Horford, too, because I think they want to start bigger and not burden both Draymond and their wings. With the every, like, we're playing small ball all the time thing, why do I not feel great just. Just isolating next year?

[Zach Lowe]

Right. I think there's two things. One, this was a team that needed to make some moves to begin with. You just get like, bodies in the door. And so for there to be no official moves on the books yet, even if we're all penciling at Horford feels a little tenuous in a way that I don't love. Particularly in a Western Conference where the threshold for contending has gone up. Like, OKC is going to be better, Houston is leveling up. Denver is patching up holes in its rotation. Minnesota's right there back to back Western Conference finals.

[Rob Mahoney]

So the most basic reason for my pessimism is too strong a word is exactly what you just said about the incumbent. Whatever you want to classify the four best teams in the west, those four teams, three of them being better in Minnesota being largely intact. But even just separating that, yeah, I still feel somewhat worried. So explain why that might be to me, because my brain is having trouble.

[Zach Lowe]

The other part of that to me, what. What I'm getting stuck on is I fully believe, because we have just seen it, that the warriors with Jimmy are capable of that kind of end season sprint. They know they have this many games until the end of the year. After getting Jimmy, they have to push hard for the finish line to try to secure playoff seating as best they can and then play the playoffs. We know they can do that. Who are the players on this roster who are going to make Steph and Jimmy's job easier for 82 games? And kind of offshoot question, who does Steve Kerr trust to do that? Because this is kind of like the constant push and pull with Brandon Pajemski, a guy who by role probably could do more than any other player on the warriors roster based on what he's asked to do. The problem is when he does do more, he tends to drive Steve Kerr insane. And so like, how they navigate stuff like that. I don't know how you get through 82 with this group. And that's why I was really hoping, you know, Danthony Melton. I really love Danthony Melton. But you laid out his injury concerns are very real. The warriors have experienced it themselves. He's not the guy you come, you bring in expecting him to play big minutes over the course of a season. Like who are the guys who are helping Steph and Jimmy save their legs? Who are the guys helping them to get to the finish line? Because we know if they can get there, they're going to be competitive with some of the best teams in the league. They have all the savvy, they have the skill, they have the balance. But this is maybe a team of too many 16 game players and not enough 82 game players.

[Rob Mahoney]

And given that, I mean the team, the core is like ancient. If Al Horford, Jimmy Butler, Draymond Green and Steph Curry are four of your starting five and four of the six most important players on the team, you have now become an ancient basketball team. And ancient basketball teams don't tend to excel over 82 games, which means you're going to be entering the playoffs, I mean as either a play in team or a road team in the first round of the playoffs or both. Yeah, and it's just hard to imagine this roster, barring a seismic move, winning two to three playoff series from that disadvantageous position given that you're still ancient when you get to the playoffs and and still more likely to wear down and still more likely to suffer an ill timed injury. I love Pajemski. I assume he will be the fifth starter along with Curry, Draymond Butler and if they get Al Horford, the the foursome of Curry, Pajemski, Butler, Green was lights out regular season, lights out playoffs and that that off the bench I can still have Buddy Heald, Moses Moody, who I am higher on than the warriors coaching staff appears to be. I think he's good. And then like the lack of anything I guess. Moses Moody is now a power forward but the lack of any other power forward on the team is troubling to me. They have Jackson Davis in post as backup centers, Guy Santos is still around, maybe they'll sign somebody that I'm not thinking of. Like even a guy like Yabu Selly would have been awesome on this team.

[Zach Lowe]

Huge.

[Rob Mahoney]

And of course if we're talking about power forwards off the bench that brings us to Kaminga. And the other depressing thought about the warriors is currently constructed. Depressing but also like the most likely outcome by far to the end of a dynastic era is that the two timelines thing has not happened. And the post step future, despite all the talk about it, all the careful planning for it, several savvy Picks like Pajemski looks like a good pick for where he was drafted. Even like a guy like Jackson. Davis looks like a good pick for where he's drafted.

[Zach Lowe]

Definitely.

[Rob Mahoney]

Despite all of that, the post step future looks incredibly bleak, which makes the Kaminga transaction that is coming. I'm expecting a sign and trade. I don't know where, I don't know when and maybe there is no sign and trade and maybe they resign him and that's the transaction.

[Zach Lowe]

Do you think there's any chance he just takes the qualifying?

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't think either side wants that. And so I'm going to say if there's a chance it's minuscule because I think that's bad for both, both parties. But what I was going to say is the Kaminga transaction, whatever it is to me is maybe the single most important franchise building transaction that's coming in the next two to three to four months in the NBA. And I just don't see a world in which that transaction sets the warriors up for a happier post step future because I don't think that's going to be. We resigned Kaminga and he's a breakout star for us. I think it's going to be a signing trade in which the return is slightly underwhelming and it's just, you go back and we don't need to relitigate the Wiseman pick and all the, you know, the trades that they didn't make and they end up making the Butler trade. Like I, I wrote this when they lost to the Kings in the play in like the most likely scenario by far when Durant left and Steph got hurt and Clay got hurt and they had this like interregnum of mediocrity to being bad. Was even if the two timelines plan is mildly successful, the young guys will not be ready in time for the old guys and then the young guys will not be good enough as, as a group to be the nucleus of the next championship team because that's hard to do and it's particularly hard to do when you have the number two pick and it ends up being a total bust. And then the most likely scenario was at some point whether it ends up being Jimmy Butler. But it could have been Seoker Anunoby or all these other guys that they were rumored for. You cash in and you get a guy that allows you to compete with pride through the end of the step era. And there's I said I wrote this and I said it. There's honor in being a good western Conference team with very little championship equity. There's honor in winning 48 games in the west, winning a playoff series and bowing out in the next round. That is, that is a fine way for Steph to go out raging against the dying of the light over the next two or three years. But I don't see, I just don't see any championship ceiling here right now and I don't. And the future would frankly scare me.

[Zach Lowe]

It would take so many things breaking right, starting with a great return on a Kaminga sign in trade which I, I don't know why we would believe that that would be coming given the market and frankly given the market for sign in trades this summer. Like what, what is it that the Wolves got back for Nikhil Alexander Walker? It was like a second round pick and a trade exception basically is, is the net from that. I think there's an argument that even though his ceiling isn't high, Nikhil Alexander Walker is in some ways a better winning playoff performer right now than Jonathan Kuminga is.

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't think that's even arguable. And I'm the captain of like Kaminga is good and you and I are kind of hard opposites on Kaminga. I'm just endlessly intrigued.

[Zach Lowe]

I'm intrigued. I just wish, I wish I had more to ride on. I wish I had more to believe in and really given us that over time. But yeah, I think if they, if they don't get anything substantial back for him, why they would expect to be in the Western Conference finals other than Steph Curry is magic incarnate. I, I wouldn't really see the logic in it.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, it's depressing all right. Team three, unless I don't remember it, I already threw my Golden State notes on the floor. So goodbye Golden State, good luck. Steve Kerr and Mike Dunleavy Jr. Look, they're gonna be good. Like they're going to be a very good team. I don't mean to disp, like their record with Butler was a real thing. They right now on FanDuel have I think seventh best odds to win the West. But like that means you're a really good team. Yes, like the west is just that good. Okay, we're going to switch conferences and switch to a far more depressing situation. I listened to Bill and Ryan discuss their bleakest team outlooks in each conference. And when Bill selected the Chicago Bulls as his bleakest Eastern Conference outlook, Ryan was shocked. Not maybe a little surprised. I was nodding along in agreement because I just don't think the national media has adequately internalized how strange this situation is in Chicago. And Bill nailed it. And I just, you know, I just, I mean we, let's just review. Let's do a roster reset. Okay. I would love there a couple of things. Vuch is a free agent after this season, still on the team. Kobe White's a free agent after this coming season and will not sign an extension because it makes no sense for him. The same may be true of IO Dasumnu. And so here is the starting five. White, Josh Giddy. Negotiations ongoing and maybe ongoing for a bit. Somebody at the three. A person out of a group that includes Kevin Herder, Patrick Williams, Isaac Okoro, Julian Phillips, Dale and Terry Asenge. They just drafted who knows what what he's going to be Buzelis. The only reason for hope here is Bouzelis. That's it. And then Vuch and then the bench is basically all those guys I mentioned, plus the Sumu and Jalen Smith. And wow, how fitting that Jalen Smith is on the roster because they have him and they have Patrick Williams, both of whom were picked over Tyrese Halliburton. And honestly it's kind of a crime they haven't signed Killian Hayes to just round out the bad top 10, whatever picks from that draft. And I look at this team, they have paths to cap room, easy paths to cap sure in all of the next future summers. I like Kobe White a lot. Giddey we'll get to. I'm. I'm actually like super intrigued by what Bouzelis looks like with more opportunities on the ball. I spent part of my July 4th watching Bolas drives and pick and rolls and like on ball basketball and I, I'm more intrigued by him and I, I hope they give him more opportunities with the ball next season. I just look at this and I'm like what am I banking on as a Bulls fan other than we finally tank by accident and the lottery gods are finally kind to us and we get something like we got with Derrick Rose. Because I look at this team and I'm like unless Bou Zealous is a star and that's in the universe of possibilities to begin with. But even I just as much as I liked watching Bouzelis and diving into his tape, I just don't think like the ceiling of Matas Buzelis like that you get the 100th percentile outcome. I don't think is like a first team all NBA player.

[Zach Lowe]

Right?

[Rob Mahoney]

Maybe not even a second team all NBA player. They have all Their picks, they have a Portland pick coming in. I just don't know where this is leading and I don't have any faith in this front office and more importantly this ownership group to find a creative solution to lead it anywhere interesting.

[Zach Lowe]

I mean, thank goodness that they're. The player that they're potentially investing in is Josh Giddey. One of the biggest quagmires in the league in terms of talent and playmaking and limitations. Like, there are no answers. There's certainly no easy answers. But I think the only through lines do go through Boozelis being really, really good. And maybe you mentioned, like they have that path to cap space. Like maybe there is an upcoming market in being the one team with cap space where some somebody is banking on being a free agent. But if you were that somebody, why would you sign up to play for the Chicago Bulls? And I say that not just looking at the roster, but looking at the recent history of that management, of believing that this is, this is a group that could shepherd the next like winning Chicago Bulls team, like sustainably winning Chicago Bulls team. I do not believe it. I don't believe in the transaction chain. I don't believe in this group of players. None of it makes any sense to me, frankly. And to the extent that we like Bruiselles, which I do, he does feel like a, do a little bit of everything. Ballasty, kind of second or third best player on a really good team. Like he's going to be in that kind of mode that's really valuable and the guys like us freak out about. But isn't the player you hang an entire roster on. Like, he just, I don't think he'll ever have quite the creative skill set to do that, which is fine and which is still a great outcome, but doesn't necessarily give you a direction as a franchise. And that's, that's why they feel so rudderless. There's just nobody here who's like, okay, you can chart a course by that guy's skill set, that guy's strengths, this guy's potential. Everything feels muddled to the point that it just reads like nonsense.

[Rob Mahoney]

They missed the window to trade Vuchevic by. I mean the window, the house got torn down. There's no house there anymore.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

And they're just, they're paying the price for that. And for three major pivotal moments, setting aside the Lonzo injury and that first 35 games where they look like, okay, something interesting is happening here.

[Zach Lowe]

Sure.

[Rob Mahoney]

Alonzo, Levine, DeRozan, etc, the Williams draft pick, it's just if it's not over, it's very close to over and, and it's not going to work or hasn't worked. And the initial Vuch trade, which cost you the pick that ends up being Franz Wagner, is, it is was a bad trade then and is, is worse. And then to get none of the good assets from either the DeRozan trade or the Levine trade. I mean, they got their pick back in the Levine trade. They got control of their pick back, which they ended up needing because it was the 12th pick, it was top 10 protected, I believe is just like I, it's just that those are four crippling moments of indecision, slash, poor decision, slash whatever you want to say. And now, I mean, I like Bouzelis. He's got, he's got a little more juice on the ball, a little more creativity on the ball than I recalled from watching his rookie season when I dove in and giddy. Look, I was slightly defensive of the Bulls in the Giddy Caruso trade. Not as full throated as Bill was and Ryan was. But I, I said like, there's going to come a stretch where he puts up monster numbers and people are going to be like, oh my God, did the Bulls get this right? And that stretch has happened. It did come even last season. Like he doubled his free throws per 36 minutes.

[Zach Lowe]

Yep.

[Rob Mahoney]

He shot 38% on threes, which. Okay, I'm monitoring it. I'm officially monitoring. He shot, he made. Now this is the, this is the caveat to the 38% on threes. He shot 18 of 51 on. Off the dribble threes, which is kind of a shot like you've got to have if you're going to be the engine of an elite offense in the NBA. 18 is a lot for him. He made three the year before and so that's a jump. But it's like I just don't know where you're going when you hand the offense to Josh Giddey. And the Bulls would say, well, we haven't. We handed the offense to Kobe White and Josh Giddy and Nicole Avuchovic, which is all very interesting and why I asked you a challenge question, which is let's pretend that Josh Giddey in three years is fully actualized as a player and is on a 50 to 55 win team. Like, what does that look like? Because I don't think it looks like Josh Giddey runs 40 pick and rolls a game. No, as, as a. So like, is there a comp, is there any comp you can think of. What does it look like?

[Zach Lowe]

I have three comps. I hate all of them. But this is an impossible exercise as as the Thunder found out ultimately and as the Bulls are finding out now. Like it's very difficult to figure out the historical path for Josh Giddey to be a meaningful player to a championship team given all of those quirks. And I will say too, in addition to improving his game in all the ways you laid out, I actually, actually thought he played better defensively down the back part of last season than we've seen him play generally over the course of his career. So there's, there's little strides being made all over the place. I don't want to ignore them. The first comp that came to mind for me was he do Turkoglu. Like if you're going to put the ball in the hands of somebody who is as big as Josh Giddey but not a standout NBA athlete, not a volume scorer, not an amazing Swiss army knife defender, that's kind of a model. And now Hudu was much bigger and I would say just a like balls out big time shot maker in a way that Josh Giddy is now like he, he doesn't have a problem with the off the dribble three like that. That was kind of the crux of his game in a lot of different ways. But if you're going to talk about like a key playmaker that is kind of a point guard but kind of not like maybe he do is a.

[Rob Mahoney]

Reasonable model and he, and he becomes you know, what option was he on the great Orlando Magic teams that were the peak of his career? A third, fourth option, sometimes second option in crunch time like kind of guy with an elite, elite role man, lob threat, whatever. In Dwight. That's a good name. I honestly like did you have others? Because I couldn't think of any.

[Zach Lowe]

The others I got.

[Rob Mahoney]

I have a couple of candidates that don't fit at all but they're interesting.

[Zach Lowe]

Lamar Odom, much bigger, much more of a forward profile but gets you to to what feels like a rational endpoint for Josh Giddey which is sixth man playing starter ish minutes. He just like he just has that kind of game. I know he's taken steps forward. I know that there are believers in his late season performance from last year. I just, I don't know that he's ever going to be able to actually drive that kind of winning high level offense. And so then if he's your secondary creator off the bench or your tertiary Creator off the bench things start making sense.

[Rob Mahoney]

So here's the bottom line. If you're a non shooter is too strong of a word because all these guys are great shooters. If you're a shooter, if you're a tepid shooter and your number one skill is having the ball and you're tepid to the point that people will invite you to shoot, they'll go under screens, they'll do all those things, you've got to be really, really great at a lot of other things. To be the number one guy on a championship level team. You've got to be a great finisher at the rim, which he is not and never has been. You have to be a very good defensive player. He's been the opposite of that other than rebounding. He just doesn't do those two things well enough to, to carry that kind of burden. So here are some names I thought of. He's nothing like this player. Not nearly as good as this player and not likely to become as good as this player. But I'm just thinking in terms of hybrid on ball, off ball, versatility, clear third option on a great team, whatever. The Josh Giddy version of being Derrick White looks like that. Like again he's Derek White's an all NBA level defender. Joshua, he's not a top 200 defender in the NBA. So but like the point is he's going to have the ball some, but he's going to have to learn how to be effective off the ball. And in Derek White the other name I thought of is this is like apex is this is a leading question because I know some of the answers but like why can't Josh Giddy be more like Franz Wagner?

[Zach Lowe]

I think one of them is something that's like one of the hardest things to teach or to improve which is an innate sense of like seeking physicality, like seeking contact. Like Franz Wagner is a downhill elbow in your teeth kind of driver.

[Rob Mahoney]

Physicality was the number one answer I was going to throw.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, I think like Josh Giddy for as much as he's improved of driving on little in between shots and like trying to get to the room and trying to draw fouls, it's just like going against the grain of his game in so many ways. And maybe he improves gradually over time, but I don't think he's ever going to have the full FR experience.

[Rob Mahoney]

I got nothing more to say about the Bulls. Do you like it? Do you like. I mean like all those wings I named like the random backup wings. Aoro Williams, Terry Phillips, have any of them done anything to you? Like Dale and Terry and Julian Phillips are the ultimate. Like, what do they do? Like, I don't. I wish I knew a little bit more about what they did at this stage there. One's a first round pick, one's an early second round pick. I believe. Like, I wish I knew a little bit more about like what do you, what exactly do you do here for us?

[Zach Lowe]

Julian Phillips will occasionally have a Bill style. This guy just does stuff game like where he's just like all over the place. Like you can feel the energy. But is the energy productive? I haven't really seen it on a consistent basis. I do like IO Desumu and he's a guy who's kind of plugged in as a, as a three guard option for them sometimes. Obviously he's like a good energy defender but doesn't chart as being a, you know, like as a much improved player over the longer term. I think this is kind of going to be who he is, unfortunately. I thought the Isaac Okoro trade and we talked about this on group chat was like inexcusable. Like I just, I don't see the merits of it at all. Even with Lonzo's injury history, the idea of trading somebody who actually means something to your team when he's on the floor and Lonzo and like changes the way you play in a meaningful capacity toward a player who just like can't even consistently stay on the floor. For the Cavs, despite the fact that he learned how to shoot corner threes, despite the fact that he's a fine enough defender like Isaac Okoro is not the answer to what ails the Bulls.

[Rob Mahoney]

At least the Cubs are good. Also good this year, the first place Toronto Blue Jays. Which brings me to the next WTF team, the Toronto Raptors, who are very expensive. Tax expensive. Tax insane expensive. And I just have no earthly idea what this team looks like on the court. None. I think they're actually going to start their five highest paid players. Emmanuel Quickley, RJ Barrett, Brandon Ingram on the Raptors. For those who forgot, he plays for the Toronto Raptors. Yeah, well, he will, he will play Scotty Barnes. I remain as I think you are, on the bullish side of Scotty Barnes.

[Zach Lowe]

Agreed.

[Rob Mahoney]

And a Scotty Barnes leap, mega leap changes everything for this team. But. And then Purdle, who they just extended on a deal that I thought was fine. You know, a lot of people made fun of that deal like Jakob Pearl is a good player and that's a fine contract for A good starting center, that's a starting five that includes arguably depending on how quickly plays. No, no good three point shooters. I think quickly is a good three point shooter. But I just don't, I just fundamentally don't know how that lineup functions on offense. I don't. And by that I mean like I don't know who has the ball when what combinations are used. I just don't, I don't know how it works. And then it makes the bench like so all the guards I acquired via draft and trade are just on the bench now. All our shooting guards, Grady Dick, Jacoby Walker, Baji, Jamal Shed, who's not shooting, guards, a point guard come off the bench along with Murray Boyles who I like and they're very excited about Jameson Battles Hanger. I just, it's, it's a bench of unproven, unremarkable, inexperienced and obviously they're going to stagger minutes extremely. Like two of those five guys, two of those four on ball guys will be on the floor at all times. Right?

[Zach Lowe]

For sure.

[Rob Mahoney]

But I just fundamentally look at those five guys in the starting five and I'm like, I just don't know what this is. I, I don't know how it translates to functional NBA offense. I just don't, I just, I just.

[Zach Lowe]

Don'T believe that they can play together and in particular the Ingram Barnes RJ trio. I don't see how all three of those guys have really good seasons together as teammates. It just doesn't really make sense. It doesn't really make sense with how they play. I think there is a sort of like dreamed version of this like equal opportunity offense. Like all these guys can handle the ball, they're all such versatile players, like they're going to be able to work off of each other. I think that is pretty divorced from the reality of who those guys have been and the tendencies of their games. And it's kind of like abstracting skill set from how, who these guys actually are on the court. Brandon Ingram is a player who can score and can create and can lift the floor of your offense to a certain degree, but I don't think has meaningfully like made many players better over the course of his career. Like doesn't really have that kind of all around game. Even though he's ostensibly a point forward. Scotty Barnes is kind of perpetually in search of the best version of his game and we're going to see if he finds it this year. I too am quite bullish on that.

[Rob Mahoney]

He's very young, he's very young and I think he's going to be a fantastic. I think Scotty Barnes will make an all NBA team in the next three years.

[Zach Lowe]

Feels entirely possible. I'm not. I'm not worried about Scotty Barnes. I am worried about who Scotty Barnes is. As Brandon Ingram's teammate and as RJ Barrett's teammate and as Emmanuel Quickley's teammate who quietly just like did not play basically at all last season. I think the rosiest colored glasses version of the Raptors future is look. So many players miss games in part because it seemed like the team was basically sandbagging down the stretch in the season. Get all those guys on the court together, all of a sudden they're going to be much better than what do they win 30 games last season? They're going to be much better than their win. Total counterpoint. None of those guys know how to play together. No one in this roster has like a meaningful way in terms of like ingrained continuity and chemistry. So what are you building on? What are you building toward? And as you mentioned, all of it is quite expensive. Quite experience and expensive in a way that's very familiar to me as a Bay Area resident where I pay through the teeth for everything, including what turns out to be like kind of a middling experience a lot of the time. So what are you going to do with a roster like that also relevant.

[Rob Mahoney]

To that quintet of players? So there's that arc shaped line painted on the court and behind that line you get an extra point for making a basket.

[Zach Lowe]

Yes.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm not sure that the Raptors have like internalized how important that is in 2025. I mean, Barrett shot 35% last season and it shot well for the Raptors. I don't know that I want RJ Barrett to be like, he's my Clay Thompson now. Like, I just want that guy gunning threes like that's not who he is as a player. And you just named the guy who to me is like the most important player on this team is Scotty Barnes, the swing player on this team. And the guy who absolutely has to hit now is Emmanuel quickley. He's making $32.5 million for the next four seasons.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

I remember people being like, well, he's the best player in the OGN and OB trade. Like real NBA media people were saying that like he was the reason the Raptors made that trade. That's fine. That's one thing RJ Barrett was kind of like, you got to take him, throw in. But Then there was a lot of chatter about like, oh, secretly like you don't know because you're not an NBA die Hard. But Quickly is the gem of the trade. And I remember saying on my podcast, like, apologies to Amanda Quickley. I like him. He was in my most intriguing players column a couple years ago. OG an Adobe is the best player in the trade. Like I'm sorry. And Quickly has done essentially nothing as a Raptor due to health issues. And the idea of him makes sense. We need a guy who's going to take a lot of pull up threes. He can do that. We need a guy who is maybe not a great passer, but a good enough passer to be on par with Scotty Barnes as the orchestrator of our offense. A guy who can screen for Scotty Barnes in inverted pick and rolls and flare out for threes and keep the machine moving on the catch and roll to the rim cut every once in a while. And all of that, the idea has got to become a reality like now because this team has no outs now. They have the outs in terms of like they have all their picks and they owe no picks so they can throw a million picks and swaps into a trade for Giannis or whatever fantasy idea you want to come up with down the line. But all of it's like, it's. I can picture a spooky molder. I call them spooky molder Raptor fans because the world is against them. Adam Silver is the smoking man and, and, and all that. I can see them saying, well Rob, you know you're naming all these players but like we could easily trade these guys. You know, they're all tradable. And I'm like, okay, we just, we live in a world now. We just saw good 20 to 30 million dollar players given away for next to nothing. Norm Powell, John Con, like these guys are, Is RJ Barrett better than either of those guys? He was not better than Norm Powell last year. He's got two years and $57 million left on his deal. Okay, like good luck. I don't know what, I don't know what that's getting you. Brandon Ingram has 38, 40, 41 million dollar player option, 42 million dollar player. I like Brandon. I'm a little more bullish than you are in Brandon Ingram. But like I don't like that's not a plus tradable contract right now. I don't know what, I just don't know where any of this is going.

[Zach Lowe]

I mean, talk to the Pelicans talk to the Knicks like those are teams that tried to trade those guys for years on better contracts than they're on right now and ultimately like had a really hard time doing it while getting anything meaningful and constructive back in return. And so if the plan is overpay these guys now and figure out the rest later, I understand that from like an asset play, asset play management standpoint, I just don't think it's going to have the outcome that the Raptors and their fans might want.

[Rob Mahoney]

They're in danger of the tax this year, they're in danger of the tax next year. They have, they're over the cap in 2728, three years from now, 2829. They have $135 million already committed to just Scotty Barnes, Quickley Purdle, Murray Boyle and all the picks that will come in in the interim. No, no other signings are included. Like no sign, no mid level signings, nothing in the interim, no Ingram, no Barrett. And so I just. They're trying to do, they would tell you we're trying to do this middle build thing. We think we can win 42 games next year, 45 games if things hit right and then we'll have all this flexibility because we have our picks and we can do this thing where we build from the middle. It's admirable. They don't want to tank. The only year they tanked was the Tampa tank when they were relocated and took advantage of it and got Scotty Barnes. It's just, it's going to be a haul and I just fundamentally I'm like, I just don't think that five man starting five is going to be a functional NBA offense. It could be good. It could be a good, decent defense. Just don't know that that's a roadmap to anywhere interesting right now.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, I mean that's one more variable to hang on the board is. I think a lot of the premise of this group hangs on the idea of oh, they're going to be able to replicate some of their defensive success from the back part of last season. I mean we'll see. Like that's a historically fluky part of the.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's my favorite spooky Mulder take of all Raptor stakes is like you didn't pay attention. We were the ninth ranked defense in the last 20 games. You mean when none of your guys were playing, like when literally none of your core players were playing regularly at all, you were a top 10 defense for 15 games. Awesome. I'm going to Pencil them in neck and neck with the Thunder next year for best defense in the NBA. Let's pencil it in. Okay. Last one. They may not qualify for this because I just don't think they're going to be good enough. And they're more. They're closer to just the tanktastic group in the east. I just like to talk about the Charlotte Hornets.

[Zach Lowe]

Sure.

[Rob Mahoney]

Who have like 14 guys under guaranteed contracts before you get to Musa Diabate who by the way might be their starting center next season and I. They've. They've obviously have done quite well on the fringes under this new ownership group. They have four extra first round picks coming to them in the next five years. Some of them are good, some of them are. Eh. They should be pretty nimble cap wise. You just look at this team and it's like what a strange conglomerate of players. So here's their starting five next year. Here's all I know for sure. Lamelo ball.

[Zach Lowe]

Are they all guards?

[Rob Mahoney]

They might be all guards or power forwards. Lamelo ball. Brandon Miller. Miles Bridges. Those are the three. The other two spots. I don't know.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Who's the. Who's the wing between Lamelo and Brandon Miller or next to Brandon Miller? Could be Colin Sexton on the team. Could be Josh Green on the team. Could be Trey mann resigned. An 8 million dollar contract. Don't think that would be the thing. The answer could be con canipple rookie like con canipple just fine. Could be Joshua Kogi. He's got a non guaranteed contract. He's probably. He might have to be a cap casualty. No clue who it's going to be. Pat Connaughton on the team by the Connaughton on. I always do that. Pat Connaughton on the team. Not sure how long that's going to last either. Liam McNeely. I don't know. Whatever. Whatever. Who's going to be the five? This is the most depressing center situation that I can remember and if I'm Lamelo bomb like I understand Mark Williams has some health issues. You clearly telegraphed to the whole league. You can't get. Wait. You can't wait to get rid of him before we got to pay him.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Who am I throwing lobs to next year? Who am I passing to like Diabate? Mason Plumlee. I will say they like this guy Kalkbrenner.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

That they got in the second round. Who is a multi time. I think defensive player of the year. Whatever conference he was in. Okay. Like is he gonna Start now. Like that's your 15th guaranteed contract. I guess so. We're already full. Are we gonna play? How does Salon fit into this? How does McNeely fit into this? How does Grant Williams fit into this? Are we going to play super small ball with all those guys on the court? I just. It's a strange team and really it just comes down to LaMelo Ball and Brandon Miller.

[Zach Lowe]

Yep.

[Rob Mahoney]

And so I ask you, Rob.

[Zach Lowe]

What.

[Rob Mahoney]

Is lamelo Ball.

[Zach Lowe]

In abstract terms?

[Rob Mahoney]

Just I. I sat down and I watched an hour or 2 of LaMelo Ball pick and rolls from last year because I want to. I just want to re. Like, I like to do this with players who I'm going to talk about. It's like, let me just refresh my memory and get it all fresh in my head. What does this look like? What are some strengths and weaknesses? You notice stuff when you watch just a player versus watching a Charlotte Hornets game. You'll notice more quirks and tendencies. And I have been a lamelo ball. I've been on the more positive side of the mall ball because I just don't think he's 68 or 6 7. The size, the shooting ability and the vision and creativity. It's really hard to find that all in one player.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

And yet he never plays. First of all, he's always injured and he took. Here's. Here's just a funny thing about a mobile. He took 24 shots per 36 minutes last year. Since 2014, three players have had a season in which they have taken at least 24, 23 and a half shots per 36 minutes and played at least a thousand minutes. So we're filtering out on basketball reference. All the guys who played like 200 minutes, it's happened in three player seasons total. LaMelo Ball in 2024, 2025, playing carnival basketball, shooting step back threes.

[Zach Lowe]

Yep.

[Rob Mahoney]

Russell Westbrook the year he won the MVP.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay. Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

And James Harden in 2019 when he averaged a thousand points a game. And I don't think he won the MVP that year. I think he won it the year before, but was one of his many top three finishes in the MVP. That's the list. And I'm sorry, LaMelo Ball, not in that class of player. Understand all your teammates were not very good. Brandon Miller was injured. So I just ask you, like, I. I'm less certain now than I was a year ago that I should be bullish about LaMelo Ball. What is he? I don't understand what he is.

[Zach Lowe]

I mean, he is their team. Like Whatever you think of Brandon Miller, he's not the kind of talent who gives your team structure. And when you have Lamelo on your team, you kind of are a Lamelo outfit. Like, you're going to play more or less his style. You're going to flow through that creativity that I agree is really exceptional by NBA standards. Like, he sees and tries and does things that players do not do. And from that I think you can create all kinds of interesting offense. Can you channel it consistently, especially in a half court setting, in a way that leads to winning basketball? I don't know. Like the start of his NBA career would tell you. Largely, maybe not, but I continue to believe in it. I continue to beat my head against that particular wall and think with the right combination of players, the Charlotte Hornets can be better than the 10th seed in the Eastern Conference, which they've not been able to do in the time Lamelo has been in the league. A lot of it comes down to whether he can play or not. A lot of it comes down to the ankles. I think he had ankle and wrist surgery. It was, I guess just get it all done at once situation for Lamelo. With him, though, with those injury concerns, all of a sudden you have to have all these guards, or at least I can understand why you would talk yourself into, oh, we need these kinds of scores, these kinds of ball handlers. We need options for when Lamelo is hurt. If that's how you're categorized as a star, as a liability in that way, that feels like a huge problem. The fact that your style is also somewhat of an open question, I think is a pretty big problem. I still would continue to invest in it because I am an insane person.

[Rob Mahoney]

And I, I'm. I'm with you. Like, I look at his contract. He's got four years left on his contract. It's going to be on Spotrek. Estimated to be 22 of the cap at the end of its deal. It's 38 million. 41, 43, 46. Excuse me. I'll tell you one thing I'm not doing right now is prematurely deciding we just need to get off this guy and restart the franchise and selling for whatever I can get. First of all, I don't know that there's a deal out there that's appealing. Second of all, like, I'm just still too intrigued now. The shot selection last year was egregious. And what's interesting about Lamelo is that he is. There are so many contradictions to his game. He clearly takes greedy shots. Yes, he's also not inherently a selfish player. Like if you watch the reel of his pick and rolls, he will make not just the right pass, he'll make a quick pass. Like if you double him, he will hit the screener rolling to the rim. Or if he sees people rotating from the wing, he'll hit the guy on the wing right away. Like he won't waste any time. And then. And the machine will move from there. He sees every pass. It's interesting. I watched I don't know how many dozens or hundreds. I don't think I saw one successful pocket pass the entire time that I watched. Part of that is because he's a little bit of a daredevil.

[Zach Lowe]

Yes.

[Rob Mahoney]

Part of that is because he preferred to lob to Mark Williams.

[Zach Lowe]

Not a bad decision by the way, given Mark Williams.

[Rob Mahoney]

And. And part of that is that in the paint he's still a very unpolished player who doesn't seem to quite like there are all these weird quirks of timing and angles to his game. And you can see him learning and he got to the paint more two years ago and finding the reads. And occasionally he'll get. He's one of the. He's like Halliburton that he can get up in the air.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

And still make a nice drop off pass is big man. Something about the timing of his game is just a little bit off. And that's setting aside the fact that you talked about winning basketball. There's a looseness and a laziness to the way he processes the game in the half court. That is just not okay for a player who's so clearly smart and creative. At the end of games there's never any calculation of like, what matchup should we be hunting? Who has a mismatch? What should I go after? And I talked about him as a walking contradiction for a player who wants to play fast and will throw the hit ahead pass. He also will just lope the ball up the floor. Nothing will happen until there's 11 on the shot clock. Some screen will happen. And he's not great at setting up his guy to run into picks either. And then he'll just sort of step back and dance with the ball a little bit. And it's like, dude, you gotta get. He does nothing off the ball. Nothing. He's gotta. He's gotta have that to his game. And to Charles Lee's credit, he set way more ball screens last year than he had in prior seasons. But still not enough. But there's something. There's something here yeah. And it's just hasn't clicked yet. It's. It's a strange watch. I'll tell you. If you watch 200 LaMelo pick and rolls, it's like this is a strange, strange player.

[Zach Lowe]

There's something just like so avant garde to all that. To all those contradictions, to the fact that like he really does run almost entirely on vibes and you would love more intention to that. I think the contrast with Tyrese Halliburton is so fascinating because you're right, they both do hit ahead in a kind of similar way. They both can be like really good rebounders. I think Lamello's rebounding is a super underrated part of his game, to be honest, in the way that accelerates the break. But Halliburton is a guy who, he comes out of a game and the games where you see where he doesn't shoot enough, you can tell going into the next one that he's had the conversations with the right people in his life about like, okay, I want to get to these spots next time. I want to challenge this matchup next time. Lamelo doesn't seem to do that. He's. I mean, I don't know that he's a player or person. I would burden with a lot of introspection, to be honest with you. I think he. He knows what he does well and he tries to channel those things as best he can. But he is a read and react player in the moment and I think that can lead to some trul. Truly spectacular outcomes. You can put together a reel of five or 10, even like late gameplays in games that the Hornets are in where he does things that other stars do not do, will drive, draw three people in the lane and make a spectacular kick to the corner for a crucial shot that other stars would force themselves. The combination of his. His genuine want to set up other people and also genuine want to just like try flashy for the sake of. It is some of the most watchable basketball in the league, some of the most chaotic basketball in the league. And I wouldn't want to live and die with like my job riding on his success. But as someone who just has to watch and try to guess at what he's going to do, I enjoy this part of it and I do think, I do think eventually he's going to get somewhere.

[Rob Mahoney]

Their play by play guy, Eric Collins, who I'm sure we both love, has something between like a panic attack and seeing God and speaking in tongues like four times a game. Watching Lamelo and Their offense was way better with Lamelo on the floor last year. Now that's partly an indictment of what's coming behind him, but it was also just good, like by the numbers. It was good offense when he was on the floor. I'll just say this. There's been a lot like, obviously they're rebuilding and they picked high again in the draft this year after picking Brandon Miller a couple years ago, etc. Nick Smith Jr. By the way, still on the team. I don't know. Neither here nor there.

[Zach Lowe]

He was like third on the team in total minutes last year or something like that.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's just a lot of guys on the team, none of whom are good centers.

[Zach Lowe]

I will say Diabate as a league pass, experience, effort, I really appreciate it. I really enjoy watching him.

[Rob Mahoney]

Should not be starting.

[Zach Lowe]

He should not.

[Rob Mahoney]

So they're rebuilding. They have all these extra draft assets and we've spent a lot of time. There's been a lot of like, would they ever get off Lamello to go into like a deeper rebuild? I almost think one of the most fun outcomes of the next 18 months in the NBA is if they actually go the other way and Lamelo steadies a little bit as like a playmaker and they decide, you know what, let's overpay for some disgruntled guy who's 29 years old and just see what happens here. Because they have the ammo to do it and there's a world in which they're ready to do it faster than people expect. And I want to live in that world. I don't want to live in the world where the Hornets have traded lamelo Ball for $30 million of expiring money. One protected first round pick and another protected first round pick. I don't want to live there.

[Zach Lowe]

This is one of those areas where the salon pick, it was, it was kind of flummoxing in a lot of different ways, one of which is they could really use a guy who's just a little further ahead on the curve in that spot. Like, I. I don't know what to make of the John Salon yet. He just looks like he's figuring everything out on the fly in real time, as many young players do. But, like, even more raw, even more of a term project.

[Rob Mahoney]

Very excited. He's always very excited. Whenever he does anything. Well, he's extremely excited, which I find quite charming.

[Zach Lowe]

And like, maybe if you want to chart the longest possible path for the Hornets, maybe that's a useful player to have in five years. If you Want a player who's going to be good in the next two to three. I don't, I don't know what he's going to be. And maybe he's someone who could be enticing to one of these teams you're talking about to where you overpay and he's involved and he can be a part of a rebuild somewhere else. That makes sense. And you get the Hornets version of a Pascal Siaka, right? Like a stabilizing kind of half court player who can fit everything you do and run the way that you run, but also gives you this other dimension. And I think if you can get that guy and Brandon Miller becomes some version of that guy and is a little steadier, pulling up off the dribble pays off on the defensive potential that he's already shown. Like there's the bones of something. It's. It's just like, I don't know if it's enough bones to make up a whole skeleton or if it's going to be some mutant like, like abomination.

[Rob Mahoney]

Now to your point, everything this front office and ownership group has done has trended towards the long, long, long lens of team building up to and including the salon pick. I like Brandon Miller. I think Brandon Miller's gonna be really good NBA player. Lamelo's got to be better defensively. We didn't even talk about that. But everything they've done has trended like hinky style. Longest view in the room. So maybe my dream of a win now trade in two years is stupid. I'm just saying I wouldn't shut that door completely and I don't think they should shut that door completely. Let's see how this team play. They're not gonna be good this year. I don't know what they're, how many games they're gonna win. But it all comes down to Lamelo, who it's time. It's time to be healthy and that's a lot of luck. I realize it's time to, to.

[Sean Fennessey]

Be.

[Rob Mahoney]

A serious player all the time and not just some of the time because the talent is there. Okay, Rob Mahoney, what do we got coming up from you?

[Zach Lowe]

Great question. I mean, we're kind of shifting into off season mode group chat wise. That's going to be a little bit of a, a mystery situation going forward. But you know, we're going to pod here and there. We're going to make it happen. I think I'm going to, I think I'm writing next week on the Sicko signings of the summer. The true degenerate stuff, much of which we have talked about today. You know, really getting deep into yabuzeli trend in Watford territory.

[Rob Mahoney]

So that's trend in Watford, trend in Watford's good.

[Zach Lowe]

Good player.

[Rob Mahoney]

Rob Mahoney. Thank you, sir. Talk to you soon, bud. See you in Vegas.

[Zach Lowe]

Yes. Thanks, Zach.

[Rob Mahoney]

With PayPal, I can pay now or pay in four.

[Zach Lowe]

No interest and no fees.

[Rob Mahoney]

Now feast your ears on this prime cut musical meat.

[Sean Fennessey]

You can pay your own way.

[Rob Mahoney]

Don't just pay.

[Zach Lowe]

PayPal subject to approval eligibility fairs.

[Sean Fennessey]

Learn more at paypal.com payonfor pssst.

[Zach Lowe]

Your payments are showing, but with Apple Cash, your payments are private by design. There are no public feeds, awkward reactions, or unnecessary payment drama. Apple Cash lets you send cash and messages right in the conversations you're already having. Or with tap to cash paste someone next to you without looking up a username or scanning a QR code. Just hold your iPhone near someone else's to send. Switch to Apple Cash and start sending privately. Apple Cash services are provided by Green Dot bank member fdic.

[Rob Mahoney]

All right, it's finally time. Mets corner Sean Fennesee. I'm back. I'm back. I'm in just enough to have a lot of dangerous takes. I'm in just enough to get hurt a little bit. But I'm back in. I'm back in. I lived up to my vow. I'm not watching every game. I'm not watching all nine things of the games that I watch. But I'm watching pieces almost every night. And I think I told you the other night, I put my daughter to bed. We had just watched the mets go up 21 over the Orioles. And I checked the scores. I was putting to bed. It was five two, Orioles. And she was so sad. She's like, oh, they're gonna lose. It's the eighth inning. Came back to my office, flipped it on in the background. Lindor, home run. Alonzo, home run, six to six. I run into my daughter's bedroom because I know she's still going to be awake. And I say, honey, they. They tied it at six. Six. And your guy, Lindor, she loves Lindor. Hit a home run and Alonzo hit a home run. She's like, polar bear. Yeah, Polar bear hit a home run. And, like, it's tied. They might. They might win. And they did win in extra innings, 7 to 6. I learned in that game, as I texted you, that you now start extra innings with a runner on second.

[Zach Lowe]

Cool.

[Rob Mahoney]

Awesome. Didn't know that And I had forgotten what it. What a thrilling Major League Baseball comeback win feels like. Felt Great. Mets are 53 and 39 going into a doubleheader today after a 3 and 13 plummet. It's been a wild ride. How should I feel? I'm glad to be back. I miss this romanticism in my life.

[Sean Fennessey]

Welcome back. And you know, you brought a partner with you with your daughter, which is wonderful. And the Mets faithful grows stronger every day. As you know, I have. I'm a very complicated feeling Mets fan, because this in theory should be the greatest stretch in the history of the team. I mean the ownership, the management, the roster. I not since 1986 should we feel so confident. And yet every game is kind of like that game on Tuesday night where you're not totally confident. Something terrible seems to happen and then somehow they just kind of pull themselves out of it. And this is kind of a continuation of the team that they were last year. So how should you be feeling? I think excited. I think hopeful. For me, that's weird because I am just the most burnt out, angry, ready to explode Mets fan on the planet. But the last few years have been very odd to feel more comfortable, more excited and thinking maybe we have a chance to do something that I did not think they would be able to do when I was 25, 35. And now as I get close to 45, I feel like maybe I will see a championship before I die.

[Rob Mahoney]

So this is the number one benefit of me being laid off by ESPN is it happened right as the Mets were entering a magical postseason run. I was like, all right, I'm going to be back in and I'm going to watch it and I've stuck with it. But I also am still in like the question phase of like, I have a lot of die hard Mets fans in my life and I'll ask like, wait, so who is this guy? Kind of questions. Like, I'm still learning who this guy is. Who like all these pitchers have like no Major League Baseball track records, but they're all good. Like, how is this happening? And I keep hearing, well, that's a David Stearns thing. This is what they do. So can I ask you some questions?

[Sean Fennessey]

Please do.

[Rob Mahoney]

When did this traveling thing and hand signal, like every time they get a hit or an rbi, they make this thing and go like this. And I think it's very cool and my daughter does too. Who started that? When did it start?

[Sean Fennessey]

That's this season. Is that, that's the team's celebration. Last year's team Celebration was more of like a kind of an ass slapping kind of gest. And this year it's more of a, I don't know, like a rumba dance. I assure you it is not an NBA official calling a travel, even though that's what it looks like.

[Rob Mahoney]

Who is the chairperson of this? Who's making these decisions?

[Sean Fennessey]

If I had to guess, Pete Alonso. He's, you know, he's kind of the goofball of the bunch. But this is seemingly a very tight knit team. You know, there's a lot of groupings of friendships. You've got Francisco Lindor and Jesse Winker, who kind of grew up together. You've got Pete Alonso and Brandon Nimmo and Jeff McNeil who've all been in the Met system for a long period of time. You've got new entrant Juan Soto, but clearly he's got a friend in Starling Marte. So you've got these kind of agglomerations of friendship. And so together they all, they come up with these, these bits, these moments, these inside jokes every time they do something cool.

[Rob Mahoney]

So I, again, am coming from a place of total ignorance. I could not have identified Juan Soto on the subway two years ago. It is, as I watch the games, I do feel like. So they do the, this thing, the traveling thing, and then they do the, the little photos that they do, the snapshots after home runs, which is very charming and I'm glad they still do that. I do get the vibe from Soto that he thinks all of that is kind of silly and he's a reluctant participant in it, but a participant nonetheless. Am I wrong about this?

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, it's colored by the fact that there was a narrative in the first 30 games of the season, issued largely by Yankees fans and Yankees broadcasters, that Soto was somehow unhappy to be on the Mets, that he was miserable, that he had accepted the most money as a free agent, but that he wasn't really a part of the culture of that team, that he was a true Yankee and he'll always be a true Yankee. And so I think that that is informing some of this. I think Juan Soto was just a little bit more laid back and his swagger is kind of within himself as opposed to the goofball stuff that kind of highlighted the 2024 Mets with Grimace and OMG and everything that Iglesias was doing with the performances after the game. And there's something, there's just something a little bit light hearted and silly about this crew. And I don't get the impression that's really Soto's vibe. He's a little bit more of a Steve McQueen type, more of a silent assassin. But since they have started winning and since he has really come alive and in the last five weeks, he's basically playing the best version of baseball that you can, I get the impression that he's a little bit more comfortable getting into the silly stuff.

[Rob Mahoney]

So I have a very good friend, Tim, who's a die hard Cubs fan, big baseball fan. And he was like, you're going to love Soto. And I said, well, other than the fact that he's awesome, why? And he said something like every at bat is like theater with him. Like there's, there's certain strut to him and a certain calculus and obviously a lot has been made of like he's. Is he taking too many pitches? He loves to take pitches. And then I told you, I was watching the game the other night and he had an opposite field home run. And I don't know baseball stats at all. So I don't know how extraordinary this is or not, but the sideline guy, Steve Gelbs, I think his name is. He's very.

[Sean Fennessey]

Steve.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

From sny.

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't. You call him a dugout guy. What do you call him in baseball?

[Sean Fennessey]

He'll go into the field. He'll. He'll go onto the field. He always interviews the, the sort of signature player after every win.

[Rob Mahoney]

He had this stat that Soto either swing starts his swing or contacts the ball or something 5 inches with the ball, 5 inches closer to the catcher's mitt or 5 inches further from the mound than the major league average. And how he's able to wait longer because of his opposite field power. And that's, that was like. That seems like a crazy stat to me, but I don't know, but it seems very interesting. I was like, okay, I'm going to learn. I'm learning stuff about baseball. They now measure all of these things.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think his approach to hitting, he, he had all he had been compared to Ted Williams from even his earliest seasons in 2019 and 2020 in Washington. And part of that was because he had this incredible recognition that he was able to identify what pitches were. And so one of the reasons why he's always at the top of the league and on base percentage is because he walks all the time.

[Rob Mahoney]

Right.

[Sean Fennessey]

He knows not to swing at bad pitches. But the other thing is that, you know, he's still only 26 and he's, he's really strong, really strong. And so we've seen like in the last month or so, all those opposite field home runs are because of what you're talking about. He's essentially waiting on breaking balls deep in the box and able to just kind of muscle them out of the stadium as opposed to just standing way far up in the box. Like, watch Ronnie Mauricio on the Mets hit. Now he gets way close into the front of the box and he murders fastballs. If you throw him a fastball in the zone, he can hit it 450ft, not so much with breaking balls. Soto is the rare hitter who can kill the fastball and also has this very artful. It's kind of like being deadly from the mid range, you know, like I'm trying to think of basketball metaphors that will make this coherent for you. But he's just that unusual combination of patience, power, and then even what we saw last night or two nights ago. So 10th inning first pitch, knew exactly what he wanted. And just seeing I single through infield playing in trying to avoid a runner advancing to third base. He's also just intensely intelligent as a hitter too situationally so it's kind of crazy that he's on the Mets. I still haven't really fully accepted that maybe the greatest or second greatest hitter in baseball is just on our team, but he is. So that's nice.

[Rob Mahoney]

So you mentioned one of my. A topic for one of my other questions. What should my. On a scale of one to like Victor Wembanyama, what should my excitement level be for Mauricio? Because I'm getting. I'm getting up to like a six and a half seven with some of the plays he's made at third base. And he hit home run the other day like he's supposed to. Like he's a hotshot prospect, right?

[Sean Fennessey]

He was a hotshot prospect because he's an extraordinary athlete, an unusually gifted athlete for baseball. And then he had a pretty significant injury. I want to say he had an ACL tear about a year and a half ago. And so he's been recovering and he was murdering the ball in the minor leagues in the first month of the season this year. And they kind of called him up surprisingly quickly. And you could tell that he, while he was flashing the power, he really struggled for about three weeks. And now in the last week and a half, two weeks, the guy that I thought he was going to be two years ago when he got his call up to the bigs is starting to show up. But he made a play in the eighth inning two nights ago that Was a real highlight reel play where it was a hot shot to third base. He stepped on third base and turned a fast double play. That was the kind of thing that maybe not since Howard Johnson, we've been dreaming about as Mets fans. I mean, the Mets have kind of a complicated history with third base. David Wright alone, who was a solid infielder, but not the most athletic player. It would be exciting if Mauricio developed. Mauricio just doesn't hit lefties, so I don't know if he'll ever be a true everyday player, but man, he is.

[Zach Lowe]

He.

[Sean Fennessey]

He looks like Darren Fox out there. I mean, he's just huge. Super strong and super fast. So I think you're. What level should it be at? He's not a women yama.

[Rob Mahoney]

No, no, I know that. I'm just. I was putting. What 10 is.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, probably a 6. Like there's a chance that it works out. They have this weird. The Mets have this weird thing where they have three legitimate third base prospects and every time one of them starts to play well, the other two start to sell.

[Rob Mahoney]

So Vientos is one. And who's the other?

[Sean Fennessey]

Mark Vientos, who was extraordinary last year in a playoff. Hero Brett Beatty, who also played some second base. I do too. He's kind of your classical third baseman where he can flash power. He's really rangy with a glove, seems to be a very smart player, but he can't ever get his on base percentage over.300. So all three of those guys are in this kind of. And they're all buddies and they all came up together through the system and they're in this kind of generational war. I think only one of them can really take the spot. But we'll see what happens over the next month or so.

[Rob Mahoney]

Next question, How. How is Francisco Lindor not made an all star team with the Mets? And I'm not saying that skeptically, like, I. I was surprised because he was second in MVP voting last year, was he not? So like. And he's. He was first Mets all star. Has he been injured? Like, how did this happen?

[Sean Fennessey]

He just. Every season gets off to an incredibly slow start.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think historically he's Jamal Murray.

[Sean Fennessey]

He is Jamal Murray. Yeah. I mean, minus the injuries, but he. I mean, he consistently hits 220 through April and May every year. And so you get to all star voting time in June and you look at his counting stats and it looks like he's not a very important player. Setting aside his incredible defensive skill and then invariably it gets Hot, and he gets hot, and every summer he tends to annihilate. Now, this year was different. This year he actually hit in May and June, and because of that, he got voted in.

[Rob Mahoney]

But.

[Sean Fennessey]

But it's obvious. He's one of the 10 best players in baseball and has been for the last seven years. He had a particularly gnarly first 18 months with the Mets where he both didn't play as well as he could have and had a couple of public snafus that I think he'd probably take back if he could. Or he was sort of like adversarial with. With the fandom in part because of something that his teammate at the time, Javier Baez, was doing, and that kind of set him off on the wrong foot a little bit. And then after that first season, he really course corrected. And I've said this a couple times now, but to me, he is like, entering, like, our Jeter territory, where he's like, he's the guy I want up at the right time. He's the person I trust the most on the team. He's the person who, like, my heart is with when they're going good. So, you know, should he have made the All Star team last year, the year before that? Probably just because he's kind of consistently the best or the second best shortstop in the National League. But it's nice that he didn't take so long to get hot this year.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm gonna now have to Google all the stuff you said about adversarial and this Baez person, who. I don't know who that is. I'm gonna Google it. Let me surprise myself.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'm gonna google there's a thumbs down circumstance.

[Rob Mahoney]

Julius Randall, like, with some Julius Randall vibes. Okay, great. My daughter absolutely loves Lindor, and it's so funny to see how. Remember how kids process sports. So he took her to her first game. We had amazing seats. Lindor, I think, was 04. I don't think he did anything in the game except he turned maybe three double plays. Peterson had an incredible outing, and the double plays were, like, not Ray Ardonia's highlight double plays, but they were like slick double plays. And that combined with the puffy hair she was just in and me saying that Lindor is really good. She's just. Her first question after, did they win? Is, how did Lindor play? What did Lindor. She loves Lindor. So I'm all in on Lindor. Okay, next question. They signed Soto for a good. Literally, like a billion dollars. And all my Mets Fans friends were priming me for like, well, Alonzo's gone. Alonzo's. They can't afford to keep Alonzo. He's going to have a market. And Alonzo has been the best hitter on the team this year. So like what was plan B? Like, who was playing first base for the Mets? And like they'd be up a creek without this dude through the first two.

[Sean Fennessey]

Months of the season. They would have been screwed because he was so dominant and he was the centrifugal force there offense. I don't know. You know, one of my pastimes is overanalyzing off season moves for the New York Mets. And I've been doing a lot of that in the last month in part because they had that really gnarly skid. And I was just telling my producer, Jack Sanders, I was in person for four of those 13 losses.

[Rob Mahoney]

You were at a Braves game, right? Like the house of horse.

[Sean Fennessey]

Three Braves games and a Dodgers game and it was a pretty rough stretch.

[Rob Mahoney]

Fuck the Braves, by the way. Still, despite 15 years of lapsed fandom.

[Sean Fennessey]

The Braves, I could not agree more. Fuck them. So anyhow, and how wonderful it's been. Watch them completely fall apart this year anyhow, with Pete. I don't know what the plan was. I think the sentimental fan loves Pete. He's homegrown. He has been a dominant power hitter for six seasons now. He's just a very likable guy. He seems, he's just a goofball and he seems like a very nice person. And from the cold hearted analytics standpoint, he's exactly the kind of player who just does not age well. And so David Stearns is extremely shrewd. And you could, you, you could tell since the moment Stearns arrived that Alonzo is just kind of not exactly his kind of player. You know, he is defensively limited, he is prone.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's funny because they talk every game about how elite his stretching is from first base. Great stretch guy. Look at that stretch from Pete.

[Sean Fennessey]

His stretching and scooping actually is elite, but his range is really limited and he has, it has a tendency to just have brain farts when it comes to throwing the ball. In fact, he had a brain fart throwing the ball to Kodai Senga like three or four weeks ago. That forced Senga to kind of reach up and then that had him strain his.

[Rob Mahoney]

He's coming back though.

[Sean Fennessey]

He is coming back this week, Friday I think. Anyhow, Pete is wonderful. I don't know how you can justify a five year, $150 million contract for him in the off season because that would be like, like just not good baseball strategy. And yet I would like him to hit 600 home runs and retire as a Met. So what do you do with that?

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't.

[Sean Fennessey]

I really don't know.

[Rob Mahoney]

So this is so basketball, like analyst brain. Coming back to baseball is really interesting for a lot of reasons. One of which is, you know, like in. I'm not comparing these two things, but like, you see in basketball these sort of like lifetime achievement contracts for the guy who's been on the team his whole year, and they're like objectively bad contracts. Kobe would be the classic example. And now even just coming back into this last season as Alonzo hits the. The all time great home run against the brewers. And now he's off to this great start and I'm learning about his history of the team and what he means to the chemistry of the team. The fan in me is like, can we just. Could this guy just be on the team forever? Like he should just feels like he should be a forever player. And I understand how that cuts against the grain of how sports actually works since I cover another sport rather intensely. Similarly, I'm checking the standings every day, and I couldn't even tell you right now how the baseball playoffs actually work anymore. Like, how many teams get into it, who plays who and this and that. I obviously know the division winners all get in and there's a benefit to being one of the top two division winners. And then there's wild card teams. So I'm like the jockeying between the Mets, the Phillies, the Cubs, and probably the Dodgers. Dodgers come back a little bit, but let's just put them on a pedestal. It's very important to me. And then I'm like, man, let's say they finished second to the Phillies and they're a wild card team again. I don't know how this works. I could be wrong, but I'm like, man, 162 games. And then you just like, it comes down to a game like, this is what I'm emotionally putting my heart on the line for, at least in the NBA. Like, I get in and if I'm a good team, like, I pretty much know where I stand and it's pretty predictable. Like is like, I don't know if I'm ready for this is what I'm saying.

[Sean Fennessey]

The opposite is also true, which is something that I've been struggling with. And when they, you know, added additional teams to the playoff structure, I didn't like it. At first, because you watched a couple of teams that I felt were inferior get really hot. Like the Arizona Diamondbacks had an incredible run to the World Series with a team that I thought was okay. And they just. As baseball is, you kind of have these 10 or 15 game stretches where you get really hot or really cold and if your team is really hot, you can make a run. Then last year, the Mets were that team. You know, the Mets played really, really well in the second half of the year. But then through the playoffs they had heroics after heroics. They had these extraordinary moments. Guys like Mark Vientos, who's hitting like 180 this year, hasn't been great. He looked like an absolute stud in the playoffs, especially against the Phillies. So I don't really know what to do about that. You know, like you can draw bad luck and get eliminated in a one game playoff and then the whole season seems like a waste. Or you can be a wild card team and you can run all the way to the, you know, National League Championship or even to the World Series and maybe even win. So it is different than it was when we were growing up when it felt like making the playoffs alone meant you were one of the elite teams in the sport, you know, or you were one of the five or six or maybe even three or four elite teams in the sport. It's different now. It is much more of a. It feels much more like a tournament than it, than it did in the past. But I can't be too mad at it because last playoffs was some of the most fun I've ever had as a baseball fan.

[Rob Mahoney]

What were they, was it 99 when they were in the wild card game against the Reds? Ricky Henderson hit a home run that game. I was a high school teacher that year. It was my first year. And so talk about like they had to win that game. That was a must win game. Obviously it was a, Was it a wild card playoff game? Like it was a playoff game to become the wild card team? It was a one and done situation.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think it was because there was a tie right at the end of the season. Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

And I had one particular class that was just unruly. Just. They were nice kids. They were just unruly. And I said the day of that game to them, I'm going to make you guys a deal. If Al Leiter throws a complete game shut out tonight, none of you speak for the entire class unless you are spoken to by me. And God damn it, Al Lighter threw a complete game shutout in that game. And they all came in silent. Oh, they listened. And I, Initially, after about 20 minutes, I was like, all right, I'm going to drop. I'm going to drop. Real unbelievable. Al lighter.

[Sean Fennessey]

Wow. Okay, last comet like event. I mean, there's no way you could replicate both the complete game shutout and the kids not talking.

[Rob Mahoney]

Probably like 132 pitches of all lighter, just sweating through every three, two count imaginable.

[Sean Fennessey]

It was like a different sport back then too. Now if you can get a pitcher past 90, it's, it's shocking.

[Rob Mahoney]

This is, this is part of what I'm learning is like, so I guess the starter is just going to go four and two thirds like every game. That's just what it is now. Like, David Peterson pitched eight. I think when I went playing it was like, is this the world record now for longest?

[Sean Fennessey]

He was being treated as though he were Cy Young himself.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay, last question and then I have a story for you. This is coming from someone who chipped my parents wall throwing a remote control, a television remote control, out of rage, out of a job over a John Franco blown safe.

[Sean Fennessey]

Sure, I remember him well.

[Rob Mahoney]

This is coming from someone who never trusted Armando Benitez to walk across the street. Okay. I wouldn't trust him to walk my mom across the street. Despite the gouty numbers and the fastballs and all that. Was wildly unsurprised when he blew a save in game one of the subway series. I kind of trust Edwin Diaz. Should I trust him? Like I really trust him when he comes in the game? Like, this guy's fucking awesome. Is he just awesome? I trust him already more than I trusted any of those guys. Am I being stupid?

[Sean Fennessey]

I don't think so. Now I know that mentally he is prone to doing things that infuriate fans who are especially fans. Tell me, because I don't know this well, two things. One, he will occasionally just walk the nine hitter on four pitches to start an inning. That's Benitez, which is, which is a sin as a closer.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

Secondarily, he's historically bad at holding runners. And so he gives up a lot of stolen bases now.

[Rob Mahoney]

No idea. Interesting.

[Sean Fennessey]

That has been mitigated by the fact that Luis Terenz has been their catcher who is one of the very best at throwing runners out. In fact, there's been. There was a moment earlier this season where Diaz had a runner on base and Terence threw him out and there was a replay. This happened like a week and a half ago. Anyway, so there are some hang ups with Diaz and he has had a really parabola like career as a Met where when he was first here, I want to say it was in 2020 when that trade happened. He was traded for a very high end prospect named Jared Kelanick. And Mets fans were mad because he was an elite outfield prospect and they struggled with their outfield for years. Kalanick never shook out. But Diaz was awful in his first season and a half as a Met. And then by 2022 he became the single best closer in baseball. And he was extraordinary that year. And then he played in the World Baseball Classic. He, I believe tore his, not his Achilles. I'm not sure what he injured himself celebrating.

[Rob Mahoney]

He's the celebrating guy.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes. Yeah, he had a knee injury celebrating and he had a long recovery to come back. And then last year he was good. But up and down this season he has looked again like the best closer in baseball. He's given up one run in two and a half months and I don't think people realize he has not blown a save this year. I'm not sure people realize that. It's actually quite strange that he's not in the All Star Game.

[Rob Mahoney]

So this is, this is me.

[Sean Fennessey]

I mentioned before he is in the All Star Game. I apologize. He's in the All Star Game.

[Rob Mahoney]

I am the most dangerous kind of fan in that I have a little bit of information and I'm extrapolating a lot from it. And I've clearly re engaged at the best stretch of this dude's career. And so now I trust him. I trust him with my life on a baseball field much more than I ever trusted any Mets closer. And I'm now, now you're setting me up for like, okay, maybe I need to step back. But I can't now. It's too late. I trust him.

[Sean Fennessey]

I have in person watched some of the worst implosions in baseball closer history from him in circa 2020. I mean he was, he was God awful.

[Rob Mahoney]

Remember when we traded for Billy Taylor from the A's to fortify our bullpen?

[Sean Fennessey]

That didn't work.

[Rob Mahoney]

Didn't. Didn't go great.

[Sean Fennessey]

Didn't work.

[Rob Mahoney]

All right, last thing I is a little story. Have you heard my Aaron Boone story yet?

[Sean Fennessey]

No. Let's hear it.

[Rob Mahoney]

All right, so last year in June, my high school that I graduated from asked me to be the commencement speaker at the school. Nice honor, right? It's like 600 kids graduating class. There's probably like 5,000 people watching me speak.

[Sean Fennessey]

Unbelievable.

[Rob Mahoney]

Terrifying. And so in Fairfield County, Connecticut, lowest hanging Fruit to get young people engaged in what you're saying about sports is anything Mets versus Yankees, it's just like you get everybody riled up. And so in the middle of my speech, I have this joke about how, you know, look, you get choices in life between good and evil. Like, one of the choices is Mets versus Yankees. And, you know, one is good, one is evil. And it was better than that. And I talked about how I had bonded with my Mets fans friends in the mid-90s about Generation K and how, you know, I didn't mention Generation K, but I mentioned just bonding with them.

[Sean Fennessey]

And it was a name drop. Bill Pulsifer in front of a pulsar.

[Rob Mahoney]

He was my favorite member of Generation.

[Sean Fennessey]

K. He was awesome. I thought he was, at least.

[Rob Mahoney]

And so I get. And I. And I called back to it later in the speech, and it got a great reaction both times. People are like, booing, cheering. It's exactly what I wanted. And I sit down, back in my seat after a speech, just on a high, like 11 minutes. Nailed it. Everybody thought it was great. And the principal of the school comes up to me. He's whispering. He's like, yeah, so we didn't look at your speech ahead of time. We should have told you. Aaron Boone's son is graduating today, and he's here. He skipped their game against the Orioles to be in the audience for this. And I look straight at him and I go, good. I'm fucking glad. Even more glad that I said it this time. And so then I learned people who I knew were sitting with Aaron Boone in the stands when I said the joke. And he was a very good sport about it. And everyone looked at him. Boone, if you're listening, you got to come on Mets corner to remember how apparently I maybe, like, almost ruined your son's high school graduation. I was. He. The principal was so, like, trepidatious. Like, I'm. I'm so sorry to tell you this. Like, he thought I was going to be mortified. And I was like, good, I'm glad Aaron Boone was here. All right, Sean Fennesee, we'll reconvene maybe in a. In a week or two weeks or something. We're going to do this regularly. Hopefully not for this long. I'm sorry I kept you on, but the first one might as well go along on the first one. Enjoy the doubleheader today. Thank you for coming on.

[Sean Fennessey]

You too, buddy. Thanks, Zach.

[Rob Mahoney]

All right, that's it for another edition of the Zach Low Show. Thanks, Rob Mahoney. Thanks, Sean. Fenisty Thanks New York Mets for being back in my life. Thanks to Jesse, Chris and Isaiah on production today. We'll be back next week from Las Vegas. Scheduled tbd. We're hoping to have some celebrity NBA guests on and in addition to our usual stuff stuff. Thank you for listening to the Zach Low show. Must be 21 and over and present in select states. For Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over in President D.C. gambling problem called 1-800- gambler or visit FanDuel.com RG call 1-887-897-777 or is it ccpg.org chat in Connecticut, or is it mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland? Hope is here. Visit Gambling Helpline M A or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 Sport in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPENY or text HOPENY in New York.