NBA Finals Are Here! All the Info You Need from Podcast Row

Summary

The Zach Lowe Show – NBA Finals Are Here! All the Info You Need from Podcast Row

Podcast: The Zach Lowe Show
Host: Zach Lowe
Date: June 3, 2026
Episode Theme: A star-studded, fast-paced NBA Finals preview and roundtable, live from “Podcast Row” at the Finals in San Antonio. Zach hosts Hall of Famers, analysts, beat writers, and recent NBA legends—digging into Knicks vs. Spurs, telling war stories, and examining critical swing factors for the series.

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Episode Overview

The NBA Finals have arrived, hosted this year in San Antonio. Zach broadcasts onsite from the league’s first-ever NBA “Podcast Row”—akin to the NFL’s radio row—with T-shirts lining the seats and the Jumbotron awkwardly set up on the floor. He’s joined by an all-star lineup:

• Hall of Fame guard and legendary defender Gary Payton
• Seven-time champion and playoff icon Robert Horry
• Current ESPN analyst and X's & O's expert Tim Legler
• Leading Knicks insider Ian Begley
• Recent Twyman-Stokes Teammate of the Year DeAndre Jordan

Each guest brings unique memories—Finals experience, coaching tales, locker room stories, playoff analysis, and more—as they preview a much-anticipated Knicks-Spurs series and reminisce about pivotal moments in NBA history.

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Key Segments and Discussion Points

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1. Gary Payton – The Art of Defense and Stories from the ’96, ’04, and ’06 Finals (03:00 – 15:51)

On Guarding Wembanyama

• Payton outlines how “prime Gary Payton” would defend Victor Wembanyama:

  “I would just try to keep him out on the perimeter, make him dribble, try to steal it, and keep him uncomfortable... hit at his hands, keep him uncomfortable.” (03:27)

On Brunson Comparisons

• Jalen Brunson reminds him most of Nick Van Exel for his creative lefty game; era differences in physicality and defense (hand-checking, taking guys on both ends).

On Offensive Players "Pushing Off"

• Strongly dislikes the modern trend of offensive players getting away with push-offs:

  “I don’t like it because it doesn’t give a defender an opportunity to guard anybody… always gives the offensive player the most advantage.” (05:22)

On the ’96 NBA Finals & Defending Michael Jordan

• Wanted to guard MJ from the start; coach George Karl hesitated due to Payton’s offensive load and an injury. Took it upon himself by Game 3:

  “I told him, no… I’m guarding him. No matter who you assign me to.” (06:19)

• On not being able to change the past: “We can’t go back in a time capsule.”

Seattle Supersonics Legacy and Relationship to the Thunder

• Seattle still deeply matters—Payton is closely involved with efforts to restore the Sonics.
• No lingering hostility toward Oklahoma City, but blames Seattle’s old ownership for the team’s departure.

Finals Memories: ’04 Lakers & Kobe, Shaq, Chauncey Billups

• On the famous 0.4 shot: trusted to inbound the ball, noticed everyone keying on Kobe, found Fisher for the iconic buzzer-beater. Afterwards, Phil Jackson joked that Payton “never follows the play, but it worked.” (09:27)
• On Phil Jackson’s account that he didn’t want to guard Chauncey Billups: “That wasn't the way it went… I still guarded Chauncey.” (12:18)

Legendary Trash Talkers

• Larry Bird considered the “best trash talker I ever heard.”

  “Larry would always tell you… ‘I’m gonna shoot this next shot right here in this corner… if it doesn’t go in, I’ll quit basketball.’” (Hilarious Bird vs. Xavier McDaniel story, 13:45)

Finals Prediction

• Picks Spurs in seven games, impressed by their hunger, and Wembanyama’s rapid rise:

  “I think San Antonio’s building something… and I think they’re going to get a taste of it.” (15:02)

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2. Tim Legler – X’s & O’s Breakdown: Finals Matchups and Swing Factors (15:53 – 31:03)

Breaking Down Thunder-Spurs Game 7

• Credits Spurs’ role players (Keldon Johnson, Dylan Harper, Champagne) for their clutch shot-making under pressure—not just Wemby.
• On Chet Holmgren’s disappearing act: “He took one shot the rest of the game. I don’t know that I’ve ever seen anything quite like that for a guy on that level.” (17:11)

Analyzing the Spurs-Knicks Matchup

• Defensive assignments: Thinks Anunoby should guard Wembanyama as much as possible:

  “[Anunoby has] the physical profile… Laterally strong, enough height… push him out on the floor when he goes to set screens…” (19:32)

• Spurs’ motion offense puts huge pressure on who Towns guards. “You might see a little bit of everything.”

Spurs Defense vs. Knicks Offense

• Wemby’s unique rim-protection disrupts the typical offense—the first guy “dictating terms to the offense” and “just waves goodbye” to screening actions.
• Predicts Knicks’ 3pt volume must rise, warns if their percentage dips: “If that number drops to 29%, 21% with the volume going up, you don’t have a chance.” (23:42)
• Knicks live by points in the paint & fast breaks—Spurs reduce or erase both.

X-Factors

• Mitchell Robinson: “His health could swing the entire NBA Finals… If you don’t get your share of second-chance opportunities against this team, you’ll have a hard time.” (25:15)
• Dylan Harper (Spurs): “Not phased… Physical… If he has big games off bench, it’s tough to beat this team.”
• Defensive closing lineups with Harper/Cassel/Wemby = “you can’t even score on the Spurs.”

Predictions & Series Outlook

• Legler wants a long series, thinks the Knicks must split in San Antonio or the math gets ugly.
• Expects classic, close Finals moments: “I think we’re going to get several… coming out of that timeout, anybody can win this game.” (30:16)

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3. Robert Horry – Playoff Lore: Big Shot Bob, Playoff Connections, and Key Memories (31:08 – 47:57)

Favorite Title Run: ‘95 Rockets

• “Brotherhood” of beating Stockton/Malone, Barkley/KJ, Robinson/Rodman, then Shaq/Penny; Hakeem “locked in” after MVP slight and “doing stuff we hadn’t seen all season.” (32:06)

Nickname Origins – Big Shot Bob or Rob?

• “Started out as Bob… my mom didn’t like that, so it became Rob.” (32:43)

Knicks Finals and O.J. Game

• Hilarious retelling of the infamous Knicks-Rockets “O.J. chase” game: locker rooms at halftime realized the game tape was useless, all O.J. all night.

Classic Moments: Starks’ Blocked Shot (94 Finals)

• Describes watching Hakeem barely block Starks’ potentially title-winning 3:

  “Dream’s not gonna get there… go-go gadget arms… I think Stark makes that if Dream doesn’t block it. Thank you, Dream.” (34:32)

Locker Room & Coaching Conflict

• Tells tales of Danny Ainge battles (thrown baseball, traded from Suns to Lakers, “I probably just won you another championship”). His only apology: “If it was anyone but Danny Ainge.”

On Being Locker Room “Glue Guy” on Lakers

• The Shaq-Kobe dynamic was manageable with the right veteran group (B. Shaw, Fox, Fisher, Horry, etc.)—credited “holding guys accountable” as crucial to success.

  “People think the coaches are the voice. It's those veteran players...” (38:05)

Spurs Years and Iconic Finals Shot (2005 vs. Pistons)

• Breaks down Rasheed leaving him open for the Manu inbound pass and game-winning three: “I was like, no he didn’t just leave me open… I’ve never been this hot in my life.” (41:17)
• Forgotten moment: Poster dunk on Rip Hamilton in the same game—Rip always tells Horry, “You’re the only guy that’s ever dunked on me in the NBA.”

Hall of Fame Views

• Cites career versatility: “First player ever to do 100 blocks, 100 steals, 100 threes in a season.”
• Feels accomplishments sometimes “get squashed” for being a role player on star teams: “If it weren’t for me, there’d probably be five championships that some of those guys wouldn’t have won.” (45:20)

Warriors, Hip Check, and More

• Shares his close relationship with Steve Nash, the infamous ’07 hip check (“I’m a wall, Steve Nash was a tennis ball…”), and still gripes about his suspension and lost salary.

Finals Pick

• Picks Spurs in six: "Brunson is a liability defensively... The Spurs have no such liability." (47:04)

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4. Ian Begley – Knicks Insider: Injuries, Alternate Timelines, and Franchise Turnaround (51:25 – 65:06)

Mitchell Robinson’s Injury

• “Looks like he’s going to play" but will clearly be limited with pinky/fifth metacarpal injury. Explains why it’s significant: rebounding, lobs, and productivity all at risk (52:12).
• Rumor mill debunked: Injury occurred at home, “no consternation” from the team.

The Life of a Knicks Beat Writer in the Finals

• Now in demand from every acquaintance—ticket requests, Knicks updates, ad hoc reporting, friends from years ago.

The “Donovan Mitchell That Never Was”

• Recounts summer of the almost-Mitchell trade: “People around Mitchell saying: ‘This is gonna get done’… Leon Rose ultimately drew a line.”
• Passing on the trade opened the door to later major moves and kept key assets for the current Finals run.

Evolution of Knicks’ Culture

• “There’s a competence… the clowns, the circus stuff, the buffoonery—it’s not there any more.”
• Contrasts with “lowlight” moments—a litany of dysfunctional past coaches and front offices (i.e. Derek Fisher missing practice, Kurt Rambis's Twitter controversy, etc.).
• Wonders if Leon Rose's decades “front-row seat” as an agent primed him to avoid Knicks’ old pitfalls.

Key Turning Points and Organizational Change

• Josh Hart’s arrival (trade) viewed by the organization as just below Brunson in importance: "You can’t appreciate him by looking at a box score… He just wants to make the four guys on the floor better." (57:06)
• On Tom Thibodeau vs. Mike Brown: “They didn’t think so…with Thibs, the further you went, the more intense he got. These guys are light right now.”

Team Mindset Shift After Atlanta Loss

• Miles McBride’s quote: "We knew we were a good team, but waiting for the opponent to give us the game… shifted to: we have to go out and take the game." (60:56)
• Confidence/bravado driven by Jalen Brunson’s leadership and the team’s insularity from outside noise.

Finals Predictions

• Begley: Knicks in 6. Lowe: Official pick, Knicks in 7. (Both agree on a long, competitive series; respect Spurs’ edge and wonder if the Knicks’ “alchemy” can carry them.)

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5. DeAndre Jordan – The NBA’s Great Teammate: Mentorship, Knicks/Nets, Lob City, and Staying Ready (65:20 – 79:19)

On Jalen Brunson and Mentoring Mitchell Robinson

• Played with rookie Brunson on the Mavs: “He was always super talented… sometimes behind Luka, but this situation has helped him blossom in New York.” (66:25)
• Mentored rookie Robinson with the Knicks: “We worked together a ton… saw myself in him as a young player. He’s going to be huge in this series.” (67:03)

The Knicks “Super Team” That Wasn't

• Confirms: There was legitimate talk of KD, Kyrie, and DJ all joining the Knicks, but ultimately they “chose Brooklyn… a great experience despite falling short.” (68:45)
• Remembers the wild Nets era with “global pandemic, all the injuries, harden—there’s a lot of universes where it works out.”

The Infamous “DeAndre Kidnapping” Free Agency

• Shares his perspective on the infamous Clippers/Mavs saga: “I didn’t want to leave a certain job and take another job. That’s all that happened.” (71:14)
• Laughs at NBA Twitter that day—claims he was home, emphasizes decisions were difficult and ultimately about where his “heart” was.

The Art of Role Acceptance – Late Career

• On staying ready: Played in the championship-clinching game for the Nuggets when called upon.

  “People talk about staying ready but that’s a real thing… This is the opportunity I wanted, whatever minutes I got. I just kind of embraced their role.” (73:30)

• Wins Twyman-Stokes (Teammate of the Year) Award: “It shows how someone adapts… Now I’m pouring back into the next generation, like guys did for me.” (75:00)

Social Media Hatchet: Unblocking Zach Lowe

• Lowe: “You have blocked me on Twitter for 10 years.”
• DJ: “I did. This is 10 years ago… At that point, JJ [Redick]’s little ass needs to get out of the way… Any rebound coming off was MINE.” (77:44)
• Agrees, live on air, to finally unblock Lowe.

Finals Outlook & Vibes

• Won’t pick a winner, but expects a “long, wild series” and says both teams are “hungry and ready.” (75:56 – 76:24)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• Gary Payton: “Larry Bird was the best trash talker I ever heard.” (13:32)
• Tim Legler: “If the Knicks’ 3pt % drops to 21% with the volume going up, you don’t have a chance.” (23:42)
• Robert Horry: “Nobody talks about that [2005 shot]… I’ve never been this hot in my life.” (41:17)
• Ian Begley: “There’s a competence… the circus stuff, the buffoonery—it’s not there anymore.”
• DeAndre Jordan: “JJ’s little ass needs to get out of the way! Every rebound was mine.” (77:44)
• Zach Lowe’s running theme: “All I want is a long, wild, crazy series.”

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Important Timestamps (MM:SS)

• 03:00 – 15:51: Gary Payton’s in-depth interview
• 15:53 – 31:03: Tim Legler deep-dives the finals matchups
• 31:08 – 47:57: Robert Horry’s playoff stories and predictions
• 51:25 – 65:06: Ian Begley’s Knicks storylines and reporting
• 65:20 – 79:19: DeAndre Jordan on mentorship and Finals life

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Conclusion

This special NBA Finals episode sweeps through the league’s epic moments, key Finals matchups, new-school tactics, and treasured old-school rivalries. Lowe and his guests blend analysis, behind-the-scenes storytelling, and blunt honesty—offering invaluable perspectives for NBA junkies and casual fans. With the Finals set for a potentially classic showdown, the episode captures the anticipation, strategy, and rich history surrounding Knicks-Spurs, and the state of the Association at large.

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For anyone who missed the pod, this summary delivers all the essential storylines, strategic wrinkles, and NBA folklore—straight from the voices who shaped and study the game.

Transcript

[Zach Lowe]

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[Gary Payton]

Good, I'm good. Good. How are you?

[Zach Lowe]

You ready to be at the Finals?

[Gary Payton]

I'm always ready to be at the Finals. It's going to be a great situation, great moment. Two great teams, I think young team, one young team, one in the middle. So I'm going to see what happens.

[Zach Lowe]

Defensive player of the year, one of the best defenders of all time. The two main offensive cogs on these two teams could not be any more different than they are. If you had to switch on to Victor Wembanyama, what would you prime Gary Payton do to try to guard him on a switch?

[Gary Payton]

Well, what I would do is I would just try to keep him on a perimeter. You got to keep him out there and try to make him dribble the basketball and I'll try to steal a basketball, make him uncomfortable, you know. And I think that until he gets a bigger style, bigger size and stature and can push me down, I would be underneath him a lot. I would try to make him uncomfortable and try to steal the ball and hit at his hands and do things like that and just keep him on the perimeter.

[Zach Lowe]

Was there anyone on the flip side who from your time was like if anybody most similar to Jalen Brunson in terms of trying to time up their footwork, old school game? I mean, you guarded a lot of great guards. You had playoff battles with John Stockton over and over again. Is there anyone that Brunson reminds you of and what are the challenges of guarding him?

[Gary Payton]

You know, John was the best to me ever. But I think Nick Vagan also reminds me of Bronson a lot, you know, because they both are lefties. They both can get to where they want to get and score the basketball. But Bronson is in a different era. We can hand check, we can be more physical, you know, and then it wasn't a lot of doubling, it wasn't a lot of zones. We could take him back on the other end of the floor and punish him and make him play defense instead of just letting us be on offense and be always the target. You gotta have him to be the target and wear him down a little bit. And that's what I would have did to him. And that's why it was great for me. Because when somebody went at me, I can go back at them. I can call my own play and I saw him and then make him play. And then if people come and I can see them, I can dish it and get it to my guys. But I think Nick Van Elsa was just like Bronson. They could go. They can shoot the mid range. I think Nick shoot the three a little bit better than he did. But I'm just saying he is right there. His mid range game, once he gets you into that spot, he's just like Shai, they're deadly from the free throw line in. But, you know, a lot of pushing off has been happening.

[Zach Lowe]

What do you think of that? What do you think of the pushing off? That's been a big debate in the last six years.

[Gary Payton]

Yeah, I don't like it because it doesn't give a defender an opportunity to guard anybody. It always give the offensive player the most advantage when he's pushing off and putting you off balance. I think you should let him play. Heads up. We wouldn't have let that happen because I think of our hand checking rule and we would have kept our hand on their hip. And if they would have pushed off, we can. They can see us getting pushed off in our upper chest. But they're seeing now when you go down and you wear your shoulder and extend, that's. That's a legal play. But I don't think, I don't think it's good for the defender because he can't guard that.

[Zach Lowe]

All right, let's talk Finals playoff history. Gary Payton, 96, finals, sonics, bulls. The famous story is that midway through the series, I think you're already down three zero, maybe three zero. You go to George Carr and you're like, hey, man, it's about freaking time. Just let me guard Michael. So what do you remember from that conversation? And had you asked already before the series even started? Like, no, man, Game one put me on Michael Jordan. I want to do it.

[Gary Payton]

Yeah, that was it. I had one defensive player of the year and he was, he was an offensive guy of the NBA. So I had, I wanted to do that, but I was hurt and he didn't want to. He didn't want to. He didn't want to exalt me, exert me. And then make me didn't have no offense for us because I was our offensive guy, too, with Sean, so he didn't want to do that and run and wear me down. So when the time came in Game three, I told him no. I went in there right when we were on a plane, and I said, I don't care what you say I'm guarding from now on, no matter who

[Zach Lowe]

you assign me to, I'm taking him.

[Gary Payton]

I'm taking him. I don't care who you assign him to, I'm taking him. And then it changed for us in the next two games, and we made it a series. But, you know, I should have guarded him in the Game one, and hopefully I wish it would have been different, but we can't. We can't go in a time capsule and go back.

[Zach Lowe]

Are you still in touch with Sean Kemp? Like, I can close everyday eyes and see the left side pick and roll. Gary Payton, Shawn Kemp, are you guys

[Gary Payton]

still, like, every day I talk to him every day. I talk to him every day. It's about my phone call with him in a minute. So I talked to him yesterday. I talked to Sean. Him. Him and Detlef, I talked to a lot. We're best friends. Like, I go see Dadliff in Palm Spring, where he's at right now, and Sean is in Seattle. I'll see Sean Friday. We're together Friday in Seattle. So I'm with them, too, a lot.

[Zach Lowe]

So the city of Seattle still, like, means something to you personally?

[Gary Payton]

Absolutely.

[Zach Lowe]

When that team comes back, do you want to be involved with it somehow?

[Gary Payton]

There's going to be a big ball with the team. It's going to be a big involvement with us, the group that's trying to get it. They're very involved with us, and we're very involved with them. We want to make this successful. We should have never lost it. We shouldn't have never lost the supersonics. But it is what it is. NBA and Adam Silver has gave us the opportunity to get it back, and now we're going to make it very, very good.

[Zach Lowe]

I was going to ask you if the Thunder are not here, the spurs are here, but I was going to ask you either way. Like, as a Seattle guy, do you hold some hostility? Have you gotten over it? Like, how do you perceive the Thunder?

[Gary Payton]

Oh, hostility against a guy who took it away from us and how it shoots. I hold him accountable for that. And I don't have nothing against Oklahoma City. Oklahoma City did what they were supposed to. Bennett went and took the team to his home to his hometown and did it. Who cared? We shouldn't have never lost it because of our bad ownership that we had. And that's what it was. So I'm just saying it's great now that we got it back. It's been 19 years, and it's going to be great for them to come back. And when they do come back, we're going to be a big part of it. A lot of us old school guys that was there and made it happen, we're going to try to make it happen again.

[Zach Lowe]

So you get a title with the heat in 2006, but before that, the team that everyone thought you were going to get your title with, with the 2004 Lakers. So I went back and watched a little bit. I forgot you threw the inbounds pass to Derek Fisher on the 0.4 shot.

[Gary Payton]

Here, here.

[Zach Lowe]

What do you remember, like, about the play call? Was he the first option? Like, when did you decide? Like, what are you looking for when you decide, well, he's the guy I got to go to? I mean, it's not like a. Like a crazy, daring pass, but it's a read you got to make. And I forgot you had thrown it.

[Gary Payton]

Well, you know, when we went in the huddle and Phil was there, Phil was drawing the play up to Kobe, and they was already reacting to Kobe. And you remember Kobe had made big shot. He had made a big one, big shot to turn around and hit one to beat him earlier in the series. And I knew they were going to look for him. And I just told Fish, I said, fish, just run the play, man, because they're going to forget about you. And that was it. And I just made a decision. I just said, that's why Phil had me taking the ball out, because he was very confident in me and had a lot of trust in me to make the right. And when I made a decision and we went back to the locker room when we won, he said, you defy me again, you don't never listen to me. I said, well, Phil, look what happened. We won, you know, and he was wide open and they was looking for Kobe, and Fish made a big shot.

[Zach Lowe]

That was a tumultuous year for, though, for you. Have you read Phil's book about that season?

[Gary Payton]

I have. I have. Phil, he says what's on his mind and he does everything. And we had a. We had a. We had a heck of a year, but it was a learning experience for me. And the reason I like it is because I got to know Kobe better than anybody. And now I got to know him in a different way, and I miss him a lot. We were getting very close. He started being close with my son Gary, who's playing in the NBA now. They were.

[Zach Lowe]

I'm aware of. I'm aware of.

[Gary Payton]

So it's like I got to meet a guy that people misunderstood. He was just a competitor. He was a basketball player, and he did things. Shaq was the reason I was there anyway. He's a brother to me, too. Our family is just like. Almost like family. So it was one of them things. And then I got to play with Karl Malone, which is one of my best friends, too, as of right now. And me and him got really, really close. So it was a great year for me to go to the Lakers and do that. We didn't complete the job. We were hurt all year, and we still made it to the finals and played against a good Detroit team.

[Zach Lowe]

And obviously, that's the year Kobe's going back and forth from Colorado.

[Gary Payton]

Colorado.

[DeAndre Jordan]

Yeah.

[Gary Payton]

And that was a lot of things. And you forgot Shaq was dealing with his contract issues. And then we only had. We only had Carl for. For 22 games.

[Ian Begley]

So that was.

[Zach Lowe]

And he was hurt in the Finals, too.

[Gary Payton]

Yeah, he was hurt in the finals. We missed him for 60. And then he got hurt right back when he came right back and hurt the same hurt. The same injury. And it was just something that wasn't meant for us to be.

[Zach Lowe]

So there's a story in that book I wanted to ask you about, because it doesn't sound like you. Phil tells a story about you're playing the Pistons in the finals, and Kobe says in some team meeting, hey, man, I want to guard Billups. I want to guard Chauncey. And Kobe tells Phil later, I wasn't really agitating to guard Chauncey. I wanted Gary to speak up and say he wanted to stay on Chauncey. And Gary didn't say anything. And that told me all he needed to know. Do you remember that? Because I don't ever. I would never imagine you being like, I don't want to guard Chauncey, or I'm not.

[Gary Payton]

I didn't. I didn't. That wasn't the way it went. We had a. What happened was, is everybody was blaming it because Chauncey was making a lot of shots because we were. They were putting us in pick and rolls, and they were putting us in the pick and rolls with. With Shaquille. And everybody knows Shaq, he stays back. And Chauncey was coming off shooting the jumpers. And I was always behind him. So I said, hey, blame everything on me. I don't care. I said, if we just play straight up, I can guard Chauncey because Chauncey wasn't that type of basketball player to get away from you. And that's what it was. He was coming off picks and he was making it. And what was happening is they were sucking it in and he was hitting a lot of open shots. And at that time, I was so upset, I didn't want to make no animosity between people, so I just told Colby whatever. But I still guarded Chauncey. I still guarded him in the games and we just said forget it. But it was happening because our defense wasn't the way it was supposed to be with the Lakers at the time. And I didn't want to make no controversy, you know what I'm saying? I didn't want to start no things doing the finals and I just wanted to keep it cordial.

[Zach Lowe]

Couple more very quick questions. You are a legendary trash talker. Who in your time could rival you in trash talking?

[Gary Payton]

Only one guy I think would have did it and only played against him two seasons, and that was Larry Bird. I think Larry Bird was the best legendary trash talker. I think he was the best trash talker I ever heard.

[Zach Lowe]

Can you give me anything? Can you give me hilariousm?

[Gary Payton]

Well, Larry would always tell you, I'm gonna give you just one story. It was my Rookie year. Xavier McDaniel was on our team. Him and Xavier was having a battle and they didn't like each other. And he, he told Larry, Larry told him that I'm a bus. Your a Every time I play you, if I don't have as many points on you. And they were blowing us out in the garden and they're up 20 and next thing you know, we look at the bench at the score table and Larry Bird is coming back in. He had already told us. He said, I'm going to shoot a jumper in Xavier's face. I'm going to have as many points on him, and if I don't, I'll quit basketball. And when he came back in, he said, I ain't got what I'm supposed to have. And he said, yeah, X man. You supposed to be the X man. Come on over here because I'm gonna shoot this next shot right here in this corner. And if it hit any, anything in the rim, anything, I'm gonna keep shooting it and I won't go come back in the game the next play. Shot it all net, didn't touch nothing. And he had his 30 and he did. He went in and he sat down and he said, I told you, you ain't gonna never talk to me like that. And that was Larry Bird.

[Zach Lowe]

We gotta go because you gotta shuffle off to another podcast and I gotta shuffle someone in. But last question, you gotta pick for this series.

[Gary Payton]

Well, I think they'll go seven. I think it's gonna be a good series. I think the San Antonio's got a momentum. I think the Knicks got a momentum. But right now, you start off here, who's got the. Who's got the home court advantage? I think it didn't happen last, last series with Oklahoma, but I think this Knicks team is. San Antonio spurs is building something with the guy who's starting to take over the NBA start. Yeah, it's happening and it's happening. And I think that he's very, very mobile. He can guard a lot of things. He's going to make a lot of havoc, but he's got a lot of four good other guys around him, too, with that little cast he got around him. And I think they're very hungry and I think they done got over the top. They got over that hump of being young. Now they're here, and I think they're going to get a taste of it.

[Zach Lowe]

Gary Payton says Spurs in seven. Gary, thank you for your time, man. It's great to see you. Honored to have you on.

[Gary Payton]

Thank you.

[Zach Lowe]

Next up on Podcast row. I guess that's what they're calling it. Tim Legler in the flesh of ESPN of the All City Podcast. Come on our podcast a bunch of times. How you doing?

[Tim Legler]

I'm great, man. Are you kidding me? Living the dream. This is amazing.

[Zach Lowe]

Good series, right? We got a good matchup.

[Tim Legler]

Couldn't ask for more in the matchup storylines. I mean, I feel like if this doesn't pique your interest and not forget basketball fans. Just like if you like sports, if this doesn't pique your interest, I don't know what's wrong with you.

[Zach Lowe]

Wemby by himself has sparked so much curiosity among all the, like, casual fans in my life. And then you add in The Knicks in 53 years in New York City. It's like a perfect storm of stuff. But I haven't gotten to talk to you. Game seven, Thunder Spurs. What was your reaction to that game? Whether it was Chet, whether it was. What did Wemby do to the Thunder offense? Was it injuries? Like, if you were the Thunder, what's your takeaway from having your would be dynasty. At least stop for a moment for

[Tim Legler]

me making the checklist of kind of like as I'm sitting at home at the Jersey shore. It was nice. It was off. Had a beer in my hand watching the game with a couple buddies.

[Zach Lowe]

What kind of beer? Take us, give us the picture.

[Tim Legler]

I got a new favorite beer. Can I say it? Yeah. Okay. Mango carton.

[Ian Begley]

I don't even.

[Zach Lowe]

I don't. I think I have heard of that.

[Tim Legler]

I moved down to Florida five years ago. I saw it in the store. Like, what's this? They're like, oh, it's kind of like Blue Moon, but it's a thousand times better tasting. And they're right. So now this is. I've always got my fridge stacked up with mango crop.

[Zach Lowe]

Beautiful.

[Tim Legler]

So I'm drinking that and watching the game. And so here's my thought process. The first thing, honestly, that my takeaway was in watching the game. The way that their shooters and role players stepped up in every big spot. Because it's like the Thunder, correct. The Thunder were like right there beneath the surface. Shai doing everything he could to keep him in it with shot making, you know, Cason Wallace playing out of his mind. But they couldn't crack that code. And the reason they couldn't was because guys like Keldon Johnson and Dylan Harper and de' Aaron Fox and Champagne made every shot they had to make with all of that pressure, like on the road with a trip to the finals at stake. Because Wemby was obviously himself, but it wasn't like he went crazy in that game. They don't get through that if those guys aren't making those shots. And so that was the first thing. And then obviously the chat thing, just this most head scratching sitting there trying to figure it out. I've seen guys kind of shrink in those situations before, but to for a guy that's third team all league to score with 10:40 left in the first quarter and took one shot the rest of the game. I don't know that I've ever seen anything quite like that for a guy that's like on that level in the league currently.

[Zach Lowe]

It was to your point about the spurs role players. The thing that I, I Wonder if in 15 years we'll remember that on two separate occasions the Thunder actually took the lead in the game because they one was. They were up by four, I think 6359 one was right before halftime. And normally when that happens, you feel like, all right, the home team got over the hump, they Got punched right out of the gate like they did every game. They took the lead. And we won't remember it because the spurs erased it both times immediately. Like just immediate runs. It was so impressive.

[Tim Legler]

You're right. A lot of times that's when it goes from 4 to 10.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah. Just like they take control now.

[Tim Legler]

It feels a little overwhelming for the road team, especially this young group. And they never let it get to that point.

[Zach Lowe]

All right, Spurs Nicks, game one tomorrow. You're going to be on the call.

[Robert Horry]

Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

Wemby will win the tip. So the spurs will have the ball. First thing you're going to be looking for spurs offense versus Knicks defense. Is it going to be who's guarding Wembanyama? Is it Cat? Is it Anobi? And what would you do if you were in Mike Brown's shoes?

[Tim Legler]

Anunoby? As much as you possibly can. And I think try to prevent handing them off as much as you can. Anunoby's the guy for me. That's the physical profile type player you want on him. Laterally strong, but enough height to at least kind of like bother him a little bit. You know, when you're as you're contesting a little bit. But then the strength to push him out on the floor when he goes to set screens, I think that's a critical component to the series. I'll be looking at that immediately in the first quarter. Where is he setting them when he sets screens and both feet are inside the three point line and he's one

[Zach Lowe]

stride to the rim, literally one.

[Tim Legler]

It's a completely different level of pressure on the defense and the points per possession show it. It's different than when he sets that screen at 30ft. Anunoby's going to play a big part in that. So is the pressure on the ball because those guards have to start a little further out for that screen to come further out. So that's for me. You asked right away. Spurs offense, Knicks defense. That's kind of the first thing. Like how are the spurs utilizing Wemby in this matchup and where is he setting his screens to maximize his pressure on the defense?

[Zach Lowe]

All right, put your coach hat on. If Anunoby's on Wembanyama and whether he starts on him or not, we're going to see it a lot. Who's Cat guarding

[Tim Legler]

that? Probably that's a tough one because they've got shooters. You might.

[Zach Lowe]

This is where the Harrison Barnes swap out.

[Tim Legler]

Right? When they got Harrison Barnes out of the lineup it changed everything because everybody Else can either shoot it or put it on the deck. So that's a tough. That's a tough one for Karl Anthony Towns.

[Zach Lowe]

I don't know who it's gonna be. It could be champagne. That feels a little like Chet guarded champagne. But he moves around a lot.

[Tim Legler]

You gotta get back to him because he can. That guy, probably more than anybody they have, is capable of taking over a half, four, five, made threes in a short period of time if you're not getting back to him. So that's a tough one. He obviously can't go on Castle. Even though you could kind of lay off him and dare him to shoot. He's getting downhill anyway if you're backed off of him. So it's not going to be him. And plus he's in too many ball screens, so it certainly can't be him. Dear Fox. It's not going to be him.

[Zach Lowe]

It's tough. It's going to be tough. I think we'll see a little bit of everything. All right, so then the Knicks get the ball. They're on offense. First possession they have when the spurs are able to set their defense. Are you expecting right off the jump Wembanyama and Josh Hart roaming around, playing a one man zone? And how do you expect the Knicks to respond to that?

[Tim Legler]

Yeah, I think so. Look, and Josh Hart knows, like, and he obviously was dared to shoot in the last series and really made Cavs pay. But I mean, it was so absurd, like the extent to which they didn't even try to get to him. He was taking shots that I wouldn't even qualify as practice shots. He could have slippers on. He had that much time to shoot the basketball. That's not going to be the case here because they still have just a really good closeout team. So they're going to, they're going to concede it, but they're also going to try to get there. And if it's Wemby, you know, it could be one step from the block and he's going to get in the air. And that's a much different shot for Josh Hart. He knows he's got to step up, be ready to shoot the ball. He's going to set a lot of ball screens and then he can set it and slip out as Brunson comes off. And now maybe you've engaged Wemby in that ball screen. You're taking him with you. If that ball can get out of there and get reversed, you've now got Wemby lifted. You've got him further away from the action. You've got to now go win those two on ones and three on twos on the backside of that. And I think you're going to see Josh Hart doing a lot of that.

[Zach Lowe]

See, it's interesting that you bring that up because Hart set in March when the Knicks blew out the spurs in Madison Square Garden. Hart set the most ball screens he's ever set in any game ever in his entire NBA career. It was because of that. It was their way of saying, hey, Wemby, if you're going to guard Hart, but lay off of him. We're just going to bring Hart into the screening action and a shooter's going to come around the corner, you're not going to be there, whatever. And I feel like the spurs have gotten more and more and more daring with Wemby in that zone of like, okay, if you try to bring Josh Hart into the action, he's just going to wave goodbye to Josh Hart and stay parked down on the baseline and be like, oh, this Mikhail Bridges over here. I'll be cool. And I just don't know, like he's the first guy that I've ever seen where he's dictating the terms to the offense. They're trying to get him in the action and the action, he's just like, no, I'm cool. I can cover any amount of. I don't know what you're supposed to do.

[Tim Legler]

It's tough because the other thing is, you know, you look at into Knicks in this historic run they've been on and look at the areas they're dominating. Number one amongst all playoff teams with points in the paint, 53 a game, number one at three point percentage, 40%, number one at fast break points. Well, I look at the fast break points and the paint points particularly, that's tough.

[Zach Lowe]

San Antonio's transition.

[Tim Legler]

How are you getting to 53 points in the paint and how are you getting to 18 in fast pace break opportunities now, dispersal, cough it up. But they recover as well as any team in the league and cutting that off. So that's like in some ways like you're taking a chunk of the offense out in both of those areas. So where do you make that up? I think the three point volume goes up for the Knicks and if they don't shoot, they don't have to shoot 40% like they are now in the postseason. If that number drops to 29%, 21% when the volume goes up as well, you don't have a chance. I think the Volume goes up because it has to go up because of the way the spurs play defensively. Number one, they're just their initial defenders. Their outer shell is so good at keeping the ball in front. And then of course you've got Wemby back there and the way the Knicks are running new offense, a lot of off ball movement and Brunson on the baseline, setting that screen and coming up to get the ball from Cat and all that. They're getting some of those cuts and slashes now. A lot of those are taken away against this team. That to me points directly to the three point shooting. And that means Hart, Anunoby, Brunson when he gets into his step back and Kat, Kat's going to have I think to shoot the ball more in this series than he did in the last series. And they've got to shoot a respectable percentage from the three point line to have a chance because I think that's the shot they know they can get.

[Zach Lowe]

Give me a small, before we let you go, give me a small X factor for both teams that you're going to be looking for. It could be a guy off the bench, it could be a tactical wrinkle. Just as any small thing that comes to mind that's like this could actually be a little game within the game that swings part of the series.

[Tim Legler]

I'm going to put one of them, I'm going to put it on Mitchell Robinson. Okay, so now he's got, he's got the pinky injury. Obviously it's not going to affect the shooting, his ball handling, we have to worry about that. But you know, is he in pain? Does it affect his ability to grab the ball with two hands? Can he catch a lob? So we don't know that until he starts playing. You're talking about against this team. If you don't get your share of second chance opportunities, you're going to have a hard time. If you only get one shot per possession he gives you, I mean we've seen it. He's flipped games in an eight minute

[Zach Lowe]

stretch because he's looting against this team.

[Tim Legler]

I think he had like 10 against this team. He can do that, he can do that. And that's going to supplement their offense, give them extra possessions against an elite defense. And not only that, like just his presence in the paint against an attacking team, against Wemby size, against Castle Harper, all these guys. So I think Mitchell Robinson for me, for the Knicks, major X factor. And then I think for the Spurs, I'm going to go with Dylan Harper. I just think he clearly is not phased by any of this stuff. And he's got the physical makeup to play through any physicality. The shooting can be a little bit streaky. To what if. To what impact does he have in this series as a scorer? If he's a little bit more limited or he struggles a little bit, that's going to be a big bonus for the Knicks. Because if he's also coming off the bench and giving you those games, 12, 15, 18 points, if he has nights like that, it's tough to beat this team.

[Zach Lowe]

So a couple of just riffing off that I looked at before the Thunder series, Thunder, spurs, when it looked like the Thunder were going to be fully healthy with J.B. dub and A.J. mitchell and all that, like, man, this is the most powerful offensive team the spurs have faced. And I was wondering, like. And I was going to mention this in my preview and forgot. Are we going to see more minutes of Harper, Cassel, Wembanyama and no Fox? Not like they're going to bench Fox, but like Fox maybe goes down to 20, 28 minutes because they just need their A plus defensive lineup out. And if you look at the numbers, when those three guys are on the floor together, Harper, Cassowa, Minyama, it's like you can't even score on the Spurs. And Robinson, I said this on my preview pod last night. I think it's barely hyperbole and maybe not hyperbole at all to say his health could swing the entire NBA Finals. I think he's that important specifically against this team because the more I've watched Wembanyama and the spurs and the more I've talked to people who are trying to build their teams with him in mind. I think a player like Mitchell, Robinson, as close as you can get, is like a must to have against Wembanyama like you. You got to at least make him think, if I go up to block this shot and I don't get it, is there someone behind me who can punish me and like. And also. Or catch lobs behind me and like, you're not going to get all of that in one player all the time. But you get that, like, Mitchell Robinson is the perfect kind of guy for that.

[Tim Legler]

And the other thing. Those are all great points. Why he's so important. The other thing is he eats up fouls, meaning he protects Kat. Okay. Because you can. What are you going to. Are they going to go with, you know, let's say, would they go with Huck Porty? I don't think they would Trust him in this situation, you could play an anobi at the five.

[Zach Lowe]

I think that's. I think that's what they go to,

[Tim Legler]

but they probably will if that's what they have to. That's why those 15 minutes, whatever it's going to be for Mitchell Robinson, are so important because he's absorbing minutes that Karl Anthony Towns could be on the bench and not picking up fouls because we know he's prone to that. So that all those reasons you mentioned, I just look at him and it's going to be fascinating to see when he checks in what his impact and effectiveness is. And, and if he looks pretty good in game one, I think we probably can expect that the entire series. And that's a totally different look for the Knicks.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, I picked Knicks in seven. Either way, obviously, I want a long series. Just from entertainment perspective. I do think it's a weird thing. I do think the Knicks need to get one of the first two in San Antonio. Even though you say, well, they have home court going back the other way, it all evens out. I just think it's so hard to win four out of five even if you have home court after the first two games. I think everyone's going to say they got to get game one. I don't care which it is, but I do think if they go down 2 0, it's going to be really tough for them.

[Tim Legler]

You have two teams that right now are at peak level on both ends of the floor. So the number of things that have to go right to win a game against either of these teams is a lot of things. If you go down 2 0, I agree with you. Then it just becomes math. 4 out of 5, including the last one on the road, if that's what it takes against the team that's at peak level, that's hard, man. They're deep, they're great defensively. They can be great offensively. So that's difficult. I agree. And I don't necessarily people like, oh, game one's, Game one's everything. I'm like, I don't agree with that. Split.

[Zach Lowe]

Split.

[Tim Legler]

Split is like get one of these two. I mean, it's already nuts and bananas in Madison Square Garden. Like the games we've called and we called games in the last two series, you know, Philly and in Clans, Cleveland one one.

[Zach Lowe]

Oh, it's going to be in the Garden next Monday.

[Tim Legler]

That. Can you imagine? Like, and then. And now that fan base really sensing it. Maybe this is it, man. This is the year we got the split we wanted so split, I think very important to the Knicks. I think we got a long series. I think we got great finishes in this series. And as a guy calling it, I hope so because we didn't get much of that in the Easter Conference finals.

[Zach Lowe]

No, we did not.

[Tim Legler]

We didn't get much of that.

[Zach Lowe]

Game one. We got game one.

[Tim Legler]

That's an epic one.

[Zach Lowe]

That was an epic one.

[Tim Legler]

But not much in the Cleveland. I'm not much in the Philly series. Not much in the Atlanta series. Right. Because we got involved in that when it was like it was 60 point lead was the game we called. So we haven't had a lot of those compelling three minutes to go coming out of that timeout, anybody can win this game moments. And I think we're going to get several of them in this series.

[Zach Lowe]

Tim Legler, you're the best. Listen to him on the All City Podcast with Adam Morris and on the Call with Mike Reen and some nonsense spouting host. That's one low below me, Richard something. I don't know what his name is.

[Tim Legler]

Something shiny down there. Is that the trophy or Richard?

[Zach Lowe]

I think it's a trophy. I don't know. No one brought the trophy to me. I don't think that's fair. I think every host should get a piece of the trophy.

[Tim Legler]

I'll take it right off their set legs.

[Zach Lowe]

Thanks, man. I'll see.

[Tim Legler]

Of course. You got it

[Zach Lowe]

aro. Look who it is. Seven times. You got to hold this thing or a version of this thing right there.

[Robert Horry]

94.95 Houston Rockets. My favorite championship.

[Zach Lowe]

That's the favorite one.

[Robert Horry]

Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

Why is that the favorite one? Robert Ory, by the way, is if he needed any introduction, why is that your favorite one?

[Robert Horry]

Because this is a journey, man. You think about who we beat on that run, you know, Carl Malone, John Stockton, then the next round, Charles Barkley, Kevin Johnson, the next round right here. He gets the mvp. David Robinson, Dennis Rodman and that crew. And then we go on to sweep Shack and Penny. So that was a fun championship.

[Zach Lowe]

So 95. I was a senior in high school. Die Hard made me feel old. Die Hard. NBA fan, though. And a couple of guys, we would just watch every game and we were like almost vicariously embarrassed for David Robinson because of what Hakeem did to him in that series. Were you all, did you all feel like you were part of that with him? Like we're gonna, we're all gonna show together who the real MVP of the league is.

[Robert Horry]

Yes, it was a fun series. Man. Because back then, spurs had beat us five times in the regular season. You know, you play our opponents five times in the conference, and so they pretty much owned us. And it's almost like once they gave David the MVP trophy, Dream was locked in and he was doing stuff we hadn't seen all season.

[Zach Lowe]

It was mean, man. It got to a point where you're

[Gary Payton]

on the court going, ooh.

[Robert Horry]

You know, and you're supposed to do

[Tim Legler]

that as a player.

[Robert Horry]

You both get, oh, I see this all the time.

[Zach Lowe]

We're like, oh, kill him, Dream. Kill him, Dream.

[Robert Horry]

So it was just a wonderful thing to watch. And also in 95, that's when, you know, I kind of got my nickname.

[Zach Lowe]

That was Big. That's the birth of big shot Bob. Is it Bob or Rob? Where are we going?

[Robert Horry]

It started out as Bob. I like Bob because, you know, after my father. But my mom, there's a story behind that. And she just didn't like them calling me Bob, cause of my dad. And she changed it to Rob. So somewhere down the line, it got changed to Rob because they heard the story.

[Zach Lowe]

I mean, moms generally should get the final call. I feel like that's the reason I

[Robert Horry]

went to Alabama, not Georgia Tech, because my mom, like, you're going to Alabama, so Mom's the best.

[Zach Lowe]

So the Knicks are back in the finals. Obviously, the last time they were there was 1999, but the one before that, the one they really had a chance in, you were there for the Houston Rockets in 1994. All time epic series, seven games, comes down to the wire in game six and game seven, the whole thing. Do you remember a lot of people with the Knicks have told the story about the O.J. game. What do you remember about the O.J. the O.J. game is game five, I believe.

[Robert Horry]

No, it was like game three, I think.

[Zach Lowe]

Game.

[Gary Payton]

I don't know.

[Zach Lowe]

Whatever it is.

[Robert Horry]

Yeah, one or three or four. Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

But do you. Were you also made aware at some point during the game something is happening in the world?

[Robert Horry]

No, we were playing and then, you know, back then you just had a vcr and you, you. That's how you recorded the games, vcr. So when we came back into the locker room at halftime, we, you know, we usually watched the game. We're like, what the heck is this going on? Like, and someone said, oh, it's O.J. he's.

[Zach Lowe]

Halftime.

[Robert Horry]

This is halftime. Halftime, yeah. And it was. So we didn't. We didn't have to. We couldn't even watch any film the next day because it was all OJ and it was just. That's the only time we didn't pay attention because we were locked in with. We know we didn't care about O.J. we wanted to try to get our first championship as a team.

[Zach Lowe]

So I rewatched. End of game six, Knicks down by two. Starks takes the last second three that Hakeem just barely gets a piece of. And I rewatched. I was like, let me see where Robert is on display. You're guarding Charles Oakley, who's the inbounds passer. But can you close your eyes and see that? And was there a moment where you were like, oh, God, this is. This is. If this goes in, it's actually over?

[Robert Horry]

Yeah, I did. I was watching that and I was like, dream's not going to get there. And then he'd go, go Gadget Arms and got there. And you think about how hot Stark was that game. So if Dream doesn't block that, I think Stark makes that because he was shooting that. He was shooting it really good that game. And I remember I was on the guard and I was like, no, he came open and thank you, Dream. So that's all I had to say. Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

Also on that team, Mario Elli. A couple of famous incidents involving Mario Ellie are part of your career. That's the. You beat the Suns in that playoff run. And that's the game. That's a series where Danny Ainge, frustrated at the end of one of the games, pegs Mario Elliott in the head, close range. No, I mean, I watched it again to remind myself, like, damn, that would have taken me out.

[Robert Horry]

Yeah. And you gotta think about. People forget Danny Ainge was better at baseball.

[Zach Lowe]

Yes.

[Robert Horry]

And so he was a pitcher. And so he. To do that. It infuriated us. We were pissed by that. Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

Now, flash forward three years. You're a member of the Phoenix Suns and Danny Ainge is one of the coaches. And what happened?

[Robert Horry]

You want that story? It started like we were playing this. We was playing this. Where he and I really started butting heads, was we was playing the Bulls. And I think the Bulls beat us by like 20, 30 points. And I was saying that, yo, we went to practice and he was like, well, our offense is this. Our offense is that. I was like, our defense sucks, man. And Danny had the nerve to stand up like, you're the worst defensive player on the team. I'm like, hold on. There's Wesley Person, there's Danny Manning, and you call me the worst defensive player on the team. There's something Wrong with you. And from that moment on, we hate each other even more.

[Zach Lowe]

Has it thawed?

[Robert Horry]

Has what?

[Zach Lowe]

Has it thawed? Have you got anything?

[Robert Horry]

No, I'm saying as what? No, I mean, I'm joking. No, no, it has not. You know, the funny thing about it is when he traded me, he says, I probably just won you another championship when he traded me. So he traded me to the Lakers. But I have no ill will, you know, I really, really, if I could go back in time, I would handle that situation way better. You know, because I was at a time my daughter was sick in the hospital. I had just came from, you know, a team where the coach was work hard in practice to a team where they was like on a country, you know, country club atmosphere. So it was just a lot of things going on with me mentally and physically that it was just a frustrating time. And am I going to apologize for it? Nope. Because it's Danny. Ains anybody else, I would apologize.

[Zach Lowe]

So on the 93, 94 rockets, just trivia purposes, Chris Gent, now an assistant coach with the Knicks. And on the 1997 Suns because he got traded from the Rockets to the Suns with you, Mark Bryant, who was going to stand up for you in the locker room if there was ever like Joe Klein wanted to fight you in the dance after you threw the towel at Danny H. Also an assistant coach with the Knicks. There's like a lot of Knicks Robert Hori connections going on here.

[Robert Horry]

Yes. You know, and we swept the head coach for the Knicks and we always went to Spurs. There's a lot of connections going on. But I think Mark Bryant's my guy. You know, he was, he's been my guy since he got there. And you know, I kind of got mad at Chris Jennings. I love him to death. I got mad. Meaning sarcastically. We got the championship video and he's all up in the video more than me.

[Zach Lowe]

He's.

[Robert Horry]

I've only been here three weeks.

[Zach Lowe]

I've already NBA championship, baby. I'm like, why is he in the video and not me?

[Robert Horry]

But Chris Jent was like, he. I loved him. I really was admired him when he was at Ohio State, the way he played defense. And so I'm a big Chris Gent fan.

[Zach Lowe]

All right. So you mentioned you get traded to the Lakers and then you three peat. When in that three year run, you're at four years total with the Lakers. I feel like. Right.

[Robert Horry]

My career, seven years. Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

With the. Okay. When in that run. The heart of it though, the championships and the near championships. When do you start worrying about, like, this Shaq, Kobe thing. Doesn't. Doesn't seem like it's going. Like, it doesn't seem like they're getting along very well.

[Robert Horry]

Well, you know, for me, it. If you go back and look at the people you have on your team, you keep players at bay. You think about B. Shaw, Hart, myself, you know, Rick Fox, Fish and John Sally. We. It was no rift during. In the locker room. There was no rift in practice. You know, in the summertime, guys getting fights, you know, I'm sure you heard about guys fighting in practice. It was no rift. And then all of a sudden, you know, we're gone. The guys who were like the glue of the team are gone. And then that's when it really, you know, exploded. And you think about, you know, all the stuff that happened with Kobe, all this stuff happened with Shaq. And then next day and they make it to the finals, they get beat up by pistons. And so it goes to show you that guys that are in your locker room are so important if they're not the stars, because they are the voice. Everybody thinks it's the coaches. The coaches aren't the voice. It's those veteran players who know how to hold guys together, hold them accountable. And I think that was the key because we were always talking to Shaq. Shaq and I shot free throws. Every, after every practice, I had a voice. We could talk to him like, man, it's not about you. And Kobe is about us. And so with those voices gone, you see what happens?

[Zach Lowe]

So you signed with San Antonio after that as a free agent. But were you. Were you like, did you want to go back to the Lakers? Were you mad that the Lakers weren't bringing you back or.

[Robert Horry]

I was actually mad, yeah. I was actually mad. I didn't talk to Jerry Buss for like five years. And I thought, what? The way they handle it was unfair to me. For a person, anytime you wanted someone to do something, it was me coming out. You know, okay, I do this, I do this. And then all of a sudden I say, okay, I know you want Karl Malone so bad that y' all not gonna bring me back. Allow me to go early, let me go early so I can find a home. And they didn't do that. And so luckily someone fell out of the rotation for the Spurs. I signed. People don't know. I signed a one year deal with the Spurs.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, I looked it up today, and

[Robert Horry]

I didn't have a good year because people don't understand when you play for Pop, he Has a million plays. So it takes you a little bit to understand the system. Then the next year, I signed another one year there for League Mental. We won it in 2005, and then he signed me for. For three years. And, you know. And after 2005, Mark Cuban offered me way more money to come play for the Mavericks. But I said, no, I like it here in San Antonio. And plus, I can get on this freeway and go see my daughter, who's in and out of the hospital when I need to be. So it was about, you know, being comfortable for me and enjoying the team. And I really enjoyed playing for Pop because I like the culture, I like the structure. I like how you go to practice. You practice hard. It was no country club stuff. A lot of these teams don't practice hard. Hard to practice at all nowadays. But I really enjoy the environment here.

[Zach Lowe]

So, Big shot Bob, if I say that to people, they're going to think of the Lakers king shot, the one that Vlade tips right back out to you, and you make it. I don't think enough love gets placed on two. Two finals, Detroit, San Antonio. You're down by two on the road. Like, the whole finals is in the balance. You're inbounding the ball. Five seconds left or something like that. No, 10 seconds left. Then you make the shot with five seconds left. You're inbounding the ball. Rasheed Wallace is on you, but he decides, I'm not guarding the inbounder. So you inbound it. Manu passes it right back to you, and you make a three to put the spurs ahead by one. Were you like, holy shit, he's not guarding me. Get the ball right back to me. Like, did you make eye contact with Manu, or were you surprised that she was making that decision?

[Robert Horry]

I was shocked because when I threw the ball, it was like, one thing about people laughing. They talk about how much I hate bounce passes. I hate them because they're slow. But that's the only thing I could get to Manu because the play was from Manu. And so Rasheed's kind of like, okay, I'll go trap. And I was like, no, he didn't just leave me open. Because to me, back to your point. Like, nobody talks about that. And what I did in the second half of that game and the shots

[Zach Lowe]

I made, we're going to get to that in a second.

[Robert Horry]

And so. But it was just for me, I just felt, like, incredible that I was like, okay, you leaving me. And I've never been this hot in my life. You know, so he was.

[Zach Lowe]

Did you think it was going in?

[Robert Horry]

Oh, it was going in.

[Zach Lowe]

Because on the. When I watched it today, it looks long when it's in the air, it looks like it might be long and then it hits back rim and in. So you knew, you're like, it felt

[Robert Horry]

good, it felt great. And that's the thing about me. I've always known if my shots are going to go in, maybe like one out of maybe like 20. I might not know if. Oh, it's going in. It doesn't go in. But when my shot is on, I know if it's in or not.

[Zach Lowe]

What I had forgotten in that game was right before that. This is like one of the greatest forgotten dunks in the history of the NBA. They kick it to you on the right wing. I can't remember what score is.

[Robert Horry]

It's going through a bad pass, whatever.

[Zach Lowe]

They kick it to you on the right wing. Sheed is not guarding you. He's rotated and you have a clear lane to the basket. And you go and like people, I think people think you're a big shot guy, great all around player, defense, rebounding, passing, all that high flying. I mean, you could dunk. You were a dunker coming out of Alabama. But this is like an in game masterpiece. You drive in and throw this lefty, like lefty arm extended over Richard Hamilton, who tries to draw a charge on you and won. And you missed a free throw, which we don't. Your shoulder was hurting, Your shoulder was hurt.

[Robert Horry]

I was in so much pain.

[Zach Lowe]

You missed it short. But that dunk, is it one of those moments where you go up, like, I guess I gotta try to dunk this. Or in midair you're like, holy. I might dunk this. It's an, it's an amazing dunk.

[Robert Horry]

It's a holy moment because you try that dunk and you know, all the time. And it's a lot easier when you like fresh and you can get up and like this was like fourth quarter, you know, and I'm like tired and been playing minutes, playing against a tough, you know, Detroit Pistons. So when I took off, I was like, of course I think I can. Oh, I'm about. Oh, I think. But if you look, I barely got it over. It wasn't one of those. It was just so it was a pretty good dunk. It was a pretty good dunk. And you know, and the thing about Rip Rip always, we've been to a lot of events together. He always says, man, you're the only guy who's ever dunked on me in the NBA. I said, yeah, you should have moved out the way.

[Zach Lowe]

All right, seven time champion. There's a, there's a whole groundswell of like, we got to get Robert Hori in the hall of Fame, make him the first quote unquote role player in the modern NBA to get in the hall of Fame. Is that something you want? Have you been, have you advocated for that? Do you feel like you deserve it?

[Robert Horry]

I've never been a self promoter. I just feel like I just go out and do my thing and I let people, you know, do what they need to do. And for me, do I feel like I should be in the hall of Fame? I said yes, because what are you going to say?

[Zach Lowe]

No, no.

[Robert Horry]

You know, trust me, I'm very honest. And you think about, people look at hall of fame, they look at NBA, it's not NBA hall of fame, it's a basketball hall of fame. It's what I did in high school schools, what I did in college. It's everything that you've done. And people don't understand, like, in order to be as successful as I was, you don't understand how much I had to sacrifice in order to be successful. You know, you look at my first couple of years in NBA, I had plays run when I was scoring, I was doing this. I should have made all defensive team, but I didn't.

[Zach Lowe]

You and Cassell coming in together in the same draft class was like, whoa, these rookies are ready to play.

[Robert Horry]

And that's the whole thing that, that's the one thing I regret, that I never made all defensive team. You think about it, first player ever to do 100 blocks, 100 steals, 100 threes in a game. It's crazy, you know, and, and it's so many accomplishments that I've done and nobody's ever done, you know, so many records I have and. But it gets kind of squashed because I think they look at who I played with. Dream and Clyde, Shaq and Kobe, Tim, Manu and Tony, they always say, ah, he rolled their coattails. I said, if it weren't for me, it'd probably be like five championships that some of those guys wouldn't have won.

[Zach Lowe]

I forgot about this. We are in San Antonio. Have you and Steve Nash ever talked about the hip check Steve Nash from 2007?

[Gary Payton]

People don't understand.

[Robert Horry]

Steve Nash was my boy. Steve Nash was my rookie. When I was in Phoenix, he and I used to hang together all the time. And you know, we have people.

[Zach Lowe]

If you don't know what I'm talking about.

[Gary Payton]

Just Google.

[Zach Lowe]

Just do Robert Horry hip check. It'll come up. 2007, Western Conference finals. Two great, great teams. Two. Two people got off the bench and were suspended. But have you talked to him about this?

[Robert Horry]

We talk about it all the time. I told him, I said, man, you flopped on that. He's like, because if you look. You know, my arm never went out. I was watching the.

[Zach Lowe]

That's why it's called a hip check.

[Robert Horry]

But. But no, here's the thing, is it shouldn't. I shouldn't have been suspended for two games. Every time I see the. The guy at the time of suspend, I want to push him down and fly the stairs because that cost me $60,000. And so I'm like, but no, it just should have been a hard fly. You know, we forget. Since he's a little guy, he's an mvp, they want to suspend me.

[Zach Lowe]

He's got the bandage on his nose already.

[Robert Horry]

It wasn't for me, everybody.

[Zach Lowe]

No, no, no, it wasn't for me. He's already got it on.

[Robert Horry]

That was from Tony Parker.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, but I. Right after the game, they interview you. I don't know, maybe it was short. I don't remember what it was. But you give an interview with, you just say, like, hey, I was trying to draw a charge and I got there late. Like, that's a good explanation. I gotta say. That's a good alibi.

[Robert Horry]

I was trying to get over there, and I was like, I'm not gonna make it. Like I said, I'm a realistic. So I said, okay, one of us got to take this punishment. So I was like. But I tell him, I am a wall. Steve Nash was a tennis ball. Of course he's going to bounce off a wall. So it just looked better than what it was.

[Zach Lowe]

All right, last question. Because you got to keep making the rounds.

[Robert Horry]

You might stop. I'm going home after this.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay, well, that's great.

[Robert Horry]

I'm going home after this.

[Zach Lowe]

I heard you down there on the road tripping show with those guys. I heard a prediction come. I couldn't hear what it was, but it was six. I heard somebody in six. So what was it? Spurs and six, I think.

[Robert Horry]

Spurs and six. I. I think if you look at the way the spurs play, they match up a really well with the Knicks, but the Knicks don't match up that great with the Spurs. And for me, I think when you watch a lot of these series, Brunson is a liability on the defensive end. There's no liability on the defensive end for the Spurs.

[Zach Lowe]

Think about who Champagne is closest thing is Fox probably. And if he especially if the ankle sprain is bothering him. I think Brunson will go at Fox a little bit in his yeah, but

[Robert Horry]

those guys aren't the most important player. But I think overall Towns and how he defends Wemby depending on if Mitchell plays. But I think that's the most important thing. But I still think the spurs in six Scary, man.

[Zach Lowe]

If Wemby is winning titles this soon in his career, it's a little scary.

[Robert Horry]

Yeah, it's scary. But you know what though? Just like they were mad at okc, you never know if OKC is going to come back next year. Mad at the deal.

[Zach Lowe]

OKC is going to come back mad.

[Robert Horry]

All right.

[Zach Lowe]

Robert Horry, Truly a pleasure. And like, seriously, I say this at the end, one of my favorite players ever to watch because I always gravitated to the guys who did the subtle things and lifted everyone around them. And you were like the archetype of that guy. Not just 3 and D. It was 3 and D and a little bit of everything. Good passer, good everything. It's great to have you, man. Robert Orr, everybody. Thank you sir. Oh, and Larry o', Brien, nice to see you.

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[Zach Lowe]

we're going to talk about the actual NBA Finals. Ian Begley from SNY, home of the 26 and 34 New York Mets Baby not in last we might be in last again. We got out of last briefly. Ian, nice to see you.

[Ian Begley]

Always nice to see you, Zach. It's good to do this in person.

[Zach Lowe]

It's Nice, right?

[Ian Begley]

Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

Never has, maybe not. Never Seldom has so much attention and scrutiny been paid to how a player shakes hands. High fives, shoots, free throws. What's he wearing on his hand is Mitchell Robinson. Today the Knicks were coy about his status for Game one. No one has really reported how he hurt his pinky finger slash, fifth metacarpal. Whatever we're talking about, what do we expect for Game one? Looks like he's going to play. He did. He looked like he was doing most everything.

[Gary Payton]

Yeah.

[Ian Begley]

He didn't seem limited. I think he's going to play. He wants to play. The Knicks are hopeful that he can play. I don't know if he's been fully cleared by the Knick Medical center staff. That's the last hurdle because he was doing individual stuff in practices prior to this one and Mike Brown had said he hadn't been cleared for the whole thing yet, so we wait on that. But I'm assuming he's going to play. Obviously he'll be limited though, right? People kind of try to downplay the significance of this injury, but he's got a rebound, the basketball. You need to grab it with both hands. He's got to finish alley oops. And also when he's on the floor, Victor Wembanyama I think is be to going. Going to be defending him. So his role in this series is a significant one.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, it's going to be really interesting. I think they need him to be 80% product, productivity wise and whatever. Like no one knows what his pain tolerance is going to be, but I think they need him to have a good series in order to win. And I saw Sean's reported today that I don't know if you've reported this, forgive me if you have, that it was something at his house with like an injury occurred at his home. I will say there doesn't seem to be a lot of like anger or consternation from the Knicks. People like it. Like there was initial. People went through to the worst possible. Like, did he punch a wall? Was it something stupid? They don't seem to be acting like it was something like that.

[Ian Begley]

I mean, it's a boxer's fracture.

[Zach Lowe]

Yes.

[Ian Begley]

So, I mean, take that what you will, but yeah, it was not in a game, it was not in practice. Mike Brown said that publicly, which surprised me. And I think when this happens, everyone's kind of caught off guard. I think in that locker room there was kind of some people just not confused, but concerned and just wondering, why now?

[Zach Lowe]

Why now? But maybe after definitely why Now?

[Ian Begley]

Yeah, after you hear the story, maybe there's an explanation there. I mean, there's a million rumors kind of floating around about what happened, what didn't happen. I, I can't report anything on that. But yeah, did not happen on the.

[Zach Lowe]

What is your life like right now? Is it like. You and I are both friends with a lot of Knicks fans. We live amongst a lot of Knicks fans. But you cover the Knicks. Is your life just a non stop parade of everyone that you know asking you, are they going to win? Are they going to do this? Can you get me tickets? Like what are, what are some of the questions you're getting?

[Ian Begley]

All the above. Yes, all the above. And the. I love all my friends. But the worst part is like when there's a big news event and I'm scrambling trying to figure out whatever's going on and I'm getting texts from like a guy I haven't talked to in three years and he wants like the lowdown on what's happening. I'm like, man, I last saw you at my wedding, like, what. What's happening here? Why are you reaching out to me? But no, it's all, I mean, this is an exciting time for obviously the franchise, anybody covering the team. It's a good group. So what can I really complain about at the end of the day?

[Zach Lowe]

So I'm going to put you on the spot a little bit.

[Robert Horry]

Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

And it's nothing bad, but you think about the roads not taken for this group in the last four or five years. And I remember I had you on my podcast when I was at espn, we were both. You were not at, I don't know, we were both at ESPN at some point. But when the Donovan Mitchell non trade happened.

[Robert Horry]

Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

There was this. You were at the forefront of reporting what was offered, what was offered when. And it was like this, would they put a third pick in? But they'd only put a third pick in if RJ Barrett was, was not in the deal. And it was like mutations. Yeah. And I looked back at your reporting and some other reporting, I'm like, man, what happened here? And like, did they really want Donovan Mitchell? And then they faced him in the last round. So when you think back to that, like how close were they really? And because if they do that trade, then they obviously don't have some of the assets. They then trade for bridges and other things don't happen. What do you remember from that? Because they faced off and I felt like that didn't get enough kind of attention as a storyline.

[Ian Begley]

Right. And I just remember even people around Mitchell in the weeks leading up to it saying, this is going to get done. I mean, think it's going to get done. It should get done. We expect it to get done. And I think Donovan Mitchell's gone on the record saying he thought he was going to be a Knick. So I don't know if it was for lack of interest, but it was Leon Rose at the end of the day, because it's his decision deciding, I'm not going to pay X for Donovan Mitchell. And, you know, you noted the OG Anunoby trade comes after that, and then obviously the Bridges trade and the Towns trade. And so there are so many things that did happen that may have never happened if he pulled the trigger. And it was RJ Barrett was a big part of it. Remember, they extended Barrett and that kind of ended any legitimate trade talks. And so, yeah, the cascade from there. And you could also talk about, look, maybe the picks are still there for them to go after Giannis last summer in a serious way. So. Roads not traveled. Leon Rose has made, by and large, the right decisions here. Even going back to the Josh Hart

[Zach Lowe]

trade, like, one of the most underrated, including by me. I would. I. I've always loved Josh Hart, but those kind of trades, they just. They become footnotes at the trade deadline because there's so much huge stuff that happens and you're like, first for Josh Hart seems fine, whatever. Like, just such a great trade.

[Ian Begley]

It's impacted the franchise. I would put him right under Jalen Brunson as far as reasons this thing has turned around the way it has. And you know him because you're around and you're a fan. You don't. You can't appreciate him by just looking at a boxer. You can't. You've got to watch every play and the intricacies of his game. And he calls himself a servant, which I think is a perfect descriptor, because he just wants to make the four guys on the floor with him better, make it easier for them.

[Zach Lowe]

I think that's important. It's not even just easier. I think people used to say this totally different player to me about Ricky Rubio of a guy who's just fun to play with. Like, forget that Josh Hart is selfless and plays hard and makes the extra pass and does the dirty work and stuff like that. It just looks like it'd be a lot of fun to play with him. He wants to play fast, he wants to pass. He's kind of adventurous, like in a Daring way that would be fun to play with and every team kind of needs a little bit of that. You mentioned Giannis and one of the things I've been wondering, like, obviously we haven't played the final Jet. We're sitting here before game one. It could be 4, 0, spurs and they win by 20 every game. I picked Knicks in seven. It could be a close series, whatever. There was this notion of James Dolan laid down the gauntlet, this team has to get to the finals or it's a disappointment and boy, if they don't, all these changes could take place. Has this team done enough that like those doors should pretty much be closed, like enough with the Giannis talk, enough with this stuff. Like, is this team going to look like this? Basically?

[Ian Begley]

I would think so. But you know the scenario that you mentioned, if you're non competitive in four games, I think those questions remain. But I think at this point Mike Brown is back. I think you can say that in a. Maybe not a Sharpie, maybe an erasable marker, but it's seems like he'll be back at this point.

[Zach Lowe]

I would hope so.

[Ian Begley]

Right. But, but, but, but to your point, like, if it doesn't go well at

[Zach Lowe]

all, I don't think that's going to. I would be very surprised if this is a non competitive series.

[Ian Begley]

So I think it's going to be a great series and I think, yeah, everybody will be back. No major changes. You got to figure out what to do with Mitchell Robinson, figure out what to do with a Miles McBride extension. But it should be the same cast back next season.

[Zach Lowe]

Could this have happened with Tibbs?

[Ian Begley]

I asked Nick people that, man, for the last few days, the one answer that I got, which I found interesting, was that they said they didn't think so. Only because the idea that these guys are very loose and Tibs right or wrong, like the further you went, the more intense he got and that kind of rubbed off on a room. And you, you saw them in practice. These guys are light right now. And so I don't want to disparage Tom Thibodore at all.

[Zach Lowe]

Did a great job.

[Ian Begley]

Great, great job.

[Zach Lowe]

If you want to win games.

[Ian Begley]

He's a great coach to hire, foundational piece. But you look at the big decision they made around this time last year, we all had questions about it and it's worked out in a way that they had hoped it would.

[Zach Lowe]

It absolutely has. And you mentioned them looking loose and stuff. Kat talked a little bit at media availability today about the aftermath of game three three in Atlanta and he made comments to the effect, I believe. I don't know if you were in the room when he was talking today about, you know, we all had to look ourselves in the mirror, not only about, like, how we're playing and what we need to do to sacrifice for the team, but, like, how many of us are going to be Knicks next year if we don't pull out of this? And then they haven't lost a game ever since then. So I wonder what you have observed or can tell me about, like, the. After that moment of we're down 21 to a team we should beat, is this, like, how do we turn this around? And, like, obviously something changed.

[Ian Begley]

Sure. And so part of it was, I think the coach's message was, you guys are letting your foot off the gas here. This is not the time to do that. There was the offensive change with Carl Towns. I think part of it, though, was a mentality shift, and Towns maybe was getting at that a little bit, I think. I Talked to Miles McBride in Philadelphia after they swept, and he said, after

[Zach Lowe]

Miles McBride hit, like, 19 3. Unconscious.

[Ian Begley]

Yes, yes. And so he said that, you know, we knew we were a good team, but we were kind of waiting for the opponent to give us the game, and that was the issue. And after that Game three, they talked, and it switched from that to, we know we're a good team. We have to go out and take the game. We can't just wait for somebody to make mistakes. And I think that's. Maybe it sounds like a cliche, but it is kind of what you've seen from them during this winning streak.

[Zach Lowe]

They've been fa. I think they've been favorites every round so far in the playoffs. Certainly I picked them every round. I think they've been favorites every round. Have they talked about or thought about being underdogs for the first time in the playoffs at all in their media recently?

[Ian Begley]

I. I haven't been in there when someone has been asked that question or answered it, but I think that regardless of. Of whatever the label is, is it starts with Jalen Brunson. Like, he's not going to concern himself with what I think. What you think, what Vegas thinks. These guys are locked in such a high level on the daily details of what they need to do on the floor. Even during these breaks, it just seems like the outside noise, it's all around them, but they're not hearing it. And that starts with Brunson.

[Zach Lowe]

You, like many others, have lived through a lot of tumultuous times in Nick Land. And as they have risen to this point this year, a lot of us have gone back. And just to put in perspective how far they fell and how far they have come, sort of highlighted some of the lowlights, I guess, of the last 20 years. We've talked earlier today about a couple of maybe the forgotten lowlights that you might want to highlight. I give you the floor.

[Gary Payton]

Sure.

[Ian Begley]

So, I mean, I will go. Derek Fisher, the fist fight with Matt Barnes, him missing a practice all the way across the country while he was

[Zach Lowe]

the head coach of the team, not a player.

[Ian Begley]

And then a later iteration of the head coach, Kurt Rambis, who did a solid job. And I think he believed that he was going to maybe get the job. And Phil Jackson went a different way. But I remember there was a day where the Daily News wrote a story about his Twitter account liking a note, safe for work tweet.

[Zach Lowe]

I had totally forgotten about this.

[Ian Begley]

It turned into a whole story. He was asked about it. The Knicks put out a statement saying, you know, we think Kurt got hacked, and we're actively working with Twitter on an investigation. It was the most absurd thing so that you could point to three, four, five of those. And it was really. There were the density of those ridiculous stories. You almost. You just smacked your forehead. But now, Leon Rose, here we are, several years into his presidency, There's a competence and that the clowns, the circus stuff, the buffoonery, it's not there anymore. And part of me wonders, Zach, and I'm curious to hear what you think. Leon Rose had a front row seat to this for, you know, 20 years as an agent. He always had a client in New York. He was always, you know, doing his job, which meant, you know, talking to the front office, trying to figure out what was going on. I just wonder if that experience, seeing all the lows and the crazy stuff, if that informed the way he goes about his job as team president.

[Zach Lowe]

How could it not, right? I mean, how could it not? And I'd complete. There are so many things that you just forget about happening, and that was one of them. Well, did you. Do you make predictions or no? I don't think you do. Right?

[Ian Begley]

I'll make a prediction. See, I can't say Nixon 7, because the way San Antonio played in Oklahoma City in a game seven, for them to have a game seven at home, I mean, I just think they would handle the Knicks. So I would go, Knicks in six.

[Zach Lowe]

Knicks in six. Wow. I'll tell you this. I already told my wife, if the Knicks win in Game 6, I don't think I'm coming home. Like, I don't think I'm gonna be able to make it home. I don't. I think you just need to plan family activities without me. Get the 48 hours. Yeah, I think it's going to be a long, long series. I picked Nixon 7. I think Robinson is a huge X factor, but I really think they can do it. They're underdogs, and they deserve to be underdogs. The spurs are that good, and they have the best player in the world, probably in the best player in the series. I think the Knicks have stumbled on. Not stumbled. I think they have found some magic and some alchemy that is real. And, like, I think they can actually do it. So we'll see.

[Ian Begley]

Ian Begley, Victor Weminyama. That's where.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah. And how. How. Who guards who and how that works and who breaks first. Ian Begley will be here to chronicle all of it for sny. And it's a pleasure seeing you, bud.

[Ian Begley]

Always a pleasure.

[Zach Lowe]

See you on the block.

[Ian Begley]

Absolutely.

[Zach Lowe]

Careful on the Twitter accounts. Careful on those Twitter streets. All right, last but definitely not least from podcast row, this year's winner of the Twyman Stokes Award for teammate of the year in the NBA, I think 18 year veteran.

[DeAndre Jordan]

18 years. Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

DeAndre Jordan. That is a long time.

[DeAndre Jordan]

Yeah, long time. Long time. A lot of. A lot of ice baths and stretches and second round chambers and all of that.

[Zach Lowe]

Second round pick. You fell out of the first round. College coach. I was rereading some stuff. He didn't. He didn't like, you know, didn't have the most ringing endorsement of you.

[DeAndre Jordan]

And here you are, which is great. Eighteen years ago, it turned out great. So I appreciate that. Thank you.

[Zach Lowe]

So you are at the finals. We are at the finals. And I went back and I had to, you know, like, I think of you, I think of Lob City and some of the other stuff and the kidnapping, which we'll get to in Dallas. But you then eventually sign with Dallas as a free agent, and rookie Jalen Brunson is on that team. So you're kind of attached to this series in a couple of different ways, but you're on that team for most of the season before you get traded to the Knicks. But did you get to know Jalen at all? And could you tell what was there?

[DeAndre Jordan]

Yeah, I mean, Jalen was always super talented. You know, he just was playing with and sometimes behind Lucas, you know, and that's. That's. That's all it was. And Jadis Obviously was a great college player. He's a great pro. He's an All Star. And I just think sometimes there's just situations that can help blossom a player, and he's walked into a great one in New York.

[Zach Lowe]

Then you get traded from Dallas to the Knicks as part of the Porzingis trade, which is like a. I lived in New York at the time. That was like an explosive moment in New York. People were, like, really mad about Porzingis, and we. What are they doing? But you come to New York and on that team is Mitchell Robinson as a rookie year. What do you remember about him?

[DeAndre Jordan]

I mean, Mitch was just so raw, you know, but he obviously had the tools to be a great shot blocker, a great defender, a great rebounder. And I think that he's kind of stepped into that role. And, you know, he started some points of his career and coming off the bench now, and I think that he has really just been a star in whatever they're asking him to do, and I think that he's going to be huge in the series.

[Zach Lowe]

He's a big X factor to me in this series. They really need his offensive rebounding behind Victor. But did you get a. I mean, you're only there briefly. Did you get a chance to, like. Because he's, like, broadly similar to you as a player, did you get a chance to talk to him about that? Absolutely.

[DeAndre Jordan]

We work together a lot.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, because he also, as a young player, was not shy about, like, hey, I can shoot threes. I can take people off the bounce. And you went through a little bit of, like, I want to score more. Did you talk to him about that dynamic?

[DeAndre Jordan]

We talked about that. And when I got there, and I had already done a lot of the individual accolades throughout my career, and I thought Fizz did a really great job of, you know, kind of letting me take him under my wing a little bit. And Mitch was super receptive. He embraced that. He wanted that criticism. He wanted to get better. And we worked together a ton, and he saw what I had done in the prime of my career, and he was like, okay, well, I want to be able to do that. And I thought that it was great to have somebody like that, somebody to where I saw myself in them a little bit as a younger player. Embrace that. And I'm happy whenever I get to see him succeed out there.

[Zach Lowe]

Did you get to talk to him today at all when they were.

[DeAndre Jordan]

Not yet. Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

So when you're in New York after being traded there, your free agency is coming up, obviously there's a couple other high profile free agents that were coming up, and there were a lot of, like, rumblings of, like, oh, DeAndre is going to orchestrate all them to come to the Knicks. Was that ever really a thing? Did you all go to the Nets, obviously after that?

[DeAndre Jordan]

Yeah, it was a thing for a bit because, you know, in my mind, I was like, I'm already here. And then they have some pieces and they want to do some great things. And obviously we ended up going to Brooklyn, and that was a great experiment. It was fun. It was fun for me to be able to play with my friends. And those guys on Brooklyn were amazing. And even the young players that they had were great. So I think that it was a cool time to. To where, like, I got to be able to choose where I was going and kind of stick there for a little bit and play with some guys who I consider my friends. So I thought that that was a fun time. It didn't ultimately, like, help us win a championship, but it was a great experience and learning curve for me.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, and also, like, so many crazy things went wrong.

[DeAndre Jordan]

Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

Like a global pandemic occurred, all the injuries in 2021, where there's the foot on the toe on the line shot. Like, there's a lot of universes in which that actually clicks. Right. With before Harden and with Harden.

[Robert Horry]

Absolutely.

[DeAndre Jordan]

Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

It's kind of a team that is not derided, but like, oh, what if they barely play together? But there's a. Like, when it was rolling, it was great. It was a little bit scary.

[DeAndre Jordan]

Yeah, for sure. I mean, like, to see, like, three hall of Fame offensive juggernauts and playmakers on the floor. I tell people all the time, guys will either get their work in early pre practice or very quickly right after practice, because they would play ones after. So everybody wanted to kind of watch those guys play. And it's like, if you're a basketball fan, if you love the game and competition, you want to see these guys play against each other. And that was cool for me to be able to, you know, step out of a role and start to transition into a new one. So I really enjoyed my time there and playing with those guys.

[Zach Lowe]

So I've talked to Blake Griffin about this. I've talked to Chris Paul about it, talked to Doc Rivers about it. I have not talked to you about it. And you're the centerpiece of the story. I need to know your perspective of the famous DeAndre Jordan kidnapping of Dallas Free Agency.

[DeAndre Jordan]

Well, yeah, I mean, according to everybody online, I Got kidnapped at my own home.

[Zach Lowe]

In your own home.

[Tim Legler]

Yeah.

[DeAndre Jordan]

So that's great.

[Zach Lowe]

Home napping. I don't know.

[DeAndre Jordan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Gary Payton]

So it was.

[DeAndre Jordan]

It was. I didn't realize what was going on on social media until post.

[Zach Lowe]

The all time greatest day of NBA Twitter.

[DeAndre Jordan]

Yeah. I mean, like, everybody was involved, and I thought that that was crazy. And then it even came out that Mark was driving around Houston looking for my house or some craziness like that. And I just. It's crazy what people will believe and what people will say online. So I think I learned a lot about social media.

[Zach Lowe]

Yes.

[DeAndre Jordan]

At that point, but ultimately, you know, I appreciated Dallas in that time. You know, I know that there were some hard feelings at a time with that, but at the end of the day, you know, I didn't want to leave a certain job and take another job. That's all that happened.

[Zach Lowe]

You're a young guy.

[DeAndre Jordan]

Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

Faced with a tough decision.

[DeAndre Jordan]

Yeah, absolutely. And I think at that point, it was me seeing all the heartbreaking defeats and injuries and bad luck that we had with the Clippers, and I kind of was like, well, hey, maybe this is the time for. For me to go off and excel as an individual and do these different things. But, you know, truly my heart really wasn't in it. But I love everything that Dallas did,

[Zach Lowe]

and you had to go in there eventually.

[DeAndre Jordan]

Yeah. That's why when I got the call that they were interested in a free agency, I'm like, this is a joke. There's no way that this is again. Yeah. And I'm like, they're gonna renege on the deal or something's gonna happen. But, you know, I ended up getting trapped in the middle of the season, but I enjoy my time there. I'm a Cowboys fan anyway, so, like, I got to experience that firsthand. So it was. It was fun and nice little time in my. The weird part of my career.

[Zach Lowe]

So the thing I don't want to do with you is go rehash all the Clippers things. Because there were so many things that happened with the Clippers, and they've all been rehashed. Heartbreaking defeats, all of that. I think this. This current leg of your career will. That we'll call. It has been so much fun to watch because you come in as this young guy who, you know, wants to prove himself and then, you know, rises to become an all NBA player and an all Star and all this, and then you move around a little bit, and very easily your career could have petered out by now. And instead you become this, like, beloved, I mean, legitimately beloved, mentor, teammate. I think it's an awesome story, and I. I never want people to forget that in Game 5 of the Nuggets Heat finals, you got in that game a championship. Like, people talk about staying ready.

[DeAndre Jordan]

Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

Not everyone in your role, actually, everyone that lasts as long as you are and is in your role stays ready enough to play in a championship clinching game in real minutes.

[Gary Payton]

Absolutely.

[Zach Lowe]

When they called your number in that game, when Michael Mullen called your number, had he already told you, like, hey, we might need you in this game? And were you like, yeah, hell yeah, I'm ready.

[DeAndre Jordan]

Yeah. I think, you know, going, like, even now and back then, I. I prepare every game like I'm gonna play. Like I'm gonna play 30 minutes. Like, that's my pregame routine, whether it's my nap, how I prepare. I'm drenched in layup line. So I'm going into every game like I'm gonna play. And, you know, during that playoff run, I played against Minnesota, didn't play against the Lakers. And, you know, it kind of changes up a little bit. So anytime you have to be ready and people talk about staying ready, but it's. That's a real thing. Nicola was in foul trouble. Mo looked down at me and he said, dj, let's go. And I didn't think about, oh, this is the championship. I'm like, this is the opportunity that I've wanted. You know, whether it's 2 minutes or 12 minutes, 20 minutes, whatever it is, I'm going to go out there and play as hard as I can and try to make some winning plays. And ultimately I did that. We won a championship, and I just kind of embraced their role to whatever it was. I wanted to be able to compete and. And help the team out.

[Zach Lowe]

So I don't remember what the plus minus was in those minutes, but I think it was good.

[DeAndre Jordan]

Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

And I remember doing a podcast on the floor after that game. Brian Winhorst and I, we were both at espn. We would do one after every game of the finals. And I said, like, I just want to take a pause for a second and point out DeAndre Jordan went from not playing at all to getting thrown into a stressful finals game and, like, held up. I think that was, like, super cool. And I think the Twyman Stokes thing, are. Would you ever imagined winning an award like that? And. And, like, where does it rank in terms of your career? It was just announced, what, last week?

[Gary Payton]

Two weeks ago?

[DeAndre Jordan]

Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

Like, in your career Kind of achievements?

[DeAndre Jordan]

Well, I mean, I think it's cool. I think it's. It's. It's super humbling. For one, I feel like I've always been a pretty good teammate. It took people 18 years to realize it. I'm joking. But it's. It's cool because it shows, like, how somebody's able to adapt when it comes to different phases of their career. And for me, I think once I got to Denver, I kind of embraced that. I may play some nights, I may not play. And I was okay with that as long as I was still able to contribute somehow, whether it's on the floor, off the court. And then now I'm, you know, pouring back into the next generation, like guys did for me. And I think that that is the least I can do is, like, help the next generation. So our game continues to evolve, and the players get better, and that helps the league continue to get better.

[Zach Lowe]

Have you made a pick in this series yet?

[DeAndre Jordan]

I have not. I'm trying not to. I just.

[Zach Lowe]

I want to.

[DeAndre Jordan]

I want it to go seven.

[Zach Lowe]

You want it to be long?

[DeAndre Jordan]

I want it to be. Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

So without picking a team, do you think it will be long?

[DeAndre Jordan]

Yeah, I do, because I think the spurs are young, hungry, they have a lot of talent, and obviously they have, you know, the unanimous defensive player of the year. But I also think that the Knicks have been playing better basketball than anybody in these playoffs, so. And they. They. They're super hungry as well. You know, they could have made it to the finals last year if it wasn't for maybe game one of the Eastern Commerce finals. But these guys have been in the playoffs for a while. They feel like it's their time, so I'm excited to see what happens.

[Zach Lowe]

Craziest game I've ever attended. Game one of the Eastern Conference finals last year.

[DeAndre Jordan]

That's insane.

[Zach Lowe]

You played some crazy games with the Clippers. I wasn't at most of them, but that. That one will always stand out to me as, like, I remember I was at that game.

[DeAndre Jordan]

Yeah, that was. That was a crazy game.

[Zach Lowe]

All right, last thing. We have a score to settle. I'm not sure you realize this. You have blocked me on Twitter.

[DeAndre Jordan]

I did.

[Zach Lowe]

For 10 years.

[DeAndre Jordan]

I did.

[Zach Lowe]

And you never unblocked me.

[DeAndre Jordan]

Really?

[Zach Lowe]

And I think I know why.

[DeAndre Jordan]

Would you say. Did you say some bad stuff about me?

[Zach Lowe]

I don't even think it was bad.

[DeAndre Jordan]

Okay.

[Zach Lowe]

It's certainly not positive.

[DeAndre Jordan]

Okay.

[Zach Lowe]

But I don't think it was bad.

[DeAndre Jordan]

This is 10 years ago.

[Zach Lowe]

10 years ago.

[Gary Payton]

Oh, yeah.

[DeAndre Jordan]

Yeah. I was, I was. Yeah, this was for sure.

[Zach Lowe]

So I think we need to have a ceremonial. Not live, but an unblocking. But I think what got back to me, and you can. This is now your.

[DeAndre Jordan]

Well, that's the problem. Because whatever it is, it wasn't from me.

[Zach Lowe]

So maybe that's what got back to me. Was he or somebody around. You may be mad that you kind of poked fun at DeAndre's tendency at, to use my words, to steal defensive rebounds from his teammates. Because there was one, there was one in particular where you damn near decapitated poor JJ Redick, who was just right under the ball about to get a defensive reaction. You're like, no, no, I'm the big man. This is my rebound. I'm coming in. And I think either you didn't like it or someone didn't like it. So I just, I, I got to speak my truth. I thought you were a big guy, you were getting your rebounds, and I thought you were going to kill J.J. redick in the pursuit of a rebound that he was going to get. And I think I've been blocked ever since. And I checked this morning, I'm like, I still can't see DeAndre Orton's tweets.

[DeAndre Jordan]

Yeah, I don't, I don't do my, my tweets. But I will say, at that point in my career, JJ's little ass needs to get out of the way. Like every, at that point in my career, I'm like, every rebound that comes off, whether it's offensive, defensive, it belongs to me. And I feel like that just kind of like turned a switch. So everything that came off the glass,

[Zach Lowe]

I guess it's gotta be all or nothing, right? You can't modulate that.

[DeAndre Jordan]

Yeah. And I'm like, hey, if I get the rebound, I'll kick it up to you guys. You guys go see score. But like anything that comes off his

[Zach Lowe]

mind, it might have been that. It might have been like if, if when you play drop back defense, any big man that plays drop back defense, if you're not like completely into it or if it's a bad matchup, that

[DeAndre Jordan]

can look like you're not doing anything.

[Zach Lowe]

Like you're not doing anything, but really you're just executing the scheme. And I think also back early in my career, I may not have understood that as well, but I think it was the stealing, defensive rebounds thing. But you got to catch your money. You got to get your paychecks, man. Yeah, but it also, rebounds get more

[DeAndre Jordan]

star in that, you know, and that's I became obsessed with it, man. So it was, I mean, it turned out okay.

[Zach Lowe]

You're coming back next year, right?

[DeAndre Jordan]

Yeah, that's the plan.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay. Well, I think it's awesome. I think this whole late career path has been great. And it's great you're going to be around the finals for a lot of it. All of it.

[DeAndre Jordan]

Some of it.

[Gary Payton]

Yeah.

[Robert Horry]

Yeah.

[Gary Payton]

We'll see.

[Zach Lowe]

All right. I hope we. I'm with you. I. My Official pick was Nixon 7. I think they can actually do it.

[DeAndre Jordan]

I do, too. I think that, I mean, they're here for a reason, right?

[Zach Lowe]

So they're underdogs, but I think they can do it. But I'm like, I just, like, let's just have a long, crazy series. That's all I want. All right, DeAndre Jordan, thanks for spending some time with us. I'll see you at the finals.

[DeAndre Jordan]

Unblocked on social media.

[Gary Payton]

There you go.

[Zach Lowe]

You heard it right here. All right. That's it for this episode of the Zach Lowe show. Not your normal episode. Thanks for sticking with us. Thank you to Jonathan Frias on site with us today in San Antonio. Thank you to our great local crew who helped set us up today. Thank you to Robert Horry, DeAndre Jordan, Tim Legler, Ian Begley, Gary Payton for their time on an exhausting day for them on podcast row. Thanks to you all for listening to and or watching the Zach Low show game one of the NBA Finals. By the time this goes up, will be today. Buckle up. It should be an awesome series. Thanks, everybody. 21 or over and president select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over in President, D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1 in 100, Gambler or 1-800-My Reset. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or is it mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland? Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-Hopeny or text hopeny in New York. For Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7867.