← The Zach Lowe Show
The Zach Lowe Show
NBA Weekend Roundup, Rookie Deal Extensions With Fred Katz, and Talking Life With Gary Gulman
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This episode is brought to you by NBA 2K26 quick timeout. NBA 2K26 is here and it's looking sharp. New motion engine, smoother catch and shoot and rhythm shooting that actually feels natural, like real basketball flow. In my team they've added the W so you can run Nafisa Collier, Tyrese Haliburton and Tim Duncan. It's his beautiful blend of spacing IQ and quiet dominance. Mycareer is also all new. The city's more efficient and the whole thing just plays faster and smarter. NBA 2K26 is out now and it's genuinely impressive this year. If you haven't jumped in yet, now's the time. Ball over everything Coming up on the Zach Low Show. It's Monday. Everyone's fresh and eager and ready to go. We got a lot of stuff. We got Fred Katz coming on from the Athletic and the Cats and Shoe podcast. We're going to go rapid fire through the entire 2022 first round draft class. Well, I'm not entire. We kind of omitted a couple of guys. Sorry. Are they going to get extensions? Are they not going to get extensions? The deadline is coming up for all of those guys, starting with, you know, the Keegan Murray's and Jaden Ivies, Jalen Durance, Mark Williams, Dyson Daniel, shaded sharp. We're going to hit all of them and we come to a verdict. Yes or no. Some answers may surprise you, some may not. Then Gary Goleman, ace comedian and huge NBA fan, talks about just everything. Life, books, having a large nose, being insecure as a kid, the 1981 Celtics, everything. And then at the very front, I just rapid fire go through the news of the weekend. Al Horford, Sixers Media Day oh my God. Injuries in Memphis and Portland. We got a lot of ground to cover. Coming up on the Zach Lowe Show. This episode of the Zach Lowe show is presented by HubSpot. Using only 20% of your business data is like going from a starting five to a starting one. Good luck with that. But that's how most businesses operate today, using only 20% of their data. Unless you have HubSpot, where all the data hidden in emails, call logs and chat messages turns into insights to grow your business. Because having all the data makes all the difference. Learn more@HubSpot.com welcome to the Zach Lowe show on a Monday morning. Before we get to Fred Katz and the rookie extensions, let's very quickly go through the news since the last time we convened, starting with the Golden State Warriors. Sham Strane of ESPN Broke the news that we all already kind of knew. The warriors are signing Al Horford, DE Anthony Melton, Gary Payton II and some second round picks, deals not disclosed because they can't be done until Jonathan Kaminga is or is not done. That appears to be perhaps going to the wire. I think the warriors are going to start Al Horford and look at what a real shooting center with some defensive chops even at his advanced age looks like with the Butler Green kind of non shooting but super high IQ passing cutting screening thing around Stefan. Whoever gets the fifth spot could be buddy healed. I might go Pajemski just for the all around iq. They might go heel because of shooting and with Butler, Green and Horford some defensive cover. Look, this is like if Melton stays healthy always an if Moses Moody's still around, could he start? I don't know. I don't think so. But maybe they got some real depth and I think the Van Vliet injury is a huge win for like the Lakers, Clippers, Clippers, Wolves and Warriors contingent of like hey, maybe we have a little bit more of a puncher's chance than we thought to get to the conference finals. I just don't see still like a finals championship level ceiling for this team as great as they were with Butler and Green. Not sure how sustainable that's going to be, but the door is a little bit ajar. I just, I don't see the title window. But good for Al. By the way, interesting question. Is Al Horford a Hall of Famer? You might just like gut yes and I think yes is my answer. Ultimately. Five time all Star. That's kind of on the low end for a Hall of Famer. One time all NBA third team. That's on definitely on the low end. One time all rookie. But he is a champion. He's a two time college champion and he just doesn't play a style that like gets him the numbers to get those kinds of awards. And yet everyone sort of understands how good he is. I think he will be a Hall of Famer. Item number two, the Grizzlies announced on Friday that their entire center rotation other than Jock Landell is still injured and more injured than previously thought in one case and that's Brandon Clark who had a setback in his recovery. He has has to undergo surgery. No timetable there. Jaren Jackson Jr. Out four to six weeks. That was kind of expected. Six weeks could be 10ish games. 12. Eight. That's not so bad. Four would not be very much. But again, how quickly z Jaron Jackson Jr. Zach Eddy out six to nine weeks. Nine. Nine weeks. Could be 20 games. That's a lot. It's left with Jock Landell and that's it for centers. You ready to see some Santi Aldama at center? Wing depth is going to be stretched thin as long as those guys are out. Look, it doesn't seem like that much of amount of time and in Triple J's case, it might not be. But it doesn't like guarantee that they're going to then play the rest of the season without further injuries. Everyone's going to take injuries along the way. Margin for error in the west, not high. Not high. Every year there are a couple teams that you get 30 games into the season, it's just like not working out and it becomes sort of an accidental tank year and tanking. Obviously less profitable at the top than it used to be, but could be very profitable in the middle. Just keep an eye on it. Number three, the Philadelphia 76ers had media day. You know, I was out to lunch on Friday during Philadelphia 76ers media day, actually with another reporter who showed me remain nameless because I want to protect the identity, his identity and the identity of his loved ones. And two NBA people. I'll just say. And the reporter, other reporter began making the case for the Sixers, the 20, 25, 26 Sixers. And his case started with, you know, if we get this year where Joel Embiid plays 60 games. And I said, I'm going to stop you right there, nameless reporter. I will pay you $200 in cash if Joel Embiid plays 60 games this year. 200 bucks. I don't even need like a win on the other end of the bet when he doesn't play six games. I will just give you $200 cash. The other guys at the table are like, you don't even want anything. Like you're just going to just. It's a one sided bet. Absolutely. He's not playing 60 games. But if you know and then right away it comes out. No timetable for Joel Embiid return. Everyone's Tim, everything's going well. Skinny. I'm going to listen to my body. We're going to take it day by day. 200 bucks. And then I texted the group. I was like, maybe I should have said 200 bucks over the next two seasons combined. Paul George, timetable uncertain. Okay. McCain still injured. Quentin Grimes not even going to Abu Dhabi with the team as the standoff continues. And by the way, if the Sixers offer is really four years, 40 million. As Jake Fisher and Mark Stein have reported and I've heard. No, nothing to the contrary. Quinn Grimes should take the goddamn qualifying offer. His qualifying offers $8 million. I don't think there's a lot of risk for him like there is for Kaminga. Some risk at least for Kaminga in leaving money on the table. If that's the offer, take the qualifying offer and move on. That's fine. And by the way, it's not like the Sixers are swimming in elite young talent. I think Quentin Grimes is a good player. He's only 25 years old. I don't think he's like a huge high upside kind of player. Like, like Maxi already is almost an all NBA level player. McCain showed huge potential in his 25 games. Edgecomb, we'll see. Like, like you just. Clinton Grimes would seem like a guy I'd like to have around. Boy, the Sixers. It's not going to happen. It's not going to happen. Scoot Henderson out four to eight weeks. That stinks. Eight weeks could be just 15, 16 games on the high end. Four weeks could be like nothing. It's maybe it's nothing. I'm just saying, like I really need to get a lot of information this year. If I'm the Blazers, it's why I've lobbied for them to start Scoot Henderson and or Shane Sharp, but probably maybe just Scoot instead of going all veteran. I think because I got to see. I got to see what he is. I want to see what he is. I want to see him playing with the other veterans on the team. I want to see what he can do with Clingan. How good can Clingan's offense get? Can he do a little more facilitating from the elbow? Yang Han Sen is obviously here. How do they mesh? So just like Scoot. It just feels like he can't get the career going and I just want like give me just 50 straight games of scoot playing 30 minutes. That's what I want to see. So that stinks. And I think that about exhausts are news of the weekend. We'll see what happens with Kaminga and Grimes. On to the rest of the podcast with Fred Katz and Gary Goldman. All right, Fred Katz of the Athletic, how you doing?
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I'm doing wonderful. How about you?
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I'm not great, Fred. I've been better. Okay. Last week I did an episode mini episode on the veteran extension candidates starring Tyler Herro and Trey Young. Now it's time for the more interesting sort of Annual issue of guys from entering their fourth season, the 2022 draft, this year up for rookie deal extensions. We're going to go rapid fire through 12 guys. A couple I omitted because either I don't care apologies to them or because it's already been reported, as in Walker Kessler's case, somehow inexplicably, with two weeks to go, Walker Kessler and the Jazz were like, no, we're too far apart. We can't possibly come to a middle ground about this nice NBA starting center who's like pretty good. I don't get it. But it is what it is. We're going to go in draft order, Fred Cat, and we're going to say a yes or no at the end for every single one of these 12 guys. Are you ready?
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I'm ready.
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Number one, Keegan Murray, Sacramento Kings. The number four pick in the draft for maybe the league's most depressing franchise. New front office regime. Not the one that drafted him and might have felt a little bit more invested in his. In his future and in proving that they were right in the draft. Good player, solid, solid defender. 3 point shot. Has sunk in each of his three seasons. Usage rate has sunk in each of his three seasons, but he is the position you want. I think he can shoot and he can defend. How much he can do on the ball is a little bit of an uncertainty. I think this will come in. If it comes in the 20s. I could see a negotiation between low 20s and high 20s. I could see an aggressive. I think Mark Bartlestein represents him like, hey, how about 30? And the king's saying no and this all coming in around 25. I am going to go yes. For Keegan Murray, a deal gets done just because when, even when it looks bad, Bartlestein clients tend to sneak it in there and get a deal done. But nothing would, nothing would surprise me on any of these.
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Yeah. You know, speaking of the Bartlestein connection, I remember a few years ago with Brandon Clark in Memphis, those sides were really, really far apart. And eventually at the very end, last second, you just kind of get something done. Bartlestein likes working out those extensions. On top of that, I think he has some real leverage here in that Sacramento just doesn't have young guys. I mean, Keegan Murray is their young guy. He's 25, but he's their young guy. And Kean Ellis is 25. Devin Carter is, you know, was their first round pick last year, but he was a question mark with the way that he struggled last year. The Thing with Keegan Murray, if he says, you know, you say 30. If he says, I want 30, I think the question there is like, okay, well, do the Kings believe that he can do more stuff with the ball than he's shown over the first three years? Because I don't think in this cap era you can commit that much money to a guy who's not going to do stuff with the ball. He, he ran two pick and rolls per 100 possessions last season, and that's just not enough. Jaylen Johnson got 30 million. You know, that's, that's a comp if you're going to say 30. And he was not a guy who handled the ball all that much, but Atlanta obviously believed they could handle the offense or hand more of the offense over to him over time, which they really did last year after extending him. And, you know, he was a guy who really handled, especially with Trey Young off the court. He was, you know, 20 pick and rolls per 100 possessions during those scenarios. So I don't think Murray is that guy. I agree. I think he comes in somewhere in the 20s. And they're far apart now. They are. I know, I know they're far apart now. I, I, I'm going to say yes. I'm going to. And to be clear, by the way, this is a prediction, right? This is not.
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Yeah, we're not, we're not. Yeah, these are just, we're just having fun, Fred. We're just having fun with other people's money. Like, what else do we do in the NBA? We have fun with other people's money. I'm going, yes, the Kings are depressing. And I do, I do sense, though, and this, this is sort of a governing thought for this entire discussion, Right? All of these guys are watching the Kaminga Grimes stalemates playing out in restricted free agency, which is their future. If there is no deal to be done. You enter restricted free agency. All these guys and their agents know or have been told next summer is going to be better because instead of one team with cap room, there'll be seven or eight or six or nine or five, depending on some things with cap room. I do, however, think that the number of teams with cap room has been slightly exaggerated. I think some of that cap room is going to get used up. I think a couple of teams that have potential cap room are teams with these extension candidates on them, and that gives those teams a little bit more leverage because they can say, yeah, X amount of teams can have cap room. Guess what? We're one of them. And so, like, you don't. We're one less option for you. And I do sense among a lot of agents, even some of the hardcore guys, a kind of realism of, yeah, we can sit here and be like, we want the max. We want almost the max. This guy got the max. A name that comes up a lot is Devin Vassell. And when Devin Vassell signed his extension with the spurs, which is like 25 a year or something, there was some talk about, like, wow, you know, he could have played it to the end. He might have left some money on the table, like, the cap's going up and this and that. And I remember just thinking, like, this dude's been injured. He's kind of unproven. We don't really know if he can defend. We don't know how much on ball stuff he can do. And he just got like a hundred was whatever million dollars. I hear that a lot. I think there's going to be a lot of reasonable minds in some of these negotiations, even though now three weeks out, they might be far apart. That leads me into, I think, to me, the hardest one to pin down in the entire group. And we'll do two pistons at once here. Jaden Ivy, the number four pick, the number five pick in the draft, right behind King of Murray. And then we'll go down and do number 13, Jalen Durham. We'll start with Jaden Ivey. Missed 52 games last season with an injury. Watched the team kind of develop an identity in his absence, although they could have used his skill set, you know, was so heralded coming out into the draft that the Kings were kind of lambasted for not picking him. And of course, now they have no guards, no point guards of any kind. Whether Jaden IV's a point guard is up to you. I would say this. This is one of the teams that could theoretically have cap space in the summer. Tobias Harris is a free agent, blah, blah, blah. If you actually put the cap holds in place of Duran and Ivey, they don't have cap space. If you vaporize Ivey's cap hold and just say, we don't want you anymore, you're gone. But keep Duran's. You could have some, but, like, not a crazy amount, and it still involves you, like, not bringing back, like, Boby Clinton and guys that you might like. I'm. My gut is this. I think there's distance. I think there's a great amount of distance between the two sides in both cases right now. Ivy and Duran. Duran has the smaller Cap hold. So there could be some incentive for the Pistons to say, hey, you wait. We'll keep your $19 million cap hold on the books. We deal with you next summer. Despite that, Fred Katz, I am going to go no on Ivy and yes on Duran for the simple reason of. I mentioned the reasonable minds thing already, and I think that could prevail in at least the Duran case. The Ivy case. I'm not so sure. It's a hard one to read. I just feel like the Pistons know they have something in Cunningham, Thompson, Duran, and there's a little uncertainty about how Ivy might fit in that equation. And Ivy's gonna want a lot of money and the Pistons will be okay playing it out. That's just my semi educated prediction is no Ivy yes during. What say you?
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Okay, we have our first disagreement. Okay, I'm feeling no on both.
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Could be.
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And there are a couple of reasons for that. First of all, the way the Pistons operate. So Ivy last year shot the ball really well. But it wasn't just that he shot the ball well. Right? Like he, he changed himself in kind of some unglamorous ways last year I thought were really impressive. He was running off of more screens off the ball than he had in any other year of his career and shot 45% on catch and shoot threes, which was way better than anything that we had seen from him before. But it was 30 games, so we don't really know. Duran obviously is an inside out center. Thompson they love as they should, but he is so far away from, from being a shooter. The Pistons have grander aspirations of like maybe not this upcoming year of being this awesome team. Although I think they reasonably expect to finish somewhere in the middle of the Eastern Conference playoff picture and maybe win a playoff series. They almost did that last year. If you end a playoff game with Duran and Thompson and if Ivy shot goes back to what it was before, before last year, then all of a sudden you've got three guys who you either have no problem helping off of on the perimeter or like feel pretty good about helping off of on the perimeter. And that's going to really stunt Cade's pick and roll game. That's going to really stunt anybody who wants to drive into the lane at any given point. And if Duran and, and, and Thompson can't be on the floor at the same time during their most important moments, then is it worth committing to those guys long term? Or do you just say, you know what, we'll, we'll figure it out from here. I also think Another thing that's worth noting is if you extend those guys, then all of a sudden you can't trade them in the in season. And I'm not predicting the Pistons to make a big in season trade. I do think the Pistons, if they had their, if they could get these guys for good deals, I think they'd do it. But I do think the Pistons, if they had their druthers, would like to just be open to the possibility of a big trade because that's, that's one way they could use their cap space. You could just use it before the summer. I'm bringing in some, you know, really good player who makes a difference for them and you or Lowry Markkanem for.
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Or I was going to say or the Utah Jazz could get some freaking religion, realize their place in the league and decide when Lowry Markkanen if and when he rehabs his trade value. I think the Pistons would be if not at the front of the line elbowing people to try to get to the front of the line. I will like to your I would say if when you said disagree, I thought you were going to be a yes on Ivy and a no on Duran. I think the correct disagreement is no on both. Like I think no on both is probably the most likely scenario to me right now because I do think there's a gulf in both cases. I just feel like the Duran I just, my gut is I feel like the Duran one has a chance. So I'm going to go out on him and say yes. Want to move on?
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B
Let's do it.
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A
This episode is brought to you by Samsung. The new Galaxy Z Fold 7 is the ultimate sleek bar phone you're used to that expands to do so much more. Z Fold 7 unfolds into a widescreen that allows you to view up to three windows at once so you can bounce between games, text and notes. And it's powerful. There's no lag, just smooth multitasking. Die hard fans. This phone is a game changer. The the Galaxy Z Fold 7 learn more at samsung.com display measurements of diagonal and actual viewable areas less due to rounded corners and camera hole punch number six pick. I think this one's going to be quick for me. Benedict Matheran I'm going no, no extension on Benedict Matheran who went from the guy that the Pistons seemed most likely to salary dump in order to clean up their books in case Miles Turner resigned to like oh my God, he's going to start this year and we don't have Tyrese Halliburton we don't have Miles Turner. I don't necessarily think that change in his status makes an extension more likely. I don't sense a lot of momentum right now. I'm going no.
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Yeah, I'm going no too. Can I, can I, you mentioned the, the cap room teams before or the teams with cap room. Can I, can I just read off the teams? Because I think when we talk about teams with cap room, if you got six or seven teams with cap room, it could be six or seven good teams with cap room, it could be six or seven bad teams with cap room do it. And I think the makeup of those teams matters because it will affect how the market plays out in 2026. And this is something that every agent's going to look at. So here are the teams that I think like have a legitimate chance of creating real cap room.
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And go one by one. I'll give you a one word take on each team.
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Wizards.
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Bad.
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Bulls.
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But, but lots of cap room. Bulls. Interesting. The most interesting one, Chaz.
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Nets. If they want to Heat, don't.
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I mean it's a huge. If there's too many ifs, too many Fs.
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Hornets.
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Okay.
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Pistons could do it if they absolutely need to.
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Long shot Blazers could do it if.
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They absolutely need to.
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We'll get there with shade and sharp. Long shot Hawks could do it if.
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They have something crazy going on because the closing is coming off the books.
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And that is kind of you for Lakers.
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I mean, the Lakers could. The Lakers have to lose a lot of guys. I mean, that's, that's LeBron coming off, it's Rui coming off, it's Austin Reeves coming off.
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This is my point earlier is it's nice to say 8, 12, 10 teams will have cap room. It's not actually true. And it could be closer to like four and three of them could be the absolute dregs of the NBA.
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And those dregs are not going to necessarily go for somebody like, I don't know, we're going to talk about Christian Brown at one point. Like if you're the Wizards, you're not going to go and spend all your resources on Christian Brown. Not because Christian Brown is anything short of a really good.
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Yeah. Why would the women try to get a good. Why would the Wizards try to get a good basketball player?
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Well, when you're in that position, you gotta find like somebody who can run some stuff. Like Christian Brown is wonderful, complimentary player, but you put him around.
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All right, we'll get there.
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So my point is with Matheran is just like, I don't think the Pacers are going to necessarily want to pay him right now. I think there's the other side of this, which is I think Matheran could reasonably convince himself that, you know what, I actually am somebody who could maybe get something from another team. Because like the Nets have only Cam Thomas creating stuff with the ball right now. You know, they have a bunch of rookie point guards, but they're rookie point guards. The Nets have only Cam Thomas as a creator. Right. Right now and that is it. Like their second best veteran creator is like Michael Porter Jr. And so when Cam Thomas is off the books and certainly not on the Nets next year, they're going to need just like someone who can give them 18 to 20 points. So maybe the Nets will be like, let's give Ben Matheran something or maybe another team that just needs to fill 18 to 20 points is going to be like, yeah, sure, let's bring in this guy. And I think he's the type of guy who could be more attractive to those kinds of teams. It's not a shot on Matheran. It's just more of a commentary on his style because he's more of a spark plug and he can fit into more of a scoring on ball role, I think. And, and so I think he could convince himself that maybe he could get some money, especially if he steps up this year with Halliburton out and, and Turner gone and with the Pacers in need of, you know, him and Neart and Siakam to pick up the on ball slack.
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A
So you're a no.
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I'm a no.
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I'm a no. Don't see it. Number. Number seven. Pick. Shade and sharp. This is a tricky one. Like you said, the, the Blazers are a theoretical cap space team. His cap hold doesn't really matter because it's, it's very large. It's 25 whatever million. So like if they want cap room, they'll just renounce it. Either way they could open up like 35ish. But that's without him. It's without Chris Murray, it's without signing anyone else. So it's, it's somewhat of a long shot. I am going to go no on shade and Sharp. I think the two sides have not. I don't sense that there's been a lot of talks yet. The talk this is like the week when these things start to be really talked about. I could see there being despite I think all minds in this being pretty reasonable. Like I don't Think Shaden Sharpe's people at clutch are going to go in and be like, the max. He's a max player. He scores all these points. He has all this, like, he's dripping with raw talent. But I think between his sort of high wattage potential and the fact that clearly Chauncey Billups has been less than thrilled with him and brought him off the bench last year because he hasn't sort of made enough improvement in the weaker spots of his game, I could see the Pistons going in and be like, we'll do a deal if it's around the mid level or 17, 18 million dollars a year. Shaden Sharp's people feeling insulted by that and the whole thing going south. I like Shaden Sharp. I'm bullish on him as an offensive player. I am going no on this one.
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B
I'm going no, too. I'm going no also. And. And it's more because I think the Blazers are in kind of a. I don't know whether to call it a. It's some kind of trans.
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A
How do you describe Discovery? I'm calling them a. They're in discovery mode.
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B
That's good. Yeah, they're. They're. They're in their Eat, Pray, Love phase. Like, they're.
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I don't know what that book's about. She travels around and, like, travels around.
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B
To Europe and she eats, she prays, she loves, and she finds herself in the process. And I feel like that's kind of what's happening with the blazers.
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A
What happened 15 years later. How's she doing 15 years later? Is she still good?
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B
She just. She just signed Damian Lillard just now.
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A
Okay.
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I. I'm. I'm wondering what happens with the Blazers in terms of Sharp and Scoot and obviously you got Holiday injected into there in terms of just being able to run the offense. Denny. Danny Abdia had an incredible second half last year and really busted out. Is like, that guy is an incredibly good player and can do stuff with the ball and in transition and you can catch and shoot, and he can just kind of do everything as a wing. And with Sharp, he's just been inconsistent. Like, he'll have these moments of. Oh, my goodness. And then we have these moments of vanishment until. Have the. If that's a word, vanishing. And then he'll have, you know, aloof moments defensively. And I think they're gonna want to see what Sharp is like in this scenario and if that talent can kind of come together. So I'm with you. I think they're gonna end up. They're gonna end up waiting and I think it's a no.
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A
Julia Roberts played the author of Eat Pray love in a 2010 film. Have you seen that film? I'm calling it a film, not a movie. It's a film.
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B
It is, it is. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's wonderful.
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A
I haven't seen it and I won't see it. I want to know what happens. I want to know all these people who write these memoirs. I want to know, are you really fine? Do you really find yourself? What's going on now? How about Eat Pray Love, the sequel, Eat too much, stop praying and break up. Okay. Jeremy Silhan, number no. Dyson Daniels. I forgot about Dyson Daniels. Number eight pick in the draft of the Hawks. The Hawks have to think hard about a lot of players and that mitigates against an extension. They got to think about Porzingis and they have all year to do it. They got to think about Trey Young and they got all year to do it. They know they got to pay rise sachet down the line. They know they've already paid Jalen Johnson, as you mentioned, a deal that's going to age really well despite. And Dyson Daniels can come in and be like, look man, not only was I the best perimeter defender in the NBA probably last year, I also averaged 14 a game. I won most improved player. I shot 54% from twos. I like created offense when like on my own almost when possessions broke down sometimes with my little floater and my bully ball shoulder shimmying game. I want 30, I want a number that starts with a three. Look at some of the other comps in the league. I'm, I'm like, I can get 30 million. That's me. And I could say the Hawks saying three to 30, that's, that's a lot. And yet I am going yes on Dyson Daniels. I think the Hawks value Dyson Daniels. I think they realize he is the prize of a trade that really saved their medium term trajectory as a franchise. The Dejounte Murray outgoing trade. And I just get the sense they love him, he likes it there. Reasonable minds. Okay, I don't get 30 or 29 or 28, but like 24, 25, 26 is a lot of goddam money. I'm taking it. I'm going yes on Dyson Daniels.
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B
I think Dyson Daniels probably says a similar sort of thing. Like I think Dyson Daniels comes in and is like emmanuel quickley got 32 and a half a year.
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A
Yeah, I'm better than that guy. He doesn't even play.
- [29:53]
B
Exactly. And then I think the Hawks are going to say, well, you know, Herb Jones just extended for three years, 68. And then I think Dyson's going to say, yeah, well, that was an obviously below market deal and Herb played 20 games last year. And I, I, I'm a. Yes. I think they find somewhere in the middle there in like the 23 to 26 a year or maybe 23 to 26 starting range. Because, because also something the Hawks have to protect against. And I know it always sounds weird to say this coming off of a guy who just won most improved, but you have to protect against another league from a leap from Dyson Daniels because it's plausible that he takes his ball handling game to another level this year. He's still, what, he's 22, he's very.
- [30:38]
A
Young and his younger brother is coming, by the way. He's 22. Yeah.
- [30:41]
B
So in, in New Orleans, he, it wasn't that he couldn't shoot New Orleans, he just wouldn't shoot like he, he would get. So I've talked about it with like Larry Nance who, who was a teammate with him in New Orleans and then obviously came over in the trade and was there in Atlanta. And he's talked about the difference in his just mentality of like, if he missed a shot in New Orleans, he just would not put it back up again. And that changed last year where he just became so much more confident in his offensive game. And we saw that in his pick and rolls too. I think you want to be able to lock that in just in case. Up until January 31st last year, Dyson Daniels was in the 25th percentile of efficiency as a pick and roll ball handler. That's according to Second Spectrum. After that date, he was in the 49th percentile. That's not a great number. It's twice as good. And it continues this same trajectory of like, Dyson Daniels keeps getting better. He keeps getting better. The Hawks, since they've acquired him, have been saying, no, he's going to keep getting better. And if something goes awry with Trey Young, you have a good roster. You can be competitive. And if you have Dyson Daniels coming off the books and Trey Young, because something crazy happens with Trey Young, it's like, oh man, you've got like nothing in terms of creation. And then maybe Dyson has a ton of leverage in free agency negotiations next year. So if you can just get him locked into a price and he's going to defend like one of the best defensive guards in the league while doing it and at the very least be somebody who can run the offense a little bit. Betray Young off, if not, maybe, well, if he makes that improvement, I think the Hawks will be fine with that deal. And I think something, it just makes sense for something to get done here. There's no contentiousness and there's no real disagreement in terms of what Dyson Daniels thinks of himself as a player and what the Hawks think of him. Like they love him. They absolutely love him and they always have. And, and so I just, when that happens, stuff tends to get done.
- [32:38]
A
Yeah. You know, I've asked several times and talking about Trey Young and I've already lobbied for the Hawks to extend him at a submax level. I pitched 4, 184, 185 last week. I've already said like one of the reasons I, I, I think it's, that's a good idea for the Hawks is not sure what their roadmap is without Trae Young. What's the fulcrum of their team without Trae Young. What's the organizing principle of their offense without Trae Young? And I suspect if you talk to the Hawks brain trust, they would acknowledge that. That's an interesting question, but also say if we have Dyson and Risa Shay and Jalen Johnson and a representative center, like, we got some stuff, we got some guys who can do stuff as a collective and, and we also have a place, an ecosystem where like maybe we can attract a free agent down the line who answers that question. But that requires a yes at some point on Dyson Daniels. I'm betting now number nine pick, Jeremy Sohan for the San Antonio Spurs. I am going no. I have not talked to anyone in Jeremy Sohan's world about this, but I'm going no. And the, because I think even if Jeremy Sohan's people went to the spurs and said, hey look, we know it's been a little up and down, particularly offensively, defensively has been good, but not great. Yeah, you can pass and screen and all this stuff, but like how much are you really leaning into all that? We get it. We'll just do a deal for the mid level exception now and just we'll call it even. Great. Maybe we'll even do like 14 a year, like 4 years, 56 or something. Fair, right? Spurs people and I could see the spurs being like, yeah, it's fair, but like even that we have so many questions about your fit next to Victor Wembanyama and all these guards we have who are like so. So shooters long term that even that is like, we don't feel the need to do that now. We can do that in the summer. That can end up being a contract that we regret if things go badly. So I'm just going like no across the board on Jeremy Sohan. Pure gut feel.
- [34:38]
B
Yeah. I mean, I'll be quick on this because I have similar sentiments. I'm. I'm a no as well. And I think when you bring in Harper and then you also have Castle and. And you've got Wembanyama there. Like, you. You wonder about the shooting with those two guards there and you've got the Aaron Fox. You wonder about the shooting. You wonder about the viability of having Sohan out there as well. I actually really like Sohan. I think he could evolve as like a bigger Bruce Brown sort of guy who can do a little bit of everything. He got killed that one season. Pop was playing him at point guard. And I'm not saying he was good at it, but I've also found you randomly play a guy at point guard, young in his career. It can really change his perspective and be really good for his development, even if it's disastrous at the time. I, you know, Giannis has talked about when Jason Kidd would play him at point and he got just. Kidd got raked over the coals for that. And it helped Giannis see the game from a totally different perspective and helped him long term as a facilitator. I think he has a chance to be a really, really good connector. But I agree, from a fit standpoint, this is a roster that has a lot of young guys and has some. Some overlap there. And Sochan is a guy who could fit on a winning team really well. It also has to be kind of the right winning team. And I think we're yet to see exactly what the spurs become. And until we know that, then it's harder to say how Sohan fits into it.
- [36:05]
A
Number 10 pick, Johnny O. Johnny Davis. Okay.
- [36:09]
B
Oh, man. Zach. That's two consecutive podcasts in which we've talked about Johnny Davis. What's happening here?
- [36:15]
A
What's wrong with me? Usman Jeng. We're skipping. Hasn't done enough in the NBA. Agbaji. We're skipping. Hasn't done enough in the NBA. Sorry. That brings us to Mark Williams. Probably my third toughest case right now. Suns traded for him. Charlotte tried to trade for him before the Suns traded for him. Has played 43, 19 and 44 games in the NBA has loads of potential as shown by the fact that multiple teams are willing to give up like real stuff for him ahead of this negotiation that we're talking about. Those games played would suggest that a smart agency, and he has smart agents at Excel, would take a reasonable deal, any reasonable deal to guarantee money for him, whether it's, you know, 15 a year, 18 a year, 20 a year. The other side is this could be one of those cases where the game's played track record is so low that the Suns are like, we can really only go like a low, like a low number to lock you in or else we'll just wait for the summer when there's no cap room. This one to me could go either way. I don't feel good about this prediction. I am just going to lean no and say the Suns table it for the offseason and use this as a prove it year.
- [37:35]
B
It is the greatest excuse ever to not extend a guy when you just traded for him. All you got to say is we got to see you in our building, we got to see you in our locker room. We got to see how this goes. And with Williams, like, unless you're putting some very strict injury provisions in there, it's, it's hard to justify giving him long term money when he literally just, you know, had a trade reversed because of his medicals. I, I, I don't think the Suns will do it. I don't think there have really been talks yet at all. I don't think there's been much like, I don't think there's really been, it's not, there hasn't been traction. I don't think they've even really started talking. I think that that's going to get started at some point here in the next few weeks. But I mean, that obviously makes it seem like, at least to me, that, like this is not front of mind for either of these sides. And that makes me think that, no, it's not necessarily going to happen. Play out this year, see how they do. You know, the Suns also have to be a little more conservative. They've got a $20 million Jed capit from Bradley Beal and you got to be a little more conservative on that front. You don't want to be stuck with, you know, paying Mark Williams $15 million and all of a sudden he's got a serious injury and he's unable to play or he plays 20 games a year on the contract.
- [38:52]
A
I don't think the ishbia, the ishbia ownership group, AKA Ishbia, has got to be thrilled that the Phoenix Mercury are in the WNBA Finals. Hats off to Nick Uren, who did an incredible job rebuilding that team, retooling that team, and Nate Tibbets because they can just say, like, this thing, this thing worked really well. We're doing great here. You said, by the way, the phrase front of mind. Thank you for saying that. Maybe my least favorite entry into the corporate speak lexicon of the last 10 years is when we all started saying top of mind. That has to be top of mind for us going forward. Let's keep that top of mind for tomorrow's meeting. Top of mind sucks. And anyone who says it should have to go into a penalty box for five minutes. Okay, my next one. This might be tied with Ivy as my toughest. I have absolutely no idea what's going to happen in this one. I and that's Tari Eason with the Houston Rockets. I've said before that I think the reason the Durant extension isn't done is because they're waiting to do Eason's, which would seem to indicate that there's optimism. I think there is some optimism. I think the Rockets love Tar Eason. He's got a big role there. I do think Durant will get done, by the way, at some point. I don't know what the number is going to be. It's obvious going to be high. I think there will be a Durant deal. I have absolutely no feel for this. There are people around the league who are kind of surprised it's not done yet given how fast Jabari Smith Jr got done. I think Jabari Smith Jr was just a unique case of like, it's a lot of money. Let's lock it in. We like you, you like me. Tar Eason. Look, I'm president of the Tar Eason fan club. The guy has magnet hands. The ball just finds his hands. Like if there's a scrum for the ball, Tar Eason's getting it. The three pointer's been okay, 34.5% for his career. He's a bully, gets offensive rebounds, defends like all hell, terror twin number two. The whole thing has played 79 games combined the last two seasons after 82 as a rookie with some leg injuries. I guess I'm going to flip a coin here and go, yes, I could. I'm nervous about it. I'm going to go, yes. I just think again, given the injuries and the fact that the Rockets like him, I can see this coming in low 20s and everyone in the end being okay with that. I'm going to go, yes. I don't feel good, Fred. I don't feel good, Zach.
- [41:10]
B
I feel like such a Debbie downer. I feel like such a Debbie downer. I think, I think I'm gonna go no again.
- [41:17]
A
I like it. We disagree.
- [41:18]
B
I, I, I know. I just, I, I hate that I keep going no, because we never see this few rookie skill extensions. Like, there have been. How many of there actually been on the book so far? There's Jalen Williams, there's Jabari Smith, there's Chet, and there's Paolo, and that's it. And, like, if the rate that I keep saying is going, we're gonna get like a handful, and that's gonna.
- [41:38]
A
See, I, I could be, I could be very wrong. Very wrong. But there's a lot of pessimism in the league about, like, I don't know if any of you, like, I had people been. I don't know if any of these guys are going to get done because of this cab environment. Everyone's scared of the apron and this and that. I think we're gonna end up with more deadline buzzer beaters than people expect. But I, I could be like, we're gonna get to the end of this. And I think I'm six. Yes and six. No. That's way high. I bet the consensus around the league would be like, over. Under three and a half out of these 12 guys. I'm taking the over. But you're, you're going no ontarice. And that's fine. That's. I've looked.
- [42:13]
B
Yeah. Can I, can I, can I just say something real quick?
- [42:16]
A
So. No. Yes, of course.
- [42:17]
B
This is my favorite one. Tar Eason's my favorite one.
- [42:20]
A
He's been on. He's been top of mind for you the last few days.
- [42:23]
B
He's been top of mind. You know why? You know why? Top of mind is terrible. In front of mind is good because we say back of mind, and the opposite of back of mind is front of mind, not top of mind. If you say top of mind, then bottom of mind has to be a thing, and no one's ever said bottom mind, and that's why top of mind is terrible.
- [42:41]
A
I like that you actually went a little further and did some analysis on that.
- [42:44]
B
There you go. That's what I'm here for. I'm here for the analysis. I'm also here to talk about the Rockets cap situation. So just for the sake of it, let's just say Kevin Durant makes the max next year. I feel like an extension for him is probably going to come in a little bit less, but we don't know what it's going to be. So for the sake of argument, we'll say he makes a max number next year. That. That's 199 million on the books for the Rockets with players on the books for 20, 26, 27. It's right up against the luxury tax, which I think is projected at a shade under 202. If. If they give Eason $20 million, then we're talking about this team going into the second apron because Fred Van Vliet's picking up that player option now that he's done for the year. The other part of this is kind of a similar thing I mentioned with Detroit, which is I was more optimistic about Tari Eason. I was more optimistic about Tari Eason before Fred Van Vliet got hurt. Because if Houston feels like it is, like, not a stopgap point guard, but, like, a really good point guard, a legitimately good point guard away from the trade.
- [43:47]
A
He's the trade piece. You're right.
- [43:49]
B
He's. He's the guy. And they might want to keep their options open because that team is awesome.
- [43:56]
A
All right, I'm changing my. I'm changing my vote to no. I'm changing my vote to no. I forgot about the trade part. I'm changing my vote to no.
- [44:02]
B
There we go. That team is awesome. And. And while I feel the same way about Targ Easton as you do, he is just a monster. He's a monster in transition. He fits perfectly with their style. But, like, they have a bunch of guys who do that. They have Thompson and they have Jabari, and they have this onslaught of wings and size that's going to be able to hurt you. And if you feel like you're a point guard away, maybe he's the guy who ends up being in that deal. And. And so, just between the finances and. And. And the fact that they might be a really good point guard away from.
- [44:40]
A
Contention, I can't believe I forgot about. I can't believe I forgot about this trade angle since I did a podcast last week where, where I made, like, 15 fake Fred Van Vliet trades, half of which involved Tar eason.
- [44:51]
B
Zach, there's 900 things to remember on this. There's also 900 different elements.
- [44:56]
A
This front office has also been very willing to use every ounce of its leverage, and there is no greater source of leverage than restricted free agency in the NBA. So I'm officially in real time pivoting to a no. Ontarin which brings. Which will make me five yes, seven no. Okay, the Denver Nuggets have two guys and we're skipping Dale and Terry, too. Sorry, Dale and Terry. You're probably a very nice person. Go Bulls. Christian Brown, the 21st pick, and Peyton Watson, the 30th pick. Talk about a team that has to be careful about its finances. Vis a vis the apron and aprons. Going forward with Jokic, Murray Aaron Gordon's extension kicks in. Cam Johnson's got two years left on his relatively large contract. However, these two guys are not Kentavious, Caldwell Pope and Bruce Brown. These guys are young. They are drafted by the Nuggets. The Nuggets can pay them whatever they want. They could not pay Bruce Brown whatever they wanted. They are homegrown players. There is no one really waiting in the wings to replace either one of them. This is a situation that more than KCP and definitely more than Bruce Brown is a test of this ownership group. Like, are you actually serious about winning around Nikola Jokic for the next three or four years or are you going to cheap out and and just like let guys go? I am going to keep it short and sweet. I'm going a yes on Christian Brown. I think he is a winning player. The Nuggets know he's a winning player. He does a little bit of everything. The shots got improved, but he's going to work at it. I think it'll get to a point where it's workable. He's a fantastic fit with Jokic. Now I might be a fantastic fit with Jokic, but he's a really fantastic fit because of his speed, his transition game and all that. And again, I just can sense reasonable minds prevail. I'm going to predict something around $25 million a year. He's a Bill Duffy guy. Bill Duffy's a reasonable guy. I'm going to say 25 a year. And because I'm saying yes on Christian Brown, I'm saying no on Peyton Watson. Even though I think Peyton Watson's people are not going to come in with crazy demands like 20 million, 18 million. Look at the potential. Look at the shot blocking the corner. Three will come, we can make the case, blah, blah, blah. I think that probably a mid level ish deal is is possible. That could be agreed upon in theory. But if you're going to commit to Brown as priority number one, I'm going no on Watson just because it gets crazy expensive. We can Table that and figure out what to do with it. So, one yes for Denver, one no for Denver.
- [47:29]
B
I completely agree. I completely agree. Denver's. Denver's roster situation moving forward is expensive. But look, they let Kentavius Caldwell Pope walk because they wanted to give the job to Christian Brown, and I think it worked as well as it could have worked. Brown got way better last year. Led the league in fast break points. He was really good as a cutter next to Jokic. Those guys just communicate beautifully together without ever talking on the court. They just know what the other one's going to do. And there's no way to replace him. There's just no way to replace him. He is a really, really important guy for you, and I think you kind of just have to pay him. And I agree. I. So I texted. I texted. I just texted three people not involved in the Nuggets front office. Just like people who work in front offices around the league. And I just. I just wanted to ask them, like, what do you think is a fair number for Christian Brown? Just to get an idea. One person said four from 110. One person said four for 90. One person said four for 100. So that's basically a very similar range right in there. We're talking about 22 and a half million to 27 and a half million. So you're 25 million a year is right in the middle of that.
- [48:49]
A
Well, and again, like, it's a hundred million dollars. Like, I just think a lot of the money has gotten so big that even a lot of the sort of hardest core negotiating agents are like, yeah, we could hold out and, like, get 5, 150 after the season. They're offering you $100 million, and you're like a good young player who might be close to your ceiling. I just saying. Okay, one more guy.
- [49:16]
B
And the thing with Watson, by the way, is also, like, we concentrate. We talk so much about the aprons, the first apron, the second apron. Everybody wanted to avoid the first and the second apron. That's not necessarily why teams are just, like, breaking themselves down. Like, the Celtics were not necessarily breaking down just because of the second apron. It's also the repeater tax. Like, this current cba, the repeater tax is way harsher than it was before. And if you're going to get killed on the repeater tax, like, you need either an owner who is willing to just pay anything, or you need, I guess, a team that justifies it. Honestly, you probably need both. And so with the Nuggets, we haven't seen them want to pay that much money. And if you resign Watson like you're going to be in the tax next year, but in a couple years you're at risk of paying the repeater. And I just don't see this team paying the repeater necessarily. You're going to try to find a way at some point in the coming years in order to duck it so that you can get out of the repeater. And if you pay Watson less than the MLE paying $12 million, it might become really tough. It might become really tough. And you don't have picks moving forward to dump like Zeke Najee is the problem. Like your 2027 is off to OKC, your 2029 is off to OKC, your 232 is off to Brooklyn. So like, you don't necessarily have these picks that you can like attach to Zeke Najee in order to get off of seven and a half million dollars or attach to Peyton Watson if that deal ends up not necessarily being the best and you get off $12 million. Like you just, you can't do that. So you have to be more conservative with these, these contracts you're you're handing out.
- [51:04]
A
You also have to hold out the possibility that like Julian Strother becomes good and reliable this year. Daron Holmes, who missed the entire last season with an injury, like they really like him. He could be a good piece going forward. Zeke Najee having a player option for almost $8 million in 27, 28 is like, how did, how did that happen? That's crazy. Yeah. Okay, last one. Nikola Jovic, Miami Heat. I'm a believer. I think he's a good player. Has shot 37% on threes for his career after shooting 23% as a rookie. So he shot very well the last two years. I think it has a little bit of everything. He's got a chance to start this year. In fact, I would nerf gun to my head predict he starts at the four next to bam. Hero's injury is throwing everything into, into flux. This again is a reasonable minds prevail kind of thing. The Heat don't have any reason to hold onto his cap hold, which is pretty cheap. 13 million, they're not going to have cap room either way. I could see something in the range of 3 years. 54 years, 60. Mid level. Ish, a lot of money. Guy hasn't proven too much. He's played 15, 46 and 46 games in his career, spent time out of the rotation. They like him. I, I think I'm going Yes. On Nicola, which, yeah, I think, I.
- [52:25]
B
Think that makes sense. If I'm the Heat, I agree. I'm going to go yes, too. If I'm the Heat, I'm probably doing whatever I can. In order to start him at less than next year's projected MLE, which is $15.1 million, just in case you have to move him, because that allows you to move him into, you know, the mle, which can now be a trade exception. So if you start him at 15.1, let's say that brings the four year deal to about 67 million. And I, I think that starting number, I bet, I bet the Heat do whatever they can and they say and just, just to make sure that they can get him under that 15.1. And I, I feel like that's probably a good starting point for him. He's had some injuries, too. He had the back injury earlier in his career. Last year was flukish. He had a hand. He had a hand fracture. I think it was at the end of the season. But I, I think that he'd do what they can in order to make it happen. He's going to start you once again. You kind of have to protect against the possibility of him getting really good. He has these stretches every year where you're like, damn, this guy is showing flashes. He is showing flashes as a passer. He is showing flashes in the post. He's showing flashes of what he can do with the ball, like he's got size. Like, this is a guy who's shown flashes and you want to protect against the possibility that he gets more responsibilities and he has a glow up and you get to restricted free agency and you're like, damn. Well, now we got to pay him way more than the MLE. We got to pay him 25. We got to pay him what we were talking about for Keegan Murray or something like that. And, you know, that's something that you might want to get done.
- [54:00]
A
People are starting to say, Fred, that I'm. I'm showing flashes in the kitchen, showing some flashes. Cooked a good tofu dish a couple weeks ago. There's a mean apple crumb recipe in my repertoire. People are starting to talk in the neighborhood. Zach Lowe, showing some flashes.
- [54:14]
B
You're in your Eat, Pray, Love phase.
- [54:16]
A
But, but the transition from showing flashes to being reliable cook is the biggest leap in the kitchen game. And I'm just still showing flashes. Okay, to review, let's see if I can remember everything correctly. Keegan Murray, we are. Yes, yes. Jaden Ivy, we are. No. No. Jaylen Duran. I am. Yes. You are. No. Benedict Matherin. We are. No. No. Jeremy Sohan. We are. No. No. Mark Williams. We are. No. No. Tari Eason. We are. No. No. I changed my vote to no. Christian Brown. Yes. Yes. Peyton Watson. No. No. Shade and Sharp. I believe we were both no.
- [54:54]
B
Yeah.
- [54:55]
A
On Shade and sharp. Dyson Daniels. Were we both yes.
- [54:58]
B
Yes.
- [54:59]
A
Nikola Jovich. We were both yes.
- [55:02]
B
Yes.
- [55:03]
A
So we really only disagreed on one in the end after I switched my vote to Tar Eason. No.
- [55:09]
B
Or an amenable guy.
- [55:11]
A
Fred, Cats of the Athletic and the Cats and Shoot podcast. What do we got coming from you? What do you want to promote?
- [55:16]
B
You can subscribe to my podcast, Cats and Shoot. Patreon.
- [55:20]
A
The subscribe button is now what the kids say, like the subscribe button.
- [55:24]
B
I hate it when people say that. Why do I want anyone to break their computer? Press it responsibly and don't ruin your keyboard. But it's patreon.com cats and shooting. Or you can just look out for my work at. At the Athletic. I got, I got some stuff coming up this week on Story. 10 preseason storylines I'm looking forward to following or not. Preseason storylines, 10 storylines I'm looking forward to following. 5 East, 5 West this upcoming season. And you know, I got Knicks piece out now and you can check that all out there.
- [55:56]
A
Are you, are you saying 10 things, some of which you like, some of which you don't like. Fred Katz.
- [56:01]
B
No, Zach, I would never, I would never rip you off. I only rip you off in my Friday Notebook column, which is normally just three things of random observations.
- [56:14]
A
Fred Katz, you're the best. Be safe. I'll see you probably at the world's most famous arena pretty soon.
- [56:19]
B
Definitely.
- [56:22]
A
All right. This is going to be a thrill, welcoming in a wordsmith of the first order, both in print and on stage, one of the funniest human beings walking the planet. Stand up comedian. You know him from his special the Great Depress. He's on a tour called Grand Eloquent right now. I've seen it in New York. It's coming up in Boston and in Philly. You got to go see it. It's a must watch. He's the author of this book, Misfit. See the basketball on the COVID We're going to get to that. Gary Goleman, what a pleasure. How are you?
- [56:53]
C
Oh, an honor. I'm, I'm terrific. How are you feeling?
- [56:57]
A
I'm great. I'm getting ready for the season. Unfortunately for your Boston Celtics. I think it's going to be a little bit of a gap year. Have you recovered from the. Jayson Tatum, you are from Peabody, Massachusetts. You are a tried and true Celtics fan. Have you recovered from the Tatum injury yet? Are you going to check out this year? How are you approaching this season?
- [57:15]
C
I'm. I mean, it was. It was devastating just to see such a young, gifted player have to exit the playoffs and take a year off. But I'm so grateful for this team that we've gotten to watch. Brown and Tatum and Peyton Pritchard and Al Horford and all these guys just grow with this team. It's been. It's been really special. So I, I feel like after a championship, I always feel like we're playing with. With house money. I'm not, I'm not a greedy fan that we need to repeat or anything like that. Gap year is a good way to put it. But I do remember a really satisfying season in Tatum's rookie year where we lost Kyrie and we lost Gordon Hayward in the very first game of the. Of the season. And it was honestly one of the most exciting, fun seasons to watch. And so I'm looking at it in. In. In that way that this, this could perhaps be a season where we get to see some guys really come into their own and improve, and then you get Tatum back next year and perhaps we win another championship or make a long playoff run. So I'm very. I'm. I'm grateful for this team. And they've, They've already. By winning a championship, they've done everything you can really expect of a. Of a young team. And so I, I think that's the healthiest approach. As you know, Boston fans are never satisfied. We were sp with the Red Sox and then the New England Patriots and, And they feel like any team that doesn't win a championship is a. Is a grave disappointment. So I'm, I'm excited for the season and I just. I love watching the NBA and, and it's such a great time to be an NBA fan. So I'm, I'm. I'm excited.
- [59:03]
A
So it's. You mentioned the 1718 Celtics who take the Cavs to game. The LeBron Cavs. The last LeBron Cavs to game seven of the Eastern Conference finals without Kyrie Irving, without Gordon Hayward. Scary. Terry big part of that team was.
- [59:16]
C
Was incredible on that team and, And Tatum. I, I don't think if there had been the injuries that Tatum would have progressed as fast as he did. So it was actually a I won't call it a blessing in disguise, but it was, it was a nice way to, to welcome a rookie to the NBA.
- [59:32]
A
Now, a lot of your work in the past four to five years has, has sort of flowed out from your battles with severe depression and anxiety. You named your, your special award winning, I don't even know how many aw. A lot of awards. It was hbo, right? The Great Depression was about your recovery from that. This book, Misfit the 1718 Celtics, come up in this book because that is happening as you have retreated to live with your mother in your childhood home. Because you just can't like, cope with your life. You can't get on stage. Like your life has sort of hit this pause button. You don't know what else to do except sort of retreat to this place that is also the place where a lot of these anxieties and stuff sort of manifested themselves in you. But you write in the book about the joy of watching that Celtics team helping you sort of pull out of it a little bit. So. And basketball is a through line in your life. It's. It's a source of happiness for you. But that specific team at that specific time meant something deeper to you, I think, than just like, oh, this is fun with these rookies.
- [60:40]
C
No. 100%. There was a time when I moved back home where I was struggling to leave the house. And I happened to have a friend who I'd been friends with since 5th grade, my friend Billy Marmion. And he would invite me over. He had bought his mom's house and expanded, and he lived there with his daughter and his fiance. And so we would watch the Celtics and we watched Gordon Hayward go down that first. We just watched every game at his house. He was in transition too. He had gone back to law school after being in education for a while. And so we would convene every night. Some nights we wouldn't say much more than nice play and some brief exchanges. We would just watch the game. And it was so important for me to be out of the house. And also. And then as the season, it was interesting because as the season progressed, I started to feel better and started to do standup again. And it was just. It was. I mean, it was the best of times, it was the worst of times. It was. It was really important to my recovery to be able to have a place to go where somebody didn't expect me to do much talking, but. But was there for me to help me get out of the house and be a member of society again. And to convene over basketball, which was something that I started playing when I was 9 or 10 years old and was another aspect of just me maintaining my mental health. Because, you know, basketball is such a community event and you're playing with other players and it gets you out of your head. And then even when you're practicing by yourself, it's very Zen. And so to this day, I play five, six times a week, either by myself or with friends and it's just very therapeutic. And luckily basketball is also a sport. Unlike football and baseball, where you can play well, I guess you could play softball, but you can play into your 60s, 70s. There are guys who play for their entire lives. Basketball is such an important aspect of my life, both watching and playing. And I'm really grateful.
- [63:03]
A
Both this book misfit and your grandiloquent tour especially. It's. It's a, it's a what, almost 90 minutes, one man show. What do I call. I don't even know what to call it. It's not a stand up special. Or is it. I don't know. It's a, it's a one man show kind of.
- [63:19]
C
Yeah, it's, it's funny for a play, but also some, some heavy moments in it. So I think that's what makes it different from the traditional standup show where I look out in the audience at one point and there are people with tears in their eyes, there are people who are crying, but you saw it. I think it's very funny and at times hilarious, but it's also a little bit heavy. So it's in the tradition of the one person show, but by a person who's done a lot of standup. I'm coming up on 32 years in, in this game. So that, that's. I, I've developed certain, certain skills and.
- [64:03]
A
I will, I will promote this again, but grandiloquent. You can go to garygoleman.com and buy tickets. You can probably buy tickets other ways. This, I bought tickets. This way is coming to Boston, your Hometown Shubert Theater, October 25, and then Philly twice at three times at the Kimmel center for the performing arts on November 14th and 15th. Two shows on the 15th. Go buy tickets. It is awesome. It is moving and you do hear the different reactions throughout the crowd as it has a beautiful set. Are you taking that set with you to other places?
- [64:34]
C
I can't afford to take the set. I'm taking props and perhaps my outfit, which was sort of a professor type of.
- [64:44]
A
I was gonna say professorial.
- [64:46]
C
Yeah, professorial. With a blazer and things. But the set was beautiful and hopefully we'll be able to use it for. If we make it into a special a film.
- [64:55]
A
But.
- [64:56]
C
But the set would. It would. I wouldn't make a dollar, so.
- [65:00]
A
Well, both. What I was gonna say is both the tour, both the show and this book are. Are largely about your childhood as a precocious, perhaps witty, but also anxious, struggling to fit in child in Peabody, Massachusetts. And. And all the ways that you sort of tried to find your place in life as a writer, as a comic fan, and I didn't. And basketball is a through line through all of it in terms of trying to find your place. So I think all basketball fans would like it in that regard. But yeah, let's just go right. Like, I. You're about five years older than me. I related like, offline. We really need to have more of a conversation because we're so similar and our experiences are so similar in so many different, almost bizarrely specific ways that we like the anxiety, having a big nose, what we did on our sick days. From school. Like, you talk about being home from school and watching the Price is Right and eating Cinnamon Life cereal. Use the word, by the way. People don't realize, like, the comedians are like a plus plus plus writers. Like, you are 1,000 times a better writer than I am. You use the word tenderize to describe the process of having your Cinnamon Life tiles soak up just enough of the milk to be ready to eat. It's exactly what I would do when I was home from school. The Price is right from 11 to 12 was the highlight of any sick day. And with different kinds of cereal, Cinnamon Life being one of the Mount Rushmores of cereal. I prefer Cookie Crisp, but Cookie Crisp was so decadent that it could not be an everyday cereal.
- [66:50]
C
No, you're absolutely right. My mother was. Was very stingy with the. With the Cookie Crisp as well as the Frosted Mini Wheats. Those were. Those were treats. But Cinnamon Life seemed to. And it. And it had just as much sugar as most modern cereals. But somehow Cinnamon Life, it tricked people. It tricked people into thinking that it was really healthy. And it was. It was just a sugary, cinnamony cereal, but it was good, man.
- [67:14]
A
Now, did you have a favorite pricing game on the Price is Right? A game that they would break out every once in a while. You'd be like, this is a great episode of the Price Is Right.
- [67:23]
C
Oh, yeah, of course. These, these Swiss Alps hiker.
- [67:26]
A
That's mine too. I'm telling you, this is crazy. And then he falls off.
- [67:35]
C
Oh, my gosh. And I. I can count on one finger how many times I saw somebody win it. That was a very challenging. That was a very challenge. That was no Plinko. That was a challenging game. Although I loved Plinko.
- [67:48]
A
Plinko was always. Plinko was the Showstopper. Like, when you got Plinko, it was like, this is a big. A big day on the prices, right? But the Swiss Alps guy, I'm sure it had a name that. That. Like some sort of name. Maybe our producers can look it up for us as we go. I don't even know how. They're younger than us. They probably don't even know what the hell we're.
- [68:04]
C
Right. No, that was okay.
- [68:07]
A
So this book, which I was. I read about a year too late after it came out. It took me a while to get to it, but I got to it. And the best comp. The two best compliments I give this book, and I would say I already said this to my wife. So it's like, not just because you're on the show. It's called Misfit right here. Number one, it almost reads like a novel in that you become a protagonist that the reader is cheering for. And you. Sometimes it's so detailed and your memory is so specific of these years. You write about each elementary school grade, and then each middle school and high school grade is a chapter. I wonder if you had journals or diaries that you. Or photos that you go back to. Because it's so specific that it does at times read like a novel. Like, you're setting scenes, you're describing. You describe this incredible marriage rehearsal dinner where you're so miserable to be there that you take a nap behind a couch and you set these scenes. It reads like a novel. Like, did you have stuff to draw from?
- [69:09]
C
Yes, in that I've been telling a lot of these stories since they happened. And I have a mind that, for better or worse, ruminates over. Over tough times, trauma, but also over. Over great times. So I think a lot about certain events in my childhood. And I have this habit of whenever something exciting or awful would happen, I would think, oh, I'll never forget this. And also, there's this thing where you grow up and maybe you had this experience where you read a lot of sports biographies. So I would read Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell, Roberto Clemente and Ted Williams and anything I could get my hands on about sporting figures. And so I understood how books worked, and I always wanted to be a writer. And so I would collect things that I would think later on would, would be helpful for a book. And it's a, it's a little bit insane to think that there's going to be a book about your life. But I just, I also knew I wanted to be a comedian, so I would, I would save funny stories. And so that was, that was helpful. And also just, I guess my, my memory is, is a blessing and a curse because I, I can draw on these things at, at any time and they can affect my mood from time to time. But as I started to feel better, they became something that I had some, some objectivity about and some perspective and some distance. So it was helpful. But also while I was writing this, I'm also in, in therapy once a week and I would bring up some of these, some of these subjects with my therapist and, and it was really therapeutic to, to write this and go over certain things that, that have had an effect on my life. So I, I, it was really a great opportunity at the right time when I was feeling well enough that this, that writing a book can be a burden and something that you dread. But it was actually for the most part a very positive experience. The other thing is that I had a really good editor in, in Will Schwalbe at, at Random House, and he was able to, along with. I read a lot of books about writing memoirs. So him and the books I read were really helpful in figuring out how to tell the most compelling stories in the best ways. I mean, the main thing with, with writing film or novels and memoirs that you don't want to tell people, you want to show people. And so you try to build scenes that are, that are almost cinematic in their, in their description. And I've found that there are, there are certain things that make you sound evocative or, or that, that put people in the place that you are. And it's usually smells and certain sounds can, can translate to people understanding where you're, where you're coming from. And that's what I tried to do in, in most of the scenes in the book. Sometimes you just can't get past having to tell people because you're doing exposition. But that was, that was basically my strategy when I was, when I was writing it. And I really appreciate those compliments.
- [72:22]
B
It's.
- [72:22]
A
So the other one, the other one I'm going to give you and then we're going to dissect a couple of things in here is a lot of comedian. Not a lot, but there are some comedian books that come out when comedians are at the height of their fame or whatever, and the book is just basically their bits written in print. And this is. This is not that at all. It's almost the opposite in that the seeds of some of your more famous bits are in here, and they come up, and then you don't write the bit at all. You write something completely different. Was that a conscious thing for you? Of, like, I don't want to just do the thing where people buy this book and it's like, oh, I'm just reading the same bit that I already saw, 100%.
- [73:06]
C
I got burned. I think in 93 or 94. I bought. I bought Jerry Seinfeld sign language.
- [73:11]
A
That's the one. That's the one.
- [73:13]
C
And it was just his act. And I was. I was outraged because it was a lot of. It was a lot of money for somebody just out of college. And I just. I. And I was only doing open mics at the time, but I said, if I ever write a book, I'm not just typing up my act. It's too easy. And also, I feel like, as a. As a fan, I would. I would feel cheated. So that. That was a. That was a conscious effort that I didn't want people to be let down when they read the book and say, oh, it's just his act. And. And also, you need to push yourself a little bit creatively. So that was the. That was the. The thinking behind that.
- [73:52]
A
As an ex, as just one example you have in one of your specials. I don't remember which one. Or maybe it's just a performance that I saw you talk about your illustrious college football career at Boston College. And you. When football comes up in this book, Misfit, I. I expected, like, again, my. My reflexes. I've heard this story before, and it goes completely sideways. And you talk about these twin brothers, the Jetsons, in the book, which literally, I was laughing out loud at almost every quote from one or both of the Jetsons. And you have never mentioned them to mine. Maybe I missed it, but I don't remember them being any part of your act. And. And your football is. The career is completely different in this book than it is in. In real life. The Jetsons are just incredible.
- [74:37]
C
Yeah, they're. They were these twin brothers, and they were. They were just like. They looked like superheroes in their build. They were so ripped. And they plucked me out of a gym class where they had seen me dunk a basketball, and they said, you should play football. And I remember even saying to them, I hate to break it to you, but I'm not. I'm. I'm a soft basketball player. I don't like.
- [75:00]
A
Pacifist.
- [75:01]
C
Yeah, I don't like to mix it up, down low. And they, they trained me all summer and they, they changed my life. And. And so I went from having never played football to getting a. A scholarship to Boston College. But I.
- [75:15]
A
It's.
- [75:16]
C
It's been difficult over the years to talk a lot about sports on, on stage because it's, it's something that we don't look at sports the same way as other people do, and that we take it very seriously. We don't find the absurdity in it. And it wasn't until, I guess, the Great Depression where I started talking about basketball on stage and how it was the perfect sport for somebody who was a pacifist and also was lonely, so that I had this joke where I said, you can tell, you. Can you tell me a high school shooter's free throw percentage? And I can tell you what time his single mother got home from work. I, I felt that. I felt that the, the free throw shooting percentage was a direct. Was in direct proportion to the childhood loneliness. So that those were types of things and they, and it turns out they, they resonated. So I, I feel really comfortable doing sports jokes now, whereas that was a difficult needle to thread when I was coming up. But, yeah, I just didn't want people to read the book and feel like they had been taken or paid twice for the same joke. And also, when you challenge yourself that way, your creativity comes through. So I hope you're going to write a book soon because I love reading everything you've.
- [76:43]
A
It seems like too much work, frankly.
- [76:45]
C
It's. It's a few hours a day, but consistently. And it's really satisfying and your audience will love it. I, I was talking with my friend Josh Gondelman, another comedian and writer.
- [76:59]
A
I know Josh.
- [77:00]
C
Yeah. And we were talking about how excited we were when you announced last summer that you were coming back on the podcast. I mean, we really needed it because it was. We had really missed you. Seriously.
- [77:13]
A
You like that model of joke, by the way, the sort of proportion. Proportion comparison. I don't know what. Because you have a couple of different versions of it in the book about how I'm gonna get it wrong. And again, your words are very important to you. I don't want to mess them up. But do you have one line? It's like your place on any given basketball team. You're like, place in the Hierarchy was proportional to how much of the Torah everyone else on the team had read. Like the more Torah reading. The worst basketball player. They were something like that.
- [77:43]
C
Yeah.
- [77:44]
A
You have. You have a moment in here where you play high school basketball. And by this point in the book, you've talked about how basketball gave you a sense of a belonging, of confidence, of stability, how you would go to the same public park almost every day of your life once you met both the people who brought you to the park and saw the park itself and how important it was to you. And then you play in high school. And this, this moment, like, broke my heart. And I have my own version of it that I'm going to get to. But you talk about the. I think it's the end of your freshman season, maybe your sophomore season. You haven't gotten along great with the coach. Coach Bitter, I think his name is like. Is that his real name?
- [78:22]
C
No, it's a pseudonym. I had to change it because he was. He was such an awful human being. And just the. Some coaches wanted to be Bob Knight, but they didn't have that thing about Bob Knight where he actually made you a better basketball player by teaching you basketball. And this guy just wanted to be mean and had some sort of thing in his background where he wanted to be cruel to young people. And it was one of the worst experiences of. Of my life. Luckily, I had coaches in. In football and lacrosse who were very kind and. And made me better. Better people, better person and a better athlete. But this man was just. He didn't know much about basketball. He just had the mean streak.
- [79:03]
A
And that's just the moment you get to the end of the year and you talk about how a bunch of the starters are graduating and so you're hoping for a bigger role the following year. And I guess it's your version of an exit meeting at the banquet with this coach, he says, while smiling, he put his arm over my shoulder and told me, and at this point, you're building up to a moment where he's going to tell you next year is big year for you. You know you're going to be. And he says, don't you write it in a Boston accent. Don't bother coming back next year if you're still a fucking P word. And you said, my mouth was burlap. My smile was gone. Basketball. My love had rejected me via this gargoyle in khakis. Beautiful. It was April. I wouldn't touch a basketball again until July 5th. First time I'd gone even two days without basketball since fifth grade, I needed a new love. And I bring that up because some people in positions of authority as coaches and teachers don't understand the power that their words can have over someone at a particular age. That feels to me like a seminal moment for you and like in a very, very bad way.
- [80:16]
C
Yeah. I mean, there's a version. And what happened was I, I just, I got discouraged and I moved on. And I wish I, I wish I had been a little bit stronger at that point where I could have used it as fuel like so many players did. But I wasn't. I wasn't strong enough. I wasn't. And I also didn't have. My dad didn't live with us, and my brothers were, were not great role models in, in terms of. They didn't spend a lot of time talking to me. And so, and so I never really talked.
- [80:49]
A
They're much older than you two, to be fair.
- [80:51]
C
Yeah, they're 10 years and 13 than me. So I just didn't have a lot of great male figures in my life who I could even go to and say, this guy said this thing and how should I proceed? And so that, that was. I, I, I regret let. Letting somebody have an effect on, on my love of basketball. But in, in some ways, yeah, it, it, it wrecked my, my affection for it and it, it made me very sad and it was, it was, it crushed me. Yeah.
- [81:21]
A
I'm going to give you my moment like that, which is much less serious.
- [81:27]
C
Okay.
- [81:27]
A
And did not affect my life that much. Although it did scar me to the point that I remember it vividly to this day. Eighth grade, Spanish with Mrs. Romero. I'm not going to protect Mrs. Romero. She might be dead. I don't know. As you said about one of your teachers in the, in the, in one of your bits. I will protect her no longer. 8th grade. Very fraught period in any person's life.
- [81:54]
C
Oh my word.
- [81:55]
A
I was a very confident elementary school student. Fifth grade, I've often joked I was. The fifth grade was the coolest I ever was. That was. I was top of the school. The prettiest girl in the school told people that she liked me. I couldn't pull it off. I did. I couldn't act on that. But that was the peak of my coolness. Middle school, you get thrown in to this just like maelstrom of puberty and older kids and bigger kids from different schools. It's like quadruple the size. There are mean kids, there are bullies. Suddenly you're not that cool anymore. Very fraught period. And my confidence just went down the drain. Just people were dressing nicely, and I was used to wearing, like, sweatpants and sports T shirts to school every day. And that wasn't cool. Just a fraud time. So eighth grade Spanish with Mrs. Romero, a little troll of a woman, frankly. We're learning body parts and we're doing the face. We're doing nose, ears, eyes, hair. And this woman says, let's go around the room and see who has notable ears or noses or whatever. And she points to me, she says, basically says, zacaria. That was my name in Spanish. Yeah, tiene naris grande. And there's like some laughter around the room. I try to laugh it off as, like, I don't really care. There's some murmuring from the mature kids who are like, I don't think that was appropriate. And then she moved on and probably spotlit some other people. Maybe it was a compliment that she thought I could take it. But in my insecure head, I was like, this is all I'm going to be thinking about for the rest of the week. These people laughed at me. And you, Spanish teacher pointed out, yeah, I have a big nose. I don't care anymore. At that point, like, it was like one of the top three concerns of my life at that point. And so Mrs. Romero, that, that hurt me. And I can remember exactly where I was sitting. Front desk. I know, sitting next to me. Ian McAleer was sitting next to me, front desk to her right, front row. And I was like, I can't believe she just did that. And it was. When you, when you read that in New York, you're in high school and it's a sport that meant something to you is the, I'm not comparing the emotional resonance, but that, like, hurt my.
- [84:05]
C
Soul, of course, because we're, we're so insecure at that age, especially the, the big nosed among us. I mean, I, I, I didn't feel very good about my nose until Adrien Brody won the Oscar for the, for the Pianist. And I, and I thought, wow, this guy is kissing Halle Berry and his nose is, is just as big as mine. And, and so my life was, I would basically try to keep the ball player, the ball handler in front of me, basically by always keeping my nose. I didn't want anybody to see my profile. So when I would talk to anyone that I, a young woman that I liked, I would try to keep her from getting a shot of my profile because I felt that from the front on, you couldn't tell how, how Much bigger. And also, I had not yet filled out. And that was probably the case with you, where the nose just stood out like a. Like a sundial.
- [85:04]
A
Another. I just. I've never told this story. It's not that great of a story, but it's a funny story. And again, like, the similarity struck me. You have. I don't remember exactly, but somewhere in the book, you have a. An aside about shouting, I think, in your bedroom, worms, that. Words that rhymed with truck or something, And. And. And worrying that you accidentally dropped an F bomb in the words that rhymed with truck and you were gonna get in trouble for it. So the most mortifying thing that happened to my mother when I was a child. I was probably, like, three, and she was taking me Christmas shopping at Caldor's back in the day. And all. All I wanted was a Tonka truck. Yeah, like one of the Tonka construction trucks. She tells this story to this day is, like, the most mortifying thing that ever happened to her. And. But I have trouble, like, saying my Rs at that age, particularly when I got excited. And so we're going the way she tells it. I don't remember this. Obviously, we're going down the aisle in Caldor is where the Tonka trucks are. And at the end of the aisle, I see the Caldor's Santa getting, like, walking by, getting into position, and I start yelling to Santa, Santa, I want a truck. Truck. Santa, truck. And then I get so excited that I start saying, santa, I want to fuck. Fuck Santa. I want to fuck Santa. And my mom is sitting there in the aisle being like, my child is saying, f you, Santa. So I just had to tell that story. She tells that story to this day.
- [86:35]
C
That is a great story. Oh, my God.
- [86:38]
A
All right, some comedy talk. You have several, like, very, very famous extended bits. People probably have seen the state abbreviations bit. It's very famous. The Trader Joe's incident at Trader Joe's is incredibly famous and so evocative of New York City, much like a concert band. Have you retired those? Like, when. When will you ever break? Are there occasions where you will perform them again ever, or are they just. You can't do them anymore?
- [87:10]
C
I mean, I. Part of it is that I don't. I don't think music and comedy work the same because a song resonates in a way, and you want to hear it again, and you want to hear a live version. But with comedy, they know all the beats. And so I've. I've told certain stories, and then I try to tell them again and maybe they enjoy it, but they don't laugh like they did the first time. And so it's a little bit humbling. And so I'm reluctant to tell those stories. And sometimes I will do a request, especially if there's somebody that I know, or sometimes a parent will bring their child and the parent will let me know over Instagram or when I get to the show, that their kid loves this certain bit. So one time I did the Abbreviating the States joke in Oklahoma City and there was an 11 year old boy in the audience who knew every word. And so I had him play the Dottie character in it. And that was very fun and it brought a different vibe to it. So situations like that are very fun. And also I have friends who will call me and they have friends over. And my friend Todd Glass once called me and he said, I've got a bunch of young comedians over for a podcast. They want you to do the Abbreviating the States. Do you mind? And I happen to be in the right mood and I just did it over the phone and he always tells me that was one of their favorite moments in comedy. So things like that. But for the most part, unfortunately, once I put a joke on, on a special, I try not to do it anymore because I, I've, I've heard that audiences are less likely to return to see a comedian who they're, they're afraid will do the same jokes again. They don't. They need to save their money. So I, I understand that my favorite.
- [89:10]
A
Part of the Trader Joe's thing, and anyone who hasn't seen it needs to go to YouTube immediately, is the simplest part, which is a woman, an entitled shopper, cuts you in line and then goes back to shop for like an extended period of time and then thinks that she can reclaim her spot in front of you in line. And then you, you try to actually rectify that and get in front of her and she looks at you and I knew exactly what was coming, but it was still funny. You, you lead up to it by saying, she said these two words to me and I knew what they were going to be. Yeah, no, and I just like the way you said it. Yeah, no. Why? How did that become. Yeah, no a part of our language, but it is a part. It is a part of. Yeah, no is a part of our language. And you just nail that completely. And the other thing I will say, you have a famous Chipotle bit that I can't look at. Chipotle anymore without thinking of you miming the rude customer, pointing down, corn, Corn. And you say, they know where to find the corn.
- [90:11]
C
Oh, thanks. Yeah. I mean, these things are just. They're the product of being a really irritable, sensitive person. So the. Yeah, no, was something that I'd written for. I took a lot of acting classes in Los Angeles when I lived there, and so we had to make short films. And I wrote this short film in which one of the characters who was an actress in the film, she, she started every sentence with, yeah, no. And I never found a place for that in my act until I had this incident at Trader Joe's. Nobody saw the short film, so I didn't feel bad about using it again, but it was just something that had. And this was, I guess, 2005 that I did that short film. And then in 2013, I think, or a little bit sooner, I had that experience of Trader Joe's and the woman said the exact thing that I had written for this other woman. And it was just this perfect thing where I got to be truthful to the situation and then also analyze this expression that I found very irritating. And the main reason I find certain expressions irritating is that they become ubiquitous and everybody's using them, and it's just like, oh, another person who's going to start a sentence with at the end of the day? It was, it was compelling the first couple of times, but now it's just, it's such a clam to me. It's so hackneyed that it, that it, I find it viscerally irritating.
- [91:51]
A
As you say the word hackneyed. I, I, I, I'm a, I'm a little bit of a comedy file. Although I haven't followed this particular thing as closely because it seems so radioactive to me that I almost don't want to get too deep into it. But Marc Maron just went on this sort of, like, scorched earth tour about hackneyed comedy and political comedy and cancel culture being a fake thing. And now we have this, this Jimmy Kimmel thing that happened. I just wonder, as a fan of whatever the politics, you can get into it if you want, but as a fan of, of comedy and the art of comedy and writing comedy, did you pay attention to Marc Marin's sort of tour of, like, let's, let's actually deconstruct how some of these comics are either attacking or ignoring some of these issues and, like, saying it kind of confrontationally to their faces?
- [92:44]
C
Yes, yes, I followed that. And I'm a listener to Mark's wtf? And all along, this, this whole cancel culture and we can't say anything anymore. My. Especially my friend Todd Glass. But a lot of other comedians, we would talk about, all right, these words that you're so precious about losing and this idea of being able to do these racist, stereotypical put downs. All right, they. If you don't want to not do it because it's offensive and it's punching down, then please don't do it because it's been done to death. You're not breaking any new ground. These stereotypes have been around since literally for two centuries. And so please, just as an artist, please do not use these jokes that are so old. It's like that scene from Seinfeld where the anti dentite word where the person asked, jerry, Jerry, are you, are you offended as a Jew by these jokes? And he says, no, it offends me as a comedian. So I, I, you can say whatever you want. Fine. But. But please at least be original and, and stop using jokes that I heard don Rickles tell 40 years ago. It's, it's just hacky. And it's, it's, it offends me as an artist.
- [94:18]
A
All right, let's, let's talk some hoops. You were mentioning that you were recently watching the 1981 Eastern Conference finals between the Celtics and the Sixers, and it spurred some thoughts about the evolution of basketball inside. You get them off now.
- [94:31]
C
Okay. My friend Jimmy Penneteri, Boston College, class of 1993, he played with Billy Curley and Howard Isley.
- [94:42]
A
Wow.
- [94:43]
C
Malcolm Huckabee and those. Gerard Abram on just a great team. And so he's, he's really a basketball aficionado from both sides playing in and watching. So he came to visit this summer and I, I saved these hardwood classics so that we can watch on NBA TV. And it happened to be the 81 Celtics Sixers, Game 7 of the Eastern Conference finals. The Celtics had come back from a 3:1 deficit. They were at home. And we remembered it was a very exciting game, but here's what we had forgotten. That the defense would pack it into the lane and literally give you. At one point, Nate Tiny Archibald walked into a 15 footer because they were so afraid of getting burnt down low that they just packed it in and hoped that, that the person would miss from 15ft. And in the, the sort of crescendo of the game, the Celtics, I think, went up one on, on a Larry Bird bank shot from the left side. And then the Sixers had another Opportunity to, to score. Dr. J wound up with it on the left wing, 11ft from the, from the hoop and instead of knocking down a jumper and they had sloughed off, they were not in his face at all. He passed it into the lane and it got stolen. And that's not how the game ended. But eventually the Sixers weren't able to score again if I remember correctly. And it just, it was such a completely different game and they just. I think one three pointer was made that game by Chris Board. I think, I don't think Larry took any three pointers and it was just such a different game. And I have to be honest, not as compelling a game and not as, not as skilled of a game. And they played great defense but I don't think it was any better or more hard nosed than they play than they play now, especially in the playoffs. I mean you can't imagine anybody getting a mid range open look in the, in the playoffs. And this was game seven. So it just, it was really illuminating because over the years I've just been so irritated by the old heads and the Gen X people saying that the game was better in the 80s and I just found the games where they would, the 88, 89 season where they would just hack Michael Jordan in the playoffs and he wouldn't be able to get off shots. That was not very compelling to me. And as a person who understands how difficult it is to make long shots with somebody in your face, I'm just blown away by the talent in the 2000 and 20s and this modern type of basketball. And also you didn't really have a European element so you didn't have that style playing. And it was just. I'm nostalgic about it but I could not watch that style of basketball with the same excitement that I watch now. It's just evolved like everything else like comedy, Comedy has become more natural and people are more skilled and. And so I'm, I'm. I'm not surprised that that basketball isn't any different.
- [98:05]
A
So the what the one you just mentioned, hard nose defense, the one sort of yelling at clouds thing that has, it's kind of petered out. Old man yelling at cloud is the idea that NBA players don't try on defense. That's never been true NBA. I mean it's obviously in the regular season, it's a different level of intensity than the playoffs but NBA defense over now you have to guard the entire half court. It's extremely, extremely fatiguing. It requires incredible mental alertness as well as physical stamina. And I don't hear that complaint you still hear like throw it into the post and there are too many threes. And actually there are fruitful discussions to be had there. It just jumped into my mind because I was watching a little film yesterday of Mitchell Robinson and Carl Anthony Towns playing together for the Knicks last year. Because I think the Knicks are leaning towards starting that lineup instead of starting a smaller lineup. And I was like, let me just go back and see how this worked. And the number one thing I realized was Mitchell Robinson has never played as hard in his entire life as he played in the playoffs against the Indiana Pacers. The sheer exertion to get from point A to point B with a gigantic body was what it leaped off the film. Like this guy who has never been known for playing super duper hard, who's always been sort of an NBA enigma, is out there playing like his life depends on the outcome of this game. And it's Mitchell Robinson. Like the, the effort level narrative is kind of vanished. And, and I think rightfully so.
- [99:37]
C
Yeah, I mean he was inspired in the, in the playoffs and, and just. And the, the. I remember the analytics just really standing out for, for somebody who, who didn't. Didn't do a lot of. Of shooting from, from beyond a few feet. And, and yet he was dominant. He was dominant.
- [99:56]
A
Well, your team had to hack him. Had to resort to the hacking hack. Hack a Mitch, which I, which that was. Which is good theater in small doses. I think. I'm not one of these hard hardcore like we gotta abolish this in small doses. Which is the only way it exists. I think it is good theater.
- [100:10]
C
That is a great way to look at it. It is great theater is so compelling and I've always found even more than the big field goal in football, because to be honest with you, it always struck me as odd that they play one game for most of the football game and then it becomes this weird little, little carnival trick where a guy who, who doesn't really practice with the team has all the power over the, the outcome of the game. But free throws is. You're doing something that's basketball. But also there's all this kind of pressure and I just, I love all these stories over the years of people who were bad free throw shooters who could make 60 in a row during practice and, and how mental it is. It's just, it's. It's a, it's a really good little crucible for the mental aspect of, of basketball.
- [101:02]
A
Well, you talk in Your book about performance anxiety and, and choking. And I can relate to that too. I've always said, like, if I were a soccer player, I would be like, I'm not, I don't want any part of the penalty kicks, like, take me out, I'm not taking any of them. And like, same thing, free throw game on the line. No thank you. I would crumble, crumble under the pressure.
- [101:23]
C
Yeah, there's, I mean, eventually I was able to figure out a way, and the same with, with comedy. I was able to figure out a way where I wouldn't get too anxious before I went on TV or did important shows. But it required a lot of effort and an adjustment in my philosophy. I remember reading this great book about baseball in which Tug McGraw talked about coming in with the bases loaded to save games. And he called it the frozen iceball theory. And he said someday the earth will be a frozen ice ball and in space and nobody is going to care what I did in the ninth inning against the San Diego Padres. And, and I, I really like that, but it takes a lot to be able to get to that, that type of, of perspective and, and insight.
- [102:11]
A
So knowing that I was a little bit like that as a kid, as an athlete as a kid, and now my daughter is getting big into sports and she's pretty good at some sports, swim, she's a good little swimmer, but she says, and she, she got into like the, the A relays a lot this summer, but she says she doesn't like relays. And I'm like, well she's like, I don't like when everyone's watching me. I feel like everyone's watching me. And I said to her a version of this of like, look, I don't mean to like deflate your ego, but like no one is actually watching you. Like all the parents, all the parents are like chitter chattering about stuff going on in their life and like we can't even really tell who it is because everyone's wearing goggles and cap. Like, I hate to bring it, but, but there is some sort of therapy to that of like everyone thinks the world is about them and like actually you're just irrelevant and nobody's thinking about you other than you.
- [103:02]
C
Yeah, it's, it's so interesting that we have such a low self esteem that we think we're worthless, but also everybody is watching everybody, everyone, every single one of our moves. It's, it's, it's crazy.
- [103:16]
A
All right, last thing you said you wanted to talk about basketball books. Why did you want to talk about basketball books? Are there books you want to talk about? Do you want recommendations? Do you want to give recommendations? Like, I've obviously got a gigantic library of basketball books. Why did you want to bring this up?
- [103:29]
C
Because over the summer I reread Miracle at St. Anthony by Woj. Yeah. And it compared to so well to my favorite basketball book of all time, which was Darcy Fry's the Last Shot.
- [103:47]
A
Yep. It's up somewhere on my shelf.
- [103:49]
C
Yeah. About the Coney island kids. And my issue with a lot of sports books, and there are exceptions, is that they write for a seventh grade reader, really. And there are exceptions. The David Halberstams and Darcy Fry, but. And also this miracle of St. Anthony, which I guess I hadn't read enough books the first time I read it because I didn't realize how much better it is than most basketball books. And I was just. It blew me away. And also, it also dovetails nicely with what we were talking about with a coach where Bob Hurley Sr. Was a very difficult man to play for. And he could be really snide and sarcastic, but, man, you could tell on in every breath how much he cared about his players. And also, he was such a great teacher, down to working on a player's shot. There was one kid named Sean in the book who was practicing on his own, and the coach got mad at him because he says, every time you're practicing on your own, you're ruining your shot. And that was something that very few coaches after seventh and eighth grade really spent time on, which is one of the most important aspects of coaching is teaching and molding your form and how you defend, but also where your elbow is, where your hand is at the end and where your hand is at the beginning. And I watched all these Instagram because I'm trying to get better at basketball in my 50s. So I watch all these. I watch form shooting, and I watched Lethal Shooter. And I just. All right, yeah, I've gotten so much better at shooting or more consistent in my shot. And it just was really nice. It was sort of. I was able to have vicariously a good, caring coach by reading this book. And it was really amazing. And then I reached out to Woj on Instagram and he wrote me back and he offered to send me Saint Bonaventure swag. And it was just.
- [105:59]
A
He's all in. He's all in on the bodies.
- [106:01]
C
Such a nice experience with an author that you don't always get. And he's such a kind man and such a beautiful writer. I hope he'll write another book. But this was immersion journalism. This reminded me of Adrian LeBlanc's random family, although not as heavy. And it just, it was such a beautiful book and I can't recommend it enough. Even if you're not a basketball fan, it was just it with the great basketball books and the great sports books do. And Joe Posnanski is. Is great at this and Halberstam is. Is great at this is also giving you kind of a sociological look. Howard Bryant is another great writer in the sports genre where I read his Ricky Henderson book and his Henry Aaron book. And you're also getting a history of the time for African Americans and for America in general. And so it makes you feel less guilty about reading a sports book when you're also being informed about other aspects of.
- [107:02]
A
It's funny, we were talking about Ricky Henderson randomly three days ago because one of the wonderful things that has happened in my life in the past year, partly thanks to my paid sabbatical, is I've gotten back into baseball and the Mets in particular, and I've gotten my daughter into it. And for some reason, for some reason, on some broadcast of a Mets game, they put the all time stolen base leaders list up. Some of Soto must have stolen the base or something. And it was like, Ricky Henderson has like just a gigantic amount of steals. And then the second person is way below him, I think. And she was like, whoa, tell me about that guy. Like, how did that guy get so many more steals? And like Ricky Anderson was one of my favorite players growing up, even though he played a lot for the Yankees. But like I, I was always drawn to walks and on base percentage and like if he walked, he was on second base. And she was like, how did he get so many seals? I was like, we had a whole Rickey Henderson talk.
- [107:55]
C
Yeah. Oh, that's amazing. That's amazing. That book was, was so good. And I just. He was also like a folk, a folk figure, a folk hero. It was, it was, the book was fascinating and he was so eccentric and. Yeah, that's one of the things I miss about modern baseball is how, how much people used to steal, especially in the, in the 80s in the national League. You would look at the numbers and they were, they were extraordinary.
- [108:23]
A
Vince Coleman would have like a hundred steals in a season.
- [108:26]
C
Yeah.
- [108:27]
A
Have you ever read a book, basketball book? It's by an author named Thomas Beller, who writes for the New York Lost in the Game.
- [108:35]
C
Yes. I love that.
- [108:36]
A
I was going to recommend it to you. Because it reminds me of you.
- [108:38]
C
Yes.
- [108:39]
A
Tell me what you like about it.
- [108:40]
C
Well, I just. I loved the fact that he was a fan of the game, but also played a lot and took playing really seriously. And he was getting a lot of the similar things that I get out of playing basketball and that when you play a pickup game wherever you go. New York, I play in. On the road. I'll play in Salt Lake City and things like that. And everybody knows most of the etiquette involved with. With playing. And you make this connection with somebody, especially in two on two and three on three, where you're working together as kind of a band. It almost feels like. Like it must feel for. For musicians in a jazz band, because you're improvising and there's some basic moves. You set a pick, you roll and. And you. And also you try to be a little bit democratic with the ball and get people, even if they're not on your skill level, involved in it. And it's just such a. It's. It's. I can't recommend it enough to men in their 40s and 50s who've let go of basketball. It's. It's. It's a satisfaction I can't imagine you're getting on the. On the pickleball court.
- [109:45]
A
I tried pickleball. It's not bad. It's actually fun. Like, I played. I was like, I get this. I get. I get why. This is. It's like a low barrier to entry kind of sport. And it's fun.
- [109:57]
C
Yeah.
- [109:57]
A
Nothing compared to basketball. All right, you get this is. You've given me too much time.
- [110:01]
C
This is.
- [110:01]
A
I've got to let you go.
- [110:02]
C
All right.
- [110:02]
A
Okay. So here's what we're going to promote. Misfit. I can't. I mean, look right on the COVID Amy Schumer says, one of my favorite books of all time.
- [110:10]
C
Yeah.
- [110:11]
A
It's just a beautiful book. And particularly if you are anywhere, anyone who's a fan of comedy should read it. But if you are anywhere, I'm gonna say, from 38 years old and up, it's like a time capsule into your childhood. You write in here. One of my favorite things in the book is how you write people's phone numbers down because you remember, like, people who were your friends when you were nine years old. You remember their phone numbers. I. I can't remember, like, my wife's phone number, but I can remember, like, seven of my best friends, Landlines numbers from when I was a kid. And I just. They're all just permanently in there. Jack 637-8313 Like, I just, I know them all. Scott 637-4803 like, they're just in my head. Misfit. And then Grand Eloquent, which I saw on its original run in New York. And it was just awesome. Is coming. Let me see. We've Got Boston, October 25th at the Shubert Theater. Philadelphia, November 14th, two shows on the 15th at the Kimmel center for Performing Arts. And a bunch of dates after that in, in Raleigh and Washington D.C. in Atlanta. What's the best way to buy tickets on your site? Garygoleman.com Garygoldman.com I think is the safest.
- [111:21]
C
Way to, to get to the right link.
- [111:23]
A
I'm telling you right now, like dinner out with your significant other. Go to a show, have a drink after. It's a perfect way to spend a night. It was, it was moving. It was funny. GARY Goman, it has been such a joy getting to know you over the years and, and following your work. I let's, let's hit a basketball game together at some point this year. How about that?
- [111:41]
C
I would, I would love it. Reach out anytime. Do you remember we met, this was one of the great days of my life that I'll never forget. We met at a, at a lunch. And it was the great writer who's another, another great writer that I recommend, my friend Jack McCallum who wrote a book about the Oscar Robertson Indiana high school team and, and interviewed all those guys. It's another great book that I've read in the past couple of years. But, and Mike d', Antoni, who was coaching, I think the Rockets at that time, and we had, it was like a dream come true lunch and we really hit it off. And so I'm so grateful for your friendship and for having me on today. And let's definitely get to a game. Thanks so much.
- [112:22]
A
That's why you do this job, I gotta tell you, is lunches like that, all the podcasts and this and that, it's like to sit down and have a lunch with Gary Goleman and then Mike D' Antoni and Jack McCallum, who, you know, Jack wrote seven seconds or less with Mike D' Antoni's sons and just. All right. And those guys are both just D' Antoni and McCallum, just wind them up and like tell stories about Sean Marion for 45 minutes, you know, and it's, that's all it is. All right, Gary, thank you. Everyone knows where to find your stuff now. This was tremendous. Appreciate your time.
- [112:52]
C
This was a ball. Thank you so much, guys.
- [112:56]
A
All right, that's it for today's episode. We'll be back later this week. Thanks to Fred Katz, thanks to the one and only Gary Goldman. Thanks to Jesse, Victoria and Ceruti on production. Thanks to you for listening and or watching the Zach Lowe Show. We'll see you later this week when there's going to be a lot more NBA stuff to talk about. Those qualifying offers are coming up. Thanks again, everybody. Coverage varies by plan. View contracts and exclusions@endurancewarranty.com if you're driving a car or truck with an expired warranty and suddenly lost your transmission or needed a full engine repair, would it leave you stranded? I'm Danica Patrick. Choose the company I trust, Endurance. If your vehicle is less than 20 years old, Endurance offers auto protection on the drivetrain, AC and more. Act now and get one full year of elite benefits, a $2,000 value free. For your free quote, go to endurancewarranty. Com. That's endurancewarranty. Com.