← The Zach Lowe Show
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- [00:00]
A
This episode is brought to you by Adobe Firefly, the all in one creative studio with AI powered image and video generation built for today's creative process. Firefly helps you generate, edit and experiment fast because the asks aren't getting smaller and the timelines. Ooh yeah, still tight. With all the best creative AI models in one place, Firefly brings your ideas to life. Learn more@adobe.com Firefly. Coming up on the Zach Lowe show we are past the halfway point of the NBA's first round. One series is over. The Thunder have swept the Suns. We'll talk a little bit about that and the sun's future, but lots still pending. Austin Reaves is coming back, reportedly maybe for the lakers in Game 5, right? Rob Mahoney and I will talk about that series. What that return means. Can the Rockets actually pull this off? Denver stayed alive last night with a home win against the injury ravaged Minnesota Timberwolves. The Nuggets are injury ravaged too. I can't take any more injuries. Nas Reed sprained his ankle but he came back in the game. I need Nas Reid to be healthy. We'll talk about what adjustments might come in that series. Can Minnesota hold on and squeak out one more win without Anthony Edwards and without Dante DiVincenzo? Would a Denver win feel hollow? What does Denver's future look like? We get into all that. Orlando Detroit. What a slugfest. Literally blood on multiple players at the end of the game. Jamal Kane. Jamal Kane ended Jalen Duran. It happened. I couldn't believe it. And then he had another put back dunk. Detroit is on the brink. What would a loss in the first round mean for their franchise going forward in terms of decision making? Can they get back into the series? We'll talk a little bit about that. Toronto Cleveland 22 oh, it's getting sticky for the Cavs. That series resumes tomorrow. Wednesday. We'll talk a little bit about that and then some winners and losers of the off season. We'll talk about some trade possibilities, lottery reform, lots and lots of stuff. We're getting into everything with Rob Mahoney coming up. The Zach Lowe show is brought to you by FanDuel. The NBA postseason is here and FanDuel knows the only thing better than watching your favorite team win is winning along with them. FanDuel is the best place to bet the teams, players and plays during their playoff run. Build a same game parlay or try live betting and jump in after tip off. And don't forget, with FanDuel you get paid instantly when you win. Download the Fanduel sportsbook app now and play your game 20 or over in select states. 18 and over in D.C. kentucky, Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800- gambler, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Conn. Welcome to the Jamal Kane Show. I mean, the Zach Lowe Show. Rob Mahoney is here. There is a lot going on in the NBA. Jalen Duran's remains are splattered all over the floor of whatever the magic arena is called. The Pistons are down 3:1. The Nuggets are alive. Toronto and Cleveland are playing something that resembles basketball. And Colin Murray Boyles is just swatting everything out of sight. We got lottery reform. We got a lot to get to. Mr. Mahoney, how you doing?
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B
I'm doing great. I knew I was in the right place. Cause if we aren't leading with Jamal Kane, honestly, what are we doing here?
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I mean, just. Let's take a second. That dunk was. Was it. I don't know if it was the dunk of the year because my brain is mushed right now from the first round. I'm sure there was one in the. In the. In the regular season by some super duper star that was that good. That was sometimes dunking on someone, it's like a half dunk on someone, or they just start to jump or it's like a half business decision, and they get out of it. This was straight up. Jalen Duran went for it and he got yammed on so hard. And it wasn't like one of those dunks that gets half disrupted in midair because of the shot block attempted. So you just kind of squeeze it in or eek it in. This was. That's as great of a dunk on someone's head as you will see in any kind of basketball game. And then at the end, they have to stop the game because Desmond Bain is, like, gushing blood out of his arm and Jalen Suggs is bleeding. Like, what's happening in this game? My God.
- [04:15]
B
Just the layered indignity of being down 3:1 or going down 3:1. Getting punked repeatedly by Wendell Carter Jr. And you can draw your own inferences as what is. As far as his relation to Jalen Duran and what that means. And then Jamal Kane, of all people, who just came into this game and really has come into the series and been solid and legit and given the magic a lot of good minutes, but you don't expect to get yam done by Jamal Kane like that. Uh, if. If you are potential all NBA player Jalen Duran.
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And then he had like footnote emphatic put back dunk that no one will even remember because it was just like kind of a regular but awesome put back dunk. Anyway, we will get to that series tonight. We have resuming Boston Philly 3 1. I would expect Boston to close it out Embiid or no Embiid appears Embiid is a yes. We have spurs blazers resuming spurs up 3 1. I would expect the spurs to close it out. And then we have the biggest game of the Knicks Hawks at Madison Square Garden. Game 5. Absolutely pivotal game in part because Rob, we're going to pivot to the west in a second. But just in general, I am very curious to watch Boston tonight because before game four when they just destroyed Philadelphia under avalanche of threes and Peyton Pritchard just dancing on everyone, their game three win was a little dicier than I expected it to be. After losing game two, that was was a little too close for comfort for Boston. And it kind of had me thinking like at that point the knicks were down 2 1. They end up tying the series at 22 against a Hawks team. That's good. But like no one looks at the Hawks as oh my God, this is the finals team.
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B
Sure.
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A
The number one seed in the east is down 3 1. The star studded Cavaliers are doing the same thing that the star studded Cavaliers do every season in the playoffs, which is have a ton of trouble with the team that they should not be having this much trouble with. And then the Celtics before that Game 4 win looked like good, but there's still the Tatum recovering thing and their centers are not a question mark, but just a little up and down. Sometimes Derek White's in his shooting slump and it's like, is Orlando going to win the East? Like what's going on in the east is any. Is that. And then they came out in game four and I thought made a statement of like, no, no, yes, we are the best team in the East. And so I'm interested to see that one tonight. And then Knicks Hawks look out. Man, if the Knicks go down three two, gonna get real loud.
- [06:39]
B
Mikhail Bridges might need protective detail if they go down three two. It's, it's getting. I mean it's just such a weird series, such an incredible series. But I, I have a hard time parsing where the dynamics are right now. Like the Knicks obviously looked as impressive as they have this entire run so far, but I don't know that I would bet on that to stay. I don't know that I'm betting on a cat triple double every night. I don't know that I'm completely sold that they're going to shut down CJ McCollum in the way that they were at least partially able to in game four.
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I'm afraid I'm saying this, it is 11am Eastern time, 8am Your time out in LA, so this could just be the curse of all curses. I'm a little happy for Katt that if the Knicks lose to this point, he is not the scapegoat or the problem. He's great and now I say that and God only knows what pit, what pit of hell I have opened for Katie. But we'll get to that all that stuff later. Let's start with the games that are resuming Wednesday and on and the news of the morning. Sham's reporting that Austin Reeves is optimistic about returning for Game 5 of Lakers Rockets, a series that kind of became a forgotten series after The Lakers went up 30 and the Rockets pretty like emphatic home win to save their season in Game 4. And I could tell on Sunday night Bill was so delighted and just wanted to fast forward this discussion to are the Rockets going to do this? Are the Lakers going to be the first team ever to blow a 31 lead? What are your thoughts on Austin Reeves? Well first of all, like Austin Reeves comes back. Yeah, you now have a choice. If he comes back, obviously that's helpful. The Lakers offense is kind of starting to legal a little bit. You do face a choice of like who are we bringing off the bench now? Marcus Smart, Rui Hachimura or Luke Kennard? I think Smart has been too essential as a two way player. So it becomes between Hachimura and Kennard, who would you bring off the bench and like do the Rockets just big picture, can they actually do this or is it too big of a hill?
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B
I wish I could believe that they could do this, but the Rockets, I mean they just play some of the dumbest basketball of anybody alive in the playoffs. In terms of the decision making, in terms of like the teetering edge of when they are good versus when they are bad always feels so perilous and they're always so close. The idea that they would have the precision necessary to pull off an unprecedented comeback, I just don't buy it. And so as things stand, Austin Reeves should help accelerate the Lakers through whatever is left of this series. I think for as amazing as he's been moving Luke Kennard to the bench Makes sense just in terms of balancing the rotation, giving some of the oomph that he's brought to the Lakers in the starting lineup. But now you can kind of stretch it out over the course of the game and if anything, in this potential closeout effort, I thought we saw, you know, LeBron bumping up against some of the reasonable limits of what he can provide. And so the more you can augment what he's bringing and Reeves is bringing while cautiously easing back into the lineup with Canard off the bench in his, like, new reinvented form. I think that makes a lot of sense for them.
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A
I just. It's hard to imagine the Houston Rockets, given the state of their offense, winning four basketball games in a row against a good team now a good team that has home court advantage over them. Yeah, their defense is hellacious and they will be competitive almost every game. And this could be a 2, 2 series if not for one of the all time incredible, inexplicable collapses in game three. I still can't even believe that that happened. I don't think the Lakers can believe it. I don't think anyone involved can believe it. But it just, it would seem unlikely to me. But is there. Did you see anything in game four other than other than the Rockets finally putting Luke Canard through the ringer on defense? That, that struck you as okay? That's interesting. That's something the Lakers might have to adjust to.
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B
I mean, to be honest, not particularly. I mean, I think it was a more encouraging effort from Shangoon overall just in terms of the balance of his game and his playmaking. And like, he has to be good, right? Like, that's without Kevin Durant. That is like the baseline expectation of what has to happen for their half court offense. But I didn't watch the flow and the operations of the Rockets and think, oh, this is a team that's like really figured some stuff out. It's like selective mismatch targeting. Obviously, like, the more you can create turnovers and get out on transition, all the better for a team like this. But they're just one of these groups that gets by off of that athleticism and off that tenacity on defense and otherwise. Like, I just don't trust their problem solving. And as you alluded to with the, the implosion in game three, I just don't trust their like collective poise in a lot of these situations.
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A
Michael Pina wrote about this already yesterday, the Durant situation. He has a year and then a player option left on his contract. I Just think, if they lose this series, and history suggests, apologies to the Rockets fans, that they will lose the series, I do think they face an interesting three pronged decision. Decision number one choice. Path number one is stay the course. This was a gap year. KD comes back, Fred Van Vliet comes back. That's about. As you know, Amin Thompson gets better. Tar Eason is a free agent. We got to figure him out. Jabari Smith Jr gets better. Everyone improves. Sengun improves. This is like a pretty good team and maybe actually the best way we can compete against Oklahoma City and San Antonio, who are going to own this conference for the foreseeable future. Path number two is like, oh, God, our team isn't good enough. Trade Shen Goon and the Nets pick and a ton of other stuff for Giannis or another superstar, and hope that Giannis plus Durant plus Van Vliet plus whatever's left over, presumably Ahmed Thompson, because you're not going to trade both of those guys, Shangun and Thompson. I would think not is enough. Whether the Bucks do that or not. Whole other story. I don't want to talk about the Bucks. Path number three, which is almost the most interesting one and the least sexy one is do you just trade Durant as, like, almost a timetable reset? Like, all right, this didn't work. It got a little messy. There was a whole bone of a whole burner phone thing that happened. That happened. And could we trade him to any number of teams in the Eastern Conference who are like, hey, we're in the East. We got a shot. You guys have no shot. And just get some stuff for him. You still have Van Vliet stuck there, but, like, just, okay, let's reset a little bit around these young guys who are pretty good and see what we have and keep our Nets pick from next year, keep our son's draft assets, keep all that. I almost think that might be. I actually might rank them in order of, like, what I would do. Stan Pat, Durant trademark, Giannis all in move. I might put Giannis all in move, like, last of those three, which seems a little crazy to me because I don't. I don't know what. Which of any of those paths is putting me on the same level of the two best teams in the conference who are only going to get better.
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B
Yeah, well, does Stan Pat include the coaching staff as well?
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A
You know, look, I. I called IME's game two coaching performance and I quote myself borderline insane. So I have not been a huge fan of his performance on the offensive end. Of the ball. His ability to build a culture and build a defense is like unimpeachable. That's. That's just the thing. He's good at it.
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B
Agreed.
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I said in the middle of the season like let's start taking bets on who the Mike d' Antoni style offensive oriented associate head coaches on the Rockets next year. I still think given the injuries I would actually, I mean this is really not based on what I've heard, but just my gut. Like I would actually be surprised if they moved on for me. May. I don't think it would be completely outrageous or out of play, but my expect I would bet that he stays as the coach.
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B
I think that's fair in terms of the sort of COVID that coaches get in these situations. But if we're charting out those three, those three possibilities with Eme Odoka continuing as the coach, I don't know that I really want to see the half torn down. Not Kevin Durant version of this team anymore. Like we saw that team run up against the wall last year. We know exactly what they can and can't. A little bit of incremental improvement from some of the young players involved helps, but I don't think it resolves any of their problems. And to me this boils down to like do you see Kevin Durant as a sunk cost or do you see him as like a slightly open window? And I think at this point in his career it's. I think a slightly open window feels fair if you can get him a little bit more flow, a little bit more help. Even like a Fred Van Vliet amount of help within this offense would do wonders for the Rockets. I think they are close enough that I would continue to lean into what they have and honestly maybe just sour enough on the Shangoon long term projection that I'm okay exploring some of those possibilities while keeping Kevin Durant if that's what it came down to. I just don't know that I would bail on this so quickly even for as messy and as weird as it's been.
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A
I think that's fair. I think Stampat is. Stampat. Ish. Right. There's always going to be tweaks and stuff, but they have some really valuable draft assets and I'm, I'm like, I don't know. They can play both sides of it pretty well. Okay, just looking forward a second. Will you. Will you just do me the luxury of Thunder Lakers? Just. I've, I've started looking ahead to that matchup. If Luka could ever get back. And I'm not sure what the timetable is. It doesn't seem terribly optimistic. I actually think the Jalen Williams injury, if he is also out, could really matter in this series. Because if Luka's back and Reeves is back, you have these three really good offensive players. Dort would guard one and Jalen Williams would guard the other. And typically Jalen Williams would guard LeBron and Dort would guard Luka Doncic. If Luke is out, you just slide dort over to LeBron and you figure it out. If they have all of them and the Thunder don't have Jalen Williams, it kind of gets. I mean, I would still pick the Thunder to win the series, to be clear. It just kind of gets fun in terms of the jigsaw puzzle of like, okay, is check going to guard LeBron? We actually saw a little bit of that in, in the last matchup. Okay. If not Chet, if is. Is Dork going to guard LeBron, well, then who's guarding Luka? Do I have to change my starting five, which right now it's AJ Mitchell. Do I have to start a more defensive oriented player in that spot? It kind of becomes like, you see at least a roadmap for the Lakers to just slow this down, play old man bully ball Luka centric basketball, and like, at least make it a competitive series. Like, I think the J now he's week to week, Luka's whatever to whatever. They could both be back. Neither of them could be back. I have no idea. I just think it's, like, kind of interesting to think about.
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B
It's definitely interesting to think about. I also think it's exactly what people like us want out of a Thunder playoff run. Like, where are the points where they're really being pressed and tested and forced to be something outside of what they would like to be? Like, they would love to throw AJ Mitchell out there, but making it untenable makes the Thunder more interesting and to be honest, like a loot. There should be something illegal about coming back from injury and having to be guarded by Lou Dort in a playoff series.
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A
You're going to get tripped within five minutes.
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You're at least going to be thinking about it nonstop. And for that reason alone, I think if you're. If you're going through the matchups from the Thunder perspective, I would put Lou Dorrit on either Luka or Austin Reeves just for like, the psychic value of put Lou Dort firmly in their head every time they're thinking about the stability of their lower body. Like, it's, it's a.
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A
It's mean.
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I mean it's the gamesmanship of the playoffs. What else are you supposed to do? Yeah, but I do think Chad would end up guarding LeBron a lot in that series. I think that would be. And a really fun matchup to see LeBron try to leverage his strength against him. Like big, wiry rim rim protector against like grizzled, ultra clever playmaker trying to body him at every turn. Like, that's the kind of matchup I want to see.
- [18:31]
A
You could also, you could do some really interesting things with Hartenstein too. When they have the. Both the bigs out there, you could put Hardenstein on LeBron and just sort of sit back and see what happens and make Chet the rim protector on Ayton. Like, and then they go one big. It gets. Then they go just one big. It gets a little easier. Anyway, we're getting too far afoot. Some quick newsy things, Rob. Did. Did we win the rookie of the year argument? Because you were Cooper Flag all along. And I flipped to Cooper Flag before the play in tournament at the end of the season. Very close vote. Just. And it's. It's a matter of taste. I just, I went with Flag in the end for reasons I've already articulated. It was very. It was very close and it should. I was actually even closer than I thought it was. I thought Khan was going to win and it was going to be close. I think the play in just destroyed Khan's rookie of the year. Like, I think those two games or that one was. It was those two games did him in. And I know that the NBA is not psyched that people may have changed their vote because of the play in tournament, to which I say, sorry, NBA, you created the problem. You created this appeals system that delayed everybody getting their ballots. And then you asked voters to do something that they couldn't do, which is tell their human brain with all its vulnerabilities and vicissitudes, hey, brain, shut off. Watch the play in and analyze it, but shut off the awards part of yourself and all those neurons over there and don't consider it for the awards. It's not possible. It's the NBA's fault. And if the play in swung the race, which I believe it did, then too bad. NBA.
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B
Yeah, I was genuinely shocked. And maybe this is just because we're in a con echo chamber over here as far as you know who is getting votes and who is getting carpool rides and whatnot. But I think we look, you either have to resolve the play in interim period and just get the votes in earlier or just let them count. Like I don't even really see a problem if we're allowing the NBA cup championship, which is technically not a regular season game, to factor into awards voting and a bunch of other different ways. Like what is the harm in letting a play in game factor in?
- [20:37]
A
I think you need to count the playing games have to count for something. They either need to be play playoff games like you go look for the playing games. Like I was looking at Jalen Green's playoff stats because we're going to talk about the Suns at the end and I'm like Jalen Green's playoff stats, they look a lot like John Green says, oh he played really well in the play and can't find those stats anywhere. They don't exist. It didn't matter. Last bit of news, the lottery reform which I don't want to belabor but I said this a few weeks ago, Stan Van Gundy that the one that has momentum and Sam Amick sort of reiterated this yesterday in his reporting there because there's a I guess the GM's call today is 18 teams get into the lottery. So the 10 that missed the playoffs, the 10 that missed the play in and the playoffs, the four losers from the play in and the four winners from the play in and the odds for the 10 worst teams are all flat. They all have the same odds at the number one pick and then the other eight teams. So the play in teams including the ones that make the playoffs get a lesser portion of the odds. And beyond that the specifics are tbd like how many slots do you draw and all of this. Needless to say this would have a huge impact on tons of team building decisions on tons of picks that have already been traded. We're going to talk about Denver in a minute. My just general question to you. I don't want to get into all the different proposals and like this proposal that incentivizes winning and this credits based proposal that I reported on a couple weeks ago which is really interesting. Do you like this one?
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B
I like it fine as usual. I don't think it solves all the problems and as usual I think it probably will just kind of shift the battleground of where the tanking occurs. Like I think we're just going to see teams like really valuing being in that like 10th worst record slot as opposed to you know, some of these play in births or some of like the play insecurity of where you're seated in that particular bracket. So it's like you get rid of some of the most unseemly stuff and maybe that's worth it, right? Like the Wizards pulling guys and the Jazz sitting guys and the Pacers like hoping to God that no one looks too closely at what they're doing on a nightly basis. But does it really change a lot if you're just moving some of that to like a Bucs warriors game or those two teams like jockeying in the standings to be slightly worse than each other to get like a flat 8% odd?
- [22:54]
A
I think their bet is teams are going to care about winning in the playoffs too much to tank out of the top six and into the play in and out of the play in and into the lottery. And that's, I think that's pretty reasonable. I don't mind this proposal. Like here's what I mind. So this is a sentence from Sammy mc and this is his words, but he's just parroting what you hear from teams who don't like this because it's, it's too flat and it's too disadvantageous to the worst teams, he says. What might the league wide reaction be, for example, when one of those two lottery teams that actually took part in the playoffs gets lucky by landing the number one pick? This stuff drives me insane. This is the stupidest possible sentiment out there about lottery reform because you cannot, unless there's a middle ground that I'm missing. And please, please tell me if there is. You cannot bemoan tanking and be like this is a scourge on the league, it's horrible. And then be like, oh my God, but what if the 16th best team wins the lottery? What if a playoff team wins the lottery? You have to be willing to live with that kind of outcome if you want to eradicate tanking. Unless there's another kind of solution that I don't see and we can. There's a million different ones that are out there. But if you're sticking with this sort of format, you can't have everything. You can't have the perfect reverse order draft where the worst teams get rewarded and you can't also have be angry about oh my God, a mid tier team won the lottery. You have to be willing to live with something. And in the, and this is the short term thinking of everyone in the league, if you played out this system for 50 years, it would favor the worst teams in the aggregate, slightly at least. And so it's just, you just have to, what are you Willing to live with. If you're not willing to live with tanking, you have to be willing to live with a team that's in the playoffs or a team that's just in the end of the lottery. Winning the lottery in a year where the draft actually matters. And Sam cites the Mavericks with Cooper flag and other sort of recent big jumps up in the lottery. Yeah, it's already happening. Like I just. That sentiment just drives me insane. The pearl clutching of like, won't someone think of the children? Like, if you want to get rid of tanking, you're going to have to swallow some pain elsewhere.
- [25:11]
B
Well, especially when we're talking about playing teams. Like if you were to concoct a dream scenario, if you get to hand pick exactly who gets the number one pick next year, I would think on the grounds of ethical basketball alone, the Suns would be like a good candidate. Right? Like they play, they played hard all year, they overachieved, they worked through defense, they took this roster and really made something of it relative to expectation. Like why would that not be the kind of team that would be a great story to land the number one overall pick?
- [25:41]
A
Well, the only problem with that is
- [25:43]
B
they don't have it.
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A
They don't.
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B
But if they did own their own picks, perhaps, maybe it would be a great story to own it.
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A
Okay, we'll get back to the Suns. Let's talk about the events of the night and what's going on going forward.
- [25:55]
B
Before we even do that, like, do you. If we're going to make dramatic proposals like this to the lottery system, I do think this is a great time for it because of the magic. Like, because a play in team is having like real success pushing in creating the competing motivation of should I be trying to tank for these flattened odds or to get into this particular flattened bracket versus maybe our, our team is talented enough and uneven enough to believe that we could push a number one or number two seed if given the perfect matchup.
- [26:24]
A
That's fair. That's a good point. And they were a play in team. So this team would be in the lottery. To your point, under this proposal. Look, there's a billion different proposals. They all have issues, they all move the lines a little bit. It's just, it's, it's, it just is. It is what it is. I just don't want to hear that. And by the way, this, whatever this solution is is not is. It's been made very clear in the competition committee meetings that it's not going to be a permanent solution. Necessarily like there's. It's going to be revisited in five, six, seven years and, and more radical solutions like that credit based system could be on the table then. Okay, let's talk about the playoffs. Minnesota. Denver. Denver. You know, pretty emphatic home win last night despite no Aaron Gordon, no Peyton Watson, but a win that you should get when Anthony Edwards is out and Dante DiVincenzo is out for the season and for a lot of next year, if not all of next year. Now the series heads to Minnesota for Game 6. Obviously there's going to be a ton of pressure on a shorthanded Wolves team to get this thing over the finish line, which I think they can do. They proved it in game four that they can do it. I guess my first question to you would be, if Denver comes back to win this series, would it feel hollow to you?
- [27:41]
B
A little bit. I think you could see a bunch of very obvious and also very downstream implications of not having Ant and Dante out there. It completely changes the entire shape of the Wolves. It puts guys in roles that they're not used to being in. Even when you think about defensively, like the cascading effect, once you go from Jaden McDaniels to now your second best defender on the perimeter is basically Ayo Desumu, who's good and active, but also like a little spacey and a little unreliable in certain positioning ways. That's a dramatic change in tenor of the series. And so if you did have the Nuggets roaring back to find a version of themselves again to win the series, you would want them to do it through Anthony Edwards, to be going like through the resistance of this series and not you almost win. Not on technicality, but your path has been smoothed to a degree that it's so much easier to find yourself.
- [28:31]
A
I think it would feel hollow. And I don't mean that as a slight to the Nuggets because you can't apologize for winning. And they're shorthanded too. They're just not this shorthanded like you take Anthony Edwards out, that's a different ball game. As great as Aaron Gordon isn't as perfect as a fit as he is and as good as Peyton Watson is. And by the way, I think fans who, you know, kind of tune in and out in the regular season may still think of Peyton Watson as this like cute 7th or 8th guy off the bench that he became a really, really good starter level player who is a sneaky, very important free agent this off season for both the Nuggets. And maybe the Lakers and a bunch of other teams. I think it would feel a little hollow, but again, you can't apologize for it. I have no idea if Aaron Gordon will play again in the postseason. He looked, like, really, really compromised in game four. Scarily compromised. I thought he looked like they were
- [29:24]
B
trying to get away with something. It's like, how long can we have Aaron Gordon on the court before the Wolves realize they don't have to guard him basically at all?
- [29:31]
A
Which they did realize. And a little bit of that happened with Nas Reed last night after he sprained his ankle. They started being like, oh, we can just put anybody on Naz Read and like, please, Nas Reed, be healthy. I can't take any more of these injuries. Oh, by the way. Oh, we'll get. We'll get to that. I'll get back to that. But it would also, if Denver comes back to win, I think potentially forestall some pretty hefty decisions about this core and how to move forward if they had just gotten wiped out in five games in this series. And it did really look like those. Those three games in a row and the two in Minnesota, like, Minnesota had just busted their ass. Like, they had beat. Like they had beaten him up. They had taken them out of their game. They had taken Jokic completely out of his game, like, very frazzled and just out of it, and exposed that without Gordon and Watson, the Nuggets just don't have enough talent around Murray and Jokic, who neither of them was letting it up anyway. And I think if they actually scrounged this series in seven games and then let's say they put up a respectable effort against the spurs and losing six, I think you just end up being like, all right, like, maybe we have to salary dump Cam Johnson to keep Peyton Watson. I think that's a thing that could be on the map. But, like, largely, what else are we supposed to do? We made the second round. We have Murray and Jokic in their primes. Yeah, we're not as good as the Thunder and the spurs, but we got to run it back. I think if they get wiped out in this series, it raises a lot of. Lot of big issues. And, like, that's what it turns on,
- [30:59]
B
though they would be deserved issues. I think the problem with where the Nuggets are is there are only so many levers to pull that would actually make you in any way better. Like, I understand the concerns about Aaron Gordon's health now, given the way these last two seasons have gone. You're not going to find anyone out there who Aaron Gordon's better than Aaron Gordon, like that very particular skill set and role is so critical to them that I don't know that they're going to find a demonstrative upgrade other than maybe they would trade Gordon for a different kind of player and just really prioritize and elevate Peyton Watson there. But even then he's like better at guarding wings and guards than he is at like cross matching to guard fives, which doesn't alleviate the concerns about Nikola Jokic's defense. Christian Brown at this point, like might be untradable if you don't attach something pretty juicy to get to that like $125 million contract he's owed.
- [31:51]
A
So really, really disappointing season and post season and I don't remember off the top of my head what the specifics were in terms of like what was Peyton Watson asking for and this and that. But like looks like they made the wrong choice if it was really their choice. And I'm not sure it entirely was. But yeah, very disappointing.
- [32:09]
B
Yeah. And I can understand some of the thinking, right, like betting on the cautious middle ground of this is a solid, reliable role player who is just coming off of a very improved season. We're going to take what feels like the safer bet versus the high end possibility of what Peyton Watson has become. Unfortunately, Peyton Watson is kind of tapping onto that high end and Kristen Brown may not have been as safe a bet as they thought. And in particular that's a lot of money to place on even what feels like a safe bet for what's going to be, you know, your fifth starter, maybe fourth starter.
- [32:40]
A
Aspirationally, it really if, if I mean they would I don't think it's unfair to to if they lose, if they lose this series. Now to begin asking the question like is the window just shut on this court given how how great the top two seeds in the west are now and figure to be in the next few years. And if you think it is closed, what do you do about it? And Denver's situation is like pretty interesting. So they owed their they have their first round pick this year. They owe their 2027 pick with top five protection that rolls over multiple years to the Thunder of all teams. The freaking Thunder. And so let's if they they probably will give that pick. It's hard to imagine the Nuggets are picking in in the top five next in 2027. Then they would have their 2028 pick but they can't trade it in the meantime. They can Trade it maybe once they make that pick. If, if, if they owe their 2029 pick, top five protected to guess who, Oklahoma City. And these are trades that Calvin Booth made with the idea of we're going to trade out of the future to get extra bites at the apple now and Yoka just prime to get like more rookie scale contracts and has it paid off. It's like they got Peyton Watson. I think with one of those trades, it's like neither here nor there. And so in the meantime, they can't really move their 2030 or 2031 picks until all of those obligations are extinguished and then they owe their 2032 pick unprotected to the Nets in the Cam Johnson, Michael Porter Jr. Trade. The top five protection is interesting because it does, in theory, give them some protection if they just decide it's over and we want to tank. However, the lottery odds changing really mitigates against that because right now you can control your own destiny to a degree that you will not be able to if these flattened lottery odds are actually passed. And not only that, being in the middle becomes more profitable for you and sort of, I think maybe pushes teams to just say, well, you know, if we are a whatever team, if we can trade Jamal Murray and do this and that and be like a good team but not a great team, that's fine. It's just. Did I spend time making up fake joker Murray deals? Rob? Yes, Yes, I did. Because I think it's worth. It's a fun thought exercise, but I don't know, it's interesting to think about. Like, if you trade one, should you just trade both? Or is there like a Murray trade out there that, you know, you just keep like you. No one wants to trade Nikola Jokic. Right. But I did spend some time on it.
- [35:14]
B
I think you have to, for that reason, like you outlined that one of their only means of relief is to just like, dump Cam Johnson somewhere else. They just don't have a lot of other maneuvers to make except the big nuclear stuff.
- [35:26]
A
Yeah. You want to hear some?
- [35:29]
B
I would love to. What do you have?
- [35:32]
A
I mean, I didn't go too, too deep because I think, I think it's a little early and a little outrageous. But I will say, like, Charlotte for either guy is interesting. Toronto for either guy is interesting. Now, the. The Nuggets would surely not trade Jokic without getting Scotty Barnes. And so maybe that doesn't make sense for the Raptors.
- [35:57]
B
Well, as, as I was going through the exercise of, like, who could fill the Aaron Gordon spot in a similar way to Aaron Gordon. I mean Scotty Barnes is among the dream candidates. But you're right, it, it seems impossible that they would end up on the same team.
- [36:08]
A
I mean you have to find a team that has a really good young player or players surplus of potentially actually good first round picks and could reasonably say after we trade all of that stuff for one or both or one of these guys, we can win immediately. And it's a hard needle to thread. I really thought about Detroit sign and trade Jalen Duran and a billion other things, but unfortunately that the cap exists and there's base year compensation rules and also the Nuggets are probably going to be over the first apron and can't get a player in a sign and trade. And then you have the teams like to what end Chicago, to what end Brooklyn? Like if Brooklyn is supposedly in on Giannis, why wouldn't they be in on Jokic? Like, but to what end the Lakers? Everyone will want to sign and trade. Read you can. The same thing applies the warriors. Same thing. You'll hear warriors like the Murray one just alone like Atlanta could. You could make an argument for either guy in Atlanta with all the extra picks they have, including this Pelicans pick. I just. These are the kind of teams that you had to at least think about. I just don't know that there's anything palatable for Denver. But that window, if it's not, if it's not shut, is getting like pretty close because Minnesota kicked the crap out of them. But now they're alive. They're alive and they win the series. I think it forestalls all this. Did you see like, so what can Minnesota do without their starting backcourt? Like did you see any glimpses of interesting stuff in that game last night?
- [37:38]
B
I think it's pretty challenging and you could see the Nuggets just with like slightly better and more precise and more active defense were able to muck things up and make things pretty challenging for Minnesota's playmakers. It's just a lot to ask of IO Dsumu to go from like, oh, make the most of this like semi transition break to now. You have to read multiple layers of defense or Julius Randle here. Now you have multiple bodies being thrown at you all the time. Jade McDaniels, like your handle is so much improved. Now do something with it on a level that's going to like carry everything that like ant initiating carries. I think that part of it is really hard. I do think that they can gum up the game enough though. To make it more competitive than this and certainly was in the first half. Like so much of what Denver was able to accomplish was diversifying who was handling the ball for them. It was like getting Cam Johnson into situations where he was being more aggressive. It was getting activating Spencer Jones in a way where like I think he was the first non Jokic Murray Nugget to put up 20 at any point in the series. So far that stuff you can take away and certainly we've seen Go Bear act like make Jokic's life a living hell enough to know that it's not always going to be like this. It's always going to be as free flowing as it was for the Nuggets here.
- [38:50]
A
I think Randall has to just have one huge game and you could see them kind of toying with are there ways that we can get him switched onto smaller players? Like can we run an IO Randall pick and roll? A Randall Bones pick and roll. Like something to just get us a lever to pull to draw help in the half court. There is something interesting when they have Conley and I when they have any two of Conley IO and Bones on the floor of like you feel and this is not new but it's now just more important. You feel the change from kind of one alpha ball handler who's going to initiate everything to the ability to move from one side to the other a little bit. And that I think is important. And then Naz Reed. It's so interesting how they use them, how they use him. We're going to see them play the three big guys together more. We saw that. We saw Kyle Anderson and two big guys more because two of their perimeter guys are out. They tend to use Nas Reed no matter who's on him, whether it's a bigger guy or a smaller guy as just like a gigantic guard. Like they'll run him off pin downs, they'll run him in pick and rolls. They'll have him run off flare screenshots. I like when they put him in the post against smaller players. That said, it's harder to do when like Randall and Gobert or Randall and Anderson like two pink cloggers are on the floor. But I Nas is going to have to have a big one. And you mentioned Gobert just I think one of the things I wanted to highlight how good he's been. I mentioned this with Bill that I'm sure you have noticed this that Jokic, his post touches are down and his roles to the rim on the pick and roll are really down because They've just taken away that floater and I thought it was interesting right away. He got one of those floaters last night, and I thought that was important. But they. Because of the way they guard Murray and how great Gobert has been, he's just not even trying to get to it very often. He's just popping out or hanging out around the perimeter and the Wolves are thrilled with that. And he's running way more pick and roll. And I looked it up this morning. Regular season, he ran 10 pick and rolls as the ball handler per 100 possessions. In this series, he's up to almost 15. And you could just see, like the Wolves are making them stretch their playbook as far as it goes because all their pet stuff for him is just not working. That said, at the end in sometime in the fourth quarter, it got a little dicey in the fourth quarter last night.
- [41:04]
B
It did.
- [41:05]
A
They ran like a cross screen for him when he had Nas Reed on him and he got a deep post touch and it was an easy and one like. I just don't understand whenever anybody but Gobert is on him and maybe Minnesota just has to tether Gobert to him more like, more permanently. I don't understand why he. They're just not feeding him in the post. He might just be tired, but those are times when he's got to eat. But I don't know, man, it's going to be interesting.
- [41:30]
B
Game six, you could see some of that stretching of the playbook you were talking about, too, just in terms of who the Nuggets were trying to involve in action. Right. It's like, it's one thing if Jaden McDaniels is on Jamal Murray. That's like the most scouted action in. In terms of what's going on in this series. The Jokic Murray stuff. I thought the Nuggets did a really good job in this game of mixing it up to where Cam Johnson, Spencer Jones, like, they were dragging instead of like, oh, let's bring Jaden McDaniels over to Nicola Jokic for this dribble handoff or pick and roll or whatever it was. Let's get Mike Conley in there. Let's get Bones Highland in there. Let's exploit some of those multiple guard lineups you mentioned.
- [42:04]
A
I like when Jamal Murray hunts those guys and posts them up and inverts the floor. I think that should be a weapon for them, too. Yep. I think this is a coin toss series now. It's also just a really depressing series given all the injuries well, Finn, let's take a quick break and then a couple more thoughts on this matchup. The Zach Lowe show is brought to you by FanDuel. The NBA playoffs are here and everything's on the line. Every possession matters. Every bucket swings the game and tonight is your shot to boost your bet. That's right, all customers get a profit boost tonight. So when the moment hits, your win hits bigger and FanDuel is giving you better payouts on same game parlays all NBA playoffs long. Lock in your bets, boost your odds and make the playoffs. Pay off with FanDuel, official sports betting partner of the NBA. Head to FanDuel.com low to get started. FanDuel play your game 21 over in select states or 18 and over in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Opt in required bonus issued is non withdrawable profit boost tokens gambling problem call 1-800-GAMBLER call 1-888-789-7777 or. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever get hit with a plan out of nowhere and need something asap? Maybe it's an impromptu basketball game, a last minute trip with the crew, spontaneous date. That's when prime same day delivery comes in. Get whatever you need deliver to you fast so you can say yes to the moment. Same day delivery. It's on Prime. Visit Amazon.comprime to find millions of items delivered fast available in select areas. Terms apply. I have two very important takes from this game that are just. You have to hear them. Number one, if a player on the other team, Jada McDaniels, calls out, your entire team basically said you're all bad at this part of the game. They're all bad. Everyone's bad. They're all bad. And you dunk on that player, you get to point at them without getting called for a technical foul. I understand the refs have to make sure there's no altercation. That's good. Christian Brown pointed at Jada McDaniels and got teed up. You he should have carte blanche to point at Jada McDonald. You should be able to grab his crotch and point to Jada McDaniels after what Jada McDaniels said. And I love that Jada McDaniels said it. Bad. Technical.
- [44:21]
B
Boo.
- [44:21]
A
No fun.
- [44:22]
B
I think we need to broaden it out, Zach. I think we just need to open our hearts to taunting again. Period. I don't care about the altercations. I think if you, if you score in any way on somebody, you get two seconds to do or say basically Whatever you want. Short of like punching someone. I just have a lot of allowance for basically any taunting.
- [44:39]
A
If, if Jamal Kane had run into the stands and chugged the fans beer and run back onto the floor, I would have been like, great. No technical foul. The game. Game continues.
- [44:48]
B
Let's keep it moving.
- [44:50]
A
Take number two. I'm really now going to sound like Abe Simpson yelling at a cloud. In the second quarter of this game, Bruce Brown led a four on one, not a two on one, not a three on one. A four on one with Julian Strother on the right wing, Cam Johnson on the left wing, and Tim Hardaway Jr. Running the lane kind of with him. And Bruce Brown picked up his dribble on the pickaxe on the Denver Nuggets logo and passed to Cam Johnson for a three that the basketball gods were never going to let go in. There was a breeze that came in, blew it off course. We need an intervention with these fast breaks that end in three pointers instead of layups and dunks. It was a four on one. I, if I were the David Adelman, I would have find Bruce Brown for making that pass. I would have find Cam Johnson for taking the shot.
- [45:40]
B
Well, I would say that the, the world found its equilibrium later in this game when Cam Johnson was leading a three on three. Break. Got a slight step. And you could tell Cam Johnson has spent days, like looking in the mirror telling himself to let it fly, telling himself to be more assertive when he gets back on the court, because that dude just barged down the lane and dunked when Cam Johnson a couple of days ago would have definitely kicked it out to Tim Hardaway Jr. So I'll all do credit to Cam, who I felt like really came to play for this one.
- [46:08]
A
He did. Okay, fine. He gets. It's neutral. He gets. He doesn't have to pay a fine, but he doesn't get anything extra. Bruce Brown gets fined, also gets fined for shaving the good part of the Fu Manchu mustache that he had just last thing on Denver. I'm not going to, I'm not going to just shut the window. I want to see how this ends and what they do in the off season. But man, 2021 and 2022, those lost years, those hurt. If you play out the NBA 50 times on a computer simulation in 2021, 2022 or 2024, I bet they get one of those rings and the entire conversation about Jokic is different and Murray is different and like, it's a different. But guess what? They didn't they didn't get either of them. And in 2024, that Minnesota series, it's a great win by Minnesota and clearly they, they are now have the upper hand in this matchup by the tiniest of margins. Game two, that's the Nuggets lose the first two games at home and completely unravel and let go of the rope in game two. That's the Jamal Murray throws the heating pack on the floor game. And then game six, when they go up three, two. They just punted the game in Minnesota. They lost by, I think, 45 points. They clearly were like, we have game seven at home. We're fine. You cannot do that in the playoffs. You can't punt a game no matter how good you think you are, what your lead is, especially if it's three, two. And then they blew a 20 point lead or whatever in game seven at home. They will ruin the day because they would probably beat in Dallas, the next round certainly, and then finals against Boston is interesting. Okay, can I throw in one more
- [47:41]
B
thing about this series before we move on, Zach?
- [47:43]
A
Absolutely. That's why you're here.
- [47:45]
B
Jamal Murray, I thought, had like a good game. Not an exemplary Jamal Murray game, but a very necessary one. And I thought just. He just fought like hell at a time where that's exactly what Denver needed. And in particular, there was a sequence in the third quarter where he was driving, he lost his footing. He just like had to throw the ball away as he was falling to the ground. And he got up like three times on one possession to get into a scrum for a loose ball to disrupt. The Wolves in the back court, ended up drawing a foul on the play. It's like, at the risk of belaboring the, like, the playoffs are about getting off the mat metaphor here, like, this is genuinely what the Nuggets needed in this sort of moment, was like that sort of resilience, that sort of energy. And I want to salute Jamal Murray for it.
- [48:27]
A
Yeah, it's. It's just the playoffs. I mean, you can feel the urgency of all these games. We'll talk about Toronto and Cleveland later. I mean, the, the effort level that Scotty Barnes is putting forth on both ends of the floor in that series. I mean, I'm exhausted watching it. Okay. Orlando, Detroit, the Magic, who spent the entire year farting around using injuries as an excuse, having passive aggressive, not even passive aggressive, aggressive aggressive coach player back and forths are up 31 over the 60 win. Feel good Detroit Pistons. We talked about Jamal Kane. We talked about the blood. We Talk like there was a sequence with like three and a half minutes left where Jalen Suggs got a break, like broke full court pressure basically and went right at Isaiah Stewart at the rim at full speed and tried to dunk on Beef Stew, who had eight blocks last night. He was insane and that was one of them. And then there was like a 22nd period where the entire game just blacked out and everybody was on the floor. And there were like four more attempts to dunk on Isaiah Stewart, none of which were successful. People were falling over. Robbie Humble on the broadcast just went, oh my goodness. And then Detroit got the ball and Tobias Harris missed a wide open three. Danis Jenkins then missed another wide open three. Kate Cunningham missed a pretty easy floater by his standards when the Magic went over a pick and the Pistons did not make a basket, a field goal for like five straight minutes in the game until garbage time. And now they are on the ropes. The Magic and The Pistons rank 15th and 16th out of 16 playoff teams in offensive efficiency. This has been a defensive, physical, nasty series. Detroit has home court. This is where you, if you're down three one, it helps to have five and seven at home. How can they get back into this series, Mr. Mahoney?
- [50:16]
B
I thought the most successful stuff they were doing by far offensively was anytime they were able to clear one side of the floor for a pick and roller dribble handoff, it was like, oh my God, the seas have parted. There's actual flow to this offense whether it is leading to a Jalen Duran dunk on the roll or a kick out to like a very good clean three for an actual shooter. That stuff is really good if you can get to it more. And that's so much easier said than done. That is a route to good offense. It's just so hard when you have multiple non shooters on the floor. And so I think the answer honestly might be that some of these guys just have to play less. Like Asar Thompson is a great candidate who is so important to their defense in theory is one of the best defensive players in the league this season. I don't think he has registered a positive impact overall in terms of his time on the floor. Like Jalen Suggs ability to play free safety off of him has been so disruptive.
- [51:06]
A
It's why they can't enter the ball to Jalen Duran when they every kid during pick and roll.
- [51:11]
B
And like I love Assar, I love the, the high drama of the rebounds he's pulling down in the series is unbelievable. Like he's making plays that other people can't make, but he's also forcing everyone around him to have to make similarly exceptional plays basically all the time.
- [51:29]
A
It's. It. He's astonishing to watch when he gets up there. But, yeah, I mean, look, this is. This is a Detroit Nightmare scenario, and one that, like, was not altogether surprising in that they don't have enough secondary creation, they don't have enough shooting, and they have very stark trade offs on their roster. To wit, their offense looks just way looser and better when Duncan Robinson is the one running off those empty side pin downs and just involved over here on the other side of the floor drawing attention. And the Magic are hunting him so relentlessly. And I thought hunted him in very smart ways last night. Smarter, like, more precise than they had been in the previous three games. That JB Biggerstaff was like, I just have to take you off the floor and go with Caris Levert, who's a better defender, but not in the same universe as a shooter. And then Caris LeVert came out. They hunted Caris LeVert too. Like, they're like, all right, if that's the weakest link, we'll hunt him. Then they brought Dennis Jenkins in and they just. This is what we all feared about Detroit, is that they can't decide who to play down the stretch. And the offense, defense, trade offs are so stark. But I agree with you, like, they just have to. It's hard, man. The Magic are a big, nasty, physical team, and they're. They're slowing everything Detroit wants to do down. It's hard. It's hard for them to execute anything. They just need to introduce a little bit more dynamism into things. I thought in game. In game three, when they hunted, you know, game. Game two, rather, I thought they'd been better at, like, hunting Desmond Bain and hunting Paolo Banquero. Like Cade doesn't. You don't have to stop when they switch the first pick and roll And Wendell Carter Jr. Is on you. And you can't enter the ball to Duran because there's a swarm on him. You can go find another matchup. You can run a second pick and roll like, you just got to keep it moving a little bit more. And it's just. But it's hard to keep it moving when everyone on the other team is giant and. And really engaged on defense very much so.
- [53:22]
B
I do wonder if there might be, like, a little avenue if Franz ends up missing actual games in this series and not just having to sit at the end of this one, with all due respect to Jamal Cain, who I thought did a really good job on Kate Cunningham in particular. But Franz is easily their best defensive option against Cade in terms of the size and activity he provides. He also does something really important, which is as Detroit is trying to get into these, like, okay, we're going to run a couple of layered pick and rolls to create that open side action. Sometimes they have to switch their way through it. And Franz's ability to guard a Jalen Duran is just totally different than what you're getting from Kane. And so it's like, you know, Window can kind of like, hang on Cade with help for moments at a time, and Franz can hang in the middle with a big. If you need him in that situation, Everything just gets a little more difficult if you don't have his size in particular in the mix. And so I wonder, with enough of this, like, misdirection, if Detroit might actually be able to make some inroads that way.
- [54:18]
A
I wouldn't write Detroit out of this series yet. I think that's premature. They have home court. They're shooting 27% on threes, which they're not a good shooting team. But do you figure that. Do they have a game in another game in them when they shoot? They missed good looks last night. Like, Tobias Harris missed a bunch of good looks. Duncan Robinson missed some really good looks, including one where Asar Thompson, to your point, made himself much more useful off the ball by setting a flare screen that got Duncan Robinson wide open. And, like, that's the kind of stuff that Detroit's going to have to do more in addition to just, like, slipping to the rim even harder. There was a point in game, too, where Duran, like, stopped even setting screens. Like, he would come and come into the area where he would set a screen and then sprint out of it to the rim. And they found him a couple of times, and then he found a Sar Thompson a couple of times. Like, they just need a little bit more of that. And they have it. They have it in him. And their defense has been, like, awesome. Detroit's defense has been legitimately awesome in the series. Interesting subplot to this. What does Detroit do in the off season if they lose this series to address the shortcomings that we all worried about that have come to fruition will obviously be a big storyline. You know, I think. I don't know. They've made the parallel. Someone has made the parallel. Maybe Bill to Oklahoma City. Like, let's get a taste of the playoffs first and Then, okay, giddy, it didn't work. Let's make the move now. Detroit is not where Oklahoma City was as a team and as a core. But if that's the parallel, then okay, you've learned a lesson. You do have to do something. You have to do your version of that, whatever that is. And that's interesting. And Jalen Duran is going to make all. I don't think this has ever happened before in the history of the supermax rule. He's going to make all NBA. I would be very surprised if he doesn't. The voting is closed. The ballots are in. Finalists are being announced. Yeah, he's going to make all NBA and be eligible for up to 30% of the cap instead of 25% of the cap. I'm not sure we've had a player in this age cohort like the restricted free agency guys, not the veteran guys who become eligible for the supermax and their team is like, we don't even want to offer you the regular max. Like, can we? Like, it's going to be a very interesting negotiation because he's had a nightmarish series, just absolutely nightmarish. Once they took away his roles to the rim, he has not been able to figure out any other way to really get involved.
- [56:48]
B
Well, he doesn't have any in between game that doesn't rely on just like brute strength, being able to power through people and Wendell Carter's not having that. And the Pistons don't have enough space for him to create any momentum actually going to the basket when he tries to like catch and face up an attack. And so then you end up with these possessions where he like tries to attack Wendell Carter and can't even get the ball out of his hands before it's blocked out of bounds. I'm still betting on Jalen Duran and I feel like pretty good about the future of his game. He's super young. He's not there yet, but you can see like the germs of a mid range jumper, the germs of an off the dribble game. That could be more interesting and a little bit more dynamic.
- [57:26]
A
He's very young.
- [57:28]
B
He's super young. Like I look, I don't want to give him a supermax contract. Like I think that could really burden the books in a way that could be counterproductive for the Pistons. But he's still a guy I feel good about despite everything that's happening in the series. And frankly, if it was any team other than Orlando, I just don't think this would be happening on quite the same level.
- [57:45]
A
It's interesting that Ron Holland is out of the rotation. They've just concluded we can't play another non shooter. I've always liked Marcus Sasser. I'm just, he just never seems to get any traction. And Herder will, you know, herder one of Herter or Lavert gets the you play the first half and then not the second half treatment. Every one of these games someone threw out the idea of like should they trade for Zach Levine in the off season.
- [58:11]
B
I don't mind that.
- [58:12]
A
You don't mind that. I, I mean he only has one year left on his contract. That would be. That would be the argument.
- [58:18]
B
Well, I am, I am historically like a we can fix him Zach Levine guy. So like I'm just waiting for him to put him to end up on a team with real defensive infrastructure and actual playmaking. And lo and behold, the Detroit business do have those things.
- [58:31]
A
Yeah, I mean they're. They didn't do much of anything at the trade line other than the Herder trade. And we knew that was kind of small potatoes compared to the Lowry marketing dreams we all had at the beginning of the season. But the time will come for them. But I wouldn't count them out of the series yet. Any closing thoughts on this series where no one has really covered themselves in Glo? Like Bankero was four of 18 last night. It felt like he was bullying and he got a lot of free throws. But like man, it's not. It's not. No one is really making a lot of baskets.
- [58:57]
B
No one's making a lot of baskets. But in lieu of that, I will take the beef stew block parade and especially Isaiah Stewart. There just is not a more dramatic shot blocker out there because he literally has to hurl himself into the air to contest these shots in a way that makes me scared for his like physical health on a moment to moment basis. But boy is it fun to watch.
- [59:19]
A
Okay. Also indeed, the winner of this series will face the winner of Toronto Cleveland. That series is 2. 2. The human brain is vulnerable to dumb things, I feel. I picked Cleveland in seven, so I thought that this would be a tough series for them. The way they won the first two games felt to me like, okay, this is Cavs in five. Like you're the kind of team that goes to Toronto and gets one. Yep. And they didn't get one. Game three was not particularly close and game four they had. And then a series of events took place that included an 8 second violation, a bizarro Donovan Mitchell attempt at the end of the game that was perfectly defended by Colin Murray Boyles. Thank God the refs did not call a cheap, stupid foul.
- [60:06]
B
Let me ask you this before we zoom past that in terms of implosive moments of these playoffs, which to you is the most embarrassing?
- [60:13]
A
Houston. It's not close. It's not close.
- [60:15]
B
Houston. More than this particular stretch from the Cavs in which a veteran team lost his collective mind or like that five minute stretch from the Pistons in which they literally could not hit a single shot.
- [60:26]
A
Yeah, there was. We have three very good candidates and the nominees are Tobias Harris, Dennis Jenkins and Cade Cunningham for missing 17 Open looks. Jabari Smith Jr. And Reed shepherd for meltdown turnovers.
- [60:42]
B
Good lord.
- [60:43]
A
And it would just be. This would just be called the James Harden award for playoff meltdowns. And for the seventh straight year, James Harden and. But what else happened? Let me think about. There was the eight second violation. Harden and Mitchell missed threes.
- [60:57]
B
Yes.
- [60:58]
A
Like one. The one possession where Evan Mobley got a bunch of offensive rebounds. What else happened?
- [61:03]
B
I believe there's a missed Donovan Mitchell runner. That's like a normal playoff shot for him. But it was like. I think it was the, it was the turnovers and really in particular that Jamal Shed, Deion sanders like layout 8 second violation that. I know, I know there have been great dunks. I know there have been great shots. Honestly. Might just be the coolest single play of the postseason so far.
- [61:22]
A
How about the two plays earlier in the game that I will always remember? Donovan Mitchell intentionally fouling Scotty Barnes at the end of the third. Was it the third quarter? I think it was the like to do it was obviously a mistake. Like the rest of the players on the team were like what the fuck did you just do?
- [61:38]
B
They were in the bonus. Right.
- [61:40]
A
Scotty Barnes is an 80% free throw shooter this season. He only made one of two. I think there was that and then the James Harden one where he like lost his balance at half court and just fell backward like he looked like a gymnast falling off a balance beam. And just mid mid routine being like, I guess I'm falling off and there's nothing I can do about it. And it was a back and he looked at the ref like, you're just not going to bail me out with a foul. It's going to be a backcourt violation. This series is a dismal offensive series for both teams and Cleveland to be 22 after winning the first two games with Toronto having not had Emmanuel Quickley for the entire series. Nope. I think we're. This qualifies as a crisis moment for the Cavs who traded a 26 year old All Star point guard for a 36 year old All Star point guard with a checkered postseason track record and find themselves in a dogfight with a team that, I mean they're Toronto's good and they're presenting a lot of problems, but. So let's just start here. Yeah, how can the Cavs loosen up their offense a little bit more? Because right now their entire offense is Harden and Mitchell trying to hunt Brandon Ingram and RJ Barrett and like mostly taking step back jump shots while Evan Mobley and Jared Allen have done like nothing offensively in the series.
- [63:04]
B
I don't know an answer to this question that does not involve Evan Mobley and Jared Allen just being dramatically better through some form or another. And we can like you can do that schematically. And we saw moments where like okay, we're going to go to Evan Mobley against this very targeted mismatch and see what he's capable of. That kind of had diminishing returns. The like the persistent allowance that Jakob Poeltl is just going to be allowed to kind of switch around and be on the floor in this series feels like a real missed opportunity for Cleveland. Like they were so good going at him and I understand there's places you can hide him on the floor that make that more difficult, but really you just can't be in a space where the Raptors are getting more shots at the rim, more defensive rebounds, more offensive rebounds in the series. Like that's inexcusable because once you once you kind of like body out the Cavs bigs and challenge the Cavs ball movement. This is a team that does kind of implode and adding James Harden clearly doesn't really change that.
- [63:59]
A
The Cavs have taken 51 more threes than the Raptors through four games and are in a 22 series over the last three games.
- [64:07]
B
They're shooting like 29.6% on those threes because a lot of it is just like Mitchell and Harden at the end of the clock or early in the clock trying to bail out of possession. That's not going anywhere to your point.
- [64:18]
A
In the regular season, 30% of the Cavs three point attempts were pull up threes were off to dribble threes and that number stayed more or less the same when they got Harden in the playoffs, 41% of their threes are pull up threes. Their assist rate, the percentage of baskets that are Produced via assists has dropped from 65% in the regular season, which was around the league average, to 54% in this series, which is last in the playoffs. The Raptors through switching through doubling, through varying up their defense, through putting Scotty Barnes on either Harden or Mitchell almost every second that Scotty Barnes is on the floor and just denying them the ball. And I do think there are ways that now that Cleveland really knows that he's going to be, you know, top locking, like playing on top of Donovan Mitchell. They tried to use him as a backdoor cutter to use that against Scotty Barnes and Scotty Barnes, like, cool, you can cut back door. I'm just going to block a shot at the end. I would like to see like use Donovan Mitchell as a screener a little bit more because then you can screen Scotty Barnes and another Raptors defender at the same time. So there are, there are some levers that they can pull, but their offense is just completely mud and it's just you can't subsist on pull up threes. And the Raptors are not just giving them the Ingram and Barrett matchups, they're sending hard doubles sometimes they're hedging and recovering. They're mixing it up. But to your point about Pearl, They are guarding at the start of these halves, Mobley and Allen respectively. This all star front court with RJ Barrett and Jakob Pertle.
- [65:56]
B
Yep.
- [65:57]
A
And it's like Jared Allen can't post up RJ Barrett. We can't get one deep seal of RJ Barrett. And then Evan Mobley like discovered at the beginning of the second half on two possessions like, oh yaka Portal's guarding me. Like maybe I should try to ISO him and score. Then they just never did that again because they switched the matchups and put purdle elsewhere and Barrett on Mobley. It's like you can't post up rj but like, like we. You can't run pick and rolls at whoever pool is guarding and get like, get regular defensive rotations happening and get lobs like you just can't do any of these things. I don't understand.
- [66:29]
B
And not just you can't do them, you should do them every possession that he's on the floor. Like Jakob Hurdle has shown you on tape on the, on the court, he cannot handle this pick and roll coverage. Like he is not equipped to step up to the level that you need to contain James Harden and Donovan Mitchell. And yet he's just kind of like hanging out, being able to make impact plays even in the capacity that he was when it looked like he was on the verge of being played out of this series. I think that the Cavs are just at. I mean, I think you identified it with the crisis point, not just existentially, but even when you just think about who they want to be in these games. And the reason you hear from coaches and players as to why they don't do things like post up Jarrett against RJ Barrett is like, it's not who we are. It's going to take us out of the flow of what we do. It's going to be like a distraction almost from the game planned objectives of our team. The game plan objectives of your team are fucked. Like your offense is terrible right now. Deviate, please do deviate. They need to be digging into alternative options that don't look like traditional Cavaliers basketball but fit the needs of what this series demands.
- [67:31]
A
Also, Jared Allen can do that, and that is part of your game plan when you're actually playing well. Jared Allen's had a lot of big scoring games and it wasn't all just James Harden lobs and pocket passes in the pick and roll. He can duck in and get post ups against smaller guys. I just, they just feel a little rickety right now and I would expect them to win Game 5 at home, but I don't. I think this is going to be a close series and it just makes me a little nervous that they seem a little uncertain about who to play. And when. So Allen and Mobley have only played 51 minutes together in, in four games, so they're averaging 12 minutes a game. Mitchell and Harden have played 89 minutes together in four games, so they're playing together much more. So they have obviously much more trust in the two guards together than the two bigs. The Mobley solo minutes have been awful. They're minus 21. The Allen solo minutes have been good. They're plus 17. And then you have the, the Sam Merrill minutes were massive at the end of that game because they finally found a way to get him looks and they finally discovered a guy that could screen for Mitchell and Harden and the Raptors were scared to either double off of him or hard hedge and try to recover to him because he's such a good shooter and he, they didn't make him pay the price defensively and he held up fine against Ingram. I just wonder like, you know, can they replicate that Merrill game again? If not, can they get it from Strus? I liked when they briefly had Strus, Wade and Tyson out altogether. Like there's a lot of ranginess in that lineup, but just they can't figure out when to play the two bigs and who the other guy, the wing guys on the court should be. But it's.
- [69:21]
B
It's interesting, especially because the Raptors are a good defensive team and a really active defensive team, but they're not unimpeachable. We saw all throughout the regular season times in which they would go completely overboard selling out for turnovers. Their positioning would be all over the place. They, like, weren't connected in the way that great, great, great defenses are connected, but you have to give them something to chase in order to throw them off kilter like that. I think that's part of the reason why not just Sam Merrill hitting shots, but that gravity was so important. Just like, literally a distraction from the simplest execution of their offense. I think can pry some things loose
- [69:54]
A
for Cleveland if they lose this series and Detroit loses their series. I think it's like a far bigger disaster for the Cavs than it is for the Pistons, just based on the track record of this roster in the playoffs. The asset cost of upgrading 10 years in age to get James Harden like Detroit. Look, I can swallow this if that's what it ends up being. It's a young team, and we're still figuring out what we have in some of our young guys. If Cleveland loses to the Raptors in the first round, anything to me is on the table. Like, literally anything.
- [70:26]
B
It.
- [70:26]
A
It just. It would be an intolerable result. Toronto's offense is not, like, lighting it up. Is there anything you think they can do to loosen up? I mean, this is a team that doesn't shoot threes very well, and we all know the issues. Like, anything else they can do other than, like, Colin Murray. Boyles is unbelievable.
- [70:42]
B
Yeah, I mean, he is genuinely unbelievable. I mean, they don't really have the personnel to move around a lot of things offensively, especially without Quickley. Like, they're already jammed in terms of ball handling. I don't really see a lot of avenues there. Are you seeing any, like, obvious levers for them to pull?
- [70:57]
A
No. I mean, other than their best offense in a lot of their. In a lot of Game four was just Scotty sprinting up the court as fast as possible and just sick.
- [71:06]
B
By the way, it worked really, really
- [71:07]
A
well and hoping no one is paying attention. Like, and I am a little surprised that they haven't been able to, like, have Scotty punishment Harden and Mitchell a little bit more, but they just haven't been able to get those switches because the Cavs are helping away from all the shooters that they don't worry about and the Cav should probably help even more. That's another thing the Raptors that they take like an extra step away from all the shooters you don't trust into the paint. Yeah, this Game five is a really exciting. It's not going to be pretty. It's not going to be an attractive watch, but it's very exciting.
- [71:42]
B
All right, let's take do you think if you had to guess game five, do you think we get closer to the Raptors have both the single game high water mark for 3 point percentage in this in these playoffs and the single lowest one that's 61% and 13%. Do we get closer to a hot Raptors game or a cold Raptors game?
- [71:59]
A
I'm going to go cold Raptors game, but normal cold like 31%. That's 29%. And then it's a win. And then it's a winnable game.
- [72:07]
B
I mean a 13% is a winnable game apparently.
- [72:09]
A
I know. That's just unbelievable. All right, let's take a quick break and wrap up with a couple more topics. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. One minute the crowd's cheering, the next the scoreboard flips. Sports are full of surprises and life isn't much different. That's where State Farm comes in with their easy to use digital tools and over 19,000 local agents who can help you call the right play. Because when you know someone's ready to assist, you have the confidence to take on the unpredictable like a good neighbor, State Farm is there with the assist. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Price and eligibility vary by state. This episode is brought to you by Men's Wearhouse. So you've looked at all the data, you've looked at your lineup and yep, you need to freshen up your wardrobe. So check out Menswearhouse. They've got you covered for every occasion with a huge variety of clothing and styles. From tailored clothing like suits, sports coats, dress shirts, tuxes for more formal events to casual clothing like polo shirts, shorts and jeans for everyday wear. The Men's Wearhouse experts can help you find the right look. While their on site tailors guarantee your clothes have the right fit for your body. Men's wearhouse has over 600 locations nationwide. They are here and nearby when you're ready to love the way you look. All right, let's bid farewell to the Phoenix Suns who got swept out of the playoffs by the Thunder not unexpected at all. Really feel good season for the Suns Culture reset. A lot of tough hard playing dudes won one more games than reasonably expected and just a fun watch all the way around. Here's where we are with them going into the off season. They are right at the salary cap without any money for Colin Gillespie who I think they would love to bring back definitely or Mark Williams who I don't that didn't really after after a nice start to the season it's kind of not looking great. I don't think he's going to have much of a market in like I don't think anyone is rolling out the brink Struck and restricted free agency for Mark Williams but they traded two likely bad first round picks for him but something but still and Dylan Brooks is extension eligible. I think they would like to get something done with him. I mean they just don't. I don't know where the optionality is for them. They don't have a lot of they don't control their pick until 2032. They do have a pick in 2027. It's the worst of a whole bunch of teams but they don't control their pick for a long long time. Model watch could be interesting. Yeah, I like Fleming. I was a little surprised he didn't play at all in the series until garbage time. I don't know what's the roadmap for this team Rob? Is this just like are they just stuck in sort of. All right, we're going to be like a decent team with Devin Booker and like in the same conference as these other teams. That's probably what we're going to be sadly.
- [74:57]
B
I think so. For his I think you're spot on. This is a super fun season to watch and a really impressive one in a bunch of different ways. And maybe one of the signature like breakout takeaways is like Jordan Ott can really coach like that. That was a really good hire for them. But short of that there's not a lot of high end talent just kind of waiting to pop. Malawaj, I agree, has had really nice moments. I'm not even sure he's going to be like a good productive winning player next season necessarily. He looks so raw. Even still Jalen Green is just like so definitively not that guy and so the roster they have is kind of the roster they have. There's going to be incremental progress from, you know, your Oso Gadaros and guys like that. But overall I just don't see what the launch pad is here in terms of how the Suns get dramatically better than this. Like they already kind of overachieved relative to what they have. And the cute underdog plucky story plays a little bit differently when you pay Mark Williams and you pay Con Gillespie and now you're a luxury tax team.
- [75:52]
A
I'm not sure they're gonna have to pay Mark Williams that much. With apologies to Mark Williams agents, I think, look, if the lottery rules are changed to the point that being in the middle is a little bit more profitable, I think Suns fans would happily accept. Look, we dug a deep, deep hole with the Durant trade, and it's going to be very hard for us to make any kind of massive impactful move that vaults us up to the top top in our conference, which is just too good. But if we're a competitive, fun team and we maybe get lucky in the lottery one year, not number one, but maybe we move up a little bit. Whatever it is, like that's. And Fleming pops, that's not a terrible outcome. But to your point, like Ryan Dunn basically couldn't play in this series. I think he's all right, but they didn't play him. And I thought Bradley Beal was really productive off the bench, making $19 billion a year for the next four years.
- [76:43]
B
He gave them something that, like a little. A little je ne sais quoi, you know, like something a little indefinable. But I think it was really important.
- [76:49]
A
I like Iguidaro. The interesting One is Jalen Green. 36 million next year. 36 million player option in 2728 also extension eligible. I would be just based on no intel at all. I would be pretty surprised if they had an extension for Jalen Green. Weird season. Did not play much in the regular season because of injury. He averaged 18 points a game on 42% shooting, 31% on three playing, which disappears from the record and doesn't count. Apparently he was great. And then in the playoffs, 22 a game, three assists, three turnovers. Almost an exactly even assisted turnover ratio. 39% shooting, 21 on three. I don't know. I don't. I don't. It seems like just a mulligan of a season, but every game that he plays, I thought he. I thought his defense and activity was a little tougher and a little bit more on point. Maybe you disagree than it has been in the past.
- [77:45]
B
I think that's fair.
- [77:46]
A
But every time he has a good game, it just feels like he's just making the same hard shots that he's just normally not going to make this many of. And I don't really know what to do with him at this point.
- [77:58]
B
I feel like I do know what to do with him and it's. I would not feel trusting the future of my team to a construction where he is a critical part of it. Like he's entered into that zone of player where the more you rely on Jalen Green, the worse off your team is ultimately going to be. So he's fine for now. He's certainly productive in the capacity that he plays. I'm with you that he's had moments. Certainly not just like breakout productive playing games, for example, but even kind of micro moments within them of exercising some demons of like, this is the guy who, you know, when the Rockets were playing the warriors, like couldn't break down Steph Curry one on one to save his life in critical games. And all of a sudden he's having some of those kind of like opportunities again and he's making the most of the thing that he kind of struggled with last time around. I just don't trust the larger body of work. I don't trust the decision making. I just think he's a guy who scores a little bit and that's nice, but ultimately doesn't give you a lot else to his game. And if we're talking about like slight upticks on defense as the saving grace of his season, I just don't think that's enough.
- [78:57]
A
Yeah, I mean, look, to, to your point about trusting him as a cornerstone, you can't do that. Which is why I would be shocked if the Sun's offered him any kind of contract extension that he would ever accept. Yeah. And then, you know, I just don't know what his trade value is at this point. And so maybe I just like, maybe this year is a mulligan. Yeah, I'm happy of the glimpses of. Oh, that was a he. I can't remember which game it was. At one point in this series, maybe in one of the playing games, he made a pass on the pick and roll that it was like he kept his dribble alive and made like kind of a wraparound pass to a big guy, but it was like really well timed and I was like, I don't think I've ever seen him make that pass before. And then you go five games without seeing a pass near that quality. But he has these glimpses where if I'm the Suns, I'm like, you know what if he has not much trade value, let's Roll it back next year and see what happens. I'm happy with how he's adapted to our culture, but, yeah, I don't know what the roadmap is, except this was a fun team. I enjoyed watching them Suns like Dylan Brooks was a lot of fun just getting into Frakuses. A lot of Frakuses. There's been a lot of Frakuses in these playoffs so far. Every Nuggets Wolves game is going to have a. A Frakus and not a curfew.
- [80:09]
B
You know, there's. There's a lot of agita in the air.
- [80:12]
A
Oh, what did you think of the. I. I haven't listened to group chat yet this week. Have you addressed the jokic going at McDaniels unwritten rules thing?
- [80:19]
B
I mean, embarrassing. Like, my, my general take is like, don't get blown out and you don't need to worry about this stuff. So I'm, I'm glad that the Nuggets responded. I mean, for one, like, yeah, all the crowd in Denver should absolutely boo James and you should be able to taunt him as we, as we address with Christian Brown when the time is right. But what are we doing? Like, I don't think Jokic can play that game the way he did. And frankly, the Nuggets embarrass themselves in the way they did and still have that moment at the end. Absolutely not.
- [80:48]
A
I will once again, as I did on Sunday, throw all my praise to Mike Conley, who threw the pass to Jada McDaniels when he did not have to throw the pass at all. And I think he knew. Yeah, I think he knew. Let's see what happens. See what happened. I'm going to disturb the shit a little bit. I'm going to be a shit disturber. Let's instigator Mike Conley, he injured Chris Finch. Remember that? He was the reason Chris Finch was on the little wheelie thing for a little while. You know, I'm just saying he did.
- [81:16]
B
I saw that as, as after Jade McDaniels was getting booed every time he touched the ball in Denver. I saw he had a quit after the game. There was something to the effect of like, whatever hate you felt there, you're going to get 100 times the love when we get back to Minnesota. And that's why Mike Conley's one of the goats.
- [81:30]
A
That's.
- [81:30]
B
That's why he's the teammate that I would want.
- [81:33]
A
Oh, and Jada McDaniels wants all of the smoke with everybody. He wants to fight everyone. He wants to get in. Everyone said, no, I'm with you. I just was like, I thought it was loser behavior by the Nuggets to whine about it, by David Adelman, by Jokic, by everybody. It's a layup, man. He didn't dunk. He didn't hot dog it. He didn't showboat. He didn't take the ball from anybody. He didn't get a steal. He didn't, you know, he just like someone passing the ball and he like gently laid the ball up and in. No one would have remembered it. No one. I don't think anyone really would have thought much about it had they not made a big deal out of it. And Jokic made a big deal out of it. Okay, last thing. Very quickly, I said, let's each pick two winners and two losers from the playoffs. So far, I'm in a good mood today. Rob, why don't you pick a winner?
- [82:16]
B
I want to say, first off the top, we just did an extensive bit about the spurs as one of the definitive winners on group chat. Just based on the way that the bracket is broken, the way they've played, I'm going to put them off to the side that feels it doesn't need to be said any further. I'm gonna actually start with the Raptors regardless of what happens in the series because I've just been so emboldened by Scotty Barnes and Colin Murray Boyles as tent poles of what this franchise can be. And getting Scotty to show up in big game, big wing fashion of like, looking kind of unguardable at some particular moments in time, being one of the best defensive players in the world at the moment, he feels like a tent pole guy that even when I was considering him for third team all NBA, I wasn't quite sure where his career was going to net out. But him delivering in these games and Colin Murray Boyles turning into not just an elite defensive prospect, which he has been from the second he stepped on an NBA court, but his confidence growth as a finisher from day one of the regular season to now needs to be studied in a lab. I don't understand what happened. This guy who, like, wouldn't even take layups, he was so spooked of shot blockers. And now he's going up against Evan Mobley, against Jared Allen, against all these guys, Zero fear in his eyes whatsoever. And so if my franchise is banking on those two guys, after what I've seen through these first four games, I feel really good about the future of
- [83:35]
A
the Raptors really exciting part of the. The reticence for him to shoot around the rim, which was like. Like almost yipsy in terms of. He would get the ball and be like, is he. Is some going. Is this like Rick and Keel? But for a big man, he had a thumb injury that was messing with his mind, I think, and that appears to. He appears to be over that. But, yeah, if you give him. He's doing the thing where, you know, Evan Mobley slides a little bit off of him to. To load up on somebody, and you pass it to Colin Murray Boyles, and he's got a little bit of space to eat up and go into Evan Mobley. He's going into Evan Mobley and through him and through Jared Allen. It's been super impressive. All right, I'm going to pick a winner. Let's see. I have a long list of potential winners. Jamal Mosley is a potential winner, definitely. Tim Connolly and Rudy Gobert are potential winners. I'm going to just go because we didn't talk about them much with Peyton Pritchard, who is just outrageously good and his extension eligible in the off season because of the extension rules. The most that the Celtics can offer him and it would not start until 20, 28, 29, I believe is something like three years and $70 million. Like, would he even take that? Like, it's a lot of money for a guy who hasn't made that much money, but it's just been flat out awesome. And when the Celtics have their four best guys on the floor, despite Derrick White shooting, cratering a little bit, I trust Derek White. They're just blowing people away. And it doesn't even matter if the big guy is Keda or Garza or Vuchovic. And their center rotations make me a little bit nervous. A little bit. There's a lot of uvic going on.
- [85:06]
B
There's Keita. Stop fouling people every second that he's on the floor.
- [85:10]
A
It's not going to help to play against Joel Embiid, but, no, there's just so much vouch going on that I'm a little bit unnerved by that. But between. Between Pritchard and Tatum being outstanding, I will call them my winners. Number one. Do you want to pick a loser now or do you want to pick a winner?
- [85:27]
B
I'll pick a loser. I'm going to circle back to the Rockets, who, again, even if they were to pull out, this series, would have to just be a totally different team than the one that we've seen. And I would say it's the combination of the KD mess coming to a head and that was his like weird disappearance in the middle of this series. The fact that what that disappearance evokes as far as the general state of the team, not great. The returns on all of these young players. I think like some have had their moments. You know, there's been encouraging again like little signs from Reed or from Amen or from Jabari. But overall you don't come out of the series thinking like this really is Ahmed Thompson's time, even though he's had some of those. And the offense overall has just been so putrid. Like the rockets have 70 more shot attempts in this series than the Lakers and they're getting smoked. I didn't even know that was possible. It just seems like a really hard thing to do. And I'm consistently impressed by I guess the way in which the Rockets are losing as much as anything.
- [86:25]
A
I mean last time I checked their offensive rebounding rate was like 44% and they were having. It's hard to rebound that many misses and still have a horrible offense and yet they are doing it. There are interesting parallels by the way, and this is a low hanging fruit thing to make, but between the Rockets and the Pistons with the Thompson twins just incorporating these unique talents who have just one massive glaring liability and happened to play on teams with very traditional paint bound centers and what that does to each team on each timetable. So to your point about winners and losers, I had Stefan Castle as one of my winners. I mean he hasn't shot it great from two, but he shot it well from three and just looked comfortable like, oh, you're gonna put your centers on me.
- [87:09]
B
No problem.
- [87:10]
A
Have a blast. This is going to be great. And I just. The Castle shepherd, what if in that draft is just going to loom so large if the Rockets get out of the next two seasons and discover like we're just not in the class of the Thunder and the spurs, that, that, that pick at three and four is going to loom large. But for my first loser, Kale Bridges, that TBD tonight I'm going to pick the Bulls. Just, just. There's just ex Bulls doing fun things all over the place. Notably in Minnesota where they just decided like hey, we have a good player. You know, would be really smart. Not having them on our team would be really smart. We don't. He's good. He's young. Yeah, he's productive. Lots of teams are calling him about us. Why, why, why is our phone ringing so much about I justum though, what
- [88:07]
B
if, what if instead of a really good player you could have like four second round picks? Wouldn't that be a better outcome for you?
- [88:13]
A
Yeah, but four psycho round picks gives us all kinds of optionality of the draft. We could package it. Okay, whatever. So I'll pick the Bulls as my first lose. So whatever. If you pick two winners and two losers already, are you out of things?
- [88:25]
B
I've done one and one. One winner, one loser. Let me go back to a winner. LeBron James, you may have heard of him.
- [88:31]
A
Yeah.
- [88:32]
B
A 41 year old superstar is giving his team a chance to get right again. To last long enough in the playoffs for Reaves to get back for hopefully to Luke, for Luka to get back. And within that, giving himself a chance to make another run at this thing where despite what LeBron's career would tell you, this is not an infinite resource. He only has so many playoff runs left and the fact that this one, which just weeks ago looked like it might be dead in the water, could actually really mean something. I think it's just a tremendous turn of events.
- [89:01]
A
Super impressive, Very fun to watch him. Just like Mark Jackson, Charles Barkley. How long are you going to let me back down? Like anyone on your team, like Tar Eason, you're pretty strong. I'll back you down. Amen Thompson, one in a million athlete. I'll just put you under the basket. And a walking nightmare for Reed shepherd, who against a lot of other teams could sort of exist against his own team, could sort of exist defensively. Like hiding over here and he's not involved in that play and like for 10 minutes you don't notice that he's hiding over here. Against LeBron, it's just relentless. It's every single position. Oh, you're on Rui. Now let's do something with Rui. Oh, you're on Marcus Smart. Now let me screen for Marcus Smart. It's just absolutely relentless and a nightmare. Reed shepherd must be going to bed. Just like why, why of all the
- [89:50]
B
teams do you think LeBron gets any extra satisfaction out of hunting these like shadows of Steph Curry guards? Any guard who comes in with a jump shot is like, you know what? Like let's just, let's just bring him up. Not only because I can, but because I would really like to.
- [90:04]
A
I think it's just, I think his, his brain and it's like a muscle reflex at this point. Like I, this was four straight finals. This is like 50% of our offense was this. And I'm Going to just, oh, I know. I remember how to do that. And now he's just older and meaner and it is more fun. All right, my second winner. You know, I mentioned Tim Connolly, Scoot Henderson in a bad game. Paul George is on my list. I'm going to go with Robert Williams. Time Lord, who has been absolutely essential on both ends of the floor to the Blazers to the point that there's a movement to start him over. Donovan clinging rightly so, and he's just been outstanding. I also tip of the cap to Dave Pash who was on play by play for their last game and obviously loves the nickname Time Lord because not only would he call him Time Lord, he'll call him the Lord of Time. He'll do that version too. He was a really good bench player all season. He just wasn't available very much. I just would love for him to have give me like a couple 60 game seasons because it's been a reminder that he's, he's really good and really impactful.
- [91:11]
B
I think for my last loser, I have to take Evan Mobley unfortunately on my list. On my list of all the questions that losing the series would raise. I think just like the indictments pointed at Mobley specifically as far as what mismatches he can't attack. Just going these two games and shooting like 30 something percent from the field against an opponent like the Raptors. Unforgivable for a big like him. Like at this point in his career, Evan Mobley should have a little bit more of a go to game. At this point in his career. He should be able to be at least a part time five in lineups that make sense. Neither one of those things has been true and he's just been completely bodied out of the series, completely worked out of this series. I'm a huge Evan Mobley booster generally speaking, but I can't, I can't defend this.
- [91:56]
A
It was to the point when he got those two big offensive rebounds late in Game 4 that led to two missed threes for Cleveland. I was like, oh, Evan Mobley, you're asserting yourself after being on the bench for almost the entire fourth quarter. Because the Cavs have concluded that right now Mobley Allen, like the spacing is just not like you're hanging around the perimeter because there's nowhere else for you to be and they're not guarding you there and your three hasn't come around and I'm with you. Like, look, the record will show I never uttered the words Kevin Garnett or Tim Duncan that's sacrilegious. You shouldn't say those words about any young big man. And I never did. But I've been very high on Evan Mobley. I've kept all my Evan Mobley stock through all the unfavorable comparisons that were made. I still would be hesitant to move him. But, like, this is. He is about to turn 25 years old and just melts away. In too many of these series where he, he shouldn't be melting away. He was on my list. Mikhail Bridges is too easy. I don't mean this in a bad way. I'm going to go with Chris Vernon and all fans of the Memphis Grizzlies who had to tune into that Magic Pistons game last night and see John Morant and Jaren Jackson Jr. One guy who's gone good trade return. Like, solid trade return, but, like, fun guy. We all liked him. And one guy whose future with the franchise is tenuous, to say the least, coming together in Orlando, Florida, to watch Desmond Bain, beloved Grizzly, play basketball for the Orlando Magic team. Morant was apparently there. I'm not sure where Marcus Soul was or Tony Allen or Hamed Haddadi.
- [93:36]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [93:37]
A
But, but also just to poke Chris Vernon a little bit, I will pick him as my, my other loser.
- [93:42]
B
I am enough of a SAP that this worked for me. Like sports, great teammates. They're great.
- [93:49]
A
I, it's, it's nice to see men supporting other men emotionally and, and, and all of that. I applaud all of it. Yeah. So they were on my, they were on my list of losers. All right, Rob Mahoney, what do we got next for you? We got group chat. We got Prestige tv. What are we doing on Prestige TV besides the Pit? I'm not going to watch the Pit. Give me something else.
- [94:10]
B
Well, rest assured, the Pit is over and I have just the show for you as a father yourself, Zach. How about Euphoria? You know, like, let's, let's really, let's really get into teenagers and now young adults behaving badly.
- [94:22]
A
I, I don't think I'm ready for that one. I don't think that one's going to be for me. All right, well, I'll give something else a shot then.
- [94:32]
B
Just the playoffs it is.
- [94:34]
A
But, yeah, honestly, we've reached a point of the first round where my brain at the end of every night is like, just images are swimming around it and it's very mushy, and it's like, why am I thinking about Mitchell Robinson right now? And just is where we're at that point. So first round is just like a fever dream. Rob Mahoney, you're the best. Thank you, buddy.
- [94:54]
B
Thanks, Zach. Appreciate it.
- [94:57]
A
All right, that's it for the Zach Lowe Show. Barring something insane, we will be back as usual on Thursday morning. Thanks to the great Rob Mahoney for his time. Thanks as usual to Mike, Billy and Jonathan on production. Thanks to you all for listening to and or watching on Netflix the Zach Lowe Show. We will see you on Thursday. 21 are over and President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over in President D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem, call 1-800- GAMBLER or 1-800-MY-RESET. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatincut or is it MDG in Maryland? Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 247 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPENY or text HOPENY in New York. For Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7867.