One Question for Each NBA Cup Team. Plus, Giannis Thoughts and All-Stars Picks With Tim Legler.

Summary

The Zach Lowe Show (The Ringer)

Episode: "One Question for Each NBA Cup Team. Plus, Giannis Thoughts and All-Star Picks with Tim Legler"
Date: December 8, 2025
Host: Zach Lowe
Guest: Tim Legler (ESPN)

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Episode Overview

On this jam-packed episode, Zach Lowe and Tim Legler break down the NBA Cup quarterfinals by asking one big question for each team, dive into the implications of Franz Wagner’s injury for the Magic, debate hypothetical Giannis Antetokounmpo trades, assess the state of the Cleveland Cavaliers, and pick their All-Star teams under the new U.S./International split format. The episode is filled with analysis of young stars, coaching decisions, trade rumors, and the ever-widening gap among contenders.

Tone: Analytical, humorous, NBA nerd-friendly, unfiltered basketball banter

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. NBA Cup Quarterfinals: Big Questions for Every Team

Orlando Magic: What Now After the Franz Wagner Injury?

• Wagner’s MRI awaited, potential for significant time missed.
  • Zach: "If it is bad, bad, like if he's out for the season, I think a team that could have made the finals potentially... can no longer make the finals." (04:04)
• Can Paolo Banchero carry the team solo? How does Banchero fit into the Magic’s successful recent “three-guard + power forward” lineups?
  • Legler: "We're going to have to find out: Is Paolo Banchero a franchise-carrying winning player?" (05:04)
• Stat to watch: Bane, Suggs, and Black three-guard trio: +54 in just 53 minutes together.

Toronto Raptors: Can Brandon Ingram Stay Healthy Enough?

• Surprise over their strong start; have slid back, now slumping.
  • Legler: “Is Brandon Ingram going to be upright all year...his track record says at some point something's going to happen.” (12:38)
• Concern over reliance on Ingram for half-court offense; doubts about sustaining a top-six seed without him.
• Toronto recently 23rd on both offense and defense during a 5-of-6 losing stretch.

New York Knicks: Right to Start Josh Hart? Can They Defend Well Enough?

• Hart as starter over Mitchell Robinson for defensive versatility, faster lineups.
  • Legler: "I like it better. It gives them more versatility defensively... Josh Hart's going to give you more." (16:13)
• Are Brunson and Towns as a defensive spine good enough to get through the East?
  • Zach: “If you are going all in with this... can you defend well enough with Brunson and Towns... to win the Eastern Conference?” (17:30)
• Debate over Max Kellerman’s “You can’t win a championship with a 6ft star” — Zach doesn’t buy it, points instead to context and team fitting.
  • Zach: "I just don't buy any absolutist reasoning like that... This is their team, they have to do it." (24:43)

Miami Heat: Can the Bam Adebayo–Khalil Ware Frontcourt Truly Work?

• Some data suggest mixed results; Lowe is “cautiously optimistic.”
• Legler: "One of the reasons I say it can [work] is because of how much faith I have in their head coach." (26:47)
• Spolstra's offense more watchable and potent thanks to Norman Powell, improved pace, added shooting.

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2. Big Picture: Giannis Trade Scenarios

• San Antonio, Houston, Knicks all discussed as dream Giannis landing spots.
• Spurs: Tempting to pair Wemby and Giannis, but “so healthy” as a young core, risks disrupting natural progression.
  • Legler: “There is some risk involved there... What they have right now is so healthy.” (46:32)
• Houston: Immediate push required with Durant on roster, would have to give up Sengun or Amen Thompson in a trade.
• Zach and Legler agree Sengun is the more “tradeable” asset, but parting with Amen would be terrifying.
  • Legler: "I would be terrified to trade Amen Thompson. Absolutely terrified." (42:18)
• The extension deadline and Giannis’ ability to leverage his destination are central to any deal.
• Also discussed: Would you go “all-in” to beat OKC now, or wait for their possible regression?

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3. Western Conference Questions

San Antonio Spurs: How Ready is Wemby for Playoff Dominance?

• Can he physically handle a playoff race/series—that’s the big question for now.

L.A. Lakers: Defense and Conference Finals Hopes

• Are they good enough defensively to make a run?
  • Legler: “Their defense is not going to be the reason... because of the personnel, it's just not going to be.” (50:56)
• Offense led by Luka, LeBron, and Austin Reaves as their path to playoff success.
• Zach notes: Team is “built to win close games,” inflating their record via clutch performance.

Oklahoma City Thunder: All-Time Greats?

• Could this be a 70+ win team?
  • Legler: "They're chasing being not just a champion, they're chasing being an all time great team." (58:36)
• If they go 75–7 AND win the title, would they be GOAT-caliber? Both agree: Yes, but “it’s always harder than people think.”
  • Zach: “If all those things happen, they will be in the conversation for greatest single season team of all time.” (59:48)

Phoenix Suns: Is This For Real?

• Team is more competitive and plays harder than the underwhelming prior years with Booker as clear alpha.
  • Legler: "You have a little bit more admiration for them because they were just this underachievement... This is different." (64:57)
• Colin Gillespie and Jordan Goodwin duo cited as “plus-50” in 248 minutes—deep cut stat of the year.

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4. Cleveland Cavaliers: Existential Crisis?

• Are injuries the only problem? Legler argues not; toughness, effort, and possibly a “playoff hangover” are major issues.
  • Legler: “I don't think they're that tough of a team and I don't think they play quite hard enough.” (70:05)
• Mobley at center isn’t making offense easier, Garland’s toe is a scary ongoing concern.
• Zach sees this season as “make-or-break” for the Cavs’ core.

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5. All-Star Selections – Navigating the U.S./World Formatting

• Both draft 12-man East and West All-Star Teams (split by U.S. and International quotas).
• East:
  • Locks: Cade Cunningham, Jalen Brunson, Jalen Brown, Tyrese Maxey, Donovan Mitchell, Jalen Johnson, Karl-Anthony Towns, Bam Adebayo, Franz Wagner, Giannis Antetokounmpo, Josh Giddey.
  • Main debates: Duren vs. Mobley, Norman Powell vs. Bam, Siakam’s under-the-radar value, snubs like Scotty Barnes.
  • Legler on Duren: "It would be very difficult to not reward Duren for the year Detroit's had." (79:12)
• West:
  • Locks include: Steph Curry, Kevin Durant, Anthony Edwards, Devin Booker, Chet Holmgren, Austin Reaves, Luka Doncic, Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, Nikola Jokic, Alperen Sengun, Victor Wembanyama, Deni Avdija.
  • The last spot comes down to Devin Booker vs. Jamal Murray; also brutal snubs include Lauri Markkanen, Julius Randle, James Harden.
  • Zach (on Jamal Murray over Devin Booker): "I look at the shooting percentages, I look at the injuries to Denver's starting five... I’m putting you in. Booker is a brutal omission." (85:15)

Fun All-Star Proposal:

• Zach’s “Rodman Spot” — One extra All-Star per conference, for sub-12 PPG, above-.500 role guys (e.g. Steven Adams).“To recognize a guy in that way that’s so important…but never going to have the kind of numbers" (92:02)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Zach (on Desmond Bane’s dodgeball play): “He chucked that ball at him like I wouldn’t… That was a fastball.” (11:33)
• Legler (on Banchero): “What we’re going to find out: Is Paolo Banchero a franchise-carrying winning player?” (05:04)
• Zach (on Kellerman’s ‘you can’t win with a 6-footer’): “I just don’t buy any absolutist reasoning like that… This is their team, they have to do it.” (24:43)
• Legler (on trading Sengun or Amen for Giannis): “I would be terrified to trade Amen Thompson. Absolutely terrified.” (42:18)

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Notable Timestamps

• Franz Wagner Injury & Orlando’s Outlook: 04:00–11:30
• Toronto’s Sustainability & Ingram’s Health: 12:11–15:40
• Knicks Lineup Debate & Defense Concerns: 16:13–24:50
• Miami Heat Frontcourt Fit: 26:47–29:45
• Giannis Trade Rumors & Team Fits: 35:27–48:30
• Lakers’ Defense and Contender Status: 50:56–56:10
• OKC Record Pace & Historical Comparison: 58:07–63:46
• Phoenix Suns’ “Guilty Pleasure” Status: 64:37–67:00
• Cavs’ Existential Season: 69:26–76:59
• All-Star Picks & Deep-Cut Proposals: 76:59–92:34

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Summary Flow & Engagement

This episode is a high-level state-of-the-league discussion disguised as a matchup preview podcast. The tone is wonky, candid, and occasionally irreverent, as Zach and Tim blend stats, chemistry assessments, and league inside chatter. Listeners get a full survey of the current NBA landscape—from the future of the Magic to whether the Thunder can crack historic records, the dilemma of early trades for Houston or San Antonio, and how rule changes (even in All-Star selection) are reshaping the conversation.

For NBA fans, especially analytic and narrative-minded ones, this episode functions as a must-hear check-in on what matters in the league right now: injuries’ ripple effects, the myth of “unwinnable” roster formulas, and why the next month will reshape who’s in the title conversation.

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For Further Listening

• Want deeper Giannis trade fits? Listen to Zach’s previous episode (Dec. 4, 2025) for a breakdown of more contenders.
• For advanced stat breakdowns and more “eyeball test” talk, check out Legler’s appearances on The Ringer NBA feed or ESPN.
• Keep an eye out for next week’s episode for All-Star selection updates and possible “Rodman spot” debate outcomes.

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Transcript

[A]

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Coming up on the Zach Glow show. It's Monday. A lot of stuff happened over the weekend in the NBA. More Giannis noise. Lebron's double digit streak is over. The NBA cup is coming up this week as a lot of other teams get some rest time. Tim Legler from espn, you know him, you love him. You love his iPad breakdowns. He is here to help me preview all four NBA Emirates cup quarterfinals games one by one. Big questions facing each team. We're going to talk Giannis. Yep, we're going to talk Giannis. We're going to talk. Some other weekend developments. Jonathan Kaminga got benched. The Bulls stink. Some other stuff happened over the weekend. He's going to pick his all star teams. I already picked my preliminary all star teams. I flip flopped one player already. We're going to see where we came out there and just talk all things NBA. Lots of stuff going on. It's going to be a good show. Tim Legler is the best in the business. Enjoy it. Coming up now, this episode of the Zach Low show is presented by Amazon Prime. The holidays are here and they move quick. Luckily, Prime's fast free delivery is your miracle play. Getting whatever you need there fast. Prime's fast shipping is always there for you during the holidays, especially when it's last minute and it just can't wait. From stocking stuffers to that perfect gift for the MVP in your life. It's on Prime. Head to Amazon.com prime to shop now.

Welcome to the Zach Low Show. It's Monday morning. Tim Legler from ESPN is here, the best in the business. He's helping us out at the ringer Spotify this year. Legs, what's going on?

[B]

I'm great, man. I'm great. It's, it's, it, it's that time of year, the holiday time of year for the NBA and it's, it's, it's an interesting time for me. Zach, because we have a long chunk without me calling games. So this is great. I get to, I get to make sure I'm staying dialed in by getting my work done with you. So I'm really looking forward to this.

[A]

A lot of stuff happened over the weekend. We're going to get to as much of it as we can. We had LeBron James double digit scoring streak ended in the most fitting possible way. Our guy Jonathan Kaminga got benched. Looking like it's over in Golden State. The lacrosse brothers, the Lax bros are taking over the NBA. The Spencer brothers in Golden State and Memphis, the Bulls stink and there's more Giannis stuff. But we're going to start. It's NBA cup week, the quarterfinals are this week. We're going to look at every game and I decided the best way to do it was pick a big question or a big issue or a big statement, one for each team, go game by game. We're going to start with Orlando, Toronto. You, you got your pick of teams in all the games. You picked Toronto. We have to unfortunately lead with Orlando. We don't know the MRI results for Franz Wagner. We will probably know. I'm guessing at the end of today it looked bad. And if it is bad, if it's bad, bad, like if he's out for the season, I think a team that could have made the finals potentially, given how wide open the east is, can no longer make the finals. That said, well documented legs. Orlando thrived when Banchero was out. Kind of trended a little smaller. A lot of three guard lineups with Franz at the 4, whipped the ball around more touches, all that stuff. Bankero came back for like a game and a quarter with Wagner and looked kind of like he had watched what had happened and was almost overly deferential at times. Franz ran all the offense in crunch time. In their Friday game against Miami. Palo seemed to be paying more attention to like spacing, where to stand, when to dart in, to the paint, when to set screens and all that. And you just got this vision of like, all right, maybe it'll all come together and just this franchise the last two years so snake bitten with these two guys getting hurt sometimes at the same time, sometimes at different times. I guess my question would be, look, Franz is. It will be a miracle if he doesn't miss a significant amount of time. And that's how it looked. Let's assume he misses a significant amount of time. For the sake of discussion. What are we going to learn from this? It can. Can they duplicate the way they played when Bankero was out with Bancaro in and Wagner out, are we, are we going to get to the end of this and say maybe they're actually better off with one and not both? Or is this going to look different because Bank Arrow is a different player than Franz Wagner? A guy who tends to hold it a little bit longer, take more long tues. Like how is this going to work? Legs.

[B]

Yeah, that's. Listen, I think what we're going to find out, what we're going to have to find out is Paolo Banchero a franchise carrying winning player. Because you know the guy's got immense talent. Really difficult matchup because of his combination of power and shooting ability and scoring. But he's definitely a different type of player than Franz Wagner. Franz Wagner is a guy that's like a lot more decisive with the ball. He's a better playmaker, he's got better vision, Bankaro better raw scorer. But Wagner is pretty damn good there as well. So they hum along when, when Bankera was out. They had an interesting year because last year, Zach, I had as much admiration for that team of the teams I saw in called games last year as any team in the league besides probably Oklahoma City because of how hard this team played. I'm like that guy Jamal Mosley is connected to this team because they will run through a wall to defend for him. They were top five in defense last year. They had both of those guys missed long periods of time with oblique injuries. It was really weird, like back to back oblique injuries. So they went a long time without playing together. They missed Suggs for the last two, three months of the season, their starting point guard and one of the best all ball defenders. And yet here they were at the end of the year like still there, head above water, like in the mix in the East. So I had a lot of high expectations for them. Again with what happened with Boston, Indiana, you just alluded to it a wide open East. I'm looking at Detroit, Orlando, Knicks, Cavs coming into the season, like those are the four teams I wanted to see and Orlando's really slow out of the gate. Desmond Bain was like not really in the flow. He wasn't having the impact I thought he would. And they were, they weren't, they weren't as good defensively. And you're kind of wondering like what am I looking at now? I didn't, I didn't. Some people, they kind of bailed on the Atlanta Magic. Oh and because Pancara is not what I thought he was and they're, they're not as good as I thought. I wasn't ready to do that. You got to get Bane time. You, you've got to be fully healthy. Their defense will come around. All those things started happening. They win 10 out of 14. They're climbing the rungs in the ladder in the east. And here they come and they're like, okay, this is going to be a formidable team. And now this. So now you go back to one star carrying your offense. The defense looks like it's righted itself. Now Ban Caro's got something he didn't have last year when Wagner was out. Desmond Bain, who has been hitting his stride. So I think we're going to learn an awful lot about Paolo Bankero for however long. Wagner's out and we haven't gotten word yet. I mean, do you think it's possible based on what you saw, like, are we going to get this, you know, is in an acl? Are we going to get Wagner's. Absolutely. Here.

[A]

I'm going to wait for the MRI results. You just, you know, sometimes you take these hard falls and it turns out there's no ligament damage, it's a strain or who knows? I'm like, obviously we all have our fingers crossed because I think Franz Wagner was a lock all star, playing the best ball of his career all around. Even the three, which was such an issue last year with the hitch and everything. He's up to 36%. He's taking the ones he should take. He looked absolutely fantastic.

Banchero, the Magic had been bad the last two seasons when he's on the court and Franz is off the court. To your point about Bane, I'm not wiping all those numbers away because it's a pretty substantial sample size. I'm, I'm pushing them to the side because so few of them involve Bain. Healthy Suggs, and now Anthony Black, who's leveled up. And if you look at the like, just the stat to keep an eye on those three guards together, Bain, Suggs and Black have only played 53 minutes the entire season. Together they are plus 54 in 53 minutes. That's like outrageous. The Bane, Black Tyus Jones trio is plus 26 in 102 minutes. The Magic have found something with three guards plus one of the power forwards plus a center. And I'm interested to see how Ban Caro kind of fits into that if he can play with a little more zip. Set screens, roll to the basket. He had to play in that Knicks game when Wagner was on the floor where he set a screen, slipped it slipped ahead of the switch, caught the pocket pass, drew the help, kicked to Wagner, who I think pump faked and then try to dunk on a closeout. That's the kind of zip he's going to have to play with. And I think he can do it, you know, Then you throw to Silva in there. I think the young guards will get a chance. Jet Howard and Jason Richardson have gotten chances here and there. I, you know, I'm. I'm interested to see if he can sort of wipe away those like Wagner off the court bank hero on the court numbers. It's just a shame because I think even if it goes great, if Wagner is out for the season and again, it's. If we don't know, we're all hoping for like a miracle. He's out for a month with a strained whatever. I do think this team had finals upside and I. No matter how well this goes, I don't think that's the case. You know, even with the east this open, with one of these two guys out for a prolonged period of time. I do have one more important question for the. About the magic for you. Did you see the Desmond Bain dodgeball play yesterday when he chucked the ball at OG Anunoby?

[B]

I did not. No. I didn't see that.

[A]

Oh, my God. You gotta watch this play. He. He gets the ball under the basket and he.

[B]

Oh, no, I did, I did. No, I did. On a highlight. On a highlight. I didn't see it live. I did see that highlight last night. Yes. That's. I mean, my goodness. Man, did he have to crank it up to that extent and drill him? That, that's. Listen, man, I. It may be a different era because that's a fight.

[A]

I'm sorry I've ever seen anything quite like that. Like, he was perfectly. On balance. You just could have taken the ball and turned up court. I've never seen anything like that.

[B]

No. I've never seen anybody throw a ball with that level of velocity, with that level of intent at somebody in that exact type of situation. There's no, no need for that whatsoever. Like I said, that's typically the kind of thing that's going to lead to a fight, you know, and OG took exception to it, but he didn't get nearly as heated as I would think a lot of guys would have in that same circumstance. And Bain's. Bain is a guy that. He does, he does get under guy's skin. He finds himself in the mix of some of these you know, confrontations with guys fairly often. And so that was to me maybe one of the most blatant things that he's done. And he got away with it. For all intents and purposes, he got away with it, but there's a lot of guys, I don't think he would have gotten away with it.

[A]

I just thought like I was laughing when it happened. I was like, God, that was a hurt. He chucked that ball at him like I wouldn't. That, that was, that was a, a fastball. Okay, you had Toronto in this game. What was your one big issue question for the Raptors, who have lost five of their last six, including two to Charlotte and yesterday to Boston, who is emerging as maybe the feel good story of the entire season. The way they're playing, the way Jaylen Brown is playing, and Joe Missoula emerging as a coach of the year candidate slash favorite. But Toronto hosts this game in the NBA Cup, Knicks are going up north. What was your big question, whatever for the Raptors?

[B]

Listen, they were a great story to start the year. They certainly surpassed like my expectations in terms of where I had them, my barometer on them going into the season. A lot of people in Toronto let me know that when they got off to that hot start. And that's fine. You know, it's an 82 game season so you kind of got to see how it plays out. Now they're done.

[A]

It's generally unwise to take your victory laps or give your concession speeches. In Bill Simmons case where he was like, I guess Per was right, this is a top six team. I was wrong. I'm taking the L. It's 82 games, man.

[B]

Don't, don't consider, man, you gotta wait and you gotta get. And here's especially why. And it, it relates directly to the question I have about them, particularly with this group. One thing that they added this year and it was a huge addition because I just never really loved their, their talent offensively. I thought they had some, some inconsistent guys. Scotty Barnes, as much as I love his all around game, he's not a guy that you know is going to really beat you with his scoring. RJ Barrett, sort of up and down, same thing. These are the guys are counting on. Well, they went out and they added, you know, a guy that flat out can just get his in the mid range right in Brandon Ingram and he comes in the season, he's healthy, he's given them a dimension to their offense that has been pretty significant and their defense has been really solid. But here's my question. Is Brandon Ingram going to be upright all year and is he going to be upright, you know, for even an extended period of time now because you look up his career, you realize he's only played more than 60 games four times. He's only played 65 once and that was his rookie year. And it. So you don't wish anything on anybody. But at the same time, you got to be realistic about it. Just his track record says at some point something's going to happen and he's going to miss a significant period of time. And if that happens, you go back to this offense that I think is inefficient with guys that are inefficient. A lot of nights Brandon Ingram gave them that dimension of there's an answer, like in the last six seconds of a shot clock, because he could just put it on the deck at 6, 11, stop, rise up, shoot that little lean back mid range and he gets cooking. You can't really do much with that. It added something to their offense they really needed. So that's my question. Like they're, they're a, they're a pretty good team. I've enjoyed watching them this year. Are you counting on Brandon Ingram for 60 plus, 65 plus, 70 plus games? I. It just his track record says that's not going to happen. So where does that leave Toronto ultimately? And obviously they're not playing very well going into this cup game.

[A]

In all my focus on the Magic and Franz Wagner, I forgot to talk about Miami, who's actually playing the Magic in that game. We will get back to that later. Toronto is currently 14th in offense, eighth in defense overall.

In that stretch where they've lost five of six. They are 23rd on both ends of the floor. So they've fallen apart on both ends. A lot of it is they're not getting to the line right now on offense. The turnover equation has flipped on them. They're a team that's built to play like frenzied force. A lot of turnovers and on offense take care of the ball. They haven't been doing that and their rebounding is falling apart. Basically everything's gone bad. Those two losses to Charlotte, by the way, those are biggies. Like they could be 17 and 8 right now if they win those two games with a little bit more of a cushion. And they got games coming up against the Knicks, the Celtics, the Heat, the Nuggets, the warriors, the Magic. Like some pretty big, some pretty big games, you know, look, this is all gravy. For them, they've played higher than expectations. The shooting guards have been up and down. This sort of shooting guard brigade they have where it's like one guy's on, one guy's off. It's all, you know, they've been good so far. Scotty Barnes has been great. Just a little bit of a tough stretch that was going to come for them. All right. I had the Knicks as my, my team here. My big question for you is they're now back to the starting five from last year. With Josh Hart in, Mitchell Robinson is now coming off the bench. Is that the right move for the New York Knicks?

[B]

Yeah, I like it better. I just. And it's, it's. I think it's what you're seeing, the results of that. I do like that better. I think that gives them a little more versatility defensively than trying to play two bigs against a lot of teams that space you out. It's just harder. Mitchell Robinson, you know, look, he's going to get his opportunities on the offensive glass, but his, his minutes aren't, are never really that high. He could do a decent job jumping out and switching on guards better than Cat. But I think when you talk about having to guard teams that are spacing you out, Josh Hart's going to give you more versatility. He's also going to give you that added dimension of being able to, to get the throw ahead in the open quarter, take it off the defensive backboard is one of the best rebounding guys his size in the league and be able to create an early push and a surge up the floor offensively that they need. So I just think the pieces fit better and you can then pick and choose a little bit more when you want to put Mitchell Robinson on the floor and allow him to take advantage of certain matchups or lineups that teams are playing and make it a little bit easier if you want to play two bigs together. If you're guarding a team maybe that's got two bigs and doesn't have as much three point shooting on the floor, I think it fits better. I think it makes more sense. And Knicks are playing pretty well right now. 17 out of 8.

[A]

Yeah. Hart has played so well and shot the three so well, 38% that he's kind of made it a moot point. Obviously the other guys are going to have to start. And Mikhail Bridges, like, look, he's not attacking the rim like a bulldozer or anything, but he's actually playing as if he knows that getting to the Rim is a good thing. Like the basket is a good, is a good thing, right? Knicks fans got a little cold on this starting five last year. It was good but not great in the regular season plus about three points per 100 possessions, plus 76 total points in almost 1,000 minutes. And then in the playoffs it got drilled minus 31 and 300 plus minutes. And that's where the narrative sort of ended with like I guess this isn't a great fit. And I never bought that because I like all these players. I like them together. They obviously changed their team dramatically right before training camp. Then guys got injured. They only got like 48 games with everybody together. And so far this season they're plus 39 in 47 minutes. Tiny sample size. I, I, I like it better. My questions are are my follow ups would be they still need I think to get a requisite number of Robinson Cat minutes. I think they're very good with that duo on the floor. And it can't become like sometimes it doesn't play at all. Sometimes it just plays two minutes. And then my big hoops question for you is if you are going all in with this and you're taking your best rim defender and making him a, let's say 18 minute a game reserve, can you defend well enough with Brunson and Towns on the floor to win the Eastern Conference? And this goes like I don't know if you saw Max Kellerman, his big debut appearance on Bill's pod said well the Knicks are just never going to win the championship when their best player is 6ft tall in GL and Brunson. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on that. And just sort of the general how do you cobble enough of a defense with these two guys up the middle?

[B]

It's tough. I mean and this was their biggest Achilles last year. This was something that teams are going to attack. They're going to put those guys in ball screen. And I think what the change over and in, in the coaching change they made, I think they were and look they had a very good offense last year but I think that they were really hoping to be able to shorten shore up their offense to such an extent that it could overcome some of that. So that the trade off was a winning trade off every night where you were getting more because they were harder to guard offensively they could be so good that you could now overcome some of the defensive issues you have. Particularly when you put Brunson and Cat directly in ball screen. And you just saw what teams were able to do to them last year by utilizing very simple action and daring them to figure out a way to try to defend that. And so, yeah, it's an issue. It's an issue. And it's just, it is because of who those guys are and the way that, you know, you can approach attacking them and then it's different areas of the floor that you could put those two guys in. I think right now their offense looks like it might be enough, particularly in the east this year. Zach, when you look at like who's coming out of the East, The Knicks. I've said this from the very beginning of the year. If they don't do it this year, when the hell are they going to do it? And I mean, get to the Finals. When you look at the path, it's like looking through a path through the floor and a lot of these trees have been cleared out of your way and now it's right there for the taking. Now look, Detroit has gotten off to this incredible start, but, you know, Detroit is still a very young team. They were a first round loss a year ago. Do you make that leap in one year from, from losing in the first round to the NBA Finals? I think that's what. Where teams like New York look at it and say, no, no, no, it's us this year because we're ready to do it. So I think their offense might be good enough to overcome some of the defensive issues. And I don't think there's enough in their way where you look at and go, wow, yeah, it's going to be tough for them to get to the finals this year. I almost feel like they have to look at this as if we don't get there. It's a failed year. Based on what the Eastern Conference looks like right now, they may who do. Who knows, Depending on the Wagner news, maybe that's another team that's going to be kind of like dealing with something all year depending on what news we get out of that. So it's there for the Knicks. I think their offense is, is, is really difficult to defend. And I think that defensive issue exists, but I also don't think it's enough to look at it and say that's going to hold them back and keep them from getting to the NBA Finals this year.

[A]

Yeah. And I don't even know what the right answer is. Right. Because they're not going to play zone. That's not, that's not a Mike Brown thing.

I, I think cat is actually like cat in a drop coverage to Me is just chum for sharks. Like he just is not. But, but I also don't like. I like it better when he switches or when he blitzes even. But in this lineup when he does that, everything behind him is pretty small. Like Anunobi is big for a wing and can protect the rim. Heart is like for 6, 4. Guy offers some rib protection, bridges, whatever. It gets pretty small behind it. But I like it better when he's more active on defense. And they've just. Sometimes they'll mix those kinds of things in and with Robinson on the floor, on the back line, if you drag Cat and then I'm all, all in for an aggressive coverage. But. And so they've. When he does drop their bet is obviously with these three big wings sort of on the side coming in for help and then flying out at shooters. They can protect the paint contest threes, even though they're giving up a ton of threes. We'll see. I picked the Knicks to make the Finals before the season. I'm picking them to make the Finals now. What did you think of the Kellerman? Like just. No, never, can never win with the six foot best player.

[B]

Well, I mean, look to his point, historically that's just tough to do for any team, not just the Knicks. It's really difficult if your best player and your leading scorer is as big as Jalen Brunson. It's just, just look at it. It's really difficult to pull off and some of the smaller guards that have been able to do that get to the finals or win a title that they had great balance across the board offensively on those teams in terms of winning it all. So. And it's only been, you know, a few guys ever. So I mean, to me that statement just kind of encompasses all of basketball at the NBA level. It's very difficult to pull that off. Here's, here's the bottom line, Zach, with, with the league. I don't care who comes out of the East. It's going to be a very difficult thing to beat whoever comes out of the west. And I think we know who that's going to be. I mean, I don't know how much more Oklahoma City would have to do to convince anybody that like they're going back to the Finals. They're most likely going to be repeat champions. And so look, no matter what happens, whoever gets there, that's going to be a tough thing to overcome. Just getting to the Finals obviously would be something that everybody in New York would wrap their arms around because they haven't been able to do that either in a very, very long time. Unfortunately, though, whoever it is that represents the Eastern Conference, that's what's, what's. That's what is waiting for you at the end of the road. It's going to be a very, very difficult uphill battle regardless. So, you know, to say that like, the Knicks can't win because of Brunson. He's too small. And teams with small guards, you know, shooting that much, aren't going to win a championship. I mean, really, if Brunson was 6, 8, I don't know that they're winning a championship against that team anyway if they face the Thunder in the finals.

[A]

Look, Max is a great debater. He referred to himself as Muhammad Kellerman last week and he is a great debater. He's incredibly smart and very quick on his feet and he's a great debater. And he knows that this is a great rhetorical advice because it's so wildly unlikely that any team wins an NBA championship, that it's. Of course, it's like the Knicks are very unlikely to win an NBA championship. So as a result, he's going to be proven right because you reverse engineering the reasoning. I just don't buy any absolutist reasoning like that. Number one, what are they supposed to do? Go out and buy a 6, 8 superstar wing at the wing superstar grocery store? There's no such thing. This is their team. They have to do it. And I remember arguing with Max about Steph Curry. Now, this was after the warriors had won at least two titles at that point. And he was saying that, you know, Steph he thought was a little overrated because basketball self selects a phrase that he repeated in the Simmons podcast for height because it's a ten foot basket. And I just said, look, I get that. But what this guy does with his gravity is so unique and special and the openings it creates for everybody else that he's compensating. He's almost like a bigger player in the, in the level of help that he's able to draw. And Jalen Brunson is not Steph Curry, but he's a very special one on one isolation player that I just don't like. Yeah, of course. Would he be better off? It was six. Six, Sure. I don't think any of these absolutes apply. It just depends so much on what the context of your team is. And they've bet that with these wings and with Kat as like a co star that they can do it. To your point, they're going to face somebody out of the west who's better than they are. Whoever wins these. Let's go back to the second east playing game because I forgot to talk about Miami, which was my team. My big question for you, Tim Legler about the Miami Heat, who are playing Orlando in the quarterfinals Battle of Florida is can the bam out of Bioco where duo really work? And by that I mean sometimes they start, sometimes they don't. Regardless, can it be a 15 to 20, 25 minute a game look this season, next season and beyond for the Miami Heat?

[B]

Well, I think it can. I think it's already, they're already proving that. And one of the reasons I say it can is because of how much faith I have in their head coach. And this team has really, really surprised me. I called them boring going into the season. They just were like, okay, they're the Heat. I have so much respect for Spolter. You know, they're going to play hard, they' to compete. I just didn't, I just don't love watching them. I didn't love their roster. They added Norman Powell and I talked to Eric sp in Chicago in September for, for like the coaches meetings and I sat down with all these coaches and just talks about their team and just got into some film work with these guys. What he said flat out was we just finished the season. We said absolutely, no matter what, we've got to add offense. We don't have enough offense to win in the NBA. They went out and they added Norman Powell, who's given them even more than he was given you a year ago with the Clippers, which I thought was like basically his ceiling. 24 points a game and he has given them that pop and they've done a lot of what they've done to start the year without Tyler Herro. And I've been unbelievably impressed with the way they have completely transformed what they look like offensively, how fast they play, how early they shoot, how easy it is for them to put together huge quarters. For Miami to get to a 30 point quarter a year ago, you just felt like, wow, what a quarter they just had now, like they could put together four of those in the same game. That was never the case in recent memory with this team. And so I've been unbelievably impressed with what they have done to change my opinion about like what they look like, their style, how entertaining they are, the numbers they're putting up is hard to guard. Eric Sprouls is the right guy. To push the right buttons with lineups, rotations, with changing defenses with the right calls at the right time. In late game situations when he utilized timeouts like he does the right challenges at the right time. Eric Sprouls is the right guy to navigate this roster. So if there is a situation where they've got Khalil Ware and Bam Adebayo, some nights it might not look like it's going to work. A little bit clunky. I trust Eric Spolzer to be able to push the right button at the right time of when those two guys are going to be on the court, be productive based on the opponent, based on the individual matchup and the rotation in that game.

[A]

So far the results are checkered. They are minus 30 in 123 minutes this season with Bam and Khalil on the floor. 105 offensive rating 118 defense rating. A lot of that can be explained. Some of that. Some of that can be explained by three point shooting both ends. Miami not making theirs. Opponents making theirs. Last year though they were plus 44 in 500 plus minutes. 113 offensive rating still not great. 108 and a half defensive rating. And for this to work they have to be fearsome defensively. Like all that size, all that rebounding. Ware has made a big leap defensively. He still has a ways to go.

The answer to this one is tbd. For me, the numbers would make you pessimistic. The eye test and Bam's versatility on defense and just the sort of primacy of skilled size in the NBA right now would make me want to do everything possible to make this work. And I do think both of them can shoot it well enough. Bam can drive it well enough. Although at the 4 he doesn't have the speed advantage in this drive and kick offense the way he does at the 5. I think that's a little bit of an issue. But like people have asked, well, how does Kahlil Ware fit into this just attack, attack, attack offense. He's not an off the dribble guy. Number one is three is pretty good. Number two, what a target for dump off passes. When you get into the lane, like just throw the lob, bounce it to him in the paint, whatever. So I'm, I remain kind of cautiously optimistic. It does. Like as you talk about their offense, it is interesting. Remember the night this is your era. Remember the Mike Fratello 1990s Cavs who tricked people, who tricked people into thinking they had the best defense in the NBA, but really they were just paying it, playing it like a snail's pace. Oh yeah, the Heat are like the opposite of that where they have tricked people into thinking they have an elite offense because they score so many points, which is really the result of their pace. They're 13th in offense, which is very good coming from where they were. But I think people are talking about them like they're a top five or six offense and they're just not. They're good. But that's, that is fantastic given where they were last year, how much time Heroes missed and he's hurt again. I don't know for how long, how much time Powell has even missed. Like they, they could be a 10, 11 kind of offense with their defense. That's a plus. The Zach Low show is brought to you by FanDuel this NBA season on FanDuel, it's all about the boost. Because game day means your chance to boost your bet and make every play pay off. That's right, all customers get a 25% SGP and parlay profit boost. The games never stop. And with FanDuel you've got more ways to make every win even bigger. So lock in your bets, boost your odds and make every night count with FanDuel. Official sports betting partner of the NBA must be 21 or over in President select states or 18 and over in President DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Opt in Required bonus issued is non withdrawable profit boost tokens restrictions apply including any token expiration and max wager amount. See [e-mail] gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org ChatInElectric.

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Are you ready to move west?

[B]

Yep. Do it.

[A]

Let's start with Spurs, Lakers. You had San Antonio as your team, so kick it off.

[B]

Well, I think for me it's, you know, obviously Wemby's out right now he's, he's. It's imminent, his return. It looks like it's going to be potentially even. I guess their next game had a full practice, so it looks like he's about ready to ramp it up again. And so I guess I'm so. I'm really impressed with this collection of young guards that they have. Like Fox is, you know, does what he's been doing in this league for a while. I love Stefan Castle. I love his toughness, I love his defense. He's taken his offense up a notch. Dylan Harper is going to be a star in this league. He gets to the rim so easy. He's got like real man strength right now when he drives the ball to the rim. So they've got this just, you know, wealth at the guard spot. They've got these wings that can score even on nights they get limited touches. They find a way to get it done. And then of course, you've got Wemby. My question is, do you think he's. How ready is he to really be a guy that in a seven game series and beyond multiple seven game series, is he ready now physically to be able to play the game he wants to play and play to his strengths enough to be able to get through some, you know, around or two in the Western Conference? You know, we look at him some nights, obviously in the start he had to the season we were all kind of like just absolutely blown away at what we were watching. It just didn't look like anything we'd ever seen. But then he's got some nights still and I called one of these games where you can get into him a little bit and if they're not putting him in positions where he catches it in advantageous positions on the court, you can muscle him a little bit and get up under him when he drives and he, he'll take some off balance runners that are definitely kind of bailing you out defensively. So there's still enough of that in there, Zach, that I go, you know what it look, he's so young, but he's so incredible, so nice that we think, okay, he's ready and it's ready now. And that's my question. How close is he? When will it happen where Wemby is playing so dominantly every night to his strengths and not doing the things that you want him to do defensively because some of those things get, you know, it's a wrestling match, sometimes he's going to lose some of those and he ends up bailing you out by taking this shot because he's 75 and can shoot it over the top of anybody, rather than the nights when he plays a little bit stronger through contact and he's a little bit more like what he wants to get and he looks unstoppable. I don't know. I don't know the answer that I don't think it's this year. Will it be next year? Will it be the year after? Maybe some of that's going to be tied to the emergence of some of these young guards I talked about too.

[A]

What a spot the spurs are in right now, to your point, because they are one of the teams that has the goods to trade for Giannis and the sort of present day roster that you would look and say, all right, if we have Fox and Wembanyama and Giannis and whatever else is left over, we could actually make a run at it now, which is, if you're going to trade for Giannis, you have to make a run at it now. You have to be able to make a run at it immediately. On the other hand, they're already really good. 15 and 7. And to your point about Wemby and sort of what does this all look like? I think they're now 8 and 3 since Wembanyama got injured. And it's exactly unfolding in the way you would think if, if, if you had mapped out an optimistic result for the spurs without Wembanyama, it would be, well, Fox is healthy, offense goes up a little bit, defense suffers a lot, but the offense overcomes it. That's exactly what's happened with Wembanyama on the floor. 114. Offensive rating. 105. Defensive rating plus 9. Monster number, exactly the way you'd expect. Wemby off the floor. Offense jumps to 118, defense jumps to 117. And then you think he's still only played eight games with De' Aaron Fox? I think maybe nine. I don't know. It's like eight or nine games. Nine games. Is there a world in which they combine all of this together? The offensive verve they've found without Wembanyama and Fox getting healthy and integrating himself into the Crunchtown offense? Harper, now Castle's also been hurt. You know, Harper's now back with, with Wembanyama's defensive presence. This could be a pretty goddamn good team right now. I just don't, I just don't think this. The, the, the juggernauts in front of them. Oklahoma City, Denver, Houston. I just don't see any world in which the spurs present day single season ceiling is high enough to beat any of those teams in a playoff series. I mean, you could talk me into maybe Houston again, assuming everyone's fully healthy. But, you know, beyond that, I don't see it. But there is something interesting percolating here. And it's interesting enough that the honest question, I really don't know what. You want to just do the Giannis thing now, I asked you. I asked you to just give me. To set aside the contractual realities, which are.

He'S eligible for a contractor extension after the season. I don't think he can actually sign it until October, which is. Which is an interesting. I checked with some union people on this. It's an interesting sort of nugget in this. And any team that's going to give up the goods for him is going to want to know ahead of time is he going to sign the extension or not, which allows him to put his thumb on the scale a little bit. And if he really wants the Knicks or he really wants whatever, to try to direct himself his way there. I wanted you to set aside all of that and just say, what is Tim Legler's dream basketball fit if not Milwaukee, Right. And he repeated his thing to Chris Haynes on Amazon, my Amazon prime teammate, that he wants to run through a wall. He sees the wall, he wants to run through it. Maybe this is just another false start to all this, but if it isn't a false start, what's your dream fit?

[B]

I'm going to give. I'm going to give one from each conference because I had one team and I was like, for me, the Knicks are the team that, you know, and that's the team that he has said, you know, it's been reported that that's the place he would go if it wasn't Milwaukee. You look at a franchise like that, in that kind of market, with the electricity around that team right now that's been created since Jalen Brunson has turned into what he's turned into. Right. It's back like that environment, that energy and. And this organization that hasn't won in 50 years. And Giannis, the ultimate challenge to go there, to see him paired up with Brunson and like, what that would look like that would be was the team that immediately jumped to my mind. But then I started thinking about Houston and I started thinking about that's another team that potentially could have what it takes to get Giannis. And when you went out and acquired Kevin Durant feud, Houston Rockets, like you didn't do that with some timeline on the horizon that's like no, man. Like every single year, this year, next year, however long Kevin Durant stays healthy and plays, you got to try to win it. And you've got Oklahoma City in front of you, and that looks like maybe that's something that's not going to happen. As good as Houston is and Denver, like Oklahoma City, looks like it's almost a foregone conclusion. So you got to figure out something else that would be the ultimate for the Houston Rockets to pair him with Kevin Durant and to look at that situation and what Giannis could bring, and would that be enough physically to go up and be able to take on a team as good defensively as Oklahoma City. So those would be the two places I think that would be the most interesting. There are some other fun ones that you would like seeing it with, but I'm talking about in terms of relevance and actually having a chance to. To move that needle to the point of competing for a title. I think those are the two places that make the most sense to me.

[A]

Yeah, I mentioned all the teams last Thursday so people can go back and listen to that. The one team I forgot to mention is the warriors, and I didn't mention them because I just don't think they have enough. But they do have a. They have three first round picks and a piece of another one to trade and some big salaries, including Kaminga, who just got benched and is eligible to be traded January 15th. I mentioned Atlanta, I mentioned Toronto, I mentioned all the teams. Houston. What if I told you that the only way you get him is one. One of Sengun or Amen Thompson has to be in the deal. Are you out?

[B]

Can you be more specific? Pick one.

[A]

Okay. Which one would you. Which one would you prefer to give up if you have to? If that's the only way you're doing it and you're hell bent on doing it, you can pick one. I'm the Bucks. I'm John Horse. They say, I just need one of them. You pick.

[B]

I would probably be more willing to part with Sengun.

[A]

I said the same thing. And I wouldn't feel great. I wouldn't feel great about.

[B]

No, of course not. Of course not. Yeah. And you know, people get, you know, they lose their mind. Oh, you talking about trading Sengun? No, I mean, think about what we're saying here. Giannis, and he has proven it this year with what he's doing. There's been no precipitous decline at all in Giannis's. Dominance and what he's doing on the court and to affect the game in so many ways. Sengun is a player I've come to love. But if you look at stylistically, if you add a Giannis to the mix, like, that's going to fit better. If Sengun isn't there because of the amount that, that Sengun has, the basketball, that's going to be a much more difficult thing. Amen Thompson.

[A]

He's.

[B]

He's a guy that. I just love his defense so much and there's still so much more, I think, upside as a football dominant, downhill.

[A]

Playmaker, I would be terrified to trade Amen Thompson. Absolutely terrified.

[B]

Say exactly that would. Right. And you think, you think now, because there's still some rawness to his game, some people might be like, oh, well, no, you don't really know what his upside is going to be. And that's exactly why I'd be terrified. I think I know what Sengon's ultimate ceiling is like. We're watching it right now. And look, I know he's a really young player, but I don't know if there's that much more than you're seeing right now out of Shen, which, by the way, pretty damn good. It's all star caliber. It's. It's like NBA, like one of the three, you know, all NBA teams caliber player. But I think I know exactly what that's going to look like probably for the next 10 years. I don't know exactly what the ceiling is going to be on Amen Thompson. And so that would be very scary to see that come to fruition in another place for the next decade. If he ends up taking it to another stratosphere, which I think he's got the potential to do. So it would be Shen Goon, and it'd be twisting my arm to pick one of the two, but it would be Sengun. And then obviously there'd be some other stuff that would have to come back to Milwaukee as well.

[A]

If they ever got to a point where they could do it without including either of those two players, that becomes a very interesting conversation. Even if Reed shepherd has to be involved. Oh, yeah. The things that can't be underestimated about the Giannis thing are there are three. Number one is the extension leverage that I talked about that he has. Number two is his injuries are a concern. Like, teams are looking at this. It's like a lot of playoff games missed the last few seasons. Another calf thing. Right now he's 31 almost. I think he turns 31 this week. This isn't nothing. This is a real concern for teams. And the third one is maybe this is overthinking it, but a team like Houston, who's 15 and 6, they have a pretty set style of play that they've leaned all the way into.

[B]

It's.

[A]

It's upheaval in the middle of a season that's going well for you, even with a guy this talented. At worst, the fourth best player in the NBA. At worst, it is a whole, like, midstream. All right, we've got like 30 games or whatever. It ends up being 40 games to figure this out, and we're already really good. Like, there is a level of disruption that comes with this. And that's why I want to bring it back to San Antonio, because I talked about them for Giannis and Giannis and Wemby being like this incredible pairing of just freaks and lengths and aliens and all this. And I framed it around like you're going to have to include one of Castle or Harper to get this done. If I'm the Bucks, like, there's just no other way to do it. And the spurs have like pick swaps and other stuff from a bunch of other teams. So I get like a Sacramento pick swap, maybe a Dallas pick swap. Just bites at the apple where I can bet like one of these teams will be bad in the right year for me if I'm Milwaukee and I don't control my own picks unless I get the back from Atlanta or whatever.

And it's an interesting conversation for the spurs because you mentioned Durant in Oklahoma City, Durant and Houston. I talked last week about this decision that these Western Conference teams have to make of.

Is it better for us to go after OKC now, or is it better for us to wait two or three years and see if the luxury tax breaks them up, if somebody gets hurt, if somebody declines. And there is no right answer to that question. But I was talking about to a front office guy about it over the weekend and he said, I think the answer is actually different for Houston than it is for San Antonio because of Durant. Houston baked in some immediacy into their timetable that San Antonio does not have. And the more I think about it, for San Antonio, it would have to be like a three for one or four for two trades. So not only am I giving up one of the young guards, both of whom have star potential, as you said, Castle and Harper, not only am I giving up a bunch of draft assets, but I'm also going to have to give up, like, depth pieces, Harrison Barnes, Keldon Johnson, whatever you want to do to make the salary work. And I'm going to chip away at, like, guys 7 to 10 in my rotation, which is a big deal. I think it's a harder decision for the spurs than even I had thought of last week. It's. It's just. There's just a lot of variables, man. These are not easy decisions.

[B]

Listen, I'm sitting here looking at San Antonio with this collection of young players and the upside of these guys with this trans. This generational guy in Wemby at the top, and I'm saying there is some risk involved there. Yes, it would look like a sci fi movie to watch the two of them out there together defensively. I don't know what that length would look like to an opposing offensive player with those two guys on the court, the other lob to each other potential that would represent. It's almost comical to think about. So that. That's kind of fun to play with. But at the same time, what they have right now is so healthy. Their culture, the talent that they've acquired, the direction they're headed in. You know, a guy like Wemby that you're thinking like, hey, man, it stays healthy, look at the next 12 to 15 years with this guy as our best player. Because they've got. They've had that before. With their top guys sticking around that long and that amount of winning that took place, they're headed in that direction. Do you want to just. And because you add Giannis, then everything speeds up. Now you've got to get it done quicker for the spurs, because you said Giannis, he's had injuries, he's 31. Like, we've got to now do this a lot faster. Time frame, is that a little bit unsettling? Does that rattle the cage a little bit with the spurs fan base? I think you voted on that. Would they all. Would everybody be like, all in? Oh, we get Giannis Wemby. You got to think these things through. And the pieces you're going to lose that are major rotational fits.

The positivity around everything and where this is headed and the picks they've made and they've hit a home run on all of these. Like, you got to think about that. Do we want to disrupt that? Because we're headed there and maybe we get there at a time when Oklahoma City is dealing with some issues or they've lost some guys and maybe that's the right time to arrive. Because if you add Giannis that speeds all of that up where you're trying to contend year after year with him as well, against an Oklahoma City team that doesn't look like they're about to go anywhere over the next several years.

[A]

Yeah, it's, it's really fascinating because on the one hand, if I'm the Spurs, this, what this stretch without Wemby makes me really want to see what this team as presently constructed can do when healthy. Like how good is the Fox Wemby, everything we've seen, how good is it all together? And on the flip side, like, I'm pretty certain that no matter how good it is, it's not good enough to beat the Thunder and the Nuggets and maybe the Rockets in a playoff series. And I kind of don't know what to do with that. And to your point about another argument for waiting that I think gets overlooked sometimes is there will be another guy, another unhappy superstar in two years, three years, a year, 18 months. Maybe not as good as Giannis, but maybe it doesn't have to be as good as Giannis if Wembanyama is so good. There just, there will be other stuff that comes up. All right, they're playing in the quarterfinals, the Los Angeles Lakers, which was my team. And my big question for Tim Legler about The Lakers is 17 and six LeBron streak over again. The most fitting double digit streak ending play that could possibly have. I mean you and I remember when he passed to Danielle Marshall in the 2007 conference finals against the Pistons when he kicked out and people hated it on him for that. I remember in March 20, 2012 I was at the Sloan conference when he passed at down one heat Jazz pass to you Donnis Haslam for a long two that Haslam miss and he got pilloried for that even though they were both the right basketball play. Let me. You could argue about the 2007 one, but man, if you read some of the coverage of LeBron from like 2007 through 2012, it's so scathing. And the passing late in games criticism is like so it almost reads as like borderline insane sometimes because he was making the right play every time and of course now he's celebrated for it. Anyway, clutch baskets yesterday against Philly, 17 and 6, second in the West, 20th in defense. And that's my question for you. Reeves, Luca, LeBron, no matter how you configure it, no matter how you work the rotation, stagger the minutes, play Marcus Smart, maybe Jared Vanderbilt gets back into the rotation somehow, whatever you do is this team good enough defensively to do actual real like get to the conference finals and maybe beyond damage in the Western Conference.

[B]

Well, their defense is not going to be the reason that it's not going to be good enough at any point. I think because of the personnel. It's just not going to be now JJ Redick and get clever with, with coverages and, you know, mixing in some zone and different things to protect guys out on the floor. And look, that's always going to be a case with Luka. It's not as bad as it was last year when it was almost laughable what they had to do to try to protect him at all times. He's playing a little bit harder on that end, but he's just not going to be a guy that affects the game a whole lot down there. I think what JJ Redick's counting on is it will not be something that is so poor we can't overcome it because we have these three different guys that can manipulate defenses unlike any other team in the league. No team in the league has three guys that can control and manipulate a defense through isolation or ball screen the way that their three guys can. To think that they've got three guys averaging 6.8 assists and up, it's pretty incredible. And Reeves showed you what he was capable of doing when different guys were out and it was kind of his show. He's like the perfect guy to pair with both of them. But on nights when he has to be more him because one of those guys is out, he's showing you what he could take it to. And I think that's what J.J. is counting on. He thinks that they're built more for less possessions in a playoff game. Good luck guarding us and guarding these three guys who can, even against physical defenses, have the, the handle and the strength and the size and the IQ and the shot making ability to be able to trump whatever you throw at us defensively. It's always going to be something that we're trying to mask. It'll mean less in the playoffs than it does a lot of nights in the regular season. And I think that's what they're counting on. And some nights you look at them offensively and you kind of go, man, okay, again, listen, this is all comparing everything to Oklahoma City. So it's almost like you're not saying can they win the West? What you're, what we're really saying is can they be the last team standing against the Thunder? That's really what this conversation is in the Western Conference, it's not really about to me getting to the finals because I just don't see that happening if Oklahoma City keeps their top guys healthy and it may be even then they're so deep but we're really talking about it. Can they be the last team standing if you stay out of OKC's bracket, can you be that team that takes them on to the conference finals that actually give them a competitive series in the conference finals? And I think the answer to that for me is yes. And I think for JJ Redick, I think he really likes his team because he knows how hard they are to deal with because of those three guys.

[A]

See I think.

I still think the fully healthy Nuggets could give Oklahoma City a run in the playoffs. The Rockets are tbd, but I like the way that they're sort of leaning in on like we can't beat them running, we can't beat them with sexy offense. We're just going to beat the shit out of them. That's the only chance we have. And the Lakers as you said, are going with we have this three headed monster offensively that even if our defense is average, you're just even you Oklahoma City, even you with 9,000 wing defenders to throw at these guys and swipe at the ball are not going to have an answer for a guy who already beat you in the playoffs two years ago with a different team, the Dallas Mavericks. Sorry mad fans in Luca. It's an interesting, it's an I. But the Nuggets are the one team that I think I'm not just waltzing Oklahoma City into the finals even though I did pick them to win the championship and still would. And the Lakers, to your point about playoff basketball, eight no in clutch games this season and that eight no record in close games down the stretch is sort of inflating their overall record. They have the point differential of like a 12 and whatever 12 and 9 team instead of a 17 and 16. And yes, I realized I did the math there wrong.

And they're getting propped up their record by these clutch games. But I don't like maybe that should be 6 and 2 instead of 8 and oh, this team is built to win close games with the guys they have orchestrating their offense and the decision making they have late in games. I think they're more dangerous as a potential conference finals team than that 20th ranking in defense might suggest because I do think there are still some levers left to pull, some guys left to get healthy and the offense which is sixth is completely legit. To me, I think LeBron, although he wasn't shooting well until last night against Philadelphia, has integrated himself as well and as smoothly as could possibly have been expected. And they're going to be super hard to guard. And if Houston has, I mean, Houston style, we'll see how it translates. Denver is not healthy right now. We'll see what their health status is in the playoffs. We'll obviously see where LeBron's health is at age 41 in the playoffs. I don't think it's unfathomable at all that the Lakers could get to the conference finals. I think they're going to be a dangerous team and people are sort of. There's a cadre of critics who are like, well, their defense stinks, they have no chance, blah, blah. Well, they might not have a chance to get the Thunder. I'm not counting them out against anybody else now. I'd pick Denver over them in a playoff series. I'd probably pick Houston over them in a playoff series, but I'd think hard about it. And obviously I'd pick Oklahoma City. But I think they're a legit, really good team. Like, I don't, I don't think this record is super misleading. I think this is a good team.

[B]

Totally agree with that. And I think, look, you're right. And I don't think it's going to be a cakewalk for Oklahoma City. I just sit there and think about all the things that would have to go right for you to beat them four times in a seven game series. And look, Denver took him to seven games a year ago. Indiana took him to seven games in the NBA finals. And so, you know, it was, it was a tough path, but I do, this team is better. This Oklahoma City team is better. And you know, not just saying that because they're what, 22 and 1, they just are like, not only have they had like an emergence of a guy like A.J. mitchell, who's who, this guy is a big time player. And look, this is on Dagnal on those nights when everybody is available. Now this, this year it's been like just enough guys out every night that everybody's getting appropriate run eventually at some point, like there's going to be some guys frozen out a little bit of this rotation. That's going to be a difficult decision for him. But they're better because they now have, to me, they have this swagger about them and this confidence about them that they're carrying themselves differently. Last year they knew they were a great team. It was still Uncharted territory. You know, were they going to be able to do it after getting bounced a year before? Can you. Can you get all the way through and navigate it? And they were able to navigate the big moments in the big games. I think they're better than they were so they'll be challenged in the postseason. It's just really hard for me to think Denver, Houston, which are the two top teams, or the Lakers could beat them four times because of what they are able to do to you with their versatility defensively and the number of guys that cause problems on that end of the floor. And then just the ultimate answer in shade which no one really has any idea how to slow him down and to get him off his spot. So it look, they're there. To me, it's not just a leader in a clubhouse. They're like the prohibitive favorite. Again, it's pretty obvious with the start of the year they've had. There are three teams that are can challenge them, but beating them is a different thing.

[A]

Well, they were your Oklahoma City. Phoenix is the last cup quarterfinal game. Oklahoma City was your team. Big issue, big question. Did you just say it or do you have something.

[B]

No, I think that's it. I think here's my only question for you because I think this is really all we're talking about with this team. You know, first of all, you know, do you think they're going to win 75, 76 games? I mean, they're on pace for 78 right now, so they have to really cool off to win 75 or 76. They'd have to have a bad week at some point.

You know, and here's my question about them. If they do it and all the metrics are there that we talk about and they win 75 games, they break the single season record, then they go on and they win three rounds and they're not pushed beyond like say six games in any series and then they get to the NBA Finals and they win that in five or six games as well. Like, if all that were to happen, do you think they will be a team that then will ascend to greatest of all time or one of the greatest of all time? Or do you think that there's such nostalgia associated with some of those teams that it's very difficult to crack? That no matter what their season ends up being like, how do you view them? And based on the current landscape of the NBA and what the league looks like, if they're able to pull this off, what is. What will that say? About this team historically, that's really to me what they're chasing now. They're chasing being not just a champion, they're chasing being an all time great team. That's what they want to do. And it seems like they're pretty damn intent on doing that this year by breaking the record and really doing it without pushing themselves well.

[A]

And you know, Shay's comments, I can't remember who he made them to a few weeks ago about, you know, we weren't satisfied with how we played in the playoffs last year with how we, you know, just had to sneak out a couple of series like that. That was like a terrifying warning shot to the entire league. As if they needed to fire another warning shot when they're 23 and one with a net rating. That is ridiculous. It's part of the reason I took the over on them even though the line was set preposterously high. I think they want this. I think they like this. I think they want the pressure. I think they're hungry to make history. I do think they're going to win 70 games, maybe 73. I don't know. I will say I'm almost not ready for your discussion yet about their place in history because we've seen. It's just, it's too hard. It's so hard that even the evidence being the 73 win team did not win the championship like it's, it's just so hard. And there's going to be moments in the playoffs that will test them. But yes, Tim, if all those things happen, they will be in the conversation for greatest single season team of all time. They will have repeated as champions which opens the door to all kinds of historic discussions. And they are sitting on not only the Los Angeles Clippers unprotected first round pick, but this Philadelphia 76ers top four protected first round pick and the Utah Jazz top eight protected first round pick. In related news, the Jazz tank didn't tank. They just got blown out by the Thunder last night without Larry Markin in and the Clippers after, after one nice win post Chris Paul parting of ways went right back to losing. It's a little bit scary, but it's always harder than people think. I do think they're, I do think they're cracking 70 and if you, you know, their, their next three games, including this Phoenix game are all pretty winnable. And then it gets a little harder. 73, it's just, you know, you know they'll have, I mean they won't have a lull, but I, I, I mean like you said, they're on pace for 78 wins.

[B]

Can I, can I, can I give you one more thought on them? Because I thought something you just said Trader, I agree with you. I think they do want it and I don't necessarily think Mark Dagnal wants that. He. I've been around Mark Dagnal more than we've spent. It's almost like a second home. But, you know, calling games at Oklahoma City. We've been there so much and I've had so many conversations with him. He's so present in a given moment, hour by hour. The way that his mentality about everything, it's not something that I think he has ever even really consciously thought. Yes, man, that'd be great, be cool for these guys to do. He doesn't, but I think the players do and I don't even think they're talking about it but the way that they're carrying themselves, the amount of enthusiasm, enthusiasm they have for what they're doing to teams, it seems like, you know, it's there, it's floating around and it's something that they are grabbing as a group. Even if it's not ever going to be discussed or ever going to be emphasized internally. It's just organically possible because of the way that they carry themselves, the amount of depth they have on given nights to give guys rest and stay fresh. I do think that they're kind of going for it even if they're not going to talk about it and they've got a great chance to do it. Think about this, Zach. The only, you know, do you know the only game they lost this year was the Port. They were up 20. They lost a 20 point lead in that game. Or they're 24 0. Or they're 240 right now. And now then we wouldn't just be talking about 73 wins. Then we will be talking about 33 in a row. That other record out there that seems absolutely impossible.

Especially in current NBA with the amount of injuries and load management and all this stuff that goes on. If they had gotten that game in Portland and held that lead, they'd be 24 and oh, right now did they. Then that would be the next. We'd be talking about that too. Doing both of those.

[A]

I almost wonder if, I wonder if this is, if not been verbalized, if it is popped into the brains of anybody. With the Oklahoma City Thunder of now we have this new thing, the NBA cup. Being the first team to win the cup and the championship and now Maybe set the win record in the same year. The cup is like this little extra thing. I'll bet you someone in there is thought like who won the cup last year? The Bucs. They didn't do so well. Who won the first one? The Lakers. They didn't do that great. Well, wouldn't it be cool if we won and we won the whole thing. Phoenix is their opponent. And my big question for you, for Phoenix, The Suns are 12th in offense, 13th in defense. Just a solid all around team and I just big picture. Does this seem real to you? Like how surprised are you and how sustainable is this? Is this really an above.500 team in the West?

[B]

They've become one of my guilty pleasures, watching the Phoenix Suns. And here's. Here's the first thing you notice about the Phoenix Suns. Now just visually if you sit down to watch the game, it's obvious that they're playing harder than they did the last few years. And just by doing that.

You kind of have a little bit more admiration for them because they were just this underachievement. You know, they're trying to put that talent together and try to win. It just never looked right. This is different. Again, you've got this one clear alpha in Booker. You've had an incredible year though out of Dylan Brooks. You know, I didn't think Dylan Brooks could dial his game up to this level offensively. One of the best stories in the league in Colin Gillespie which really strikes home with me because of coaching against him when he was started, when he was like 12 years old in AAU and watching this kid and what he has gone on to become and now entrenched himself in Phoenix and such an important cog for them, you know, this rookie coach after they brought in two guys that won titles, you know, and they both, they gave both of those guys one year each in Vogela Boudenholzer didn't work. So let's go with Jordan Notch. Never been a head coach in the league. Let's redefine what we're going to look like with this one. Alpha offensively and pieces that fit. And I got. But here's the biggest thing, play harder. Let's just see what can happen if we actually compete with, with that level of physicality. And that's what they're doing. And that's why I do think, look, I don't know if they're going to maintain this winning percentage but I do think this is a team that's got a great shot to, you know, when it's all said and done potentially be above the play in or in the play in and a chance to advance into a seven game series. And I didn't know that anybody really thought that going into the season. I've been really impressed with what this product looks like compared to what I watched for the last three years.

[A]

Maybe the stat of the entire season for the deep cut nerds. The Phoenix Suns are plus 50 in 248 minutes with the dynamic duo of Colin Gillespie and Jordan Goodwin on the floor together. Just swiping the ball from people going the other way and Colin Gillespie just making big three after big three late in games and being called Connor Gillespie on some broadcasts by people who don't know who the hell he is. I guess my big question for them would be on offense. 12th strikes me as quite high considering Booker has had just a so so shooting season. Jalen Green hasn't played at all. Maybe that would help, maybe it wouldn't and just they don't exactly overflow with ball handling talent. Aside from Booker, Brooks has been outstanding. He's ever do 22 a game shooting the hell out of it on twos they are they are 29th in shots at the rim so they're not getting to the getting to the basket much and they're shooting well from all over the floor. Top 10 from every range on the floor in shooting percentage that I think probably will come down a little bit but I this is a play in team for sure. They're 7 to 10 in the west lock. Like I don't see any chance that they fall out of that and maybe they stick in the seven and eight. I mean Memphis has started to play a lot better. They've had an easy schedule but they've also played piled up some good wins. Now like that's been it's kind of been interesting to watch the Grizzlies without John Morant. Like Vince Williams has been pretty good as a pseudo point guard. Jalen Wells has found his game. Edie completely changes their team with a with a post up like pick and roll. He rolls hard, he rolls into post ops. He gets good position. They've got a good spirit about them now but they're still a few games behind Phoenix. The top six is a bridge too far for me this top six in the west of okc, Lakers, Nuggets, Rockets, Spurs, Wolves. Always the forgotten team the Wolves. It's just I don't see Phoenix cracking that. But if you we get to the end of the season and they're hosting a play in game. Whether it's the first game or the second game, that wouldn't surprise me at all. This team is legit. Tough, good, hard nosed, super fun to watch. This episode is brought to you by ServiceNow AI is only as powerful as the platform it's built into. That's why it's no surprise that more than 85% of the Fortune 500 use the ServiceNow AI platform. While other platforms duct tape tools together, ServiceNow seamlessly unifies people, data workflows and AI connecting every corner of your business. And with AI agents working together autonomously, anyone in any department can focus on the work that matters Most. Learn how ServiceNow puts AI to work for [e-mail] this episode is brought to.

[B]

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[A]

Can I ask you about one other team before we get to All Star picks?

[B]

Sure.

[A]

This is becoming one of the more pressing issues in the league to me, particularly after they lost to the remains of the warriors and 1/2 of the lacks bros the Spencer Bros over the weekend. What's wrong with the Cleveland Cavaliers? Or is anything wrong with the Cleveland Cavaliers other than they just can't get and stay healthy? Is that all it is or is there something else going on here? For a team that won 60 something games last year, they're 14 and 11 despite playing 15 of their first 25 at home. And just I test doesn't look great to me period.

[B]

And so they won 64 games a year ago they were number one rated offensive team in the league. They're 10th this year. So and that's injuries have a lot to do with that. Darius Garland, even when he has played, is not look quite the same. He does not look as explosive or as quick or just as dynamic as he was. Even on the nights he's played they haven't had. Max Drew, Sam Merrill, who's important for them, has missed a lot of time. Jared Allen's only played 10 games. Injuries matter in this league a lot. We talk about it a lot. They've definitely dealt with more than their share, but it's more than that. I don't think they're that tough of a team and I don't think they play quite hard enough. I also think, Zach, is there a cumulative effect that's kind of taken route with this team of last year? Best offense in the NBA, 64 wins. Pedal to the metal, full throttle. Watch them all year and there were nights you're like, man, how are you going to guard this team? And at the end of the day, they get bounced and they go out with a whimper in the playoffs. And does that carry over to the next year where you're kind of like, well.

They don't feel quite the same as like the regular season, man. Like, I see the finish line, like, we're going to get there, we're out ahead of the pack, we're dominating the Eastern Conference. Nobody can catch it. And it's almost like when you lose the way that they did and like there's such, it's such a letdown the way the year ended. You take that into the summer. I almost feel like I'm watching a team that's kind of feeling that way about themselves a little bit. Well, what does all this even mean? Like, who cares about being the number one rated offensive team, winning 64 games? Like, it wasn't good enough. So it's almost like the regular season, maybe it means a little bit less than it did to them a year ago as well. Because when I watch them, I don't see that same level of intensity. I only called one of their games this year was opening night against the Knicks in New York, and the Knicks were significantly more intense and played a lot harder in that game. Donovan Mitchell had his monster third quarter that made it a game other than that, the Knicks took it to him and you're kind of watching it going, oh, it's interesting start to the year for them, but it's kind of been like that all year and the injuries are a big part of it and maybe they'll get all these guys back and go on a roll. It remains to be seen. But there's an edge to them that's not there that I look at with some of the other teams that I really like watching. And I look at the Cavs and I go, there's something missing with their mental and physical toughness and just their intensity in general. And maybe they just got to get healthy and they'll feel better about themselves and they'll go on another run and we'll forget about a lot of that.

[A]

I'm worried I'VE been worried almost the entire year. I came into the year and I called this an existential crisis season for the Cavs. Like this big. This four guys either works or we get to the end of the year and they're not going to all be on the same team after the off season again. And it didn't work. And now I think it's only gotten more accelerated than that. Here's your case for optimism if you're a Cavs fan. They are 22nd in three point shooting and they're and they are allowing the 10th highest three point shooting percentage from their opponents. Just that normalizing is probably worth like three wins and they're 17 and eight and none of this is an issue. Right?

With Mitchell and Mobley on the floor together, they're plus 7.5 per 100 possessions. Great number. Not as good as last year, but good. With Mobley and Allen on the floor together plus 10 per 100 possessions. Then you look like, let me look at their numbers with the big four on the floor plus 1.8 per 100 possessions. Well, that's not very good. And then you look at Garland. They are getting blitzed with Garland on the floor. And just watching every game you watch, watch the most recent one against the War. If you just watch Darius Garland, there's like three instances in every game where you can see his toe acting up. Like you can see him wince. You can see him limp for a couple steps, you could. And it's just like this isn't going away. And that to me is the number one reason for worry is that I just like, I don't understand. I just, it seems like it's just a, like permanent is too strong a word. It's not going away right now. Jared Allen's kind of been underwhelming and when he's out, I wonder what you your answer to this. I watched their couple of their most recent games with this question in mind. Why isn't it a little easier for Evan Mobley and their offense in general when Evan Mobley is playing center? Like why aren't there more spread pick and roll, easy baskets for him? What is your thought about that question?

[B]

Yeah, I agree with that. I watch them some nights and I think to myself like he, it's almost like he, he picks up the crumbs sometimes. Like there's no, you know what I mean? It's not intentional like what we're trying to do because of his versatile skill set and he is a very versatile offensive player. He's added deep Shooting to his game, which that was something he didn't really think much about the first couple years in the league. He's now become more of a threat out there. He's got really soft touch with either hand. If he gets in the paint, he could put it down a little bit better. He's added some. A little bit of escapability with his handle. But I agree with you. I think it should be far easier to get him an advantage almost every trip if that's what you want to do. Particularly against switching teams because of his size and his ability now to do more with the basketball and the fact that he can shoot over the top a little bit easier. He doesn't have to be wide open for an open 18 foot face up jumper. Like he can do more than that now on the perimeter to get his own shot. It feels like there's nights I watch him and there's still like a quietness to his game some quarters when you watch him that's surprising because I think he's better than that.

[A]

Yeah. And I was watching specifically the Mitchell Mobley and Garland Mobley pick and roll with him at center with the floor spread around him. Like teams are obviously sending help towards him on the catch. And that happens to every big man. He just seems to sort of have just a tiny bit of hesitation in his game sometimes where he doesn't want to just force his way through little tiny corridors that other guys will just ram through. And that's fine. Like he gets a lot of assists that way and he still has averaging 20 points a game. It's just not as. Nothing is as easy as it was last year. I do think when Strus comes back it will be an interesting moment for them because DeAndre Hunter has sort of taken that starting spot and he's been good for them. But the way Streuss moves around the floor and the speed with which he runs every cut, just always moving. I think might be a better fit for their starting five than Hunter. Hunter looks like a better defensive player than Truce. I'm not sure that he actually is. I think he's a little overrated in that sense. I wonder if that would kind of juice them up a little bit. But I don't know. I'm.

It's not. It doesn't look great. All right. I asked you to pick your all stars, 12 from each conference. I went through this last year just to. Last week rather just to get a feel for this new ballot where I need a minimum of 16 US players and a minimum of eight international players for this goofy round robin All Star game because we just can't have a normal All Star game anymore. And I ended up with, depending on how you classify Karl Anthony Towns, I classified him as a US player. For my purposes, I ended up with 15American players and nine international players, which means I would have had to add another US Player. Start. Start. In the east, you just. Just rattle off your 12, 12 All Star picks in the east.

[B]

Okay? Cade Cunningham.

Jalen Brunson, Jalen Brown, Tyrese Maxey, Donovan Mitchell, Jalen Johnson, Jalen Duran, Cat and Bam. That is what, nine.

Guys? That's nine USA players.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And then the three. The three other guys I added who go to the world team. Franz Wagner, Giannis, and Giddy.

[A]

Giddy. All right, so you have no Norm Powell. That's a difference between you and me.

[B]

You got Norm instead of Bam or you can't have both.

[A]

I have Norm over Bamboo.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

No Evan Mobley.

[B]

That was kind. I was torn between Norman, Norman Powell and Band myself. Being honest.

I don't have Mobley either.

[A]

And no Scotty Barnes.

[B]

Yeah, I didn't have. Yeah, yeah, I know. You have both of those guys.

[A]

Yeah, I have my placing.

[B]

Replacing who? Gideon.

[A]

Who by? I have no Bam. I have no Giddy. And who else did you have there at the end, Cat? No, I have. I'll just name mine again. And I'm revising. I've Cade Brunson, Cat Mitchell, Jaylen Brown, Jalen Johnson, Tyrese Maxey and Giannis. And then we differ. I have Scotty Barnes, I have Mobley penciled in.

[B]

Oh, so you don't have Jalen Duran.

[A]

I might put Duran in over Mobley. He's like my next guy in.

[B]

I would be. It would be very difficult to not reward Duran for the year Detroit's had. If you look at his numbers at Mobley's, I. That would be tough for me to go with. To go with Mobley over Duran. Mobley's a better all around player, but Duran's been. Duran's been very consistently dominant, man. Yeah.

[A]

And. And as people would say, well, he's. He's more of a kind of a moocher on offense like catching lobs and offensive rebounds. He's actually doing quite a bit of self creation in their offense, both as a scorer and a passer, so I wouldn't mind that. And then I had Franzen and my replacement. The guy I felt worst about was Siakam, who's just quietly having this like 24, 7 and 6 season. And yeah, it's easy to say, well, we have to reward winning and blah, blah, blah. I mean, The Pacers are -4 with Siakam on the floor and -17 when he's on the bench. He's just propping up this now, now getting healthy and part of the reason I'm thinking about him and Duran is we could flash forward three weeks and Indiana could start winning like a normal amount of games because they're getting healthy like it's still below.500, but their record wouldn't look like this. And the Pistons could fall back and have already started to fall back at least a little bit. They've won two in a row now. But I, you, you can't go wrong with any of people. I had Franz and I would give his spot to Siakam if Franz is, is injured. No, Scotty Barnes is a tough one. What is, what does Scotty Barnes have to do to get some.

[B]

I know man, I'm with you. And I guess, you know, be a lot of people would take him over Giddy. I guess, you know, I'm looking at.

[A]

Look, I can't, I can't take Giddy's. Giddy's.

[B]

Listen, if Chicago, Listen, if Chicago this. And I think part of that was probably more probably about 10 days late with Giddy, right. Because their team has sort of nosedived but they had this incredible year and he's still his, his numbers, he's still 29 and 9 with great shooting splits too. He's almost 40% from the 3 which was such an Achilles heel for him. So shooting split.

[A]

To be clear, he's on my like final cuts list. I just couldn't quite get there.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean it's, it's. I, I have no problem whatsoever if anybody is going to give a spot to, to Scotty Barnes. Some people might even put Ingram on there because you're going to get somebody from Toronto with, you know, they've had a very good, you know, first 25 games or whatever. Some people would do that. Scotty Barnes is, you know, their best all around player. So I'd be perfectly fine with that. And again, like I wrote these names down. Like Giddy is like holding on but their team continues to, to. He won't be in, I don't think in consideration if they, they continue to lose games over the, over the month of December.

[A]

If I had to pick between guys I didn't put on, I would put Bam over Giddy and I might put Bam on anyway. Look, his offensive numbers are never going to look spectacular. He's like 19 and 9. His shooting's just okay. What that dude does defensively, plugging every hole and guarding anybody, that the guy is just a flat out winner. And if you want to reward that, that's fine. And Siakov, I just want to say his name because he's not going to get mentioned. He's going to get overlooked because the Pacers record, he's been sensational for the Pacers, and I think probably deserves one of these spots, particularly if Franz is injured and can't go. All right, let's go out to the west, where, spoiler alert. The field is deeper and tougher, and the final cuts are pretty painful. Who you got?

[B]

All right, so I've got 12 names listed. Six are us, six are world. Okay, us players. Steph Curry.

[A]

Check.

[B]

Kevin Durant.

[A]

Check.

[B]

Anthony Edwards.

[A]

Check.

[B]

Devin Booker.

[A]

No, check.

[B]

You don't have Devin Booker.

[A]

Okay, we'll see, we'll get there.

[B]

Chad Holgren.

[A]

Check.

[B]

Austin Reeves.

[A]

Check.

[B]

And then world, guys. Luca.

[A]

Check.

[B]

Shay.

[A]

Check.

[B]

Joker.

[A]

Check.

[B]

Chengun.

[A]

Check. Wemby. Check.

[B]

Denny Avia.

[A]

Check.

[B]

That's my 12. So you did not. So the only one. We were different. Who do you have over Booker? Jamal Murray.

[A]

Jamal Murray. Okay.

[B]

Yeah, that was. That was my. That was my coin flip. Honestly, that was my coin flip. Here's the. And here's the only. Here's the only reason I decided, literally this was the debate. 11 names I wrote down really quickly, and then I got to that last one.

[A]

It's tough in the west, man. It's tough. It's tough. Like, we didn't even mention Lowry Market, who's one of my final guys out, and he's averaging like 28 points a game.

[B]

Here's ultimately why I. Why I went with Reeves over Murray. And again, man, coin flip. I don't easily could be Murray.

For the most part. Like, there's not Knights when Murray has had to be their best player because he's playing next to Jokic. Like, there have been nights the Lakers can't win or haven't been able to win or wouldn't win if Austin Reaves wasn't their best player on that given night. And so the burden he's had to carry with LeBron out nights, he played without Luca, too. And I called one of those games when he hit the buzzer beater.

And he had 28 points, like 14 assists, and was getting everything thrown at him defensively against Minnesota that you can imagine. And he still did whatever he wanted to with the ball. And it hits the floater at the buzzer to win the game. I'm saying there's nights his burden has been so much higher because he hasn't had those guys next to him or he's had one of them. But even on those nights he's been like the guy for long stretches of games. Murray's been great and he's a big reason why Denver is like in the championship mix again, because he's playing so well. But he doesn't have that burden most of the time. He always does have Joker out there and it's going to be him dictating things. Reeves has had nights where he's had to do it and he has. And as a result, you look up and the Lakers have the record they have despite all the time missed from LeBron and time missed from Luke as well.

[A]

Let me be clear, this is not a Jamal Murray, Austin Reeves argument for me.

[B]

I'm sorry, Austin Reeves, you're right, is a lock. Austin Reeves is a lock.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Your argument was with Booker.

[A]

Yeah. So I'll do that. But Austin Reeves, like 100% CO sign. He's in. He makes the All Star team. What a story. Undrafted, two way to this. Averaging 29 points a game. Almost crazy. No brainer all star Jamal Murray, 25 points, seven assists, four and a half rebounds, 51% shooting, 45% on threes, 55% on twos. Devin Booker, 25 points a game, seven assists a game, four and a half rebounds a game. Basically the same stats, 46% shooting, 31 and a half on threes, 52 on twos. Now he is the best player on the Phoenix Suns and has to be the best player on the Phoenix Suns. Jamal Murray has the luxury of playing with the best player in basketball. I just, I look at the shooting percentages, I look at the injuries to Denver's starting five. I look at the fact that they have finally been able to stay afloat without Jokic on the floor. And Murray is part of those lineups and I'm just going to give him the award of you're shooting the bejesus out of it. You've had a couple Monster Games, a 52 point game recently, I'm putting you in. Booker is a brutal omission and it doesn't end there. Lowry, Markkanen, I mean, what am I supposed to say to Utah fans? He's having a sensational season. I don't know what else to say except there's, you know, a lot of guys. Abdia, I think might raise Some eyebrows from people who aren't paying attention. His numbers are awesome and the Blazers are a positive. Plus scoring margin with him on the floor, minus 13 per 100 possessions. When he's off the floor and he has to play point guard for a team who all their point guards are injured, he's in. Lowry's a brutal omission and he would be an easy case for him. Julius Randle is a brutal omission. You can make an easy case for him. The one that's going to be polarizing is Harden, who has had maybe the best off season of his career post Houston. And, and people are going to say, well, you're just punishing him because of the Clippers record. How could you do that and make an argument for Siakam or whatever? Well, number one, it's the West. The field is just deeper. The standards are higher. Number two, he's had a great season. There's no question about it. The Clippers are, are bad, and he is averaging. Let me bring it up. 27, 8 and 5. 44% shooting, 37% on threes, 54% on twos. He's an iron man. He plays every game. I don't really have a great argument against it other than who am I removing from this crazy field of guys in the west when Chet's got to be on like Oklahoma City's got to have two all Stars. There's just no question he's worthy of it. I don't know who to pick. And I do think as sensational as Harden's numbers are, offensively, his defense has been bad, even by his standards, and that's the reason, not him, but their defense is the reason why they're bad. So I, I'm, I'm sweating hairs. I gotta leave them off. And you left them off too, I guess.

[B]

Yeah. Now, look, I do want to ask you a question. Just looking at this. So if you. We were 11. We were 11 for 12 in terms of agreeing in the West. So let's say you were right. It's Murray instead of Booker. Murray goes to the World team. Right?

[A]

I need, I need to add one American team. I need.

[B]

You gotta add America. You gotta. That was my point. You have to add an American.

And maybe that's where Booker gets in.

[A]

I, I, who would be. I'd have to look and it would.

[B]

Either be Booker or Scotty Barnes.

[A]

Well, for me, it wouldn't be Scotty Barnes, because I would have him. Oh, it could be Randall, it could be Booker, it could be. Bam. In my Case.

[B]

That's right. Because you didn't have bam. You had power.

[A]

Can't be power. Poor Larry Markin, the Internet. I think the international guys have a, have a toug road to climb here than the US Guys, honestly. Particularly if Wemby, I mean Wemby's going to get in despite the games missed and we haven't even. But like there's also this possibility of. I don't, I have to refresh my memory, but you would imagine LeBron is going to win the fan vote somehow. Like I don't know that is. But like, yeah, he doesn't even. He hasn't played enough. These are not easy decisions, man. And some of these guys like Lowry market and dab the season he's having and not make an all star game would be a tough pill to swallow.

[B]

Well, Abdia too, I'm wondering like there's going to be people that are going to just flat out look, you know, look, they're 9 and 15 right now. I mean, you know, move that forward over there. They play at the same winning percentage over the month of December, you know, first half of January when these things are being decided, there's going to be people who knows, like Dallas starts winning games, they pass them. Now Portland's not even in play in territory. There are going to be people that are going to use that against him. Despite these numbers and despite that, you know the, the metrics you put out there and how bad they are with these off the floor, there are going to be people. That's. And that's why, honestly, that's why I didn't even consider Pascal Siakam, James Harden. Like for me you got one team with five wins, one team with, with six. That, that's, that's tough, man. You know, you're winning 25% of your games that I didn't even really even look there as great as Seattle.

[A]

I get it, I get it. Because there are no saying obviously games.

[B]

Obvious could trend in that direction. Man, if they hit a, if they had a six or seven game losing streak at some point it's going to be tough for him to get in as well. Because I think winning should matter. It does matter. Right now, 9 to 15, like, okay, you're still kind of alive if your numbers are this good to be in it. But you might look up a month from now and that those numbers and that discrepancy between wins and losses might be too much for people to overcome in their minds.

[A]

I would like to propose something to you. I think we should create a 13th for each conference All Star spot. We don't. It doesn't matter where you're from. This is. This is the. We're going to call it the Rodman spot. And now Rodman made two All Star teams. You have to be averaging fewer than 10 points a game, and your team has to be above.500. We get to pick one such player every year from each conference. And like, because I. The guy that I would nominate, the top of mind guy is there's got to be something for what Steven Adams is doing in Houston. The guy comes in and the entire game changes for the Rockets. He gets every rebound. He's blocking shots at the rim, throwing passes. He can score a little bit if he gets offensive. And you can see, like, they played the Kings over the weekend. The Kings stink. We know that. But he was faced off against Maxine Reynald, the guy that. The rookie center who's just.

[B]

I. You.

[A]

You have like. I bet Stephen Adams walked into that game thinking, this poor guy, he's got no shot, man. I'm just going to bulldoze. I'm going to bulldoze him into the second row and get every rebound. I think that's my proposal. We got to have a Rodman All Star spot, and those are the rules. Less than.

15 is above.500.

[B]

I like that a lot. I mean, I. To recognize a guy in that way that's so important to your team's success, but it's never going to have the kind of numbers that are going to ever get him in a real genuine conversation for the All Star Game. They'll be. That would. That would be tremendous.

[A]

Maybe less than 12 points a game to open the door for a few more guys who. Who can score a little bit. But I don't. We could.

[B]

And I'd have to. Since you. Since I didn't know you were going.

[A]

To hit me with that.

[B]

I. I'm gonna think about it, and the next time that we get together, we'll give our name for who that guy is.

[A]

Well, mine is Stephen Adams in the. In the.

[B]

No matter what.

[A]

All right.

[B]

You got it.

[A]

In the East, I'd have to think about it. I mean, Mitchell Robinson is like a pretty close archetype, but he hasn't. He's missed a lot of games. I'd have to. I'd have to think a little bit. It's a stupid. Like the cut. The points cut off is. Is maybe arbitrary, but anyway. Tim Legler, when do we next see you? We got the All City Podcast what's.

[B]

The All City is. Yeah, All City is a couple of days a week, so that's usually typically Mondays and Wednesdays, of course. Doing stuff with you guys this year. Yeah. And I don't have. But I'm not as far as calling a game. You know, I'm. I'm the regular, regular game analyst now. But we lost a lot of time to Amazon and NBC. We had to give up some games, and a lot of those were here early in the year. So I called a game Thanksgiving Eve with my partners, Mike Breen and Richard Jefferson. You won't see us calling another game actually on anywhere on ESPN or ABC between Thanksgiving, even Christmas. So that's the next breakout day. Five games on Christmas. We'll have a big one. Houston at the Lakers. We got Christmas Day, so that'll be the next game that I call. Can't wait for that. And then after the first of the year, we'll get back to our normal stuff. Well, you'll be seeing me all the time on games.

[A]

Well, look, the best in the business, the iPad Legend. It's. And it's been a great. It's been a great fit. You get in there and you just fit right in with Breen and RJ. And RJ. Look, I guess RJ's like, you know, you got to elbow in and get your words in when you're sitting next to rj. But it's a great broadcast, Tim. You're. You're the best. Appreciate your time.

[B]

Well, a lot of people have said that about me, too, over the years, Zach. So we've. It's been great, man. Great chemistry, great dudes building a great friendship. The more reps we get, we cannot wait to see what we have in store the second half of the season. I appreciate you having me. Always love talking with you, man. You're as good as.

[A]

Maybe you'll do the season finale Thunder game and they'll have 73 wins and that'll be awesome. Maybe. Maybe it'll be 79 and two go into their last game. Who the hell knows? Thanks, bud.

[B]

You got it. See you.

[A]

All right, that's it for today's edition of the Zach Low Show. We will be back later this week, probably on Thursday with our usual second episode. Thanks to Jonathan, Mike, Billy and Jesse on production. Thanks to you all for listening and watching the Zach Low Show. Thanks to the great Tim Legler, we will see you all soon.

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