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- [00:00]
Zach Lowe
You're listening to the Zach Lowe show presented by FanDuel. America's number one sportsbook is the best place to bet on the NBA because not only does FanDuel have all your favorite player props, but now you can even check out stats and recent performance trends right in the app before you make your picks. Just download the FanDuel sportsbook app today to get in on the action. The ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit rg-help.com to learn more about the numerous resources and helplines available and listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Must be 21 or over in President Select States gambling problem called 1-800-GAMBLER or.
- [00:31]
Rob Mahoney
Visit rg-help.com this episode is brought to you by Shopify. Upgrade your business with Shopify, home of the number one checkout on the planet. Shop pay boosts conversions up to 50%, meaning fewer carts going abandoned and more sales going cha ching. So if you're into growing your business, get a commerce platform that's ready to sell wherever your customers are. Visit shopify.com to upgrade your selling today.
- [00:58]
Zach Lowe
All right, coming up on a loaded edition of the Zach Lowe Show. Rob Mahoney for the first time I'm such a longtime fan, we're hitting everything. The Lakers on the brink, the Aaron Gordon buzzer beater, The Tim Hardaway Jr. Non call, Celtics magic physicality, looking ahead to the next round. All coming up on an NBA Playoffs edition of the Zach Lowe Show.
- [01:19]
Rob Mahoney
Foreign.
- [01:25]
Zach Lowe
Welcome to the Zach Lowe show on a Monday morning Eastern Standard time. Oh my God, what a weekend. Rob Mahoney first time I've ever had you on an absolute thrill. I've been a fan for a long time. One third of the group Chat Bros that is maybe sneakily become my favorite NBA podcast that exists. I even watch it now. I'm like a modern person watching it now. What a weekend. I don't even know where to start. We had an all time great buzzer beater. Like literally we've never seen it before. We've had non calls that are going to infuriate multiple teams and the last two minute reports will be eagerly anticipated. We had copious fights and scrums and near fights and spiciness, a couple of injury scares and then sadly the place we have to start. One massive what appears to be a massive injury to Damian Lillard who left Game 4 of the Bucks Pacer series with what appears to be a torn Achilles. I don't even. I mean look it. It obviously sucks. Damian lillard is almost 35 years old. If this is indeed a torn Achilles, any discussion of it has to start with just Damian Lillard. The human being who built a legacy of greatness in Portland, got traded kind of against his will to Milwaukee, tried to make the best of it, came back very quickly from a blood clot issue to play in these playoffs. Didn't look like himself, not surprisingly, looked like he got tired at the end of games. Didn't impact the series the way that you would expect prime Damian Lillard to impact it. And now after a couple of games back, suffers one of the most devastating injuries in sports. A 35 year old small guard. This isn't Kevin Durant. This isn't a dude who's 7ft tall who can just bank on. I can it worst case for me is I can just be like Dirk Nowitzki, old Dirk, just raining jump shots. Just we don't know, 100% certainty. Everyone, all the comments last night were pessimistic. We're going to get to the future and what it means, but just this is a guy both of us kind of our professional careers kind of overlap almost exactly with Damian Lillard's entry from Weber State into the NBA. I remember watching him at summer league trying to pick apart his game. Not pick apart, but like, oh my gosh, something, something's interesting here. We all know, you know, there ain't too many players with two series winning walk off shots in the history of the NBA. I don't, I mean, just reaction, just gut reaction.
- [04:07]
Rob Mahoney
I think my gut reaction is kind of aligned with Dame's which is after, after this injury happened and he just sort of sat there with it and you know, is that resignation, is that acceptance? I don't know what he's going through in that particular moment, but when a player like Damian Lillard goes down and kind of stays down and particularly when he goes down grabbing the back of that ankle, we, we all know what that means. Like we all, we all know what he's reaching for and we all, all know kind of like what he is feeling in that moment in the sense seen it before. I really hope, desperately hope that this is not it for Damian Lillard. But I want to be really clear that even if Damian Lillard comes back and plays NBA basketball again, this injury is going to define the end game of his career. We are rounding a bend of a kind whether he plays another game or not. And that in itself sucks to say. And it sucks for Dame, obviously. It sucks for Bucks fans who've invested in this team and for this version of the Bucks and certainly for the future of the Bucks as you alluded to, we can talk about that. But ultimately I am a regular season basketball enthusiast. I have an incredible soft spot in my heart for the players who never quite make it to the mountaintop but play the game on their terms with a distinct style. And this is it for Dame, or more or less it for Dame. And we can save the full eulogizing for another day. But if this is kind of it, there are worse ways to make a career than being an ice cold killer for more than a decade and a beloved star who staked his claim to a franchise, who made an incredible run for himself, who will go to as one of the greatest shooters to ever live and just one of the coolest guards and coolest players of his era. I fucking love watching Damian Lillard play basketball. So from that perspective alone, I am bummed personally to not get to do that for at least the foreseeable future.
- [05:52]
Zach Lowe
It's one of the reasons what you said about regular season basketball enthusiasts. I might change my social media bio to that. It's one of the reasons that one of my favorite random NBA teams of all time is the 2018-19 Blazers who come off an absolute humiliation sweep at the hands of Anthony Davis and Drew Holiday the year before where Drew Holiday just single hand turns into like Michael Jordan plus Scotty Pippen for the entire series and destroys the Blazers.
- [06:22]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, embarrass those guys really in a.
- [06:24]
Zach Lowe
Series that you could look at and say well okay that's. That's a. Like you're never the same after that. You got to make some trade. You got to fire some people. And the Blazers didn't. They held the fort. They rebound next year and they make the Western Conference finals. This is the bye bye year against Oklahoma City when Dame makes the one of the all time great shots and then they beat Denver in a seven game slugfest in the next round and people kind of poo poo that conference finals run because they got smoked by the warriors in the conference finals. Totally overmatched. They got the bracket broke right for them. They got some health luck although they suffered their own health injuries health issues. Nurkic was hurt for I think in that entire playoff run for them and Cantor. That was like the Enes Kanter playoffs. You know what? I've said this many times before. Ask the LA Clippers about how easy it is to make a conference finals. Ask a bunch of these two. Ask the Charlotte Hornets haven't won A playoff series in like a thousand years. Never. Poo poo. Yeah. Brackets break, right? You get some luck, that's fine. A lot of teams are never able to put themselves in any kind of position to take advantage of that kind of luck. I love that team. I've always loved Dame. If you look back at my MVP ballots over the years, I always have him like a spot or two above consensus. And it just, it's. He's been pretty open about how rough the transition to Milwaukee was for him, personally. Yeah, I think he bought in the chemistry with Giannis just kind of never got to the point where we all thought it would be so easy for them on the pick and roll. And we can talk about that trade and revisit it. And I didn't think they were going to win this series with Dame. Without Dame, I just didn't think they were good enough. But this is just for an NBA, for NBA diehards who are up watching blazers jazz at 11:30 Eastern Time. He's a beloved player. There's just. And he's a beloved leader. And he's, he's just. It just sucks.
- [08:13]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, he's, he's the kind of player who makes that sort of basketball. And really those sorts of teams that you're talking about mean something. There are a lot, there are lots of teams, frankly, even those who have gone on conference finals runs who just like get lost in time, who get lost even within the cities that they play for, maybe because those cities have outsized championship level success. And so some of the other years feel like also rans. I'm going to remember Damian Lillard forever as a basketball player, and I'm going to remember some of those Blazers teams forever. And certainly the people of Portland will in particular like his relationship with that city and with that franchise. He's basically synonymous. He's going to go down as the greatest Blazer ever. It's a shame that he's not going to go down as a great buck particularly, but that's the reality of where he was at this stages of his career. And as you said, the fact that it was not the destination he picked, but it's one that he tried to make the best of basketball wise. I, for me, that was, that was one of those trades that I would make it again. For the record, if I'm in Milwaukee's position, I understand the logic of it. I understand their urgency in trying to find that kind of offensive help. Maybe you settle jrue holiday to another destination that is not going to be Portland so that he doesn't end up in Boston. Maybe that's the great do over part of that trade. But pairing a shooter with the firepower of Damian Lillard with Giannis, I will always understand the logic of that. Even though on the court, as you said, they never quite found it. They got better over time and I think maybe got better in a way where they never fully got the credit for it. Right. It was kind of incremental, slow building progress for them in terms of their pick and roll chemistry. They did find something that worked, just not something that worked at a high enough level to really contend in the East.
- [09:53]
Zach Lowe
Look, there are a lot of moves you can knock the Bucks of the last six to seven years over.
- [09:58]
Rob Mahoney
Certainly.
- [09:59]
Zach Lowe
I always go back to one of the stupid podcast things that I was happiest about in my retrospective of looking back was squeezing in a rant about Dante Givencenzo for Serge Ibaka at the end of whatever trade deadline podcast that was is like, I just don't understand. Everybody liked that trade and I was for the Bucks. And I was like, has anyone watched Serge Ibaka? Like, I just don't trade Wing for Watchdog Big ever. Not one time. The draft picks that were missed. The Kuzma trade is obviously a disaster, which included one of the only draft picks that who knows, it may end up being a hit for the Bucks. A.J. johnson, I'm with you on the Dame trade. I will defend it until the end. Now you could say, did they overreact to the Miami series in which they just fell apart completely? Giannis missed most of the series. Uh, Bud did not cover himself in glory in that series. They fire Bud Butler, bullies Drew Holiday, and it feels to them like the end of the road for this team. Like we just don't have enough offense. And they make this trade and they get Giannis then to sign an extension a month later, which in itself is a huge victory for that trade. Look, it didn't, it, it hasn't worked. And one of the reasons it didn't work, as you said, is they couldn't control Jrue Holiday's destination and it ended up being a worst case scenario for them. Another reason it didn't work is that Dame is 34 and got older a little faster than I think we expected.
- [11:25]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [11:26]
Zach Lowe
Another reason it didn't work is that the Dame Giannis pick and roll never turned in to the Steph Draymond 2.0. Except the Draymond in this is a seven foot monster who can lob, dunk, everything I don't know why it didn't. I suspect part of the reason why is that Giannis didn't want to set 40 screens a game. And that's fine. He's above that in that he is above that. Another reason it didn't work is that teams just sold out on it. From preseason game one, it was clear, like Brook Lopez, you're going to be allowed to shoot whoever you're going to be allowed to shoot. Another reason the trade didn't work is part of the logic, and I echoed this logic, was, yeah, you hurt your defense by trading Jrue Holiday, one of the best perimeter defenders in the league. Your base defense is a drop back scheme that doesn't work if the guy pursuing the ball handler isn't hounding that guy from behind and challenging all those shots and making all those looks extra difficult. But who are we kidding? If you have Giannis and Brook Lopez, you have the foundation of an elite defense for the next couple of years. And Brook Lopez got benched in this series against Indiana. He was too slow for the series and that didn't hold up either. And it's tempting to look back and say, what happens if they don't make the Dame trade? Are we just in the same spot anyway, given what has happened to Khris Middleton's career? But I guess the difference would be you're in the same spot. But let's say you've stood pat. You still have all the draft picks that you no longer have. You still have the ability to trade Jrue Holiday, which you no longer have. Now you don't have the ability to trade Damian Lillard, which was the last bullet left in the can we salvage this thing around Giannis and nobody wants to have this conversation. I don't want to have this conversation. You don't want to have this conversation. Opposing teams who I contacted last night, who would theoretically be Giannis suitors, already do not want to have this conversation. They're in mourning, too. It is unfortunately unavoidable just to say this. They can't trade Dame. That pivot is gone. This team cannot win with Giannis. There is no path to them winning big in the playoffs anymore. They do not control their draft pick through 2030. So they cannot tank. And they just. There just isn't enough here. There's no path to a championship team, and everyone understands that. The Bucks understand that. Giannis surely must understand that. And all that's left to do now is for Giannis and the Bucks, maybe individually, maybe in conjunction, but ultimately no Matter what happens, it's going to be up to Giannis to decide what to do with that reality. Do we sit in it and be a one team star forever and do our best and that's cool, and hope there's some miraculous set of events that deliver some talent here that I just could not possibly foresee? Or do we not? And that's just where we are. I don't want to get into like the fake trades, but look, the uncomfortable reality is there is no path to this team winning in the next three or four years. They don't control their draft, there's just nothing they can do. And it's now just up to Giannis to sit with that and decide his career.
- [14:38]
Rob Mahoney
And from that perspective, it's just impossible to begrudge him basically whatever he wants, right? He has been with this team now for going on a decade. I think he has the right to make that call, to look around and say, I am one of the best players in the world. Even still, maybe the third best player in the league, if not better than that.
- [14:56]
Zach Lowe
And also, you know what they can never take away? No one can ever take away the ring. That's right. They got a ring. Drew got a ring. Everything after that has not gone great, but they got a championship. Never, ever, ever. Nitpick the draft picks, nitpick the trades, whatever. They got a championship. It's the whole reason we do this. And they got one anyway.
- [15:17]
Rob Mahoney
Sorry, but everything that went into that championship, as you alluded to, is mostly gone at this point. The city of Milwaukee is obviously there, but most of his teammates are gone. His coach from that team is gone. Yes, we got Brook Lopez over here. We got whatever is left of Pat Connaughton over there. Like there's some. Some remnants. But it's telling that, like you said, the Chris Middleton trade for me. And granted, I don't want to be Chris Middleton guy on yet another podcast, but I will, because I am Chris Middleton guy on every podcast. There was something particularly soulless about trading him for Kyle Kuzma of this is. This is a really important player to the history of your franchise, and you are so desperate under these circumstances that you're going to grasp at Washington Wizards Kyle Kuzma to say, maybe this is the kind of thing that could shake something loose in our rotation. Maybe this will let us play giannis at the 5. Whatever your rationale might be, I get it. I get the desperation in that moment. But it speaks to where you are and how far you've come that it's like okay, I guess we just have to eject. Even a very injured maybe will never be healthy fully healthy again at a contending level. Khris Middleton probably will not for the sake of chasing something that just is not there. Because you're trading Giannis's basically best teammate after Dame, who now is going to be out for the foreseeable future for Kyle Kuzma, the next best guy on the team after that. Who would you even say is the next best buck? Because as you mentioned, Brook Lopez can get played off the floor in a series like this. Also by the way is 37 years old. But I don't like is it, is it Gary Trent Jr like legitimately who is the next best buck?
- [16:52]
Zach Lowe
Could be him, could be Bobby Porter. AJ Green is just does what he does consistently. Yeah. You know you mentioned Middleton and are we here anyway no matter what. Although obviously the opportunity cost is what it is of doing the Dame trade and having it backfire. I look back at that 2022 Bucs team as a big, big what if with Middleton missing essentially the entire playoffs and yet they still go toe to toe with Boston in a seven game series that ends in what will forever be remembered as the Grant Williams game without Middleton. And I've said this before, everyone that I know on the Celtics within the Celtics came out of that series with one universal reaction which was we never want to see that fucking dude in a playoff series again. About Giannis, that's how good he was that year and he's still incredible. He's probably 97% as good as he was in that year, maybe a little bit less than that. And they had a championship team that year with, with Drew still and Middleton wasn't there and they just didn't have enough and, and then they, they, they pivoted the next year the way they pivoted and I, I, you know, it just, it just, we all know, you know, Nets, Rockets, Heat, whoever else wants to get into it. Knicks, we'll see. A lot of it will depend on the playoffs, you know, and, and, and what happens to some of these teams in the next round or two or whatever.
- [18:15]
Rob Mahoney
And I want to say this on that front like I as an observer of the league, the NBA is a better place if Giannis Antetokounmpo is a Milwaukee buck. If he is kind of carrying and propping up that franchise and making them a contender. The NBA is a more interesting place if he loses his ability to do that because of everything we've described the empty coffers in terms of draft picks, the depreciating roster around him that now is going to be years away from even being healthy, much less good enough to do anything with it. Like that's such a bummer that I like we have to have these conversations. We have to talk about where Giannis could conceivably go but losing the Bucks as a a landmark on the NBA map for I want to also want to be very clear about this. Who knows how long like this is an Giannis leaving, given all the draft picks out the door is an ice age level event for the Milwaukee.
- [19:05]
Zach Lowe
Unlike what we saw the Brooklyn Nets do, they have no vehicle to get those draft picks back. Like the Nets got some of their picks back because they had Phoenix draft assets. There was this theoretical like, could Atlanta get their picks back by trading Trae Young to the Spurs? Like that wasn't a crazy, implausible idea. There's no pathway that I can see any way to reclaiming ownership of those picks. And it's just, it's just, you know, Look, Giannis has two years plus one left on his deal after this Dame has two years left to play. Our option for 58.5 million and 26, 27. It just sucks. It all sucks. And here the Pacers are again. Now I thought the Pacers were going to win this series anyway. Now they're almost certainly going to win it. Up 3, 1 going home, Tyrese Halliburton just cackling, literally cackling on the floor after every play that he makes and a looming Pacers Cavs series. That is kind of interesting. And just as an aside, I asked you to pick a team of the weekend for this wild weekend just to go deep cut. I picked the Cavs because I thought that Cavs Game 3 performance in Miami was like cruel championship cruelty. Like, we are coming to take the soul of your franchise. We are going to extinguish any hope you have of like, oh, we're coming home. Like, someone will get hot, maybe we can steal a game. And they came and they were like, we are going to dig your grave, throw you in the grave, stomp on your face a few more times, bury your corpse, and then light the whole graveyard on fire. And I was like, oh my God, this is a nasty fucking team. I think they're going to beat the Pacers in the next round. But the Pacers have some interesting answers to throw at him. And the last thing I'll say, all the shirts that the teams are wearing that you'd say like, Win it for the Bay. Win it for. I like that the Pacers went away from win it. And they have yes, sir. I'm like, oh, you know what? Don't love the pun. It's not great. It's kind of artful in, like, its own silly way. But I like it. I'm going to give them props for yes sir. I would take a yes sirs shirt and wear it around 100%.
- [21:16]
Rob Mahoney
I think we just focus grouped out every other permutation of winning it for your home city. Slash strength and numbers slash all of the playoff slogans to death. So you have to get weird like we are. We are at that level of depravity where we have to do team puns in order to just make this thing work. So I salute Indiana for doing it.
- [21:33]
Zach Lowe
I'm interested to see what shirt the Grizzlies come out for for game five because I think they have the. They have the Thunder figured out, right?
- [21:41]
Rob Mahoney
They do.
- [21:42]
Zach Lowe
They think they've really figured that one out.
- [21:43]
Rob Mahoney
They're fully stocked, you know, 21 grenade salute for the Memphis Grizzlies.
- [21:47]
Zach Lowe
Look out, look out. OKC in game five. Back in the Thunderdome. Okay, are we ready to move on to series number two?
- [21:58]
Rob Mahoney
Sure.
- [21:59]
Zach Lowe
Wolves. Lakers. Holy fuck. What a wild game for in Minnesota. The Wolves take both games at home to go up 3 1. The Lakers are on the brink. The end game of this was so crazy that my notes are like just a page long on that. LeBron had a block, a strip.
- [22:20]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [22:21]
Zach Lowe
And then Jaden McDaniels got an and one to put Minnesota up one on a beautiful play by and who capped a masterpiece game by stringing out a trap. Didn't panic. I'm gonna string this out. Gonna string this out. Found Nas Reed, who was sensational, who found McDaniels. And then all hell broke loose in the game with Minnesota up by one. Luka brought the ball up and fell. Slash. Got tripped. Slash. The last two minute report will be interesting. JJ is mad about it. And then LeBron threw away the inbound splash. Slash. It was stolen. Then Ant fell and looked to be falling before LeBron hit his wrist and what was a foul, but he looked to be slipping anyway. It was called a foul on a a plus challenge by Chris Finch, who has coached a fantastic series every way around. Ant made the two free throws. Then it looked like Minnesota was trying to foul up three and didn't. And Alston Reeves got a corner three and missed.
- [23:18]
Rob Mahoney
And now a really good look, we should say, for Austin Reeves like that. That's a plausible heartbreaker right? Just right there as it hangs in the air.
- [23:25]
Zach Lowe
Didn't it look like they were trying, like Randall kind of hugged Luca and I was like, I think they're trying to foul up three. They should have fouled up three and they didn't. And they almost fucking paid the price for it. Where do you want to even start with this? The Lakers are on the brink. Luke is getting roasted. Nico Harrison has got the sneer going somewhere, maybe, as I know, close to home for you. And oh my God, I should have led with this. J.J. redick played the same lineup for an entire half of. He certainly did, which I have never seen in my life. And what an insane game. You start wherever you want. I don't even know where to start.
- [24:00]
Rob Mahoney
I want to start. You mentioned the Cavs as your team of the weekend. You also wanted to talk MVPs of the weekend. I think it has to be Ant. For me.
- [24:08]
Zach Lowe
We both choose Ant. Ant is the MVP of the weekend.
- [24:10]
Rob Mahoney
Basic ass answer. But like, this was a jaw dropping performance in a game that was absolutely sick. And I also say it because I think when we tell the story of Anth, at whatever point we want to step back and do that, I think we're going to talk about this game or more importantly, talk about this series, right? Like, this was a moment and I think all the great players have them. For Ant, it was going toe to toe with maybe the greatest player of all time, this other young superstar who bounced him out of the Western Conference finals last year and not only beating those guys, but doing it with a level of precision that you only get from a truly rare class of player. And so Ant won the game. He went up 3:1. Like, it's an incredible accomplishment in those senses. I just think he announced himself in whatever way that Anthony Edwards still needs to announce himself. And overall, I just remain absolutely gobsmacked by the fact that Anthony Edwards, four games into the series, six total turnovers in this series, I never thought I would see it. And I think there were kind of two paths for him to get to this level of, as you said, getting off the ball, playmaking, making advanced reads in the biggest possible moments. One of the paths was becoming a Luka or LeBron level, cross court, weak side playmaker. One of the hardest things in basketball to do. Maybe he. Maybe he'll get there someday, maybe he won't. The other path that I don't think we talked about enough was will he get better at making the simple pressure Release plays, and will the players around him be good enough to do things with those plays to justify it? And I think that's where you're seeing incredible. Jaden McDaniels minutes, incredible. Julius Randle minutes, incredible. Like Dante DiVincenzo in crunch time, like you're getting all the contributions you need to justify the best player on the floor giving up the ball. And it, it feels right in the moment. It feels like the logical play.
- [25:55]
Zach Lowe
No one needed another playoff appearance like Julius Randle needed another playoff appearance because his playoff numbers before this series in a very small sample, were so atrociously bad, they looked like they were implausible. And the sample size got bigger. And Julius Randle, he's guarding LeBron. He's attacking all the right matchups, even when he attacks what I would consider the suboptimal matchups. He's getting stuff out of it. He's throwing the right pass. No turnovers in 25 points in 43 minutes against the Lakers on Sunday. And Ant you mentioned it, like, you know, the game slows down is a cliche that we use all the time. This is a case where I think you can actually see it happening because this is a very simple series for Ant. The Lakers are switching almost everything. He's picking whatever matchup he wants. A lot of times it's Luka. He seemed to get a soft spot for attacking Rui Hachimura down the stretch yesterday. I don't, I don't know what he likes about that matchup, but he, he roasted him. And when that matchup happens, he gets the ball, and the Lakers load the floor from every angle. They try to confuse him. LeBron is like a cornerback on the sidelines. Like stunting here, stunting here. It's like ferocious. And Ant just sort of digests it all. And there were a couple times where he didn't wait at all. He just got the matchup, put his head down and went. And there was a level of decisiveness that I, I there. No dancing, no prelude, no, no anything, just go. Then there were other times where he like, dribbled into the lane, help converged, took a dribble back, kept a live dribble, help went away. And then he'll just spin into like a nice 12 foot shot over Luka. It was calm. It wasn't seeking highlight plays every time. It wasn't being reckless like Jalen Green's being reckless in the Warriors Rocket series. It was like a veteran calm, just masterful performance. And defensively, he's been good Chris Finch has gone all out putting Randall McDaniels and Ant on Reaves, LeBron and Luka and switching anytime they try to get in actions together. They've been on point with that. We haven't seen like Ant's been guilty a lot of times of like lazy box outs and falling asleep off the ball. Part of it is that the Lakers haven't forced a lot of that pressure on him, but he hasn't made any of those mistakes. Incredible Ant performance. The Lakers are just going to be complaining about the refs and you know, you can talk more about Ant, but I do want to hear your reactions to both the alleged trip by Jaden McDonald. It's not alleged. I mean his foot hit Luca's foot and Luka fell over and the overturned foul.
- [28:26]
Rob Mahoney
His foot is there and Luca's foot runs into Jaden McDaniels foot. Is that a trip? I guess yes. But also, I don't know, is Jaden McDaniels not entitled to shuffle with his own space?
- [28:39]
Zach Lowe
Well, and this is, this is the issue and I don't want to overplay this issue and transfer it onto every foul and non foul that happens. But I'm glad I talked about this with Goldsberry last Thursday when I talked about the physicality of the playoffs and how I just thought this is a completely different sport from the regular season to a level that I don't think I can remember. And I used dangerous. I said someone is going to get injured or there's going to be a fight. And this is the problem with this is that when plays like this happen and by the letter of the law it's probably a foul and you see calls like a little nitpicky call here or there and you see teams being like how are you going to call that when I just got tackled by four guys and you let it go. And it's a completely legitimate argument. Every time there's a touch foul late in the game, teams are like, I don't understand you. Just like hand checking is completely legal. Now we're getting mugged. And then you call this. It's a legit argument. And I do think the refs have lost control of a lot of these series and I don't. Everybody loves the physicality. I like the physicality. Nobody wants to see 40 free throws. There actually have been a lot of free throws. So it's not like they're calling nothing. They can only call so much. I get the flow of the game stuff, but this is like this is football out there.
- [29:53]
Rob Mahoney
Yes. Especially at the point, as you're saying, when the players themselves are confused about what kind of contact is allowable.
- [29:59]
Zach Lowe
That's.
- [29:59]
Rob Mahoney
Then there's a cost to the product.
- [30:01]
Zach Lowe
Right.
- [30:01]
Rob Mahoney
Anthony Edwards is there talking to the refs, wondering why is my arm around this player's waist a foul, but I can full body chop block LeBron James like for, for five consecutive seconds and no one's going to blow a whistle. Like I think all anyone wants, players, fans, coaches included, is just like a sense of internal logic within these games. Right. Like we've always heard, every game is officiated differently. I would say at this point it's just straight up, every possession is officiated differently, every player on the floor is officiated differently. There's no sense of consistency, of okay, on this night in Minneapolis, these are the terms of engagement. It's anything goes at any given time and then you're just randomly going to get whistled for a foul or we're going to send the Zapruder level analysis film review to see, as you alluded to up top, despite the fact that Anthony Edwards is falling over, he does get hit across the wrist and therefore this one graze across the wrist, which in the grand scheme of the contact in this game is not rising to the level of many of the other non calls, is going to be a monumental moment in this year's playoffs.
- [31:06]
Zach Lowe
And, and maybe in, you know, I mean, I don't want to say the history of the Lakers franchise because they're going to have some big, big decisions to make and they do have home court and it's always easier to come back. Three, one down, home court. Look, that was a foul. It was a foul.
- [31:20]
Rob Mahoney
Absolutely indisputably a foul.
- [31:22]
Zach Lowe
He's also already falling down. And if you told me, well, it's a no call, we just let it go, I would have been like, well, that's kind of consistent with how you've called most of these playoff series the trip by the letter of lie. I guess that's a trip he did. Jaden McDaniels does take like a weird half step forward, but I don't think Jaden McDaniels is sitting there thinking as Luka is bringing the ball up with 35 seconds left in a pivotal playoff game. How can I like accidentally trip Luca and get away with it and then you still have the inbounds pass that you throw away and end up almost throwing the game away. Yeah, I do want to talk about Luca because I jokingly brought up Nico Harrison and you left. Here's what I'm tired of. And it happened in the Phoenix series that they ended up winning the year they made the conference finals in the second round. It happened in the Celtics series, the finals that they ended up losing. And it's happening again now. And my only my gripe is, why do you have to get humiliated at the beginning of every single playoff series before you show the world? Like, yeah, I can actually put in a little bit more of an effort on defense. Because if you go back and you watch game one and two of that Phoenix series, he is so bad defensively that it's laughable. And then all of a sudden he becomes passable. Celtic series, same thing. This is why Brian Winhorse screamed on television, which Brian never does about like, hey, you have shown us you can actually do this when you care. And yet again, here we are, we're four games into this series and he's just helpless defensively. Off the ball too, like his little lunges, like gambling, gambling, just sort of like lurching around aimlessly out of the play. It's like, look, the trade is, is not. I've said before, like, I wouldn't have done a trade. Almost no one in the NBA would have done this specific trade. You can find corners of smart NBA people, team people who would, who would tell you the idea of getting out ahead of this and trading Luca is not a crazy idea. The idea of doing it without shopping him to get nine first round draft picks and swaps and doing this specific trade is where the logic falls apart. So look, I still think it's a crazy trade, but I'm just tired of like, I'm going to be embarrassed until our backs are against the wall and then I'm going to show you that, yeah, I can put up a little bit of a fight. How about you put up a fucking fight in like game one of the second round and now you're down three one and you're probably going home.
- [33:52]
Rob Mahoney
It's tough because Luka is a high order competitor. Like that dude is a motherfucker. And we've seen it in enough competitive circumstances to know. But if you are a motherfucker, can you not take this seriously on both sides? Can you not approach those sorts of possessions with the same kind of at least baseline fire? You don't have to go like full blazing inferno intensity, like game winner over Rudy Gobert intensity. But can you at least have something like a little bit of life in you as you go through those? And I think this kind of feeds into the Lakers defensive conversation a little bit too. You mentioned Ant just like being able to pick and choose which matchups he wants to attack. I just thought the Lakers switches were way too compliant. And you can see it on the other side. Luka wants in particular Nas Reed. Like he wants to go at Nas Reed. And that's been a pretty successful matchup for him in this series. It's part of the reason why the Wolves are doing this dance. Like, do we have Gobert on the floor here? Do we have Nas Reed on the floor here? Like, Gobert has actually held up better in those kind of one on one situations than Nas has. But you have Jaden McDaniels who's fighting like hell to get Nas out of as many of those situations as possible. And I think what the Lakers are missing right now is enough of those other guys who are doing the scram, switching, the stunting, like fighting, fighting through the screen to prevent the switch at the point of attack. And thus Luka is sitting there and sometimes, sometimes he has, you know, himself in the crosshairs and sometimes, as you said, he's just being really lazy on the help side. Both things are bad. Both things I would hope are correctable. And we've seen historically both things are correctable. It's just only by game three or four when Luka decides to get embarrassed to a sufficient point where Jason Kidd chews him out, or in this case, I guess JJ Redick will chew him out. We'll see what the Lakers version of Luka getting embarrassed looks like. But he's going to have a spotlight, spotlight on him with this team in a completely different way. And maybe that facilitates that embarrassment a little bit.
- [35:38]
Zach Lowe
Well, I mean, this is like when the trade happened, we're like, well, he gets to look at LeBron's like off court, you know, regimen up close and like correct all these problems. He is extension eligible at the end of the season. LeBron has a player option this summer and sneaky thing to look at. Austin Reaves is extension eligible. And I don't think there's any way that he takes the extension that the Lakers can offer, which is like four years, 90 million. He's going to go into unrestricted free agency after the 2526 season. They obviously still have all the stuff that they traded for Mark Williams before they trade. I think the Lakers backed out of the trade.
- [36:14]
Rob Mahoney
Certainly feels that way. Well, and they'll have one other swap, I believe, going into the swaps.
- [36:18]
Zach Lowe
They've got swaps and I do think one interesting stat from the series is that luka only has 20 assists in four games, which for him is not very many. He has low assists. Game one, I think in game one and two in game four, and then a bunch in the middle. And I think you feel the absence of a dive man for him to sort of break down the defense and get into his sweet spots. Jackson Hayes didn't play the entire second half. And by the way, you know what, what complicates everything. You're talking about scramming, fighting over screens when you have to play the entire second half of a high stakes playoff game against a big, nasty, fast, physical team. I don't know what the. I haven't, I'm not reading what the reaction to it is. I understand it was desperation time. And it's like there are a lot of coaches, if they did that, they would be getting flambade today. If Tibbs did that, he would be getting lambasted today. Now, I understand it's apples to oranges because Tibbs does this in the regular season and J.J. redick does not. I get it. But like, that is a really, a really. Like I'm watching it and I'm like, wait a. I actually looked back in the middle of the game, like, did I miss a sub or is he actually not subbed anybody? I'm like, oh my God.
- [37:31]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, I would hope Tibbs took it as a personal attack. Like, you can go further, you can go farther, you can do more.
- [37:37]
Zach Lowe
Can I play four guys the entire half and just play four on five?
- [37:41]
Rob Mahoney
I also think too, the other, the other problem with that. And yeah, you're right, there is a, there's a desperation element, right? Like there's a reason no other coach does this, at least until it's. There's no going back, right? Like, if you get deep enough in a series or deep enough in, of course, the NBA Finals, you do whatever you got to do. You play six guys if you have to, you play five guys if you have to. Nobody does it earlier than that, in part because it runs you down. And so when you see the Wolves have just owned the fourth quarter in this series overall, and especially owned the fourth quarter in this game, not an accident based on the amount of burn that these guys have. And also not an accident, considering the only way that the Lakers get by defensively with the personnel that they have is by flying around making high effort, high intensity plays all the time. And they really have, I would say, five guys who can do that. Plus Luka. One of them is Jared Vanderbilt, who in this game did not seem super playable offensively for all of his limitations. And so you can't execute the system you want to run. And really the only one that is solvent for this version of the Lakers roster with Jackson Hayes out there, honestly, even sometimes with Gabe Vincent out there, it just. You have this impossible conundrum because the roster is not built to be a roster. It is built to be an Anthony Davis team that then became a Luka Donjic team. That will have to be rectified in the offseason. But in the meantime, I would say my hope would be you can just steal a couple of minutes. Like, it doesn't have to be a lot. You can still run these guys. Incredible minutes in the second half. Just get LeBron one minute of rest going into a TV timeout.
- [39:10]
Zach Lowe
Like lots of other coaches do this, like they do with Curry. Like, you get to. You get a minute, you get the TV timeout, you get back in the game.
- [39:19]
Rob Mahoney
Also, Jordan Goodwin can play. I think Jordan Goodwin can play a little bit more than he's playing.
- [39:24]
Zach Lowe
Yeah. Dan Woicke wrote a great piece about the Banshee culture. That's a term they use to describe just the flying around defensive players that they've cultivated. And Goodwin is kind of the poster guy in the story. Well, it's nice that they were Banshee, bought into Banshee culture, and now they can't get on the floor. Season actually matters.
- [39:41]
Rob Mahoney
It's tough seasons.
- [39:42]
Zach Lowe
I will say Oklahoma City is watching all of this and being like, you guys go to town, like, beat the shit out of each other. We're over here. Yeah, Memphis figured us out, but the series is over, so we're just. We're just chilling like, we're fresh as a daisy. We're young, we're deep. And it's like, it's the Warriors Rockets game for us tonight, but right now we only have 1, 2. 2 series in the entire round. And we're about to talk about it. Like, I think the warriors are going to have some urgency to win this game and try to get out of this series because they're watching these teams just sl each other, and every series is so physical. But Thunder are like, yeah, we're done. We're cool. We'll take like eight days off until the next round if you'll get. And they might get, like, depending on this Denver Clipper series. I want to give Chris Finch's flowers. You mentioned the Reed Gobert conundrum. I feel like he's played that exactly right. Like he's had a great feel for. Okay, and I've said this before, like the Rudy issue is not on defense. It's on offense, particularly the way the Lakers are guarding them.
- [40:44]
Rob Mahoney
And his finishing in this series has been all time.
- [40:48]
Zach Lowe
How about they call a post up for him to open? Was it to open the game or half?
- [40:51]
Rob Mahoney
I think it was to open the game.
- [40:53]
Zach Lowe
Didn't go great. I feel like he's had a great feel for that. And the same with DiVincenzo and Conley. And the Wolves second most played lineup is that lineup with DiVincenzo for Conley and Reed for Gobert. Plus 27 in 22 minutes for the series. He even played all three bigs together yesterday and played now somewhat due to foul Trouble. Played Jada McDaniels at the 4 and Terrence Shannon at the 4. Played a little smaller. Like he's playing every card and he's doing it in the right doses. Any, any, any adjustment you're looking for from the Lakers as they try to save their season other than what we've kind of talked about defensively and, and all that.
- [41:34]
Rob Mahoney
I think that, I mean they clearly have to stave off some of the minutes concerns. They have to buy time somewhere. The turnovers, I think are an issue. There's also a weird thing with, where I don't know if I don't know how you adjust out of this because some of this is Luca's game and some of it is his particular carelessness within this series where he's getting picked at half court in a way that I've never seen Luka Doncic get picked at half court before. I wrote to the walls for that.
- [41:54]
Zach Lowe
I wrote Rudy a couple times.
- [41:56]
Rob Mahoney
Of all the people, he does not want to be embarrassed by Rudy Gobert ripping you at half court. It's not quite Buddy Heald and Steven Adams, but we're nearing into the territory of the dynamic. There's something with Luca where his mistakes and he had an incredible shot making game. Like he was kind of going toe to toe with Ant for a lot of this game in a way that I Hope we get 10 more years of that as far as Western Conference basketball goes. But his mistakes really feed Wolves runs. And some of it like he smoked a layup that all of a sudden became a 6, 0 wolves run. He missed a couple of gimmes. He gets picked at half court a couple times. Those are monumental plays within the flow of this game. And so it's like I don't, I don't know how you can't like take away all of Luka's mistakes, but there's something about the floor balance in those moments. And this has been a Luka problem throughout his career. A little bit where he gets deep into the paint and you know he's not going to be the first one back on defense busting ass. Although I think he did try a desperation revenge chase down block at one point in this game that did not quite work out. He did so he, he will do it on occasion, but ultimately him being behind the play after deep drives is tough, but that's what you have to do if you're not going to settle for jumpers every time against a switch. Heavy defense.
- [43:04]
Zach Lowe
A couple of things before we put this series to bed. Minnesota, 35% offensive rebounding rate. They're doing their job as the bigger team.
- [43:13]
Rob Mahoney
Also, I think can only be combated if you get guys more rest like you saw by the end of this game. Austin Reeves is running on fumes, trying to box out Riddy Gobert and getting elbowed in the face. Like you have to get these guys a little bit of time if you want them to be competitive on the boards.
- [43:27]
Zach Lowe
Well, the possession they had, they, when they went up, I think they were up two after LeBron had his second highlight defensive play of the last two minutes and they up to with like a minute ten left. Big possession. They just did nothing. They just ran all, they just all kind of stood there. Luca, I think ran some rote half speed, pick and roll. LeBron ended up taking like a logo three. That's an exhausted team kind of frittering away a massive possession on the Hope that a 30 foot three will just go in and win them the game. The other stat I want to mention, Minnesota plus eight in free throw attempts. I don't think a lot of people expected that game five could look a little different in Los Angeles, but if that, if those stats are like that, this series is bye bye.
- [44:11]
Rob Mahoney
You mentioned one more Chris Finch flower to the, to the bouquet that you already gave him. Him saving that challenge for that moment at the end of this game, literally saved it. And in stark contrast, I want to say JB Bickerstaff's a very good coach. I have a lot of respect for the work he's done with the Pistons this season. I'm going to hand J.B. bickerstaff and every coach in the NBA a very handy flowchart, which is, is the play you're about to challenge Will it result in actual points? If yes, you can challenge it. If no, is it late in the game enough that possession alone might swing the results of the game? If yes, challenge. If no, do not challenge it. Like, just do not do it. I don't care what. I don't care how confident Cade Cunningham is do. You cannot challenge that play.
- [44:57]
Zach Lowe
Do you do this in real life? Like, like, if my. If my wife is like, hey, you didn't wash that dish carefully enough. Should I just start? Let's go to the challenge. Let's get our daughter in here.
- [45:08]
Rob Mahoney
I think the Hawkeye View is going to vindicate you on that. It's going to show that you did, you did sponge it.
- [45:14]
Zach Lowe
Here, here's. Here's the real dirty truth. It's. I. Every time I have not washed a dish appropriately, I am a serial ignorer of the outside of dishes. Like, so if you're inside only, I just, I'm in a rush. I want to get things done. And it's. It's. I'm sloppy, but I will. Maybe a challenge challenge flag. I don't look, the two challenge, the uptick to two challenges has sort of changed the math. When there was one challenge, it was just. You just save it for the end of games. And, like, Miami never uses challenges ever, which is kind of weird. But now that there are two, you will get, like, you will get smart people who are in charge of figuring this out for teams who will say, on the first one, if you're 100% sure you're going to win it, you can use it on something that feels innocuous, like a change of possession or something. Because that could be a three, it could be whatever. Like, if you're one decision tree number one is like, are you going to win it for the first one? And if yes, for sure, use it.
- [46:11]
Rob Mahoney
Let me ask you this, Zach. Are you 100% certain of literally anything in your life?
- [46:17]
Zach Lowe
An out of bounds call where it, like, clearly hits somebody's hand and. And it's been called the wrong way. I mean, I would hope, but I. I just.
- [46:24]
Rob Mahoney
I just don't describe that level of certainty. And I'm certainly not going to bank a playoff game.
- [46:28]
Zach Lowe
Oh, you know what? I'm 100% certain on. I need. I need the. I need Mets fans feedback on this. I vowed when I got laid off and I embraced the Mets again after a long time off during their playoff run. I vowed to be a regular fan. Like, not a regular fan. I vowed to keep in touch. I can't do it during the like I I, I vowed to check a box score and I do it every day. Maybe they'll be on in the background somewhere on a TV I can glance at. Okay, so and so's up. I'm doing it. I'm living up to my vow now. I'm buying a jersey. And this is what I'm 100, I'm 100% sure of. I'm buying a jersey. And as a lapsed die hard Mets fan who I own two jerseys. Todd Hunley and Mike Piazza. That's how lapsed I am. I need the Mets community to tell me what is the most ethical and most metzy jersey to get. Anyway, you mentioned Lucas smoking the layup. A fun theme of these weekend's crazy games are the forgotten plays that end up being huge. So there's that. There's Schroeder not accelerating for a layup at the end of the third quarter and instead passing to Tim Hardaway Jr. I think for a dunk that didn't count in a game the Pistons lost by one. Was it one? Did they lose by one?
- [47:37]
Rob Mahoney
I think they lost by two.
- [47:38]
Zach Lowe
Two. Whatever they did, it was close. My brain is mushed.
- [47:40]
Rob Mahoney
And then, oh no, it was one. You're right. 94, 93.
- [47:43]
Zach Lowe
And then there is the end of the first quarter of Nuggets Clippers, which turns into the game of the year, maybe at least given the stakes, where with 1.9 seconds left, I think James Harden throws a football pass on a sideline out of bounds that goes the entire length of the court and goes out of bounds on the opposite baseline. Nobody touches it. And the Nuggets get the ball back in their offensive end and Jokic hits a three at the buzzer and you forget about stuff like that in the craziness of the game. And holy crap, was this game crazy.
- [48:14]
Rob Mahoney
Yes.
- [48:15]
Zach Lowe
It's just these things come back to bite you sometimes. Let's talk about that game because we have a bonus that series. Rather it's 2:2. It's the only 2:2 series and we have an extra day off. The series does not resume till tomorrow. I asked, I gave you one homework assignment which was rewatch the Aaron Gordon Miracle. And I've watched it 20 times and tell me something you didn't notice the first times that you watched it. Did you find anything?
- [48:39]
Rob Mahoney
I did find something. I don't think I had a appropriate appreciation of the Kawhi Leonard double me.
- [48:46]
Zach Lowe
That's number one on my list.
- [48:48]
Rob Mahoney
You know, I think it's like you see it, I know he gets there. And so every time I'm rewatching it, I'm watching everything else because I know Kawhi is going to get to Jokic, but not enough to deflect the ball or ultimately to block the shot. That said, you watch him, it is perfectly executed. Like, I mean, textbook. The second that Jokic starts to turn and has even anything resembling a blind eye to Kawhi, he's gone. And bogey, of course, this is, like, all scripted. Bogey is rotating up. Everything kind of tracks as far as what the Clippers are trying to do in that moment. The difference is, like, Kawhian pursuit is such a terrifying thing that even though I know he doesn't get there, my brain is making me think, but might he get there this time? Like, this time I watch it, Is he gonna actually, like, sneak up on Jokic and get this? Because he has. It's not just a look in his eye, but a change in his body language, Kawhi's body language, when he knows he can take a play over, and he kind of has that in that moment. And frankly, I wonder if the reason Jokic airs that sambor shuffle so badly is he might see Kawhi at the very end of it and rush it a little bit.
- [49:51]
Zach Lowe
I would.
- [49:52]
Rob Mahoney
I would.
- [49:52]
Zach Lowe
I would just run out of bounds if that guy were coming at me. I'm just like, what's going on? Let's go to overtime.
- [49:58]
Rob Mahoney
Get it out. Get out of the arena. Frankly, if you see him coming after you. But he's already got to get it over zoo, and now he's got to beat Kawhi on the timing, and so he can't cock it back as much to even release it. I. I kind of wonder if the reason it's. He misses it so badly is because of Kawhi, and it's only because he misses it exactly that badly that Aaron Gordon can catch it because it doesn't even clip rim.
- [50:17]
Zach Lowe
So I'm not going to lie. I watched the entire Warriors Rockets game after that game, and as I was watching that game every 10 minutes, I would be like, I'm going to have to rewatch this game, because all I can think about is Aaron Gordon's dunk. I don't really understand what happened still. I don't understand the science behind how that was, like, indisputably a good basketball. I believe that it was because they've gone, like, within milliseconds to show the light going off. I just can't believe that it happened. I don't even understand how it happened. And I noticed the Kawhi double team too, because I'm watching and you see Aaron Gordon come for the offensive rebound and you see the defense kind of shading toward Jokic and you. I asked myself, like, why are they overloading the floor at all? Why is all the attention just not on? Like, stay on our guy. There's nothing you, James Harden, can do by taking an extra half step toward Nikola Jokic on this shot. It's going to go in or it's not going to go in. And then you watch it again. It's like, actually they're tilting a lot. They're tilting a little bit because Kawhi is double teaming, but you should. And that leaves three on, two on the backside, and Harden doesn't know who to box out. And here comes Aaron Gordon and absolutely incredible. I'll tell you what I noticed. Jokic has zero reaction like, which we've seen before. He just puts his head down like he. It's almost. If you just zoomed on in his reaction, you would think they lost the game. He just puts his head down and just starts walking. You're like trots off. And Jeff, I. I have an eye on Jeff Van Gundy all the time because I miss Jeff. I love Jeff. I'm so happy that he's back in the muck of this and I'm sure he's enjoying himself.
- [52:01]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, straight up in the muck wrestling balls away from people on the beach, like really in it.
- [52:06]
Zach Lowe
And so I watched him and he just sort of. He's sitting down. He's not standing up. He's like the only guy not standing up. He's sitting down and then he just sort of keeps sitting down. Just an absolutely incredible moment from an incredible finish, which includes a absolutely ridiculous shot that Jokic hits to put them up to, followed by a Zubots put back to tie the game. This series is now 2:2. It was the series I was most excited about. I picked Nuggets in seven. I feel like it could have been a sweep by now. Like, the Clippers have been the better team. They're plus 33 for the series. Where are you as we go into Game 5 in Denver? I don't know if you made a pick. I don't remember just how. What's your feel of this?
- [52:49]
Rob Mahoney
I picked Nuggets in seven. I mean, we could be headed there, certainly. I think my only apprehension about it's getting to Nuggets in seven is it feels like a Series where the Clippers have options and the Nuggets do not have options. Their options, to the extent that they have them, Denver is okay. We can change how we execute against some of these kind of junked up defenses that have been giving us trouble. And you have the best player in the world to do that. In theory, in Nikola Jokic, that hasn't exactly helped so far. And I'm wondering if maybe over time they'll just have a level of familiarity with those sorts of zones that will help them penetrate them. But as far as rotation decisions go, no one is going to play any more or less pending whatever's going on with Russell Westbrook's foot. Like you're not going to be able to scale up the Jalen Pickett minutes in a meaningful way. That's going to change your rotation versus the Clippers. They actually do have some choices to make and I think in particular they're going to have a bit of a Chris Dunn choice to make as the series continues to develop. His offense is starting to become a real problem. They can flex him out if they have to, and I don't think they want to for obvious reasons. Christian is a hellacious defender. Even, you know, even if he is mismatched in size at some points in the series with the switches that they're executing, he's still really valuable to have on the floor for that purpose. But just the simple fact that Ty Lue can look down his bench and say, okay, we're going to try Derek Jones instead and just see if his three is going tonight. We're going to try Nick Batum instead, who is just such like a steady hand in these sorts of moments. We're going to go to Bogey in this moment. Bogdan Bogdanovich had easily the game of his playoff life coming off of Game four.
- [54:19]
Zach Lowe
I am having not watched Bogdan Bodanovic entire career, every single game, having not watched every international game, having not watched his games in Europe, I am quite confident that that was the best rebound of his entire basketball life. When he stole the ball from Jokic, jumped over him and laid in an up and under to give the Clippers a lead late in the game completely.
- [54:41]
Rob Mahoney
And so yeah, I think that's why at this point I feel the tilt toward the Clippers like, like in terms of what should happen. The Clippers should have more to play with that would let them get through the back part of the series. The Nuggets have Nikola Jokic on their team and I don't want to give short shirt To Aaron Gordon or Christian Brown, who I thought was really good. Michael Porter Jr. Is out there with one arm having a really good and really important game. All that stuff matters. It really, to me, feels like a team that has one defining option, which is Jokic increasing his aggression and finding a way in the way that we saw in Game four. Being a little less choosy on his shots, being willing to take more versus a team that has, like, some strategic levers to pull in a way that David Adelman is just like, does not have that luxury at this point.
- [55:24]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, this series is stretching Jokic to the absolute outer bounds of his versatility. I mean, there are possessions where he runs. He starts by running an inverted pick and roll as the ball handler and finishes by shooting a 3 in isolation. I mean, that's literally what happened on one possession. I think in late in the third quarter. They're running him off pin downs. They need to run some cross screens for him. Like, they're using the absolute limits of his versatility just to survive in this series. You mentioned mpj. He gets crapped on all the time because of his contract, because his handle hasn't developed, because his defense is a little bit spacey at times and was in this game particularly early off of Chris Dunn. His defense is a big pivot point in the series because he's guarding Chris Dunn. And as you suggested clearly in Game four, adjustment number one is whatever help you're giving off Chris Dunn in games one to three, dial it up by 50% in game four, ignore him completely. And you get. You gotta be on time. You gotta be on time. No matter where Chris Dunn is. If he's on the strong side, it doesn't matter. Rules don't apply. Your job is to help. And he screwed that up a few times. He played 42 minutes with a bad shoulder. 6 of 11, 4 of 7 on threes, 17 points. The Nuggets needed every one of those points. Crap on Michael Porter Jr. When he deserves it. Recognize that? That's a ballsy performance. Christian Brown, I thought, was the unsung hero of the game. 16, 8 of 8 of 19. Not great. One of seven. Not great. The one was huge. I thought his defense was some of the best he's played. And you can see the Nuggets trying to figure out when can we sit Jokic back a little bit on these pick and rolls? Because when he's up to touch, it's a problem for us. It's a good battle when the Clippers have to pass it around and Figure out how to find the open guy. But they're trying to like, can we sit him back a little bit? You can only do that if Christian Brown is like roaring down Harden's tail on those pick and rolls. But you mentioned done and that was the adjustment that enabled the comeback was the Clippers went to Bogdanovich over Dunn and did something that I was waiting for them. When will they feel pressed to do this, which is play go all in on a lineup with only one non shooter in Zoo instead of two with Zoo plus Dunn or Zoo plus Derrick Jones Jr or God forbid, Ben Simmons plus one of those other guys. And they went all in on it. And the Nuggets had zero answer defensively. Like Norm Powell went crazy. Every shot was wide open. All of a sudden the spacing just bent the Nuggets defense and just broke it. And I'm interested to see how quickly they go back to that. They should and will, I think, start Chris Dunn still. But you mentioned Batum, and Batum is the guy that I like in those lineups the best because of his combination of size, defense and shooting. I'm. I've got my eye on that lineup. With Batum in Dunn's place in the starting five. I thought that was an interesting. And they went zone.
- [58:21]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [58:21]
Zach Lowe
In a way that really seemed to confuse the Nuggets.
- [58:24]
Rob Mahoney
I don't, I don't get that. You know, like, I, I don't understand why when you have a giant playmaker who can see over the top of the defense, why it would be so stifling to run up against the zone, other than to say, like Boki was playing the top of that zone. And I thought that he and the Clippers were super aggressive in challenging and denying the ball in the first place to prevent Jokic from even getting set up at the elbow, more or less so he can sort of read the floor. And that pressure goes a long way. And I think by that point in the game, the Nuggets were so exhausted from 44 minutes of competitive basketball that, you know, they're, they're going, they're walking into some stuff, right? Like they're, they're a little too casual getting into some of the offense against the zone. They've had this big, I think it was a 22 point lead at one point that they're kind of just trying to coast out to a win rather than to punch through.
- [59:09]
Zach Lowe
Oh, they went pre. They went prevent offense big time to the point that Jokic tried to walk the dog a couple times. And the Clippers were like, you're not doing that. And one of those possessions, he had to throw that like a, like a sudden, like pick the ball up and lob it to Aaron Gordon. Aaron Gordon just like sprinted up the court with the ball and turned it over immediately. It's like, oh my God, they're kind of disintegrating here.
- [59:28]
Rob Mahoney
They really were. I mean, this was a like very, very, very narrowly avoided implosion. And we would obviously be talking about the results so differently if not for an Aaron Gordon fingertip overall in terms of the impact on the series and what it means about the Nuggets and all these things. But like, I don't want to gloss over the fact that Denver tried every way it could to give this game away and just barely could not do it, but really, really tried.
- [59:53]
Zach Lowe
I do. The zone, I thought confused them and at times confused me because I think if you rewatch the possessions, there are some in there that are actually man to man, except the matchups are just different. Like they just straight up put Kawhi on Jokic a couple of times and if you look at the way the matchups are flowing, it's kind of man to man. I think they just got them off balance. And one of the things his own does is it fucks up all the matchups. So if you get a stop, everything's scrambled going the other way. And Kawhi is killing the Nuggets on cross matches because he's guarding Michael Porter Jr. The Nuggets want no part of Michael Porter Jr. On him. Michael Porter Jr. Wants no part of. Just like, okay, I got to take Kawhi. I'll just do it. He's running away from that matchup and Kawhi is feasting in the void of that. But I, you know, I. Aaron Gordon, it's an awesome moment for him. Just a player that I think every basketball diehard can appreciate everything he does. Awesome moment for him. And I like the Nuggets. They've sprinkled in like some Murray Gordon two man game to try and get him going as a roller and use joke. It's a little bit of a spacer, secondary, playmaker. They've even done Murray Gordon Jokic staggered screens, which I like. And I still don't think they're running enough. Murray Jokic pick and roll. They only ran. They only ran 19 according to Second Spectrum in game. Game four for the series, they're running about 20 a game, 1.4 points per possession. No matter how you slice it, that's very Very good. I feel. I don't know. It's like we're going to talk about the Knicks in a second. I have no idea why there's not more Brunson Cat pick and roll. I mean, that's like coaching malpractice to me.
- [61:32]
Rob Mahoney
The eternal question. But we.
- [61:33]
Zach Lowe
With.
- [61:33]
Rob Mahoney
With the Jokic Murray stuff, I. I think a lot of it is that zone. Right. It's like pick and roll against zone is a little bit more of a complicated endeavor and certainly when you're denying the ball as aggressively as the Clippers are. But they. They need those Aaron Gordon possessions on the primary on like the periphery of this game. They need those Christian Brown possessions. I thought to the extent that Denver's other modifications, other than what they were doing defensively against Chris Dunn really paid off. One of them was Aaron Gordon busting ass down the court and ceiling with deep position against whoever he can get.
- [62:01]
Zach Lowe
His ass on cross matches.
- [62:03]
Rob Mahoney
Those cross matches were huge fouls. Got some free points both for him and for other people. Like, that is stuff that they can pull out and that they'll have to. But like most of the Nuggets adjustments ultimately I think are read this better or run this harder and they just don't have a lot of flexibility beyond those things.
- [62:20]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, I don't. Again, I picked Nuggets in seven. In theory, this looks like Nuggets in seven. It's two. Two. Both teams of one. On the road. The Nuggets have home court advantage. Don't feel good if I'm a Nuggets fan. But. But like I also, the series has been strange enough where it. Every time you feel like, okay, the Clippers have it figured out, they're clearly the better team. They blow out Denver in game three. It sort of comes back to this muddy middle and so I guess we're just going to kind of live there. Any parting thoughts before we go to Pistons, Knicks?
- [62:52]
Rob Mahoney
No, let's. Let's keep it moving.
- [62:55]
Zach Lowe
Pistons, Knicks, three one. Nick's. Was it a foul? Yeah, it was a foul.
- [63:03]
Rob Mahoney
Probably should add your challenge. Probably should have consulted the flowchart.
- [63:07]
Zach Lowe
Well, you can't challenge that, can you?
- [63:09]
Rob Mahoney
Why not?
- [63:10]
Zach Lowe
Could you challenge a non. A non call.
- [63:13]
Rob Mahoney
I believe we saw another challenge.
- [63:15]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, you're right.
- [63:15]
Rob Mahoney
This weekend.
- [63:16]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, you're right. It was a foul. I. I will.
- [63:21]
Rob Mahoney
Josh Hart seemed to tip that it was a foul.
- [63:23]
Zach Lowe
Josh Hart said it was a foul. It's the arms that get me in the end. The arms come down a little bit and I will credit. I will credit Tim Hardaway Jr. For this. He doesn't jump sideways super aggressively to sell it. And I think in the end pays the price for playing borderline ethical basketball and not doing what a lot of players would do, which is completely take a sideways jump shot. It was a foul and the Knicks win anyway. I don't know what else to say about it. It sucks to have a game decided on a play like that. Ultimately there's a lot of things that go into deciding the game. The knicks are only plus eight for the series. They're scoring 110 points per 100 possessions. They're going to win the series. They should win the series. Obviously Brunson has the injury scare and then comes back and scores 15 points in the fourth quarter on 7 of 11 shooting. Incredible, incredible performance, incredible shot making. And Cat with just two all time bailout jumpers. One falling out of bounds on a totally dead possession where the gen Knicks don't run their best stuff. And the other, if you freeze the moment where Cat makes that step back three that ultimately wins the game, you will struggle to find worst spa. Worst spacing from a competent NBA offense. Literally all five Knicks players are within the same 20 foot quadrant of the floor on the right side and Kat steps back and hits the three incredible shot. Where do you want to go? I mean I'm already looking ahead to the next series which will be Knicks, Celtics probably. I feel a little worse about the Knicks coming out of this series than I did coming into it. I picked the Knicks in five. This is on course for Nixon five, but it's not the Knicks in five that I envisioned.
- [65:13]
Rob Mahoney
Let me make a slight counterpoint to that. I think coming out of this game, which as you said was flawed. Certainly there are a lot of Knicks runs that are like how are you guys letting this fritter away after you've had the dominant stretches in particular defensively that you had in the first half. All that I take in stride, I take into account. I came out of this game feeling like this. This Knicks performance was closer to anything we saw during last year's run than anything I've seen from this Knicks team before. Like there's been something kind of missing with them. And again, this was far from a perfect game. But I thought they tapped back into some of the greater than the sum of their parts magic that made last year's team really special. And some of it was the emotion and the energy in the building for this game was just off the charts from the start for both teams. For Little Caesar's arena. It seemed like an amazing vibe. I would have loved to see this game in person, but I thought they were flying around and some of this might be the Josh Hart element of this in particular, where he had such a good, energetic game. And that is kind of one of the defining characters of last year's run in particular. And so if you take. Okay, this energy is working. Yeah, OG and McKayle bridges can't hit anything, especially around the rim. Like their inability to finish has started to become a huge problem, but defensively I thought they were giving exactly what I want them to give. Jalen Brunson and Kat have this incredible closing push, just the kind of kick that even someone like Cade Cunningham and even a team like the Pistons are not capable of. Are we getting somewhere with the collective value of all of these things? That that would be my only hope coming out of this game, despite how messy it was.
- [66:51]
Zach Lowe
Well, Hart has been awesome the last two games and there was a segment of Knicks fans clamoring for less Josh Hart and more Deuce McBride. By the way, Deuce McBride can't make a shot. And I said on Thursday, like, that's just not going to happen. Josh Hart is too important to the fabric of the team. Tibbs is the last coach who's going to do something like that. And Josh Hart, 14 points, 10 rebounds, 5 assists, 4 steals in game four made his threes, which are going to be pivot points in the series. And in Game three, I thought Josh Hart pushing the pace unlocked Cat because the Pistons could not get out of the Duran Cat matchup, which they're trying to avoid. And Duran was stuck on Cat. Cat walked into some trail threes. Not only that, using Josh Hart as a facilitator from above the elbow and getting your cutting game going, I think opened up their offense a little bit. So I, you know, I get what you're saying. I just sometimes I wonder, like, you know, Bill has spent the whole year raving justifiably about the Brunson Cat pick and roll and how unstoppable it is with shooting around it and Bridges hard, I mean, hard shooting, take or leave. And an OBI who's been outstanding the whole year, they've run 47 pick and rolls in four games. That's just not nearly enough. And in both Game three and Game four yesterday, because of Tobias Harris foul trouble, they were gifted extended periods of time where the Pistons decided we have no choice but to guard Cat with Jalen Duran or Paul Reed, we're putting our centers on him because we just can't. We don't have anything else to do and you're just like you have been gift wrapped. Gift wrapped. A chance to run a Brunson cat pick and pop and just see how they respond and they either don't do it it or they run it so half heartedly that it doesn't go anywhere and there's fatigue in that too. And even when they have to I keep harping on this. Even when they have Tobias Harris on cat, you're not outlawed by the NBA from running that same two man game because guess what? If Tobias Harris switches Jalen Brunson is going to get a good shot and what he's usually doing is just hugging cat and saying we're not leaving cat and Jalen Brunson's getting good driving lanes and if it also if he switches you might get a cat like you're allowed to do this. And this is I think I'm assuming I haven't listened to Bill and Ryan yet why Bill tweeted this is a brutal Tibs game because you are gifted. This chance of we don't have to problem solve around Jalen Duran on Josh Hart. We are given the matchup that we got Kat for center on Kat and we don't leverage it. It's driving me insane. Is it driving you insane?
- [69:20]
Rob Mahoney
Completely. Like again because the solution is so simple and because their games do interlock, this isn't a Damian Lillard Giannis situation where they don't the chemistry. They've got it. They've got the juice. Brunson and Kat together their games interlock in a really successful and really easily accessible way. All you have to do is run it. And the Toby part of this I want to zero in on specifically because yeah, Duran an understandable target. I get why the Pistons decided to.
- [69:46]
Zach Lowe
Keep him -42 in the series. It doesn't feel that bad to me. Although there was one catch and shoot 3 Cat had in like 3 minutes ago where he was kind of spaced out in no man's land. I was surprised it's that dramatic. Minus 42 some of it.
- [70:01]
Rob Mahoney
I mean he's been able to claw back some points on the glass in particular in a way that helps but defensively this is just not a good matchup for him. Is a really tough spot to put a player of his inexperience and his youth to be honest, like still such a young player to throw him into.
- [70:15]
Zach Lowe
The 22 years old.
- [70:16]
Rob Mahoney
Like this is a lot for him and he's out There like impacting the game, how he can sometimes more effectively than others, largely not a factor in his life.
- [70:24]
Zach Lowe
21 years old, 21 and a half years old.
- [70:27]
Rob Mahoney
Incredible. And like I have a lot of hope for Jaylen Duran. I do not have a lot of hope for his ability to defend in this series. Cause it just has not really been there. But even putting him aside, I'm really glad you brought up like the Tobias Harris element, which Katt versus Tobias Harris is the matchup I did not know I needed but I've been very much enjoying like they're jawing and going back and forth. It's become a battle of real consequence within the complexion of this series.
- [70:50]
Zach Lowe
Where has this Tobias been all of our lives? Philadelphia fans would have loved this Tobias Harris. He's talking crap, he's pushing, he's shoving, he makes mean faces. It turns out this is all Philadelphia fans wanted minus the gigantic salary they would have liked this to buy. I like this. Where is this guy been? Is there something about Detroit? I love it.
- [71:11]
Rob Mahoney
I think it is something about Detroit. I think it is something about his role as an elder statesman for the team and you know, setting an example that way versus being oh Tobias, go stand in the corner because we don't really value what you do. Which fair enough. Like I think he means something to a competitive playoff team that he cannot to a high order contending team. And that's fine. The way it manifests is him being like a really like I think overall one of the most important pistons on the floor full stop. And him getting in foul trouble was a huge swing point in this game as well. But you can run pick and roll at Tobias Harris like he is still just mere mortal Tobias Harris. And you are Jalen Brunson.
- [71:48]
Zach Lowe
He's not Kevin. He's not Kevin Garnett from 2007.
- [71:51]
Rob Mahoney
I like I, I, I am also mystified by the lack of 15 pick and roll. I just think it's right there for the taking anytime they want to do it. What Tibbs has told us historically is he will not take the fruit that you want him to take despite how low it hangs. Like he is going to do his thing and that thing is going to work or it's not. But there's not going to be a lot of futs or adjustment about it.
- [72:10]
Zach Lowe
I used to call Mike Budenholzer coach low hanging fruit and people took it as an insult and I was like no, it's a compliment. He's taking all the easy like we're not going to foul. We're going to get every defensive rebound. Like, we're going to take this stuff that's easy for us to take care of. It was a completely. It was like meant as a compliment. Pick the fruit. The fruit's there. It's delicious. It's ripe. Pick it right off the tree.
- [72:31]
Rob Mahoney
Can I wonder one thing about. Just to play devil's advocate on the pick and roll front. I wonder if part of it. It's one thing if you're gonna have Cat pop exclusively and be. I mean, he's one of the best shooters, one of the best big ban shooters ever.
- [72:43]
Zach Lowe
Can we do that? That sounds great.
- [72:44]
Rob Mahoney
Sounds great. As far as Cat as roll man or Cat as driver, this was already a game where Kat's battling foul trouble. And I want to give him immense credit for tackling his own personal white whale, which is. Picked up that fourth foul super early. Played basically a full rotation shift after that foul without picking up the fifth. I mean, straight up. That is the reason the Knicks win this game is like his ability to stay on the floor is probably the reason why the Knicks win. I wonder if part of the reason they don't want Kat rumbling through a roll or even picking up a moving screen, which he will and can do on many occasions. Like, are they. Are they just trying to keep the fouls off of Cat as much as possible? And maybe that's giving Tibs in the Knicks too much credit.
- [73:27]
Zach Lowe
I don't know if that's the conversation I want to have about a guy who's getting paid 53 million next season. 57 million the year after. 61 million the after. Like, yeah, we can't really. We gotta dial back to pick and rolls with the best shooting, self proclaimed best shooting big man in the history of the NBA because of his foul. It's not. It's not.
- [73:44]
Rob Mahoney
It's not good.
- [73:45]
Zach Lowe
He played very well and he's played tough. And this has been a physical, nasty series. Like all of these series have been. And you know the Knicks are going to pull out of it and. Yeah, but the Tobias thing has been really fun. I like this Tobias. And they're lost without him. They don't know what to do without him. Should we play SR. Thompson? Should we play Ron Holland? Should we just play Kate at the 4? What happens when we play Kate at the 4? They just don't know what to do is. I'm a little surprised. Deep cut. Is Simone Fontechio, like, dead? Like, what happened to him? I thought he was going to play A little bit in this series.
- [74:21]
Rob Mahoney
He should play in this series. I really don't see why not. I mean like at the point where Cade Cunningham has to shove Ron Holland to prevent him from fighting with literally anyone else. Vicinity. Are we really so opposed to playing Simone Fontecchio in this moment? And I would say in particular because guys like Mikhail and OG are already not a factor on anything inside the three point arc right now. Like they really struggled with overall the length of what Detroit is putting out there. And Simone Fontechio, for all his limitations, like that dude has that kind of length.
- [74:53]
Zach Lowe
Plus when he makes threes, everybody on the bench does this.
- [74:56]
Rob Mahoney
I know you're just again, low hanging fruit. That's right there for both teams to take. On one hand, one five pick and roll on the other hand. Great Italian celebrations.
- [75:04]
Zach Lowe
The, the Pistons have only scored 109 points per 100 possessions in this series. Offensively, that was we. When I picked the Knicks in five, I said, I just don't think you're gonna be able to score enough to keep up with the Knicks. Now it turns out keeping up with the Knicks has not been that difficult and they still haven't been able to do it. What have you thought of Cats defense in this series?
- [75:24]
Rob Mahoney
Okay, not good enough. Like, I mean, I think, I think it presents the same problems going forward that we all would have expected. And this is, you know, when you get into the issue of like, okay, well they're going to run into the Celtics, like, what, what is it that is going to happen here? Like, what is it that they would be able to do? Kat and Brunson being such pressure points defensively is such a problem and it's such like a glaring neon sign that I worry about. I think he's been okay, but. And also it's hard to defend when you're in foul trouble. And that's when you give up dunks. That's when you give up some like high impact plays because you can't afford to impact them. So as much as anything, I think it relies on him not picking up those cheap fouls, as does every element of his game.
- [76:03]
Zach Lowe
I think okay is I, I think I'm like 80% of okay. I think I'm like a little less than okay. There have been segments of the series when they've asked him to come up to the level of the screen against Cade and he's just been too late. And so he's gotta like panic and rush out and Duran has had streaks of dunk, dunk, dunk, and then they've sat him back a little bit and said can you try dropping? And that, that hasn't worked. But he's been other points, he's been okay spinning it forward to the likely Boston Knicks matchup in the second round. Obviously Boston dominated that matchup in the regular season, but you hit it exactly on the head. I'm watching Orlando Boston and Orlando has successfully dragged the Celtics into the mud, which I did not really think they're going to be able to do this level. Celtics three point game fell off volume wise in Orlando in games three and four. They're only 38% of their attempts have come from three in this series. It was 50% in the regular season. And that's obviously Orlando's plan. Orlando's base defense in the series is we are switching everything. Wendell Carter Jr. Is our five switchier than Cat, but it's not like he's again prime Kevin Garnett. Corey Joseph's are one little stouter than Jalen Brunson. Maybe like defense, not, not maybe defensively but like you know, it's not like he's a 65 point guard. It's Corey Joseph.
- [77:18]
Rob Mahoney
He does have a veteran dark arts though. Like Corey Joseph knows his way around, you know, like he knows what he's doing down there.
- [77:24]
Zach Lowe
But we're switching everything and that means Jason Tatum and Jaylen Brown. You can have Wendell Carter Jr. And attack his feet or you can play bully ball against Corey Joseph and guess what, you can get all the way to the basket and we're not sending help from anywhere. We're going to make you make decisions at the rim, particularly if cornet is on the floor. So there's a little bit of traffic there and if not, we're going to count on Wendell Carter Jr. Or we're going to count on Wendell Carter Jr. Being big enough to like you're going to miss some of those shots and we're going to count on Corey Joseph to stand you up and make you take 12 foot jump shots. And we are not. There's a moment in the late in the third quarter last night in game four where Jayson Tatum is driving on Corey Joseph and Caleb Houston out of pure reflex, rotates off Peyton Pritchard in the corner, gets into the paint and then realize you can see it in his head like oh wait, I'm not supposed to do this and sprints back at Peyton Pritchard like and I'm watching this and I'm wondering is this a blueprint that the Knicks and other teams can go to against the Celtics just as a way of like, yeah, Cat's not Wendell Carter Jr. Brunson's not Corey Joseph. But it's not like those guys are all world defenders. And can we just slow the game down, make the Celtics devolve into one on one play and just decrease their three point volume. Is that a roadmap for the Knicks or not?
- [78:43]
Rob Mahoney
It's a roadmap for a team that is not coached by Tom Thibodeau. Like I think, I think that's straight up. Like, that's not to say he's a bad coach, but he's a coach who wants to defend, wants his team to defend in a very specific way. And that way is not necessarily switch and contain all the time, 100% as a fact of life. I also think there's the issue where Orlando has, has laid out this blueprint, but how many teams really have the size to execute it? Because it's not just can you stand up one through five defensively, it's this is one of the biggest, most physical lineups in the league. And you've seen the psychological effect.
- [79:17]
Zach Lowe
Al Horford is mad about it.
- [79:18]
Rob Mahoney
This is what I'm talking about, gentleman.
- [79:20]
Zach Lowe
Al Horford is like wagging his, literally wagging his finger. Like, do not do that. That's not nice.
- [79:27]
Rob Mahoney
Al Horford is pissed. Jaylen Brown, I think is clearly like a little rattled and also got a little unbalanced in his game at times in a way that really benefited Orlando. Chris Apps Porzingis was clearly bothered by like all of these guys. And that's to say nothing about, you know, Jason Tatum's wrist injury or like all the banging that happens in a series like this. What teams can execute that? Like, I think there are elements of the Knicks roster that can do that. Cat can do it, but can he do it without fouling? Jalen Brunson is a physical guard, at least in terms of the way he creates space on offense, but not necessarily in that way defensively.
- [79:59]
Zach Lowe
And I know you as you're saying this, it also strikes me like Cat is not as nimble on his feet as Wendell Carter Jr. And Wendell Carter Jr. Is not super nimble, but he's pretty nimble. And this, this scheme falls away if, if, if the contested layups are just dunks.
- [80:13]
Rob Mahoney
Yes.
- [80:13]
Zach Lowe
And, and Jalen Brunson is not Corey Joseph in the sense that the Knicks need Jalen Brunson's offense on every single possession. The Magic don't really need Corey Joseph to do anything except hit A couple open threes. So go ahead, exhaust yourself on defense. Jalen Brunson doesn't have that luxury, but it has been interesting. Other teams, I'm sure, are watching this happen to Boston, and I thought Boston in Game four and I think was standing Gundy on the call. I think he was. Was noting this. They were busting out some more set plays. I think to get people moving. They were rolling to the rim more with Porzingis and Cornette. I think to try to get the Magic to almost not think, like, defend this like you normally would. There's a big guy rolling to the rim. What would you normally do? I normally rotate inside. Whereas when the game pauses and it becomes static, they can think and remember like, oh, yeah, we're staying home. And I thought that was smart. But good, good. I mean, look, Orlando made them earn that road win. I mean, this was a nice homestand for the Magic and encouraging in the sense of Wagner is fighting through whatever is going on with his jump shot. The team doesn't have enough ammo offensively. We all knew that. But the defense has held up and they were in these games against. They won one and they were in the other. I mean, this is like a little more juice, a little more talent. They're not that far from being a problematic playoff team.
- [81:36]
Rob Mahoney
As soon as you give Paolo and Franz any kind of space whatsoever, those dudes are going to cook. And frankly, they already are cooking in close quarters. It's just they have to dig a lot more out of the mud. But I want to really salute Wendell Carter, though, because I thought he had a really nice vindication series after he had a really tough time against the Cavs in last year's playoffs. Him hitting some threes, which is an important part of his skill set, but also standing up defensively in that way. Like, there have been points over the last two years where it wasn't clear if Gogo Batadze was just going to take his job, if Mo Wagner was just going to take his job and Wendell harder.
- [82:08]
Zach Lowe
It's a lot of great backup center hair sitting on the Magic bench right now, just going on flowing locks, just.
- [82:15]
Rob Mahoney
Perms for days potentially going on in Orlando. But I thought Wendell played a really nice series and you see that throughout their lineup. It's just a team that right now is not positioned for offensive success. And we all know what the needs are. They're kind of of right there, front and center, and we'll see if the Magic go out and get them.
- [82:31]
Zach Lowe
It's funny, Banchero is so interesting in this regard. He's kind of a Rorschach test for NBA fans because he's averaging 32 points per game, 44% shooting, 43% on threes, which means 44% on twos, and like, not great on twos. And so you can see people nitpick his game a little bit, particularly people who lean towards more of an analytics heavy bent. I watch these games and I'm like, this dude is a freaking monster.
- [82:55]
Rob Mahoney
He's got it.
- [82:55]
Zach Lowe
And like you said, when they're there's anybody who can help him. Because you just don't see a lot of guys who within 45 seconds look awesome as a pick and roll ball handler and then look awesome as a screener roller finisher, and then look awesome as a post up isolation guy and then look awesome in transition. And like he defends pretty well. I, I just. And he, and he wants every bit of this. Like he doesn't care that they're overmatched. He feels like he's the best player on the floor. He's everything you want in a young rising franchise star. And yeah, his efficiency is imperfect. Some of that is on him. Some of that is on, like the surrounding talent just isn't good enough. Like, we're counting on Anthony Black a lot and Gary Harris is like closing games for us. It's just not there. I love what I've seen from Paolo in this series.
- [83:41]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, and Franz too. I think Franz's ability to drive and create and convert those like weird kind of hook shot kind of runners, like, like they, they carve out a lot of points from possessions that feel like they're going nowhere. And it happens because Paolo and Franz are the size that they are, and for that size are some of the most skilled players in the world as far as like guys who are six, ten with a handle. That's a very short list to begin with. And you're adding in. Legitimate ability to finish through contact, legitimate ability to pull up and, and convert jumpers in Paolo's case, although maybe he errs a little bit, sometimes too much in terms of the pulling up versus going all the way through. That's what happens when you don't have spacing. Like, guys are going to settle for some things that are tough shots, but give them any Runway. And I feel really confident in what the, like the ultimate core of this magic team can be.
- [84:25]
Zach Lowe
I'll go one further. Franz Wagner maybe kind of has the yips right now on his jump shot and is like the Greatest performer with the yips in the history of sports. The dude is, his jump shot is all messed up and he puts up 24, seven and six and still takes seven threes. Like there's something to be admired about a guy who's going through it in one phase of his game, is in his head, is a little bit and is still battling out there for 40 minutes and putting up semi efficient numbers for a team that needs anything they can get offensively.
- [84:55]
Rob Mahoney
And that's as he guards oftentimes Tatum or Brown. Like I, I think ultimately like the two way ability of Franz combined with as you said, Paolo is not a defensive like an all defense level contributor but he is big and he is mobile and he can muck things up. And he, he is as much a part of how like if you are going to play this one on one contained style of defense against Boston, where are you shrinking the floor and where are you coming up for rebounds in that kind of alignment? And he's a part of both of those things.
- [85:23]
Zach Lowe
Real quickly I want to praise the Orlando Magic for something that happened in game three, which nobody ever does. They get the ball back with the lead. 95, 93, I believe there are 28.1 seconds on the clock. The differential between the shot clock and the game clock was about 4 seconds. It was either 3.8 or 4.1. Then there's like a bizarre 8 second call which they end up overturning and the possession continues as if nothing ever happened. Inadvertent whistle. Whoops. Whoops. By the way, what's with the whistling in the crowd in Minnesota? Does someone have a whistle like it's fooling everybody? And so the Magic did what nobody does. The Celtics did not foul down two with a three to four second differential on the shot clock. I have always been of the school of thought you have to foul because you're just not going to leave yourself with enough time. Coaches are divided on this and one of the reasons that coaches are divided and will play for the stop as Joe Missoula did is that no team ever does what Orlando did, which is run the shot clock to 0.5 before you shoot. So the ball is in the air as the shot clock is expiring. One long rebound, one tip of the ball and the game is over. Lo and behold, the rebound bounces really far out. The Celtics grab it, they call time out. There probably should have been like 0.6 or 0.8 left on the clock. They gave him 0.3. All they have is a lob Jamal Mosley. I don't know if that was scripted. I assume that it was. I assume that was the advice. Every that should be your default plan is we are shooting if you don't put pressure on us, if you don't trap us, if you don't do stuff to speed us up up, we're shooting with zero on the shot clock. Unbelievable job by the Magic, especially if.
- [87:04]
Rob Mahoney
You'Re the bigger team. Especially if you're the one bullying these guys around. Like, give yourself a chance to get a fingertip on that ball and poke it away when they need everything to go right in order to just get a shot off.
- [87:13]
Zach Lowe
And Joe Mazzulla was like, well, bad luck. It was a long rebound. Like, that's not bad luck. Like a lot of rebounds of threes are long rebounds. That's like baked into the whole equation. I I would have fouled there if I were him. I get why you play for the Stop it. Because teams assume the Magic will just go early and shoot with eight on the shot clock. And they didn't. Quick thoughts on Warriors Rockets the last Game four resumes tonight. Warriors win a Steph Curry masterpiece in game three to go up two to one. This is almost a must win for the Rockets despite the fact that they have home court advantage. It's very hard to see them beating the warriors three times in a row, particularly if and when Jimmy Butler comes back. Warriors use a makeshift lineup with post and Kaminga end up finishing the game with a small ball lineup up. I mean the Rockets offense is what it is. Any what are you looking for very quickly in game in game four tonight?
- [88:02]
Rob Mahoney
Well, just to hit it because we kind of zoom past up top. You mentioned the Cavs were your team of the weekend. To me it's the warriors and I think Steph could have been the MVP of the weekend easily. But I like I he Steph would be as deserving as anybody. He was sensational. I wanted to pick Golden State instead as my team of the weekend because of what we saw from the fourth quarter in particular without Jimmy Butler. Playing off of Steph was just classic Warrior stuff. And everything starts with Curry, as it always does and has for, you know, the better part of a decade, basically. But their closing kick was all about the synergy that makes that team go. And the highest scoring player in that fourth quarter was Gary Payton ii. Like that. That's warriors basketball in a nutshell. That does not happen by accident. It happens because you have Draymond connecting dots. It happens because Brandon Pajemski who I will say has had quite a journey to get to this level of trust and respect from Steve Kerr. Buddy healed. Punishing teams from the weak side like this is strength in numbers. Kumbaya basketball when the warriors really, really need it. And for some reason, Houston always seems to bring this out of them. But I just, even after all these years, it's such a sight to behold. And I love the fact that even though the roster turns over and refreshes, they just are finding guys who can play that way. Jonathan Kuminga, not one of those guys. And I don't. I don't know whether I expect him to start again, given the way he just kind of got ejected from this game over the course of it. But I know you are somewhat of a believer in the Jonathan Kuminga series.
- [89:27]
Zach Lowe
It's a tough subject for me.
- [89:28]
Rob Mahoney
I'm sorry, I don't mean. I don't mean to bring up sensitive points.
- [89:31]
Zach Lowe
Can't win them all. Can't win them all. I'm also like a Jalen Green optimist. That's not going great.
- [89:36]
Rob Mahoney
Well, he's had his moments. I mean, the Jalen Green roller coaster is what it is. The Kaminga part of this, I think he's just kind of getting replaced in the rotation. But you mentioned earlier, Golden State needs to get out of this series quickly. And I think I agree with that. Just the physicality of the Rockets, the athleticism of the Rockets and beyond that, you look at what almost happened to Jalen Brunson, what did happen to Damian Lillard, but almost happened to Anthony Edwards, and you're like, one guy lands on Steph's leg wrong and we're. It doesn't matter if Jimmy Butler comes back at that point. And so you gotta, you gotta take care of business. And I think the great luxury of winning this last game was now all of a sudden they are in such great position to do it. Whether Jimmy plays or not.
- [90:13]
Zach Lowe
I feel. I mean, I didn't have a ballot this year, but I said I would have put Steph first team all NBA over Donovan Mitchell in the fifth spot. I feel even better. I mean, no slight down. Mitchell is unbelievable. I have no problem if he makes first team. He's been first team on my ballot once before. Steph is just unbelievable. And the three. He hit a three in Jalen Green's face when the score was 92, 86 warriors, where the warriors ran a bunch of stuff. Rockets defense has been good this series. Even Jalen Green has been defending pretty decently. This series like they're playing hard. Nothing happened. Steph Curry catches the ball at the top of the arc with Jalen Green right in his face. No dribble, no anything like no jab step. Just rises up and hits a three and it's like that's just so mean. It's so dispiriting. And like you said, the Rockets have seen this movie too many times. None of these Rockets, but the Rockets.
- [91:03]
Rob Mahoney
The building has seen it. Like they don't deserve that.
- [91:06]
Zach Lowe
I just, you know, we all knew the Rockets offense was going to be tested in this series. It was their weak link. It just for them to put up. Their offensive rating is 103.6 points per 100 possessions. That's very bad. That would have been last in the NBA by a lot. For them to have an offensive rebounding rate approaching 40% and be that inefficient is kind of astonishing. You know, Amen. Thompson looks like a young, a young guy who's a little bit lost in this series because of his lack of a jump shot. And they can put anybody they want on him and they haven't figured figured that out yet. Not surprising. The Adam Shangun thing has been good, but they're clearly skittish playing it when Steph is on the floor.
- [91:46]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [91:46]
Zach Lowe
And you know, they played it a.
- [91:48]
Rob Mahoney
Little less in game three as well. Yeah, it certainly felt that way.
- [91:52]
Zach Lowe
They dialed it back and defensively they've been good. That, that's great. They're still in the series. Offensively, what they have is just not good enough. And Sam Amick wrote the piece for the Athletic. We've all been talking about it all year. If that proves to be the case and the offense isn't good enough and they lose in the first round, there are two ways you can approach that decision. Your approach could be we won 50 whatever games in this number two seed. We're ready. We just need a big boost on this end of the floor. We've mentioned some guys already or could be like, hey, actually yeah, we won 50 whatever games. We weren't the 2 seed by that much and we kind of got exposed in the playoffs. Maybe we're a little further away than we thought. Let's take our time. I suspect it will go the former way and be aggressive if this series goes this way. But look, it's not like the warriors are so consistent and so level headed that we can just assume they win tonight. This could be 2, 2 going back to Houston.
- [92:45]
Rob Mahoney
I mean this game in itself was reliant on getting great Quinton post defensive minutes on some of these lineups getting papered together for Golden State in a way that historically over the course of the season they just have not like buddy heel stints have not always gone this well. But sometimes they do. And when they do, I think ultimately they have enough to draft off of Steph's influence and the chaos he creates to get some stuff going. I honestly, if it does go this way for Houston, I would encourage them to go that aggressive route. And I say that as, like, I am generally a wait and see with young talent kind of guy. Like, I want to see young teams come to fruition. I want to see them grow with and around each other and see how their skill sets can kind of manifest. I just don't see within this Houston roster a source of like really organic shot creation growth. Like, some guys will get better at creating plays for others. Amin Thompson is never going to be like a go to one shot killer, I don't think. I mean, but who knows? That guy's capable of incredible things. I want to put that as an extreme improbability. And I say that as someone who loves every other part of his game. And Jalen Green is so up and down that I don't, I don't think he's ever going to like regularize in a way that's going to be that for you. And so then you're left with Alperin Shangoon doing what he can against the matchups that are advantageous for him. A lot of Fred Van Vliet desperation shots, to say nothing of the fact that he's already at an age where you're not expecting him to make any dramatic changes to his game. And so where's it gonna come from? Are you gonna throw Cam Whitmore into the rotation? Expect him to save your franchise? You are going to have to make a move for the sort of shot creator that all of these other teams have. It doesn't have to be Steph Curry. Like Detroit has Kate Cunningham and that's getting them through these games in a really competitive way. Like, there's lots of ways to do it.
- [94:25]
Zach Lowe
I'm glad you brought up Kade. I love Cade. I had kid on my podcast two years ago. I've. I've always been high on Cade. Never sold my Cade stock. I couldn't believe that people could watch him play and be and do the thing we do with young players. Oh, he's in a fishing. He doesn't get to the line. Can you give him a little Time do you see? You have to watch. And not like we're going to be right all the time, but you could see enough 8 minute slices of bad Pistons game where he'd be like, oh, there's something Luca ish Luka light here, the way he manipulates space in the paint. Jalen Green's passing is just so disappointing to me that it hasn't evolved at all to the point that when he hits Sengun with a good pocket pass, you're like can you just do that? Just make that pass? And even so, a sustained diet of Alper and Shengun flamingo shots in the pick and roll. It's not going to cut it.
- [95:19]
Rob Mahoney
I enjoy it though.
- [95:20]
Zach Lowe
Personally, I like watching the flamingo shots.
- [95:22]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [95:22]
Zach Lowe
And just to wrap up my old man yelling at cloud segment of the podcast, please, you can't be a serious team and go 41 of 64 on free throws in a playoff series. They're shooting 64% on free throws. Shangun was 1 of 6. Like you just, you're just, just handing teams minutes and quarters and games. But maybe they'll respond tonight and give us one another. Can we have more than one, two, two series that if we get through this four games thing? I mean the Cleveland Miami thing is over?
- [95:53]
Rob Mahoney
Yes.
- [95:54]
Zach Lowe
If we get that's the other game tonight, we only get 1, 2, 2 first round series. That's a, that's good for like getting the games over with and getting to the real stuff, but it's like can we get a little, little excitement?
- [96:06]
Rob Mahoney
I was hoping this first round would have some, at least in the west would have some real stuff and it's had it. It's just can it hold onto it? Right? Like can, can the Lakers manage to put enough together to make that an actual series after going down 3 1? Can the Rockets, you know, grind the warriors to enough of a halt to have their worst instincts come to bear? Like as you mentioned, Golden State is not opposed to shooting itself in the foot. These guys will throw the ball around. They will commit enough turnovers to lose if you push them to do so. You just got to give them like a little more of a nudge than they've been able to do.
- [96:35]
Zach Lowe
Rob Mahoney this is a thrill. We've known each other a while, had dinner during the finals. We are have can trace our NBA lineage to the point forward block on si.com RIP I was the originator of it. You and Ben Golliver took over for me and made it even better. And now I don't know what's going on. It's gone. It's long gone.
- [96:58]
Rob Mahoney
Long gone.
- [96:59]
Zach Lowe
I am a regular reader and the group chat with you and Justin Barrier talking about gardening in Portland for the first five minutes of every podcast or chicken Alfredo last week there was a long pasta discussion and waz just throwing bombs left and right in between cryptic comments about his nightlife. An absolute great listen. It's gotten me through a lot of rides on the peloton. It's a thrill to be a teammate of yours and to actually talk some hoops with you. And I look forward to doing it again.
- [97:29]
Rob Mahoney
That's incredibly kind. Thanks so much for having me, Zach.
- [97:32]
Zach Lowe
All right, everybody, thanks for listening. Thanks to Rob. Thanks to Jesse on the production. We'll see you later this week. Thursday morning. Whatever the hell has happened in the NBA, this has been such a wild week. Who knows what'll be going on? Maybe talk about round two a little bit bit. Thanks for listening to the Zach Low show. Must be 21 and over and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over in President D.C. gambling problem called 1-800- gambler or visit FanDuel.com RG call 1-887-89-7777 or is it ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or is it MD gamblinghelp.org in Maryland? Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 Sport in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPENY or text HOPENY in New York.