← The Zach Lowe Show
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A
This episode is brought to you by State Farm. One minute the crowd's cheering, the next the scoreboard flips. Sports are full of surprises and life isn't much different. That's where State Farm comes in with their easy to use digital tools and over 19,000 local agents who can help you call the right play. Because when you know someone's ready to assist, you have the confidence to take on the unpredictable. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there with the assist. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Price and eligibility vary by state. Coming up on the Zach Low show, the regular season is almost over and we've got a lot of news. Cade Cunningham came back last night. How did he look in his first game back against the Bucks? Victor Wembanyama apparently is going to be semi okay with a bruised rib. Missed San Antonio's last game and went over Portland, but appears likely to get awards consideration by playing one more regular season game. Playoffs. That's pretty hopeful. We'll see how he looks. And the spurs needed a hundred percent. There ain't no margin of error in the hellacious Western Conference. We're going to talk about all that with Stan Van gundy. Oh, Jaden McDaniels came back too. We're going to talk about which playoff races that are still in jeopardy are most interesting to the great coach Stan Van Gundy. West three four five east five to ten Remains a mess. Portland Clippers do you care? Should you care? Do they even care? Yes they do. We're talking about that. Stan's going to reveal his awards choices. He is one of the most independent thinking awards ballot voters in the whole league. He went off the off the grid on a couple of choices last year in a good way. He is not afraid to be against the consensus. He's going to reveal his choices. Dwyane Wade versus James Harden. That's been an ongoing debate. We'll get into that and he's going to talk about Victor Wembanyama's defense from a coaching perspective. We're going to get into all of that and more with the legend Amazon's Stan Van Gundy. The Zach Lowe show is brought to you by FanDuel. The NBA postseason is here and FanDuel knows the only thing better than watching your favorite team win is winning along with them. FanDuel is the best place to bet the teams players and plays during their playoff run. Build a same game parlay or try live betting and jump in after tip off. And don't forget, with Fanduel you get paid instantly when you win, download the FanDuel Sportsbook app now and play your game 20 or over select states 18 and over in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatincut. Welcome to the Zach Lowe Show. We are entering the last two to three games of the regular season. And look who's here. The legend from Amazon prime video from just a bunch of teams in the NBA, the great Stan Van Gundy. How you doing, sir?
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I'm good. And I, you know, you got the New York hat on, but I appreciate for my, as an Orlando person that you got the Mickey Mouse shirt on to make me feel at home.
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A
Yeah, you know, I'm not bitter, Stan. I'm not bitter about what happened at the Worldwide Leader. I still like Disney. I still, I still go down to the theme parks. I just won't get the discounts anymore. I made good use of them back in the day. So a lot of stuff still happening in the NBA even as we get to the home stretch. Victor Wembanyama apparently going to be okay or okay. Ish. He looks likely to play in one of the last two games to get awards consideration. And thank God because no one wants to tear up in their entire awards ballot in multiple categories at the end of the season playoffs. You know, he'll play, I'm assuming, and we'll see. There's no margin for error in the West. There's no margin for like a little setback in the West. Kate Cunningham came back last night against the Zombie Bucks. I thought he looked pretty good. Jaden McDaniels came back for the Timberwolves. That's like a sneaky, important thing, particularly if you're looking at the third seed, maybe Denver. And like, I got to go through. Full strength Minnesota, full strength San Antonio, full strength Oklahoma City. Some seeds have been clinched. Oklahoma City is number one. San Antonio is number two. Minnesota is number six. Detroit is number one. Atlanta had two chances to lock up a top six spot at home. Lost to the Knicks, lost to the Cavs. Lots to do. Stan, are you ready? Are you ready for the playoffs?
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B
Yeah, I can't wait. I think it's going to be, I think it's going to be great. I think that, you know, the east is as wide open as I've ever seen a conference be. I mean, I just, I don't think that there's a first round series that could come up where you're like, okay, that One's going to be an easy one. I think any of those teams, because you're looking at Philly has now gotten healthy, Orlando has gotten healthy. Miami, this is. They've been their pattern for what, five or six years, like playing team in the regular season. And then they look like a totally different group when the, when the postseason comes. I just don't see anything easy there in the east and then the West, I mean, we see a collision course between Oklahoma City and San Antonio, but I think Denver at full strength is, can. Can be a threat to anybody. I'm not sure it's as wide open as the east, but certainly at the top we can see some excitement.
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A
Yeah, I would say the one exception to the Miami playing rule was last year where they got historically steamrolled by Cleveland in the first round. But know they have experience for whatever it's worth coming out of the play in. So I will start by asking you this. There are three broad playoff races that are still in flux as we enter literally like the last days of the regular season. Number one, the West. 3, 4, 5. Between Denver, who is currently 52 and 28. The Lakers 50 and 29 are fourth, the Rockets 50 and 29 are fifth. That is still very much in play the way that Houston loses the tiebreakers to both of those teams. So it's going to be very, very hard for them to get up to three. They're probably stuck in the four or five bracket. So the questions then become who do they play? Does the Lake, do the Lakers get three or do Denver get three? And who has home court? If it's Lakers, Houston, who's the 4 seed? Because they're tied right now. The Nuggets have two games left against the Thunder and the Spurs. That was. That looks like a horrible gauntlet two, three weeks ago now it's like you just don't know which version of which team you're actually going to get. Given that they have now locked up their seeds. If they go one and one in those two games and the Lakers go three and oh, and they finish with the warriors, the Suns and the Jazz. So, like, not impossible even without Luka and Reeds, that they go three and oh, the Lakers would actually get the third seed because they have the tiebreaker against the Nuggets, I think the Thunder have some incentive to keep the Nuggets snug and cozy in that third seed. So we'll see how that goes. And so we have that race. We have the east from 5 to 10, which is like Atlanta To Miami, it's complete chaos. Atlanta and Toronto still have the upper hand for five, six and play in avoidance. But Orlando is still there. Philly as you mentioned, full strength is still there. Charlotte is like the team that nobody wants to play. They just can't get out of the 9:10 game. They still have a chance to. They still have a chance to. And if, if I'm Boston I'm like, I would love Charlotte to stick in the 910 game because then they can only get the 8th seed and we don't have to worry about them in the first round. So there's a lot at stake there. And then if you care, Stan. Portland Clippers for the eighth seed versus the ninth seed in the west is going to come down to one head to head game likely between those two teams. Whoever wins that game wins the tie break, wins the eighth seed, gets two cracks at the play at the playoffs and gets the opportunity to be the seventh seed instead of the eighth seed if they win their first crack. Which of these three playoff races? West 3, 4, 5. East. Bottom half play in west is the most interesting to you?
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B
Well, I have the most interest in the Clippers in Portland because my brother's an assistant in with the Clippers. So on a personal level that's the one I'm watching. But the interesting one I think as just an NBA watchers in the east because like I said earlier, I think any of those teams in those spots from five on down can win in the first round. I don't think there's anybody, I don't think Detroit or Boston who are going to be one and two more than likely I don't think they're looking at any of those teams. As you know, that's a walkover. You're absolutely right. I mean since January 22nd, Charlotte's been the best team in the east. So you know, like there's no reason to think they couldn't win a series. So I think that's the real interesting one. And then out west this is just coming off having done the game the other day. I just want San Antonio at 2 and Denver at 3 so we get a full series of Jokic and women. Yama, that game on Saturday was the best regular season game of the year. And as fans we deserve seven games of that series and we deserve it to go like four of them to go to overtime.
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A
I think the West 3, 4, 5 would be my answer. Only because the east could go so many different directions that it breaks my brain and I'm like just, I'M I'm, I'm reaching. Like just wake me up and tell me who's playing who in the first round. I do think the Charlotte element is interesting. Can Charlotte crack the 78 and put the 7 seed at least somewhat in play for them? They have the fourth best point differential in the conference. Not since January 22nd for the entire season. They're probably number one since January, whatever date you mentioned. But even for the season they have now passed Cleveland. Like they're like a legit, very good team. And if I'm one of these, like I don't want any part of them in the first round. So if I'm Boston, I'm at least like stay down there in nine, ten and we're cool with that. I'm not sure who to trust among all these other teams. It's like Phillies healthy again. Orlando got Franz Wagner and Anthony Black back. People kind of forgot about Anthony Black. He's super important to their team. It's like the last stand for this version of the Magic. I think so. Yeah. It's a mess. 3, 4, 5 in the, in the west is. I mean I said this the other day, if I'm Denver, I'm looking at Minnesota, San Antonio, Oklahoma City, given we know that Minnesota has a tendency to play up to their level of competition, that they have beaten Denver in a seven game series now we're two years removed from that. So you know it's worth whatever you think it's worth. But they've played them generally tough. That's got to be like among the hardest potential roads to the finals in the history of the NBA. So question one. Minnesota is locked into sixth. Would you give them a realistic chance at an upset in that series or his Denver's offense 10 game winning streak just been so dominant and Minnesota just been so kind of iffy for the last month that you think that's an easier series now than it looked like it might have been a month ago for Denver.
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B
Yeah, I'd make Denver a pretty heavy favorite, but certainly not impossible. The one like who you want to play out there is la. I mean they're not going to have, there's no possible way they're going to have Reeves and Doncic for that entire first round series. I honestly, I think it takes a miracle for LA to win in the first round of the playoffs. What we're talking about, if those guys come back, there's no chance they're at full strength. And look, I watched Denver just taking them apart even when they had everybody in the first half of that game. I mean, if I'm Denver, I probably like falling to four and getting the Lakers at five would not, would not upset me, to be honest. You know, now you have to play obviously OKC in the second round, but here's the bottom line. You got to beat. You're going to have to beat Oklahoma City to get to where you want to go. I don't care who you are. So when you play them, to me, doesn't really matter if you fall to
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four, you might get the Lakers, you might get the Rockets. Either way, that's, you know, even putting the Lakers, the Lakers without their two best players in play, that's a win for the Denver Nuggets. I think they'd be heavier favorites over the Rockets. So the Rockets have been hot in the last two or three weeks. They seem to have found their mojo again than they would over the Timberwolves. I posited that to Bill the other day. Would you, would you try to slide to 4 if you're Denver, it's, it's hard because you have the tiebreak over Houston and you have now a game edge over the Lakers. But. And he said he would wait, he would just try to avoid Oklahoma City as long as possible. I don't know what the right answer is. There's no right answer in the West. It's just. I just am very interested to see where it falls.
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B
Yeah, I think when you try to manipulate that stuff, you're sending the wrong message to your team. I mean, no matter how you try to put it, you, anytime you as a coach with a very good team, a title contending team that you look like you're scared of certain people, that's not a good message to your team. And I don't think that's how David Adelman will approach it. I think Denver Nuggets, you've got the best player in the world, you're healthy, you're coming together. I think they're in bring it on mode. Let's just get healthy and get ready to go. And I like that. I think trying to manipulate your playoff matchup is. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Like you're going to have to win. If you want to win a championship, you got to win four series and you don't get to pick your opponents along the way. Get ready, play as well as you can and let's go.
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A
Yeah, the only guy they're missing right now in their key rotation is Peyton Watson. And I do think he's a Big deal for them, particularly in an Oklahoma City matchup at some point, whenever that would be. Or the San Antonio with all their guards. He guards ball handling like fastball handlers really well.
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B
And I am their problem. Right Zach, I mean, and he's other than Aaron Gordon. He's their next best defender. And so even when we had that overtime game the other day, you know, with San Antonio, it's like, you know, you get a timeout in a defensive possession, you know, Peyton Watson would have been in the game in that situation and they don't have him. So I agree with you that he's a, that he's a big loss. You know, I think the, I don't think, I think the four or five series will be a good series and I think that might be the only real competitive series out west. Well, any serious. The only. I think the Lakers series will be a walkover because I just don't think those guys are going to be healthy. And then I think the, I think Oklahoma City and San Antonio will roll over any of the playoff teams. So I think whoever the non Lakers series is could be competitive. And other than that, I don't think we're going to have great first round series, but I think the second round is going to be.
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A
Buckle up.
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B
Phenomenal.
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A
Yeah, the Watson piece is interesting because I'm very curious to see how much Denver plays Watson and Gordon together. Maybe even with Cam Johnson who's playing really well right now. I mean he had some of the best defensive plays of his life in that game you did against the Spurs. And the offense has been coming along too just to see if they can find the right offense, defense, balance because they have the number one offense in the NBA by a mile now. They have the second most efficient offense in the history of the NBA. Now that's a little bit misleading when you, when you go by like how much higher they are than league average. They're like 15th in the history of the NBA. Still an incredible offense. If their defense can just be like competent and on a string, they get very, very scary. I did want to ask you, looking ahead, if there is a San Antonio Denver matchup at any point you were at that game, game of the year. Did you learn anything like X's and O's wise from that game that would, that you would take? That is like going to be embedded in your brain, a tactic one of the teams tried or a lineup or a wrinkle that you saw that's just going to be in your head if they play again.
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B
Well the one thing that stood out, that was obvious. David Adelman didn't have a lot of choices in that game. He didn't have Peyton Watson in that game. He didn't even have Zeke Najee. But he tried to go small against San Antonio and he learned quickly. You cannot go small against Womenyama. That's just a whole. That's a whole nother level. That will not work against Wimby. So I think that's out not only for Denver, but for everybody. You're not going. You're not going small against them. I thought, you know, he mixed in some. Some zone, which was interesting because he played Aaron Gordon in the middle of it and Jokic on the wing. And I thought they had, you know, limited success, but at least we're able to. To change the tempo. I think David searching defensively because you made the point if their defense can even be competent. I don't know if they can. I mean, we've seen it all year now. The only thing I'll say is if you go all the way back to the start of the year, they were a top five defense when they came out of the gate with everybody healthy, so maybe they can. And I agree with you, if they can, that roster is great. And that to me, they're on pretty equal level with Oklahoma City and San Antonio. If they get Watson back and everybody's playing, I mean, I just think that's probably the three best teams in the league right there. The three teams out west agreed.
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I mean, I came into the season like, on paper, I was high on the spurs but did not expect this. And so I said, on paper, Denver, Oklahoma City is the de facto NBA Finals. And now obviously San Antonio has butted its way toward the top of that conversation. The Denver defense thing, you're dead on. The first 15 games of the season, they had a little bit of shooting luck. Like, teams were a little cold from three, but eye test was like, wow. They came out of the gate super connected. Everybody was on a string. There were no, like, two guys rotating to one guy. One guy being laid on a rotation. People shrugging their shoulders. And I was like, man, they're coming out like they're ready for the playoffs to start now. And the last two months, people have been shrugging their shoulders, pointing at each other like, wait, I thought you were going to be there. Were we supposed to switch that? Like, where did. I don't know what. Where those first 20 games went. If it's just the injuries that sort of disrupted their continuity, whatever. But if that team is anywhere still in this team, they are on par with anybody in the. I mean, on par. Not like Puncher's chance there'd be underdogs on par with anybody in the NBA. In Oklahoma City, in San Antonio. The one wrinkle I thought was interesting was, you know, Wembanyama. You just don't know what to do with him as, as a coach, game planning, your offense. You don't know whether is it better if he's in the action, out of the action. We can't really put him out of the action because he's just too big and too fast. The one thing I thought Denver seemed to do more of than usual, even for them, was run inverted pick and rolls with Jokic as the ball handler. When Wembanyama was on him to just try to be like, here's one, you're in the pick and roll, but you're not doing your normal thing in the pick and roll. You're defending a ball handler. Let's see how that looks. I thought that kind of worked for them.
- [20:03]
B
I thought it worked well and as a matter of fact, I didn't think they ran it enough. To me, that should be a staple when they play him because it's the only way. Screening him up there is the only way you at least temporarily take him out of the possession defensively with that screen, you know, just at least for a second. Because I don't think we've ever had a guy in this league who is as impactful defensively. We've had rim protectors, but this guy's more than a rim protector. He gets out and blocks three point shots. I mean, the ground he covers. And there were. Jokic had 13 assists in that game, I think, and there were at least another four or five times. Zach, you saw it where he made a great pass on a back cut. And then there was women Yama and the guy doesn't even try to shoot it. Those are normally layups for Denver and you don't get to do it. He changes the entire game. I agree with you on the inverted pick and roll. Jokic, of course, one of the few guys you can do that with. Now, what San Antonio went to a lot in that game is they played Keldon Johnson on Jokic to keep women Yama. They want women Yama to be able to play off the ball and Rome as much as they possibly can. They were planning on Christian Brown a lot, who's been the guy who hasn't shot the ball as well, though he did in that game. But it was like, if you remember that game, which I know you do, it was corner three point shooting practice for Christian Brown. They literally didn't guard him. He did a good job. He knocked him down. So there's certainly going to be that chess match. Same thing at the other end. They tried to play Aaron Gordon on women Yama, you know, and have Jokic guard guy. I mean they're. Everybody's trying to manipulate the matchups as they will in the playoffs. It was a playoff type game. The stars all played. Man, that was NBA. I'm getting excited just thinking about that game again.
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A
Big questions for Stan Van Gundy. We'll do this. Big question number one touches on what we just talked about. I asked you this in preparation. Who was the toughest defender to game plan against when you were a head coach? The one guy who was like, he disrupts a lot of what we do. We have to, we have to think differently playing him. And is there any comparison between that person or those people and how you imagine it would be to coach against Victor Wembanyama?
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B
I mean, the guy for me was, was probably Gobert because he just shut down the paint. And we were, you know, we were always a team that wanted to try to attack the paint first and then throw the ball out and shoot threes. And because of Gobert, the rest of the team didn't really have to suck in against you. So it was hard to score at the rim. And it was also. They could take away you spraying the ball out. But still no comparison to Win Binyama because Gobert couldn't get out to the perimeter the way Win Benyama can. I mean shoot to watch women Yama be in the paint and close out on a guy and block A3. I mean, it's like, what are we doing here? I mean, he can, he can guard the shooting fives, whereas Gobert, you know, we didn't have at that time shooting fives. But Gobert can't. I mean, you know, you can gain an advantage on them. You can't do it with women Yama. And if they have to late in games, women Yama can switch out and guard a guard. I mean, it's just. I've never seen anything like him. He's so far from a rim protector. The other guy that for me gave us a lot of trouble and was disruptive, was a perimeter guy was run our test before he became Metta World Peace. Because especially when I was in Orlando, you know, we ran a lot of stuff through Hito Turkalu and he was the one guy who could really get into Turkoglu and disrupt him a little bit on his ball handling. With his size and strength and length, he would be the other guy.
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A
What a great mid 2000s callback. Hated Turkoglu vs Ron Artest. That just reminds me of young me in a shabby New York City apartment watching league pass on a bad television like breaking down, taking notes. What a great time. Big question with Stan Van Gundy. Number two, Rapid fire through your individual awards ballot, which is done. And I don't know if you know this, but somebody actually did a study last year of the voters who were, I would say, most courageous about bucking consensus. And you were at the top of the list of bucking consensus. You are not afraid to go. Not off the board, but, like, everybody thinks this, I think this, and I don't care if it's a little bit different. Were you aware of that, by the way?
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B
I was not at all. I will say this. I don't want to pat myself on the back, but even when I was coaching Zach, I spend a lot of time on this because I think it's important to players. And so I think, as voters, it shouldn't be just off the top of your head. I think you need to sit down, you need to watch a lot of games, you need to look at all the numbers and. And you need to give it a lot of thought. I think we all, as voters owe that to the players. So I think this is. Of the years I've been voting for these, I think it was the hardest. I mean, I think a lot of these are really, really close. The only easy one to me is Defensive player of the Year. That one's easy. I mean, I don't know how you vote for anybody other than Wimble. I think there's other great defenders in the league. There's guys I really like, but I don't know how you vote for anybody else on defensive player of the year. If he gets his 65 games, which he should. But every other award, to me, was very, very difficult.
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A
Yeah, we can skip that one. I said the other day, if he actually can't play in a 65th game, I think this might be the only. It would be unprecedented going from potential and I think should be unanimous winner to, oh, my God.
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B
Who are we voting for? Like, what?
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A
Who are the other candidates? Okay, Rapid fire. Sam Van Gundy's MVP for the 2025, 2026 NBA season.
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B
Same guy I've had for every year I've been a voter. Jokic, I respect it.
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A
Give me the case for Jokic over Shea because I have Shea and obviously look, all four of these guys at the top are unimpeachable, historical, like you can't fault any of them really. They can nitpick some Luka defense early in the season. Whining to the refs, Wemby's minutes, the top two, Jokic, Jokic defense and turnovers. I think you could nitpick, but give, give me the case for him over Shea.
- [27:30]
B
Well, first of all, I think Jokic, his defense is underrated. I think that that knock should have gone out five years ago. I'm not, he's not win Benyama, he's not Rudy Gobert, but he's a, he's a solid defender. I mean you watch him in pick and roll defense, people go and adding that's not going to go. And you're certainly not going at him one on one. He's smart, his communication is excellent. I don't think he's an all defense guy.
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A
But you don't, you don't think that slipped at all post knee injury.
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B
I really don't. And as I was just going to say, I think I would put him on the same level defensively as I would put Shea on. I think Shay is good. I think Shea's good off the ball. Shane never has to guard a high level score. Not because I'm not even saying he couldn't, but they've got Lou Dort, they've got Kayson Wallace, they've got Jalen Williams. He's just never in that matchup. I'd put him on the same level. I think it's super close. I just think that what Jokic has done, first of all to lead the league in rebounding and assists, both by healthy margins, is. It's ridiculous. Those are two. Like he averages what, four more assists a game or three more assists a game than Shea, who's a point guard. Like this is, this is insane. I think Jokic, to me, the. And it is, it's a very thin difference. Jokic to me as the guy who lifts his teammates a little bit more is the one with all of the passing. Everything runs through him. I think Shea's a one on one guy. I think Jokic, his defensive challenges are overrated. I think Wimby's a hard one too. You know, Wimby's made the case for himself, which I respect, honestly.
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A
I like it.
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B
And he's right. He's so far ahead of everybody. Else at one end of the floor that he may be the guy that deserves to get it. The problem, the only reason I put Wimby back in the third spot is that's the. That team is so deep and they've gotten production from so many guys. I mean I've gone through six man of the year. I had three spurs in my top six for sixth man of the year. I mean this team's absurd. Steph Castle's great. So, so the reason I have Wimpy third is because of the people he's had around him.
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A
The three spurs are Harper, Keldon, Johnson, who's one of the favorites and are you putting, are you throwing Cornett in there?
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B
I am.
- [30:16]
A
I mean if you look at that
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B
what he's done on a per minute basis, you look at the advanced stats on him and you look at how they won when women Yama was out. I mean this guy is. He's a starting level center. So it's been one of the more
- [30:34]
A
interesting things about this season and I think a tribute to the depth of some of the best teams and the adaptability of both players and coaches. Players, players who are ninth, eighth men in the NBA. A lot of them, particularly perimeter players have more in their games than they often get to show. All of these teams have been pretty successful win loss records with their best players out. Like Denver survived Jokic being out, they went above 500. Detroit survived Cade being out, they went above 500. You're talking about the Spurs. But it's a very, it's interesting. I've made the case for Shay before. I love Jokic. I don't care who wins. They're both incredible. The argument against Shay is often the Thunder win with defense and he's good but not great on that end. I would just, I think he's better than just good. But I would also just continue to point out the Thunder have not proven for any sustainable period of time that they have a functional NBA offense, a high level NBA offense without Shea, 121 points per hundred possessions with Shea, 110 without him. And you mentioned all the guys that they have defensively. I mean it does. We do have to mention like Jalen Williams basically just didn't play this season. He missed three quarters of the season. All their guys have been in and out of the lineup. Caruso, they load managed throughout the entire season. Like I think Shay did as much heavy lifting for a superstar as anybody in the league. But again like you just can't go wrong. Jokic has made an Incredible late push. These are urgent games for Denver in a way that they are not for Oklahoma City. I don't care. It's a toss up.
- [32:07]
B
I'm still going with you on that. If, if it goes to sga, if it goes to Wimanyama, even if they get the waiver, which I hope they don't, and it goes to Luca, I got no problem with any of those guys.
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A
Why do you hope. Why do you hope they don't?
- [32:27]
B
I like. Well, because I just think it opens up a can of worms. Like if you're going to. If you're going to do it for him. Then again. So, Zach, when I was coaching, I was a big stickler on time, show up on time. And I had one guy, I'm not going to get into names, say I'm one minute late. What's the big deal? I said, okay, one minute's not a big deal. Then how about two? No, that's not big. I said, how about three? And then you just keep going down the line and you say, okay, so where should we draw the line? And now the whole team was involved and they said 10 o'. Clock. I said, because somewhere you draw the line. So if Luca missing it by one game is not a big deal, then what about 63 games? What about 62? What about 61? And the whole thing with his wife having the baby. Come on. If those were the only games he missed, fine. Everybody's missed games for personal reasons. So now I got somebody in the hospital. I've got whatever. We either have a line or we don't. If we have a line, which I personally like, then let's stick to it. He didn't. He didn't make it. Or are there some of those other games maybe he could have played and would have played had they been at the end of the year to qualify. I think it's good that we are prioritizing guys playing. But here's what I would say on the 65 game thing. I think everybody's missing the point. It's not whether we should have the 65 game thing or not. The real point is why do we have so many guys who have to miss more than 20% of the season? That to me is the problem that needs to be solved in the league. Why do we have so many guys who can't play? 65 games is not. I mean, you're missing still over 25 or over 20% of the games. Like if you didn't. If most people went to work and missed one day of work every week, which is 20% of your workweek. You're not going to be employee of the month.
- [34:33]
A
So is that a schedule issue? Is that a style of play issue? Is a little bit of both. Like as you think about this, what are the fixes or whatever that you think about?
- [34:44]
B
Well, I'm, I'm way, you know, I'm way off the grid on this one. Because yes, I think the pace of the game has gone up, which has made it harder. And the way we have answered it as a league, most teams is as the demands of the game have gone up, we've decided what we need to do is work less in preparation, don't practice, don't do it. It's not even to me, it makes no sense. I don't think our guys, we haven't conditioned the guys to play an 82 game schedule. I think it's why we're getting most of these soft tissue injuries. I think they need to work more. I just don't think that we've conditioned them well enough. I think I'm totally on an island on this one. But I think it's basically you're not these sports science people who I think it's to cover their own asses because nobody, nobody is going to say, nobody's getting in trouble, losing a job or being questioned for working a guy too little. Nobody is saying, you know what, they don't play that guy enough minutes. You know what, they don't practice enough. But if you're Tom Thibodeau and you play guys big minutes and try to practice, that you'll get criticized for if somebody gets hurt. And so if I'm a strength guy and I want a strength and conditioning guy and I want to keep my job, well, shit, I know the way to do that. This guy needs a day off. He can't do this, he can't do that. I don't think it works. I think our approach in the league at least, at the very least needs examination. Instead of this group think that what we need is more time off and to do less. Nobody's practicing. I think it's a major problem and I think it's something that needs a lot of thought and truly open minded people who at least will look at the possibility of maybe what we need to do is do more.
- [36:53]
A
I will only say this before we take a break. Number one, there are sports science people or sports science adjacent people on teams who actually agree with you and their teams operate a little differently because they agree with you. Number two, we disagree a little bit on the Luka appeal, but that's a different story for another day. Let's take a quick break and Stan will run through the rest of his awards choices. The Zach Lowe show is brought to you by FanDuel. The NBA season on FanDuel, it's all about the boost. Because game days mean your chance to boost your bet and make every play pay off. That's right, all customers get a profit boost tonight, so every bucket counts a little more. So lock in your bets, boost your odds and make every night count with FanDuel, official sports betting partner of the NBA. Head to FanDuel.com low to get started. 21 or over in select states or 18 and over in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Opt in required bonus issued is now withdrawable. Profit boost tokens gambling problem call 1-800-GAMBLER call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat Connecticut this episode is brought to you by State Farm. One minute the crowd's cheering, the next the scoreboard flips. Sports are full of surprises and life isn't much different. That's where State Farm comes in with their easy to use digital tools and over 19,000 local agents who can help you call the right play. Because when you know someone's ready to assist, you have the confidence to take on the unpredictable. Like a good neighbor, State Fart is there with the assistance. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state. Okay, we did defense Player of the year, mvp, Rookie of the Year. Coach, this is a. This is a toughie.
- [38:40]
B
It is tough. It's really tough. It's a two man race obviously, but I'll take Flag. I just think he does so much more. I mean, this guy's taken on a huge role. I mean, I know the team is bad, but he's the best player on the team. He does it all. He handles, he creates shots, he rebounds the ball. Knipple has been able to just play to specific strengths. He's better than people think. He can make plays, he can pass the ball. His maturity is off the charts. I love him, but I just think he's been in a situation where he's had people around him who helped make the game easier for him. I don't think that has been the case with Flag. This one's more the eye test. To me, I just think Flags a far more versatile and a better player. And at the defensive end of the floor. I don't really. Knipple is better than people think he is defensively, I'll give him that. But I don't think he's close to Flag as a defender either.
- [39:46]
A
I agree on the latter point. I've been leaning Khan the entire season. Other than the mid, the mid season point where Flag had like a 49 point game against Khan and then a couple other huge scoring games. I thought he was about to had taken the lead and then he got hurt and missed some games. I think it's wide open again. 50, 50. I'm going to take it down to the wire. Flag will be the better player long term defensively. I agree with you. Khan actually has been hunted a little bit more in the last three or four weeks in some of these games than previously and he's done just okay. Like he holds up better than I think people think. But also he's, it's not like, you know, you get him in a mismatch and he just stops you every time. He's been a little more quiet offensively in the last month than before and Flag is just carrying these mass unit lineups that like sometimes they have a point guard and sometimes they don't. Sometimes they have an NBA level starting center and sometimes they don't. His floater game is outrageous. His transition game is outrageous. This is one to me that you can't really go wrong on as even as recently as 10 days ago when Flag had his first giant scoring game, I was like settle down. I still think it's Khan for the season level body of work. The advanced stats will all favor Khan because three point shooting just weighs so heavily and he's an all time great three point shooter at least for a single season already. They also favor winning teams in some cases so he's getting bumped up because the Hornets are good and the Mavericks are bad. I'm going to save my final decision for next week, but I think it's wide open again in a way that it was not six man of the year. Who'd you go with?
- [41:23]
B
This one was hard for me too. It was really, really hard for me on my top three guys. But I'm going Keldon Johnson now more for earlier in the year than later to be honest, because they've leaned more on Harper later. But I took Kelton Johnson over Jaime Haquez Jr. And Reed shepherd and it was really hard for me and I went back and forth on that for a long time. I think those guys have all been really good, but I thought Particularly early in the year, San Antonio played their best basketball when Kelden Johnson came on the floor and I thought he got him off to first half of the year. A great start. It was hard for me on those three guys. I had Harper at number four and Nas Reed at number five and then Cornett at number six. But that, that was a real, a real tough one for me.
- [42:21]
A
I think the whole ballot is tough. I think you have the right two guys at one and two people can debate the order. I would probably lean slightly toward Keldon Johnson because of the three point shooting and I also think he's a better defender than Jaime Haka's junior by a little bit, as evidenced by that they'll put him on big centers sometimes and he holds up fine like you mentioned with Jokic. I mean, no one holds up fine against Jokic, but they do that against like normal centers, allowing Wemby to roam around the third spot. I mean, I haven't even decided why is I Odesumnu not. Not a member of this conversation?
- [42:57]
B
Yeah, he was. He was on my list. You know, he is a member of the conversation, you know, as was Cornet for me. I mean, I, yeah, those guys. There have been a lot of, a lot of guys. I'll tell you who hasn't been part of the conversation. That entered my mind and, and entered my mind on the most improved too is Mamu Kalashvili. Mamu Kelish Veli has been outstanding in Toronto and their offense thrives. They're an offensively challenged team and his skill set has really helped him offensively. There have been a lot of guys, obviously had Pritchard been on the bench all year because his production hasn't changed at all since he's gone to the bench. He's having a career year. He's average. He averaged exactly 16.9 as a starter. He's averaging 16.9 as a bench guy. Shooting's even been a little better off the bench. He'd probably win it again, but he's. He spent most of his years a starter, so I'll go with Kelden. But there's. There's probably seven or eight guys you could throw in there that I wouldn't argue with you on.
- [44:11]
A
Yeah, the big edge Hawkes has over Kelton Johnson is assists. Like five assists and five boards off the bench is hard to do. So I, you can make an argument for you. To them I would just lean slightly Keldon Johnson, but it's close.
- [44:22]
B
I think the other also has a sister who just won an NBA Championship. So you got to give him, you got to give him a point for that. And she, she should have been the most outstanding player in the, in the, in the final four for that too. But yeah, I don't know that that helped timing's case.
- [44:39]
A
I was so glad that he got to see the game. See the final game. Yeah. You mentioned all the other inner circle guys. I think other than maybe Tim Hardaway Jr. Who, who deserves a look.
- [44:49]
B
He's been fabulous, you know, and this is where I go back to the mvp. Everybody has career years playing with Jokic. Everybody. Like Aaron Gordon, when he came, like changed his whole game. I mean it's just. And you can be anything. You can be a three point shooter, you can be a guy who works around the basket. Like it's going to fit with Jokic. It's just going to fit because he's going to make you better. So yeah, Tim Hardaway Jr. Should have been on that list also. I should have mentioned him, especially since I've known Timmy since he was 3 years old.
- [45:28]
A
I'm glad you mentioned Dylan Harper. It's always awkward when there's like, is he a sixth man or a seventh man? Like if Kelvin Johnson is sixth man of the year, like can you have. This happened with Joe Ingles and Jordan Clarkson in Utah when they went 12 in the voting a few years ago. He. But he's been unbelievable. The two guys I think who would have been inner circle contenders had they played more games in minutes are Isaiah Stewart and A.J. mitchell. They just haven't.
- [45:53]
B
Oh, no question on both of those guys. No question. A.J. mitchell probably would have been my number one, to be honest. A.J. mitchell is, he's outstanding and he has, he's been incredible and I think getting him back is probably what gives them in my mind, puts them right back on top again over San Antonio and Denver. I think he's that good.
- [46:18]
A
All right, most improved player. I don't want to spend much any time on really. Just say the name of your most improved player.
- [46:23]
B
Nikhil Alexander Walker.
- [46:26]
A
We agree. Okay, Big question number two for Stan Van Gundy. Have you heard a tanking solution that you enjoy the most? Or is your favorite tanking solution or are you a no solution? Everything is actually fine. This is an anomalous year and an anomalous draft guy.
- [46:44]
B
Well, it's certainly not fine. I don't like anything that incentivizes losing in any way and to me it's simple. But it's the one they don't want to go to. And I don't really understand it and I'm just, to me it's easy. You get rid of the draft, it's the only thing that incentivizes losing. And I've looked at all the solutions and number one, I applaud the league. I applaud Adam Silver in the league. They're trying, they want to figure it out. But I don't care if you flatten the odds or do it over two years or limit. You can't be in the top for two years in a row, great, I'll be fifth the next year. There's still an incentive to losing and the only way there's not is if you take the draft out. There's absolutely no incentive to losing. None. I mean you still might limit your salary cap to get in the fruit, but on a night to night basis, what you put out there, you're going to try to, you're going to try to win. And to me it also gives us a chance to have parity in the league. I had a three part solution. Now obviously it has to be collectively bargained. I would do three things. Number one, take out the draft. Number two, obviously that goes with it, get rid of the rookie salary scale. And third, get rid of the individual max for players. So what does that do? You take the rookie. If somebody Cooper Flag coming out, people are saying, well the small market teams, the only chance they have to get great players is the draft. Bullshit. I'm not buying that. Now Cooper Flag comes out, I'll give you six years at 50 million a year. Well, I've got to have room under the salary cap to do it. I can manage my salary cap. I think it gives the rookies coming out some choice in terms of where they go. I think it gives anybody a chance. What the disadvantage is going to be, who's going to vote against it is the players association. Because if there's no rookie salary cap, those kind of guys, AJ Debancer, they're going to get big money and there's less money for the people in the middle. So it's the same reason the individual max will never be voted out. To me it makes no sense. To me it makes no sense. Having an individual max doesn't help the owners like the salary caps, the salary cap. Who it goes to doesn't matter. Who it matters to is the majority of players in the league are not LeBron James, Luka Doncic, Nikola Jokic, Steph Curry. They want more of that money for themselves. And certainly what would happen with no Individual max. I think two things would happen. The stars would spread out across the league because right now you can get two or three stars on a team. Will a guy sacrifice a million or two a year to play on a better team?
- [49:51]
A
Yeah.
- [49:51]
B
Will he sacrifice 20 million a year? No, he won't. And so we would spread them out around the league, but what we would have is we would have the stars and minimum level guys because the people would pay the stars. I don't have a problem with that. Number one, we should be paying the people who people are paying to see and watch on tv. Nobody's turning on, nobody is turning on a game. And I don't mean this as a knock and I'm just throwing a name out there. Nobody's turning on that Denver, San Antonio game the other night and said, Dan, I can't wait to watch Cam Johnson. They're turning on that game because it's Win Benyama and Jokic. So why shouldn't they make the money? That's like saying, and now I'm making myself old here. But the example I've used is saying there's a limit on what Gladys Knight can make because we want more of the money to go to the Pips. Like, no, that's not the way it works. We don't limit Bruce Springsteen's money. So more goes to the East Street Band. Like pay the stars, spread them out around the league. This is my solution. But the big one is get rid of the draft. What possible. No other plan gets rid of the incentive to lose. It may decrease it a little, but it doesn't get rid of it. You get rid of the draft. What's your incentive to lose?
- [51:18]
A
Um, it's a, it's a bold proposal. You're, you're, you're dead on about this. So here's I have a bunch of tidbits from the GM call that happened the other day. There is still a lot. There's unanimous support for something needs to change. There is still some trepidation among people who would GMs who would say if we flatten the odds and to a point that good teams will move up more and the worst teams will have less of a chance to get the number one and two picks. You know, how are small markets going to get players and are bad teams going to be trapped in badness in perpetuity? And I think you're right to say, well, there's another level lever to pull. And the lever is if the draft isn't as much of a fail safe for Bad teams then make free agency more of a fail safe or more of an opportunity for bad teams. Whether it's they get more cap space through X, Y and Z, rolling over cap space, eliminating restricted free agency so that the youngest players become unrestricted free agents sooner. Like those things are all interconnected. The other thing I would say to the worry warts about, you know, like someone I think in the GM call actually said something like, well, what. What about the Kings and the Wizards or the Kings and the Pelicans? And I'm like, well, the Kings and the Wizards have been picking in the top 10 in the draft for the majority of the last 20 years and they still stink. So the draft as it is, the lottery as it's been, isn't helping them because they can't get out of their own goddamn way. Do you want to hear some other tidbits from that meeting?
- [52:47]
B
Sure.
- [52:48]
A
The two years combined record has, has kind of gone out of favor. That. That seems to be. That seems to be out there is the flattened odds thing is the most popular proposal. And it would include the play in teams with less. With a little bit there would be. With a little bit less, but flattened odds. A little bit worse. But flattened odds there is still some momentum for. Did you see the five by five proposal where the teams are tiered into groups of five and individual lotteries happen and a team can't fall. The worst team can't fall below X. There's still some support for that. There's a lot of support for this came up a lot in the meeting that the punishments when teams are caught tanking need to have more teeth to them. And whether that's moving down in the draft or losing picks or something like. It was a surprising amount of teams who are like that would make me a little nervous because I'm not sure I want the lead the league to be judge, jury and executioner on, you know, whether this player is hurt.
- [53:50]
B
I agree on that one. That's too vague. I mean, I love the idea of it, but man, trying to decide what's tanking. Like we just had the issue with Sacramento and that foul on Seth Curry, unbelievable, you know. Was that just a tactical mistake? I don't know that I want the league deciding whether or not somebody just screwed up or whether it was. Whether it was tanking in the third quarter of a game. I, I don't like that because I don't think you can set the rule. And I don't think any of these things are foolproof. Zach. I think they're good attempts, but we've got one that is absolutely foolproof. We've got one, get rid of the draft.
- [54:34]
A
Here's another one. So here's another one. So all of these things are like, we gotta fix it, we gotta do something to fix it. Now, the term that came up a lot in the GM call from what I was told, is sunset clause or sunsetting them. Like we put these things in now and if we decide they're a half measure, a bad idea, have had unintended consequences. We're going to write in whatever we collectively bargain with the union that these can sunset after X amount of years. And we can look at maybe other proposals, including more dramatic proposals. There was a proposal presented. It's not novel, but this is the first time it's been presented in detail where you don't get rid of the draft entirely, but you essentially get rid of the set draft order entirely. And the proposal would work like this. Every team gets, let's just say 100 draft credits, okay? And you bid your draft credits on every individual slot in the draft. You can also trade your draft credits so I can trade a veteran player for 40 draft credits from another team if I want to go in a rebuilding direction. And as teams advance in the playoffs under this proposal, they lose draft credits so that the best teams would have less to bid on individual picks. And then you take whatever credits you want and you bid, you can bid them all on the number one pick in this draft. Or if you think that there's another good draft coming in two years, you can roll your credits over in future years so you can kind of strategize and trade your credits. It's like a market based thing. And then there would even be a lottery. So like if, like if I bid the most on the number one pick, I bid all 300 credits I've accumulated, I don't automatically win it. I get put in a mini lottery with like the two or three or four highest bidders. And if I lose that. I thought that was interesting and there seemed interesting. One GM actually told me, I was surprised, he was surprised by how many teams were like, this is actually an idea worth thinking about. Then there was one more idea attached to the, attached to the flattened odds thing. Like if we're going to do that, how about, how about this? The bottom three teams in the standings or the bottom four teams or two teams, whatever, whatever it was, can't pick in the top 1, 2, 3, 4, X. And the idea would be the worst teams have to Keep trying because they don't want to be in disqualified from the number one pick. And the teams just above them also have to keep trying to beat those teams in head to head matchups because they want to keep them down where they can't get the number. It's just a way. There's a, there's a number of GMs who are like, we have to not just make losing less profitable, we have to make winning actually profitable. And maybe this is one way to do it. So these are the kind of ideas that are being kicked around and it's just going to be very interesting to see what this looks like in six, seven, eight years.
- [57:26]
B
I think that's good and I think that people are thinking of, you know, Mike Zarin came up years ago with the wheel where your draft choice would just be, you know, every 30 years, basically you'd get the first pick, the second pick, all these different years. It wouldn't have anything to do with your record. I think there's a lot of good ideas with it and I do think they're trying and I think that's a good thing. The other problem I have with the draft, quite honestly, is I just think it's unfair to rookies coming into the league. They don't get any choice of where they play and their salary is slotted in. They don't get to negotiate anything. And, and when we make those rules, they're not part of the union that even gets to vote on. I think it's very unfair labor practices, quite honestly, and I'm not for that. I think let them come out and negotiate their own contract in an open marketplace and have some choice on where they go. I mean, the kids coming out of law school don't get drafted by law firms and they have to go where they're told to go and move to that city or anything else. I mean, people have choice in all of these other professions. I don't like it. To me, I like the fact that all these proposals are interesting. I like the fact that they're trying to come up with an edge. But to me, the only one that really takes care of what I think are all the important issues is to just get rid of the draft. And I honestly don't understand the opposition to that.
- [59:06]
A
I'll let you just say your piece on that. I mean, it's complicated. I agree with you that it's unlikely to ever happen. It is a thought exercise that, to your point, deserves, I think, more time and work than it's gotten at the highest levels. Maybe the Doug Christie thing. The King's fouling was unbelievable. And it's like only the Kings. Only the Wizards. And I'll just let you. You don't have to say anything. It's. Only the Kings would have a def. Only the Kings defense would be our own stupidity. Like, that's like the. Only the Kings could have. Like, well, we're not tanking. We just made a horrendous mistake. And I know coaches lose track of timeouts and fouls and they have to be reminded because they have 9,000 things in their head. You see the trainers run up at the end of every quarter being like, we have a foul to give. We have no fouls to give. It happens. That was a weird one. Okay, let's take a quick break. Two more big questions for Sam Van Gundy. We'll keep it quick. This episode is brought to you by New Era. You know how some eras of the NBA just hit different as the official cap of the NBA? New Era is bringing back the good stuff with NBA Hardwood Classics collection. Vintage logos, timeless icons, killer throwback energy. No matter what hat style you prefer, New Era has them all. We're talking 5950 fitteds or adjustable styles like the 940A frames and 970s small sporting classics like the old school Vancouver Brizzlies, the Bulls, the Lakers. All this stuff that you remember from your childhood. If you're my age. Old school roots, modern drip. Visit neweracap.com to shop now and use one time code ringer for 20% off your first order. Exclusions apply. This episode is brought to you by taxact Taxes. Trust me, they sound far more complex than they actually are. And it's all thanks to TaxAct. They make it easy to do taxes online, offering step by step guidance so you can finish your taxes ahead of the April 15 deadline and get your maximum refund guaranteed. If you get stuck, just add expert assist. Get unlimited help from a credentialed U.S. based tax expert. Visit taxact.com to learn more. All right, two more coach. We'll keep these quick. I don't want to. I'm not going to have time to do the whole thing on this, but I thought you'd be a good person to ask. I think Paul Pierce started this on a podcast. No fouls given with Woz. My belly big was a few weeks ago. James Harden versus Dwyane Wade. Who had the better career? I think Paul Pierce started it and then it just exploded and became a huge. Why are we debating this? All of A sudden right now you coached against both of them and you coached one of them. Obviously it's an interesting, the shooting guard, all time rankings are super interesting behind Jordan. Where would you fall on this?
- [61:50]
B
Well, obviously I'm very biased, so I've got to be upfront about that. But I'll take Dwayne. I think my argument for Dwayne would
- [62:00]
A
be
- [62:03]
B
defensive end of the floor better than Harden. I think into the game I've said, and I've gotten a lot of pushback and I understand my bias the end of the game. There's no one in the history of the league I would rather have with the ball late in the game, last shot of the game, than Dwyane Wade. I think his, his record, his winning, I think his commitment to winning, I mean, he was willing to take the step back for LeBron to get a chance to win in a place where he'd already won a championship. And at the same time he was the dominant force in winning a championship. I'm not sure that anybody has ever had a better NBA Finals than Dwyane Wade did in 2006. He just absolutely took over. So I would take Dwayne and that's of no disrespect whatsoever to James Harden. And it's probably as much due to my bias for Dwayne as anything, but I would take Dwayne.
- [63:12]
A
So I did a deep dive yesterday for fun and I'm going to save the deep, deep dive. I think this is a good Bill topic too. And I came into the exercise just like you, like just snap judgment. Dwyane Wade, playoffs defense, championships vs. Harden's playoff record of underperformance. And then, you know, I've heard the argument like, well, when you actually look into it, it's pretty hard to make a case against James Harden. And that's actually true. So let me just make the case and then I'll make the other case. He has 6,000 more points now. The three point shot is going to skew this more and more and more as history goes on. The guys that played Dwayne Wade was not a three point shooter, although in the playoffs he suddenly became a much more viable one every year. And so the raw totals are going to be just skewed toward the guys who took threes and now took a lot of threes. Dwyane Wade never won the MVP, has two top five finishes, third and fifth. James Harden has an MVP and has 1, 2, 3, 4, 6 top five finishes, first, second, second, second, third and fifth. They've made the same number of all NBA teams. 8. But James Harden has six first team appearances. Dwyane Wade has two MVP vote totals. You know you can read and do whatever you want. Dwayne obviously had some health issues and Harden's been incredibly durable and so that will also boost the longevity stats. They do at least signify that for a pretty long period of time James was considered one of the three best or most valuable players in the league. Like that has to mean something. And then you know the scoring average is a little bit higher, the assists are higher, etc. And then you get to the playoffs and their stats are. They've played in almost the exact same number of playoff games. Wade played 172. Hardens at 173. Their stats are very are much more similar in the playoffs. And just defensively it's no competition. Dwayne's a three time all defense player. Finals MVP as you said. One of the greatest finals performances of all time. Another all time great finals performance and a loss in 2011. Three time champion. I still think it's Dwyane despite the statistical dossier and the MVP voting. I just think the playoffs and the defense and the playoffs swing it so dramatically that I still think Dwayne Wade has. I would pick his career over Harden's. That's all. I'll do a deeper dive but again
- [65:40]
B
you know I think anybody would be pretty happy to have either one of their careers in a lot of those arguments. When we get to the all time greats I will say to people you pick, I'll happily take second pick.
- [65:52]
A
Yeah the shooting guard ones because Jordan is Jordan and Kobe is so beloved and you know these players are. The shooting guards are like so different from each other. Like Dwayne and James Harden are. Are similar in some respects as like bigger playmakers or like whatever you want
- [66:10]
B
to call it is actually more of a point guard to me.
- [66:12]
A
Yeah more of a. More of a playmaker point guard. But they're like similar size, similar like physicality. Totally different in some other ways. Defensively three point shoots and then like Jerry West I think is just chronically underrated. In all of these all time great discussions including this one I would still take Dwayne away but I'm going to save the deeper dive for another day. Last big question with Stan Van Gundy. Who was your finals pick in October and what would it be now if you could erase that pick from the record and just repick.
- [66:41]
B
Well I, I don't really remember. I think I took Oklahoma City to win it. I'm pretty sure I did that. And I think I picked New York in the preseason to, to come out of the East. Would I. I'd still take Oklahoma City in the west and to win it and in the East. I don't know. I think I would take Boston right now, but I'm not really sure on that. I think the team that people have been disappointed in and have forgotten in the east that to me could still win it is Cleveland. You know, I think because their year has been a little bit disappointing, people have sort of written them off and they might do a, a little bit of a reverse on us. I think the last couple of years people have, they've had great regular seasons and people have been disappointed on them in the playoffs. I think they might flip that this year. But if I had to pick, I'd take Boston.
- [67:45]
A
So we unfortunately agree on all counts. Preseason I was Oklahoma City, New York and right now, if I had to redo it, I'd pick Oklahoma City over Boston. New York is still like they can still win the East? Absolutely. I thought their game against Atlanta the other day was important for them to finally it's first good win they've had in a long time. I thought it was interesting, just notable. Something to flag not for this matchup but for just in general. The Hawks guarded cat with their centers for almost the entire game and the Knicks ran the second most Brunson cat pick and rolls that they've run in any game this season. I think that's just. They have to just leverage that two man game a little bit more when it's handed to them that way. And I completely agree. I don't agree on Cleveland. I'm just fascinated by Cleveland. I'm watching every Cleveland game down the stretch start to finish now that Jared Allen is healthy, including last night potential first round preview between the Hawks and the Cavs because they just feel like a team that has said the Big Four has had so little time to play against to play with each other. And they still are like is Dwayne Dean Dwayne Wade? Is Dean Wade our fifth starter? Last night he was. And then they close with Max Stru in that spot. They've started Max Stru in that spot. When Wade's not been available, they'll throw Sam Merrill in that spot. And they sort of like they obviously are going to stagger Harden and Mitchell a lot of they're going to stagger Mobley and Allen a lot. It seems like they're trending in A direction where the staggering is becoming even more dramatic. Like they play as many minutes separately as they do together, both pairings. But some nights that's not going to be the right answer. Some nights it is going to be the right answer. It feels like they're trying to find themselves on a lot of different levels very late in the game. And that makes me a little bit like last night, that Hawks Cavs game. I don't know if you saw that game, but like Donovan Mitchell was barely involved in the offense in the first quarter and then in the third quarter sharing the court with Harden to open the quarter, he kind of came out and it looked like he had just said to himself, fuck it, this is still my team. I'm taking over the offensive when James is on the court and he went absolutely bananas and I was like, oh, that that's interesting. Their size against Atlanta, if that's the matchup, is kind of interesting. On the flip side, Atlanta's wing size against Cleveland's like army of guards is, is kind of an interesting leverage point for the Hawks. How the Cavs match up with the Hawks was interesting. They put their centers on Dyson Daniels like a lot of teams do and put wings on.
- [70:12]
B
Teams are doing that. Yeah, New York did that some the
- [70:15]
A
other day too and they put their wings on a congu and a congu actually posted up a few times and punished like Harden in the post and Donovan Mitchell in the post. There's a lot of interesting. But Cleveland, they do feel like the forgotten team among these four and I they're kind of a mystery to me and I don't know what to make of them. Their ceiling is clear. I would not pick them though. I'm not confident enough that they figured themselves out enough that I would pick them to win these.
- [70:41]
B
They would be my fourth or fifth choice because I agree with you that that Atlanta could beat them in the first round. Atlanta's good. I mean Atlanta's legit. Continually got better. They're good. Jalen Johnson, you know, to me is an all NBA guy. I have him on my second team, does a little bit of everything. Nikhil Alexander Walker's had an unbelievable year and A Kong was an interesting guy because he's a great offensive rebounder who's now added the three to his game big time. He's a little small, but yeah, I They're an interesting team and they're. What shocked me is not really shocked me. But their defense is legit now. I mean they can guard. I mean that backcourt with Daniels and Walker that that's as good a defensive backcourt as anybody, including Oklahoma City and San Antonio can put on the floor.
- [71:47]
A
It's, it's been a really good story. Their defense is, is been switchable and weird and hard to play against. They have a lot of different player combinations. They've been, they've been legit. I agree. Jalen Johnson's all NBA. I would pick Cleveland over them in the first round just because I think Cleveland has more offensive talent, more a, more like, more easy answers on offense than I think Atlanta does. But Atlanta has proven like they're a legit threat to win a first round series if that's the series, especially if that's the series that they get. And interesting last night that they bench Risache. That's, that's one thing they played Kispert and Kaminga. Kispert hadn't played the previous game and Kaminga played a lot. Just interesting to watch as they still try to find themselves. But yeah, they're, they're legit. Quinn Snyder's done a hell of a job sort of putting together a team that makes sense for a roster that doesn't appear from like a 30,000 foot view to make a ton of sense. And it does. And he's done a great job. All right, Stan, you're calling Nick Celtics tonight, right?
- [72:50]
B
Absolutely. You know, the Celtics have four of their starters. Everybody but Tatum listed as questionable. So we'll see who shows up in
- [73:00]
A
that time of year.
- [73:01]
B
Plays tonight. That's always, when you do these games, that's always the catch a little bit. But Tatum's going to play, so that'll be interesting. Returning to the scene of his injury, he said that it's. He sort of feels weird about it and so I think to get it done before the playoffs is important. You know, his return has just been. It's incredible. I mean, I've seen guys go through it. Not just to come back, that was one thing. But then to be at the level he's been at, particularly over the last six games, playing 35 minutes a game, averaging 25 points and 11 rebounds and five insists. And I mean he's just shooting the ball well in 10 months. I mean it's mind boggling and I think a lot of people deserve a lot of credit. His trainer, the medical team and his motivation to get to where he's at because we've seen him right guys come back off of those things. It's not just how long it takes them to get back, but it's how long it takes them from that point to be playing back at their former level. And he's already done that. Plus he's just come in and fit in seamlessly like they have just rolled on. I mean, with him in there, it hasn't looked the least bit clunky or anything else. I mean, amazing job by everyone involved there, all the players, Tatum, Joe Missoula, the medical staff, everybody. Phenomenal how this has all come to fruition.
- [74:33]
A
It's the best story of the season and a reminder that the NBA always surprises you more than you think it would be. Think about Oklahoma City. 241 all of the all of the discourse A lot of the discourse was the NBA is doomed for the next five years. It's over. They're going to get the Clippers picked. They're going to win 73 games. Look how young they are. It's just, oh my God, what are we going to do? And now Oklahoma City might still win the title. Like Oklahoma City, fully healthy with this version of AJ Mitchell and Caruso unleashed and all that may just roll in a way they didn't roll last year. We'll see. But even so, the next five years. I mean, I was always saying, like, things change faster than you think. Guys get hurt, guys get traded. The salary cap comes into play. Next five years. Now it's the spurs that everyone is terrified about. Boston's back. The NBA always surprised you in the best part of the season is coming up. Stan Van Gundy. It's just been so awesome to listen to you where we're kind of teammates on Amazon. It's been so fun in that regard, too. Absolutely. The best in the business, sees everything in real time, tells you what's going on. Funny, entertaining. It's wonderful to have you. Now go do your actual job, coach.
- [75:41]
B
All right. Thanks, Zach.
- [75:44]
A
All right, that's it this week for the Zach Lowe Show. Thanks to the great Stan Van Gundy. Thanks to Mike, Billy and Jonathan on production. As always, thanks to you all for listening to and or watching the Zach Lowe Show. We'll be back next week. As usual, I'll be on Bill's podcast this Sunday night. Going into the playoffs, we're going to talk about some of the most interesting players in the playoffs, the play in, whatever you want to talk about. So that's all coming up. Thanks again for listening and watching. 21 or over and President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over in President, D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MY RESET. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat and connecticut or is it mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland? Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPENY or text HOPENY in New York. For Louisiana, call 1-877-770-78672.
- [76:53]
C
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