B (3:19)

Yes.

A (3:20)

The lakers move to 7:2 by squeaking out a win over the San Antonio spurs despite LeBron being out again. LeBron, according to Shams today, is ramping up into full contact basketball and will be reevaluated again in one or two weeks. He should be looking at this Howard Beck seven and two like this is a dream. I shouldn't be cranky about any of this. We'll get to that part of it.

B (3:44)

Ramping up was my favorite NBA thing to do, by the way. I love ramping up.

A (3:47)

They edge the spurs who dropped to five and two despite Marcus Smart stepping over the boundary line on an inbounds pass over the baseline and giving the Spurs a chance to tip the game in, which almost happened. And then there was a foul. Then there was a missed free throw by Champagne. Was just absolute wild finish. One of two of these games that ended with an intentionally missed foul shot. And Wemby second straight game. A little quiet, a little smother, a little bit in a straight jacket. So that's your choice. Number one. Number two. The Dallas Mavericks now tied for last in the Western Conference at 2, 6 losing at home to the also 2 and 6 New Orleans Pelicans. Credit to them. I thought Willie Green was a dead man walking after that loss in Oklahoma City where the whole team looked like it had just quit. They've won two in a row. They're 2 and 6, Dallas dead last in offense. Cooper Flagg misses a pretty open floater to tie the game. Trey Murphy gets an insane out of nowhere rebound to save the game. For the Pelicans, Derrick Queen played all right. Jose Alvarado played all right. And we have a burgeoning issue in Dallas. While Luca just continues to put up triple doubles for the Lakers. That's two choice number three. The Thunder lose. It happened. It required them sitting half of their team, including Jalen Williams again is his all NBA candidacy continues to drip, drip, drip away. He's got to get to 65 games. The Blazers sneak one out over Oklahoma City. That's the other game that ended in a missed free throw on purpose by Isaiah Joe. I think after a three shot, what looked like a three shot foul at the buzzer, but was not. AJ Mitchell. Another big game. Denny Avdia, I know he's one of your breakout player candidates. Another monster game. The guy just gets to the line, gets to the rim, dunks on people. He's hitting his threes. And on the flip side, the Nets win a game. The Brooklyn Nets, despite Cam Thomas going out with a hamstring injury, remember that hampered him at the end of last year, beat the pacers in the NBA's depressing bowl. What a depressing watch. The Nets get their first win. A grand total of one of their five first round draft picks appeared in the game. Jagor Joman, I think we're going with now played a total Joman 13 minutes, took five threes, did take a two. 31 of his 36 shots so far this season have been threes. That's a little strange. He made none of those shots last night. Noah Clowney, maybe the best game of his career. And Pascal Siakam, someone send that. Do some flowers, man. Send him some candy. Send him whatever his favorite treats are. I don't think anyone in the league is carrying a heavier burden right now than Pascal Siakam, including Giannis. And then the game I was at. The New York Knicks run roughshod over the Minnesota Timberwolves in Anthony Edwards return from injury. Ant looked a little tentative. 15 points on 5 of 13 shooting. The Knicks poured in a thousand points. And of the fourth best offense in the NBA, the Minnesota Timberwolves, 27th in defense. A very strange 4 and 4 start to their season. Looking like a team who may. Yeah, well, it's a little early. It's a little early but the guard rotation has been in the crosshairs for a while. They have no picks to trade unfortunately, but just something to monitor. Howard Beck, which of those games is most interesting to you?

B (6:56)

Boy, that's a lot.

A (6:58)

I even still a lot happened last night. A lot happened last Night I stayed.

B (7:01)

Up late for that crazy ass Lakers finish. Mark is smart, always an adventure. Fun to have him in LA where those adventures might mean something in any number of directions. I think out of all that, I hate to go negative here, but I'm going to do it. I'm. I'm going with the Mavericks as my, my pick to start off with here and not so much about the game, but just about where they are. There was some, I thought, strangely hyperbolic, hyperventilating hype around them coming into the season, as if they could be. They could be some sort of dark horse because people are so, so, so high on Cooper Flag. And you know, there was, I think, just a sense like this is a veteran team and yeah, they got to wait for Kyrie to get back, but they can hold down the fort for a while. They've got pieces. Whatever. I didn't understand it. I was down in the Mavis from the beginning. I know you guys did the. You and Bill did the over under show a few weeks back. I think I definitely would have gone under on Dallas if I were doing the exercise. And the reason I'm picking them for this is of all the teams that are off to rough starts, most of them were expected, maybe a little rougher than expected. The Pacers have just been so banged up, right? But the Nets were supposed to suck. The Wizards were supposed to suck. Pelicans are another alarming one. But of all the teams that are off to really bad starts, Dallas is the one that there are potential consequences behind. Most of these teams are in some state of disrepair or rebuild. The Mavericks are supposed to be contending or comp. Or at least competing at a very high level, Kyrie's injury notwithstanding. And the, the. Just the utter contrast between where the Mavericks are right now, Zach, and what Luca's doing and what the surprising Lakers are doing. Having Austin Reeves breaking out while Luka was out and LeBron's still out. The contrast just makes it that much more uncomfortable. This is not going away. I didn't expect it was anyway, but it just ain't going away. And it's getting worse by the day. And I can just see where the fan discontent and the, the just the. The backlash, it's going to just spark again. I think there was this kind of hope like, like Cooper Flag winning the lottery from the 11th slot papered this over temporarily. There was something to be happy about for a moment, and there will be in the future because Cooper Flag will eventually be a very good player. But right now they're miserable. And yes, Lively's missed a bunch of games and Gafford's missed games, and Anthony Davis is missing games. There's a shocker. Their only wins are over the Pacers, who are one in seven. And Toronto, they're last in offensive efficiency. Imagine, Zach, what the tone of things would be in. In Dallas in that arena, if they hadn't gotten Cooper Flag. They were slotted 11th before the lottery, that the 11th pick ended up being Cedric Coward, which would have been a nice pick, but not. Not the same in terms of making you feel better about the direction of your franchise. So. And all the. Everything that they're going through was predictable, right? Not enough shock creation. Well, there's a shocker. Roster is completely imbalanced toward the front court. Anthony Davis has heard again. Clay is old. D' Angelo Russell's on his fourth team in four seasons. Like, what did you expect? Like this. None of this should be that surprising, but they obviously had higher expectations than this. So that's where I'm looking right now. Just because I think this is one where you have to keep an eye on everything because everyone's seat's gonna get hot.

A (10:36)

Are you saying that you don't see the vision?

B (10:38)

I do. I do not see the vision. I was just at the eye doctor last week and my vision is. Okay. I am not seeing the Mavericks vision.

A (10:51)

I mean, I took the under on Dallas at 40 and a half. I thought about it because I do think there's something to the idea of being this gargantuan rebounding defense machine. And you figured Kyrie will come back at some point in the year. We'll get to that. I just didn't trust the offense. It's. There's too many big guys, too little guards, too little shot creation, and you just see, it's like handoff, handoff. You dribble over there, you dribble. It's all east, west, east, west until someone's got to create something. And Cooper could do a little bit of that. You know, he could do a little bit of everything on offense. He's just not elite quite yet. At. At beating mismatches in either size direction or creating off the pick and roll or shooting jump shots because people go under. He's just. He's a rookie. He's 18 years old. AD Being hurt. Not a surprise. I. I went through his game logs, his game totals for the last five seasons. It was number one reason I picked the under, because I just thought if he's. If he plays what he normally plays. The margin for error gets very slim. Kyrie being hurt. They knew Kyrie was hurt. They knew Kyrie was going to miss a huge part of the season. They addressed it by doing almost nothing at guard, unless you count d' Angelo Russell. All of this stuff was known, but you throw In Lively's injury, AD's injury, Gafford starts the season injured. They've got nothing out of Klay Thompson, nothing out of Jaden Hardy, nothing out of Caleb Martin. Shout out Max Christie. Yeah, he's playing really nice brand all around basketball, both ends of the floor, doing a little bit more off the dribble. But like, I just didn't think they would be that good to begin with. I didn't think they'd be 30th in offense. They don't take any threes, they don't offensive rebound, they don't really get to the rim all that often for a huge team. They have no offensive identity at all because they do not have guard play that anyone has to really respect. And they can sit here and hide behind, well, we're just waiting on Kyrie and poof, everything will be fine. And, and they would be a much better team if they had all star, all NBA level Kyrie Irving. I don't think they could have reasonably have expected to have all star, all NBA Kyrie Irving this season coming off a knee injury whenever he comes back next season. Okay, maybe that's what they're playing for next season. I've said that before. They strike me more of a next season team than this season team. But the trade is just going to be inescapable. You had a proven finals level team even last year when they were healthy. Now you could say, well, Luka would never have gotten in shape in Dallas, so he couldn't coax him to do it. He was never going to be healthy. And you took this gigantic risk, shrinking your championship window to AD's age curve and Kyrie's age curve. And this was always the downside waiting for them. I just don't know how they construct a really great workable offense out of any of this. And it's, it's just going to get louder and louder. The better the Lakers play as long as Luca keeps up this pace. And it's just, I don't know what else to say. The team, the team as constructed, is not good enough to do anything in the West. The team as constructed with an expected lottery outcome and Kyrie still being injured is like a disaster on wheels in the wake of the Luca trade and they're just lucky that they got Cooper flag. Yeah, that's, that's. That was a good place to start.

B (14:05)

Um, two quick other thoughts. Jason Kidd last week oddly kind of teased the possibility of Kyrie coming back before the end of the calendar year. This despite the fact that I think it was like on media day or sometime in the run up to the season where Jason Kidd had said, I I don't want to put expectations on the timing or when he's going to come back because he didn't want to put that pressure on him. So I don't know if that's Jason Kidd now just like reaching for any shred of optimism just to keep the Wolves at bay. I don't know. I looked at their schedule coming up, Zach. Cause it's going to get worse before it gets better. If it gets better. Their next eight games at Memphis, at Washington, like those are two struggling teams though they've already lost to Washington and then home against Milwaukee, Phoenix, the Clippers, Portland, who are playing very well, and then at Minnesota and then home against the Knicks. That's not an easy stretch. The next eight. And then they close out the month with a four game trip to Miami, Lakers, Clippers, Nuggets, which is actually on December 1st. By December 2nd, that's 14 games from now, they might already be toast. They might win four of the next 14, leaving them at like six and 16. Like they're. This thing could be over by, you know, long before Christmas. Yeah, there you go.

A (15:22)

We should, we should also mention Zion was out for the Pelicans. He's going to be reevaluated for some, you know, hamstring. I think something, something Zioni in. In a week.

B (15:30)

A hamstring, which a hamstring on him is always a hamstring on anybody's concerning. Hamstring on Zion is going to be.

A (15:35)

Very concerning, I will say. Like in the Pelicans defense, Fears has looked pretty good all season. Not, not so much last night. He was a little bit of an afterthought last night. Sadiq Bay had a great game with Sadiq Bay, who they got in the Jordan pool trade. Jordan Poole was also out last night. I didn't like that trade. Didn't really understand the point of it. But Sadiq Bay, I've always been a fan of. He looked good. Derrick Queen looked pretty good. Has looked at his best and most workable on offense, playing center with mostly shooters around him. Defensively he's got a ways to go, but I'm not sure he'll ever be like a rim protector of any repute, but he. He sees the game. Okay. I don't know what happens to him when Zion is back and Looney gets to play more minutes and how they split all that up. But yeah, on Dallas, I don't.

B (16:20)

I don't.

A (16:20)

I mean, it. It's just never going away. I'm sorry to tell them it's never. It's never going away. Can we. Can we pivot to the Laker spurs game since you saw that?

B (16:30)

Yes.

A (16:33)

Lakers 7 and 2, fifth in offense despite LeBron not playing. Reeves missing games. Lucas missed a couple games. A few games and 18th in defense. That's about their formula to be a dangerous, dangerous team. Is elite offense just good enough defense? Ayton, my guy, DeAndre. And I told you I had faith in DeAndre. And I told you it was going to work. It's working.

B (16:56)

I have been as skeptical as you have been. Optimistic. And every time I see a game like that, I'm like, yep, Zach, Zach. Zach might have been under something if.

A (17:03)

You can't be an effective rim running center because he's got skill with these two, with these guys feeding them the ball. I don't need to belabor it. I'm just taking my DeAndre in. Victory laps. No, before. Before the victory lap turns into, like the part of the steeple chase where I hit the hurdle and fall into the water and everything goes horrible. That's what. What kind of event is the steeplechase? I got. I'm jumping over water all of a sudden.

B (17:26)

Absolute insanity.

A (17:29)

LeBron's got to be looking at this. Look, he was. They did not hide his discontent. Maybe too strong of a word. His ambivalence toward the Lakers direction building around Luka Doncic. And now I think you have to say the Luka Doncic Austin Reaves pairing. What does that mean for him? Is the team trying hard enough to win now? That was the implication of Rich Paul's statement was that they're on this future timeline that doesn't fit LeBron well, hey, now they're seven and two. They got these two. Two elite ball handlers. This should be the absolute perfect situation for going on freaking 41 years old. LeBron James. I don't want to hear any more passive aggressive stuff. I don't want to hear any more mysterious tweets. I don't want to read any of it. Don't come back. Play. Play really hard. Play really well. Because this team could be very dangerous if you're engaged and on And I think you will be. Now, what happens after this season? I know people at the Cavs are looking around like, you want to do a retirement tour. I know people at the warriors are looking around like, hey, you want to fulfill that dream over here, Dallas? That was a rumored one. We'll see what happens. But. And of course, Wemby was kind of contained for the second straight game. I want to shout out Rui Hachimura, just always a helpful dude to have around. And they did the thing that more teams are going to do where they guarded Wemby with Hachimura with a power forward or a wing and put their centers, in this case on Harrison Barnes and then Jeremy Sohan who just came back. And I think between that, between San Antonio's lack of spacing, between teams just going all in, like, we're not going to let Victor get off. More teams are going to go. So go back to that look. And this was a game where you felt, I think for the first time all season, oh, yeah, de' Aaron Fox is like waiting to come back. Dylan Harper's hurt. De' Aaron Fox is waiting to come back. There's a whole bunch of spoon fed buckets for Victor, pick and roll stuff that is coming. But I thought it was an interesting game and I'm hard not to be impressed with the Lakers. Anyone else you want to shout out?

B (19:22)

No. That was a really fun game. I was there on opening night because we did have core week out in LA for the ringer, which you were sadly missed at. So I was there for opening night for the Lakers and their second home game as well. And there was a lot of murmuring in our cynical little press gaggle of like, LeBron's just pretty stone faced over there on the bench. And, you know, it's the first time, it's the opening of a new season, months after Rich Paul's statement that you alluded to. And so everybody's going to be focused on him. And I won't say which of our colleagues was doing this, but one of our colleagues had binoculars specifically to look at the Laker benchmark just to see what was going on over there, body language wise. And between that, Ayton had, I think, kind of a rough night that night. Marcus Smart looked really clunky that night. And so it's one of those, like two quick snapshots you could take where it's like, oh, you know, LeBron's not happy. The off season pickups aren't looking all that great. Flash forward, you know, a couple Weeks here, and Marcus Smart drew two of the three offensive fouls that Wemby picked up last night. Marcus Smart nearly screwed the game with, with the play you alluded to earlier, the inbounds. But Marcus Smart's looking okay, functional, and Jake Larivia has been great. And as you point out your, your guy DeAndre Hayton's looking all right. The off season looking pretty good at the moment. LeBron much more engaged. That was the last piece of this, like the LeBron. The last couple times I've watched Laker games, he's, he's like, he's into it now and you gotta think he recognizes as self conscious as he is, you have to think he recognizes. One, everyone's watching me in every little, you know, facial tick. Two, this is where we are and this is good for him. Like, I, I hate doing the, like, Kareem Magic at the end of Kareem's career thing, but like, at age 41, you should want to have a guy or two in this case possibly who can take on a lot of that load and not have to, to do, to do all the heavy lifting that he's done over the course of his career. This is ideal for him at this stage of his career. And I said it even in, in, in June, July, when we were talking about, you know, Rich Paul statement and the, the option pickup and all that, like, what better situation was there going to be if he had decided to opt out and just pick his spot or if he was trying to force an unlikely trade? Like where, like where are you going? You're going to get a better teammate than Luca in the first place. He's one of the best players in the world. So, yeah, very curious to see how the ramping up goes the next couple of weeks and when LeBron comes back, what kind of. I want to say what kind of role he plays, because I don't mean to say he's a role player. I want to see how he reintegrates himself.

A (22:13)

It's going to be interesting. Just like it's been very interesting to watch Joel Embiid, who looks like. And we're going to get, I'll get to him more later, but looks like 70% of peak Joel Embiid, that's not necessarily a bad thing. He's coming back from a long injury absence. He's feeling his way back into being comfortable with physical play and all that. But it was so interesting against the Bulls a couple of games ago for the Sixers to watch him kind of give the Offense at the end of the game to Maxi and even Edgecomb. There was one sequence, I don't know if you saw it, where he, Edgecomb ran a pick and roll with Embiid and they got a switch. So Vuchevic was on Edgecomb and some guard, I can't remember who was on Embiid. And Edgecombe passed it to Embiid like, hey, man, take, take. You got a huge size advantage. Like, do your Joel Embiid thing. Beat the crap out of him. And Embiid was like, hey, boom, boom. Back to you, Vijay. You just take Vuch off the dribble, man. You can roast that dude. Vijay was like, no, back to you, Joel. And they just played hot potato with the ball. And at the end of the game, Joel spent a lot of the offense in the corner, like in the corner like Danny Green or something, while Maxi ran guard, guard, pick and rolls with Grimes trying to get mismatches, trying to get little holes opened in the defense. Like, okay, he's sort of like, is this a real time transfer of power? Is this passive aggressive? Is this Embiid? Just recognizing his current physical and whatever limitations. It was just very interesting. Not that LeBron is going to play that way, but Luca and Reeves have proven enough individually, obviously Luca has. And in tandem working together on the floor that there is just no argument for. LeBron gets to run 50 pick and rolls a game. It's not that like he was doing that last year with Luka either, but this is set. Some screens cut, slot cut, like that 45 degree cut that scal was talking about the other day on NBC. Post up mismatches, reserve more of your energy for defense and rebounding. Initiate fast breaks for a team that probably needs to run more like it's right there for him. I took the over on the Lakers. I think the Lakers are really good. I think the Lakers, it gets tiring to say, have the same problem that almost every other team in the west, other than maybe Denver has, is that Oklahoma City and Denver are just so goddamn good that winning three playoff series is going to be tough. Let's move to Oklahoma City real fast. You ready?

B (24:26)

Yeah.

A (24:28)

Just real quickly on that game. By the way, you were right to shout out Laravia. He's been a perfect connector for the Lakers. Portland ends the undefeated run for Oklahoma City. I don't have much more to say about that game other than I. It's a joy watching both of these teams play. It's a joy watching Oklahoma City play even without Jdub and Chet and Dort and some other guy. Caruso was also out. Hartenstein's been awesome all season. Big Jalen Williams has been playing really well all season. Aaron Wiggins has been playing even better than he was last season. AJ Mitchell's gotten all the attention. I know he's one of your breakout player candidates. Everyone on this team is playing so well. And Portland just even without Scoot, without Blake, Wesley, without Thibel, they're just a tenacious, fun defensive team. And then I don't know. Did you catch any of the indie Brooklyn game?

B (25:15)

I did not. I've, I've watched almost as much Nets as I can possibly tolerate at this early stage of the season. I thought it was really alarming. One quick note on the Nets because I was there the other night and, and popped into Jordy Fernandez's pre game. There was a question posed to him. I think it was after, just maybe it was after the loss to Philly. And so it was the next night and he's, he's been being asked about like you know, when you're, when things are starting to come apart like who are you relying on out there? Because you know last year you had Cam Johnson and you had Dennis Schroeder, you had some veterans like who is it now? And my, my antenna went up. Very curious to see how Jordy and Fernandez enters this. They've got know, five rookies and a bunch of young guys and you know, Nick Claxton still hanging out. Michael Porter Jr. Not exact a veteran, but not exactly the kind of veteran you want your guys following. And so I was curious to see what his answer would be. Normally a coach is going to have somebody, right? Oh, you know, well you know, when we're in huddles or you know, when you know in practice, this guy, you'll name somebody who is like the rally the troops guy or pull everybody together guy. It doesn't have to be your best player. He basically just gave a general kind of oh no, we got guys like yeah, there are, you know, the leadership's there, you know and I just thought it's very interesting. There's not a single, you didn't have a single name to mention as even just kind of a, a stopgap measure here just to get the question out of your like and I thought like if you look at their roster like yeah, it's kind of self evident. You look at it like there really is not only is there no true offensive hub to play off of, to format around, there really isn't personality wise anybody to kind of lead or stabilize that group either.

A (26:50)

Cam Thomas is averaging 21 points a game. He's only shooting 40%. But. But if he's out for any extended period of time, and we're recording this in the afternoon, no news has broken on his hamstring yet. It's just going to be ugly, man. Every. Every. Every attempt at creating a shot is going to be ugly. Last night's game was very ugly. And they have. Jordy proofed this roster this year. He cannot coach up this team to 25 wins by accident.

B (27:19)

Not going to blow the tank again.

A (27:20)

Claxton's been all right. Michael Porter Jr. Has been all right. Highsmith hasn't played. He's another veteran presence. But, like, it just has to be a little disconcerting for. As raw as all of these rookies are on both ends of the floor, but particularly sort of as scoring threats. A lot of great passers among the rookies, but. But as scoring threats, I mean, like, no one is playing Joman to. To shoot. Everyone's playing him to pass. Yeah, it's. It's got to be disconcerting that in a year in which you, You. It's. It's disconcerting to simultaneously tank and not even play your young players, your rookies, like, they're playing young players, but not the five guys you just drafted. So we're trying. We're not trying to win, but also, we don't think these guys are even ready to participate heavily in games in which we're not really trying to win.

B (28:09)

I asked multiple people over the course of a couple of nights of home games at Barclays, you know, I'll just say others who were in the building, who were not affiliated with the Nets, who's. Who's the best prospect they got? Like, if you're. If you're just looking up and down the roster like, oh, they've been five, five rookies, bunch of young guys over the last couple of years, like, who's the best prospect here? And I just got these, like, long pauses and deep stares off into the distance.

A (28:35)

But they're all raw. They're all raw and power injured. And Tror has barely played. Like, they knew this going in, but they're not even trying to win, and they can't play these guys. Jory's like, you're not even ready to get on the floor. Danny Wolf, like, I know you've been injured. He's now available. They don't even play these guys.

B (28:50)

If you're in a rebuild and a tear down a tank and you've already accumulated a bunch of young guys. Opposing teams should at least have some answer of like, you know what? I'm intrigued by X. I'm intrigued by this guy. There was not even that. There was. There really was kind of a like a just a, like I said, a blank stare. There's nobody on the nets. That even is really intriguing anybody on rival teams right now. That's a little alarming.

A (29:18)

This episode is sponsored by Anthropic, the team behind Claude. Have you ever wondered how something will affect a player's legacy? Probably then you spiral comparing era adjusted stats and wondering if context actually matters more than championships. That's where Claude comes in asking follow up questions and giving you the kind of debate that actually gets somewhere. Because great insight comes from back and forth when someone challenges your assumptions until you find something that actually holds up. Try Claude for free at Claude. AI Low the conceit of the rest of this podcast was going to be is going to be. I I wanted you to pick and I also picked four. I, I don't want to do breakout candidates. I wanted to do sort of like I, I called it the Josh Giddey line. It's got to be someone whose stature in the league is below Josh Giddey. And the idea was fine, like not obvious burgeoning all stars, but four guys who you just want to like shout out like this guy's excelling in his role. He's doing really well. Could be a very good player. Could be like a eighth man and then two such players that are slightly disappointing. In that vein, I, I forgot to mention a couple of guys from Spurs, Lakers. I just want to mention their names. Stefan Castle. Awesome. The guy looks like he's jumping off a freaking trampoline. He was guarding Luka. I love Stefan Castle guy I'd like to see a little bit more of for the Spurs. These are neither of my picks because I didn't want to pick these guys from these games that we're going to discuss. Like to see a little more from Devin Vassell on both ends of the floor. That's all. That's all I'm gonna say. Okay. Should we. Before we get into that.

B (30:52)

Yeah.

A (30:53)

A couple of news and notes. Bam. Out of bio left last night's Miami. Who the hell did Miami play? There were so many games last night. Somebody in the Western Conference. They lost and he left the game with a foot injury. I think the Heat have been one of the fun early season storylines. Just watching them reinvent the way they play. Bam has been good. Offensively, not great. I think sensational. Defensively, sensational on the glass. If he's out for any extended period of time, the whole complexion of the season changes for Miami. They'll try and compete because that's what they do. They'll start Khalil Ware in his place. You know, they've got guys, including some breakout slash disappointment candidates we'll talk about, but that would be devastating. Also devastating thoughts with Eric Spoelstra. If people haven't seen the news, a home that reportedly belongs to him burned down in Miami earlier today. And last thing, Walker Kessler, season ending shoulder surgery after. Not really. I don't even think getting close to coming to terms on an extension with the Jazz. Had been playing by far the best of his career, particularly offensively. He was shooting threes. He was dishing in more assists than normal. Just much more involved. Um, what do you think this means for. I. I don't know if it's like some sort of disaster for Walker Kessler. I. I don't. I mean, obviously if he kept playing the way he was playing, he would have come in with a lot of leverage. I think you can all assume, like, that's about where he's going to be. It hurt. It hurts. It hurts his free agency for sure. I think it's more interesting to think about, like, what does this mean for the Jazz? Does this change their approach to the season at all? Does it make it more likely that they trade Lowry, Markkanen and just say we're. I mean, we were already kind of hopeless, but now we're officially like, stamped as hopeless? I. I don't know that it does really anything but. What were your thoughts?

B (32:47)

Yeah, I mean, this part doesn't change for me as the outsider looking in and as I will always caveat these discussions. Easy for me to say, but I've always been of the opinion for the last couple of years that they should be trading marketing. And then it was taken off the table last year after they did the big extension and, you know, then he couldn't be traded before the trade deadline. And then the off season was the time to that and they still didn't do it. I felt like the Jazz felt the spent the too long after blowing it up after trading Donovan Mitchell and Rudy Gobert. They spent too long kind of straddling the fence saying, like, we're.

A (33:23)

We're.

B (33:23)

You know, marketing gets there and suddenly turns into an all Star. The good times are rolling and, you know, for fans who had to Deal with losing their two stars and a rebuild. Hey, maybe, you know, maybe we're. This isn't a full tear down. Maybe we're competitive for a while and the fans are enjoying it. Let's not mess around. Let's keep Jordan Clarkson, let's keep all the other veterans around, Colin Sexton, all these guys. And they held onto that too long. And then last year they veered the other direction and actually got fined for making up fake injuries for Larry Markkanen so that they could actually tank. If there was ever a time to fully, fully, fully embrace the tank, it's now. Like I think it should have been anyway. But Walker Kessler being out for the season gives you the absolute out. Ah, you know what? We tried. We did. We had a nice cool, big front court going for a while and we were competitive and things that. Things were looking too bad. Walker Kessler's out for the season. We're not going to win anyway. And they weren't going to win anyway, period. But I think it gives them a little bit of COVID to do the thing that they probably are going to do and should be doing anyway. Larry Martinez is 28 years old. He's 29 in May. By the time this team is relevant again, two years, three years, four years. It takes a long time to dig out of the, the cellar in the NBA. He's gonna be like, in his early 30s. It'll be like 32, 33 years old. Like, those are wasted years for him. He absolutely should be traded for his sake, for their sake. I. It was funny because I started looking at, like, spots I wasn't. I didn't start doing fake trades. I just started looking at, like, likely candidates, like who. Who could use him. It's fewer than you think. It's like it's. Or finding the right fit is fewer than you think. Just based on.

A (35:05)

Yeah, I've already done all the marketing.

B (35:07)

Yeah.

A (35:07)

Fake trades. Including the team the Jazz lost to last night, the Detroit Pistons.

B (35:12)

Yeah. Michael Pino's favorite trade spot for marketing.

A (35:15)

I think. I think the Jazz think they're closer to being relevant again than you do. And they. Maybe even I do. And I think what they would say, and I've seen this tweeted by a few people, is like, well, you know, Markkanen's only. What did you say, 28. Something like that.

B (35:31)

28? Yeah. 29 in May.

A (35:32)

Keonte George is a guy who's clearly. He looks like a completely different player on both ends so far. He might be a guy.

B (35:38)

Yeah.

A (35:39)

Got some Other young guys, Kessler, rock solid, probably above average starting center or league average, at least starting center. You throw in the number one or two pick in this coming draft and a bunch of cap space that, yeah, we're not going to get the marquee guys, but we can get some other guys that are good. At some point we could zoom towards competition pretty fast without compromising the sort of timeline of the George, all the young Taylor Hendricks, all the young guys they have now, plus whoever they draft. And like, that all sounds good. And I believe that that's exactly what Austin Ainge and Danny Age and Justin Zanucks should say to any team who calls about Lowry, Markkanen. And there's, there is actually, you know, some truth to that. Sometimes these things do change sort of faster than you think. However, it doesn't take that long for you to remember where the Jazz entered last year's lottery and where they ended up picking. So this idea like, oh yeah, you just had Peterson or DeBance. So like, that's not how the lottery works anymore. I don't know how many more years we have to have of this before you stop penciling in the number one and number two pick in November. And number two, I just don't care what they say privately or publicly. If a team comes to them with a good marketing offer, I just think the Jazz are going to take it. And I think that for any number of reasons, I just. But we'll see if it's not. If it's not. We've seen Danny Ainge before hold out for the motherload. And if they don't get the mother load, if they get something 10% less than that, they can, I guess, lean into this vision. I'll just believe it when I see it.

B (37:08)

The good news for them or any other team down the standings is like the warriors are in their twilight of their twilight, right? So they're like the, the time is coming soon where the warriors, instead of us all penciling him, them in as top five, top six, whatever, in that, that tier below the Thunder and Nuggets, like the warriors time is, is coming to a close. The Clippers have lined it all up to intentionally have this all be coming to a close in, in 2027 when everybody comes off the books. So there's some teams that are going to fall. The Lakers were going to be part of that for a while there and then they got Luca. So now they're not going anywhere probably.

A (37:42)

How Luca. That's weird.

B (37:44)

I. Strange, right? I don't. I Don't even know how that happened. I woke up one day and he was there. The Nuggets aren't going anywhere. The spurs are a team on the rise. The Rockets aren't going anywhere. So, like, I always look at, like, if you're, if you're on the fence about like. Well, we can lean into the. The Vets that we have as the Jazz or we can lean into the. The tear down and, and just keep piling on and just, you know, plan for three or four years from now. I know it's a. That's a good, really a really long window, but like, sometimes you got to look at who's ahead of you, all the immovable objects. Where. When are we breaking back into this field with so many teams ahead of us, most of which should. Should remain there for a while. So. No, for whatever that's worth.

A (38:23)

Yeah. I just don't think they want to be abysmal like this. I think they'd be fine. Like we're a play in. We're competing for a play in spot. Sure. Next year. By the way, you know who Larry Marketing reminds me of? I was just this, just this image just popped into my head as you were saying his name, and I can't stop thinking about it now. Did you ever see the Movie Top secret? 1984. Top secret. Oh, yeah, the guy. The guy. Yeah, the guy with the. Not Val Kilmer, but I can't role. He even plays.

B (38:48)

He's like the German resistance or something.

A (38:50)

I think his name is Nigel in the movie. For the young people who have not seen Top Secret, one of the most criminally underrated spoof comedies in the whole sort of Zucker, Zucker Abrams universe of airplane movies and Naked Gun. I just, every time I look at Larry Mark and I just think of that dude from Top. I can't even remember if he's a good guy or a bad guy.

B (39:10)

I just have one question. How do we know he's not Mel Torme?

A (39:15)

I don't even remember that line. That's from Top Secret.

B (39:17)

Yeah. And then I think Mel Torme shows up. In fact, he becomes Mel Torme. Okay, so really, that's a really old man joke, by the way. That was an old man joke. When we were young and that movie was out. Mel Torme was already an old man joke.

A (39:30)

That movie also has one of my favorite. Not quite. Not quite as. As pristine as Rushmore's joke about. Oh, are they. I mean, when he's in his OR scrubs. Oh, are they. My favorite joke of all time in a movie when there's a coughing heard off screen. And, like, someone says, like, what's wrong with whoever's coughing over there? And there's a woman that says, oh, he's just a little horse. And it's actually a miniature horse that's coughing just to. Just a little horse. Okay, we really.

B (40:02)

I will just. Have you. Wait, have you. Have you shown your daughter any of those movies? I finally showed secret.

A (40:08)

My daughter's 10 years old.

B (40:09)

There's a whole scene in that movie.

A (40:11)

When they're at the ballet and one of the dancers jumps off people's penises. One ballet dancer's penis to another. No, I'm not showing that movie.

B (40:19)

Too soon for that.

A (40:20)

But when.

B (40:20)

During lockdown when my daughter was like, 14, 13, 14. We did show her Naked Gun and the first airplane movie. And she, to my great delight, freaking love them. So have you seen the new Naked Gun? Put those on the list.

A (40:36)

The Liam Neeson Naked Gun?

B (40:37)

No, I've been meaning to. I've not gotten to it.

A (40:39)

Have you?

B (40:40)

No, I heard it was respectable. As far as the series goes, the.

A (40:44)

First one is just a foundational part of my thinking about comedy and life and the baseball scene by itself could be an entire movie. Okay, let's go back to basketball.

B (40:56)

Sure.

A (40:57)

Top secret. 1984 is top secret. Brief before we get to our breakout candidates. Disappointment candidates. Brief detour into point guard drama. We've both, I think, on separate podcasts, talked about John Morant. Yeah, that didn't get much better to me in the subsequent game against the Pistons. I thought he played hard toward the end of the game when the Grizzlies started making a little bit of a run. But for most of the game, there was just a lot of walking and standing around and standing near half court and not moving from his spot near half court when other people were moving toward him. So he was messing up Memphis's spacing. And defensively, it just. He was just not. Not great. And then just something I'm monitoring. Hawks beat the Magic without Trey Young. They play Toronto tomorrow, then Lakers Clippers at a bunch of road games. I've said before, this could be where the rubber meets the road for the Hawks and Trae Young. If they're better than they expect without Trae Young, I think that changes the calculus with regard to his extension. That is still. He's still eligible for any time. If their offense takes an even more devastating hit than it has in the past without him, maybe that increases Trae Young's leverage in Those talks, which I think are largely dormant or increases Atlanta's motivation, I don't know which. Or. Or nothing. I don't know. Or like if they play really well without him, does he become a trade candidate? And I do think they've been interesting to watch so far without him. They obviously don't have a traditional point guard orchestrator, but they have a bunch of guys who could orchestrate offense, including Jalen Johnson. They can play through Porzingis in the post a little bit. Nikhil Alexander Walker has been running a nice pick and roll. Jalen Johnson screening and rolling to the basket. They can play with pace. They, they can kind of mimic that like Memphis and now Miami offense, where hey, if we don't have an elite pick and roll handler, everybody just go one on one and drive and we'll get the machine moving. Drive and kick. It's been interesting to watch. Yeah. And it's just no one is going to be traded anytime soon. Have the A large portion of league can't be traded till December 15 anyway. Guys who signed in the off season. I went through all my fake Morant trades on my previous episode. Michael Pina brought up the Timberwolves and I, I said I thought about them as a guard upgrade, a team in need of a guard upgrade. But it just the salaries are so big. Their outgoing salaries would be so big. I don't even know what a trade would look like. I thought about like, what about Gobert for Josh straight up. But then any, any trade in which Minnesota trades go bear. Like, well, how is this team playing any defense at all? Yeah, like, who's there? Who's there leftover? I thought about Randall for job. I'm not sure like that makes any sense for anybody. To be clear. I'm not sure any of these make any sense for anybody. And I think the universe of teams would be roughly the same if Trae Young ever became available. I don't think either of them has like a great or even good trade market. And one thing I will say before I let you talk. I keep seeing Houston mentioned as like a theoretical John Morant team. And every time I read that I'm like, am I insane or is this an absolutely horrible idea that the Rockets would never ever do? I get that Fred Van Vliet is hurt. I get that they have a bunch of assets. I get that John Morant's a big name who is a good NBA player and not has not been a great one in quite a while. Now the Rockets have the number one offense in the NBA. They're winning with defense and toughness and, and rebounding. John morant makes like $45 million in each of the next three years. I don't, I don't even think it's a good encore. I just think it's a bad idea. I don't understand it at all. Any, Any thoughts on either of these guys? Any fake trades? Any destinations? Any teams you're monitoring?

B (44:44)

I don't understand the Rockets idea either. Real quick, just to address that one.

A (44:47)

What you I don't think the Rockets would have any interest in John Moran, frankly. From what I've heard, Fred Van Vliet's.

B (44:53)

Value to the Rockets was as a playmaker, leader and defender. None of which are what I want or think I'm going to get from John Morant. At least not at the same level. And it's not to say that John Morant can't make plays, but I'm certainly not looking at him for defense or leadership. No, I don't see the Rockets as a good landing spot at all. I did this exercise with JA less so Trey, but I agree that the destination list is probably about the same, the list of potential suitors because you're mostly going off of need. And like when I did this with Ja, I eliminated 14 teams right off the top that just don't need a point guard, they're just set at the position. And then I eliminated another nine teams that I considered to be unlikely, including, you'll be happy to know, Chicago and Josh Giddy because I enjoyed your apoplexy when Pina tried sending they're the number.

A (45:43)

One team in the east. Why are they doing anything?

B (45:45)

And Josh Giddy's been awesome with the ball in his hands a lot. So it left me with like five potential teams. The obvious ones are Sacramento because the Kings will do anything and chase any shiny object. They've become what the Knicks were in like the mid 2000s and Miami's the other one because the heat think they can get the best out of and or fix rehab, whatever, anybody. So no matter how flawed a player JA might be or Trey might be perceived as the Heat, always the Heat are do star chase for sure. But they they also believe they can get the best out of anybody because we're the Heat and hashtag each Heat culture, all that stuff. The only other teams are even on the fringe of this, I think conceptually because they just need dudes. But I don't know if the fit makes any damn sense. Toronto, Phoenix and the Pelicans. I think you Actually toyed with the Pelicans Jaw Zion draft thing. Yeah.

A (46:42)

All three were on my list and I. I said no Toronto and no Phoenix right away. Yeah. Phoenix has no assets that Jalen Green hasn't played yet. I don't think they're ready to. Despite Matt Ishbia's frequent forays into new owner syndrome, I don't think they're quite ready to go back.

B (46:58)

No.

A (46:59)

Yet.

B (46:59)

No. It's. Yeah, it's tough.

A (47:03)

Some people are interested in the idea of. I think Trae Young would have a wider trade market than John Moran, despite the fact that he's on an expired, potentially expiring contract. People, there's a certainty with Trey Young that this guy is an elite offensive engine. Other end of the floor, you got to figure out. But we know what this guy does now. Does he need to do more off the ball? Sure. He started to do that in la, but we know what he is, which is why, you know, there's. They're like. Bill, I think, has mentioned Utah as a potential Trey Young team. I don't. And if they. If they are serious about this, like, hey, maybe we can hit the gas a little bit next year and keep Lowry marketing, that would make some sense. But I just think they're so happy with what Keonte George has shown them. Collier hasn't even played yet this year. I don't think they're in that. The other team I thought about for Trey Young, I thought about for both, but I'm just like, I don't. Again, I was a no on this team for John Moran. I'm a no on this team for doing anything right now because I think they're going to stabilize if we get to the trade deadline. And the magic are like 500 with a disappointing offense they call Atlanta and they're like, I mean, but they just traded so many picks for Bain. They don't. But like something with Suggs plus filler plus whatever draft equity is left over. Yeah, I mean, I, I just. I don't know how Orlando approaches it. And then I Are you ready for my insane Trey Young to Minnesota idea?

B (48:28)

There's a Trey Young to Minnesota.

A (48:30)

I was playing with it up.

B (48:31)

I was playing with the trade machine earlier, trying to find it. It's because of the salaries there. It is so, so hard. But, yeah, hit me.

A (48:37)

So the challenge with Minnesota making a big, big trade because I do think they're going to try and upgrade their guard rotation at some point.

B (48:43)

Yeah.

A (48:44)

And I think the likelihood is it lands in something smaller, more marginal Whatever. Because they still have Anthony Edwards and Julius Randle. That's the centerpiece of their team is like, what is the big. If it's a big move, which means a big salary is coming in. What is the big salary going out that this other team is so hungry to get that they're willing to upend their own roster or even exchange their own problem for like Gobert. That's a finicky. You know, his salary is all right. It's. But you need a particular ecosystem for him. And if you already have a starting center, I know how that works. Randall, same thing. Like, I, I think he can fit with some bigs and, and not as well with other bigs. Everyone will want Jaden McDaniels. If I'm Minnesota, I'm like, this is the. This is the. This guy's averaging 18 points a game. He's doing more off the dribble than we ever thought possible already. And there's more to come. This is a guy we. He's like cemented in our core. We're not moving him. This is why my. Here's my fake Troyoung to the. But just in a universe in which they decide, you know what, Trae Young's what we need. I don't think he's what they need. But just, Just if you could build a trade. And remember, with the go with, if Gobert goes out, you have to think like, how are we playing defense? We. We can't play defense right now without Rudy Gobert. Trey Young and Christops Porzingis for Rudy Gobert and Jada McDaniels, plus a little filler. It's an insane trade. I don't think anybody does that trade. I think both sides think picks need to be coming to them. It just, it's just interesting because I get Porzingis to replace Gobert, I have to give up McDaniels, which is the selling point for me. If I'm the Hawks. Yeah, if I'm the Hawks, I'm taking on a lot of long term money for a lot of expiring money, which is. I probably. I don't know if I want to do that particularly for Gobert, but it's, it's. It's. There's something. There's an interesting framework there. All right, enough. Enough crazy.

B (50:34)

I, I will say one quick thought on the Timberwolves just with, with regard to trade pieces. I thought from the moment they got Randall, that. And granted, he's, he's been at times a very good fit and at times A little bit awkward, especially at the beginning last year. I, I don't think you need Randall and Nasrid, especially at their prices. And they've got a lot of guys who are making 20, 30, 40, right. So you've got movable guys at big enough salaries to get value in return. And I just like McDaniels is the guy you don't want to move. Anthony Edwards is obviously there for the duration and Gobert's still anchoring your defense. It feels to me like it's, it's a Randall Nas Reed thing where one of those guys has to go out. Unless you're just making something, you know, a smaller thing, you know, move around the margins, right? Going out and getting like a Jose Alvarado or something to, to man point guard, like a, you know, a really super cheap option. I thought about Dennis Schroeder even, but again, trying to find the salary matches is, is tough, I think.

A (51:34)

Look, Tim Connolly has proven he is not afraid. Once he got to Minnesota, it was just like, all right, you paid me all this money. I have an infinite job in financial security. I'm going to let it fly. Like go bear in, cat out. Like he's not afraid to do some, some risky stuff. And by the way, who won the cat trade? I don't even know anymore. Did anyone win? Did we all win? Is it a tie? Like who? I. I don't know. They played last night and all I'm thinking is, man, Divincenzo's hitting a million threes, Randall's on fire, the Wolves defense stinks. I don't want who won. This cat's like Herky jerking around, dunking on people, committing offensive fouls. Like what's happening?

B (52:12)

It's, it's the Seinfeld episode where he just keeps breaking even. Everybody broke even.

A (52:18)

But on, on Naz Reed, like, I love Naz Reed deserved six men a year. I thought he deserved more attention in the race last year. He's an elite offensive playing big man. Does a lot, does everything I like when he, he's posting up a little bit, bit, bit more this year with ant out. Give me all the Nazrid post ups against mismatches. I love it. Give me a little lefty baby hook. 21 million this year. 23, 25, 26 player option for 28 man. We have seen how the league, as the apron era sets in, treats these contracts to a literal six man. Like a starter in caliber. Big but, but a six man on a, on a good team making that much money and it's as difficult to move slash like not really hotly desired contract. I don't know how much trade value Nazride has on that contract. And at his age, it's that's why I made up this crazy Trey porzingis for Gobert McDaniel street, which I don't think has is is like ever going to be a thing. It's just hard to make the math work in a way that makes sense for both teams. And even there I could see, I could see Minnesota being like, we're giving up Jada McDaniels. Give us a draft asset. He might he's extremely valuable to us and he's extremely valuable to you. And then I could see him in Atlanta saying, what are you talking about? We're giving up Trey Young. He's the guy you want and we're taking on all this money give us draft assets. So I don't know.

B (53:38)

Okay, There's a BAM update, by the way. Just landed.

A (53:42)

Oh, what is the BAM update?

B (53:43)

Left big toe sprain and has been ruled out of tomorrow night's game against Charlotte. That was the tweet from Mark Stein. I didn't see the actual posting by the side straight from Miami, so seems.

A (53:55)

Like a sigh of relief. Big toe sprain, though. Not to be messed with. Okay, just modern. Just monitoring the Hawks without Trae Young. That's all I'm saying. I still, I still am optimistic that there's a world in which it all comes together with Trae Young and this nucleus, but okay. This episode is brought to you by Loom. Feeling a little stuck at work lately? Stuck in email, back and forth, stuck in endless meetings? Get your team unstuck with Loom by Atlassian. Just record your screen, your face, your voice and send quick videos that actually get the message across. Unstuck your process, projects and teams with video communication from Loom. Try Loom today@loom.com that's L-O-O-M.com this episode is brought to you by HBO Max. Get ready to go back to where it all began. From the director of it comes a terrifying new series set in 1960s Derry, Maine, exploring the unsettling beginnings of one of horror's greatest villains, Pennywise the Clown. The new HBO series. It welcome to Derry is now streaming on HBO Max. New episode Sundays at 9pm let's go to some some breakout candidates and some disappointments. Howard Beck, you're. You're Remember the the goal here. Was it like Josh Giddey's Too obvious?

B (55:06)

Yeah.

A (55:07)

Tyrese Maxey, we know like the guy's gonna be an all NBA player. He's on track to be an all NBA player. Let's do, let's give some love to some maybe like slightly more under the radar guys who are either breaking out or just, just thriving. They're just thriving in their role. They're just doing well.

B (55:25)

You mentioned this earlier, but I, I did a drive by on, on Avdia for this and thought, no, he's too, he's too obvious also. So I, I ruled him out. I did not put him there.

A (55:32)

He's obvious.

B (55:34)

He's very well done. I will say it was the first time in a while that I was like, wait, how did the Blazer Blazers get him again? What was the trade?

A (55:45)

It's, it's. I'm glad you brought that up because that trade.

B (55:48)

So I looked it up, which was.

A (55:49)

I'm gonna. It was the pick that became Bub Carrington and a pick that is like the second best of like Milwaukee, Boston, something. It, it's gonna be, it's not a lot. It's gonna be. And it, and I would say when I put it was, it was a fascinating trade the moment it happened. Yeah. I'll just say I, it's one of those trades where I text like 20 executives. What do you think of this trade? I would say 60 to 70% was. I don't know about that trade for Portland and they're a rebuilding team and like I know Abdi is good and I know that this pick, that what was Bob Carrington pick, like 13, 14, whatever it was, is just a mid round pick. And this other pick could just be a mid round pick. But a rebuilding team just can't be in the business of trading draft picks, potentially valuable draft picks or even draft picks you could bundle in a bigger trade than this. And I remember being like, I don't know. Avdi is good. He's like 22 years old, 23 years old. He's on this insane contract that declines in value and he's become so much more than good. I think that's one of those trades we're going to revisit under the radar. NBA nerds will revisit that trade. I think it's going to work out well for Portland. That guy's just really, really good.

B (56:58)

And I thought about it from the wizard side of it too, because it's like, all right, you're obviously new administration, you're in a tear down, all that stuff and that's fine. And this is what you. But like probably didn't get enough back was one first round pick, a couple of seconds plus Brogdon and the pick that became Carrington. And you know, I don't know, is there a scenario where you could have kept Abdia or is there a scenario where you should just simply have gotten more. Could you have known at that time? Like, obviously, you know, like, like some of this you could see coming. Some of it was, was already happening. He's just doing it all at that much of a higher level since Portland. And I don't know, I just, it was the first time in a while I thought about what the actual transaction was. So I just want to note that real quick.

A (57:42)

Sadly for myself, I think about it almost anytime I watch one of these teams and the thing that's happened for Abdia is the free throws continue to go up like nine a game I think he's at now and he's gotten confident in his three point shot. He would pass them up with Washington and drive into stuff that wasn't going to go well for him. Now he's taken, I think six a game, which is right about where it's not too many, but it's not too few. He's shooting 36%. He's just a wildly creative, crafty, physical offensive player. Good. He's playing point guard at times for them. Like it's sort of shared between him and Jrue Holiday and sometimes just him and Bob carrington is shooting 24% on twos. I still have hope. I still have hope. Okay, give me one, Give me a good story.

B (58:21)

So I threw this one into the notes. Earlier you said you did cover him, but let's hit him anyway because he's just been a lot of fun. Ryan Rollins with the Bucks. He has cooled off a little bit over the last couple of games. 22 points combined over the last two after that, that four game tear that he was on. But his, his playmaking and his defense, I think have been revelations. The Bucks just so badly need internal growth and young guys to pop in any way, shape or form as they go into this, whatever this period is with Giannis of everybody trying to figure out what's coming next. They just badly need somebody to pop and he did. And like there was that, that, that little run there for a little while. That was. I, I felt like, and I hate to invoke the name, but a little insanity esque for a little bit there. Not quite at those levels and not as, as long of a duration, but you know a guy who, you know had been, you know, you know, passed around the league, bounced around a little bit, didn't, you know, was having a hard time sticking. Had been on a two way deal. It was Ryan Rollins, I think you had already covered this. But Ryan Rollins being given away by the warriors in the Jordan pool. Trade to Washington, waived by the Wizards, a rebuilding team that's just looking for good young prospects. Waived the guy months after getting him and then joins the Bucks on a two way deal and now is, you know, a really important player for them on a very good contract. That's been fun.

A (59:48)

Yeah.

B (59:48)

And he plays his butt off.

A (59:49)

I've given him a lot of love. He's got a lot of pop on both ends of the floor. And I just think it's interesting that The Bucks are 5 and 3. I think have to be encouraged by how they've played given Giannis has missed what, one, two games? I think at least one game. And they won one of them that he missed. I think just one. And Miles Turner is averaging 9.8 points a game and shooting 40 overall. And Bobby Portis has opened in a shooting slump in the front court was the thing that we were most sure about. The Bucks and the backcourt was the big question mark. And between Rollins, Trent's been pretty solid. AJ Green's been pretty solid. Cole Anthony's been more than solid. Kevin Porter Jr. Hasn't really played yet this season. It's sort of been the opposite. Okay, pick. Another breakout happy story. Happy times.

B (60:34)

AJ Mitchell. You mentioned him earlier, briefly. My God, the Thunder. Sam Presti. Holy moly. AJ Mitchell, 38th pick in 2024 out of UC Santa Barbara, my wife's alma mater. Go Gauchos. Averaging 16.7 points, 3.7 rebounds, 3 1/2 assists. Not shooting great on threes, but 53% on twos. Making 94 of his free throws. Super aggressive driver seeks out contact, good in the paint, throws nice lobs, which is a good talent to have on a team with Isaiah Hartenstein and Chet Holmgren when he's playing. Just a lot of fun. It's. You don't want to go to the point of saying like, oh, they don't even miss Jalen Williams. Of course they miss Jalen Williams, but what a nice luxury to have without Jalen Williams. Another one where I had to like dig into like the. How did he at land there again? He was drafted by the Knicks with that aforementioned 38th pick. Traded to the Thunder for Oso Iguidaro and cash. And then the Knicks flipped Oso Iguidaro to the suns for Kevin McCuller and a 2028 second. The Knicks maybe should have. Yeah, maybe maybe should have kept him.

A (61:49)

They just cascade through a million different picks every draft night.

B (61:52)

They have had so many more hits than misses over the last five years that I can't really tweak them about that.

A (61:58)

But that's a. That's a nothing but.

B (62:00)

Yeah, but nevertheless, he'd be a nice one to have hung onto as. As would have Ryan Rollins for the wizards.

A (62:07)

Yeah, so A.J. mitchell's very good. He's only shooting 29% on threes, which should. Should tick up when he's sort of back into what is a normal role for him. And there's. There's like a lot of him happening, like, a lot of dribbling, a lot of, like, oh, you're just. He's just going to run the offense now for a long period of time. He's tough, he plays hard, and I think there's a lot of him, mostly because A, he's been efficient and B, of who's been out. And I think it's tempting whenever someone like this pops for the Thunder, it's tempting to be like, well, boy, they're loaded with trade assets. They could flip this guy. I actually like the idea of AJ Mitchell on the floor when Shay Gilchrist Alexander is off the floor. So it's not just like Jalen Williams, you got to do everything, or Jalen Chet, you got to do everything. Just another sort of release valve. And he's another guy who can pair with Shea in those guard, guard, pick and rolls the Thunder love so much and are so good at. All right, give me a third. Howard Beck. Happy, happy time story.

B (63:08)

All right, another guy who you name checked briefly during our Jazz Larry Markkanen segment, but Keonte George, as you say, looks like a completely different player. I had forgotten this. He was benched starting in, like, early January of last season. He had been benched for Isaiah Collier and. And remained a bench player for almost the entire rest of the season, down until the last, like, I think three games. The Jazz are in a rebuild, ergo, they need building blocks. And if Keonte George accelerates his development to our discussion earlier, I don't know, maybe that means you do keep Lowry market and I don't. I don't know. But averaging 22.6 points, three and a half rebounds, nearly eight assists, which is way, way, way up. Only shooting 26 from three down from 34 last season, but he's shooting 52 on twos, which is way up from last season, and 90 of his free throws and. And getting to the line 9.3 times a game. 9.3 free throw attempts a game which is more than doubled. Super aggressive. Super. But, like, it. It's not just the aggression. It's like aggression with good intent and clarity. Like, it looks like he just knows exactly where he's trying to go each time and. And just really steady. There was a play the other night where there was a funky call or something, and he just, like, he doesn't really react. He just kind of has this puzzled look like, are you sure, ref? Like, can you please explain? I just like his demeanor. He seems like he's really kind of settled in and. And the numbers are very nice.

A (64:49)

No, no, it looks like a totally different player.

B (64:52)

Yeah.

A (64:53)

All right, I'm going to get into a few of mine. Are you ready? Yeah.

B (64:56)

Hit me.

A (64:58)

Shocking to know when I cheated and picked pairings in a couple of these. So for the 6 and 1 Chicago Bulls, I just want to. I want to say their names. I want to shout them out. Trey Jones and Jalen Smith. They're starting point guard and their backup center. Just valuable minutes both ends of the floor. Jalen Smith is averaging nine points a game, shooting well enough from the corners that people kind of respect him. And Giddy can run these weirdo pick and rolls with guards and hunt mismatches, and he's just beating the crap out of smaller players. Josh Giddey is when he gets those mismatches. And Jalen Smith's defending the rim pretty well. The Bulls have been good with him on the floor in Vuchovic's place. They've been good with Vuch on the floor, too. And Trey Jones just. Just slipped under the radar as an acquisition for the Bulls last year. They resigned him in the summer. He is shooting 49. 60 of his shots have come at the basket. He's beaten Biggs on switches, and he plays way above his size defensively. He's a. He's a good defense player. The Bulls switch a lot one through four, so I just want to shout those guys out. They deserve a little love in the Bulls love fest.

B (66:02)

And the Bulls deserve the love fest as well.

A (66:04)

They absolutely do. Number two choice for me. I cheated again. The Detroit Pistons centers Jalen Duran and Isaiah Stewart. Jalen. During 18 and 11 a game. Holy smokes. Opponents are shooting 45% at the rim against him. Even though I still think he's. He's still doing the thing where he tries to block Shots he has no chance to block. And. And the defensive glass is exposed behind him. Few too many turnovers. He's a very adventurous passer. Just gotta dial that back a little bit. And beef stew. Oh, my God, that dude. It's like, it's. He's like Bill Russell all of a sudden. You can't score on him at the basket. He's shooting well on threes. 39%. He's playing with Jalen Duran sometimes. The two of them are plus 32 together in 74 minutes. Just a rock solid center center combination. Pistons are holding opponents to the lowest shooting percentage at the rim of all teams in the NBA, largely thanks to these two guys. Wow. And if Jalen Duran ever harnesses all of his potential. And it's starting to happen. And that Kade Duran pick and roll, despite the complete lack of spacing around it for the most part is going to be a dangerous weapon. I just. These two guys have been really good. And Ron Holland. I just shout out Ron Holland looks like a more polished player. Okay, my third one. We'll just be quick on this. Just journeyman Colin Gillespie. Someone's got to play point guard for the Phoenix Suns. Colin Gillespie's coming off the bench. 11 points, 5 assists a game. They are a almost dead even minus one with him on the floor, which is for them, very good. And when he plays with Booker, they're plus 32 in 112 minutes. Just playing really well. So those are my first three. Who's your last one?

B (67:45)

Last one. The. The pride of Adolfo Camarillo High School, where my niece went. Jaime Hawkins. I confused you with that one.

A (67:55)

I didn't. I don't. Don't even know.

B (67:58)

My Ventura county ties are coming into play here. Shout out to Camarillo. Jaime Hawke is averaging 17 and a half points double last season, six plus rebounds, way up from last season. Four plus assists up from last season. Not shooting well from. From 3, but 69% on twos, 80% of his free throws. He has really just incredible bounce back. Right. We've seen sophomore slumps sometimes and you just. But his was like super mysterious. It just. I didn't understand anything that was going on with him last year. Great note from Anthony Chang in the Miami Herald that Hawk has worked with a mental coach this past off season. And the partial quote here was that Hawk says, I was recognizing how to keep my mind organized and not cluttered, not focusing on a million things at once, which is a great thing for a basketball player. And it's interesting because I. I Do I do enjoy the psychology of, of the game we cover and the players that the, the benefit of being somebody who's got tunnel vision and single minded. They might screw up a lot and mess up your offense but they have a clarity of what they want to do. And guys who are really thoughtful sometimes it hurts them. And I wondered if Hawkes fell into this category. A little bit of just like a little uncertainty, a little unsure of like what should I and so now there's a certainty or a clarity here. It seems like he's gotten from working with the mental coach. But also the the Heat have completely overhauled the offense and there's just a lot of movement and a lot of spacing and a lot of room to attack and drive. Hawkins is averaging almost 13 drives a game that's 20th in the NBA right now and almost everybody ahead of him in drives per game. They're almost all established stars or starters primary options and he's converting 57% on those drives. So he's just, he just looks like that really vital player that we saw when he was first team all rookie. Just fun to see him kind of coming alive again because he's a fun player to watch especially when, when he's, when he's attacking.

A (70:04)

He was in my honorable mentions along with fellow headies Heatles, Heat Heat players Simone Fontechio. Simone Fontechio and Pella Larson has been spot started for them and playing very well. Just a smart player. Always making smart little extra passes and, and tough rebounds, tipping out rebounds, stuff like that. And shooting well too on threes. Yeah, Hawkez is a, is an ideal. He's been the biggest beneficiary of their total offensive overhaul. It's a great fit for how he plays. Sort of bullying shoulder first drives. My last guy was Nemi Esqueda for the Boston Celtics career backup journeyman. They got him for nothing. It's only averaging nine points in eight rebounds a game. It's not crazy but on a team that is just absolutely starved for any functional size and it's. He's just an okay, he's a good rebounder but he alone cannot help their poorest defensive rebound and they're getting smoked on the glass. But he's shooting 71. He's got a nice, he's got a nice touch. He's mobile on defense. He can defend in a few different ways and it's early. Some of this is because opponents have been like ice cold with him on the floor on threes. So just take it for what it's worth. They're plus 19 per 100 possessions with Keda on the floor and minus 7 with him off the floor. Just the combination of Luca Garza, Chris Boucher, Tillman. It did. It's just those. None of those guys have found their group. The Celtics. Jalen Brown's playing great. Derek White and Peyton Pritchard have found their strokes of late. It just makes you appreciate just a functional good big man and you take that guy off the floor, it's like they're completely helpless.

B (71:41)

Where are you on Jaylen Brown's hairline and smudges that he keeps leaving on people?

A (71:48)

I haven't seen this. This is a thing.

B (71:50)

This is a thing. Jaylen Brown seemingly is using some sort of spray on filler that has been marking guys, jerseys, opponents as he drives in.

A (72:02)

You know what he's averaging? 28 points a game. 4 assists. I'd like that number to be higher, but they have a lot of guys who can pass in a lot of. They're sort of a democratic cutting passing system. 27, 4 and 4, 53%, 39% on 3, 60% on twos. Guy can wear Fletch's wig for all I care. If he's playing like that.

B (72:19)

Ok, listen, I'm the one to talk. I should. I. I could use the spray on myself. I'm not bold enough for it. Can I throw out you one quick honorable mention on the breakouts? He's not really breaking out, but I was as I was going through obscure possibilities and combing rosters and everything else, and I stopped for a minute because I knew he was getting a lot of burn early. And now he's not getting burned the last couple of games. Ray J. Dennis of the Pacers, because that is like the greatest. Like 1970s, straight out of the ABA. Name Ray J. Dennis had to have played 45, 50 years ago. That's a phenomenal name. I just love the name.

A (72:54)

It's incredible. Look, everybody's hurt, right? Nemhardt, Matheran, Toppin, on and on. Let alone Halliburton, let alone Halliburton McConnell. Watching the Pacers right now is like, am I. Am I right that this team was in the finals like four months ago or what? Like, or five months ago. How did this. How did this happen? It's like Jeremiah Robinson Earl, who is a hardship exception, signing one of two that they have on their team. The other one is Cody Martin, I think is just essential to their team. It's like unbelievable. My honorable mentions, I'm just gonna rapid fire honorable Mentions Jonathan Kaminga, Brandon Pajemski, Moses Moody. Oh my God. Moses Moody, automatic from the corners right now. Joshua Kogi, spot starting. Jabari Smith Jr. Everybody knows I love him. Let's see. Tristan De Silva, a nice story off the Magic Spence. Adam Bona, blocking everything in sight. RJ Barrett, Maybe too high brow for this, too. Too known for this exercise. Just a really good basketball player. He. He's. He just contributes in the flow. Does a little bit of everything. Does what the Raptors need. He's fit in very well there. Mamu. Mamu's playing great. Backup center Jamal Shed. Who else do I want to shout out? Marvin Bagley iii, playing great for the Wiz. Kaishan George. There's someone whose name I can't read here because my writing sucks. Stephen Adams, not exactly under the radar, beloved NBA character. I just wanted to read this. Stephen Adams has rebounded 27 of Houston's misses while on the floor. So that means one out of every four misses that the Rockets have are offensive rebounds by a single individual. Stephen Adams. The single season record for any player is 21 and a half percent. So I'm just flagging it now. Stephen Adams, chase the record. I want the new record for offensive rebounding rate. I wish I could read this guy's name that I can't read. Oh, well, that's it for my honorable mentions, I think. OGN and Obi. Is he too highbrow for this? He's playing great too. Yeah. Okay. Disappointments. I said pick two disappointments from the same vein of players. Howard Beck, get nasty. Who's your disappointment again?

B (75:07)

I think probably well covered, but it's impossible to avoid Cam Johnson in this discussion at this stage of the season. I liked the trade. I think you and I covered this actually in like July when I was on and I think I was higher on the deal than you or just higher on the idea of Cam Johnson being a. An upgrade. 8.6 points a game is a career low. 3 rebounds a game is a career low. 1 1/2 assists a game is like second lowest of his career. Shooting 27% on threes. Really alarming. 50% on twos. There was some report of like right shoulder soreness middle of last week. It's something to keep an eye on, I guess. So I don't know if this is physical, if this is just the, you know, assimilating to the Nuggets. I. I think we all like to believe that if you can shoot and cut and do smart things on a basketball court, you will fit very well and very seamlessly with Nikola Jokic and that anybody could just like plug in and go. And I think that that's probably true and I think that's going to be true for Cam Johnson, who's a very bright player and who has, you know, done wonderfully, especially early in his career, playing off of other stars. Like he's, he's a great plug and play guy. So I don't you, you may have more extensive thoughts on this than or, or at least theories than I do right now. I, I don't know what to make of it other than it's early new team, possibly a shoulder issue. I assume he's going to be fine.

A (76:39)

Yeah, I think he'll be fine. I thought the trade was fine. I, I wasn't as like head over heels about it as a lot of people were. I was. No, I was, I was fine because it got them the financial flexibility to do some other things, including the Valentunas move and you know, Bruce Brown and Tim Hardaway Jr. Came after. But yeah, I just thought, I thought people were in the rush to kick a one armed defensively, wildly inconsistent and mostly, frankly, bad and unpredictable. On podcast Michael Porter Jr. Out out after a disappointing playoffs. I think people just sort of forgot how good that dude is at specific skills that are really valuable on the Nuggets, most of which is being 610 with an unblockable 3 that is super accurate even against strong contests. And he's a good rebounder, which Cam Johnson is not. And Cam Johnson hasn't been a beacon of like health and reliability in his career either. But I understood why they did it. And the number one benefit was supposed to be Cam Johnson is much more adept with the ball than Michael Porter Jr. Much more adept at attacking closeouts, driving and kicking, keeping the machine moving. Whereas the machine just kind of ended when Michael Porter Jr. Got the ball. That hasn't translated so far. He, his drives are way down. I talked about this earlier this week. I think that's probably hopefully health related. I have no qualms. I think that will be fine. I just, you know, put some respect on Michael Porter Jr's name as a basketball player. A little bit my first disappointment just, you know, look it, it's not going great for the, the 2024 draft class right now. Just in general, Risa Shea has been great. He's in my honorable mention. Saar has been fine. Reed Shepard has been, you know, okay. Stefan Castle. I covered Ron Holland, I covered T. John Salon again, as I said with the Nets. It's. It's not great when a rebuilding team can't really find minutes for a high lottery pick of recent vintage. TJ Salon was the sixth pick in that draft. His minutes are way down. His production is way down. He's averaging three points a game. He's only 20 years old. I just, He. He just shoots a lot of threes and kind of runs around and I just like. He doesn't shoot threes well enough for 60% of his shot attempts to be threes. He profiles as a solid, active defender, rebounder. I just. I would just like to see something. I would like to see something that makes me hopeful that there's not going to be regret with this pick. Like, well, like, would Bou Zealous be the number one pick in the draft if they redrafted this the. The 2024 draft right now? Would it be Castle? Would it. Probably sarcastic. I don't even know. I just know the T. John Salon would not go sixth above Donovan Clingan, who's. All right. Bou Zealous. It's. It's like not a great. It's just not great. I just. The Hornets are a young, up and coming team and one of their young, up and coming players is not up to anything really right now. That's all.

B (79:54)

Yeah, no, that's, That's. That's a good call. And yeah, as you mentioned, I hadn't thought about it like the whole draft class and yeah, Zach Edey being hurt and topich having to deal with cancer. That's serious. There's just a lot. There's a lot going there. Jared McCain, when healthy, is a bright spot of that. Draft classes along with Khalil Ware.

A (80:16)

I mean, like, Jared McCain's played, what, 23 games in the NBA or something? Like, I, I think 24 games. I think the hype, like, let's just wait a little bit. Yeah, fair. All right, give me your second disappointment because I've got a doozy for my. My, my last one.

B (80:33)

All right. I got creative on this one, guys named Jordan.

A (80:38)

Jordan Clarkson, Jordan Pool Mike, Michael Jordan's.

B (80:42)

I'm throwing Michael into this too, by the way.

A (80:43)

Insights to excellence. Can I start that? Can I start Zach Lowe's Insights to Mediocrity? Let me tell you this. Here's how you cook a perfectly mediocre meat sauce for pasta in eight minutes or less. Get an onion at the grill. What are my other seed? Do you have any secrets to mediocrity?

B (81:02)

Secret? I mean, I wouldn't call this Mediocrity. Because, like, I am fucking excellent at loading the dishwasher. Like, I am a great dishwasher loader. I can find every last little crevice. I can maximize every centimeter space. I inherited this from my mom. She was great at this. So, yeah, my, my three minute segment per week with Mike Tirico would be out explaining my process for the dishwasher.

A (81:24)

Secrets to mediocrity. Sure, honey, you can watch a little more tv. Daddy's busy in his office. Interview. Interview me for an hour about my secrets to mediocrity. It'll be great.

B (81:43)

I am throwing Michael Jordan into this. I'll come back to him. Jordan Clarkson. Michael Pete and I had an off season podcast where we were doing like, let's do some really adventurous early picks for postseason awards for the 25, 26 season. And let's. We, we knocked out all the guys who had either already won recently or were favorites. And so I went Jordan Clarkson for six man of the year on the premise that Jordan Clarkson, in the old school model of six man, you know, ball handler, scorer, off the bench, does a lot with the ball in his hands. And we saw in his Cleveland years certainly could, could fill that role very well. And then like he's like stuck in Utah on a, on a going nowhere team for years and you kind of forget. And he'd been banged up too, but I just thought like, change of scenery. Contending team in the east with the Knicks, Jalen Brunson needs anybody who can do something with the ball in their hands to like ease some of his burden, his workload and everything. Mike Brown coming in will, you know, certainly going to give him some run. He started to come around Jordan Clarkson. So I don't want to go too hard on him. And the knicks are a plus 3.3 per 100 with him on the course. He's been fine, but he's been fine, but he's still been a little bit more. He's been a little bit too. Jordan Clarkson. Y. I, I was hoping for a little bit more streamlined, efficient is almost too strong a word, but judicious version. And Jordan Poole. This, this is my weakness for young guys who, in the league who there's some obvious talent, they're fun, they do some things, they have some exciting moments and you're always waiting for them to kind of get it. And Jordan Poole with the warriors, there were moments and then the punch happens and everything and he's got to go and that's, that's not his fault. But he goes to Washington again, shitty team. You're going as especially as a primary ball handler type who can just you've got licenses to do whatever. I don't expect him to be great in Washington. I didn't like like you. I did not like the trade of the Pelicans. But again, fresh start, teammates with some talent and it's just the same undisciplined just mess for Jordan Poole New Orleans. He is, he is a massive part of the problem. The Pelicans are a minus almost minus 22 per 100 with him on the floor. Just a mess. And Michael Jordan I just decided to throw in if I was going with guys named Jordan. I'm throwing Michael in Zach because I ran it about this on the Real ones the other day. I just don't need Michael Jordan lecturing us about load management. I get it. You played all 82 all the time, blah blah blah blah blah. It's a different time. You are not in this NBA. You don't know anything about the medical and science information network that is now in play. Like teams are doing this. It's not the players doing this. It is largely the teams doing this. And you're just being old men yelling at clouds. And we have plenty of those guys already doing that. So you know I'm just throwing Jordan in here as long as I'm bagging on Jordans.

A (84:41)

Zach Lowe's guide insights to mediocrity make your bed by 3pm just just to just to avoid household strife. There's an insight for you. If you got a lot of clothes on the floor, just throw them in the closet and shut the closet door and hope nobody notices it opens the closet.

B (85:02)

Great stuff.

A (85:04)

I got more. I got more. Order. Order Indian food at all. Opportunities to avoid cooking because you're so lazy.

B (85:11)

You're also on the the shave once every three or four days schedule as I am. So I appreciate that mediocrity.

A (85:17)

This looks better than clean shaven.

B (85:20)

The problem is mine has gotten too gray. That's the real issue.

A (85:27)

This is, it's too much to say this player is a disappointment. I'm just, I wanted to flag it now because this, this whole team feels like something of a mystery and just feels slightly off to me as we approach three weeks into the season. Evita Zubots, coming off a season in which he had a legitimate claim to an all NBA spot, he averaged 17 and 13 a game, was one of the best at rim defenders in the league. He's down to 13 and 10. Opponents are shooting 61 at the rim against him. Those are not huge drop offs and it's very early and the Clippers had a lot of new players, including a guy named, including John Collins, who infringes on some of Zubots's stuff a little bit. And I so it's my way of saying I think there's stuff for him to figure out. It's a. It's a little bit of a it's not as simple as just I'm going to screen for James Harden a million times a game. I he just hasn't seemed as impactful to me in his minutes, as rock solid as, as dependable and reliable on both ends of the floor. And I think that just mirrors how the Clippers have been. To me, it's just something is just not clicking quite yet. And I talked a lot about them earlier this week, but I just Zubots is less disappointing than a lot of other players I'm about to mention in his raw stats and his overall play, but it just doesn't feel the same to me. And this team being a 50 win team, which is what Vegas said they were going to be, I think depended on that same Zubots from last year carrying over into this season. It hasn't happened so far. Just doesn't feel like the same guy. All right, other honorable mentions for me, I already mentioned Risa Shea, Brad Beal, too early, he's been injured. Chris Paul, too old. Like the he doesn't deserve this. Bogdan Bogdanovich, Jordan Poole, Jordan Hawkins, just can't even get in the game.

B (87:23)

Another Jordan.

A (87:25)

I mentioned Bobby Portis and Miles Turner. They'll be fine. I mentioned a bunch of Mavericks guys already. Nikola Jovic, Jalen Wells. Okay. And, and for this I went a little high. I went some higher wattage guys. I just wanted to mention all the attentions on JAW Jaren Jackson Jr. Not having a great year, still fouling all the time and has been at times, if not as disinterested and disengaged as Ja certainly not in a mode of like give me the freaking ball, I'm taking over. When they played the Pistons the other day, there was a possession where he had Duncan Robinson on him. Love Duncan Robinson, very good player, has no business guarding Jaren Jackson Jr. It was a bad matchup, it was a cross match and Jaren Jackson Jr. Spent the entire possession as nothing was happening, as the Grizzlies were just barfing the ball all over the floor, just standing in the left corner not moving, doing nothing and you're screaming at your like, dude, post up. Do something. Call for the ball. Just give me a little bit more. Rob Dillingham. It's early. Desmond Bain, Jalen Suggs. Can you get off a minute's restriction ever? Cam Whitmore, Alleged sixth man of the year candidate Cam Whitmore can barely get on the floor for the Washington Wizards. Cody Williams and Bryce Sensiba can't get on the floor floor for the Utah Jazz. I don't want to talk about CJ McCollum, Emmanuel Quickley, Gershon Yabu Selli. How many points you think Gershon Yabu Selli has this year, Howard?

B (88:48)

Total points.

A (88:49)

Total points.

B (88:50)

Total points in like eight games. I'm going to say 65.

A (88:56)

You think Gershon Yabuzeli has 65 points? He has 14 points.

B (89:07)

Oh, God.

A (89:09)

And just these guys are way too big for this conversation. But I just want to say I'm waiting with bated breath as an optimist, as someone who never sold my stock, never did the thing where like, what does this guy do if he can't shoot threes? I've been an Evan Mobley believer from day one. Now that Garland's back, I'm waiting on the breakout that we hear is coming every year. Because he's been good. Yeah, but the offense has been kind of clunky. It's been a lot of like, Donovan Mitchell, save us. And if not Donovan Mitchell, Evan Mobley can you create something from nothing and he can do that and we all want a little bit more out of that from him. But I haven't seen the pop yet and I think we're going to see it now that Garland's back. And I I do want to get your thoughts on what have you thought of Embiid so far?

B (89:55)

You know, it's interesting because I as you know, I was the stubborn Sixer optimist.

A (90:02)

Hey, there's a should be taking your victory lap.

B (90:04)

I I but you know, it's funny is because I predicated that optimism not on BJ Edgecombe is going to look like a freaking stud right out of the gate and it's going to be the backcourt led obviously that was on the table, but it was more about the idea that we have collectively written off and beaten Paul George too soon. Paul George hasn't played yet, so maybe we have written him off at the exact right time.

A (90:24)

Literally forgot about Paul George for I know it's I I don't think I've thought I I thank you for reminding.

B (90:30)

Me of of that he Exists. Yes, he still exists. But embiId, like, game one, I was like, oh, my God, am I what. What have I done here with this optimism? Because that my whole premise was if he just comes back as, like, 75, 80% of what he was, he's still a really impactful player. He doesn't have to be mvp. Joel Embiid of a couple of years ago, and from everything that we know, and there's plenty we don't know with player health, from everything we know, there's no reason to think that he's just done at age 31 or whatever, that his knee is just beyond repair. And he looked so clunky and so tentative, and so just. I'm just going to hang out here on the perimeter for that first game or two. And the last couple of games, like, the activity levels really picked up. Like, he's getting inside again and he's driving with the ball and it's not always going well, but it doesn't look any clunkier than I think it did before he went down the last time. Like, it's starting to come around. Like, it's almost like literally watching the rush shake off and the fluidity starting to come back. I wouldn't call him fluid. He's fluid. Ish. He's better than he was. But I think it's promising. And like, I don't, you know, in any version of the NBA, and including today's, there's only so far that an explosive backcourt's going to get you and you need something, even if it's not elite scoring from your back line, then you at least need rim protection. And Joel Embiid is starting to actually, he seems more active defensively in the paint as well the last couple of games. So I. I would say promising, like, like cautiously optimistic. And the sense I got, you know, the Sixers were here the other day. Like, I get the sense that two things about Embiid, and we again, we kicked this around on the real ones the other day. Like, because, you know, Logan's thing was if Embiid gets back to some semblance of who he was, now you got to worry about the ego part. The sense I'm getting from the Sixers is, one, they still believe Joel Embiid is going to get back to some semblance of productivity and some percentage of his old self that is valuable. And two, no concern as of yet that he's going to insist on I'm the center of the universe again, because there's a recognition after Everything he's gone through in multiple surgeries and all the rehab and the spilling his guts in the dspn.com story over the summer. Like, I, I think the sense is that Joel Embiid, who certainly had a sizable ego at his peak, understands where he is in his career trajectory and understands the luxury now of having a maxi and edgecomb to lean on and not having to do it all. And, and if he's made that adjustment mentally, I, I think that bodes very well for them.

A (93:07)

And Grimes, Grimes has played very well.

B (93:09)

Grimes, yeah.

A (93:11)

Yeah. Embiid is. It's strange to watch because even in games where, like, I watched that Bulls game, which I think is the most recent game he played.

B (93:20)

Yeah.

A (93:21)

And I, and I did not come out of it thinking he had looked all that much better. And then I read some people say, oh, man, he looked. It's, it's, it's starting to come. All right.

B (93:30)

First half, first half was okay. Second half was not good.

A (93:32)

He did have a couple late in the game challenges at the rim where you could see him say, it's a close game, it's late. I'm revving it up. I'm going to jump with. With more height and more force. And that was encouraging. I already mentioned the sort of pass the baton on offense thing that happened late in that game. But even his post touches are down. Not dramatically so, but they're down. He's not drawing any fouls on his post ups, which is unlike him according to Second Spectrum. And you could just. He doesn't want, he's not seeking out physical contact in the way he's seeking out. If you want to reach out, put your hand in the cookie jar. He'll, he'll draw. He'll reach out and make you foul him. But he's not bulldozing people like, you see. He just wants to shoot jump shots.

B (94:17)

Yeah.

A (94:18)

And you could see in that Bulls game, like, they weren't sending him double teams. They were just like Vuch, you got this on your own. We're not going to double you. And I have to think some of that, at least some of it is just mental of. I'm, I would, if I were him, I would be naturally anxious about going full blast into collisions and falling and running and jumping at absolute full speed and landing and all of that. And you just have to hope and think that a lot of it is just, I'm going to ease my way back into this. I'm going to start to get comfortable with what my legs can handle before I. Before I become some. Whatever is left of peak Joel Embiid. Because you see flashes here or there, but it's just going to be something to watch the. The entire year because the east is muddled and this team has. I mean, Edgecomb is way better than anyone could have anticipated right away, and they've. They've got something here, and it's just gonna be interesting to see how he fits.

B (95:16)

Yeah, I think the Sixers should feel very happy with where they are right now, given where they've been. Any semblance of optimism around Embiid combined with, oh, man, we really happened into something when we tanked the last part of the season and got the rights to draft BJ Edgecomb. Yeah, it's. It's. It's about as good of a start as you could expect for them, all things considered.

A (95:39)

One thing I wanted to clarify before we go. We mentioned we were talking about Morant trades long time ago, and I mentioned some fake Minnesota trades just because it's interesting to me. Again, last episode, I did all my Morant teams. I made a joke about how I'm pre ordering my Morant Sacramento Kings jersey. Now. I, I should have mentioned in the Minnesota discussion, I'm not convinced Morant plus Anthony Edwards is a great fit or a great idea in any case. I should just. I just wanted to clarify that because I didn't mention that part of the thing. But we have a lot of time before December 15th when trades can really start to happen. We have a lot of time for all these teams to settle into who they are, who they're not. We have a lot of time, Howard. It's very early. No. Nothing big is going to happen for a while.

B (96:25)

No. But let me ask you this, because it is way too early for this discussion, too. But sometimes it's just a gut thing. The John Morant thing feels very serious to me. Body language, actual things he is saying, the things he's not saying all of it. And it's easy for the. For people to brush off. And, and I, I think Verno did on your show the other day, like, this guy means so much to the community. I get that. I get he's super popular and as a coach, I was texting with a coach the other day who basically said, like, if they trade him, everybody's getting fired, which I get. But, like, if you keep him and he's just bringing the whole place down, you're all getting fired anyway. So what's true?

A (97:06)

Why would that be true? True. Why would. Why would the Co the coach is clearly not going to get unless the owner is just clean house.

B (97:12)

Yeah, you meant like the front office gets fired if you trade John Moran because of, because of Jaw's popularity and the importance to that franchise beyond just wins and losses. Right. And I, I get that. But there are times when something's just run its course or where things are just beyond repair. And I don't know if that's the case. I'm not asserting that it is, but I get the sense right. It, it doesn't feel great. I don't see what's going to turn this around in terms of just the demeanor and the outlook and the happiness of John Moran. So if that's the case, then that opens the door to trading him by the trade deadline.

A (97:48)

I'm glad you brought that up because one question that I asked and then did not answer on Monday was if it ever gets to that point from Memphis and they're signaling to everyone we're not considering it, which is what you're supposed to signal no matter what.

B (98:02)

But anyway, consistent with them. Yes.

A (98:04)

Is. And a question that we are sometimes guilty of overlooking in constructing fake trades and getting all excited about how he fits there is like what does Memphis actually want out of a theoretical John Morant trade? And I started to answer the question by saying on the one hand they just flipped Desmond Bain for a million first round picks, two of which they turned into Cedric Coward who looks like a potential future star. To their credit on the that's a rebuild oriented trade. The same summer they extended Jaren Jackson for a whole lot of money. That looks like a hey, we kind of want to stay in this sort of competitive with future flexibility bucket. If, if you end up moving two of your former big three, you've already moved one. If you move a second one in John Moran, are you aiming at bolstering the team around Jaren Jackson Jr. Or are you aiming at at the Cedric Coward draft picks timeline? I would have a hunch that you're aiming at that at the, at the future assets, future timeline, what are the best draft picks and young players we could get. As for related to that is the question of is everyone getting fired? I think it depends how you do in the John Morant trade because I don't like. It's great that he's popular. He's absolutely been electrifying to watch in his career. The Grizzlies have been a good team for almost his entire career. His rookie year was wildly exciting. Announced himself as a star right away. Super charismatic all of that, you know, one playoff series win. He has not played more than 67 games ever in his career and is averaging 20 points on 38% shooting and 14% shooting on threes so far this year and has been a minus on defense, is lollygagging on the floor, apparently not taking to coaching very well, and has been suspended multiple times for multiple different things. I. I think if you get. If you get a good return for a guy like that, I think you should probably not get fired. That's all.

B (100:04)

Well, also, if the organization understands that you've reached this point, not because you woke up one day and just decided you'd like to move off of him, but that he's miserable. And again, I'm saying this is theoretical, that he's miserable and he's bringing down the whole locker room, and you can't get out of this as long as he's there and disgruntled. There are times where you just have to deal with the reality as it presents itself to you. And even if that was a reality you created because you hired a coach he didn't like, or Isolo just doesn't vibe well with NBA players of this era, whatever it may be, you are where you are. So unless you're. If you could fire the coach and solve the whole thing, maybe you could argue that's the answer months after hiring him. Where else you go with this? I don't know. What is. Like, the question that we can't answer is, what is going to change John Morant's demeanor and outlook and mood? That's it. Because if it's not changing, you got to do something.

A (101:04)

Well, I. Again, go back and listen to my Monday podcast, people. If you missed it, I covered the whole Moran situation, including asking the question, like, what exactly are you unhappy about? Yeah, because the style of play is totally different. Are you really this unhappy about getting directly confronted in the locker room? Are you really this unhappy about minutes, patterns, and shorter stints and all of this? Okay, maybe you are. I don't know. All right, Howard Beck, what can we look at from you around the real ones every week, what else we got coming?

B (101:28)

Real ones every Tuesday? Couple of bigger swings that I'm working on on the web for the website for the ringer dot. So nothing to tease as of yet.

A (101:40)

All right. I don't quite see the vision there, Howard, but maybe it will come into clarity for me. Howard Beck, everybody. Thank you for your time, sir.

B (101:49)

Thank you, Zach.

A (101:51)

All right, that's it for the Zach Lowe Show. This week. Thanks to you all for listening and or watching. Thanks to Jesse, Jonathan and Mike on production. Thanks to Howard Beck for joining us today and going through a whole, whole lot of NBA stuff. We will be back on Monday with a new addition to the Zach Low Show. Who the hell knows what's going to happen over the weekend in the NBA? It's always crazy. Got a lot of big games. Got the cup. The Emirates cup is coming up. Pay attention to that on Friday. We'll see you all next week on the Zach Lowe show. Must be 21 or over in president select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over in President D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem called 1-800- gambler. Visit rg-help.com, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gambling helplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York.