SGA Lifts OKC Over Jokic, Nuggets! Plus, Should LeBron be an All Star?

Summary

The Zach Lowe Show – "SGA Lifts OKC Over Jokic, Nuggets! Plus, Should LeBron be an All Star?"

Date: February 2, 2026
Host: Zach Lowe (The Ringer)
Guests: Kurt Goldsberry, Rob Mahoney, occasional input by Bill Simmons

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Episode Overview

This episode covers a packed slate of NBA storylines as the 2026 trade deadline approaches, featuring in-depth recaps and debates on the Thunder’s emphatic win over the shorthanded Nuggets, the unsettled Giannis Antetokounmpo trade rumors, hot All-Star selection takes—particularly about LeBron James making the team—and breakdowns of recent trades. Zach is joined by analysts Kurt Goldsberry and Rob Mahoney for a lively, detail-rich roundtable.

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Key Topics & Discussion Points

1. Giannis Antetokounmpo Trade Rumors & Deadline Skirmishes

Participants: Zach, Bill, Kurt
Timestamps: 03:12–07:51

• Trade Smoke, But Is There Fire?
  • Kurt senses "legitimate efforts" are underway across the league to pry Giannis from Milwaukee before the deadline, although he has no direct info from Giannis' camp (04:16).
    • Kurt: “It feels like people are trying to do this before the deadline. I don't know if it's going to work...” (04:10)
  • Bill’s sources expect Milwaukee to kick the can to the summer: “They may kick this to the summer... Shut Giannis down with his calf injury... reassess.” (04:31)
  • Both agree: Once a star’s exit is out in the open, it’s “hard to put the toothpaste back in the tube.” (05:52)
• Front Office vs. Locker Room Tension:
  • Kurt raises urgency: If things are toxic or awkward for the Bucks, maybe they prefer to rip the band-aid now as opposed to seeking the best deal in summer (06:07).

Notable Quote:

“Once the Nespresso has spilled all over the kitchen counter, it's hard to put it back into the machine.” – Kurt Goldsberry (06:07)

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2. Thunder vs Nuggets: SGA’s MVP Statement, Denver’s Injury Dilemma

Participants: Zach, Kurt, Bill
Timestamps: 08:24–20:54

• SGA Masterclass:

  • Both Nuggets and Thunder were shorthanded, but SGA’s performance was “a masterpiece,” especially his passing (10:51–12:16).
    • Bill: “Maybe the best, the single best passing game I've ever seen him have.” (11:14)
    • Kurt: “He just picked apart the Denver defense both as a scorer and as a passer.” (10:12)
  • SGA’s assists led to 36 points and 10 threes; Kaysen Wallace particularly benefited.

• Denver’s Defense & Injury Toll:

  • Defensive lapses attributed partly to missing Christian Brown and Aaron Gordon (12:24–13:21).
  • Jamal Murray’s off night (zero baskets in the second half) credited to Lou Dort’s defense (14:41).
    • Kurt: “Reminder of how great Dort can be just by himself as a defender.” (14:41)
  • Nuggets’ depth is exposed; Gordon’s extended absence is “beyond worrisome.”

• Big Picture Takeaway:

  • In a playoff series, Denver’s ceiling depends on Aaron Gordon’s return; with him, they’re “toe to toe with the Thunder. Without him, I think the Thunder have an edge.” – Bill (20:54)

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3. MVP Race: SGA vs. Jokic, Other Contenders

Participants: Zach, Kurt, Bill
Timestamps: 21:00–26:53

• SGA’s monster minutes edge and two-way excellence are tipping the scales.
  • Zach: “SGA has given more... Jokic should have a stranglehold on number two.” (21:33, 21:46)
  • Kurt: “One of the cliches... the best ability is availability.” (22:02)
• Luka’s and Jalen Brown’s seasons discussed, with Brown cited as a “dark horse.”
  • “I just haven't heard his name enough this season for what he's been doing.” – Kurt (22:53)
• Whose case is underrated? Donovan Mitchell gets flagged.
• Brief musings about All-Star selection quirks.

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4. Trade Breakdowns: Kings/Cavs/Bulls Three-Way and Blazers/Hawks

Participants: Zach, Kurt, Bill
Timestamps: 28:31–45:00

• Kings/Cavs/Bulls:

  • Kings acquire DeAndre Hunter; Cavs get Keon Ellis and Dennis Schroeder; Bulls take on Dario Saric’s salary and two seconds.
  • Much consternation over Kings’ lack of long-term strategy.
    • Kurt: “What are we doing at 100,000 ft, not 5,000 ft?” (31:16)
  • Cavs acquire depth and are theorized to be maneuvering for future flexibility.

• Blazers/Hawks:

  • Minor move of Vit Kreche to Portland; Hawks get two seconds.
  • Zach’s hot take: Atlanta may be undervaluing 40% shooters on minimum deals (44:41).
  • Second round picks: Zach cautions that “they are a little fetishized sometimes.” (44:22)

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5. All-Star Reserves: LeBron’s Spot, Kawhi & Other Snubs

Participants: Zach, Rob, Bill
Timestamps: 48:04–56:36

• Who Made It in the West:
  • Denny Avdia and Jamal Murray’s inclusion commended.
  • SGA, Murray, Durant, Chet all called “no-brainers.”
  • Notably missing: Alperen Sengun, Kawhi Leonard, James Harden, Rudy Gobert.
    • Zach: “There’s no objective case for [LeBron] over Kawhi.” (51:40)
  • Mixed feelings on LeBron making the team; Bill: “It's an all-star game... like, it's an all... It's a game. No one can even explain how it works anymore.” (51:06)

Memorable Exchange:

“We're rewarding an all time great... but let's not pretend LeBron James has been one of the 12 best Western Conference players active this season. It's just not the case.” – Rob Mahoney (52:59)

• Format Gripe: Rant about the confusing world vs. US All-Star structure and a call to scrap it for simple rosters.

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6. “Snubs” & All-Star Game Chatter

Timestamps: 81:18–83:24

• Zach and Bill argue that to call someone a “snub” you must also say who should come off the team: “You don't just get to list 15 players and be like these guys are all snubs.” – Bill (81:42)
• Rising Stars snub discourse mocked: “You get spared from the Rising Stars game.” – Zach (82:14)
• Fun: Half-serious idea to introduce a “Team D” of snubs who have to put their own money on the line.

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7. Knicks Recent Surge & Defense Adjustments

Participants: Zach, Rob
Timestamps: 84:48–87:56

• Knicks have won six straight; shooting and energy up.
• Rob: “Not just Landry Shamet nailing down a spot, but they're just playing like eight deep right now.” (85:43)
• Mikal Bridges notes defensive changes—more “icing” on PnR.
• Joking about Tibbs-style formula being back in New York by circumstance.

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8. Rookie of the Year Race: Flag vs. Kinnable

Participants: Zach, Rob, Bill
Timestamps: 87:47–90:43

• Zach: “As of right now, it’s Khan’s shooting as a superpower... but Flag is trending up.”
• Rob: “I think I would lean Flag at this point. ... He’s able to do all that while being a difference maker defensively.” (88:40)
• Consensus: It’s close, but Flag’s all-around play, especially defensively, is making the difference.

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9. Sixers’ Latest Weirdness: Paul George’s 25-Game Suspension

Participants: Zach, Rob, Bill
Timestamps: 70:20–79:45

• Another bizarre Sixers event: Paul George suspended for violating the league’s anti-drug policy (he cites a mental health medication).
• Zach and Rob recap the Sixers’ surreal run of mishaps—fake Twitter accounts, Jalil Okafor’s speeding, Bizarre injuries, Fultz’s shooting, etc.
• Impact on Sixers: George has been an excellent (if low-usage) fourth option; losing him slightly increases the risk of slipping into the play-in, but “they’re not screwed” unless more injuries strike.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Once the Nespresso has spilled all over the kitchen counter, it's hard to put it back into the machine.” – Kurt Goldsberry (06:07)
• “Maybe the best, the single best passing game I've ever seen him have.” – Bill Simmons, re: SGA (11:14)
• “I just haven't heard [Jalen Brown’s] name enough for what he’s been doing.” – Kurt Goldsberry (22:53)
• “What are we doing at 100,000ft, not 5,000ft... it's a wish.” – Kurt Goldsberry (31:16)
• “We're rewarding an all time great... but let's not pretend LeBron James has been one of the 12 best Western Conference players active this season.” – Rob Mahoney (52:59)
• Rising Stars ‘snub’ debate: “You don't get snubbed from the Rising Stars game. You get spared.” – Zach Lowe (82:14)
• Mocking convoluted All-Star rules: “You need a whiteboard, a graphic tutorial to describe how the All Star game works.” – Zach Lowe (56:19)

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Segment Highlights & Timestamps

03:12–07:51 – All things Giannis Deadline Drama and League-wide impact
08:24–20:54 – Thunder-Nuggets game deep-dive, SGA’s MVP credentials
21:00–26:53 – MVP ladder, SGA vs. Jokic, dark horses
28:31–45:00 – Kings/Cavs/Bulls and Blazers/Hawks trade breakdowns
48:04–56:36 – All-Star reserve choices, the LeBron debate, snubs
81:18–83:24 – "Snubs" and Rising Stars snark
84:48–87:56 – Knicks’ surge and defensive tweaks
87:47–90:43 – ROY: Flag vs. Kinnable
70:20–79:45 – Sixers' bizarre run continues: Paul George's suspension

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Tone & Style

The episode is marked by rapid-fire banter, sharp sarcasm (especially about All-Star Game quirks and NBA front office follies), and dense, high-level NBA insight peppered with in-jokes. Zach Lowe’s relentless detail and willingness to nitpick, Goldsberry’s self-aware, slightly academic tone, Rob Mahoney’s measured responses, and Bill Simmons’ caustic humor all blend for an irreverent but deeply substantive podcast.

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Summary in One Sentence

Zach Lowe, with Kurt Goldsberry and Rob Mahoney, serves up a fast-paced, detail-rich roundtable dishing on the Giannis sweepstakes, SGA’s MVP-level brilliance, All-Star quibbles—especially LeBron’s curious inclusion—and the growing pains and wildcards setting the NBA ablaze as the trade deadline arrives.

Transcript

[Zach Lowe]

Every sip of coca cola brings you closer to the excitement of the FIFA world cup 26. Because nothing compares to the joy. So grab a Coke and drink in the FIFA World Cup 26. No purchase necessary. 13 in 50 US states and DC with a web enabled device. Ends March 1 with eight entry periods. [e-mail] SoccerRules Foreign. Up on the Zach Lowe show it is trade deadline week. Kurt Goldsberry and Rob Mahoney are here to help us sort through everything. We do talk about the deadline coming up.

[Bill Simmons]

We do mention the honest situation and.

[Zach Lowe]

We had actual trades over the weekend. The Kings and the Bulls were allowed to somehow trade with each other.

[Bill Simmons]

I think this should be banned, but it ended up with the kings getting DeAndre Hunter. Why?

[Zach Lowe]

How?

[Rob Mahoney]

Who?

[Zach Lowe]

Keon Ellis is involved. What happened? Portland and Atlanta made a minor trade.

[Bill Simmons]

That I kind of like for one of the teams. We get into that and then we.

[Zach Lowe]

Talk All Stars, All Star snubs, All star rosters.

[Bill Simmons]

Should LeBron be in the All Star team? We talk about the Knicks recent surge.

[Zach Lowe]

Kirk and I do a deep dive on Thunder Nuggets 1. The first clash of these two titans during the season.

[Bill Simmons]

The Thunder win easily, both teams missing lots of players. We talk about Rookie of the Year.

[Zach Lowe]

We just a whole lot of stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

Going on in the NBA as everyone gears up for these last three days before the trade deadline. So we got Kurt Goldsberry. He talks about his MVP ballot. Actually we talk about that since that's a Shay Jokic thing, as always. And then we got Rob Mahoney taking a break from all of his other podcasting to slum it on here. So that's all coming up after this on the Zach Lowe Show.

[Zach Lowe]

This episode of the Zach Lowe show is brought to you by State Farm.

[Bill Simmons]

Life's better when you've got the right help. Think of that perfect pass that sets everything up. Smooth, effortless, just what your team needed. That's the kind of assist State Farm offers, whether it's online or in person. State Farm's your teammate when you need help making your next play. State Farm with the assist. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state.

[Zach Lowe]

Welcome to the Zach Lowe Show. Kirk Goldsberry is here. It is trade deadline week. We got Thunder Nuggets last night for the first time. We got kind of the zombie versions of both teams or the half versions of both teams and Kurt Goldsberry. You know how I know it's trade deadline week?

[Rob Mahoney]

How?

[Zach Lowe]

I went to the Nespresso machine about half an hour ago, put in the Nespresso pod for the super caffeinated coffee I like before a podcast hit hit the button and didn't put my mug under where it was supposed to go. And coffee spilled all over the kitchen, baby. So that's what we're dealing with in.

[Bill Simmons]

The low household today.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Classic. Classic kitchen blunder from Zach Lowe. Tales of mediocrity secrets. To me, what is the series called? That could be right in there.

[Bill Simmons]

Insights to mediocrity. Not starring Mike Tirico, just starring me in my mediocre. So it's true.

[Zach Lowe]

I could have.

[Bill Simmons]

I could have put that in there.

[Zach Lowe]

How you doing, buddy?

[Kurt Goldsberry]

I'm doing great. Happy deadline season. Happy, you know, Denver OKC season. It's. It's great. It's about to be the part of the sports calendar where the NBA really starts to grab it. Once this super bowl is over, we get a little bit more of the spotlight.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay. We're all on Giannis Watch, obviously. We will get back to Giannis watch at the end of the pod, I guess. But do you have. And do you have any thoughts on this that you would like to get? There he is. Look at that.

[Zach Lowe]

He's wearing a crown.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I brought up. So mean. Look how mean he looks.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Well, I just keep him by my computer, so I'm literally on. I'm watching them all day. I have no updates. But, you know, it feels to me like there's. What I could say is it feels like people are trying to do this before the deadline. I don't know if it's going to work, but it feels to me like there's legitimate efforts happening across the league to try to get this done. What, what are your thoughts, Eklo?

[Bill Simmons]

When you say people, you mean people on other teams, people in Giannis's, all of those things.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

I've not talked to anybody in Giannis's camp. I'm talking to just people around the NBA and front offices far and wide, and you start to hear those kinds of rumors about what other teams are doing, what they're hearing. And that's where I started. There's a little bit of the smoke, I would say.

[Bill Simmons]

I've talked to every team that's involved, every team that would like to be involved, every team that could theoretically be involved constantly for the last four to five days. The consensus is they all are a little skeptical that the Bucks are actually going to move him now for reasons that we've discussed ad nauseum and that. That they may kick this to the summer, perhaps Shut Giannis down with his calf injury tank, see where their pick ends up, reassess. Then more teams have more picks to trade. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Uh, one.

[Bill Simmons]

One front office person on one of these teams called this a, quote, sideshow to me in, in a couple of messages saying, this is just, this is just for show. They're not going to trade them.

[Rob Mahoney]

80.

[Zach Lowe]

20.

[Bill Simmons]

They keep him is what I keep hearing. 75, 25.

[Zach Lowe]

I'm closer to 50.

[Bill Simmons]

50. And I just think a, all these teams are trying, um, and, and they're trying, you know, different kinds of things. Like the Heat only have two first round draft picks to trade. Well, they could actually go out and get a third one or do different kinds of things. They're mechanisms to do stuff. And B, man, you know this. When the toothpaste is this far out of the tube and like, look, whether he demanded a trade or asked for a trade or called the Bucks and said that it's probably best that we.

[Zach Lowe]

Part ways or whatever.

[Bill Simmons]

Linguistic stranglehold you want to put yourself in. He wants out. The Bucks know he wants out. The Bucks are listening at the very least. And once the toothpaste is all over the bathroom sink, it's just, it's hard to go back, man.

[Zach Lowe]

That's, that's just, that's why I'm saying 50.

[Bill Simmons]

50.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Once the Nespresso has spilled all over the kitchen counter, it's hard to put it back into the, into the machine. I would, I would agree, and I think that's a great point. How toxic or awkward is the situation with the player right now? How, how, how quickly do they need to move on? Because I do think there's a really good argument that they're going to get better deals in the off season. They're going to have more time, potentially more draft capital available to come back. So from a front office perspective, it's probably better to go till the spring or the summer. But from just like, how toxic is. How awkward is that locker room and that bench and those plane rides? That's the real question for the urgency, I think. Zach.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, he's not with the team now. At some point, presumably he would be again. And this is ultimately going to be the ownership's call. Right? The fact that they're listening right now doesn't. And they've not really ever listened before.

[Zach Lowe]

And by the way, I still, as.

[Bill Simmons]

As recently as, like maybe 36 to 48 hours ago, heard that even while they're listening, at least one team told me the Bucks are still Sort of floating around saying, is this, can we actually acquire X player to help us now, or can we acquire an asset to help us get a player who can help us now? So they may be pursuing two or three different fronts at the same time. It's ultimately going to be ownership's call. By the way. Great to just bow on the Nespresso story. Great power move by my wife.

[Zach Lowe]

I put the pod in hit play.

[Bill Simmons]

Hit play like It's a freaking TiVo. Went to take a shower. Multitask, right?

[Zach Lowe]

You make my coffee, I'm going to take a shower.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm going to come out, coffee's going to be ready. Obviously the coffee's on the counter. My wife just left the house. She went to her Pilates appointment and was like, I'm not cleaning this up. You clean it up when you get out of the shower, idiot. And I'm like, great move. I respect it. Like, what?

[Zach Lowe]

Have a.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

What else? What a terrible post shower revelation you had, by the way. Coming down in your bathrobe to get your hot cup of coffee and only. Only seeing a mess.

[Zach Lowe]

I'm not a robe guy. Never been a robe guy. Don't. I just never had.

[Bill Simmons]

Never had one. It's just not part of my repertoire.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Well, I know what I'm getting you for Christmas next year.

[Bill Simmons]

My neighbor will sometimes walk around the backyard in a robe that's like a little perilous. A male neighbor a little perilously short. Like if there's a breeze, I get a little tmi.

[Zach Lowe]

Let's pack it up, buddy.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay. Thunder Nuggets, obviously, both teams missing a ton of players. The Thunder during this swoon. By their standards, I think it's a 15 and 9 swoon. Their last 24 games have been missing tons of guys. The Nuggets are still even with Jokic back for the second game on a minutes restriction, missing Christian Brown, Aaron Gordon, and on and on and on with some of their absences. That said, it's highly anticipated when these two teams play each other. Their playoff series last season was sort of a proving ground for the Thunder. Thunder. Their. Their first real, like, okay, like it's on the line now. Your favorites and you're staring at a potential 3:1 deficit, game seven, all of that. What were your takeaways from the Thunder stomping the Nuggets in. In.

[Zach Lowe]

In Denver?

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Yeah, well, if I'm a Denver fan, you can just say, hey man, there's not much to take away. We're. We're half a roster right now. But so Is okc. I think both teams so shorthand it almost felt like like an international friendly in soccer where both teams are sort of half composed. But I still think there were two, two big takeaways. One about SGA and then one about Jamal Murray. So I don't know where you want to start, but really the story of the game for me was three Canadian dudes. And I think it's. It makes sense to start with SGA who just picked apart the Denver defense both as a scorer and as a passer. I think his assists led to 36 points and 10 threes. It felt like every time the Thunder had the ball they were ending that, that sequence with an open three. Many of those off of the passes of sga. I think Case and Wallace was, was the most, most common target there. But I didn't like what I saw from Denver's defense's ability to contain the Thunders three point shots. And maybe that was part of the game plan as we've seen San Antonio. So hey, make these shots. Well, they started making them and there was just no answer. And SGA was getting everywhere he wanted to get and I think he really reestablished and we talked about this on text that he's the MVP of the league right now in that game. I mean I think by comparison he was just the best player, led all scorers, led all assists, but just a really good SGA performance. That's where I would start. I don't know if the Denver defense is going to be able to contain the Thunder offense, but really if you're a Denver fan, you can go back to. Well, we don't have Gordon, we don't have Brown. Like so what, what are your thoughts, Zach?

[Bill Simmons]

My thought was masterpiece SGA game. Maybe the best, the single best passing game I've ever seen him have. And all he did was hunt every guard on Denver, every wing on Denver other than Peyton Watson. Just every single possession was I don't even care who it is. Is it Spencer Jones? Switch. Is it Tim Hardaway Jr. Switch. Is it Bruce Brown? Switch. Is it Jamal Murray?

[Zach Lowe]

Switch. Blow by and either score. Step back mid Ranger if there's no blow by.

[Bill Simmons]

And like boy am I opening up an acre of space for that. And drive and kick if the help comes. And he had a pass in the third quarter where he actually didn't get a switch. It was Watson and they came to set a pick for him and he rejected the pick and went left and got by Watson. He got into the lane and he.

[Zach Lowe]

Went up for what Would have been.

[Bill Simmons]

A lefty layup, a contested floater or something that Watson probably would have blocked her in your field. Very tough shot. And so he went to pass and.

[Zach Lowe]

I thought he was going to pass.

[Bill Simmons]

To Hartenstein, who's back by the way for the Thunder. A couple games now on the roll and it was a doomed pass. There were just too many arms in the way. It was not going to work. Hardenstein wasn't that open and he throws the pass and in midair I'm like, oh, that's not going to Hartenstein. That's going to the shooter one layer behind him. And it's like against his momentum from under the rim whips. This pass to Kayson Wallace, I think it was on the right wing and it's on target, on time and with.

[Zach Lowe]

Like a enough oomph on it that.

[Bill Simmons]

It beats the defense rotating back in case the Wallace hits a three top five pass I've ever seen Shea throw in that game.

[Zach Lowe]

And the takeaway for Denver is just.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, the guy we would have guarding him was not playing. And that's Christian Brown who has missed just an enormous amount of time now with his ankle sprain. I think I, I they're hoping it's soon, but they've been saying they're hoping it's soon and Aaron Gordon is out another four to six weeks. And I want to revisit that but my, my number one takeaway was SGA masterpiece Jokic minutes restriction. We forgot to mention Cam Johnson is missing for Denver cause he's just has barely played really for them and I kind of forgot he was on the team.

[Zach Lowe]

And Kayson Wallace seven threes.

[Bill Simmons]

Lou Dort hit a couple threes. Oklahoma City's shooting starting to normalize after what was a really long slump. And they still don't have A.J. mitchell, who's a massively important offensive player, let alone Caruso and J Dub. And on and on. It just a nice sort of emphatic win for the Thunder after Minnesota whipped them in Minneapolis over the weekend.

[Zach Lowe]

And by the way, a game that.

[Bill Simmons]

The Wolves really I was on Amazon. We were watching that in the green room. The Wolves just took it to them and puffed out their chest. Great win, awesome win.

[Zach Lowe]

I just think that's a game the Wolves should win. I'm not going to make. They've always played the Thunder tough, but.

[Bill Simmons]

After important players are missing, you're at home like you should win that game. So kudos to the Wolves for winning that game.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

And by the way, the prime stuff is great. I Texted you this weekend that I really enjoyed seeing you out there. But the talent they've assembled there, the sort of the culture that it seems like that, that you guys have, it's just. It's really refreshing. I love to see it. So kudos on behalf.

[Bill Simmons]

Do you see D. Wade cross me up on national tv?

[Kurt Goldsberry]

I thought you were going to poke it, man. I thought. I thought you could have poked it away there.

[Bill Simmons]

I didn't know. I did not know that was going to happen. We discussed it during, during pregame because I talked about how Donovan Mitchell does the sort of swing through the overhead. Swing through, like Euro swing, gather, whatever. That was really D. Wade's move. And we started talking about that. We're like, you know what, we should get out there and demonstrate it. Rudy, you can get out. Rudy Gay, you can get out there and play defense. And then Dwayne just was like, you know what? I used to do this against smaller guys. We need Zach out here for defense. They're like, this is not going to go well for me. I'm in a suit. I got no range of mot. Anyway. Any other Thunder Nuggets takeaways?

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Yeah, I think on the other end of the court, like, if you would have said, hey, what's going to happen in this game? What does Denver need to do? Well, if we know Joker's on a minutes restriction, their new All Star, Jamal Murray, who by the way, deserves to be an All Star, he needs to play really well. And I think he arguably had his worst game of the season. And I don't think that was entirely a coincidence. I would give give a lot of credit to another Canadian guy here. So we have sga, we have Jamal Murray, we have Lou Dortmund as the three Canadians. Reminder of how great Dort can be just by himself as a defender. We talk about no Caruso, no J Dub. This team is so deep. Lou Dort just really contained Jamal Murray. Jamal Murray didn't have a basket in the second half of this game. And so if you're telling me Joker's on a minute restriction and the Thunder are able to contain Jamal Murray. I mean, with all due respect to Peyton Watson, who was their. Their highest usage player in that game, Zach and I love Peyton Watson. What's happening with Peyton Watson? You're not going to beat the Thunder if Jamal Murray's not playing his A game. And Lou Dort deserves a lot of credit. Won that sort of Quebec versus Ontario matchup. Just really physical defense. And to. To give Jamal some credit, he was also great as a passer, but they needed him as a scorer if they were going to win that game. And he just didn't. Didn't show up.

[Bill Simmons]

Ludor, but very physical, chippy game, which I really enjoyed. Like Hardenstein and Jokic, it just felt like they were tangled up the entire game. People were falling over. Dort's always hitting people and flopping and falling over. I love every bit of it. And you mentioned Denver's defense. We saw them play some zone. They played a lot of zone against the Thunder in the playoffs last year. And I always flashback to game four in Denver when Kayson Wallace in particular and Isaiah Joe made some big shots against the zone to kind of save Oklahoma City season. Really, that was like the big hot house prov ground game for those young guys. And we'll see more of that. We saw them play around with Jokic. Like, sometimes he'll go up to the level of the screen against Shea, sometimes he'll drop back, Sometimes he. He won't even really be in the play. He'll be kind of just hanging out on the baseline, toggling between who's ever lower. It's.

[Zach Lowe]

It's a nice.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a fun chess match between these two teams. Aaron Gordon on Friday, I think the Nuggets said four to six weeks with this hamstring thing. This is officially, like, beyond worrisome at this point, because as great as Peyton Watson has been, and even if Christian Brown comes back and he's 100%, even if Cam Johnson comes back and he's 100%, he starts to look like the player he was the couple of weeks before he got injured. Valanchunas is now back. Strother's given him minutes off the bench. Pickett's given him minutes off the bench. Even if all that holds true, if Aaron Gordon is limited or out, I don't think these guys can beat the Thunder in a playoff series. And it sounds. I mean, with Peyton Watson's ascendancy, he plays more or less the same position as Aaron Gordon. Cam Johnson plays more or less the same position as Aaron Gordon. They're all kind of hybrid forwards, but Aaron Gordon trends toward four, four and a half. Now, it seems a little strange to say that, but I. I do feel it in my gut.

[Zach Lowe]

Do you feel that as well?

[Bill Simmons]

And if so, why?

[Kurt Goldsberry]

I mean, Gordon was so big in that series last year. That's all the evidence you need, right? It's like this guy made huge plays. He gives them an actual defensive presence at times. And the. The two Biggest concerns with the Denver Nuggets are defense and depth. And I think in a weird way, this just terrible set of injuries has given them a chance to address the depth part of this. And Peyton Watson and Pickett and some of these guys have shown that they can play, which I think is really encouraging if they all get healthy. But even in that case, I'm still worried about the defense. And Aaron Gordon, to me, is about the only one, maybe Christian Brown, who can get this defense to the level it would need to be in a series to beat this Thunder team. Really. And this is more about the Thunder. They have excellence on both ends of the court, and we saw that last night. Excellence on both ends of the court. And I just don't see that from Denver without Aaron Gordon.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, and also just I mentioned how he plays more or less the same position as those other players. Stylistically, he's completely different and that is what makes him special for. For Denver. He's. Peyton Watson was the primary on SGA last night, so he trends toward quicker, quick, twitch players on defense, maybe even smaller players. Aaron Gordon's the total opposite. Like, if J Dub had played last night, that's going to be his assignment. If you face Kawhi in the playoffs, that's going to be his assignment. No one else has the dunker spot chemistry with Jokic that Aaron Gordon does. Aaron Gordon's a 40% plus three point shooter now. That's like a proven thing, which is a big deal when you play the Thunder because they love to do the thing where they put Hartenstein on Jokic and have Chet just lurking around the rim for shop blocks like the Wolves would do with Gobert and Towns. And he got a block like that on a Jokic post up last night. Well, Gordon can stretch him out to three now.

[Zach Lowe]

And like as much as Watson's been.

[Bill Simmons]

A wonderful substitute for Gordon, you can.

[Zach Lowe]

Now play them together.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, if Peyton Watson's three is real, that's a lineup that they've barely gotten to explore.

[Zach Lowe]

I looked it up today.

[Bill Simmons]

Jokic, Gordon, Watson, that Trio has played 77 minutes this season, right?

[Kurt Goldsberry]

That's crazy.

[Bill Simmons]

That's nothing. They're plus 59 in 77 minutes with those three on the floor, which is very good. So, you know, look, he's one of my favorite players to watch in the entire league. He found nirvana in Denver. It was the rare thing where the perfect player finds the perfect team and he finds his perfect water level and role with that team and grows to love it. And it's a Special connection that he has with Jokic that the city has with aggressive. Obviously, he's been through a lot in the last year with his brother passing away, and you just hope for the best that he can come back and play and this team could really give it a shot, because without him, I just. I think they're with him. I think they're toe to toe with the Thunder. Like, absolutely. They're equal without him. I think the Thunder have an edge.

[Zach Lowe]

And that's about all I have on this game. Oh, mvp. I guess we're obligated.

[Bill Simmons]

I would.

[Zach Lowe]

I would say. Can I just not. Can I just wait? Is that okay? Like, is it all right if I wait the last 30 games? Jokic, if he doesn't miss any more.

[Bill Simmons]

Games, will get to 66 and he'll be eligible.

[Zach Lowe]

I see your little ballot back there. You've got him second. I think for now, like, that's appropriate. Shay has played 450 to 500 more.

[Bill Simmons]

Minutes than SGA then Jokic. He's shooting 56% from the floor.

[Zach Lowe]

He's incredible.

[Bill Simmons]

He's a plus defender.

[Zach Lowe]

Jokic is the best player in the league. But that minutes gap.

[Bill Simmons]

If you add up production per minute and add the minutes gap, SGA has given more. I do think Jokic should have a stranglehold on the number two spot because he's just been that good. He's on pace to set more advanced stats records this year.

[Zach Lowe]

And the rest of the board to me is like, wake me up in.

[Bill Simmons]

The last two weeks of the season when I can look at it. I see you have Luka as three. I think that's Luca ceiling in the MVP raise. Giannis obviously ain't going to be in it. Victor ain't going to be in it. And Jalen Brown, Jalen Brunson.

[Zach Lowe]

That's fine. That's a good list.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

My dark horse. And by the way, I think SGA has just as good of a case as he did last year. Maybe arguably better. Like, we're talking about how shorthanded this team is. One short note on Hardenstein. They look a lot more dangerous when he's. He's in there. And I know that's common sense to a lot of Thunder fans, but there was a couple times last night where just you could feel his presence. Chad's free to be that free safety coming through. And even in the instances where Murray got past Lou Dort, Chet was there, as you describe, to clean it up a couple of times and make those shots impossible for Jamal. Once he got Passed. But, yeah, the sga. You'd have to convince me that somebody's going to pass him, because one of the cliches that I do think is relevant for value is the best ability is availability. And by the end of the year, if this keeps up, he's just going to have played more meaningful minutes, had more sort of impactful moments, and his stats are going to be there again. Last night, again, he was the best player on that court. The long shot. You asked me to come up with a long shot. My favorite long shot on the board behind me is the one in Boston. And I don't think Jalen Brown's getting enough credit for this crazy season the Celtics are having. He's completely changed his approach on offense. The Celtics keep winning. Keep winning. And again, one of your main points is like, we don't have to. We don't have to map this out right now. We don't have to make our votes right now, but we have about two months of the regular season left, and if Boston takes that number one in the Eastern Conference, and that's an if. Jaylen Brown deserves a lot of attention on this board. I don't think he's getting as much as he deserves. I don't think he's the. The MVP favorite by any means, but I just haven't heard his name enough this season for what he's been doing.

[Bill Simmons]

I feel like I've heard it quite a bit.

[Zach Lowe]

I think you have.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

I just don't think there's enough Boston voices in the national media.

[Bill Simmons]

That's tough. Patriots, super bowl, no one's talking about Drake May. I think he's gotten the appropriate amount of MVP attention.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

You think so?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. I mean, he's awesome. You have him in about the right range there. I think you could put him third. I don't. I can't quite get there. Although I don't love the season that Luka is having, sort of holistically, it's hard to make an argument for him over Luka as long as the Lakers keep winning more games than they really should have any right to be without Austin Reeves, you know, Jalen Brown's been awesome. The Celtics are plus 5 with him on the floor and plus 12 with him on the bench.

[Zach Lowe]

And I'm not really going to penalize him for that because you watch this.

[Bill Simmons]

Team, they are just a fucking professional basketball team, man. They play so hard. They do not make mistakes. Their spacing is impeccable. And if your effort wanes by 2 or 3%, even if you're Jaylen Brown.

[Zach Lowe]

Missoula will take your ass out of.

[Bill Simmons]

The game and put in someone else.

[Zach Lowe]

Who'S going to play hard. And they're just like they, they're just.

[Bill Simmons]

A professional every single night basketball team. One of the great stories of the season.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, I mean I look and part of it it's interesting because Shea has.

[Bill Simmons]

Played what did I say, 450, 500 more minutes than Jokic.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

That number would, would even be larger.

[Bill Simmons]

If he ever had to play in the fourth quarter for the first 25 games of the season. And he never did.

[Zach Lowe]

And you, and yet I think you.

[Bill Simmons]

Some skeptics, not me, could use that almost as a cut against SGA's case saying his team around him is so good.

[Zach Lowe]

Doesn't that cut against the valuable part of mvp? And I would say absolutely not.

[Bill Simmons]

Look at their offense without him for the last couple of seasons and just.

[Zach Lowe]

They'Re plus 16 with Shay on the.

[Bill Simmons]

Floor and plus six with him off the floor and a lot of that plus six is terrible opponent shooting which they certainly influence.

[Zach Lowe]

But to me, you know, plus six.

[Bill Simmons]

Is a good team. Plus 16 is an immortal team. And as good as the team is around him, they become a completely different thing with him on the floor. So he's the MVP right now.

[Zach Lowe]

My, my. Look, I don't know.

[Bill Simmons]

3, 4, 5. You got to have Luka there somewhere. Jalen. Both Jalens. You have all the Jalens.

[Zach Lowe]

A lot of it is just going.

[Bill Simmons]

To be like what, what do these teams records end up being right? Does Steph sneak into the fifth spot if the warriors overperform the Anthony Edwards? I think if the Wolves are the, if we wake up and they're the fourth seed, he's going to get a lot of support, including from me. I. Donovan Mitchell never comes up and I'm just like, I don't really understand that. He's statistically on par with the Brunson, Maxi Brown ant, et cetera. He's lifting up this team where everything around him has been a little bit rickety all season. And I just want to flag this Kurt Goldsberry just for shits and giggles. Kawhi's only missed 13 games so far this season.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Oh my God, he can't even make the All Star team.

[Bill Simmons]

I know he's not going to. He's not going to though. He is on pace for 65 games.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

He will not make it. But the nerds around the NBA just let out a very collective giant gasp with those All Star reserves. I know you're going to talk about that later.

[Zach Lowe]

You know what I gasped about? What did you see Moussa? See, say, kip up in the middle of a basketball game against Houston on Saturday. Do you know what a kip up is?

[Kurt Goldsberry]

You're going to embarrass me on the Zach Low show right now.

[Zach Lowe]

It's that ninja thing when you're on your back and you kind of like snap up like Shawn Michaels.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Jack. I associate that with the great Bo Jackson.

[Zach Lowe]

So I'm on a flight back from.

[Bill Simmons]

LA and I'm watching Mavs Rockets and then we land and we're stuck on the tarmac and they shut off the entertainment system so I don't want to watch on my phone. And I see people tweeting that Moussa Sise kipped up during a game that he blocked a shot, fell down on the floor, spectacular shot block and kipped up. And I'm like, I mean, they've got to be exaggerating. And I get in the car and I throw the game on. I'm in the backseat, I throw the game on.

[Zach Lowe]

Like this motherfucker kept up while an NBA game was going on and did it like a freaking ninja. He should be in the All Star Game just for this. That's what made me gasp.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Okay, let's hope. Let's hope the producers at Amazon don't have you try to. To recreate that moment with D Wade out there. You kip up after he. He knocks you down.

[Bill Simmons]

Look, they gotta. If I'm gonna do that, they gotta have me sign some liability. Whatever. They should have had me do that before Dwight almost elbowed me in the face for a flagrant.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

He's a D. Once he gets going.

[Bill Simmons]

He'S going to break a great guy. Dwid.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay, Couple trades over the weekend.

[Bill Simmons]

I wanted to get your take on the Sacramento Kings.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

They're back.

[Zach Lowe]

Your Sacramento Kings, Kurt Goldsberry.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Well, your Sacramento Kings as well, by the way, because this hit on one of my favorite Zach Low show recurring bits. Which team should never be allowed to trade with each other again all year.

[Zach Lowe]

Even though it's a side. There's Bulls are a little side, a little side in this deal. I just. We got to just sever the connection. You can't trade between Sacramento and Chicago anymore. No more Kings are allowed to be Bulls.

[Bill Simmons]

No more Bulls are allowed to be Kings.

[Zach Lowe]

The Kings acquired DeAndre Hunter from the Cleveland Cavaliers. Rip to the DeAndre Hunter as the fifth starter, fifth closer lineup that everyone dreamed of. That sort of came to Fruition for little bits and pieces and then fell away in exchange. The Cavaliers get two more guards. Keon Ellis, much discussed, and Dennis Schroeder less discussed. And the Bulls take on Dario Sarich's salary. And they get two second round picks for their troubles.

[Bill Simmons]

So the big names are obviously Hunter, Schroeder Ellis. The deal leaves the Cavs with the following small to small ish guards. Garland Mitchell, Sam Merrill, Dennis Schroeder, Lonzo ball, Craig Porter Jr. It's a lot of guards. Yeah, it's a lot of guards, a lot small guards. DeAndre Hunter gives the Kings an actual forward, like a real forward sized forward, which they desperately need. They take on a little more money. His deal. DeAndre Hunter's deal expires though after next season's Dennis Schroeder's more or less does. It's only $4 million guaranteed in 27. And Keon Ellis goes to the Cavs.

[Zach Lowe]

There was a lot of talk that.

[Bill Simmons]

The Kings could have gotten a first round pick for Keon Ellis. I think that was overstated. I don't think they could have multiple seconds. Maybe definitely a second. And instead they decided our profit from Keon Ellis, the asset we're going to get is dumping Dennis Schroeder's salary that no one understood why we gave him in the first place, and acquiring DeAndre Hunter, who Scott Perry and the Kings do like. I mean Scott Perry has liked DeAndre Hunter for a while. Your thoughts, Kurt Goldsberry?

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Well, I'm going to ask you some questions because my thoughts are what the hell are the Kings doing? It's a tradition, unlike.

[Zach Lowe]

Is that just a general thought though.

[Bill Simmons]

Like a permanent thought?

[Kurt Goldsberry]

I think so.

[Zach Lowe]

One, two, three. Nick, what was it?

[Bill Simmons]

One, two, three. Yay, Nick Stauskas.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Stouskis. Shout out to David Jacoby seminal short video on, on that draft. But.

[Bill Simmons]

I actually, it was Nick rocks, I think, which is, which is even worse. I would have resigned, I think if I had to chant Nick Rocks into a speakerphone. I think I would resign. I just would have been like, this isn't for me.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

You would at least gotten up and made an espresso because it had been a long night at that time. You've had a few long nights, but it would have been a nice cool way not to participate in that awkward sort of ceremony. I like this from Cleveland's perspective and again, it's a head scratcher from Sacramento's perspective. The, the, the, the, the interesting thing with the Kings again is just what are we doing at 100,000ft, not 5,000ft. Not with Keon Ellis, maybe not even with DeAndre under. But what is the, what is the plate tectonic movement we're trying to achieve here as a franchise? Where is our timeline? A strategy without a timeline. Zach Lowe is a wish. And it feels like the Kings, they're just wishing to be a good NBA team. You know, it's like I, I don't know what they're doing. They've fired coaches, they've retooled the front office and they've traded players like Tyrese Halliburton Dear and Fox Harrison Barnes who are contributing around the league at very high levels. They've gotten rid of Michael Malone, they've gotten rid of Mike Brown. For me, you can't evaluate this deal from the Kings perspective, the Kang's perspective, without that sort of set of bullets leading up to. And it just. DeAndre Hunter, like the Cavs didn't like him enough. Obviously the Hawks didn't love him enough. And now you're going to sign up for it. And Bobby Marks has this in his column. They're now projected to be over the luxury tax, flirting with aprons for what? What are we doing? What are we doing? Zach Lowe?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, look, they added some salary for sure. They opted against re signing Keon Ellis or extending him, which was another option. I think, I think they probably feared our coaches and playing him. If we pay him 12 to 14 million dollars a year, is he going to be like Terrence Man 2.0 where he goes from trade asset to dead money in the blink of an eye? Look, an alternate history is like you could just not, you could just not trade for Dario Sarich, which you did to save money to sign Dennis Schroeder, which you could also just not do that. And then you could be trading from a position of strength and get something for Keone Ellis and not have DeAndre Hunter's $22 million salary on your books for whatever reason? Maybe it evinces that they want to be a little bit more competitive next season. Look, I don't, I don't love it. I don't. I'm not up in arms about it. The sequence doesn't really make a lot of sense.

[Zach Lowe]

And for the Cavs, like I, I thought DeAndre Hunter, I.

[Bill Simmons]

They traded Levert who was on an expiring contract last year and George Yang who was not on an expiring contract for Hunter. And I think they traded some pick swaps and some other stuff. I thought that was a worthy gamble. For them because his three and theoretical D off ball skill set I thought fit what Cleveland needed from that spot better than LeVert did who needed the ball. And Yang was just probably going to not be a huge part of their playoff rotation.

[Zach Lowe]

And for like little glimpses here and.

[Bill Simmons]

There, you could see why it could work and what division was like against Miami in that first round series. DeAndre Hunter went bananas from three, shot 46% from three in the playoffs before he got hurt in Game 1 of the Pacer series, then came back, he wasn't quite himself. Shot 40% from three as a, as a Cav. And then this year the three point shot fell off. And when the three point shot falls off, yeah, the defensive value is not there, the rebounding is not there, the on ball skills are not there, the salary is too big. And so here we are and we'll just sort of see where they go from here. You know, obviously like if you have Schroeder and Ellis, you are somewhat hedging on Darius Garland's health. Like all of this is insurance in case he just isn't right. And we got a lot of guards who can handle the ball. Ellis can play next to pretty much any kind of guard and if he makes enough threes as a decent defensive player, I like Kean Ellis a lot. And we'll see what they do with this glut of guards like his Alonzo salary dump coming, I don't know.

[Zach Lowe]

But it's, it's a, you know, they.

[Bill Simmons]

Turned DeAndre Hunter into a good asset in Keon Ellis and we'll see what happens with Shooter. And the Bulls are here. The Bulls.

[Zach Lowe]

High Bulls.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

I mean the thing comes across your phone and your, your head immediately goes to Zach Lowe's bit about the Kings and Bulls. I mean what are the chances? Hilarious moment. From the Cavs perspective, it's much more interesting, right. Cause they, they're a contender and I'm tempted to get the wind horse fingers going because there is some salary cap maneuvering happening. They now have a log and there are certain transactions they could make to get into different tax categories and open up their agility as a trade partner. So now do you move Lonzo ball? Do you try to get, do you try to just become a cheaper basketball team so you can then use other trade tools that are not available to them in the second apron? That's something to watch. There are are obviously rumors that I haven't reported about them being interested in Giannis Antetokounmpo. Does this strike you Zach As a potential first move in a sort of a sequence of chess moves to make a bigger deal.

[Bill Simmons]

Right now, I would say no. They are and have been interested in Giannis. I don't sense that they're in it right now. That could always or everyone's in it to some degree. Like all the teams that want to be interested are checking in and seeing whatever. I don't sense that they're one of the most in it of the in it teams. Their dream, I think logic dictate logic. Just my logic dictates that their dream would have been like a Garland Allen combination. Somehow again, they can't aggregate salaries until they're under the second apron and yada yada yada. Obviously Garland's trade value has taken a huge hit this year with his availability issues. He's got another foot injury now to the other foot. But Allen has been just fine, like up and down. You know, he's got a raise coming because of his new contract. And so then I think you have to. You would have to pivot to Mobley and that's would be maybe the single best player the Bucks could theoretically get. Any honest trade, present day player, not draft asset, actual current NBA player. It's a tougher decision for the Cavs and I'm not sure at 30 and 21 and playing quite well, 8 and 2 in their last 10, sniffing home court. Well, they're tied for home court now with the Raptors in the first round at the four spot, sniffing a two or three seed. Are you ready to make that kind of bet now? Maybe you are, maybe you're not, I don't know, but my gut would say no. Also interestingly for the Kings, you know, they've got Sabonis sitting there, DeRozan sitting there, Levine sitting there. I've heard nothing on Levine. I don't think they have a market for Levine, particularly if the Bucks are just out as sort of a desperation buyer, which maybe they are, maybe they're not. I'm not sure what, if anything, they have for Sabonis. The Raptors have been mentioned a lot for him. I think that's probably been overstated and would require the Kings to take back money that maybe they don't want. We'll see. I'm sure the Raptors have had calls with them. I think. I think pre AD injury, the Raptors were a little bit more interested in AD than Sabonis. The Wiz have been mentioned. I don't see it. My guess with the Wiz is that would be like, are you going to give us something to take him? We're not giving you any very young players, et cetera, et cetera. So they may be stuck with all their guys. So light the beam, I guess. Does the beam still work?

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Unclear to me. It might be down for repairs. Sort of like the Kennedy Center. It might be getting some renovations.

[Bill Simmons]

The beam beam was fun. That was a fun season. Hasn't been so fun for the kids since then.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

The thing I'm tempted to do, it puts some students on this at the University of Texas are teams that are actively using the trade tool. The three team building tools that glow. You got the draft, you got trades, and you got free agency. I'm starting to have this hypothesis that I've been too lazy or too busy to test. The teams that are really active with the trade tool just generally don't succeed. And again, I think it's an interesting concept. You constantly break up your team. You make everybody in your locker room sort of not trust the organization. Like, I could be next. Our teams that are super active in the trade market, generally less successful NBA teams. Just something to think about.

[Rob Mahoney]

About.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, that's a tough one because there are so many different kinds of trades, right? Like they're. The Yanis trade we're talking about is, well, we're going to have to like completely upend our team. And is it worth doing that now? Then you have like the deadline win now final piece trades which, you know, rarely result in what you think they're going to result in. Then you have the super duper star trades. You trade everything for a superstar from the buying team's perspective that have been, let's just say, hit or miss. Then you just have like a team like the Hornets who spent the past two years just doing little tiny things to accumulate their asset trove. And now they're winning like gangbusters, by the way.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Hell yeah. They're fun too.

[Zach Lowe]

Look, Bill's like, you can't come on the Hornets bandwagon. I'm not trying to get on the Hornets bandwagon. I think I took to over on.

[Bill Simmons]

The Hornets before the season.

[Zach Lowe]

The only thing I he's basing this all on when we did the league pass rankings and I thought it was a little ridiculous that he took the Hornets at fourth in our draft or something. In retrospect, not ridiculous. They're entertaining to watch. They're very entertaining. They've always been entertaining. They're more entertaining than I thought. I am. I have like, I have stood by Lamelo like a, like a Jilted, cuckolded husband standing by their wife for years and years as all the slanders come in. And I've said I've not given up on this guy. You can't teach the size, the vision, the shooting. I don't want to hear it. I don't want to hear it.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm Lamelo's guy.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Well, I'll let you and Bill sort that out. I did see the barbs going back and forth on social media.

[Zach Lowe]

No, I don't even engage.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't even.

[Zach Lowe]

You go low, we go high. Okay.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Okay. Michelle, I would say that I think Charlotte Charles Lee, Josh Long staff. That coaching staff finally has something cooking. They have this long winning streak. They beat my spurs in a respectable way the other night. Con canipple has a lot. I saw you talking about this has a lot of juice for rookie of the year over Cooper, his college teammate. Brandon Miller's playing well.

[Bill Simmons]

That's what's changed their season is more than anything else. Brandon Miller is healthy.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And has been.

[Zach Lowe]

If you look at his last 10.

[Bill Simmons]

To 15 games, it's like, okay, this.

[Zach Lowe]

Is like 25, 5 and 5 on.

[Bill Simmons]

Efficient shooting, finding his way as a decision maker, as a mismatch exploiter in both sides directions. That's what's changed their season.

[Zach Lowe]

And my guy, my guy, Musa Diabate. Did you see we revived the Marc Gasol All Stars on Amazon?

[Bill Simmons]

I just saw that.

[Zach Lowe]

My favorite guys to watch.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

And I didn't know you got the rights to that.

[Zach Lowe]

Get your antlers up, baby. Moussa, all that dude does is play harder than the hardest playing guy on your favorite team. Moussa, I want a little moose antlers. Do they have the horn? Do the Hornets have like souvenir moose antlers? If they don't, they should.

[Bill Simmons]

And I'll buy one.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Very teal antlers.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay, real quick.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Tr that's a good one.

[Zach Lowe]

You got to go one last trade. Vit Kreche to the Blazers for drop.

[Bill Simmons]

Wreath and two second round picks to Atlanta. Your thoughts? Kurt Goldsberry.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Atlanta had too many canards. That's what I said. Too many canards in the coal mine. I think. I think there were just too many of that. That meant too many player types. We have Kispert now, remember on that roster, thanks to the Trey Young deal, we have Vit and then we have canard and not to mention sort of Reese's Shay floating around in that pool. I just think they had a log jam like the Cavs have in the backcourt. At this sort of wing 40% 3 point shooting category and saw an opportunity to lighten the load on the depth chart. I don't see much else to it from Atlanta's perspective and for Portland shooting is the weakness and Vit can shoot it and that's about it. So what are your thoughts?

[Zach Lowe]

I'm going to come out right now Kurt goes but I got a hot.

[Bill Simmons]

Take on this trade.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay, I don't like this trade for Atlanta. I get the second round picks are great.

[Bill Simmons]

They got a couple of second round picks including I think they got their own back next season. Yay.

[Zach Lowe]

And you know look, maybe they'll, maybe there's going to be a decision tree.

[Bill Simmons]

Where they hit on these picks and.

[Zach Lowe]

Vid Creche is a 10th guy and.

[Bill Simmons]

He'S, he's not, you know if you do the little calculator on pick value.

[Zach Lowe]

He'S not more valuable than the 38th pick plus the 52nd pick or whatever. Maybe, maybe I think second round picks are a little fetishized sometimes you go, you look at, you look at some.

[Bill Simmons]

Second rounds on basketball reference like oh my God, this is like half these guys didn't even play in the NBA.

[Zach Lowe]

And V Kreche is a 40% three point shooter. Yes he is and this is what.

[Bill Simmons]

It comes down to for me.

[Zach Lowe]

Minimum contract this year 2.7 million non guaranteed next year $3 million basically minimum.

[Bill Simmons]

Team option in 27, 28.

[Zach Lowe]

I think that guy's shooting percentage on that contract is more valuable than two.

[Bill Simmons]

First round picks Portland, this second round picks, this is second round picks rather Portland, this is a player type they need with all the guard injuries they've had and all the shooting issues they've.

[Zach Lowe]

Had and it shows me they want to at least give the play and on a shot this year their 10th.

[Bill Simmons]

Their 10th and ain't no one looking like they're going to catch them. Maybe Memphis if they ever get it.

[Zach Lowe]

Together and so I like it for Portland get a good player for two second round picks on a great contract. I like it V Craichy I don't care if I have too many canards. Luke Kennard, is he going to play in the playoffs?

[Bill Simmons]

Who knows?

[Zach Lowe]

Is Corey Kisper going to play in the playoffs? Maybe. I like both those players. I like Kisperg more than Canard but.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

I don't know are the Hawks going to be in the playoffs? Hey.

[Bill Simmons]

I'll tell you right now the.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Spurs don't want him there, I'll tell you that much.

[Bill Simmons]

Zach club the Hawk The Hawks are 24 and 27. The Bulls are 24 and 26. Just not enough with the Bulls.

[Zach Lowe]

24 and 26 again.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

That's. That's the most. As Trey Kirby would say, this is what the Bulls are. They're 24 and 26. They were born to be 24 and 26.

[Bill Simmons]

The Hornets are now 22 and 28. Let's go on a sick on a six game streak. A game behind the Hawks, two games behind the Bulls. Look, I don't care what chicanery Adam Silver has to resort to, okay? Get the. Get the Hornets in the play in.

[Zach Lowe]

The Bulls, the Hawks.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm tired. I'm tired.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Let's do it.

[Zach Lowe]

Get the Hornets in the play in. You want to see? How about Pistons, Hornets, first round playoff series? Knicks, Hornets, first round playoff series. That's what we want to see. And those teams like the Hornets will go out there and mess around and win game one of those series and be like, oh, my God, here we are. All right, Kirk Goldsberry, go on with your life.

[Bill Simmons]

Thank you, sir.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Thank you, Zach.

[Zach Lowe]

This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra.

[Bill Simmons]

A superior beer worth playing for. It's always a fun way to spice up a little friendly competition.

[Zach Lowe]

Like, hey, poker night, Suburban dad, loser poker night.

[Bill Simmons]

If you don't want to throw a.

[Zach Lowe]

Lot of money into the pot, maybe you throw some beer into the pot.

[Bill Simmons]

Who knows?

[Zach Lowe]

All Star Game. Is alcohol a way to motivate the players to play a little harder in the All Star game?

[Rob Mahoney]

Maybe.

[Zach Lowe]

I don't know.

[Bill Simmons]

It can't hurt. Have a little beer on the bench.

[Zach Lowe]

Maybe spice things up. Who knows? You might as well at this point. And if you really want to up the ante, Michelob Ultra has a new challenge for you.

[Bill Simmons]

And it isn't just beer on the line. You could also win tickets to some of the biggest sporting events in 2026. Enter now at michelopultra.com ultrainstructor Michelob Ultra Ultra Instructor. No purchase necessary. Open to US residents 21 or over. Begins on January 30, 2026 and ends on February 22, 2026. See official [e-mail] rules for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes and details.

[Zach Lowe]

Look who it is from Group Chat, Prestige tv. Watching the Pit. Rob Mahoney. How you doing, Zach?

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm living in the pit. I'm just, you know, I'm scrubbing up. I'm getting my gloves on. I'm really, like, getting into. I don't know, it's like repairing some Arteries, I guess I don't know what they're asking me to do, but I'm ill qualified for it, I can assure you.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm out on the pit. Sorry.

[Rob Mahoney]

Tough.

[Zach Lowe]

Don't like your job.

[Bill Simmons]

Frankly, the pit seems to be rolling on just fine.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay, couple quick things we got to get to Rob Mahoney. The All Star reserves were revealed on Sunday night. Let's start in the west where we.

[Bill Simmons]

Have some notable things that occurred.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, where do you want to start?

[Zach Lowe]

The West All Star reserves in alphabetical order. Denny Avdia, Devin Booker, Kevin Durant, Anthony.

[Bill Simmons]

Edwards, Chet Holmgren, LeBron James and Jamal Murray.

[Zach Lowe]

Among the snubberoos, Alper and Shengun and Kawhi Leonard.

[Bill Simmons]

And then a bit of a drop off to James Harden, Rudy Gobert, Julius Randall, blah blah blah.

[Zach Lowe]

Your reactions.

[Bill Simmons]

Rob Mahoney.

[Rob Mahoney]

Let's, let's start positive. Jamal Murray, Denny Avdia. I'm glad they made it completely justified, obviously incredibly worthy candidates, but they're in that zone where I'm like, are enough people watching the Blazers to fully appreciate Denny Avdia? And like, does he have the name, does he have the reputation to make it over a James Harden type candidate, for example? I'm just glad those guys are here. So before we get into like the, the grousing, I just want to say good work getting in two worthy first time all Stars who have more than deserved consideration and more than deserve their spots.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, you're done. That's it.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's all I got.

[Bill Simmons]

So.

[Zach Lowe]

So when I last did this, the.

[Bill Simmons]

Last pass I took was probably two weeks ago. My reserves, in addition to the five starters who are in. So that's Lucas, Steph Wemby, Shay Jokic, no notes. My reserves at that point were ant, no brainer, Murray, no brainer, Durant, no brainer. I had Chet, who I saw some people did not have. I think he deserves to be in and not because the Thunder are so dominant, because he's been really good and other candidates like Markkanen and Butler kind of faded away. I had Denny, you could nitpick the Blazers record. They're good when he's on the floor and bad when he's off the floor.

[Rob Mahoney]

He's awesome.

[Bill Simmons]

I had Booker in the end. I was convinced that I was incorrect. A month and a half ago when I did an odd booker. I put Booker in and then I had. And then I had Shen Goon.

[Zach Lowe]

And in the last two weeks, Shen.

[Bill Simmons]

Gun has gotten injured, missed a lot of shots and just kind of been, eh. And I probably in the end would have put Kawhi in over Sengun at that last spot. Kwai's played 35 of 48 games and he's just. He's been like MVP level, almost good without the floor and he didn't make it. It would have been obviously hilarious if he were to make it for obvious reasons.

[Zach Lowe]

And I'm actually a little surprised that the coaches did Adam Silver's work for him and gave LeBron not quite a lifetime achievement spot. But I just don't think there's any.

[Bill Simmons]

Argument that LeBron James, on the merits of the 28 games he's played this season, or 31 games, rather. I'm sorry, isn't is an All Star.

[Zach Lowe]

And I actually thought the coaches were.

[Bill Simmons]

Not going to put him on and leave it up to Adam Silver to decide whether, if there's no certainty about what's happening, if LeBron should be in the game like Dirk and D. Wade were back in the day and the coaches did it for him and gave him a spot. And look, it's the All Star Game.

[Zach Lowe]

Like, it's an all.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a game. Nobody can even explain how it works anymore other than it's us versus the world, which is great. Like the idea. Don't like the format. It's a showcase of the game, its history, its present, its future.

[Zach Lowe]

And LeBron should be a part of that if he deigns to participate, which.

[Bill Simmons]

He did not last season. So I'm not going to sit here and be like, this is outrageous.

[Rob Mahoney]

He's averaging.

[Bill Simmons]

He's averaging 21, 6 and 6, 51% shooting. Like the Lakers haven't been very good when he's been on the floor. I don't think he's an All Star.

[Zach Lowe]

But I'm not going to sit here.

[Bill Simmons]

And like yell and scream about it.

[Zach Lowe]

There just isn't it.

[Bill Simmons]

There's no objective case for him over Kawhi. It's just like there, there's just no way to make it.

[Rob Mahoney]

No, I think that's what's kind of a bummer about this particular avenue. No one would be upset about LeBron being at the All Star Game and involved in the All Star Game. But by putting him in through just like normal reserve means. To me, that's pretending this is something else. To me, that's pretending that this is, as you say, an actual case on the merits for him to be an All Star when it's just there's no grounds for it. And, and like the, the Kawhi comparison is so apt because he just has been better at almost all of the LeBron stuff, short of the playmaking than LeBron has been this season. And he's played more and he's, he's played more. He's carried a much bigger workload in doing it. And frankly, like the Clippers with Kawhi on the court and the Lakers with LeBron on the court, like, I just don't even see an argument for like, for the Lakers record even pushing him over the top. And so what are we doing here? We're rewarding an all time great. We're rewarding a player who, yeah, it's great to have him involved in a game like this and it's great to be able to look back 20, 30 years from now and see him there. But let's not pretend that this is real. Let's not pretend that this is something that everyone got together and said. LeBron James has been one of the 12 best Western Conference players active this season. It's just not the case.

[Bill Simmons]

It is not. And again, I'm not going to be super mad. I actually think Shen Goon has probably been better than LeBron.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think so too. I think Shangoon. I probably, I probably would have gone Harden over LeBron. I probably would have gone Julius Randall over LeBron.

[Bill Simmons]

I think they're all, they've all been better than LeBron. And again, like, no problem with LeBron being there. I get what the game is and what it isn't. Randall's been great. Gobert's been very good for the most part.

[Zach Lowe]

Harden, you know, it's.

[Bill Simmons]

I, I can't believe I'm saying this in 2026. It actually makes me a little sad how much of an afterthought he was in the All Star conversation. And I realize that's more about the west than it is about him, but even as a couple other candidates I mentioned fell away. Yeah, he didn't even make some like, short list honorable mentions in some places that I saw. And look, he's not the most efficient shooter anymore. We know that He's a zero on defense for the most part. He, like, he plays. He, he plays. He's a fulcrum of an offense.

[Zach Lowe]

Much like I think Shen Goon is.

[Bill Simmons]

Sort of underrated as the hub of a lot of what the Rockets do. Sure. Offensively, even though he hasn't been as efficient as you'd like a big man.

[Zach Lowe]

To be, what he can do as.

[Bill Simmons]

A passer in the short roll from the post, finding Amen Thompson on cuts, sort of unlocking the little juice there is to be squeezed out of Houston's lack of spacing.

[Zach Lowe]

I feel for him, but look, I.

[Bill Simmons]

Mean, it's the All Star Game, and.

[Zach Lowe]

We, we also have, like. If Giannis doesn't play, which I'm su.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm assuming he's not going to.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, for sure.

[Bill Simmons]

There's the issue of an injury replacement.

[Zach Lowe]

I believe he's the only. Is he the only injury replacement right now?

[Rob Mahoney]

I believe so, unless we get someone who is like, ends up sitting out with a minor injury that they want to rest. But as far as who we know of, I think Giannis is the only one on the.

[Zach Lowe]

So I'm going to admit this, Rob.

[Bill Simmons]

I didn't ask this to the NBA because I just can't.

[Zach Lowe]

I can't, I can't. It's not worth my time. Yeah, but if, If Giannis has to.

[Bill Simmons]

Be replaced, does he have to be.

[Zach Lowe]

Replaced with an Eastern Conference player?

[Rob Mahoney]

I believe so.

[Bill Simmons]

Does he have to.

[Zach Lowe]

Does he have to be. And so does he have to be replaced with another world player? Because I think we have a perfect.

[Bill Simmons]

16 and 8 right now, do we not?

[Rob Mahoney]

We do, but that assumes that I think you're penciling in Carl Anthony Towns and Norm Powell both as us. US Players. Whereas they could both be international players if you would like them to be. And I would think that would also apply to, to me, the obvious replacement candidate who would be Joel Embiid, who could also be a US Player or an international player.

[Bill Simmons]

No, if you've played for Team USA, you're a U.S. player. That's.

[Zach Lowe]

That's my rule.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's the rule.

[Bill Simmons]

Like Banchero, had he been a candidate, would have been a US Player. You played for Team usa. You're a US Player.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, he's.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, he's.

[Rob Mahoney]

He's made enough enemies abroad, you know?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

So Giannis isn't playing for the east.

[Bill Simmons]

He'S playing for the world. But you think we need to replace him with the Eastern Conference player. If we do indeed replace him with Joel Embiid, who's an American player, do.

[Zach Lowe]

I then need to add another international player? So I need a second replacement. And is that Sengun, who I.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's a very functional system that we've created.

[Zach Lowe]

Look, I know it's low hanging fruit, the fact that we had to have like you need a whiteboard, a graphic.

[Bill Simmons]

Tutorial to describe how the All Star game works. Okay. Team A plays Team B. The winner of that game plays the world team. The winner of that game plays the. Whatever and then in the fourth quarter.

[Zach Lowe]

It'S all one game. It's not four games. It's all four games within a game. And then at the end, there's enough international players.

[Bill Simmons]

There's. There's only two things that I want to see.

[Zach Lowe]

Two teams. World, Us. If you're worried about the US Players getting not enough spots, given their requisite.

[Bill Simmons]

Percentage makeup of stars.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

Then just expand the rosters to 15. 15, 15. U.S. world or East, west, this nonsense we're doing. I'm going to. I'm giving up the fight on the Elam ending.

[Bill Simmons]

I thought it was awesome. They don't seem to like it. It's gone from the All Star game. I'd bring it back.

[Zach Lowe]

That's just me.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, it can have a similar problem. As far as the whiteboard goes. Like, if you need an infographic to describe the Elam ending, I understand the barrier to entry.

[Bill Simmons]

True. So how about we just have a basketball game?

[Zach Lowe]

What are we doing? Like, there's enough good international players that you could do 12.

[Bill Simmons]

12. If you just want to keep 24.

[Zach Lowe]

All stars, but make it 15. 15. Boom. Done. Like, enough with this convoluted crap.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, again, just classify Kat and Norm Powell as international players. Bring in Joel. Bring in Franz Wagner. There's 12 right there. You didn't really even have to stretch very far.

[Bill Simmons]

I can't. I can't wait. I'm so excited for team B versus Team C.

[Zach Lowe]

I don't know which is which.

[Bill Simmons]

Do you know which is which?

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't. I don't know which is which. But we should. We should establish this as an elaborate bid. Get some team C mockup jerseys made here at the ringer and just, like, really pick factions.

[Bill Simmons]

Team C. You're either with team C or against team C. Rob.

[Rob Mahoney]

How, like, again, how is this the format? How is this what we settled on?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, at least we still have the Taco Bell pool and weed eater skills challenge or whatever it is. I do like All Star Saturday night. I'm a sucker for All Star Saturday night. Sources say Jackson Hayes is in the dunk contest. I think.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think it's confirmed.

[Bill Simmons]

I think it's locked in with Carter Bryant and nobody. So sorry. That's so far. That's it. I think those long ain't going for the four Pete or the three peat or whatever he.

[Rob Mahoney]

Mac McClung says he's out. So I think, Zach, if you want a spot, it seems like there's one for the taking.

[Zach Lowe]

I would like. I would be a prop in the.

[Bill Simmons]

Dunk contest, I would. I would like someone to jump over me or I don't want to throw.

[Zach Lowe]

A lob because, I mean, I pr. If I practiced. If I had time to practice, I.

[Bill Simmons]

Could throw a lob.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay.

[Zach Lowe]

But I would be a prop.

[Bill Simmons]

I would. If, like someone wanted to jump over me, I would. Or I'd be in a car holding. Remember the.

[Zach Lowe]

Someone jumped and grabbed a ball out of the sunroof.

[Bill Simmons]

I could just hold the ball.

[Rob Mahoney]

Is that Baron Davis?

[Bill Simmons]

No, I think it's more recent than that, but it could be. I don't know. All the dunk contests other than the Levine Gordon ones kind of blend into me from the West.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's true.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay, any other nits to pick for the West?

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, as far as the west goes, I really don't have problems with these selections. And I like. I think we all had our various journeys in terms of figuring out what our ballots look like. Like, when you and I first talked, I had Shangoon over Chet, but I came to. I came to have Chad on mine as well. When we went back to this exercise for group chat. I just think it's like Shangoon's case, you're right to point out, is like a little too thorny at this point. And even though he is a hub, even though he is highly skilled, their half court offense is so messy that it's hard not to hold him in some way responsible for that. Whereas Kevin Durant, I think, escapes some of that criticism. Fair or not, I think.

[Bill Simmons]

I think it's more about the makeup of the team than it is about any one player in terms of why their half court offense is mucky. And the coaching staff has clearly decided like, we're going to play slow, we're going to play ugly ball, we're going to get a lot of offensive rebounds. And he's a part of the rebounding too.

[Rob Mahoney]

Definitely.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay, the east reserves, let me bring up my all star list here. East reserves. Oh, here it is. Scotty Barnes, Jalen Duran, Jalen Johnson. We have four Jalens on the Eastern Conference all stars. Brown, Brunson, Duran Johnson. Okay, back to the reserve. Scotty Barnes. Jalen Duran, Jalen Johnson, Donovan Mitchell, Norman Powell, Pascal Siakam, Karl Anthony Towns. By the last time I did it two weeks ago. And the starters are Jalen Brown, Jalen Brunson, Cade, Giannis Maxey. When we last did it a couple weeks ago, I was Mitchell, no brainer. Probably could have been a starter, should have been a starter.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Scotty Barnes, no Brainer. Jalen Johnson. No, Brainer. Jalen Duran. I thought, lock him in. And then I had three spots left at that moment. Two weeks or so ago, I went Michael Porter Jr. Norm Powell, Pascal Siakam. Siakam made it as well. Pascal Siakam. No Towns. At one point I had Derek White, who some people I saw Hollinger had Derek White in his comic. You could defend it. You. You laughed at me.

[Rob Mahoney]

I did laugh at you. I've also, with all due respect to. All due respect and love to John Hollinger. John would have Derek White on his team.

[Bill Simmons]

That's true. So as of now.

[Zach Lowe]

If, if I'm going to take one of those guys off, I actually think I would take. If I had to.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm not saying I would. I think Powell's case has gotten the shakiest. His offensive. He's missed some games. His offensive punch has waned a little bit. And you just know with him, as compared to some of these other guys, as efficient as he's been, as important as he's been to keeping the Heat offense afloat, A, that offense is very good and B, it's just fine. And B, he's not giving you playmaking and he's not giving you defense. It's a one way, one dimensional, straight line scoring kind of thing.

[Rob Mahoney]

That arc with Norm Powell too, I feel it's happened with every team he's ever gone to where it's like the, there's an initial burst of, oh my God, this guy is a bucket anytime he wants to be. And then as the season settles in, you start to get more and more familiar with, oh, he's not guarding anybody. Oh, every time he drives, it's to score. Immensely valuable in that one specific way. But you're right, it's like compared to the, the wide and varied contributions of some of these other candidates, I think, I think his is kind of a tough case.

[Zach Lowe]

And if I had to take him.

[Bill Simmons]

Off, I don't think I would have put Karl Anthony Towns on.

[Zach Lowe]

I don't think I would have put.

[Bill Simmons]

Towns on over Norm. And Towns does bring rebounding, leads the league in rebounding. He deserves a lot of credit for that. I probably at this point, given how dominant he's been in only 900 minutes or something, I would put Embiid in as the last one over Bam, over Mobley, over White. You could make arguments for all of them. Sure. I just think Embiid, again, if this is a showcase kind of game, he's been legitimately dominant now for a Month. The team is way better when he's on the floor and minus when he's off the floor. He's still an enormous presence in the paint. Defensively, I think Siakam stays. MPJ for me would stay. I'd probably stick with Norm, but if I had to flip Norm out, I'd go Embiid.

[Zach Lowe]

Cat, look, I get it.

[Bill Simmons]

He's a big name. His spacing is hugely valuable. He's leading the league and rebounding.

[Zach Lowe]

I just think when the defining.

[Bill Simmons]

One of the defining storylines of your team season has been, are they going to trade you? Why is he on the bench again in crunch time? Is he the reason their defense is bad? Well, how much of the reason is he that their defense is not bad but mediocre?

[Zach Lowe]

I just think, like, we can, we can take the year off.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, the shot's not falling at the same rate. And if you want to give him the track record thing, fine.

[Zach Lowe]

I'm giving him the year off.

[Bill Simmons]

That's all.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think especially with the embiid comparison where fair or not, and I'm trying not to, like, lean too much in the recency bias of this, but Joel's season feels like it has momentum. Early on, he looked like a mess. He didn't look confident, just like moving around the court. But over the last month or so, he's been so dominant, he's looked more and more like himself. I see that as a trajectory more than just what's been happening lately. And with Cat, it's hard to separate the fact that as good as the Knicks have looked of of late, they've done it with him being kind of an extraneous part of that. And their defense has gotten right and the support and cast and the shooting have been really good. Like, they've been a good, balanced team. And Karl Anthony Towns is just kind of there. It's hard to separate those things. It's hard to not feel like for everything that Cat does give them and for as skilled and as talented as he is, as you said, like, the spacing is clearly valuable. Overall, he feels less important to the Knicks today than he did a month ago or two months ago. And I'm sure that's going to fuel even more very fun trade chatter and speculation as we, like, round straight into the deadline. But it's hard not to take that into account when we're thinking about, like, who are the best and most important players right now.

[Bill Simmons]

Would you have had Michael Porter Jr.

[Rob Mahoney]

I would have had Michael Porter Jr. It does feel like Pascal kind of Caught him for that spot. I don't know that we've had many seasons where multiple, like, bottom dwelling teams in either conference have gotten individual all stars. And I get why Pascal would have caught him. I think there's. I think there is an argument for both and I think I probably would have had both.

[Bill Simmons]

Pascal has played almost 1600 minutes. He's played more minutes than any of these guys. 24, 7 and 4. 48% shooting, 38% on threes. Good defensive player.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Just. Just plays professional competitive basketball at all times. Does everything pretty well. Awesome player. I'm. I'm actually glad in the end.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

That he made it.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think, like, deeply admirable. Honestly, like, just for, just for a moment on Pascal, because he's a player who did not have to make this team by like, again, the historical precedent of teams who are in the Pacers position, but for someone to make it who is. Yeah. A good scorer. Yes. A productive playmaker. Yes. A good rebounder, like all of the classic box score stuff, but puts in like third and fourth and fifth efforts defensively for a team that is going absolutely nowhere. Sees a ton of pressure in terms of having to create because there's no one else who's really able to drive offense in the way he is. And doing it with poise and grace and continued effort and consistency. Like, I just like, really admire what he's done. Even when it comes down to, you know, like, Rick Carlisle points to him and is like, guess what? You're guarding centers for this entire quarter. And he just does it. And he does it for a team knowing that they're not going to be good enough to do anything with that this season. And it's hard not to think highly of a player like that.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Hey, we're going to start Micah potter at the 5 today, even though we have like four centers on our team. So you're going to have to guard the opposing center, but when he goes out, you're going to have to guard the number one wing option on the other team. Are you cool with that? And by the.

[Zach Lowe]

And he's like, like, you watch the.

[Bill Simmons]

Pacers down 15 in the fourth quarter. He's like sprinting back to make transition stops and contest transition lapse.

[Zach Lowe]

Man, I.

[Bill Simmons]

Boy, it could really. If you want to take a couple days off, man, it's so. All right, so let's do a thought exercise then.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay.

[Zach Lowe]

Why I mentioned all the things about.

[Bill Simmons]

Norm and what a very good offensive player and scorer he is and how he doesn't give you the playmaking and the defense. So what's the argument for Michael Porter Jr. Over Norm on a worse team?

[Rob Mahoney]

I think straight up, I don't think anyone was expecting to make this argument on a podcast. Michael Porter Jr. Has been a better playmaker than Norm Powell has been this season in terms of the role he plays within an offense like mpj for as as weird of a trajectory as this has been for him has come into like a pretty functional facilitating role. And don't get me wrong, like what Norm does and the straight line buzz saw way in which he operates is clearly valuable to the Heat and instrumental to the style that they play. But ultimately like what is better for propping up a team? What is better for propping up a bunch of young playmakers in Brooklyn's case who are trying to figure out their way in the league? A bunch of players who are ill equipped for their roles but are being asked to do a lot. I trust in what MPJ has been able to put together while being one of the best shooters in the world, while being a go to scorer and just feeling like part of a functional offense in a more comprehensive way.

[Bill Simmons]

I completely agree. Like the cutting, the ability to hunt mismatches. He's scoring is scoring is a two and a half points higher, shooting a little bit better. The advanced stats are heavily MPJ and also like size and rebounding like he's just like he's not a good defensive player like a plus defender. Nor is Norm Powell but but you're just better if you're bigger and he's 610 and he gets a lot of rebounds and he's more versatile in terms of what he can do on offense.

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[Bill Simmons]

Let's talk about the other big event of the weekend.

[Zach Lowe]

Paul George was suspended 25 games for.

[Bill Simmons]

Violating the league's anti drug policy. No one knows exactly what happened here. Paul George released a statement about he took some stuff, medication I guess for mental health reasons and apparently something went sideways when he was drug tested. You could just add this to the list of crazy shit that has happened to the Sixers in the last 12 years. Forgive me like if you, if I miss anything, please just throw something in.

[Rob Mahoney]

Got it.

[Bill Simmons]

Fake Twitter account. Two first round picks that forgot how to shoot, including one literally having the Ralph Wiggum. You can see it exact moment when his career is over against the Atlanta Hawks in the playoffs and b drinking Shirley Temples and going to Qatar for the record.

[Rob Mahoney]

The Shirley Temples. I'm not mad at it.

[Zach Lowe]

No, I'm just, I'm just saying it's just bizarre.

[Bill Simmons]

Everything that comes out really should I like my daughter loves Shirley Temples. Really loves them. Sam Hinkey's resignation letter. Jalil Okafor going like 100 miles an hour and getting arrested for it.

[Rob Mahoney]

I forgot about that one.

[Bill Simmons]

Embiid getting Bell's palsy Zaire Smith's sesame seed allergy trading Mikhail Bridges for the pick for, for that Zaire Smith pick when his mom worked for the team. I I'm sure that there's even more and anything else ringing a bell.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean just the larger Markel Fultz quandary health situation.

[Bill Simmons]

What happened?

[Rob Mahoney]

I literally don't know to this day.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a good one.

[Rob Mahoney]

I But here's the thing to a lot of to a lot of the the examples you're pointing out there is not only a like how the did this happen element to those stories. There is an air of mystery to half of them where we still don't know why. Like again, why Markel Fultz went the way he did medically or what happened to his neck or what happened to his confidence. We still don't exactly know the ins and outs of the Mikhail Bridges situation. For as many like inside scoops and reporting as has been done on it. Like, I just don't know how to make heads or tails or add up basically anything that ever happens to the Sixers.

[Bill Simmons]

Just an absolutely bizarre last 15 years. Like are they cursed? Is clearly like, is like Hal Greer involved? Like is the Barkley trade? Is there a curse? It's just absolutely crazy.

[Zach Lowe]

And of course this happens right as.

[Bill Simmons]

The Sixers are kind of a feel good story in the NBA. A little bit up and down in the last four or five games. But Embiid looks as good as you could have reasonably expected him to look over as much of a consistent stretch of games as you could have imagined. Maxey, even if he slumped a little bit lately, is like in the first team all NBA all star starter edge column's incredible Kelly Oubre is back. McCain is starting to find his game, particularly when he plays with Embiid and.

[Zach Lowe]

You'Re just like, you know, you can.

[Bill Simmons]

Talk yourself into The Sixers are 27 and 21 tied in the lost column for the fourth spot in the East. I can't, I can't get there with like, can they win three straight playoff series? Is Embiid going to be able to stay healthy for that long? But like you can definitely get to. They can beat any of these teams at a playoff series if they're playing like this.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

And then bam.

[Bill Simmons]

Paul George suspended for crazy reasons or unknown reasons out 25 games. He'll be back the end of the regular season. He can be in the facility and be at practices. So he should be in shape, be part of the team, et cetera. What, what, where do you want to go with this?

[Zach Lowe]

Like, how they adjust without him, what.

[Bill Simmons]

This impact is on their season? What do you want to do?

[Rob Mahoney]

I want to start with, I want to start with the impact because I think when this happened, because it was so unexpected and still kind of unexplained as far as how taking a medicine for your mental health would trip a drug test and lead into yet another like weird Sixer situation. The first response I saw was just like people getting jokes off. Like, you know, people having fun with it for like understandable reasons. This is crazy stuff. Like, this is a very strange story to come out of nowhere, seemingly. It's also Like a real loss for the Sixers, as you said, not just because they're a feel good story, but Paul George, low key, has been good and important to their team when he's been healthy. And he is a consolidation of a lot of skills that are important to them. Where he's like more of a playmaker obviously than Kelly Oubre is. He's more of a scoring threat than a Trend in Watford or a Jabari Walker would be. He's has so much different gravity than Dominic Barlow does. And so even though this is a team with a lot of role players that I like and decent forwards who work hard, none of them do the stuff that Paul George does. And to not have that for 25 games, it means a lot to this team. Even though you may think out there like, oh, Paul George isn't who he used to be. Oh, Paul George isn't worth his contract. All that stuff is true. He's still really valuable to the Sixers, by the way.

[Bill Simmons]

Trend and Watford And Dominic Barlow, two great NBA names in like 15 years on this podcast. And we're remembering some guys. Those guys are going to come up.

[Rob Mahoney]

For, for sure remembering some guys. First ballot hall of Famers. And just in real time, they're already inducted in.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, I mean look, Paul George has.

[Bill Simmons]

Been a very good role player for the Sixers. He shot the three pretty well, he's defended pretty well. He has not attempted to overtake the offense. He seems to know like this is Maxi's show and then it's Embiid show and it's probably Edgecomb show above me. I'm the fourth option in the starting five. You know, you mentioned all of these guys, the Mad Libs guys. We just mentioned the sort of, of. It's not a whole. It's a, it's a, it's the murky spot on the team is the power forward position and there's a world in which like playing Uber and Paul George together is maybe the best answer to that question or part of the answer to that question. And now, I mean, are they going to start three guards in Uber? Are they going to start Barlow at the four? Probably Barlow, we've seen them play Watford at the three some and, and at the fourth. And so we just sort of table that whole sort of alignment until PG comes back. I think they played Adam Bona and Embiid together in the first game they played post suspension. I think we might see some of that.

[Zach Lowe]

I think, you know, as shocking as.

[Bill Simmons]

This is, I think 25 games, whatever your expected record was for the Sixers, who have played a very home heavy schedule. They're headed out on the road now for a long road trip. Whatever your expected record is, I don't think I would change it very much without Paul George.

[Zach Lowe]

I might change it like a game.

[Bill Simmons]

Two max, because between McCain, Ubre, Grimes.

[Zach Lowe]

Whatever, they should have enough to just.

[Bill Simmons]

Fill the gaps that he leaves in a way that this is. This isn't like losing Maxi for 25 games or even losing Edgecomb for 25 games. I think they'll more or less be fine, but fine is like you really would like to hang on to the sixth seed and they have a three game cushion on the Heat and a two game cushion in the loss column on the depressing magic.

[Zach Lowe]

So I would bet on them.

[Bill Simmons]

If you thought they were going to hang onto that seed before, I'd say you should bet on them now.

[Zach Lowe]

Just long term.

[Bill Simmons]

The lack of opportunity to sort of get more cohesion between all your best players has some sort of cost, but definitely my reaction was much more the, like, what the hell happened there? Than oh, wow, the Sixers are in big trouble. As good as Paul George has been.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, they're not screwed. I mean, and to your point, like, they've been a winning team without him this season, so clearly they know how to do it and they know how to get by. And that is, I mean, I think really the defining story of who the Sixers have been is with Joel in various states, with Paul George and out of the lineup with all kinds of permutations, they've just been consistently good and not great in any particular way, but consistently good enough. I think what Paul George gives you is he just makes it easier to run a rotation, to find enough lineups that work because of all of these little contributing things that he does. And so without him, let's be real, like, Nick Nurse has to work a little harder to duct tape this thing together. Like, some of these role players have to stretch a little farther, not to like replicate what Paul George does, but to make up for it in some other way with like energy or enthusiasm or cutting or whatever that looks like for their skill set. And clearly it just creates an, like, you run an even bigger risk of if any of those guys go down, if Kelly Oubre goes out for any period of time, if Jared McCain turns back into a pumpkin, if you lose anything else at this point, then I think you start talking about real damage. But I, I think I might be just like a little more pessimistic than you are about their standing relative to the Heat or the Magic. Like, to me this just feels like the Sixers could very well and very easily be a play in team as a result of this. And it really wouldn't take a lot from Orlando or Miami to figure that out. The counterpoint being when have the Magic or the Heat consistently figured out anything this season?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I mean, look, obviously given the small cushion they have there, they were going to be at risk either way of falling into the play in. I just think their risk is increased by only a little bit because this and you know, the Heat are okay. You know this wear thing is getting interesting. Right. And obviously they're in the Giannis stuff and the Magic. Magic are funky, man. Like the Magic, they had a great win over Toronto, I think on Friday night where their offense for the first time in a while looked a little bit looser in a good way, a little bit snappier in a good way. And then they went back and laid an egg against the spurs last night and I did a whole thing on the Magic, you know, and if Franz Wagner doesn't tie it all together, not, not that it's on him, but if this doesn't start clicking at some point, this team looks different next season. Definitely. I think mid season is tough. Like mid season trades are very tough. They're very. There are a lot of upheaval, particularly when you're a decent to very good team.

[Zach Lowe]

There's some funky teams who are just.

[Bill Simmons]

Kind of haven't been able to get out of their own way this season that if one of them did something at the trade deadline, it wouldn't necessarily surprise me. But I don't see a big Orlando deal. I did a whole Orlando thing.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, do you see the Paul George move changing Philly's approach at all to the deadline? Do you think this changes what they need or what they should want?

[Bill Simmons]

I don't, I don't. I mean, who knows? Darryl is always, is always throwing stuff at the wall and they've shot down any Giannis talk because it would have to involve Edgecomb. The one thing Bobby Marks noted immediately was because this money, the suspension fines come off their books, they're much closer to the tax line than they were before and they can get under it without sacrificing a rotation player which would have been required before. So that alone is big.

[Zach Lowe]

I'm sure there'll be buyers.

[Bill Simmons]

They have some assets to play with. I think they can trade two first round picks salary wise. It's hard for them to compile a lot. So, I don't know. We'll see. By the way, what.

[Zach Lowe]

Any, any, any snubs for the.

[Bill Simmons]

I meant to talk about the word snub. Like, I see these snub columns. It's like Paolo Banchero got snubbed. Yeah, we can go ahead. Really.

[Zach Lowe]

I think you should have to. You have to say who should come.

[Bill Simmons]

Off the All Star team. If that guy was an actual snub.

[Zach Lowe]

You should actually be required to say.

[Bill Simmons]

You don't just get to list like.

[Zach Lowe]

15 players and be like, these guys are all snubs. And you get goodwill with their agents.

[Bill Simmons]

And them and all that.

[Zach Lowe]

No, you should have to say who comes off if they go on. And my other thing is, I saw some snub commentary. I saw some snub angst, particularly coming.

[Bill Simmons]

From the great city of Toronto in Canada.

[Zach Lowe]

I saw some Rising Stars challenge snub anger. Like Jamal Shed snubbed. Like maybe he was.

[Bill Simmons]

It's the fucking Rising Stars game presented by Sprite and Kia and Taco Bell.

[Zach Lowe]

You don't get snubbed from the.

[Bill Simmons]

You get spared from the Rising Stars gambling.

[Rob Mahoney]

You get to go on vacation instead of it.

[Zach Lowe]

If you're using any. Like, our brains are precious. We don't have a lot of time on this planet. We don't have a lot of time where our brains are in prime functioning snapping synapse capacity. If you use like a millimeter of your brain space on Rising Stars snubs, you need to just have a beer, sit back, watch a movie, just do.

[Bill Simmons]

Anything but talk about the Rising Stars game.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's very true, and especially for the Raptors faithful. Specifically your rising snub. Rising snubs. Your Rising Star snubs may be what they are, but there are spiritually three Raptors in this All Star game. Brandon Ingram did not get in, but Norm Powell did. Scotty Barnes did. Pascal Siakam did. Like, these are. These are Raptors legends. You know, take your wins where you.

[Bill Simmons]

Can get them, by the way, back to Towns.

[Zach Lowe]

I don't think it's really off base to say, like, I'm not. I'd have to actually do a study on it.

[Bill Simmons]

I think bridges in an OBI have been more or less as good as Towns this year. And the Knicks second best player is more just the collective of their towns talent than any one of them. But that's neither here nor.

[Zach Lowe]

Have you seen any. Go ahead.

[Rob Mahoney]

What if we did Team D, the snub team. And. And here's what it is. It's not just the collection of the Paolo Bancheros. And like the next guys in line, you have to volunteer to be on the snub team and you have to put up some volume of money in order to participate. You got to really put your money where your mouth is and we'll contribute it to the prize money. I think this feeds into a larger problem I have with now that we're just like incentivizing players to like, here you get this bonus if you win the cup. Here you get this bonus if your team wins the All Star game. I'm for it, I'm down. And clearly it's like a motivating factor for some guys. I think what we need to do though is the losing team, we need to have all the money sitting courtside like it's the World Series of Poker in a giant pile on the scorers table so everyone knows what's at stake. And when the game is over, the losing team has to pick up big stacks of bills and go walk over and hand it to the winning team. I think this is the only way we get real competition back in the All Star.

[Zach Lowe]

I like that.

[Bill Simmons]

How about every player and coach on the losing team has to fly commercial on the way back from All Star?

[Rob Mahoney]

If you lose, feel our struggle, please.

[Bill Simmons]

If there's a snub team, are you introducing Team D?

[Zach Lowe]

Are you saying another team into the.

[Rob Mahoney]

Round robin, but it can be anyone. Like if you're Nikhil Alexander Walker and you're willing to say I want to come compete and put something at risk in order to do it, but bless you, you're now the captain of team D. If you.

[Bill Simmons]

Do you have any thoughts on The Knicks going 60 after hitting rock bottom against the Mavs and losing nine out of 11, they have beaten the Nets at the Sixers, the Kings at the Raptors, Portland Lakers.

[Zach Lowe]

Not exactly a murderer's role, but quality.

[Bill Simmons]

Wins at the Raptors and at the Sixers.

[Rob Mahoney]

Also like nets by 50. You know, it's like the bad teams, they are smoking right now.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And that's at another 50 point to a 50 point loss last night. To who? Who was that to? I don't know. Somebody. Somebody good. Detroit. Detroit. The Knicks have looked fine. I'm not like going head over heels.

[Zach Lowe]

They've been my pick to make the finals all year.

[Bill Simmons]

They've looked fine. Josh Hart's playing well, they're healthy. Mitch is playing. They've played some bad teams. They've hit gotten hot from three.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's true.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm not Going Colec Kolek and Shamit cementing. Nothing is in cement with the Knicks bench, but like overtaking Clarkson and Yabu Selli, I think has been healthy for their team.

[Rob Mahoney]

Agreed. I do think that element is funny where what has happened during this recent stretch for the Knicks, I think you nailed a lot of it. The shooting has come a long way. The balance of the team feels a lot healthier. I think clearly there was like a mental thing where they were operating like a team that assumed that they were going to be making a deep playoff run and taking for granted the fact that, that the way that they made deep playoff runs was by never taking those sorts of things for granted in the first place. So maybe got out of their own way in that capacity, but also the consolidation of that bench. Not just Landry Shamit nailing down a spot, but they're just playing like eight deep right now. And Mikhail Bridges also had an interesting comment the other day about how their defensive principles have been shifting and they're funneling more guys toward the sideline instead of the middle, which, you know, the real freaks out there would know is like icing more pick and rolls effectively. And so the idea in the post Tibbs era that the way to make the team right again is to ice more and play fewer guys. I just can't help but laugh at that. Like, how is that where we ended up? Like, how. How have we gone so completely full circle with this?

[Bill Simmons]

Wow, I love that. Give me the meme of Tibbs laughing or smiling when he was the Bulls coach. That meme that always comes up.

[Rob Mahoney]

I prefer the laughing at every Nick Friedle question in a, in a scrum, personally, you know, like. But let's just get a full like sound overlaying all of the various Tibbs laughs over the years into a full like horror complex.

[Bill Simmons]

Tibs and Kawhi as like horror movie villains.

[Zach Lowe]

Eyes. It's interesting you say that.

[Bill Simmons]

I missed that comment. And the Knicks have been giving up tons of threes all season and one of the reasons they give up tons of threes is they allow middle and they help super aggressively from the outside to contain the paint because they know their paint protection when Cat is at the 5 is not great.

[Rob Mahoney]

And even Mitchell Robinson, to be fair, better at the at the rim protection, but not better at like the holding down prevent middle kind of strategy.

[Bill Simmons]

Interesting. Any last thing, Rookie of the Year, I said on prime that I had Khan by the slimmest of margins.

[Zach Lowe]

As of right now, it's.

[Bill Simmons]

Now it's going to Be. I, I don't. I'd have to do a deep dive on it and I did a shallow dive. I, you know, you. It's. It's a tape like it's Khan's three point shooting and all the ways that he leverages that. Yep, their scoring is relatively equal versus Flags size, defense, playmaking, lack of three point shooting. I think Flag is going to end up winning it and it's certainly trending that way. The last month has been Flag kind of emphatically and that dude just gets better and better every game. Almost beat the Rockets by himself the other night. Scoring in every kind of creative way possible. That guy is. There's no question who is going to be the better player in the NBA between Flag and Kinnable.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think I would lean Flag at this point too. And it's. Yeah, it's not just, not just that last month, but I think the overall arc of his season so far where he started so much in the mud in terms of what he was being asked to do in running point, how much responsibility he had on a team with like an ab, like a just a janky half court offense and no spacing to work with whatsoever. And the more you just put him on the floor with anybody who can shoot like the like Cooper Flag and Max Christie is somehow like a winning formula, right? Like a successful positive way to just like drive offense. The fact that he's able to do all that while being a difference maker defensively and I just have a soft spot for anyone who comes into the league and right out of the gate, good contributing, making positive plays on defense that are not just gambling, that are not just leveraging your athleticism. Because you know if you are Cooper Flag, it would be really easy to jump into every passing lane and leave the guys behind you in a tough spot as a result. Like it's. It's easy to accumulate impressive defensive plays. I think what makes me in a way more impressed with his defense is how much he stays home and still affects the ball. How much he stays home and still bogs guys down. Even some like really high level scorers that he's been asked to stymie.

[Bill Simmons]

He does everything very well already except shoot threes. And by everything I mean cut screen, rotate, not rotate, no personnel. And he is effectively playing point guard a lot. Again because the Mavs are not starting a point guard. And I think if it's a tie, and right now statistically it's probably a tie, I think you kind of have to defer to the guy who is the undisputed number one option on his team, even a bad one. Khan is like, it's sort of a bi collective between Lamelo and Miller.

[Zach Lowe]

And Khan, I don't know, it's going.

[Bill Simmons]

To be like Khan's shooting is a superpower.

[Zach Lowe]

That's what's hard. You look at the stats like, oh.

[Bill Simmons]

Khan shooting 43% of the three. That's impressive. It's more than that.

[Zach Lowe]

It's the volume of them that he.

[Bill Simmons]

Gets up and the threat of them and what that opens up for his driving and his playmaking. And the Hornets offense, in totality, just two. And Edgecomb is third. To me, they've been unbelievable, all of them.

[Zach Lowe]

Rob Mahoney Group Chat we got trade deadline this week.

[Bill Simmons]

What else we got?

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, Prestige TV continues to pace, as you said, with the Pit. We got industry, but I mean, this is trade deadline week. We gotta, we gotta really batten down the hatches and figure out are we getting more than Vit Krechi moving.

[Bill Simmons]

I look, I like Vete. I like no shots fired, but I.

[Rob Mahoney]

Would like some splash. This has been such a trade, light season, him.

[Bill Simmons]

We're going to get some. There's always stuff. There's always stuff. And Rob Mahoney will be there to help you get through it, talk you through it on all of his various appearances. And Prestige TV too, I guess. Industry. Another one I missed out on.

[Zach Lowe]

Rob Mahoney.

[Bill Simmons]

Thank you, sir.

[Rob Mahoney]

Thanks, Zach. Appreciate it.

[Zach Lowe]

All right, that's it for today on the Zach Lowe Show. We will be back on trade deadline day to recap all the madness. And if something happens between now and then, who knows, maybe we'll be back sooner. You never know. This is one of those weeks. It's one of those weeks. Thanks to Kurt Goldsberry, thanks to Rob Mahoney, thanks to Mike, Jonathan and Billy on production.

[Bill Simmons]

We'll see you soon on the Zach Lowe Show. 21 or over in President. Select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over in President D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-Gambler or visit rg-help.com, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org Chattinconenetic or is it mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland? Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support at Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York. For Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7867.