← The Zach Lowe Show
The Zach Lowe Show
Shai Saves the Thunder, and the Finals Are Now 2-2: All the Drama in the NBA with Bill Simmons.
01:28:18
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- [00:00]
Bill Simmons
This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever finish a movie and the next thing you know, you're totally obsessed. Like, I'm talking about ordering a book about 70s film lighting or buying the soundtrack on vinyl. Kind of obsessed. Whatever it is, prime helps you get more out of whatever passions you're into or getting into. Head to Amazon.com prime and follow your obsession wherever it goes.
- [00:24]
Zach Lowe
Woo. Coming up on the Zach Lowe Show. I got Bill Simmons. He's right there in the same room as me. We were just at Pacers Thunder game four. It's down to three games for the NBA title. An absolute war of attrition, defensive battle. I'm drained. I'm emotionally drained and physically drained. I didn't play in the game. Are you physically and emotionally drained? We're going to talk about everything that happened in the game. If I can remember any of it.
- [00:47]
Bill Simmons
I felt like I played and also I felt the energy of the crowd. And I became a Pacers fan for like 2 hours and I got sucked. It sucked me in. What a game. I can't wait to talk about.
- [00:59]
Zach Lowe
I got harassed on the street on the way back. Zach Lowe. Talk about the missed kickballs. Talk about the miss kickballs. Scott Foster. Okay.
- [01:07]
Bill Simmons
All right. I'm going to go do the podcast.
- [01:09]
Zach Lowe
We saw Andre Guadala in the elevator. He was excited to talk about the game. We got Kevin Durant Rumors. We got the Knicks are interviewing human coaches. That.
- [01:17]
Bill Simmons
That I heard that I heard they had a head and two arms and two legs.
- [01:20]
Zach Lowe
We got it. Yeah, I think so. We got a lot to talk about on the Zach Lowe show coming up now with Bill Simmons. You're listening to the Zach Lowe show, presented by FanDuel. America's number one sportsbook has made it easier than ever to get in on the action during the NBA Finals. And with live betting, the tip off is just the beginning. Look for the live SGP tab on the FanDuel Sportsbook app and build your bet slip. Then sit back and enjoy the game as you track the outcome of your parlay right in the app. If you don't already have it, download the FanDuel app today and make every moment more the ringers committed to responsible gaming. Visit rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available and listen to the end of this episode for additional details. Must be 21 over in President select states or 18 and over in President DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800- GAMBLER or visit RG D help.com welcome to the Zach Low show. As promised, I'm in an undisclosed hotel location with Bill Simmons. We just watched the Oklahoma City Thunder in a game that didn't feel like it was one they were going to win, in a game that felt the Pacers were pacering around. Tyrese Halliburton was playing well. Pascal Siakam was playing well. Obi Toppin, another big game for him. They're up by 10 at one point. Oklahoma City, no rhythm. They made three three pointers the entire game. They took 17 threes in the year of our basketball gods, 2025, exacerbating problems that were coming in to this game. They couldn't get threes. They weren't passing. They had ten assists.
- [03:01]
Bill Simmons
They made three threes.
- [03:02]
Zach Lowe
Three threes.
- [03:04]
Bill Simmons
They made three, three threes, ten assists. And they win by seven on the road.
- [03:08]
Zach Lowe
And they win by seven on the road. And now it's two. Two. They have reclaimed home court advantage going back to Oklahoma City and we are set up here for a potentially epic last two or three games of the finals. And I don't even know like who I feel like has the edge after these four games. They've all been very different games, but this game was sitting there for Indiana to win. They were up, I think seven going into the fourth quarter. J Dub made a jumper right at the end of the third quarter. Felt big when it went in after a stop too, but it was sitting there for them to win. It felt, didn't you feel like they were going to win?
- [03:47]
Bill Simmons
I thought when it was 86, 76, up 10, OKC looked like they were a mess and they, the ball wasn't moving. It was all one on one stuff. They couldn't hit a three and it felt like Indy could knock them out. And they missed a couple shots topping, got fouled, missed both free throws. And I just remember mentally noting it.
- [04:06]
Zach Lowe
I'm like, my notes right here.
- [04:07]
Bill Simmons
They could be putting this game away right now and they're not putting away and they let OKC hang around. But I, I'll tell you, I thought OKC's defense in the second half was among the best I've ever seen in my life. I, I, I, Indiana couldn't get within 30ft of the hoop on multiple possessions in a row. Halberton Dort, I felt so good about my Dort defensive player of the year.
- [04:31]
Zach Lowe
It felt like Dort at halftime was like, all right, I'm doing to you what Nemhard is doing to our guy. I'm go, I'm doing to Halliburton with Nemhard soon to SGA all the way up the floor. You're barely going to get barely. And yet still up 10 Thunder in disarray. They had two shot clock violations and an eight second call in the third quarter. What happened to the Pacers offense at the end of the game? Was it. Was it just amazing defense? I mean it is amazing defense. Was there anything else you noticed that the Thunder can take with them trying to defend this so far in the playoffs? Like almost undefendable Pacers offense.
- [05:05]
Bill Simmons
I thought they solved a lot of stuff. Siakam Only had one field goal in the second half. I think it was 1 for 6. Only took one field goal in the whole fourth quarter.
- [05:13]
Zach Lowe
Boom.
- [05:13]
Bill Simmons
They couldn't figure out how to get him the ball. And if they tried to get in the ball around the key it felt like OKC had seven arms just flying and tapping. The Halburn couldn't start the offense and was working so hard just to get away from Dort and they. And then it just was over and over again. It felt like there was like six seconds left on the shot clock and they hadn't even really started a play. And it was you know a nem hard pull up or it was Halberton just trying to create something right at the end of the shot clock or it was like a quick pass for. For a quick three. Okay's defense. OKC's defense won the game. But Shay made the the two biggest shots of the game in a row. He scored five in a row right when they needed him and it felt like it flipped the game. He had the. The three that went took it from four points to one and the go ahead jumper and you know he was. He. He had no assists and he was still incredible.
- [06:03]
Zach Lowe
Yeah. 35 points on 12 of 24. Did get 10 free throws. Obviously a little inflated the free throws at the end. A lot of free throws. Both of they they started run we talked about after game three. You called dueling Banjos on when I was saying you would like a little more synergy between SGA and J Dub. Even when they're rolling it's like they're playing their separate offenses within the offense. They put him in the two man game a lot tonight with Shea screening for jw.
- [06:33]
Bill Simmons
Especially in the second half.
- [06:34]
Zach Lowe
Especially in the second half.
- [06:35]
Bill Simmons
And he couldn't stop it and it.
- [06:37]
Zach Lowe
Wasn'T like anything fancy. It's not like they blitzed and they got him in rotation. It was. They switched and just nice. It's so funny how these matchups are. Like, Jalen Brunson wants anybody but N. Smith on him, and SGA wants anybody but Nemhardt on him, including Neesmith. And he got that switch. He got a. I think he drew a foul at the nail on one of them or made a. Made a long two, drew a foul on, like, a spin move and then that three. He got the switch. They loaded up to him. He kicked it to Jay Will or J Dub Jam. J Dub drove the gap, and J Dubs was just relentless off the dribble the entire game. Just kept him afloat. In the first half, in the first.
- [07:15]
Bill Simmons
Quarter, it felt like he was going left every time, too, and they just never could figure it out.
- [07:19]
Zach Lowe
And he kicked it to Shea. Shay hits the Monster 3, and you nailed it with Siakam. I thought when Indiana's offense was kind of unraveling at the end of the game, and it was. And one thing Oklahoma City did that I bet we'll see more of is they switched Chet onto Halliburton and Nemhardt and just said, look, we know you're going to dance a little bit, and sometimes you'll punish him. Sometimes you'll beat him for a layup, like Halliburton beat him for a layup. Sometimes you let your step back three. And we may not do this on purpose on every possession. It may be sort of like, oh, God, the screen. The screen really hit us. We're going to switch just to. Just to get back in front, but we're not going to get in rotation as much. And Nemhardt settled for a long two that he missed over him. And it felt like Nemhardt just never misses those shots. Yeah, Halliburton settled, I think, for a jumper that he missed over him. And I just kept writing down, where is Siakam? Where is Siakam? Like, they forgot about Siakam toward the end of the game. And part of it is, you're right, like, the entry passes were all treacherous against Oklahoma City, but I just wanted. I wanted Siakam to just force his way, go set A. Like, get involved in the action. And I felt like they forgot about him. And Oklahoma City just walked him down with that defense.
- [08:27]
Bill Simmons
I mean, there's so much to cover with this game. I remember thinking in the third quarter when it felt like Indy was going to win, especially in their up 10, I was sitting near the OKC bench. I'm watching the body language, and they just looked young and tired, and you could feel it at the end of the half, when they walked on the end of the first half, they were a little hang doggy. Noted that. And then in the third quarter, same thing, just young and tired. And I was just marveling because I thought OKC was playing incredible defense. It wasn't like they were letting up. Indy was just scoring and getting these, you know, topping in those two threes in a row. They're getting fast break points. And at some point you're like, maybe Indy's just, just a great offensive team now. Maybe they have just emerged. And then over the last 14 minutes, OKC just plucked all their wings off. It wasn't just that they scored 18 points. The shots were terrible. I never felt good. They were either like somebody flying to the basket trying to make a really hard layup, somebody making a 20 footer with a hand in their face or a rush three. And those were the three plays. And I think Halberton's a great offensive player. He can't solve Dort. He can't go by him. Dort door. I just thought Dort was. It's weird to say this because SGA was incredible, but I thought Dort was the MVP of the game. I thought the way he took out Halbert and it was like watching a defense take out the quarterback of another team. And Halpern had an okay game. It was like 18 and 7, but they really needed him. And that game, it hit the point that we've watched them do this for two months now, these close games. He makes big plays and big shots and he couldn't do it in this game. They didn't really have anybody to make the shots.
- [10:02]
Zach Lowe
I am so brain broken by Indiana's comebacks that when Halliburton deflects the inbounds pass when they're down 5 after the, before the inbounds pass foul that they got the extra free throw. Remember he deflects it and they come out and they get a run out. Mather misses the free throws. But when that happened, I was like, these motherfuckers are going to do this again. Like again. I'm so brainwashed by them that in game two, when they were up like 18 and Carlisle put Johnny Fury to the scorers table, I was like, maybe he's got something with Fury in this series. Maybe this is like a secret weapon. He's been waiting to play and they're going to come back. But there was no, no comeback this time. You look at the box score, it's like J Dub 27, Shea 35, Caruso just an absolutely massive. 20 points.
- [10:51]
Bill Simmons
Massive and big. Like when plays were breaking down, he had one play where it was like the end of the shot clock. Indy played perfect defense in the fourth quarter and he just made like a crazy fallaway baseline. Like he's not that kind of player.
- [11:05]
Zach Lowe
He was able to make manufacturing points that they really needed just to kind of keep in touch because they're often. They're getting very little in transition. Indiana, as you can, continued to be awesome in transition. They're taking away all the easy buckets they get. And it's just hard for them in the half court against the Pacers defense that we just have to. We have to laud them as like, this is now a legit good to very good defensive team. They've been on point with their rotations. There's particularly the last two games with their schemes and their rotations which we can talk about. But.
- [11:34]
Bill Simmons
Well, and then we should mention Chet played 37 tonight and he had the 14 and 15. I thought he had a couple big defensive plays. I don't know how many blocks he won.
- [11:43]
Zach Lowe
Nemhard late in the game when Nemhard drove and another kind of broken, slow possession for Indiana and he challenged him at the rim and he had to toss it way up off the bed. The other thing is four offensive rebounds for Chet. Couple putbacks. When again, when things look like they were. They were on the verge of Indiana 3 1.
- [11:59]
Bill Simmons
He got hurt in the first quarter. We were watching because it looked like he re injured the ankle and that he wasn't coming back. He limped off and we're like, oh, my God, that's it for Chet. They f. Listen, their backs were to the wall. We probably should have said this sooner. I do think if they lost that game, I think that the. I don't think they can win three in a row after that.
- [12:18]
Zach Lowe
I mean, how about this? This is something we talked about last night and before the game. I mean, there's a chance this was the NBA championship. I actually don't feel that way. I feel that way less after watching the game.
- [12:30]
Bill Simmons
But we've had game fours like that before that. Game four was the game, right? It's like 2000 LA Indiana that decided the championship that game.
- [12:39]
Zach Lowe
If you think that you think OKC has now such an upper hand with home court advantage that they win game five and then all they got to do is split. I don't come out of this game feeling like it doesn't even feel like Oklahoma City still knows, like, what lineups to play and when like did the double big thing even work? Hardenstein was minus seven. Wallace is kind of just like down, down, down. 19 minutes, made one shot. Joe didn't play the second half. Wiggins eight minutes after that. Huge.
- [13:07]
Bill Simmons
No, they have six and a half guys. Zach, they're down at. They're down to six and a half.
- [13:11]
Zach Lowe
And are they going to now lean on the lineup? We thought they might start tonight, which was Caruso for Wallace, staying small. Yeah, that might be their best lineup. It's actually been. It was minus seven in the playoffs before this game. So I feel like there's still a little unsteady. Chet looks a little rickety on offense outside of a couple of putbacks and stuff. But, but so I'm not ready to go there. But there, there was a chance that this was like the NBA title was literally in the balance.
- [13:39]
Bill Simmons
That's how I felt leaving. I felt like Indiana blew it. And there's, there's two versions of blowing a game where you have like the, some of the comebacks Indiana had were like the Knicks in game one where you're like, not only do you just blow this game, I, I'm not sure we can emotionally come back from that. This one was like Indiana, it was kind of amazing. They were up 10 with, you know, late in the third quarter with how well OKC was playing defensively and how physical the game was. And Foster, we didn't mention him yet.
- [14:10]
Zach Lowe
Oh boy, here we go.
- [14:11]
Bill Simmons
It was just an abomination. It was a typical Scott Foster all over the map. Just involved like weird stoppages, missed calls, like calling touch fouls, then not calling somebody getting clubbed in the head. They had no control of this entire game. There was over 70 free throws. Both coaches were mad, both benches were mad.
- [14:31]
Zach Lowe
Everybody was mad.
- [14:32]
Bill Simmons
There was no rhyme or reason. All of a sudden they just started calling fouls and OKC in the fourth quarter that they'd been doing the whole game. They're like, yeah, we're going to start calling those now. Nobody could keep track of anything. So the game had no flow. But the thing, the biggest thing for me is if Indy can't run and he's not, you know, playing with pace in the half court offense. I just think it's really hard for them to score.
- [14:53]
Zach Lowe
Well, that's, that's both these teams and neither one can get any momentum running against the other. Toppin got a run out dunk in a transition, three at one point. But you look, it's like, how do you win a game? I don't even know what number is more alarming. Only making three threes or only attempting 17. Like Oklahoma City could not get any threes in this series.
- [15:12]
Bill Simmons
Nobody wanted to shoot them either.
- [15:14]
Zach Lowe
Their three point rate would be last by a mile now in the regular season. This will be 3 of their 5, 4 or 5 lowest 3 point rate games will now have been in this series for the whole hundred whatever games they've played.
- [15:27]
Bill Simmons
Wow.
- [15:27]
Zach Lowe
They can't get threes. The Pacers are just like, they're just filling gaps and flying out and they've got them second guessing. So how do you win a game when you make three threes? You take 17 and you have 10 assists. 10 assists.
- [15:41]
Bill Simmons
They had four assists in the second half too. They six at halftime, four in the second half.
- [15:46]
Zach Lowe
And they didn't win the turnover battle. The turnover battle is more or less even. The answer is 34 free throws. Shoot better from two and have an absolutely incredible defense that strangled the Pacers late in the game. But it's, it just and, and still feels. And the Caruso wild card game.
- [16:02]
Bill Simmons
Caruso 7 for 9. It felt like all of them were big shots. I feel like they, you know, I thought, I thought Thor was the best defensive player I saw this year and I thought he was massive in this game. Caruso was the most important trade of the year and he was massive in this game. And they, they at least know now because a game like this, and I know it's one thing to watch on tv, it's another thing to be in the building for it because there's just a different level of pressure, intensity. The fans were so loud and just for two hours, they're mad at the refs. They're going nuts for the team. That was the kind of like 10 out of 10 pressure atmosphere I think that team needed. And really what they found out was we've Caruso and Door. We have our two best guys and we have Chad and then. And this is probably, this is. We're going to ride or die with these five guys. And that's how it felt down the stretch. But what's crazy is they couldn't make any threes and it didn't matter. And that's just like in the NBA in 2025, to make three threes. You should never be able to win a must win game on the road. It should be impossible. They also hit their free throws, which we should have mentioned. They're 34 for 38.
- [17:12]
Zach Lowe
They're a great free throw shooting team.
- [17:14]
Bill Simmons
That's 90%.
- [17:15]
Zach Lowe
I think we should talk about Shay.
- [17:17]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [17:18]
Zach Lowe
And Shea in the second half, because it didn't feel like it was going to be a great Shay game for some of it.
- [17:26]
Bill Simmons
Get two points in the first quarter, basically, he.
- [17:29]
Zach Lowe
And he wasn't bringing the ball up at all, which is a red flag. Like, he's. He's. And then he gets. They change his substitution pattern so he comes out much earlier in the first and third quarters to, like, shorten his stints.
- [17:40]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [17:40]
Zach Lowe
And on a lot of these possessions. Part of the reason why, like, it's J Dub going one on one or whatever is if Shea starts off the ball, Nemhardt is just denying him, like, top locking him in the corner, just not letting him get the ball. And if he does that once, Shay, on a lot of these plays, will just kind of check himself out of the play, just like, all right, I guess someone else is going to do something. And it just felt like, boy, maybe they really have worn them down. Maybe this Pacer's machine, where it's like pitch and catch and run and screen and press you all over the place, maybe on only one day off between games, playing them four times, whatever. Maybe they've done to him what they've done to everybody they faced so far, and it wasn't pretty. It wasn't. None of it was easy. Like, you go look back at his baskets, his fouls, almost none of them were easy. There were, like, very few jailbreaks, like, the Pacers were given up in the first couple games, where he splits the pick and roll, and it's like a jailbreak to the rim. And he summoned what MVPs are supposed to summon. He summoned, like, enough energy, enough resourcefulness, enough tough jumpers to get them over the hump in this game. I thought. I mean, it was. Again, it wasn't, like, not a lot of highlights. Not. It doesn't necessarily a performance that, like, makes you feel super confident about the next game, but it was everything they needed to survive that game he gave them. I don't know what grade you would give it. I don't know what struck you about it.
- [18:58]
Bill Simmons
It's funny that was your takeaway, because I felt completely differently. I felt like they got over some sort of invisible hump.
- [19:04]
Zach Lowe
Well, I just think the. I. I want to. I'm just talking Shay specifically. I didn't necessarily feel like that kind of fourth quarter was going to even. I guess in early in the second quarter, he made a bunch of tough buckets to keep them afloat. It just.
- [19:17]
Bill Simmons
He just felt like he had two points. Then it felt like he made four tough shots in a row in the second quarter to take control of the game.
- [19:24]
Zach Lowe
So he summoned whatever he needed to summon. He did it.
- [19:28]
Bill Simmons
So it's 101, 97, 334 left. Okay, Neesmith hits second free throw coming out of the timeout. Yeah, Shay gets fouled, hits two free throws. Halber makes the driving layup. So now it's 103.99, 3, 20 left. And OKC's offense kind of broke down a little bit and. But that led to that Shay 3. It's the only one he made in the game. They get a stop because Caruso blocks them hard. And then Shay makes that step back and all of a sudden they were leading. And I think if we were watching, you know, those NBA Finals mini movies that the NBA makes and everything's in slow motion and they cut to the bench like this was the NBA Finals mini movie moment where Shay's three, which was, you know, a massive, massive shot because it went from four to all of a sudden they had the lead and then that other one. And it was like everyone in my section was like, what just happened? We were up four, and I didn't feel like Indiana was going to win after that. And that was one of the only times I felt that way the whole playoffs for them. Just felt like a fucking stomach punch.
- [20:32]
Zach Lowe
And look, OKC has been in this exact position before against Denver. Down 21 on the road season, maybe on the line.
- [20:45]
Bill Simmons
Who was that? Lou Dort hit a couple shots.
- [20:47]
Zach Lowe
That was. Yeah, no, I think that was game five was like the Dort game. Game four against Denver, I think was the one is a very low scoring game where like Wallace and Wiggins made a bunch of threes against the zone in the third quarter when it felt like they were really teetering in that game and they just. Another test that they survive and now they go home. And I mean, well, if you're Indiana.
- [21:10]
Bill Simmons
You'Re kicking yourself though.
- [21:11]
Zach Lowe
You're. You are. You are. Three threes and. And you, you. You give up three threes and you.
- [21:16]
Bill Simmons
Lose the game and you stopped running. And I, I'm not going to say they played scared. I thought they played tentative down the stretch. It was one of the few times we've seen them all year where they were kind of. They just weren't attacking like they normally do. I actually thought they made a mistake. And it's funny, cause he was terrible in the last minute of the game, Mather, and he missed the three out of four free throws, he had two dumb fouls, but I actually thought they needed him down the stretch because nobody could create anything and he is the one guy on their team who can actually create a basketball. And it's just. That's a lot. I like Nemhard, but that's a lot to ask for him to try to create shots. I also thought we should have mentioned this too. SGA's defense was really good in this game. Like he blocked a Halliburton 3, he tipped a couple passes. I just thought he was really active. And on top of what Dorton Crusoe was doing, it's in the running for best defense I've ever seen in person. When you're wondering how somebody can get the ball over mid court, that's like shit you worry about in 8th grade, not in like an NBA game.
- [22:16]
Zach Lowe
Shay is the best guard in the league at the. I switched onto a big man. He's posting me up and I'm going to jump over you and tap away the entry pass without fouling you.
- [22:27]
Bill Simmons
He's long ass arms.
- [22:29]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, he's the best guard in the league at that. We, we should also probably talk about Miles Turner. 3 of 10, 0 of 6 on 3. It just feels, it feels huge that he has not been able to get going for a lot of the series. And Carlisle is going to top in Siakam together more and more, which has been a successful lineup for them. Yeah, but Turner has got to make shots, especially if they're going to play drop coverage or, or come up to the level of the screen. He's going to be able to pop and get into a short roll game. He's just got to make some shots for them to win.
- [23:02]
Bill Simmons
So I think it was 2 for 10 last game is 3 for 10 this game.
- [23:05]
Zach Lowe
It's been a rough couple of games.
- [23:07]
Bill Simmons
He was getting the shots they wanted him to get. He was missing them. The guy behind, sitting behind me who, who was very upset at Scott Foster various points and just started screaming fuck you, Adam. During the fourth quarter, which I thought was fun.
- [23:19]
Zach Lowe
Yeah.
- [23:21]
Bill Simmons
But Miles missed one of those wide open threes at the top of the key, which he's made all year. And the guy behind me was just like, God, Miles, that's your shot. And that was, that was how I felt watching it. I'm not even a Pacers fan. I was like, miles, that's your shot. And they weren't misses, they were like missing right, missing left. There was a really bad Halbert nail airball near the end there was a couple like rebounded air balls where Indy got fouled.
- [23:46]
Zach Lowe
Smith just caught it under the rim.
- [23:47]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, if you did a collage of the fourth quarter misses, I think that would be pretty ugly.
- [23:53]
Zach Lowe
So you're feeling confident about okc?
- [23:55]
Bill Simmons
I think they got over the hump, but I really feel like Indy, I think there was a moment in that third quarter and then if they. When it was 86, 76 and I thought they had a chance to end it because you can't come back from 15 if you're not going to make threes. Right. You can do it if you're whoever but not, not a team that's not making any threes.
- [24:16]
Zach Lowe
Not taking them. That's the crazy. They can't even get them.
- [24:18]
Bill Simmons
So they missed that moment there and then that 10399. That SGA3 was just a backbreaker. When it cut it to one I felt you could feel the air go out of the, out of the arena for a second.
- [24:31]
Zach Lowe
Now maybe I'm wrong about this because Oklahoma City can certainly go home and just have one of those games where they force 22 turnovers and it doesn't even matter what they do on offense because they get 30 points in transition. Just run you out of the building. And if they get one one of those, that's three wins and they just need to play one more game and win. I still think they're going to have to find some kind of rhythm on offense to win two more times against the Pacers. I don't think the Pacers are now like mentally defeated and oh my God.
- [25:01]
Bill Simmons
So you don't think they found something with the two man game there?
- [25:04]
Zach Lowe
I think they found like, I mean it's, it shouldn't be a revelation. Like they've used that two man game before. I still think they have to make so.
- [25:11]
Bill Simmons
But they were, they were doing it every time. Every time. I felt like they were like, you can't stop this now. We're just going to do this until you stop.
- [25:17]
Zach Lowe
And it involves their two best perimeter defenders, Nemhardt and niece Smith. And so it shouldn't be as much of a threat as it was at the end of that game. But I think we'll see that. But I think they are going to have to establish a little bit more of a rhythm in their half court offense and improve their spacing a little bit and just like play. They've had a couple threes in this series where they've gotten them by setting flare screens off the ball like Leveraging Indiana's help against them. They got one tonight. Chet set a flare for somebody. I think it was Caruso. I just think they need to play with a little bit more purpose offensively to, to win twice more against Indiana because I don't think Indiana is like going away now that they've lost home court advantage. I think these are going to be tough.
- [26:03]
Bill Simmons
There's some, some things that are tough going against them now. You have Miles Turner now an official slump. You have an Indiana team that if they're, if they're trapped in the half card offense, with the way OKC was dialing them, they're going to dial it up at home too. Just really hard for them.
- [26:21]
Zach Lowe
And it's not like with the exception of the end of the last four minutes, let's say where I thought they stall out a little bit and lost a little bit of their snap. They're like running their stuff. Like there was a sequence where Toppin and Halliburton flipped the ball back and forth to each other like three times or four times in two seconds. And you could see Oklahoma City being like, God damn, can you just, can someone just dribble so we can stay still for a second? You know, they're running Halliburton like an off ball. Split actions like the warriors run. They're like doing, doing their stuff and Oklahoma City's just up for it for the most part. I do think they found something with Chet. Hey, Chet, can you just switch a little bit more just to keep us out of rotation a bit? They tried playing zone, that didn't really work. But I mean, their defense is just so. They're more talented and their defense is. Their defense is the best thing in the playoffs.
- [27:10]
Bill Simmons
I wrote down, it was after those two huge top and threes. And I agree with you on the defense. It was 80, 72. Indeed 4:11 left in the third quarter. And I wrote down threes. Indie 11 for 27, OKC 1 for 12. And I was sitting with Chen and I'm like, indies plus 10 and threes and they're up eight. That feels like not a good sign, right? If you're, if you're, if you're 1101 in threes, I'm just going to assume you're up by 15, 20 points. And it just. That, okay, see, was hanging around was such a credit to their, their defense. I, I thought OKC went to another level defensively. It was crazy watching OKC solve it and score. I mean, Indiana solve it and score. Even though OKC Was doing everything right and they were so physical. And then, you know, it would end up with some crazy top and three or a Siakam whirling move in or Nemhardt like. And it was like, Jesus, they're throwing everything at this team. They're still scoring. And then they ran out of.
- [28:12]
Zach Lowe
Albert had a couple just drives to the rim where they're again, they're trying to make him a driver and a playmaker, like a slower driving, Chris Paul style playmaker. And he had to drive to the rim. He had one where he like drove. Fake shot, fake pass, fake shot and then fake pass. Got somebody in open three in the corner.
- [28:31]
Bill Simmons
Well, connect. Can I just tell you, I've noticed two things in this series going to the games, which I knew anyway, but really jumped out to me. Halburn only goes right, Jalen Williams only goes left. And OKC just. They know Halburn's going right and they're just like basically preventing it. Indiana was not preventing Jalen Williams from going left over and over again. He loves going left and he just kept getting it. And then, and even if you kind of blocked it off, then he would do his little step back 12 footer.
- [29:00]
Zach Lowe
I thought he was tough shots.
- [29:02]
Bill Simmons
I thought he was brilliant.
- [29:03]
Zach Lowe
He was absolutely relentless.
- [29:05]
Bill Simmons
When he shut down Siakam too, and they were bringing. If Siakam came out, he would take, he would dagnall take Jalen Williams out, then he'd put him back in. If Sakam came in, I just thought he, he, he completely outplayed Sakam in the second half.
- [29:17]
Zach Lowe
He was awesome. And just the relentlessness he played with early in the game, it just felt like they needed to stay in touch. Like the game was. Didn't feel like it was going to go their way. It wasn't going their way. And he just drove and drove. 11 free throws, 11 of 11 at the line. He had one play.
- [29:34]
Bill Simmons
Tough, tough, tough plays too.
- [29:36]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, he had one play where it was a baseline out of bounds. He catches it in like the left corner. Ben Shepard was on a. Ben Shepard, you know, just a sort of nondescript 11 minutes today. And Ben Shepard just kind of overran the catch by a half step and J Dub saw it and seized on it and just drove middle with every bit of force he could summon and got fouled at the rim. It was like stuff like that. That's just tough.
- [29:58]
Bill Simmons
That's tough.
- [29:59]
Zach Lowe
That's how that hurts.
- [30:00]
Bill Simmons
Oh, I know we should mention this sooner. That game from a physicality, intensity standpoint was as good as it gets.
- [30:06]
Zach Lowe
I had a GM text me during the game or whatever the title is for the number one decision maker on a team. Text me during the game. How many games do you think we could find from the last 30 years that were harder played than these last two games? Like that's just. I mean I'm sure we could find some, but that's. People are no people around the league. You know, the rest of the league watches the finals. They watch for trends, they watch for like what wins at the biggest stages. And at least this one guy texted me and said this is like just the level of effort and physicality is the likes of which he almost literally hasn't seen.
- [30:41]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, there was that like real desperation and it wasn't just in the down the stretch. It was like the entire game. And I like I went to the, I went to the Denver Clippers Game 4, which I talked about in my pod. I thought that was an awesome game and both teams really brought it. And this was a level higher than that in that game. I was like, that felt like a game seven. When you go to game Sevens, they're almost, they're almost so desperate and so physical that usually they're not that good of a game. Usually the best games in a series are game four.
- [31:13]
Zach Lowe
I love a game four.
- [31:15]
Bill Simmons
You have the desperation, but there's, they're, they're not nervous and it's not ugly. This one was all of those things. Like it was. There were points where it was really well played. There were other parts where it was ugly. I thought the fourth quarter was actually pretty disappointing that Indiana just couldn't figure out how to score because I wanted to see how far they could push okc and they just, they can never kind of put OKC and like they're down seven with four minutes. They could never, they. Oh. Because he was always lingering, lingering, lingering. And I just. That's a tough one, man. You have those, you think about those that like the Celtics had that three years ago with the Steph Curry that game four in the finals when he just took off in the second half.
- [31:54]
Zach Lowe
And one of the best games I ever been to.
- [31:56]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. And you just sometimes, you know when you just know something has shifted.
- [32:03]
Zach Lowe
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- [33:44]
Bill Simmons
I'm in the car with you.
- [33:45]
Zach Lowe
Philly naturally comes up a lot because they're at number three and what are they going to do and this and that. So you're talking to people about the Sixers and you watch these games and how intense and how physical they are. The playoff it you just cannot overstate how long of a slog the playoffs are. If you're going to win four playoff series and start playing basically every other day for the second and third round and then you get some more off time in the finals.
- [34:10]
Bill Simmons
Then it's 18 days in the finals. Potentially it's like it feels like two.
- [34:13]
Zach Lowe
Thirds of a month. These two teams are relatively young, incredibly young in Oklahoma City's case, deep and pretty healthy. And the reason I bring up Philly is just like, everyone's like, yeah, you know, maybe they can get embiId to play 60, 65 games again in a season. It's just impossible to, like, imagine him playing a full playoffs at this level of intensity. Ten straight weeks, this level of minutes. It's just it. Watching it up close over and over again, round after round, the toll it takes on just the playoffs. Forget the first 82, just like the 20, whatever you need to win a title, wins and losses together, it's just an enormous toll on your body. And it's not a coincidence that we have two young, healthy, deep teams standing at the end and even they're like, going to get to the end of the series. Like, we couldn't play another series after this. Or like, I don't know what it would even look like.
- [35:03]
Bill Simmons
Game 3, Dallas, Boston in the finals was like that. I felt like. I thought it got to that level where they were really. There was a desperation on both sides. That was the only time. It's pretty rare to see an entire series of it because I feel like I thought game three kind of had the same vibes. This was a little different because. And you could feel it. Like I was watching the OKC during the timeouts. They knew. They. They know what's going on. They can't go down 3, 1.
- [35:31]
Zach Lowe
Even with home court, it's a tall order.
- [35:32]
Bill Simmons
The young guys were super quiet. Caruso was kind of the. He's the clapper fist pump veteran guy that every team needs. But. And SGA is just this calm Michael Myers force who just doesn't really talk. It was weird. He got called for a fourth foul and he was actually kind of mad. And so is dagnaut. It was weird to see them even rattled by a call.
- [35:53]
Zach Lowe
And that's when he got taken out of the game for 38 seconds.
- [35:55]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [35:56]
Zach Lowe
Like one possession, one Oklahoma City offensive.
- [35:59]
Bill Simmons
Right. Even to see them do that, it was like, oh, it was like the Russians cut. It was one of those moments. But for the most part, they're just business. Like, they do their business. And Dort is just like Ray Lewis out there. He really is. He's like a linebacker, like in the first half. And I don't know if the tv. I think the TV caught it after the fact. Mather shooting free throw. And Dorches elbowed Albert in the face like. Like for real. It was like a flagrant foul. It seemed like it wasn't a full.
- [36:29]
Zach Lowe
Flop, that's for sure. Like, he. He got. They got tangled up and he just did the Discard, like, just get off me.
- [36:36]
Bill Simmons
And there was. There was, like, two other times when it was clear I'm speaking for him. I don't know if he really thinks this, but he's like, howard might be a little soft. I'm going to test him a couple times. And he was, you know, be like hockey. He was Canadian hockey, enforcering. Then Caruso. Same thing. Like, these guys, it's a really. It's weird. You don't think of them as, like, a tough team, like, the way we would think of, like, the bad boy Pistons or something. There's. That team is tough.
- [37:03]
Zach Lowe
Yeah. They're not out to, like, be violent, but their physical. Their mentality is. Is unrelenting on those drives.
- [37:10]
Bill Simmons
Like, they. They want to, like, bang into you and knock you backwards.
- [37:14]
Zach Lowe
Well, Jay Will J. Dub Rather had a couple of hard fouls, a couple hard falls tonight. One on offense, one on defense. Just going like hell at the rim or going like hell to challenge a shot at the end on Mather. And yeah, they're. By the way, we're at the point with flagrant fouls now where I don't.
- [37:29]
Bill Simmons
Know what they are.
- [37:30]
Zach Lowe
You might as well just pick, like, three media members and be like, you guys are going to be the flagrant foul judges for tonight's game. You just. Two out of three. It's a flagrant.
- [37:37]
Bill Simmons
It's not flagrant because topping it, Caruso just seemed like a hard foul. Hardstein got mad about it for some reason. Then it was like, no, that was actually a flag. We were like, what, play a foul.
- [37:49]
Zach Lowe
And then top and club somebody in the head or somebody. You club topping somebody.
- [37:52]
Bill Simmons
Club top of the head. That's called that. Dort elbowed Halbert in the face. Not a flagrant. I don't know. I can't just maybe me, you and.
- [38:00]
Zach Lowe
And, you know, Howard Beck can just be like the flagrant foul committee.
- [38:04]
Bill Simmons
Would it give Scott Foster a chance to randomly just stop the game a couple more times and walk over the scores table for no reason?
- [38:10]
Zach Lowe
At least he could give us a little. A little Bill Kennedy mugging at the microphone. You know, he doesn't even vamp like that on the challenge. He was awful tonight.
- [38:19]
Bill Simmons
He was just awful. I knew he was going to be awful, and he was worse than I thought he was going to be because I think the officiating's been pretty good for the most part in the playoffs. Yeah, tonight was bad.
- [38:28]
Zach Lowe
It really. Oklahoma City really kind of felt their way through this game. Like, felt I didn't like the Way they started, I was like almost alarmed by the fact that coming out of the gate, they had Halliburton or they had Hartenstein blitzing Halliburton in the pick and roll. Like, to me, Halliburton is a guy that you just don't blitz because he's going to make the right easy pass every time. And they got a couple. They got to stop like Turner missile, jump shot. I was shocked that they had and it backfired a couple of times. I don't know if that's like something they might try again. I don't love it.
- [39:01]
Bill Simmons
We forgot to mention how they started the double bigs.
- [39:03]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, no, we mentioned it before. Like, I don't even. I don't even.
- [39:05]
Bill Simmons
I felt a little desperate.
- [39:06]
Zach Lowe
Did it work?
- [39:07]
Bill Simmons
Not really.
- [39:08]
Zach Lowe
Hardenstein was minus 7. Didn't feel like he had. I honestly think that change, I mean, Mark Dagnall will never explain anything in like, what they're actually thinking. I'll bet you that change was aimed at their offense more than their defense because of his screening, his passing. Like, hey, if you're going to top lock Shay, I can hit him on. I'm the guy who can hit him on Backdoor cuts. They're big to big passing, all that stuff.
- [39:35]
Bill Simmons
They didn't really use him like that though. I feel like he's declined as the playoffs have gone along and has basically turned into a backup center, which he was way more than that during the season. He was, I thought like this additive offensive player for them, but I did all the other stuff. I.
- [39:51]
Zach Lowe
Between games and rewatching game three, what I. My anticipation was whatever adjustments they make are going to be aimed at loosening up their offense a little bit. I don't think that they really succeeded tonight.
- [40:03]
Bill Simmons
I still think you didn't like the three for 17 from three.
- [40:07]
Zach Lowe
Well, I just, I. It's a little thing. I thought Joe would play more just because he's their best chance at like just some random guy gets on a heater and makes four threes in the second quarter. I thought he would play a little bit more. I thought they would play. Try playing five out again. Maybe like no bigs. Just try it. See how it works.
- [40:24]
Bill Simmons
Seemed like he just wanted the defense more than the offense in the second half at least. And then I agree with you, I thought it was going to be Wiggins. Cause I was watching Wiggins warm up before the game and it felt like he made 39 of 40 threes and just was like, ah, they might need those. And then he Missed one. We never saw him again.
- [40:41]
Zach Lowe
I mean, would. It's like Kenrich Williams played more minutes than Aaron Wiggins.
- [40:44]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, well, this is what happens as these series go along. It's. It's like soldiers on a battlefield. They start getting picked off one at a time, and all of a sudden you have six and a half guys left. If you're Indiana, like, you have a legitimate Miles Turner issue now, because I don't even think he thinks his shots going in and you got to take them. And you have Toppin, who has looked great, and he's given them energy. I thought it was a bad sign for the Pacers that they were putting their subs in with like five minutes left in the first quarter. That whole first half. I texted you at one point. It was 9:45, three minutes left. The first quarter felt like it took forever. And Carlisle started speed subbing. And then all of a sudden he brought his dudes in. But it was really early. It was, you know, there was still five minutes left. And all of a sudden McConnell and Toppin were in the game. And I just felt like. I don't feel like their subs had the same impact because of that today.
- [41:37]
Zach Lowe
McConnell had some moments in the first half. I don't really remember anything he did in the second half. And eight points, a lot of dribbling. Eighteen minutes. Matheran just not, not, not there tonight.
- [41:48]
Bill Simmons
And listen, somebody asked me before the game, you think Matheran will do it again? And I was in the bathroom and I was like, it was a treat in game three. I'm feeling a trick tonight for Matheran. Cause he's trick or treat.
- [42:00]
Zach Lowe
I mean, that's. That's how he is. That's how he is.
- [42:04]
Bill Simmons
I had a couple more notes for you.
- [42:05]
Zach Lowe
Go.
- [42:06]
Bill Simmons
Hold on. So. Oh, okc. I thought this was interesting. The first half just decided to give up. I know they ended up with some offensive rebounds, but they would take a shot and four guys would just go back. It was the old Doc Rivers end of the 2000 Celtics move of. They were just like, you can have the rebounds. They didn't want to get beaten so badly on those fast breaks that they threw the offensive rebounds away for a while, which I thought was an interesting strategy. They didn't stick with it, but that. That was a little grasping for straws. Ish to me. And then I thought the pace was so fast for them in the first quarter especially. And I wrote down in my notes this is what would happen when the Celtics were playing in it. Indiana just sucks. You into their pace. You're like, I don't want to play this fast. And then all of a sudden you're playing that fast. And in the second half, OKC figured out how to get the pace back. The second half was the OKC pace, especially the last 14 minutes, a little slower, a little more chaotic. That's where they want it. They don't want to be in a track meet with these guys.
- [43:16]
Zach Lowe
What other notes? You have any other notes you want to get to?
- [43:20]
Bill Simmons
I wrote down at the end of the first quarter in bold, reprehensible foster game. And it only got worse. No, I had the big picture. Oh, here's one. Where do you have Jalen Williams big picture right now? In general?
- [43:41]
Zach Lowe
I don't. I don't have any. I don't think I have like a hot. I think he made all NBA, right? I think he made third team all NBA is like the last guy in. I would not have had him on my third team all NBA ballot. I would have had him as like maybe the last guy out. And then you factor in like guys that were not eligible due to injuries. He's probably something like the 20th best player in the NBA and I think.
- [44:05]
Bill Simmons
I have him higher.
- [44:07]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, I don't. I mean like defensively, you, you. I had them all. Defense for sure.
- [44:11]
Bill Simmons
Cause you have your 10 guys and then it moves into that like Cade AD, Jalen Williams, Mobley, LeBron Booker. But that kind of category. Yeah, the stuff Jalen Williams was doing tonight. How elite he was as a two way guy. How fucking hard he plays.
- [44:29]
Zach Lowe
Oh look, there's nothing. I remember.
- [44:31]
Bill Simmons
He's shaken off all the young guy cobwebs at this point. Like he is like a fucking bull in a china show.
- [44:36]
Zach Lowe
I remember two years ago on NBA today we were doing. We were commenting over a Thunder highlight and I just screamed just two years ago, Jalen Williams is a star. Like he's a star and he's. It was clear he was going to be a star.
- [44:49]
Bill Simmons
Now he's might be. I think he might be a level higher than a star now. Like he's. He's a clear. You can win the title if he's your second best guy in the team.
- [44:57]
Zach Lowe
Well, we know that because they're two wins away from winning the title.
- [45:00]
Bill Simmons
But it was like is. He's 2A, Chet's 2B now. I don't know. I just. Those two games in person, I was just really impressed by. I felt like he's gone up a level maybe I'm crazy.
- [45:12]
Zach Lowe
A couple of big picture things.
- [45:13]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [45:14]
Zach Lowe
I would like to dispel something that is seeping into the media coverage of this finals. Oh, God, no. Well, no, no, no, no.
- [45:23]
Bill Simmons
Solitaire.
- [45:24]
Zach Lowe
I, I, Someone informed me about that after the game. I did not see it. I'm not. I'm laser focused, baby. I'm focused.
- [45:30]
Bill Simmons
I'm not. I heard rumors.
- [45:32]
Zach Lowe
No, there's no Twitter for me during the games.
- [45:33]
Bill Simmons
Okay. That's how I operate as well.
- [45:35]
Zach Lowe
Laser focused.
- [45:37]
Bill Simmons
We're at the game. What do I need to look at Twitter? I'm at the game. I can watch it.
- [45:40]
Zach Lowe
Anyone fucking talks to me during the game, you're not getting a response, all right?
- [45:44]
Bill Simmons
Really? I, I talked to Chet in the whole game. I just kind of narrated for him.
- [45:50]
Zach Lowe
So there's this notion that, like, we have all, we have all underestimated Indiana. And because we did not realize that. I'm not including us, because we did realize it, that after a slow 10 and 15 start, they became an elite team. That's true. I've seen a little bit of, like. Well, they're really. And even. I was talking to a couple people before the game on the sideline. I will not name who they were saying, yeah, you know, these teams are like neck and neck after January 1st. Like, that's the line of demarcation. They're neck and neck. And I just, like, I just want to. I just want to say it's not true. Like, so here. So after the paces are 10 and 15. Yeah, they've you red line at that moment. From that point on in the season, The Pacers go 40 and 17 with a net rating of plus 4.9. That was sixth in the NBA. Yeah, the Thunder go 49 and 9 with a net rating of plus 13, which is first by a mile. Which is to say, even if you just isolate when the Pacers started playing well, when Halliburton, who was more injured in the off season by the way, than people know, and I think maybe we will figure that out later when even if you isolate the season from that point forward, the Thunder are still way better on paper. Like, there's still a big gap on paper. Now, I think what we've discovered in the playoffs is you can kind of throw the paper a little bit to the side because just the way the Pacers play is extremely difficult to play against over and over and over again.
- [47:21]
Bill Simmons
And they were getting better and better at it.
- [47:22]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, they should. The, the paper gap shrinks because of the style difference, and styles make fights.
- [47:28]
Bill Simmons
It's like, what I said before about the stuff they were doing the first three quarters with the kind of defense OKC was playing was incredible to watch because OKC was playing a plus defense and Indiana was still, you know, getting good shots and running on them and hitting threes.
- [47:44]
Zach Lowe
And the other thing I would like to say.
- [47:46]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [47:48]
Zach Lowe
Is that the Pacers have successfully become a very good defensive team. And schematically they're. They're very. They're long, they're fast, they're smart. Halliburton has held his own. And that's the bar for the guard, the skinny guard, the Steph Curry guard, whatever. Just hold your own so that we don't have to bend everything to account for you. He's been pretty solid for the most part. And if you talk to people with the Pacers, it was your Boston Celtics that had the light bulb go on for him. That just those two games that he played before he got hurt in the conference finals. It was eye opening for him to be like, oh, they're really going to pick on me every single time.
- [48:32]
Bill Simmons
Right.
- [48:33]
Zach Lowe
Like, it's just, this is how it's going to be in the playoffs. Like, I've just got to get a little better. And he's done it. And their scheme in this series has been awesome. They're flying around and pick and roll coverages. When there's a jailbreak, someone will peel in from the perimeter, another guy will peel out. They're making those reads correctly. Can we play a game with Andrew? Nah.
- [48:51]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [48:52]
Zach Lowe
Because you're. I love. You're a redraft guy. Andrew Nemhard was the 31st pick in the 2022 draft.
- [48:58]
Bill Simmons
Incredible.
- [48:59]
Zach Lowe
And that's what's cool about this Pacers team. Like, and why it's hard to parse. Halliburton, all NBA guy, right? Gotta have that.
- [49:06]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [49:06]
Zach Lowe
Siakam borderline all Star.
- [49:09]
Bill Simmons
Like in the top 30.
- [49:11]
Zach Lowe
Like, he'll make the all star team. Some years, some years not.
- [49:13]
Bill Simmons
It's in the 20 to 30 range, usually.
- [49:15]
Zach Lowe
Second round pick, Nemhard, first round quote bust Neesmith reclamation project.
- [49:21]
Bill Simmons
Not for us. We never gave up our house, East Smith Island.
- [49:24]
Zach Lowe
We're like, we can't sell. It's like the values are going to keep going up.
- [49:29]
Bill Simmons
SJ was picking on him today. I did look at Redfin Miles Turner.
- [49:33]
Zach Lowe
Center, who's been in trade rumors for almost 10 years. It doesn't look like. It's not like the warriors starting five from 2015.
- [49:41]
Bill Simmons
No. Even when you look at the scoreboard and you're like, it's almost like they're missing a guy, but they're not.
- [49:46]
Zach Lowe
All right, let's play. Like, would you draft this guy over Nemharden? We'll see if we would redraft Nem hard.
- [49:51]
Bill Simmons
Okay.
- [49:52]
Zach Lowe
Paolo. Yes.
- [49:53]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [49:54]
Zach Lowe
Chet. Yes.
- [49:54]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [49:55]
Zach Lowe
Jabari Smith Jr.
- [49:59]
Bill Simmons
I mean, that's another one of my holdings.
- [50:02]
Zach Lowe
Me, too. I Love Jabari Smith Jr. I'm saying it's. It's a conversation.
- [50:06]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, it's a conversation. I. I think I'd rather. I really like Jabari Smith and I just think he's on the wrong team.
- [50:12]
Zach Lowe
I. I love his will.
- [50:14]
Bill Simmons
I just want to see him on another team. As I imagine him in the Pacers in the Miles Turner spot. I would enjoy that.
- [50:21]
Zach Lowe
Keegan Murray.
- [50:24]
Bill Simmons
Nemhard. A hundred times out of 100.
- [50:26]
Zach Lowe
Jaden Ivey.
- [50:28]
Bill Simmons
It's not fair because Ivy got hurt, but I would take them hard.
- [50:31]
Zach Lowe
Benedict Matherin, Nemhard, Shaden Sharp.
- [50:36]
Bill Simmons
So that's the same a game last year.
- [50:38]
Zach Lowe
I like Shaden Sharp. I like.
- [50:39]
Bill Simmons
I like winning titles.
- [50:39]
Zach Lowe
So I'm taking Nemhard, Dyson, Daniels.
- [50:42]
Bill Simmons
Oh, I'd probably take Daniels. Would you?
- [50:48]
Zach Lowe
I'd probably take. I'd probably take Daniels. Yeah.
- [50:51]
Bill Simmons
He was unbelievable last year.
- [50:52]
Zach Lowe
Jeremy Silhan. Now, here's the toughest one. Number 10, Johnny Davis.
- [51:00]
Bill Simmons
How did he do in Israel last year?
- [51:04]
Zach Lowe
Usman Jang.
- [51:05]
Bill Simmons
No, you're not going to hit anybody else, probably.
- [51:07]
Zach Lowe
No. J dub is number 12.
- [51:09]
Bill Simmons
Oh, so there you go.
- [51:10]
Zach Lowe
Jalen Duran. Then you go, oh, child. Like Andrew Nemhardt.
- [51:13]
Bill Simmons
Jalen Duran's an interesting conversation. I thought he was good last year.
- [51:16]
Zach Lowe
I'm a big fan. I'm just saying, like, there's a pretty good chance Andrew Nemhardt should have been a top 10 pick in the draft, and they got him at 31 with a pick they acquired in a trade. That's all. I just was like, I want to redraft this and see where it goes.
- [51:27]
Bill Simmons
They took him in the range where everybody thought he was going to go, though.
- [51:31]
Zach Lowe
I heard a good Andrew Nemhardt story actually today. So the bucks had the 24th. The Bucks, who have some off season dilemmas to sort out, maybe they're sorting the souls out. Maybe they. They are not. But part of the reason the Giannis future thing is a question is that they just like, who are the young players that are going to grow with Giannis that I can look around and say, oh, it's me and AJ Green in three years and who else? The Bucks had the 24th pick in the draft and they worked out Nem Hart, I think twice. Love Nemhardt all over Nemhardt even from what I heard, he even had to cancel a Pacers workout because he had to go back and work out for the Bucks. And the Bucks were picking seven spots ahead of the Pacers and they passed on him and they took Marshawn Beauchamp. And Nemhardt, who is an absolute mfer as a competitor like icy as hell, wants to kill you, has never ever forgotten about it and wants revenge on the Bucs all the time. It's like an underrated little piece of the Bucs Pacers rivalry. I don't know any other takeaways like as we head to game five.
- [52:33]
Bill Simmons
I heard a horrifying Halberton story about the draft today.
- [52:36]
Zach Lowe
Oh, God. Share it. Can you share it?
- [52:39]
Bill Simmons
The Boston story.
- [52:40]
Zach Lowe
Oh, boy. All right, let me look.
- [52:42]
Bill Simmons
Boston was picking 14 and that. And they loved. I knew this story and I think I bought that out of my mind. And then it was retold to me. Today they're picking 14 and they wanted to trade up for Halberton. Boston and Dallas are two teams trying to trade up for him. Boston had a better chance because they were 14 and they were trying to trade with a couple of the teams. And at some point Danny was on the phone with somebody and misunderstood what they said. The guy said he's not going to be there at 14, but Danny said he's going to. Danny thought he said he's going to be there at 14. So they didn't do the trade up because he's like he's going to be there at 14. So we heard. And then he got taken in.
- [53:22]
Zach Lowe
I thought we were going to have a Sacramento Brooks. Brooks situation again, like Dylan Brooks and Marshawn Brooks.
- [53:28]
Bill Simmons
No, it wasn't a Brooks thing, but they didn't trade up because he misheard the information.
- [53:32]
Zach Lowe
And who did the Boston Celtics take with the 14th pick?
- [53:34]
Bill Simmons
Aaron Neesmith.
- [53:35]
Zach Lowe
Aaron Neesmith, yeah.
- [53:36]
Bill Simmons
Cause the Phoenix picks seem pretty available at number 10. And somehow they ended up just taking Jalen Smith. Anyway. A lot of teams kicking themselves with Halbert.
- [53:44]
Zach Lowe
Any other notes on this game as we move forward to Game 5? Adjustments, counters, stuff you're looking for that we.
- [53:49]
Bill Simmons
I'll just say this. I. I flew to Indiana. It was a four hour flight, two games in three days. Was hoping they'd be really good. The games were spectacular.
- [54:00]
Zach Lowe
So intense.
- [54:00]
Bill Simmons
They were an A plus. I love the Indiana fans. I thought they were just awesome. My only critique would be don't Go completely silent when you get nervous when your own guy's at the line, just do some small chatter. When it goes from super loud to.
- [54:17]
Zach Lowe
I'll never forget being an MSG for game one of Pacers Knicks when Andenoby and Towns miss free throws.
- [54:23]
Bill Simmons
Same thing when it goes, well, it wasn't noise to noise.
- [54:25]
Zach Lowe
It wasn't just silence. They were going, no, don't do this.
- [54:31]
Bill Simmons
Just pretend. Just start talking about like, hey, have you seen your friends and neighbors? Like just have conversation, let the guy shoot. But I thought they were just awesome. And the atmosphere is great. Everybody loves basketball. Everybody seemed like they had their own tickets. Usually when you especially go to the finals, it seems like a lot some people sell or you have like a lot of corporate people. This was like just Pacer fans absolutely everywhere. My big Note is that McAfee did this monologue with like 10 minutes left. Did you see this in the scoreboard? And was talking about this is like a crucial part of the game. And he was doing this thing about we were six point underdogs and this is Indiana and. But. And it was just. It was the wrong timing. I would have gone second quarter for that. It was like this massive part of the game. And they were. They actually had to stop the game and wait for the monologue to finish before they started playing. And I thought that was really weird.
- [55:22]
Zach Lowe
Fourth quarter of a game that the.
- [55:25]
Bill Simmons
Biggest game of their.
- [55:26]
Zach Lowe
The most consequential game of the season so far.
- [55:29]
Bill Simmons
I was talking to somebody before the game. Is this the biggest NBA Pacers home game ever? This game tonight? This is before the game.
- [55:36]
Zach Lowe
I mean this is the first time they've ever been in the lead in the finals in the NBA.
- [55:40]
Bill Simmons
So the other one would have been Lakers 2004, game four, the Kobe game. But they were down two one in the series. This one they're up to one. And this is another piece of this. Now that we don't have 2, 32 anymore, it's like impossible to win three in a row in the 2, 3, 2 at home.
- [55:55]
Zach Lowe
I think as great as Oklahoma City is and with home court advantage, Pacers win this game and have all that momentum and all that good feelings and OKC is, is asking questions of themselves and feeling down. I don't think they can win three games in a row.
- [56:10]
Bill Simmons
I don't think so either at home. And I think six would have been really hard. But now it. You know, you and I both thought Indiana was going to win tonight.
- [56:17]
Zach Lowe
I did. I felt, I told. I said before you Know, just something in my gut. The way they finished game three, it just felt like Oklahoma City was a little frazzled and a little tired. And the way this game started, I was like, oh, okay. It feels like an Indiana win. It felt like an Indiana win for the first three quarters of the game.
- [56:34]
Bill Simmons
So what? So it almost became the OB topping game. So what This. I guess this game ended up with no name. It's the sga five points.
- [56:45]
Zach Lowe
I think it's the sga fourth quarter scoring at the sga. Maybe the Caruso. The Caruso. Another Caruso game. Another. Like how did this guy game.
- [56:54]
Bill Simmons
Really nice win. Good job by the Indiana fans though. They.
- [56:57]
Zach Lowe
I thought.
- [56:57]
Bill Simmons
I thought they did everything they possibly could and I've never heard matter fans in my life than they were at Scott Foster. Various points in that game. Really animosity.
- [57:08]
Zach Lowe
Are you. Would you make a pick now like an update? I mean both of us, our picks are wrong. We picked Oklahoma City in five before the series, I believe.
- [57:18]
Bill Simmons
You know, in the Godfather, Sollozzo tries to kill Vito Corleone. He shoots him and does die. And then he. He talks somebody later and he has dinner with Michael Corleone.
- [57:31]
Zach Lowe
Doesn't go well.
- [57:32]
Bill Simmons
Kwesky, Louis, we ends up getting shot to death.
- [57:34]
Zach Lowe
Yeah.
- [57:35]
Bill Simmons
And he's like, I missed my chance. Now I am the hunted one. It felt like. And I missed my. It felt like a salazo game for Indiana. They missed their chance. This was it. This was all lined up for them. They're up 10, Obi Topping at the line. OKC's rattled and young and playing twice in three days. The crowd's crazy. This was it. They had it. But we should know not to count them out either. I'm not going to. I'm not going to say they have no chance, but I just feel like OKC probably won the title tonight.
- [58:04]
Zach Lowe
Like I said before, I think Oklahoma City still has to make some adjustments offensively to pull this series out. I think, look, I picked Oklahoma City to win in five. I still think they're going to win the series, but I think it's going to be a tough, I don't know, six, seven, whatever. I don't care. I think they're going to win the series, but I wouldn't count Indiana out. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn. As a small business owner, you don't have the luxury of clocking out earlier. Your business is on your mind 24 7. So when you're hiring, you need a partner that grinds just as hard as you do that hiring partner is LinkedIn Jobs. When you clock out, LinkedIn clocks in. LinkedIn helps you write job descriptions fast and then get your post in front of the right people. With smart candidate insights. You can either post for free or promote it to get three times more qualified applicants. At the end of the day, the most important thing to your small business is the quality of the candidates. And with LinkedIn you can feel confident that you're getting the best. In fact, 72% of small businesses say LinkedIn helps them find high quality talent. Post your job for free@LinkedIn.com responsible. Terms and conditions apply. This episode is brought to you by Factor. I love summer. More sun, more light, more time to do all the things that make summer so special. And the number one thing you don't want to be doing all summer? Spending hours cooking inside. Damn right. That's where Factor comes in. Factor Chef crafted Dietitian approved meals are ready in just two minutes. Taking the hassle out of eating well. The meals arrive fresh and ready to eat, perfect for your active lifestyle over summer and beyond. In fact, Factor can power your day. Sun up to sundown. Think nutritious breakfasts on the go, lunches, premium dinners, guilt free snacks and desserts. They've got your whole day covered. If you guys want to enjoy more of this summer, get Factor for all the flavor and none of the fuss, get started@Factor Meals.com low 50 off and use code low 50 off to get 50% off plus free shipping on your first box. That's code low 50 off at Factor Meals.com low 50 off for 50% off plus free shipping. Factorymeals.com low 50 off should we do some off season stuff before?
- [60:12]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, let's do it.
- [60:14]
Zach Lowe
Durant.
- [60:15]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, it's Durant. Everybody's going to happen right when you're at a party tomorrow night.
- [60:19]
Zach Lowe
I know everyone's talking about Durant. Everyone. The league is talking. Every team is talking. I would say the Buzz order right now if I had to do a Buzz rank.
- [60:34]
Bill Simmons
Is Minnesota not as sold on that one as you?
- [60:38]
Zach Lowe
No, I'm not. I'm just saying Buzz. Like the Buzz.
- [60:40]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [60:40]
Zach Lowe
Yeah. Houston back up in the Buzz rankings.
- [60:45]
Bill Simmons
That's another weird one because you're giving away possible Giannis assets for December to February. If that situation changes, we'll talk about Giannis. We don't need to. He's not getting traded.
- [60:56]
Zach Lowe
I think you're probably right.
- [60:58]
Bill Simmons
He's not going to. He's staying this summer. I mean, he might get traded in December January, February. He's not getting traded.
- [61:02]
Zach Lowe
The thing about that is, I think we. I can't remember what we talked about or not, but this. The whole gap year thing. Like, you know, gap year, like, east is. East is crappy. Keep everybody. We'll be competitive. We'll be a top six seed. You'll be happy. And then we get Dame back, and either we get Damian Lillard back, or we get Damian Lillard, the trade contract back and we flip him for something.
- [61:24]
Bill Simmons
Or he's Dana Barrow circa 1998.
- [61:26]
Zach Lowe
Like, I don't understand how that's a plan to, like, be an actual championship contender again. Where are all the other players coming from? Like, who else is joining?
- [61:35]
Bill Simmons
I just don't think there's a trade yet. And I don't think he's. It's up to him and he doesn't want to get traded.
- [61:41]
Zach Lowe
That it is firmly up to him. Like, the interesting thing about this is you would think that some people with the Bucks nag. Maybe you wouldn't. Initially, I was like, well, the Bucks could see this as an opportunity. Like, look, the writing's on the wall. Dame's. Dame's hurt for a year. We don't have any bullets left in the trade machine. Like, it might be actually not so much in our worst interest to move on now and get everything we can possibly get. Get the young players, assets, picks, and they've actually gone the other way. And I think they're probably right. He's 31. He's the third best player in the world, and he would have loved playing.
- [62:20]
Bill Simmons
In the game today because bodies were flying.
- [62:22]
Zach Lowe
Yeah. And we don't trade players like that. No team should trade players like that. We'll figure enough out and try to figure out a path. Whether it's one years, two years, three years. We've seen players stick with their teams. I think they've gone hard the other way. Like, no, hell, no. We're not trading under contract.
- [62:36]
Bill Simmons
Like, also, you're under contract, serious, and not think that you're two moves away from being in the finals next year.
- [62:42]
Zach Lowe
And you have Giannis, but what are the moves? That's.
- [62:44]
Bill Simmons
I know, but I'm. I'm just. If I'm trading him and I'm. I'm trading him for a bunch of Houston stuff that, you know, they lost in round one. All right, all right.
- [62:51]
Zach Lowe
The ramp. The ramp buzz, then it's like a big.
- [62:54]
Bill Simmons
So you agree with me that Giannis, like, let's not even discuss this until December. January. February. Because nothing's going to happen.
- [63:00]
Zach Lowe
I don't. We all know who the teams would be, what the offers would ballpark be.
- [63:04]
Bill Simmons
I think there's one more team that's not going to mention because it does. Wouldn't make sense, but it might later. The Nets of Brooklyn they could set up. So not to bring the Celtics into this, although I love to do it. But Celtics after they lose the lottery in 2007, you would not have thought they were a KG team. Then they trade for real and suddenly they have stuff and now maybe a KG trade. I think Brooklyn could use the summer to set up to. To stack some pieces to be ready for a Yanis trade. Right. Maybe they take Drew Holiday from the Celtics. Maybe they use cap space and sign Nas Reed. You know, they. They have all those picks. I just feel like they could. It could be a two part kind of off season for them where they set up. Hey, look at all these pieces we have now. Giannis and kind of hope that he gets unhappy.
- [63:59]
Zach Lowe
All right, Minnesota, Houston and then I think there's a gap.
- [64:03]
Bill Simmons
We argued about the Minnesota thing though because we can't figure out what the trade is. That's Bears in it.
- [64:07]
Zach Lowe
We'll get there. Miami still trying to get in, I think.
- [64:11]
Bill Simmons
Wow.
- [64:12]
Zach Lowe
Spurs lurking? Not sure. Like are we. Are we going to be that aggressive? Is this the right time for us lurking? Knicks I think might not be lurking anymore. I think they might be out. We're moving on. Toronto wild card team lurking.
- [64:31]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, because Messiah's just like, you just don't know.
- [64:37]
Zach Lowe
And I think there's this idea.
- [64:38]
Bill Simmons
The relative who said five drinks at Thanksgiving and you're like, oh God, well, and that.
- [64:43]
Zach Lowe
And just hovering over all of this is Durant's eligible for a two year $112 million extension and he's 38. Is he going to sign it? Does he actually want to commit or does he want to maintain his flexibility? Do the Suns. They are working with him, but does it behoove them to just trade him to where they get the most value? Even if that team is a rental team for Kevin Durant and is there a team that would trade for him? We don't care if you extend or not. We'll figure it out later. Toronto did this with Kawhi Leonard and I think they have this idea like, oh, we can do that again. The difference is they were like a 55 win team already.
- [65:21]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, they were awesome.
- [65:22]
Zach Lowe
And this is not a.
- [65:23]
Bill Simmons
And they won. The trade they traded. It was. What was it? DeRozan.
- [65:27]
Zach Lowe
Yeah. Yeah, I so the Minnesota one is complicated because right now, until the fiscal, the NBA year flips on July 1, Phoenix and Minnesota are both in the second.
- [65:39]
Bill Simmons
April, you would have to be like, we're going to do this trade on July 1st. Basically.
- [65:43]
Zach Lowe
That's barring something that I don't understand happening. Yes.
- [65:47]
Bill Simmons
But then there's this weird thing where Go Bear salary goes backwards and him and defenseo make like 47 million combined and Durant makes like 53. And I still don't understand what's allowed and not allowed with this stupid second apron that I'll never forgive the stupid players union for agreeing to the hard cap.
- [66:07]
Zach Lowe
Why don't we just call it the hard cap?
- [66:08]
Bill Simmons
It's. It's just malpractice. Is malpractice by the players union?
- [66:13]
Zach Lowe
I mean, is there a team. I think Minnesota wants Durant the most from what I've heard. Houston is like. I think there's a little bit of an internal GM coach different, different idea of how much they should or would trade for Kevin Durant. Plus if I'm Phoenix and you're building an offer around Jalen Green, which I think that's like the common sense salary to throw in.
- [66:33]
Bill Simmons
How does that help Phoenix, Jalen Green.
- [66:35]
Zach Lowe
Booker Beal, it's like it just doesn't.
- [66:37]
Bill Simmons
The Gobert thing's fun.
- [66:39]
Zach Lowe
Go Bear thing is like go Bear.
- [66:41]
Bill Simmons
And defense out for Duran is just fun. I don't know how that makes Minnesota closer to winning a title.
- [66:49]
Zach Lowe
I think their model would be we, whatever we do, we get enough financial flexibility for the 25, 26 season where we can pick up a capella, a Brook Lopez, like some kind of low cost, decent center who can either start and play 20 minutes or, you know, we start Nas Reed at center and go all offense and then that guy comes in. I think they piece it together that way. If they end up trading Gobert, which I. Who knows if they're going to do or not.
- [67:20]
Bill Simmons
I thought Durant to the spurs was happening.
- [67:23]
Zach Lowe
I, I'm still.
- [67:24]
Bill Simmons
I'm suspicious if it cooled off because it makes me think maybe there's a different move for them.
- [67:31]
Zach Lowe
I will say things are.
- [67:32]
Bill Simmons
I think the trip, a little bit of a minor trade back from two and somebody moving up and overpaying to move up three spots. Cause we, we talked about this last time. You're putting Wemby with Harper and Fox and Castle and Sohan is nobody. Is anybody making a three out of those guys? Like the game we just went to. How's the spacing going? To be looking in that game, like, I just don't think that team makes sense. And that's, that's, I still feel like in my heart that Facil and Barnes and the fifth, 14th pick and like.
- [68:09]
Zach Lowe
14, 14 is a big one. Houston has 10, too. They have number 10 from Phoenix.
- [68:15]
Bill Simmons
You mean for a move up?
- [68:16]
Zach Lowe
No, for like, for Durant. Like throw that.
- [68:19]
Bill Simmons
I wouldn't give up the 10 for I, I. If I'm Houston, I'm not doing anything. I'm waiting for December, January, February with a major star.
- [68:29]
Zach Lowe
I do like the fit, though.
- [68:30]
Bill Simmons
I like Durant. Yeah, well, we both heard that he wouldn't mind Texas.
- [68:35]
Zach Lowe
Well, I just, I mean, he's from Texas. The spurs are also in Texas.
- [68:38]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, two Texas teams.
- [68:40]
Zach Lowe
There's something to the Van Vliet stays and like they really, financially it becomes actually very difficult and Van Vliet salary is a critical variable. Like can they go down with him and out on an extension to make the apron math work? But Van Vliet, Durant, Sengun as an offensive trio makes a lot of sense to me. And then you just surround them with the Terror twins and just athletes and defenders and just everywhere. Like, that's a really good team that.
- [69:09]
Bill Simmons
Needs him the most.
- [69:10]
Zach Lowe
It's a really good team. That's a team that's like, yeah, I mean, you know, we can we beat anybody. We would be favored against anybody except the Thunder. I don't know. It depends on the offseason Shakes out. Nuggets are not going anywhere.
- [69:23]
Bill Simmons
Unbelievable home crowd of empty seats. Not one of my favorite crowds. Not like the crowd we just sat in a game with.
- [69:31]
Zach Lowe
Nuggets are going to have a new gm, I think, by the way, but that's a different story.
- [69:35]
Bill Simmons
Well, they, they hired the coach before they hired the gm.
- [69:40]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, the coach was already there, though.
- [69:42]
Bill Simmons
No, I know.
- [69:43]
Zach Lowe
Is there a team you think that we haven't talked about for Durant that should be trying to get Durant? If you, and if you had to bet, would you bet on San Antonio then and come at swooping in?
- [69:53]
Bill Simmons
I would bet on the state of Texas.
- [69:55]
Zach Lowe
All right. I'm betting on Minnesota.
- [69:58]
Bill Simmons
I don't know. I just think when push comes to shove, I think you have to look at the happiness factor and wonder why he hasn't seem to be in happy situations for seven years now. What's going on? Is that a coincidence or something more? I already have one.
- [70:22]
Zach Lowe
And also, and also like he's going to, if he goes to Minnesota, he's going to Be the number two ball handling option to a young ascending star in Anthony Edwards, just like he was in Phoenix. To Devin Booker, like, how does he feel about that? There was always this push and pull of like, am I standing in the corner too much? Whatever, you know, do they cooperate enough offensively? Is there a synergy between them? And the same questions would come up again.
- [70:48]
Bill Simmons
Are we sure we should cross off Detroit?
- [70:51]
Zach Lowe
No, they're on my list. I mean, I don't know that they've dabbled in it at all. I don't know if they're, I mean, it's one of my favorite. Fake team. Fake again. The east is going to be so bad.
- [71:01]
Bill Simmons
You could just basically throw together.
- [71:03]
Zach Lowe
Oh, it's right there.
- [71:04]
Bill Simmons
The last year, Tobias.
- [71:09]
Zach Lowe
Isaiah Stewart gets.
- [71:10]
Bill Simmons
You to 42 million.
- [71:11]
Zach Lowe
You gotta give me something. Or you gotta give me pics or you gotta give me ivy. You gotta give me something. But yeah, that, the salary matches right there.
- [71:19]
Bill Simmons
It's gonna be Texas.
- [71:20]
Zach Lowe
Cade Durant.
- [71:22]
Bill Simmons
I just can't wait to see what kind of life event you're having when the trade happens. Well, do like you're, you're gonna be like in some SW, in some over 40 swim meet in Connecticut and like halfway through the breaststroke and the trade.
- [71:37]
Zach Lowe
Will happen the next 72 hours. I have a lot of stuff going on, so I'm anticipating a trade happening there. And you know what?
- [71:45]
Bill Simmons
Can trades happen during the finals?
- [71:47]
Zach Lowe
Yes, we've had trades during the finals. Denver made a couple trades during. Denver made a trade when they were in the finals. The draft pick trade. But they made a trade.
- [71:55]
Bill Simmons
I actually went on the, you know.
- [71:56]
Zach Lowe
What trade happened in the finals? Net salary dump to set up the Durant Kyrie free agency bonanza. They made a salary dump during the finals. I don't remember who it was off the top of my head.
- [72:07]
Bill Simmons
I've already found my point guard for the Nuggets for the. That's a $6 million taxpayer. Russ is out. He did.
- [72:16]
Zach Lowe
I know. Resigned. Russ at a bigger number.
- [72:18]
Bill Simmons
I, I, I'm buying some, some property on Luke Canard Jokic Island. Oh, yeah, Luke Canard.
- [72:28]
Zach Lowe
He might shoot 60% on threes.
- [72:30]
Bill Simmons
Can you imagine Luke Canard playing with Jokic? How much fun would that be? Has Luke and I'd ever been on the right team? He's been in the league like 10 years. Has there ever been a good situation for him? You get to play with Jokic and just do weird lefty shit and shoot threes.
- [72:44]
Zach Lowe
I thought the, I think the Clippers thought they would be the perfect situation for him. And they just never trusted him to play defensively in the playoffs. I like that Luke canard.
- [72:53]
Bill Simmons
That's a 6 million bucks for Luke Canard.
- [72:55]
Zach Lowe
I think that can't believe that's coming out.
- [72:56]
Bill Simmons
And yeah, I'm already doing my free agency homework.
- [72:58]
Zach Lowe
Just groggy. Just groggy.
- [73:00]
Bill Simmons
Bill, nobody has money.
- [73:02]
Zach Lowe
Nobody.
- [73:02]
Bill Simmons
Everybody's either. It's either 6 million or 10 million for like 30 guys.
- [73:06]
Zach Lowe
And, and Brooklyn is the one that has money. And I honestly think Brooklyn is just going to tank again. Just give us your give us dead money and picks. We're just doing. We're just rolling it again.
- [73:18]
Bill Simmons
After what Presti did. That should be the model for five of these teams. I never under, I never understand why more people haven't emulated that. Everyone's so afraid of the salary cap for. But the salary cap for only counts, like after on March 1st. You can go into the season with like a $30 million team.
- [73:37]
Zach Lowe
No, I think they should. They changed that rule. You got to get to the floor sooner. No, I think.
- [73:40]
Bill Simmons
Oh, did they?
- [73:41]
Zach Lowe
That was part of the new CBA.
- [73:43]
Bill Simmons
For the try to continue to ruin roster fun.
- [73:47]
Zach Lowe
Well, I mean, I think that was when you said the players got hammered with the hard cap. I'm calling it the hard cap now. Enough with this apron language. Second apron is a hard cap.
- [73:56]
Bill Simmons
I think if we can't make a Kevin Durant for Rudy Gobert and Dante Gfenchenjo trade becomes impossible. Like we, we're doing something wrong.
- [74:04]
Zach Lowe
You know, honestly, you go. The other thing is you go to real GM and you look at the traded picks, these like swaps of swaps of swaps and it's like they get the second and fourth best of these picks. I'm like, I'm not reading that whole paragraph. Just wake me up when it's decided who's picking where.
- [74:18]
Bill Simmons
I feel like Stern would have created a rule to just squash all this. You can't trade a pick that's already been traded. He would have had some sort of.
- [74:26]
Zach Lowe
Swaps upon swaps upon swaps. No Larry Legend sighting tonight, right?
- [74:31]
Bill Simmons
I thought it was a big mistake.
- [74:33]
Zach Lowe
I, I, I've heard, I cannot confirm because I have not seen him. I've heard he's been here for their pre draft workouts. They still bring they still bring him up for pre draft workouts, which means he's either leaving or they've just he doesn't want to.
- [74:48]
Bill Simmons
Can we? Because we're super groggy. Can I throw this at You.
- [74:51]
Zach Lowe
Yes.
- [74:53]
Bill Simmons
Most shocking player you think could get traded over the next three weeks.
- [74:58]
Zach Lowe
This is so exciting.
- [74:59]
Bill Simmons
That wouldn't be 100% shocking to you, minus Devin Booker.
- [75:09]
Zach Lowe
I mean, 100% shocking means.
- [75:12]
Bill Simmons
100% shocking means, like, it would not be spurs have traded Wembanyama. Like, that's.
- [75:17]
Zach Lowe
That's 100% shock. Anything short of that, I don't think Devin Booker's getting traded. I'm.
- [75:22]
Bill Simmons
He's my guy.
- [75:23]
Zach Lowe
Why?
- [75:26]
Bill Simmons
I'm just prepared for anything with Phoenix. Like, the easy pick would be lamella ball.
- [75:36]
Zach Lowe
I mean, I could. I could make a. We could easily make a more. A more aggregatable pick than that.
- [75:43]
Bill Simmons
You could.
- [75:44]
Zach Lowe
We could. We both could. We. Either one of us could.
- [75:47]
Bill Simmons
If the warriors tried to trade for Giannis. Is Jimmy Butler in the deal Salary.
- [75:54]
Zach Lowe
Jimmy Butler getting traded to the sad sack Bucks?
- [75:56]
Bill Simmons
He's from. He went to college.
- [75:58]
Zach Lowe
I know, but, like, what was he going to do? Throw a rebellion until they buy him out and trade him some or. And he can go somewhere else?
- [76:05]
Bill Simmons
I don't.
- [76:06]
Zach Lowe
Some big salary's got to be in that deal.
- [76:08]
Bill Simmons
If you go and look at the warriors salaries now you're trading Giannis after said he's not getting, like, December, January, February.
- [76:15]
Zach Lowe
Why would he do it like that? Mid season. Like, is it going south and I just. I'm ready to get out of here. Then it becomes harder.
- [76:21]
Bill Simmons
13 and 20. I don't want to waste my career doing this. Dame's not close to coming back.
- [76:29]
Zach Lowe
Devin Booker. I've heard.
- [76:31]
Bill Simmons
Top Devin Booker.
- [76:32]
Zach Lowe
I've heard he's excited about Jordan Otto.
- [76:34]
Bill Simmons
Okay.
- [76:35]
Zach Lowe
And not as concerned as I would be personally.
- [76:38]
Bill Simmons
So give me a pick then about.
- [76:39]
Zach Lowe
Like, who's going to be on the team in two years with me if I'm Devin Booker. Like, is it all right. Oh, so Godoro. Godaro. Ryan done. Ryan Dunn with two ends. I'm passing to you also.
- [76:49]
Bill Simmons
They're in the West.
- [76:51]
Zach Lowe
Yeah. The west is play.
- [76:52]
Bill Simmons
Okc.
- [76:53]
Zach Lowe
All right, well, why don't we. Okay. We're getting. It's late. It's late. You said not 100%.
- [77:01]
Bill Simmons
Shocking, but shocking.
- [77:04]
Zach Lowe
No, but. But very shocking.
- [77:06]
Bill Simmons
Very shocking. But not Luca getting traded on a Saturday night.
- [77:11]
Zach Lowe
Oh, my God.
- [77:12]
Bill Simmons
Shocking.
- [77:14]
Zach Lowe
Unemployed Zach.
- [77:15]
Bill Simmons
Actually, Luca would have been a good guess.
- [77:16]
Zach Lowe
Unemployed Zach. Sleeping. Sleeping soundly in bed. Waking up to a phone full of messages. All right, then let's just do this. Are you 100% sure?
- [77:27]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [77:27]
Zach Lowe
That LeBron James is going to be on the Lakers next year?
- [77:30]
Bill Simmons
No.
- [77:32]
Zach Lowe
Well, there then that's Going to be my pick.
- [77:35]
Bill Simmons
Give me the reasons.
- [77:36]
Zach Lowe
Well, I just, I mean, no one's. I, I'm. I have anticipated all along he's going to finish his career with the Lakers. Yeah, I don't think he wants to leave Los Angeles. If I were him, I would view the Luca trade as like, this is fucking perfect. I can, I can be off the ball a little bit more. Blah, blah, blah. He does have a player option. And the feeling is just everyone just kind of assumes, well, I'll figure something out.
- [78:00]
Bill Simmons
It's been too quiet. Normally he creates the news for a day kind of storyline like, LeBron James might not stay with the Lakers. It'll be something. And it was like, oh, here we go. And then it turns out he's staying. This time around, it's been super quiet, which makes me suspicious. I've thought the same thing. But if he's opting out or if they're pushing for a trade. I mean, I talked about the Cleveland stuff a month ago. I don't. There's just not a lot of places did you.
- [78:29]
Zach Lowe
I missed that.
- [78:29]
Bill Simmons
I was just. I thought it was like a DeAndre Hunter. Jared Allen for LeBron is a fun one. It is definitely a. Who would have a longer meeting to decide whether they should do it or not. I don't see how he goes to any other team than Cleveland if he leaves the Lakers.
- [78:48]
Zach Lowe
I'm trying to think who else is a good answer for this. Something Clippers. Something Clippers.
- [78:55]
Bill Simmons
Harden's a good answer for this.
- [78:56]
Zach Lowe
Or even Kawhi feels like a.
- [78:59]
Bill Simmons
Well, nobody's traded for Kawhi. Yes, Harden's a good answer for this.
- [79:02]
Zach Lowe
John Morant.
- [79:05]
Bill Simmons
That's a good answer for this Embiid.
- [79:08]
Zach Lowe
I just can't imagine trading for Embiid. The contract is just so onerous.
- [79:14]
Bill Simmons
Even Sarver's like, yeah, I don't know.
- [79:16]
Zach Lowe
Other thing is Knicks coach Mike Brown, Taylor Jenkins, come on down.
- [79:21]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, it seems like that. And probably some mystery candidate.
- [79:25]
Zach Lowe
I envisioned a joint Rick Carlisle, Mark Dagnall press conference at the Finals when they both announced that their teams have denied the Knicks permission to interview.
- [79:34]
Bill Simmons
They should have. But is it. Are they doing it just to. Are they trying to spite the owner by doing that or are they doing it so that whoever they hire, nobody's gonna say, why didn't they try to get in Doko and they. They're like just checking boxes.
- [79:50]
Zach Lowe
I don't know.
- [79:50]
Bill Simmons
All very strange.
- [79:51]
Zach Lowe
I don't know. Public due diligence. If you're. If that's Your reason? If you're doing public due diligence, I don't get it. Then you should just call for Spoelstra. You should call everybody. Like, why stop at Billy Donovan? Why just keep going if that's. If you're trying to show your fans we did everything we could.
- [80:07]
Bill Simmons
See, I had a couple of Miami fans in my life who were furious that I wanted to blow up the heat.
- [80:13]
Zach Lowe
Really.
- [80:13]
Bill Simmons
And I'm like, why? You guys are going to go 40 and 2 and 40 for the next five years? You pay Tyler Hero $55 million a year. What kind of team are you going to have?
- [80:24]
Zach Lowe
Did you see the clip? That again, I assume everything is AI, so maybe it's AI.
- [80:28]
Bill Simmons
Tyler Hero doesn't think history happened before 1950.
- [80:31]
Zach Lowe
Doesn't believe anything that happened before 1950. Not a lot of great follow up questions by the other two guys in the video either. I would have been like, so World War II just. Just made up like it's right before 1950.
- [80:42]
Bill Simmons
I don't know for sure, but it felt like there might have been some weed involved in that, in that video because they seemed delighted to talk about how history couldn't be trusted before 1950.
- [80:52]
Zach Lowe
So that was not AI. That was real.
- [80:54]
Bill Simmons
Was unfortunately real.
- [80:56]
Zach Lowe
All right, any other concluding thoughts? Anything? We did not talk about game four of the Finals. Awesome Indiana, awesome Finals host. Indianapolis, awesome Finals host. Lots of X's and O's. We talked Durant, we talked Giannis, we talked offseason Knicks coaching search. Johnny Furfee came up at one point. Anything we did not hit, guy in.
- [81:15]
Bill Simmons
Front of me was wearing an Artest jersey, our test Pacers jersey. I really respected it. Number 23. I really like seeing the different jerseys. I like that they bring old Pacers in there. Like Austin Crosier. We got to see him.
- [81:31]
Zach Lowe
Jeff Foster. Jeff Foster, everybody.
- [81:34]
Bill Simmons
Reggie Miller was wearing a Dale Davis jersey, which I really enjoyed.
- [81:37]
Zach Lowe
I loved Dale Davis as a, as a teenager.
- [81:41]
Bill Simmons
Darnell Hillman was in the house with Billy Keller.
- [81:44]
Zach Lowe
Oh, my God.
- [81:45]
Bill Simmons
It was just. This is. They. I mean, they've had professional basketball here since the beginning of the aba and they have real history and have had some fun teams.
- [81:53]
Zach Lowe
And they're also kind of like there are these teams, like the Suns are like this in the west, where they've just been good a lot, like for the most of their history and just never gotten over the hump.
- [82:04]
Bill Simmons
Never good enough.
- [82:05]
Zach Lowe
Yeah.
- [82:05]
Bill Simmons
And really, Roy Hibbert was there, by the way.
- [82:08]
Zach Lowe
Roy was there.
- [82:09]
Bill Simmons
Shout out to Roy.
- [82:09]
Zach Lowe
I didn't See him. Unbelievable career arc.
- [82:13]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. There are Pacers strewn all over the place.
- [82:16]
Zach Lowe
That's great.
- [82:17]
Bill Simmons
I love it.
- [82:18]
Zach Lowe
Derek McKee was here. I saw Derek McKee was in the crowd.
- [82:22]
Bill Simmons
It's so much more fun from content standpoint if the Pacers won tonight.
- [82:28]
Zach Lowe
You think so? More fun?
- [82:30]
Bill Simmons
Cause I. Cause I do think OKC is good enough that they could have come back from 3:1.
- [82:34]
Zach Lowe
We would be having a who's your front runner for finals MVP discussion.
- [82:38]
Bill Simmons
Well, my. My degenerate friend Sal House. I'm on one of my threads, they were saying Siakam's odds dropped by like the third quarter. He was like plus two. 50 for finals MVP was like 30 to 1 before the game. What was Halliburton going the other way?
- [82:55]
Zach Lowe
Yeah.
- [82:56]
Bill Simmons
Now it's. I think. Sj.
- [82:58]
Zach Lowe
I was with you guys after the Eastern Conference finals, you and Ryan. I. I just feel like if there's one guy that defines the team, I don't really care that another guy average like 3 more points per game than him during the series. Like Halliburton should have been.
- [83:11]
Bill Simmons
This was Maxwell's finals mvp. Was like this too. Like, it's. If you're going to start measuring the stats and the stats are slightly better, I still want to default to. You're by far the best player in the team and the other team is planning against you should matter.
- [83:25]
Zach Lowe
Well, it also, the whole style of play is because of you.
- [83:29]
Bill Simmons
Right.
- [83:29]
Zach Lowe
All of it. Like most of it emanates. It all starts with.
- [83:32]
Bill Simmons
He just doesn't get the credit for it like Nash did and Chris Paul did. I think we understood that with those guys.
- [83:38]
Zach Lowe
I mean, all of us tomorrow is going to be. Is he a superstar? That's what the. That's what the.
- [83:42]
Bill Simmons
Listen, people should go to one of the games and watch how good Lou Dort is. I. I just. I can't say it enough times. I've. You can't go buy him and he's too fucking strong. And he's allowed to. He's figured out all of the lines he can get away with. With the physicality. And you can't go buy him. And he can guard everybody in the league and he's the best defensive player in the league.
- [84:06]
Zach Lowe
It's.
- [84:07]
Bill Simmons
And Caruso might be in the top five and Jalen Williams might be in like the top ten.
- [84:10]
Zach Lowe
It's. It's actually. Yeah. They have a whole like a bunch of guys who could have made all defense teams that were not eligible.
- [84:16]
Bill Simmons
Jalen can guard everyone on the Pacers.
- [84:18]
Zach Lowe
I'm talking about, like, Caruso, Hardenstein, Holmgren. None of them were eligible for all defense. Defense. They still had two guys on the all defense teams.
- [84:25]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [84:25]
Zach Lowe
Dort should not be possible. Like, you should not be able to be that big and able to guard a quick twitch guy like Halliburton. Like, those two things should be incongruent. You should.
- [84:34]
Bill Simmons
He's one of those guys. He's actually kind of stunning in person. How big he is?
- [84:39]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, he's huge.
- [84:40]
Bill Simmons
He looks like. Like, if you just saw him walk, like, if he was at the gym wearing workout clothes and he walked in, you wouldn't know what sport he played. You. You'd believe he could be a tight end in football, whatever.
- [84:54]
Zach Lowe
In basketball, if you were a bouncer outside of a bar.
- [84:56]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, he could be anything.
- [84:57]
Zach Lowe
You would be like, this must be a pretty rough bar if they have this guy as the bouncer.
- [85:01]
Bill Simmons
Right?
- [85:02]
Zach Lowe
Just he walks out from.
- [85:03]
Bill Simmons
He could be the bad guy in an action movie. Like, he's just got a presence to him and. And I felt like he really wanted to fuck with Halberton tonight. Like, he was going out of his way to mess with them. It was interesting. Hal Burton was so rattled by the calls. He didn't get that. When he finally got a call, he was holding his hand. Is. Did you see that? He was holding his hands up. Like, I got a call. I can't believe it. Then he made a free throw. It's like, I made one. And he's. He's just completely lost his confidence for drawing and. Whereas Shay is always going to be able to get his.
- [85:34]
Zach Lowe
All right, I think that's it. I think we covered everything.
- [85:36]
Bill Simmons
We did. I had a great time, even though I'm. I had a really important milkshake at halftime. They have a great shake place in Indiana, and it was basically like doing cocaine and really carried me through the second.
- [85:49]
Zach Lowe
I get stressed so much. I get stressed with halftime runs, whether it's bathroom runs, snack runs.
- [85:54]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [85:54]
Zach Lowe
And I'd be like, I can't miss a position. I don't want to get back there. And I missed the first three positions.
- [85:58]
Bill Simmons
Specialized food stops. And one of them was this shake place.
- [86:02]
Zach Lowe
Okay. Vanilla chocolate.
- [86:04]
Bill Simmons
I had an Oreo shake. They had like six shakes. It's like a pretty famous Pacers thing. So I had to try it. And I was like, I'm just gonna drink, like one third of it. I was, like, mauling it. I had like four fifths of it. So that really helped me shout out to the second half. Because it was a tense game.
- [86:21]
Zach Lowe
That's it for the Zach Lowe Show. Thank you to Bill Simmons. Thank you to Jesse and Jonathan on production. And I will be back. I'm not sure when I will be back. My show is supposed to be on Monday, but the next game is on Monday night. So I'm not sure.
- [86:34]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, we'll figure it out.
- [86:35]
Zach Lowe
We're going to figure something out. But thanks to everyone for listening. And two, two, baby. What else could you ask for? Three games left, max, in the season for the NBA championship.
- [86:45]
Bill Simmons
Phenomenal finals.
- [86:46]
Zach Lowe
Phenomenal finals.
- [86:46]
Bill Simmons
I'd give it either an A or an A plus.
- [86:48]
Zach Lowe
Yeah.
- [86:48]
Bill Simmons
Great stuff. It's for the real Hoopers, for the real hoop fans.
- [86:51]
Zach Lowe
There you go. Bill Simmons, everybody. Thank you, sir.
- [86:53]
Bill Simmons
Thank you.
- [86:55]
Zach Lowe
Must be 21 and over and present in select states. For Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over and President D.C. gambling problem. Called 1-800- gambler or visit FanDuel.com RG call 1-887-89-7777 or is it ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or is it mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland? Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 Sport in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-H O P E N Y or text Hope NY in New York.