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- [00:01]
A
This episode is brought to you by Lifelock. It's Cybersecurity awareness month and LifeLock has tips to protect your identity Use strong passwords, set up multi factor authentication, report phishing and update the software on your devices. And for comprehensive identity protection, let Lifelock alert you to suspicious uses of your personal information. Lifelock also fixes identity theft, guaranteed or your money back. Stay smart, safe and protected with a 30 day free trial at lifelock.com podcast.
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B
Terms apply coming up on the Zach Low Show Happy Monday everyone. Preseason games are happening. You all dialed in, you sickos. It's time for one of my favorite episodes of the year. It's been an annual one I've been doing since basically this podcast existed in its prior form that shall not be named my 5 most confusing teams of the Year. Confusing? What does it mean? It could mean one of two things. This is the criteria. I'm the dictator. I define it. Confusing could mean high level of variance in a team's win total. Are they going to be much better than expected? Much worse than expected? Uncertainty there? Or just like what? What is this going to look like on the floor? How is this all going to fit together? I'm very confused by that. We got John Hollinger, the greatest ever do it, filling in the old Kevin Arnovich role. Remember Kevin on the five Most Confusing Teams podcast? We're going to hit lots of teams. I don't know his teams. I didn't tell him my teams. I bet we have some overlap. I've got three east teams, two west teams. We're going to talk about that hit some of the news of the weekend all coming up after this on the Zach Lowe Show. You're listening to the Zach Lowe show, presented by FanDuel. This NBA season put the power of the sportsbook in your hands with fanduels. Your way you, way lets you create bets you can't find anywhere else. You can set your own lines or customize player props and you'll get new odds instantly. Plus, with youh Way, you can even make head to head bets by position or or player. Just download the FanDuel sportsbook app to play your way. The ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Must be 21 or over in President select states and 18 or over in DC, Kentucky and Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com Call 1-88-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut. Welcome to the Zach Lowe Show. It's time for one of my favorite episodes of every year. I've been doing this since the previous incarnation of this podcast started. It was called the Low Post. I think something like that. My five most confusing teams of the year. And I have a new tag team partner for this. He is the greatest to ever do it. From the Athletic Mr. John Hollinger. How are you?
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A
You're too kind. Thank you for having me on the show.
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B
Go Brew Crew. I see the hat. I respect the hat. I was actually asked before this podcast by my producer, Jesse, who's a Dodgers fan, have I jumped on the Dodgers bandwagon? I said, absolutely not. My. My order of operations is this. Number one, Yankees don't win. Number two, two of my best friends from college. Shout out. Lucas and Nate are Mariners fans. They have never won, so they're. They have to go ahead of the bre. The brewers, who have also never won. And like, what's not to like about the Brewers? Midwest, Milwaukee, cool city, loyal fans. The guy slides down the slide. So you're third on my list.
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A
Okay, well, I'm, I'm hoping for Brewers, Mariners have some Northwest friends. I'm probably going to go out there for one of those games if they. If that happens. So we'll see. You know, they haven't been back since I was. I mean, they haven't been in the series since I was 12, so exciting times.
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B
Okay, five most confusing teams. This dates back to the great Kevin Arnovitz. He was the original attack team partner with me for this shout out. Kevin, my criteria, as I told you, is for me at least the confusion stems from one of two places or both. Number one. This team, in my opinion, could be, like, way better than expected or way worse than expected. Some win total variants, like, we know who the great teams are going to be, we know who some of the bad teams are going to be. Even the average teams. I feel pretty confident, like, well, that team could win 43, 39. That's not that exciting. I want variance. Or I just want, like, wait, what? Like, who's on this team? How is this going to work? Like, what happened here? What's.
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A
What's going on?
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B
Like, how is this actually going to look when the basketball games start? So we each picked five. We didn't tell each other who we picked. I'm going to. I'm going to set the over under on how many teams we both picked at Two and a half. And I'm going to take the under. I'm going to guess we have two of the same teams. And I am going, I have three east teams and two west teams. What's your contract?
- [04:49]
A
Okay, I'm three East, two West. I think, I think there is one team that we will definitely have the same. And then I'm curious what your other four are.
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B
I am going to let you go first because I am generous in, in whichever order you want. Your first most confusing team that you would like to discuss. John Hollinger.
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A
The obvious lowest hanging piece of fruit possible. The Philadelphia 76ers who will win anywhere between 13 and 60 games this season.
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B
I did not pick them among my five. So we're over one. You know why? Because I just feel like I have nothing to say. I, I, it's, they're just team if we all know the ifs I have already. I'm just, I'm out like on the, oh, if it all comes together, they could win the east and make the finals. Like I'm out on that. But I want you to make the case for confusion.
- [05:42]
A
You're just tired of them.
- [05:44]
B
Like, I mean like I just, I said, I told this story last week on the pod. I was out to lunch with some NBA people and one of them was like starting the, like, I don't know guys, like if, blah blah, blah. And his case started with if Joel Embiid plays 60 games this year. And I was like, I'm just gonna stop you right there. No, just no, but you go ahead.
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A
I'm interested actually. Because without Embiid last year they were just atrociously terrible in any non impede minutes. And I don't think they have to be like, I think they could be decent enough in the games. Joel isn't playing. Part of that depends on Paul George being healthy, which it seems like he's probably not. But some of that is like Grimes was really good at the end of last year. VJ Edgecomb is. I, I was really high on him coming out of the draft. We'll see how, how quickly he can scale up to being an efficient guard. But he gives them an athleticism, especially combined with Maxi that was just missing for so much of last year. McCain, once he's on the court, I mean he had a little setback in preseason, but he's going to be out there. I, I think their second line guys are going to be a lot better than all the old dudes they were trotting out last year. I Think Trenton Watford can help them. So, like, I'm, I'm kind of interested about what's there, even aside from the embiid stuff. I think Janai Broom, second round pick, I think he might actually be a player. So I'm just kind of interested there.
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B
I like Justin Edwards too. I think he has a chance to be a decent rotation player. To your point about just like the depth, like, does. Does Bona get the drum in minutes or do we have to suffer through more drum in minutes? I see, I see. Which Edgecomb looks awesome in preseason. Kelly Uber is still here. Played really hard last year. And I mean that sincerely. Like, I love. He was like the most joyful part of the team other than Maxine and maybe late season Grimes last year. Look, I guess, I guess they're just not on here because I'm. I'm doing over unders with Bill next week, so I don't want to do over unders too detailed here. They're at 42 and a half. No idea what to do with that. You could tell me they go over that and have a nice year and like win 49 games. I'd be like, yeah, it's probably like Joel probably played 55 games. Everyone was more or less healthy. No one's healthy now. Like, like none of the key guys are playing currently other than Maxi. I just, I guess my. There's this latent hope that, yeah, you know, the east is bad. Joel, like healthy. Joel was the best player in the conference or at worst, neck and neck with Giannis and he was an mvp and like Maxi's a rising star and I wholeheartedly believe in Tyrese Maxey, future all NBA player. You know, maybe it all comes together and Boston's out and Indiana's out and, you know, Cleveland. Is anyone scared of them? And the Knicks, you know, they got to. I just, I just can't get there. And so my interest level in the team. Can you get there? Are you saying you could get there? Like you haven't given up on a team that hasn't even made the conference finals in. Joel Embiid's career could somehow make the finals. Are you holding out hope?
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A
I'm holding out like the tiniest sliver of possibility. I think the stronger sliver of possibility is like they win 50 and lose in the second round, which still would. I mean, after last year. That would qualify as a really good year, wouldn't it?
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B
But jobs, jobs would be saved for sure.
- [09:06]
A
For sure. And yeah, there are some hot seats there. I mean, things get interesting definitely on that front too. The. But there, I mean, there's just so much variance around this team on high and low end.
- [09:19]
B
And they're also, I mean an important thing here and for the over unders next week is incentives. Right. And this team is, is pretty heavily incentivized to go for as many wins as possible for a lot of different reasons unless they try to do what they did last year at the end with the pig day Oklahoma City. But it's even more heavily protected this year.
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A
You got to luck into it this year because it's only top four protected. So things would have to be so off the rails for that to come into play for them to be, for them to be like, okay, we got it, we got it. We gotta. We're in a fight here with Washington and Utah. Let's go.
- [09:54]
B
You know, what was your take on, on the Grimes qualifying offer and their offer to him being like 4 years 40. Obviously they have tax issues that may be ultimately what motivated them to just lowball Quentin Grimes. But that offer to me is, is like a non offer, like no chance he's ever going to take that. And you're signaling like we either don't care if he's on our team long term or we think we can resign him in the off season. But how'd you think, what did you think of that whole ordeal?
- [10:22]
A
It's. It sure seemed to me like the first apron was a big factor in that for, for whatever reason because at 10 million is the exact number that keeps you under that you're like, you're like a dollar and 43 cents under if you pay Grimes 10 million. So. And then there's the tax issue too, obviously where it, if he's in that level of salary, you're one trade away from getting under. If you trade u at. At the deadline and anything above that, things get much more complicated. So I, I sort of, I sort of get. I mean, this is a franchise. Daryl Mory in particular is, I'd say of, of the league's GMs, he's probably the most comfortable with being uncomfortable. Right. Like we saw it with the Ben Simmons thing, we saw it with the Harden thing. Whereas a lot of teams get kind of nervous and, and try to bottle things up and just get things to the finish line. I think, I think they're okay playing things out for as long as they need to play out. And the Grime situation is a perfect example. Yeah, they, they'll still have Bird rights on them next summer. They could do A sign and trade. They've lost their flexibility to move him in season this year, most likely, but that gives them some additional flexibility and options going forward. And maybe they just didn't want to lock in anything until they see what they have with Embiid and Paul George this year, which would be an understandable position.
- [11:46]
B
Yeah, totally understandable. And if Grimes was and his agent were not going to budge from 25 to 30 a year, then, like, fine, then there's just no room for negotiation. I think Grimes is good. I think there'd be value in having him on the team, this team or any other team long term. But if the finances were what they were, fine. I don't want to hear about trading Kelly Uber. I know the tax and I know that Daryl More is comfortable being uncomfortable. Like, that would be his WWE catchphrase and T shirt if he were a wrestler. Like, just comfortable being uncomfortable. But. And if. Because if you're not a superstar, he just doesn't really care about, like, if you're pissed off at the team or whatever. Like, everything can be rectified. So I get all that. But Kelly Oubre, man, in that. On that team last year where everything went wrong and everybody was sulking, that dude just like balls to the wall every minute he was on the floor. Like, I really enjoyed watching him last year.
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A
I'm a little nervous that he's their quote, unquote power forward right now on the depth chart. Like, they have no fours other than.
- [12:46]
B
Watford and maybe Jabari Walker if he. If he makes the real roster. Okay, I'm going to let you pick again because you just, you came out hot. And so I'm going to give you the second pick in the confusing draft.
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A
Second pick in the confusing draft is San Antonio.
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B
They're not on my list either. And not because I'm not confused by them, but because I want to devote a whole, like, separate segment at some point to them. And so we are now 0 for 2. So I'm going to take the third pick next. But make the case for San Antonio. And would they have been on your list already if even before the Fox hamstring maybe not going to be ready for opening night thing?
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A
Oh, hell yeah. Yeah.
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B
Okay.
- [13:32]
A
Actually, because the Fox part is the most confusing part of it. If you go back to last year and the trade for him where like, okay, we made this big splash trade for Fox, and then you watch the first several games before Fox went out and it's like, wow, he sure is jogging to the corner a lot. Like, why did you trade for this guy? Again, the inability to incorporate him was, was kind of shocking. And they still, I feel like as awesome as Victor is, like no player in the league makes you just cackle in the middle of watching a game. Like, like Victor does. Right. But in the midst of all that, it still feels like they're not really maximizing him. There's a lot of kind of wishy washy jumpers thrown in. You know, can we, can we, can we get this giant guy at the rim a little more? The thing working out, the whole thing with the guards with Fox and Harper and Castle is going to be really interesting. The roster still feels like kind of a mishmash. There's not a lot of shooting. You know, Keldon Johnson is kind of an on ball scorer too. Like, where does he fit in with all these guys? There's this whole thing of like, what are they? Right? Like Sohan, what's their plan with Sohan? Is he in the last year of his deal? So, and then that gets right down to Mitch. Like, is Mitch Johnson the guy. I think you talk to people in the league, they weren't like blown away by his playbook last year. Now was he handcuffed because he was trying to do Popovich's stuff? Are we going to see more of like the real Mitch Johnson this year? Like, who knows? So I, I, there's just, there's just a lot of questions, a lot of wonder. For me, they, the high side, they could end up being really good, right? Or they could miss the playoffs.
- [15:21]
B
Yeah. My initial take on them in the summer, in July, after all the action was over, was a, they're going to extend Fox at the max and I'm fine with that. I'm pro that I'm fine with it. I get it. I'm not as concerned as a lot of people are. I'm bullish on the Fox Wemby partnership. Five games total last year they played together and I said whatever the over under is, I'm taking the over. I think this team is much closer to the like Clippers, Lakers, warriors sort of tier of fighting for the 6 5th seeds in the west than they are to like 9, 10 play in tournament. My optimism has been a little tempered because I think I underestimated the shooting issues around Wembanyama that they're going to have. Vassell, who I've always been high on the impact has just never quite matched the look of his game as a shooter and a scorer. Part of that is defense and their depth like you said like I, you know, they got, they're loaded at center. That's great when their best player is also a center. A lot of their depth pieces like Heldon, Johnson and Zohan are negative to neutral at best shooters. Carter, Bryant, is he ready to do anything offensively? Like anything. I love him long term, so their depth worries me a little bit. I just still err on the side of like when Benyama is so goddamn good and he's going to make them elite by himself on one end of the floor that I think I'm just still going to lean like 47ish. Optimistic with them. I don't know that I'm as exuberant as like if everything hits, they could be 50 something, but I'm still optimistic. But I, I see the warts now. I, and I see like the lack of the shaky three point shooting to me is the biggest one.
- [17:11]
A
I mean I'm, I'm about in the same ballpark as their overall win total. But I, I still don't really know what this looks like when the actual games start though. And I just, I'm just a little nervous that it's just gonna look, look like a mess and it. That the west is so unforgiving. Like you can't, you can't just fake your way to 41 wins in that conference.
- [17:33]
B
No. And look, and they are, they are well positioned to make a big trade at some point. That's always easier to do in the off season than it is in the season. And, and not only to make the trade, but to have the trade like really spark your team to go up a level. But they do have, they do have the goods. All right, I'm going to take a pick.
- [17:50]
A
Okay.
- [17:51]
B
Do you want me to go super obvious or do you want me to go like splashy? You, you just, you decide the genre.
- [17:59]
A
All right, let's go splashy.
- [18:02]
B
The Boston Celtics are, are one of my five most confusing teams. Did you have them or no?
- [18:07]
A
I did not. I do not feel that confused by them.
- [18:11]
B
Okay. Are you, are you just confident they're going to be aggressively mediocre?
- [18:16]
A
Yeah, 100%. Like they're, they're, they're going to trade Simons for somebody who makes less or they'll trade Hauser like one or the other to get themselves out of the tax entirely and just spend the rest of the year positioning themselves for next year. Right. They have three good perimeter guys who will, who will make them respectable and their front court will be embarrassing. And that's kind of where they'll, where they'll end up. And maybe that gets you to the play in and maybe it doesn't.
- [18:42]
B
I guess my, my confusion is only stylistically I have some confusion. Like I call the Celtics team extreme because they are just so at the extremes in so many ways. Like they never get to the rim, they never get to the free throw line. They take a million three pointers on defense. They never let their opponents get to the free throw line. They never let their opponents get to the rim. By the way, can that be sustained without your entire big man rotation from, from last year, including your best rim protector in Porzingis when he was available? And Horford, still quite good. Derrick White, also a great rim protector. They were like extraordinarily slow and low turnovers. Like how do they. And I do feel like they got kind of stuck in a rut offensively, as great as their offense was. And like how do they use this year? Everyone's assuming, oh well, they'll just Missoula ball. And I love that Missoula hates the label Missoula ball. I enjoyed that over the weekend. Will they just math ball their way to more wins than expected? I'm more like, can we use this year to get away from like the nine million threes and try to re reintroduce ourselves to the basket, the orange thing where it's good to get closer to it and put the ball into it and maybe get fouled a little bit. So I'm interested in how they play and I guess my curiosity is, to me, there's like some lingering like Celtics optimism, like the sheen of the last 10 years of being contender every year they play smart. They have White, they have Pritchard, they have Brown and I. And like there, there seems to just be optimism that when I look at the team, I'm like, I just think it's unreasonable. Their depth is completely unproven. Their big man rotation. Like, I think they're going to start hauser at the 4, jalen at the 4, picket and keda at the 5. But you know, and then it's like Boucher, Garza, they can play those guys with Keda a little bit. Shireman's going to play, Minot's going to play. Simons, I think will come off the bench. And I agree he's a trade candidate. Like a tax ducking or cutting move is very likely. I guess what I'm saying is like, I think they're going to be worse than people expect because of that sheen of like the Celtics, they just win a lot of games. Like, I just don't see it. And I'm also interested in, like, how they play without Tatum, without all.
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A
What is. What does Jalen Brown look like as a leading man? Like, is this going to be like 10 for 31 every night? No. Or is he still going to be able to generate maybe 12 efficiency?
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B
Maybe 12 for 31.
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A
Okay.
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B
Again, I want the assists to tick up. Like, I'm interested in that. That. I guess that's what I'm saying. Like, everyone, like, people think of this year's Celtics as Jalen Brown taking a million shots and the team taking a million threes. I would like to see them try to experiment a little bit more, use this year as an opportunity to play a little differently or just sort of lean into different parts of their game. I just don't get the optimism. I don't see it. I don't see them. Like, people are like, I don't know, succeed. Like, they'll just Celtics their way into getting out of play. And I'm like, okay, like, over who? Milwaukee, Detroit, Atlanta, Cleveland, New York? Like, I don't. I don't see it.
- [21:54]
A
No, I'm. I'm on the underside on these guys.
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B
I'm trying to think if there's any other Celtic stuff I wanted to hit. No, I just. The interior defense, I don't know. I don't know how they do it. Okay.
- [22:05]
A
Free Josh. Mine.
- [22:06]
B
It. Yeah. I mean, he's got stuff. Like, he's got stuff to his game. Okay. I'm going to pick what I thought was the most obvious team.
- [22:17]
A
Okay.
- [22:18]
B
And I can't believe that they haven't come up yet. And I'm a little bit worried. You didn't even have them on your team.
- [22:23]
A
Okay.
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B
The most confusing mishmash in the entire NBA, possibly your 20, 25, 2026 Toronto Raptors.
- [22:33]
A
Yes, they were on my list.
- [22:34]
B
All right, we have now have one overlap. They're over. Under as of today is 39 and a half, which in the east is like, that's a vote of no confidence in you if you're over the tax. Over the tax. Okay. And you have this starting lineup of Ingram, Barnes, Barrett, Purdle, quickly, all big money players. Pearl got a big money extension that I didn't really understand in the off season. Quickly makes $32 million in perpetuity, seemingly. And Vegas is like, that's cool. 39 and a half. Meet the Pacers without, like, half their team from last year. My confusion is. Is twofold. Can they actually be better than that and markedly so based on their just sheer talent. Like Scotty Barnes makes a leap. I'm still a believer that he's going to make an all NBA team at some point in the next two or three years. The Ingram thing works better than expected. One of the shooting guards, who's going to come off the bench, Dick, Walter, Baji, whoever makes a little bit of a leap. CMB fits in really well. Maybe they even play some small ball. 5. Some five out lineups without Purdle on the floor. Like you could talk me into like, oh my God, are the Raptors going to win 46 games? I don't see. I don't see a floor much lower than this line. 39 and a half. Like it would surprise me if they were much worse than that. And then my confusion is like, how in the hell is this going to work with all of these dudes on the floor? You look at their core lineups from last year and I realized no. Ingram quickly in Barnes -16 in 747 minutes, bad offense quickly. Barnes purdle about net even in 325 minutes, bad offense. The big four together quickly. Barrett, Barnes, Poeltl. Played in nine total games. 140 minutes minus 29, bad offense. How? They were 26 in offense, 15th in defense. They had the number one defense in the NBA after March 1st. Is that anything like real what happened there? Is that. Is any of that sustainable? So is the defense like a legit top 10 defense? And is there any hope like how is this offense going to get out of the mud? Those are my sources of confusion. Take it away.
- [24:54]
A
So you left out the biggest source of confusion, which is just what the hell are these guys even doing? But beyond that. So you have a talented starting five, right? That does not appear to fit together all that well. Barnes and Ingram both really want to be on the ball. Not really. I mean, could Ingram, if you can convince him that threes are worth more than twos and he should shoot a few off the catch, I think could be a more potent floor spacer than he's been in New Orleans. The bench does not appear to be very good. Ingram gets hurt every single year. So you're already cutting into your depth that way. The other interesting thing here is can they trade RJ Barrett for somebody who fits better? They. I mean they have picks if they want to go that direction. Because that, that is the one thing I think that could raise the level of that of that starting five is if. Is if Barrett was Changed into somebody else. Like ideally, I guess you'd want it to be like your long term vision for Jacobe Walter where he's this three and D guy who's, you know, adds value on both ends of the floor. Like if you could have Jacobe Walter be a, a starting level player and then Bar Barrett is your sixth man, then you're. I. You start feeling pretty good about this team. Right. I also have a soft spot for Sandro Mamukalashvili. I think that pickup may pay dividends for them. But I mean the rest of this like bench and rosters really kind of blah. So it's tough to get too inspired there. Do they have like Barnes, I agree with you on his long term potential. Is he a top 15 player in the league this year?
- [26:40]
B
No, no, I'm going now on that.
- [26:44]
A
You know, they kind of, they've kind of bid against themselves on a lot of these contracts and now they're as you say, they're right at the tax. They'll probably get under by cutting somebody before opening day. But still, like you're, you're right at that line and you're just a blah team and that like you might make the playoffs because you're in the east, but are you an actual playoff team? Like, I, I have a hard time getting there. I'm just generally confused by that. I mean, I do want to see what this looks like on the court. They actually come to Atlanta for the first game of the season, so I will see them early. But yeah, I just don't know what to make of them.
- [27:21]
B
You think the Hawks are going to win like 65 games? Which is like 60 games. What's, what's the safe?
- [27:28]
A
Come on, 64. No, no, no, no. I think more like high 40s. Maybe they get to 50. That's probably like ballpark.
- [27:40]
B
They're not on my five most confusing teams because I'm not confused. I'm optimistic and just smiling. Okay, Raptors, I'm going to make the case. The optimistic case just for this team did the case would be the defense is real ish and they're like the 9th or 10th best defense in the league. And I do think the model for this team is size, pressure, frenzy and run. We've got to run on offense to mitigate the clunkiness, the spacing issues. And if you look at their surge to the top of the league, a lot of fake stuff happens in March and April. Right. And they had the number one defense after March 1st. Some of it was their strengths kind of became stronger. Like they force a lot of turnovers. That's by design. And they forced even more in that stretch. Teams shot all year bizarrely badly on threes and long twos. Some of that was surely luck. Like I don't think the Raptors genius to their way into some sort of Jedi mind trick defense that was actually sustainable. But length and frenzy, we have seen it with Nick Nurse. Teams can do some damage to opposing jump shooters. That got stingier as that those numbers got lower as the season went on. Their rebounding got a little better. So if you think if you just sort of take like there's a decent infrastructure here, maybe they got a little lucky. That nets out is like this could be the 9th or 10th best defense in the NBA. Then the case on offense would be somehow in Darko Rakovic's system of, you know, we want to use both sides of the court. We do a pick and roll with Purdle on one side, swing it handoff on the other side. With Barnes and Quickley working together, we vary up the, the combat, the two man combinations, use Quickley as a screener. All that trickery, we get up to like 17th in offense. Like I just don't see a way that this is a good offensive team. Can they sniff average with just a little bit of system, a little bit of shot making? Better transition play. They were like horrendously inefficient in transition last year and staggering the minutes dramatically so that two of those four perimeter starters are on the floor at the same time and we separate the overlapping skills as much as possible. Yeah, someone pops off the bench. You mentioned Barrett. This, this is the logical move is hope that one of those shooting guards pops enough that you can put him in the starting five and Barrett comes off the bench. I don't see it. His dad is the freaking head of Canada basketball. He's Canadian. He makes a lot of money. To me it's like he's a more likely trade candidate than six man candidate. But I think you just have to like, you got to do one of the like pull, pull two starters four minutes into the game, bring them back four minutes later kind of thing. That's my. If you net out at 17th, offense up from 26, 10th defense up from 15th, that's probably what, 44 wins. That's like a potential 6, 7, 8 team. That's. I guess that's not much confusing. Like that's not a great like grand slam of a season. I'm just more like, how, how is it going to work with these four dudes on the floor. Can they make decisions quickly enough? Can they move the ball quickly enough? No pun intended.
- [30:53]
A
Yeah. Your defensive case is interesting because Murray Boyles can really guard like that. That's. That's the one thing I with him I totally believe in. He's just 6, 7 and played center in college and needs to move out to the perimeter, so. Interesting player for sure, though.
- [31:11]
B
Okay, so we've. We've done four. We've only overlapped on one. You picked the fifth one.
- [31:17]
A
Houston Rockets.
- [31:19]
B
Not on my list. Not even. I have my list over here. I have my backup papers over here. For teams I think you would pick. Houston's not even in my backup paper, so I'm just letting you take it. Go ahead.
- [31:31]
A
Does it not trouble you that like 11 of the 15 roster spots are for fours and fives?
- [31:37]
B
Well, we were going to get to another team like that on my list, but I mean, do you. Are you. Who's not. Are you counting Amen Thompson and Tari Eason and all these tweener guys as fours.
- [31:47]
A
Finnie Smith, Green. Best position is a four. AOGI plays best as a four. Tate plays best as a four. Jeff Green like four or a small ball five like it's. And other than Holiday and Shepherd and Van Vliet, who's hurt like they have, they have 11 guys who are. Whose best position is either four or five.
- [32:09]
B
Okay, I'm gonna make the counter argument why I'm not so bothered by that.
- [32:13]
A
Okay.
- [32:15]
B
Thompson and Eason, and probably Smith too, can guard all over the floor. So defensively I don't pigeonhole them into a position. And in fact, I think a couple of them, particularly Thompson, are more likely to guard perimeter guys and guard them at a defensive player of the year level than they are to guard fours. I believe in Smith's shooting enough to be a spot up threat, so I don't really care what position he holds on offense. Durant obviously goes without saying he can do anything.
- [32:45]
A
Does it not concern you that Smith can't dribble at all?
- [32:48]
B
It's concerning. It's. As a Jabari Smith Jr. Backer and just general fan. I would like to see him get picked a little bit less. I would like to see him attack a little bit more decisively. I watched a lot of film on him over the summer. You see glimpses, right? You see like, okay, can you just do that? Like just catch, go two dribbles either at the rim or kick it. You see it like I'm. I have no illusions that he's going to all of a sudden be running 20, pick and rolls a game, but just do that, bottle that, and that's enough for me. They, they certainly lean big and look, I've already said like the Van Vliet thing, injury, I've heard it over and over again described as a blessing in disguise because they're going to learn about Thompson and Reed Shepherd. I get the emotion and impulse behind that. I just simply don't buy it at all. Because this team viewed itself as a championship contender. I think they had some championship equity, like a little bit at least, and now I don't think they have any.
- [33:48]
A
I agree with that.
- [33:49]
B
When you take that drop, I just don't buy the blessing in disguise stuff. But you, you're, you are, you're raising some alarm bells here. I like it because you do raise. Like, what if Reed Shepherd's just not ready? You know, like, that's a possibility too, right?
- [34:04]
A
Yeah. And I think the way they're set up, like, he has to play, like, they, shepherd and Holiday may both have to play the, the way they're, the way they're set up. Now I'm really worried about, even with trading for Kevin Durant, if there's enough shooting. Like you talk about leaning into Shengoon, Adams lineups or playing two bigs with maybe Shangoon and Capella, which, I mean is, I guess is the reason they signed him. I'm still a little confused by that. But to do that now you're asking what, Smith is going to play three and Durant's going to play two or it's going to be Eason and Thompson in the backcourt. Like, even with Kevin Durant, I'm really worried about the spacing. They didn't have much last year, and that was with Van Vliet bombing away their other. Their three most prolific three point shooters last year were who? Dylan Brooks, Jalen Green and Fred Van Vliet. They don't have any of them this year. Yeah, they have Kevin Durant, but they don't, they don't have any of the other guys. Like, I, I, the spacing stuff I think is, is really troubling. I, you know, like, Finney Smith is a good player. Like, okay, great, but like once you had Durant and Shingoon, your two best positions were 4 and 5. So to go back in and use all your capital on 50, Smith and Capella after that and resigning Adams with Bird rights, like, I, I just thought they left themselves really short in the bet in the Wings and backcourt. Even with VanVleet, they were. That's how it was going to look.
- [35:37]
B
I really, I love this because it's a great pick. I, I, I didn't even think about them because I just think their defense is going to be so good and their effort level is going to be so good and their size and rebounding are going to be so relentlessly annoying to play against that. Their regular season floor, even without Fred Van Vliet, is still pretty high. They're over under is 52 and a half. That's high. That's high.
- [36:04]
A
Generous. Yeah.
- [36:05]
B
But the Van Vliet thing we talked about. Finney Smith may not be ready to start. Is not going to be ready to start the season. I don't think with, with whatever issue he's got. I can't remember. Eason's health has been up and down and so now you're one injury away from. All of a sudden, you're really thin. I am a little worried they're going to overtax Durant in the first 30 games of the season as they try to sort of, I mean, they're all, they're going to try to win as many games as possible and they're low on shot creation. It just sort of naturally lends you to. Is Durant gonna have to do too much? Certainly more than he or the brain trust might have expected him to have to do. I think Shen Goon is awesome. That's another reason why I didn't consider them for this. I think he's a big reason. Their floor is pretty high, but I think you're raising pretty valid questions about their ceiling. And is it, is it, is the residual optimism sort of clouding our collective judgment about the team? I think these are fair questions that I'm. You have changed in five minutes. My perception of the team.
- [37:02]
A
A little bit.
- [37:03]
B
A little bit.
- [37:03]
A
Okay.
- [37:04]
B
Like, I still think they're going to be steady and annoying and win a lot of games and be a top six team. But I think you raised valid concerns. And by the way, it's not hard to fall out of the top six in the West. Like, they're already out of the top three where I had them penciled in because of Van Vleet.
- [37:19]
A
Yeah.
- [37:19]
B
And it's not like a steep drop to seven from there.
- [37:24]
A
All right.
- [37:26]
B
I'm going to pick the next team.
- [37:28]
A
All right.
- [37:31]
B
Dallas Mavericks.
- [37:34]
A
Yeah, I, they, they were one of the last ones that I eliminated. This is another weird team that leaned into being too big. Right. I mean, Cooper Flag is going to be their shooting guard, I guess.
- [37:50]
B
Well, at. Maybe at points if. If they play the Washington Flag Davis center foursome. My guess is they're going to start both Russell and Clay to sort of just try to get shooting and playmaking onto the floor at the start of.
- [38:05]
A
Games to try to get Toast on the floor. Is that why.
- [38:09]
B
Come on, don't do that. I don't know, man. There's, there's, there's. They're projected right smack in the middle of 500. Like, that's their over, under. Yeah, they're a weird team. Like, no doubt AD Is now going to be a four for at least half his minutes in the regular season, maybe more. I mean, they're designed for him to almost never play the five. They have two centers who they have invested heavily in.
- [38:34]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [38:35]
B
Plus union, plus league and union favorite Dwight Powell is the third. He's still there. Dwight Powell is like. He's like currently current college player Alex Caraban and my childhood college player Chris. Chris Corciani at NC State, where it's like, have they been in college for eight years? Like, how are they still there?
- [38:55]
A
Still there, yeah.
- [38:56]
B
Does he have a job? Like, is he working, like insurance on the side? That's what Dwight Powell is on the Mavericks. Shout out. Chris Corciani, who just fired. It felt like he just kept playing college basketball. Like, is it. How is this possible? And so they're just a strange team. They're talking about using AD as a passing hub, which I actually think is smart. I think he's an underrated passer. I think it's one of the skills that his teams have not tapped into. And that's how they're. If you're going to play big, you're going to have to use sort of every inch of the court. You're going to have to be pretty dynamic on both sides of the court. Use both your bigs and dynamic ways at the elbows. I think their size is going to be troubling on both ends of the floor for opponents. Like, it's going to be hard to score on them at the rim. I love Flag. Couldn't be higher on Flag. He's gonna have to do a lot of ball handling for them until Kyrie comes back.
- [39:49]
A
Yeah, I might not be till next year.
- [39:52]
B
I think he's coming back this year. I think he's coming now.
- [39:55]
A
That.
- [39:55]
B
Is that January? Is that March? I don't know. And if. If it's March and they're just out of it, do they. Do they Just bag it. I'm gonna, I'm gonna predict he comes back and he obviously is. The difference between this team is confusing and somewhat interesting and this team is confusing and like, oh, oh, could they be a little, like, dangerous? There's just something about this mix that I kind of like. I like the size, I like the tenacity. I like that one of their big guys, a Cooper Flag can, can handle and play point forward a decent amount at least. Although I do think their teams are going to switch a lot between flag and Davis and be like, all right, try to bully this little guy or try to. Can you take our big guy off the bounce, Cooper? Let's, let's see it because we're going to play off you let you shoot threes.
- [40:42]
A
Yeah.
- [40:42]
B
I don't know. I like the depth. Like you're bringing Naji Marshall off the bench, P.J. washington off the bench, Gafford off the bench. You know, I like Lil Brandon Williams. Like, there are guys on this. I, I don't know. There's something about them that I like, but I also am like, I don't know how the hell this is going to look. You seem like Max Christie is a decent bench player. It's decent. You can play 15 incredible minutes as a 3 and D guy.
- [41:05]
A
Yeah, you got Caleb Martin still there too.
- [41:07]
B
Caleb Martin.
- [41:08]
A
I just so they're so bought into the fiction that Davis is a four. And the thing that breaks that down is he's just not that threatening a shooter and people just aren't worried about him from there. And that's why, like, if, if Derek Lively is, is the rim runner or Gafford is the rim runner, like, they're just not that worried about Davis on the perimeter, you know.
- [41:31]
B
Well, that's what I mean by the hub thing is like, they cannot. I agree with you that he's got like at nut crunching time. Anthony Davis is a 5. It's 20, 25. We've been saying this since 2016. Yeah, it's true then. It's true now. You want to spare him in the regular season and see what this like behemoth lineup can do defensively and on the glass. Fine, I get it. What you cannot do is then relegate Anthony Davis to being like a glorified spot up guy 18ft from the rim, where no one spots up anymore in the NBA.
- [42:03]
A
No one makes 80 sit in the corner.
- [42:05]
B
Yeah, there you go.
- [42:08]
A
They. They got it. The thing that would make me more optimistic about Dallas is an in season trade. I mean, they Have Gafford on a pretty good deal if they, if they moved him, moved Washington and got some guards or wings like true wings. I mean, even Clay, like you have to put him on fours so he's only, he's only sort of a wing. Right. So if they were able to do some in season work, you'd feel a little better about them than with this. But this roster is just so top heavy right now, especially with Kyrie being out on top of it all.
- [42:48]
B
I mean, really, this year, next year, the year after. That's the window. That's the window you made and it's a small window. When you did the LUCA AD trade, you admitted it publicly. Just like we're all in for now. We're a little less protected in the future than we'd like to be.
- [43:11]
A
Shouldn't they reset that window? That's the other thing I wonder about. Like, okay, you got, you got gifted this thing that you didn't deserve when, when they handed Flag to you after you traded Luca. Okay, build the team around Flag. Now don't build it around the end years of AD and Kyrie. Build the whole thing around Flag. You get a ton for ad, you get a ton for Kyrie once he's healthy. Like, do that.
- [43:36]
B
I mean you, you have to have that scenario mapped out on your whiteboard just to have it. Like, you've got to know the market for those guys. What I was going to say is that window to me depends on Cooper. Flag's got to be an all star player fast for that. For you to actually be a contender in the next two to three years, he's got to be an all star level point forward, capable of running the offense, beating switches on both ends, both, both size discrepancies, working with Kyrie in a two man game, all that. That's plausible. You do pinpoint what I think. People are not talking about this yet. I have talked about it a few times. I think the Anthony Davis extension eligible thing this summer is one of the more fascinating pivot points that I can remember this. A year from July he becomes eligible for an extension. He has a, he's making 58.5 next season that's locked in and has a $63 million player option in 2728 when he's going to be approaching his mid-30s. That any extension there has the potential to be like a disaster level contract.
- [44:39]
A
Yep.
- [44:40]
B
And yet AD is the kind of guy, he's been a first, second team all NBA player, defensive player of the year candidate, all of it. I think he's going to have a big season. He's the kind of guy who just kind of walks in and is like, okay, what's the max? And like, that to me is a rubber meets the road. You got to be ready to make a real hard decision as a franchise. I don't know what they do. I. I've not talked to Nico Harrison or anyone there about it. I don't know what they do. I don't know how they handle it. I. That is a dicey one.
- [45:11]
A
I agree, Ed. I mean, you have the option of just playing out that season too.
- [45:16]
B
Yeah.
- [45:16]
A
Because it's a player option season. The one after it, you could. You can negotiate an extension before he hits free agency or whatever. Like, you have some things you can do there, man. I. Yeah. Committing to that when you're. When your future is really about flag and lively. Yeah, that's tough.
- [45:35]
B
I love. I love lively, by the way. Love. I know he's had some injury issues.
- [45:40]
A
Yeah.
- [45:42]
B
Last year felt slightly disappointing in the aggregate after what. What he did in the playoffs. I mentioned him on my, like, honorable mention Team USA 2028 podcast with Bill Simmons. That's how I think he's.
- [45:56]
A
Yeah.
- [45:56]
B
I think he's got a chance to be really, really good.
- [45:58]
A
Yeah.
- [45:59]
B
And again, if. If he's really good, then I don't. I don't. Not saying all star good, but just really good and flags all star good. There is a roadmap where like the rest of the west breaks right around them. That this team can have a shot to get conference finals in the next, like 27, 28, whatever. It's. It's just. I would. Wouldn't bet. I'd bet against it, but who knows? All right, next pick belongs to you. I only have two teams left. You only have two teams left. Take it away.
- [46:24]
A
See what I got here. I think I only have one team left, actually. All right. Because we overlapped with Toronto.
- [46:32]
B
Okay. Well, you can pick the next team.
- [46:38]
A
What are the Miami Heat right now?
- [46:40]
B
Not on my list. We are only going to overlap with one team.
- [46:43]
A
Wow. All right. The under dominates just one team.
- [46:48]
B
Bring it. Bring it. Miami Heat. I have already said on this podcast, even after the Tyler hero injury, that I am higher on the Heat than consensus, that I think they are closer to being in the group jostling for the sixth seed than consensus, which has them over under 37 and a half. That they're closer to that level than like scrounging around 9, 10 with Toronto and Chicago and all that. I Understand the trepidation. Tyler Herro is indeed injured to start the season. Timetable unclear. Could be a little. Could be a little more than a little. Terry Rozier exists. Not doing anything. Some of the young guys had stepped, took steps back last year, disappointingly, and the offense has been long ago hit the wall of just this doesn't work anymore. So despite all that, I am optimistic. You, I'm guessing, are less optimistic.
- [47:45]
A
Yeah, I mean they have good players. I just don't think they have any elite level players. You know, Harrow and Bam, like what can we get Bam. A shot that isn't a 17 foot pull up. Is that possible?
- [48:04]
B
Yeah, it's possible. I mean he's Bam, six, eight, playing center. Like it's gonna. He's. You would like him to overpower people. I get it. All right, continue, continue your heat pessimism. Spo's listening. SPO and Riley are listening.
- [48:19]
A
All right? I mean, belief in SPO and that they can pull a two way guy out of their ass like they always do, is probably the biggest reason to, to be optimistic about Miami. But when I look at the actual roster, the PAL trade was a nice piece of business. Turning Duncan Robinson into Fontechio was a nice piece of cat business if nothing else. But like Hawkes turned into a pumpkin last year. The Rosier trade, total disaster, right? They, they are right up against attacks, right up. You know, they have assets going out already. It's tough for them to make trades with future stuff. They still could do stuff theoretically with like picks in 30 and 32, I guess, but it's just nobody wants to go out that far out.
- [49:06]
B
Pat Riley, Brad Riley might pat Riley, like 20, 32, man, I don't care.
- [49:13]
A
No, I mean on the, on, on the other end, like if you, you're, you're putting those picks in play for like hopefully a special player and not Terry Rosier. So like, I don't know, extension coming up with hero. Like, do you really want to pay him $50 million? Like he's already signed for next year?
- [49:30]
B
No, you don't. No, no, the answer is no, you don't. And I'd be like blown away if they do.
- [49:36]
A
Yeah.
- [49:36]
B
50. No, no, no, no.
- [49:38]
A
I mean like was, was Davion Mitchell last year? Was the shooting a fluke or does that have some chance of continuing? I mean, is he a real starting point guard anyway? Or is he like. I think they like the fact that he's, you know, a bulldog on defense and stuff. But then when you, when you really get into it, is He a starting point guard. H. You know, Wiggins is still there, eh. Like kind of his destiny to be on a team that's like in the playing. Right. I don't know what else we got here. Kill out where is sort of interesting. Like maybe they get something from Yakos.
- [50:13]
B
Like, I think people are too.
- [50:15]
A
I like, I like you. I like Jovic. I think he has a chance to be like a starting player.
- [50:20]
B
I love the. I love the ovish extension that happened after. I haven't talked about that yet. I, I thought that was a great deal for both sides. It's exactly. I, I, Fred Katz and I did our extension predictions podcast last week. We both predicted. Yes. On Jovic right at this level, right at around the mid level. I think it's a fair. I think he's going to outperform or perform up to that number for sure. Probably starting this year. I think they should start him next to Bam and bring Ware off the bench because I think priority number one has to be having a functional NBA offense and that's the easiest sort of route to getting yourself there. They have been doing that so far in the preseason. And I just think for Jovic, like, it's one of those things I talked about this where, yeah, you know, you could do the hard line thing of more teams are going to have cap room in theory at least. Well, definitely more than just Brooklyn. He could blow up this year. He might be leaving money on the table and you're like, that's $60 million. It's a lot of money. I think it's a great deal for both sides. Look, I think people are too low on where I think Ware's got a chance to be pretty good defensively. This team should be strong. The Powell Hero together minutes are. You're gonna have to cover for those guys. I think they can. They're going to compete.
- [51:31]
A
Why? Why should this team be strong defensively?
- [51:33]
B
Well, Bam Wiggins, Mitchell, good coaching. I, I think they're just going to play really, really hard. And you know, there was. They were good defensively last year. I think they were what, like ninth in the league Defensively, I think I, I just believe in the infrastructure a little bit more than consensus. If Hero's out a long time, it could be different. I'd like. I think Fontechio is a useful NBA player. Pella Larson's a useful NBA player. I just think they're gonna. I think they're gonna finagle. I think they're gonna finagle. But I get your confusion and the number one source for confusion is like, why does this team's offense suck every year and can it not suck? Can they find a way for it not to suck? And I said last, last week, I got little birdies whispering to me that their offense is gonna look stylistically different this year. They're trying some dramatic stuff. So we'll see. All right, I got two more teams left. You got any other thoughts on the Heat?
- [52:27]
A
No. Let's move on.
- [52:31]
B
Indiana Pacers.
- [52:33]
A
Yeah.
- [52:35]
B
Residual sheen. Residual sheen from the finals run. 37 and a half over under way too high. A lot of people won't write them off because, you know, they just made the finals. Siakam and Nemhardt ready for larger roles in the wake of Halliburton and Miles Turner not being on the team anymore.
- [52:55]
A
Rick is a wizard. Yeah.
- [52:57]
B
Hall of Fame coach. They look like a team that's going to compete at least until the wheels fall off. Like not think about gap year tanking, all that stuff. Even, even like some. I was going to say some of the numbers. Like if you look at Siakam on Halliburton and Turner off in the regular season, that was solid, but in the playoffs it completely collapsed. And overall without Halliburton, they were dead in the water. I guess. I guess my confusion is what do the optimists see as a roadmap to them being competitive? And I think it's all the stuff we talked about already, plus defense, full court press, we've removed our weakest defender and Halliburton from the rotation entirely. And so we're going to compensate for the dip in offense by just being hellacious and long and frenzied on defense. I just don't see it. I think the double blow of Turner and Halliburton is just. I think people are underestimating it. I don't know that Nemhard is really ready to take on the kind of two way load he's going to have to take on. I don't know that Isaiah Jackson is ready. I'm generally optimistic about him. But is he going to be the starting center right away?
- [54:10]
A
Yeah, he million coming off an Achilles. What was that?
- [54:13]
B
I thought that was fine. I get why they did it at least. I understood the confusion too. But like he's not a spacer. He's flirted with like trying to be a corner three shooter. He's not a spacer. So what does that do to like the Siakam Nemhardt two man game? They're trend. They actually played. Believe it. Or not faster with Halliburton on the bench. Last year they played fast overall regardless, but their transition efficiency plummeted without Halliburton to run the show. I just don't. Some people seem to see it with this team, like, yeah, 42 and 40 pacers, super competitive. 43 and 39. I. I don't see it at all. I think they're going to be way worse than that. And I guess my confusion is like, what. What do people see?
- [54:55]
A
So I'm with you there. I think the thing people aren't talking enough about is the lack of shooting without Hal Burton and Turner. Nemhard. What did you like? 29 last year and then the playoffs.
- [55:09]
B
I think he shot 94%.
- [55:11]
A
Yeah. Yes, exactly. So people think. Forget about that. McConnell never shoots threes, of course. Matherin, really good downhill scorer, but from long range has kind of been average at best. And then they have no spacing from the center position. If it's Jackson or Bradley or Wiseman, Jay Huff is the one guy who can give him some of that Wahoo. Wah. But I. You like. Is he a guy who should be playing?
- [55:33]
B
We're not doing that. We're not doing Wahoo. Nope, we're not doing it.
- [55:37]
A
Come on. You got Rick Carlile, you got Jenny Busack. Let's go.
- [55:40]
B
There's a lot of uva. You're right, there is a lot. I didn't underestimated the amount of UVA that was going to be part of this.
- [55:45]
A
I think they're going to be, you know, playing a lot of minutes with Obi topping as a small ball five. What does that do to their defense?
- [55:51]
B
Those numbers were good last year. Seakum topping together were good. But again, like how those are against.
- [55:55]
A
Soft second units, though.
- [55:57]
B
How much of it is the same.
- [55:58]
A
Thing with like you talk about how they played fast without Halliburton, but Those were all McConnell minutes. Right. Those weren't nem hard at the 1. And so how do you. How do you maintain that pace without the guy who really gave you that pace in Halliburton? When it's. When it's Nemhard, Matheran Nesmith is your three perimeter guys.
- [56:24]
B
Yeah. The whole identity of the team flowed from one player. And the fact that you paired that one player with a pretty good to sometimes great until the final shooting center and Miles Turner, that whole conception is obliterated on arrival. This year it's gone.
- [56:42]
A
Yeah.
- [56:43]
B
And I think rebuilding a new identity, like they have some ingredients they can pluck from. From their finals Run, but I think doing that is really hard. Like for instance, one of the reasons their offense was so good is they'd never turned the ball over, which is a Rick Carlisle team thing. But it's also been like a Luka thing in Dallas and a Halliburton thing in Indiana. Is that sustainable? Their rim defense was very good last year when Miles Turner was on the floor. Is that sustainable with what they have left? Like, I just don't. I am interested in sort of how they play. Like, how does this actually look if you're starting Nemhardt, Mather and Neesmith, Siakam Jackson, how do you map a half court offense out of that one? Note on Matheran, by the way. 41% catch and shoot threes, 28% pull up threes. That's interesting to me. Like, can you. Can he recalibrate his game or is the absence of Halliburton going to push him more towards sort of the more off the dribble, more score first parts of his game? I don't see it. Okay, can we do one more team? Unless you have further thoughts on the Pacers.
- [57:47]
A
Nah. Rock and roll.
- [57:49]
B
This team, my last team.
- [57:51]
A
All right.
- [57:52]
B
They're not going to be good. Okay. I have no confusion about that.
- [57:55]
A
Okay.
- [57:56]
B
They're over. Under is 31 and a half. Maybe 32 and a half as of today. So. So not good. I don't think they're going to be good. Don't have a bright future. Don't have really a lot of future, period. This is more like the version of what happened here. Who's on this team and how is this actually going to look on the floor? And that is the hard playing start A new culture 2025, 2026 Phoenix Suns. The aftermath of the Beal, Durant Booker super team that Never was their 2nd, 3rd and 5th most minutes players from last year are gone. And Durant, Beal and Tyus Jones, who was third in minutes. I think there's a million new guys. You were talking earlier about the Rockets having a lot of fours. This team has, by my count, nine players who are either three and a halfs, fours or fives in Fleming, Royce, o', Neill, Hayes, Davis, Dunn, Iguidoro, Richards, Williams, Malawatch, Mark Williams. I already said Mark Williams. Maybe somebody else I'm from and everyone.
- [59:13]
A
Else is a two.
- [59:16]
B
And yeah, like, unless Colin Gillespie is playing a ton of minutes, which probably isn't a great sign. I like Colin Gillespie. He's had some moments for them. I don't know, like they don't really have a point guard when Devin Booker's on the bench. The shot creation like terrifies me. The level of like, okay, Jalen Green. Yeah, do it. Yeah. I like what, what is this team like how. What's happening here? Dylan Brooks is still here. He's also like the best trade candidate on the team and they should probably trade him to a contender who wants to give you real stuff for him at some point. I mean, I'm assuming the best trade.
- [59:54]
A
Candidate on the team is Devin Booker, but that's the move that they won't that well after this extension. Maybe not. I mean but the, the move they should have made is like you got. You got to go all the way and trade Booker and get your picks back.
- [60:08]
B
I don't agree. I don't agree with that quite yet. Especially I thought they did pretty well in the Durant trade. Yes. If you can get your picks back, it gets interesting. Right. Because then you control your destiny a little bit. Although we saw with Brooklyn not the fail safe you think it is in the new lottery rules. But I understand them saying this dude is 28, 29 years old. He's a tent pole of our community. We wanted to be a one team guy. The extension though, $70 million player option in 2930 is not great. I'm assuming they're going to start. My guess would be Booker Green. Yeah, Brooks. I'm penciling in Ryan Dunn at the four.
- [60:48]
A
I can we talk about the. The Brooks and Dunn with wingstopper combo.
- [60:54]
B
That stopper maybe I could see them going Grayson Allen over Dunn and sliding Brooks to the floor. But I'm going to put done and Mark Williams at the five. The bench then becomes Grayson Allen. Royce, o', Neal, Fleming, Aguadaro, Hayes, Davis, Richards, Malawatch. I think they want to play Iguidaro some at the five. Even though they have a lot of centers, they want to see how that looks. Goodwin. Jordan Goodwin I think is good. Not a point guard. But I just. It's just a weird mix of players and I have no idea how it's going to look on the floor.
- [61:27]
A
Yeah, like the on ball. Who's playing on the ball at any given time, especially when Booker is out of the game, is going to be a little wacky. You know, maybe. Maybe Jared Butler works in there. Gillespie, like you said, I've heard good things about Grayson Allen coming out of there from camp or whatever. But like he's another shooting guard. Like where did. Where do they even slot him in? You know, Hayes, Davis and Fleming are just catch and shoot sky. Oh. So Iguidaro is interesting because he could be a secondary handle guy. Like he can dribble a little bit and make passes from the high post and stuff. So using him as a backup 5 because Malawatch I think is a project. I thought he was a little bit of a reach at 10 actually. So I, I, yeah I could see Iguidaro taking those back up five minutes. But yeah, like well then that means.
- [62:16]
B
Richards is minimized which fine. Like I don't really it's neither here nor there to me and it means model watch maybe doesn't play very much which again like fine, he's a project. I'd like to see the 10th pick in the draft play some. I just don't. I mean I, I have been a Jalen Green optimist. Last year was not good and the decision making just hasn't progressed either as a passer or as like an in the paint. Like I'm just gonna fly at the rim and hope that this wild layup comes in.
- [62:49]
A
Yeah, for somebody that athletic like the finishing is weirdly not good.
- [62:55]
B
I agree with what you're saying on Booker and like is there a moment in the next two or three years where he just says look, I want it to be Kobe on Phoenix. I want it to be a one team guy. I want it to be Dirk in Dallas. I just don't have a roadmap here. Yeah, to me that's plausible but I don't think he wants to do that. Everything I've heard about Devon and for people around Devin is he really wants to make it work in Phoenix. I like Mark Williams. Like I like Mark Williams. The injuries obviously make me nervous as there was a trade rescinded and all of that. Yeah, the defense has like I think offensively he's going to be a really good rim running offensive. One of the best offensive rebounders in the league has good hands. It's make or break on defense for me. Like I like I like I, I guess not only is it a confusing team, I know they added Brooks Dunn is fine. I just don't know how this is A they were 27th in defense last year. I, I a top 20 defense to me seems like a reach.
- [63:59]
A
Yeah, you're you're probably counting on scheme to do a lot of work and just being kind of big across the backcourt with Green, Booker, Brooks and I like Jordan Ott.
- [64:09]
B
I think he's going to do a good job. I think he's going to bring a lot of that Cleveland, Kenny Atkinson, funky movement to the offense. It's just. I would be really depressed if I were a Phoenix Suns fan. Just looking at this team, it's. It's got a bunch of guys. Like, I know all these guys. I know him. I know Royce o' Neill real well. Know him like, I know him as a player.
- [64:28]
A
Yeah.
- [64:28]
B
I just don't know how any of it fits together, and maybe that's okay. This year is not supposed to be, like, a contention year, but the getting from here to there seems very murky to me, so that rounds out my list. I had Boston, Indiana, Phoenix, Dallas and Toronto. Only overlapped on one we covered. That means we covered a third of the league. John Hollinger, almost.
- [64:54]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Nine teams, right? Nine out of 30.
- [64:58]
B
How's your. How's your outlook on the brewers? They. They've. They're up 1 0, right?
- [65:02]
A
Yeah. Yeah. And I scored nine runs in the first two innings on the Cubs, so. Very exciting. Mo. Milwaukee's thing is they always run out of hitting in the playoffs, and our second best pitcher, Brandon Woodruff, is injured and might not be back. So a little worried about that. Might be doing, like, bullpen games for most of the playoffs, which is a little weird.
- [65:21]
B
I just watched a whole season of bullpen games, basically. John, with the New York Metropolitans. Basically, that was the whole year.
- [65:32]
A
Fair enough. But I'm excited. I'm. I'm optimistic. I got my fingers crossed.
- [65:36]
B
So when will you make a Finals prediction on the Athletic?
- [65:40]
A
Oh, that's going to be coming in the next. I'm trying to remember when they're going to run that. I think it's going to be. It's definitely within the next two weeks because the season starts the 21st. So somewhere in there. Yes. My fearless predictions. Comms will run and we'll have. We'll have my. My Finals pick. I have a Brewers vs. Mariners.
- [66:00]
B
I haven't made a Finals pick yet.
- [66:04]
A
Really?
- [66:05]
B
No. In my head, I don't. I have it down to two teams in each conference, and I still don't know which ones of the. Of the two that I'm picking. And not surprisingly, it's Oklahoma City and Denver in the west and New York and Cleveland in the East.
- [66:21]
A
So not Toronto.
- [66:23]
B
Not Toronto. This is not the year for the Raptors to make the Finals. Maybe the finals of the play in. Um, I do think, like, there's always a team or two that either in the playoffs announces themselves as a real threat or in the regular season, announces themselves as a real threat someone is going to bust out and be like, oh, yeah, like maybe it's Orlando, maybe it's Atlanta, maybe, But. But I'm down to those four teams. All right, John I wish the brewers good luck. Is brewers is Brewers, Cubs like a big Is there hate? Is there vitriol? Is it like Cubs, Cardinals because of the proximity, or is it not enough history for that?
- [67:01]
A
There's not enough history because the brewers are in the American League for so long. So it's, it's starting to bubble up a little more. But it's, it's just that, like, Cubs and Cardinals are just like generations have grown up hating each other. So it's, it's just different.
- [67:15]
B
Well, good luck to the Brewers. Baseball is great. John Hollinger, I sincerely mean it. The best to ever do it. Read him at the Athletic. Listen to him on Hollinger and Duncan. He's all over the place. Fearless predictions coming out. He's got a bunch of offseason columns to catch up on if you haven't done that yet. Thank you for your time, buddy.
- [67:31]
A
Thanks for having me.
- [67:33]
B
All right, that's it for today's Zach Lowe Show. Thank you to John Hollinger, thank you to Jesse, Victoria and Mike on production. We'll be back later this week with a second episode. Who knows what will happen between now and then? Maybe there'll be some extensions. We'll get a better idea of what some of these preseason rotations look like. Thanks to you guys for listening or watching the Zach Lowe Show. See you later this week. Must be 21 or over in President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 or over in President D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-Gambler or visit FanDuel.com RG call 1-887-89-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit Gambling Helpline MA. Org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New York.