A (4:47)

I mean, it's sad. It's sad. I'd start with this as a 36 year old player who's made the NBA a lot better for many years. And it's just sad that this character has now been removed from the season. That's where I'd start, Zach. It's always sad. It can always happen. Um, but not only does does Jimmy just have this devastating late career knee injury, which is just, just an awful situation, but yeah, it effectively ends whatever chance Golden State had to, to be a frisky contender in the Western Conference as well. So I think those are the two big headlines out of this one. It's just sad that this old player has this catastrop injury at the stage of his career and then downstream effects. This affects Stephen Curry's maybe last best chance to compete with the Golden State warriors, which is very sad. I mean the NBA playoffs for 10 years now have been better in large part because of Stephen Curry and Jimmy Butler having these iconic performances in April, May and June. And it's just, it's just really sad now that the Jimmy's injury has, has taken those, it looks like, taken those away from us this year.

B (5:59)

Well, I mean, and the real sad thing is this was all lined up to be a two year thing, right? His Jimmy's deal and Steph's deal and Draymond's deal with a. A player option, albeit all expire after next season. And like it's, we're 40 games into this season. You know, Jimmy's 37 years old. Who knows when he's going to come back next season. Like this doesn't affect this season. This affects next season too. I mean, certainly the calendar and typical recovery time suggests he will come back next season in the middle of the season at some point. What condition is he going to be in? This doesn't wipe out this season, only for the Warriors. It could, it could potentially wipe out next season. It does raise some interesting questions for the Warriors. All the attention right away was on Kaminga. Like, are they going to play Kaminga? Are they going to keep Kaminga? What does this mean for Kaminga? I saw Shams went on SportsCenter today and said the relationship between Kaminga and Steve Kerr is fractured beyond repair. Yeah, I would probably agree with that based on what I've hear. I heard Shams float a Kaminga for Demar derozan trade, which made me want to throw up a little bit in my mouth on behalf of warriors fans. Like the last thing the warriors need is another guard tweener, whatever. Who, like, they just have a lot of guards. They have a lot enough ball handling, enough guards who doesn't play any defense. And I, Kirk, I gotta be honest with You, I don't care about this story anymore. They're either gonna keep Kaminga and he's going to play a little bit, play not at all, but play a lot. I don't think there's a long term marriage here to be salvaged at all, or they're going to trade him and they're going to trade him for not very much and not anything that really impacts their life now or going forward unless he's packaged as part of a larger deal. And to me, that's what's most interesting here, is nothing to do with Kaminga and more that this clarifies for the warriors, like, we can't do anything. We can't do any of these buy now when this season moves, whether it was Michael Porter Jr. Or Anthony Davis, who I just don't think they were ever super into, considering Draymond's got to go out in that deal, or, I mean, maybe. I just can't imagine a world in which Dallas is so desperate to get off Anthony Davis that they then take an injured Jimmy Butler just for the sake of doing the deal. To me, this more clarifies the warriors stance of we hold off on all that. We get to the offs unless something huge happens at the trade deadline in Milwaukee, which I don't think we wait until the summer, reassess what we can get. When we throw all our chips into it. They're not going to be the only team that does this. But to me, I'm just like, all right, this season shot, unless something falls into my lap, I'm just. We're not, we're not throwing away an asset just to do it.

A (8:47)

Yeah, that's. That seems to be where we're at. And it's a really sad way to get to a place where you're really, really resigned that you're not a title contender this year. But that sort of sober reality is going to set in, I hope, in Golden State. Because from a team building perspective, Zach, that's the right mindset right now. You don't want to start throwing good money after bad and start chasing things when there's teams like OKC and Minnesota and San Antonio and Denver ahead of you who are much healthier and younger. It's sad, but that's the reality. So I think you're right. I don't think this is a win now move. And I think two days ago or 48 hours ago, the warriors were in that mindset. There was a win now situation. Here we were 11 and 4, 12 and 4. As you said, in our last 16 games, we have started figuring out this offense. We have rotations without Kaminga, by the way. And we proved we can win a lot of basketball games with this combination of Jimmy Butler and Stephen Curry and Draymond Green. Well, the math has changed and I think the philosophy has changed and that sucks for Golden State. And the response is now. We're still trading Jonathan Kaminga. I think, I think I'd ask you that. We're still trading Jonathan Kaminga, right? He's not the replacement, right? Zach, like you said, Seam said, this is fractured beyond repair, which is a crazy quote. Um, so I think he's still going to get traded. The question is, what do you want in return from Jonathan Kaminga at this point, at this new reality, Honestly, like.

B (10:29)

If, if, if DeMar DeRozan or like, they don't want Malik Monk. They've never won a Malik Monk. Dallas has reportedly kicked it around. I don't even know what the deal, what the trade would be with Dallas if I'm just not getting anything good for Jonathan Kaminga. Like DeRozan, for instance, is salary matching, decent player, good ISO score, only $10 million guaranteed next year on his contract. Okay, fine. They might just keep him and be like, look, we can get to the summer. I mean, this is a team that doesn't feel like it's totally out of Ayannis sweepstakes. If we ever get, if, if, if Milwaukee fans, we ever get to ianna sweepstakes and Kaminga's 22, whatever million dollar salary, plus they can trade basically three and a half first round picks plus whatever else, you know, they feel like they could get in the conversation, if only because it's, it's almost a bizarre logic to it. They could say to, to Milwaukee, like, hey, we're so old that our picks might actually have value. Like, you, you should bet against us in the long term, maybe. Like, even if we get Giannis, who's 31, I don't know how realistic that is. And to be clear, everything I've heard right now, Milwaukee, it's sad that we're saying this, Kirk, big win in the play in race last night at the Hawks or yesterday afternoon at the Hawks, snuck it out late in the game. CJ McCollum got bottled up at the buzzer. Everything I've heard is like, they're still trying to buy, they're still trying to save this season. The east is so bad. We think we have the best player in the conference. They do. We think, who knows if we get in what kind of damage we can do. I don't know who the win now candidate is for them that actually makes a difference. But I keep hearing that they're looking around, and until Giannis actually really pushes the nuclear button, I don't think that's going to change. And so the Warriors I think probably are like, well, look, we might as well hold on to whatever we have to see. And on Anthony Davis, I don't know, man. I never really got it for the Warriors. I don't really get it for that many teams. But let's just like, you know, it's been over for the warriors for a while now. It's like over, over. And Kaminga is on the outs. They picked him over Franz Wagner. The Wiseman pick is obviously the one that they'll just rue forever. It's over. Lamelo, over Halliburton, over Deni Abdia. In fairness, you also have to say it's over. Killian Hayes and Patrick Williams and Jalen Spill. There's a chance you missed that pick. And then Moody, who's fine. There was definitely a contingent in Golden State that wanted to look a little harder at Alper and Shen Gun in that draft. And, you know, but this is. You could do this for any team.

A (13:13)

Yeah, you can do it.

B (13:13)

The two timelines thing failed. It was never actually a plan. And now it's like, now it's over, over. And you can't tank with Steph there. You can't trade Steph ever. And he'll never want to be traded. And that's admirable on both sides. You just got to hope for a miracle in the off season, I think. Yeah.

A (13:31)

I mean, he's the most important human being in the history of the organization, and you have to do right by him. And that's where this is most interesting to me now, because he's at the last phase. He deserves whatever he wants. I think every warriors fan would agree with that. Whatever he wants. If he wants to push, hey, I'd rather be a six seed and throw away the future assets. And by the way, the out years, you're exactly right. All the nerds in the practice facilities around the NBA, they model whose out your picks are most likely to be valuable. And you know, warriors five years post, Steph is in a Western Conference with a bunch of young guys that's going to show up as a really valuable asset. So in a weird way, you're right. Like that line of reasoning that they could throw out there, hey, our out your picks are. Are pretty Good. Because you know, we're, we're not going to be great post Steph, but I think I come back to this. What, what does Stephen Curry want and what does the front office want to provide to him? Even if it means at the expense of long term sustainability in Golden State. And so they could be pretty aggressive in the, in the middle term here trying to build around, replace that Jimmy Butler piece, even replace the Draymond Green piece if that's what Stephen Curry wants. So I think it's what realistically can they do to keep Stephen Curry happy as he wraps up one of the best careers in NBA history and certainly the best career in Golden State warriors history.

B (14:56)

The Chase center is the house that Steph built. I'm sure Joe lacob and Peter Guber would like you to think it's the house that their business genius in light years ahead acumen built. It's the house that Steph built. The whole thing is built on the back of the most unique and greatest shooter in the history of the NBA. They also, I mean, like it should be mentioned, they're barely, if I'm reading Spotrak right, they're barely under the second apron and way over the luxury tax. So it's not like they can just willy nilly do stuff both this, at least this season. Next season they get maybe a little bit more breathing room and then two seasons from now they're set up to be completely free. I mentioned a couple of big names. Can we do, can we just talk a little bit? We're two weeks away from the trade deadline, more or less. You want to start with Anthony Davis or Giannis? Slash, what are the Bucks doing?

A (15:44)

Man, I think you got to start with Giannis. And again, I watched their game against the Hawks yesterday and the vibes were not great. But somehow Derry Bird made that great late three swarm. They swarm CJ McCollum and steal a game after spending I think three full days in Atlanta leading up to that game. But they won against the Atlanta Hawks. Decent team. And talk about a team with a major fork in the road here. I think they're going to be very active at the trade deadline one way or another. They're sort of, they're sort of picking Zach. Are we trying to, to, to do this around Giannis or are we pulling the plug entirely? Regardless, you land at the same place. This is a team to watch at the trade deadline, so I'd like to start there.

B (16:30)

I have never closed the door all the way on Giannis being traded in season. I have always said. And I think this remains the case. It's the summer is always been the most likely place where this really, really hits the rubber, hits the road when they can offer him an extension and if he doesn't take it, he can say, well, I never demanded a trade. That's basically the same thing as asking for a trade. I've never closed the door only because of the scenario. Like, if they just keep nose diving down the standings, all bets are off to me. And, and I don't know, I mean, I don't know if Yanis, if even if they lost 10 in a row, Giannis would ever go and request a trade. Maybe he wants to wait until the offseason is just cleaner that way. It's cleaner. It's cleaner for all these other teams. Like, it's not easy to just totally upend your team 55 games into the season, particularly for Western Conference teams who have a ton of assets like the spurs, your San Antonio spurs, your former employers. Look, you could definitely make a case that they should be aggressive for Giannis. Now, they're just good teams with this many good young players that are number two in the standings just don't do that. Even the Rockets, who have sort of hit the wall offensively, like, you feel the Fred Van Vliet absence quite acutely now. Tari Easton's hurt, Finney Smith has barely contributed. Do they have enough shooting? Yada, yada, yada. Like, I don't see them upending their team in the middle of this season to make a huge seismic trade. Now, if they lose in the first round of the playoffs or if the spurs disappointed the playoffs or whatever, like there will be a new suitor that could emerge for a guy like Giannis. But look, I don't, I mean, I. They're six and five. The Bucks are. Since Giannis came back, they're still somehow in 11th. They don't. You know, I just, I think they'll stay afloat well enough and I don't even know, like the, the needle to thread for them is they have one first round pick to trade now and they accumulate more once the calendar flips past the draft. Is there a way that they can buy, get a real player in without trading that pick? Then you're probably taking in like super duper dead ish money, but attached to talent. I don't even know who that would be. But you know, you know all the names that have been mentioned for them. Michael Porter Jr. Zach Levine, John Morant, and on and on and on with these sort of Distressed, big salary players. Is there anyone you like? To me, none of those are changing their life as a team. It might feel good in the moment, and I just don't think any of those are, like, making them a contender.

A (19:04)

No. Drew Holiday, I'd like that, but they already messed that up. And I say that sort of in jest, Zach, but, like, this is a team who I would describe as impatient in the 2000 and 20s, and I think that's relevant here. They have made move after move after move when a lot of ownership groups or front offices would have just sat back and said, all right, let's take a lump here, let's get through this. They don't do that. They don't do that. They fire coaches, they make big trades. So I think their character on the market is naturally one of the more active ones to begin with, so I expect them to do something. I don't like those players you mentioned for them, but I haven't liked a lot of the moves they've made over the last few years, including getting Kyle Kuzma and Damian Lillard at various points, firing Mike Budenholzer. I don't like their. Their LinkedIn page of. Of transactions over the last five years, so I think that's relevant. They've missed on the draft over and over and over again, so they don't have that kind of capital to trade out to get a good player either. So, I mean, they just haven't done a good job building a contender around one of the best players in the world. I think you cited those on off numbers in one of your previous episodes that are just staggering. All you need to know is when Giannis is on the court, they profile like a contender, and when he's off the court, they profile like a lottery team. That. That to me screams. There's just no depth here. That's not a lot of trade pieces then. So that's a long way of saying I think they'll do something, but I'm not sure I'll endorse whatever they end up landing on.

B (20:52)

I disagree with you a little bit. I mean, they definitely missed in the draft. You can go, Bo, you can go trading A.J. johnson right away. You can go a bunch of different places with that. But that's like when you're picking in the late 20s or not having picks because you traded them, like, that's generally what's going to happen. They did win a championship. Like their super aggressive posture got them. Drew Holliday got them the first championship in the franchise since in 50 years, I liked the Dame trade. Like, I like. I thought it was. I understood it. I thought it was smart. I thought it was worth it. It didn't work. I still don't think that means it was a bad trade. It just didn't. Just didn't work. And it looked very bad. When Jrue Holiday went to Boston, the Celtics won the title, but I will defend that trade continually now. Yeah, I don't know who the. Like, Levine is not interesting to me. Jeremy Grant is not super interesting to me with the money he's got coming to him. Morant. Look, everyone, can we settle down when John Moran plays one good game, and yes, it was like a showcase game. Everyone's watching. It's in London. It's in the afternoon. All the international celebrity players are there, and he looks great. They boat race the magic. In the second game, he finally deigns to play like I did. Enjoy, like, the hourly updates. He's trending toward playing. He's probably going to play. It looks like he's going to play. He's officially going to play. Yay. And he has an awesome game. He makes all his threes. He gets to the rim. He defended at le. He, like, followed the game plan defensively. He was totally engaged. And there's all this, like. Well, now his trade value is. Is going up. It's going up by the day. He's like, can I see it for a week before I start saying he's got like. I have not. I don't know if you have. I have not found a team that has definitively said to me, we're definitely. We're definitely trying to get John Moran. Like, I just. And I have not heard anything since one good game happened. I'd like to see, like, forget a month. I'm not even asking for a month. Can we have four games in a row like this before we start talking about his trade value is going up?

A (23:00)

I haven't heard anybody, and I don't think there is one. Again, one of the big characters here, Zach, is what the CBA makes these in season trades very difficult, particularly with these large salary blocks. And that's if nothing, John Morant and Giannis are those. So I think one of the ways you can take a shortcut to prognosticating what's about to happen here in two weeks. It's just like whatever the opposite of greasing the wheels of the trade machine is, is what the current CBA has done. I don't know if that's pouring sugar in the gasoline tank of the trade machine. But I don't see the John Morant market a. On the court, he's a question mark, particularly on defense and availability wise, does he make your team better? He's one of the worst jump shooters in the league recently. And then of course, all the off the court risk too. So you don't see a lot of teams signing up for. For that. I mean, I think he could be a great player in this league. I don't think you'll find many scouts that disagree with that. It's just the amount of risk you have to absorb to take it on is too much for a lot of these teams to bear. So when it comes to the Memphis trade market, it's. It's a crazy saga. You didn't even mention, like, the weird, like, Zabruder film they were showing of him having the on court interaction in Berlin the day before. Like, getting into it with a teammate. Like, this is just the John Moran experience right now. It's. It's as much as it's the Days of our Lives version of NBA basketball, and I'm sick of it. For a player who frankly is one of my favorite ones to watch when he does play like he did in London. Long story short, I don't think there's a market there for various reasons.

B (24:38)

And I completely agree with you. Like, I was a John Morant true believer three, four years ago. Like, this guy looked. We were. I don't. I've never particularly enjoyed the face of the league conversation, but he was in that conversation whether you liked it or not. And he just seemed like a galvanizing force, a guy who inspired his teammates to play harder, to play with a certain, like, snarling tenacity and, and bravado almost above their station in the league. But, like, you want a young team to have, and then it's all gone sideways. I've already gone through all the teams who theoretically make sense for him. If there's no offer of. Of any. Like, it's been reported that Zach Kleiman and the Grizzlies want young players and draft capital. I don't see that being available to them. Unless he goes on a run like this for a month or we don't even have a month, we have two weeks. And if that's the case, like, I wouldn't put it past the Grizzlies to just be like, we're keeping you. And by the way, they're not bad. Like, when he actually plays, they're 18 and 23. They're now a half game out of the play in. I don't exactly know what they want out of this season. If they want another high ish draft pick, they will certainly indicate that by their actions, just as the Jazz are doing right now with their protected first round pick. They traded a bunch of the stuff they got from Orlando for Bane for Cedric Coward, which is going to be a very good trade. He's awesome. But it's not like they're super duper stocked with like blue, blue, blue chip draft picks and swaps. They have a couple attractive swaps but they're like, like they, they looked awesome in that one game against Orlando. They looked pretty good in the first game and then Orlando caught them. If they have job playing like that. Jaren Jackson Jr. Is I think underrated and having a solid year and definitely a solid couple of weeks. I mean he ate Ban Caro's lunch in those two games abroad and they were playing him at the five more in the second game. That's like a powerful alignment for them. They have a deep team despite the fact that Pippen Jr hasn't played this year. Ty Jerome hasn't played this year. Brandon Clark has barely played this year. Like they're not bad. And so I could see Zach Klein being like, look, if we got nothing for you, too bad. Like you've lost the power struggle with the coach. We're backing the coach. You're here, we're not trading you play. I'll tell you this though. I get a lot of teams asking me about Jaren Jackson Jr. And like that is there's always three or four guys who become unexpectedly. Right. I'm not even saying, I'm not saying he's available, but just stuff comes up and I have teams asking me about him. I saw Tim McMahon on the hoop Collective with Wendy and Bontem. Said he checked in And Jaren Jackson Jr. Doesn't. I think the way he put it was he doesn't want out of Memphis. He would just like to know what the plan is. I've heard something similar in the last 24, 48 hours. Like I think he's fine staying there. I also don't think he would like fight tooth and nail against the trade to a better, more cohesive team. He is owed 50 plus million dollars over the next four seasons after this one. That's a lot. But man, when they play him at center, he's, I think the rebounding is really, it's a problem. He's not a great rebounder. He's averaging 19 a game. 48% shooting. His three ball is up to 37%. Opponents are only shooting like 52% at the rim against him. His defense looks like it's back to where it was almost when he won defensive player of the year. You put him at center or you put him in alignments when everyone around him can shoot whatever the alignments are, he's a pretty goddamn powerful player. Teams are sniffing around. I think the salary might be prohibitive, but I'm just. I'm eyeing it. That's all I'm saying.

A (28:26)

Yeah, he's more compelling as a piece in many ways than John Moran is. Right for a quasi contender to talk themselves into a stretchy big man who can protect the rim and play well next to other bigs, which I always say with him. He was at his best when Stephen Adams was there clogging up the middle and he was able to sort of come and help side like Serge Ibaka and just destroy people with blocked shots. But he has a very sort of attractive upside. The other thing I'll say is a lot of people are comparing this to the Trey Young situation with John Morant. The Hawks had ample evidence that their basketball team was a lot better on the floor without Trey Young.

B (29:09)

He's playing great for the Wizards though. He's really, really changed their team and make. He's making life easier for all their supporting play. All their young players getting easier shots because he's passing, he's playing great.

A (29:18)

Oh yeah. Just one of these many cases of that around the league of superstars playing. But look, dude, the thing as I get older that I really appreciate Zach and Memphis actually. I remember I wrote for Grantland something about the Rudy Gay trade and back in the day and Chris Wallace called the next day and was like, you can't. What? You don't understand what you're talking to. I. Turns out I didn't. But there's an ownership in a ticket selling and a popcorn selling. Part of this business still Jersey sales that Ja Morant and Giannis Antetokounmpo really represent for the cities of Memphis and Milwaukee in those.

B (29:58)

Chris Vernon just did Chris Vernon just body snatch you. Are you Chris? Chris, is that you?

A (30:03)

Chris? No, dude, look, I think there's basketball reasons and I love Chris Vernon and he, he. I love that he. He's with Ja till the end. I love that about him. I love his target story about Cedric Coward. But dude, I think there's something really interesting about the business of basketball that gets overlooked here in these small markets. There is no next John Moran coming to Memphis. That's a miracle when you get a player like that in Memphis, Tennessee Giannis Antetokounmpo. It's a miracle you get a player like that in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Those guys don't take their talents to those markets very often, and you need the draft to get them. So to get off of one of those guys is a business decision as much as a basketball decision. And I think that's relevant here, too. So if it's coming down to we want 25 cents on the dollar for John Morant versus, hey, we'll continue to sell jerseys and tickets and keep the fans happy because John Morant remains very power popular in Memphis in a way that, say, Trey Young wasn't at the end in Atlanta. So I think that's really relevant here, too.

B (31:11)

Z Now, he may not want to play for Tuomas Isolo. I don't think he does. I think he's made that pretty clear. Despite pointing to the Grizzlies tattoo on his back and saying, I'm a loyal guy, et cetera. I don't really. I think that relationship is not good. The team is clearly, by announcing to the world through media that they are open for business on Ja. Morant has said to the world, has said to Ja, the coach ain't going anywhere. And so Ja played really well in. In London. I like, if he plays like. Like the fear would be he's going to be disengaged. The way he was in that Lakers game, that was like a flashbald moment earlier in the year where he just wasn't doing anything. He was unhappy. That was the game. East Low called him out in the locker room afterward and all went sideways from there. The player I saw in London was engaged on both ends of the floor and playing the way you want him to. Now, a skeptic would say maybe he's engaged because he knows they can't trade me unless I increase my trade value between now and February 5th to the point that a team will actually give them an offer that they'll act on. What happens if he's still on the team after February 5th? Do we see that jaw that was in London? I don't know. But if we do, it's a good team. It's a good. It's a good team. That's. That's totally fine. Kicking the can into the off season?

A (32:31)

Yeah, I think so. And look, his seal. Nobody's ever doubted this guy's ceiling, man. He's like a Tyrese Maxey, Donovan, Mitchell, one of these guards that can score 40, make big plays when other players can't and in clutch moments get into the pain at will, finish with dunks and floaters. Nobody's questioning that. It's the ultimate NBA cliche with this guy is the best ability is availability. Are we getting that? And for one reason or another he's, he's just not like. And if you look at his last calendar year, two years in that uniform, it's the exception, not the rule that we get. That game that we got in London, a previous example, a lot of people talk about he was great against Philadelphia earlier this year. Looked like the best player in a big close game. It's like damn, that guy can do that.

B (33:23)

Yeah, yeah. There were two and a half weeks.

A (33:24)

Between those two games, right Zach, that's your point, right? It's like let's not look at the two games, let's look at the other. What are we halfway through? Let's look at the other 40 because that's, that's really what we're getting. And all the, all the off court shit by the way too is there's not a lot of general managers that want to invite that kind of headache into their lives, into their careers. And so I think there's just a really tepid market for John Morant.

B (33:53)

And by the way back to take it all the way back to Giannis. I have no hard intel that the Bucks are even interested in John Morant. I just have them on the list because of the desperation factor.

A (34:04)

That's right.

B (34:05)

Any and their flexibility under the tax for any big money, semi distressed, maybe even injured in Anthony Davis's case, star level player that they could look to Yan look at Giannis and say hey look we, we tried like this is a big, this is a multi time all star guy. It's why the Clippers have always been on my like just theoretically park the Anthony. I don't think Anthony Davis is a great fit there. I don't think that's where they're looking. But desperation makes people do crazy things. But I have no heart intel that the Bucks are actually interested in John Morant. His lack of jump shooting isn't a great fit with Giannis. We've seen Giannis plus undersized point guard not work as well as they expected it to. And those undersized point guards are at least them were elite jump shooters whereas Jaw is not. I did find interesting yesterday that Kevin Porter Jr. Came off the bench for the Bucks, by the way, after having after hearing Doc Rivers and Bucs higher ups all year say publicly, like, well, you know, we got to wait to judge our team before we until we see KPJ and Giannis play a whole bunch of games together. Now KPJ is coming off the bench and that naturally minimizes his minutes with Giannis a little bit. But look, the bottom line is this. Giannis right now I don't think is available. I don't think the Bucks are entertaining it at all. Only one person has the power to actually change that. And even so, there are a number of teams that are like, we're not going to make a small incremental move this season if it costs us the ability to chase Giannis down the line. I think Miami's in that group. Atlanta may be in that group. Yeah, the Lakers are in that group. The warriors are in that group. And that brings us to Giannis's preferred trade destination according to Shams Charania over the summer, the New York Knickerbockers. Holy smokes, a toxic atmosphere at the Garden last night as they got run off the court. Carl Towns, who put up the best counting stats on the team, got booed off the floor after the fans had seen enough of him just lurching around. Every cat drive is just arms are going here. He's kicking people in the nuts, he's falling over. It's like blah, blah. I've never seen someone so athletic look so lurchy. People in the bowels of the arena. I will not say who or what types of people. We were doing impressions of cat drives after the game last night and each of us was more ridiculous than the next. The Knicks are now 2 and 9 in their last 11 games. They are 25 and 18 for the season, which remarkably God bless the east. They are still third in the East. Now they are two games in the lost column out of seventh in the east in that 2 and 11 stretch. Now, Mr. Goldsberry, Jalen Brunson missed a couple games. Josh Hart missed a few games. Mitchell Robinson has always missed a few games. They have an in season tournament hangover. I guess there's all sorts of ways to explain this away. They are 25th in offense in that stretch and 28th in defense. They are the kings. For 1/8 of the NBA season, they have been the Sacramento Kings. They are getting destroyed at the foul line. They don't get to the line on offense and they're fouling the hell out of everybody. And they're starting lineup for the season. Now this ballyhooed High priced Bridges, Hart, Brunson and an Obi Towns. Would you care to guess their total point differential of that lineup while on the floor for the season to date?

A (37:28)

No, but I would say this before. I guess I will guess. They were great last year, right? This is one of the best lineups of the year until.

B (37:35)

Until the playoffs.

A (37:38)

But that, that group of five, which is, I think, where this conversation is going to go, Zach, they should have a very positive, very positive point differential.

B (37:47)

And they did for the first 15 to 20 games of the season. It is now after, what did I say? 43 games, that lineup total plus minus for the season, a flat zero after 43 games. Mikhail Bridges has not scored 20 points in a game. I'm sorry. Mikhail Bridges, five first round picks, has scored 20 points in a game once since December 23rd. Once in the last. He was absolutely invisible last night at Madison Square Garden. And the Towns thing. Look, I left Towns off my all star team and we're going to pick revised all star picks because. I'm sorry, Derek White. I made you a fun 12th all star pick. It was fun. It was great. You haven't made a shot since then. You're off my team. I love you, but I can't put you on. I'm not putting Towns on. I'm sorry. Like I. If you're getting booed off the floor by your own fans. If there's a constant sort of like existential dilemma about is he that helpful? How helpful is he? Is he a 4? Is he a 5? Why is the Cat Mitch thing not working? He's not shooting that great this year. He's missing a lot of open threes. The turnovers are up and just each one uglier than the next. And his defense is what it is. And that was always going to be the fatal flaw of this team. They're down to 18th in defense for this. 19th, rather in defense for the season amid this stretch. Look, they're better than this. They were my pick to make the finals before the season. The team that I saw last night was a broken, discombobulated, fractured team. That was a. Now you shooting luck. If both teams last night shoot their normal percentages, the Mavs are winning that game by 12 or 15 points. That's still a fucking problem for the Knicks. They looked awful. I don't know, man. What's. What's going on? What are you seeing?

A (39:35)

I'm seeing a lot. But I want to zero in on last night because I watched that game. I had just done a big piece On Cooper. So I've been following Cooper and it's big night for him. A rookie going to MSG like that. I always love to see that. Right. So I was always going to watch that game MLK Day, but dude, it was a disaster. And I think if we really zoom into what you watched in person, I watched on NBC last night. We saw it. I mean, the stat that jumped out to me, man, is 27 to 2 in fast break points in the first half. This five man lineup that you brought up, look, you can cut numbers any way you want and I spent a long time in the last 24 hours going through Knicks to try to explain this. What is going on? What is the, the actual problem here? And I didn't find anything in part because I think it's these dudes don't give a shit right now. That's the best Explanation I have. 27 to 2 in fast break points against the Dallas Mavericks, one of the worst offenses in the NBA. Just Max Christie, open, open, open, open. Just punishing you. Yeah, they had shooting luck, but they, they, they taunted, they taunted the gods by giving these open looks to guys in this league. You're going to get punished for that, dude. The thing I wanted to say is I know you were there, but if you watch like this, the sequence at the end of the first half on NBC, as the half wraps up, the buzzer sounds. Spike Lee walks over to Reggie Miller at the table and just stares like despondently at Reggie Miller. They cut to the NBC halftime crew, which is great, by the way. T. Mac says, hey, there's some friction in this locker room that has to be ironed out. Vince Carter said, it's effort. You're losing 27 to 2 on fast break points. And then Tmax says, if I don't like you, why am I playing hard? Am I invince? Somebody's gotta go. So the halftime reaction, yeah, the halftime reactions on the NBC halftime show were just like dudes who'd been there. Carmelo's at the desk by the way too. They, they saw something that was not analytical. They saw something that was vibes and they saw just a bad, bad chemistry there. And again, this five man lineup is supposed to be really good and they aren't right now. Zach, you can look at numbers you want, but I think it really shows up on defense in part because the effort's not there.

B (41:59)

Let's take a quick break and then we will re engage the great Knicks debate of 2026. I mean, I'll always go back to the the the. There's always these postseason obituary pieces that come out every year. The Brian Curtis calls them the now you tell us pieces. And Fred Katz and James Edwards wrote one for the Athletic, a great piece at the end of last year talking about citing sources in the locker room. And they cited a lot of things. But one of the things that stuck in my brain was discontent among some of the players with Cat not executing the game plan on defense, which is one thing that happens, but then also not seeming to under. I forget the verbiage they use, but something like not understanding the seriousness of doing that. And I'm just not sure that that. I mean if that's true and I have no reason to believe that story is not true. No one has really refuted it. The defense is still a mess now in this stretch. Fred Katz and I talked a couple weeks ago about how the Knicks were doing the ugly double of allowing a ton of shots at the basket and a ton of threes, which is just not going to be a recipe for sustained defensive success in these 11 games where they're 2 and 9. Their shot selection is allowed, has actually trended in directions you want it to trend more mid range shots, a little fewer threes, a little fewer shots at the rim. But the more I watch the Knicks, the more I'm like, is that kind of shot selection allowed? Just endemic to a team that has towns in the middle of it a lot. And it's not just towns like Brunson's obviously a liability too. But I think the Knicks, they have prioritized under Mike Brown protecting the paint at all costs. Now they're not protecting the rim very well, but they're at least, you know, they're scrunched in a lot, which has left a lot of shooters open. It makes for super long closeouts that you're vulnerable to blow bys on the drive. And I think that's probably compensating for like we don't have a lot of faith in what's at the center of our defense. So we've got to overload the center of our defense at the expense of the perimeter. And it's just, it just hasn't really worked well enough all season and their offense is still somehow fourth overall in the league and their recipe for being a real contender was like top three offense, 12th ish defense. For them to be 25th in offense over any stretch of 1112 games despite all the absences and all of that is alarming. Mike Brown said after the game. I was at his press conference because I really wanted to see what he said and what his tone was. He was not happy. He said he was actually happy with their offensive process for a lot of the game. Thought they missed a lot of good looks. They did miss a ton of threes. They just looked a little out of sync to me. They still the Brunson Cat two man game is still not weaponized to the degree that I think it should be. Last night that was partly the case because the Mavericks did the thing that like half of Knicks opponents do, which is put a wing Najee Marshall on Cat a lot and put their big somewhere else. They actually put DWight Powell on OGN and Obi a lot and the Knicks pivoted and like yeah, we'll use Ogn and Obi in ball screens to attack Dwight Powell. It didn't really work because Anunoby's not like a traditional pick and roll guy. That's not what he does. And Brunson, I said this a couple weeks ago like he's a first. He's an all star starter. He deserves to be. He's a first team all NBA candidate. He deserved to be. He is not the sort of quick hitting pick and roll distributor that can really unlock that kind of two man game, which is fine. They have a top five offense. It just, I think it is contributing to whatever chemistry issues are bubbling there. It's contributing to Kat every two or three weeks like clockwork. Being like, well I'm the one who's got to sacrifice the most. You know, I'm the guy who's sacrificing. And even when they have Cat and Mitchell Robinson on the floor at the same time, which is look, I like for them, those lineups have been kind of meh and then off the bench they're just super heavy on small ish guards Clarkson kolek, Shamit Deuce McBride who's having a phenomenal year. He's like got the best net rating on the team among their core players. It feels like there's going to be a move here and the consensus has always been they'll turn Yabu Selly and Daddy A and a couple second round picks into like a lower cost guy because they're right under the second apron. Who can play more minutes for them? I don't know what they're going to do. Cat has always been sort of the like if they ever actually trade for Giannis, Cat has to be in that trade. Yeah, I've always said I don't really know what's in that for Milwaukee. I'm going to just say this. Some team with a win now mandate. And I don't think it's going to be the Knicks because their win now mandate is as loud as can possibly be from the top. I think one of these teams that has had a problematic season, that has had chemistry issues, fit issues, something that has just sort of worn thin, is going to make a surprising trade at the deadline just to switch up their team a little bit. I don't think it's going to be the Knicks, but I'm not like, if they keep playing like this, I'm not closing the door on anything. And I had people from all over the league texting me last night. Different teams, teams that are not interested in this other than just as sort of fans of the league asking me like, would the Knicks ever just salary dump cat, like just to switch up their chemistry? I'm like, I don't know. I don't think, like, I don't think they do that. But if they keep playing like this, I don't think any question like that is a ridiculous question.

A (47:34)

Did you want to talk about the atmosphere in Madison Square Garden a little bit more? Because I think your audience would love to hear the scene because on television it was, it was bleak. But that place, I was, I was there, what, seven months ago for the Eastern Conference finals, and it was electric. And now here we are, January 19, 2026. Zach, what does it feel like in that building?

B (47:56)

Well, first of all, Knicks fans are first class, awesome fans. Yeah. And when, to the point that when the Knicks cut the lead to like 23 in the second half, the building legitimately came alive. They. They want this team to win. They want to love this team. They don't want to break it up and they have faith in it to the point that they were booed off the floor at halftime and booed off the floor at other parts of the game. And every time they had a speck of hope, the crowd really, truly came alive. Not in like a token, like, oh, there's some good natured pack of fans over here, some kids who are cheering because they really want the team to win. The thing came alive. But I was sitting next to somebody from the Mavericks on press row, a team official, and it was 16, 4. And I turned to this person, I said, they're going to start booing soon. And they were like a little surprised. Like, really? I'm like, I'm telling you, this crowd is like ready to turn on this team. And sure, Enough. The boos came and they came fast and they came weirdly specifically for Towns and it was not great. And the post game atmosphere was not great. Mike Brown was really mad. But I do think you have to step back a little bit and say it's a lot of talent on this team. The east stinks. They're still third. They have had all these mitigating factors that we've talked about, but they got to start playing better fast because we're two weeks away from the trade deadline and ill timed slumps can change things real fast for a team. And here's the last thing I'm going to say. I had Richard Jefferson on last Monday and I asked him, are we ready to say that the Wolves won the cat trade? And he sort of laughed me like, oh come on, you can't, you can't say that. And I said, well, I guess you could argue both teams won. But I think I said something like I've got the, I've got my gavel up. Like I'm ready to render judgment. I'm rendering judgment. The Timberwolves won. The cat trade Randall and DiVincenzo for Cat is a win for the Timberwolves. And I wonder if some people. I've never had this conversation with anybody from the Knicks. This is purely me speculating. I wonder if they regret it at all because DiVincenzo is really good and Randle is an all star level player. I think Randall's probably been better than Towns this year at almost half the price. I think the Wolves won the trade. Sorry.

A (50:14)

I saw Randall the other night in San Antonio in a marvelous game. Marvelous NBA product.

B (50:19)

Oh yeah, talk about that game. You were at the ant 55 point game.

A (50:22)

Yeah, people say, oh, Goldsboro, you complain about the product all the time. You know, too many threes this and that, like shut up, you know. Well, Saturday night, that's why I'm in. That was the best regular season game I've seen a very long time. Minnesota shorthanded, let me give that up.

B (50:36)

On a back to back to back.

A (50:38)

Against Houston and San Antonio. San Antonio pretty much at full strength. No Devin Vassell, but just a marvelous, marvelous basketball game. And Anthony Edwards played one of the finest games of his life. And anybody who's seen Anthony go for 30 or 40 knows it's a treat. But man, when he goes for 50 and he gets that swagger going and hitting jump shots and dudes faces and just talking shit, it is electric. And to see Victor Wembanyama not fold in that moment and do the opposite and start making shots with Ant man down the stretch. It was a ridiculous environment in San Antonio. I told some of my spurs friends that's the best game I've seen in that gym since I worked there. 2017, 2018, now that crowd was going crazy. But yeah, Julius Randle's a great player. Oh, and one other thing I told. I promised you I'd wedge this in. By the way, everybody go at Basketball Reference and look at Victor Wembanyama's page. I have bad news for the rest of the NBA. Victor Wembanyama is officially shooting 40% from three point the three point line. Zach Lowe. Victor Wemb is a 40% three point shooter. That's crazy and it's good news for spurs fans. But that said, can we go back to the Knicks?

B (51:55)

Yeah, of course. I'm not done with the Knicks.

A (51:57)

Towns might be the problem. Can you level defense with that guy at the center? By the way, I think he looks slow last night. This is one thing I was going to ask you about. He looks like he can't jump as much anymore. He's getting Dwight Powell hitting the nuts 17 different ways on his drives to the rim. I think both you and I are zeroing in on one part of this roster conversation.

B (52:22)

Okay? I do think Karl Anthony Towns is a magnet for scrutiny. His drives just look lurchy and silly and he falls all the time and he screams and yells for fouls and he waves his arm around and he's a minus on defense and all of that stuff together. He's just sort of like, it's not. I want to. I think he had like 24 and 12 last night in a game and, and led the team in scoring. And he's the one that got booed because it just looks, it just when it looks bad, it just looks, it looks bad. He had 22 and 18, five turnovers. That's part of what looks bad. He's. He's throwing the ball all over the place, falling down like. Is his defense a problem? Absolutely. We all knew it would be a problem. I mentioned Brunson's playmaking is, is just okay. But he's a star. He's not the problem. Mikhail Bridges. I mentioned his scoring. OG Anunoby had nine points last night. Sometimes he's super involved, sometimes he's not super involved. I wonder how he feels about that. By the way, Josh Hart had eight points last night and he got out Josh hearted by Naji Marshall who came out in that game and was like, I'm going to run the ball down your goddamn throats. What are you going to do about it? And the answer was nothing. The benches hit or missed. They've gotten zero from Yabu Seli the entire year. Mitchell Robinson plays, you know, two out of every four games or whatever it is. Clarkson played two minutes last night. You know, there's like a lot of other problems, but he is a magnet, for whatever reason, for criticism that is fair. And then sort of the volume of it and the focus on him solely becomes, I think, a little bit unfair. But there's no question. 25 and 18, 9th in net rating, 19th in defense, 2 and 11 in their 2 and 9 in their last 11 games. This season is officially a disappointment so far for a team whose owner went on the radio and said, not only do we have to make the Finals, we should win when we get there, as if he's totally unaware of what's going on in the Western Conference and who might be there in the end.

A (54:26)

I have a crazy stat. So, according to polymarket, the Knicks were big favorites to win the east right after the NBA Cup. The betters in that environment had established them as a 30. They had a 36% chance of coming out of the East. This is an ancient history, Zach. This is about three or four weeks ago. They're down to 19% on that platform to come out of the east behind now the Boston Celtics and the Detroit Pistons. So that's what we're talking about. We're talking about the team that was clearly the favorite in Vegas celebrating on that platform, the NBA Cup. Four weeks later, they're the third ranked team in the Eastern Conference according to a lot of bettors, to come out of the East. That's a pretty remarkable four week slide, three week slide, whatever. Since Marty supreme came out, if you want to say it that way.

B (55:19)

Wow, you're laying at the, at the feet of Chalamet.

A (55:22)

Oh, yeah, he's in that, isn't he?

B (55:24)

Yeah.

A (55:24)

I mean, I could have done Stiller there, but I feel like Chalamet had the movie come out around that time, so. But no jokes. The Knicks are still one of the more, if not the most talented team in the Eastern Conference. But dude, look at their defense, look at their effort. Look at what the, what the old heads at the desk said about them last night. Do they give a shit enough to do what they need to do on defense to win the Eastern Conference?

B (55:56)

Well, it also, it impacts the openness of the east, impacts some of my other big trade questions, which are going to bounce rapid fire around some of these. We've done the Giannis stuff already. You know, Detroit has long stood to me as one of the more fascinating teams at Detroit deadline because they have big salaries that are, I don't want to say expendable, but easily movable and you could justify moving them for better players pretty easily. All their draft assets, all that stuff. And they clearly do not have enough shooting to like really, really compete for a championship. Which if you're 31 and 10, I don't really care how bad your conference is or how ahead of schedule you are with your own team. If you're, if you have a.750 winning percentage, you should be competing for a championship. And they clearly need a dose of shooting and offensive creativity and whether it's shooting plus a secondary ball handler to take pressure off Cade, whatever it is. And you know, Markkanen was the fantasy trade for them by me, by Michael Pina, by a million other people for a long time. It appears the Jazz are just not going to entertain that. And we've talked about that and then we've mentioned other names, Michael Porter Jr. Trey Murphy III, blah, blah. And everyone around the league has told me all along most, almost everyone I talked to expects Detroit to do either either to do nothing or to do something small and approach this playoffs even though they were in the playoffs last year as sort of a proving ground for let's see what we learn about this nucleus with some pressure on them, with some expectations on them in the postseason hot house and then address it after the season. So maybe a small move, maybe no move. I've always been the whole season I've been on the like they should go for it. The east is there for the taking if they, they're just not good enough to, to win the Finals if they actually get there. I'm starting to wonder if the east is so bad and they're so good as presently constituted that doing nothing is actually, or doing something small is actually the right course of action for them. Because they can clearly make the Finals as is. They have no hope against a healthy Thunder, healthy Nuggets, healthy spurs, whatever. I mean, I think they'd against the Spurs, I think they'd compete because they're just so tough and so physical and their defense is so good. But like they're 31 and 10 and they can absolutely make the Finals as is. Maybe they'll end up doing nothing and just sort of saving their chips for something down the line.

A (58:32)

Yeah, if they make a move, they need a Second scorer and a shooter. Somebody like in a defensive playoff series where, where a team just really points all their weapons at this pick and roll between Cade and Duran and slows it down. Like who's the, who's the ball flying to there and who's going to make that play? Because as much as I like Tobias Harris or Duncan Robinson, I just don't think those guys are going to make huge plays and score like 26 in a game 5 or something like that. So I could see them shopping around to try to get one of these players. Maybe a Jeremy Grant or an mpj, even former Piston.

B (59:11)

Former Piston Jeremy, that's right.

A (59:13)

But I could see them trying to, to get it because they're leading three point shooter right now and this is clear weakness for their offense and this is a defensive juggernaut. But if they did anything that, that's where I'd see it. The second score, the three point shooter. Who can they get if they get somebody on a good bargain? I could see him doing it. I could also just see him following your logic. Hey man, we're badasses. We're the, we're the toughest team in this thing. We're the best defense in the east and that's going to be our, our, our, our, our brand going through the playoffs. Come and take it. Come and beat our defense. This is our group. But yeah, I think the Pistons deserve more attention than they're getting for, for being a real threat to come out of the Eastern Conference and I'm glad we're talking about them.

B (59:57)

Well, they're going to be the number one seed because there's six games up, so they're going to have that. But like logic would, this is why I'm still, I still. If you actually force me to make a yes or no call, are they going to make a trade or stamp Pat? I think they're going to, I would say, make a trade. I don't think it's going to be a big trade, but there's just too many logical things pointing in the direction of even a small upgrade. To wit, Tobias Harris is on a $26 million expiring contract. He's a cultural centerpiece for them. He has not played all that much or all that well this season. Duncan Robinson is their best outside shooter. Certain matchups are going to be problematic for him in the postseason carousel. Vert has largely been disappointing. Jaden Ivy feels like a little bit of both a lost soul and a semi attractive trade ship to a team that might be able to Rehabilitate him. Needs an extra ball handler, whatever. And they just have a lot of guys like Sasser is not playing at all. Reed's not playing at all. Clinton's not playing at all. Like there's someone else I'm forgetting that's sort of fallen. Jenkins on a two way is is barely playing now. They just feel ripe for something. But they are absolutely correct to say why do we need to do anything we can make the finals and just use it as a learning experience. Boston is another one. All the rumblings around the league is that Boston is now going to buy and I don't know how that works. I don't know if they can buy and cut their tax bill at the same time. The obvious place for them to buy would be up front where they could use another legit frontcourt player. But this team is clearly really good. Sam Houser's made about 400 three pointers in the last three games. Jalen Brown is having a majestic season. Tatum I think is is going to come back at some point and they have a lot of assets to play with. The question is can they buy and cut money and can they buy. Does that involve an Forney Simons going out because he's kind of quietly in the last month after clearly not being super trusted by Missoula to be a heavy minutes part of the rotation. He's settled into like a real bench spark plug role for them and closed like close some games too.

A (62:16)

Yeah, he's a great player and they're to me they're the most interesting team because I didn't think any of us thought they'd be here and right now they are among the favorites to come out of the east without Jason Tatum. They have a clear need up front in my opinion. Just on the glass again we talk about playoff matchups as good as Keda and Garza can be like the, the.

B (62:36)

That's.

A (62:36)

That's a weakness for them and it can't be overstated.

B (62:40)

Those are the only two traditional big men in their rotation. Yeah, those two guys, that's it. Like they have other guys that play power forward like Hugo Gonzalez and even Hauser, Jalen Brown. But like they have two big guys to play and those are them and.

A (62:55)

I think they could upgrade and I mentioned it I think with Bill but like a gaffer or a type player like that on, on a team that's is trying to shed salary and, and they' are going to be sort of plug and play bigs out there and dude, I think Boston being a Buyer is, is just it makes a lot of sense and I see I could see a path for them to get very good. They're already very good. Even better if they just bolster that front court a little bit.

B (63:21)

Zach, you mentioned gaffer in this jot my memory. There's been a lot of posturing from the Mavericks and I every it's everything is posturing now. Yeah, that you know, you I think it's been in the media a little bit like Patrick Dumont, you know he wants to see Anthony Davis and Kyrie Irving and Cooper Flagg altogether and if we don't get a good offer for Anthony Davis, we'll just hold on to him. I think there's probably some truth to that and I don't know that there's a good offer for Anthony Davis currently injured on a somewhat vague timetable that would really whet their appetite. So I think there's some truth to that. My I but I do think the Mavericks, if they had their druthers would just wipe their hands of the whole LUCA trade as soon as possible. Get alpha Anthony Davis for whatever value they can get. Get off a gaffer for whatever value they can get. And really I think that would be their preferred outcome. Now they're not going to do it for your dead money and nothing else. I think they'd like like if they could trade him. I'm just making this up. If they could trade him to Toronto and they'd have to take Pertle and whatever Barrett, whatever salary filler you want. Although Barrett to me is too good to just be salary filler and a pick or two. Like you've got to give us picks because Pearl's contract goes on for 7,000 years. I think they would probably do something like that but I don't know that that deal exists. But that's just my Dallas gut feeling at this point.

A (64:47)

And the other thing, I mentioned it on Bill's show too, but just Dallas having a complete lack of a clear leader in their in their front office right now, having co interim GMs having Jason Kidd reportedly being one of the more important voices in the organization. Then you have Mark Cuban back in the fold and Dumont and as Bill pointed out, probably the most gun shy organization right now with trades after licking their wounds for the last 11 months since trading Luka Doncic. So yeah, Dallas is a hard, hard one to figure out too, Zach, just because the lack of sort of there's no clear architect making a blueprint here. I don't know who's in charge of that Blueprint, let alone making the calls and making the making the call to make a deal with somebody as big as Anthony Davis, let alone other players. PJ Washington, Daniel Gafford, other pieces that other teams could see being very useful down the stretch. For that reason, I'm out on the Dallas Mavericks being very active at the trade deadlines.

B (65:51)

Actually, I like it. I don't watch Shark Tank anymore, but I had a Shark Tank phase and Kevin O' Leary was the meanest one. Co star of Marty supreme, by the way. Mr. Wonderful. But the most entertaining was always when someone really just pissed off Mark, like someone said something in their pitch that he just found as a business person or a human offensive and annoying and he would just be like, you suck. Here are all the reasons you suck and I don't even want to hear from you anymore. Speaking of suck, we should touch briefly on the Lakers, who are down to six in the west with a negative point differential. Reeves has been hurt and it's very clear that they need Reeves to just sort. He just brings a vigor and a pace to their team that without him they are just stuck in mud on. I mean defensively they're awful. Transition, they're awful. Rebounding, they're awful. There's minimal effort being made across the board. Offensively they're slow, they're turning the ball over, which is not a thing that Luca teams normally do. His turnovers have been sort of uncharacteristically wonky. He and LeBron have like negative chemistry together right now. On offense they don't. It just, it's just, it just isn't working. And it'll work better when Reeves comes back and everyone is curious of like what are the Lakers going to do. I bet the Lakers either do nothing or do something small that does not cost them a first round pick. So if they can steal a Keon Ellis for two seconds or something, I could see that because they're in a very clear spot of. We have one pick to trade right now. Could we get Andrew Wiggins? Maybe could we get a DeAndre hunter who I think is. I don't know if he's available available, but what Jalen Tyson has done in Cleveland has really changed the game and DeAndre Hunter has not had a good season. Yeah, maybe we could, we could get into those conversations if they're happening. Does that do anything for us? Doesn't make us contenders. Probably not. And in the off season we can trade three first round picks. Yeah, our cap sheet clears up. Assuming even, even if we resign Reeves Which I think they would like to do better not lowball them. If they lowball him, it's going to get interesting, I'll tell you that. And just sort of recalibrate then I think that's. And just then lebron either retires or is I don't think coming back to the Lakers, at least on an expensive deal. I will say I have the Lakers. Just. I'm flagging this Lakers play at Cleveland on January 28th. It's coming up soon. I'm flagging that. Just want to see what his, what his comments are around that game. That's interesting but I just, I. They're really a tough like for a team that has this much star talent. They were in the top five of my league pass rankings with Mahoney. They're really not fun to watch at all. It's. It's like a slog.

A (68:44)

It's not the Showtime Lakers, it's the complain time Lakers I think. I don't know how you would say it but yeah, I don't love watching them and I, I think they're sort of in purgatory. We should have a group of teams that are just like let's get to the off season and really see what's going on here. They would be on that list because yeah, they're on two timelines. They have no defense, they have very little front court talent. Ayton, not really Jackson, Hayes, you know, they need to build this team around Luca. And I'd also bring up the fact that they've recently had an ownership transition and they're sort of in leadership purgatory here too. Would the new ownership group want to make big changes or let the architect Rob Pelinka make big changes at this exact moment to try to win now? So I think it's fair to ask that question. I think if I were there, I would say let's just get through this year. This is not a terrible team. JJ is going to have a heart attack probably by game 70. But we're going to get through this and really use our off season. By the way, remain a great free agent destination unlike any other team in the NBA. They have access to a team building tool in the off season that not many teams have. I just can't see them making a big move this, this season in. In season.

B (70:05)

Zach, my last Lakers observation, the Luka pick and roll is always going to be a good play for them. Yeah, the chemistry around it is not right. Not like the way it was in Dallas. It's not as smooth the options aren't as clear. Some of his trademark passes are happening less frequently. It's slow, it's sloggy. I think some of their best offense comes when either he or LeBron go at the smallest guy on the other team. So against Toronto, which they won that game eight and shot 10 for 10, they ran a lot of cross screens and screening action to get quickly onto Luka. And I like their offense better when they work inside out like that, using their. Like their. Their recipe is like, we're big. I mean, they're like preposterously big and slow. Some of these lineups, they're like, drew, Timmy's involved all of a sudden. Let's just be big and be slow and play bully ball inside out. Even if that means we have to use Marcus Smart more to, like, trigger the offense. Because the small guy is on him now. The small guy will be on Reeves when he comes back. That's my last observation. Couple other rapid fire things. I'm, I'm. I'm taking LaMelo Ball off the table. If I'm Charlotte, I want to. I want to see this through. I've always been one of the rare LaMelo believers. Now every time I get excited, he does something crazy and I'm like, oh, my God, did you see that? They're lost to the Pacers a couple weeks ago.

A (71:28)

Yeah.

B (71:29)

So they're up three with a minute and five seconds left at home. They win a jump ball. Eric Collins loses his mind that they've won the jump ball. The Tall Hornets won the jump ball. LaMelo streaks up the court again, up three with a minute left. Just fucking calm down. Streaks up the left side of the court. Tosses with three seconds have elapsed. Tosses an alley oop to Moussa Diabate, who is covered. The alley oop is five feet to the left. Turnover. The Charlotte broadcast, and every broadcast is a little bit of a cheerleading broadcast. Eric Collins and Dell Curry go silent for like, six seconds. They could not believe the lack of judgment, the lack of time, score, situational judgment that their franchise point guard has shown in a game. They're up by three. And then Dell Curry, after like five seconds of silence, just goes, oh, my. And they lose the game. I'm still keeping. Here's the stat of the day. You ready?

A (72:31)

Yeah.

B (72:32)

Now, part of this is they beat Utah by 5,000 points last week. They are now plus 63 in 294 minutes. With Miller, who's coming along, and LaMelo and Kipple on the floor.

A (72:46)

Yeah.

B (72:47)

And Miller is starting to do the thing that he has to do, which is if they want to optimize these pairings of perimeter guys in two man games and staggered screens and Spain action. Can he bully smaller guys a little bit and can he blow by bigger guys a little bit. He's like the switch attacker and he's been doing that a little bit more lately. Musa Diabate is awesome. I love that dude. I think he's probably not a starter, but he's a really useful player. I like what I'm seeing out of Charlotte. Their total point differential for the season is exactly zero despite their 16 and 27 record. I'm taking them off the table. Kurt Goldsberry. You're not getting. You're not getting Lamello Ball for me unless you give me some real stuff. I'm certainly. If you give me like a lot of stuff, I'll think about it. But I'm not dumping him just to dump him and reset the franchise. I'm not doing it.

A (73:31)

Send them to Golden State. Hey, that. Maybe that's how this should end. Get. Get Stephen Curry back in Charlotte. Don't aggregate me. That's the dumbest idea of the day. But Charlotte. The stat of the day for me with the Charlotte Hornets is what you probably know what I'm about to say. They have the best offense in the NBA over the last 15 games. They are surging on offense. To your point, we've always known that Lamelo Ball had more talent in his little finger offensively than just about any other player in this league. But Brandon Miller and Con Knippel play great together. I talked to one of their assistant coaches a couple weeks ago and they were just raving about how smart those guys are together and how they feel like they have a real strong offensive identity. Now. Charles Lee's wanted to make this team sort of the JV Celtics with the the 5 out tons of threes approach for years they just didn't have the talent. Well, Brandon Miller and Con Knipple are the talent and I think it's starting to click. They're averaging 124.3 per 100 again, number one in the NBA by leaps and bounds over the last 15 games. And as you like to say, that's more than a fifth or a sixth of the NBA season somewhere in there. And that's. That's good. That's an identity. Zach Lowe. And we talk about the vacuum in the Eastern Conference. Well, I think Charlotte. Charlotte's onto something here. An offensive identity like Detroit might be the Defensive juggernaut. Well this could be the future offensive juggernaut led by Lamelo Knipple and and Brandon Miller.

B (75:07)

A couple other rapid fire things. I'm not by the way. LaMelo plus 4 per hundred possessions with LaMelo on the floor minus 3 per 100 possessions with the Melo on the bench. Offense is 10 points better with him on the floor. Say what you will, he is an engine of efficient offense and has been his entire career. I'm. You know what I'm tired of Kurt Goldsberry?

A (75:26)

What are you tired of Lowry?

B (75:28)

Markkanen is legitimately ill. He's under the weather right now from what I've heard. Legitimately under the weather. This is the fourth year for him in Utah and every single one of those years has either been a second half. We're pulling the plug to try to help our draft pick and we fucked up the first half by being too good or we're just pulling the plug from day one or day game 20. Like this is a. When does he just. This is like a waste of a great player. He's not like a legendary player. He's a one time all star in the East. He'd probably be a three time all star by now but he's in the west and he had his chances in the East. That didn't work. I just like they said they weren't going to do this right? Like they had a whole big thing about where you're not going to see what we saw last year and now everyone is sick and injured in every game. Particularly when they're playing anybody in the range. I understand they're only doing what the NBA incentive structure says they should do. Yeah, just like it's been a long time. They are decent when Larry Markkanen's on the floor. Flat out decent. It's been a long time since again too decent. Well, it's been a long time since we've seen a player in his prime. Wait, have his have so many seasons of his prime wasted like this? I'm getting tired of it though.

A (76:44)

This is the right take and I think the NBA has a real issue with some of the players some of the time just not playing basketball games. And I'm not the first one to say that, but Mark might be the face of this and even if you're saying hey this right now, what we're seeing right now isn't, isn't a good example of that effect. It has been too long. Like this guy's complete. Almost a huge chunk of his prime has been spent in a basketball environment that's not trying its best to win basketball games. That's, that's not great. And I should say there's only one team with a better offense in the last 15 games than the Charlotte Hornets. Act lower. It's whoever's playing the Utah Jazz. This defense is giving up more points per possession than any of the great offenses are scoring. And I watched a little bit of their spurs game on MLK Day and it's just, it's really easy to score on these guys. They just don't, they don't have the best interest of their fan base at least this year. And it doesn't look like they're trying to win basketball games. I think that's called tanking.

B (77:47)

They're going to try next year, right? They're going to keep this pick come hell or high water that they owe. They're going to have cap space, they're going to have Markkanen, they're going to have Kessler back who's an anchor of their defense and was playing awesome for the year and they're going to use their cap space on somebody good and they're going to come out and say we'll be the Suns. We'll be a competitive good team. That's the selling point for Lyra Market that may well be like, that's absolutely plausible. Keonte George has made a huge leap. They have the ingredients of a team that could be decent next year. I'm just, it just sucks that this guy's had to wait like this.

A (78:18)

Yeah, it's great for so long.

B (78:19)

And he made choices too. He signed an extension that was timed to make him untradeable last year. Although I get it. Two other rapid fire things. New Orleans Pelicans. I forgot to make fun of them last week for Chris Haynes Tweet being like, oh, they're not trading anybody. They're closed for business a month before the trade deadline. Look, anytime you're 10 and 35, you just gotta stamp hat. You can't, you can't. Yeah, don't, don't take any calls. Don't consider anything. Everything's going great. And injuries. J Dubs out for a couple weeks with the Thunder. Kawhi, Is it happening again? This is out a little bit with this knee and I don't know, I think they used inflammation or irritation or something. I hope it's nothing serious. Don't sleep on Stephen Adams sprained ankle and he said if he has to miss time he's been sensational and garland Out a couple weeks with another foot injury. It's a different foot. And I don't. Again, I mentioned before, these win now teams, particularly in the east, that are just seem to be stuck in a series of unfavorable patterns. One of them will do something surprising either at the trade deadline or in the off season. Cleveland is, I think, again, more off season because they are so win now. We won 64 games and Orlando is the other one where Franz just came back. Suggs is hurt. They've barely been able to see their team, their full team. You know, they're 23 and 19. They're fine. They're sixth. I'm just, you know, they have Isaac's $15 million expiring contract. Wendell Carter's junior is only so, so fit at center. The offense is like. I'm just, I'm keeping an eye on it.

A (79:58)

What's your CavsCon level? I told your listeners, next time I was on your show, I would ask you what, what level of Cavscon?

B (80:04)

We're. We're on Capscon 3. We're going to stabilize at 3 because Jalen Tyson is a real guy who may just be their starting three at this point because Shrew says is coming back. Whenever he comes back, Hunter's coming off the bench. That situation seems a little fraught. So we're at CavsCon 3. If we were in the west with this record and this team performing like this, we'd be at CavsCon 2, maybe more. CavsCop 3, can we take a very quick break and react to the All Star selection?

A (80:36)

Close your eyes. Exhale. Feel your body relax and let go of whatever you're carrying today. Well, I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts in time for this class. I got them delivered free from 1-800-contacts.

B (80:50)

Oh, my gosh, they're so fast.

A (80:52)

And breathe. Oh, sorry.

B (80:54)

I almost couldn't breathe when I saw.

A (80:56)

The discount they gave me on my first order.

B (80:58)

Oh. Oh, sorry.

A (80:59)

Namaste.

B (81:00)

Visit 1-800-contacts.com today to save on your first order. 1-800-contacts. All right. The all Star starters were released last night. I said you can pick your reserves. Let's start in the East. Cade, Brunson, Brown, Maxi, Giannis. There were six candidates. Donovan Mitchell's the odd man out. He's going to make the team. Who cares? You have any? Do you have your reserves ready for the East?

A (81:27)

I do.

B (81:29)

Just go here.

A (81:30)

I start with Donovan Mitchell, who I actually thought had a really good case to be a starter, and then there's a giant gap. So I think for me, it came down to Brunson or Mitchell for that last spot as a starter. I went, Mitchell. I'm not mad at Brunson getting that. That slot after the NBA cup or whatever you want to say. I think you have to put Kat, Jalen Johnson in there. Those are pretty easy, Zach. And then it starts to get pretty sticky for me. But I go, Brandon Ingram, Norman Powell for the Miami rep. Mpj, who I think you have to put in there. And then I had one player from Orlando. Which one do you think I chose?

B (82:08)

Stuff. The Magic Dragon.

A (82:12)

Oh, I mean, yeah, I took Franz.

B (82:16)

I think that's just a games played issue for me. He's been better than Paolo and it's been pretty demonstrable.

A (82:22)

Yeah. Then the nerds definitely come down on. On team Franz there.

B (82:26)

It's not nerds.

A (82:27)

He's just been mellow ball edge. Case didn't make it. Siakam. The team's not winning enough.

B (82:34)

But yeah, here I revised my picks because you know what? I have a right to revise my picks after time has passed and now the starters are picked. So now I get to do it again. Donovan Mitchell, Scotty Barnes. Did you not have Scotty Barnes?

A (82:47)

I took Ingram over Barnes, but I can. I can, I can. I can listen to your case.

B (82:51)

I'll fight you on that.

A (82:53)

Yeah, that's fine.

B (82:54)

Donovan Mitchell, Scotty Barnes, Jalen Johnson, Michael Porter Jr. Jalen Duran, Norm Powell keeping the Heat offensive float by himself. And then my 12th spot. I kind of. I had Mahoney on a couple weeks ago and I took Derek White, who was on a heater at that point. I'm like, I just want to give him a career achievement award for being awesome. And since then, he's been in a hellacious shooting slump. I've got to move him out, but everyone else leaves me cold. The Magic guys. Bam. I love Bam. I have never would argue against Bam being on an all star team. He's a winner, but he just has not had a good offensive. No other guys we can mention. I'm putting Pascal Siakam on despite the. He's played like a legit. He's playing real basketball every single night on both ends of the floor. I'm giving him the honor. Okay. West starters were Luka Jokic, SGA Wemby and Curry. Ant, I think, was like the sixth starter there. He's a lock to make it. Who are your. Who are your. Now it gets a little dicier who are your seven reserves?

A (83:57)

Well, let's just say the Western conversation is a lot harder than the Eastern one. You get to a lot of really good names here. Jamal Murray's at the top of my list. I think. He. He. It's. It's shocking to me he hasn't been an All Star before. And so let's get that corrected. And then Ant, those are the two that were like, no brainers. Ant man, the players thought he was more deserving of Wemby. I disagree. Regardless, Ant Man's got to be there. He is a classic NBA All Star. I have two Rockets in my reserves, both Shangoon and Durant. And then it gets real tough. But I'm one of the people that says, I look at the standings and I'm like, man, the Thunder deserved two All Stars. So I go chat, Chet's there. I say, the Suns deserve an All Star. That's gotta be book. And then, dude, It's Kawhi hardener. LeBron. And can I.

B (84:53)

Can I give you another name?

A (84:54)

Yeah.

B (84:55)

Denny Abdia is out for you.

A (84:58)

He's out for me because, I mean, look, you get to seven real fast here, dude. If Danny Odia was. What did you just say? You just said something about the Eastern. If the Cavs were in the west, you'd be at Cavs, Khan, Juan or whatever. Yeah, if Denny Advia were in the east, he'd be an All Star. I'm sorry, this is just the Western Conference. I'm not saying I took Kawhi Leonard because, look, I have to do this analytically. Culturally, there's going to be a play for LeBron James, but analytically, the case is for Kawhi Leonard. He's simply been a better basketball player than LeBron James this year. That's a fact.

B (85:33)

Oh, that's not even like. That's. There's no counter argument to that.

A (85:36)

Isn't that what we're supposed to be doing?

B (85:38)

So we had six of the seven the same, and I had Ant, Durant, Shingoon, Jamal Murray. I've had Abdia the whole time, and I know their record is around 500, but they're plus with him on the floor and getting shellacked with him off the floor. I completely agree with you on Chet Holmgren. I saw Bill left him off in favor of Randall. I think I completely disagree with that. And I understand that Chet is like a very secondary scorer whose offense can come and go. He's averaging 18 points a game. He's shooting 58%, 38% on threes, 66% on twos. And he has been, if not the best rim protector in the entire league, at least number two behind Wemby, whose rim protection is sort of all encompassing. Wemby is like the, like, like I remember when I voted Kawhi MVP in, in 2017, you know, part of my rationale was always like, well, defense is half the game. And I got pushback for that that I actually learned from. And I think was right that well, at the superstar level, defense can't really be half the game because a superstar on offense can impact every possession, whereas I can steer my offense away from Kawhi Leonard on defense. And there's truth to that. Wemby's like the exception to that rule. There's no steering away from him on defense. But Chad has been unbelievable. I just think he, he has to be in. And that left me my last spot. I initially had. I initially had Kawhi, who's been sensational when he plays. No problem with that. He's hurt again. I'm gonna, I'm gonna give it to Booker, just rock solid both ends of the floor. Not shooting as well as I'd hope, but does everything well. He's always available. And apologies to all those guys I mentioned, plus Gobert and Randall. Gobert has been quietly sensational on both ends of the floor. I mean, he is, he's defending about as well as he ever has. He is the king. You know what he's the king of? Maybe with Wemby staying down, he's. He like, he doesn't jump until he absolutely has to jump. And even then, if you're an okay guard taking a 12 foot floater, he's not going to jump because the rebound's more important. And by not jumping, he stalls everything out because people want him to jump and get out of the way and he doesn't do it. Let's talk about LeBron. I read Dave McMenamins snippet in ESPN's All Star reaction, lobbying for LeBron to get picked to the All Star Game. And I believe he will get picked by the league. I've actually, you know what? There was enough discontent with how he handled All Star last year, scratching at the last minute. And there is no certainty yet on whether he's retiring. If there's ever going to be any certainty, I don't know. If there were, I think Adam Silver would absolutely name him to the team. If the coaches don't and he might, I'm going to predict he does anyway, regardless. But Dave in that piece said something like, is LeBron one of the 12 best American players? Yes. Just definitively, Yes. I think that's just not true anymore. Do you want to just name American players?

A (88:46)

You get to 12 real fast. Yeah, go ahead, Cade.

B (88:50)

I'm just going through all star rosters right now. That's where I'm starting. Cade Brunson, Jalen Brown, Maxi all been better than LeBron this season. LeBron's played 24 games. His defense is what you'd expect from a 41 year old. Donovan Mitchell's been better. Scotty Barnes has been better. Jalen Johnson has been better. That's 7. Stephen Curry's been better.

A (89:12)

8.

B (89:13)

Ant's been better. 9. Durant's been better. 10. I think probably Booker has been better. That's 11. I think chat's been better. That's 12. We haven't even gotten to Kawhi. This is like maximum, giving LeBron the benefit of the doubt. Maximum, like, well, if we're talking about for one game, game seven of the finals, like maximum, we're giving him the benefit of that. We're not even mentioning Kawhi, Harden, Reeves, Jimmy Butler, Julius Randle, like Norm Powell, Jaren Jackson Jr. Bam. J Dub's been hurt the whole year. Michael Porter junior's been outstanding. Like, I don't think. It's just, I don't think you can come out and definitively say, first of all, I don't know why 12 matters, because we're getting 16American players.

A (89:53)

Yeah. I don't understand it.

B (89:54)

But he, I don't think he's been one of the 12 best American players this year. I actually don't even think that's arguable.

A (90:00)

Yeah, I don't think it's close. That said, the NBA All Star Game needs LeBron James.

B (90:06)

He should be in the game.

A (90:07)

Yeah. Yeah.

B (90:08)

But let's be honest about how he's gonna make it.

A (90:11)

Yeah, let's be honest about it. Right. Merit based. He's, he's not there. He's, he's, he's a four top four player in Los Angeles in this conversation. Maybe so. Dude, it's tough. And I want to give you a platform here for your listeners because you texted me a startling stat about All Star votes last night.

B (90:31)

I love the player votes, the players. Some take it very seriously and some apparently do not.

A (90:38)

Yeah. So which of the player voting results did you want to bring up first?

B (90:44)

I gotta get.

A (90:45)

There's one that jumps off the page.

B (90:47)

Here we go.

A (90:50)

While you're setting this up, While you're setting this up, one of the classic political science quotes of all time is the best argument against Democracy is a 30 second conversation with an average voter.

B (91:03)

Let's just steer clear of get me fired up. Okay I just enjoyed the so they organized it Player Rank Media Rank Fan Rank I enjoyed that the the players ranked Luca sixth which was I thought was very interesting in the Western Conference voting. Steph was actually two in the Western Conference voting and and KD were four and five both over Luca. I found that interesting and that look the rankings there's like a bunch of people tied for spots but it just like Sengun 32nd among players in player voting Here are some of the players Sengun is behind.

A (91:40)

Wait, say it again 32nd.

B (91:43)

He's 32nd player ranked 32 here's here are some of the players he's behind. Julius Randle 13th Fine Ja Morant 27th Jaden McDaniels 21st Dylan Brooks 17th Stefan Castle 13th Are the Spurs ballot stuffing here?

A (92:01)

Nothing wrong with that one.

B (92:03)

Dante DiVincenzo 17th Love Dante. Sure. I mean just like on and on. What did Shen Goon do to all these people?

A (92:12)

I don't know but that is a stunning result. Sengun who both of us had clearly in our our reserves category meaning top 12. Right.

B (92:19)

So Christian Brown was 27th. He hasn't played much in like a month and a half.

A (92:25)

It is it's a stunning result from the the players. But yeah, for those interested it is a fascinating thing to review these PDF that summarize where the players had guys ranked, where the fans and where the media had them ranked. Generally speaking the fans and the media are pretty aligned but the players can go rogue here and, and, and, and, and Shengoon being that low. What is it? 37. Damn.

B (92:49)

32. 32. It is interesting the the players had LeBron 8th which is higher than he should be based on the season he's had. They had him above Booker for instance, and above Abdia. I wonder if that indicates that the coaches might actually put him on as a reserve. So Adam Silver doesn't face this dilemma. But Kurt Goldsberry, what else we got from you? What do you want to promote?

A (93:15)

Well, I just put a big Cooper flag piece out that I'm really happy with. Thanks to my friends at the ringer we put that out. I think Cooper has played great basketball and Dallas is a very interesting team but but other than that, just really looking forward to the trade deadline. The stuff we talked about Zach, I think it's going to be a really interesting second half of the NBA season.

B (93:36)

Kurt Goldsberry on pods in writing second to none has really revolutionized the way we think and talk and look about look at basketball. Thank you for your time. I do not take it for granted that you sit here and listen to me rant and ran back at me for this long.

A (93:52)

Man.

B (93:52)

You're the man.

A (93:54)

Thank you Zach.

B (93:56)

That'S it for the Zach Lowe show on a Tuesday. We will be back later this week as usual with another episode. Thanks to the great Kurt Goldsberry for lending us his time and his invaluable insight. Thanks to Mike, Billy and Jonathan on production. Thanks to you for listening to and or watching the Zach Lowe Show. We will see you later this week. Must be 21 or over in President elect state states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over in President D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem called 1-800- gambler or visit rg-help.com call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit MDG in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New.