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- [00:00]
Zach Lowe
This episode is brought to you by State Farm. The best passers see every angle of the floor to make the perfect assist. And State Farm is no different. They know the game inside and out and look at every angle to help set you up with a plan that fits your life and budget. Get the coverage that's right for you. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state. This episode is brought to you by new era the 90s weren't just a decade, they were a moment. And now it's back. Introducing the new era. NBA Hardwood Classics 90s edition. Bringing back the golden era of basketball with iconic teams like the Bulls, the Rockets, the spurs, the Suns, the Pistons. Yeah, that's the 90s. That could be the teal horse Pistons. The Hornets are the classic 90s team. The original teal stuff. The Hornet buzzing around any old school Bulls, Warriors. That's the kind of stuff that I love. That's kind of stuff. NBA Jam kind of stuff. That's what we're talking about. Plus 90s all star games caps complete with host team side patches for that authentic throwback feel. Available in a wide range of fitted and adjustable styles. Visit newera cap.comringer to shop now and use the one time code Ringer for 20% off your first order. Coming up on the Zach Low Show. I need a drink. I don't smoke. I might need a cigarette. What a game in San Antonio. A game of runs. A game where it looked like despite falling behind multiple times, despite Miles McBride and Mikhail Bridges carrying the Knicks in a stretch when Cat was on the bench in foul trouble. And Jaylen Brown. Jaylen Brunson. Jaylen Brown J. My brain is broken. We're resting that. The Knicks were just going to rest control of the series and and Fox went crazy and Wemby did some stuff and then it came down to the end of regulation. Spurs take the lead, Knicks tie it up. Then some crazy stuff happens. The turnover, a missed free throw, Wemby misses two jumpers. There is a lot to talk about, but first and foremost the New York Knicks are 14 and 2 in the playoffs, have won 13 consecutive games and are on one of the most magical, I don't even know what other word to use runs in the history of professional sports and are two wins away from their first title in 53 years. The end of the game was nuts. John Krasinski from the Athletic is Here we go. Blow by blow through the big plays in the game. The larger trends in the Game Cats outrageous. First half, Wemby responding to the critics in the second half, the Knicks surviving a a bad Jalen Brunson shooting game. And yet, of course, he makes the tying jumper and the winning free throw. And they escape in the end with the Wemby jumper. Whoo. What a series. We talk about what the spurs can do to get back into it in Madison Square Garden. We just talk about a lot of stuff. It was an incredible game. I hope you enjoy it. And that's all coming up on the Zach Glow Show. Welcome to the Zach Lowe Show. Holy, what a basketball game in San Antonio. A game of runs. A game where it felt like the Knicks had solved San Antonio in two critical stretches, the last of which was when Cat picked up his fourth foul after playing like one of the best hats of his entire career. They were pulling away. Victor Wembanyama was yelling in the huddle. And suddenly behind de' Aaron Fox making some buckets. Victor Wembanyama playing with force. A missed Brunson layup that became a goaltend at the other end on a Dylan Harper layup. And then an and one dunk by Victor Wembanyama. The spurs stormed into the lead and then a bunch of crazy stuff happened. John Krasinski, I might misrecount it, but Brunson makes a two point shot with like 39 seconds left over Champagne. Wembanyama, after a timeout, misses a jumper from the left side of the floor, going for the 2 for 1 with 30 seconds left. Brunson then misses a jump shot with like 16 seconds left when Banyama gets the rebound. Spurs have a chance to play for the last shot. Outlet pass. Steph Castle, not looking for it off his back. Out of bounds. Brunson steals it and is fouled. Not out of bounds. Brunson steals it and is knocked out of bounds, is fouled. One out of two. Luke Cornette maybe kicks the ball on the rebound. Spurs timeout. Wemby misses another jump shot. A second miss in 30 seconds of game time. Knicks escape with the one point win. Wemby, I thought, answered the critics who were howling at halftime with a pretty goddamn strong second half. But a game of runs and the Knicks had the last gasp. And John Krasinski. I think we just have to start now. This is one of the most remarkable things I have ever seen in sports, in any sport, ever. I said before the series, I. I think the Knicks have some sort of magical alchemy going, and I believe in it. Even I didn't think they would win both games in San Antonio. And when the spurs finally took the lead on that punch by Wemby, you thought, okay, one, one, we're set for an epic finals like we all expected. And the Knicks somehow some way escape with a win. And this is becoming one of the greatest stories in the history of sports. If they wrap this up, the 50 whatever year drought and one of the greatest playoff runs of all time, 13 wins in a row and the Knicks are coming home two wins away from a title. Where do you want to start as we try to digest this game? Do you want to start at the end? You want to start with Wemby? Do you want to start with the Knicks winning a game where BRUNSON Was what, 7 of 25? I think from the floor. What's, what's, what's the number one headline for you?
- [05:57]
John Krasinski
John Krasinski, Zach Lowe, you're not going to be surprised to hear this. Other people who know where I'm from are not going to be surprised to hear this. To me, the story of this series in these first two games is Carl Anthony Towns has been the best player through, you know, what are we at seven of the eight quarters. He is playing incredible defense on Victor Wembanyama. Wemby played really well in the second half, but really didn't get going until those two questionable calls put Carl on the bench and got Victor to get a little bit more rhythm going in that third quarter. And then the efficiency that he's playing with, getting everyone involved, he has been remarkable. And for a player who has been so maligned, slandered all those things, some for good reason, a lot for not. I just think that this has been his coming out party in such a major way. And for a guy who's covered him his whole career, I'm just happy to see him rise to the occasion here because he has been tremendous on both ends of the floor.
- [07:09]
Zach Lowe
I thought the first half you and I were texting about it at halftime was given the stakes, AKA higher than any stakes he's ever played in in the NBA was maybe the best half he's ever played in his life. And he had 18 points. So it wasn't like, I mean he's had a 50 point game. It's not like he hasn't scored that much and a half. He only had three after halftime because of the foul trouble. But I just thought the story of this game until the last five minutes when I felt the Knicks started leaking oil on offense and kind of just all of a sudden didn't have a plan. The story of the game was they had an answer for every defense the spurs tried to mix in. And when you have Wembanyama, you have as many levers to pull defensively as any team has ever had. You can have him guard Cat straight up, you can have him guard Josh Hart, you could have him play a straight up zone. You can have them play like a hybrid zone where it's hard to tell who he's guarding and when. And the Knicks sniffed it out time and time again. Every time they got him on Cat, they just ran a Brunson Cat pick and roll. And they knew exactly how the spurs were going to respond. Cat was going to pop, Wemby was going to peel down into the paint, and a third guy was going to rotate onto Cat and they were ready to sling that baby around until they got what they wanted. And maybe the defining possession of the game was that action. Brunson Cat, third guy rotates, Wemby peels down. Four minutes in the second quarter, five passes and drives in a row by the Knicks to get the blender going. Because Wemby makes you keep that blender on and on and on. And it ended with, I think an Anna no Bridges hits a three from the right corner. Bridges, who felt like he didn't miss a shot the entire game. And that was one of the. I mentioned the two defining stretches of this game. That late second quarter stretch was one when Hart was on the bench with three fouls and the Knicks put Shamon in his place and played what I call their best super shooting lineup. And you know, it's like. And also when Wemby was on Cat during that stretch one time, they just gave him the ball up top and ran their flex action. And Mikhail Bridges got a back cut out of it. Just every button that Mike Brown and his team could press, they pressed it. When he was on, when he was playing his own, they would clear, they would get him to he. When he plays his own, he toggles from one guy to another. And when he would toggle onto a guy the Knicks liked, like Anunobi or Shamit, they would clear everyone else to the other side of the floor and run a two man game. And they got good stuff out of that. And that second quarter, it went from spurs ahead to Knicks ahead at the half was one of defining stretches of the game. And Towns had his fingerprints all over it. He got a post up on a switch again when Wemby was on him and they switched to pick and roll, he got A kick out pass on a switch where he just wrapped around four guys and found Bridges and in the corner. His defense and the Knicks pick and roll defense overall has been outstanding. He had his fingerprints all over that game, got him the lead. And then the other defining stretch until the end game was when he did pick up four fouls and the spurs had momentum and all of a sudden deuce McBride made a moon ball jumper and Mikhail bridges became Brooklyn McHale bridges. And the Knicks just held the fort without Brunson and without Cat. That was defining stretch number two.
- [10:24]
John Krasinski
But I agree, it was Bridges, Shamit Alvarado, Deuce and Mitchell Robinson for that stretch at the end of the third quarter. And they against the lead against Wemby.
- [10:35]
Zach Lowe
Well, no, it was, it was against Cornett at the beginning. And I wrote in my notes, I wonder if this is why they're risking the non Brunson. I mean Cat was out with foul trouble, but also sitting Brunson earlier than usual. And I thought Brunson was tired at the end of the game. And that's one of the reasons Knicks offense went off the rails a little bit. But I thought, okay, they're, they're risking it here, timing it with Cornet's minutes. And then Wemby came in and they still played that lineup and they extended the lead to 11, I think going into the fourth quarter, two just massive stretches and then they open it up to 12 or 13 or whatever in the fourth. And you just felt like in that moment, seven minutes, six minutes to go, whatever it was, the spurs had missed their chance. It was now or never with that group in the game. And it looked like it was going to be never. And to the Knicks credit, they just, they, they manufacture buckets. Their, their collective skill level is off the charts. If you're going to play the way I described in that blender and figuring out every answer to every defense and pulling all the lever you need. Five guys who could shoot pass and create off the dribble and depending on how hard shot is going, they have that and they have a big man who stretches everyone out and then the spurs come roaring back. And somewhere in that stretch I went from analyst to just mouth agape fan of what was going on. And I don't really know where you want to start in that, but I agree with you. I thought that first half was just unbelievable. If the Knicks win, Brunson will probably win finals MVP because he's Jill and Brunson, he made the big shot in the big free throw tonight. But Kat has a case for it. We're not there yet. He's been outstanding.
- [12:08]
John Krasinski
Yeah. And I would say that one of the reasons that it did get away from the Knicks in the fourth quarter was that they got out of running the offense through Karl Anthony Towns. And you look, Jalen Brunson is one of the best clutch players in the league. We saw what he did in the fourth quarter of game one. He deserves to take those shots and get it. But I do think that they got a little too one dimensional and I do think he tried to force some things that were not working and that allowed spurs to get back into it. One kind of defining characteristic of Carl Anthony Towns earlier on in his career was the throw ahead. You know, behind the back passes, the, the wild turnovers, the offensive fouls, like all of those things that's been eliminated. He is playing with composure and control and making simple reads and simple plays. And when he is doing that, the Knicks are so hard to guard and the spurs don't have an answer. And when they got away from that in the fourth, that did open the door for the spurs to get back into it. Credit to them for staying with it and not giving up. But I do think that Brunson really just tried to make it happen on his own and the shots just were not falling tonight for the most part. And if they had continued to kind of run their offense, I think that this would have been a much easier victory. Towns was plus 11 in a one point win. I mean that's just like. That shows what he brought to the
- [13:39]
Zach Lowe
table Hounds going into this game. Seventeen in the playoffs, 17 points, 11 rebounds, six assists to two and a half turnovers, 56% shooting, 47% on threes. And he had a couple classic like peak Adelman Minnesota era threes tonight where he had Brunson set a little down screen for him and he moonwalked back and he hit a three like that made me think of the Wolves. We don't see it as much anymore.
- [14:07]
John Krasinski
And, and rest in peace, Rick Edelman.
- [14:09]
Zach Lowe
Yep, there you go. 60% on twos. And the way he's playing defense, he has been every bit the superstar that the Knicks thought they were trading for. Every bit the superstar that looked like maybe it wouldn't happen under Mike Brown. And at various points in the season he has been unbelievable and I don't even. Oh and just yeah, at the end they, they. Oh, you mentioned his just passing another play where they had Wemby on Cat in a cross match because Cat's guarding Wemby. Wemby can't get off, and they immediately run. This is. This is the play where I thought, it's probably over. Now. Midway through the fourth, Wemby stuck on Cat Brunson. Cat pick and roll, switch and rotate out. Cat ends up with Fox on him. They throw it to him in the corner, and he looks around and he throws it all the way to Anunoby in the opposite corner. And Victor scrambles out and OG beats him off the dribble. And Kyle's like, am I gonna dunk it? I think I'm gonna dunk it. And dunks it with it with Victor right behind him. That was the point where I thought it was over, and then it wasn't over. And we should probably talk about the end game. Where would you like to start in the last, I don't know, 90 seconds? Let's pick it up. Like when Brunson. Brunson beats Fox off the dribble, misses a layup. That would put the Knicks up five. Run out, goal, tend. I thought Cat actually got it on first glance, and I was wrong completely. And it's down to one. Where do you want to go after that? What stance? What. What are we going to be talking about from that last minute forever and ever?
- [15:39]
John Krasinski
I. I think that one play that you're going to be talking about is Wimby gets the ball down one with the chance to go up and throws the ball off of Castle's back. And that is just like one of those plays where it looked like he got sped up in the moment, and there was a little miscommunication. And was that experience? Was that two young guys just not on the same page, whatever it was. But that, to me, felt like the kind of error, the kind of mental faux pas that you just cannot have in a championship game in a. In a. In a finals type of a setting. And if you are going to win a championship before you're expected to win it. And so they have been largely great, these young guys, all the way through the playoffs. But I thought Wemby doing that, getting the ball and then rushing a little bit and throwing it to Castle while his back was turned to him was just like an absolute, put your hands on your head, I cannot believe that just happened moment.
- [16:44]
Zach Lowe
Four turnovers for Wemby in the game. Two of them happened in rapid succession right at the end of the first half. And both of them were like, those were the turnovers that were the reason. Kenny Smith, I think, at halftime, said he looked shook because one Was just a hot potato like I got. He actually had an advantage like he caught it in semi transition. Cat was not quite in front of him. He could have attacked and he just threw it right back and into the backcourt. And then another sloppy pass. I can't remember exactly this one I just rewatched. I'm going to be interested to see how they talk about it after, after the game we're recording this. Literally the game just ended. So we're missing all the post game media comments.
- [17:21]
John Krasinski
He.
- [17:22]
Zach Lowe
He takes like a dribble or two and Castle looks back at him expecting the outlet pass. And right as Wemby picks up his dribble, Castle starts to turn back up the court thinking I guess he's not going to pass it to me. And then the pass comes. I don't know really whose fault that is. Traditionally the guard would expect the big man to give him the ball maybe. But Wemby waited a beat longer. But yeah, you just can't. I mean that's a, a play that you look back on if you lose the series and say that could cost us. I mean you. Again, you can't boil it down to one play because we've already highlighted these two defining stretches of the game that matter that set us up for that moment. But that's a moment where you have a chance to win the game in regulation and go one, one. And it goes so badly that not only do you not, you don't even get a shot, they get a foul, they win the game. Wemby misses a good jumper at the end. It just can't happen. It was reminiscent of like a couple of the Rockets turnovers in whatever game that was against the Lakers.
- [18:18]
John Krasinski
Well, especially too Zach in, in that part when, when you're making that pass, theoretically you are starting at least a transition or semi transition. And what we saw from the spurs in the fourth quarter and coming back is Castle Harper going downhill to the rim. Like that is where they were having their success. And and so you can say in your mind's eye that I would bet that the spurs were going to score off of that play somehow, some way. And not only did he not score, but then they put Brunson on the line and they end up down one coming out of
- [18:53]
Zach Lowe
is charged in the official play by play as a wembanyama bad pass turnover. I mean obviously they can't give the turnover to anybody else because Castle never touches the ball. But that is how it was. It was how it was charged. And yeah, Brunson misses The second free throw, they call timeout. I'm gonna look again. As we're doing this at the last shot, they're. They're litigating the cornet kick. As I'm watching this, I mean, it's. It's a good shot. Like, it's a clean. I'm looking at it now. The last shot of the game. It's two seconds left. Mitchell Robinson, who I think is played really well considering his injury, gives a pretty good contest. It's a 16 footer from the right elbow. It's probably like a 40 to 45% shot for WEMBY. And the other 55% came up, and you could sit here and say, I thought in real time, I thought they took a little bit too long to get into anything. Like, I'm gonna watch it again. Now. Fox gets the ball, and he just kind of stands there. Two seconds. There's 4.8. When Victor comes up to set the pick. I would have liked that to go a little faster because you could say, like, oh, they could have tried to get fouled. Two free throws, they win the game. I think that's a perfectly fine shot, and Victor just missed it. I don't think he missed it because he choked or he's not up for the moment. I think in the second half, he answered a lot of the questions we would have wanted to see answered.
- [20:08]
John Krasinski
I think he needed to have that second half. I mean, certainly, you know, what Cat did to him in the first half and what the Knicks in general did to just get him out of rhythm, it was glaring. And so I understood why, you know, the halftime show was focused on that and finding a way to get Wembanyama going. And honestly, Zach, like, after watching him for most of these playoffs, usually after the spurs lose a game in a series, he comes out in the first quarter guns blazing, and just like, it's 14, 6 and 2, and the spurs are up big. And I thought that, you know, because that did not happen in this game. Right after the first quarter, even though the Knicks were still down, I thought they were in good shape because they did not get that Wembanyama haymaker. But it did start to come in the third quarter, and, you know, I thought he started to get going. And then when Cat went to the bench, it got him going a little bit more. But, yeah, Victor played really well, especially considering he's 22 years old and he's played more minutes and more games, you know, this. This. This season than he has in his life. He's Probably a little tired. He's an incredible player. But I think the Knicks have done a really good job of just making him work as hard as humanly possible for everything. So maybe in that last, on that last shot, maybe his legs were a little heavy, maybe he was just a little bit winded and, and all of the accumulation of the little elbows to his ribs, the shoulders, everything all added up to that moment just being a little bit off on that shot.
- [21:47]
Zach Lowe
And there was another one. Now that I'm remembering it, I think there were less than two minutes left in the game. Nick's up three where Wemby got a switch and he took Mikhail Bridges into the post. And Bridges made a sensational play and batted away the entry pass.
- [22:00]
John Krasinski
Yep.
- [22:01]
Zach Lowe
And Wemby caught it and was just like, I guess I'm just going to take a turnaround three from the corner, which missed horribly. And I, I didn't like that shot from him. But yeah, in the second half, I mean, you know, he, he did what you wanted him to do. And that. And emblematic of that was that one lefty half layup, half floater around cat in the post where he just, when he takes that extra pivot or fake, fakes the Steve Smith spin and then goes back the other way, he's at the rim and that's all you want him to do. And he made, he made that shot. Let's go through some Knicks players. OG Anunoby, just like a metronome.
- [22:40]
John Krasinski
Yep.
- [22:40]
Zach Lowe
17 points. 2 of 5 from 3. I mentioned the dunk and he had. Who did he block? I think it was Harper in transition. And then someone on the Knicks hit a run out 3. Probably sham it or Bridges right after that was Shamet.
- [22:56]
John Krasinski
I think so. Yeah, I think that's right.
- [22:58]
Zach Lowe
And then there was another sequence like that in the first quarter where Castle missed a layup at the rim and Brunson got a run out three in transition. And he just like, I mean both of these teams, the transition defense has been unbelievable through two games. The spurs unbelievable for the playoffs. But. And Anonymi made a couple of those plays in transition that were just pivotal back breaking plays. And he's just such a reliable guy. Made three. He made the three for three free throws late after Mike Brown challenged A plus challenge, I guess by Mike Brown and they survive a Brunson 7 of 25 and four turnovers, which is really unlike him. The knicks only had 12 turnovers. And I was looking at, we were texting before the game that I was sort of looking at Where Brunson already ranks in a lot of all time Knicks categories and it's going to be extremely high. But one of his superpowers is his turnover rate is just routinely like super low for a guy who handles the ball so much. And the Knicks again had another low turnover game and just, I mean, what a. And the pendulum of Josh Hart, like the hero of game one and 18 minutes, five fouls, minus three in game two. And they find a way to win. The Knicks. You mentioned the early lead for the Spurs. The Knicks are just a skillful, thoughtful, professional goddamn basketball team who walk you down, who do not get panicked, who keep, keep playing their game, who figure out immediately what you're trying to do on defense. And they're just hard to get away from when, when it feels like the classic game like here comes the home team, they're about to get this to 1617. The Knicks do not let it happen.
- [24:35]
John Krasinski
There are no breaks that you get with the Knicks. And credit to Mike Brown for this whole season playing Landry Shamit, playing Miles McBride, playing, you know, Alvarado, giving these guys quality minutes to get ready for moments like they had in the third quarter. Like any. There's so many other teams, Zach, that once, you know, Towns goes to the, to the bench with foul trouble when Brunson is out, that is when the wheels come off. And instead they just bow their backs and keep fighting and they seem to just get a charge out of the challenge of that. And I do think that the chemistry that they have as a group is something really special. Like the. They are so connected all the way up and down that roster that the belief never wavers. Whether they're down 22 against Cleveland in the fourth quarter, whether they're down 12 against the spurs in the freaking Finals. It's just stay with it, keep going and the door will open. And if it doesn't open, we're going to kick the damn thing down. That's what these guys are doing right now. It is one of the more remarkable things I've been covering this league almost 25 years and to see the way that this has come together and the way that it just does not stop. It's an unbelievable story in the annals of this league's history, let alone what we're seeing just day to day here.
- [26:08]
Zach Lowe
Well, I mean, look, the NBA, the NBA website has not updated, is not updated yet for tonight's game. Going into tonight, The Knicks were 13 and 2 in the playoffs with a plus 281 margin, net rating plus 19.1. And you know, a lot of the people who had spurs in five spurs and seven, by the way, an outcome that's still very much in play. Like the spurs are not out of the series.
- [26:38]
John Krasinski
No question.
- [26:39]
Zach Lowe
It's a big uphill climb and it's hard to recover from two losses like this. But I, I, I mentioned that I was at, when I was at game one of Cavs Knicks and the Knicks made that remarkable comeback. There was some snickering from people who were at the game and I keep saying like not front office or coaches from either of the two teams, like agents, other people who were there about how coming on the wake of thunder spurs game one, like, oh, this was a fun game. It's kind of cute. It's like the JV series. And I was like, I don't think it is like, I think that something real has happened here for the Knicks. They're 13 and two now, 14 and two. They've won 13 games in a row. Let's just say they win in five. Let's just say it. Who knows if it's going to Happen. They'll be 16 and 3 with a plus 18 net rating. It, it would be in the, if they finish the job, it would be in the conversation for the greatest playoff run in the history of the NBA. It's, it's up there statistically with whatever the warriors did with Durant, with the 21 Lakers with the best Jordan teams, you can poo poo the competition. But the Knicks obliterated the competition in the Eastern Conference and they just won two road games in San Antonio. A very hard place to win. It is without hyperbole, as you said, one of the greatest stories I've ever seen in basketball and in sports.
- [28:02]
John Krasinski
Well, and you, you look at just all the individual stories within it. You have this Carl Anthony Towns redemption. You have Landry Shammit as Joe Flacco. You just like getting on this heater that is unexplainable. You have Josh Hart playing like a bat out of hell. You have, you know, Mitchell Robinson making the contest with a broken finger. Whatever he's got going on. You have og you have, you have, you know, you have Bridges not missing shots. Then you have Jalen Brunson who isn't shooting well at all but found a way in the fourth quarter to just go supernova. And like all of those threads are weaving together to just create this unbelievable quilt that is going to stand the test of time if they are able to finish it off. And you're right Zach, I want to just like really hit the pause button, say that this series is far from over but everything that has come together for them and they can also walk out of these two games saying we haven't gotten a really good Jalen Brunson game yet. We, we, we've, there's been a few other things that could be much, much better going back home and they're gonna just have confidence flowing through them. And I just, I cannot even imagine what Madison Square Garden is going to be like for game three up to. Oh, it is going to be on fire. It probably already is right now going on right now. It's just going to be incredible.
- [29:37]
Zach Lowe
You know, when you were talking about the Knicks players, it made me think about just like male bridges game, Game four of the Hawks series. Are they going to bench him? Is he going to be. Was this trade of a stake?
- [29:51]
John Krasinski
Yep.
- [29:54]
Zach Lowe
And then he comes out and he has this month now of just consistently excellent two way play. Josh Hart on the bench during the Knicks rally in game one against the Cavs. Maybe you know, they, they just need to go all shooting. He comes out and he has just a classic Josh Hart. He's everywhere and he makes five threes game. Alvarado out of the rotation for, you know, a good chunk of his Knicks stint has leapfrogged. Clarkson comes in in game one in an emergency situation where Brunson has to go to the locker room and just makes every right read. Like talk about a guy who, who, who is it wired to if the opposing big is on? Cat, whatever else you think we're doing, we're going right into a pick and roll with me and Cat and we're going to see how the defense responds. It's just been all season. I said the Knicks were reminded me of the sensation watching them play of having like a word or a trivia answer on the tip of your tongue and you know it, but you just can't quite get there. And then they'd get there. They'd be in the zone for two, three, four, five games. That ain't one stretch. And then they would lose it. And you just wondered would they ever get it back? Would they ever be able to sustain it if they got it back? Not only did they get it back, they found an even higher plane of existence and they've sustained it. And they are playing like the best basketball team in the world. And they're two wins away from a title, but they are two wins away from a title. And one of the powers of having home court Advantage is not only Game 7 at home, but if the spurs split in Madison Square Garden and win game five, they only got to win one more road game to, to put everything on the line at home in Game 7. It's a 31 comeback is much more realistic from the team with home court. And so going forward, let's try to come down from like the ecstasy of a crazy game. What it, what did, what did you see? Whether it was in the last five minutes or just overall from the first two games, stuff the spurs did that could carry over into a hostile environment.
- [31:56]
John Krasinski
Well, I mean, I think a couple of things. One is that to see Wembanyama start to find his spots and figure out ways to attack and be productive, I think is the most important thing. He did look flustered certainly in game one and in the first half of game two and, and just didn't seem like he knew where he was going to get his offense. Now it looks like he can go back to this film, look at the second half, looking at the fourth quarter and say, okay, now I understand a little bit more about where I can be effective. The other thing though, Zach, I mean, I know other people have talked about it. This isn't super original, But Dylan Harper +12 and I just think that when you look at he played 32 minutes, that may even need to be higher. Like, like, I just think that getting the ball in his hands and letting him go with it, like de' Aaron Fox played pretty well today. But like, I just am not as afraid of the spurs when the ball is in Fox's hands versus when the ball is in Harper's hands. And maybe you can play, you know, him, Castle and, and, and Fox together. But at some, they, they have to, I think transition to Dylan Harper is a featured part of what we're doing all of the time because of his physicality, because of his unflappable nature. And if they empower him more, I think that's their best chance of getting back into this and flipping it in a way that can be sustainable not just for one game, but for four games, which is what they need to, to dig this thing out of the mud.
- [33:46]
Zach Lowe
I mean, I, I don't know how much more you can ask of him than 32 minutes and 15 points plus 12. I don't know. I'm sure they can dial up as minutes more than that. I mean, Castle had to leave the game for a little bit with fouls and he hurt his foot and then came. Seemed to hurt his foot and come back In Fox was very good tonight and, and came alive in the fourth quarter. He stepped back three up and under around Brunson. Another ISO against Brunson. And to me, all of that, including Harper, I, I think they need to aim even more of their offense at Brunson. And yes, just, just on the ball. Not even necessarily like they keep, they keep running these double screens or staggered screens or Wembanyama screening on one side and whoever Brunson is gardening screening on the other side. And Brunson's escaping that stuff pretty easily. They're not even really using his man. They're using Wemby instead. And the Knicks pick and roll defense has been again, a skillful, thoughtful team. They are bumping Wembanyama on the roll early when they set those stagger screens. I might not even set the staggered screens anymore because what it's doing is it's putting a Knicks defender up high and in position to hit him early, but before a second guy hits him or threatens to hit him late. And they're just not getting anything out of the Wembanyama pick and roll. So I might make them even, even simpler and just. I would go at Brunson, I would just hunt them with my guards a little bit and attack him physically. With Castle had, has had some success, I would do that even more. And Wemby. Stan Van Gundy mentioned this after game one and he's totally right. He needs to hammer people on these picks. He's getting out of them too early. And he, he, he's. He's not getting his guards separation and therefore he's not making Towns and Robinson shift over at all. And the roles are just. There are two or three possessions where you can see a lob is there, and the guards either don't see it or don't have the confidence to make it, or they're being covered so tightly from behind that they, they just aren't comfortable making it. But for the most part, the Knicks are playing spectacular defense. And part of that too is like, you go back and watch their closeouts. They're short to Harper, they're short to Castle, and they're closing out hard on everybody else. They're short to Keldon Johnson, who has not made an impact really at all, other than one offensive rebound. Like, they are not messing up basic schematic things ever in these games. And it's, it's hard to beat a team that doesn't beat itself even at all.
- [36:08]
John Krasinski
Yeah, and I do think, like, that is another part when you look at what got the spurs here and what hasn't been there in the first two games. Stefan Castle had some incredible games against the Timberwolves, against the Thunder, and he hasn't had that big game yet where he's hitting all of his threes, he's getting to the basket and scoring at the ram. He was 5 for 14 tonight. I can't remember what he was in Game 1, but he was not effective. And so, you know, that is one where you can look at and say, you know, just like the Knicks can say, you know, Jalen Brunson may shoot it better at home or, you know, a few others. Like, I think Stefan Castle is going to be better offensively, certainly just more dynamic from a scoring standpoint going forward. And maybe it's the physicality, maybe, you know, it's the stage or whatever, but he's so mentally tough. Like, he will figure some of this stuff out, but he is a roadmap to okay, if Stefan Castle gets it going, that allows them to exploit Brunson a little bit more, too, and just find switches and, And. And go at him or. Or even Bridges or any of these other guys. And so I just think that he is going to have to step his game up and really look more like the Castle from the Western Conference finals, from the semifinals to kind of really put the Knicks on their heels a little bit more.
- [37:27]
Zach Lowe
And I don't know how much more Wembanyama can play in 40 minutes tonight. Big minutes in game one. They're just losing the cornet minutes, even when Brunson is off the floor over and over again. You know, Carter Bryant at center was floated as a solution. He just hasn't looked ready to play in this series. So I don't really know what they're supposed to do there. If French vanilla is even an option. They just haven't really used that, and I don't love it for them. I don't think their team really is built. Is built to play that way. I would go back. The first thing I would do if I were on the spurs coaching staff is, is have a drink. The second thing I would do is queue up my film and watch the last five minutes of our defense versus New York's offense and see did we find anything in that stretch or did the Knicks just kind of slow down? Did they get tired? There was that one possession where Brunson kind of just stood in the corner and Mikhail Bridges dribbled around for a bit and committed a turnover. Because the. The defense they went to in that stretch was the Victor zone where he's just tagging, tagging off and switching off on, on one player after another. Not guarding Towns, not guarding Hart who was on the floor, off the floor, on the floor. And the spurs are trying to mix up their defenses I think to be unpredictable like he'll. Victor will start on town straight up and then hit next possession he'll be in his own. Next possession will be on Josh Hart, next possession will be on Towns again. And part of that is you can't always set the defense you want. But I think a lot of it is they're trying to be so unpredictable to throw the Knicks out of rhythm. And the Knicks are too smart. The Knicks are just sussing it out immediately and I wonder if that, if that zone ends up being their best answer. But the Knicks have figured out how to beat, how to beat Victor in his own. And the way they've done it is bringing him into the action on the ball, finding him and bringing him in a two man game that he can't really get out of or hasn't figured out how to get out of. And yeah, he's in the two man game. He's Victor, he's huge. They'd rather have him out there on the floor than at the rim. And also like there's again when he's guarding Josh Hart, it's happened in both games. They will go right to a Cat post up because they don't have the size to guard Cat and Josh Hart will be the entry passer and Victor Wembanyama is like pressing him out there. And I'm like, you're just letting Josh Hart not, he's not even pressing him because if he were pressing him he wouldn't be able to pass. He's on him, but not on him enough to dissuade the entry pass. And Cat is feasting in the post again. And then you know, Cat gets Luke Cornett for a possession and drives by him for a floater. Just every element of Cat's game is singing. So I don't know what they found in those in those last five minutes, but I. Kelton Johnson played 16 minutes tonight after eight in game one. He's the one guy they have that if you want to play around with Victor on Hart or Victor in his own and not worry that you're overmatched physically by Cat. He's the closest one still giving up size. But I, I don't know if more Kelden Victor minutes together is anything but. I mean they almost won the Game tonight and they, they had a chance, they had the ball in their hands and I, I can't wait to go see the quotes or what's being said about that. That pass that is going to go down in spurs history right up there with Manu fouling Dirk in, in 2006 and all of that like, or I think it was 2006. It's just an all time learning moment, I guess.
- [40:59]
John Krasinski
Yeah. And I'll say I do want to go and watch this game back just to get a. Not get my mind around it because my brain was melting as I was watching that fourth quarter. But my initial impression as I watched the game and I picked the Knicks
- [41:13]
Zach Lowe
in six, even more aggressive than I was, I picked Nixon seven.
- [41:17]
John Krasinski
Okay. Yeah. But you know, as I was watching those last five minutes, it felt to me in real time like the Knicks were letting the spurs off the hook more than the spurs were dictating the rules of engagement and figuring things out and getting stops. Like Brunson was taking some tough shots. He makes some of those. But all of that ball movement, all of that intelligence had kind of dissipated and it was more one on one, more ISO. And I thought that just really played into the spurs hands, you know. Your point about the zone, Zach, is we. A lot of teams struggle with the zone if they can't shoot it from outside or if they can't move it. And the Knicks do both of those things so well that they're almost zone proof even with Victor going against them. So I mean, you know, maybe they will. Maybe they did discover something. But my initial thought as we're talking about this right after the game is that the Knicks were more responsible for that lead slipping away than the spurs were for going out and grabbing it and take it and getting back into it.
- [42:22]
Zach Lowe
And there's probably some fatigue factor too. I mean, yeah, the Knicks starters are all playing big minutes. I mean, you know, did you see.
- [42:28]
John Krasinski
How about the Fox Brunson little tete a tet?
- [42:30]
Zach Lowe
Like we had some dust ups in this game. Brunson just stares and then Bridges gets in. You're just waiting for your college buddies to come break up the fight. We had the Josh Hart trip on Cornett. I was a cornet.
- [42:44]
John Krasinski
I think that's right.
- [42:45]
Zach Lowe
I thought that was, I thought that was correctly called as a flagrant. I thought there was a little too much reaching up and grabbing there. We had the Mitchell Robinson Tech jostling with Wemby, which I thought was a horrible call.
- [42:58]
John Krasinski
Yes.
- [42:58]
Zach Lowe
I just thought that's a hey, that's a blow the whistle said, hey, settle down.
- [43:02]
John Krasinski
Yep. Especially from Tony Brothers. He doesn't do that stuff. Come on, Tony. Let him play.
- [43:07]
Zach Lowe
By the way, ongoing on one of my many sports text threads. Two friends ashore rain nameless Knicks fans earlier today purchased plane tickets, hotel rooms and game tickets to game five in San Antonio and are now thinking, what are we gonna do if there's no game five? Worst case scenario, one says a visit to the Alamo and a fun Mexican meal. If David Stern. If David Stern was still with us, no way does he not make sure there is a Saturday night NBA finals game game next weekend. They're now they're plotting what to do in case they're in San Antonio with nothing to do with all their Knicks gear.
- [43:41]
John Krasinski
I thought that the. The thumb was on the scale when Cat got those two fouls in the third quarter and they were a little questionable. And I wonder if Adam made the call from. From the stands there. But that would be a good problem to have if you're a Knicks fan. I would still go and just wear your Knicks garb up and down the riverwalk and that'll go soak it all in.
- [44:01]
Zach Lowe
That'll go well for you. Just. Just obnoxiously show up after the series is over.
- [44:06]
John Krasinski
When. When. Why not? You're.
- [44:08]
Zach Lowe
You.
- [44:08]
John Krasinski
You haven't won a title in 50 years. Just like, I mean, you. You got to do whatever you can to celebrate this. If that. If that does happen.
- [44:16]
Zach Lowe
I'm trying to think what else I want to hit from. From this game.
- [44:20]
John Krasinski
We.
- [44:21]
Zach Lowe
We've. We've hit a lot of it. I mean it was like a. A B game from Wemby.
- [44:26]
John Krasinski
Yeah.
- [44:27]
Zach Lowe
But I think. I think he did a lot enough. I think he had 22 points in the second half. I think he at least answered the. He definitely answered the was. Was a little bit odd or shaken.
- [44:42]
John Krasinski
It was. Yeah. It was by no means a bad game from Wemby or one that was like, oh, he's not ready for this kind of a thing. It was. It was a quality game, but it's probably not what they need to win. They need. They need an A game out of Richter woman Yama to beat these Knicks the way that they're playing right now.
- [45:00]
Zach Lowe
Can we just to talk about Jalen Brunson for a second, please? I. So I sent you these basketball reference searches I did. One was for regular season. Had to play over 140 games with the Knicks. I wanted to include Cat and some other stats. His career, regular season average is 26.3 points per game. Only Bernard King and Bob McAdoo have averaged more as Knicks in that many games. He is currently 9th in all time scoring already for the Knicks in the, in the regular season he will. If he stays with the Knicks, he probably will not. He's not going to catch Ewing, but he'll be number two all time in regular season scoring and playoffs scoring. He is already number three. And points per game 29.2 number one over Carmelo Anthony. And the advanced stats are he's even higher in those. And Towns has matched him in those in the playoffs in less games. Like to, to, to the point of, you know, if they win the title there will be. Is Jalen Brunson already the greatest Knick of all time?
- [46:08]
John Krasinski
Yeah.
- [46:09]
Zach Lowe
Or, or like let's say greatest nick since the 73 championship game championship team. Because two titles for a guy like Clyde Frazier is. Yes, but he is. I, it's a conversation. Post that post Walt Frazier, like with apologies. I don't. Look, I grew up on Patrick doing. Patrick has 23, 000 career points as a nick. Jalen Brunson has 7,000 some. But at the very least it will be a conversation if you care about longevity that much. But if he, if he carries them to the finish line and breaks the drought, the, the conversations are going to be deserved and one of the conversations is going to be like this is like up there with LeBron at the max to Miami and whatever other free agency signing you want as like the, the greatest signing in NBA history.
- [46:57]
John Krasinski
Yeah, I think like I, I heard Bill and Max Kellerman talking about this a little bit on their pod and, and yeah, I, I don't think you can put him ahead of Clyde, maybe Willis Reed too. They're both in the conversation right with the, with the championships and they, they've won and, and just all of the accolades over multiple seasons. But when you look at everything and like I'm a big picture guys act like of course I'll look at the stats and break those things down. But I like to talk about the cosmic significance of things. And to me when you talk about Jalen Brunson, you know, signing with the Knicks, it was unheralded at the time. You know, a lot of people even question if it was an overpay at the time and the way that he has sort of single handedly changed that entire franchise. It's been unassailable. And not only did he do that, then he takes less money on the next contract. So that they are not in the cap hell that the Timberwolves were in and why they had to trade Karl Anthony Towns. And so they are, they're better suited and better positioned because of the way that Jalen Brunson is going about his business as a Knick. And then just all of the last second shots, the, the incredible game. And it's also, you look at it as, this is an undersized, Rocky Balboa type guy. I know he's Philly, but like this is the kind of player who is unexpectedly great. And I think that New Yorkers, Knick fans, not only, you know, would you love to have LeBron in your uniform and do it all, of course you would. But to have a guy like this, of this stature with this kind of game emerge as a crunch time killer, the way that he has and really just carry himself in a way that has completely changed the whole vibe and feel of what was a, an embarrassing franchise, quite frankly. Yeah, he deserves to at least have that conversation. Patrick was there a lot longer, but he wins it. If he wins that title and what he's already done with everything else economically and vibes wise and all that, he of course believe belongs right in that conversation for best since the 70s.
- [49:14]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, it, it would be, it would be hard. He's averaging 20. They just updated the stats. He's averaging 26.6 points per game in the playoffs, six assists, two and a half turnovers, 46 shooting overall, 33 on threes. Towns is averaging 17 a game now up to 57 shooting, 48 on threes, 11 rebounds, five and a half assists. Almost as many assists as Brunson. Obviously the size, the rebounding, I. There's an argument to be made and the advanced stats would make it for you that Towns has been the best player on the Knicks in the playoffs. It's hard for me to get all the way there with a near 10 point gap in scoring and just how clear it is that Brunson is the fulcrum of, of the, the ball handling fulcrum anyway of the offense. And Towns has obviously had flirted with foul trouble here and there in some games. But I, I think, I don't think it's a stretch to say that it's, it's close at the very least. Like that's how good Towns has been on both ends of the floor. And you throw in the just sudden and dramatic uptick in his assists. He's been like 48% shooting on threes. He hasn't taken enough, but he's like it's, it's incredible. And you saw this up close, so I will let you weigh in. But I, I've said this before, I will always, I will like in the first round of the playoffs, there are eight series, so many series and so many games that I naturally and others sort of don't necessarily check out. But my, my attention level to detail When a series goes 3, 0 for game four and beyond wanes a little bit. And one of the exceptions and one of the reasons I changed that and now I pay pretty as I'm almost as detailed now for those series is that Minnesota Denver series.
- [51:05]
John Krasinski
Thank you.
- [51:05]
Zach Lowe
In 2023. And I wrote it at the next year when they swept Phoenix. I thought the last three games of that series were the turning point in town's career in the playoffs. Now, he fouled out of two of them, but he played 38 and 36 minutes. So it's not like he was just like fouling consistently. And in games that probably history will not remember as consequential because it was a 30 series. Games 3, 4 and 5 again, not spectacular. 27 points on 10 of 17, 17, 11 on 5 of 9 and then 26 on 9 of 17. But there was a new. Just like the Memphis series before he was so frenetic and in foul trouble and before that he had only played one series. And I just thought those games, those games from afar seemed to mean something. Do you remember them? Do you remember thinking about them?
- [51:54]
John Krasinski
Yeah, I do, absolutely. And like, I think that people who are familiar with me and people who are not, like I've covered him since he came into the league, I generally have been a cat guy. And even when a lot of people have not been a cat guy, just because I've seen all of the things that he had to endure in Minnesota, both personal, personally, front office wise, coaching wise, all of that stuff and Jimmy Butler wise. All of that and Jimmy Butler wise.
- [52:22]
Zach Lowe
It's a good way to put it.
- [52:23]
John Krasinski
You know, he just kept his head above all of that fray and kept going. And so I always respected that about him. But in that series in particular, they were not the better team. Like they were going to lose that series. That was clear. But the way that he found kind of a composure and a, and an ability to take some of the, you know, we call it stray voltage here in Minneapolis about, you know, kind of the way he, he, he is frenetic in times and I do think he turned a corner and then it carried over into the next year because a cut what, you know, two other things that have been lost to history. They swept Phoenix in the first round and in game four they were. Booker and Durant were playing great, Ant was not playing great. And the only reason that they swept them and finished that off was because Cat was terrific through the first three and a half quarters and just kept them in the game until the cavalry arrived. Then you get to game seven against Denver in that second round and Ant hits the big three, Rudy hits the turnaround shot. There's a bunch of other bigger highlight plays, but Cat was the one who was scoring and playing within himself throughout it to keep them from, to keep the game from completely getting away. And that was his ability and that's been in his ability in these playoffs too. And I just think that this one in particular where if you want to separate him from Brunson a little bit defensively, that makes up for the 10 point gap to me in scoring. What he's doing right now on Victor Wembanyama, what he did on Jokic against Denver, what he did on Kevin Durant against Phoenix, he has that ability to do it. It just hit. It hadn't been done consistently and now we are seeing it every single night. And it's another level of Karl Anthony Towns, one that I thought that he would get to. But to see it actually happen here in real time has been remarkable. Like to see just like everything that he's doing on both sides of the court, including you, that one play defensively in the fourth quarter where Castle comes in, it's two man. Cat is guarding two guys at the same time and he forces Castle to make the bad pass to that, that OG intercepts.
- [54:44]
Zach Lowe
Oh, that's right. Yeah.
- [54:45]
John Krasinski
That's not going to show up in the stat sheet. No one's going to remember that. When you look back, it's not going to be on the highlight reel, but Cat holding his ground and being in the right place. That those little things that he's doing now, I just make his game so much more effective and impactful. And I, I agree with you. It started in Denver in 2023 in a series that they lost in five games.
- [55:07]
Zach Lowe
And that was the one, that's the one where Nas Reed is out and Jada McDaniels is out. Right, that series.
- [55:12]
John Krasinski
Yeah, yeah, both of those guys were out. Yep.
- [55:14]
Zach Lowe
So it's funny, before I remember writing this like before he had played 13 playoff games before game three of that series. And I think two play in games and include so 15 total games and included in those games were an eight point game, a five point game, an eight point game, an 11 point game, a 10 point game. And I think in one of the play in games it's another which is not showing up in the game log because those games effectively, like don't exist. I think one of them is another single digit game.
- [55:42]
John Krasinski
The Clipper game was terrible playing. Yep.
- [55:44]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, that's right. And then, since then, you know, look, the shot's gonna go up and down, right? Like against Dallas in the conference finals in 24, he didn't shoot it very well, but he's been pretty goddamn steady in the playoffs. And, and, and you know, this playoffs has been, I mean, spectacular. Any concluding thoughts, John Krasinski?
- [56:04]
John Krasinski
I mean, I just think that I've been thrilled with the first two games just in terms of the competitiveness of them, how intense it is. I'm not in that building, but you can just feel it coming off of the screen, like how physical these teams have been, how, how they're going at each other. No lead is safe and yeah, The Knicks go home 2, 0. But the, the quality of play, even though the games haven't been like, beautiful in terms of a ton of efficiency and shot making stuff, it's beautiful to me in terms of like, these two teams are standing in the middle of the ring and throwing punches at each other's faces and not getting out of the way and see who's standing at the end of it. Like, that's what it's been. And that's like old school awesome, highly entertaining basketball. I hope we get four more of these at least. Like, I mean, that's just been how much fun I'm having watching these games.
- [56:59]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, I was at game one. I left San Antonio to do some family stuff today, and I'll be back at the Garden going forward. But it was a 10 point game in the end and I was talking to people after games like, that was one of the most intense environments I've ever been in for a game. And everyone agreed. Everyone was like, yeah, I don't know if it's game one. It's not game seven. It was, it's not like it was Cavs Warriors 2016 when I felt like I was gonna combust on press row. But it, it was really, really intense. And part the Knicks fans in the crowd, added to the atmosphere, added to the sort of heat in the atmosphere. It's been awesome. All right. John Krasinski, like just one of my favorite guys to talk hoops with, covers the Wolves, but covers the general NBA too, for the Athletic. Thank you for staying up with me. Where can people find your stuff as we as we gear into a potentially interesting Minnesota Timberwolves off season?
- [57:52]
John Krasinski
Yeah, I appreciate it. We have@the athletic.com you can find all my Wolves stuff. I have the John Krasinski show on Talk north weekly Wolves Talk, and there's going to be a super intriguing summer to see what they do to try to keep up with the Spurs, Thunder and and Knicks. I think they're going to make some moves. So come on over there and check it out and we'll see. And I'll have a bunch of more cat stuff coming throughout this series, I think from afar as well. So a lot of stuff going on here.
- [58:19]
Zach Lowe
Great. All right, John, thank you so much for your time, bud. I'll see you down the road. It's always great to talk to you.
- [58:25]
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- [60:25]
Zach Lowe
All right, that's it for a late night edition of the Zach Lowe Show. Get some rest, hug your family. We got two days before game three of this sensational so far finals. Can the spurs get back into it or is this a march to a historic New York Knicks title? Thank you to John Krasinski of the Athletic of course, thank you to Jonathan and Michael on production and thanks to you all for listening to and or watching the Zach Lowe Show. Get some sleep. The finals start again in two days. 21 are over and President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over in President D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling public problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MY RESET. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatincenetic or is it mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland? Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New York. For Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7867.
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John Krasinski
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