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- [00:00]
A
This episode is brought to you by State Farm. The best passers see every angle of the floor to make the perfect assist. And State Farm is no different. They know the game inside and out and look at every angle to help set you up with a plan that fits your life and budget. Get the coverage that's right for you. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state. This episode is brought to you by Ebay. I've been hearing people talking about selling on ebay a lot lately and honestly, I get it. We all have stuff that no longer fits our lives. And from what I hear, selling on ebay is actually really easy. Just snap a few photos, write a description, set your price. Suddenly the stuff that's just been sitting around is in front of millions of buyers already searching for what's next. Find what you love, sell what you don't on eb. Coming up on the Zach Lowe Show. Did that just happen? Did we all witness that in Madison Square Garden? Was that a dream? The New York Knicks, 53 years after their last championship, overcame a 29 point deficit to win game four and come within one win of their first title in those 53 years. What a scene. Ian Begley was there too with me. We talk about everything from the game, the scene, the post game scene, the post game interviews. OG Anunoby with two iconic plays in the span of like five seconds of basketball time and two minutes of real time. De' Aaron Fox what in the world were you thinking? Victor Wembanyama where were you in the second half? Well, 3 of 14 he was somewhere. How did the Knicks do this? Jalen Brunson came alive. OG Anunoby just on the heater of a lifetime. How did the Knicks figure out the spurs defense? Do the spurs have any hope going back to San Antonio? Can they recover from one of the all time gut punch losses in the history of sports? Basically, yeah. In the history of sports I'll say it. We talk about all that. We talk about the Knicks and how this playoff run is basically completely anomalous in the history of the NBA. I don't even know how to contextualize this team. Finals mvp. It's a little premature, but we talk about it anyway. Just both of us are hungover on vibes and no sleep from a magical night at Madison Square Garden. A night the spurs are going to regret forever. But I expect the spurs to come out and make the Knicks earn it in San Antonio. And if they get back to MSG oh my God. Is game six going to be tense? All of that coming up on the Zach Low show with Ian Begley. Welcome to the Zach Lowe show. Oh my God. Ian Begley is here from sny. And we just saw the damnedest thing we might ever see in our NBA lives. The New York Knicks star crossed. Cursed, uncursed. One win away from their first title in 53 years. After the craziest comeback in the history of the NBA playoffs, the spurs blow a 29 point lead in the second half. OG Anunoby becomes a God in New York City with a block on de' Aaron Fox. The Knicks are down one in the waning seconds. All de' Aaron Fox has to do is hold the ball and instead he tries to quick shoot a layup for reasons nobody will ever understand. The second all time brain fart turnover that has happened to the spurs in this series. A series where the total score is Knicks plus eight after four games. The other one was the Wemby turnover in game two. Who knows what the Aaron Fox was thinking? Bill Simmons even texted me, do you think he forgot what the score was and thought it was tied? Anything's possible. And then out of the timeout, inbound to Brunson, Wemby has switched on him. They're not guarding OG who's the inbounder. And when Wemby got onto Jalen Brunson, I thought, okay, like I can live if I'm the Spurs. I know Wemby's big, but he's not Ruko Berry. He's more mobile. And they send a double. Anyway. The best defensive player in the planet is on a guy who's an all time great offensive player that he's a foot taller than. Basically even more a foot and a half. They send the double. OG reads it, rises up for the game winning tip. Absolutely iconic. The New York Knicks, Ian Begley, who have had their fair share of iconic shots in their history. But the most iconic shots in New York Knicks history are shots that have happened to them are things that have happened at their expense in that building. And now they have a moment that is all their own that will go down if they ride this out and finish it. As I think the greatest, most iconic offensive play shot whatever in the history of the Knicks. And then the spurs inbound the ball and I'll tell you, Ian Begley, I was standing and watching. I didn't even realize Kat tipped the inbounds pass and he tipped it. The clock ran out. Just absolute bedlam. What are you going to Remember from this game for the rest of your life, whether it's a play, it's a scene, it's a vibe, like we were there. What a privilege to be there. It's our fucking job to be at that game. Are you kidding me?
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B
Right?
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A
What are you always going to remember?
- [05:24]
B
You know, so much on the court is going to stand out. But just for me, I don't know, this is. This is a little, maybe strange to the common viewer, but I'm at. I'm at the Garden for every game. And always, always, always, there are fans after the game who want to take pictures with the court behind them, who want to kind of mill around and soak it in. And the ushers jobs are to get everybody out of there.
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A
So.
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B
So, you know, five, ten minutes after the game, they're getting everybody out. Hey, you gotta go. It's time to leave. No more. And so they're breaking up whatever kind of party there is in the stands after a game. There was not that last night, Zach, as you know, because 10 minutes, 20 minutes, 25 minutes. A half hour after that game, the court was filled with fans, the stands were filled with fans. The Garden was playing Don't Stop Believing. They were playing some Frank Sinatra, everybody singing along. It's a big party, and the security guards were not telling anyone to leave. And it was just kind of emblematic of how special that moment was and how much people are going to kind of grasp onto that moment and talk about it for years to come. That is just one of those things that struck me because especially at Madison Square Garden, security guards have a job to do, and it's a specific job to do, tough jobs to do, but I think even they were caught up in the moment and just let everybody hang out. And yeah, just a special, special night.
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A
That's exactly what my answer would be. MSG turned into a karaoke bar. For 30 minutes after the game, almost nobody left. Every song that played, everyone was singing along. And when they weren't singing, they were just chanting, og. OG og OG and as I finally left to go down to the press room, so I'm going down the escalators with all the fans. That OG chant is happening. All the fans are going up and down the escalators chanting that. Then they start singing like the. The soccer song that's usually ole, ole, ole, but og OG OG og And then on the walk back from the Garden, somewhere around like 28th and 7th, I don't know what. I couldn't even tell what was in the middle of the road, but about 500 fans had commandeered that intersection and were climbing on lampposts and climbing on things. It was just a party. Good on the Knicks for letting the karaoke party happen. Yeah, an absolutely unforgettable scene. I don't think I've ever heard the Garden louder than it was when OG tipped that ball in. And just, I mean, and think about how the day started, Ian. I lost count of how many press releases got into my inbox about whether there was going to be a watch party or not and whose fault it was. I lost count of how many clips I saw of James Dolan on WFAN saying various inflammatory things. And then Cat commits two fouls in 65 seconds. I thought both of them were shaky calls. I didn't love either of them. We can litigate them if you want. The NBA has to be breathing a giant sigh of relief that the officiating is not the number one story after that game. I thought both were shaky calls. If you, if you called it, quote, unquote, correctly, 100 times out of 100, I think he probably ends up with one foul, not two. Like, one ends up being a no call. I hated the proximate foul, where we can go back and relitigate something that may or may not have even affected the thing that we're challenging. The foul on Wembanyama that becomes a foul on Cat. Great challenge by the Spurs. You have that. You have even at the end of the game. De' Aaron Fox turnover and De' Aaron Fox had a terrible second half. The spurs had a terrible second half. When Benyama had a terrible second half, 3 of 14 stopped rolling to the rim as much. Stopped forcing the action as much. De' Aaron Fox commits a turnover with the Knicks down one, and Josh Hart streaks out. And everyone is on their feet. And here they're going to get over the hump, and here they're going to take the lead. And Josh Hart hears some footsteps, gets caught between a layup and a dunk, and somehow blows that layup. And that's going to be the defining play of Josh Hart's career, for better or worse. And then when Benyama comes down and gets fouled and misses two free throws, and then the game goes on from there. Just an absolutely chaotic finish. And I don't even know, like, I don't even know where to go. Where's where. Where do you want to go at the end of the game?
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B
Well, let me just start with where you started, because, you know, Jim Dolan, he was you know, on a streak of such positive pr. And then, you know, he got divisive with the last. The two games at the Garden. And I was just thinking, as they're down 27 and then 29 and even 20 in the fourth quarter, just the narratives around what. What it was going to be around. Here we go again. James Dolan in the Knicks. They. Owing to. At home with everything that was going on. It just. I could see that coming a mile away. And obviously no one's talking about that now. They're talking about OGN and OB they're talking about the Knicks being one win away. So that. That stuck out to me from the beginning of the day. And then, you know, you talk about Josh Hart, man, I don't know if you were in there after the game, Zach, but he usually kind of smiley, joking around, especially after a win. And he was. That he was. He was light after the game, but he talked about OG and an obi and he said, I have to give a special shout out to OG And Anomi because he, you know, saved essentially his basketball life with that play, with the play that he made. And when he said that, he was dead serious. Like, the look on his face, it was almost like he was emotional because he knows the city, he knows the league. He knows how things get digested. And that would have been something that you couldn't live down. It would have been a Charles Smith situation if the Knicks had lost that game and then gone on to lose the series. That's it.
- [11:32]
A
That's. You bring up Charles Smith, right? And it's what I said before. Like, the Knicks have big playoff points. Willis Reed coming out of the locker room, makes a jump around one leg. Ewings put back against Indiana. Starks is dunk. Even more recently, Brunson shot to close out the Pistons Divincenzo's bang against the Sixers. But so many of the Knicks iconic moments are things that have befallen them. And there were like four different things that could have fit that category in this game, including Hart missing that layup. And then I don't even like. Eventually they take the lead. Brunson hits a floater to put them up by one. Castle gets fouled after Josh Hart misses a box out.
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B
That's.
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A
I don't know if he missed the box out so much on yet another Fox miss, as he was concerned with Wembanyama more than Castle. Like, he kind of. He kind of sandwiched Wembanyama, who's obviously the biggest offensive rebounding for that. But it left Castle naked. Castle makes both three throws again. And I was walking back to your point right before Josh went into the, into the press area, I was walking back toward that area and he was like in that little doorway up the stairs, waiting to go in. And he saw me and I, I know Josh a little bit. And he made eye contact. He's like, hey, what's up? And we, I shook his hand and, and we talked a little bit for, for a minute and he was like shell shocked. He was not like celebrating. He looked like a little bit out of it. So. And then I was. I saw the comments and I wasn't surprised that, that he said that because he's. Look, he's an all time beloved Nick already. Just the way he plays is so fans gravitate to it. But those are moments that can define your career. And unfortunately, Darren Fox suffered one that will define his career as absolutely inexplicable. But please go on. Talk about Josh and the, the aftermath of the game.
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B
Yeah, just. He was. It was an emotional moment, it seemed like, for him. And because he knows, he knows what would have stuck with him and how that love that he feels, deservedly so from Nick fans and how he's held in such a high regard, you know, that would have been decimated, fairly or not by that moment, by the missed layup and the box out. You want to throw that one in there. The missed box out. It was just a really bad sequence. And, and yeah, that just, that just really stuck with me. And then Zach, you know, the spurs, they just kept shooting threes and I'm. I'm sitting next to Vince Goodwill espn, and we're scratching our heads. We keep saying, you don't need to shoot that shot. Running offense. And I just wonder. I wonder what you think, because wembanyama, he gets the flagrant, right? And then he becomes one flagrant away from a suspension.
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A
A flagrant that he almost could have had in the previous game. That, when they, when they ruled that he didn't get an upgrade, which I guess he just can do anything and not get upgraded after the fact. Like he didn't get fined even for decapitating Nas Reed. And that became relevant because he finally. They call him for another proper flagrant when he elbowed Carl Anthony Towns in the jaw. And immediately I was like, wait a second. That means he would be suspended for game five if he had been upgraded to a flagrant the previous game. I think that math is right. Correct.
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B
Yes. Yeah, that's correct. And also it meant that he was a flagrant away from getting suspended, even, even not even not going back to game three with the retroactive call. So did that change the way he played? Because it seemed like he was a little bit less aggressive, less rolling to the rim. The spurs weren't going to him. Did you sense that that changed anything for him? It seemed to change something for the team to me.
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A
So I saw that bill on his live pod last night called it the greatest slash, worst choke in the history of the NBA playoffs. And it was a strange choke job. And it was. And like look, anytime that takes nothing away from the Knicks, let's be clear, like the Knicks, Jalen Brunson and OG Anunoby. By the way, one of the stats of the series, The Knicks have 102 points in the fourth quarter in this series. Through four games, Anunoby and Brunson have 72 of those 102 points. Like they're just the whole entire offense in the fourth quarter. And when you have a 29 point lead in the second half and the other team comes back and wins, it's both, it's the other team. Plays sensationally well, plays smart basketball. Started to find some ways to poke again at the semi zone. Whatever the spurs are doing with Wembanyama and it's also the spurs just collapse. And to your point about Wemby, he started rolling to the rim less often and less aggressively. For sure, not all the time. There are some hard rolls in there. But I don't think it's a coincidence that two of Fox's four turnovers, all of which were horrendous in the second half, all four of his turnovers were in the second half were passes where he expected Wembanyama to be somewhere on the role that he wasn't. And he ended up just passing it to the Knicks. And that that combined with all the threes. And I rewatched the second half last night and just noted like seven or eight horrible quick threes that I thought the spurs took. Quick like Dylan Harper. Dylan Harper, you don't need to be taking a step back. Three in isolation with 12 on the shot clock. Julian Champagne, you don't need to be pulling up for a contested three in transition with 19 on the shot clock and a 25 point lead. Not open, contested, just terrible shots. The play where it became a red, the flag went from red to scarlet to me with like 455 left in the game, Fox is dribbling the air out of the ball and Wemby comes to Set a screen for him. And I'm sitting. It's right below me where I am in the Hyundai Chase, whatever bridge up there. And I see Darren Fox tell Victor Wembanyama to go away. I don't want to pick from you. I want to pick from somebody else. And at that moment, I'm like, oh, my God. He's waving away the 75 monster, who's been unstoppable, rolling to the rim for big chunks of the series. What is he going to do? He calls up champagne because champagne has Brunson on him. And that's de' Aaron Fox being like, I got this. I'm the vet. I got this. Wemby, you go away. And as he's doing that, I'm like, I can't believe he has the audacity to wave. Victor Wemby. Now. OG Gets through. OG by the way, on top of all this, is guarding Fox for most of the fourth quarter. Gets through the screen, and Fox takes a contested step back, too. Just terrible, terrible process by the spurs throughout that entire time. And I do wonder, quick turnaround, tons of minutes. Fatigue factor, mental fatigue, physical fatigue, all the banging around they're doing, did that contribute to Wemby kind of fading out? I think he finished, what, nine? I think he was 3 of 14 from the floor in the fourth quarter, 9 of 25 for the game. But you know what? It reminded me of another Knicks game, actually, the first two Knicks Celtics games, particularly game one last year, when the Celtics just let a giant lead, let the Knicks walk them down bit by bit by bit, and kept taking threes. And what I said after that game was, these teams who get big leads like this, I know it's in your DNA to shoot a lot of threes. Not as much for the spurs as it is for the Missoula Ball Celtics. When you have a big lead like that, the only way you can lose is by piling up zeros on your possessions. Like, the upside of getting a 3 versus a 2 or even a 1 from a free throw is outweighed by the downside of getting a zero. Just go to the rim, get fouled three or four extra times, and you have enough of a cushion to win this game. Just terrible process by the spurs. And the Knicks made him pay for it. I was like you. I was like watching these threes. Remember that one possession where Fox missed the three and then Wemby took two straight threes on offensive rebounds? And it's like, what are we doing, man? Come on.
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B
Yeah. And the crazy Thing too, Zach, is the spurs. We're in the bonus. I don't, I want. It was more than four minutes left in the game. I don't know if it was five or six, but they were in the boat. They had the Knicks, excuse me, the Knicks committed five fouls. I think five or six minutes left to go in the game. So if San Antonio goes to the basket, or even if they drive aggressively, draw anything, they're going to the line. And I think Karl Anthony Towns, maybe I'm wrong. I thought he had five at some point in the fourth, and that's another, you know, reason to go attack the rim. And they just didn't. And I don't know, like, how much of that is on Mitch Johnson. I don't know where you put the blame. Darren Fox takes, takes a lion's share of it. But I want to point out here because I know it hit you when it was happening. The Jose Alvarado substitution, nine minutes and change to go in the fourth. I mean, the thinking on Mike Brown, from Mike Brown on that, and then the execution from Alvarado, a guy who, look, they traded for him, they liked him a lot. But he was out of the rotation for stretches of late in the regular season and it looked like he was going to be on the outside looking into the playoff rotation. And here he is, fourth quarter, in the middle of a historic comeback and playing a significant role in the comeback.
- [20:30]
A
I'm so glad you brought him up. And I'm switching to my third coffee of the morning because it's that kind of morning. Alvarado was sensational off the bench for the second time in four games in this series. Helped swing a game. And I think, you know, in the second half, like Robinson and McBride have been their two most important bench players for the season, and both of them have been more or less invisible in the series. And I thought Mitchell Robinson finally started to get into the series a little bit in the third quarter when Cat got another foul and he had to play more. He got a lob dunk. He missed a couple lob dunks. And it makes you wonder he was shaking his hand at one point if that injury is hurting him. But the Brunson, Robinson pick and roll also got Brunson with shooting all around. It got Brunson going a little bit. And so finally, you know, we, we went into the series talking about, like, worst case scenarios for the Knicks. Cat, foul trouble, Robinson injury. Holy shit, does this become a huck? Porty Sohan, are we stealing minutes with an Obi at center. All of that came to be. It was a disaster. And then it stabilized, and Robinson kind of played his way into the series a little bit, and then McBride has not. But Jose Alvarado kind of became the Deuce McBride substitute. And why I thought he was so good in this game was the spurs are doing this funky zone with Wembanyama where he's not really guarding anybody. Sometimes he's guarding Cat, sometimes he's guarding nobody. Sometimes he's guarding an area. And it's requiring the Knicks to sort of puzzle out how do we want to bring him into the action, how do we want to attack him, how do we want to move off the ball as we're doing that? And that's where Alvarado's iq, both on and off the ball, just really shined. He had, he, he, he made that crazy layup where he fake spun and, and got to the rim. He, he relocated for a couple threes, but he cut to the. The Knicks have been really good. Anobi in particular, at as the spurs are figuring out their rotations and where Wembanyama is and what corner he's closest to. And the Knicks get into their action sending guys right down the slot as cutters right to the rim. Anobi has been the best at this, but Alvarado did it, too. To just make the spurs have to account for another guy at the basket at the right moment to make Wembanyama be like, oh, wait a second, somebody's here. I can't go out there. And they've gotten a lot of corner threes out of the action. By the way, one of the other stats in the series, the Knicks led the league this year. 12.9% of their shot attempts were corner threes. 17.5% of their shots in this series have been corner threes. And they're shooting 45% on corner threes. It's, it's, it's, it's about. They built with this kind of intention, and we'll talk more about that, but y. Al, you're dead right on Alvarado. And what a story, man. A New Yorker, a Knicks fan, a fan favorite, a pest. And like you said, is he going to be in the rotation? Is he out of the rotation? Is he breaking case of emergency? Well, he was in game one when Brunson went out with an injury briefly, and he's just up for it, man. It's a fantastic story.
- [23:32]
B
It is. And again, like, I don't want to say he was counted out but he, I don't want to say played his way out of the rotation because that's too harsh. But whatever it was, Mike Brown really went away from him in a major way in the regular season and staying ready and being present. And that's what these guys have talked about a lot during that 13 game winning streak. And just generally they always talk about, you know, it's, it's zero, zero, whatever the series is, it's zero, zero in their heads. And it sounds like a cliche, right? But then you go to last night and they're down 27 at the half and after the game we're asking them about, you know, what do you talk about in the locker room and you know, what's the messaging? And Alvarado said his thing was, let's just play the right way, let's play hard because, you know, whatever we do in the second half here, win or lose, it could carry over into game five. Karl Anthony Towns was talking about they have the experience on these comebacks. He referenced the Boston games. He said in that halftime locker room and.
- [24:34]
A
Oh, I didn't, I didn't hear him say that. That's interesting.
- [24:36]
B
Yeah. And Jalen Brunson said, you know, just hit singles, hit singles, hit singles. And it's not going to happen all at once. But, you know, done this before and look, all that stuff sounds hokey to us guys who have heard these cliches and heard these stories from teams, you know, across the league, but it seems like the Knicks truly have embraced that, have embraced the idea that they can come back because they've done it before and they know that it's possession by possession, chipping away, chipping away. And so it's just interesting to hear the messaging that in that halftime locker room considering everything that was at stake and considering how the game played out.
- [25:19]
A
I like Jalen Brunson's like, let's just hit singles, hit singles. They're going to whiff. Like we were relying on them to like, whiff, whiff, whiff. We'll hit singles. OG Anunoby was like, how about I just hit grand slam home runs. Forget, forget singles. I'll hit grand slam home runs. I thought the crowd was phenomenal. Like, they were, they were waiting. It was such a much better crowd than game three. They were down 29. There were, there were, they were deflated, but they were also just waiting. They never booed, they never, like, it never got too quiet and they were just waiting for give us a reason to get back. Like they're Chanting, let's go. Knicks down 27, trying to lift up the players, and they're just waiting to get back in the game. And by the time it got to 15, and it didn't take that long to get it down to 15, plenty of time left in the game. Crowd is already rabid by that time. And you got the sense, like, this is a thousand percent in play. It. It became in like, by the time it got to 1918, you're like, oh, my God, there's like 18 minutes left in the game. This is completely in play. I've seen this team do crazy things before. I thought the crowd was great. And to your point about how the spurs game five, this, this feels unrecoverable for San Antonio in the moment. Right. And I. Did you see Wembanyama's postgame presser last night?
- [26:39]
B
I wasn't in there. No.
- [26:41]
A
You had to go to the Knicks stuff. He said the right things about how we can go one of two ways here. We can fall apart or we can come together and get stronger out of this. Just looking at him in the room, he did not look like someone who had a ton of faith that they would take the way he wants them to take. He said he did. But he looked visibly shaken in that press conference, as you would expect.
- [27:07]
B
Yeah. How can you not be?
- [27:09]
A
That's the moment. Zooming out. I said this after game three. The power of home court advantage is that if the spurs came here and got a split, and they did, they have game five at home and a chance to win a home game, just win a home game and force the Knicks to come back here after this delirious win and suddenly face the pressure of we have to win this game or we're going to another road game in Game 7, like the spurs disaster, to lose the first two at home, particularly Game 2, the way they did the power of home court and five and seven at home is the split keeps you alive. They are alive. The Knicks have to be careful to. And I expect the Knicks to play well and not have any kind of letdown or any kind of casualness to them. But I do worry that the circumstances of this, this game, they're less alive than they would be if they just had lost like a normal five point game. I mean, that is, that's beyond a gut punch. And. But I will say this like, if you ask me how I think game five is going to go, I think the Knicks will win. I picked the Knicks in seven. I think that that loss is such a Bad loss that I don't know how the spurs recover. But over and over, both of these teams in different circumstances, like the spurs responding from losses, the Knicks with a giant layoff. Right. The spurs responding from devastating losses. They come out and they play well and they play close games. I don't think this spurs team doesn't strike me as a we're going to let go of the rope and collapse kind of team, even after a game like that. I do think the Knicks will win Game 5, but I think it'll be a good game. I think both teams will play well.
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B
Yeah, I do think it'll be a good game. And I think, you know, Wembanyama, I mean, everyone was great on San Antonio in the first half, but he was really, really good just around the basket. The way he was finishing shots and the way he was moving, it just looked like it was going to be a special NBA moment for him early in his career. And so I would assume that he can pick up there. Game 5. Knicks obviously have played well on the road. I don't think that crowd is going to bother them, but San Antonio is not going to lay down. They're not. They're young guys who have a lot of pride and confidence in their ability. And for a while there, obviously, Game four, The first half, it just looked like they were so loose, like young and loose in a way that maybe a veteran team wouldn't be realizing the magnitude of the moment. And they were just firing on all cylinders. So there. I think you have every reason to believe that they maybe cannot get back to there, operating at that level. But there's a middle ground between the second half and the first half that I'm sure they'll be able to find and they'll make things tough for the Knicks in game five. But, Zach, you. You hit on the crowd. And I just want to say that, yeah, that game three crowd, I think they were taken out of the game and they didn't really. They did not try to rally the Knicks in that end, in that second half. But it was so different in game four because they were just. They wanted a reason to explode. They wanted a reason to cheer.
- [30:20]
A
And as you said, they believe. They believe in this team. They believe that it's possible down 29. They really, truly believe it. It wasn't just like, hey, let's get it to 12 and have some fun. The crowd is like, who the fuck knows what this team.
- [30:32]
B
Exactly, exactly. And you said it, but they were down like 24 and the place was alive. And so I think that's a, that is a sign of belief because, you know, I just. Sometimes I look at Jalen Brunson's shooting numbers in any game, not necessarily playoff game, and if they're a little off and I think to myself, man, if Julius Randle had that line, he would be getting booed out of the gym. But this fan base has a faith.
- [30:59]
A
Thumbs down. Thumbs down, baby.
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B
Yeah, thumbs down. That, that's. That they've earned. And so there's a faith and a confidence in the company. It's competency of this group. And I think that's what the fan base kind of has latched onto here in a way that you didn't see. Even Carmelo Anthony, if he had some of the shooting lines that Brunson has had, he would have gotten booed vociferously. And Brunson, they just, he's just earned the confidence of this fan base.
- [31:26]
A
To your point about the spurs, we'll see what their poise level is, their youth and all that. Castle didn't play a great game. Five fouls. He only played 26 minutes. I didn't think he was bad. He didn't shoot well from the field. But like you put that guy at the line in a big situation, he puts them up by one again making clutch free throws. Champagne. One of seven from three. Missed a couple of open ones in the fourth quarter. Like that's going to happen. He's not that young anyway. The sell quietly 18.6 of 9 shooting. Dylan Harper just outstanding off the bench and is. And it will get to this later but is already creating some big picture questions for this team and for de' Aaron Fox. Right. Right off the bat with his. His play. So the young guys, you know, I more or less did their job. I think the Knicks played great. Wemby did is the other young guy who did not do his job in the second half. And Fox had a total meltdown. Let's take a break and we're going to talk about my friends and neighbors, co star OG Anunoby. The Zach Lowe show is brought to you by fanduel. It'll all come down to this. Who do you think will be wearing the ring at the end of the NBA. Make your call with FanDuel right now. New customers can hit the court with $350 in bonus bets guaranteed after betting $5 for seven straight days. FanDuel is the best place to bet. All your favorite players during the finals. Bet on their baskets and boards or build a same game parlay. For a chance at a bigger payout, just visit fanduel.comlow to get started. 21 or over in select states 18 or over in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. First online real money wager only. Minimum $5 wager required for 7 consecutive days. Bonus issued is non withdrawable bonus bets or which expires seven days after a seat gambling problem. Call 1-800- GAMBLER, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatincut this episode is brought to you by New era. If the 2000s were your favorite era of basketball, New Era has something for you. The NBA Hardwood Classics 2000s collection featuring unforgettable team logos from teams like the Washington Wizards, Philadelphia 76ers, Atlanta Hawks and the Golden State Warriors. And these caps are available in a wide range of fitted and adjustable styles. The Warriors Remember the We Believe warriors with the blue Warrior guy? That was cool. He's not around anymore, but you can still have him. 76ers, that's the Iverson era. That's the black jerseys. They brought those back. You can have them now in these hats ready to support your favorite 2000s era team? Visit newera.comringer to shop now and use the one time code Ringer for 20% off your first order okay, today's finals MVP discussion is presented by State Farm. On the court, especially in the Finals, you can't expect everything to go as planned, from upsets to buzzer beaters. Uncertainty is just part of the game and life's no different. Unexpected things happen. That's why State Farm is there with the assist. But more on that later. For now, I'm here to assist you with the NBA Playoffs. Someone who needs no assist is OG Anunoby. What a what a playoffs for OG Anunoby. He's averaging 21 points, six rebounds. Here's his playoff shooting splits. This is for the whole playoffs, not this series. 21 points a game, 58% shooting, 51% on threes, 64% on twos. In the finals, he is averaging 24 points a game on 58% shooting and 57% on threes. And despite averaging five and a half points less than Jalen Brunson, three and change assists less than Jalen Brunson and Jalen Brunson having big moments in games one and two in San Antonio. I think the Finals MVP right now would be OGN and OBI with a bullet and he represents so much about how this team is built. They targeted him specifically for and gave away our traded away RJ Barrett and Emmanuel Quickley, two first round picks that they really liked and were proud of and, and you know, look like a trade that some people, some people you can find the takes and we all have wrong takes, including me saying that the Wolves won the Carl Anthony town straight. We're going to erase that from the Internet. It didn't happen. Nobody said that. You can find people who said Emmanuel Quickley was the best player in that trade. I vociferously disagreed. And they targeted OG Anunoby for his size in his three point shooting starting there. And the size in particular really matters because you know the whole Becky Hammond thing, right? Like Jalen Brun, you can't win a title with a six foot nothing guy as your best player. I think I told you this earlier this week. I went back and watched some of those clips on the day after she said that she was on NBA Today rehashing her doubling down and who's on the show? Me. I forgot that I had been on the show and I had this take where I was like, look, I don't think any of these things are absolute right. I said I think Chris Paul could have won a title as the best player. Isaiah Thomas did win a title as the best player. I think it's certainly if you had your pick of superstars at the superstar grocery store, you would pick a taller guy to be your best player. But you don't get to pick that. You got him in free agency in one of the all time great free agency signings. Then you build the team around him. You don't get Donovan Mitchell for whatever reason, right. The trade falls apart, he goes somewhere else. You worry about the small guard, small guard thing. What you do is surround him with size everywhere to protect him, to protect Kat in the end. And those three gigantic wings. Hart, who's not that gigantic but plays like 8ft taller than he is. Anunobi and Bridges Bridges game but he's been fine in the playoffs since the Hawks series. And Anobi they're just, it's a perfectly constructed 2, 3, 4 around a small point guard in every possible way. Bridges and OG A plus defenders and good shooters. OG a great shooter. Now Hart just does all the other stuff and is the secondary playmaker that Bridges frankly has not been in this series. He had glimpses of it here and there in the playoffs, particularly in the Philly series and the Cleveland series. Not this series. But I mean that OG Anunoby trade was a, almost a challenge trade. We think he's just the perfect guy for this particular team and we're willing to give up these two guys to get him. And it's just impossible to overstate how amazing he's been in the whole playoffs. I don't even know what else to say. He literally can't play better than this.
- [37:52]
B
He can't. And Zach, I don't know, we probably got into this at the time, but, you know, they resign him to that big deal. And it wasn't as simple as we traded for you, obviously, you know, we're going to make you a big offer and you're going to come back. There was, you know, moments there in that free agency where it was touch and go. The Knicks felt like it was touch and go. You know, the Sixers were right there and the Knicks had to be more aggressive with what they were offering and they did that. And obviously it's worked out perfectly for them. But it's just interesting how many things have to fall right into place for you to have this kind of success, to be at this level. But Anunoby's been fantastic and certainly if the Knicks win the Finals, unless anything way out of the ordinary happens, he will be the Finals mvp and he has earned it with his play and the shooting. I want to know, and I don't know if, you know, Zach, you brought up the, the corner threes, the shooting percentage. I would love to know what he's shooting from the corners because he's hit like late clock threes from the corners. He's just been unbelievable. And then, you know, the defense is what you expect from him night in and night out. And you know, if he doesn't block that Fox shot, we're talk, we're speaking differently about de' Aaron Fox, obviously, and the game goes much differently. So that block probably gets overlooked, but it's just, it typifies his effort and his skill on the defensive end. And it's something that's really propelled the Knick defense from a very bad place they were in the middle of the year to a very strong defense. Zach, I want to give you credit real quick because you came on my show the putback, which is on sny.
- [39:39]
A
Everyone should watch the putback. It's outstanding on sny. Like, if the Mets are playing bad, just queue up the putback and watch Ian talk about the Knicks.
- [39:47]
B
Well, especially when Zach is on. Because, Zach, you said to me it was in March, the Knicks were struggling. I was kind of stuck in the depths of Knicks Twitter where everybody was saying, like, this team's done. I'm done with the team. Blow it up. I was right there with everybody because I'm a cynic. But you came on the show and you said, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, relax. This is a good team. This is a talented team. This is a team that people should have faith in. And you had faith when no one else did. And here we are today with them on the precipice of winning a title. Do you remember what you were seeing then that that allowed you to see what could be here when a lot of people couldn't.
- [40:28]
A
So I was guilty of. I had a weird relationship with this season's Knicks. I've talked about it a lot. I picked them to make the finals and they would, they would have times when they would find it and the. It is the blender, the vibe, the ball movement, the defense. And then times, particularly in January when they went 2 and 9 in an 11 game stretch and the Pistons waxed them twice and all that, where they just kind of lost it. And in that January stretch, that's when I said, I think, I think, I think the Wolves won the town straight because his salary is so big and it doesn't look like it's happening. But what I said was the Knicks could win the title and this could end up being an all time stupid take by me. And it looks like that's what's going to happen. But despite that, and Towns was so much of the focus of the criticism at that time, right? There was all this reporting like, are they actually going to trade Towns? Like, is that back on the table? Despite that, I just kept coming back to like, who am I picking in the east over this team, as raggedy as they were in that stretch. And then they picked it up, their defense started to trend. And what I talked about in March with you and if you go back and watch my live show from, from Brooklyn around that same time, that whole show was like a pep talk to Knicks fans who were like so down in the dumpster. I was like, who are you taking over this team? Like Boston. Boston's the only one that I would be scared of. They had rediscovered a little bit of that verve with the ball. Towns had gotten out of it. Their defense was trending. I think at that time they were like one of three teams with top seven offense, top seven defense. I'm like, I know it's been. The losses are loud, right? The law. Some of the losses were really loud, but the trend lines were there. And that spurs game, ironically, in March when they destroyed the spurs at msg. That was kind of a proof of concept game again to me. But anyway, I don't want to talk about. Fine. It's been a weird season for the Knicks, but here they are. Anunoby. I don't know what he's shooting on corner threes. I do know that he leads the entire NBA in true shooting percentage for the playoffs. So whatever it is, it's extremely high. Um, and even at a self created like pick and roll, step back three last night.
- [42:34]
B
Yeah. And you know Zach just quickly on him like there was. There's always been the rumblings out there when he was in Toronto that he wanted this bigger offensive role. He thought he could do more, he wanted to do more. And he's doing it, but it's not as if he's doing it while kind of while pounding the ball into the floor or you know, doing it outside of the flow of this nick offense. But he's doing it and he's showing he's validating those feelings. If they were real in Toronto, I think they were. That he was right.
- [43:04]
A
I talked to him when he was in Toronto. He was one of my, you know, how many seasons ago, I don't know. But I used to do this column for a certain website called my five or six most intriguing players for the Season. And he was one one year. And I interviewed him and I talked about like, I don't think it's a stretch to say he has all star potential in the NBA. If he, if he did a little bit more and he just flatly in the way he flat Flatley says, like yeah, I think so. I agree. So he envisioned that kind of stuff for himself and they've needed him in the series because Deuce has disappeared. Landry's shooting has dried up a little bit the last couple games. Cat's been in foul trouble now two games in a row. But I want to talk about like seven threes in this game. Just an astounding shooting performance. And I think the Knicks, as that game went on, kind of figured out what the spurs were trying to do defensively with Wembanyama and they, and they kind of rediscovered some of the stuff that worked in the first two games. And I just, I find it very interesting what the, what the spurs are doing because they have, they can put him on Cat and when they do that, when he's guarding Cat straight man to man, the Knicks go right into Brunson. Cat pick and roll, which is what they should do. Pop Cat out for threes, make the defense Start to rotate. They're cutting around. That has been pristine. They could put him on Hart straight up, which they. I think it was a little bit exaggerated the degree to which they did that in game. In game three, and they did not do it much in game four. He just basically guarded an area, and he guarded like a corner slash, baseline area. And in games three and four, you could see the Knicks sort of figuring out, okay, how do we want to attack that? And like, there are possessions where Hart would start in the corner. That's the ideal scenario for San Antonio's semi Wemby zone. Is Hart in the corner? And then Hart and an OBI would switch places. Hart would go up to the wing and Anunoby would go to the corner. And that moment is such a delicious little basketball moment. Because in that moment, Wemby and the spurs have a decision to make. Is he guarding Hart or is he guarding the baseline? Because if he guards Hart, he goes with Hart up out of the paint. And Hart's going to set a ball screen for Brunson. And he's going to be in the action now because it's Josh Hart. He can hang back, play, drop defense, say, go ahead, shoot, pick and pop threes Josh Hart. But you are away from the paint. And the spurs have chosen over and over again in the last two games. He's just going to guard the area. And if there's a good shooter there, so be it. There's a good shooter there. And what the Knicks have started to do is clear everyone else out of that side of the floor so that he has no choice when that corner guy comes up to set a screen for Brunson to follow him and be in the pick and roll. And like the Brunson 3 that got them to within one at the end of the game was that exact action. I think it ended up being Alvarado that he was on. They switched it and he hit a step back three over Wembanyama to pull him within one. The Knicks just have kind of. And then there were like, there were some breakdowns, I thought, where the Knicks with their cutting and their movement kind of confused the Spurs a little bit. And then OBI got open for a couple of corner threes. I thought Harper misplayed a couple of rotations. And these are hard rotations to make. Like, this is a complex defense for young, young guys to make. And OG Made them pay every single time. And I just, I said it after game three. I'm surprised he's not just guarding Hart straight up More and I understand why he's not. But it does make the defense a little simpler for the spurs when he is. And that's why Cats foul trouble was such a big part of this game. Because when Robinson is in or Huck Port he's in, he can just play. The defense becomes simpler. I'm just going to guard the rim, running center. Everyone else play normal defense. That's why cat shooting is such a huge variable because it takes the spurs out of their sort of comfort, man to man defense. By the way, Kat, did you look at his plus minus numbers?
- [47:03]
B
I didn't, but he, he in the fourth quarter. He was tremendous. What were his. What was his plus minus?
- [47:09]
A
Well, for I don't know, yesterday it was plus something a lot for the series he is plus 48 and the Knicks are minus 40 when he's on the bench.
- [47:19]
B
Oh, wow.
- [47:20]
A
And it's because of how he warps them into this strange defense that I think it's just my gut. I think they're being a little too cute with it and could put him on heart a little bit more. And there's a thin line between sowing confusion in the other team, which is what they're trying to do by being unpredictable and moving them around and confusing yourself a little bit. And I thought the spurs sort of veered a little bit. Now the reason they don't want him on heart is he gets up into open space and there's. I don't know if you remember this. There's one play where he's on heart and Hart becomes Draymond Green. Like they posted Kat Wemby ignores Hart to help on Kat's post up and they go into a Golden State style split action where Brunson comes off a hard screen and walks into an open three and he misses it. That's what they're afraid of. But credit to Knicks like they're puzzle solving this just enough cat spacing and ability to offensive rebound against small guys is a huge part of it. But it doesn't matter if OG Anunoby doesn't go absolutely bananas from three in this series.
- [48:22]
B
It's remarkable. Zach, I have another stat question for you and I. Pardon my looking at my phone. I was actually trying to figure it out. You're allowed his numbers since your Friends and Neighbors aired with you and him since it touched the screen. I mean, I think that's part of the rise here. You got to give yourself some credit.
- [48:40]
A
Knicks have lost one game. Yeah, Danhausen, I'm talking to you. Danhausen, you don't get all the credit, okay? The producers of your friends and neighbors get some of the credit and so do I because, you know, there's a lot of buzz about our acting. Is it that there's scripts are coming in? Is there like a twins remake that we can do? Who knows? Like,
- [49:01]
B
I think part of it he got, he grew confident seeing himself on the screen with you, and that's elevated his game.
- [49:07]
A
So did I, Did I, did I imbue him with that confidence? I don't know. That's for other people to say. Ian.
- [49:15]
B
We're not even talking about Jalen Brunson, who, you know, shooting percentage has been below the standard he set for himself, particularly the first three games. But last night he, he was the engine, part of the engine that got the Knicks back to within striking distance. And then as he always does, he had a few big shots late that got them to within one or two points. And it gets overshadowed by an obi. And we understand why. But Brunson played a big role in getting them back to within striking distance and then back to where in a position where they could win the game. And the shooting was much better in the second half and the decision making, I thought, was very good in the second half. And they're obviously not there without him.
- [50:04]
A
Let's take a break and talk a little bit more about Jalen Brunson after this. And that was today's finals MVP segment. It was presented by State Farm. State Farm is here to assist with agents and easy to use digital tools like the State Farm app to help set you up with personalized coverage that fits your life and budget. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Price and eligibility vary by state. This episode is brought to you by new era. The 90s weren't just a decade. They were a moment. And now it's back. Introducing the new era. NBA Hardwood Classics 90s edition. Bringing back the golden era of basketball with iconic teams like the Bull, the Rockets, the spurs, the Suns, the Pistons. Yeah, that's the 90s. That could be the teal horse Pistons. The Hornets are the classic 90s team. The original teal stuff, the Hornet. Buzzing around any old school. Bulls, Warriors. That's the kind of stuff that I love. That's kind of the NBA jam kind of stuff. That's what we're talking about. Plus 90s all star games caps complete with host team side patches for that authentic throwback feel. Available in a wide range of fitted and adjustable styles. Visit neweracap.com ringer to shop now and use the one time code Ringer for 20% off your first order.
- [51:14]
C
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- [52:46]
A
Jalen Brunson you're right. When I checked the box score last night after the game I was like 36 points. Okay, 12 of 25 from the floor, 9 of 11 from the line, seven assists, three turnovers, a number of big shots late after a lot of scrutiny of his over dribbling I think in game three, what happened? What went right? Did he just make Jalen Brunson more like they're just Jalen Brunson shots and they're hard shots and sometimes they go in and sometimes they don't. Was this just like they just went in more?
- [53:17]
B
I mean I think what from what I saw he was getting to the spots that that he is has operated with success in. And whether it was the mid range in rhythm or, you know, he found seams, driving seams, and he's able to finish whenever you give him an inch of daylight. And he had a few drives, multiple drives in that second half where he did finish. Tough, tough shots at the rim, but that's just where his talent takes him and takes the Knicks. And so I don't know if it, if it was anything different from Brunson's perspective, from his approach, but I think in that fourth quarter, you know, we talked about Alvarado allowing Brunson to be off the ball at and Alvarado kind of being that secondary ball handler as a pressure relief for Brunson and the Knicks. I think that's where you could point to something and say, hey, this was different and maybe this is what got Brunson going or what helped him, help keep him going in that second half. I don't want to belabor the point, but just Mike Brown's thought process in bringing Alvarado in, part of it was getting Brunson off the ball and not forcing him to, you know, have to fight the spurs tooth and nail for every inch when he's bringing the ball up or, you know, fighting off the ball. So I think that was part of it. If you want to point to something
- [54:38]
A
that was different, it's, it's an interesting point that applies to the other end too, because there was a play in game three where the spurs used Castle as an off ball cutter. He curled really hard around a Fox pick in the corner, similar to the corner stuff they run for Wemby that they ran a lot more of last night. And he cut with such force, they kicked him the ball, he kicked it back to Fox for an open three that missed. But it just made me think like there's so much Castle on the ball in this series, less so last night because of the foul trouble. And it makes sense because if you run Castle, Wembanyama pick and rolls. And I thought the spurs were smart sort of mixing up the structure of their pick and rolls more of them just with Wemby as the only screener last night and shooting around and you put your two worst three point shooters in the pick and roll with all their best shooters around them. It makes sense. But then you have Darren Fox who's a point guard, and Dylan Harper who just is like so ready for all of this, and you start to imagine a world in which like, could they put Castle off the ball a little bit more? And I think The Fox thing. Look, man, he hasn't had a great playoffs. He's probably injured. Last night was a catastrophe. That will be one of the defining moments of his career and of spurs franchise history, period. If they lose this series. I was out to lunch with an agent two days ago who said, what do you think? When do you think they start talking about, do we have to trade Fox to open up the offense for Harper? And all year, I've said I think this is a perfect situation for Fox. Like, be the veteran mentor, don't overtax any of these point guards. They're in the finals. Obviously, it's worked. But I did my answer, and this is two days ago to this guy was looking at his contract, which is four years, 55 million a pop and doesn't even start till next season. I think Harper in particular has reached the point of, like, if some team actually called me with a palatable offer for Fox, I'd have to at least start thinking about it now to get ahead of it. I don't think they're going to do that. I don't think that call is coming, really. And ironically, one of the teams that's desperate for a point guard is the Kings, who are. Don't think that's happening. By the way, how about Mike Brown having to watch de' Aaron Fox blow the game last night? That's an interesting Kings. Little emotional, emotionally fraught. And the Kings are obviously picking at a. At a point of the draft where there's a lot of point guards. But I do think you'd have to listen to a palatable offer and get ahead of it a little bit, because you could frame it in two ways. Number one, it's. It's obviously worked with the three point guards. They're. They're three wins away from the NBA title. Number two, have you already kind of gotten out of Fox what you hoped to get out of him, which is veteran mentor for young guys? First test of the playoffs, like, we're in the Finals. I think you'd have to think about it. And then we went back and forth on, like, who's the team that would trade for him? And I don't know who the team is, but the one thing I did say was if Giannis gets traded, and I think Giannis is getting traded, I think that. I think the toothpaste is all the way out of the tube and he gets traded to a team like Miami or just say, like, Brooklyn made a crazy play for Giannis. I don't think that's going to happen, but let's say they did. Let's basically a team trades for him and they don't have quite enough still on their team to be like, we're a tier one contender. We just traded all these. That's what you want. We trade all our picks and young guys for Giannis. You want to be a contender, but we're not. Is Fox a guy that could be the next guy in the door for that kind of team? Like, get him on the cheap. He's still a really good player. He made the all star team this year. We're a little bit desperate because we just are pot committed to Giannis. I don't think that's going to happen. I think the spurs, if they lose this series, are just going to let this rest. But I do think like Harper has been so good and is such like a central casting lead guard in the NBA, they have to figure out how he and Castle fit together. I don't worry about that at all. I love Steph Castle. I'd love to have him on my team, but I don't know, man. Like, it's, it's going to be interesting because this has been a not great playoffs for him and last night was like catastrophically bad.
- [58:48]
B
I mean, a couple of things, Zachary, come to mind. Is it, is it overly simplistic just to say, flip the roles? Fox comes off the bench fewer minutes,
- [58:59]
A
but then you're paying a bench guy $55 million a year for the next four years. Right?
- [59:04]
B
But if you're going to trade him and not get the value that you would deem as, you know, equitable or palatable, maybe that's something to try. But the other thing that you bring up is fascinating because, you know, there are teams that are right there that will need point guards. I mean, Minnesota is the obvious one. Houston has Van Vliet coming back, but I wonder if they explore the point guard market there. And so even without that Giannis trade, it's true contenders who are going to be looking for a point guard now, Kyrie Irving, I think will be, you know, among the point guards that these teams call about John Moran, I don't, I think more of a reclamation project. I don't think a team that's ready to win would take him out. I mean, I've heard that the market is, it was. Has been tepid for Morant and you know, people look at Sacramento, but I think Sacramento is confident that they could get a really good guard in this draft. So the Moran thing is different. But yeah, I Just wonder. Those kinds of teams that you mentioned, without even the honest trade.
- [60:09]
A
Yeah.
- [60:10]
B
If you miss out on one of the guys that you like, do you pivot to Fox? But, you know, I don't know. I don't have my finger on the pulse of San Antonio, but I just wonder if it would be too early for them. They think it would be too early to make a drastic move like that.
- [60:25]
A
I'm saying right now, if I'm Brian Wright and you bring me a decent offer, like, we got to at least have a meeting about it because the contract is not going to age well. I don't think I, you know, I'm disappointed in his play in the playoffs, but again, he's. He's playing with some kind of high ankle sprain or whatever. It's a good point about Morant is another one of, like, buy low. We can, we can add him to our team. Whether it's Giannis. Not Giannis is like. Because I think he's going to get traded, too. But the Giannis thing, I think it's happening. Like, the teams are operating as if it's happening. Agents are operating as if it's happening. Like, they're looking at Milwaukee as a rebuilding team. They're looking at Milwaukee as a team that might have another first round pick in the lottery and, like, scheduling their draft workouts around it. Like, everyone is just operating and getting the vibe of like, this is going to happen. Or like teams that other agents have told me, like teams that are in the honest derby. Like, we're acting as if they might not have their first round pick in the draft because they're going to trade it, like, anyway. I don't want to talk too much about that. Brunson. Yeah, man, he sticks with it. I mean, that's what the. That's the defining feature of the Knicks. They're just a professional basketball team. They stick with it. They play their game. They haven't played like a bad game in quite a long time. And boy, oh, boy, did they stick with the last night. What did we miss from last night? And going into a game, whatever, five.
- [61:44]
B
I mean, we. We hit Cass, we hit Jose. I mean, we should.
- [61:51]
A
We hit the fouls more. Did they talk about the fouls in the post game, the cat fouls? Because that, I mean, that. Look, you can sit here and say, like, I think the Knicks ended up shooting more free throws, the fouls or even whatever. Those cat is so definitional to how they play and the structure of how they play against Wembanyama. Those three fouls. And it's the one where he kind of. There's some contact with Fox on a drive on the first play of the game where he juts out his stomach a little bit, but Fox juts into him, hands up, that's a foul. There's the proximate foul where he gets called for hooking Wemby after Wemby was initially called for a foul. I didn't love that. Only because the reason he hooks Wemby is because Wemby is hugging him. Like Wemby initiates the arm underarm structure. And then there's the push off on Cornette for a rebound, which is probably a foul. But on the other hand, like, it wasn't a gratuitous, like arms extended push off like that. That, that is a. I think like that should net out at one and a half fouls. But did they talk about it all or were they just like, forget it, we won?
- [62:54]
B
Yeah, it was more so the latter. It really, it didn't come up. And obviously Knicks lose. If the Knicks had lost that game, the narrative in New York would be about the officials and the conspiracy theories and yeah, that. That's where the attention would be because of those towns fouls. Early on, I mean, I took a walk to meet a friend at halftime in the concourse after checking in on the. The Wu Tang halftime performance, which we didn't hit on that. There's Knicks, I think are 30 since Wu Tang has been on the court performing at halftime. But anyway, yeah, like a couple, few people stop me and they're like, they're down 27 and it's not all the ref's fault, but those, those cat fouls stuck out to everybody who was watching the game. So that would have been the narrative here locally had they lost the game.
- [63:44]
A
I thought the refs, I was joking, like, I think they're going to need to get Trump's motorcade back here to get these refs out of the arena because this is going to be ugly.
- [63:52]
B
Look, is Tony Brothers, if he reps a game in New York, I do in a half serious way worry about that because, you know, everybody was screaming about him in game two and the officiating has been a storyline here. And I think that, you know, I'm the last one to look at officiating. I think it's something that, you know, if you're emotionally looking at a game, it's something that you're going to get drawn to. But I think even myself, people are talking about it just Seems like the calls have been more, much more to the spurs benefit than the Knicks. And I don't know how. What are your thoughts generally on the officiating in the series?
- [64:30]
A
I think it's been a little bit overblown, but probably like 55, 45. You know, spurs have gotten a little bit. And the cat fouls, like, we've seen cat get in foul trouble a lot. Normally they're just bad fouls. Like, like obvious fouls. These were not those. And, and I, I didn't love any of the three calls, to be honest. Okay. I've been waiting to do this. When they won game two, I did my post game pot and I said that what they think it was their 13th consecutive win. And I said, this is one of the most magical things in the history of sports that I've ever seen any sport, not just basketball. Most people agreed. Some people said I was being hyperbolic. I don't think it's hyperbolic. Like, and I tried to find out, like, I mean, 13 games in a row with a net rating of like 20 in those games is just crazy and magical. And it got me thinking, like, is there even a comp for this team? Let's. And we're now three games, three wins into the finals. It's time to at least, like, we can at least talk about it. And by comp, I mean the knicks were a third seed, 53 win team. Like, good team, not great. Like what? Probably great ish. But like, you know, run of the mill, 53 win team.
- [65:51]
B
Right.
- [65:52]
A
They are now 15 and three in the playoffs with a net rating of plus 16 and an average margin of victory of plus 15 and a half. So they went from run of the mill good to just. This is a Jordan Bulls, Durant, Curry, warriors level blitzkrieg through the playoffs. I think that's basically completely anomalous in the history of the NBA. So here I did some deep dives. Are you ready? This is simple basketball reference stuff. I'll go back and do it better later, but this is what I have for now. I searched for every team who won the title, had four or fewer losses on their way to the title, and a margin of victory of 10 or more per game. Okay, so like dominant playoff runs. There's probably teams that had five, six losses that could fit, but that's my criteria. I just thought it'd be fun. Here are the teams. The 2017 warriors, they went 161 in the playoffs, 67 and 15 in the regular season. The 2001 Lakers, that would be the comp 15 and 1 in the playoffs. 56 wins in the regular season. With actually a worse regular season point differential than the Knicks. The difference is they had won the championship the previous year and had Kobe and Shaq and everybody knew what they were. The 1996 Bulls 72 and 10 in the regular season. You may remember that team. 15 three in the playoffs. The 1991 Bulls 61 and 21 in the regular season. 15 two in the playoffs. The 1987 Los Angeles Lakers 65 and 17 in the regular season. 15 and 3 in the playoffs. The 1986 Boston Celtics 67 and 15 in the regular season. 15 and three in the playoffs. The 1985 Los Angeles Lakers 62 and 20. 15 and four in the playoffs. That's the whole list. That's the list the Knicks are on right now in terms of playoff dominance. It's the greatest teams in the history of the sport. Teams that won 60, 65, 70 regular season games. The Knicks won 53. This makes absolutely no sense. Then I did another search. Are you ready, Mr. Begley?
- [68:02]
B
Please keep it coming.
- [68:04]
A
I did a search for. Let's see. This is regular season winning percentage. Less than two thirds because you have to account for lockouts. So that's about where the Knicks were winning percentage wise. So I'm searching for pretty good teams. Won the finals and had a margin of victory of in the regular season, seven or less. Because that's about where the Knicks were. So won the finals. Run of the mill Regular season team. Here are the teams. 2004 Pistons 54 wins, 16 and 7 in the playoffs. The dominant playoff run is not quite there. Interesting comp for a number of reasons. This may be the best comp of all. The 2023 Nuggets 53 and 29 in the regular season. 16 and 4 in the playoffs with a plus 8 point differential. Again, the Knicks are plus 16. Like it's double that. 2022 Warriors 53 and 29 in the regular season. 16 and 6 in the playoffs. Plus 5. Like not close to what the Knicks are doing in the playoffs. 2006 Heat 52 and 30 in the regular season. 16 and 7 in the playoffs. Plus 4. Not close to what the Knicks are doing in the playoffs. I promise I'm done already. Now we're getting into what I call the Simmons zone. 1979 Sonics 52 and 30. 12 and 5 in the playoffs, plus two and a half. Not close to what the Knicks are doing. 1977 Blazers 49 and 33 in the regular season. 14 and 5 in the playoffs, pretty dominant. Plus 4.7. Not close to what the Knicks are doing. Obviously the three. And all that margins can be bigger now, right? 1995 Rockets, the repeat team. 47 and 35 in the regular season. They trade for Drexler halfway through. 15 and seven in the playoffs plus three. Not close to what the Knicks are doing. Two more. 20, 21. Bucks 42 and 26 in a 72 game season. 16 and seven in the playoffs plus five. Not, not a super dominant playoff run, but interesting comp. 1978 bullets 44 and 38. The worst record I think to ever win the title. 14 seven in the playoffs, plus four. Like none of these. So these are like the pretty, the good to great regular season teams who end up winning the title. None of them. The Nuggets are the closest one with a 16 and 4 plus 8. I just think this is like, I've never seen anything like this. There's no matchup really between what. It's. It's just unbelievable what's happened. Like they went from 53 and 29 to 15 and three plus 15 and a half. And like, yeah, sure, the 59 point winner or whatever against the Hawks is they blew the shit out of everybody. Not in the finals, but that's. I think it's totally anomalous. It's crazy.
- [70:46]
B
And it also happened after they got down 2:1 to Atlanta. Both losses by the way, coming by one point. So close games. And then they make the shifts to Towns as the hub. And that's not the only thing. The only reason things changed in a drastic way. It's part of it. But yeah, the gulf between the regular season performance and the postseason performance. I don't think there's account for that, Zach. I really don't. And you could look at it also like two ways with the East. You could say, well, the east was so bad, maybe in a normal year the Knicks regular season isn't a 53 win season. Maybe it's even like a 49, 48, 47 win season.
- [71:27]
A
Tanking, tanking. Plus injuries to key players, etc. Etc.
- [71:31]
B
Right. Or you could say like the playoff numbers are a product partially of a weak East. I could see that either way. But you know, the bottom line is it's happening. And it happened to me once I saw James Dolan and Stephon Marbury sitting next to each other. I believe it was game six in Atlanta when the Knicks went absolutely crazy. Once I saw those two sitting next to each other celebrating Knick dominance. I Just thought anything is on the table because it ended so ugly with Marbury in New York with Dolan in the middle of it. You know, those two together, it just told me anything is possible here with this Knick team if those two can unite over this group.
- [72:15]
A
Look, when I picked Nixon 7, I just. It was corny. I said, I think something magical has happened to the Knicks. Um, I still think that. That said, it's +8 after four games, I expect the spurs to regroup and make the Knicks earn this. And if the spurs win game five, game six is going to be pressure packed at msg, like nothing that's come yet. So TBD on that. Just a couple other final notes. I thought the Knicks were really forceful in game four of pushing the pace, which I think is important for them because it gets them into the blender and just sort of organically gets the ball. Mo and I like when Towns attacks smaller guys from the elbow when Wemby is playing that zone. And the one, the one possession that I saw was Carter Bryant was on him and he drove. And yeah, Wemby came over to help and Cat had to kick out at the rim, but it got the blender going and Ogn and Obi hit a corner three out of it. Those are two of the things that I would look for in game five. But one win away, man. One win away from history. One went away from a party like no other in New York City, whether there are press releases about where the party can be or not. Tbd. But I expect the spurs to come out and make them earn it and make it tough. But I do expect the Knicks to close it out one way or another. But, boy, if they get it to six, that atmosphere is going to be pretty both celebratory and tense at the same time, don't you think?
- [73:47]
B
Super, super tense. And, you know, I don't want to be a Debbie Downer today, but just because it was a Mets reference, I found it interesting. There was a media member we were talking about the OG moment and kind of how, where it ranked and how iconic it was in New York sports moments. You had the David Tyree catch, you had Bill Buckner, and it would be right up there. But the Knicks have to win for it to be right up there. And in the chance that they do lose, the media members said, hey, it's like the Andy Chavez catch for the Mets in that CS where he makes an unbelievable catch. But they still lose that game to the Cardinals. And you don't really remember it the same way. So OG that moment maybe would get that treatment if the Knicks fall apart here, but I don't think they will. I think there's too much going on their side to close this thing out. I'm with you. I think somehow, some way they figure out how to get that final win and then it's going to be bedlam in New York.
- [74:44]
A
Well, thanks for ending the podcast by bringing up Mets Payne, Ian. That's really nice of you. Coming off two straight horrible losses to the St. Louis Cardinals. We'll do a Mets corner once the finals is over. Ian Begle, you're going to San Antonio, correct?
- [74:56]
B
Yes.
- [74:57]
A
Enjoy. I am staying home because I am Bill's post Game Saturday Live Netflix podcast guest, so I will miss that game. I'll be a game six if there is a game six. Ian, thank you. You're the best. Thank you to Billy, Jonathan and Mike on production again. I'll be with Bill on Saturday and then we'll sort of TBD it after that, depending on the results of the game. And thanks to you all, of course, for listening to and or watching the Zach Low Show. We'll see you next time. 21 or over and President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over and President DC, Kentucky or Whaleman Gambling probably call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MY RESET. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatincenetic or is it mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland? Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New York. For Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7867. Your next chapter in healthcare starts at Carrington College's School of Nursing in Portland. Join us for our open house on Tuesday, January 13th from 4 to 7pm you'll tour our campus, see live demos, meet instructors and learn about our Associate Degree in Nursing program that prepares you to become a registered nurse. Take the first step toward your nursing career. Save your spot now at Carrington Edu Events. For information on program outcomes, visit carrington. EDU Sci Fi.