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- [00:01]
Rob Mahoney
So good, so good, so good.
- [00:03]
Zach Lowe
New summer arrivals are at Nordstrom Rack stores now. Get ready to save big with up to 60% off brands like Rag and Bone, Levi's, Adidas and free people. Join the NordicLub to unlock exclusive discounts. Shop new arrivals first and more. Plus buy online and pick up at your favorite Rack store for free. Great brands, great prices. That's why you Rack. This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome? That's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50 page restoration blog. Or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it, ready to make anything online make sense. There's no place like Chrome. Check responses, setup required. Compatibility and availability various 18 foreign. Is here to talk about everything that's going on in the NBA, which is a whole lot of nothing. We're still waiting for LeBron. How long will we be waiting? Why are we waiting? Where do we think he's going to go? Where do we think he should go? We talk all about that. We have a trade. The Lou Dart era is over in Oklahoma City. A starter, a stalwart gone to Atlanta in a salary dump and Zachary Re sachet, the number one pick in the draft just two short years ago in a draft that's shaping up to be an all time crossroads moment for a bunch of teams off to Dallas in that same trade. We talk about that and we do it while we rank the nine teams who at least start the season in relegation zone danger based on where they were in the standings last year, their outlook this year. Some of these teams are going to be maybe better than that, especially the Dallas Mavericks with Kyrie Irving healthy. But we just do a fun draft, an intrigue draft. Who are we most interested in? That's the only criteria. You can draft whoever you want. So we It's a good way to talk about the Washington, Chicago, Memphis, Dallas, Sacramento. A whole bunch of teams. Rob Mahoney we're going to deep dive all those teams in rapid fire succession. Their outlook for this season, their outlook beyond all that. Lots of fun stuff coming up. The Zach Lowe Show. Welcome to the Zach Lowe Show. It's almost vacation time. It's July 21st, day 22. Waiting for LeBron. We're running short on food and water. No decision has been made. Rob Mahoney is here on his way out the door to undisclosed locations for vacation. LeBron, are you bringing a microphone in case LeBron signs while you're on a boat somewhere.
- [02:52]
Rob Mahoney
It simply won't be happening for me. But I've already eaten three of our fellow media members as we wait for this to unfold. You know, it's desperate times out here.
- [03:00]
Zach Lowe
We have that left to go. And connected to that, we have James Harden and Draymond Green still sitting unsigned and we have Jalen Duran still sitting unsigned in a. In a pro. What could be a prolonged restricted free agency standoff, a good old fashioned standoff at the restricted free agency OK Corral. Rob, do you have any leftover thoughts on LeBron James? Do you. Are you. Have you. Have you cross. I crossed the Rubicon yesterday where I'm like, I now no longer am planning any of my life around this. I'm going to go swimming if I want to go swimming. I'm going to make dinner plans if I'm going to have dinner plans. I might have the second glass of wine if I want to have the second glass of wine. And the takes will probably be even hotter with that. So that's where I am. I don't, I'm not mad at it. Like people who have. When my contract has come up in various iterations, people will tell you I am a very slow decision maker not to compare myself to LeBron James and what's at stake for him. So I empathize. I'm just not planning my life around anymore. LeBron.
- [03:57]
Rob Mahoney
I think it's totally reasonable. We have talked ourselves in and kind of out of, or maybe just into whatever the next possibility is as they have come up. I've enjoyed it. I've had a good time kicking around all this. We, you know, done the whiteboards and such along the way. I just think we're, we're cool for now. Like, call us when a decision is made. Report it somewhere. I'm thrilled to find out whatever it may be. But yeah, the days of just kind of hanging on every minute until this happens. I think both. We are too late in the summer for all that, for all of our sakes. And also LeBron is a very important player, but maybe not that player anymore.
- [04:29]
Zach Lowe
I, I gotta tell you, I haven't left my voice note yet for Rich. No, I did speak to him yesterday about matters unrelated to this. Didn't really make a case for Spotify Ringer for LeBron where I, you know, maybe I, maybe I should have. Yeah, I will say.
- [04:45]
Rob Mahoney
Where would you start, do you think? Like, what's, what's the pitch for us?
- [04:49]
Zach Lowe
Certainly not a financial one. I don't think. I don't just, like, leave. Leave the L word legacy. Like, make your legacy bigger than what you did on the court, bigger than what you did with the schools in Akron. Like, talk. Be. Be the basketball narrative destroyer. Talk to us. Teach us about basketball on your own pocket. It's not going to happen. He's already doing that on Mind the game. We can just get. Mind the game.
- [05:13]
Rob Mahoney
That's true.
- [05:14]
Zach Lowe
I will say two things. No one knows anything. Like, I. I don't like that. That is a line that has been parroted by executives from damn near every team that is even within the inner circle, outer circle, no circle. Wherever Denver exists at all of this, everyone is like, hey, we're in the dark. And you. And you ping them. I ping them. Like, hey, I hear rumors that Team X, you're. You have like a salary dump of this player in the works to fit LeBron. They're like, we do okay. I mean, I never heard that, but cool. So no one knows anything. I don't know anything. I will say I did find it just. Just a little notable that Pat Riley sat with Dan lebatar yesterday for an interview among about many topics, among which was LeBron and how their relationship is thawed since LeBron left on fairly bad in 2014. I. But this is now the second. GM Bob Myers already did this in. In the. In the LeBron Derby. But Riley has heft and a deep, preexisting relationship with LeBron. I don't know what motivated him to do that, but it was interesting to me.
- [06:18]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, he does seem like the guy Pat Riley, where if there is an opportunity, if there's a possibility and all you need to do is get out in front of it a little bit publicly, why not say a few things, you know, if he really has thought to that extent. So I think it's good management. I think it's good like, not information gathering, but projection into the marketplace. I just don't know how much it's really going to mean, like, if LeBron wants to go to the Heat because of the golf situation and the basketball situation and all the other situations involved. I would think that part has already been decided as far as, like, Pat Riley's involvement in it. But maybe there really are dominoes yet to fall.
- [06:51]
Zach Lowe
Here is the last thing I will say on this. We've done the fit thing to death. What's the best fit? What's the worst fit? Why is this an awkward fit? Why is this a clean fit? Does he have anything to Talk to. With. With Lamelo Ball about, like, do they have anything in common? What would their conversations be like? Does LeBron understand emojis on texts? All that. And certain fits are cleaner than others. And the Miami one, which I looked at a little bit more deeply yesterday, was. It's like, you know, like Brian Windhorst has said, it's a place where he could be a playmaker, like a number one playmaker if he wants to play that way. And if I'm Yanis, I'm like, hey, really? Oh, okay. And LeBron, Giannis, Bam has its complications, but here's where In Mitchell Harden, LeBron, too big, says its complications. Where I've landed on this is LeBron is still so good and so smart and so versatile because of his size that he's just going to help whatever team he goes to. And if the fit isn't perfect, so be it. Like, you're not going to find. Like, we're. I think we're overthinking some of this. Like, he's. He. He is just that good and proved last year as a third option for 20, 25 games, whatever it was, that he's pretty malleable. And. And I think it'll. I think it'll work wherever he goes to varying degrees. That's all.
- [08:05]
Rob Mahoney
I. I really don't have any questions about whether the Miami situation would work relatively. Like, the Heat would be really good. They would be in contention for, if not the entire east, and certainly advancing several rounds in the Eastern Conference playoffs. I just kind of wonder if at the end of the trade road for Giannis, after these years of wanting to get to the next team or thinking about the next team, he finally gets there and then has to share creative responsibility. And also Bam has to share creative responsibility with someone who is as prominent as LeBron, someone who is as gifted and brilliant on the court as LeBron. Like, it's a blessing to have him as part of your team, but it forces you into a different kind of role just by his existence there. And I'm not quite sure that's what Giannis thought he was signing up for in a trade to the Heat in the first place.
- [08:47]
Zach Lowe
I'm assuming they will check with him and his agent, who's also Bam's agent, before doing anything in this regard. Although. Although Riley may just not care. Like, Riley's already told Thanasis, hey, buddy, look elsewhere, man. Like, we don't. We don't need you here as our cheerleader. Like, you're going to look at all the all the bros, you got to look elsewhere. Okay, here's what we're going to do. We are going to do what I'm calling the relegation zone draft. And it's not necessarily all these teams are going to be so bad they're going to be in the relegation zone. It's just that based on where they are starting after where they finished in the standings last season and what's happened in the off season, here are teams who kind of are starting at the bottom and are either clearly aimed that way or could aim that way if things go badly. So we're going to look at nine teams, and the nine teams are in the East, Washington, Brooklyn, bringing up the standings. So I remember all my teams. Washington, Brooklyn, Chicago, Milwaukee. In the west, Sacramento, Memphis, Dallas, Pelicans, Clippers, tbd. We don't even know who's on the freaking team.
- [09:57]
Rob Mahoney
True. Shout out.
- [09:58]
Zach Lowe
My boy Lipton and my boy Katz over there. Keep it up, boys. And we're just going to go through these teams rapid fire. And the draft is just purely Intrigue based. I said it could be your Intrigue could be based on anything. It could be based on one player. It could be based on, hey, I actually think this team could be pretty good this year. It could be based on they have a really interesting trade candidate. It could be based on I have absolutely no idea what they're doing or if they're even aware that the offseason has started and that player transactions are allowed. Could be any of those things. That. And then we'll just sort of rapid fire through them. So I'm generous. Host. I'll give you the first pick, Rob. We got the. You get the number one pick.
- [10:41]
Rob Mahoney
I am somewhat surprising myself in selecting the Memphis Grizzlies as the number one pick at the Intrigue draft. How do you feel about the Grizzlies, Zach?
- [10:50]
Zach Lowe
I feel angry because they were also my number one picks in the Intrigue draft. Well, screw you, Rob. Okay? I don't want to give you the number one pick anymore, but you can take it. Make the case for the Memphis Grizzlies, who, by the way, I'm just going to say FanDuel has just released. Maybe not just released. I just noticed them refreshed over unders. The Memphis over under on FanDuel as of now. And their roster is probably finished barring a little, like, wave Delo trade. Kcp Wave and stretch. Kcp. Whatever it's going to be. They are. Where the hell did they go? They are 27 and a half over
- [11:31]
Rob Mahoney
under so a slight bump up from last year.
- [11:34]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, I don't even know what the record was last year, but it was bad. So make the case. Why are you so excited about this 27 and a half win team?
- [11:41]
Rob Mahoney
So even if they do those things you mentioned, you know, potentially waiver buyout, dlo, waiver buyout, kcp, all of the above. This is a shocking number of NBA players on this roster. Like a shocking number of good, interesting young guys, guys who we've had a little time with or maybe in the case of some of the reserves who came over from the Jazz. We just want to see an expanded opportunities. And I'm looking at this group and I'm just like, this is a dizzying collection of just kind of baseline talent more than honestly a lot of playoff teams have. And it's anchored by Cam Boozer who seems like a legit standard bearing rookie. Right. Like a guy who does not make a lot of mistakes, who knows where to be, who knows how to play, is the kind of big who I think is going to make the decent guards on this team that much better by making their jobs easier. With his ability to facilitate and also make some of the bigs here that much more solid in the way they finish around the rim because of his connecting passes. I just like the way that I don't know how all this fits together because there's frankly too many guys to play. We have no idea what the rotation would even look like. But that possibility alone has me very intrigued.
- [12:45]
Zach Lowe
They were number one with the bullet for me. I just could not be more excited to watch this team play. I think that 27 and a half number is low and it's a little early for the Zach Billhouse over under spot, which we're going to do in the fall. Maybe we might be changing the location of that for one time only. We'll see. I just lock in the over now for Memphis. If this stays at 27 and a half, I think they're going to be incredibly annoying to play against depth in the regular season we've seen is powerful. Now I will say the evisceration of out and out tanking is going to hurt all of these teams and make you maybe gravitate toward the under. I just think this team has legit talent. Like I joked a couple months ago that if you took like I like if we, if we massage the numbers the right way. So if we took Ty Jerome's whatever, what did he play like 10, 15, 20 games last year and they were like crazy and we took Zach Edie's whatever games last year and they were crazy. And their net rating with him was like +18 or something bizarro like that. And we just project a little bit. A lot above expectation development for like Cedric Coward and Jalen Wells, both of whom I expect will start. I bet we could create a projection system where it's like the Grizzlies are expected to win 55 games if we just completely over index. I'd like Zach 80. That's exactly what he'll do for 82 games and I think he's on track to be ready to start the season. From what I've heard Ty Drop like I don't know if is Ty Jerome starting. They have Scotty Pippen Jr. Is awesome. Spencer's pretty good. They've just got a lot like I forgot that Jeremy Grant was on the team until I started doing the deal. Like a completely useful player who might be a backup for them now if they're going to start Coward, Boozer Edie, Beef Stew is here. Quinton Post is here.
- [14:27]
Rob Mahoney
They have so many bigs like I who is going to play center for this team? I genuinely don't know.
- [14:32]
Zach Lowe
Edie Stu Post Stu could play a little bit of four. I mean like can Omax Prosper get minutes?
- [14:38]
Rob Mahoney
Come on, let's.
- [14:40]
Zach Lowe
Can Taylor Hendrick get minutes? Like these guys are. Can G.G. jackson Jr. Get minutes? Like they have a lot of guys on the team. I think they're going to and and I they seem committed based on how they played last season and at summer league to this just like everyone's going to play four minute shifts and we're just going to be like rapid fire hockey. Subs in and out. I'm all in. I'm all in. Grizzlies, Western Conference finals.
- [15:02]
Rob Mahoney
Let's go. I'm glad we talked ourselves into that. I mean I do think if you are going to go rapid fire substitutions, get a lot of guys in and out. They have such contrasting styles where I mean you mentioned a guy like Omax Prosper who is quite good for them playing small ball five, just throwing him in off of a Zach Edie stint and the whiplash that opposing teams would have to go through. Like okay, now we have to totally recalibrate the way we think about this team we're playing against. I really hope he gets some opportunity still. I really hope Hendricks doesn't get buried here because I could see a possibility where that could happen. But he was really fun for them after the trade. I Just I think that the combination of Wells and Coward and Boozer is so rock solid as young cores go that I'm even more intrigued in like the high variance guys. I'm even more intrigued in Gigi Jackson. I'm even more intrigued in like, which of these kind of variables can pop in a way that we might not be expecting. Because otherwise it just feels like as. As a young team goes like pretty adult. You know, there's a lot of guys here who just kind of know what they're doing.
- [16:02]
Zach Lowe
It's a strange phenomenon in that I think Cam Boozer, a rookie, is already the best player on the team and you may disagree with that. I think he'll be the best player on the team this year and I think the team will actually be pretty decent. That's a rare thing to say, like a rookie is the best player and I think they're going to be better than 27 and a half wins. Yeah, I just think he's going to be awesome. He played some three in summer league and looked completely comfortable because he just has a do it all offensive skill set. He looked actually passable to me defensively. Now again, it's summer league. He'll be challenged a little bit more in the regular season. And this team, they're going to have as many as three first round picks in the next draft, including their own and Utah's top five protected, which annoyed them because it can't fall in the top five anymore. That's why it's top five protected, because the Jazz have picked in the top five two years in a row and can't pick in the top five three years in a row anymore. And a bunch of other draft assets. I think they've come out of this Morant, Bane, Triple J core about as well positioned as possible.
- [17:05]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, the hall of picks a lot of guys to take Flyers on and take chances on. See who kind of like drifts to the top of this mix. It's a cool opportunity. I, I think it's going to be one of those, even if it is not to our projection system's fullest effect, the kind of developmental system that's just fun to watch game to game and will actually be a good use of everybody's time in terms of filtering out which of these guys are actual high level players right now.
- [17:30]
Zach Lowe
I think, by the way, I think Edie is good. If he can stay healthy, he's definitely good.
- [17:34]
Rob Mahoney
It's just. Yeah, I mean, that's one of the biggest ifs in Memphis basketball. Certainly. I, I Would love to believe that that's true, even if it's not true. I mean, we talked about the center depth and the options that they have here to just get through the season, but yeah, that combination of getting him actually on the floor and having an actual point guard rotation, I think he's going to just do wonders for this team. Surprise, surprise.
- [17:55]
Zach Lowe
And to be clear, I don't expect Zag Eddie to play even if he starts the season healthy, which I think he's on track to do. I don't expect him to play more than 55 to 60 games. And he's not. It's not like he's going to be playing 30 minutes a game, but I think in his minutes he's going to be a pretty goddamn productive offensive player and like big enough on defense to be a pain in the butt and get rebounds. Protect the rim. By the way, have you seen Quentin Post's contract from the much ballyhoo 3 year, 30 year, 3 year, $30 million offer sheet?
- [18:21]
Rob Mahoney
No. Are there, are there some non guarantees on there or what's going on?
- [18:24]
Zach Lowe
The whole thing after this year is non guaranteed. It's 9 million guaranteed this year. 8.550 guaranteed. 27, 28. Same amount, zero guaranteed team option. 28, 29. But good for Quentin Post. Okay, it's my turn to pick. Unless you have other Memphis thoughts.
- [18:40]
Rob Mahoney
No, let's go
- [18:43]
Zach Lowe
again. We're. We're drafting based on intrigue. Okay. Not quite quality, not fun, just intrigue. The only move the New Orleans Pelicans have made this offseason is signing DeAndre Jordan to a bizarro 2, 2 year minimum contract. Other than that, it's unclear if they realize that the off season has started and yet this team, what did they win last year? I mean 20 something games. 26 and 56. And they did nothing. Now they had health issues up and down the roster. Dejante Murray barely played. Herb Jones and Trey Murphy both missed some games. Zion was actually reliable. And I just, I mean, I'm intrigued about their phone line situation and cell phone reception. I'm intrigued by that.
- [19:28]
Rob Mahoney
Okay.
- [19:29]
Zach Lowe
I. I'm not sure what's going on. I am intrigued that there's a. There is a lot, there are a lot of interesting players here. We have very little to no information about how well some of those players fit together. And it's unclear if any of them, other than Derek Queen and Jeremiah Fierce are like long for this team. Dejounte. Murray's contract is up fairly soon, I think. Let me bring up their cap sheet. Zion has. This is the last guaranteed year left on Zion's contract design to Murray as a player option for next season. 30.7. That's a lot. Jordan Poole is expiring. Who cares? And like, we just don't know things like, are you going to start Zion? And Derrick Queen, are you committed to Zion long term? Again, this is the last guaranteed season of Zion Williamson's contract. Like Fiers Murphy, Herb Jones, Queen, that feels like the youngish core of the team. They only played 220 minutes together those four last year and they were not good. The Zion Queen combination at the 4 and the 5 looked pretty unplayable defensively, minus 11 per 100 possessions. Does that mean you don't start Derrick Queen? Does that mean you start Zion at the three and Eves me see at the five and Derrick Queen is whatever he is. Something they tried last year, I have no earthly idea. But they. They do control their pick. In fact, they have a. They have kind of like a super pick. If I'm reading this right. They have. I'm going to read it to you verbatim. New Orleans will receive the more favorable of its 2027 first round pick.
- [21:04]
Rob Mahoney
Okay.
- [21:05]
Zach Lowe
And Milwaukee's 2027 first round pick. And Atlanta will receive the lesser of the two, protected for selections 1 to 4. If this pick falls within that range, 1 to 4. New Orleans gets both picks, their own pick and the Milwaukee pick.
- [21:20]
Rob Mahoney
That would be incredible.
- [21:22]
Zach Lowe
So I just have no idea what to make of this team. They have a new coach, Jamal Mosley.
- [21:27]
Rob Mahoney
What.
- [21:28]
Zach Lowe
What's going on here, Rob? But there's interesting players like Dejante Murray. Look, all right, when he came back last year. I don't know what's going on here.
- [21:35]
Rob Mahoney
There's interesting players. I guess it's just. Are you okay? You're picking the Pelicans in Intrigue, your first team?
- [21:44]
Zach Lowe
Well, I mean, are you okay? Is a really loaded question.
- [21:47]
Rob Mahoney
I'm sorry.
- [21:49]
Zach Lowe
Maybe I'm not okay. Maybe you don't know. Maybe the Mets are going to trade Francisco Lindor and my whole family's going to fall apart because I don't know. I don't know, Rob.
- [21:56]
Rob Mahoney
I just think if we're talking Intrigue, my first question, and maybe this is oversimplifying, it is like, what changed? And the answer right now with the Pelicans is absolutely nothing.
- [22:05]
Zach Lowe
Is it possible that I just wanted to kind of make fun of the Pelicans at the front of the podcast? May. Maybe it is. They do control all their picks. And all their swaps. I just don't know, like, what the plan is. No one around the league knows what the plan is. No one knows, like, whether we should call Joe Dumars or. Or Troy Weaver or who, like, what's going on. So I just don't. And. And sadly enough. Did you see Will Gilroy from the Athletic is moving out of New Orleans to cover the Rockets? New Orleans is just hemorrhaged. Like, there's no national outlet covering the Pelicans anymore. And they're just like, they still have. Remember when Zion Williamson was so interesting that people flocked there, no pun intended, to cover the Pelicans? What is Zion Williamson? He played a lot last year.
- [22:50]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. Played very well. I thought Dejounte Murray came back and, like, got his feet under him. You know, Trey Murphy got to push his game forward. There were, like, a lot of little things in terms of the markers that were reasons for optimism, and they resulted in this team being very, very bad, even still. And so it's like, they exist to me more, I would say less as a basketball team than as just, like, a constant looming trade rumor, as, like, hypothetical grease for the trade machine whenever they would like to get involved in such a thing. They just don't seem terribly interested in movement right now. And I'll say this, like, what Jamal Mosley did when he first came to Orlando in terms of getting that team to buy in defensively, something that could really help the Pelicans, frankly, in a lot of different aspects, like, if he can get them to that level defensively that he did at the outset with the Magic. Great. There's also a lot of evidence that suggests, if you want, like, a great deal of offensive sophistication, say, for example, trying to fit all of these weird, awkward players together who are, like, talented, but we really don't know if they work. He's maybe not your guy for that particular job. So I really don't know how to expect more of the Pelicans, given that they've done nothing and resolve nothing as far as, like, the actual problems of their roster.
- [23:59]
Zach Lowe
And I'm not really sure that the number one thing that Mosley brought to Orlando, which was, we're going to try really hard and be super physical defensively.
- [24:08]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [24:09]
Zach Lowe
Even fits with, like, it's true. Williamson, Queen, front line. Like, it just doesn't seem built to play that way. And I'm not sure what their vehicle to being, like, an okay defense really is schematically personnel wise, any of that. Um, here's the Thing about the west and tell me if you disagree. I think like, 7 to 10 in the west is pretty open in the sense that, like, we can pen in if you want the same top six in whatever order from last year. Oklahoma City, we know, San Antonio, Denver, another team who's not done much of anything in the off season, but they're Denver, the Rockets, the Wolves. I think the Lakers will be rock solid. I don't love what they did in the off season, but I think they'll win enough games after that. It's like the teams that were in this range last year, Portland, they all of a sudden have, like, some questions, including, like, what the hell is going on with their arena situation? And by the way, I am not well versed in it, like the local guys there. I've been reading the stories about the county, the state, the city, the lease agreement, all of this. Portland is an awesome NBA market with some fun NBA history. The NBA needs to not fuck this up. Do not let this guy come in here and hijack this franchise and remove it from Portland and leave the Pacific less naked of NBA teams until and unless Seattle comes in. Portland's an awesome market. Their fans are better than this. They don't deserve this. Phoenix, like, we'll see. They do some interesting things, you know, we'll see how, how, how good they are. I think, like, depending on LeBron, I think there's like some pretty severe downside risk in Golden State right now with how that team is built. So I. All of this is to say I actually think one of these teams that we're going to talk about could be like, oh, they have home court in the play in. How did that happen? I think the west, the east is better than the West. The east is not. The two best teams are in the West.
- [25:59]
Rob Mahoney
Yes.
- [26:00]
Zach Lowe
Although the champions are.
- [26:01]
Rob Mahoney
Yes. It's a fair caveat.
- [26:02]
Zach Lowe
Yeah. The east has 11 legit good teams, and the West, I think, is a little shallower than that.
- [26:09]
Rob Mahoney
It's crazy to think I can't remember the last time when that was the case. I'm just, I'm so used to pretty much comprehensive Western Conference dominance as these things go, relatively speaking. But yeah, that. That spot you isolated, there's not a lot of reason for optimism in terms of any of those teams making a huge jump forward as far as, like, the Blazers and the Suns and the warriors in that mix. And so I do think one of these teams that we're talking about is going to mess around and get pretty favorable playing position. I just would Be shocked if it's the Pelicans given everything that we've seen from them. And maybe that's aspirational on my part, because I think the thing I would love to see from New Orleans most, and maybe from Jamal Mosley the most, is just a commitment to playing Derrick Queen more like the whole situation in, like, less April, more March. He got in more at the end of, like, very end of the season. But why in a season going nowhere, is Derek Queen playing, like, 20 minutes a game like that? That feels like antithetical to everything the Pelicans should be about at this stage. And I frankly don't know if he and Zion work together. I don't know if they ever could work together. I'm just not basing my future off Zion Williamson anymore from the Pelicans. And so, like, they need to get Fears and Queen in particular on the court together as much as they possibly can to see if that's anything that's workable at all, because the rest of it just hasn't gone anywhere.
- [27:25]
Zach Lowe
That's why I mentioned that Fears Murphy Jones Queen quartet is like. That feels like a structurally like. Like normal sound.
- [27:35]
Rob Mahoney
Yes.
- [27:36]
Zach Lowe
Setup to try to figure out what you really have in Fears and Queen, which you. You did not have a first round pick in this last draft, by the way. That trade is simplified now is like Kingston Fleming's for Derrick Queen. It's not just that they traded the Pacers their pick back during the NBA Finals before seeing how the NBA Finals turned out. To get a second pick in that draft to then bundle those picks and move up to get Derrick Queen. The Pacers pick turned out to be very, very good. Yeah. So anyway. And you mentioned Zion, like, he was very good last year, but I talked a lot about this on the podcast. He was sort of. It was a new world for him where, like, okay, we have this center who's going to initiate a lot of offense. Am I in the dunker spot now? Am I ducking in? Do I not get to, like, there was not nearly as much Point Zion as there was during his prime. And it was. And it's not like he's offering you any shooting of any kind to space the floor. It was just. It was just a little bit, you know, wonky. All right, so you made fun of my pick. That's fine. You can pick third.
- [28:38]
Rob Mahoney
You're welcome to make fun of this pick. I might make fun of it myself if the circumstances were any different. But I am here as shocked as anyone that I will be selecting The Chicago Bulls with my second pick. I think this is the highest I've ranked them in any exercise of any kind since. I don't know, in the last 15 years. It's been a tough run for the Bulls, but we are now here, hopefully on the other side of it.
- [29:01]
Zach Lowe
Bryson Graham regime is in place and I assume at least 70% of the reason you are doing this is because of Caleb Wilson.
- [29:09]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, holy shit. Like, I've become a believer so quickly. I think here's what it is with Caleb Wilson. For me, he is the bizarro Pat Williams in that he looks the part and he dazzles in a way that makes you want to believe that this is real. Like, that. The high watermarks of everything that he can do. It's like I am talking myself into it every single day, hoping that he turns into some, like, super wing Paul Georgie combo forward who's also a rim protector and a switchable defender. Like, I just. He could be so much. And really, it is him, but it's also the combination of him and modest Bruiselles together. Another prospect I'm really high on where if those guys can prove or show any indication that they can, like, amplify each other, this thing's going to start going somewhere pretty quickly.
- [29:53]
Zach Lowe
You nailed it. Those guys at the forward spots are the reason I had Chicago pretty high, too. I was going to pick Washington first, but. But I had them pretty high. Those two at the forward spots are, if they can sort of just be, like, almost interchangeable. Like, we can both do a little bit of everything. So depending on how the possession is flowing, I'm on the ball, I'm setting a screen, I'm spotting up the three. I'm attacking a closeout, running like hell in transition. I was super impressed with Caleb Wilson's passing in transition in summer league. I do think, and none of this, none of this is to say that Caleb Wilson won't be awesome. I think he will be awesome. I do think I was a little less, like, blown away by the summer league stuff because the. The threes, we'll see, right? Like, he made as many threes in one summer league game as he did it an entire college basketball season. At UNCLE I. I had the flashback to, like, Zion's first NBA game where he made like, five threes and everyone was like, oh, my God, Zion Conchuis. And he just did not make any for, like, two years. We'll see. I thought his off. I thought his off the dribble stuff. You mentioned, like, playing the three Being a Paul George being a ball handler, I thought it was like a little stilted and very reliant on athleticism and just like lanky arms and awkwardly flailing towards the rim and getting calls. Part of the reason he got a lot of calls is because he is super athletic. He does have super long arms. People hit him and he forces people to hit him. So I'm just interested to see how that sort of development of like Caleb Wilson, full blown three in the NBA actually goes. Yeah, but yes, I, I couldn't, I, I'm very excited for this team. I think they're built to play super fast and just be fun to watch on offense. I don't think they're going to be very good. Let me see what their fanduel line is. I mean, I, I, I would not. It was in the twenties somewhere. They don't organize this in Alphabet 26 and a half. That feels about right to me because as exciting as they are, if you're, if you're going to start Josh Giddy, this is just projected Josh Giddy, Norm Powell, good signing.
- [32:00]
Rob Mahoney
Yes.
- [32:01]
Zach Lowe
Zealous. Wilson, Claxton. And then off the bench you have Tre Jones at the point, rock solid. Jalen Smith at the 5, rock solid as a backup 5. Everything in between that is just like a big old shoulder shrug slash, really. I got to put in Patrick Williams again. I got to put in Isaac Okoro again. I think they're going to be like, Dilly is still here. And it's like I think they're going to be pretty bad, but interesting bad.
- [32:29]
Rob Mahoney
And that in itself is just a world of change from where the Bulls have been. And I think some of it's that for me, I'm just so used to being down and sour on this team and there'll be two weeks where they're kind of fun to watch and then it'll get just kind of real sad really quickly. And Caleb Wilson changes a lot of that also. Like I, I think this combination of players makes me a little more excited to see Josh Giddey this year and, and some of it might even be Thiago Splitter in the coaching job there where Giddy and Denny Avdi are very different creators and drivers. But as far as like, how do you make the most of a sort of like non traditional point of attack? We've seen some evidence that that could be the case. I think one thing you also need if you're going to have a non traditional creator handling the ball a lot is like, who are the guys around him who have like zero hesitation in their games. Norm Powell has never hesitated in his entire life to take a shot. Like the aggressiveness and the focus of a guy like him on the wings plus what you're getting from Wilson, like I think those are the kinds of guys you want around Josh Giddy and so Josh Giddy, not my favorite player. Think he's good at what he does but clearly limited. This to me feels like a fuller picture that could actually maximize what makes him unique and special.
- [33:36]
Zach Lowe
And everything you said about Caleb Wilson defensively, switchability, oh my God. Rim protection, that's all going to be legit. He is going to be an awesome multi positional force and eventually they're going to build this team to switch all over the place. They already are kind of starting that with Claxton at the 5, although his switchability has kind of waned a little bit. Yeah, I think I'll have a post Brooklyn bump in effort and engagement.
- [34:00]
Rob Mahoney
I was wondering that because I mean it's been years now since he has had frankly any reason to try and he's still super young. I don't want to like write him off but I, I don't just take it on faith that all that's just there and not paper it over with bad habits. I think we're going to need to see it a little bit.
- [34:15]
Zach Lowe
I don't disagree. I will say screening and rolling hard to the rim with the collection of ball handlers that were allegedly going to pass to him in the last two years I think probably sapped his energy a little bit. And look in summer league there were possessions that were playing Swain. I'm just going to ignore that Swain shot 13% at Summer League. Like it was a little alarming.
- [34:39]
Rob Mahoney
Oh my gosh.
- [34:40]
Zach Lowe
Finishing was a little alarming. Yeah, but they were asking him to play the point and like stuff he's not going to do. But they would have Swain Wilson, Noah Senge who finally got some real minutes in summer league looked like I'm like mildly curious. Offensively it was kind of a mess and a center and you could just see like the collective length on the floor defensively was like it was a real obstacle for these teams trying to arms everywhere and I don't know what any of those players are going to be in terms of swaying and a Senge is a little clumsy I thought offensively but has some length and some skill. I just think they're going to be fun to watch and bad. And guess what, that's not a bad place for them to be. Would you like to have I.O. or Kobe White or more than you got in return for them? Sure. Did they. Did they, like, blow every transaction from Levine to Rose and all that? Yes, they did. But they are here. They control all their picks. They have easy paths to cap space. They are a sleeping giant again, which is good for the league. All right, let's take a quick break, and then I'll make my next pick. Oh, by the way, speaking of Caleb Wilson and free throws, what did you think of the 13 free throw for all the points gambit in summer league, which they've also done, I believe, in the G League before?
- [35:50]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. I can't say I have a particularly strong take on it. Conceptually. I understand what it would do for the game. In practice, I found myself, is this really even worth changing anything? Like is. Here's where I'm coming down. We can either do this, or we can just cut every replay review in half, and that would save just as much, if not more time. So why don't we just do that instead and keep the flow of basketball? Like, the flow of basketball.
- [36:16]
Zach Lowe
I. It. I'm. I need. I need a month. I need a month before I weigh in again on replay and sports because I'm so angry about various. I was already ready in the NBA. It's just like, we just. I just can't have this anymore. I'm ready to live with human error again.
- [36:34]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [36:34]
Zach Lowe
And then the disgrace of the World cup made me want no more reviews. Did you have a team in the World Cup? No.
- [36:45]
Rob Mahoney
Mostly watching dispassionately, I have to say, if that at all. Mostly just checking in here and there. But as those things go, like, calling off sides by, like, three hairs on a video replay review.
- [36:57]
Zach Lowe
Don't get me started on hairs and offsides. Don't get me started.
- [37:01]
Rob Mahoney
Come to the wrong place.
- [37:02]
Zach Lowe
I was cheering in the end. I was cheering for Spain because I thought they were the only mega power team that did not benefit from complete bullshit officiating at any point in the tournament. I have just enough knowledge to be dangerous and stupid. I hated. Like, I thought English fans. Come at me. Okay. Come at me. I thought the referees literally stole the quarterfinal game from Norway. They're like, we don't want Norway to win. We want England to win. We're going to disallow this goal on an egregious flop. We're going to ignore the ball. Maybe. Maybe not hitting the. I just. I. Okay. I can't. Okay. I'm going to make another pick. Now I'm going to pivot from what my pick was going to be because I want to talk about the Dallas Mavericks. So I'm going to pick Dallas who I think is clearly the best team of this group. They're over under is set at a surprisingly low 34 and a half wins. Again, I think that reflects the. You're just not going to walk into 15 easy wins against teams that are trying to lose anymore. This team obviously is interesting for tons of reasons. They have the reigning rookie of the year. You and I both voted for him in the end they have Kyrie Irving coming back from injury as both I think a very popular and important member of this team if they want to compete for a playoff spot. And like I said, I think a high end play in spot is just sitting there for them.
- [38:17]
Rob Mahoney
This is the team I was thinking of when you brought that up like they, they really could find themselves in that position in part. Just like going from with all due respect, like the Brandon Williams level ball handlers to having Kyrie Irving back on the court is just like such a monumental difference in the baseline functioning of this team.
- [38:33]
Zach Lowe
I think it will help Cooper flag a lot obviously. And so like I. Kyrie Irving could be the most interesting trade piece on the market during the season. I just would not rush into that discussion because I think this team, partly because they don't control their first round pick is. Is very motivated to try to make the playoffs. And they obviously just are stacked with combo forwards. In addition to drafting Bryce Johnson, they picked up Santi Aldama and they just picked up Zachary reesache, the number one pick in the 2023 NBA Draft or 2024, some recent NBA draft over Alex Sar, Steph Castle and Reed Shepherd. In what looms as just a massive sliding doors moment for the spurs, maybe for the Rockets, definitely for the Hawks. Not quite as much I don't think for the Wizards. But having Recesset over Castle and shepherd over Castle is. And having Castle fall to Victor Wembanyama's team as a result is just like we can't undo that. Like the amount that, that swung the balance of power in the league and in the West. I mean this team, look, they're obviously depending somewhat on Derek Lively's like, like ability to run and jump. Yeah, they obviously just have a lot of. Of good players. You know P.J. washington's a good player. The guy Naji Marshall is a good player. Really good. They have probably too many combo forwards, but that's fine. They picked up Marcus Sasser for nothing, which I liked. And they're just going to be like a competent team across the board. And they have two very high end players in Kyrie Irving, Cooper Flag, which is where for this group. So obviously they're intriguing for that reason. What did you think of. Let's talk Lou Dort. Zachary should say second round picks.
- [40:21]
Rob Mahoney
Sure.
- [40:22]
Zach Lowe
What do we think of this? Where do you, what is, what's your most interesting sort of angle on that trade?
- [40:27]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, I think from the Mavericks perspective it's just they've proven to be one of the most opportunistic teams of the summer, like since Messiah Giri took over, picking up Santi Aldama for what's like a heavily protected first and some pocket lint and then getting in on this trade for. Look, Zachary was maybe at best invisible for large portions of last season. It's a real problem in his game. Like he doesn't have the kind of force in his creation that insists its way into the action. He can just kind of like fall by the wayside. Maybe that can be fixed, maybe it can't. But it's exactly the kind of opportunity the Mav should be all over and just like see if this works. See if he can play. See if a guy who at his best is like a nice flow forward can work off of Cooper Flag and work off of Kyrie Irving. I think there's reason to believe that that might be possible. And if all it really costs you to get in on that is like Ryan Nemhard and some like transactional ballast, like I just think that's an opportunity that's probably too good to pass up for them.
- [41:22]
Zach Lowe
It's a no brainer for Dallas despite the fact that Reese's Shay, because he's the number one pick, makes about the mid level exception. This is not like a trivial piece of salary to put on the books. Now they have some optionality with that. Like they don't have to pick up his option. They could decline it and still resign him and all of that. You know, he has shot 36% on threes in two NBA seasons. That's like not bad. And it feels bad. And it felt bad because when the games got tough, teams clearly just decided we're guarding you with our weakest player and we're just going to ignore you. And Quinn Snyder yanked him out of the starting five and then basically stopped playing him in the postseason against the Knicks. Uh, let's, let's do, let's flip it around. Would you have done this Trade. If you were the Hawks, it feels
- [42:11]
Rob Mahoney
like selling low on Risa J for sure, but they have so much else going on. I think I might. And, and here's. Here's the reason why, like it's a very simple way to view these things in terms of how you evaluate teams, but it's one I think about is like what are you like to play against? And I think the Hawks were establishing themselves as like a really good, really formidable team. A team that knew what they were doing, that finally figured out like how to play through Jale Johnson and CJ and Nikhil really effectively. But what they've got going on on defense, like Dyson Daniels, Nikhil Alexander Walker, now Lou Dort, Kingston Fleming's in this group too. Like that is a full on fucking lockdown. Like that is handcuffs and a straight jacket and a weight around your neck in a water tank level perimeter defense. I think that might be more valuable to them where they are now than waiting and seeing with Zachary when they would know better than anybody that maybe it's just not there for him.
- [43:04]
Zach Lowe
It's clearly a win now move for a team that I don't think is. Is quite ready to win at the level of like, oh, they can win the east now kind of win, but it's a win now move. Think it's a Quinn Snyder move. Like he clearly lost faith in Recesset and from what I had heard, like Dallas was knocking on the door about Recessey when. When it kind of seemed like the Hawks might be amenable and they had to find a third team because the Mavs did not have much of what the Hawks would have wanted. And in came Oklahoma City, who is now under the second apron. And the Hawks have picked off two of the Oklahoma City casualties, Aaron Wiggins and Lou Dort now, both of whom I think will really help them. Dort is a really. And again like so low on Recessey. Yeah, it's like a stunning admission of we fucked up the draft. Like stunning and early. You almost admire the earliness of it. It feels too early for me and yet I don't. He has shown me nothing particular. He got better at like nothing from year one to year two. He does not do enough with. I think he'll be a good NBA player. I. I think he'll be good, a good solid role player, which is not what he was drafted to be a number one, but I think he'll be a good solid role player. I don't think he will ever be good enough because of his lack of Ball skills showing. So far he's only 21 to. To like make the Hawks really, really regret this trade. That said, I think the Dort fit is going to be tricky for them. It's another sort of shaky shooter to pile on top of Dyson and Jalen Johnson. They're lucky both their centers, a congu and Jock Lando can shoot, or in Lando's case, kind of shoot well enough to space the floor.
- [44:47]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [44:47]
Zach Lowe
And they immediately face the question like they caught lightning in a bottle. Starting cj, Nikhil, Dyson, Daniels and Jalen Johnson. Like, do. Do you think they like. My hunch would be they start Dort and bring C.J. off the bench. Because I just think, oh, well, I mean, I don't. I don't know.
- [45:05]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, I hadn't even considered it, honestly. CJ was so important to the flow of their offense and like, as a, as a counterbalance even when he wasn't initiating.
- [45:12]
Zach Lowe
And they, they could keep him in the starting five and bring Dort off the bench. And what that would do is, I think if they bring CJ off the bench, they're now facing like. Well, now we're bringing CJ and Flemings in together, two small guards who are going to be challenged a little bit on defense. Although I love the way Flemings looked in summer league, I'm super impressed. And then you also have to answer the question of like, is Dort's best skill not wasted, but minimized a little bit coming off the bench. Like, you get Lou Dort to guard the best guy on the other team.
- [45:41]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [45:42]
Zach Lowe
And is that a little bit marginalized coming off the bench? The other thing about Dort, aside from the shooting, is I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on this. The Hawks, they just want to play this like, random, fast paced, read and react. Everybody can kind of do everything basketball.
- [45:56]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [45:56]
Zach Lowe
And that's not how Lou Dor plays.
- [45:58]
Rob Mahoney
Like, it's not.
- [45:59]
Zach Lowe
He attacks closeouts now and then, but it's a. It's both. It's somehow both slow and out of control, which is a hard double to hit. And so I don't know how he fits in that, like, is he going to come up and set a ball screen and roll into space and make plays like all the other guards on the team do. I. I don't. I get what they're doing, which is re Sachet is a sunk cost who makes a lot of money. Get us a player who can help us now who Quinn Snider is going to trust. He's on an expiring deal. We still have all the flexibility in the world to flip him and bundle assets if somebody big becomes available. If they extend him for like a lot of money, like if this, if this becomes a four year, $100 million extension, I'm not going to love this for the Hawks. I, I and it would, it would veer into like I maybe just wouldn't have done this territory.
- [46:44]
Rob Mahoney
Well, some of the reason I wouldn't love it is Lou Dort was not the same defender last season that he has been historically. I thought he took like a slight step down in terms of just making like even more erratic plays, taking some gambles, taking some weird angles. Like I just think the balance had clearly shifted in terms of Case and Wallace being their best option on a lot of opponents and Lou Dorrit kind of falling into the background. I would say the same is true of Dyson Daniels like as far as who you want on opposing stars. Which is why if it were my call, I would bring Lou Jord off the bench for that reason. And I think, I think the value in having him is less like clearly the fit issues are what they are. You're gonna have to find a way to navigate systemically who he is in such a free flowing offense. I share your concern, but I think the value of if you're an opposing star, you do not get a minute on the floor without one of these guys in your jersey. Like that to me is valuable and I think yes, you want him against top line opponents, but every rotation is staggering stars. Every rotation is trying to stretch guys out and it's like if you can target guys during those second quarter minutes where it's like they are expecting opposing stars to finally get theirs to get their opportunity to really cook and incomes Lou Dort as like the, like the antidote to that. I actually think that could be a pretty powerful thing.
- [47:59]
Zach Lowe
Yeah. And you could do, I mean like we, we sort of oversimplify. All the coaches will tell me all the time you're fixating too much on who starts. It's about who finishes and how we can stagger minutes and how the rotations are juggle. It is interesting. I like Wiggins for them is sort of just a free, free money.
- [48:13]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [48:14]
Zach Lowe
And they needed a little dose of, of something off the bench. We'll see what Zubi and Asa Newell can really give them off the bench. I think they're going to be a good solid team. It's, that's going to, it's just going to be an interesting bet. And I just think they concluded this is not a good fit with Ritochet. Like he doesn't fit with our priorities, our coach, etc. Very quickly, Oklahoma City Ducks the second apron. They lose three valuable bench players. Aaron Wiggins, who was really, really good for them in the title run and then kind of faded out of the rotation in the playoffs last year. Lou Dort, a starter who we talked about as early as November, December, did not seem like a good fit for the spurs matchup and was taken down in minutes and they got destroyed in his minutes against the Spurs. And then Isaiah Joe, who would always fall to the fringes of their rotation in the playoffs. They still face enormous Bills going forward once they extend Case and Wallace depending on like team options for some of their young guys. And I don't know if you saw Sam press his interview with the Oklahoman.
- [49:17]
Rob Mahoney
I sure did.
- [49:18]
Zach Lowe
What was no, you're laughing. What was notable about that to you?
- [49:21]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, I don't know that I've ever seen a general manager get in front of what feels like an ownership promise in this particular way of look, Lou Dord had been a trade candidate for exactly this reason. Like OKC was close enough to the second apron. Lou Dord's contract was the most convenient way to get there if they wanted to make that kind of trade. But Sam pry going on the record, something he does pretty infrequently, especially in this kind of interview setting and saying overtly, this is a financial decision and it was made with the assumption that we're going to be more competitive and pay out more down the line. We're saying all the quiet parts out loud in a way that I really appreciate.
- [49:59]
Zach Lowe
I was. I very much appreciated was I don't. I don't know how to read it because Sam has been there forever. He has the leeway to do whatever he wants. He has presumably a fantastic relationship with ownership and I would guess that ownership did not read that and express any shock surprise that he said it out loud. But he did say it is my understanding that the savings we are having now and by being under the tax in some recent years are will be reallocated to future teams. Which is great news for Kayson Wallace. If I'm his agent. I'm like, all right, let's go. And down the line, AJ Mitchell when he becomes extension eligible. I I look obviously Jalen Williams, wing Jalen Williams J Dub needs to stay healthy now because their margin for error has shrunk and look like this was a team that was like ridiculously deep and now spots 10 to 15 which is like talk about a first world problem. Are first round picks and Kendrick Williams and or first round picks that missed all or most of the last season or two seasons in Topic's case. And so they're going to have to play those guys and see what they are which is. That's good. That's what that's like. Good opportunity I think for the Thunder and those players. I still think this would be my favorite to win the championship as of now if everybody's healthy. But the number one seed is there for the spurs to get this year because I don't think the Thunder are going to pile up regular season wins. But I don't know if this is the directive to cut costs and get under the second apron. I don't think any of these players are so essential that it should impact like the Thunders championship equity and it hurts their depth. But if this is what you got to do, you got to do it. It's whatever what they got some picks they got. I don't know. We'll see. We'll get to see Mara and Topic and Sorber and Sturts. Let's go.
- [51:44]
Rob Mahoney
That's the thing. Like some, like some of them may be a little further down the line starts may like take a little time to really be an impact player for them but like Topish could be good and a very different kind of playmaker than they've had as far as like working around Shea and certainly when J. When J Dub was out. I also think like part of the reason the Isaiah Joe move happened in the first place is Jared McCain just like so clearly supplanted him in the first place. Love Isaiah Joe. I think all three of these guys who the Thunder have had to part ways with are valuable players, especially to teams with less expectation than the Thunder have. Then it's like what Isaiah Joe can't do, what Lou Dort can't do, what Aaron Wiggins can't do is just less damning if you're mostly trying to advance in the playoffs as opposed to win everything. And for a championship team to have like three or four question mark guys off the bench, but all question mark guys with lottery pedigrees for the most part. That's a pretty thrilling regular season project to have, especially for people like us who are trying to figure out who they can be, where their ceiling might change. Like I'm not taking it off the table that their depth might be even more impressive next season if those Guys start panning out.
- [52:47]
Zach Lowe
All right, we got five teams left in our draft and it's, it's getting ugly now. The, the teams, the best, the most fun teams are off the board. I'll go. I guess you disagree with me on New Orleans. It's your pick.
- [52:58]
Rob Mahoney
Well, I think there is still one very fun team off on the board. I can only be myself. And so I will select the Washington Wizards.
- [53:05]
Zach Lowe
There you go, baby.
- [53:06]
Rob Mahoney
They gotta be here. Just a radical influx of talent around what was already a fascinating young core. That talent may not be to everyone's liking it. There may be 212 million reasons why. Long term it might not work out. But in the short term, I think the playmaking of Trey Young in particular is just going to do so much for guys like Keshan, guys like Alex Sar, guys like guys like Trey Johnson. In terms of. Everyone in Washington felt overtaxed in terms of how much they were being asked to handle the ball last season. And now you have a great passer if also a flawed defender and everything else that comes with Trae Young setting those guys up in a way that to me is very exciting.
- [53:48]
Zach Lowe
They're a no brainer pick. I actually had them above Dallas, but I just wanted to talk about the trade. They're over. Under is 34 and a half which I don't really know what to do with because if Trae Young and Anthony Davis play 65 games each again, let you can scoff fine like we're. It's. It's July 21st. I can dream of Anthony Davis playing 65 games. Let me do it. That's a pretty like those are two of the top 30 players in the NBA maybe. Is Trey Young a top 30 player? Anthony Davis and his healthy. Anthony Davis is way above that clearly and a great two way player. And they just you know, like you start Trey Young, this wildly exciting rookie AJ Deban who looks ready to contribute immediately on both ends of the floor. He actually defended in summer league. Yeah, Sar and Davis and you just pick of your Koula Bali, Trey Johnson, Keshan George, whoever. Then off the bench like some combination of those guys. Ayton's here for whatever reason. You know, Bob Carrington is still here. Will Riley, like they have real talent. I can see why the numbers are skeptical. It's the Wizards. They're still super young around Trey and AD when AD is not playing. I think defensively they'll be pretty challenged. But there's a lot to like here, don't you think?
- [55:11]
Rob Mahoney
I think there's a lot to like. I think when AD doesn't play, they're going to need to figure out the defense. When he does play, they're going to need to figure out the spacing. If it's him and Sara, especially DeBonso too, who we're going to need to see kind of who he is as an NBA shooter, how all that part works out. But I like they were just such an abysmal offense in terms of acting like a professional basketball team last season. There's a lot of guys whose individual talents I believe in and I'm hoping this can be. You know, we talked about Cooper Flag and kind of who he became by the end of the season. I think part of the reason that was true was the Mavs fast tracked that by like making him their point guard for stretches early in the year and I thought the skill development really paid off later when everything was kind of coming together. I'm wondering if the same can be true of some of what we saw last season from a guy like Keyshawn George, for example. Like it was messy then it's probably still going to be messy. These guys are still young, but in terms of him and Bilal, even Bub Carrington to a degree, I actually think this is going to be like a real big time Will Riley season and we're going to be talking about him differently by the end of the year.
- [56:11]
Zach Lowe
But I can't wait till, I can't wait till that gets aggregated in Washington. NBA Analyst Big time Will Riley season loading. Riley is going to be a problem. Look, Will Riley was a problem in the last two months of the season and he got the summer league and he was like I'm shooting every shot
- [56:27]
Rob Mahoney
and I loved it. And also I think, I mean look, he clearly has some, some on ball juice in a way that is fun to watch and could be good for them. I also think, I think he is a, he's going to be a better spot shooter than he's been now that there's some functioning offense to play off. Like he feels like one of those wings who could be really good coming off the bench and will be, but also could play with Trey and AD and kind of the big boy was starting lineups to the extent that that's an act.
- [56:52]
Zach Lowe
I, I don't think I can take the over on 34 and a half quite yet.
- [56:56]
Rob Mahoney
I think I'm not even asking you to.
- [56:57]
Zach Lowe
Just too good and too deep just
- [56:59]
Rob Mahoney
to take the over on Hope, you know, just to take the over on Intrigue.
- [57:02]
Zach Lowe
Can we do that, I will say, give me, give me all the Debancer Trae Young inverted pick and rolls because the Banta's pick and roll game looks ready for prime time in terms of the force that he plays with. And. And that's the question about the team, and I've talked about it before. Is, is there an in between world between extreme trey ball like Trae Young does everything, and this fantasy world where Trae Young is going to run around like Steph Curry, which is never going to happen. And he had some comments recently about how he's such a willing off ball player, he actually finds it funny that people think he's not. And I'm like, okay, those big words, man. Like you really haven't dialed into that. I don't know like what film you're watching or what game you think you're playing, but you have like kind of flirted a little bit at times with moving off the ball. And look, I get that Trae Young standing at half court has some value to your spacing. He has flirted a little bit with setting some ball screens. It didn't seem like he really loved doing it. Well, let's see it, man. If you think the criticism is so ridiculous as to be funny to you, then let's like, let's see a little bit more of that. Because I think the team would benefit from your presence and your distribution, making everything easier for the young guys, but also you letting the young guys stretch their wings a little bit by not controlling every single possession on the floor.
- [58:22]
Rob Mahoney
I do think as far as those kinds of things go, not to get in the business of just defending Trey Young at every turn. I think that's a pretty dangerous business.
- [58:29]
Zach Lowe
I think Trey Young's. I think Trey Young's underrated. I'm not trying to even criticize Traeung. I think he's like pretty, pretty wildly underrated.
- [58:36]
Rob Mahoney
I think people have just kind of largely forgotten how amazing a playmaker he is and kind of the effect he can have even on a young team that's coming up and what he did with the Hawks. But in this case, if you're trying to convince a veteran star to change their habits, in some cases it might be difficult to do it when other young players are involved like a veteran. Changing for young guys can be a tough sell. But AJ debons talent is so obvious, like he's such a clear downhill threat all the time that if you're telling Trae Young, we want you to move off ball, we want you to Set off ball screens. We want you to run inverted pick
- [59:07]
Zach Lowe
and roll sometimes, just.
- [59:08]
Rob Mahoney
Just sometimes as a part time job moonlighting. I just think that's a little easier to do when. If you're Trae Young, you can believe in the guy you're selling out for. And AJ DeBonsa is a worthy talent for anyone to kind of like make some compromises in their game for.
- [59:22]
Zach Lowe
How about a Trae Young? Alex Saar, pick and roll, Flip it back to AJ DeBance, it becomes an AJ DeBancer. Anthony Davis pick a roll with Trey Young running to one of the corners. Like, give me stuff like that. By the way, another thing about Trae Young, and I don't mean to pick on him because I do think he's underrated. I like him. I am, I am getting tired of him. If you read interviews, he's always like, when he's talking about the young players and how he can coach them up and this and that. He's always like, you know, when you've been to where I've been in this league, like, you've learned. He's like, I'm paraphrasing, but it's like a lot of when you've done what I've done and been where I've been. And been where I've been is a phrase that comes up. You know, you've learned some things like, okay, man, like it was one conference finals five years ago in a weird, like, post Covid, like during COVID kind of season when Ben Simmons like, like melted into a puddle on the floor. And like, let's, let's just, like, take it easy. Sure. It's not like you're a grizzled three time champion who's been. Or someone who's been in the final sports. Just take it easy. Okay, we got four more teams to go for, to go through. We'll take a quick break and we'll, we'll do that. Okay, we have the Clippers, the Bucks, the Kings, and the Nets. Get excited, Rob. Before we do that, I have a very important announcement to make.
- [60:33]
Rob Mahoney
Oh, what you got?
- [60:34]
Zach Lowe
Do you remember, as you're a Simpsons fan, correct. Or are you not? Are you a Simpsons hater?
- [60:39]
Rob Mahoney
I'm not a hater. I am agnostic.
- [60:42]
Zach Lowe
Do you. Are you aware of the Bort license plate bits bit from the Simpsons?
- [60:46]
Rob Mahoney
I am, in fact.
- [60:47]
Zach Lowe
All right. Are you aware that I repeatedly and feverishly urged the Thunder to strike some manufacturing deal where they produced novelty miniature Dort license plates and put them in their gift shops and The Thunder. And the Thunder did not do that.
- [61:03]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, cowards that they were, they did not take your advice.
- [61:07]
Zach Lowe
Now one thing they did do was make this license plate for me which says Dort. And it's autographed by Lud Dort. And it's an Oklahoma license plate. And it's one of my treasured pieces of basketball memorabilia. It hangs back there in my background. I'm just going to say I have relayed this idea to the Hawks already and they seem a lot more receptive to it than the Thunder were. And if they do this and it sells, I don't even want a percentage. That's my Pulitzer Prize. If this happens and the, and the Dort license plate becomes a sensation. You can put it around the chains that the kids like. You can put it like it just. There's a, there's a whole host of opportunities. I have talked to the brass there. They are having a marketing meeting this week. They seem interested in it. This is my Valhalla. This is, this is a pr. If this were. And if, if it doesn't happen, then they just have to trade him to a more creative team.
- [62:03]
Rob Mahoney
You can put it on the chains that the kids like is just, I mean that, that's an all time poll from this pod. Just incredible stuff from you. I have to say though. I mean Atlanta's front office on the younger side, as these things go. Do you, do you find yourself having to explain the symptom Simpsons bit more?
- [62:18]
Zach Lowe
No. The people I, I floated it to were aware of the joke. And, and, and also, not for nothing, if you're going to go all in on the, the gentleman's club promotion that got nixed by Luke Cornett and the Powers that be last year, this seems like a walk in the park. I mean, if you're creative enough to go there. Why am I blanking on the name of the club?
- [62:39]
Rob Mahoney
Magic City.
- [62:40]
Zach Lowe
Magic City. Of course, if you're going to go there, which I have no stance on, I was just generally like, this seems fun and interesting. This is a no brainer. Okay? I, my next pick is also a no brainer out of the Kings, the Bucks, the Clippers and the Nets. By far the most interesting and intriguing to me are the Brooklyn Nets. I am excited for the Nets. I'm excited for what Jagor, Joman Jemin did in summer league. I just, I'm excited like their starting five could be, probably will be Mikhail Brown Jr. Joman, Michael Porter Jr. Julius Randle and Dayron Sharp finally getting a chance as a starter yeah, off the bench. It's just a pile of young players that I'm kind of interested to see what they are. Joelman looked awesome in summer league. The veterans fit. I don't know what they're going to do with those veterans. That's part of the intrigue. There's already buzz out there that, like, if extension talks to Michael Porter Jr. Don't go well, could he be on the move already? And boy, could he fit in a lot of different places. Detroit comes to mind. Even Atlanta comes to mind.
- [63:39]
Rob Mahoney
Absolutely.
- [63:40]
Zach Lowe
Et cetera, et cetera. Keon Ellis is here for some fun veteran presence. There's just. There's a. There's like a lot of fun, I think. I think Joman is going to be a very, like a good pick at 8. I think he's going to end up being a good value pick at 8. I'm super interested in him playing on and off the ball. I think this team's going to be fun to watch.
- [64:00]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, Jaeger, I thought at summer league, not only was he good, but he just felt like one of the guys that is too good to be there, but also one of the guys that's on the verge of something. You could see his game just kind of like solidifying under him in a way that he and Michael Brown, I think, are just going to complement each other so beautifully. It's one of my favorite combinations in terms of like this dynamic downhill guard and this bigger, lankier playmaker where Jaeger Joman may never get to the basket as much as other people or anyone might like. He may never get to the basket much at all. I really don't know. But as long as you put him with a more dynamic slasher who can work off the dribble and get into those spaces, I think it can really work. And so those two guys working together, very exciting in a way that I don't know that any combinations of Nets players have been. And that was, to me, one of what was really holding them back last year was they have all of these guys who are supposed to be potentially useful playmakers down the line, potentially useful NBA players. I didn't really see any combination of them that felt like they were additive together. And this is the first time that it feels like they are taking a step in a direction where these young players are complimenting each other.
- [65:04]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, Traore Powell, Seraph Wolf is just like, okay, but we'll see. Like, I think Wolf could be a good backup big just because of his creativity and his ability to Shoot the three. The others are just like, I'm, I'm interested.
- [65:16]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, yeah, like, I'm a little, I am a little worried that like, are we bringing in Keon Ellis and is he going to stand in the way of guys like Drake Powell getting further opportunity? That's, that's a concern. But like, I guess maybe there's going to be time and room for everybody with this group.
- [65:31]
Zach Lowe
I believe they extended Jordy Fernandez in the off season and so he should feel less pressure to chase wins. The over under is 23 and a half, which is pretty ugly. Uglier than I thought it would be. But I get it because the east is competitive. No one is tanking. We don't know if the veteran guys are even going to be on the team. The other variable is they do not control their first round pick. Houston has the right to swap picks with Brooklyn, which looks like an extremely valuable chip for the Rockets. But the Nets still have just a pile of extra stuff from Philadelphia, from the Knicks, from the Nuggets. At some point they're going to strike in free agency. And I think their, their best case scenario this year is their young guys actually look good enough to be somewhat attractive to somebody who's looking around for a place to go. It's still New York City. The Knicks winning the title is a disaster for the Nets and their perception and their level of fandom and all that. I just think, I think this backcourt, I think they have a chance to have their backcourt of the future set in stone. With Brown and Joman, it's very early, but already they've elevated themselves well above the other guys and that's enough excitement for me.
- [66:36]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, I wonder if those guys do click, could they be one of the teams that's in position not just as like a potent, like a free agency destination, but to be in the trey market. Jaron Jackson Jr. Kind of trade talks right of like late in the season, flipping Julius Randle into something else, flipping Michael Porter Jr. To something else, like finding the piece of the guy who, as you say, is either going to be extension eligible or ready for their next deal. And their team may not be the most eager to pay them, but here it could make sense if they work with those two guards. That's, that's something I would have my eye on for sure with them.
- [67:09]
Zach Lowe
And I think Jordy's a very good coach too.
- [67:11]
Rob Mahoney
Can I ask you a Nets related trivia question?
- [67:14]
Zach Lowe
Oh, God, sure.
- [67:15]
Rob Mahoney
So we talked about Nick Claxton, now the Chicago Bulls. He has been holding down that starting center spot for a long time for the Brooklyn Nets. Do you remember before Nick Claxton became the starter of the Brooklyn Nets, who their last previous starters were at the five.
- [67:35]
Zach Lowe
So the post, there's a. There's a gap between Brooke Lopez and Nick Claxton.
- [67:39]
Rob Mahoney
There is of. And this is of the. Like, I, I would say this is probably more the Kevin Durant, Kyrie post, James Harden. But James Harden may have also been involved.
- [67:48]
Zach Lowe
Well, Blake Griffin flirted with that status at one point, particularly in the playoffs, but I'm guessing he's not who. Who you're at, who you're aiming at.
- [67:55]
Rob Mahoney
No, he is. It was a platoon job. Blake Griffin, lamarcus Aldridge, Andre Drummond that year, right?
- [68:00]
Zach Lowe
La. I forgot about la.
- [68:02]
Rob Mahoney
A truly strange and somewhat cursed time in Nets basketball history, but also kind of glorious in its way. I remember it fondly.
- [68:09]
Zach Lowe
Regardless, put on the line, toe on the line. Okay. Clippers, Bucks, Kings, who you got?
- [68:17]
Rob Mahoney
I guess I'm taking the Clippers, but I don't feel good about it. I feel just less bad about them than I do the Kings or the Bucks. And so let's go with the Clippers here kind of by default. Any lower than that would feel somewhat disrespectful. They just have a roster that makes me like, cock my head to the side and say, huh.
- [68:37]
Zach Lowe
For purposes of this exercise, are we assuming that the Kawhi trade goes through? Just not because we think that's going to happen, but just because, like, if we're going to talk about the Clippers, we're talking about the Ingram, Dick, et cetera version of the Clippers.
- [68:48]
Rob Mahoney
Yes, we are talking about that version of. With all the warts that come with it, with all the strangeness of that particular group. Like, they're going to need to figure out a lot. But there are good NBA players here. I like. I continue to be invested in the Darius Garland experience and seeing what he can be. This is really the first true opportunity for them to tease out what their team is going to look like with him at the helm. Keaton Wagler. I refuse to be deterred based off of any summer league findings. Not too worried about it. I like who he can be as a pro. I like who he could be playing at his own pace potentially.
- [69:20]
Zach Lowe
He.
- [69:20]
Rob Mahoney
You just have to give him other athletes to work off of. And there's enough, like, other interesting younger spots around the edges here to keep me really on the hook. I'm a big Yanna, Conan Niederhauser Guy. I am, like, I would say somewhat of a believer in like your Jordan Miller, maybe less Kobe Sanders, to be honest. But like, there's. There's some guys here who could be interesting and, and maybe Grady Dick could be among them too. As far as like, find a second home, reestablish your NBA value. We'll have to wait and see on him. But I guess the other one that maybe we should talk about is like, do we take it as a given that Ben Matheran is going to be back here or. Where are you thinking on all that?
- [69:55]
Zach Lowe
It's been interesting how radio silent that whole situation has been, which happens in restricted free agency. I've heard nothing. I haven't beaten the doors down trying to figure out what's going on with Ben Matheran, because when the situation like this happens, my assumption is that we'll get to September and they'll hammer out a deal that he's probably not going to be psyched about, but everyone will do their best and move on. So I have him penciled in on the team next year. I've. He's fine. Like, I, like, I don't. I. I would like him as like my seventh guy, come off the bench and create some offense. I'm not sure he's a starter on a good team. Could he develop into that? Sure, I guess. But there's that piece and just. It just. It's a weird. They're doing what they should do, which is just collect assets, take flyers on Rui Hachimura's of the world. Yeah, Grady Dix, Brandon Ingram feels just like we'll get him and flip him and hope to turn him into something else. I just. It's just a weird mishmash of guys and I'm not really sure what it amounts to as a basketball team, but, you know, the Wagler thing is interesting. Do you think they start him right off the bat and just say, hey, we're going to start you with Garland, we'll figure it out, or bring him off the bench? I have no idea.
- [71:07]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, I think they probably should. I mean, the alternatives would be either leaning on someone like Matheran or I guess, I guess you could start Derrick Jones at the 2. That would be the worst thing in the world.
- [71:16]
Zach Lowe
I think they'll start Jerry. I. I penciled in Garland, Dunn, Ingram, Jones, Lopez as a starting five, but just in pencil. It could go in a number of different directions. You could start rui at the 4. I'd like to see them start Niederhauser if he can Come back healthy at any point this season, just like throw him into the fire. They're over. Under is 28 and a half, which is pretty goddamn low for where the LA Clippers have been and feels. And feels right to me. Because as much as they probably don't want it to be, this is going to be a pretty deep rebuild for them. And they do not control their first round pick in this draft. The Thunder of all teams get to swap picks with the. It's a line of swaps where the Thunder are first in line. The Indiana picks are. Could be in Toronto picks if they get them, could be valuable if they get to keep them. Who the hell knows what's going to happen. And obviously they struggled with the waggler pick falling to them, but it's. It's a. It's a mishmash. It's a. It's not one that I like, look at. I'm like, I'm really excited to see how Garland and Ingram fit together. Like, I just. It doesn't feel like it's going to be very fun to watch.
- [72:21]
Rob Mahoney
I think it could be worse, right? I mean, we certainly saw some rebuilding teams last season that were just an absolute chore. I don't think it's that. I just don't feel any particular pull to like pull this team up on the league pass dial right now.
- [72:34]
Zach Lowe
Garland is extension eligible. That. That could be interesting. I would not extend him if I were the Clippers at a number that he. At whatever number he's gonna like actually take a deal I would not sign because I just needed him to stay healthy for longer. I think you and I is like just basketball purist. Guys have a soft spot for his game. He's unselfish, he's super creative off the dribble. Like just, just a change of pace of just a whirling ball of fakes and hesitations and feints and fun passes. But he's undersized and he's been hurt a lot and you gotta play, but there's that. And so now we're down to the Bucks and the Kings. Can I, can I just pass?
- [73:14]
Rob Mahoney
Can I just pass?
- [73:16]
Zach Lowe
Pass?
- [73:17]
Rob Mahoney
Just keep an empty roster spot.
- [73:18]
Zach Lowe
You know, I will take. I will actually take the Kings and leave you with the Bucks. I just find both of these situations immensely depressing for a team that's as bad as the Kings are. And I think they're going to be bad. There is just not a lot to be excited about unless Darius Acuff really, really pops. And I like you I'm not reading much. You know, summer league. He took a lot of shots. He wasn't super efficient. Fine, whatever. He's going to get to do whatever he wants. He's not going to be efficient this year. Rookie guards running an NBA offense are not going to be efficient. I like Nate Clifford. I think Nate Clifford has a chance to be like a low end starting wing on a good team. Kind of do it all. Smart player. Needs to be a little bit more forceful on offense. He's. He's an interesting prospect.
- [74:06]
Rob Mahoney
Yes. I think most of the nice things that I would say about the Kings are either Nate Clifford related or Maxime Renault related. Like that's, that's kind of where my enthusiasm is at this point.
- [74:17]
Zach Lowe
I just worry. Maxine Renault is. And I was driving the Maxine Renault first team, all rookie train. Like I, like I was shoveling coal in the back seat in the caboose. Like I was on it or the caboose is not the, the same car that has Nicole. I'm a little rusty on my 19th century train architecture. I just think he's so defensively limited that I wonder if his destiny is like a very good backup and not a starter on a good team. Obviously Sabonis is the starter here until they finally and mercifully trade him. Does anyone that will give up anything for him? Keegan Murray is fine again, just an okay starting wing until he shows me a little bit more. And then it's like the Levine situation could not be more depressing. The Sabona situation could not be more depressing. Malik Monk has like a preposterous contract. It is interesting how some of these like 20 million ish contracts when they're signed. And I think Kobe, White and Desumu will be interesting bellwethers for this too when they're signed. My reaction, the general reaction is like that's kind of what you pay for. Like a good guard, a good six man. Monk was a six man of the year candidate, a good. And then like Christian Brown, that's what you pay for. Like a good young guard who's a winning player and fits with Jokic. And then very quickly they become like, oh, that's a terrible contract. Not all of them, but some of them. And you know, they have their first round pick right at a time when tanking is less profitable than it's ever been. It's just hard. And then that, that they have no real extra. They have a 31 pick from Minnesota. That's their only like extra draft asset. So to be a team that's going to be very bad and, like, almost unviable defensively, to have just that one extra draft asset and not a lot of young players to be, like, super excited about is a pretty depressing place to be. And yet I'm still taking them here because I want to see Auff. I want to see Reynaud, I want to see N. Clifford. And I don't know, Sanders didn't want to take the Kings last.
- [76:16]
Rob Mahoney
I think there's still the right choice. I mean, we're going to get into the Bucks, but at least this is a team that maybe the best thing about them is that they are starting to turn the page. It's just such a gradual process. Right? Like, it's not just waving and Moving on from DeMar DeRozan and moving on from Russell Westbrook and like, some of these vestiges of what's been happening. But as you mentioned, like, they still need to trade Sabonis. They still need to figure out what to do with Lavine. It's just going to be.
- [76:41]
Zach Lowe
And they're not. And by the way, they're not getting anything for those guys. Sabonis still gets something. It won't be like a dump where they have to attach things. But you're not getting. Levine is a dump. Sabonus, you're not getting anything that's like, oh, wow, we got this young prospect that's very exciting. You're not getting that. You're just getting money that's a little less damaging in, like, some seconds or something.
- [77:02]
Rob Mahoney
And so like, they've brought in a cuff people. People seem quite excited about. I. I would say I'm a little acuff. Skeptical, but I'm also not following college basketball the closest. So let's. Let's see who he can be as a pro. Other than that, they're kind of in that Pelican zone of. With all due respect to Jonathan Mobo have not exactly done much to add to this roster and expand it beyond what it already was. So you're really banking on, like, Keegan Murray having a nice comeback and healthy season. You're really banking on some of your guys, like Nick Clifford, being able to expand what they already do. And I'm already kind of impressed by the range of what he does. I'm not sure how much further he can really stretch. I'm sure he'll get a little bit better and more solid over time. But, yeah, there just. There aren't a lot of footholds here and there may not be for some time, which unfortunately has been the case with the Kings for, I mean, just so many stages of their history.
- [77:50]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, stop me if you've heard this before, but the Kings are counting on the lottery to rebuild their team, and that has not been kind to them. And when it has been kind to them, they have fucked it up so completely that Tyrese Halliburton and Indiran Fox were too many point guards and then to zero point guards with not enough in return. They do have a pretty blank slate on their roster after next season and, like, easy availability of cap room, which, you know, cap room is not getting you a superstar free agent these days, but it's still useful. Get some value deals, get some salary dumps, pick up some draft assets which they badly need. But this is the team. When I think of the relegation zone and how the three worst teams are punished with lesser lottery odds than the teams below them in the standings or right above them in the standings, however you want to phrase it, this is the team that I really think of as a team that will really try to not be in the relegation zone, and I'm not sure if they can get there. What do you think their fanduel over under is? Take a guess.
- [78:49]
Rob Mahoney
Oh, my God. For the Kings, I would think it's got to be low. I'm going to guess like, 22.
- [78:55]
Zach Lowe
22 and a half. I mean, they are paying Zach Levine and demonte Sabonis, like, $90 million, and they're over under is lower than the Brooklyn Nets. That is, like, astonishing. Okay. The Bucs.
- [79:14]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. I mean, speaking of bleak, I guess this is fitting if I'm going to take the Grizzlies first in this draft for all of the depth that they have. This is just a pile of dudes. It's not really a roster.
- [79:26]
Zach Lowe
It's a great way to put it. It's exactly what I have. It's just a bunch of guys.
- [79:29]
Rob Mahoney
A bunch of guys.
- [79:30]
Zach Lowe
It's what happens when you make a couple of big trades. You just have, like, okay, this. This is not a basketball team. It's just a collection of guys waiting for flights to different places at different gates, at the airport.
- [79:41]
Rob Mahoney
Completely. And I, I. For the record, I don't expect a team that just went through the Giannis trade in particular to have all its shit together, to have a roster that makes sense. That would be unreasonable. It just doesn't mean I have to want to watch it. And you look at this combination of players, and there are some bright spots. There's some guys I'm. I'm interested in certainly, like, I want to see who Braden Burrys is. I am a Yakuzonis guy. I am a Ryan Rollins guy. Like, there are. There are players here and elements here. Khloe Ware, I think what he could be with this team could be pretty exciting. But I don't know. There's. There's so many. I'm lukewarm on. There's so many that don't make sense together. There's Gary Trent Jr. The $64 million man.
- [80:17]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, we don't. We don't need to. I've already believed. I've already talked a lot about that one.
- [80:21]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, just insane. But let me start here. Do you. Do you think Khalil Ware and Miles Turner are just going to start together? Or is there a way out of that? Or for that not to happen? Because I really would not like it. I also just don't see why it wouldn't be the case.
- [80:34]
Zach Lowe
I don't think they'll start together. I do think that's the place to start, though, because on the one hand, I just want to start Khloe Ware, and to hell with the Miles Turner thing. Let me just see what I have in Khloe Ware. He is the sexiest prospect I got from Miami. I've always been a little higher on Khale Ware than consensus. Obviously, the Heat and SPO were lukewarm on him over time, but he's got something. He's got something that if you can bottle it and shove him in the right directions on and off the court, he's something. But then on the other hand, like, I have to rehab Miles Turner's trade value, and I'm not sure I can do that if I'm bringing him off the bench. And so then you're stuck asking the question of, like, hey, should we start both of them? That won't work, but is it something that we can try? I don't know, man. I like if you here are all the guards this team has. I'm just going to read you the names of every guard on the team. Tyler Hero, Extension eligible, by the way. Gary Trent Jr. Caris Lavert, A.J. green. Braden Buries. Kevin Porter Jr. Ryan Rollins, Casper Shakachonas. Like, it's just so many guards. I don't know how any of them fit together. I don't know who's long for the team and who's not. And that's before you get to the. The swing guys like, you know, Haquez, Nate Ament, etcetera. Usman Jangle I thought was very good for them last year. It's just like too many guards. Kuzma's here doing something and they don't even really have a realistic, I shouldn't say realistic. If they extend Hero at what it's going to take to extend him. And this, this is, this is the same thing as Michael Border Jr. If you're not going to do that, you should try to be flipping him immediately. Yeah, they're not going to have cap space this summer or the summer after that because they have all this dead money on their books from Dame and then Miles Turner and they don't have a first round pick in this draft. Their first round pick goes to either New Orleans or Atlanta. It's a mess. I think, all things consider. I think they did okay in the honest trade considering they waited too long to do it. Yeah, I just don't have any idea what this is going to amount to. And it looks like a very long, long road back.
- [82:45]
Rob Mahoney
I think part of the reason that's the case and that they feel so rudderless at this particular moment in time is just the difference between Tyler Herro and the kind of player you would hope to get back in a Giannis trade. Where I agree with you, they got a bunch of stuff they needed to refresh their coffers. They needed just like volume of movable players and picks and stuff to work with that was, that was clearly a value to them. But they're going to need to figure out if Tyler Hero is any kind of keeper, not just in the extension sense, but like do you want to build a basketball team with this guy as one of, kind of the load bearing elements of it. And I, I just don't know that he's ever really been that guy. That's not something I would be super eager to do. Tyler Hero is good. Good scorer, good creator. I think like he's good, he can fit in a lot of contexts. He's just not the, he's not the first brick you want to lay down for a bunch of different reasons. And I think it puts them in a really weird spot to have to like negotiate that right out of the gate.
- [83:38]
Zach Lowe
He's, he's a one time all star who might just be a one time all star, which is like a, like C.J. mcCollum's a no time all Star. Like he's. And that's a player that I've always comped him to in terms of like his standing in the league, present and future. Very good Player just like not going to drive winning on his own as the best player on a team. It's just, again, they don't control their pick. Rebuilding through the draft is less, is, is harder than it used to be under these new rules. No one is going to Milwaukee into their cap space if they ever get cap space. It's, it's, it's. When you actually sit down and look at the roster post Giannis trade, it's just a mess. It's a mess. And I don't even mean that in a bad way. Like these are bad players or they misevaluated the players. It's just too many parts that don't fit together. And I don't know how Taylor Jenkins is going to make. Taylor Jenkins is very good coach, by the way. I don't know how he's going to make any of this.
- [84:30]
Rob Mahoney
But just like, where do you find room for the guys that you even like? Like, how do you sift through this? Like, if you really want to find an opportunity for A.J. green, is, is he going to be able to play more than 15 to 18 minutes on a team like this? I really don't know.
- [84:42]
Zach Lowe
Well, I mean, the answer is you just don't play Caris Lavert at all. I mean, yeah, you, you don't play Gary Trent Jr. At all. Whoops. He's making guaranteed $64 million until otherwise proven, you know, by the league. And you just maybe take Kevin Porter Jr. And trade him to another team and just go, you know, Rollins is a guy to me. He's 4 million this year. Player option, 4 million next year that he'll opt out of, surely, and then be extension eligible or something. Eligible for a new contract. He's, I think, worth keeping around. He's good if the price is right, but I just. Let's just go all in with the young guys. If we're in the relegation zone, it doesn't really matter to us because we don't control our picks. So we're not like incentivized to try to be out of it in a bizarro way. But it's, it's. I don't, I don't. I'm going to watch a lot of Bucs games. I watch every team a lot. I'm not going to, I'm not going to forsake any of these teams. They will be on my league pass Rolodex in their normal frequency. I might try to. There's always a strategy, Rob, where you can do. I'll watch them against a really good team that I really love to watch, and it's probably going to be a blowout. Or do you do the eat your vegetables game where it's like, all right, Bucks Kings, like, like, let's go. Let's get them both out of the way now. I don't. I don't know, but that's what it's going to feel like next year.
- [86:06]
Rob Mahoney
It's going to have to be a little bit of both. And I just really hope that by the time they work out in the schedule that they have filtered some of those guys out. It. It's not even like a young guys versus old guys thing. It's just like, there are elements of this roster that are not part of the future. There are elements of this roster that actively distract from the players you're trying to evaluate. Like, Kevin Porter Jr. Is one of those guys where even though he might be valuable to some people in some contexts, I wouldn't know what they are, but when he's on the court, he wants to have the ball in his hands, and he will fight to have the ball in his hands. And so if you're hoping for Braden Burries to create, if you're hoping for Tyler Hero to create or to figure out who Casper could be for this team, guys like. Guys like him, Porter Jr. Actively sort of stand in the way of that. And so I want to see who here is worth keeping. And I think it's going to be a long road to get to that point to even just like, let's marginalize Cal Kuzma, let's marginalize Porter, let's marginalize Caris Laver. Like, you got to put that whole process through its paces. And so we're going to check in early, but I'm thinking prime Bucks, watching basketball, maybe like December, early January, like before it gets truly awful. But after some of the initial stuff has been worked out.
- [87:13]
Zach Lowe
I will say I'm glad you brought up Yakachunas again. First of all, I loved Burry's in summer league, and I liked him in the draft, too. My limited draft tape of him that I saw, I was like, all right, I get it. This guy's going to be good. I thought that was a good pick for them. Yakachunas should not just be like a footnote that we throw in here. He's a 6, 5 point guard with very creative vision, sometimes creative to his own detriment, where he's throwing passes over his, like, literally over his head, Lucas style to teammates who aren't expecting them but the vision, the idea, the ideas that his brain registers are very unique. He also shot 42% on threes, obviously low volume. He only took 156, but that's something to build like there. That he could be a very interesting player. That makes everybody around him better. I'm interested to see him play, but yeah, it's going to be. It's going to be rough. All right, Rob Mahoney, you're heading to an undisclosed location for some vacation. You will not be taking your podcasting equipment. So if LeBron signs, I will not be going to you for an emergency podcast. I leave in 10 days for my sojourn. I will be taking my. I take my microphone now. I can't help it. I get a little antsy. So the microphone and the camera.
- [88:24]
Rob Mahoney
Well, can I make one caveat on that front? I do want you. If in the case that LeBron walks back his dismissal and does decide to sign with the Indiana Pacers, I need you to put up the white smoke, and I will find some emergency podcasting equipment. And we must.
- [88:37]
Zach Lowe
We must reconvene in an Internet cafe somewhere in. Wherever you're gonna be. I don't. I don't think that's gonna happen. But no, I don't know how many more public appearances LeBron has in the next week, but maybe one of them will be the one. All right, and then you're hopping on prestige TV today, right? What are you guys gonna. What. What are you guys gonna be talking about?
- [88:54]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, we're wrapping up Cape Fear right now where it's. We're angling toward the season finale. It's, I mean, very exciting, very unhinged times for an absolutely batshit show.
- [89:02]
Zach Lowe
I've had a bunch of people try to sway me on Widow's Bay as a. As a spouse neutral show. How violent is it? How tense is it? Does it fit the bill?
- [89:13]
Rob Mahoney
What is the tolerance and appetite for light to medium horror?
- [89:19]
Zach Lowe
0 to 1%.
- [89:20]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, it might be out. It's just like a little spooky. I wouldn't say it's deeply scary, but it also is probably the show of the year. Certainly the funniest show of the year.
- [89:30]
Zach Lowe
All right, well, we'll have to do a rundown of my thoughts on the bear at a later date, but Rob Mahoney, it's always great to see you enjoy a well deserved vacation, and thank you for your time.
- [89:38]
Rob Mahoney
Appreciate it, Zach. Thank you.
- [89:42]
Zach Lowe
All right, that's it for today's episode of the Zach Lowe Show. Thank you to Rob Mahoney. Thanks as always to Mike, Billy and Jonathan on production. Thanks to you all for listening to and or watching the Zach Lowe Show. We will be back later this week with something. Have to come up with something. Gotta talk about something. So we'll see you then. Thanks everybody and see you soon. 21 or over and President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over in President, D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MY-RESET. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatinceneticut or is it mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland? Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-508 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New York. For Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7867.