Caitlin Cooper (30:44)

That's an amazing story. I really appreciate that on her behalf. I've had some people tell me things about the T shirts, but I think that's going to be my favorite one that I'm going to hold on to. So I'm doing well. Really excited to talk about the Pacers being in the NBA Finals.

Zach Lowe (30:56)

What a time to start a Patreon. The last couple years about the Indiana Pacers, huh?

Caitlin Cooper (31:02)

No kidding. I got an Eastern Conference finals run in my first full season this year, and now I get to see them go even a step further. So definitely an exciting time to be doing this independently.

Zach Lowe (31:11)

So if you don't subscribe to Galen's Patreon, like, the level of basketball knowledge is just crazy. The breaking down of the tapes. She knows the players, she knows the tendencies, she knows the play types. It's, it's, it's just the highest level stuff you're going to get. If you want to understand, like what are the Indiana Pacers actually doing on a basketball court. If you want to discuss is Tyrese Halliburton a superstar or not? Maybe. Maybe you need to go elsewhere. But if you want to know what's actually happening in the basketball game, it's a good place to start. So I want to ask you some granular questions. First of all, let's zoom out. The Pacers are huge underdogs in the series. I picked Thunder in five. That seems to be like a consensus pick. Do you think they're being underestimated or is that general premise fair to you?

Caitlin Cooper (31:54)

I feel somewhat out of bounds with this series to a degree, because I've never prepped to see the Pacers play a playoff series against a team from the Western Conference, let alone a team that plays as weird as the Oklahoma City Thunder and a team in the Oklahoma, Oklahoma City Thunder that didn't have Chet Holmgren for two games. So I felt like even when I was doing my own preview, it was a lot of guesswork. I do think after everything that I combed through, that this is by far going to be the toughest defensive test that they've seen because the Thunder just, they defy convention defensively in so many ways. It's not only that they pack the paint to such a degree and they load up at the elbows and the blocks. It's that they are helping from very odd locations at times. They're able to get away with gambles. Everybody knows about how much they turn opponents over, in part because their help is so locked in. And it's locked in in ways that not every other team does. So for the Pacers perspective, you can look at the numbers. You can see that Tyrese's drives are down against Oklahoma City, that his paint touches are down, his restricted area touches are down. The Pacers are a team that preaches one of their favorite sayings, paint to great. So the challenges are going to be there. But I also think that there are some advantages that they'll be able to poke at in ways that maybe they didn't have to access in the prior two series but are still accessible to them against this particular team.

Zach Lowe (33:08)

Yeah, what you just said about the Thunders defense being a different challenge. I mean, to me, if I had to broad strokes, summarize why this is a difficult matchup for the Pacers, other than the fact that The Thunder won 68 games and are just objectively awesome, is that the Pacers have, I keep using the word frenzy. They have overwhelmed the Eastern Conference with their frenzied style of play on both ends of the floor and the way they play defense and form how they play offense, it's all part of one machine, but just the sheer speed of their offense in the half court, the random screens, the cuts, the movement, the passing and, and the depth that they use to sustain that style so that no one gets tired and everybody can play at a, at that crazy pace, just overwhelms teams Frenzy. And the Thunder live in the frenzy already. They are totally fine playing that kind of style, that kind of speed, that kind of pace, and they have the depth to match Indiana. And so those advantages I think that Indiana has had against the east are, are kind of not there against this particular Thunder team. But I want to drill down because you said advantages and that's, that's, that was my challenge in prepping for this series is like, where can the Pacers poke? And that's why I wanted to have you on because I know you're going to be ahead of me in that analysis. You're going to have found places for the Pacers to poke. So my first question to you is this. Assuming the Thunder start their usual starting lineup, double big, Holmgren, Hartenstein, how do you think they match up on defense? And if you were their coach, how would you match up on defense with, particularly with the two big guys, who would you have them guard?

Caitlin Cooper (34:54)

Based on what we saw in the regular season, I think it's fairly likely that you might see Hartenstein cross matched onto Siakam. They've seemed like they want to put the more switchable defender onto Miles Turner. And to be honest, like, if I was the coach of the Thunder, I would probably be leaning more heavily on just going with homegrown at single big. And I think that they'll lean heavily on lineups with no bigs against the Pacers because I think that's probably going to be their more advantageous start. But a lot of times Miles has been guarded by Jalen Williams. He's been guarded by Kendrick Williams because they've just liked the ability to switch and be pushing him into that 3 to 10 foot area. I've talked about it. Miles, as good as he's been as a shooter this year, he's shooting a career worse from that particular range. And the Thunder do have a lot of physical guards who are able to push him up a little bit off the court. And to me, if I'm the Thunder, when I'm watching some of the play types that you're talking about, where it's, you know, the Pacers get through first option, second option, third option, fourth option, and there's still Nine seconds on the clock. The Thunder were able to take away the first, second, third option. A lot of times a lot of those possessions were ending up and like the Miles Turner mid post face up mid Rangers, which he's capable of making those. But if I'm the Thunder, I feel good about that outcome. I think most likely it'll be Ludor on Terry's Halliburton. He'll be doing a lot of face guarding there. I think probably if they went smaller, you would see Case and Wallace on Nemhard and you'd see Shay Gilgis on Nice Smith is what I'm expecting. If not, then I would probably think Hartenstein, Siakam, Homegren, Turner.

Zach Lowe (36:19)

So you mentioned the cross matching of of Thunder centers on Siakam Hartenstein particularly on Siakam and wings, Jalen Williams being the main one because he's the biggest on Miles Turner. And we did see that a lot. Actually more than I had expected when I went back and watched the games. Of course, the difference is that Chad Holmgren didn't play in those games. If it were me, I might start with Holmgren on Siakam and Hartenstein on Turner and just feel that out and see like how many pick and pop threes is Miles Turner really going to get? Really going to take and really going to make. And I also just like the idea of I want Shet as close to the rim as I can get him. And Siakam, although he's going to be everywhere and have the ball a lot, including in pick and rolls as both the ball handler, the screener is going to keep Chet closer to the center of the floor, whether it's, you know, closer to the rim. What, what do you that's leaving aside. Let's leave aside the one big no big thing which we're going to talk about. Like what do you think of that? Am I, am I off for that on that? Is Pascal too physical? Is he going to back home, run under the rim and shoot over him or like get his little 15 footer going? What do you think of that matchup?

Caitlin Cooper (37:31)

I mean, I think the thing that we've seen, like not to drill down on the double big, but I think that, that we've seen with the Pacers most often is that they make space for each other a lot of. So whichever one is guarding is Hartenstein is guarding. I think they're just going to use that guy more predominantly as the screener and try to relocate Holmgren weak side corner as much as they could. I mean that was the attack point against Karl Anthony Towns and Robinson. Most typically it was get Carl Anthony Towns into action, relocate Robinson as the help defender, which Robinson's help tendencies for the Knicks weren't at the same quality as the Thunders are. And I think that another good point with the Thunder is is it's, it's not often that they they're only relying on Holmgren as the rim protector. Like they have democratic rim protection. Like you can't even just relocate one guy. A lot of times it is multiple people and I think that's including their.

Zach Lowe (38:19)

Including their guards by the way. Like even including Shea will throw himself at the rim and make a nuisance of himself. Okay, the one big two bigs. No big thing I think. I think you hit it. I mentioned it on Monday with Goldsberry in my sort of longer preview. Look, the Thunder are great in any alignment that they use. To me given the way the Pacers play with five out spacing and speed, this is tailor made for them to go one big and I we will see no bigs for I think of more than we've seen in every playoff series. Wouldn't even surprise me if we got to a point fairly quickly where they start Caruso over Hartenstein or start Wallace over Hartenstein or something like that. Let's say we get to that. Let's just posit that we get to the point where they're playing 75% or more of the game with one big on the floor. You said the word advantages. Where can the Pacers poke at the at the Thunder defense in that alignment? What are you the biggest puzzle to solve in the NBA is how to score enough against the Thunder. How can the Pacers score enough against the Thunder? Where are they going to look.

Caitlin Cooper (39:28)

Given how many corner threes that the Thunder give up the highest frequency in the NBA and how willing they are to help off of the corner The Pacers top 10 at the NBA and throwing passes to the corners per 100 possessions. Tyrese is very underrated at reading the weak side corner with the skip pass, especially against scram rotations. And something I've been working around in my head is is you know, if it's miles and they're willing to there's a cross match there and they're doing a lot of switching. How much would the Thunder really need to scram that so so slow.

Zach Lowe (40:00)

Slow down. Tell people what you mean by scram switch. I know what you mean, but explain what you mean by a scram switch.

Caitlin Cooper (40:06)

So let's, let's envision that Holmgren's guarding Pascal Siakam in the weak side corner and Miles Turner goes and screens for Tyrese Halliburton and Lou Dort is guarding Tyrese Halliburton. So Lou Dort would then switch on to Miles Turner as he's rolling toward the basket. A lot of times teams when that roller is being defended by a smaller defender will off ball switch with Holmgren jumping onto the screener with Dort then being kicked out to the corner. So it's an off ball switch to resolve the mismatch that's being created. My question is based on what I've seen and how comfortable they've been for the most part with letting Miles shoot those turnaround mid Rangers is would they actually scram it? Depending upon who the switch is against, I'm leaning towards no. But my initial thought was Tyrese is so good at beating the timing of those, I've literally seen him beat the timing of a scram switch from one corner, standing in the right corner, throwing it over the top of the defense to the left corner, that that feels like an optimum place for the Pacers. And they're also a team that plays as a team and they're very comfortable playing out of the weak side of the floor and getting those skip passes there and letting that guy do a re attack pass the ball on. They love the extra pass up from the corner to the wing. And they've been the top team in the NBA playoffs shooting from the corners. So that's a good juxtaposition. I think that's one. But like I said, I'm tossing around in my head how much would that scram actually be there for him to beat the timing from. But that feels like the most obvious one, especially because I think a really underrated aspect of what this run has been for the Pacers is that Neesmith, Nemhard and Siakam are top three right now. An effective field goal percentage from three among some of the higher volume shooters. And then the person that I think offensively stands out the most, aside from that concept, is Siakam. Like when you're really thinking about it and you look back at Game 5 against the Knicks and the thing that bothered the Pacers a lot in that game was the face guarding from Bridges against Tyrese and the fact that OG on Anobi as the team's strongest defender was guarding Andrew Nemhard and ducking under screens against Andrew Nemhardt. That's the first time all season that I had seen a team face guard Tyrese and then put their strongest link against Nemhard. Because a lot of times Tyrese is very content to be like, you know, we can play 4 on 4 and allow Andrew Nemhard to initiate with Myles Turner. That's what they did the whole Cavs series. Nemhard ran more pick and roll than Tyrese did. So given that, I think that the Thunder can replicate that pretty easily against Tyrese and Nemhard, it makes me think that they're going to have to get more creative. And what they're doing against Siakam, whether that's early against Hartenstein, if they do play big, and if they were to cross match that, they've done some crazy things. I've seen Siakam as a pick and roll ball handler against Hartenstein with Tyrese face guarding and pushing his guy into a ball screen with Nemhard as a stack screener. Like, I fully expect this series to get weird with little things such as that. And if it is Chet, then they might just be using Siakam as a screener more often, similar to what they did with Mobley, to try to get Chet away from the basket towards Tyrese and be attacking through that way. So I really think Siakam is going to be a big linchpin on both of the ends of the floor, but especially offensively. And then probably the third concept that I would look at is the Pacers have done a lot of guarding, especially with Jalen Brunson. I've called it guarding him by forcing him to guard. Like during the regular season, Aaron Neesmith set two screens with Jalen Brunson guarding him. And the last series it was over 85 screens in six games against the New York Knicks. So while Shay Gilges is a much better defender than Jalen Brunson, I still think there might be some merit to guarding him by forcing him to guard. So I think you might be seeing a lot of guard to guard screening actions involving Aaron Neesmith just to make sure that Shay Gildas is actively involved in the action.

Zach Lowe (43:53)

So what you're really saying is there just aren't very many good answers against the Thunder. You just have to live with the only answers that are like, semi plausible. And one of them is, to your point, no matter who, if it's one big, whoever that big is on is going to be in a lot of pick and rolls because it just bends the defense more than the other options that you have and lifts the big man away from the basket. And maybe you get a switch and Tyrese can do something with that switch. The same thing with Shay. Like, you can't really hunt Shay. Shay's a good defender. And the Thunder have no weak links. And we all know that. That's why the Thunder defense is so good. But it's kind of like, what else, what else am I supposed to do? And at the very least, I'm going to make him expend a lot of energy on defense. A couple of things. You mentioned the threes and how well the Pacers are shooting. The Pacers are an incredible shooting team. I think people have kind of been slow to realize what an elite shot making team this is. I've mentioned it before. Like by the location of their shots, they should not be this great of an offense, but they outshoot expectations from every spot on the floor. They are an elite shooting team and the Thunder give up tons of threes. And I just think obviously they're going to have to take and make a lot of threes to have a chance in this series. My favorite thing you said was the scram switching passing by Tyrese. It's one of my favorite little niche passes in the NBA. Tyrese is so smart that not only does he anticipate that switch from big man coming from corner kicking out guard to the perimeter, not only does he anticipate it and pass ahead of it, he baits it so he can throw that pass ahead of the defense. That's how smart he is. And to your point, I'm not making that switch. Lou Dort on Miles Turner. Like you want to post up Miles Turner against a freaking brick wall. Cool. Go. Go ahead and do it. Yeah, he's got a height advantage. I don't care. If Miles Turner makes so many 13 foot jump shots that I have to change my defense, then wow, credit to Miles Turner. I'm not switching Caruso. I'm not switching Case and Wallace. I might not even switch Shay against Miles Turner, but we'll see. But like you said, Rick Carlisle's got a lot of other cards in his deck. Different pick and roll setups, different staggered screens. Staggered screens where the screens are 15ft apart instead of 5ft apart. Like they're going to cook up a lot of stuff. It's just a challenge. Can we flip to the other side of the floor real quickly or do you have more. More you want to say on this?

Caitlin Cooper (46:36)

Well, just like a quick, specific action that I think could be effective for them if people want to watch for it. You can watch Tyrese. So hold up his hand with a letter C. That's what the Pacers call it. And like, with regard to Siakam, Siakam will go up on the empty side of the floor as if he's approaching from the corner, set a touchscreen. He's one of the best in the NBA at staying lower so that he can get that switch if he sets that. I think that something that's really beneficial to the Pacers is they'll put Miles Turner at the top of the key. So depending upon which big, you know, if Chet's guarding Siakam, if Chet's guarding Miles, I think this could be advantageous in either way because then they'll enter the ball from Miles Turner from above the break to Siakam against that switch. And I think Siakam is going to be a lot more effective than Miles at going against these post ups. And while the Thunder will bring somebody off that opposite corner, another thing that the Pacers can do in combination with that, that they'll do often is they can put Tyrese in the weak side corner, set a weak side flare, lift him from that corner, and if that's Lou Dort and he's providing the backside help on Siakam, now he has to make a decision, am I going to go help Siakam or am I going to lift with Tyrese shaking up from the corner? Like, it's those types of things where I think that they're going to have to be very detail oriented and how they're removing the democratic rim protection and how they're lifting those guys. So I think that that's. That's an action you'll see a lot because it's going to be one of two things. Either Siakam is going to set that screen, and maybe Chet switches out to Andrew Nemhard as the ball handler on the empty side of the court, or Chet's guarding Miles Turner, likely with his feet outside the free throw line, and Siakam is going to get to go out of post up against potentially one, maybe two smaller guys. So those types of things, I think that'll be prevalent within the Pacers offense.

Zach Lowe (48:19)

See, look at that. Look at that, people. Caitlin, everyone listening to this? You can all show off now to your friends you're watching the game with. When Tyrese makes a C with his hands, you can be like, so this is what's about to happen. Here are all the counters on this play. And your friends will be like, wow, you're a really smart basketball person. And you don't even have to credit Caitlin. Just pretend like you know this on your own because she gave you the knowledge. Okay. Defensively, which is almost the end of the floor. That's getting a little less attention because the Thunder's defense is such a monster. Oklahoma City's offense against Indiana's defense. SGA pick and rolls against Miles Turner's guy. So traditional pick and rolls, bring the center up. Miles Turner's on the center. How do you expect the Pacers to handle those?

Caitlin Cooper (49:05)

I think that based on what I saw in the two games, it's going to be a ton of Andrew Nemhard guarding Shea more than about anybody else. Maybe there was a dash of Ben Shepard during the regular season. I think, I know that people think Neesmith has more length, which was certainly true against Jalen Brunson, but the problem is I think that you need Neesmith against Jalen Williams too much so that it is going to have to be Andrew Nemhard and it's going to be need to be Andrew Nemhard because he's the best on the roster, applying the full court pressure, which at least from that standpoint, should be, you know, a difference maker to an extent. Because the Thunder haven't seen the degree of ball pressure that they're about ready to see from the Indiana Pacers throughout this playoff run yet. So I think that they'll play it somewhat traditionally. It'll be the normal, like Andrew chasing over the pick and if he can't get over, then it's going to be a veer switch between Miles and Andrew Nemhard. The biggest question to me about tell.

Zach Lowe (49:58)

People what a veer switches.

Caitlin Cooper (50:00)

So basically you're going over the pick and if, if Shay gets deeper than the free throw line, that's typically the trigger point. So if he dribbles past the free throw line and Andrew isn't back in front yet, he'll veer in front of, you know, chat Holmgren as the screener and he'll get into his legs and then it's called a late switch because you're not. Miles doesn't step up switching. He's late switching because he's going to absorb the ball coming toward him. So that's typically how the Pacers prefer to defend those types of pick and roll actions. And I think partially against Shay. The most interesting question, and it relates somewhat to how they guarded the Cavs, is how many defenders are guarding Shea Gilgames? How much help are they willing to send on the drives because they sent a help defender on over 80% of the drives against Shay during the regular season and he still averaged 31 and 8 on over 70% true shooting against the Indiana Pacers. So the interest, yeah, the interesting aspect of that is like they almost completely removed the help against Donovan Mitchell against the Cavs and the Cavs have a ton of off ball cutting and screening motion around the pick and roll. And I think what the Pacers decided going into that series is we're going to change the types of threes they are going to get and we are going to remove the natural kick out and passing avenues because we don't trust Donovan Mitchell's passing creativity. So they funneled a ton of usage to him. They had the lowest closeout rate relative to the 30th ranked team in the regular season, the lowest help rate on drives relative to the 30th ranked team in the regular season and funneled a ton of usage, hoped that he would run out of gas and involved him in the action in a ton. It was relatively the same thing against Jalen Brunson with the exception of Andrew Nemhard just being absolutely awesome in Game six and the fact that they helped off Josh Hart a lot. Siakam will be guarding Lou Dort and Siakam will be roaming off of Lou Dort a lot because that's his most natural role on defense. So I expect to see that. But I think the biggest question for the Pacers is which one of those pathways do they want to take? Do they want to keep sending that degree of help despite the fact that Shea still scored over 30 with them doing it, or do they want to be like, hey, you might score 40 but we're going to take away everything else and we're also going to involve you in a ton of actions at the other end of the floor and hope that they can make that same relative gamble against Donovan Mitchell with the knowledge that Shea is a much more dynamic driver and also is going to be a bigger player for Andrew Nemhard to have to wrangle with. I think that's the most fascinating thing about what they're going to be doing defensively is how many people even, even more so than who. It's the volume of defenders that he's.

Zach Lowe (52:35)

Going to see that's really interesting because the sort of, I think the, the most common way or not strategy. But if Oklahoma City loses, it's the strategy is often. Well, you know, we saw it against Dallas in last year's playoffs Denver series. This year's playoffs is take away Shay's pick and roll game. Whether it's through zone or extra help or whatever and just bet against their three point shooters and if you. And they're only shooting 33.5% from three in the, in the playoffs despite getting hot against Minnesota. And just sort of bet that Chet misses a lot of threes and Caruso misses threes and Dort misses threes. And what you're positing is almost the opposite of that, which is just, just make Shay do everything and take away their rhythm and see what happens. That's. It's really interesting and not necessarily intuitive to, to me, but it's, but it's interesting and obviously you can mix. You can do both in the course of a game and sort of try to keep them off balance. But that's. That's a really interesting thought.

Caitlin Cooper (53:38)

Yeah. Because that, that was exactly. I didn't expect them to do that against Cleveland because it's not what they did against Cleveland during the regular season either.

Zach Lowe (53:44)

Cleveland's a great shooting team and they.

Caitlin Cooper (53:46)

Set a ton of nail help towards Mitchell and Garland in the two regular season games. And the Cavs love when the defender from the wing goes over to the nail that they'll do those slide cuts. The player from the corner goes to the dunker, the player at the wing slides into the corner and it makes it very hard on that nail defender to chase back out. The Pacers are basically like we're going to take away that lyricism and that's what they did. Now obviously Oklahoma City's offense is different than Cleveland's, but I will be very curious to see how they start that off and what it looks like. But I do think to your point when you said that about zone, it's possible that the Pacers might mix in a little bit of zone. They have not done that much during the playoffs, but in the one game against OKC they did and they'll likely put Tyrese at the bottom and the one thing that benefits them there is is if Tyrese is at the bottom of his own the Thunder love running inverted actions and guard screens. They run more guard screens than anybody in the NBA. That was an issue for the Pacers against the Bucks. The AJ Green inverted for Giannis was like nightmare fuel for them for a lot of games and if Tyrese's guardian.

Zach Lowe (54:50)

I can't believe we're. I can't believe we're talking about AJ Green screening for y. I mean it was that the Yan the Bucks dating to Malcolm Brogdon and Pat Connaughton have done this. Like Giannis getting a flat Screen from a shooter is like a major, major problem. But you're right that the Thunder are the best in the league and the most experienced in the league at guard, guard screens. Whether it's, you know, it's going to be a way they hunt Halliburton, obviously, and they could do it with, you know, Shea screening for Halliburton's guy. Either. Either way. But your point is, I guess that the zone sort of takes that out of the game plan, right?

Caitlin Cooper (55:22)

Because they had back to back possessions in the game in March, toward the end of the third quarter where it was either Jarris Walker or Pascal Siakam as the on ball defender with Tyrese as the screener defender and just that guy leaking out. A lot of times they want to use Tyrese with the show and then he doesn't get back in time to the player leaking out. The player at the corner that has to lift up and help and then they're giving up corner threes. So they had issues with that against Milwaukee and yeah. So if you, if you can run some zone, not only to disrupt Shay, hopefully that Thunder saw more zone during the regular season than any team. They've seen more zone during the playoffs than any team. You're also getting the dual benefit of Tyrese isn't being hunted as much because he's playing at the bottom. And in the one game against okc, they didn't even just play zone, they played zone. And then Tyrese matched up on a flash to the high paint and they went man mid possession and then they started switching after that. I've seen a lot of NBA teams, that's like the biggest trend I've noticed across the NBA this year is mixed defenses. Teams starting out in zone and then having a trigger point, whether that's the trigger being a high post touch, whether it's the ball going to a certain side of the floor, maybe it's one or two passes. But teams are looking for an advantage of confusion like how can we disrupt that offense. So we'll see if they're willing to go to some of that too. Obviously the two prior opponents, Denver went to it a ton and Minnesota mixed it in some.

Zach Lowe (56:40)

Listen, people, you're ready for the finals now. You know, I did a big preview with Kurt Goldsberry the other day. You can listen to that. Caitlin Cooper has got you set up for everything that Indiana is going to try to do to narrow the gap. How much fun are you having, by the way? What a, what a blast this team is. Did you. When did you sense that maybe there's something, something here. Like when did you start to believe that this team could get this far?

Caitlin Cooper (57:06)

There was probably three inflection points when Andrew Nemhard was off the minutes restriction and he was looking like an all NBA caliber defender and was definitely the spearhead of the transformation that they made on that end of the floor. Along with, you know, not as many turnovers. Siakam really coming into his own and finding a role. There was a lot of factors, but that was number one, because I always thought that the offense would get back to being the offense once Tyrese was back to being himself. There was always the question of could they make a big enough leap defensively? And they did, which deserves credit to the coaching staff, deserves credit to a lot of players making individual defensive strides. But then I think the two game stretch, when they got the win over Cleveland and snapped their win streak in the second half, and they were doing it with really extensive ball pressure, turning the Cavs over in the backcourt and doing that against a very, very good basketball team, I was like, this is something. And then when they went into Boston and Tyrese tied his career high for points in the paint, and he was being a lot more persistent as a driver, albeit against a Boston defense that prefers to run people off the line. But to see him do that without stopping himself, things were all coalescing at once. And then obviously, like Aaron Neesmith's made a lot of strides over the back end of the season since his ankle injury as well, which probably deserve more words and, and talking than even I've given him, despite the fact that I've written about him. But yeah, I think that all three of those things, and then the fact that they had their own version of March Madness with game winner after game winner after game winner, and they kept finding a way to win games and they kept finding a way to do it in a different way. That was very meaningful to me as well. And they've continued pulling off some of those miracles in this playoff run as well. So definitely the funnest season that I've had covering the pacers in the 10 years that I've done it.

Zach Lowe (58:44)

Yeah, the Tyrese paint thing is super interesting. And Bill and I went live after their game four win against the Knicks, and that's what really impressed me about that performance from him. And obviously it was like, what was it, a 3015 kind of game. It was a crazy game, but it was the Knicks, like many teams do, saying, we're going to make you play like Chris Paul we're going to make you play slower, go over screens, meander into the pain with a guy on your hip. We know you don't want to do that, we know you want to get the machine moving. And he took what they were giving him and played like Chris Paul and made mid range shots, layups like that. When he is able to mix in every part of his game even against his nature, that's when you get the A plus Halliburton games. And obviously they're going to need minimum two A plus Halliburton games to have any shot in this series. Caitlin Cooper the Patreon is basketball, she wrote. You can subscribe. I subscribe. You can buy some T shirts. I also have the jump passes are good T shirt which is which gets a lot of questions around the neighborhood. Just, just yesterday I went to pick up my daughter's friend for the swim team carpool and her mom said when we're jump pass is bad and I was like how much time you have? Do you really want to know the answer to this question and why this shirt exists? Caitlin Cooper thank you for your insight. You make all of us smarter and we'll talk soon.

Caitlin Cooper (60:01)

Thanks so much for having me.

Zach Lowe (60:04)

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Jeff Green (61:52)

I'm good, I'm good. And yes, I am only 1 of 2 Continue to play that play for the Sonic. So holding on strong, you and Kevin.

Zach Lowe (62:03)

Durant, who was a childhood friend of yours. Correct. And in watching film of some of your key moments of your career, I had forgotten you were the inbound passer to Kevin Durant in Brooklyn, Milwaukee, Game seven for the foot on the line three pointer that almost won the series.

Jeff Green (62:20)

I was, I was a little upset that he wore a size 18, but you live with the punches and you happy you put yourself in that position. So wish we won because I think that would have been another ring on my resume.

Zach Lowe (62:38)

So, Seattle, original, original Thunder player, what are your memories from like knowing you're going to move to Oklahoma City? I don't remember exactly when everybody knew that the move was going to happen. And then uprooting your life after one year in the NBA, after, by the way, you got traded at the draft from Boston to Seattle. So what do you just what do you remember from that year? It must have been a strange year.

Jeff Green (63:03)

It was like you said from the jump, getting traded at draft night for Ray Allen, going to Seattle and then going out Seattle. And shortly after, we get a notice that the Seattle SuperSonics are being bought by Clay Bennett. But at that point we thought we were staying in Seattle. He didn't make it clear of any sort that we were moving to Oklahoma. And then throughout the season, we kind of heard chirping of us moving. And then towards the end it was, you know, we're leaving and it was kind of upsetting because you fall in love with the community, you fall in love with the city. Everything that's a part of your first year, where you at, you embrace it. The city embraced us and it was kind of disappointing to move, but it's a business first. We realized that quick due to the move. But we enjoyed the city of Seattle. They embrace us, they gave us love, even though we had a terrible season. When you look back at it. But we love the city of Houston, so we were a little hurt that we did have to move.

Zach Lowe (64:15)

What is your favorite PJ Carlos Samo story from the year and a half he coached you in the NBA because that's one of the great mismatches of personality, experience, coach versus super young, rebuilding team. Like, what? Give me just a go to. This was what life was like under pj.

Jeff Green (64:35)

Well, the first sight was just like, you know, growing up, you hear about the story. Everybody knows about the Latrell spirit world story, and that's the first thought that goes through your mind. I was like, damn, he got coach choked out by a player. But off the court, he was an amazing, amazing guy. Love drinking wine. Some days you smoked it in the morning on his body, but it was like, he's a great guy, so why was free will do that? Then you get on the court, and he's very intense, and you're like, wait, who is the guy? That's. You know, who's this guy? You know, he's MF for you, and. But, you know, he pushes. You know, he pushes to be better. He coaches hard, and, you know, you kind of related to it after a while. Being young, you just wanted to make a. Make a mark for yourself, wanted to be loved by everybody, and you wanted to do whatever it took to get on the floor. So we embrace this hard coaching, and, you know, we kind of rolled with the punches of, you know, the way that he spoke to us and the way that he got us to go play.

Zach Lowe (65:38)

You move to Oklahoma City, Russ joins the team, Ibaka joins the team, and you grow up as part of this young core.

Jeff Green (65:49)

Yeah.

Zach Lowe (65:49)

Now you get. You get traded out of it. We'll get there, but I. And then you play with James and KD again in Brooklyn, and you've moved around a lot, obviously, like those formative years. You guys go. You. Some of you go through the move to Oklahoma City. You go through a coach getting fired and Scott Brooks coming in. You go through the growth process from bad team to good team real fast. How close are you all now? Like, who are you still close with from. From those days? Because that's a. That's a special experience. Even though you got sort of ejected out of it earlier than you probably wanted to.

Jeff Green (66:25)

Oh, yeah. I mean, we all wanted to just grow our careers together, obviously. But like I said, business is part of the game, and I'm close with pretty much all of them. We all have the same relationship, but different. If I had to put an order, probably Me and Russell are still closer because, you know, we have, you know, kids, similar age, our wives know each other. You know, he came to my wedding when I got married, he was there. So I would say me and him kind of grew closer. But you know, Kevin, you know, me and him go way back before, you know, this NBA started. So, you know, our relationship is still strong. Me and James still strong, being able to play with him multiple times in my career. We still hold vibe relationship. So I'm pretty close with everybody, but I think that's due to my personality and you know how I am. So, you know, we all stay in touch in some form, whether that be, you know, when we see each other or just through text. So that the relationships are so strong.

Zach Lowe (67:28)

When you win the championship for the Nuggets a couple of years ago, are they, are they texting? Like who's the first or who's the first one you hear from of those guys?

Jeff Green (67:38)

I know I heard from Kevin, you know, being that he already won one the probably, I think, yeah, the first one. One out of a. That core of okc. I heard from him, heard from Russia. I didn't hear from James though. But you know, I wasn't sure about it at that moment. I didn't give a damn who texted me. I was just having fun. So, you know, the love was definitely there. They supported, you know, and I was rooting for, you know, Russell this year to win one, hopefully with Denver due to the relationships I still have on that team. So, you know, it's, it was, it was bittersweet that we all don't have one. But you know, it is what it is.

Zach Lowe (68:26)

Okay, let's go to your actual time in Oklahoma City.

Jeff Green (68:29)

Okay.

Zach Lowe (68:29)

2010 playoffs, your first. You go from like a 20 something, 30 something win team to a 50 win team, 22, something like that. And you face, you face the Lakers in the playoffs, like the defending champion lakers. You go down 20 in LA, you come back and tie it at 2 in Oklahoma City in the first playoff games that city has seen from the Thunder. It's Powell, it's Kobe, it's Bynum, it's Odom, it's all the old head Lakers. What do you remember about. That's just, I mean I covered that playoff series not in person, but I was watching it. I loved it. It was so much fun. What do you remember? Just take games three and four at home, evening up that series and like telling the Lakers like, yeah, this like we're a young team. This ain't gonna be A walkover. Like, what do you remember about those games? That must have been so much fun.

Jeff Green (69:20)

Yeah, I remember the city they came out and supported. Man, that arena. I never been in an arena so.

Kendrick Perkins (69:27)

Loud.

Jeff Green (69:30)

Outside of game. Game five in Denver. That arena and okc, that third year in game three and four was, like, loud, like, rattling your. Your brain. Just like, I can't believe these people ain't here celebrating us as hard as they are. But we were one rebound away from, I think, pushing it to game seven. And I think it was that turning point for us to know, like, okay, we're capable of going against the best, because at that time, the Lakers were the. They were the best. I believe it was a 18 matchup. So it was. It was amazing to be a part of. I think it was the stepping stone of, you know, where we could be and how special we could be. So we really enjoyed that matchup. We really, you know, gave it all we had.

Zach Lowe (70:22)

You mentioned one rebound away. I watched the last few minutes of that game. Just to refresh my memory. You're up 94, 91 in game six in Oklahoma City. As the clock is ticking down, Russ misses some jump shots. That happens. And Powell gets an offensive rebound put back to put the lakers up by one with 0.5 seconds left in the game or something crazy like that. Maybe 1.5. Russ misses a totally hopeless heave three at the end. And I. And they cut to you, actually, after the game is over and you've got your head in your hands like this, just leaning it on your hand, just leaning down toward the floor, you looked, like, legitimately distraught. Do you remember? Like, were you as distraught as you looked? Did you remember what that feeling was?

Jeff Green (71:08)

Because we're in the moment. You never think that you can lose. You never think it's going to be over. And in my mind, I was very confident that we can win that series. And like I said, when you're in a moment, you're not thinking about, oh, when, if we lose this game, the game is over, the emotions are gonna go like this. No, you. You don't know that feeling until that buzzer goes off and you're like, oh, wait, this is over. And I think all those emotions and the confidence, it was kind of like a. A blow to the stomach. It was like, man, like, it's really over. And, you know, with the group that we had, I think we had a special group, and we could have, you know, did some special things in the playoffs. So for me, it was just that. That feeling that we're like, man, like, I can't believe this is over and not knowing where it was going to lead to, but I was just very distraught of, you know, how it ended. One rebound and, you know, what could have been.

Zach Lowe (72:09)

Kobe goes around hugging everybody from your team and saying a few words to everybody, and I think I see him hug you on the video. Do you remember anything that you said from that moment?

Jeff Green (72:19)

I'll be honest, no. No, I don't, like. Because you're still, like, in awe. So for me, it was just giving my respects and, you know, moving on.

Zach Lowe (72:29)

Do you remember the locker room after the game? Any. Any memories of, you know, it's. It's your first sort of, like, gut punch end of the season as a young team. I don't know if Scotty says something, if anyone, if any of the players say something. What do you do that night after the game? What are your memories of that?

Jeff Green (72:42)

I know we were all hurt. We all were confident in what we were able to do and our ability to, you know, go against the Lakers. I think the first two games, it was kind of just like a. We're in this moment, and we were kind of, like, in awe. And then we kind of came back third, and it was like, all right, let's just play our game. And that's what we did. And for it to be over, I think we were all just hurt. We were just, you know, mad that that moment has come where the season was over with after all the hard work we. We put in from the last two seasons to get to that point when going for 22 wins to 50 plus 50 wins, I think. So it was definitely something that we look back at now and, like, it was the missed opportunity, you know, from one rebound. So I think we were. A lot of guys were hurt.

Zach Lowe (73:29)

I'm guessing you felt individually, like, well, we're going to be right back at this for a lot of years. 100, and then the next year you get traded to Boston for perk. And you've. I read some of your old quotes on that trade. It was. It was emotional for you to get taken out of that group and go to a team that was in a different state. And you talked about how you were replacing sort of a fan favorite, too, which made it a little harder for you. But I wonder, like, who told you about the trade and. And how hard. How hard was it for you?

Jeff Green (74:07)

Yeah, I remember Sam called me. It was the last minute of the trade deadline because we were all watching it. We were in San Antonio about To leave for Orlando. You know, like every team, they pushed that time back an hour because you know something could happen within that last hour. So you don't want to be on the bus, you don't be midair flight. So I remember they pushed our time back to fly out to go to Orlando. And I got the call at like 2250 and it was, hey guy, hey. You know, you know, hate tip for me, but you know, we're gonna trade you to Boston. And it was kind of like a shock. You know, I'm thinking that, you know, we'll never break up, we're family. And you know, I was never going to move on from okc. You know, I'm drafted and playing with the guy who are grew up with from the same area five to 10 minutes apart. So yeah, in Kevin Durant, that storyline there and you grow relationships. Had a relationship with Russell James, Nick Collison, Sepalosha, Eric Maynard. So we, we all had a tight knit group and to break it up. And I was the first domino of that. It was very, I was very, very upset, Very, very upset. But at the end of the day, I looked at it as opportunity to grow knowing in the situation I was going to, young guy, going to a veteran team, being able to play with some legends and you know, Rondo, Paul, kg, Ray Allen, I mean I played with Shaq my first year that I was there. I was, I was, I was kind of shocked to be in that locker room, you know, kind of like a deer in headlights, you know, not knowing what to do, how to act based off just who I was around and not trying to, you know, get on anybody nerves, pretty much breaking up what they had, knowing that they lost a fan favorite, a team favorite. So it was, I was kind of kind of confused, kind of just, you know, lost pretty much in that situation in the first couple of months I was there.

Zach Lowe (76:22)

Was it hard to watch the 2012 Finals when the Thunder get there and play Miami? Was it hard to watch that? Were you rooting for the Thunder? Were you. How was, how was that for you?

Jeff Green (76:32)

Of course I was rooting for him because obviously when you're part of an environment, you take on the environment. And at that time LeBron James and the Miami Heat were enemies. So you take on that and not just taking on that. That Persona is, you know, these are the, they're going against some guys who I have close relationships with. And I'm not, I'm not no hater. Like I want them to win because I still had that, that Bond with them. So I was definitely rooting for them.

Zach Lowe (77:07)

With them back in the finals. Now, do you still feel a connection to that city and that franchise or is the sort of cold reality of the business and moving around and that obviously there's nobody there left player wise? And I mean, Collison is still there in the front office, but. But, you know, does it beat it out of you or is there still some part of you that's like, this is kind of cool? Like, are you texting Kevin and Russ about like, I can't believe they're back in the finals?

Jeff Green (77:31)

No, no, no, no. But I still, I mean, I talked to Sam Presti, just shot him a text. I was like, congratulations. But I still root for him. I've been. Like you said, I've been on a lot of teams and every team that I've been to, you know, I leave. I believe I lead with a mark. I believe that I've gained relationships that'll never go away. And I still root for people. I wish people well. So. But I do have friends on the Indiana Pacers, you know, Thomas Bryant, who was in Denver, James Johnson, who's a great friend of mine. So, you know, I don't have. I'm like 50, 50. I just want to see a great series.

Zach Lowe (78:14)

I like it. 50, 50. Where were you when James Harden got traded? And who do you from? From. From the Thunder. From the Thunder. And who. Who's like the first. In my head you have like a group text with all the Thunder guys being like, what the hell just happened? Where were you? Who do you talk to? Like, that's an all time NBA earthquake.

Jeff Green (78:33)

Well, back then, group checks was. It wasn't in back then.

Zach Lowe (78:36)

Oh, my God. Are we that old? Yeah, I guess we are.

Jeff Green (78:39)

We kind of aged ourselves with that one. But I, I can't remember who I spoke with. I think I was just kind of like, wow, like they really traded James and just six man in the year. You know, a valuable piece of what they just did get into the Finals. Like, how do you let something like that go? You know, and. But at the end of the day, you realize that it is a business because it just happened to you a year before. So it's, you know, it's like, all right, you know, let's see what he can do in his opportunity in Houston. And as history writes, I think he did really well. So for him, I think it was the best move for okc. I think, you know, people say it was because of a couple million dollars that they didn't want to match. They let him go but we'll never know the truth. But you know, I think it worked out for both teams.

Zach Lowe (79:31)

Jeff Green, what are your plans for the off season? What we going to see it back in the NBA? I assume we the league can't get rid of you. You're bouncing around you're always beloved teammate. Like I don't think I think people know that, but not to the degree that it's that it's true. Like you want to stick with this, right?

Jeff Green (79:48)

Yeah, of course I want to play as long as I can. The goal is to get to 20 years too shy and Houston is has been home for me for the last couple years and I want to keep it that way and hopefully we can make something work where I can retire there. Whether it be 20 or 21 years. My wife says 20 and that's it. So I think I have I think I know what that that is. So two more years it is, you know, making it 20. But you know, I love the situation in Houston. I want to keep playing and like you said, I've been doing this for a while, but I hold the record for the most teammates. But I can't help it that a lot of guys want to be my teammate. So it's been fun. It's been a long journey. But I love this game. I'm still passionate about it. I still love to work out. I just got done working out so I want to keep it going until I can no more because it's only a short window when we get to play this game that we love.

Zach Lowe (80:48)

Any final favorite Oklahoma City Related Story Thought restaurant anything? We didn't get that when the words Oklahoma City are said to you comes into your mind. Otherwise, appreciate the time and the stroll down memory lane.

Jeff Green (81:03)

I mean, for me, every time I visit Oklahoma City when I play, it's all about the people. Because when I first got there, never been to Oklahoma, the people embraced us, they welcomed us, they gave us so much help throughout the city as far as getting around. And then just to think about how the city was when I first got there compared to how it is now is night and day. The growth of the city, the money that people put in that city is. It's amazing to see. And I'm, you know, I'm proud of the city, of how, how it's grown and happy for the city and how the team has played for them to get them to this point. So I know they're hoping for a championship. I know they celebrate like no Other they were to win, and, you know, maybe they will. I guess we'll see.

Zach Lowe (82:02)

Jeff Green, like a true. Like. Like a media member and a true fan, just wants a good Finals. Just wants to. Just wants a good, long, good, exciting Finals. Hey, man, I know you're busy. It's the off season. You got family. Thanks for making a little time, and I'll see you down the road. Good luck this offseason.

Jeff Green (82:15)

I appreciate it. Thank you.

Zach Lowe (82:19)

All right, we're going to wrap our Oklahoma City Thunder Nostalgia Tour, day one with the other end of the Jeff Green Kendrick Perkins trade. Oh, my God, it's Kendrick Perkins. I used to work with you all the time. How you doing, big fella?

Kendrick Perkins (82:32)

I'm all right. Zach, man, what's going on with you? I miss you, man, but, you know, just working and looking forward to these finals, man. Two young teams happy to be back in Oklahoma City. How you feeling?

Zach Lowe (82:45)

I'm good, man. I'm going to see you at the finals at some point. I'm not sure when, but I'll see you there.

Caitlin Cooper (82:50)

We'll.

Zach Lowe (82:50)

We'll say hello. I want to. I want a big perk Bear hug. I miss my perk Bear hugs.

Kendrick Perkins (82:56)

I got you.

Zach Lowe (82:57)

So you're live from Oklahoma City, and that's why I wanted to have you on. I wanted to, you know, it's been a long and interesting path back to the finals for the Thunder, and I wanted to have some sort of a OG Thunder people on. Does this. Does this. You know, it's a business. You got traded out, Oak. You left Boston, Oklahoma City, you bounced around the league. Now you're in the media. Does. Does the business kind of beat the nostalgia out of you, or does this still mean something to you? To be back in Oklahoma City where you were for your prime, a lot of your prime in the finals? Does it mean something? Do you see the Thunder in the finals?

Kendrick Perkins (83:31)

Oh, absolutely, Zach. I mean, especially when, you know, from the time you step foot, you know, off the airplane, you. You feel the. The love and it. It brings back memories and make you realize, you know, why you missed this place and why you. You know, why I miss being here and playing in front of these fans. They're the best fans in the world. And, you know, just walking into that arena, you know, especially during the Western Conference finals and just seeing one thing they have is stability, right? And you see all the old faces. I saw all old faces of when I was playing from, you know, Coach Mac, who's the security guard, to Iyana, who was working as Sam Presti, personal assistant. So, you know, all these faces are still here some, you know, almost 13 years later. And so when you, you think, when you look back, you like, damn. You know, you see the kids that were babies, now they all grown up and it's just like a big family reunion, man. And the love that you feel. I mean, you know, to be honest, my wife and I was talking about, shoot, should we move back?

Zach Lowe (84:43)

Look at that. Well, I was rereading, I was rereading your book. Look at this. I can promote it on video. The Education of Kendrick Perkins. I wanted to get back familiar with, with what you said and you talked about, you know, you get, you get traded from Boston to Oklahoma City. You've talked a lot about the emotion of that trade and you know, crying with KG and just how, how hard it was to leave those Boston guys. And we've, I don't want to rehash that. We know that part, but I. In the book you talk about Oklahoma U. Oklahoma University and how that was sort of the nickname for how the team carried itself in practice and how that sort of surprised you, this whole Oklahoma U mindset. So tell people what, what mean by that and what it was like entering, entering as the old head, really on a young team.

Kendrick Perkins (85:30)

Well, I mean, Zach, and that's a great point because, you know, when I first got here, I didn't know what to expect, right? You come from a championship team with a lot of veterans and all of a sudden you come to this young squad that. Yes, we've been watching and we saw them get put out the year before by the Los Angeles Lakers, right, Kobe and the Lakers. And when I got here, I didn't know. And they were on the road and at that time, before they built the new practice facility, by the way, one of the best practice facilities in the entire league. I mean, people need to really do a tour and feature. The Oklahoma City Thunder practice facility is one of one. But let me say this. I arrive in Oklahoma and when I get here, the team is on the road playing the Orlando Magic. So they're flying home at night, they're on, they're off of back to back. Right? And so I'm thinking usually when you have back to backs, you have days, the next day is automatically off. That's how it was in Boston. Well, it wasn't like that in Oklahoma City. Right. They landed late from Orlando, they took it. L came, they landed. Next thing you know, I get a text, hey, practice at 11 o' clock. And I'm like practice? Sure. It's not treatment, weight room. No, it's practice. And when I walked in, Kevin Durant was already working out on the floor, like, going through a full workout. Three. Three coaches, you know, working them out, double team and triple team. And he getting to his spots. And so I'm like, okay, maybe he's just getting his work in and getting out of here. You know, probably. We probably go have a film session and a walkthrough. Well, then I see James come on to the floor. James Harden, he comes on, he get his individual work in. And they say, I know Scott Brooks. Like, let's get it in. Let's start practice. And they started going live. Now, I was injured at the time, at the time with a strange mcl, but they started going live, and I mean, going hard. And this is off of back to back. And I'm like, what the hell? Like, these are the days we supposed to have off. Like, these are automatic off days, and these dudes out here really going at it on the back to back. So after practice, again, this is when we were practicing in the skating ring, right? They turned the skating ring into the first practice facility that the Oklahoma City Thunder ever had. So after practice, I go in there and have a conversation with Scott Brooks. First time meeting him face to face since the trade. And he like, pert, man, I need you to bring that leadership. I need you to be our anchor. He's going over our road, this, that, and the other. And he said, let me tell you something. I call this under you. Because these guys go hard. It's like a college. They don't take days off. We work hard. It's the atmosphere in the arena. It was just. And everything about it was just exactly what he called it. So then all of a sudden, the next day, we got a game. I walk into the arena, and I'm blown away again. I haven't played a minute. So I walked into the arena, I'm blown away by the energy of the arena, and I'm just like, oh, damn. Shit. This is what college feels like.

Zach Lowe (88:46)

Wow. Well, you get there, you make the conference finals in your first year there, you lose to the Mavericks, who go on to win the title. Then you make the finals in 2012. You win game one at home, lose game two, people. People may not remember. You think Durant was fouled on that jumper to try to tie the game? You think LeBron fouled him?

Kendrick Perkins (89:09)

I don't know. I know he fouled them on the baseline. They didn't call it. I Know that that drive KD had on the baseline, LeBron filed him. I mean, did he file him on the jumper? I believe he did, but we don't want to revisit that, though.

Zach Lowe (89:22)

Zach, what do you remember? So that finals ends, 4:1, Miami. And there's the famous shot of Russ, KD and Harden, arms around each other's shoulders on the bench, kind of soaking it in. Everyone thinks, you know, this. This team's gonna be back here X amount of times. What do you remember about the locker room after that game or the. The flight back after that game? Is there a conversation, Is there a moment? Like, what are your. What are your flashbulb memories of that. That game, post game scene?

Kendrick Perkins (89:55)

Well, it was more so, you know, Scott Brooks congratulating us on the wonderful season. Derek Fisher spoke up, I've spoke up, said a few things, and we were kind of like, we just got to keep building, and we know what it takes now to get over the hump. Like, we faced the team that was starving for a championship. We was just happy to be there as guys. Well, those young guys. And they didn't expect. Well, they didn't know what to expect until Miami actually, you know, made. Made us smell like cologne. But here's the thing. I believe Zach, Kevin Durant, Russ and James, they went to the Olympics right after that, right? In 2012.

Zach Lowe (90:46)

Okay, London Olympics.

Kendrick Perkins (90:48)

They went to the Olympics in 2012. Yup, they went to the Olympics and they went. That's when KD went. KD and James.

Zach Lowe (90:57)

Yeah, they're all. They're all on that team. You're right.

Kendrick Perkins (90:59)

They're all on that team. And so they get back, and we in training camp, and I remember KD telling me, he's like, man, we're gonna lose James. And I was like, huh? He was like, man, we're gonna lose James. He ain't gonna sign this contract extension. I'm like, I know, Sam, go. You know, give him the bag. He earned it. 6 Man of the year. Like, promising future. Keep it all together. He was like, man, no perk is bigger than that. And I'm like, well, what you mean? He's like, bro, the whole time we was in the Olympics, everybody kept telling James that he needed his own team. So I'm like, word. He like, yeah, man. And James feel like he want his own team. So when I hollered at James, I'm like, james, what you think? He was like, nah, I want the max. And I was like, I think they gonna give you the max. I think the Max. I think Sam Preston made the offering. I think it was what, 60, 64, maybe a little high, something like that. He's like, nah, I wanna be a Max player. I wanna be the franchise. And I was like, James, he's gonna make sure. He's like, nah, I wanna be that dude. And man, we went into training camp and he didn't sign the extension. And then all of a sudden, next thing I know, he was traded to Houston. And I'm like, what the hell? Like that quick. But he wanted his own team all along. It turns out he really was right. He was that dude. Because when he got to Houston, he took off, Zach. He took off and up this game another level.

Zach Lowe (92:31)

You get Kevin Martin and some, some picks young guys back. And I, and I think fans now, now that so much time has passed, the next three seasons are kind of glossed over a little bit. Injuries messed up your playoff runs in 13, 14, 15, you don't even make the playoffs. Fifteen, the whole team's decimated. And then everyone kind of fast forwards. From 2012, Harden trade to Klay Thompson game in 2016. In between that are two long playoff runs. In 2013, Russ messes up his knee. 2014, you lose to the spurs in the conference finals in an absolutely epic series where Surge misses the first two games. I wonder what those two seasons mean to you personally. And what, what, I mean, you get traded the following year to Cleveland. But those two seasons are. I mean, they Thunder won 60 something games. The first one, 58, the next one. Like, those are great teams. Bad injury, luck. Like, could those teams have won the whole thing if they were healthy?

Kendrick Perkins (93:37)

Well, I believe we definitely would have made it back to the finals. Well, let me say this. We could blame LeBron D. Wade, all those other guys that won the 2012 Olympics on why the 2012, why the Thunder? The young Thunder, big three were broken up because they put into James head that he needed to be the man. And they was right, though. They was right. They was right. James did what was best for James. But I will say this in the, in those times, right, I got to see growth and I got to experience growth and be part of greatness, right? Especially when you look at Kevin Durant when Russell Westbrook went out his MVPCs and what he was doing, how he's playing that point forward, you know how he was.

Zach Lowe (94:25)

Slim reaper, slim peak. Slim Reaper season.

Kendrick Perkins (94:27)

Yes. Yes, man. Yes. I mean it was, it was a special moment. I think he had like that it was a, a streak of 25 points per game type streak, I believe it was. He was on. I think he. At one point, he had, like, I believe, what, 13, if I'm not mistaken. But anyway, it was a. Zach, it was one of the moments where you just seen him zone out, right? Like he wanted. That was. That was the moment right there, that MVP season where Kevin Durant wanted to put the world on notice that, hey, like, I'm one of the best, if not the best basketball player in the world. Like, I could do it all. I watched him borderline help Sergio Baka getting to the All Star Game, right? Like he was making plays. Surge was averaging a career high at the moment. Probably should have made the All Star Game. But Kevin Durant, that growth, I was able to see him grow in certain times. I was able to see, you know, somebody write an article about him, call him Mr. Unreliable. I believe it was in that same season, if I'm not mistaken, it was during a mem.

Zach Lowe (95:39)

It was during a Memphis playoff series where he missed a couple. There was some stuff that you guys ended up winning that series in seven.

Kendrick Perkins (95:45)

I think we was down. We was down three, two. I believe it was heading to Memphis. And we went. Got game six in Memphis. Obviously KD and Russ did they thing, but Reggie Jackson had his moment, I believe it was. And then we went on to win game seven. But I remember how pissed off KD was about the article because it was Mr. Unreliable. And at that moment, Rudy Gay had punched him in the mouth in game one and game two and sent the message, zach Rando punched me in the mouth. And all of a sudden, the response, the growth. So, I mean, I just remember just seeing KD grow into his own in those moments and be able to grow through adversity.

Zach Lowe (96:29)

How has your job in the media complicated your relationship with those guys, particularly Kevin, who's gone at you at Twitter a few times.

Kendrick Perkins (96:38)

I mean, it's hard. It's hard because, you know, Zach, you can't. You can't straddle the fence, right? And you gotta call it, like you said, especially a guy, you know, when you're a franchise guy and you retire, they roll the red carpet out for you in the media, right? You kind of don't even have to do too much, right? They just give you a platform. But when you're a role player, although I was a champion and played 14 years, I had to earn my way, right? Especially here at espn. And so I had to be real all across the board. And I think you know who I am, a guy that's Going to speak his mind, which I've been the same person that I am on tv. I was the same guy in the locker room. So I don't know why people get so offended. But yeah, it has hurt some feelings. But I always say, Tom, he'll wounds you know what I mean? So I don't get too caught up in it. I continue to do my job because I look at it like this, Zach. I left my, my basketball career. I closed that chapter of my life. And I've been locked in and focused on this career ahead of me. So I don't even too much harp on it no more. And I'll be like, you know, I got a saying that I got that I picked up from my boy Marcus Spears, big swagu. He was like per. You know how many people get mad at me on a day to day basis? You know what I always say? They'll be all right. So that's how I just approach it. They'll be all right. We're just talking sports.

Zach Lowe (98:05)

You talk about in your book and I. You've talked about it, I think on TV before that you could feel the Russ KD connection fraying a little bit or you could feel some. I mean, you talk about in your book how everyone had their own crews, that they hung out with their crews more than the team itself. Whatever could you feel like? Could you. Did you picture it reaching a point where Kevin would actually leave the team?

Kendrick Perkins (98:32)

No, I never saw that coming. I didn't see that coming. And I think, you know, one did. Him and Rusty out of eye. No, I mean they were able to coexist, right? They had a lot of success together. They didn't win the championship, but they won a lot of games, put up a lot of big numbers, like the legacy moments together between the two of them. But I think it was the combination of both. On why Kevin Durant left South Preston was a very good friend of mine. You know, he comes from the spurs culture, right? And so he falls from that tree. He fell from that. He, he falls from that tree. And so, you know, used to be kind of straight. Well, not kind of. Very, very, very strict on certain things. You know, when it came down to certain things about having your freedom and I think that was the breaking point with kd and once we saw him go to Golden State is when we saw him be more open, right? That's when you saw him start like speaking his mind more. He didn't have the burner account on Twitter. Like we started to see a different version of kd. And I think that's what just wanted to open up. So it was a combination of him and Russ just, you know, I guess, growing apart over time. So the relationship just ended. But also was a, you know, some doing. And I think if you ask Sam Preston this, he'll tell you as well. Some of that felt on his shoulders. If he had it, if he had a chance to do it all over again in that moment, would he have done things differently or been a little more lenient towards, you know, guys being able to be themselves, Right? Cause he still sound pressed to this day, But I'm starting to see, like, this young Thunder team, they starting to be able to be, you know, be themselves, right? Like, sga J Dub. Like, we know they personalities. We know Chip personality, like. And I think Sam grew over time, too, and I think he learned from that Kevin Durant situation as well.

Zach Lowe (100:44)

So we're playing the hits here. You know, kd, Russ, the finals, all that stuff. I'm just wondering as we wrap it up, like, when you think about your time in Oklahoma City, are there stories? Like, are there memories? You know, forget the hits, are there? Is there? Like, I remember that random dinner I had or that fan that said this to me or that teammate that I'm much closer with than maybe people realize, like, give me some, like, sort of off the beaten path, what this city, what this place means to you stories.

Kendrick Perkins (101:14)

Well, so, I mean, it's like. It's like this, right? It's like, when you get here, Zach, and to Oklahoma, the first thing you do is go down to the memorial, right, of the Oklahoma City bombing. And when you go down there, Judge Taylor, right, was the judge that was over that trial, right, for the Oklahoma City bombing. And he takes you. He takes you on this tour and he breaks it. He gives you all the insight that you want to know about the trial. And then at the end, he sums it all up by saying, you go see why this here bought our city and our state together like no other, right? And so when you feel that togetherness, when you see those shirts and everybody in the stands wearing their T shirts and people on TV like, man, OKC really into it. No, that's really them being together. That's who they are. And so, you know, when I think about that and I think about who was one of my closest friends and still a good friend, great friend of mine was actually Wilson Taylor, right? And Wilson Taylor was actually the assistant equipment manager at the time, but he was the son to Judge Taylor, and Wilson used to be with me all the time on the road, man, we used to hang out, used to come to the house, all this. And it's crazy because now he has graduated as like the lead guy now. And now he has, you know, a whole family. And I remember him as a youngster asking me questions about, you know, asking me questions about, you know, what it's like and how this. And just getting advice. So just see, like, everything go full circle. But, man, you know, we used to. My family and I, we used to go to KD restaurant after every game, go eat food over there Mickey Mantles. And you come back. Now Mickey Manos no longer exists. And we. Like what? Like, those are the moments. So, I mean, you know, from us buying a house out here in the first. The only NBA city that I played in, that we actually bought a home, having to get a tornado shelter installed and then leaving and signing the tornado shelter for the people who actually bought the house, like, that's crazy. You know what I mean? So just those little things, I mean, because that's what matters.

Zach Lowe (103:42)

Perk, it's great to see you. I'll see you soon in person at the finals. Thanks for going down memory lane with us about the Thunder. They're back. It's been a long, wayward journey. They're back and they're big. They're big favorites. Have you said your pick on TV yet? I. I assume you have, or.

Kendrick Perkins (103:56)

No, I'm being f. And let me say this. I don't want to disrespect Indiana because they're here for a reason. So I'm going to say Oklahoma is six. Now, do I feel that way? No. But I'm going say Oklahoma is six. I got Oklahoma winning this series and I'm giving Indiana two games. I believe they're going to win two games at home just because I don't want to disrespect them in their journey of reaching the NBA Finals.

Zach Lowe (104:24)

Yeah, fair enough. I mean, they're big underdogs. They're big underdogs because they're playing a 68 win team that's 12 and 4 in the playoffs with a scoring margin. That's crazy. I picked Thunder in five, so I. I suppose by your standards, I'm disrespecting the Pacers, but it's more that I'm respecting the Thunder. We'll see. Maybe the faces will surprise us. Perk, if this thing is two, two, come back to Oklahoma State. Boy, would that be fun.

Kendrick Perkins (104:47)

It would be fun. But let's see though.

Zach Lowe (104:50)

We'll see. All right, Perk. Thank you, sir. I'll see you soon, buddy.

Kendrick Perkins (104:52)

Thank you.

Zach Lowe (104:54)

All right, that's it for today's Zach Lowe show, Game one of the finals tomorrow. Buckle up. I might be on Bill's podcast after that show. We'll see. I will also do a special weekend episode between Games 1 and 2. What to look for in Game 2. Who the hell knows what's going to happen with the Pacers? They might be down 20 with 90 seconds left to win game one. Enjoy the finals, everybody. Thank you to Jesse, Jonathan and Isaiah on the production side. We'll see you shortly on the Zach Low show. Must be 21 and over and present in select states. For Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over in President D.C. gambling problem called 1-800-GamblingR or visit FanDuel.com RG call 1-887-897777 or is it ccpg.org org chat in Connecticut or visit MDGamblingHelp. Org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit GamblingHelpLinema. Org or call 800-327-5505, oh for 24. 7 Sport in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOP e n y or text Hope NY in New York.