The Zach Lowe Show (The Ringer)

Episode: Thunder and Nuggets Atop the West, Disasters at the Bottom, and Some Happy Surprises
Date: November 17, 2025
Guest: Mo Dakhil

Episode Overview

Zach Lowe (A) and guest Mo Dakhil (B) break down the NBA’s Western Conference hierarchy, focusing on the dominance of the Oklahoma City Thunder and Denver Nuggets, the remarkable number of teams imploding at the bottom, and unexpected bright spots—most notably the Toronto Raptors, Phoenix Suns, and Atlanta Hawks. The discussion is rich with in-depth analysis, memorable quotes, and explores both the league’s brightest and bleakest teams.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Dominance at the Top: Thunder & Nuggets

[04:10–24:30]

Oklahoma City Thunder

• Record-breaking Start: 13-1, best point differential in the league.
• Defensive Mastery: Allowing just 102.8 points per 100 possessions—6.5 points ahead of the #2 defense.
  (A, 08:40): “They have a gear they can get to defensively… you can see the other team just say, you know what, we just, it’s not, it’s not happening for us tonight."
• Depth & Chemistry: Even missing starters, new contributors consistently emerge.
  (B, 07:09): “They keep pulling guys. Their depth is unbelievable.”
• Shea Gilgeous-Alexander: Playing at MVP level, especially mastering tough mid-range shots in “dead zones.”
  (A, 10:45): “He dribbles into that space… and he loves that shot. It feels like it’s a 60% shot for him.”

Denver Nuggets

• Elite Offensive and Defensive Balance: 10-2, 2nd in both offensive and defensive rating.
• Nikola Jokic: Averaging 29p/13r/11a on insane efficiency (77% on twos) and doing things only Jokic can. (A, 13:58): “It’s just absolutely ridiculous how easy it is for him.”
• Defensive IQ & Flexibility: Frequent use of zone, seamless rotations, and defensive chemistry built over years.
  (A, 18:10): “You watch all the players, they move on a string, they have a good sense of what you want to do…”
• Camaraderie: Years of shared experience pay off, even as staff and role players rotate.
  (B, 20:06): “It’s chemistry. This group has been together... for like five years now.”

Are They on a “Collision Course”?

Both Zach and Mo agree these issues run deep and make other West contenders seem a tier below, saying that it feels like a “Western Conference Finals preview” well before Christmas.
(A, 22:30): “Oklahoma City, Denver is the (West) Finals to me... I have seen nothing to dissuade me from that.”

2. Catastrophic Collapses in the West

[24:30–40:00]

Five Disaster Teams

• Clippers: Injuries, chemistry issues, failed trades, lack of pick control.
• Grizzlies: Disengaged Ja Morant, injury bug, own their pick but no direction.
• Mavericks: Front office chaos, injuries, future uncertain despite owning their pick.
• Kings: Bleak future despite full tank ability, no direction or prospect of a clean rebuild.
• Pelicans: Young core isn’t developing, coach fired, worst record/readiness for a total teardown.

Most Hopeless Situation?

Mo picks the Kings as the bleakest:
(B, 28:51): "Even when they have the pick, they find a way to screw it up. It's so frustrating... there's no way out." (A, 31:14): “The Kings are unwatchable... I called them the Hindenburg of the NBA and said they were headed for a disaster season.”

3. Clippers Case Study: Failed Trades, Roster Mismatches

[40:00–47:49]

• Young Player Development Failure: Clippers have not developed young talent despite years of opportunity.
  (B, 41:26): "They just haven't developed young guys. It's a failure for them."
• John Collins/B. Beal Trades Flop: Intended to revamp roster but Collins' fit with Zubac and Harden has been disappointing. (B, 44:45): “I never felt like John Collins was Aaron Gordon... there was just a lot like I never would describe him that way because of the defense... [it's] been fine, but this team has so many problems.”
• Harden’s Burden: He’s been great statistically, but the team falls apart when he sits; fit issues remain unresolved. (A, 47:09): “That’s what I’m worried about is this guy’s been super durable... they are dead in the water when he sits.”

4. Coaching Chess: Crunch-Time Free Throw Strategy

[49:03–52:49]

• Scenario: Should Boston have intentionally missed a free throw up two with 1.6 seconds left?
• Coaches split: most would make the free throw for “risk aversion” but interesting strategy debate.

(A, 51:01): “I probably would just try to miss it... I think I would lean toward missing it.”
(B, 51:10): “I’m just making it because... worst case scenario, the only thing we get is overtime.”

5. Happy Surprises: Raptors, Suns, Hawks

[58:50–84:00]

Toronto Raptors

• Stunning Overachievement: 8-5, sixth in offense, seventh in net rating, all despite negative preseason expectations.
• Newfound Offensive Identity: Pace, transition, and ball movement, plus Rookie of the Year candidate-level Scottie Barnes.
  (B, 59:41): “I love Scotty Barnes, but... I love this team. I love the way they play offense. I think it’s a lot of fun.”
• Supporting Cast as “Found Money”: Jamal Shead, Mamu, and others all contributing in surprising ways.
  (A, 64:04): “Mamu may be the best value free agency signing of the entire offseason.”

Phoenix Suns

• 8-6 record, but schedule about to toughen up.
• Competitive Culture Shift: New coach has them playing hard, Booker returning to star form, Colin Gillespie’s emergence a shock.
  (B, 67:15): “The one thing that stands out more than anything else… how hard this team plays.”

Atlanta Hawks (Post-Trae Young Injury)

• Nine-game stretch of 7-2 without Young. Sixth in defense, and offensive identity transformed.
• Ball Movement & “By Committee” Offense: More creative, fewer dribbles, but crunch time question marks.
• Outlook for Trae Young’s Return: Intrigue over whether returning star will integrate or disrupt new, unselfish style. (A, 79:24): “They exchange places and the ball a lot... because everyone is pretty fast and athletic.”
  (A, 84:00): “If I’m the Hawks, I’m cool riding this out toward the summer... I kind of want to see what this looks like.”

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Thunder’s Defense:
  (A, 08:40): “They have a gear they can get to defensively. When you can see the other team just say, you know what, it’s not happening for us tonight.”

• On the Kings:
  (B, 28:51): “…I’d almost rather do the Fear Factor ones [spider tank] than have to pick which disaster... I think the easy answer is the New Orleans Pelicans, but I’m going to go with the Sacramento Kings.”

• On the Clippers' Development:
  (B, 41:26): "They just haven’t developed young guys... Zubac is their biggest win in terms of development. But really, like, you know, we had that little run…”

• On Raptors’ Growth:
  (A, 62:58): “Every year there’s one or two teams... where there’s this feedback loop of, all right, we all got to buy into playing a little bit differently... and then we start winning and the feedback loop kicks in…”

• On Hawks' Ceiling Without Trae Young:
  (A, 79:24): “It’s real easy for the Hawks and their fans to say, 'Okay, we don’t need him.' ...But there are a lot of universes in which Trae Young comes back and says, 'No, we’re playing my way.' ”

Timestamps of Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment / Topic | |-------------|---------------------------------------------------------| | 03:00–08:36 | Thunder’s Dominance, Defensive Mastery | | 13:56–24:30 | Nuggets' Play, Jokic’s Brilliance, Defensive IQ | | 24:30–31:14 | Catastrophic Collapse: Kings, Pelicans, Disaster Teams | | 40:14–47:49 | Clippers In Depth: Failed Trades, Marginal Value | | 49:03–52:49 | Coaching Decision: Free Throw or Miss? | | 58:50–65:40 | Raptors' Surprising Rise | | 67:15–70:34 | Phoenix Suns’ New Culture, Overachieving | | 71:50–80:00 | Hawks Without Trae: Style Changes, Possible Implications|

Takeaways for Listeners

• The Thunder and Nuggets are in a league of their own in the West—polished, relentless, and likely destined for an epic playoff showdown.
• The middle and bottom of the Western Conference is unprecedentedly dysfunctional; fans of those teams (especially Kings and Pelicans) have little hope for a quick turnaround.
• Happy surprises come in the form of buy-in and new coaching: Toronto, Phoenix, and Atlanta are all playing above expectations due to cultural change and unexpected player development.
• The big mystery: Can top-tier talent like Trae Young fit back into a team that has found a surprising new identity in his absence?
• Memorable moments include deep dives into coaching strategy, failed trades, and a humorous riff about preferring “Fear Factor” stunts to picking a disaster franchise.

Style & Tone

The podcast remains energetic, frequently humorous, rationally critical, and deeply informed by both insider context and basketball analytics. Zach and Mo blend detailed stats with observations about player body language, team culture, and coaching decisions—always aiming at the bigger picture in the NBA.

This summary should give any NBA fan—especially those who missed this week’s episode—a vivid, insightful roadmap of the West’s hierarchy, who matters, and whose season is already over, with some rays of hope if you know where to look.