← The Zach Lowe Show
The Zach Lowe Show
Thunder Even the Series at 1! Adjustments for Both Sides and East Preview.
01:48:11
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- [00:00]
Zach Lowe
This episode is brought to you by State Farm. The best passers see every angle of the floor to make the perfect assist, and State Farm is no different. They know the game inside and out and look at every angle to help set you up with a plan that fits your life and budget. Get the coverage that's right for you. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state. Foreign up on the Zach Lowe show, the Thunder. Even the Western Conference finals against the Spurs. It got a little dicey there at the end. There was a corner three. They could have got down to two with more than a minute to go. Boy, wouldn't have that have been fun. What did the Thunder do on both ends of the floor to get back in the series? Massive adjustments on both ends of the floor. A lot of Isaiah Hartenstein, a lot of hair pulling, a violent dunk that we'll talk about by Steph Castle. Just these games are between these two teams. Holy smokes. The level of play, the level of intensity, and unfortunately, injuries beginning to be a part of the story. Jalen Williams and Dylan Harper both leave game two, prognosis unclear for game three. De' Aaron Fox did not play game two. We'll talk about the injuries, how they'll impact the series. Jason Timf from Hoof tonight is here to go over all of that and what to expect in game three. Like the adjustments to the adjustments to the adjustments. And these two teams are going to test each other and and make each other stretch further than any other opponent could. Quickie we get to Knicks Cavs. I'm headed to Madison Square Garden for game two tonight. Game one. Whoo. Game one was a thing. Game one, not the finest moment for the Cleveland Cavaliers and Kenny Atkinson and James Harden and on and on. Can the Cavs respond? We go quickly on what we saw in game one, what adjustments we might see in game two. And then Kevin Harlan is here to just be fun, just talking basketball, talking words, talking language, talking iconic broadcast stuff. Why have him on now? Because his time at Amazon for the season just ended. Amazon Prime's coverage is over for the season, so we reflect on that and just the NBA in general. He's got some free time. I said, why not bring a legendary voice on? That's all coming up next on the Zach Lowe Show. The Zach Lowe show is brought to you by FanDuel. The conference finals are here. Think you know how it'll go down? Take your shot with FanDuel and get closer to the action. FanDuel is the best place to bet the teams, the players and plays during the NBA postseason. Build the same game parlay for a shot at a bigger payout or try live betting and jump into the action after tip off. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app now and play your game 21 or over in President Select States 18 or over in DC, Kentucky, Wyoming gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatinc Foreign. It's Thursday morning. I'm headed back to the world's most famous arena for Game two of whatever the hell that was that happened in Game one of Knicks Cavs. But before we do that, we got to download Game two last night. Thunder spurs the Thunder even it up one one. Look who's here for the first time. Jason Timf of Hoops tonight. Just grinding every night with videos that you have to watch. One of the guys, I always say if you want to know what happened in the game, not whose legacy is on the line and who choked and who stepped up under pressure, but like actually what happened in the game and also some of that other stuff. Jason Timfin Hoops tonight Part of the Volume Great podcast network Shout Out. Colin Coward, how are you doing bud?
- [03:38]
Jason Timf
Zach, it's an absolute honor to be here and I can't imagine a more fun playoff series to break down with you than this. Epic Spurs Thunder 1.
- [03:48]
Zach Lowe
It's been pretty epic so far, I would say. Before we get into the nitty gritty of Game two, Thunder make a whole pile of adjustments. A lot of stuff happens. It gets a little hairy at the end. They miss a hammer three. They ran hammer. I just Whenever the Spurs run hammer, I shout hammer to nobody. Like no one's in my office. Hammer. Like one of the assistant coaches on the bench would have cut it to 2 at the end of the game, but it missed. And then Stefan Castle had his ninth turnover of the night to basically end the game. But we'll get all to all that. There are two defining features of this series through two games and to me anyway, and perhaps going forward, one is unfortunately becoming injuries. And it's nine in the morning. We don't know what is the prognosis for Dylan Harper, who left with a hamstring strain or hamstring something last night in the third quarter, leaving the spurs with one of their three lead ball handlers. We don't know what the prognosis is for Jalen Williams, who, after a pretty good game one Following a long layoff due to a hamstring strain that has messed up his whole season, left the game again in the second quarter. I guess at the end of the first quarter it never appeared again. Poor Zora Stevenson, just chasing people around corridors at the Paycom center trying to get injury updates. And of course the Aaron Fox with the high ankle sprain hasn't played at all in this series and just zooming way out. I think it's pretty clear the spurs can win this series with two of their three guards. If Harper's out and Fox plays, they can win. If Fox is out and Harper plays, they can win four times in seven games. Not just like win another game. They can win the whole series. They almost came back and won last night with just Castle of the three of them available. Jason, I before we get to my second major theme of the series, I don't think the spurs can win with two of them out. If Harper's out and Fox is out and it's just left with Castle to do everything and then oh my God, what happened happens when he rests. We have to bring in Jordan McLaughlin and who made two threes last night. I think that's the critical mass line where I mean, I guess anything's possible. I'm being a little hyperbolic. I don't think the spurs can win three more games if those two. If they're without two of those three guards in all the games.
- [05:59]
Jason Timf
Yeah, I think the same goes for OKC too. We didn't even mention AJ Mitchell seemed to have some sort of weird thing happen with his squad at the end of the game to where I'm watching the replay waiting to see like if maybe he caught an elbow or a knee and it didn't seem like he did. So I don't, we obviously don't know what any of that means but I think for both of these teams being
- [06:16]
Zach Lowe
I saw some tweet before you continue about he told one of the beat reporters I think I'm good. I just got hit in the quad. So that's why I didn't mention him.
- [06:23]
Jason Timf
That's good news.
- [06:24]
Zach Lowe
And, and before you continue, I do, I should have also said I do think like I, I, I don't like yes, I don't think the spurs can win the series without two of those three guards. Even if Jalen Williams is out for the rest of the series. I think Jalen Williams out versus two guards of the spurs out. Oklahoma City wins the series. Other than that I don't even know. But yeah, please continue the injuries just suck, obviously.
- [06:47]
Jason Timf
I totally agree just simply because the main dynamic that I've noticed so far through the first two games is that when the spurs take care of the basketball, they have like a physically overwhelming quality that starts with Wemby, but it extends to the guards. Like one of the main things that stood out to me on film is just how often Steph Cassidy, Castle and Dylan Harper as well just bully through some of these smaller OKC guards to get two feet in the paint. I feel like Chet's rim protection has been a borderline non factor. Same goes for Isaiah Hartenstein when these guards are driving. And that's kind of shown in the in the lineup data. Like when Vassell, Champagne, Harper, Castle and Wemby are on the floor so far in 41 minutes, they're plus 18. And when that group takes care of the basketball and they get in the half court and they run their stuff, they get usually something that is either a high quality catch and shoot three or two feet in the paint type of good look for one of their guards. It's the turnovers where it's gone the other direction. Like, we have a 55 to 27 points off of turnovers advantage for OKC through two games. And so I think that's where to the point about the critical mass. There's a certain amount of these Steph Castle turnovers that are like classic young guy turnovers where that he's been making all season, right? Like a lot of those, like get two feet in the paint and then throw a pass into someone's hands or get a little too cute with the dribble. But I feel like a good third of these Steph Castle turnovers have been a product of just outrageous usage that's been foisted on him as a product of the injuries. And I feel like this is the case for every ball handler in the league. When you go way up in usage, it causes these like mental fatigue turnovers where you're just trying to buy a possession arrest here or there by like that cutter looks like he might be open. If I just throw it, maybe we'll get something and I won't have to drive or I won't have to force something physically. And I think there's been a lot of that kind of stuff with Steph where getting Deer and Fox back would be huge. And Fox doesn't quite have the physical imposition of Harper. Like, look at how many times Harper just dusted Lou Dort either by turning the corner on him or plowing through his chest or just in general forcing his way to the basket. But he got several clean looks at little mid range pull ups that he's missed. And I think Fox, even though he won't have the same physical imposition, he's a little bit more steady as a ball handler and he has that mid range pull up that he can go to as a counter. So it's a different type of player. But I think Fox would be able to fill that role enough to where if Dylan had to miss a game or two, they'd be able to kind of fill those gaps.
- [09:20]
Zach Lowe
And the spurs by the way are so good and obviously they're all the way ready to win the championship now. Like they're a championship caliber team immediately. We, I, we've known that for months but they've proven it already in the playoffs. I think they, they, they could win the series if they had all their guards healthy and Jalen Williams was out. Like that's the way that balances on that end. Like I think the Thunder need all hands on deck to win against the full strength Spurs. But you mentioned Harper and, and Castle and the bully ball. I mean when Harper just went through Lou Dort in the first quarter of the game and laid the ball in, I had to pause for a second, be like, that's Lou Dort. That's not like Shay who's a little skinny, obviously a good defender. That's like a walking cinder block. That Dylan Harper, a 20 year old rookie guard, just like, no, I'll just go right through him and make them backpedal out of bounds and lay the ball up. Castle does that to everybody four times a game. He also had that one. It was a pick. It was a two man game with Wemby where they trailed over the screen with somebody, I don't remember who it was. And he just pinned the guy on his back like freaking Chris Paul. But big slow dribble. Slow dribble. Shedded him and then rose up for. Shedded is not a word. Shed him and rose up for like a 15 foot pick and roll long too. That looked just like a, like a 29 year old in his prime veteran point card. And of course we probably should have led the show with an act of basketball violence so audacious that I screamed in my office when Steph Castle absolutely obliterated Isaiah Hardenstein. Isaiah Hardenstein was critical to the Thunder. Going to talk about all the adjustments they made putting him on Wemby and all of that and just having him beat the hell out of wimy. I mean, that dunk is up there with the nastiest and most violent dunks I've ever seen. I. I mean, off the top of my head, I could not think of one that was, like, definitively more just strictly violent than that. Something about the way Castle cocks the ball back on those dunks, about how high he is. He's, like, above the defender, so he's dunking on their face, on top of their head. And the violence of his follow through, the speed of his follow through, it was a legit, like, act of violence. I remember when Aunt Edwards had won over John Collins, where John Collins was literally injured by an Anthony Edwards dunk. That was pretty violent. I think this was even more violent than that. So violent that a Hardenstein had to take revenge by pulling his hair like. Like the freaking schoolyard, like, elementary school brawl. We had hair pulling later in the game, but, yeah, these guards are absolutely incredible. That dunk, I just wanted to luxuriate in that dunk for a couple more minutes. That was just unbelievable.
- [12:00]
Jason Timf
Yeah, just about every time the spurs run double drag, they get the defense in rotation and they get a pretty decent look. And that was another example of that. They kind of got the defense in rotation. There were several attacks in the same possession, and it kind of resulted in this Runway for Steph to get into his 1, 2. And then he just. I think it's been one of the funniest subplots of these first two games. Whether it's. There's this weird thing with Chet that I'm noticing where, like, he's almost, like, relying on verticality too much around the basket. And it's like, I kind of wish he'd foul a little bit more. Like, be a little bit more handsy and physical around the rim. Because there have been several times where the spurs guards are just playing off of two feet around Chet at the. At the basket and are able to kind of finish around him.
- [12:43]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, he kind of just stands. He just stands up with his hands up, which is, like, good. He's not going to foul, and he's very tall. But even Keldon Johnson had a couple of sequences of offensive rebounds where he just went up, miss, up, miss. And Chad is standing there and he's an obstacle, but he's not preventing Keldon Johnson for getting the ball back over and over again and finally finishing one.
- [13:03]
Jason Timf
Exactly. And so I think that's kind of one of those next phases of development for Chet, which is, like, bring a little bit more physicality to your rim protection, especially for this matchup. Because it's very clear again through two games that, like, there was a take that I think it was, it was either Dylan or Steph. So many of their takes look similar because they're such power guard takes, but one of them, a transition take. Hartenstein's back and he's at the rim and he just jumped in, hit him with his right shoulder and finished with his left hand at the basket relatively easily. There's definitely a certain amount, a certain amount of like they see food when they see Isaiah or Chet at the basket. And that's, that's one of those like, kind of interesting dynamics where, you know, I'm not going to sit here and pretend like the Thunder don't have advantages. They were absolutely capable of being up 20 in this series. But one of the things that's kind of stood out to me is like, no matter what OKC does, scheme wise, there's a certain physical advantage that the spurs guards have to get two feet in the paint, which I think is a relatively reliable thing for them in their shot quality over the course of the series.
- [14:02]
Zach Lowe
Well, you mentioned the turnovers. I mean, the recipe for their success in the regular season against Oklahoma City was one like, ripple effect of having all of these ball handlers is no one has to do too much. We have a lot of skill on the perimeter, not just size and speed and athleticism, but skill and craft. And we can take care of the ball against the defense where most teams don't have as much ball handling as we do, don't have as many skilled, experienced ball handlers. They can't take care of the ball and the spurs can and they didn't yesterday. So I mentioned injuries and there's just not much to say about that. Everyone will get their MRIs today or whatever. We'll learn in the afternoon when I'm on the way to MSG probably. But the other, the other just sort of general thing from this series for me is just the sheer desperation that both teams are showing on a possession by possession basis. And that is like that. That is like manifesting to me in three different ways. Number one is tactically, these coaches are just not wasting any time just throwing entire strategies in the garbage can and just unveiling new entire strategies, like right off the bat stuff that they may not have used the entire season against this opponent or any other opponent. That's what we'll dig into later. It's manifesting in just massive lineup shifts. So the Thunder last night played these Two lineups we saw, and I mentioned after game one, I think they're just going to have to play more shooting on the floor. The way the spurs are swarming Shea and daring guys to shoot. We saw less Dort. We didn't see much of Crusoe and Door together. We saw more McCain. And so these, these two lineups, Mitchell, Shea, Case and Wallace, just fantastic game last night. McCain and Chad, that lineup played three minutes last night in one game. Played three minutes, not much. Played one possession in the regular season. According to Cleaning the Glass and the similar lineup. AJ, Shea, Caruso, McCain, Chet. Six minutes last night, plus five, six minutes. Not much. Doesn't sound like much. It's half a quarter. It's an eighth of a game. Two possessions in the entire regular season. Jared McCain, you know, out of the rotation in the first round. There's this whole is Daryl More going to get fired? Is this trade the reason he's going to get fired? He's out of the rotation. He's like, oh, look at all Jared McCain big deal is out of the rotation, comes back in the rotation in the Lakers series, does pretty well. Daryl Morey gets fired and it's like, oh, but Jared McCain like he had some nice playoff moments. Now it's like, is Jared McCain going to swing the NBA championship? Is that the end game of this portrait? Is Daryl More? He gets fired and Jared McCain not only plays like real minutes in the playoff playoffs, but becomes an incredible swing player. And then the third way the desperation manifests. And this is where you and I probably are just loving. This is just the effort level, the urgency on every possession. Like some of these offensive rebounds, Kayson Wallace and Keldon Johnson jostled for one that Kayson Wallace just, just shoved his way inside position and got one. And it resulted in a. He made a three. Keldon Johnson screaming in for an offensive rebound and a put back to bring the spurs within six at the end of just every. The urgency with which every loose ball is chased, every two on one is contested from behind. It's just a full on des. You could almost hear it. It's like, it's like if the game could make a sound, it would be just a continuous scream of desperate urgency. Every they both these teams understand. I have met an equal. I have met a peer. This team can beat me. This team can send me home. Every single possession, every single loose ball must be approached with like 1000% urgency. And then you have guys that are also doing stuff out of their comfort zone because this equal, this Peer takes all the stuff that's easy for us away and suddenly Lou Dort has to drive and take mid range jumpers. Suddenly Keldon Johnson has to set screens in the pick and roll and make plays out of the short roll in the four on three because that's the best offense they have. That's the surprise attack. And they got, if you remember, a quick three for champagne with like three minutes left in the game that I think would have cut it to two that he maybe, maybe to three. I can't remember that he missed off of that Kelvin Johnson action. That all of that is just, it's just such great theater. And yet you also wonder is the sheer effort level required, the sheer speed and athleticism having some impact on these like leg strain injuries that are happening. But outside of that, to watch these two teams who beat the shit out of everyone all season have to dig this deep against each other is just unbelievable sports theater.
- [18:36]
Jason Timf
They're both so well coached that they both have such a great understanding of the value of each individual possession. And I mean we've seen like game one. San Antonio has a 10 point lead in the fourth quarter and OKC comes all the way back. Last night s OKC had a 10 point lead with like two minutes left. And if it, if Devin Vsell hits that corner three in the left corner, we have ourselves a two point game.
- [18:56]
Zach Lowe
If I'm sitting there watching that being like, is this, is this happening? They go up 10, Vesel hits a three, Shay miss, they go into prevent offense a little bit. The Thunderdo Shay misses along two. Victor gets an immediate baseline spin move post up score. It's down to five. Shay commits the hook offensive foul with like. And then there's like oh my God, there's a minute and a half left in the game. Is, is this happening? Anyway, I'm sorry, I just like was. Was giddy watching this like stretch run.
- [19:23]
Jason Timf
You're right, it's like, it's like bucket, stop bucket. We got ourselves OT again. Like it was crazy watching. And, and I think like the. I would actually argue that the kind of depth advantage for OKC is kind of bared out here early. You mentioned the lineup data. I talked earlier about how the spurs starters are playing awesome, but they've played 41 minutes together. There is not a single OKC lineup that's played 10 minutes yet in this series. Like in, in totality through the first two games. It was one of the crazier stats that I saw when I was digging into the data. So as a result There are four spurs players that have cracked 80 minutes already. The only player in a Thunder Jersey who's cracked 70 minutes is Shea. And so as a result, there is a fatigue advantage that I think is going towards okc. And I thought you could really tell starting in that late third into that fourth, there was a lot of 50, 50 balls that started to go towards OKC. And I thought one of the pivotal sequence. Well, frankly, the pivotal sequence of the game is Harrison Barnes hits that corner three, that cuts it to 79, 77. And then we get the jump ball and it's Steph Castle versus AJ Mitchell, or excuse me, versus versus Jared McCain. And Jared McCain just barely gets like enough of a disruption of the first tap that it forces Steph to tap it a second time in the opposite direction away from Wemby, which leads to the Thunder getting the ball back. I can't remember who it is, but a Thunder player gets a three. I think it's. Yeah, and he misses the first one.
- [20:51]
Zach Lowe
And.
- [20:52]
Jason Timf
And Casey Wallace comes flying in and beats.
- [20:55]
Zach Lowe
It's not Wallace, it's Wallace that gets the offense. That's the one I was mentioning earlier of like these just urgent, like just complete balls to the wall offensive rebound pursuits.
- [21:05]
Jason Timf
Yeah, exactly. And. And, and it ends up being worked back around for the big three. That case and hits off of the right wing and then they go down to the other end. I think Wemby ends up missing a wide open three, which again, he got a couple of really good looks down the stretch, which I think were could very well be fatigue related as well. But then they go down and. And that's when Alex Crusoe kind of snakes through the lane and Hartenstein sets the Gortot screen. And then Crusoe pump fakes and gets that little, that little shot. And like there was a certain amount of Wemby himself who was literally Energizer Bunny in game one. It was unbelievable how he kept finding the reserves to get what he needed to get done. But I thought Wemby really started to show his fatigue on the offensive glass against Hartenstein down the stretch and just like kind of giving up inside position and getting pinned a few too many times. And that, that, that is as we move towards the San Antonio at home portion of the series, obviously Dear and Fox being out and Dylan Harper being out requires you to lean on some unconventional groups. And, and you know, like for instance, the reason why they had to go to that matchup zone is that was a Harrison Barnes Jordan McLaughlin Group. So they didn't really have the perimeter defense personnel to, to handle the, the kinds of switching that they were doing up top in, in, in guarding Shea. So like there's a certain amount of like, yeah, the injuries played a role. But I would argue as this series goes, with the level of exertion that both teams are using and how much Mitch Johnson's relying on his starting group because he knows they have the advantage, I do think it's going to be a kind of a fatigue war of attrition advantage towards okc and it's something to at least keep an eye on as we move forward for sure.
- [22:43]
Zach Lowe
And just if you had to boil that down to one stat. 86 minutes with Wemby on the floor, the spurs are plus 17. 20 minutes with Wemby on the bench, the spurs are minus 19. That's, that's basically not the whole series, but that's a lot of the series. All right, let's dig into what we saw in game two that was different from game one and what that may portend for game three in San Antonio on. I don't even know what is it tomorrow? Tomorrow it's every other day the rest of the way, I guess. Yeah, the days are just the, the days now cease to exist. Like everyone's excited for Memorial Day weekend. I'm like Memorial Day weekend is just Eastern Conference game, Western Conference game, Easter, they're just east games and west games. Those are the days. Oklahoma City put up 124 points per hundred possessions last night. Their best offensive game I think of the season against the spurs. And a very strong offensive game, period. Part of that was they just shot better. Shay made more of the, like you're not going to get a lot of decent looking floaters and mid range jumpers. You better make most of the ones that you do get. And he made them. And in transition they didn't get as many opportunities, but they were much more efficient in transition. But I think, and we talked about how they just played sort of better offensive lineups to combat, combat the spurs defense. But I do think there were some tactical adjustments that they made and that's your bread and butter. So what did you see that helped loosen up the offense for the Thunder other than just play better offensive guys and make more shots?
- [24:10]
Jason Timf
So the obvious one is obviously Hartenstein on Wemby. I think one of the things that it does is it creates just a little bit more of like a foot or two closer mid range opportunity on those kind of pick and roll sequences than you're going to see when Wemby has more ability to kind of stunt upwards and kind of make them second guess themselves as they get closer to the basket. I mean, even that Alex Caruso little foul that we talked about late in the game as he's kind of coming through the lane when Hartenstein sets the core tot screen like Caruso's shooting basically a lefty floater from like four feet from the basket. That's a shot that they weren't getting when Hartenstein was off the floor. Right. Because of how much more Wemby could kind of range around the basket. I think that there's a million trickle down effects of the Hartenstein piece. When you bail on him as fast as Mark did, it fundamentally alters the physical profile of your lineups. Now all of a sudden you're just tiny compared to the spurs team. Whereas when Hartenstein's out there, you have much more of a fighting chance. Second, fighting.
- [25:09]
Zach Lowe
Fighting is a good word because
- [25:12]
Kevin Harlan
he
- [25:13]
Zach Lowe
figured out how much leeway the officials were going to give him and he used every inch of it the rest of the. I mean, like that was as physical as you will see one player play against Wemby.
- [25:24]
Jason Timf
Yeah, it was. And that honestly is going to be one of the most interesting swings of the series as we move towards San Antonio. Because there's a version of that game officiating wise, where Hardenstein fouls out pretty quick or ends up in foul trouble pretty quick. And I wouldn't be surprised if, if something like that happens as we head into game three. But obviously you go from 61 to 40 rebounding advantage to 45 to 41. We talked about the closer mid ranges as a team. They were 6 for 15 from mid range in game one. They were 10 for 15 in game two. It's a pretty sizable difference. The Caruso and Caseton Wallace just making every single catch and shoot three that they get. They're 17 for 29 from three so far in the series. That's just an absolutely crazy number.
- [26:04]
Zach Lowe
Sure. Alex Caruso, this is just what's going to happen in the playoffs with him, I guess just the bigger the game gets. He just. This is what he does.
- [26:11]
Jason Timf
Yeah, I think there's a part of that cumulative wear and tear effect on. On Wemby. The inside Seals that Wemby just torched OKC with in game one are gone now. Like he's not getting. He had that one post up late in the game, but he's not getting anywhere near as many shot attempts close to the basket. I think Hartenstein has a really good ability to, even when Wemby's trying to drive, to kind of use his physical leverage to regain control of Wemby, even when Wemby gets a little bit of an angle on a move. Now Wemby countered that by basically like I' going to throw it up at the rim and then I'll follow it and then I'll go, yeah, we, we'll
- [26:45]
Zach Lowe
talk about that end of the floor. But dig me into, dig me into the Thunder offense a little bit more because. Because Hardenstein playing. Hardenstein playing more means Wemby is guarding a traditional center in a traditional defense more than. He's just playing a one man wimy zone on the back line, which you're still. He could still do with Hardenstein on the floor, but when he. They have a traditional center, they're just generally going to put him on the center. And it just. The game looks more, for lack of a better term, normal for, for the Thunder offense.
- [27:12]
Jason Timf
Yeah. And it allows them to get into like a lot of the, like the Chicago action that they were running for Shea coming out of the corner where he's getting into his traditional kind of like curling around the action with Wemby sitting in a drop coverage, which creates some very similar reads. It creates the similar like spacing sequences with the way that they wheel off the ball. That which is helping them generate like they're. They generated 26 more unguarded catch and shoot jump shots last night after 26 in game one. So they're generating just a boatload of really high quality three threes. There's, I think a couple other things you mentioned the lineup structure a lot more AJ Mitchell and Jared McCain alongside Shea. And those groups are just performing extremely well in large part because you're getting more of these drive and kick sequences where you're getting multiple attacks on the same possession and that is resulting in higher shot quality across the board as well. I just thought on, on between the. The moving Shea to attack out of the corner more frequently and then Isaiah Hartenstein just being able to clear more space around the basket set better screens as well. Like, it just created a lot of, like you said, more traditional attacks for them that match what they were doing for the most part in the regular season, which can affect your rhythm and can affect like how confident the guys are in the offense.
- [28:25]
Zach Lowe
I also, I thought I talked about this after Game one and it sounds counterintuitive. It's like, I wonder if they just need to go at Wemby more And I thought they actually did that. I mean, Chris Finch talked about this a lot in the Minnesota series. Like, we can't just be afraid of him. We have to go at him at the rim because there are trickle down effects of that. There are fouls, there are offensive rebounds when he goes up and challenges a shot and even if he gets it. And A.J. mitchell went at him on a couple of floaters where he was the help defender. And they got a big offensive rebound from Hartenstein late in the game. Jdub drove Adam for a mid range too. Caruso drove Adam for a foul. And they put him in. And they didn't actually, they did not put him in as many like, pick and rolls as I thought. When I watched the game, I looked at the tracking data. It's about a normal amount of he's guarding the screener in the pick and roll. But I thought they just, they weren't as afraid of him. And I think that's the approach that you have to have. I also thought, I wonder, I. I'd have to rewatch it because as you were hinting at before, it's sometimes like confusing to figure out what kind of defense the spurs are in. Is it a straight. Is it just a straight up zone? Is it a. Everyone else plays man to man and Wemby just does whatever he wants. Wait, Cornet's on the floor. What are they doing? I did think they got a little too cute at times in the game playing these hybrid zone, whatever they're doing, particularly with Cornet on the floor. I just. There were times where like Chet was left open in the corner and it didn't seem like they knew that Chet was going to be open in the corner. And they had these desperate closeouts. Check. Got a dunk chat, drew a foul. There were some swing, sink, swing sequences that were opened up because again, it was the Cornet minutes, it's not the Wemby minutes. And they were playing some sort of zone and the middle was just wide open. Like they just threw the ball to Chet in the middle and it was panic. Rotation, rotation. There was the one that I just couldn't figure out what was happening, where Wemby was in the game and he was playing zone and Jalen Williams was in the right corner and they threw the ball to Jalen Williams and Wemby, who was closest to him, instead of closing out over there, waved for Dylan Harper to run all the way across the court to close out on Jalen Williams. Jalen Williams makes a three. Wemby's like screaming at Dylan Harper. And I'm like, I guess that was Dylan Harper's job. I don't really understand why it was Dylan Harper's. I just thought the spurs were getting a little too cute with their zone stuff. And they sprung some leaks that were like really? They just didn't. If they just played normal defense, they wouldn't be springing those kind of leaks.
- [30:45]
Jason Timf
Yeah, I think Sean Swinney would obviously be able to explain it far better than we could attempt to. But I think what they're trying to do is keep the big on the weak side corner no matter what, and essentially wave switch to whoever. Like, if anybody ever cuts through to that strong side, they're trying to wave through. And like that's what's so kind of confusing about the whole thing is you have that play that you just talked about where Wemby gets pissed off because Dylan doesn't go to the corner, whoever it was that didn't run out to the corner. But then you also have that play where. Check out the. And one where Casey Wallace cuts through and goes to the weak side. And for some reason Harrison Barnes just follows him over there. And then Lou Cornett is confused because Lou Cornett, I think Luke Cornett started the possession on Case and Wallace Kayson, Wallace cut through to the weak side and Shett standing in the corner, who was Harrison Barnes's man? Like Harrison Barnes is the guy guarding Chet to start the possession. And then Case and cuts through and for whatever reason Harrison just follows him. And again the ball was on the left side of the court. And so I thought the exact same thing. I thought, like, it's very clear that what they're trying to do is keep their bigs at the rim as much as possible. Like even at the expense of giving up wide open threes. But it just puts this incredibly intense like, like awareness pressure and rotation pressure on the spurs role players off of the center position. I think it's just really difficult and I think I agree with you. I think there's a certain amount of like maybe a little bit more conventionality could help at least cut that 26 open catch and shoot threes might be a few too many to give up to a team. And in okc, you frankly all season long has shot really well on the wide open looks.
- [32:29]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, I guess my just general and this is the very dumbed down takeaway is I think with Wemby, just you do whatever you want. It doesn't even matter. He's, he's. You play him in A one man zone, whatever. I found myself wanting them to just play normal defense when Cornet was on the floor. Floor. Like, I don't think Cornet is this powerful a weapon like that where I'm like, oh, just have him play one man. So I'm just like, can you just play a regular man to man? Like, there was even the one where Chet got. I think it was in the fourth quarter. He kind of trailed the play in transition and just caught the ball in the paint with nobody on him and made like a leaning floater. That was an and one. And it was because they just didn't. They didn't know who was matching up with him. And you just like walked into open space. So that was that side of the ball. Let's take a quick break and then we'll talk about where I think there were even more adjustments by the Thunder on the other side of the ball. This episode is brought to you by ebay. I've been hearing people talking about selling on ebay a lot lately, and honestly, I get it. We all have stuff that no longer fits our lives. And from what I hear, selling on ebay is actually really easy. Just snap a few photos, write a description, set your price. Suddenly the stuff that's just been sitting around is in front of millions of buyers already searching for what's next. Find what you love, sell what you don't on ebay. All right, let's talk about the Thunder defense, because I think they made even more changes on that end than they did in game one. On the one hand, it felt like they worked, in part because Wembanyama did not get nearly as many shots at the rim. In game one, 72% of his attempts were at the rim, according to Cleaning the glass. In game two, 31% of his attempts were at the rim. On the other hand, the spurs put up a better offensive rating than they did in game one by a lot of. A lot of that is just jump shooting. They made their long twos and they made a lot more threes or they shot, you know, much better on threes. But obviously the number one adjustment was we're not. We're not getting too cute and putting our wings on Wembanyama. We're just going to guard him with our centers, and that's going to be Hartenstein and that's going to be Chad. A matchup that we've avoided. We're just going to play regular man to man, big versus big defense, and we're going to drop back on the pick and Roll because. Because that's what we're going to do. And they tried to go under more on screens against Castle and Harper, which I think was smart. They can't always do it. The spurs are very good at preventing you from doing that. But I think they just decided, look, here's the trade off we're making. When we put wings on Wemby, we can switch a lot and try to gum up the San Antonio offense that way, and we lose that ability. But we're trading that for. We just have to keep him away from the rim. And they showed us in game one that when we do have wings on him and we do switch wing to wing, he's just going to roll, and they're just going to throw the ball to him and he's going to get the ball and he's going to get offensive rebounds. He's going to live at the basket. And I think that largely changed the shot diet the way that the Thunder wanted it to. We saw him, like, checks dropping back, Hartenstein's dropping back. The rolls to the rim are just not there in the same way. They're there. He can roll and he has gravity, and he's opening up threes for other people, but he's not getting those easy catches where he just lords over the rim and just catches above everybody else. I thought that adjustment essentially did what was intended to do. To the point that I'm already wondering, the next question is. All right, so if you're. If you're Mitch Johnson and you know that you're seeing a more traditional defense potentially in game three, how do I get Wemby loose at the rim again? So did you see the same thing? And then what is your answer to that question if you're Mitch Johnson?
- [36:01]
Jason Timf
Yeah. Fundamentally, it was a completely different basketball game for the spurs on offense.
- [36:05]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, they just threw everything.
- [36:06]
Jason Timf
It was crazy.
- [36:07]
Zach Lowe
From game one.
- [36:08]
Jason Timf
Yeah. And like. And I thought it was the right call from Dagnal because, like, Caruso was the guy that had the most success against Wemby in Game one. And I thought Wemby looked way more comfortable against Jada. But then down the stretch of the game, we had those two duck ins, and it was like, oh, man, did Wemby figure out Caruso, too? Now we just have to basically have him duck in from the dunker spot. And so I thought it was the right move. I think it also allows Caruso to do what he does best, which is just wreck havoc on the perimeter as a defender. And I thought that he played a Big role in like, the turnover forcing element of this game with their perimeter defense. And that, that to me is like one of the big parts of, of having Hartenstein on Wemby is it just allows you to have your biggest, most physical perimeter defenders deployed on these big physical guards, which I like Crusoe, frankly, should be deployed on one of Castle or Harper because of what they're giving up in size when they put him on Wemby. Because now you have to use one of your smaller guards on one of those guys. I think, you know, one of the most interesting dynamics of the game as it progressed was the way that Mitch Johnson was trying to get Hartenstein off of Wemby through different types of screening actions. And I still think they're getting pretty good looks every time they run double drag. So I'd like to see them keep doing that. They broke out that like Sacramento Kings, deer and Fox, like, let's just set pinch screens on both sides of, of, of Castle as he's dribbling up the floor. And they did that at several points in the game. At one point, even beyond half court on a play, that's.
- [37:39]
Zach Lowe
That's one of the things, I mean, where, like, you can design your whole defense to get under screens against Steph Castle, they're going to have a bunch of different counters that make it hard. One of them is, wait, which screen is he using? Why is there. Why are there two screeners at half court? What's happening? There's 22 on the shot clock and I'm backpedaling and I'm already navigating the screen. Like, it's just hard to do that. It's hard to get under. Like, like I said the other day, we've come a long way from. All right, we're going to duck. Rajon Rondo screens like five times on the same possession at the foul line. Like, it's just. Teams of offenses have gotten way smarter about counter, about preventing you from doing that.
- [38:13]
Jason Timf
No, absolutely. I liked the off ball action they got. They got into this one in the fourth quarter and they got a great look out of it twice. A wide open three for Wemby and then under the basket cut for Steph Castle. But they basically just had, you know, one of the other spurs guards on the right wing with the ball. Have Wemby start with the. Or have Steph Castle start on the left wing. And then they just had Wemby come up and set a back screen for him. And basically taking advantage of the idea that, like, Hartenstein doesn't want to leave Wemby. And the first time they did it, both Caruso and. And Hartenstein stayed with Wemby. And Steph Castle got wide open underneath the basket. They ran it again late in the game, and both Caruso and Hartenstein went with Stephen and left Wemby wide open over there on the left wing. And so I think, like, a certain amount of. Just if Hartenstein is going to literally be, like, up underneath Wemby, like, with two hands on him, start using Wemby as a screener. I know it sounds crazy as a. As a five, but, like, that's literally what Steph Curry's been doing his whole career, taking advantage of the face guarding and the hugging off ball by setting screens and just kind of taking advantage of the different openings that can come that way. I do. I do think one of the most important dynamics is Wemby in pick and roll, especially getting a hit on the screen, because that does force Hartenstein to detach because there was that little right shoulder fade. He hit, like, early third quarter. That kind of reminded me of the Embiid ISOs, where you get a good screen. Hartenstein has to help on the. In the drop that opens up Wemby in the pocket. Now he's separated from Hartenstein and can get into his bag a little bit. And when you get into his bag,
- [39:49]
Zach Lowe
I know that shot you're talking about. It's a straight pick and roll. Hartenstein doesn't want to help, but he does a little bit because Wemby hammers him on the screen. I think in game three, I could. I see also Wemby just like, I'm going to start slipping screens real hard if you're if. And get to the rim. But any. And he catches at the foul line and Harden seems back in front of him. And you're like, okay, well, that's a win for the Thunder. Like, he's not at the rim, and then he makes this, like, turnaround jump shot. You're like, what? I still think it's kind of a win for the Thunder, but if this 75 guy is going to be making these Embiid slash, Dirk, slash, whatever, turnaround 18 footers. Like, okay, all right, Vic.
- [40:24]
Jason Timf
Yeah. And like we mentioned earlier, sometimes he's just driving at him and putting something up on the glass and following it. Like, thank God for AJ Mitchell on the box out on that last one. That was one of the big plays in the game, too, because the spurs were on a little bit of a run at that point. But I still came away from that game feeling like. Like it's. It's very much a get into your stuff, run one of your more sophisticated pick and roll actions and play advantage basketball off of that, you know, and there's. There's reads that they miss and there's turnovers that they have.
- [40:57]
Kevin Harlan
Like there.
- [40:57]
Jason Timf
There were times where they'd get Wemby separated because Hartenstein had to show and he'd slip and he'd have like, Isaiah Joe or some smaller Thunder guard on him, and he'd be standing there with his arms up, like, begging for the basketball, and they would just, like, miss the opportunity. And that's what's so funny with these windows with the Thunder. Like, the windows are there for a split second. Like, there was a. They ran stack early in the game and Julian Champagne was wide open at the top of the key and they missed him on the first read. They threw it to him a second later and they were able to close out and the advantage is gone. And so, so much of it is like with this spurs team. The possessions where they execute and they don't turn the basketball over and they identify the read and they make it, they get a great shot. But it's just so many times, like, and this is another part of having Caruso out on the perimeters. There's more size on the ball, more disruption on the ball, so those reads are tougher to make. But when they pressure the ball enough to force deflections, to force those passes to be a little bit off, like the Devon Vessel hammer action, Steph Castle, there's a little bit of a contest at the rim that forced him to kind of go wide with the pass and he threw it too far to Devin Vessels left, and it funneled him behind the backboard. And then Vasile hits the corner of the backboard on the three. And so, so much of it is like, this is just how good OKC's defense is. And there is that desperation because all their role players are playing manageable minute loads and they can go out there and play as hard as they can for the. The entire stretch. But, like, I think we'll see, we'll continue to see those double drags, those pinch screens, we'll see the back screens from Wemby off the ball. I do think. And let me know what you think about this at, because I was thinking the shot quality skyrockets when Hartenstein's off the floor because it creates a more similar dynamic to what we saw in Game 1. And after he picked up Hartenstein's fourth foul on the lob. They had to go back to to Jay Will. And Wemby just fried Jay Will just over and over again just fried him. One on one and trailing the play with threes. If he can get Hartenstein off the floor, his job just gets so much easier. So even though it might not necessarily be the best shot, I wonder if they need to explore WEMBY ISOs against Hartenstein more to try to just like bring the whistle into the equation, essentially, like force the issue by, like get a little bit of an angle and then really try to force your way through Hartenstein's shoulder. Maybe even get a little grifty if that's what you got to do. Like, and just try to find a way to get Hartenstein off the floor. And foul trouble.
- [43:16]
Zach Lowe
I do think that's one of the counters. We'll see to Biggs on Wemby. Traditional defenses, set him some cross screens, get him in the post on the move, like, get, get. Just play like a traditional big a little bit more in that sense. And maybe that, that has the same, the same effect. Yeah, the chess match is going to be super nursing. You mentioned the J Will, the Wemby sequence in the third quarter. I mean, it's just, it's so stark and so frightening. Even as a neutral observer, when after holding any great player, but Wemby in particular, because it's both ends of the floor in slight check. You realize like three minutes into this sequence, oh, we've entered the point of the game where he's just going to single handedly dominate the game for like eight minutes. And that was the third quarter as the spurs got back into the game where he makes a three, he has the drive. Offensive rebound. It was like it was Wemby saying, okay, you're taking away the rim touches and the paint touches. I'll just go outside in now. I'll hit a three. I'll drive and I'll, I'll. I might miss, but I'm going to get the offensive rebound with one hand and dunk it all in one motion. If you help, I'm going to drive and kick over here to Devin Fissell for a corner three. Like, I'll dominate the game this way and I'll still be dominating the game defensively. And his rim protection, everybody knows, but he, he's just. No one has ever been so good. I like Olajuwon was really good at this, but it's a different level. I call it like the spin pivot block where he's in one place and the ball moves and he spins back and blocks another. Another player in a different place. He just makes these double rotations so fast. And that was the third quarter all that was happening. But the other thing you mentioned hugging him like they're doing the thing. And you see this every once in a while on great, great big men. You see it against Jokic where there was. There are pick and rolls like it's just say Castle Wemby, where Hartenstein does not leave Wembia at all. He just stays hugged on him. And there was one in the first half where Castle is. Is going around the screen and Hartenstein is already signaling behind him, hey, someone else has to come meet Castle at the rim because I'm not leaving this. This 75 guy that's setting the screen, someone else has to be there.
- [45:24]
Jason Timf
And you see there's the foul on Shay, right?
- [45:26]
Zach Lowe
Yeah.
- [45:27]
Jason Timf
Attempted dunk. Yeah.
- [45:28]
Zach Lowe
Jay comes late and Steph tries to dunk on my Nebula and Shay eats a foul. And like, I think if you know that that's coming for the spurs, you can get a little bit more aggressive driving wise. But that's like the ultimate nod of respect to a big man is you set a screen. We're just not even playing regular defense. We're just going to make everyone else do stuff. My guys going to be hugged up on you. It's just the chess match here is awesome. And I just can't wait to see the counters because it also, like we're talking about how the spurs, now that you know this is coming, how do you counter the this that was there in game two? Like, it's not like Mark Dagnaut's going to play the exact same way in game three as he did in game two. Just because that stuff worked in game two. He knows that Mitch Johnson is sitting over there scheming up counters and he's scheming up counters to the counters ahead of time. And like we said, I mean, this series, this is what you. I mean, minus the injuries, which again, if Harper and Fox. Let's just. I. We'll learn today if Harper and Fox are out or limited for the entire series. And Mitch Johnson, I think I saw a quote where he said if this were the regular season, Fox would not be playing. He's trying to play storming up before games. That's a little ominous, right? Because that suggests how good is he going to be if and when he plays. Like, I don't think they can win three more games with those Guys out or both out or both limited for the series. But I mean, we'll see. We'll see what the J Dub thing is. But this is, this is what you want. You want the great teams going up against each other and forcing them to dig deeper into their bags, finding stuff that they did not have to use against anybody else. And we've already seen it through two games. We've already seen so many schematic changes and so much desperation and so much urgency. We just want five more and we want everyone to be healthy. Is that too much to ask after all these injuries and then 65 game limit stuff and whatever? Like just give me five more of these and let everyone play.
- [47:15]
Jason Timf
Yeah, the injuries were the biggest bummer from last night because this series has just been some of the most fun I've had as a basketball fan in years and I would just hate to see it end like this. And I. Speaking of adjustments, by the way, Darren Fox coming back would just be a weird geometry shift to the series because he's a very different type of player than Castle and Harper. He's a speed attack guy who has more of a pull up jump shot to rely on. Like Steph Castle has been going to that kind of scissor dribble step back three and he's take. He's had a couple mid Rangers that have looked really nice that are kind of a glimpse into the future and you could tell how good he's going to be. But Fox brings an entirely different element to it. We've seen so much Fox Wemby pick and roll in the previous two rounds. Like that's going to be an element that returns. Zach, I feel like we have to shout out Shea, Gil just Alexander a little bit more than we have.
- [48:03]
Zach Lowe
Okay.
- [48:03]
Jason Timf
I thought he, I thought he was incredible last night there. This shot diet that he's dealing with with this matchup, you could not construct a defense more well equipped to guard Shay in terms of like we always have three dudes who are 65 to 67 that can slide their feet, that have long arms on the perimeter that can SW on him. We are so athletic in rotation that we can be up in the gaps and make life difficult for him so that every time he makes a drive he's trying to do a low gather or high gather to split the gap. We're fast in rotation and we have the alien at the rim and his shot diet is just absurd. And for him to go, what was it, 12 for 24 last night? 30 points, night assists with one turnover. I thought he had he. His secondary rim protection with his length at the basket is so valuable with this roster because of how small they have to play for chunks of this series and just how physically limited they are in some of their position groups in terms of height. I just think like again, I think the dead giveaway from the first two games of the series is no one's touching Wemby ceiling. Like what he did in that third quarter was so outrageous what he did in game one. Wemby ceiling is the highest in the league by a mile. And you know, will we who we think is better at the end of the series? That remains to be seen. But I just thought, I just thought last night was a. A guy who's one of the best, if not the best player in the league with his season completely on the line, playing an incredible basketball game under incredibly difficult circumstances and he deserves a boatload of credit.
- [49:32]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, 38 really hard minutes and the 1 turnover is as important as any of the other stats in that stat line. That was an MVP level performance, obviously. And yeah, I mean Wemby in game one was just outrageous. In game two, for portions of it was just outrageous. We shall see what happens going forward. I picked Thunder in seven. I don't feel better or worse anything about that pick. What did. What was your pick in the series?
- [49:58]
Jason Timf
I was spurs in six. I felt a little bit better after game one because the big thing was just the guards. The guards just look so physically superior. Is something that I think portends well for them. But I think the thing that's kind of tilted me back towards OKC and feeling more like I did before the series, like just very slightly towards San Antonio. It's just that depth advantage for okc. I really do think that that's something that will favor them over the course of the series.
- [50:21]
Zach Lowe
We shall see. Let's quickly talk Knicks Cavs, the game, Game two is tonight, so I don't want to spend more than just a few minutes on it. But game one was just. I was there and for the second straight Eastern Conference Game one, I was at msg, sitting way up on the. I think it's the Hyundai Bridge now, not the Chase Bridge anymore. Just sitting there thinking, am I hallucinating? Is this really happening? Is this happening again? A gigantic comeback. Except this time it's the inverse with the Knicks making the comeback and the Knicks getting the bounce on the rim that was not as great as the Halliburton bounce, but was still quite a bounce. And now we get game Two are the Cavs just totally demoralized and broken after one of the worst collapses I've ever seen in the NBA. And yes, like any collapse that happens over a short span of time, 6 to 7 minutes, it's both things. It's the Knicks and Jalen Brunson playing outrageously well, and it's the Cavs pooping all over themselves on national tv. And Kenny Atkinson who said after the game at his press conference, oh, no, we adjusted. We put two on the ball against Brunson hunting James Harden. And it's like, was I watching the same game as you as you were coaching? Because I think yes, you did adjust and you just, you did put two on the ball way too late. And I understand the Knicks playing five shooters, which is something I talked about before the series, makes putting two on the ball a little riskier and opens up a little bit more like open threes and all that. But you did it way too late and then your team did it poorly like you did. You executed the rotations behind it poorly. Just an absolutely embarrassing collapse for the Cavs. The cool thing about being there, and Legler talked about this on the broadcast, I rewatched it a little bit yesterday, is the crowd was ready for it. Like the crowd when it got to 15, the crowd was ready for a comeback to happen. It's because they're great fans. It's because this team has been an elite fourth quarter team and Brunson has been an elite fourth quarter player for a long time now. And I also think it's because, like they were on the other end of it last year. They know what can happen in a short span of time. And it was as soon as it got to 15, I was riveted the whole time because I'm like, this could, this could happen again. Give me like two things that you are watching for tonight in game two.
- [52:44]
Jason Timf
So obviously the big one on the defensive end of the floor is just how they choose to protect Harden. And they tried a variety of different things. I like the two. Some of their two on the ball sequences too are more like a drop coverage where they had Harden just kind of like hang back, you know, five, 10ft behind the ball and then OGN and OBI would pop and they tried like rotating to OG, but then they just changed their spacing so that that closeout was too far from the left corner and they were able to get back, get the defense in rotation that way. I think regardless of what they choose, whether it's switching and letting Harden defend or it's the drop that they, they ran or it's double teaming. They just have to execute it better because, like, they had stops in every one of those looks in, in a variety of different ways. It was just when they executed it well, when they rotated well, when Harden sat in a defensive stance instead of just swatting at the basketball, when he like sat in a defensive stance and slid his feet, he was able to play Brunson into a tougher shot diet. Like so much of it is just execute it well, right. Like I, I, I. But I think they, they need to come up with something that they're going to do and be a little bit more keyed in on the rotations. I thought there were several examples where the basic, biggest example that I saw was the one where Mobley rotated to the left wing and Allen rotated to the left corner. But it looked like Mobley didn't trust that Allen was going to be there. So when Mobley closed out, he kind of stayed in the passing lane instead of getting in front of the ball. And it allowed, I think it was OG to drive off of the wing and get into the lane. So there's a certain amount of like, they need to be on a string, know what they're doing and be prepared for that on the other end of the floor. I just thought it was about attacking Cat instead of attacking Brunson. And some of this is on Sam Merrill because he had a couple of bad plays out of hedges where he caught the ball in the wing and started to drive, but, like, didn't really commit to the drive and it kind of ended up in a tough shot and another one where he caught and held, which is like the number one thing you can't do against a four on three situation. And it caused the advantage to go away. When they attack Kat in the ball screens, it puts the onus on Mobley as a jump shooter in the pick and pop and specifically against a loaded up defense because there's been no other movement. Whereas if Mobley catches on the perimeter after you attacked Brunson and the defense is in rotation a little bit, then Mobley can maybe drive a closeout and there's bigger gaps for him to attack and maybe a little bit more rhythm in the jump shot when he does get it. And so I think in general, like just being more diligent about attacking Brunson instead of attacking Cat because Cat is actually, he's actually capable of making some plays in the drop. Like he blocked Donovan Mitchell on a floater on one of Those drop coverage sequences. And so I think. I think they attacked the wrong guy on one end. Even when they got Brunson, there were some ugly possessions. Like Harden settled for a pretty bad step back. Three on one of them. There was so much conversation about Donovan Mitchell not wanting the basketball. Can we give Landry Shamit some credit? I thought he did an incredible, incredible job on Donovan Mitchell. One on one, just sliding his feet and keeping him in front and making it so that, frankly, James was a better option for some of those sequences down the stretch.
- [55:44]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, Shamit was great. He changed the whole game. You mentioned going at Brunson, and they had a lot of success running hard and Sher pick and rolls to hunt Brunson. If I'm the Knicks, I'm thinking of, do I. Do I give that switch a little bit more? Not every time because Brunson will get in foul trouble, but, like, I don't. James Harden can't get by people anymore. And so, yeah, he might be able to shoot over Harden, but I'm over Brunson. But, like, I'm okay with that. And if you're setting the screens at half court like the Cavs were, a lot of times, like, I'm just. Why am I, like, pressing out there? Just, I'm just going to sit back and I'm. I'm going to make you run it two or three more times. A couple of, like, I'm glad you brought up Donovan Mitchell on the ball. A couple of, like, conventional. A couple of, like, mass takes that I think were either not right or borderline not right. Number one. I saw a lot of, like. Well, Harden's defense on Brunson was. Was pretty good. Brunson just made a lot of tough shots. I would say. I would say largely no to that. I think there were a couple of times when that was true. And you mentioned, like, when Harden actually tries and slides his feet, he's all right. I think there were several times where Brunson just straight up roasted him off the dribble and got the Cavs in rotation. And then I think shots that look hard to the naked eye are not hard shots for Jalen Brunson if he's comfortable against the guy guarding him. If he knows, like, one jab step is going to open up just the amount of space I need for this three or this two. And there was a mid ranger and a three that were like this for him. They're just not hard shots. Yeah, they're jumpers. They're not going to go in every Time I thought he looked very comfortable against James Harden and that James Harden's defense was not good. Donovan Mitchell ran the ninth most pick and rolls he has run in a game, regular season or playoffs. This season in game one and I watched the fourth quarter and overtime two more times carefully. He had the ball a lot in both of those. Both of those periods of time he was like. There was this idea that he was just standing over as a bystander and Harden was doing everything and it just wasn't true. He missed a shot at the rim. He missed two shots at the rim. One Jared Allen put back. He ran a lot of Mitchell Sam Merrill pick and rolls, which you mentioned the Knicks defense on those plays was the reason I think that Sam Merrill hesitated when he caught the ball. And the Cavs bad defense on the exact equivalent play on the other end of the floor is why Landry Shammack got a wide open three to tie the game. Their rotations just weren't as good and Warren is early and Warren is on point as the Knicks. But Donovan Mitchell had the ball quite a bit down the stretch and just did not do very much with it other than kick it back to Evan Mobley for threes that one one of which he made. But the Knicks are going to be happy with just one thing that I'll be watching is two things I'll be watching. Number one, you mentioned cat in the pick and roll. I was a little surprised how how aggressively the Knicks put two on the ball and blitz. I couldn't believe it in game one. And when the Cavs go small and put more shooting on the floor, I think that's a little dangerous. But the Knicks rotations out of it were really, really good. So I'm interested to see how that battle emerges. And real quickly on the other end, I was not that surprised but interested in that the Cavs seemed, and we saw glimpses of this in the regular season, seemed more willing than you might expect to switch Jared Allen onto Jalen Brunson even with Mitchell Robinson on the floor. And that switch leaving Mitchell Robinson a giant advantage on the offensive glass. And Jared Allen has actually done pretty well against Brunson on switches and it's been limited. I wonder if we'll see it a little bit more or. And. Or if the Knicks will be ready for him. So those are. Those are two of the things I'll be watching. I pick Nixon 6. I feel good about Nixon 6. And these are always games where you just wonder how is the team that had that collapse gonna respond Is it gonna break them or are they gonna come out fired up? I. I expect a good effort from the Cavs tonight, but, boy, was that a wild. I mean, just wild. Just like. And when it went to overtime, it's like, well, obviously you know, the Knicks are gonna win. Like, there was no. There was no doubt about that, but. And you'll be going live after. After tonight.
- [59:53]
Jason Timf
Yeah, going live after the game tonight. The only, the only thing I would add is I thought that. I did think the Cavs switch did. Was connected a little bit to the Josh Hart problem and how much they like, if we have Evan Mobley roaming behind, we're effectively guarding the switch two on one, because we can allow that on ball defender to kind of overplay the jumper a little bit. So I'll be really curious to see how quick Mike Brown, you know, kind of pulls the plug on Hart and goes to sham it. And I wonder if it ends up being the kind of thing where Hart ends up playing more with the bench groups and Shamet ends up playing more with their core lineups to try to confront that issue because I think it's just so much harder to guard Brunson on the switch when. When you have another person roaming behind and just kind of congesting things. I think, I think a big part of it too was the Knicks legitimately looked rusty in the first half. Like, they looked like they were out of rhythm. They did get a lot of good looks. There were some. They had like four or five of some of the worst bricked threes I've seen all postseason in that first half too. So, like a certain amount of what, what success Cleveland had early, I felt was associated with rhythm too. But tonight should be fun. I'll be really impressed to see Cleveland's like, resolve because that, that was about as brutal a loss as I can remember a team having in the last few years.
- [61:10]
Zach Lowe
Oh, it was atrocious on heart. I wonder if this is going to be a Hartenstein situation where the dialogue is, well, has he been played off the floor? Are we going to see less of him? And actually the opposite happens in the GAMP because this happens now and then with Josh Hart. People are like, well, they've just got to put more shooting on the floor. Josh Hart can't play. Josh Harden is clogging up the paint. And then the next game, Josh Hart reminds you why Mike Brown continues to start him and he does like 12 points and 13 rebounds, 7 assists, 3 steals, and does a bunch of Josh Hart stuff. He tends to respond like that and I think one of the simple things the Knicks could do is he just spent too much time chilling out in the dunker spot on some of their on a lot of their offensive possessions. He's just not useful there. But we'll see game twos tonight. Jason Timf will have you right after the game. You'll go live on Hoops Tonight YouTube channel. The volume must listen, must watch, must whatever you do to digest your content. Jason, it's a pleasure to have you on and we got to do it again soon.
- [62:07]
Jason Timf
This was a blast. Zach. Thanks for having me. I'm looking forward this episode is brought
- [62:10]
Zach Lowe
to you by Amazon Prime. Ever get hit with a plan out of nowhere and need something asap? Maybe it's an impromptu basketball game? A last minute trip with the crew? Spontaneous date. That's when Prime's Same Day delivery comes in. Get whatever you need delivered to you fast so you can say yes to the moment. Same Day delivery. It's on Prime. Visit Amazon.comprime to find millions of items delivered fast available in select areas. Terms Apply this episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. Spring is here, so celebrate it with fresh, juicy seasonal produce and some very tasty limited time flavors. New Whole Foods Market Peach Apricot Rose Italian Soda Perfect for a picnic or brunch, as is their trending Mango Yuzu Chantilly Cake. But if you're on the go, new 365 Strawberry Pretzels make a great sweet snack. That sounds delicious. Get savings with yellow sale signs storewide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market.
- [63:14]
Jason Timf
Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? Zepbound Tirzepatide may be able to help. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with obesity or some adults with overweight who also have weight related medical problems to lose excess body weight and keep the weight off. Zepbound is Approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5 or 15mg injection. Zepbound contains Tirzepatide and should not be used with other or Zepatide containing products or any GLP1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zepound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pens or reuse needles.
- [63:56]
Zach Lowe
Don't take if allergic to it or
- [63:57]
Jason Timf
if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia Syndrome Type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop Zepbound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a stage serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. If you're nursing, pregnant, plan to be or taking birth control pills. Taking Zepbound with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar.
- [64:29]
Zach Lowe
Side effects include nausea, diarrhea and vomiting,
- [64:31]
Jason Timf
which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems. Talk to your doctor, call 1-800-545-5979 or visit zepbound Lilly.com the next time.
- [64:46]
Zach Lowe
What a treat this is fresh off Year one of Amazon Prime Videos NBA Content I was a small part of it. Kevin Harlan was a large part of it. And I just thought now that the NBA on Prime is over, next year, prime gets the conference finals, I think. But fun time to reflect with one of the voices of the NBA and the voices of sports about that change and just life in general. Kevin Harlan, what a delight. How are you?
- [65:12]
Kevin Harlan
I'm doing great. It's intimidating to be on with you, Zach, because I've listened and watched your things over the years and you know how I feel about you and what you've meant to pro basketball and your coverage of it. It's interesting the world we're in now because we've had so many young, innovative, thoughtful people come up and cover this sport from the time my first year was 1982 to where we are now is just incredible. And people like you, Wendy, like Tim, there's so many of them that have been at the forefront of really helping the game evolve. People understand it and explanations in back of it, which I think is even more important. You can say things, but you are one person that explains what goes on. So there are a couple people that I must listen to, need to listen to, and you're one of those people I need to listen to. You keep me up to date and I appreciate that.
- [66:11]
Zach Lowe
So I like to hear. I appreciate it. We're just gonna move right on. I don't like accepting compliments, so I'm gonna move right on Amazon. I went back and I listened to a lot of your old classic calls that everybody loves and I wanted to and also shots that I had kind of forgotten. You were on this call and that call and you hear the partners that you've had over the years and it must feel like not a revolving door, but you just, you just gotta adapt fast and like some guys you've probably worked with in two different locations. But this year it was a lot of Dwyane Wade and Candace Parker and, and on and on. Like, is it hard to switch up constantly like that? And, and who, who did you work with? Who was the, who were the first timers with you this year? Like, I gotta get chemistry with these guys right off the bat.
- [66:55]
Kevin Harlan
John Wall was a first timer. That's right. We did a three man booth, three person booth with him and a couple others along the way. But it kind of fluctuated. We were the first of all. I'm more part time at Amazon than I was at TNT. At TNT. I had been there 30 years and had the same partner, Reggie Miller for a long stretch, began with Hubie Brown and Dick Versace, oh my God, back in the day. And then that evolved into Steve Kerr and Doc Rivers and Doug Collins, who to me has been. And I've loved all of them. I've loved them all so much. I just had this wonderful stretch with Reg and I enjoy him on so many levels. But Doug Collins really and Hubie really taught me the game, what to look for, how to make statistics work within a broadcast. That it made sense to the viewer and why it made sense to them was more interesting to me than what it meant to the viewer. And after they would explain it and continuing to hammer it home, it became a part of the way that I look at the game now. And I've been formed by their thoughts and their methods. So it's been a great ride and I hope it continues. I just finished my 39th year in the NBA, but I've worked with some incredible people and that included this year. So I've been very, very fortunate in that regard. I've loved them all.
- [68:31]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, the Reggie partnership was a long one and he's got these insane games now. Thunder Spurs. And I almost hear your voice with his because I was going back and listening to some of the calls and so many of them, our Reggie calls, I don't even know where to start. I have so many fun questions for you, but did you really make up the nickname Big Ticket? How about that? We'll start there.
- [68:55]
Kevin Harlan
I did again, as all these things kind of happen just organically within a game. A producer one time told me, he said the best content from a broadcaster will always come from something that is not written down pre planned on your boards, but something that Comes out as the game is going on in your feel and your interpretation of it. And I've always kind of lived by those words. That was a Fox producer who told me that back in the early 90s. And I've always kind of adhered the way I approach a game to losing myself and being so focused and so immersed in the substitutions, in the schemes, in the flow and momentum, that it has served me well and served more importantly as a compass as I go along these games. So the big ticket, I think he had just signed the contract and the gigantic $126 million deal. But you could just sense that early on, as McHale and Flip Saunders would convey to me, how important this kid was to the Timberwolves when they made the stretch. At the time they felt drafting him as they did as a teenager and kind of began that whole process. We knew we had Willoughby back In the, what, 70s, 80s. Then there was this long stretch where no one was drafted out of high school. And then came Garnett and then came Kobe and the succession of great players. So everything was kind of hinged on what they did, how they developed and how they guided kg. And just for whatever reason along the way, this is the big ticket. This is the guy the whole organization is hanging their hat on. And that's where that came from.
- [70:48]
Zach Lowe
And now people just call him Ticket. His friends just call him Ticket. It's like his name now.
- [70:53]
Kevin Harlan
Yeah, I know you don't plan that stuff. If it happens, great. If it doesn't, it's a. It's a line in a game and you move on to the next play.
- [71:02]
Zach Lowe
So that's just you talking about organic. Organic stuff that just comes out. Your brain just fires and things come out. Let's talk about some of your most famous lines. The most famous one is LeBron James with no regard for human life on a dunk against the Celtics. Had you ever said that before? Where did that come from? I mean, it's just such a perfect line. And it just came out.
- [71:28]
Kevin Harlan
Well, you're nice to say that it came from a James Bond movie. And then it extended to our son's Nerf football basketball games with me in his room when he was like 4 and 5 years old, and he would dunk on me. You know, he'd drive. Be like a running back in football, but the Nerf ball would be up here, and he would just drive right into me and put the ball up. And I said, have you no regard for human life? You know, and just joking around in his Room. But it came from a James Bond movie, Dr. No, when Bond is sitting at the table of a villain and as all good villains do, they tell you how they're going to rule the world and the process they're going to take to doing it. And it was in the underwater lair of Dr. No and he's explaining to Sean Connery, James Bond, what he's going to do. And Bond responds by saying. Connery responds by saying, clearly you have no regard for human life because you're going to kill all these people. So that it came from there. It extended to my. Our little guy's bedroom and Nerf basketball games and then. And then went on into the game. And I may have said it once with Kobe on a dunk, maybe with KG. But the, but the LeBron one came over a reigning defensive player of the year in Garnett around a pretty defensive minded Boston team, a defending champ in a playoff game that then swayed the. The outcome of that series at a big moment in that game in Cleveland. And Doug Collins was with me. And when LeBron went up, Doug and I always kind of played off of his physical reaction to a play. Like if he jumped up or got excited or I could hear it in his voice, then that triggered me to get even more jazzed about what just happened. And Doug took his arm and thrust it against my chest and pushed both of us back like he could not believe what he just saw. And that, that line just kind of came out literally as I was tilting backwards and falling into the lap of people in back of us in Cleveland. So it's funny where these things come up, but it was used there. It stuck. I've not used it since. Actually that was the last time I ever, I think I ever used that line. I may have used it a couple times before that, but I retired it in 07, I guess it was, or 09 with the dunk by LeBron.
- [73:41]
Zach Lowe
Honestly, if you had been on Thunder spurs last night and you had broken it out 19 years later for Steph Castle's dunk on.
- [73:49]
Kevin Harlan
Was that an incredible dunk? Holy cow.
- [73:51]
Zach Lowe
I think that was worthy of a. No regard for human life.
- [73:54]
Kevin Harlan
It had the feel of. And I was watching it with the sound down because I was with our family, we're doing something else and saw it and I said, oh my God. It was kind of like the reaction to WIMBY with the logo 3 the other night in game one. Like you just, you cannot believe some of the things you see in this game. And these kids are just Continuing to evolve and do these acrobatic, incredibly skillful things that just. I would like to think in all the broadcaster, my brothers in the business, that they would have that same kind of feel for the moment. And they have.
- [74:33]
Zach Lowe
They have another one that I love. And this is just. There's a YouTube clip that's just. It's. I think the title of the clip is Kevin Harlan Classic calls as they become more and more insane or something like that. And one of them is. I had forgotten about this one. Steph Curry hits just some crazy cornered three. And you go geometrically. That should not have happened. And I'm thinking it's so it's somehow you use the word geometrically, which is geometrically, like four or five syllables. Whatever it is. It's a long word, but it's also. You do it succinctly and it's just like. I don't know if anyone has ever used the word geometric in a. In an ecstatic play by play golf before or since, but it's the exact right word. You get in and out of it fast and it's. And it's perfect. Is that just another. Like it just popped into your head?
- [75:23]
Kevin Harlan
Yeah, that. Yes, it is. That was in a playoff game, I think, in Houston, where he hit that shot bounds and the fender right there in his grill. And he was. And he hit this shot, which we've all seen these Curry shots, right? We've all seen LeBron dunks, we've all seen Jordan and Kobe and Dr. J and Magic. And like, we've seen all these people over the years do these things. I don't know why that word at that moment came out. Frankly, I appreciate you liking it. I really do. But. No, I don't know. But in fact, a lot of things I'll say during a game, I quickly forget because you're onto the next play. And again, you're so focused on what's happened, you don't even realize this stuff. And then it comes out afterwards. You'll be driving back to the hotel with our crew, and they're younger than me and they're on social media and they're looking at, oh, people like this. Or they'll all of a sudden just kind of hit the plaything and play the clip. And I go, I said, I don't know. I don't know where that was.
- [76:28]
Zach Lowe
Do you have like a landmark example of that? Like, boy, I didn't even realize I said that. And it became like a thing with
- [76:34]
Kevin Harlan
Reggie a lot that happened because he Would he would, he would look at it. Going back to the hotel, we get stuck in traffic like everybody does in NFL games. There have been a couple of drunks that have gone on the field and I've done the play by play of that and that's kind of happened. I truly did not even give it a second thought when it happened and moved on with the game. And then this stuff comes up. My wife, when I come off the road and I get home, the first thing she says is not, hey, it's great to see you. Hey, welcome home. Did you say anything? That you're going to lose your job? I said, I don't know. Sometimes I say stuff I don't even know I'm saying. But I am guided by that principle of not writing things down. Pre planned stuff. Clearly I know what the game means, a game seven, a championship game, a Super Bowl. I mean I realize that and in my mind I'm prepared to try to put into some context of what the win means, what it signifies. I mean I've got that scored, but not the every play or spectacular play type of saying or quick twist of a word or something like that. I don't go down that road.
- [77:51]
Zach Lowe
For people who don't know the football clip, this became so famous that I knew it even as a non football fan, a drunk. I think Jeff Fisher is coaching because the camera's on Jeff Fisher the whole time. I don't know Titans, I don't know which team he's coaching. Rams, one of them and a drunk runs on the field and they don't show these people anymore because they don't want to give them publicity. But he's on the field for quite some time and you just, there's no, there's no dead time where you figure out what to do and then you do it. You just immediately go into calling it like it's the game. He's on the 50, he's on the 40, he's bare chested, he has no shirt on, he's at the 30 and it's just so deadpan funny and it just keeps going and here comes security. Oh, there, you know, they've got him now. And it's, it just. And, and I remember I read somewhere where you thought I did, I said this and like I didn't think, are they gonna hate it? Are they not gonna hate it? Am I gonna get in trouble for it? And another thing like that was, this cracked me up, there was a. I don't know if you remember this, but it's it's similar in that I wonder if you thought afterwards, like, oh, no, did I annoy a sponsor or something? There's a CarMax ad that comes on during a game and they mix the copy up of a CarMax ad and it's an ad for somebody's chicken tenders. And you start reading the ad and it's for CarMax and then it goes into chicken tenders and you just. There's this prolonged beer like, wait a minute here. Am I getting chicken tenders with the car? Are they in the car? Is the car gonna smell of chicken tenders? And it just, you just go with it. And it. Sometimes you just gotta go with I. But I, I wondered watching that if you thought, oh, carmax is gonna be pissed at me or the tenders. It is, it's going to be pissed me. But it's. What else are you supposed to do? They screw up the copy.
- [79:33]
Kevin Harlan
Yeah, they did. And no, I think about that afterwards a lot. I don't necessarily think about it during, when I'm reading it. You know, it's funny. I was at Turner for 30 years, 30 years at TNT and had many reads, promos, commercials to do like that. And if one was kind of weirdly written, fun, you know, poking fun at themselves or whatever the copy was, we'd react to it, you know, just as having fun as probably anybody sitting at their couch, on their couch at home might have. And yeah, that was one where the copy got mixed up. So I think about no one had ever said anything to me, isn't that weird? Like in 30 years? And I probably did three or four of those a season where the copy was weird or it didn't mix or they had the wrong graphic up and, and we were reading about a zoo and they showed a movie, whatever, like, whatever it would have been. And I've always kind of thought if they had a problem with it, they probably would have said something. I don't think Marv did it. I don't think Vern Lundquist did it or Stockton did it. So it wasn't like I was trying to fall into place. I guess I was young and dumb and just began doing it and never really gave it a second thought. If the copy was weird or the thing was didn't make any sense or I read it wrong, I'd, you know, have fun with it. And that's, that's kind of what happened. People were great and, and I've kind of done the same thing at Amazon and they, and they've never said anything. Maybe they are saying stuff and they just haven't gotten it to me yet.
- [81:06]
Zach Lowe
I don't think so. And one of the interesting things, I was going back and reading a bunch of interviews you had done, and you talked about how particularly early in your career when you were doing Timberwolves games is the, is the play by play voice of the Timberwolves. You got some flack or criticism, I guess, for, well, is he too flamboyant? Is he too. Is he yelling and screaming too much? Is it too loud all the time? And your response to that was number one. And I thought about Eric Collins with the Hornets when you said this part of it, which is, hey, we were a young nothing team, expansion team, just trying to kind of get on the map. So it seemed like you were saying, like, I'm going to err on the side of just being kind of big and boisterous because we have to, we have to get publicity, we have to get on the map. But also, like, you just. And this reminded me, I've had Eric Collins on the podcast and we've talked about this, said you just have to be you. You can't not be you. And if that's. And if that's who you are and how you call the games, authenticity is going to win out over everything else in the end. And you just have sort of have to ignore whatever small minority of people think that and just. And just be you.
- [82:08]
Jason Timf
Like I.
- [82:08]
Zach Lowe
And it's funny, like, I never thought of you as over emotional or over exuberant. I always thought of you as like, like properly exuberant. You're courtside watching crazy NBA playoff games. That's sort of what I want out of an announcer. And Eric Collins, he has to dial it down a little bit when he goes from the Hornets broadcast to prime broadcasts. And that's appropriate, but I want him to be him, too. And I just, it was just. I wonder if you ever even cared about people saying that about your broadcasts.
- [82:39]
Kevin Harlan
Well, you know, as a local broadcaster, there's a completely different feeling and that becomes the difference is when you're. One of our grandkids just walked in.
- [82:50]
Zach Lowe
That's what they do.
- [82:51]
Kevin Harlan
Yeah, I know it. Yeah, they don't care what you're doing. So as a local broadcaster, it's a different feel. And at the time it was an expansion team and you're trying to sell the sport. And so I would get as excited for Jordan and for all the different great players that the Timberwolves in those very lean years would face as I did for the Wolves. And then, you know, you start getting JR Rider and you start getting some players that had a little bit of traction. KG clearly and others googly ada, you know, there were some fun players along the way and they were still kind of losing, but you could sense that okay event. You know, Christian Leitner was on the team for a while. So you had all these, all these, you know, players. But it was always the opposing team that was really, really doing, you know, Barkley with Philadelphia, then with Houston and Phoenix. And so we had fun with that and just tried to sell the greatness of the game. You know, it's a constant thing that swirls in my mind about how much do you push the meter? And I've always thought of that. And I guess I just feel like, I think the days in our business of trying to be the Edward R. Murrow of a game that probably doesn't resonate anymore. People need to find some electricity, I think, and warranted, not just manufactured, but when it really matters. And I guess I'm such a fan. I love the game. I love college and pro and certainly love pro football. But the NBA is full of such circus, like unbelievable. Did you just see what happened? Type of moments that I don't know how if you're a fan of the game, you can have some just real emotion like pour out of you. And again, I've been kind of guided by that principle. I mean if I see a pass to like maybe the average fan that doesn't realize how hard it was with, with what was surrounding the ball handler and where he got that ball at the split second, it had to be there for that play to develop and happen. Like I just find that like art. I just, I just love, I love coaches when they make a move that you can see. And our analysts will explain. I love a great defensive play. Like I love these things that happen in the game. And I think sometimes you've got to make them aware. You know, people say how could you get so excited in the first quarter for a game that goes four quarters and may have another two hours left? And my answer is an incredible play needs to be appreciated at any time. Clearly it has more effect late in the game because it has more of an impact on the outcome of the game. But a great dunk or a great. I'm not talking just a two handed flush inside by Wemby or whoever, but I'm talking about a well timed orchestrated guy flying. Here's the passenger. Delivered perfectly executed like these things like just always continue to Take my breath away. And I'm not going to apologize to anyone for getting too excited in the first or second quarter of a game of a play that has that kind of momentous feel. I guess I'm going by my heart and what my years watching the game have taught me, and I'm kind of relying on that.
- [86:15]
Zach Lowe
Well, and also, at the end of games, you have to be cognizant of, yeah, this is fun, but these things now have massive stakes to them, and you have to encapsulate the stakes appropriately. And sometimes being funny is not the. Or being boisterous is not the appropriate way to do that to. To wit, one of my favorite calls of your entire career, and, boy, have you called some iconic crazy shots is the Kawhi shot in 2019 Raptors Sixers. And I rewatched it. And he goes up to shoot, and you say, is this the dagger? And then silence. Silence as the ball's in the air. Silence as the ball is at the rim. 1 time, 2 time, 3 time, 4 time. Shot goes in, and you and Reggie together just kind of scream, oh. And then more silence, more silence. Three, four seconds of silence. Let the atmosphere set in, and then something like, game series, Toronto. But that silence as the ball is hanging up in the air, not just on the rim, but the whole time. Again, you can't calculate this, you can't plan for it. But I wonder if you remember in that moment, feeling the need to say something, the want to say something, how long is this going to persist at the rim? But it's. The silence is perfect, and the reaction, and it's not a word, it's just the noise is exactly what I want to hear. As. As is exactly what I'm doing watching the game.
- [87:45]
Kevin Harlan
Well, you are too kind. And I, coming from you, I appreciate that. It was. I was actually working with Greg Anthony.
- [87:51]
Zach Lowe
That's right. It was Greg Anthony. That's right.
- [87:53]
Kevin Harlan
Greg was there. And just before that, you know, Butler had gone in for Philadelphia, and they had a miraculous play and got it to where it was when the inbound came in from the Raptors. And it is probably, I do think, in those moments late in the game, that's where the silence really pays off. And we had a talented director that night. And the cutting of the shots, I think they took a shot outside of the building where there was those massive playoff fan areas, and they were going ballistic. Sometimes in the arena, you can't get the feel because everyone is in a stationary. You know, this is my seat. This is your like, but outside where it's like a big dance party, the animated fan and the celebration of that play really comes out. So the person that cut, that got the inside, got the guy on the floor in the corner, got the outside reaction. And then the noise was just such. It was like a symphony. And if a picture says a thousand words sometimes, you know, with that kind of outcome that clinched a series, led them on, you don't have to say anything. And that was kind of my feeling at that moment. There, There are, there are moments when that works. There are other moments when it doesn't. You don't do it in the first quarter, probably don't do it in the first half. But if there's a game changing sway that that really signifies. Oh my. This is momentous. It does fit. A lot of broadcasters do it. I did it.
- [89:22]
Jason Timf
There's.
- [89:23]
Kevin Harlan
It worked out game seven. I think it was the only. If I'm not mistaken. And Zach, you know this more than me. I don't know. It may have been the only game winning buzzer beating game seven series deciding shot in playoff history. I'd have to go back and look. Seems to me like I read that at the time that that had never happened in a game seven. And maybe it's. But. But it was a game seven last second buzzer beating game. Like that's. It had all those components. So when you've got something like that, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out what that shot meant, how precarious it was when it was taken. And then the weird ending result with the bounces and finally dropping through and the reaction because the crowd in that building, I think at that time was called the Air Canada center may still be. It went silent like they were just. With every bounce you could feel it like inside as you watched it. And the silence was like deafening. And then bang, it happened and it was like, oh my gosh, what a play against Embiid, against Butler. Simmons was on that team for Philly. So it was fun. You're nice to mention it because that was a great. I felt privileged to be there for that moment in that shot.
- [90:42]
Zach Lowe
If that's not the most iconic bounce on the rim in the modern television era, it's another one that you called, which is Tyrese Halliburton last year in Game 1 against the Knicks, a game I was at as well. And Reggie, of course is next to you. The ultimate Pacer, the ultimate Knicks villain is next to you for that shot. And that hung up in the air Even longer. And you could tell from my angle, way up in the rafters from tv, that it's got a chance when it's falling that it might go in. And so you have a similar. Just silence. You're not going to narrate it. It's going to go in or it's not going to go in. And similarly, it's just a scream with you. And Reggie's laughing. Reggie just starts cackling, which is. Which again, is perfect. But you also had the moment and you realized it pretty fast of, wait a second, is the game over? Is the game not over? Is it a two or is it a three? And so I. You. I don't know if you were, like, trying to figure it out, because you don't. You don't announce that the game is over. You never. You never react as if the game is over. You react with exuber, but you. But that's a moment of confusion that reminds me a little bit of. And Mike Breen has already gone on Le Bard and talked about this. His fame now already famous unbang from Game one. Similar game Cavs Nicks Sam Merrill's game winning three goes in and out. And he bet no. And I was texting with Mike yesterday that I'll just. I'll just share that. And he said something similar on LeBatard. He was like, well, I make mistakes. We all make mistakes. And I told him even before he went on LeBatard. I don't think that's a mistake. I think that's the exact authentic in the moment reaction that I want as a fan. Because it's in and then it's out. And you go, ben. Oh. And it's so the transition from that, the proto bang to no is so smooth. It's almost like it's a catchphrase that Mike Green would use. And it's. It's perfect. But you had a similar moment on that shot of like, is the game over? Is the game not over? And like, what an. I. I don't even know what you're thinking it. Reggie's laughing, the crowd's going crazy. Like, that is another one. One. It's. I don't know what you're thinking in that moment or how you handle it.
- [92:47]
Kevin Harlan
Well, I was not. I'm trying to go back and remember, but I. But, you know, was he on the line? Was he outside? Was he. Was he inside the arc or whatever was going through my mind and. Right. Yeah. And you don't want to. I mean, it was an incredible shot. And the Fact that it went in and had the bounce high, very high, like, one of the highest bounces I can recall. And then, boy, it went right. Right through the cylinder. It was one of those. You remember? And that was also a game, you know, Game one in the Garden. Like, it was like, holy cow. Like this. Had this head. It was monumental with the way they were hitting shots in that game. Anyway. So, yeah, there are those moments, but I think it's like what like, a fan would do. And knowing Mike the way I do, and we're good friends, he is such a fan. I mean, I just know how much he loves the game. Like, I don't know that I've ever run into anyone, actually, quite frankly, in the NBA that loves every aspect of this game. And he's so understanding and so empathetic, and he just has all these qualities that, as a viewer of a game that I want to hear in my broadcaster. And he always. He always conveys that. And just one of the thousands of reasons why he's probably the best we've ever had, along with Marv in the NBA. And so I know that feeling that we had another one like that, too, Zach. And Game six, couple of years ago, Miami, Boston, and White goes in at the buzzer and puts up the layup. And the officials, who. I immediately look forward because it's hard to call that and look at the clock and say, is my timing off? Is the light off? Is the buzzer? But I'm looking at the officials and I saw their reaction, and they didn't know. And so he goes in, and it was just. It was eyelash, how close it was, clearly. But he got it to go, and. But there was a stop. And I looked at the benches, and I get a reaction sometime of these players and their reaction. And both benches didn't know what had happened. So there are those moments when you're broadcasting where there's always this famous thing and in doubt layout. And so there's a little bit of a doubt there. Like, you gotta call the play, and then you've gotta say, but did the shot go in at the buzzer? And they're gonna take a look, but they had not ruled it yet. So there's always that pause. So I get what Mike's going through. We've all been through it. And you just hope your instincts are clear and concise for the viewer that, you know, you're. You're trying to put it together in real time. It's a live broadcast. There's no chance there to sit Back as you're writing and retype it or whatever and make it look good, what happened. You're calling it as a broadcaster as it's unfolding and it can be very challenging. And Mike and I have talked about that. All of us have gone through moments where there was a little bit of uncertainty.
- [95:50]
Zach Lowe
What is a game or a moment or a shot or a play that you wish you had called, that that was someone else's game and you watched it or you've thought about like, man, I wish I was on that game. That would have been so fun.
- [96:02]
Kevin Harlan
Yeah, there are. That's a good question. I guess I kind of feel like I've had at one time or another, you know, I called Michael Jordan from his fourth game rookie year and then I didn't call the NBA for about four years because the Kings left to go to Sacramento and that's when I got in the NFL. But I called Jordan from his fourth game as a pro with the Bulls. They played in Kansas City against the Kings. Larry Brown had his whole Jayhawk team, by the way, in the stands because of the North Carolina connection. And they all came down after the game, after I interviewed Jordan. And Mark Turgeon of all people goes, what was it like being by Jordan? Like is he thought, is he cooler than you thought? And called Jordan through his days with the Wizards, called every season of LeBron and Kobe. So I've been so blessed to see great shots, heroic plays. Steph Curry, now I've called him from his rookie year through these years in his career, called his 4000th three point shot made have been there. You know, I mean, I've not done NBA championships, but I would say this kind of extending your thoughts. But you know, Mike and myself and Ian, we're all kind of the same age people, you know, and in and around 60, a little bit of less, a little bit more. So someone asked me one time, you know, how does it feel that you'll never call an NBA final? And my response was, I think it was Richard Deitch I was talking to. I say, you know, my response to that would be because Mike has been this friend in the NBA for 30 plus years and I'll speak for everybody of our age group. Like I kind of feel like we're there calling the finals because Mike is such a leading voice for our group of broadcasters. He's covered the succession of finals that will never be equaled again, I don't think in the industry. So I feel like I'm right in back of him enjoying the moment. With him as his voice is chronicling these great finals that we've had a chance to watch. Big shots, Ray Allen or whoever, you know, the block by LeBron, just all these wonderful moments over the years. So I kind of feel like, even though I've done conference finals, clearly, but we'll never do an NBA final and always kind of feel like, you know, I feel like I've been with him on that journey and enjoy so much that he is the one representing our group of broadcasters in the league. So I kind of feel like I've been a part of it from afar and lived it through his eyes and voice and friendship. And I've always loved watching him be the flagship voice of this league.
- [98:59]
Zach Lowe
Well, I'm just saying, like, there have been, like, mini broadcast swaps before. A little like, kind of not stunts, but you know what I mean? We're like, I will invite this guy onto this broadcast, and maybe in the future there's a Kevin Harlan Finals, like, all right, let's bring them on. You know, it's time. Who knows? I do have, as a, As a. Well, I haven't written in a while, but as a writer, I do have to give you credit for this, and I want to ask you about it. I mean, all the. A lot of the best announcers, they go deep into the thesaurus, right? And sometimes it's. You feel like, are they overdoing it? Are they trying too hard? You have more. You don't have that many, but you have some pet phrases for a guy, like knifing his way into the lane. He machetes his way in, he trundles his way in. I'm not sure. I'm probably missing a couple. But like, machetes is. Is such a vivid one because you picture in the movies, like Indiana Jones going through a jungle like that. How do you land on these? Has there been one you've used that were like, oh, that didn't work. That's too violent or that's too off color that we can't use that one, like. And I'm probably forgetting some, but machetes and trundles are the ones that pops into my head first.
- [100:14]
Kevin Harlan
Well, I love words. And again, you hope that during the game that right word is there. And you're kind to mention that. And some of this is carryover from my NFL broadcasting, too, because there's so many, you know, running backs who try to gouge their way over the left guard for a gain of 3 or, or, or they bore their way or whatever the other Night, I was doing a Pistons Orlando playoff game. And our view courtside was of a guy, I think it was Tobias Harrison. I don't know if that is correct or not. But he came in, may have been Cade came in and went inside the paint, but with authority. Like, he went in, like, just unabashed. And I said, I use the word unflinchingly. And because from my viewpoint, that was the word that popped up because he did not blink. He just ramrodded his way, right?
- [101:08]
Zach Lowe
Ramrod. That's another one. Ramrod is another one. That's another Harlan special. I don't know that I've ever written down the word ramrod. I don't know that I will ever say the word ramrod outside the context of this conversation. I'm not even sure I know what a ramrod is or what.
- [101:27]
Kevin Harlan
I'm not sure. It just sounds like what a guy does. He's gonna ram it inside like that. And that's kind of where that probably came from. But I said unflinchingly, goes down the lane. And I was working with Jim Jackson, and I took off the headset and said, I have never. That we ended and it was a commercial pretty quick after. And I said, I don't think I've ever in my life just talking and just regular talking, have ever used the word unflinchingly before. So, again, I read a lot, and so maybe it comes from that. I will tell you this, and I'm not sure there are some people in my mind, Zach, that I hear their voices. When I was a kid, I used to try to emulate Fasinda and Summerall and Jim Simpson and Scott and. And Don Crickey and all these Dick Stockton, like, all these great voices. And I've still got them in my head, and I don't sound like any of them. But one guy who I listened to a lot I've not done NHL hockey was Emmerich.
- [102:29]
Zach Lowe
Oh, my God.
- [102:30]
Kevin Harlan
And Emmerich would use a lot of these words. And I've watched him since the early 2000s in various ways, maybe even before that. But my dad was a journalism major at Marquette, so he was a writer. And he always valued word usage. And he would always tell me, he said, when you're doing radio, he said, the word choice you use can paint a whole picture. One word can paint a whole picture of what happened on that play. So I always kind of took that to heart. Maybe just. I've got this catalog in my mind where these words will come up when they when they come up. But, yeah, I don't know. I don't know where they come from. I don't know how it comes out. And I'm probably best not knowing that, because if I looked at it too, you know, intricately, I'd probably begin to overthink it, and it wouldn't come out. Because in play by play, that stuff has got to be. It's got to come out. You cannot think about, you know, how that all transpires. So. But I do appreciate someone like you, a writer at heart, has come out, and I'm glad that, because I've not had a lot of people that have said it, and because no one's ever said it, I've never really thought about it. But I do. Going back watching my games, I'll think that word worked there. That word may. I don't know. I mean, there's some words that do and some that don't, and you use them and you move on. Because there's so many words that are used, of course, in a broadcast.
- [104:00]
Zach Lowe
Well, now you've given me a goal for the next 48 hours, which is I want to use the word unflinchingly. I want to say it out loud and somehow, like, I don't know. If you read Wright Thompson's Big Story, he wrote about Steve Kerr's decision to come back as Word.
- [104:13]
Kevin Harlan
I've got it pegged. I have not read it yet, but I've got it pegged.
- [104:15]
Zach Lowe
So one of the anecdotes in there is that Steve Kerr, I guess, in press conferences scattered throughout the year, basically recited a Taylor Swift song, lyric by lyric. He would sprinkle lyrics into one answer, one answer, and nobody realized it because obviously, who's gonna it? So now this is. I want to. I'm just trying to think, how would I use unflinchingly? It's like, could my wife be like, hey, did you cook dinner tonight? I was like, I unflinchingly dice the onions.
- [104:41]
Jason Timf
You know, just.
- [104:42]
Kevin Harlan
I didn't bat an eye. I went right into it. I grabbed the pan. I had the support, you know, the. The thing. And again, it's got to be one of those plays. And the best plays, sometimes for that kind of description, are ones that unfold. Like. Like I was saying, I was talking to a journalism class the other day, and I said, you know, it's interesting. You always hear ball players talk about when. When. When the pitch comes in, you're in such a zone and you're in such a sweet spot of Your focus and concentration that you can literally see the rotation of the ball and the seams on the ball. And George Brett would say that all the time when he was at the height of his powers. And you hear Brady talk about when he would drop bats when in quarterback, the great ones always say things were in slow motion. Manning would say, I could see the cross before the guy made the cut, and I could see the move and the stem of the route before it was even performed. And in broadcasting, there is a lot of that when your voice is. You're confident in it because you're not battling a cold or sniffles or allergies or whatever or a horse. And your voice is strong. It does lead, I think, at least for me, a confidence. And that's okay. That's one thing I don't have to worry about now. Now it's about pacing and periods and structure and cadence and things like that. And on that, unflinching. Not to get too deep into the weeds here, but when that guy made the move and our angle watching the. You could just sense that even though he was outside the free throw lane and almost more the circle and began to cut, swerve, and then dive, that. That he went in there, said, I'm getting that rim regardless of what's in my way, who's in my way, how many are in my way. And that made it. That's, I guess, where that word came in. He, with bravado, went in there and did not flinch at whatever was gonna be in the way. He went in there and made the play. And I guess that's the kind of thing you think when you're going slow enough and you're in that zone and things are in your mind's eye with the vocal, you know, exertion. When it happens like that, those words seem to really erupt, I guess. Well, that way, describing it.
- [107:02]
Zach Lowe
I'm going to unflinchingly get through the crowds at Madison Square Garden today to get to my seat and watch people ramrod and trundle and machete and into the lane. Kevin Harlan, you're the best. This is a joy. We're going to have to do this again when the NBA starts up next season. Your coverage on Amazon was awesome, and it's great to have you on. And we'll have to do it again. This has been a delight. Thank you for making some time.
- [107:26]
Kevin Harlan
I admire you greatly. Zach. I'm privileged to be on. Thank you so much. A lot of fun. And enjoy the game tonight at the Garden.
- [107:34]
Zach Lowe
All right, that's it for today's edition of the Zach Lowe Show. I'm headed over to Madison Square garden soon. Game 2 Knicks Cavs. What the hell will happen? Who the hell knows? Thank you to Jason Timm from Hoops tonight for coming on. Gotta watch his content, listen to his content. He's awesome. If you want to know what happened in the game, Jason is one of your guys. And thanks to the legend Kevin Harlan for being fun and being a good sport with all my silly questions. Thanks as always to Mike, Billy and Jonathan on production and thanks to you all for listening to and or watching the Zach Low Show. We will be back for a special Saturday episode because why not? It's the playoffs. We're going to do an instant reaction to Knicks Cavs Game three because I haven't covered that series as closely as the West Finals due to just the schedule of my podcast versus the schedule of the series. So Saturday we'll do a mini pod reacting to that game. Listen in for that. And thanks to everybody for listening and watching the Zach Low show. See you soon. 21 or over and President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over in President D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem cold 1-800- gambler or 1-800- my reset. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatincut or is it mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland? Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-Hopeny or text hopeny in New York. For Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7867.
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Kevin Harlan
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