B (3:40)

I'm doing great, man. It's playoff time. This is what we live for, Zach.

A (3:44)

A series doesn't start until the road team wins. Two road teams won last night. One Canada's team did not. Before we go on to those games, just we should quickly acknowledge our three game twos tonight. Typically, I don't talk too much about tonight's games because by the time this comes out, there's not a lot of lead time. Philly, Boston, Portland, San Antonio, Lakers, Houston. What's the one of those that you are watching most closely tonight or the one thing you are watching most closely tonight?

B (4:13)

Portland, San Antonio, I think is the most interesting of the three for me and it's not just because I'm enamored by Wemby. I want to see what Portland does defensively. They threw everything at him in game one and I want to know if they have more. Are we going to see something zones? Are they going to press full court? They had started out with Clingan on Castle, they had Kamara on Wemby. Then they switched eventually to the bigs on Wemby. And I just want to see how they kind of figure this stuff out and what do they have in the bag left? Because and to their credit, we're throwing it all out in game one and seeing what we can do and what's going to work. And to Wemby's credit, none of it worked.

A (4:53)

Yeah, I think that's the most interesting of the three series tonight. And I said this with Bill on Sunday, just what a debut for Wemby. Obviously the numbers were sensational, but the how he got there was unbelievable. Just in the sense of what you're talking about. Like Portland just went right away like we have nothing to save for game two. We're throwing every, every gambit we have at you right away in game one. And they problem solved, all of them. I think we might see more zone. That's one adjustment. Portland played a good deal of zone this year. We might see more but they're just at such a talent deficit and a scoring deficit. Philly, Boston. Tough hill to climb for the Sixers. Thought they did some good things against Boston's defense. Boston loves to, like I call them, peel switches or jump switches on, on, on pick and rolls where the guy guarding the ball handler will go over the screen and then peel out to a shooter and, and that shooter's guy will peel in to the ball handler. Philly knew that was coming, scouted it pretty well, prepared for it pretty well, just missed a bunch of shots. But the one to watch tonight to me is Lakers Houston. This is a must show up game for the Houston Rockets who laid a disastrous egg in game one. No offense, no structure, no plan, no second idea on any possession. Yeah, Durant was out, so were Luka and Reaves. Yeah, Van Vliet was out, so are Luka and Reaves. You got to have a better showing than that. I know that Finney Smith is giving you nothing. The bench is thin. Stephen Adams is hurt. That was a disgusting performance by a Rockets team who should beat the Lakers without Luca and Reeds and instead looked like they kind of got outclassed and outsmarted. Any other thoughts on that game tonight before we move on to the fun stuff?

B (6:29)

Yeah, I want to see how they use Shen offensively if KD is not able to go. How are we going to work that through? And is Deandre Ayton going to show up again defensively?

A (6:38)

Oh yeah.

B (6:39)

Dominated. Yeah. Like if I think that's the battle I'm trying to kind of figure out when I'm watching that game tonight. I'm going to be looking at how are the Rockets going to use Shangun with the lack of space that they have to give him some sort of room to operate. And I think that's the big problem for them.

A (6:56)

We shall see. I expect Celtics win, Spurs win. I'll pick Rockets win tonight. Okay, let's go on to the two games of last night and then look forward to Adjustments to come as these series move to the other arenas in Game 3. Denver, Minnesota. An absolute thriller in Denver where the Nuggets get off to a scorching start. The Timberwolves are making all kinds of mistakes on defense, in transition. In the half court, you're thinking, oh my God, maybe, you know, Ant's knee is bulky. He doesn't look like he's moving well. It's just been sort of a weird eh, year from the Timberwolves. Maybe we're just not going to have the series we hope for. And then Ant shows up and shows out this Timberwolves just across the board. Randall played with the level of physicality and aggression they need. I thought it was just a super high level game on both ends of the floor. Like both teams played super hard, super smart. And then down the stretch. What a stretch. One you want to go through the last couple minutes?

B (7:52)

Yes. Yes, please.

A (7:54)

A minute 30 left. Anti Vincenzo. Left side of the floor. Pick and roll. They're hunting Jamal Murray. Ants hunting Jamal Murray. I think he should do more of that. Ants hunting everybody. And he's, he's pushing a lot of the right buttons. Like these teams are not messing around. They're pushing the right buttons. They get to switch. Minnesota overloads that side of the floor, kind of doubles Ant to get the ball out of his hands. He kicks it to Dante DiVincenzo on the right side. Tim Hardaway Jr. Who's playing an enormous amount of minutes with the other starters, partly because Cam Johnson was in foul trouble and Peyton Watson's out. And that looms large. There's a lot of Tim Hardaway Jr happening. This might be the single best defensive possession of Tim Hardaway Jr. S life. He runs DiVincenzo off the arc. He rotates, overruns him off the arc. DiVincenzo drives, kicks it to Jada McDaniels. Hardaway peels out of the middle of the floor off DiVincenzo, onto McDaniels. Forces a crazy twisting fadeaway jump or miss by McDaniels, who otherwise had a pretty nice game. Denver runs it up. Aaron Gordon hits a three at that point. What's the score at that point? I don't even remember.

B (8:55)

It's a one point game at that point.

A (8:56)

It's 1 12, 112, 111. DiVincenzo then hits a three off the same kind of action. It's 1 15, 1 11. Nicola Jokic runs an inverted pick and roll with Jamal Murray, which is something I talked about going into the Series. I think they should run it even more. It puts Gobert, who's been awesome defensively, stoned Jokic in the post multiple times last night. Got a massive offensive rebound put back. Dunk over Jokic late in the game. He's just been awesome. Kind of got stuck under the screen and. And Jokic starts rumbling toward the rim and I swear to God, Mo, when he went up, not with two hands, with one hand and dunked it, I literally screamed holy shit in my office. You just don't expect him to dunk the ball like that. Then ant travels and the door is open for Denver. It's a two point game. Ant travels, it's like, oh my God. Okay, it's nervous time. Christian Brown is fouled under the rim for Denver on another inverted pick and roll. No, it was a Murray Jokic and roll straight up.

B (9:55)

Yeah.

A (9:55)

One out of two nervous time to one point game. Julius Randall gets fouled on the other end. They take the foul. He makes two of two kudos to Julius Randall. The Wolves had bonked a ton of free throws. Julius Randall don't bog those. And then Jamal Murray takes bottom five all time. Worst quick two in the history of the NBA with his team down three, not that quick and not close to the rim. No chance of drawing a foul miss. Game over. Divincenzo run out. Just an awesome game. I thought both, I just thought it was such a well played game. And I think it highlights like how difficult this road is going to be for whoever wins this series. Because the more I get into this, the playoffs are just so hard that I think if you're going to win a title, I think somewhere along the way you got to have a four or five game series. You just can't load up on six and seven game series. And I'm going to get into this with the Knicks. I was joking before. Knicks Hawks with our buddy Sam Morrell. Great stand up comed and huge Knicks fan. Was courtside taunting CJ McCollum last night. I said I picked up the Knicks in six and he's like I would love it if it was four or five. And I just said I just don't think the Knicks are built to play short series either way. Like I don't think they're going to ever get swept or lose in five games. I don't think they're ever going to win in four or five games. They're just not built to play that kind of series and I think you just need one. And now Denver had a chance to make this one and they didn't make this one a short series. So. Okay, after two games, Denver's offensive rating is 112 points per 100 possessions. That's nine points below their season leading average. What are you seeing from Minnesota? How did they dig back into this series last night?

B (11:36)

Yeah, I think it started first off really on the offensive end for them. They crushed them on the boards and that allowed them to play slower basketball, right? Allowed them to play set defense because they get the ball in the hoop more when they're getting those second chance points. They're able to set their defense on the other end of the court. And you, you mentioned it, but Gobert has been absolutely phenomenal on Jokic for two games now, like in the post, and they've kind of taken that away. And something that was key to me in this one was they didn't really double Jokic all that much late in the game. And that's their way of saying, hey, we'll let Yoko score, but we're not going to let him get four or five assists in a, in, in a quarter and hurt us with the way he kicks the ball around and has us flying and in rotation and in tough spots. I felt like that was the first thing I kind of noticed right away was just saying we trust Rudy to stand him up, play him well in the post. We're not going to send help. And when they did that, it made it harder for everybody else to get those things. You know, the cuts from Aaron Gordon or finding Murray open for a three or, or all that Christian Brown and that stuff. I think it kind of slowed them down offensively and had them playing later into the shot clock than they wanted to. And I think that put a lot of pressure on the Nuggets on the offensive end.

A (12:52)

I think they should post Jokic more, even if it's against Gobert. And especially like going into the series. I wondered, are they just going to have to attach Gobert to Jokic and just play him every minute that Jokic plays? And obviously the Nuggets are very smartly staggering. Murray and Jokic, perhaps Mike Brown should watch that series a little bit.

B (13:09)

We'll talk about that.

A (13:11)

The Wolves, on the other hand, are resting Ant and Randle at the same time as they have done throughout the season. It's been one of the sort of push and pulls for them and they won those minutes last night. But I think they should post Jokic more, even when Gobert's in the game, and especially when he's not in the game. I think there's some places they can poke at Minnesota's defense a little bit more. Nas Reed I think is another guy that like Jamal Murray should hunt him a little bit and try to attack his feet. But I don't think they're posting Jokic enough. The other thing is like the Murray Jokic pick and roll. I. You can count on one hand, I think the number of pocket passes Jokic has caught in the Florida range. They are just committed to taking those away by either just letting Murray drive and staying attached to Jokic by having Gobert stay just close enough when he drops back that Murray's like, I don't know if that pocket passes there and then they late switch or. And Jokic is popping a lot for threes and they're just psyched. If Yoko just taking threes, how are they like what are you seeing from that in terms of the two man game and how they're taking that away?

B (14:13)

Yeah, I think you, you've touched on it. I think they're focused more on the fact of there's an. They're focused on taking that specific pocket pass away. Like that's. Or at least make them hesitant a little bit. And it's everything that you said. We're going to stick with Murray. We're going to fight over the top of it. We're going to show a little bit but still stay attached. We're not going to get too overextended. And then we're also going to have a little bit of help from the other side right where the side Murray's coming towards. You know, just a little bit of just, hey, I'm going to show a little bit and then get back to my guy and kind of dig. Excuse me. It took me minute to find the word just dig a little bit or stunt and then get back to my guy.

A (14:48)

Well, let, let the other guys shoot threes. Let Christian Brown shoot threes. Let live with those guys. If you have, if, if you have to swarm the middle of the floor to keep the ball out of Yoko's hands or to just stop Murray at the rim when you just sort of let him go and let him drive to the rim. Let the other guys shoot.

B (15:05)

Yeah, and I think that's sort of the way they're doing it. It's not just two guys defending the pick and roll. It's really kind of the whole team. And then to your point too, you. Jokic is popping a lot and he's, I mean his three ball has been gone. Like I don't know where. Like it's. It's definitely, you know, missing on a milk carton somewhere. He hasn't had that thing since post All Star break. And it's really a thing where they will happily live with him settling for that than. Than him rolling to the rim. And then even the times when he did get. Get it late in that game, the play you were talking about where Christian Brown got fouled and missed the free throws, it was off Jokic in a pick and roll having possibly a floater. Ant pulled all the way in and had Jokic kind of indecisively deciding no, no floater. And then I'm going to throw it to Brown there on the baseline. And I think that was, you know, just an encapsulation of this is how they're defending it. It's basically all alert by the Wolves. We're going to pull in completely on that.

A (16:00)

He had another turnover Jokic did on a. On a Murray Jokic pick and roll where he got the ball in the middle of the floor and had a decent look at a floater and also had Christian Brown wide corner and just weirdly tried to pass the ball back to Murray from like two feet away when Murray was not open and Gobert knocked it away and stole it. And like Yach only had three turnovers in this game. I think he had five in game one. It's just some of them are just not characteristic of him. And this has been a theme since he came back from knee injury that I mean, Randall Randle. For the Wolves to win this series, the most obvious thing was they need Julius Randle to be the guy who was an all NBA level player twice in his career. And he was not that in game one. And in game two he just came out and was like, I'm just going to beat the shit out of everybody. Like if there's a. If there's any moment when Aaron Gordon is not on me, if I switch on defense and I have a cross match on offense, if I just the random flow of the game, all of a sudden Christian Brown's on me or Cam Johnson's on me, I'm just going to bulldoze, bulldoze those guys and go to the basket and he made his free throws and defensively I thought he played pretty well. Like they're going to need that kind of Julius Randle three more times to win this series. And ant playing on a knee that's clearly bothering him. He only shot 10 of 25, 3 of 11 from threes. He only had two assists. I thought he played an awesome floor game. Like when they're putting two on him in the pick and roll. He's getting off the ball. He's making the right pass. And that's when the Wolves are at their best. The ball starts moving and here comes Nas Reed driving from the corner. Here comes Jaden McDaniels driving from the corner. Here comes the Blender. I think he can do even more, particularly in the moments when Gobert's not on the floor and the spacing is a little better. Just pick your matchup and attack. And he did this with Aaron Gordon a couple times. Aaron Gordon cannot stay in front of him. And there were two drives in this game where he got Aaron Gordon. It was Aunt Julius Randle. Pick and roll. Aaron Gordon switches. He didn't bring the ball out. He didn't dance with it. It was just one continuous drive blow by Aaron Gordon. He drew a foul at the rim on one layup. I think on another, he had unbelievable instances of rim protection on defense. Like really, really gutty performance from him. And I just thought again, super high level game on both ends. Yeah.

B (18:11)

And I think, you know, talking about just Antony. There was one possession, I think it was early in the first quarter where he actually even grabbed at it, you know, like bringing the ball up to court, past it and then stopped for a second. And then that's where I was just like, wow, we're in trouble. But again, defensively too, like the way he was getting some blocks. He had a late chase down block on Tim Hardaway Jr. In a big possession, all those things. But when you're talking about what he's doing offensively, he's really kind of orchestrating it. It's a conductor almost at the symphony. Excuse me. And just sort of just getting everybody in the right spots and he's getting it out so quickly off of the double. Teams every time they send the double, it's out quickly. That Dante DiVincenzo 3 is because of that. Right. And it caught the. The Nuggets off guard. Tim Hardaway Jr. Wasn't in position to rotate over and help clean three in that opportunity there. And I think the thing we're seeing more importantly is this is where they miss Peyton Watson. If you're the Nuggets, like this is. This is where it. Like that was the matchup for the Nuggets was we're going to put Peyton on ant and we're going to be able to help from behind there. And then Aaron Gordon can rotate over Be the second guy and meet him at the rim and be more, more of a rim protecting threat. And I think that's been the big thing that they're missing right there because Gordon can't stay with him. He's going to overpower Christian Brown. Like there's not really a lot of, you know, Bruce Brown doesn't have enough size to really take Ant. Like there's going to be a lot of problems. Cam Johnson's not good enough defensively as a one on one defender to take on Ant. Like they're, there was a lot of holes there when they don't have Watson. That's a missing piece for them on that end.

A (19:50)

Totally agree. And by the way, you know who else, who else pointed out the Nuggets defensive limitations? Jaden McDaniels after the game. Did you, did you see this? We have. You know, you know what's not Ms. Peyton Watson's missing from the series. You know what's not missing is spice. And this is why the playoffs are awesome. And this is why rivalries are awesome. This is 30 times these teams have played now in four years. Three playoff series in four years. It's 15 a piece. And Jaden McDaniels after the game. What are we going to do? What's the game plan? Go after Jokic. Jamal. All the bad defenders, said McDaniels. Tim Hardaway Jr. Cam Johnson, Aaron Gordon.

B (20:27)

Okay.

A (20:28)

The whole team just go at him. Question. So they're all bad defenders? Yeah, they're all bad defenders. Okay. We're not even being careful anymore. We're just going to just say the whole team sucks at this one element of the game. We also had at least the third high profile incident of Jokic trying to inbound the ball in a playoff game and getting into a confrontation over it. This one was when he tried to take it from Anthony Edwards. A long, distinguished line of people. Jeff Van Gundy and of course famously the flop Tastic Matt Ispia in Phoenix. Jokic wants the freaking ball. Just if you have it, just beware. That's a. I don't remember quite a comment like that from a player. I mean, we're only going into game three. Jaden McDaniel shoved. Did you shove Yokich from behind in game one? I think was it.

B (21:17)

Was it was. It was Jokic.

A (21:18)

Yeah. Started to unravel. Like this is. I mean, I, I don't, I don't. These teams seem too mature and too, and too much aware of what's at stake for any sort of like conflagration to happen where people would risk suspension. But, my God, Jaden McDan, okay, I mean, you better.

B (21:36)

You.

A (21:36)

You. I mean, you better back it up.

B (21:37)

I.

A (21:38)

You better put, like, 140 points up on them next game.

B (21:40)

Well, I mean, I think that's the. I think that's the fun stuff, right? Like, we've talked about it all the times, and everybody's been complaining for years. Like, where are the rivalries? Rivalries are built in the playoffs. And I didn't even realize it's been 30 games over the last four years. I know it's been a ton and it's been a. You know, Minnesota winning a Game seven in Denver is always going to be a big thing, right? And I think that's a huge thing to kind of look at it. The rivalry is awesome, and I love it when they jump into this a little bit. Like, let's have some of that spice. Like, I appreciated Jaden McDaniels. I don't agree necessarily with everything he said, but I appreciate that he's putting that out there, putting his name on it, and it's just, hey, yeah, I said it. Let's go with it and see what happens. And I hope the Nuggets respond in Game three to give us another one of these wild battles. I hope Aaron Gordon looks at him going like, yeah, I'm a bad defender, me. Okay, let me show you.

A (22:32)

You're, like, one step away from just being like, his mom's ugly. He's. He's. He's got. His face is ugly. His dog stinks. Like, how far is this going to go? Like, he drives a shitty car. Have you seen his car? He doesn't know how to dress. Like, let's get. Let's get real personal here. What else? I just think these teams are pushing each other to the limit. Like, and that. And that's what's fun about this, is you see how I think defend. Denver has largely defended pretty well in this series for a team allegedly comprised of bad defenders. And I think Minnesota has. Has defended pretty well in this series for a team that's largely comprised of good defenders. Minnesota's top seven is just a plus plus. And then whatever they get from bones and slo mo beyond that is. Is gravy. Denver, we know they have a great starting five, but you see, like, the amount of the lengths that these two teams have to go to to just get good looks in the half court. I think you're seeing both teams try to get, like, get ant moving off the ball. On an empty side of the floor. Get him a head start. You saw the Wolves doing that. You saw the Nuggets doing that with their guys too. Just like, how can we. Like a Jokic, Murray, Jokic pick and roll on the left side with no shooter there? Is that a place that we can poke and. And the. And the Wolves are doing that with DiVincenzo coming off pin downs and Ant coming off of pin downs. And if you watch them, they are sprinting into the ball. Like sprinting into the ball, getting the defense to commit, getting it to the second side. I think both teams need to deep. Dig even deeper into those kind of bags offensively and trying to look at my other notes to see what else I have here. I. I just love this series. I did think it was interesting. I'm interested in Denver's defensively. Do they. Do they try to mix it up a little bit more? In other words, like, Minnesota understood by the end of that game, all right, they're hunting. I'm sorry, they're.

B (24:19)

We're.

A (24:20)

We're hunting Jamal Murray. They're going to give us that switch and then they're going to double. Will we see sort of more random blitzes by Denver? Will we see a little bit more zone defense? Not like surrendering the switch quite as easily. And I think on the other end, this the kind of same thing. Like Kyle Anderson unleashed a random blitz out of nowhere that caught him off guard. And we saw glimpses of jokic hiding on McDaniels and even Desumu, which did not work. I'll blew by him. But just the chess match of like, where's Jokic going to be defensively is interesting, too.

B (24:50)

Yeah. Just finding moments where you can at least give him a break defensively, you know, like when he's there with Rudy, he's still banging with Rudy battling for boards, you know, on the. On the offensive glass, you know, and everything. Like, there's a lot. You want to find a way to give him a little bit of rest. The conceding of switches and this has always been a problem for me, and this is going to. It drives me insane. But, like, we know Murray shouldn't switch on to Ant. Like, and I know the plan is okay, then we're going to go double, and that puts us in a tough situation. We've been through this enough where at least like, can Murray have learned by now the Steph Curry dark arts of let me show really hard and slow you up. And then, you know, we. We chase underneath and get back to Ant. And then I go back to my guy. Like, I'm. At what point are we just going to stop conceding switches? And it's not just the Nuggets. We're going to talk about it when we get to the Knicks game. Like, it's just constantly. At what point are teams going to start looking at it, going like, we're going to give you the matchup you constantly want, and then we're going to put ourselves in rotation to cover for that. Like, at some point you got to. You're the problem.

A (25:54)

It's. You're, you're.

B (25:55)

You're allowing these switches. And it drives me insane when they can see these switches so easily.

A (26:00)

And sometimes, Zach, they're bad screens.

B (26:03)

Like, it's not a good enough screen to force the switch. And it's. That's the stuff that just drives me nuts when I'm watching these games.

A (26:09)

Well, I think, I think part of it is that these offenses are so good that you just can't do the same thing over and over. So if you did try to blitz them or trap them, and if you do that every time, all right, you know that's coming. We're going to work around that. We're going to put you in the blender. We're going to get open threes, we're going to get dunks. I think the key is you just have to mix it up a little bit so they just can't walk into a comfort zone and know what's coming. Similarly, like Ant. My favorite thing that Ant does against Jokic, I call it, no pun intended, from where I work, putting him through the ringer on the pick and roll, which is like, all right. And they had one where he missed a great three out of it last night where one pick Ant, Gobert going to Ant's left. Jokic shows up pretty high on the screen. Ant pulls up and. And kicks it to. Maybe it was Aunt Randall, actually, I can't remember. But anyway, it was Aunt Randall. Ant kicks it to yo. To Randall. Randall takes like one hard step in and Jokic is like, all right, I'm going back into the paint. Randall pitches it back to Ant, and now Jokic can't show high because he's taken a step back to protect against Randle's drive. When they make Jokic defend two or three actions in a rapid fire sequence like that, it's hard for him and they get good looks. Fascinating series. I picked Denver in six before the series. I guess I'll stick with that. Did you Make a pick or no, I did.

B (27:28)

I also had Denver in six and you know, I'm hoping for a seven game series, just more fireworks. Okay.

A (27:35)

Knicks Hawks one one. Just an incredible weird come from behind game by the Hawks where the Knicks ran out of timeouts. CJ McConnell missed two free throws in a row with the Hawks up one and the Knicks had to sprint up. Got a decent look at a McHale Bridges game winning two point jump shot from the left side. Would have probably gotten a better look or certainly the. That, that's a reasonable look. Even if you advance the ball and take it out of bounds because you have a timeout, that's, that's still a reasonable look. But your, your universe of possible outcomes is still much better including fouls, drives, all that stuff. If you have a timeout and you advance the ball. The Knicks ran out of timeouts. We had OG Anunoby missing a couple of clutch threes. We had Brunson missing a great runner but then a good runner and then making a three. We had just like a lot of stuff going on in this game and the Knicks fall from ahead and lose. I thought frankly, like Mike Brown and his coaching staff coached a bad game. Running out of timeouts is one thing I just could not believe after the first half when they sat Brunson and Cat together. And I know, I watched the Knicks, I know they've been doing this for two, three weeks, the last two, three weeks for the regular season. And I think the intent is good. The intent is we have to get the Brunson Cat two man game going together. Let's maximize their minutes together and hope we can survive offensively with, you know, multiple point guards on the floor and Deuce and Jose, or Deuce and you know, a hybrid guard like Clarkson and Robinson's offensive rebounding. Hope we can survive and then get them back on the floor together. Well, they didn't survive in the second quarter and then they did it again to open the fourth quarter. In it all, they were -7 in 12 minutes with Kat and Brunson on the floor. I just couldn't believe they risked it again. I thought it was a huge mistake. And not only that you only have one starter on the floor, it's a bunch of bench guys and it's either an anobi or hard. It's just not, it's not reliable enough offensively. And before I let you go, what you saw from the Hawks, I will say the moment I saw Steve Cohen, the owner of the Mets, sitting courtside at the Game. I thought, well the Knicks are going to lose. Like this is all this guy does right now is lose and then tweet about. I'm sure. I'm surprised we haven't seen a tweet from him about how he saw some green shoots from the Knicks in the fourth quarter. Just like when the Mets lost their first game to the Dodgers. He tweeted the most tone deaf tweet of all time. Oh, sorry, nobody likes losing. I saw some green shoots, Lindor hit a hard home run and blah blah blah. You know how many games the Mets have won since the green shoots came out? None. Somebody must have cut the freaking grass. Or the green shoes got too much sun and turned brown. Mo we had a big Kaminga game less Dyson Daniels. The cat matchup on both ends of the floor is super interesting. He was invisible mostly in the fourth. What, what, what happened? What's going on?

B (30:27)

I just want to go back to the Mike Brown timeouts because this drove me nuts and it's I guess playoffs drives me nuts. The first off going into the possession with 3 minutes 16 seconds left, they still had three timeouts. You had the use it or lose it timeout. Doesn't use that time out there and they get a missed Josh Hart 3. Then after a possession with the Hawks, Brunson looks like he has a driving lane with 243 left. He calls a timeout and I'm like wow, you used your, your, your first of two time, your your first of two timeouts like way too early and gave up an opportunity where Brunson looked like he had maybe not an advantage but had a chance to put the Hawks in a situation where they got rotate and it was so bad actually everybody was so shocked by the timeout they thought the refs were calling a foul. If you look at it, you go back and watch Nikhil Alexander Walker's like

A (31:24)

I didn't touch him.

B (31:25)

And it's like no, it's a timeout and everybody's like oh okay fine. And then what do you run out of the timeout? Just a Josh Hart Jalen Brunson inverted pick and roll and you got nothing out of the play.

A (31:36)

I thought, by the way, I thought that the reason and we'll talk about the lack of Brunson cat two man game down the stretch. I thought the reason why they went to Brunson Hart was because a congu was on Josh Hart and so they thought let's bring their big man into the two man game and see if they switch and Brunson can attack that. If they blitz, we can attack that. I thought Atlanta, to credit them, did a fantastic job covering that play, starting with Alexander Walker on the ball. But when they blitzed it and they would double Brunson temporarily and Hart would slip, that's when the Knicks normally hit their platonic ideal where they start swinging the ball all the way around the Hawks by just little stunts here and there, including by Alexander Walker sometimes retreating half a step toward Josh Hart with his hands up. Made Brunson's decision making a little cloudy and sort of covered that play without surrendering much. I thought they did a nice job defending it continue, but.

B (32:29)

So you blow that time out, though. And they did. And give the Hawks credit. Great job defensively. But you didn't. It wasn't like you couldn't have called that on the fly like that needed a timeout. And for me, those last two timeouts in the last three minutes are so critical for exactly what you talked about, Zach. If they got the C.J. missed free throws and were able to call a timeout and then run a play right after, they just ran a great ato and got Jalen Brunson a clean look at a three, you have another opportunity to really improve your situation and your chance to win this game. Like, I was just blown away by that. You've already mentioned the, the lineup to start the fourth quarter, which just like completely drove me insane with how they did this was a coaching loss at the end of the day, and that's going to be a thing. They blew it, especially in the fourth quarter with how they, how he kind of coached that game.

A (33:19)

And, and my Hawks fan friends calling around are going to say, well, why are you giving all the, all the blame to the Knicks and none of the credit to the Hawks? Number one, I just told you how well they played defensively. Number two, CJ McCollum just. I mean, talk about spice. This dude wants, like, is getting booed for kicking people in the balls and like calling Jalen Brunson a flopper. Basically made one big shot after another. I frankly embarrassed Jalen Brunson late in the game. They wanted that switch every time. The Knicks gave it every time. As you alluded to before, I expect the Knicks to provide a little bit more variety and resistance to just leaving Jalen Brunson out on an island. And that doesn't mean you switch and then you double and CJ McCollum can see it all coming. I think it means you mix in blitzes, you mix in different kinds of defenses. And by the way, on his jumper, which put the I believe it put the hawks up by two with 33 seconds left in the game. He kind of kicked Ochi and an opiate like there was kind of another og. Didn't react like maybe he's just got a lot of protection down there. It was a light hit, but it was the same motion. And I thought, oh my God, are we going to get another thing? CJ is the most unlikely New York City playoff villain that I can think of in recent vintage because he's just such a nice guy and everyone respects him and people are like, wow, C.J. mcCollum, what a playoff moment. Don't act like this guy hasn't done this before. 2019 with the Blazers. That dude closed out Denver on the road in game seven in the second round of the playoffs. This dude is clutch, fearless and has a deep, deep bag of tricks and he unleashed all of it against the Knicks last night. But to your point, it did feel like everything was pointing the Knicks way. They're up double figures. The Brunson Cat pick and roll has been really effective, particularly in game one. You've got a Congu guarding Cat for a lot of the game. They started with Daniels on Cat in this game. After mostly a Congu in Game one, they wanted Dyson on Cat to switch to take away his threes. They gave up on that in part because they kind of gave up on Daniels for a bit and put a Congo back on them. They're gifting you the matchup that you want that has worked so well. You're up by double figures. You have the Hawks confused about who to play. Like can we even play Daniels and Jalen Johnson in Kaminga together? The answer, they concluded, was no and that trio is minus six in 20 minutes. Just not enough shooting. You have the offense successfully directed away from Atlanta's best player. Jalen Johnson just had two okay games but doesn't feel as involved as he should feel because of how you've sprinkled your defensive assignments around. You have a lot of McCollum going at Brunson. You'll have a lot of McCollum, Daniels or McCollum Kaminga. Two man game to attack Brunson and Cat, which is all well and good for the Hawks, but if you're the Knicks you're like, hey, that's takes you out of what you want to do. Everything is pointing to 2:0 and we're on the road to a 4:1 win. We're gonna split in Atlanta. Come Back here, get the job done, get a short series. And now, now it's anybody series. But it did feel going into the fourth quarter like everything was pointing to a roadmap to a short series for the Knicks and the Hawks took it away from him.

B (36:26)

Yeah, and it was really impressive. Also like Jonathan Kaminga played one of his best games as a Hawk, like in a big moment. I thought he was good defensively for the most part. I thought that he started the 11:0 run by getting out in transition after they got a stop.

A (36:43)

I want to ask you this point blank, let's clarify it because he basically became Dyson Daniels like he was. It was the starting five with Kaminga in Dyson Daniels place. And you want to say, well, what's the difference? Like they're both people that are not going to get guarded from three. They're both often like Kaminga guarded Cat down the stretch just like Dyson Daniels did. But I'm asking you, like, what was the difference? Why did it work better with him in Dyson Daniels place?

B (37:09)

I think one, he just has a little bit more size, right? And I like it's like a kind of a cop out answer. But he just had a little bit more size than Daniels. So it's a little harder for Cat. But then also he can, he had a big time block on OG down the stretch and that, you know, that's something like Daniels can do. But I feel a little bit more confident with Kaminga coming in from behind and getting that big time block and doing all that. I thought he was just all in all every which way he switched with his size and physicality. Like OG can't really bully him just on the physical side of it. Whereas Daniels is a little bit thinner in that area. I think is a bit more of a issue for them. And I thought ultimately this is, this is the Kaminga you want. The problem with Kaminga is this is not consistently what we get. Right. Like that's why he's not, you know, in the starting lineup. And it is Dyson Daniels and they do trust him to start the game some more. But I think ultimately you can get a lot of the stuff, not the steals that Daniels does. The great barrier thief is, is, you know, is he is what he is and it's going to be that. But I think with Kaminga you get a little bit more like physicality and can stand up guys a bit more and I think that's the big difference.

A (38:21)

And he guarded Cat a lot down the stretch. Cat guarded him a lot down the stretch. And you know, I still think like, like, just because the opposing center is not guarding Cat doesn't mean if you're the Knicks, you go away from the Brunson Cat two man game because you still have Nikhil Alexander Walker and Kaminga involved. Let's see what they do if they switch that. Now you have Nikhil Alexander Walker on Karl Anthony Towns. That's a friendly post up for him. Much more so than him on Kaminga. I also think to your point about Kaminga's size, he got a monster contested rebound down the stretch and he's just more forceful. If you're going to use him as a roller, which they can. When a congu is spacing the floor, he's more forceful going to the rim and dunking. He had a pretty hard dunk in that game. I also think the Knicks, like, you're letting C.J. mcCollum off the hook. He's over here on Josh Hart and he's over here pointedly on Mikhail Bridges for a lot of the fourth quarter. In the second half, you traded five first round picks for Mikhail Bridges. Fucking use him. Use him as a ball handler. Use him with Cat in the pick and roll. Either way, I don't care if C.J. mcCollum's on him. Have him screen for Jalen Brunson. You are letting CJ McCollum off the hook defensively, allowing him to just exist out there and save all his energy to cook your ass down the stretch of the game.

B (39:36)

Yeah, and that's been one of my frustrations with the Knicks usage of Bridges overall. But I think also at the end of the day too, it's like this is a matchup waiting for you to take advantage. Okay, he put him on Mikhail. We don't, we don't, we don't run that. So we're, we're, we're, we're fine. We're not going to kind of attack that. Like, you need to go at this constantly. And really, like when we're talking about staggering lineups. Put Bridges with Cat when you want to rest Jalen Brunson and let Bridges run some pick and roll with Cat. And then, you know, you're able to attack more and get Bridges a little bit more involved as well because, yeah, you've given up a ton for him. I want to go back a little bit. There was a big moment to me that it was subtle. Well, not so subtle, but that CJ Jose Alvarado moment where they were kind of chirping at each other and love

A (40:27)

and all respect between those two, I'm sure.

B (40:29)

Yeah, yeah, it was. And you know, former teammates in New Orleans and all that. I'm sure they were saying, isn't it great? We're both in the playoffs, look at us now. But I felt like that moment was a situation where it was a big moment for the hawks. It was C.J. kind of signaling to the dude, the Hawks, yo, we're not taking this bullshit anymore. Like let's go, you know, and, and there was a time out they were talking about one of the reports where Nikki Alexander Walker was talking about, yo, we gotta ramp up our physicality and things like that. I felt like when C.J. did that, I felt like it was a slight little turn for the Hawks where they were like, yeah, like let's go, let's go to work now. Like let's. Let's put up a fight there. And I think that was a. It was a small moment that'll go under the radar. But I thought it was a big bigger moment than people realize.

A (41:16)

I like it. Obviously the spice factor high in this series too. And that's what, that's what you want in the playoffs. A couple of things that other things that I would look for in game three. I do think the Hawks will make a pointed effort to get Jalen Johnson going some. Some on offense. The Knicks have been very smart, going way under on pick and rolls when they do put use him as the ball handler and have a guard screen for him. And so the Knicks have been on that. I do wonder didn't feel like Mitchell Robinson played enough in this game for how impactful he could be. Obviously some of that is the hack a Mitch that Quinn Snyder is clearly going to use. They pulled him for that reason. I also wonder if like will we see the sort of five out spacing lineups that the Knicks don't play much with kat at the 5 and. And Josh Hart not on the floor and a guard in his in his place. Will we see that a little bit? Like, I just think there are little tweaks here and there for both teams. Obviously no Reese Sachet a tiny bit of kispert Hawks just cinching that rotation even tighter. I was hoping for a long series and it looks like we're getting a long series. Any other closing thoughts about what to look for in game three?

B (42:20)

No, I think this was pretty impressive with the way the Hawks kind of battled back. And this is what the Hawks do, right? They just stay in these games and then find a way to pull it out and I think that was a big one. And man, is Madison Square Garden going to learn. Like, you started taunting cj, CJ started taunting you back. And then they, they go nuts, you know, and CJ goes off like, it's, it's pretty fun. It's just fun.

A (42:44)

Overall, they are not going to learn and I don't want them to learn. I just, I actually thought, you know, they got the crowd got some eye rolling flack for the F Trey Young chance in game one. I just thought that's like an interesting hat tip to history. Like, it's like I feel the same way when the Wizards are booing Kelly Olenek every time he touches the ball and the crowd and half people in the crowd and even the announcers are like, wait, why are they booing Kelly Olenek? And you have to go back and explain. Like, well, like nine years ago in a playoff series, there was this thing that happened and it's just a delight.

B (43:17)

Even had to even, even the mayor blamed Trae Young for high ticket prices.

A (43:22)

That's right.

B (43:23)

Like, we're getting it all around. I love it and I love what these two teams meet. We just, we're going to have fun.

A (43:29)

All right, let's take a break and we'll talk about the return of Labranto in Cleveland. Toronto. The Zach Lowe show is brought to you by FanDuel. The NBA playoffs are here and everything's on the line. Every possession matters. Every bucket swings the game. And tonight is your shot to boost your bet. That's right, all customers get a profit boost tonight. So when the moment hits your win hits bigger. Lock in your bets, boost your odds and make the playoffs. Pay off with FanDuel, official sports betting partner of the NBA. Head to FanDuel.com low to get started. FanDuel. Play your game 21 or over in slug states or 18 and over in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Opt in required bonus issued is now withdrawable. Profit boost tokens gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatincenetic this episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. The playoffs are almost here. My favorite thing about the NBA playoffs, the intensity and the strategy. Every game is treated like a must win game. Even when A team is up 30 every quarter, every half has a new adjustment that you got to really be dialed in to track. Oh, that guy's guarding that guy now. Why are they doing that? How is the other team going to counter that? It's the chess match that we don't really see quite as much of in the regular season. It's dialed up from the opening tip of Game one in the playoffs. Playoffs are just awesome in the NBA. You know what else is just as great? Opening up a new bottle of Michelob Ultra. It's refreshing, light with only 95 calories. Plus as the official beer partner of the NBA, they're giving fans a chance to win courtside tickets, unique prizes and more. Michelob Ultra Superior is worth playing for. Enter now at michelobultra.com courtside Michelob Ultra Courtside 25 to 26. No purchase necessary. Open to US residents. 21/plus begins on October 1, 2025 and ends on June 30, 2026. Multiple entry periods. See official rules@michelob ultra.com courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes and details okay, the other game from last night that did not result in a road win or a one one series Raptors Cavs just a sort of general pull away for Cleveland. Like didn't felt mildly threatened here and there. Never really felt like Toronto was going to get over the hump, get within two, take a lead or anything like that. Just a very dispiriting start to the series for the Raptors. Number one. As much as it feels like the Raptors have a hard time generating good shots and they do. The Cavs have averaged 122 points per 100 possessions through two games. They are lighting up that would have led the league. That's Denver, basically offense. They are lighting up the number five defense in the league and they're doing it in the easiest way possible, which is just like we're just going to like you got all these good big defenders. Bring us Brandon Ingram, bring us RJ Barrett. Like bring us mamu. But really like Mitchell and Harden are going at Brandon Ingram and RJ Barrett and just saying you guys can't stay in front of us one on one. Let's keep this as simple as possible. Both the guards are playing great and for Toronto, the other dispiriting thing is, and I said this in Bill's podcast on Sunday, I said I'm waiting for the moment where they start calling Murray Boyles over Portal. It already happened. At halftime they completely bench Portal just decided he is too much of an offensive zero. Doesn't bring any we lose some rebounding and some shot blocking but we gain some switchability and a little bit more offensive punch. And look, I, I, I'm, I feel bad saying it over and over again. It's the single most. It's the single most inexplicable contract in the entire NBA from the last 24 months is their decision to make a big money extension Diakop Portal a year and change before they even had to begin thinking about it. And now we can't even play in this playoff series. And it doesn't even matter who they play because Cleveland's just like, if Scotty Barnes is in the game, we'll put Mobley on him and we'll hide our weaker defenders on Mamu or even Murray Boyles or Portal, and maybe we'll actually put Evan Mobley somewhere else and put Jaylon Tyson on Scotty Barnes and have Evan Mobley as a helper. Like, they just feel comfortable putting their best defenders wherever and just daring Toronto without Emmanuel Quickley to create any kind of offense against their guards. And they can't do it.

B (47:49)

Yeah, well, I mean, they can't create any sort of real dribble penetration. Like, they're just not getting into the pain enough with. With their actions and the way that they're going about it. One note, I kind of had, like on my podcast with Jared Dubin, the Double Dribble podcast, after game one, I said, you got to start calling more Murray Boyles, like, right off the bat, like, this is over. It's not going to happen. I amended it halfway through this, the first half, and I said, you know what I'd actually do? And this is a little bit crazy, I would start him with Portal and Ben Shed and just go from there and just see if we can get more physical. Can we just be physical and bump and just bump the hell out of these guys constantly through the course of the game. Because nothing else they have really works.

A (48:33)

Because when you talk about it, we saw that lineup a little bit in the first half before they bench Portal, like this super big CMB Pearl group and just switch everything and create havoc. And I agree with you. Like, it's. It's hard to play against that group.

B (48:46)

Yeah, it's. It's physical. And I think the problem that they have ultimately is even when they put Barnes on. On Harden or Mitchell, they still were getting by him. Like, there's an element of, you know, like, they can't stay in front of James Harden, like, or Donovan Mitchell. And Mitchell's phenomenal with how quick he is and his attack and his explosiveness, I think is. Is the thing that's really a big problem. Even if they get quickly back, that doesn't fix it. It Gets worse. You know, you're in a worse position off defensively in that situation. Their problems, besides getting Ingram going offensively, they can't get any stops. Mobley's killing them. Strews killed them in Game one. You're getting crushed in every aspect. And it's really the thing that's so disheartening for this team because I look at it going like, I don't know what answers you have.

A (49:32)

Well, and they're trying to move the chess pieces around defensively. Like, you know, you'd mentioned Scotty Barnes often he's on Mobley and then they'll be like, you know what we're going to put. They started putting RJ Barrett on the Cav centers to switch everything and allow Scotty Barnes to guard James Harden or even Donovan Mitchell. But it's like one screen and he's not. And his ball denial has been awesome. He blew up a couple of possessions where they couldn't even get the ball to Donovan Mitchell or James Harden. But one screen, two screens, he's off and they have the matchup that they want. And you also lose his rim protection a little bit if he's out there guarding Harden or Mitchell. And it's just like they're just able to manipulate the matchups on both ends of the floor without any real concern. Like, there was one stretch of the game where they had Allen on Ingram and Mobley on Barnes because they just don't care. Like, if you're playing Mamu at center, we'll put anybody on Mamu. If we're playing Colin Murray Boyles at center, we'll put anybody on him. We can put anyone we want wherever you want. And you don't have to guard play to hurt us. So you want to run a Scotty Barnes, Jamal Shed pick and roll to go at Donovan Mitchell. We're just not going to care about Jamal Shed rolling to the rim or flaring out for threes the way we would for Quickly. So you can pin this on Quickly's out. And their offense would be better with him. Their defense would probably be a little worse. And their defense is just getting lit up. And to your we say this about everything every series so far. They just can't leave Ingram and Barrett like they're okay defenders. They're just at a quickness, tenacity disadvantage craft disadvantage against Harden and Mitchell. And if you leave those guys on an island against the Cleveland guards, they're going to lose that battle every time. And those guys are just going to light you up with Step back threes and drives and kicks and all that. It's another instance where I'm like, you just got to mix up different tactics. You got to trap them and live with them, passing it around a little bit. Trust the fact that you're one of the most frenetic, biggest, fastest rotating teams. You just can't let Donovan Mitchell be like, oh, it's just me and RJ Barrett. Like, you're. You're not going to win that way.

B (51:33)

You can't leave these guys on islands. They're not good enough defensively, and I think that's kind of the ultimate problem there. And then with Hurdle, who's, you know, been banged up, you're not really getting a lot of rim protection. Like, there's, it's. You've said it. There's nothing the Cavs fear about the Raptors right now on both ends of the floor.

A (51:52)

If we want to play two bigs, we're comfortable with places to put our two bigs on either end of the floor. We're mostly playing one big because we don't think you can score on us anyway, and we're comfortable putting the matchups any way that we want. And I do think the good sign for Cleveland, other than the fact that they're beating a worse team than they are, is they, despite not having a ton of time with their main guys together, they have a good sense of, like, who they are and who should play with who. So Harden and Allen are mostly attached. Mitchell and Mobley are mostly attached. Schroeder and Mitchell are mostly attached because they've concluded Schroeder and Harden is a little bit redundant. Therefore, Harden and Keone Ellis, when he plays, are mostly attached. Tyson is back in the rotation and if you have two or at least one of Tyson, Strus and Wade on the floor, you've got some decent size. And Wade has been really good guarding Brandon ingram, who was 3 of 15 last night in the Series. Like Cleveland has kind of found now they'll be tested. If they. Assuming they win the series and face a better opponent, they'll be tested, but they have, I think they have a good sense of who they are and the Raptors are kind of searching for, like, who they are. Even. Even putting Barrett on Jared Allen to start the second half or Barrett on Mobley when he's the only big man and saying, oh, we're going to switch with our on. On your screen and rolls like, the Cavs are like, oh, you're going to switch RJ Barrett onto our ball Handlers. Awesome. We'll just run and pick and roll. And it's been a. It's been a. Not the prettiest series either, I would say.

B (53:22)

No. And I don't think it's going to be. I think it's going to get a little ugly. But it's. Again, for the Cavs. This is great. Cool. We figured out we've kind of worked our way into these lineups and the rotations and who plays with who. And now they get to kind of sort of test all of these things through this series. And I think that's kind of a big point there. And then when you look at the defense, not just Wade, but everybody's kind of playing on Ingram, it's pretty impressive. And you could feel him kind of disheartened. That block Mobley had on him when he went baseline for the dunk. Oh, like his. I mean like to like first off. Holy cow. Like unbelievable play, you know, and, and I know he's. I'm glad he won defensive player of the year last year. Cause he ain't ever winning it again with. With as long as Wendy's around and. And plays 65. But I think the, the ultimate thing is you could feel Ingr deflated on that. And part of me too when I watched it back was, you know, like you could have gone a little harder. Like you needed to go into that. Needed to be a forceful drive. He thought. He just didn't think Mobley was going to get to it. And then he did. But again, it just goes back to they're not afraid of this team, so there's nothing. They're toothless.

A (54:32)

Bi had, I think it was in game one where he ran some kind of two man action and had Sam Merrill on him. And Sam Merrill's actually guarded him in the regular season as the primary guy at times to test out. He's. He's. And he's decent at it, but he got him at the nail and he didn't settle for a jump shot. He bulldozed through him and got a layup or near like just sort of took a big hard step to the rim and that's the force he needs to play with. And I actually thought Scotty Barnes brought all the force last night, like when he's got to dominate the matchups when Mobley is not on him, when it's Strus or Tyson. And I think he did that even when at Mobley for a big, you know, and one layup at one point in transition when he's got A cross match. He's just putting his head down and trying to score. I think he brought the requisite force last night. He was really good. Ingram was not good enough. And they just 22 turnovers last night and it felt like 15 of them were just Keystone cops blow like live ball. Where did you think you were passing it to? What happened there? Short circuiting their good possessions and then giving the Cavs steals to work with and you just can't get the turnovers were. I mean just laugh out loud bad

B (55:41)

by dribble off, dribble off your leg. Like all sorts of kind of things where you're looking at it going like they had a chance to keep this really kind of tight, especially in the first half. It's a different ball game. If they have eight less turnovers. They finished with 28, 22 and that gave up 22 points, you know, for the Cavs, like I think if they can kind of, if they're at like 15, maybe even up to like 17, they probably are in a tighter ball game and are able to press the Cavs a little bit more. But if you're just going to throw the ball around like that, you can't win. You can't win a regular season game with 20 something turnovers. How are you going to win playoff games with that number?

A (56:18)

So I picked Cavs in seven. I thought the Raptors would be able to give them a series with their size. I also thought quickly would play sooner than this and that turned out to be wrong. And I wondered how the Cavs would react if they got punched a little bit early. It doesn't look like they're going to get punched in this series. This again looks like a Cavs in five series. You go up to Toronto, you go up to LeBron and excuse me. And you split and you come back home and finish the job. And if that's the case, I think this becomes. I think Toronto joins Miami, who we're going to talk about later and maybe Golden State as sort of a very interesting off season team because they came into this playoffs thinking. I'm sure they came in and I talked about this with Jack Armstrong, like this might be kind of all this group is like they just don't add up to much more than the summer. Their parts are good, we've maximized it. Good defense, decent enough offense. Can we. We didn't beat any good teams this year. Our record against above.500 teams and elite teams is atrocious. If they go into the playoffs and they lose 41 and the games are like this. They have all their picks, they have all their swaps. They have a bunch. No, they have a dead money contract in portal that no one's going to want. But I think they become, I mean they've always been like a sneaky Giannis team to me. I think they'd become in play for a lot of stuff, but that's for another day. Cavs in five looks like the outcome. I overestimated the Raptors. Okay, let's move on to the number one versus number eight series, both of which resume tomorrow night, Wednesday. And the headliner here is obviously Orlando Detroit. Okay, welcome to the NBA season, Orlando Magic. It's great to see you. It took 84 games, I think, for us to see your full team play hard and play together, but boy, did they do that in Detroit in game one. And kind of shocking the Pistons. Part of it is they're healthy now. Franz is back, Black is back. They have their top seven, top eight intact and they've been missing that all year. Suggs is just shot out of a cannon, healthy and playing with reckless abandon in the playoffs with, with like, hey, if I get hurt, I get hurt. But like this is how he has to play. And they kind of took it to Detroit in the first game and it was, if you're a Piston fan, this was everything you worried about. Already happened in the first game of the playoffs, which maybe is good. Cade had an amazing game and nobody came along with him. JB Bickerstaff couldn't decide who to play down the stretch of the game. Asar Thompson only played 25 minutes because of the shooting issues. And it's like, all right, I guess we're going to play Dennis Jenkins and Cade a lot. Do we want to play Stewart enduring together a lot? Well, Kevin Herder, we need a little bit more of you. Asar Thompson, Ron Holland, a little bit less of you. Javante Green, almost none of them of you because of the shooting issues. It was everything kind of encapsulated in one game and maybe that's almost a relief for Detroit to just see it all happen. Game two at home for a number one seed that tends that loses at home is usually an easy win. I don't think this is going to be an easy win. I am expecting Detroit to bounce back and win this game because they're the number one seed and they should. But what, what are you looking for from the Pistons in terms of if you're, if you're Bicker staff and his coaching staff? Here's what I saw in game one from the Magic. Here's what I'm anticipating in game two and here's what I'm doing to counter all this stuff. Where's your head at?

B (59:28)

I think starting point is like, how do I get Jalen Duran going? I need to run my stuff. My first five possessions should be scripted. We're going to run our favorite plays for Jalen Dern and they did it. And give credit to Magic. Who Zach? You know, I've been. They've been the team I've been the hardest on all season. They did a great job defensively and they decided something that was most important. We're going to let Cade Cook. We're not going to let the other guys go off. We're going to switch Carter, we're going to switch our bigs on on decade and whatever happens, happens. But we're going to stay attached to Durant. Duran only got like, what was it, like four or five shots in the game. Like it wasn't even like he was that in the game. Like you almost forget about him offensively and if you're the Pistons, you can't allow that. Your first point has to be we're going to get Duran going. Maybe it's more double ball, double high ball screens. Maybe it's more putting them in situations where like, hey, we're going to cool. We're going to send multiple screens at you. It's screen, re screen then you know or confuse you. Yeah, flip. Flip the screens at the last second. Do everything you possibly can. But you need to get Duran going in all this because as great as a Cade's been phenomenal. But even when he was out, it was Duran that really helped kind of hold them up, him and Jenkins and I think it's important that they don't lose that. And that's got to be the first few plays right off the bat. My focus if I'm the Pistons is we're going to go. We're going to get Duran involved right away and that has to be the number one thing. That had to be the thing. We walked into the, the, the film room session yesterday talking about. That had to been the thing you're talking about in the coaches meeting. That had to be the thing that kept you up all night last night. If you were part of the coaching staff. You got to get him going.

A (61:20)

You got to praise Jamal Mosley and his staff who've taken a lot of deserved flack this year from me, from you, from everybody probably coaching for their jobs. It was a really smart game plan in game one. And the game plan was not just switch Cade and Duran to take Duran out of the game. You're not getting the lobs to Duran. We're not putting ourselves in rotation. It was the way they did it. You set the ball screen high enough, not only are we going to switch, we're going to go under the screen for Cade and switch at the same time. Which is unusual. And the reason that's important is because if you go under the Duran screen for him and you switch that guy onto Duran, you're taking away the role to the rim too. You don't have the thing where you're on top of him and he can slip to the rim. You're and now you're putting yourself into a mismatch on both sides. Carter was okay on Cade. Cade started to burn him a little bit late in the game. But here's the thing. If you're Cade Cunningham, you beat Wendell Carter off the dribble. If Asar Thompson and Jalen Duran or Javante Green and Jalen Duran or Isaiah Stewart and Jay, if two of the like shaky shooters or non shooters are on the floor, you can't get all the way to the rim. You're going to have to just make mid range jumpers and that's tough sledding. Now the other mismatch is why don't you give the ball to Jalen Duran in the post against the small guy on that switch, whoever it is, Suggs, whatever. And the reason is because A, they're fronting and B, they're just not going to guard any of the above mentioned non shooters. They tried it two or three times at the beginning of the game and they couldn't get them. The ball lobs were deflected, entry passes weren't made. Whatever. And to your point, I would expect this again in game two because it worked. And you've just got to be ready with the entry. Pass angles have to be better and more decisive. You've got to slip screens, you've got to set, you've got to run different. You just can't run this predictable high pick and roll every single time. To your point, run A, Duncan Robinson, Jalen Duran, stagger screen where one guy flares out, one guy slips, run empty side pick and rolls with Danis, Jenkins and Cade waiting to catch it on the weak side. You got to cut hard, you got to slip hard. That's the way you beat switches. You slip them, you run different kinds of actions. And I would expect Detroit to just be a lot more unpredictable. And that helps offset the shooting issues, which are always going to be there. So that would just be counter number one to me. Maybe it doesn't get Jalen during 25 points. It probably gets him 18. But he can't have. What did he have? Nine, eight. Eight points. He can't have eight.

B (63:41)

He's got to be more involved. He's just. You got to feel him in the game. Like, I just didn't feel him offensively when I was watching that game. And I think that's the important thing there. And then it goes back to what you're saying. Just change it up. If you become too predictable, it's easy for a defense, then, you know, we. We know we're going to see this multiple times.

A (64:00)

Cool.

B (64:01)

This is how we're going to defend it. We know what we're going to do. And then that allows you guys to instinctively to make plays, and then it opens up opportunities for steals and things like that. You know, there was some smart plays defensively, a lot of it from Suggs just flying all over the place on the defensive side of the floor. Like it was an impressive game plan. And again, coaching staff I've killed all year. That was impressive defensively. And this is the magic defense we've kind of been expecting all year that we just didn't really get.

A (64:29)

Welcome to the season. I mean, like, I joked about this with Bill. I was like, they won 45 games this year. Their over under was 50 and a half. I took the over. Now, you could explain it away with Franz missed a bunch of time. Suggs missed a bunch of time. They always have guys that missed a bunch of time. Their young guys haven't really progressed. Like, we see no Jet, no Jace Richardson, some of De Silva who's been fine. They just didn't play with this level of ferocity in the regular season. And it wasn't just on defense. It was on offense, too. Like they were running their shit. It would be like, Franz, pick and roll at the top, swing it to Bane coming off the pin, down on the left side, empty side, and he's full blast, full speed ahead. There was a split action. They ran with Franz, and it might have been Paolo, but I don't think it was Paolo. It was a split action off the ball. Two guys, Franz and another guy, coming together and breaking apart the action that the warriors made famous. And it was switchable. Like, the defenders involved were Tobias Harris and Ashard Thompson. I think easily switchable. And they didn't switch they actually read it well. Franz slipped to the rim. Tobias Harris was on Franz and stuck with him. But Franz cut with such force and had enough space to go full speed at the rim that he got a layup out of it. Anyway, we just didn't see this team. And I was like, is this. This team has not won a playoff series together? Are they the first team? Are they the least accomplished flip to switch team in the history of the NBA? Is this like what we're seeing? I don't understand. Where was this team all year?

B (65:55)

It's unbelievable. Their offense, like I part of my. My morning regiment this, this morning was get up and watch their offense just to go through their offense because I don't didn't believe all of those things that I saw. And it was impressive across the board. They ran all sorts of actions. They stayed with their actions all game. There wasn't a ton of just ISO. There wasn't a ton of ton of just, hey, even if we're going to give Paolo a post up or get him an ISO, it's out of an action that gets the defense moving. Maybe we get a switch going to ISO. And then what would happen is the Pistons would load up, overload too much on. On Paolo. And then with his vision, I mean, he had the pat the skip pass to the corner where two guys rotated to. I think it was Suggs in the corner. Then they kicks it automatically to Black and it was a clean three. We had the same.

A (66:46)

I should have mentioned. AB is healthy too. He's a big part of their team.

B (66:49)

Yeah, I mean, and that happened earlier in the game in the first quarter, except they missed the three. But the way the ball was moving and hopping, even when it looked like it was Apollo ISO, he was still finding guys. There was a baseline cut from Anthony Black. He had one from. He found Da Silva early on. Like, there's so many different little things that they did. Offense, this was the team I've been waiting for. Like, thank you. This is what I thought we were going to get at the start of the season. Offensively, everybody was involved. Franz's start of the fourth quarter, part of that, that screening action you talked about where he got the layup, he had a bunch of little play, little runs in that fourth quarter that got them going and open things up for them. Like if they can consistently do this, like, this is going to be a real tough series for the Pistons.

A (67:34)

Normally you have to like win a championship or get to the finals or in the wolves case, the conference finals before you Become a flip to switch team before you can even say to yourself, I'll flip the switch when we get there. The Magic haven't won a playoff series since 2010. The Orlando Magic have not won a playoff series in 16 years. And it's like, did they, did it take them? Like, were they this confident they were going to beat Charlotte in the eighth seed, that they just were waiting playing possum this entire time? That doesn't make any sense. The one exception to your point about the offense, if you watch the last two minutes of the first half now, thought this was telling in an encouraging way for Orlando fans. They began to lose the plot on offense a little bit. And there was one possession with two minutes left. Somebody took a bad shot and Paolo reacted with like anger. He's in the left corner, you can see him be like, oh, come on guys, we gotta do better. And then there was another possession after that where Bane and Suggs ran a pick and roll. And you're like, well, that's a weird pick and roll combination. Where are Paolo and Franz? The answer is not involved. And Bane took like a 20 footer from the right corner over. No, no switch like regular matchup. And Franz, crashing the glass at the same time is screaming. And it's inaudible what he says, but he's clearly angry about the shot selection. And if I'm a Magic fan, I'm like, they're dialed in enough to realize one or two possessions like that is worth being pissed about. Now, if I were a Pistons fan, I'd be optimistic for all the reasons I said before about what happens. Number one, seeds. Number two, Palo made more than his usual share of contested two point jump shots. And number three, I thought they played a bad defensive game in a lot of fundamental ways. Like you overload on Palo's ISOs from 25ft away. First of all, I don't think you need to do that. Second of all, two or three different occasions, they just lost sight of the very first layer of cutters underneath that. Wendell Carter Jr. Got a dunk, Anthony Black got a backdoor cut. Just very basic mistake. There were misreads in pick and roll coverage. Now this is where Duran's inexperience shows. Like there was one Franz pick and roll where he thought they were going to switch, I think. And the defender set up to send him to his weak hand or send him to his left hand actually. Yeah, his weekend. And there was nobody there. He just had a clear lane to the rim and there was a dunk like that in the fourth quarter it's like guys, they looked a little frazzled to me by the moment. I expect them to play much better defensively in game two. But this is going to be. I picked Detroit in five because I thought, all right, Cade's back. This team's so eager for this. The Magic have been a mess all season. If I had to repick it now, I will stick with Detroit because I'm going to imprison myself to my pick. But I would say this is a seven game series.

B (70:17)

I had Detroit in six just because I thought Orlando's physicality was still something. The size of it was going to be something to at least can cause problems for them. But I want to go back to the cutter because you were talking about. There's one play in particular that, that stuck out to me. It was I think late in the or middle of the fourth quarter. But Anthony Black cuts. Jenkins has no idea. He cut from the slot right to the block and that pulled Jalen Duran and then that led to from the weak side when Duran got pulled first. Duncan Robinson slid over to take Wendell Carter. And this is the play you're talking about where I think he got the dunk and then immediately switched out with Jenkins taking him over and the ball hits Carter and goes. You can't have those mistakes. So those are fixable as stuff. You're going to sit in film going like, come on man, you know better than this. You know this stuff. Their, their mistakes were fixable. I, I, I am excited to see how they respond, but it's the weight and the pressure of being the 1 seed now. Right? Like this is going to be interesting now. This is, what are they going to deal with when they're going into this? How are they going to handle, hey, we blew game one, we're the 1 seed. We're not supposed to do this. Like we gotta be better than this. They didn't win a series last year. This is a new experience for them as well. And they gotta lock in into how they're gonna kind of figure this stuff out as they go through it. And then the other thing, Zach, I totally forget, they haven't won a home playoff game in years.

A (71:45)

That's an unbelievable stat that I forgot that they lost all of them against the Knicks last year. And beyond that I'm just interested in who plays and for how long. Like to me, the other interesting wrinkle in all the minutes and trying to balance the shooter, the non shooters with the weaker defenders and all that. Kara Lavert did not have a very good year this year for them. Four minutes is just like, wow, for a team that needs secondary ball handling. Like, they only could find four minutes for Caris LeVert. That's. That's. I mean, and it's not like I'm sitting here being like, well, Caris LeVert's awesome. He should play 30 minutes. It's. I understand it. He's not been good. I think they need to at least let him stretch out a little bit more than that.

B (72:24)

But.

A (72:24)

But. Okay, let's move on quickly to Phoenix. Oklahoma City. A series that I do not think will go seven games. And I would not think it would go seven games even if Mark Williams, Grayson Allen and Jordan Goodwin, we're all healthy. Just a textbook Oklahoma City. Oh, you thought our defense was awesome. Watch our playoff defense. You won't get a clean shot the entire goddamn game. And we're going to out turn over you by 10 and run it down your throat. And I don't even know, like, what there is really to say about. About that game and about this matchup. It's just. Phoenix just doesn't have enough. We knew they didn't have enough, and it was an avalanche of defense in game one.

B (73:02)

Well, I mean, I. It was so clear and evident, like, at halftime. I did a video for offside and basically is all live ball turnovers that killed them, right? The. The Suns would have been.

A (73:14)

That's every team. That's every team.

B (73:16)

Every team. Every team. But in particular against okc, you want to get them going, just turn the ball.

A (73:23)

That's every team. Against Oklahoma City, it's like, we can. We can sit here and say, don't turn the ball against. Over against Oklahoma City, they are incredible at getting their hands on the ball. They get a little bit of leeway from the refs, I think, to play physically because they are so physical. And like, if you can solve that mystery of, like, how to turn the ball over 10 times a game, 12 times a game, someone do it, because no one can do it.

B (73:45)

But even if you're. If you're trapped in the corner, just chuck the damn thing out of bounds and go set your defense. Like, you're better off almost in that situation than trying to find a way out of it. But the swarming aspect of that team is just too much. And then it's the other things that kill you. You know, the. The free throws at the end of the half that lead to J. Will dropping a gorgeous pass to Chet for the three going into halftime. No pressure on the ball, on the passer at all, on the inbounder and things like that. All the small things that you're trying to figure out. At the end of the day, this Sun's team is just kind of drawing dead. Their offensive style is very ISO heavy, and I think that's a problem against the Thunder. Like the Thunder defense want that, right? They. When they have a hard time with teams, it's teams that move cut, get the blunder going, get the ball flying around the court, that. Then you can put their defense in tougher spots. But when you're playing, you're playing right into their hands. When it's screen and roll, Devin Booker, ISO screen and roll, Dylan Brooks, ISO screen and roll, Jalen Green ISO like that, those are problems for you. And they just don't have enough. And they don't have the front court death at all. Even with Mark Williams, they just don't have anything.

A (74:54)

I. I do think at least Mark Williams, they'd have to be nominally concerned about him rolling to the rim for lobs, his verticality. Iguidaro is a very good player. They're not concerned about him at all. They'll switch on him and they don't care. Mali watch was in the rotation, then out of the rotation. They're playing Heywood Highswith at center. That's not going to work. I just. There's just. There was just no airspace anywhere. And you're. For Devin Booker, it's like, all right, Lou Dort's guarding me well, he'll come out of the game at some point or maybe I can get a switch. And it's like, oh, no, no, it's Caruso. It's Kayson Wallace, A.J. mitchell. Guy's kind of annoying. This is really just not great. And I do. I thought they actually had as good a defensive game plan as you can, which is we're just going to load everything towards Shay and make him pass the ball and make him take tough shots. And he took tough shots. I think he was, what was he, 5 of 18 or something that good. And make the shooters who are okay, shoot threes and like, it was an okay game plan. I like with. With Iguidoro, I think they could try to switch everything and stay out of rotation completely. They're not a team that plays a lot of zone. I don't. They just don't have any answers, and that's fine. It's. They're the eighth seed and they're playing Oklahoma City.

B (76:02)

It's still a win of a season. For them. Right. Like they made the playoffs, which is something a lot of us didn't have. And I think that's a, that's a big win for them.

A (76:11)

Yeah. I have no other notes. Other. Well, my other notes would be Jalen Williams looked awesome. And the lineup I keep waiting for the Thunder to use and maybe they just don't want to use it because they just have too many options is Shea, Mitchell, Caruso, JDub, Chet. And they had four of those five guys on the floor in different combinations a lot. But obviously you have no Wallace, no Door. They have a plethora of options. But I'm just keeping my eye out and it's a little, it played that lineup plays a little smaller with Mitchell and in place of one of those guys. But it's just something I'm waiting on. But like whether they play one big, two bigs, they just looked unbelievable. All three of their bigs are, I mean Chet's going to make all NBA Hartenstein's awesome big. Jalen Williams is awesome. No notes. All right, let's take one more break. We'll do a little news. This episode is brought to you by Men's Wearhouse. So you've looked at all the data, you've looked at your lineup and yep, you need to freshen up your wardrobe. So check out Men's Wearhouse. They've got you covered for every occasion with a huge variety of clothing and styles. From tailored clothing like suits, sports coats, dress shirts, tuxes for more formal events to casual clothing like polo shirts, shorts and jeans for everyday wear. The Men's Wearhouse experts can help you find the right look while their on site tailors guarantee your clothes have the right fit for your body. Men's wearhouse has over 600 locations nationwide. They are here and nearby when you're ready to love the way you look. This episode is brought to you by New Era. You know how some eras of the NBA just hit different as the official cap of the NBA? New Era is bringing back the good stuff with NBA Hardwood Classics collection. Vintage logos, timeless icons, killer throwback energy. No matter what hat style you prefer. New Era has them all. We're talking 5,950 fitteds or adjustable styles like the 940A frames and 970s sporting classics like the old school Vancouver Brizzlies, the Bulls, the Lakers. All the stuff that you remember from your childhood. If you're my age, old school roots, modern drip. Visit neweracap.com to shop now and use one time code ringer for 20% off your first order. Exclusions apply. All right, big coaching news this morning. Billy Donovan is stepping down as the Bulls head coach. The Bulls announced it today he had at least one more year left on his deal. I think Shams reported that it was an option that he's turning down. This is really interesting because I don't know where he's going to go. I do know that coaches typically don't just walk away from money without money waiting for them on the other end. I think Billy Donovan's a really good coach. I think his best quality has been his adaptability to all sorts of different rosters from Oklahoma City with Durant to Oklahoma City with three guards of Schroeder and Chris, Paul and Shea back in the day to the Bulls, whatever the hell this is. And now we just finally reached a point where they're like, I just can't adapt to this, whatever this is. My adaptability powers have run out. And I just think there's going to be a lot of interesting coaching dominoes coming. Portland, that job is. I think they're being disrespectful to Tiago Splitter right now, sniffing around all these coaches. But whatever. Orlando is now up 10 people. Coaching agents have been sort of waiting for that job to open. We'll see. Milwaukee is open. Dallas, like the Jason Kidd stuff. Does he want to be there? Like, what's going to happen there? Taylor Jenkins is the biggest, I think, most sought after name on the market. He's already interviewed in Milwaukee according to the Athletic. Eric name had that yesterday. Who's willing to wait around to see what jobs open up. I think Billy Donovan's a really good coach. This didn't surprise me, but it just. The domino is starting to fall and where they fall and maybe he doesn't even want to coach in the NBA. Maybe he wants to coach in college or the UNC stuff. That job's been filled by Michael Malone and now it's just full on reset, I guess for the Bulls, who have Josh Giddey and Amantas Buzelis and a bunch of cap space. And they have, they have Portland's pick coming up in this draft along with their own pick and Noah Senge who didn't play at all really this year with injury like, okay, well, good luck to everybody in Chicago. It's going to be a long haul for you.

B (80:19)

The situation in Chicago, it's going to be a young, assisting, up and coming assistant coach type situation. Open to find some of that Charles Lee Magic with that stuff. The roster doesn't have the same magic capable capabilities. One name you forgot to mention too is we don't know what's going to happen with Steve Kerr and what's.

A (80:37)

Yes, he's. We're going to talk about the warriors in a second. But yeah, he had, you know, you know, pretty like emotional end of the season.

B (80:46)

Yeah, almost like even Draymond felt like it was a little bit of a goodbye. From the stuff I've read, I have a wild conspiracy theory that I saw kind of floating around. The rumor was that the lacomb family is pretty close to the Florida coach because he used to coach at University of Florida, University of San Francisco. He gets the job and then Billy Donovan goes back to Florida.

A (81:12)

Well, that's interesting, Mo. Certainly the only thing is, if Steve Kerr were to leave, and Bill and I have been talking about this for, I don't know, five months now, it's been obvious he didn't have a contract extension, that this was in play. You'd have to imagine that. Do you really go bridge to the next era with a new college coach or do you're like, well, Steph Curry is still here. Draymond Green has a player option. He might still be here. Jimmy Butler is recovering from a torn acl. He might still be here. Probably will still be here. Christoph Sporzingis, we might be able to resign him on the cheap because he's not been available enough and it looked like he'd be a good fit with us. He might be here as long as Steph Curry is there. They're going to try to win, and they're going to try to win with experienced guys. Like, I expect them again to go all in for Giannis. If that fails, I expect them again to call on Kawhi Leonard. If that fails, or maybe if it doesn't, I expect them to try to get LeBron James. And you can laugh at that all you want because they're not going to win a championship with those players. I don't think they think they will. I think their whole dream in Golden State is can we get to a point where it's 2, 2 in the second round us in San Antonio, because San Antonio, Oklahoma City are going to be so goddamn good for so many more years that it's just not realistic that, like, yeah, we're going to make the finals again, right? Even. Even Denver has probably like another two to three years of super elite play with Jokic and Murray and maybe more. Who knows? They've got some cap issues, obviously, but for the warriors, like, can we just catch lightning in a bottle and give the Steph era like a true. Not we're in the play in and we're scrounging to get up into the eighth seed, but a true. Like, hey, we won a round like we have before, like we did last year, and we're. It's two. Two in the second round against the powerhouse and we're just, we're in it. And I. That's what I would expect. And I don't know if you hire a college coach to do that, but maybe you do. I have no. I have no idea what's going to happen. I hope Steve Kerr stays. They seem to all hope Steve Kerr stays, too.

B (83:16)

Yeah, I want Steve Kerr to stay. I'm just saying. My, my antenna went up when the Billy Donovan news broke. Going like a secret because it was right after I had just saw the report. It was from Kevin o' Connor talking about Todd golden, the coach of Florida. And I just thought, like, oh, well, maybe he's going to go back home to Florida and maybe he knows something we don't. Ultimately, I think. I think Kerr stays. I think this is too fun of a opportunity to finish it out with Curry.

A (83:41)

I actually had a conspiracy theorist in the. I don't know, let's say the agent ranks speculating with me a month or so ago that maybe if Steve Kerr actually stepped down, that this is going to blow you away, that Tibbs would be the answer in Golden State because he is a veteran. Win now, coach. He knows Jimmy Butler really well. I was like, that doesn't seem. Boy, what a change that would be from like, we're playing music and practice, we're all loosey goosey and here comes Tibbs. I don't see that one happening. But you're right, there's going to be a lot of dominoes to fall. And I just would be surprised if Billy Donovan didn't have an inkling of something that was going to come up. And Taylor Jenkins is certainly going to have his pick of stuff. So we'll see the other coaching news. Jordy Fernandez got an extension and so did his entire staff in Brooklyn. And you know what? Good job, Nets. That's what you do when you give a coach a shit situation. Jordy Fernandez will probably never be over.500 in his entire career as long as he coaches, because he had this hung on him for two seasons and he's done well. The Nets were too competitive for their own good last year. They were on course to be maybe too competitive for their own good this year. So they had to start sitting veterans with fake injuries and playing all the young guys and all this. None of their five first round picks will make an all rookie team this year. And be that as it may, this is what you do. You say here, this is what Utah did with Will Hardy. If we think you're good, here's job security and here's years of job security. And the next thing that you do, and this is where the rubber always meets the road is when the team actually gets good. Assuming it happens at some point, you give this guy a chance to coach the good version of the team and not just hey thanks for coaching these young guys up. Here comes a 65 year old who's won in the league before. So good on the nets. And can we talk one last bit of off season news?

B (85:26)

Yes.

A (85:27)

The team that I don't. I think we said goodbye to a little too quickly is Miami. I think just a really strange end to their season in a lot of different ways and a team that just if there was any sort of, you know, hey, we've come out of the play in to make the finals to make long playoff runs before maybe this team can do that. I mean that was wishful thinking to begin with. Now even the most cockeyed optimist has to just understand this is just who we are. This is what the Tyler hero, Bam Adebayo and an okay supporting cast team is. And yeah, we've got some upside like Khalil where I'm higher on Khaleel where the consensus Hawkeye's had a great year, he might win six man of the year. Yakachonis, the young point guard I think looks like he's going to be a good player. But like there's just. This team is not. There's no finals upside anywhere on this team. And I think this is the come to Jesus moment for the Heat to know that. I also was shocked that they just gave up playing Hero and Powell together completely. One made the all star team this year. One is a franchise mainstay who made the all star team last year. I just, I understand the defensive limitations, the overlap in skills to some degree. I don't. They actually don't play very similarly on offense at all. But whatever. To just decide we can't play them together for six minutes a game when they're two of the four most talented players on your team is really shocking to me and hints at just something under the hood. There wasn't right. I would be. I don't think both those guys are going to be on the team next year. I think there's a chance that neither of them are on the team next year. And all of this is to say the way that ended for Miami. I just wonder. This is a team that missed on Dame, that missed on Durant, and that is so far missed on Giannis. They have up to four first round picks to trade or they can get four first round picks to trade with some finagling of protections and all that. I just wonder if this is the year Pat Riley is like, we're just doing it, guys. Like, we're throwing everything we can at Giannis or whoever. And I don't really care what the outlay is. I'm just tired. Like I'm tired of being mediocre. And at least Giannis makes us interesting. The question I would have for them is like, let's just say they trade, there's a world where they can trade Hero, where maybe they have to put in Hawkeyes, maybe not all the picks, all the swaps for Giannis and then they use Bird rights to re sign Powell. So they keep Wiggins and Powell. So I've got Wiggins, Powell, Bam, Davion, Mitchell, Giannis, Yakachonas is still around. Jovic, who again, like, talk about a strange thing. We extend him for $16 million a year. We don't play him at all. Like, that's a pretty good team. There's also a world in which you lose Wiggins and Hero and Powell somewhere along the way to free agency. Powell's a free agent, you got to trade one or both, whatever happens. And you're left with a team that's like Bam and Giannis, which is not an awesome fit. Like talent can beat fit, but that's not a great fit. You're gonna have to work at it. And not, not quite enough else to make you think like, yeah, we can beat Boston and you know, Detroit and Cleveland. I will say the east is maybe a little bit more, is definitely a little bit more in flux than the West. Like if there's a, if there's a conference where you're like looking at the top and being like, well, maybe one of those teams makes a salary move. You know, Philly's never healthy. Is Harden a long term fit for blah, blah, blah, it's the east versus Oklahoma City and San Antonio in the West. But I do think if you do that for Miami, you risk having traded your entire medium term future for a team that's good and certainly exciting and Certainly will placate a fan base that's hungry for a superstar to actually get. Like, for your to actually get a superstar, but probably not good enough. And also the superstar you traded everything for is 31 and injured all the time and about to sign a gigantic contract extension. Like, that's a. That's a dangerous proposition for Miami, as exciting as it is. And I wonder if there would ever be like a Pat Riley wants to do it because he's old and he's sick of this versus look, we're actually kind of in a good spot asset wise right now. We're recouping our draft picks. We know, we know we're not good enough, but can we just sort of keep making little moves and then instead of everything for Giannis, maybe we can like pick off a really good player. I'm just making this up from the Knicks as part of a Giannis trade for them. Maybe we can pick off another disgruntled star who's a little bit younger. Maybe everything goes haywire in Houston and we can revisit Durant again for like a much cheaper price. There's other things we can do. Maybe like Julius Randle or someone. I'm just making a Nas Reed like somebody from Minnesota because they break up in certain ways. Like. But I do find them to be a really. Even more so than Golden State because I just, I know what, I'm pretty confident what Golden State's going to do. I find Miami the most fascinating maybe off season team.

B (90:36)

Yeah. I mean, because they're at the crossroads and it's trying to figure out if we're going to throw everything in to get Giannis. And I agree with you, like making that trade for Giannis. There's still not going to be a championship caliber team. I still think they'd need a lot of work and everything that they would give up in the process to get Giannis puts you in a bad position going forward. And then the massive contract that you're going to sign him to now you're just in a tough position. I understand Pat wants to win right now with everything, but I think ultimately you got to stay the course. I think I would go along the route you're talking about. Let me see where I can pick and choose and start to find the right moves and make the smart deals here at this point instead of just going for the big fish because they've chased the big fish. Hasn't worked out. I don't even know if they would

A (91:23)

have, but I, I guess it hasn't worked out because they haven't gotten any. The one they did get was Jimmy Butler and they got it in such a sort of distressed and manipulated scenario that they didn't have to give up much to get him. And it's been hard. That's a very hard situation to replicate as evidenced by the fact that they haven't been able to replicate it.

B (91:46)

Yeah, and I think that's the thing. It's like when I say getting the big fish, it's giving up your entire asset covered to go get him. And I think that's kind of the problem where they're at. Whereas I'd want to see them stay the. See if you could find a way to pick off Trey Murphy or it's a great, you know, you know, or, or just where can you start picking around the margins. You're not ready enough, your roster is not built enough. Where when I get this guy, we're going to be a championship contender in the Eastern Conference. You know, Boston's still going to be Boston next year, most likely, you know, Detroit, who knows what happens. But still up and coming team, I think across the board with everything you have, you're not ready to be a championship team. That's an all in move for a team that maybe gets you to the second round, depending on what you have.

A (92:35)

This is not what a portion of Heat fans are just. They're just tired of this and they want to take a moonshot and I understand that. And what we're saying is not going to be popular among that and maybe they'd take the moonshot. I don't know. A couple other things need to be said. Number one, Bill pitched the BAM to Charlotte trade on Sunday. I just don't think Miami is in that kind of headspace. That's a full on rebuild trade and it's trading a guy who they've been very upfront about. Like this guy is what we represent and he is Heat culture. He is us. And looming over all of these decisions for every team are the lottery rules and if the lottery and when are they going to be implemented? Are they actually going to take a vote next month to change the rules for the 2027 lottery? If so, if you're a team like Miami and you're in the middle, the middle becomes profitable enough relative to tanking that I think you're okay if you're like just a good team that's tweaking on the fringes and you're definitely not going to bottom out if the odds are against it. You never want to do that anyway. I think it makes you a little bit more likely to say, well, if our choices are bottom out, moonshot or stick in the middle and try to tweak. I think if the, if you're confident the lottery odds are going to change, I think for Miami and some other teams it mitigates toward, you know, let's just stay the quad. I mean, forget the Clippers, they don't even control their picks. But I so I think that is an interesting thing that's kind of hovering over all of these big picture decisions. But yeah, the heat, that was a, I mean, Charlotte, we said goodbye to them. I think they're just in a great spot. I don't expect much, much significant action for them in either direction. I think you let this marinate a little bit. Miami is the one that's along with we mentioned Toronto and Golden State is is super interesting. All right, Mo, we got three more playoff games tonight.

B (94:23)

Man, I'm excited. It's the best time of year, man. This is when we get like Zach, I watched the Denver, Minnesota game again right after the Denver, Minnesota game. Like it was so exciting and fun to watch. Like I wanted to watch it again. This is the fun time right now.

A (94:38)

It is. It is the fun time. It's just so much basketball just mainlining all the basketball. Mo Takeil, if you want to know what happened in the game, listen to his podcast with Jared Dubin offside. Mo, you're the best. Thank you for coming on, buddy.

B (94:52)

Thank you for having me.

A (94:55)

All right, that's it for today's episode of the Zach Lowe Show. We'll be back on Thursday with more playoff bonanza basketball. Who knows what other off season storylines will have emerged by then. Thank you to Mo Takeil. Thank you as always to Mike, Billy and Jonathan on production. Thanks to you all for listening to and or watching the Zach Lowe Show. We will see you again on Thursday. Buckle up. The first round is in full swing. 21 or over in President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over in President D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call one in Hunter Gambler or 1-1-800-MY-RESET. Call 1-888-78-97777 or visit ccpg.org chatincut or is it mdgamblinghelp.org and Maryland Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. Seven support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-Hopeny or text Hopeny in New York. For Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7867.