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- [00:00]
Zach Lowe
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- [00:26]
Kevin Pelton
Foreign.
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Zach Lowe
Up on the Zach Low show the trade deadline has come and gone. We had all the blockbusters Tuesday, but we still got a lot to talk about. The Clippers made another super fascinating trade of Vita Zubots is a pacer. We'll break down the mechanics of that trade. Why? It's a risk for both, but high reward for for both. Really fun trade. Anthony Davis is a Wizard. What? What happened? I haven't talked about that yet. The Wolves made a good trade. I like that Wolves trade. We'll get to that. The Bulls. What are the Bulls doing? John Morant didn't get traded. Giannis didn't get traded. Talk about what that means. Who feels a little jilted? Who doesn't? What's going to happen in the summer? And then just a bunch of like warriors did nothing, spurs did nothing, Rockets did nothing. And some minor trades that went flying around. Lots to talk about, lots to digest. Kurt Goldsberry is going to help us do that. And Kevin Pelton, the machine from ESPN.com is going to come and give his winners and losers. We're going to riff on that fun trade deadline. Some good deals, some stinkers, some confusing things. And no Giannis Antetokounmpo trade win for the Milwaukee Bucks and their fans. That's all coming up on the Zach Lowe Show. This episode of the Zach Lowe show is brought to you by State Farm. Life's better when you've got the right help. Think of that perfect pass that sets everything up. Smooth, effortless. Just what your team needed. That's the kind of assist State Farm offers, whether it's online or in person. State Farm's your teammate when you need help making your next play. State Farm with the assist. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by State Farm. Welcome to the Zach Lowe Show. The trade deadline has passed. Giannis is still a Buck. John Morant is still a Grizzly. The Clippers made the two most interesting trades at the deadline. Some demons did some smart stuff. Some teams did some dumb stuff. Some teams did some confusing stuff. We're going to talk about all of that coming up. But first I have to tell you about another live show. The Zach Lowe show is coming live to the Brooklyn Paramount, New York City, the greatest city in the world. We are bringing the Zach Lowe show live to you, the Brooklyn Paramount on Monday, March 16th. Tickets will go on sale this coming Monday, February 9th at noon. Go to theringer.comevents through for details. March 16th Brooklyn Paramount bring your family, bring your friends, don't bring your pets. The Zach Lowe show live March 16th Brooklyn Paramount tickets the Ringer.com events starting on February 9th. Kurt Goldsberry is here. What's up?
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Kurt Goldsberry
What is up? Zach Lowe. We are in a new era of the season.
- [03:24]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, we get to watch new teams play with new toys. It's all, it's all very exciting. Look, Giannis was the headliner. He didn't get traded. We will talk about that. I have not addressed the ad trade yet. We will talk about that. But this Clippers thing is just too juicy. I want to start here because it's the most recent big trade. The Clippers trade a Vita Zubots to the Indiana Pacers who we talked about earlier in the year. Were they going to use the trade deadline to grab the center of next year's team? And they did. And the Clippers got premium, premium, premium picks from the Pacers in exchange for zhu, who has three years left on a great contract. They got a 2029 unprotected Pacers pick. They also got Ben Matheran, low flyer on Ben Mather. And maybe he stays, maybe he doesn't. But most importantly and most interestingly, Mr. Goldsberry, they get the Pacers 2026 first round pick in this ballyhooed starry draft. If it falls at number 5, 6, 7, 8 or 9. If it's 1 to 4, the pacers keep it. If it's 10 to 30, the pacers keep it. Because the Clippers don't want that. They only want the they want. And there was a lot of haggling over this. I was told can we do 1 to 2? Can we do 1 to 3? 1 to 4 is where the line is drawn. That is such a juicy pick. And right now, Mr. Goldsberry, the Pacers have the third worst winning percentage in the NBA. If they finish at third, that would give them a 52% chance of that pick landing in the top four. And they keep that pick. I'm going to assume that's what they want. Maybe they don't care. Maybe they would just like the obligation to Extinguish or they view that as a happy like downside or something. If they get to the fourth or fifth worst spot in the standings that drops to a 45% chance that the Pacers keep the pick and a 55% chance that the Clippers get the pick if they win their way all the way to the sixth worst record in the NBA. This is the precipitous one. 37% chance they keep the pick. 63% chance they send it to the Clippers. If I'm gaming this out, all the hype I've heard about this draft, I'm going to assume that the Pacers want to maximize their chances of landing a top four pick in the draft. And we are set up not only for a fascinating trade which we will talk about. The tankery down the stretch of this season is going to be beyond outrageous. We have the Wizards who owe a top eight collect protected pick to the Knicks. I think, I think I'm getting word. Anthony Davis just got stuck in the elevator doors in his new building in Washington D.C. they close faster than than he expected. He's got a bruise on his arm. He's out for three months. Utah top eight protected pick to Oklahoma City. They just got Jaren Jackson Jr. How the hell are they going to do this with all these other teams losing? Indiana, we just talked about the Pelicans, the Kings and the Nets remain the Pelicans, the Kings and the Nets rip to the illustrious Cam Thomas era on the Nets. The Mavericks, they kind of are a little tanky. The Grizzlies, they're kind of a little tanky and then you got we'll get there. But like the Bulls, whatever the Bulls did is like they're kind of taking the season but it's just way too late for them to catch any of these teams. And the Clippers are getting a little tanky. Although Darius Garland will hopefully play soon. But they don't control their pick. So who gives a crap. It's going to be a tank tastic end to the season. But let's start with the Pacers and the Clippers because this is a reminder. Pacers have been out of sight, out of mind. This team was a game from winning the NBA championship. They're getting Halliburton back. 5050 shot at a top four pick and they dress. They just addressed the biggest hole on their roster in the wake of Miles Turner leaving for Milwaukee and that disastrous wave and stretch sign combination that the Bucks did in getting a really good two way center in a Vita Zubots on a good deal that's like 6, $7 million cheaper than miles Sterner. And you're looking at Halliburton, Nemhardt, Niesmith, siakam, Zubot, starting five, McConnell, Toppin. People forgot about Obi Toppin. Yeah, people big time player off the bench for them. Jay Huff slides in as a backup five. Then you have like these young guys who other than Furphy, haven't really developed the way that you hope. But you got Ben Shepard, Walker, Furphy, they're a little too close to the tax to use the mid level exception. But I love this trade for the Pacers. They paid a dear price for it. The Jazz did make a run at, at, I'm sorry, the Pacers did make a run at Walker Kessler, but I don't think they offered the Jazz quite what they offered the Clippers for Zubots. I, I, I think it's worth it because this team comes in next year absolutely loaded. And I think this is a super fun trade and I think it's great value for the Clippers. What do you think?
- [08:27]
Kurt Goldsberry
Oh, man. So many thoughts. I love this player for the Pacers. Perfect fit. I love this guy. He's been one of a lot of our favorite, like sort of most unheralded center for, for years. So it's going to be great to, to watch him play in a, in a better basketball environment than the Clippers have given him for a while. And yeah, the, the protections thing annoys me. Like they, they have to the, the too many protections, Zach. Like if it's a prime number under 19, the Clippers get it. This one, it's going to make the lottery fascinating, by the way.
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Zach Lowe
I mean, I just, you know, I love the lottery. I, I just, it's just stupidest, most exciting thing. I can't wait.
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Kurt Goldsberry
Yeah, but now you're gonna have, you know, like whatever's left of the Clippers front office and I'm sure we're going to talk about that in a second and then we're going to have the, the this moment where the Pacers are either going to get somebody else like a Cam Boozer or a Darren Peterson. And it's fascinating too because most of the draft experts look at this draft as four great pieces and then good after that, it's not a huge drop off, but four really, really solid prospects. So that protection that I'm sure you said they negotiated, that's not a small.
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Zach Lowe
Part of this, that's the whole negotiation is how much protection is on the top end. Of that pick.
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Kurt Goldsberry
And then does it convey, does it turn into two seconds? I don't know. But that's an electric moment for the, for the lottery.
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Zach Lowe
No, I'll tell you what it does. If the pick goes, if the Pacers keep that pick this year, it becomes an unprotected 2031 pick, which not a bad consolation prize. No, it's smart for the Clippers to say we don't want your unprotected 2027. You're still going to be really good. Then give us the a further out one. So I think regardless of what happens in the lottery, the Clippers got very good value. But obviously five to nine, that's a spot where they think they can get a real player.
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Kurt Goldsberry
And if you talk to scouts like it's a deep top 10 draft, the people love 10 players in this draft. Four have set themselves apart, but there's not a big cliff there. The Clippers are the more interesting part to me. I mean the Pacers are competent. This was a gap year. They've set themselves up for a potential lottery pick and Zubot replacing Miles Turner, they've been competent here. I'm excited to watch them play basketball at full strength next year. But Zach Lowe, my question for you, my guy, what's going on in lac? What are the Clippers doing?
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Zach Lowe
I mean I, I like both of their transactions so I think they're doing okay things. I think this is good value for Zoo. Yeah, Neder Houser, the guy they drafted last year, gets him and I've liked when I've seen him play. He gets a real shot. Now obviously they're not tanking because they have no incentive to. In fact, look, if you look at the play in standings, Portland and the Portland should throw a party because everybody behind them hit the rip, pulled the ripcord and the Clippers in front of them semi, you know, made a little, little step back kind of moves. But I think this is good value for Zubots. I think Harden for Garland is a nice outcome for the Clippers. It, it, it chips away at their cap space in 27, which they've been very precious about. But we also don't know like I right now Kawhi has no money in 27, 28. He'll be an unrestricted free agent after next season. I heard no Kawhi trade buzz at all the entire week. I wonder if he's like just kind of a Clipper for life. But I'm interested to see. Why are you making the fingers? What are you getting at?
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Kurt Goldsberry
You Called a bunch of the wind Horse fingers. I know. I'm sure you called around and heard some like, I have conspiracy bill written on my board here for a reason. There's people around the league who's like, oh, they're trading everybody except one guy. I wonder what's going on. There was no buzz around Kawhi Leonard, but there was a lot of, you know, obviously they moved Zubacz and Harden. Is there something else happening? That's the thing I can't get away from in my phone conversations. Trying to explain what's going on with the Clippers.
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Zach Lowe
What you're implying is, do they know that something is coming?
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Kurt Goldsberry
Did you hear that from your calls, or is it just the weird people I'm talking to?
- [12:48]
Zach Lowe
It's going around. From what I heard when I checked in, let's say the investigation is not over yet. It's not over. So I don't know exactly why that's going around. To me, all of these moves are explainable through basketball and trade value logic. I mean, no buzz for Kawhi. I mean, does any team. I just, I mean, I think they're two decent moves for the Clippers. And frankly, I was most excited. Kirk to talk about the Pacers because. Yeah, let's do it. No, no, continue. Finish up. Do you think they're not good moves?
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Kurt Goldsberry
I like Zubach. I don't know why. He's a great contract.
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Zach Lowe
He's very good.
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Kurt Goldsberry
If they get.
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Zach Lowe
He was like borderline all NBA last year.
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Kurt Goldsberry
Yeah, yeah, I heard you and, and. Or I watched you and Bill on Netflix earlier. How about that? But yeah, I like Zubac. I like the number. I. I heard Bill say he had him all NBA last year. I love the player. I don't know why you're. It depends. It's just like, I guess I'm going further back. Zach Lowe, when I'm wondering about the Clippers, hey, we're. We won 19 of our last 24 games. Things are going. Things are going good. I did not expect them to be sellers at this trade deadline that we're dissecting. I think that's my. I did not expect the Los Angeles Clippers to be selling parts at this deadline.
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Zach Lowe
What I'm struggling with in the dot connecting is why fearing a punishment would make them sellers.
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Kurt Goldsberry
Yeah.
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Zach Lowe
What is the. What is the connection there? Can you explain that to me?
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Kurt Goldsberry
Anything from doing the player a solid. Hey, it's about to get crappy around here. I'm going to get you out of here.
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Zach Lowe
Or did that's what I've heard. You're right, that is what I've heard.
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Kurt Goldsberry
But again, it seems to me like a little bit of the NBA Gossip Girl stuff. Like how would you know that this is happening? This law firm has an incredible reputation. Are there really signs that this is happening? I anticipate a punishment myself. I don't pretend to know exactly what that might look like.
- [15:01]
Zach Lowe
So until proven otherwise, I am going to assume that the hardened move is what it looks like, which is we didn't pay you multiple years, we're not good enough to win the title. We're not going to pay you multiple years because we're ready to try to reorient ourselves for whatever our next era looks like, AKA we have tons of cap space, et cetera. And let's work together and find a solution that gets us something. And it got us Darius Garland and the Zubots. Like Zubots is 29. If you're going to pivot off of him, now is the time to do it. His value is not going to get higher than it is now with three years left on his contract or whatever it is. And he's already taken a small step back this year. But I think that is mostly the first month of the season. He's been about Zoo like since then. So I'm, until, until proven otherwise, I'm going to accept these as as explainable basketball moves at face value.
- [15:56]
Kurt Goldsberry
I, I, I, I can go there with you for sure. But yeah, that was just the unmistakable sort of subtext of a lot of the phone calls I had talking about this one. I think the Pacers you're really excited about and you mentioned Rick Carlisle is a great coach. They're going to have to play a little bit differently, I think with Zubac than they have with Miles Turner, but I trust him and his ability. This is a guy who's been to the finals a few times with very different basketball teams. So I anticipate that they'll still have a pretty pacey Halliburton led attack, but it might look a little bit different without a stretch five in that offense.
- [16:38]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, totally. And the, the, the upside of that is Zoo, I think is obviously a much better post player. You switch, you, you have a mismatch on the block. He's much more adept to punish that. He's cagier with the basketball, nimbler as a passer, nimbler in the short role, just feels the game better than Miles Turner and had awesome pick and roll chemistry with James Harden. And I'm, I Think Tyrese Halliburton will figure that out. And Siakam has really proven himself now as a spacey big man like he could. His three has really stabilized like around 40%. He's a real legit threat to hit threes. And so if you have to use him as a spacer more, I think that's fine. And Rick Carlisle will find solutions for all this. I just would if one of Shepherd, I mean, Jairus Walker has been hot lately for the last couple of weeks. They're going to need one of those two guys without Matheran to make a little bit of a leap next year. McConnell's getting a little old. Huff is, you know, looks great for eight minutes a game and then sometimes when you play them more than that doesn't look as good. But I just, I love their starting five and I love the fact that they're just planting their flag like, yeah, remember us, we're back next year.
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Kurt Goldsberry
Yeah.
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Zach Lowe
So Detroit, New York, Philly, Boston, Cleveland, especially Cleveland, I think would argue they feel like they're one of the big winners of the trade deadline because no one around them in the east made any kind of earth shattering move. The Knicks got Alvarado, which I really like for them, particularly with Deuce McBride hurt. He's having, I think sports hernia surgery will be out till the playoffs, according to Fred Katz, our friend Fred Katz at the Athletic. I like Kevin Herder for Detroit, but these are not like earth shattering moves. Cleveland made a big move and so, but like I like Indiana being like, you better get out of the east now because we're coming back. Remember how we embarrassed you and you, you couldn't get a free throw rebound and we dance all over your home court. We're coming back with a beast in the middle.
- [18:29]
Kurt Goldsberry
Yeah, I agree. And I think we all like that team. I think that team has a very high approval rating so far. So it's a, it's a nice addition to the Eastern Conference, which is sort of thin, let's say that down the ranks. But yeah, dude, I like the point about New York not really doing anything. People around the league told me they really thought Cleveland got better. Now what you, what you think about the wisdom of trading a 26 year old for a 36 year old in the midterm or the long term. That's fair. But Cleveland is better now than they were a few few days ago. I think that's one of the attitudes around the league. So. But yeah, I still think Indiana presents as, as a potential huge, huge player in the Eastern Conference going forward and I can't wait to watch it.
- [19:14]
Zach Lowe
A couple leftover thoughts on the Garland Harden swap, which is the other most fascinating trade of the deadline that I did not I think articulate as much previously. Harden is a minus defender, we all know that. And I mentioned how in Mobley and Allen they should have the infrastructure to cover for him what he is. And I think this matters to the Cavs more than I gave her credit for at the time two days ago was he's, he's bigger and stouter than Darius Garland and so it's one less guy like when the Celtics would hunt Garland mercilessly with Tatum and Brown. It's one like Harden is not. It's not a pushover like that size wise and I think that that matters to them. His errors are more just sort of spacing out, getting back cut, not hustling and like that. That all matters too. What's not persuasive to me is this idea that I've heard buzzing about, well that you know Harden is going to come back on a short term deal potentially with Cleveland. We don't know what Harden's future is, But Garland has two years left on his contract at 40 something apiece after this. Let's say Harden's contract largely mirrors that. Let's say they give him a one plus one or something like that. So in the short term it's kind of a financial wash if that proves to be the case. They don't get any apron tax related benefits or anything like that. But I've heard it saying, well they were going to have to make a decision on Garland eventually. He's young, he wants an extension. It could have eaten into their cap going forward five, six years and they sort of got out of one big long term commitment. I'm not buying that as a rationalization for the trade because if Darius Garland wants an extension, who cares? Just don't give it to him. You're under no obligation to give it to him. You just say you're hurt all the time. We're not giving it to you and you address that going forward. But I still just, I look at it as if all you care about is this season. The Cavs are better this season. If all you care about is the next two seasons. They may actually just be better the next two seasons based on availability alone. But it is still an astonishing vote of no confidence in Darius Garland, a guy you drafted and developed and liked and just decided he's never going to be healthy. 36 year old with a horrific track record in the highest leverage games. Come on in.
- [21:28]
Kurt Goldsberry
Yeah, and I think it dovetails, Zach, with sort of, and I'll bring it back to the Cavs. But one of my big sort of macroscopic takeaways from the 2026 trade deadline is that small guards are losing value in the NBA and we saw it across the league. I heard Bill frame it on his show with you earlier today saying everybody wants to get big. I'm going to sort of frame it in the negative way. People are afraid to be small and John Morant, Trey Young, Darius Garland, maybe throw Cam Thomas in there. There's this sort of player type that's market value is pretty shockingly low the last couple of weeks here. And Darius Garland. Selling Darius Garland like that fits into that mold. And can you get me an extra possession with the rebound? Can you switch on defense? Are you going to hold up in the playoffs? Some of these smaller players have a harder time answering that. And Darius Garland's availability has certainly been a big red flag for the Cleveland Cavaliers this year. So that's sort of a trend. And when it comes to Harden and Mitchell, the other thing I like that Harden does is he takes some of this burden off of Donovan Mitchell to make plays. I, I do. I'll listen to anybody who says, yeah, how's it going to work when they're both out there? I think that's a fair question. But it also gives them a pretty potent stagger of one of these dudes is going to be running our offense the whole game long. And that's pretty good for, for any team, let alone an Eastern Conference team, to say. So. I, I, overall, like I said, I think Cleveland is better. I think Garland just wasn't available. Harden is so like, I agree with you the next year or two, I think they're, they're gonna, they're gonna be a better basketball team because of this. And it's on Darius to prove him wrong. Getting better and playing better long term in the Western Conference.
- [23:27]
Zach Lowe
I, I, yeah, I talked about the stagger stuff, the fit stuff, Hardens drives and free throws sort Leani didn't include. I talked about all that on the last episode. People should go listen to that if they want more on that trade. But yeah, I just, just win your series in five games. Don't get to game six and seven if you can, if you can avoid it. All right, let's take, let's take a quick, a short break here and then we're going to talk about the Wiz, the Zach Lowe show is brought to you by FanDuel. FanDuel is putting you in control right from tip up. That's right, you get to choose your reward. Play it safe. Go for it. Feeling bold. Okay, that's your move. Whatever your style, you're in control no matter how you play. FanDuel's giving you the power to choose your reward and own your game this NBA season. Head to FanDuel.com low to make your pick. Get in the game and play it your way. 21 over in President in select states or 18 over President in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Opt in. Required rewards are non withdrawable. Restrictions apply including bonus and token expiration, leg requirements and max wager amount. See terms@sportsbook.fanduel.com gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat this episode is brought to you by Lincoln Whether you're watching highlights while parked or heading out for a Drive, the 2026 Lincoln Nautilus Hybrid keeps you connected with smart tech that helps tie your on screen and off together. So help turn every drive into an opportunity for discovery with a 2026 Lincoln Nautilus Hybrid. Learn more at lincoln.com available. Connectivity, features and functionality vary by model package pricing, trials and term lengths vary by model. Video streaming and games are only available while parked in Connecticut. Okay, another big trade that I haven't addressed yet. Anthony Davis is on the Wizards. What happened? The Wizards traded some salary for some players that are going to be fungible for the Mavericks. Chris Middleton being the biggest salary of that and two first round picks the Thunders pick this season. So number 29 or 30. Yeah, and the warriors pick protected one to 20 in 2030. I think and I think that just if that if that doesn't convey, excuse me, it just rolls over to nothing and then some seconds for Anthony Davis. I don't recall anything quite like this Kirk. A team that's just abysmally bad like very early in the rebuilding process without an obvious generational centerpiece prospect. I think Alex Sar is gonna be really good. But he's not Cooper Flagg. He's obviously not Wembanyama. He's not that kind of like okay, now we're just everything is about this guy. Still pretty raw young core. Like even Bilal Koulibaly who's in his third year is pretty raw offensively. Not having a great year shooting the ball, et cetera. Just sort of like waking up one day and Trey Young and Anthony Davis like two. Whatever you think of them, Anthony Davis is top 20 player when he's healthy, probably still. Trey Young is probably top 40. Like I don't remember a team this bad and this early in its rebuilding process just kind of falling in to two top 40 players. Like, oh, I guess we can get Trae Young and Anthony Davis. Didn't really plan on that, but it's costing us players who don't really want and some crappy draft picks. I guess we'll do it. What is this? What does this amount to?
- [26:59]
Kurt Goldsberry
My, and I have no reporting on this, so don't read into it, but I remember a previous appearance on the Zach Lowe show where I said part of the Trae Young rationale because there were reports, reports that the, the Washington Wizards were having a hard time selling tickets and making money in the old fashioned ways of the NBA. Now they have famous basketball players on their team and they might drum up some excitement and some season tickets and sell some sweets. I think there's some of that. I also think it's an opportunity and I think they, they didn't give much away to get as you described, two top 40 basketball players. And for whatever reason, as you said, they fell in their lap. So it's an interesting, interesting image. The picture that, that came out the in this day and age, we, we get these rapid Photoshop images of Trey Young there standing next to Anthony Davis and their fake Photoshopped Wizards uniforms and it just looked weird, man. It looks weird. And there was a stat on NBA Reddit that I'm going to read to you. Zach Lowe's the Washington Wizards will now finish with fewer than 50 wins for the 47th consecutive year. So this is an organization that has never had success in my lifetime and they are desperate to change that. I don't know if it's ownership pressure, but they saw an opportunity and by gosh, they went out and they got Anthony Davis, didn't they? Zach Lowe.
- [28:26]
Zach Lowe
I think they would say a few things. Number one, we have to spend this money. Like the salary floor is now 90 whatever percent of the cap. We gotta spend it. Yeah, we didn't give up any of our actual good trade ammunition. We have all of our picks. I think they have one more extra pick coming and an extra swap or two, all of our own swaps. Like if we wanna make a blockbuster trade, we can do that. And also like we were never gonna be in a position to compete in the pics race with like Memphis Brooklyn, Oklahoma City, Houston. Like, they're just not loaded for bear like that. And then, you know, there's like, ironically, we're talking about how the race. These protected picks are going to make for a crazy tank race this year. The lottery yards are meant to incentivize bad teams to try not to be abysmally bad. And I think this is a rational decision that looks at that. And then the Thunder pick, I think, was burning a hole in their pocket. Like, I don't know if they can even roster another young player. So they could have traded it for a few. Two future seconds or whatever, and four future seconds. Whatever it is, they decided to do this. And it's kind of like no harm, no foul to me. Except for this. I don't know what's going to happen with Trae Young's contract going forward. He has a player option for next year at 49 million. I love. If I'm the Wizards, I'd love for him to opt into that, and then, you know, we'll table it till the end of next season. Anthony Davis is guaranteed next season. 58 million. Has a player option for 63 million in 20, 27, 28. I don't think. I don't think he's getting an extension as part of this deal. I could be wrong. Something could happen in the summer, and this take could be completely wrong. I heard from other teams that were in the ad, you know, ecosystem. Like, you know, we know who those teams were that clutch. By the end of the trade negotiation process, it sort of realized, like, the extension just isn't going to be there. But that $63 million player option still scares me a little bit. Except the Wizards have all rookie deals that year, basically, except Koulibaly, who's there. No one's breaking the bank for him. So I don't even think they care if he opts into that. So I guess it's like, no harm, no foul. Let's win some games. Maybe these guys make it easier for our young players to play secondary, tertiary kind of roles. And, like, look, Trae Young's destiny has been to play with an elite defensive center. Like, it's like. It's. It's why I always like the idea of somehow getting Trae Young and Gobert on the same team. Like, polar opposites as players, but somehow they fit together. So I don't know. I mean, I don't have any. My hottest take actually on this trade is, why did Dallas do it? Yeah. What's in it? What's in it for them other than just like the optics of we just got to erase. We just have to like eternal sunshine, the spotlight mind this entire last year out of our lives.
- [31:14]
Kurt Goldsberry
They got to get young. They got to get young. And I don't mean Trey young. They got to get young next to Cooper. And so the, The OKC pick conveys no matter what, right? It's just going to be 30.
- [31:28]
Zach Lowe
But that's why Detroit. Detroit's coming.
- [31:30]
Kurt Goldsberry
Yeah, yeah, we got. We got good picks. Yeah, Detroit's coming. They might pass them. It might be 29. Hey, but. Except when I worked at the spurs, we were 28, 29, 30. We got Dejante, we got Derek White, you know, Kyle Anderson. You can get good players there. And I think Dallas saw an opportunity to do that. They need to put talent next to Cooper flag in a Western Conference that has young cores and OKC and young cores in Houston and young cores in San Antonio that aren't going anywhere. And Anthony Davis wasn't part of that long time, that long term future. One interesting thing that I have to ask you about with this trade, though. What if Anthony Davis doesn't like being a Washington Wizard? Are we sure he wants to play basketball in Washington? He's a very prideful guy. He's one of the best players in the league. When he's healthy, is he going to be okay playing or not playing in this franchise that, let's face it, hasn't been great? He wants to compete. He still thinks he can be a good player on a championship team. Is this going to work for him? Is there going to be any conflict there?
- [32:44]
Zach Lowe
Look, are you going to be surprised if Anthony Davis has a great first 50 games next season and the Wizards flip him for extra value to somewhere else where he can compete for a championship? I won't be surprised. But I'll give you some suggestions that could help with this. Cause number one, the Wizards is. I'm just. I think it's just a bad franchise name. It's cartoonish. I can't take them seriously. Their uniforms stink. All of them, except the cherry blossom ones, which they've done away with. Bring those back. Make them the cord. Like, look, look. Dress for the part that you want. Dress for the job that you want. You're dressing to be a bad AAU team right now just for the job you want. And look, I don't. I'm not going to besmirch. I'm not going to besmirch their mascot, Gee whiz, which is kind of he's kind of gonzo with a wizard's hat on. I'm just going to say this. Jackson Hayes.
- [33:38]
Kurt Goldsberry
Yeah.
- [33:38]
Zach Lowe
Jackson Hayes. Don't mess with the mascots, okay? Adam Silver sent you a message. You shoved. Gee whiz. All G Wiz was trying to do. He or she was jog off the floor after their jolly day, I guess their jolly pregame routine. You hip. Check them on the ground. Let me tell you this. Not only did Adam Silver suspend you for that, deservedly so. The other mascots are watching. Don't you know? You're walking down a dark alley, you see a blur of red behind you. It might be Benny the Bull. It might be Benny the Bull with the bag of popcorn. Okay? Just watch yourself. Jackson Hayes.
- [34:12]
Kurt Goldsberry
Hey, proud of you for. For forgetting the. The pronouns there.
- [34:16]
Zach Lowe
Right?
- [34:17]
Kurt Goldsberry
I'm not. I'm not aware of what's going on with the pronouns in the mascot space. Never going to pretend to be, but as a professor at the University of Texas, little disappointed. And Jackson Hayes, the Longhorn great, didn't like to see that. That's. That's not what the mascots are there for. They're not there to be beat up or pushed around or shoved. These are the. They're there to entertain the kids. Jackson. Let's. Let's let them. Let. Let them do their job.
- [34:42]
Zach Lowe
Sleep with one eye open. Jackson Hayes. Because Pierre the Pelican might be standing over your bed one night.
- [34:47]
Kurt Goldsberry
Or worse yet, that baby one from the.
- [34:50]
Zach Lowe
The King baby. Oh, you don't want King Cake baby in your life. Man, that thing is. That thing is scary, okay? Anthony Davis, Dallas. I mean, look, they traded Luka Doncic for Anthony Davis, and they traded Anthony Davis for some expiring salaries and some bad picks, that is. And Max Christie's throwing in there, too. That's a. That's about as depressing as it gets. I just don't. Like. I don't. I don't think. I don't think they were going to struggle to get this equivalent deal in the off season, and maybe they could have done something, but I just think this is. I mean, look there. Anthony Davis had very little trade value. That's the reality. Part of that is a huge part of that is his contract, but another part of that is that he's injured and a team getting him doesn't know how reliable he's going to be for the end of the season. At the end of this playoff run. I just, you know, I. I think it's an okay deal for the Mavericks. I completely Understand why they made it to get any positive draft assets in this. In a mid season trade like this with Anthony Davis is probably okay. I just, I. It's just not that great of a trade. But for the Wiz, I mean, look, you could, you could roll out. Well, how about this? What do you think of the Sar Davis double big pairing?
- [36:08]
Kurt Goldsberry
I love it. Actually. AD has played 4 and 5. I don't see why Sar can't play next to him. I don't know if they need to define who's the four or who's five. You know, I, I tweeted a stat that, that Anthony Davis, I don't know why he. His reputation doesn't follow him. He's. He's statistically arguably the worst jump shooter of the 2000s. If you look at guys who have shot over 2,000 jump shots, Zach, since 2020, it's 121 players. It's not a short list. He's dead last in efficiency below guys like Giannis and Westbrook who get roasted all the time for not being able to shoot it. So when I look at that specific combo, is Sara going to be able to shoot it? Because AD really doesn't stretch the floor. That would be my concern. If they can't do that on offense. But defensively I think it's a nice look. Obviously. And Washington's not a. I'm glad you're sitting down. Wizards traditionally not a great defense.
- [37:05]
Zach Lowe
Wizards traditionally are bad everything.
- [37:09]
Kurt Goldsberry
Look, they're in the quadrant of whoa. I might. I might rename the quadrant of Whoa on the efficiency landscape to the quadrant of Wiz.
- [37:18]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, Wiz land. Anthony Davis left his jump shot in the bubble and Alex Sar part of his development this year has been taking fewer threes as a full time 5.33percent and so but defensively I think it should work fine and both of them have some amount of face up game. I think it's worth a shot. You like. Like you do with Hardin and Mitchell. You stagger it if you need to. A starting lineup of Trey Young either cool up Ali or Trey J. Who I really like.
- [37:46]
Kurt Goldsberry
Yeah.
- [37:46]
Zach Lowe
Keyshawn George is good. Sar AD that's fun. I can have champagne come off the bench. I can have Will Riley come off the bench. I need a backup. Big one of Johnson and Kula Bali comes off the bench. It's a representative team that could chase a play in spot next year for sure. I said I texted House on another chain saying you now have to take the over. Next year you're mandatory. Take and we said, what would the line be? And I was like maybe 34 and a half, something like that. I mean. And take the over. I don't know. And I just don't. Again, in Dallas's defense, I don't think Atlanta was really in it by the end. Toronto, I think, looked at it pretty seriously, but obviously didn't meet this price. Warriors, I don't really think were in it. Milwaukee, who was one of my desperation ad teams, they obviously had a lot of going on and pivoted in other directions and the Clippers were my other sort of desperation ad team and they pivoted in other directions. So I don't know if they had anything else, anything else on this one. This is just like. I just. I. I'm just sort of flabbergast. There are a lot of trades that left me like, okay, like I was.
- [38:50]
Kurt Goldsberry
Yeah, there was a lot of those this year. I. The question I'd end the segment on is, is how many games will Trae Young and Anthony Davis play the remainder of this season? Combined?
- [39:02]
Zach Lowe
Combined. I'm going to put the over under a ten and a half.
- [39:07]
Kurt Goldsberry
Yeah.
- [39:07]
Zach Lowe
You think that's too high?
- [39:09]
Kurt Goldsberry
No, I just think it's. And I know this is what we're not podcasting about, but we talked about the tanking earlier and I hate the sort of acceptance of so many probably healthy guys not playing basketball. I just hate that for when I go to games, when other people go to games, when I'm on league pass. I just hate that I wish the league could figure out a way that these guys are just not going to play. That's just acceptable. Now I just don't like it and it feels like it's increasing, not decreasing.
- [39:37]
Zach Lowe
Zach Low, the other flabbergaster trade. As long as we're here, it was 11:45 last night, east coast time, and I get the alert. Atlanta has acquired Jonathan Kaminga and Buddy Yield first Kristaps Porzingis. And I just looked at my phone just like, what. What even. Like, like an alien had landed in my house. Like, what. What is this? Why is anybody doing this? What is going on? Warriors, of course, did pretty much nothing at the trade deadline, which doesn't surprise me. I don't. You look, warriors fans are going to be mad, but you look at the list of players who actually got traded, I'm not really sure what was. What was there for them. And obviously trading Kaminga for a stretch five in theory, but in reality, a guy who just doesn't play in poor zingis is disappointing given all the hype. Atlanta, I have no. Like, does Kaminga and Jalen Johnson and Dyson Daniels, can they all play together? Is he a good fit in their like random dho? Heavy off. I have no. I have no idea what to make of that. That was a fl. Do you have a. Do you have another small scale flabbergaster?
- [40:43]
Kurt Goldsberry
Well, that one's a good one. And we talked last time I was on about too many canards. Well, one less canard in Atlanta. He's a Laker now. But now they have Kaminga in there and I did think. I did talk to somebody who thought Kaminga wasn't going to be in Atlanta Hawk for very long.
- [40:57]
Zach Lowe
I think they would love. I think they would love to flip Jonathan Kaminga in the summer. Like, boom, do it.
- [41:02]
Kurt Goldsberry
Yeah. So I think that one in terms of flabbergast, everything the Bulls did. I don't want to rehash everything you and Bill said, but you're just sitting here watching the bullet points of their trade deadline and I kind of like Simons and Dillingham, like give them a shot. But it was funny to see like the Internet react to. They have eight guards now. No, they have nine guards now. Oh, they're back to eight guards. But what, what, what was the, the general purpose of Chicago's trade activity over the last week? I don't have the answer to that. I think that would be my flabbergaster on Canard.
- [41:42]
Zach Lowe
The Lakers traded Game Vincent and a 2032 second round pick for Luke Canard. It's the only second round pick the Lakers had left to trade. Actually, it's kind of a valuable asset for them. As overrated as I think second round picks can be, they're useful to bundle, but that was the only one they had. Canard is just is. So he shoots 40 to 45% from three like clockwork teams get him and they're like, yep, we're going to. He's going to shoot more for us. We're going to put him in pick and roll. And like he has three good weeks and then like the defensive limitations, all of a sudden he's on the fringes of the rotation and then he's traded. And I know Lakers fans are probably disappointed that this is all they did. I think this is exactly what I thought they would do, which is a whole lot of nothing. Like a fringy move doesn't really cost them much. They were never going to trade a first round pick for DeAndre Hunter or something like that. Because they can get to the summer with three first round picks to trade cap space, some amount, a large amount depending on a few variables, including Austin Reaves cap hold and the timing of his contract. And I think they're just going to save their ammo for that. They know, they know this is not a championship team. They're not going to blow their assets for a marginal upgrade that makes them from whatever they are now to 0.05% more likely to win a playoff series or something like that. So that's the Canard trade. And you know, we'll hear all about, well, Canard man, luka, unlock him. LeBron will unlock him and then he won't play. And that's just the reality of Luke Canard. Speaking of the summer when teams have three picks to trade and all of this. Giannis was not traded. There he is right there looking mean. And then he, then he did the.
- [43:22]
Kevin Pelton
He.
- [43:23]
Zach Lowe
He Instagrammed the. Oh, the Leo. The Leo. Clip from Wolf of Wall street about it. I'm not going anywhere. There's a lot to digest with Giannis not being traded. Give me your, give me your general. Where, where would you like to start?
- [43:42]
Kurt Goldsberry
I'll start here. And I know we have a great discussion coming. I was annoyed. I'm going to look back at the trade deadline of 2026 with a sort of Zach Lowe classic, this is annoying. This is annoying behavior. I don't like all of the tweets that don't result in any kind of payoff. That is very anticlimactic. But it's also annoying. I find myself very annoyed that nothing happened. But beyond that, I think it's the best move the Milwaukee Bucks had. I think it's the best move the Milwaukee Bucks had. Just from a basic, and I told you the other day is like, it depends on how awkward it is in the facility or in the locker room or whatever with the guy. And if it's tolerable, the best move here is to get to the summer. Why? The market's bigger, you have more time, there's more draft capital to be moved around. It makes a hell of a lot of sense if you're the Milwaukee Bucks front office. The other thing it does, and I had multiple people tell me this, and this is why I think his tweet is really relevant. Zach Lowe. It gives them a real chance with their own draft capital expanding to win this guy back one last time. Giannis, are you sure? Are you sure you want to move on from Wisconsin? Look at us, we won the championship. Together, we'll use our three picks. Now that we have three picks this summer, we can use not just this one, not just Kuzma. We can package all sorts. Who do you want to try to get? We'll get. It gives them a chance to keep the player again. So I think there's two things that make it better for Milwaukee as a team. Obviously, the trade market gets bigger, but it gives them another chance and a better set of tools to keep Giannis and try to keep the extend the Giannis onto Takumbo era in Milwaukee deeper into the 2000s.
- [45:38]
Zach Lowe
The only downside, as you weigh the balance, is do we lose leverage because he becomes an expiring contract?
- [45:47]
Kurt Goldsberry
Yes.
- [45:48]
Zach Lowe
And if he actually decides to do this, he can now dictate with more pressure where he wants to go and actually don't. I think Milwaukee was correct on a number of fronts to conclude that downside is not so severe and may actually be nonexistent. I think if that were to happen, the list will still be broad enough that they will gin up an offer that is as good or better than the best thing they could have gotten today as team after team after team sort of fell out of the bidding. I don't think this is going to be a New York or bust. I think it'll open up or it could open. The other thing is maybe it doesn't happen at all. And it kind of slid under the radar in the 24 hours to the trade deadline. But you honestly have two on the record interviews, one to Eric Neem at the Athletic and one to the Journal Sentinel where he talked a lot about how much he loves Milwaukee and basically said, my, what I want is to win here. You know, you're saying that if you can convince. I'm quoting Eric's article now. You're saying that if you convince me to stay within the team and the next year, that we can compete. Oh, yeah, 1,000%, 1 million percent. Obviously leaving the door open to. And he said earlier in that piece, I want to win. I don't want to be fighting for my life to make the playoffs every year, which is this, this season. So there's always the balance of winning versus Milwaukee, but it's clear he actually wants to stay in Milwaukee if he had his druthers. And so maybe the Bucks are correct to say, well, we are. We're going to get a. Now how they negotiate Giannis's playing time for the rest of the season is going to be fascinating because as we all know, now they get the Worst of their own pick or the Pelicans pick. The Hawks get to pick the best of those. So they're incentivized to try to get another high pick, either as a trade asset or. Or to go to Giannis and say, this is a building block that we can move forward with. And I think all of this is correct by the Bucks. And the ultimate leverage is, and this was a very interesting conversation I had with somebody today, the ultimate leverage is, are you willing to risk just letting him walk for nothing? Because we've seen teams do that before. Like the Thunder were going down with the ship with Durant. The Heat were going. The Heat and the Cavs 1.0 were going down with the ship with LeBron. Now the difference is they were going down with the ship for teams that could have won the championship. They were legitimate inner circle top title contenders in those years. 2010 for LeBron, 2016 for Durant, et cetera. The Bucks are not that right now. Could they be that at the end of the summer of 2027? It seems incredibly far fetched. But in this conference, with this player and some draft luck and another rabbit out of the hat, you never know. And by the way, Giannis, he's 31 and he has calf injuries, we know those things are true. He's having the best offensive season of his career. Like, he's not 35 and he's not declining. This is the best offensive season of his career. He's the third best player in the NBA and like with a bullet. And you know, because here's, I guess, short, shorter version. You saw the tweets today, right? About anonymous NBA source saying, well, they were never serious, this was never serious. And you would hear that was a waste of everyone's time. It was all a charade and blah, blah, blah. I don't know if that's true or not. Here's what I know. All these teams that were in on it and I think at the end it was really Minnesota, Golden State, Miami. And it looked like Miami was like the last team in because Minnesota pivoted to their trade. Golden State pivoted to their trade. It's really just because Miami had nothing else to pivot to. They just did nothing and were cool doing nothing and waiting till the end. I would put it like this. Those teams had real conversations with the Bucks. I think Minnesota was running around seeing what other stuff they could get to augment their trade off for Giannis. In theory, Miami had basically made an offer and was waiting. And I think from what I gleaned there was frustration among those teams. For sure, they are. They were all along skeptical that a deal was really to be had, but there were real discussions and. How can I put it? They never. No team that I heard from anyway, got to the point where it was. Usually you get to a trade and you get the phone call that says, we will do this trade. If you give us these five things, we will do it. It never got to that. It was always general concepts or, you know, that kind of thing. It never got to, like, we do it if you do this. But I don't. What I don't think is fair is people then just throwing shade at the bucks like it was all charade and they weren't serious. It's not their responsibility to do what you want to do. If they wanted to do a fishing expedition in case they get bowled over by a crazy offer, and failing that, pull out at the last minute. This is Giannis Antentokounmpo. This is their franchise. This is their franchise, their entire franchise. This is the first champion in 50 years, the head of their first championship team. I don't blame the Bucs for a second for how they went about any of this. And I think in the summer, it's going to be very interesting because you could argue that he is actually a player that's worth letting go for nothing, if that's what it comes to. So I don't know what's going to happen in the summer. Maybe we go to the. Everyone's like, well, here we go again. We're going to have to do this in the summer. Maybe. Maybe we will. And if we do, there are going to be more teams that are involved, potentially, but maybe we won't. Maybe it just ends with Giannis being like, you know what? I flirted with it. I had weird public statements where I said one thing and then I said another thing, and no one knew what to make of it. No, I'm just never going to leave.
- [51:44]
Kurt Goldsberry
He's the most interesting person in this saga. I think we're on the same page, Zach, that the Milwaukee front office actually, given their shitty predicament, handled this pretty well, got through the deadline. There's a brighter situation for them now that they did. But I also sort of come back to what Bill was saying with you earlier on his what are we doing? List, and he had Giannis. The individual is number one. And I think that's especially powerful in. In comparison to James Harden. James Harden is really good at making the choice that I no longer Want to play basketball at this place? I'm done here. Get me out of here. And he. He pulled it off like that. For whatever reason, Giannis is not going to do that. That's not his personality. And to Bill's point, we're continue this could be his best year as a basketball player on the planet. And I think that's where Bill and I sort of share the point. It's like, dude, you're kind of wasting it. And if I'm your agent, I'm not sure I want to give Milwaukee's front office any more of my prime to try to prove that they can build something around me. Because they've had four or five swings here, and they haven't done it since the Drew Holiday trade. Since the championship, they've made made mistake after mistake. They've drafted poorly, they haven't hired good coaches. You and I have talked about that. But again, I think it comes down to Giannis's attitude and his own vision for what he wants to do. And people who know him very well have told me that he's one of the most stubborn people that you'll ever meet, and he's a very proud person, and that those qualities lead him to kind of wanting to stay in Milwaukee and prove everybody wrong. And that's what his tweet was today. Real GS aren't going to just take off when it going gets tough. I'm going to stay here and I'm going to attract people here, and we're going to do it my way. And I think that's where we're at.
- [53:43]
Zach Lowe
So, A, let's just do that, then, and B, the difference. There are a couple of differences between Giannis and Harden. Number one. Well, no, but I'm not even saying character wise. I'm just saying number one, Harden was traded very early in his career, so he, right off the bat, sort of lived in the world where a guy where you feel fungible. Number two, Harden hasn't won a title. Giannis has won a title. Giannis has no, like, sure, two, three rings. Does that elevate you up, whatever imaginary pantheon we're creating? Maybe he has nothing to go. He has no thing, no unfulfilled quest to go search for. And there's clearly part of him. I take all of this from afar as like, this is a very human thing that's going on. He's not quite certain what direction he wants to go to, and he's thinking about it, and it's hard to make these kind of huge Definitive choices. Part of him wants to be a one team guy that has a late career renaissance on the team level in Milwaukee. That's not implausible. It just might take a couple of years for the Bucks to really, really build it back around him. And, you know, so in the meantime, everyone's going to go through all the teams that get, you know, Miami will have four picks to trade now. You know, what does Orlando do if they crap the bet in the playoffs? The spurs, the Rockets, the Thunder have all the assets in the world. One of those teams is going to have a disappointing playoffs. Do they come into it? Does Boston come into it? Does Cleveland decide to put Mobley into it? Atlanta, who controls the draft assets that we're talking about? The Bucks now get to not only sort of sift, sift through those offers if they ever get to that point, but they get to know where everybody's pick falls. There's all these things like Toronto, would they ever get back into it? Brooklyn, I don't think was in it much this week, but they have all the assets in the world. What if they sign a free agent? Like all of these ifs could happen, but we could also get to a world where Giannis just squashes it and the Bucks hit this out of the park and maybe hitting it out of the park for the 26, 27 bucks is like a 48 win team, but with some pathway in the next season or two before Giannis is 34 years old or whatever to be really good. So. I don't know, man. It was a weird. It's been a weird. It's been a weird. It's been a weird thing. I don't, I don't. But I will say I don't worry about them. The Bucks losing leverage because he's a tick closer to expiration. I think the offers will be there if they get to that point.
- [56:14]
Kurt Goldsberry
Yeah, I agree and I expect I was. I had the same point about there will be a bigger market in part because there's going to be disappointed teams after this postseason. There's just too many teams that think they're going to the conference finals, the conference semifinals that are not going to get there. There's not enough space for all those teams that we have slotted in and teams. We've seen it for years. Teams that have those kinds of disappointments are often buyers in the trade market around the draft time.
- [56:41]
Zach Lowe
I just strange. It does. It does feel at first blush like, I don't know, it will be interesting to see what Miami, what Miami's pivot is because they're in a strange spot, just sort of on a macro franchise level. After trading Butler last year, they're just okay this year. I think they really more than any of these other teams, even more than the Warriors. I think were hoping that luck would favor them with Giannis and you know, they get four picks to trade of all their young guys, all that. But it felt for a second like they were the last team standing. Part of that was sort of just the way the dominoes fell and it felt like maybe they had a chance and now it's going to be open for everybody. I don't know. Any final thoughts on the deadline you want to get off?
- [57:24]
Kurt Goldsberry
It just feels like again related to that. It feels like fewer teams are willing to package up a bunch of first round picks. I think by my count we saw 49 players traded. These are probably wrong, but ballpark, 35 second round picks traded and nine first round picks traded in air quotes because a lot of those have the kinds of protections and, and rules there. And so I, I just think in this CBA era the draft picks Zach are, they've always been important in the NBA, don't get me wrong. But it seems like they're more important and, and then the Sam Presti model of like I just want a lot of first round other teams are watching and they're less teams that are willing to throw out a bunch of picks. It doesn't mean there's none. It just means in my belief that first round picket mark, that first round pick market is smaller than maybe it was five or ten years ago when we started doing these trade deadline shows.
- [58:23]
Zach Lowe
It also like I think one of the reasons the Wizards went ahead and did this Davis deal is they concluded if we rented out our cap space this summer, next summer, whenever, give us your bad contract but give us an asset to take it that they would not get a great first round pick or anything like that to do it. I think the Mavericks when they got Chris Middleton would have happily flipped Khris Middleton's expiring deal for your big contract that runs an extra year that you don't want like a Zach Levine or something like that. If you give us a first round pick and I just don't think teams partly because contracts are just shorter now are willing to attach like a really good first round pick to dump that kind of money. And it's just those kind of deals just weren't there. And to the I should have mentioned on the Mavs like getting any first round picks is good for a team that doesn't control its first round pick after this year for several years, but I still just don't love that deal for them. All right, Kurt Goldsberry, you're nailing this like usual man. Good to see you. Thank you. Go see dogs.
- [59:25]
Kurt Goldsberry
Hey, you have done a lot of podcasting today. You are in fine form. Thank you Zach. I'll see you soon, buddy.
- [59:32]
Zach Lowe
Thanks. This episode is brought to you by ebay. On ebay, behind every car and part is a story waiting to be shared. I read about this guy who brought a newly scrapped 2020 Porsche Cayman. He rebuilt the whole thing, all with parts he found on ebay. And now that Cayman is out tearing up the track from Toyotas to Aston Martins, ebay has thousands of cars and the largest online selection of vehicle parts and accessories. Ebay things people love. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. On or off the court, nothing beats a good friendly competition. Especially when Michelo Boltra is on the line. So go see who can make more three pointers or who can land the sickest jumps on the slope. Winner gets a superior beer. Worth playing for or with the winter games and end of football season coming up, play for bigger keeps with Michelob Ultra's latest challenge with a chance to win tickets to the biggest sporting events of the year. Enter now@michelob ultra.com Ultrainstructor Michelob Ultra Ultra Instructor no purchase necessary. Open to US residents. Swinging over begins on January 30, 2026 and ends on February 22, 2026. The official rules@michelobaltra.com rules for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes and details. But Kevin Pelton with a Seahawks hoodie. It's been too long, my friend. How are you doing?
- [60:46]
Kevin Pelton
I'm doing well. This feels like old time certainly to come on after the trade deadline.
- [60:51]
Zach Lowe
How you feeling about the Super Bowl?
- [60:54]
Kevin Pelton
Optimistic, probably dangerously optimistic but a little nervous about this Nick Eman worry injury that just cropped up on on Wednesday. So you know going to be nervous about that for the next 72 hours or so.
- [61:08]
Zach Lowe
What is your super bowl watching game plan?
- [61:12]
Kevin Pelton
Well, I am going to be in Maui this weekend not having necessarily expected when I booked that trip to Seahawks to be in the super bowl but a traditional post trade deadline trip. So I don't yet have a place picked out but I've heard that there are tons of Seahawks fans there Seahawks bars. So I think we'll have some good options.
- [61:32]
Zach Lowe
Okay, that's good. You got to either watch it alone or with your people. You cannot risk watching it with impartial people who will not understand your misery or glee or enemy. People who will rub it in. Okay, you used to write freesbn.com a column, winners and losers of the trade deadline. I used to write that as well. You're not writing it this year, so I'm going to steal you and say give me some winners and losers of the trade deadline. So I will let you lead off. Pick a winner, pick a loser. And I said anything, any type of winner, loser, whether it's a team, a conference, aspect of the NBA, a player, whatever, do whatever you want. So pick something.
- [62:09]
Kevin Pelton
I mean we're going to get more esoteric as this goes on, but I think you have to start with the Oklahoma City Thunder in terms of everything besides Dildrus Alexander that happened this week. Yeah, I don't think a controversial pick, suffice it to say. But the most interesting story to me of the trade deadline is that the Thunder were the only above.500 team that traded a first round pick. They were the only team that even is headed to the postseason that traded a first round pick, which is pretty wild to think. Then you add in, you know, whatever degree the Clippers sort of downgraded in the moves that they made, which you know, certainly they did to some degree that, you know, benefiting their pick they're going to have this year. And I do like the Jared McCain trade for them. So you combine all three of those things. I think Oklahoma City a great week for them.
- [62:59]
Zach Lowe
So McCain from the Sixers to the Thunder Sixers get under the tax. McCain was obviously buried to some degree behind a whole pile of guards. Although with Paul George out for 20 whatever games due to suspension, I thought they could have used him a little bit. And in exchange the Thunder give up the Rockets 20, 26 first round pick. So it'll be where, where, where is now like 24th, 25th, something like that and three seconds. And as you pointed out in your column, classic Thunder. Like they got some guys that are expensive now or about to become expensive and incomes a guy on a rookie contract who can help now. Like I think he could play in the playoffs for them now for sure, let alone in the regular season when half their team is injured right now. It's a good trade for them. And you know, let's, let's talk Sixers then because I don't have them as losers. I just want it, I just want your view on there. You mentioned how none of these above. 500 teams traded a first round pick. Obviously the Cavs made a big trade and there were some, you know, the Knicks got Alvarado and the Pistons got Kevin Herder, but no big seismic thing other than the Cavs trade. The two fan bases that just anecdotally to me seem the most angry with their teams in action are Philadelphia and Golden State. Philadelphia Ducks. The Tax does basically nothing to upgrade a team that's been playing well. Embiid is on a great run and the warriors, you know there's just constant like they need to do more to put talent around Steph and instead they make this weird Kaminga heel for Porzingis trade. What do you make of those teams foregoing win now sorts of moves?
- [64:40]
Kevin Pelton
I've been a Sixers skeptic all season and I do have to acknowledge that probably the last week or so have started to turn me because obviously Joel Embiid has been playing at this renewed all star level for an extended period of time here, but for a while it was kind of like we were yada yada ing over that. Yes, Joel Embiid plays great and they need a game winning jumper to beat the Kings or whatever the situation is. The results were not as impressive as Joel Embiid's performance was in that stretch. In the last week I feel like including going into the Bay and taking down the Warriors, I feel like the results have started to catch up with the hype a little bit. So from that standpoint I get it's disappointing. I do think it was a little tricky when we did our annual dunked on mock trade deadline exercise. I had the Sixers didn't end up doing anything of consequence in that though. I tried kick the tires on a few different things, particularly Najee Marshall was the guy I really had settled on. It's a great name target for them, but obviously someone who did not move this week. So maybe they tried and Dallas wasn't interested. So what exactly they were going to do but to create the salary flexibility that they did? Maybe I guess there's some way that they plausibly go big on the buyout market because they did create three roster spots that was interesting. They didn't need to make the Eric Gordon trade necessarily after they had traded McCain to Oklahoma City and they still went ahead and did that and have signed a couple guys to 10 day contracts. So they do seem to be keeping some optionality. Maybe they have a buyout play up.
- [66:11]
Zach Lowe
There sleep and they're going to convert Barlo. Right?
- [66:13]
Kevin Pelton
Right.
- [66:14]
Zach Lowe
I would if that hasn't happened yet. Yeah. So Naji Marshall has instructed me because a lot of like you go through the players that were traded, like not that many difference making players were actually traded. Like no one who's going to get you to Philly and say wow, now they're a title contender right off the bat. And a lot of the players that were traded are either small guards or centers. And that's why you zero in on Naji Marshall. Because like I thought of P.J. washington as a guy that if I'm Philly and I'm going to throw a pick or two at but like he.
- [66:46]
Kevin Pelton
Trade restriction after the extension.
- [66:48]
Zach Lowe
Exactly like not even tradable. And those positionally guys are like, are hard, are hard to find. Golden State, it's. I mean they still have they. I'm sure they offered whatever they could offer for Giannis to the point about impact players changing teams. He didn't change teams. I don't look at a. Is there a player? I don't. I'm struggling to find like a mo. This is more I think accumulation of we didn't get market and we didn't get Paul George, we didn't get Anna Nobi, we didn't get soccer. They did get Jimmy Butler. I mean so I don't know is there. How do you feel about the Warriors?
- [67:23]
Kevin Pelton
Honestly, I kind of feel like it was other than Giannis, it would have been shuffling deck chairs after Jimmy went down. Like who are you going to get that's going to be replace everything that Jimmy brought to the table and they already like, you know, I was encouraged by the play in January against a relatively weak schedule. But were they good enough to win the west with Jimmy Butler? No, they needed to have Jimmy Butler and make an impact move at the deadline. So just making an impact move without him to me I think would, I'm not sure, I guess what the point would have been. Like wait out the honest thing. Maybe you can get back into it this summer. The Porcingis trade was a little bit confusing to me from the standpoint of like is awesome is that stretch five fit is for the warriors and has been obvious for a long period of time to me. It was now surpassed by the need for size on the wing, the need for second unit playmaking when Steph is on the bench. Those to me were the biggest needs. But again maybe to your point, who was the guy they could have traded for? There was talk about is there a Kamigle Wiggins swap and bring him back or something like that, which we did in the, the mock deadline, but he didn't move. You know, the, the players of that ilk didn't change teams either.
- [68:34]
Zach Lowe
And Kaminga didn't really have a strong market, in part because the warriors buried him for most of the season. But whether he deserved it or not is immaterial. That's what happened. That, that stunted his market. They didn't want Malik Monk. They probably at some point could have gotten a crappy first round pick from the Kings, like heavily protected, and that, that point passed and, you know, this is, this is where they are. All right, give me, by the way, just, oh, Philly. What did you think of the idea that Philly could have pursued Giannis had they put Vijay Edgecombe and all the picks they can trade, which is not very many on the table, and obviously Paul George. Did you buy any of that?
- [69:09]
Kevin Pelton
I mean, I, I think that Milwaukee has to hold media about that if they're getting offered Vijay Edgecombe. That's, you know, when you look at his age, his contract, all of those factors, like, that's about, you know, I didn't see where he is on Bill's trade value list, but he's got to be way up there based on what we've seen from him as a rookie. Is that like the guy for Philly, like, you know, pairing him and Joel Embiid? I don't know quite what that looks like exactly, but. So I don't think I would have gone that direction as the Sixers. That would be, to me too, all in on now when there's just reason to be excited and optimistic about the future. Because of Edgecomb and Tyrese Maxey.
- [69:50]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, I don't think they were ever going to entertain that. Paul George's contract, also complicated. But I've said this before. To me, every decision the Sixers make has to be about the maxi timetable and not the Embiid timetable. And, you know, yes, Giannis is sort of, you know, still at 31, can serve any timetable because he's that good. But losing Edgecombe certainly chips away at the timetable that I care most about. One thing on the Bucks, I mentioned with Goldsberry that the idea that, you know, maybe the Bucks are willing to just let Giannis's contract go all the way through, and if he walks, he walks. Comparing it to Durant with the Thunder and LeBron with the Cavs, one diff. And I said, you know, those teams were contenders. The Bucks are, as presently constructed, don't look like a contender. That could change the difference. The Bucks don't control their picks. I should have mentioned that they don't control their picks going forward in a whole bunch of years. But anyway, okay, give me another winner or loser.
- [70:44]
Kevin Pelton
KP yeah, I mean maybe we've already covered this, but I would just say the concept of loading up at the deadline and there were I think some teams that had the opportunity to do that that passed on it or made minor moves. In the case of Detroit, they were sitting there in this kind of command position where they're way under the luxury tax. They have big expiring contracts, most notably Tobias Harris. I thought the idea of going out and pursuing a big time power forward to go with this group, I get their patience and maybe they just didn't like the fit. If, you know, Michael Porter Jr. Is probably that guy. You know, if it's not Giannis who kind of is surprised. Yeah, we'll get to that later. The fact that he didn't get traded at all, I thought that was an interesting opportunity. And then San Antonio has these big expiring contracts too. Harrison Barnes still playing an important role for them. But Kelly Olenek, Jeremy Sohan, the fact that he didn't get traded is maybe one of the sneaky surprises at the deadline given how little he's played lately. So I thought there was something there for the spurs to do. But I guess both of those teams sort of thought we wanted to see like a deep playoff run with this group before we we make any changes around it.
- [71:50]
Zach Lowe
The Pistons at least did something which was turned Jaden Ivy and some other stuff into Kevin Herder and they got a pick swap from Minnesota in the process which could help. And I talked about Herder Herder like he could help them, like gives them a little more optionality as a two way ish player on mpj. From what I heard the Nets had really nothing close to actionable on him. I don't think Detroit was in on him at all. I don't think the warriors were in on him at all. And I don't mind the Nets keeping him. He has one year left on his contract. He's been an all star level player this year. I don't mind them keeping him. And Spurs. I'm glad you brought up the Spurs. You can't label them a loser because it's like Valhalla there now with Wemby and Castle and Fox and Harper and all of this upside and youth and the most exciting player in the MBA NBA and they're sitting at number two in the west and it's, it's just all Valhalla. I'm like you. Like, I was dead set, dead certain that they were going to make some marginal move. I didn't expect a big move, but I expected Sohan plus 4 seconds. Sohan and Olynic plus a protect heavily protected first in a swap or something, to get one more guy in, whoever that guy is, you know, like Naji Marshall or somebody like that, whatever the matching salary would be, just to get one more good rotation player in and fortify them for the playoffs. But obviously they didn't find anything they liked. I didn't. I haven't really gotten a lot of great intel on what they were searching around for, but I am like you a little surprised that there wasn't anything there.
- [73:21]
Kevin Pelton
Yeah. And again, maybe just not a great match. I mean, you know, they probably were not in the guard market too for obvious reasons with their depth in the backcourt. So, you know, at that point of guys that change teams, you're looking at sort of the, you know, there's some shooting specialists at off guard. Kaminga, there's not really like a clear fit that did change teams. So, you know, again, could have been the same thing where they poked around and didn't like what they found.
- [73:46]
Zach Lowe
Can I pick a loser?
- [73:47]
Kevin Pelton
Go for it.
- [73:50]
Zach Lowe
All the veterans who are still on the Sacramento Kings. Zach Levine, yeah, he's got his player option fine. He's not really losing. Sabonis, who I think badly wants to be on a winner. DeRozan, who just is existing there. Monk just. I don't even fault the Kings for not like I don't think any of those guys had a huge market. I'm. I've said all along I think Toronto's interest in Sabonis was overblown. I think Cleveland is a team that has looked at Sabonis here and there, but I don't think there was a real way to do it. And they're just, I guess we're just playing out the string in Sacramento. Just really depressing stuff.
- [74:29]
Kevin Pelton
It's amusing that the two guys that they were able to move were the players that they added last summer in terms of Dennis Schroeder and Dario Sharich. And you know, there could have been a construction. That Cleveland deal, I suppose that included Malik Monk instead of Schroeder would have been a bit more money for the Cavaliers. So, you know, significant is they consider like the possibility of, you know, if there's a way to restructure Harden's contract using the player option where he ends up making you know, taking enough of a pay cut that you can get under the second apron next year. But I do think Malik Monk maybe in some ways would have been a better fit in Cleveland than Dennis Schroeder.
- [75:04]
Zach Lowe
Would be another loser. Can I pitch you another loser? John Morant? I don't really think there was anything going on there. I think the Kings would have done it for, like, just dead money, no assets. Maybe they would have considered. I just shouldn't say. I think they would have done it. I think they would have considered it for, like, Zach Levine and a second or something like that. Nothing that Memphis would do was there for them. And I don't know, man. That's. I didn't hear. I don't think Miami was really in on it. I'm trying. I'm struggling. What other teams were. Even Milwaukee, I'm not sure. They were up to so many things. I'm not really sure if there was anything there that. What other teams were mentioned?
- [75:40]
Kevin Pelton
Toronto, maybe.
- [75:41]
Zach Lowe
I don't think anything was there either. I don't know. You know, and now it just becomes like, when he comes back from this injury, when he briefly came back, like, in the. What did. He came back in one of the Europe games, and then a little bit after that, he looked like, engaged and playing hard. And now the trade deadline has passed, and he's still the Grizzly and the coach is still the coach. We'll see. Okay. Pick a winner or a loser.
- [76:05]
Kevin Pelton
Yeah. I also don't really have a good feel of, like, what the Grizzlies look like the rest of the season in terms of filling the Jerry and Jackson Jr. Void.
- [76:12]
Zach Lowe
So do they have any big men on their team that are they trade. Even Jock Landale is on the Hawks. I thought it was, like, a sneaky, good acquisition for the Hawks. Do the Grizzlies have a big man, like a center who's ambulatory, have a legitimate center? I. Ed's hurt. Clark is hurt.
- [76:29]
Kevin Pelton
Yeah, it doesn't appear so.
- [76:30]
Zach Lowe
Taylor Hendricks is like. I think profiles now is a backup five. They don't have any centers, unless you count Kyle Anderson as a backup for all these fours who are fives.
- [76:39]
Kevin Pelton
Santi Alama, I guess.
- [76:41]
Zach Lowe
I mean, I'll tell you this about Santi Alama. People who don't watch the Grizzlies. Santiago Dama has, like, a lack of conscience. Conscience as a shooter as. As. As wide as any player in the NBA. That dude shoots with the confidence of Michael Jordan. And I love it. Like, I'm. I'm Happy to watch it. He just will let it fly at all times. All right, winner, loser, let's do a.
- [77:08]
Kevin Pelton
Winner because we've done a few losers. I I think the 2027 Eastern Conference race got somewhat more interesting based on all of this because to your earlier point, the Pistons, these other teams kept the powder dry. Obviously the Pacers make the move for Evita Zubac, which probably has a significant impact, might have the most impact on the 26:27 playoff race of anything that happened before the deadline. Obviously it doesn't matter this year, but next year. Quite interesting. And then Boston with their ability to get out of the luxury tax this year because it means they will not be in the repeater tax in 2627 gives them the opportunity to use some of these trade exceptions, that sort of thing. Add back up in terms of salary, maybe resign Nikola Vucevic or use him in a sign in trade and I think we'll see a much stronger top of the Eastern Conference in 2027 than we did this year in part because of what's transpired this way week.
- [78:05]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, very exciting stuff across all of those teams. Can I, can I pick another winner?
- [78:12]
Kevin Pelton
Sure.
- [78:13]
Zach Lowe
You, me, Bill Simmons, the Flying Knipple siblings and everybody associated with the Charlotte Hornets because they are making the play in tournament. They're one game behind the Bulls who made a whole bunch of trades that will make their team worse. They stole Kobe White from the Bulls for Colin Sexton and some second round picks. That's an upgrade. They then recouped a couple of second round picks by helping Orlando duck the Tax and taking Tyus Jones. The Hawks are like man, the the Hornets are on fire. They've been a legitimately, really good team for a third of an NBA season. Now they're coming for a play in spot and they get in there. Let's say the Hawks are in there with them, the Magic, the Heat. They could absolutely get into the playoffs. And if they're like this starting five is pretty legit with Bridges and Diabate. They just upgraded their bench with Kobe White like they could. They're going to put a scare into someone in the first round if they get into the playoffs. Like entertainment value of The Eastern Conference first round goes up like 4,000% if the Hornets are in it.
- [79:21]
Kevin Pelton
Yeah, especially if Eric Collins and Dell Curry, now that they've both got national gigs, are involved in calling some of those games. And that's one of the best parts. Especially because they've been playing all of these early games where they've been all by themselves on league pass and I've just been sitting on the couch during the afternoon watching the Hornets and watching Eric Collins lose his mind. It's great stuff. And Dell Curry highlight every player who wears number 30 in the entire league. I mean they're tremendous fun to watch. I'm so glad that those guys have a team worthy of their excitement and their talent for the first time since LaMelo Balls first two seasons in the league and they are legit. One of the interesting storylines in the season to me is there was so many of these teams that came into the year with these uncertain depth charts at center based on their off season. Boston, Charlotte, Indiana, all in the East. I mean obviously Charlotte's goals were different than those other teams or their track record. But people who hadn't seen Musa d' Abate who were not watching league pass. Yeah, the musiers have added to the entertainment quotient. People who were watching grinding League Pass in 24:25 didn't know. But Moussa Diabate is really good. Ryan Kolkbretter has been very solid for them. Better I think defensively than I expected him to handle the tradition, the transition to the NBA. So you look at them. Boston did end up making the move for Nikola Vucevic to upgrade their center rotation, but have gotten really credible play from Nimius Kada and Luka Garza in that spot. And then Indiana, it's like the complete opposite where you know even though Jay Huff is blocking all the shots, he's not making enough of the threes consistently and therefore they went out and made one of the most aggressive moves of the deadline. Whereas those other two teams, you know, again Boston a smaller move and Charlotte didn't need to do anything at center.
- [81:10]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, I mean Boston center rotation was the one and only reason I was pessimistic about their team. I took the under at 41 and a half. I think I'm going to be wildly wrong. Their centers have been awesome. Diabate was always good to your point. I think there first of all he was a bat, he was a good backup and I think there was some curiosity of could he be a starter? Would he be? He did not open the season as a starter. I don't think Charlotte expected him to hold up these undersized as a five hold up like this for 30 minutes a game if need be. He's been absolutely outstanding, like the hardest playing player in the NBA and just an awesome guy to watch. And the moose antlers come up a few times a game. It has been really interesting. I like the Vucovic move for Boston and you're right, Indiana's center situation didn't pan out. I think. Anything on the Kobe White fit in Charlotte. I mean they have a lot of perimeter shot creation but just any hedge against Lamelo missing a few games with his ankle or just fortifying the bench. I think he's an upgrade over Sexton. I but to me it's like pretty obviously a nice trade for them.
- [82:16]
Kevin Pelton
I think so too. I was a little surprised when I went to go look at it like o Sexton's actually been like a lot more efficient than Kobe.
- [82:22]
Zach Lowe
He's been. Yeah, he's actually been good this year. You're right.
- [82:25]
Kevin Pelton
And their assist rates are closer than I would have thought. Like the career are pretty different. But it's mostly because of Sexton's Cleveland days. Since he got to Utah they've been pretty comparable. So I was kind of surprised by that. But the all in one metrics. Still love the impact on Chicago's on off white has had. And I guess is this where we talk about the fact that Chicago finally traded all the guys and didn't get any first round picks?
- [82:50]
Zach Lowe
Let's talk about Chicago because they're one of my. They traded lots of people. They got nine second round picks. I think they got Rob Dillingham, nice second draft guy. Jaden Ivey, nice second draft guy. Simons expiring. Whatever. We'll see. I'm sure Leonard Miller, we'll see what he amounts to. And they traded White, Desumnu, Vuchovic. Am I forgetting anybody? I mean Dale and Terry, some other guys. Julian Phillips that went in and out.
- [83:26]
Kevin Pelton
Yeah, it was half their roster. They'd even traded Leonard Miller's brother who was on a two way for them. So that was an interesting week.
- [83:33]
Zach Lowe
And you know, some of the seconds they got, like the four seconds they got from Minnesota for Desumnu. Two of them are crappy. Denver second this year, Cleveland second next year, I think. And then two of them could be good. They're like the most favorable of X teams in 2031 or 2032. And so I, I texted a lot of people I trust around like, can you explain to me like what the Bulls are doing? And the explanation that I got back was obvious. I understood it already. But it was, well, they're just accumulating assets. They're finally in asset accumulation mode. They're. They're maybe tanking the rest of the season. They have huge amounts of cap space every summer Going forward to do who knows what with like. Yeah, I get that. I get that. That's obvious. It's too late for them to tank the season. They're way too far ahead in the standings of all these like nine teams that are legitimately taking the season. So they can't really do much there except hope to get Cooper flag like Lucky in the lottery moving up 10 spots. And more to the point, like I just. They traded an aging center in Vucovic. Right? That makes sense. That sort of rebuilding team does. They sold low and late. That should just be the Bull's motto for the season. Low and late after paying through the nose to get him. Fine. It happens. Some people hang on too long, cling to love. But then they traded at the a 25 year old guard who's pretty good in Kobe white and a 26 year old guard who's really good in IO Dasumnu and IT, it just leaves me wondering like what. What do they want? Like what kind of players do they want? What are they. They want Josh Giddey and they want Matas Bou Zelis. But what are they trying to do that both the old guy and some of the mid career young guys are all just rendered expendable for second round picks. I. I don't. I just kind of don't get it. Can you help me?
- [85:26]
Kevin Pelton
Yeah, I think that's fair. I mean I do think Jaden Ivy in their view does a lot of the same things as Kobe White. He doesn't do them as well yet. But to your point about age, he is still a couple years younger. You're getting younger in that spot and will probably be cheaper to re sign this off season as a restricted free agent. One of my winners of this was Clooney up messes and I thought it was funny. Zach Cram over at ESPN did the winners and loses today and he had that, you know, a version of that is his loser and I thought that was amusing that it all depends on your viewpoint on whether it's a good thing or a bad thing. Seth Partnow our buddy put it on social media on Blue sky is like a lot of teams were taking the walk of shame this week.
- [86:09]
Zach Lowe
I like that. I like that. Let's go through the walks of shame. Let's go through them. Yabu Sele Walk of shame yeah, the.
- [86:15]
Kevin Pelton
Kings with Schroder and Charic Lock of shame.
- [86:20]
Zach Lowe
Okay I no further comment.
- [86:22]
Kevin Pelton
I mean Anthony Davis is a pretty significant walk of shame. You're walking down a crowded street with that one. But I would also put Chicago trading Kobe White now in that list. It wasn't a mistake they made, but the decision to hang on to him and not when they could have gotten more value before is the walk of shame part of it. And the reason I put it is a winner of this besides for the fact that it made for a lot of Kaminga by the way is the other walk of shame.
- [86:50]
Zach Lowe
Wow, you're really is a lot and.
- [86:52]
Kevin Pelton
Maybe Porzingis too if we're being honest here. Double walk of shame.
- [86:57]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, my 2026 Hawks. It's a good run. We had a good run. There was a moment where they were like five games above.500 or something. It was great.
- [87:05]
Kevin Pelton
I'm right there at the 2026 Magic. You know we're still hoping for Franz.
- [87:08]
Zach Lowe
Wagner to get talk about it.
- [87:13]
Kevin Pelton
Jones by the way on the walk of shame list.
- [87:15]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, just get us on that was the single most predictable trade of the deadline was salary dumping Ty Jones.
- [87:21]
Kevin Pelton
Hunter Tyson was number one on my list.
- [87:23]
Zach Lowe
Oh, that's a good one.
- [87:24]
Kevin Pelton
And Charlotte I'm a little surprised didn't keep him because their depth behind Lamelo and Kobe White at point guard. You know Trey Mann and K.J. simpson have both been blower placement this year. So I would have just hung on to him but it's still good to get two seconds in that deal. Anyways, back to Chicago Bulls Bulls. The meme I thought of, I'm sure you've seen this online, is like when someone says the best time to delete this post was before you made it and the next best time is now. That's how I feel about the Chicago trades. Yes, they should have made these trades a long time ago, but given that Kobe White and IO Dasunma were headed to free agency getting something now as opposed to just letting them walk or you know, there used to be the whole like oh, you got to protect the asset by resigning players and I think that's off the board now because you just are in too much danger of locking yourself into a bad contract and the player loses their trade value.
- [88:17]
Zach Lowe
Is IO going to what is IO's contract going to be 20, I guess.
- [88:22]
Kevin Pelton
Tell me, tell me how he does in the playoffs this year.
- [88:24]
Zach Lowe
North of that. I mean, I mean I don't think.
- [88:27]
Kevin Pelton
He should get more than Nikhil Alexander Walker.
- [88:30]
Zach Lowe
I mean Nikhil Alexander Walker's contract is a bargain which we will get to and is relevant for this discussion. It's like 15 plus a year or something, right?
- [88:37]
Kevin Pelton
It's very relevant to this discussion.
- [88:39]
Zach Lowe
I mean this roster is now every trade deadline brings you one or two rosters where you look at it and you're like what is this? And the Bulls roster is now just like how did we arrive at this collection of players? And now they have to pretend, like they have to pretend for 30 games like we're trying to make a team out of this. You know, we'll see. Can Okoro play the four next to Jalen Smith and three small guards as if this there's any coherence to what's on this roster.
- [89:08]
Kevin Pelton
Yeah, it's island of the Misfit toys roster. Zuma is interesting because I wrote about this in the trade grades. Like you look at his box score stats rock solid. I mean outstanding efficiency this season, great defensive reputation, size to defend either guard spot on a very team friendly contract. But it's kind of fascinating when I was doing some research for a story that Zach Cram and I wrote last week where we talked about Paolo Banchero's track record, one of the things I looked at is guys who had had negative on offs their first four years in the NBA. Ayodhasunmu is in that group and is on track even though it's much better this year to make it five years in a row where the Bulls have been better without him on the court. And in an individual year, that doesn't tell you very much because there's a lot of randomness in that stat, particularly at the defensive end. But if it keeps happening over and over again, it does historically seem quite telling. So it'll be interesting to see how that translates in a new situation.
- [90:04]
Zach Lowe
I'm not letting you take the air out of my balloon. This was the guy that I most wanted Minnesota to get.
- [90:12]
Kevin Pelton
I was all in on Keon Ellis. That was my pickup in the mock.
- [90:17]
Zach Lowe
I think Keon Ellis sounds great. I like Keanu. He was one of my six most intriguing players last year before what happened at ESPN happened and the column never ran. I like Keon Ellis. He's. He's a reliable three point shooter, secondary ball handler, pretty good defender. How many minutes is he going to play in the playoffs for Cleveland this year? Is he going to get double? Is he going to average 10 minutes a game in the playoffs? He might.
- [90:43]
Kevin Pelton
I think they'll, there'll be matchups where they will need him. It's interesting because yeah, if you're throwing him out there with James Harden and Donovan Mitchell, which is weird to think about, you're pretty small on the perimeter. But Harden defends so Much bigger than he is that maybe that's a situation where you can make it work. Particularly if you know Jaylon Tyson is probably the guy if you've got that sort of like 6, 6, 6, 7 type of score. But if it's, you know, you're playing Philly and it's Tyrese Maxey that you need to defend, then maybe Kean Ellis is the better.
- [91:14]
Zach Lowe
That's true, you're right. But like I just think Desumu is demonstrably better than Kean Ellis. I like he can. He, he can. He'll have games where he scores 25 points. He's shooting 45% on threes. I know the defensive metrics aren't great. I think he's fine. I think he's a perfect fit In Minnesota. I don't think I like their starting five as is I was. I don't think they need like a traditional point guard. They just need some, some perimeter play off the, their bench. Just can't be nas read and a hope and a prayer every single night. And I just think he fits how they play perfectly. He attacks those like when they put, when ant runs a pick and roll and there's two on the ball and the defense sort of shrinks to him. All those little diagonal alleys to the rim open and he's such a great downhill driver. He's just perfect for what they need. And there is the argument that they had this kind of player in Nikhil Alexander Walker opted not to re sign him. He signs with the Hawks four years, 60 something million dollars, they retain NAS Reed and then they have to go through all of these hoops of salary dumping Mike Conley, trading four second round picks and blah blah to get Ayo Dasumnu, who is a free agent and will probably make more than Nikhil Alexander Walker on his next deal. Maybe you're right. Maybe it's exactly the same. They do end up saving money though because he's only making 6 million this year versus whatever Nikhil Alexander Walker is making this year. What do you think of that argument that this is all just a lot of noise to save the owner's money?
- [92:47]
Kevin Pelton
I mean, yeah, I will say Alexander Walker has been better in Atlanta than I expected. I was still a little bit skeptical of the three point shooting, how real it was. And you remember that there were moments in the first two rounds of last year's playoffs where his role shrunk a little bit because he was not contributing as much offensively before he had that awesome conference finals against the Thunder. So I, I thought he was more of, you know, six man on a good team than the quality starter that he has shown in Atlanta. So I, I can get that part of it. But the. And Nasrid obviously is very important for them. You know, even if he. He's never going to, you know, or is not projected as a starter anytime soon in that Minnesota setup. It was a tough spot.
- [93:30]
Zach Lowe
And.
- [93:31]
Kevin Pelton
And it is a considerable amount of money. Like you're talking about a $10 million difference this year, which.
- [93:37]
Zach Lowe
Plus taxes. Plus.
- [93:38]
Kurt Goldsberry
Right.
- [93:38]
Kevin Pelton
It's about 15 million in taxes, probably off the top of my head. So I get it from that standpoint. But you're right. You already had. We had IO Dasunmo at home.
- [93:51]
Zach Lowe
I'm just very excited for IO in Minnesota. This is my stealth title contender. It's been my stealth title contender all season. I was baking in a trade like this all along. This I'd like. Don't be surprised if the Wolves are. It's like two. Two conference finals. Wolves, Thunder. I like. I'm not going to pick them. I would pick them. I might like. Oklahoma City is the safe pick to win the West. It was my pick to win the title before the season. I think Denver, if they're healthy, is like now they're equal, although they've lost three games in a row. I think. And I'll, you know, Jokic minutes. How about Jokic? His minutes restriction, by the way, the fakest minutes restriction of all time.
- [94:29]
Kevin Pelton
But there was the one game where they were going to play Kobe less a few years or Kobe LeBron less a few years ago at the start of the year. And like game two, he blew past the minutes restriction and was like, no, this is not actually happening.
- [94:40]
Zach Lowe
But Aaron, Aaron Gordon's injury is a huge concern for me.
- [94:44]
Kevin Pelton
Peyton Watson's injury.
- [94:46]
Zach Lowe
Peyton Watson, you know, he, he. Have they set a timetable for that? I mean, he kind of was holding his hamstring and when he walked off the court. Right.
- [94:53]
Kevin Pelton
I haven't seen a timetable, but Tony Jones said, I believe Grade two, just as, as. As you were recording here.
- [94:59]
Zach Lowe
Oh, what does that mean? I don't know what that means. I mean, again, the. If they're all healthy together at the same time in the playoffs is. Is becoming a little more rickety. But I think they're Oklahoma City's equal. And after that, I might take the Bulls over the spurs and I would take them over the Rockets, I think. As for like Finals equity, what do you think?
- [95:25]
Kevin Pelton
I've been a little more skeptical. You know, early in the season they were sort of not playing that well against what was a relatively easy schedule. It is still going to get harder the rest of the way. They. But it has gotten harder and they've sort of risen to meet that challenge. They've played to the level of their opponent to a degree at times this season, which you know is not. Is a frustrating trend, but one that ultimately pays off in the playoffs. I, I really believe in San Antonio. I know that I think it's an interesting question in both conferences because my sort of sneaky championship contender most of the year would have been Cleveland. And then all of a sudden I looked at one thing the other day where they were favored to win the Eastern Conference after making the hardened trade, which is pretty wild. So I think, yeah, I think both San Antonio and Detroit, there's a degree of are we underselling these teams because of their youth and because we haven't seen them do in the playoffs before?
- [96:13]
Zach Lowe
I think we're 1,000% underselling Detroit. I think the questions about their offense and their spacing looking those issues being magnified in the playoffs are perhaps real, but they really know how to make up with it for it with size, rebounding, cutting, all of that. And they're just like, you don't win this many games by not being an awesome team. I'm looking at the FanDuel odds right now to win the East. Detroit plus 3:30. Cleveland plus 340. Boston plus 360. New York plus 400. I mean that's like a four way toss up. I picked the Knicks before the season. I don't even know what I think about the Knicks anymore. It's all, I just, my brain is a mess. I'll stick with them just because I have to stick to my picks. But I think for sure Detroit is being undersold as a legit finals contender. They're just tough as shit. They're deep. Herder will give them some optionality. I just, you know, their offense is going to have games where they're strangled a little bit and they need to figure out, they need to figure it out. Who did you pick before the season?
- [97:15]
Kevin Pelton
I also picked the Knicks. I mean they seemed sort of the safest pick at that point. And yeah, I mean Detroit, you know, very early on it was clear to me that they, they were legit, that what they were doing defensively, you poked around under the hood at the shot quality metrics and it's like this is not a fluke at all. This is, this is who they are going to be and they have remained that all season. And you know, with the Shea Gilgeous Alexander injury, like there's a real possibility Detroit has home court throughout the playoffs.
- [97:42]
Zach Lowe
That's true. Do you have any other winners or losers you were dying to get to here?
- [97:48]
Kevin Pelton
Should we talk quickly? I would say the non tax teams because so many teams ended up either getting all the way out of the tax or in Cleveland's case just massively decreasing their bills. So the tax distribution is going to be like around 4 million or so per team and a week ago or two weeks ago it was like 14. I hope that's a pretty good thing.
- [98:09]
Zach Lowe
I hope they're okay. I've been thinking about them all day. Hope they're all right.
- [98:15]
Kevin Pelton
Thoughts and prayers the the team. The other winner that I wanted to talk about is Harden and Anthony Davis because you mentioned on the pod the other day with Bobby that you know, Harden keeps doing this at the end of his contract and getting himself to a position where he's going to get paid again. Jimmy Butler, kind of a similar thing over the last few years here. Anytime that he is due for an extension or about to hit free agency and I do think players are starting to learn the lesson you can't just count on well because I'm on this team, this team is going to pay me. You got to get to where you're valued most. And I think Davis, it clearly didn't seem like an extension was coming in Dallas, which is why the trade happened. And now a much better chance of getting paid in Washington alongside Trey Young.
- [99:05]
Zach Lowe
That's a good one. I'm all out. You have anything else? I'm all, I'm all trade deadlined out.
- [99:12]
Kevin Pelton
I'm weirdly catching my second wind here. I guess I'm, I'm, I'm fascinated. I, I don't know whether the, the Wizards are a winner or a loser of the trade deadline. But like what they're attempting to me is quite interesting. A stat I tried to go look up last night is like, you know, teams that won the equivalent of 25 games or fewer in a season and then got the most older the next year. Like what were teams like that? And there are a lot of recent teams that have successfully pulled that off. Houston in the 2324 season, Detroit last year, San Antonio last year qualified for that. And what I think is interesting is with the exception of the spurs, who got the second best player on their team as a much more experienced veteran, in those cases it was all we're putting role players around our young players to make those young players pop. It was to accentuate Kade Cunningham and yeah Cade Cunningham and eventually Amen Thompson Washington, unless you are a really big Alex Sar believer, their two best players next year are going to be Trae Young and Anthony Davis. Who knows how much they will have played this season. Maybe not at all. And it's going to be a fascinating experiment to fit the young talent around these two kind of singular figures at their respective spots.
- [100:41]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, I talked about it with Goldsberry. I don't remember anything quite like this. The Rockets last year when they hit the gas were with Van Vliet and who am I forgetting? Yeah was the sort of analog for Washington, like that'll be them next year. But the Rockets young players were in Shen Goon's case more proven I think already at that time than anyone on the Wizards before last season and just more intriguing. And the roster like Eason was like more of an NBA ready player than anything. I don't remember anything like what Washington is trying to do, but I'm here for it. I think it's interesting.
- [101:18]
Kevin Pelton
I was thinking about Brooklyn when they added Darren Williams. I guess maybe they were still in New Jersey at that point and they were trying to do it with Darren Williams and Dwight Howard. But those also maybe were those are guys closer to their prime than Davis is and it was a little bit different of an element like Brooklyn was developing their young players more as role players and traded some of the best of them in Derek Favors to get Darren Williams. So it's all quite fascinating to me how it's going to work in Washington.
- [101:46]
Zach Lowe
But you had a great Brooklyn call out in your trade grades today that I also immediately thought of which is this Pacers Clippers trade with the double protection 1 to 4 and 10 to 30. And I immediately thought of the Nets trading Portland a top three protected pick in whatever draft that was that Damian Lillard was in and Billy King coming out and saying well we only think there are three really good players in this draft so if it falls outside the top three, we don't. We're not really with Gerald Wallace is the player who came back to Brooklyn in that trade and Damon Lillard fell outside the the top three and Gerald Wallace did a whole lot of nothing for the Brooklyn Nets. Walk down memory lane. Kevin Pelton, it's wonderful to see you. The beard looks great. The Sonics memorabilia looks great as always and I wish your Seattle Seahawks, I always want to call them the Super Seahawks because that's just Seattle Super. Something is ingrained in my brain. They're just the Seahawks, or as my friend Nate from college calls them, the Sea Turkeys. I wish them luck in the Super Bowl.
- [102:45]
Kevin Pelton
I mean, when they're in the Super Bowl, I think you do have to say they're the Super Seahawks. But I guess we should say we buried the lead here. The real winner of the trade deadline is that Washington's new governor met with Adam Silver today. So, you know, maybe we're were like inching incrementally closer to the NBA back in Seattle.
- [103:08]
Zach Lowe
It would be. It needs to happen. We all know it needs to happen. And Kevin Pelton will. But they should just hire you to be the GM of the team. How about that? Kevin Pelton, it's great to see you. Enjoy life post trade deadline. Have a nice pina colada on the beach. Good luck in the Super Bowl.
- [103:21]
Kevin Pelton
All right. Thanks as always for having me. Good to do this again.
- [103:26]
Zach Lowe
All right, that's it for the Zach Lowe show this week. Trade deadline is over. Relax, have a beer. Have a glass of wine. Thank you to Kurt Goldsberry, Kevin Pelton, Mike, Billy, Jonathan and Chris on production. Thanks to all of you for listening to and or watching the Zach Lowe Show. We'll see you next week as we unpack the post trade deadline landscape. In the NBA, 21 are over in President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or H18 and over in President D.C. kentucky Air, Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.orgchattincut or is it mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland? Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050. For 24. 7 supportive Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York for Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7867.
- [104:27]
Kurt Goldsberry
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Kevin Pelton
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Kurt Goldsberry
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Kevin Pelton
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Kurt Goldsberry
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Kevin Pelton
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