Zach Lowe (2:43)

Too violent for the low family. Speaking of tension, anger, potential violence, Jonathan Kaminga. It is Jonathan Kaminga Day, January 15, and fresh as we start this, I wonder where this leak came from. Tim Legler. Jonathan Kaminga has demanded a trade away from the Golden State Warriors. According to Sham Strania, the most anticlimactic trade demand in NBA history and right up there with Furcon Cork Maz in Philadelphia. In the illustrious tradition of people who barely play and yet think they have the leverage to demand a trade to a frothy trade market. I don't think there is much imminent for the warriors who all you got to do is listen to their coach talk about the state of their team. He knows they know they are not in the championship conversation. They're not particularly close to it. It's a big L for us. Tim Legler, the Jonathan Kaminga era. We were on team. Jonathan Kaminga is good. Jonathan Kaminga has not been good enough this season in these paltry opportunities he's had to play. And now the warriors have to figure out where, when, how, what actually can we get back?

Tim Legler (3:53)

Oh my goodness. This is, I mean, first of all, you're right, it's talk about anticlimactic. He guy's been completely removed from the rotation. He's basically been on a four year audition as I describe it every single night. You and I both thought the talent was tantalizing. I thought Kaminga was going to become a player. He's still so young. You don't want to write off the possibility that he goes somewhere and blossoms to a greater extent than he's been able to in Golden State. Their frustration with him and the things that were non negotiables for them that he needed to improve, he didn't improve to the point that on a team that is three games over.500, they've completely removed a guy that has a physical profile of exactly what they need, a bigger, more athletic wing. And yet they've completely taken him out of the rotation. It tells you all you need to know about the frustration level with the coaching staff at the front office with Jonathan Kaminga. And obviously the trade of Kaminga is imminent. We've known that from. So for him to now demand it, yeah, it is kind of like overkill like we knew this is coming. So the bigger question is for you, Zach, I think. Do you think Jonathan Kaminga has something in him that can blossom in another place? And maybe that's hail, maybe that's a lottery bound team, but he gets to play every night, 30 minutes and put up some numbers, but at least, you know, kind of show you every night like what he's capable of as opposed to what he's doing now, which is basically sitting there collecting dust. And just what you saw of him in Golden State, the course of his career. Do you think there is more in there based on his age and his talent level and his physical profile? And where possibly would that be?

Zach Lowe (5:41)

First of all, just a great execution of the you can't fire me, I quit Game plan by Jonathan Kaminga demanding a trade today. I demand out of here. You all want me, I demand out. Maybe Joe Lacob doesn't want him out. Actually, I do think there's something to Kaminga. I just think this whole situation is so bad for him in every possible way. Always tough For a top 10 score, first pick to go to a win now team, but particularly so a team that has won so much and plays a system that is so sort of antithetical to how he, I think would want to play. But I think he has to go through his own version of the transformation that Aaron Gordon went through in his career. And Aaron Gordon at sort of stage one was a better, more polished player than Jonathan Kaminga is now. But I just think he needs to lean in like he wants to play the way he did in the Minnesota Timberwolves series or he was the team's leading scorer. Boy, what a shift. To go from leading scorer in the second round series to out of the rotation and like six months flat. You know, take, take, you know, take the Kobe shots, the fade away, twos back, people down, turn around, jumpers, drives to the rim. The drive should still stay, but like put him with a spacing five and let him screen and roll and make plays in the short roll dial into defense and rebounding. If he had done that, he'd be playing. If Steve Kerr trusted him on defense, he'd be playing. That's really the bottom line. But we'll get back to the Warriors. I do that. You know, someone pitched me. Michael Porter Jr. Has been sort of the hot name for the warriors and I'll go rapid fire with you through through some trade stuff later, but someone pitched me moody Kaminga and a pick and maybe some salary filler. This person pitched Me, a Pajemski. I think that's too much. And. And one first round pick for Michael Porter Jr. And at first blush I was like, boy from the Nets. I kind of want a little bit more than that. This guy's playing at an all star level. But a Warriors pick has some value because of the age of the team. This is not like you're getting a pick from a young, up and coming team that's going to be good for five straight years. Moody just feels like it's not happening. Just he's like too mechanical for how the warriors want to play. It's an interesting one. Michael Porter Jr. Would really help the warriors, but it has been really just eye opening. And Steve Kersh tried to walk it back a little bit in a couple recent interviews, but to hear him just come out and say things like anyone hoping we can compete with the best teams in the west, it's like not really realistic for us. Now, I happen to agree with him, but saying it out loud is like a whole different thing. Anyway, Kaminga era in Golden State.

Tim Legler (8:11)

RIP yeah, look, you think about what he did last year in the Minnesota series. I think I'm glad you referenced that because I actually called both of those games, at least one of them. I think I was there for two in a row. I think it was both of those games. But you think about what he went through at the end of the year. Last year, he basically again was taken out of the rotation. Remember, he didn't even play in their important games they had to win. Prior to the play in, he only played three games, made three appearances in the Houston series, which went seven games, wasn't playing in the Minnesota series. Curry goes down and they go, oh, Jonathan, we need you. And I made a joke, he stood up and I saw a dust cloud fly into the air because he'd been sitting there so long. And he comes out, all he does is give him a 30 point game, 26 point game in that series and against a Minnesota defense that it required like that level of athleticism and just raw ability to score against that defense. At that time, Jimmy Butler was dealing with some injuries, so he wasn't very good in that series. Pajemski wasn't very good. Draymond Green. So here's Kaminga not playing at all. This is how talented he is. He gets up. I'm not even sure at that point his shoes were probably not tied. As he's sitting there thinking, another night I'm not playing. And then all of a sudden, oh, you know, Kaminga, you're in, gets up, laces up, rips off the sweats, goes out and drops 30 on a defense that good. So the talent is like there. But I thought maybe he had a breakthrough at the beginning of the year. I know the off season and the contract and all that, it was kind of contentious. But then Steve Kerr, if you remember at the beginning of the year was like, he's earned a place to starting him.

Zach Lowe (9:46)

Yeah, we're starting him and it was.

Tim Legler (9:47)

Going to be a start. And he basically said he earned that. It wasn't like they had nobody else and they signed him late and they're just like, oh, well, we have Kaminga. I mean this. He knows the system. We'll throw him out there. No, he said he earned it. And we did a Warriors game early in the year and I was like, this is a great sign for Kamingo. Now, you know, can he maintain it? Man, oh man. To go from what he did in the Minnesota series to the contract getting resolved to then how you're starting at the beginning of the year to literally not playing, no sightings of Jonathan Kaminga whatsoever and now obviously going to be out the door. It's incredible to me, he's so, still so young, 23 years old. He's 23 years old. So look, I want Jonathan Kaminga to go somewhere else and have an opportunity to play 30 minutes every night the rest of the season and let's see. And maybe it's not a bad team. Maybe he doesn't have the winning components that Kerr wants. He, you know, Kerr loves the things that like Pajemski does, like the 50, 50 balls and the box out on a three point shooter. And like all those things when his name comes up, like Kerr glows about the things he does for him. To Guy Santos. Steve Kerr's eyes light up talking about Guy Santos and the things he does to help you win. So he doesn't feel that way about Kaminga. Obviously the organization doesn't. Maybe he doesn't do those things. But I do know this. There's a lot of guys in the league that maybe don't do those like, you know, finishing touch type things, winning plays that are still very talented players that deserve to be in rotations and playing and contributing and being productive. I think Kaminga can be that. I just don't know where that's going to be. But it's time, man. This has run its course well beyond run its course. It's time for Jonathan Kaminga to put on a Different uniform and not feel like he's, he's auditioning every single time he takes the court. So I'm anxious to see where he ends up and what he can do.

Zach Lowe (11:34)

Let me just put a bow on the Michael Porter Jr. Stuff before I forget. I do think the Nets, if I had to guess, I think the Nets would trade him if they got one good first round pick as part of the deal and maybe a player they think is useful either for them or to flip down the line because they can then say, well, well, Cam Johnson got us X amount of draft assets that were now spinning forward and forward and forward. Not sure Golden State is going to be the team for Michael Porter Jr. As much as good as the fit as they might, I'm sure they'll look at it. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. He, I mean he brings in a skill that they need at an A plus level. Everything else I'm not sure, you know, Milwaukee will be mentioned for him and, and just sort of any sort of distressed high salary player. But I've made the case before. I do think there's a case for the Nets to keep Michael porter. He's only 27 years old. He only has one more year left on deal. I don't think his next contract is going to be crazy because of his health concerns. So I'll be interested to see what they do. But my gut is they're just an asset accumulation mode. Okay, let's turn to the two slightly to very unhappy super well stars who have dominated the trade and injury headlines. Both injured over the last two days, starting with Anthony Davis. What a saga on the Anthony Davis front. All occurring during a Verizon outage yesterday that messed up my life. Or maybe it was two days ago. Verizon, let me just tell you, Verizon, let me, let me just tell you. Trade deadline or July 1st. That happens. I'm getting a new carrier. Okay, you get, you get a, you get a one day like forgiveness slip for yesterday, which was not ideal for me on a personal level. I'm not going to get into that. But anyway.

Tim Legler (13:10)

Hey listen, real quick on that. I gotta, I gotta chime in on that. So I was kind of unaware. I was in my room doing a lot of work prepping for the game. My phone was kind of put off to the side and then I had some interviews to do that I had promised with people about the league. On the way to the arena in Philly to call the game. I was gonna take a 30 minute ride in I'm like, well, I'll just knock out a couple of these interviews. And that's the first time I noticed it. I was like, getting into the car to go to the arena and I looked at my phone. I'm like, what's this SOS up in the corner here? That's weird. And then I looked around and every. It was weird. It was like a movie scene. Like an M. Night Shyamalan movie scene. Everybody at the same time is, like, looking at their phones and it was like gab heart palpitations for a second. Like, what's happening? And it lasted hours, man. I don't think I got bars again until, like, after 5:00'. Clock. I finally was able to, like, text with my wife and, like, check in on people and make sure everybody was okay. It was a really bizarre situation. So I'm glad that you mentioned that because that was very disruptive in our industry. Yeah, especially you, man. Like, that's. That's a pretty critical thing.

Zach Lowe (14:17)

It was. It was a strange day. Okay. Anthony Davis. Quite a saga. He is likely to have surgery, according to Shams. But then, wait, Anthony Davis fights back on Twitter.

Nikais Duncan (14:27)

Lies.

Zach Lowe (14:28)

Lies. And then, oh, my God, he doesn't need surgery and he would still be interested slash able to be traded to a team that is in playoff contention. This certainly feels to me like Anthony Davis agents at clutch trying to get him to a team that A, has some hopes of winning something in the short term, and B, might pay Anthony Davis when he's eligible for a contract extension this summer, an extension that I would personally want almost no part of. And then Shams on ESPN finally mentions Toronto and Atlanta as the teams that are most interested in Anthony Davis. I'm not sure how interested either of those teams is actually or should be in Anthony Davis, but let's start with the Raptors. You can make A. You could make an easy trade with the Raptors. I just don't know what the appeal of it would be for the Mavericks, but here's a trade that works right away. Brandon Ingram plus Jakob Ertel. Almost an exact salary match, which is a big deal because the Mavericks are over the tax and the Raptors are just a bit over the tax and probably actually want to get under it. They're less than a million over the tax. And then I think Dwight Powell has to come back into that deal to make the salaries exactly match. So basically, Purdle and Ingram for ad. Do I have to throw in a draft pick if I'm the Raptors? Because, you know, Bi's been good this year, but he's got three more years left at 40 a pop two after this one player option at the end of it and the Portal contract, which I found inexplicable the moment they signed his extension is five more years at okay Money. But he's hurt a lot, including like a lot of this season and he's just like fine. I don't know if I'm that excited to have him in 2030 for $27 million, even though that's like 14% of the projected cap. I don't know. Does that do anything for you? I mean, for the Raptors I could see it like as good as here's the argument for the Raptors, as good as BI has been for us, we have a lot of guys who need the ball and the value of an elite defensive center replacing the sort of carousel of guys trying to fill that position. By the way, Murray Boyles is playing his ass off right now as a stopgap five that's more valuable to us than what BI is giving us now. I just, I don't see why Dallas does that and I don't, I don't really see anything there.

Tim Legler (16:51)

What do you so let's talk about the Raptors first because I heard a different trade scenario and tell me if this is some. You know, I was doing a lot of research on this yesterday trying to see in the Raptors with the team that I was really diving into. So I heard another trade proposal. I'm going to comment on yours in a second, but I heard quickly or Purdl and RJ Barrett for ad Is that not something that works? Because that's a trade scenario that I saw and I like that one more for the Raptors than I do the one you proposed. Now look AD for me and yeah, I heard you say that you wouldn't want any part of that extension that he's going to be looking for and I completely agree with you. And here we are dealing again with an Anthony Davis injury and I don't know that how any person can reasonably think and expect that Anthony Davis is going to have some significant stretch of good health coming up his way like and he'll put together a three year stretch of playing 70 to 75 games. It's silly to think that that's going to happen. Now Brandon Ingrams had his share of inj. He's been healthy this year. So do you think that, okay, maybe this is the start of something for Ingram or do you think, hey man, they're 25 and 17. He's played pretty much every game. I think he's missed two games and it's, it's coming. So maybe the second half of the year looks different for the Raptors. If he goes down because an injury is coming with Brandon Ingram at some point or you think, hey man, you know, he's young enough maybe, maybe he can have a few years now where he's healthy. If that's the case. I like what he's brought to Toronto. They didn't have what he brings at all. This is a guy that's got an answer to basically any personnel matchup in front of him, any scheme because of his ability to shoot off the dribble, his length, his mid range game and he's clearly given them an offensive dynamic they did not have. By the way, they're third ranked defensive team in the league. This is a team that gets after defenses so the numbers have been really good. Defensively he has given them an answer. I know they got some guys that also, like you said, need the ball and quickly and Barrett and these different guys. Scotty, not so much. He's more of a jack of all trades guy that finds ways to score without running stuff for him. Ingram has given them an element to their offense, man to finish off possessions and to win ISOs and that stuff. I love what he's brought to that team. I love the fact that he's played every game. I like his age certainly a lot better than Anthony Davis's. I think both guys are injury prone. I don't like that as much for Toronto bringing in Anthony Davis to that situation when I almost can guarantee you, first of all, you don't know what you're going to get this year and then just every year you're kind of just waiting for the next injury. So I don't like that as much. If it cost you quickly or pertle one of those two plus RJ Barrett, I like that one a little bit more. I think the risk there is worth it for the Toronto Raptors without having to give up Ingram.

Zach Lowe (19:39)

Interesting. A couple of things. You're dead on on bi.

Nikais Duncan (19:42)

He's.

Zach Lowe (19:43)

He's the bucket getter and they like Scotty Barnes can do that sometimes. But it's not just sort of the natural way he plays it. It's nice to have a bucket. As unsexy as some of the on off numbers are with Ingram this year like there have been I think better with him off the floor. He's a bucket getter. RJ Barrett is more of a second side. The offense is already flowing, get him the ball on the move and he's kind of a jack of all trades in a way that I like. But in that, in that scenario, the reason I didn't put quickly in the deal is I just don't know why Dallas wants four years of Emmanuel Quickley at 32 and a half million dollars a year. I just think that contract right now is a sort of like I got not like almost a stay away for the rest of the league. Like he's fine, he's been wildly inconsistent, kind of hasn't improved very much. Like I don't. And that contract was very much a bet on him improving. I agree with you. I think it's probably doesn't make a ton of sense for you to. Like I said, I don't really know. I think, I don't really know how interested Toronto is. Atlanta I think is the more interesting one. Atlanta can, can do a trade where it's Canard and Porzingis. So a guy who's not playing much for you in poor Zingus and a guy who sometimes plays a lot sometimes plays a little and then they need one little minimum salary in there to make the math work. Now that trade would put Atlanta over the tax, which is not a place I don't think they want to be. So that's one consideration. And then you have Anthony Davis and you can bring, you can start him, bring a Congo off the bench. You can play the both of them together. You're clearly a better team. Here's where I am with Atlanta. I would just do nothing. If I were the Hawks, I think I would just do nothing because Anthony Davis is a very good player. He makes $54 million this year, 58 next year, has a player option for 62 million. I wouldn't extend him. And I could see as part of these trade talks, Anthony Davis and his agents doing something like if you don't want to extend me, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to opt in to $63 million in the last year of my contract if you don't extend me. And if, if I don't do that, I'm like, if you don't want me to do that, you've got to extend me. And even if it's like 30, 40 a year, way below my max, I want some long term security. I don't like any of those scenarios for Atlanta as much as, as much as I like. Let me stamp, Pat, do nothing. See where this Pelicans pick ends up in the lottery because that's, that's the critical. Not that they're trading that pick to Dallas. No. No chance in hell. I don't think you're trading it to anybody except maybe for Giannis, and I think that's not going to happen this season. I want to see where that pick lands and I want to revisit my life when I know where that pick is. If it's number five, that means something different to me. If it's number one, that means something different to me. I want to know where it is and then I want to get to the summer with my cap sheet, clean my total flexibility going forward and figure out what the next iteration of the team is. Now, that also may involve a short term extension for CJ McCollum, which I wouldn't rule out because that makes him an interesting trade vehicle and salary filler if Giannis does become available in the summer. And on top of that, if I do extend C.J. and I have Anthony Davis now, I'm way over the tax and I don't want any part of that. I just want to chill and do nothing and reassess my situation and the honest situation and the Pelicans pick. And if I don't make the playoffs that year, this year, that's cool. Like, I don't think Anthony Davis plus Dyson Daniels plus Risa Shay plus Jalen Johnson. I just, it's not turning me into a team that could win the east this year, given his injury situation. I'm out.

Tim Legler (23:27)

I completely agree with your take on what Atlanta should do. I wouldn't do that if I were Atlanta. The trade that I was looking at was Porzingis research and a pick.

Zach Lowe (23:38)

They're not going to, they're not going to trade recess for Davis. As blah as he's been. They're not doing it.

Tim Legler (23:43)

I mean, he didn't really take a jump this year, but he's. You're still talking about the number one pick in the draft. Here's what, here's what if I'm Atlanta, here's where I'm looking at it. Jalen Johnson is turning into a star I think should be an All Star this year. And he's now the guy that you're like, your eyes are glued to every night. So they've got a guy that like the fan base is kind of into. He's so young. He's grown exponentially just really in the last year. What this guy's added to his game, there's no telling what he could be in two years from now. Hold on to that. Nikhil Alexander Walker came in and showed you that, like, there's a whole nother level to his ceiling offensively, the way that he's played this year. You still have Dyson Daniels. You have Recesse. If I'm Atlanta, now that you've moved on from the Trey Young era in Atlanta, let's see what this is. And look, hold on to the pick. If that means, hey, Anthony Davis gets moved somewhere else and you missed out on the Anthony Davis thing, okay, you're going to be fine. Because I've got a lot. I've got a lot of skepticism how that will turn out for any team that trades for Anthony Davis just based on his lack of availability and the money that he's going to be owed and what he's going to need in return if he ends up a place in terms of getting more money, a longer term, that's a massive risk for an organization based on Anthony Davis's, you know, history with injuries. So if I'm Atlanta, I'm not biting on that. I like this Young group that I've got right now, particularly now. You can build around a guy like Jalen Johnson and what he has become. I'm not. I'm not taking the bait on Anthony Davis.

Zach Lowe (25:18)

Speaking of Trae Young, by the way, the Wizards, I don't know if they announced it or Sean's reported it. He will be. I think they announced it. Trae Young will be out until after the All Star break, nursing all of the devastating injuries, injuries he suffered toward the end of his tenure in Atlanta. The most predictable. Oh, yeah, we really like this guy. We think he can help our young players get easier shots. We're totally, like, not going to tank the whole season because we won too many games with C.J. mcCollum. And we got Trey in his spot. Now he's. Yeah, we, we. We want the player now. That could be true. And there could be an extension this summer and they could be talking about next year in regards to all those basketball reasons they traded for Trae Young. But just, like, don't, you know, don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining. We. You're going to sit Trey Young. We know that. All right, let's move on to the Bucks, a team that I had mentioned way, way back when, Nico Harrison got fired. On my long list of Anthony Davis potential trade destinations, when it's clear, when it was clear already then that the Mavericks were going to have to detonate this thing and tank. And by the way, they're tanking. The Jazz are blatantly tanking already. I think the Grizzlies with Zach Edy they mentioned they announced he's going to be out six more weeks and John Morant, which we'll get to, I think they're going to go a little bit in a tankish direction, although, which is great news for the surging LA Clippers, who are going to make the play and probably on their own merits, but also by default. Now, I mentioned the Bucks for AD only because if they're going to buy one last time, and all indications are, at least as of now, and it hasn't gone great in the last week that they're going to try to buy one last time, it's going to be a high salary, somewhat distressed kind of player that they could get on the cheap. Anthony Davis is a big name, I don't think. I just don't see a deal there because he makes so much money. I'd put. They'd have to put Miles Turner in the deal. The Kuzma Portis poo poo platter everyone is sending everywhere doesn't get it done. So and I just don't know what's in that really for. I mean Miles Turner is fine. Maybe Dallas would be interested in that. I want to more more talk about Giannis and the booing his own fans thing when they were getting shellacked at home by Minnesota without Anthony Edwards and without Rudy Gobert, who was suspended. The Bucs, after starting off really well when Giannis came back from injury, have lost two in a row. They played the spurs tonight. Wemby versus Giannis. Can't miss tv. The Minnesota one was particularly dispiriting. They are now just five and four since Giannis came back for the season. I'm going to read you some like alarming numbers for the season. They are plus 10 per 100 possessions with Giannis on the floor, like dominant and minus 11 per 100 possessions when he sits a difference of 21 points since he came back in those nine games they're plus 13 with Giannis on the floor and minus 19.5 per 100 possessions with Giannis on THE BENCH. Total points plus 65 and nine games with Giannis on the floor minus 69 in those nine games with Giannis off the floor. Their roster just is not good enough. And the booing, the, the I'm booing my own fans. You know, all this stuff. If, if these losses I I have said from the beginning. I'm never slamming the door on a Giannis in season trade. I don't think he wants that. I certainly don't think they want that. I think the summer is where the rubber hits the road with the extension that they can offer him. But their next four games, San Antonio, Atlanta, Oklahoma City, Denver, I mean, they're 11th in the east still. If this gets uglier and uglier, the door cracks open just a little bit. But I mean, you, those numbers are astonishing and it just screams like the roster just is not close to good enough. And I don't really know what the solution is. Like, throw Zach Levine, throw Michael Porter Jr. Anthony Davis, whoever. Like, I'm not sure there's any. Anthony is out for an unknown period of time. Like, I'm not sure if there's anything that's fixing this beyond the point of, hey, maybe we can sneak in the play in and the east stinks. But they're so bad with him off the floor, it's almost incredible.

Tim Legler (29:36)

Yeah, the only, you know, in terms of like thinking about potentially, you know, having meaningful games later in the year, the only saving grace is like Chicago is not a great team. There are two games in front of them and I don't think any of those teams behind them are going to like all of a sudden go on a roll. And we're Milwaukee, despite the schedule that you just mentioned, despite the fact that neither one of us like their roster, like, there's not much like about this roster at all. The only thing maybe you found out a little bit was Rollins can play. That's about all that came from it. You mentioned the numbers with Giannis on. Can I first talk about the other night, what happened in that game? So I'm just going to tell you from a player's perspective. If you are playing a team without Anthony Edwards and Rudy Gobert and you're down 30 in the first half, the only possible way that that can happen. It's not a matter of getting outplayed. That is a situation where nobody in that locker room, collectively, the group was remotely close to the right frame of mind that you had to have to go play that game. That's the only way that can happen, is your thought process, your mind, your state of readiness was non existent when that game began. And that's inexcusable. So for the fan base, man, I get it. You go out there to see that game, you buy tickets to the game. Maybe some of those people were ticked off because they wanted to see Anthony Edwards and they didn't get a chance to. Right. And his one appearance in Milwaukee this year, and maybe that's why they were like in a foul mood. But they have every right to react that way. If you play a team without their star and their starting center and you are down 30 at halftime. His reaction to that, when he got the AND one to start the second half and he's sitting there and he's basically saying, boo this, boo this, whatever. I mean, I don't. I don't know what that was about. It didn't really. I'm just like, that's a nothing to me. Like, whatever that was. That's just. That's just frustration boiling over from everybody in the building at that point because of how embarrassing that situation began. But I don't like the roster at all. I don't know that there's anything in any of the names that you just mentioned are going to remotely make it more intriguing to me. It's a bad situation. They're a really bad team of Giannis Antetokounmpo is not on the floor. Dominant. When he is on the floor. Their roster just isn't good enough for the guy to play normal minutes and have that team be competitive. Now can they linger around and possibly make the play and. Yeah, sure. Because of the team that they're trying to catch, mainly. And that's Chicago. I think Atlanta is going to be better than that. So I don't think they're going to catch them. So can they. Can they catch Chicago? Yeah, probably. And be a playing team and either win a game and then lose the next game or lose right away and done for the year.

Zach Lowe (32:19)

That's.

Tim Legler (32:19)

That's like, to me, their ceiling for the season. So if you want to go ahead and make some sort of a trade to bring in a name and a contract at this stage to try to accomplish that, have at it. I don't think that that's the solution for the Bucks either.

Zach Lowe (32:32)

Yeah, I didn't care much about the booing. I just think again, it's. We've seen other. Like Julius Randle gave the thumbs down some baseball players, but it happens. His explanations after the game were very labored, as they always are. Like, it's just. It doesn't make a lot of what he says. I'm like, what? You're talking about the family dinner table? I don't get it.

Tim Legler (32:48)

I do.

Zach Lowe (32:49)

It is interesting to revisit the Kuzma trade for them because Middleton has been such a zero and clearly coming toward the end of his career health wise for the Wizards that I kind of started wondering like did they actually as as bad as Kuzma was last season? He's been okay this year. Like he's shooting 58% on twos. The three is not is 32% and teams sometimes guard him with their centers and just say go ahead, go ahead and shoot. But he's at least contributing and Middleton really isn't. But then like Kuzma's contract is a little bit more problematic. Middleton would have been an expiring for them. They gave up a pick swap, they gave up A.J. johnson again, who's not doing anything for the Wizards. But it would be maybe a prospect, someone would be interesting. It's just anyway interesting to think about. And Giannis hovers over all of these things we're talking about, over the Anthony Davis trade landscape and over the next guy we're going to talk about, which is John Morant. Let's take a quick break and then hit the John Moran trade landscape. The Zach Lowe show is brought to you by FanDuel. FanDuel is putting you in control right from tip off. That's right. You get to choose your reward, Play it safe, go for it. Feeling bold. That's your move. Whatever your style, you're in control no matter how you play. FanDuel is giving you the power to choose your reward and own your game this NBA season. Head to FanDuel.com lo to make your pick, get into the game and play it your way. 20 or over in President select states or 18 and over in President DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Opt in required rewards are not withdrawable. Restrictions apply including bonus and token expiration, leg requirements and max wager amount. See terms@sportsbook.fanduel.com gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org Chad this episode is brought to you by ServiceNow. AI is only as powerful as the platform it's built into. That's why it's no surprise that more than 85% of the Fortune 5 Now AI platform, while other platforms duct tape tools together, ServiceNow seamlessly unifies people, data, workflows and AI connecting every corner of your business. And with AI agents working together autonomously, anyone in any department can focus on the work that matters Most. Learn how ServiceNow puts AI to work for people@servicenow.com okay, John Morant wants out of Memphis. Everyone knows it. I think they want him out of Memphis. 40 million this year, 42 and a half next year. 45, 27, 28. There was a little dust up at practice yesterday in Berlin apparently between him and Vince Williams and another classic jaw truncated media session. I just, I mean the teams, everyone knows the teams that make theoretical sense and Miami has gotten all of the, all of the buzz publicly. Milwaukee is another team again. Desperation move, you know, buy low star talent, all that. Toronto's been mentioned. I don't necessarily see that. We can talk about them. Minnesota's been mentioned. I don't see that because of the money. I mean he might be my all time most disappointing player. And I don't mean like to sound like a school mom being like I'm so disappointed in you John Moran for your behavior off the floor. I just mean that like I was a true believer early in his career. He looked like, forget the face of the NBA stuff. He looked like a true leader of a rising up and coming team who kind of took after his personality. He looked like a player who wanted to bring, he looked like a star who wanted to bring his teammates along with him and not play separately from them. And then it just all went sideways in every possible way. The off court stuff, the Instagram stuff, we don't even need to get into that then. You know, he, he's unhappy last year with the offensive system that they run, ironically the one the Heat run now to some degree now he's unhappy with this coach and the substitution patterns which are strange by NBA standards and the fact that the coach dared hold him accountable in the locker room. And not only that, he's never been a good defensive player. He's never been a good three point shooter and his super skill was always getting to the basket and finishing at the basket. He doesn't do much of that anymore, at least not, not this year. And if he's not doing that, I'm just not sure like what. How he's helpful to a team and part of that is maybe is there some physical degradation because of how, how he plays and how much contact he takes around the rim. I'm just not sure like there's this idea that Memphis wants this rebuilding package. Young players and picks. We saw what Trey Young went for. CJ McCollum and Corey Kisper, an expiring and a role player. I'm not sure John Moran has any more trade value than that. I've heard some people say he does because of the change of scenery by Low. The electric talent is still there. I've seen Some people say he doesn't. I'm more of like, it's probably about the same because I look at that contract, it's not bad contract, it's not a supermax or anything like that. But, like, I don't know, like, I'll give you, for instance, Tim Legler. Miami and I mentioned Giannis hovering over all of this. Miami is the kind of team that has to sit there and think, as long as that guy in Milwaukee is potentially someday out there. Golden State has to think about this too, with trades they make. We mentioned Michael Porter Jr. And all that. Throwing away a pick in that trade. Not throwing away, but trading a pick. As long as that guy is potentially maybe out there. We cannot cannibalize our assets that we're going to need if that ever becomes available to us for any lesser trade. That's Miami's calculus. If they come to John Morant. Someone pitched me this trade. Andrew Wiggins and Davion Mitchell straight up for John Moran. And my first reaction to that was, Andrew Wiggins and Davion Mitchell have been good this year. Like Davion Mitchell's been legit good from Miami and a perfect fit for their offense. They play Ja, doesn't play. And if I trade two, rotate two starters for one in Ja Moran, and then I turn and then like a Wiggins could be salary filler for me down the line in a Giannis deal. B, even if I can still turn around and get Giannis because I haven't given up any picks in this fake jaw trade, I'm going to have to give up three or four players to get Giannis. I've traded like seven for two at that point. Like, who else is on my team? Like, I, as strange as it sounds, if I'm Miami and you and you come to me with that offer, I might be like, how about Rozier and Andrew Wiggins instead? Like a guy who's not playing for me at all. I mean, I think Miami will look at it. I think their interest level is currently being overstated. I think Toronto's interest level is currently being overstated, but I think they'll look at it.

Tim Legler (39:37)

I don't know.

Zach Lowe (39:37)

What do you think about John Miami on South beach playing the offensive system that he hated in Memphis?

Tim Legler (39:44)

So all the talk to me about, well, John Morant, what he needs is Miami, he needs the Miami culture, he.

Zach Lowe (39:51)

Needs the Miami fitness tests, the discipline.

Tim Legler (39:55)

Like he needs, right?

Zach Lowe (39:57)

This isn't a place where you get to be mad that the coach called you out. This is a Place where the coaches won a power struggle with freaking LeBron like 15 years ago. Right.

Tim Legler (40:05)

And you know what, you know what my, my comeback to that would be? I don't think any of that stuff would have an effect on John Moran at all. John Morant's going to be John Morant, how he wants to be. But here's, though, where I think there's an intriguing value to John Morant. And again, I don't want to get into all the off the court stuff, like, you know, based on his history, like, it's a little bit of buyer beware there with that stuff. So I don't want to talk about that. I want to talk about him as a player and on the court. And here's one thing, I do kind of think about John Moran because of what, you know, the time that he's missed because of all the stuff that's happened there, because of his current situation with the coach and just all, you know, just what a bad look it's been for John Morant. You know, some, some of the games he had a game recently, we had a 40 point game and like, hit big shots down the Philly.

Zach Lowe (40:54)

It was a crazy. It was a crazy Philly game.

Tim Legler (40:56)

Philly game. And, and, and, and the entire time he looked absolutely miserable while it was going on. And I mean, I've never seen anything like it. He's hitting big shots, they're calling timeout. He's walking toward the huddle, shaking his head, and at one point he just kind of gestured. He went like this with his arms, and basically he was mouthing the words, get out of the way. Like, basically, let's simplify the offense, just give me the ball and get out of the way. And this is what happens, what I'm doing right now, because he played great in that game. He looked like ja, right? He looked like that. Ja. That electrifying ja. Here's what I think, Zach, about him. I do think I'm just a little bit intrigued, and maybe I'm dead wrong.

Zach Lowe (41:35)

No, you're not.

Tim Legler (41:35)

Tom Morant could end up somewhere, had nothing to do with the culture or what's going on in the building or banners that are hung or who the president of the team is or whatever it has to do with him still, because he's young enough and still has the talent, having something massive that he wants to try to still prove. And I think in that regard, going to a team right now that's sort of a middling type team, I think John Morant, if there are a Couple guys there that he likes, that he wants to. He likes his teammates that. I think there could be some real juice left to John Morant in a short term like for this season, assuming he could stay healthy, which I think is always a big question mark with him. I think his body has taken, you know, a couple too many falls and as a result he's changed his game. So he's not quite as explosive a dynamic finishing at the rim. His mid range shots are up more. He doesn't play with the same reckless abandon that we loved about him, but it also led to him taking some really bad falls. I think he's adjusted his game and maybe that's a smart thing to do. Makes him a little bit less entertaining, like a little bit less, you know, that of that ridiculous threat that he has to like bring everybody out of their seats. But at the same time might be smarter for him long term. I think the talent is there, the game is there. And I do think there'd be some motivation to John Morant to go somewhere and even if it was just like to finish out this season really strong and then you're dealing with it again next year, the same stuff, I don't know how long it would last, but I do think there's something about that guy that he would want to kind of try to reclaim his spot in the pecking order in the league when you talk about star players because he's completely been dismissed in that conversation.

Zach Lowe (43:21)

And he was a legit all NBA player. It wasn't like a feel good small market. Everyone got injured at guard that year and we had to put someone on. He was a legit all NBA player who played like a guy who really wanted to win and wanted to. Who prioritized winning. He cut off the ball. My favorite thing about John Murray, he was a great cutter. When he was super engaged, he would do stuff that involved the total ecosystem of the team. So I don't disagree with you. In fact, this is why I think despite his trade value being at absolute rock bottom, that there will be at least one decent asset that goes back to Memphis in the event that they actually trade him. Like.

Tim Legler (44:01)

Oh yeah, for sure.

Zach Lowe (44:02)

Like this package of Rozier plus Davion Mitchell. Like the Heat would have to throw in something because here's the. Here's the other thing. The Grizzlies don't have to trade them. They don't. They. He's under contract for two more years. If they get like. If Sacramento calls was like, hey, we don't want to give any of our picks because our picks are golden chips and all our young players who we don't even play very much like we kind of forgot Devin Carter's even on our team, but we still like him. But we give you DeMar DeRozan's partially guaranteed expiring deal and Dario Sarich and matching salary that expires. Like the Grizzlies can say f you. We're not doing that. We'll just keep John Moran until his trade value is a little higher. It can't get any lower than that. And, and if the Heat can get him without compromising their ability to get into a Giannis or superstar X Derby down the line, I don't think that's a bad idea. The Bucks, they need something but again if it's Kuzma and Portis, which is almost an exact salary match, I don't really see like what. What the point of that is for the Grizzlies and Toronto. This is an interesting one. You'll like this. Emmanuel Quickley and Ochay Agbaji together is almost exactly John Moran's salary throw in at one pick. Toronto owns all their picks up with the lottery protected. Whatever. You got to at least look at that if you're the Raptors. Now here's the because of Quickley's contract being not great value. I'm not sure Memphis does that because that contract is so eh. Quickley's contract. The other thing is like Toronto's. What are they fourth in the East? They're. They're like playing. They're 25 and 17. That's a. That's like as. As interesting as the upside you're talking about is like it's a lot to throw at Scotty Barnes and Brandon Ingram and RJ Barrett halfway through a pretty good season. I don't know how this is going to end up but it could very well end up being like we're keeping them if the offers stink, if we ever.

Tim Legler (45:56)

Or.

Zach Lowe (45:57)

Or if this is sort of a secret. Stealthy. We're tearing it all down and we get the picks and the young players for Jaren Jackson Jr. And a trade no one sees coming. Maybe then we dump John Morant for whatever. But it's going to be very interesting to see how this ends up.

Tim Legler (46:12)

So let me ask you a question. Do you think John Morant, I mean is the respect factor going to be there from John Morant to, you know, most coaches in this league? I don't know. Like he's. He's having a problem with Isla, do you think Rajkovic would be the guy that could, like, he could connect who was in Memphis?

Zach Lowe (46:27)

He was in Memphis.

Tim Legler (46:28)

Here's what I'm, here's what I'm, here's what I'm thinking, though, if you're telling me because Toronto, you're right, hey, man, they're having a really good year and they're, they've, they're a really top shelf defense. They're like in the mix. Like, if it stopped right now, they'd be hosting a first round playoff series.

Zach Lowe (46:42)

Yeah, I'm not.

Tim Legler (46:43)

Yeah, but, but, but, but this is, is. It is. It is an exponential increase in like, talent that can do things against certain teams that maybe the guys they have currently can't. Here's why I would consider that if I were the Raptors, that would be, that would be very intriguing to me if it was.

Zach Lowe (47:04)

You got to throw in a pick. I'm not doing it from Memphis without. I need at least one first round pick and I might need something else. This is what, this is my negotiating position. Tim Legler, you're not getting it done for just, just players.

Tim Legler (47:14)

So you're talking about quickly.

Zach Lowe (47:18)

And a pick.

Tim Legler (47:19)

I strongly consider that if I were the Raptors. First of all, the pick isn't going to be a great pick. It's not going to be a super high pick. It's going to be an okay pick.

Zach Lowe (47:25)

And no, I want, I want an unprotected 2030 pick. I want to be introduced on the road.

Tim Legler (47:31)

It's got to be pushed down the road. You know, no idea what that pick will be. If you're the Raptors. I. Okay, I'm not as worried about the pick and I don't think quickly and Ibaji, that's a lot to give up for somebody that I said could be highly motivated, 26 years old, you know, a guy that, that can, can do things for your team without disrupting, by the way, what the other offensive players on your team really need. Like, John Morant's not going to disrupt Brandon Inger because Brandon Ingram isn't a early possession guy. He's the last eight seconds of the clock guy. Go get your offense. So the ball could be a. John Moran's hands. Let him go. Same thing for Scotty Barnes. Scotty Barnes, I already said it. You don't have to run anything for Scotty Barnes, and he's going to go out there and do all kinds of things to help you win. So John Morant, like the upgrade at talent as your primary ball handler. Assuming, man, he shows up in Toronto in the right frame of mind and like he looks at that as like, okay, man, there's some talent here. These guys are in the mix. I'm going to play some meaningful playoff games this year. I'm super into this. Like, let's go. Almost like a new lease on life. If he. And who knows if that's how he would show up. I don't know. But if he did, man, I'd consider it for that. That's not to me a ton to give up for the potential upside of this. Because look, here's the deal, Zach. What they currently have, as good as their year has been, what they currently have, like, it's not going to be enough to like really challenge in the Eastern Conference to try to get out of the East. It's not enough. You're not going to go beat the Pistons with that. I don't think you're going to beat the Knicks with. With that John Morant playing next to Brandon Ingram with Scotty Barnes and a defensive kind of culture that's been created there, that, that might be a hell of a lot more intriguing in terms of throwing the real scare into those teams. I might consider that if I were.

Zach Lowe (49:26)

The Raptors now, I think they'd have a meeting about it for sure. I think Memphis might not consider it good enough to move. Maybe they would. Maybe they would. And I don't know. And to your point, like I keep saying this, there's a like Jaw's contract is look, he has not played enough. Like it's the most fundamental thing about these guys. They don't play right. 39, 42, 45 is like substantially different than 58, 62 that Anthony Davis is making. It's just a much more palatable. And it's only two more years after this. The same length as Brandon Ingram. Like contractually it's not that bad if he plays. He just doesn't play enough. So we'll see. By the way, note on Miami, by the way, I don't know if you've noticed this. I looked it up because it's just, it's hit me when I've watched them. We mentioned this offensive system minimization of the pick and roll, all dribble, drive, ISO attack in space, all that super fast pace. For the season they're running 19 pick and rolls per 100 possessions. That's by far the lowest number in the league. It's like it's half of anyone else and probably even less before December. So 19 per 100. Before December 15th, that number was 14 and a half per 100. Since December 15th, it's up to 26. Still last, but like in sniffing distance of moderately normal since January 5th, which is only five or six games, it's up to 31. So we're approaching like, not quite normal, but within spitting distance of like. That looks almost like an NBA offense at times, like a regular NBA offense. That might be Tyler Hero, that coming back and playing more minutes and running more pick and roll. It might be the Heat kind of smartly thinking we've squeezed all we can out of being so extremely dogmatic about how we play. Let's try to sort of keep that as a. As a bulwark, but diversify a little bit. It's just. It's just interesting, something to monitor. All right, ready to move on to. Oh, by the way, on Giannis, Just last thing we mentioned, waiting till the summer, the extension, the Hawks, what they could know if they wait till the summer, the Heat keeping assets intact, et cetera, et cetera. The playoffs are also going to matter. Like some team. Like, what if the spurs flame out in the first round? What if the Thunder flame out in the second round? What if the Rockets flame out in the first round? What if the Rockets lose in the play in like, some team that's really good right now and out of the honest race because they're so in love with their young players and justifiably so. I support all those teams standing bad for now is going to come out of the playoffs maybe a little unhappy and maybe a little more itching to take a risk. Okay, let's talk about the game you called last night and the state of the Eastern Conference. Cleveland, Philly. It was an ant game. Philly got boat raced. Darius Garland hurt his other foot. We don't have news on that. Hopefully it's nothing because he was starting to look like Darius Garland again. Sam Merrill hurt his hand again. He's been big for them. And just more broadly, Tim Legler. The east is such a mess after the Knicks lost to the Kings last night and Jalen Brunson left that game with the sprained ankle severity, tbd. There are three games separating the Knicks at second and the Cavs in seventh in the Eastern Conference. And you mentioned how you don't think Toronto can win the East. I don't either, but I'm interested to see sort of where that line is for you, like who can and who can't actually win these. But let's talk about the Cavs, who Won that game last night. Let's just pretend we get news today. Garland's out two weeks. It's minor. It's no big deal. It'll. He'll be fine. They're 6 and 3 in their last nine games with some quality wins over the spurs, the Suns, the Wolves, the Zombie Nuggets. Their offense and defense has both been better in that span. The ball, I thought was really flying last night. Really flying. Clearly flying around. Donovan is Donovan. Tyson's been a godsend for them. Mobley hit or miss, but, you know, very good player. Are the Cavs back on your list of teams or did they never leave? Like, yeah, this team could make the finals.

Tim Legler (53:32)

Yeah, they, they, they've been in the mix the entire time for me, just because of. Look, I love what the Pistons have done and are doing and they just kind of picked up where they left off last year. I was so impressed with. And I called one of their playoff games last year against the Knicks and just like they gave the Knicks everything they could handle and they're so young, the toughness is there. I was excited to see what they could become. You know, going into the season, I thought it was going to be Knicks, Cavs at the top, Pistons right there. Like, that's kind of how I thought the Eastern Conference standings would go. Pistons have upset all of that because they've been clearly the best team, most consistent team in the Eastern Conference, but they're still very young. They haven't won a playoff series together. Like, there's another level to this. There's a progression to this. So that remains to be seen down the line. The Knicks, they've been a little bit underwhelming, kind of an up and down season. They've had some key injuries. They really just missed the stretch with Josh Hart, like that was. He's so important to what they do. He missed time. As a result, they struggled. Carl Anthony Towns has. Has been inconsistent lately offensively. So they had a little bit of a downturn. So they don't look like, okay, they're, they're invincible. Like none of these other teams like Boston and the Cavs, like can. Can possibly play with them. So that's why the Cavs never like disappeared to me. Disappointing for sure. Based on what they did last year. 64 wins, an absolute buzzsaw offensively, number one rated team in the league at one point. Historically good offensively. And there were nights that you flat out could not guard that team a year ago. The big question was always going to be, and they were Pretty good defensively, too. It was just toughness, mental and physical toughness. When it really was time to lay it on the line. Did they have that? Could they break through that? I still wonder about that. I don't think that's really changed. But you can't deny that this is still a team, that if on any given night, no matter what you have defensively, no matter what your personnel is, your scheme is, your adjustments, it's futile against this team offensively. And last night was one of those nights for Philly. At no point did Philadelphia remotely come close to catching up to the ball. This was last night. Zach sitting there was like watching when a great team offensively, like, plays well. That's what it looks like last night. And it started right out of the gate. They had an incredible win against Minnesota two games ago, 146 points against the Timberwolves, who have been hot. Then they had this horrific game against Utah. We talked to Kenny Atkinson a lot about it before the game. We talked to Darius Garland about it before the game, and they all admitted it. It was embarrassing, like they just wasn't there. And Kenny Atkinson said they've had three games like that this year against teams that were like lottery type teams that weren't even playing everybody, and they didn't show up in the right state of mind. So this was another one of those. I like the bounce back from that. They were accountable. In the film session, guys bought in. Donovan Mitchell bought in himself, and this was their response. And I thought this was an important game. And by the way, you want to hear a sad state of affairs that we're halfway through the season, basically right at the midway point. I've been calling games all year. Last night was the first game I've called all year where everybody was available, like at the top of the roster. First time, first game. Because I was excited about that. You're talking to the coaches before the game, you're like, who's playing? Are these guys playing? Like, who's. Who's in, who's out? Everybody played, and I'm like, this is awesome. And then I got that as a game to call because Cleveland was that good right out of the gate. The ball movement was exceptional. Ton of dribble, drive kicks. And then the Sixers trying to chase it, never catching up to it. And then, look, some of his Sixers were flat, man. Maxey and Edgecomb provide the juice to the building. Neither one of those guys did that. There was no barrage out of Maxi at any point in the game. You didn't really even notice Edgecomb. These guys are combining for 47 points a night. They had half of that, you know, and be kind of decent game. A lot of it was free throws that that doesn't get the crowd going. Paul George played pretty well. Mid range jumpers doesn't get the crowd going. Maxi's bursts stringing together 10 quick points, couple deep threes and these crazy drives he has. You know Edgecomb because of his just like toughness, how cold hearted he is as a rookie. None of that happened. So you get a really good team playing great offensively, a solid team playing well lately flat. That's what you get. The good news is they run it back tomorrow night. I'm calling the game again and I expect a great response out of Philadelphia. So I'm assuming we're going to get a much better game. But Cleveland for me has never disappeared. Zach from the radar of they're still a legitimate threat in the Eastern Conference, although I do still have questions about mental toughness. When they have to have it in that big spot, I think that's a legitimate thing. But their offense is so good. It's not like there's this massive separation from these other teams at the top of the East.

Zach Lowe (58:27)

And the Cleveland Cavaliers, yeah, they didn't have weight and they still don't have Streuss. And that's the sort of interesting spot on their roster to me is that fifth starter, big wing roving shooter kind of guy. We don't know when Stru is going to be available, if at all. They've concluded that Hunter in the starting five doesn't work, that that grouping doesn't play together very much. It did get on the court for a second last night. Merrill filling in has been successful despite the fact that they're they're smaller three guard lineups like Mitchell Garland. Merrill. Mitchell garland. Craig Porter Jr. Who I like, he's herky jerky and all that. I just think they're a little, a little too small. But the Merrell one works and his he's like a really good screener for Evan Mobley in the pick and roll. I'm going to read you a fun step. Evan Mobley out of almost 200 guys who have run, run, handled on 100 pick and rolls or more this season. Evan Mobley is the most efficient of them all as a pick and roll ball handler like that part of his skill set. Maybe he doesn't do it a lot. He's a big guy but it's out there. Yeah, I had Them, I had them fourth on my Eastern Conference power rankings last week. But as a team that could win the East. So I'm just going to name some teams and you tell me if they can make the Finals. Cleveland, we've concluded, yes, Detroit can make the finals clearly. Yes, New York can make the Finals clearly. Boston, I don't think so.

Tim Legler (59:47)

Unless, look, there's a massive X factor out there with the Tatum situation. Like, you know, we're going to have to wait and see. Tatum comes back. You know, there's, there's degrees to this. He's going to be a high usage guy. He's going to have the ball a lot. Is he going to feel like himself? Is he going to be like normal? Is he going to be inefficient? That could change things for them. Or maybe it's, hey, it's better than anybody could expect him to be and he gets enough games under his belt going into the playoffs. That would change to me, the way I would have to recalibrate the way I view them as currently constructed. If you don't get a really good version of Jason Tatum, I don't think they can make it all the way to the Finals.

Zach Lowe (60:23)

Orlando, no. Okay.

Tim Legler (60:27)

And I'm disappointed to say that because going into the year I had Cavs Nicks at the top. I thought they would be the 12 seeds. I don't know how you couldn't think that the Cavaliers would be the ones. Even if you don't think they could have got it done in the playoffs because they seem to crash in the playoffs. Even if you thought that they won 64 games last year and they're running it back with the same team. So just by looking at the other team I thought, okay, Cavs one seed, Knicks, two seed, Pistons, three seed, Orlando, four seed. Like that's what I had going in. And look, Orlando's sitting there at six and they're only two and a half games out of third. So I guess they could still end up there. Wagner and Bankero barely played together, so maybe they could. But no, there's something like missing about that team offensively, even with Bain playing better than he did when he first got there, it's just not good enough. And Bain hasn't really by himself is not going to solve their three point shooting problems. That's an issue, man. Their defense has been, you know, not as good as last year, but at times they show you, okay, it's pretty good. Other nights that's not as good. So no, for me, the inconsistency the lack of continuity and the lack of three point shooting. I don't think that Orlando could make a run all the way through.

Zach Lowe (61:39)

They're still at the very bottom of my yes list just because I think the upside is there. But I. Philadelphia, Yes.

Tim Legler (61:47)

I think Philly could there. And despite what I watched last night. Look, man, look. Just look at. And with Edgecomb being like years beyond what he should be from a maturity standpoint, he's a big game player, he's a shot maker late, he contributes all over the floor a lot of different ways that I think even Nick Nurse is probably surprised by his poise and iq. But he rebounds, he competes hard defensively, he can make plays for other people. He's a big shot maker and taker. To go with Maxey. To go with Embiid, who's looked a lot better last night. Didn't look great although he had decent numbers. But the guy's average at 28 in his last 11 in very limited minutes, he's still a dominant force. The explosiveness isn't there. I don't know if it's coming back. He had a play last night I talked about on the air. He got a rebound and went for a putback and he made a jumping motion and then his toes stayed on the ground. It was a really weird thing. He went up. He went up like he was going to go up and he was not going to dunk it, but he was going to probably shoot a little sort of jump hook, half hook off the glass over Mobley and he went to jump and his toes stayed on the ground.

Zach Lowe (63:01)

The same thing happened in Toronto last week where he got the ball under the rim, I think on offensive rebound and kind of did these like weak little up fakes as if he were a six six guy trying to finish in traffic. He's like, dude, you're Joel Embiid. And then he got stuffed at the rim. And there was another play in that game last night where DeAndre Hunter had the ball coming up the right wing in transition. It was just him and Joel. And Joel was like there under the rim, like step for step. And you thought, I've seen this guy go up and block this shot and. And he just stayed on the ground and did nothing. But then there are moments where you see glimpses of it where he jumps a little higher and but. And you sort of have hope that something is coming. I'm a no on them making the finals cause I just don't trust his health for three rounds.

Tim Legler (63:43)

It's Interesting to me that you would have, you would still be holding on to that little bit of a yes for Orlando, but not to Philly, man. I think the talent level of Philly, the fit and sort of the, the, the multiple ways they can beat you offensively, they can beat you with three point shooting. Some nights they can beat you with like transition play, especially with their smaller lineup or. And they can still get 20 to 30 out of Embiid and drawing fouls and putting his team in the bonus and all that. I just think there's more upside there. Like if it clicks and they're healthy at the right time, that's a dangerous team to me and that's why I'm including them still as a team that could potentially do it.

Zach Lowe (64:26)

I just don't trust Joel to be on the floor for three straight playoff series. That's all it is. Now, I will say you're right about the intrigue. They're plus 32 in only 248 minutes with maxi Georgian and beat all on the floor together. That looks like it fits about as well as it looked like it should have fit last year when I, when I was like, this is just a tailor made big. Three different positions, different sizes, different skill sets. Paul George is brought all the way in to being a complimentary role player. There was a play last night that I just absolutely loved when they ran Paul George off Embiid, set a pin down for him on the right sideline. The play was for Paul George to come out and shoot a jump shot. Jared Allen was on Embiid. Jared Allen lunged out to try to guard Paul George or disrupt the pass to Paul George. The pass never came. Edgecombe had the ball. I think Paul George saw Jared Allen jump out in front of him and just said, you know what? This isn't a pin down for me anymore. I'm going to set a back screen on Jared Allen because my guy's chasing me. He's on my back. Sam Merrill. Jared Allen's in front of me now. I'm going to get in between them and screen Jared Allen from behind. And he motioned with his head like, yo, behind me. Joel's open. Now pass the ball to Joel. And Joel got this wide open little 12 foot baseline jumper. And this lineup of Maxi, Edgecomb, Grimes, Georgian, Embiid, it's a little small. It's a little sort of uncertain on how it should play. It's a very fast lineup other than Joel, which is the true of most Sixers lineups with Maxi and Edge Coleman Joel, it's only played 42 minutes together. I'm intrigued by that. Trade wise, they actually have some assets to play with. They can trade two first round picks. Darrell's always looking and just trade wise going up and down the East. I think the Knicks are going to try to do something where they turn Yabu Sele plus Daddier plus some seconds into a player that makes a little bit less money than those guys do combined, but can play for them. Someone threw out Day Ron Sharp. I think Day Ron Sharp's been better than that trade package. Zaire Williams was thrown out to me, like, I could see that. A couple people have wondered, are they going to trade Mitchell Robinson because he's a free agent this summer? I just said, like, if I'm trying to win the championship right now, I can't trade that guy despite all the health uncertainty and everything, unless I get something really good in return. Because his offensive rebounding is like a whole thing.

Tim Legler (66:47)

It's a. The skill that he provides. That one very unique thing that he provides is such a game changer. And you're talking about the margins here being can this guy help us in a second half of an important playoff game, like win a game because he got a six extra possessions on the offensive glass on. In a team like that, you know what damage that can mean if the ball. That's extra possessions for Brunson or Karl Anthony, Towns or Bridges, whatever. And then obviously the force that he is defensively and his ability to jump out and guard smaller guys and he's just so much quicker defensively than Cat on those switch outs. But mainly it's the offensive rebound. Like it's such a critical component to winning playoff games that I agree with you. It's almost like, well, we just gotta. We just gotta live with it, man. He. Maybe he's there, maybe he's not, but no one else can come close to replicating that.

Zach Lowe (67:42)

I think Boston is gonna hunt for another big man that can play. And the questions they have to ask themselves is, is Simons going out in that deal or is his last two or three weeks where he's looked more comfortable a game changer for us? And how much money can we add or do we have to subtract? Those are the sort of trade landscape questions in the east that I think are interesting in this conversation. But yeah, Philly, they're interesting, man. They're. They're. They're what? They're a great story. Much better than I thought they would be.

Nikais Duncan (68:10)

All right.

Zach Lowe (68:11)

The last thing I wanted to do with you is. Well, there's some other trade stuff. Well, we'll get to that. I wanted you to pick your biggest surprise and biggest disappointment of the NBA season. Let's start happy. Let's do Tim Legler's biggest surprise of the NBA season. I said it could be a team or a player.

Tim Legler (68:26)

I went with teams. I'm sorry. I had a hard time differentiating. So I'll do shorter on two teams. Is that okay? Can I do two? Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. It's Boston and Phoenix.

Zach Lowe (68:37)

All right, so just do Boston because I'm about to do Phoenix with Nikais Duncan. So give me Boston, which is on my list, too.

Tim Legler (68:43)

There's just no way that you could have told me going into the season knowing you're not going to have Tatum, if not the whole year, certainly till the very end of the season, that you were going to be able to pull off what they've pulled off and being situated in third and Eastern Conference despite losing him. So what has happened to make that happen? I think one of the things is I've always been a big Jaylen Brown fan. I like how hard the guy competes. He likes to defend, he takes on challenges. Been a really good player in this league for a long time. For him to dial it up to almost a 30 point a game scorer, like, to be able to do that, like, you know, it's almost harder, Zach, to go from like 8 to 17. Like some guys make that leap and you're like, wow, man, that guy like doubled his scoring average. And you're like, yeah, but, you know, obviously there was an increased opportunity for that player. And like, they're usually. That's a young player that does that. And like, you're like, okay, he's still expanding his game. Then it is to go from like 23 to 30. It's like to take it to that level and to do it that consistently has really surprised me. Because look at the rest of the roster, I mean, you're talking about, you know, Derek White's a really, really good player. But that's like now you're. That's like clear. That's your second best offensive player, like every night is Derrick White. And he hasn't really shot the ball particularly well this year. And yet there they are, third Eastern Conference. Then you got Peyton Pritchard, who was a sixth man, right? And now he's this guy starting, and you're like, okay, that's our third best offensive player. It's Peyton Pritchard. And for the Simons, you bring in. And then after that, you're talking about absolute hit or miss role players that aren't even firmly in the rotation for, like, their careers haven't been firmly in the rotation for teams. And now this is like your next, like four through nine. Add all that up, there's no way you could predict the Boston Celtics. Look, I, I didn't think they'd go away. I didn't think the Pacers were going to completely go away either. All right, Those two teams are looking at those injuries to Halliburton and Tatum. I thought, you know what, man, the Pacers, he went to the Finals, like, and there's a, there's a, there's a culture of the way they play. Still hard to guard. They've obviously, you know, just gone off the rails. Boston was the other team. I'm thinking, like, at best, this is a 500 team waiting for Tatum. At best. So that, to me, at best, the most pleasant surprise of the season. Looking at their roster, look at what Jaylen Brown has done to his game to turn it into this. The contributions they've gotten from other guys who are typically role players outside of Derrick White. It's been incredible to me. I think finally, I think a lot of people are going to. Even though the guys won a championship, I think people are finally, like, appreciating Joe Missoula. Like, this is what it took for people to kind of appreciate what Joe Missoula has done and can be as a coach. And that's a shame because I've always been a big admirer of his. I think a lot of people question certain things. I think he's really erased a lot of that with the job he's done with this team.

Zach Lowe (71:40)

For sure. They were on my, my, my list of surprises were Boston, Phoenix, Philly, Toronto. Mild surprise for Toronto. I had the under on Boston at 41 and a half. I just thought they'd be like a 38 and 44 win.

Tim Legler (71:53)

Yeah, kind of sounds about right.

Zach Lowe (71:55)

Completely agree on Missoula making this a top three offense, being ahead of the curve on the possession game, valuing possessions, and I think, like, that's gotten a lot of attention. Defensively, they've only been okay given their personnel. 10th, 10th, 12th, 13th is pretty good. And no team. I just love the way he's like, if they're playing a team that has anybody who's a so so to non shooter, they're the most aggressive. We're just not guarding you. How about that? How about deal with that? Isaac Okoro we're not guarding you at all. And they're just ahead of the curve with that. For my surprise, I went a little shorter term. The Denver Nuggets being 6 and 3 without Jokic and without Valent Shunas for almost all that. But one game, without Murray for three of those nine games, without Christian Brown for six of those nine games, without Aaron Gordon for a handful of those nine games is like astonishing to me. Peyton Watson is averaging 24 points a game in that stretch. He's shooting 60% on long twos for the season and he's getting buckets on isos on pick and rolls, hunting smaller guys in transition, shooting well from three. He looks like a guy who's going to get paid this summer who they may not be able to afford to keep. But more than that, Murray you talked about last night in the broadcast has to be in the All Star Game, no questions asked. He's been unbelievable to me. I talked about Minnesota as a title contender hiding in plain sight. Like that's just not discussed. As a team that could win four playoff series, I think they can. I think they will make a trade on the fringes to upgrade their backcourt rotation. You asked me to guess what's going to happen to them. I think they'll do something at like Dillingham plus a little salary plus whatever they can trade to get a decent guard in there that can round out their rotation. But I think they could get to the finals. But my other take is like I don't think Denver is a title contender hiding in plain sight. I think Denver is a juggernaut hiding in plain sight. I think they are as good as the Oklahoma City Thunder. Given the way the Thunder have played in the last month. I think Denver fully healthy Jokic back Aaron Gordon playing well is toe to toe with the Thunder as the best team in the NBA.

Tim Legler (74:04)

I totally agree with everything you said about Denver. What's to me one of the most interesting dynamics of this NBA season that's happened over here over the last month is the conversation has gone from the inevitability of the Thunder repeating, which that's what it looked like at the start of the year. You're like who's beaten this team four times in a seven game series despite the fact that they had two seven game series last year to win a championship and a Game 7 in which Halliburton goes down early when he's cooking. So who knows what that would have turned out to be but still come back again. Defense is the same bunch of young Guys have a different off season than they've ever had their champions. They're young, they all got paid. And you're like, okay, there's probably going to be maybe some, some hiccups here at the start of the year because it's a different feeling for all of these guys. And all they do is come out. They don't lose. It was one game in two months. And you're like, okay, it's really not a question of can anybody win the west. The question and else win the West. The question is what's the group of teams? And make an argument for those teams who can be the last team standing against the three Thunder in the Western Conference. And now because of the vulnerability of Oklahoma City, now that conversation has changed. I think now you're going, okay, can somebody else represent the west in the NBA Finals? And I think Denver would be the most likely team, most logical team. You'd go there. And I agree. Six and three without Jokic. That was a tough stretch coming up. And they're six and three. Incredible. They're going to weather the storm. More than weather the storm. They're like thriving.

Zach Lowe (75:41)

I, I put the over under if you miss. I said if he missed 15 games, I'm going to put the over under on. Denver wins at six and a half. That's what I said to your guy. Adam Morris, like 6 and 9, 7 and 8. Holy smokes, am I going to be wrong on that. And like the stuff they've discovered on Watson. Pickett is shooting 40 something percent on threes. He looks like a guy who can play for them in the playoffs. Najee looks like a guy I can at least throw out there and he can do some stuff for me. Spencer Jones has been solid all year. Like they can take this, add it to the team they already had. And I, like I said before the season, the championship is Denver versus Oklahoma City. Obviously the spurs butted into that conversation. I think the Rockets butted into it and they've slumped a little bit lately. They'll get back into it. Minnesota's right there. Someone's got to win the East. I still think these are the two best teams. I think Denver, what they've proven without Jokic. Schedule has been great. They face a lot of mediocre to bad teams. They've missed so many other guys. It's not just Jokic. It's all these other guys who have been in and out of the lineup. It's just massively impressive. Give me, before you go, disappointment of.

Tim Legler (76:46)

The year, two quick ones. Indiana and Cleveland. You know, I didn't expect Indiana and 13 game losing streak. I mean, I know they've had guys hurt, but I mean everybody's got guys hurt in this league. It's just, it's the theme of the league. Siakam has actually played and played very well this year. That should add up to nine wins. So I didn't expect them to completely fall off the map this year without Halliburton. I didn't see that coming. And then Cleveland, even though I said I'm still going to consider them in the mix in the east, but I expected them to be sitting here at the midway point of the season with like a four or five game cushion in the Eastern Conference as the 1 seed, like that's what I thought they would be. And if you say, hey, they're only a regular season team, fine, we are in the regular season. And that's why I thought based on what they did a year ago, even without Struse, I expected them to be right there at the top of the pack.

Nikais Duncan (77:31)

Now.

Tim Legler (77:31)

Detroit's been fantastic, but okay, so let's say worst case, like a two seed at this point. Didn't think there'd be that many teams in front of the Cleveland Cavaliers. They've been disappointing for me coming off a 64 win season with most of those guys back and playing most nights. The starting lineup hasn't been together a whole lot. But still for me, sitting here a few games over.500, halfway point of the season, I think I have to label that as a disappointment. So those would be the two for me.

Zach Lowe (77:58)

Tribute to the Pistons, by the way, that I didn't even think about them as a surprise team. I mean for them to be 28 and 10 with the best point differential in the east now is at least a mild surprise. They're still my most interesting trade deadline team. I don't want to belabor it. I've debated it almost every episode. I think they should do at least a little something to upgrade their shooting, but maybe they won't do it. My biggest disappointment of the year despite their recent play remains the Clippers. And, and you know, look, they're 16 and 2017 and 23. They're about to crack the play in mix. For them to be this expensive and start off that poorly, starting right out of the gate by getting drubbed in Utah and looking like they didn't even realize the season had started, they're still disappointment of the year. But they're coming in, they're playing well. Tim Legler. Best in the business. Don't know how you tolerate rj, but you do it. Tell Mike Breen I said let's go Mets and I'll see you around the block. Will do, man.

Tim Legler (78:53)

Always great being on. I'm sure I'll talk to you.

Zach Lowe (78:55)

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Nikais Duncan (80:50)

Figure something out? I think on a basic level it helps when they knock down shots from the perimeter to kind of loosen things up for them offensively. With Wemby roaming around the paint all over the place, I think for me it was more so little things with OKC that I was kind of keeping track of. Like one of the early things that popped for me with Shai in particular, if you watch him, you know, he has his own cadence. Like, he likes to get into the hesitations and all the pump fakes to get guys off guard. It felt like three or four minutes into that game, he decided actually just no fakes. Whenever I see a shot pocket, I'm just going straight up for it. And so, like, watching his internal clock kind of speed up was fun for me. And then naturally, once you get into the second and third and the shot making really started popping from him, it was just game over from that point. So, like, that part was interesting to me. And then the other thing and my guy Steve hit on this. On our most recent episode, the Dunker Spot, talking about how the spurs want to keep Winby low on the floor. It did feel like as the game went on, the Thunder were more intentional about, okay, if Wemby's going to be in the corner, we're going to be a little bit more intentional about who we have in the corner. Let's try to complicate some of those rotations that Wemby wants to make. So those are probably the two major things, like missing Vasale on one side, missing Isaiah Hardenstown the other side. Like, I didn't want to take too much from the matchup outside of this is awesome, but those were a couple of micro things that stood out to me where it felt like OKC may be figuring some things out against San Antonio if that matchup comes up again.

Zach Lowe (82:07)

And of course, AJ Mitchell, Mitch missed two of the three Thunder losses in this series and was back and played very well on both ends of the floor in that game. By the way, just AJ Mitchell related aside, I looked this up this morning. Mitchell Caruso, sga, Jalen Williams, J Dub, Chad Holmgren. In my head, they rolled that game out, that lineup out. I think for a half a for like a minute in that game. In my head I was like, is that the best Thunder lineup? Like, I know it doesn't have Kayson, Wallace, it doesn't have Hardenstein, doesn't have Dort. What an embarrassment of riches. That lineup's only played five possessions the entire season so far. Just flagging that. I think you absolutely nailed it in your second point. There's a lot of attention in these games on who is Wemby guarding and who's Chet guarding? Are they guarding each other? Do they have a wing guarding Wembanyama? Why are they doing that? Wembanyama is really guarding nobody in these. In these games. He's sort of just staying along the baseline, near the basket, toggling between whoever is closest to him. And right away, at the start of that game, Shea was in the corner a couple times. They put Wallace in the corner a bunch of times. Just like we're going to put our best shooters and some of our best players down here instead of Caruso, instead of Dort. And by the way, this might be a mean ish thing to say. Did it help that. Did it help that Dort was out in this matchup? Like, this is not a great matchup for Dort. I'm not sure. Like, there's not a great guy for him to guard, and he's an easy guy for Wembanyama to guard. But I completely agree that they sort of came out with a game plan of, we know where Wemby's going to be, and we're going to put guys strategically there that can hurt them if they're being unguarded in the corner.

Nikais Duncan (83:53)

Yeah. Like, I think to the Dort point, I think on the high end, the answer is no to that, because I do think his ability to guard. And if you do want to put wings on Wemby, you want people to disrupt his base. Like, he can factor into some of that as well. And I will say, like, the shotmaking hasn't been what it was the last couple of years, but he can always heat up, and some of the drives have been kind of interesting from him this year. So, like, I think there's still a place for him. But you do feel to the lineup that you mentioned a little bit earlier, when it's like, A.J. mitchell in this place, like, that is just another creator, another guy that can drive all the way. Because I think something that stood out to me, stood out to Steve. I think you've also pointed out when talking about these Thunder spurs matchups, the possessions where you have a closeout attack and Kayson Wallace is not even looking at the rim. He's just trying to keep it moving instead of maintaining that advantage. Like, A.J. mitchell is a guy like, I am not afraid of anyone. Not that Kayson Wallace is afraid, to be clear. But A.J. mitchell is a lot more aggressive as a scorer, naturally. And so you kind of feel those moments as well, where I can get all the way downhill for a basket for myself or get to the free Throw line or at the very least, I'm driving deeper into the paint. That's another thing that popped in the first quarter as well. Like some of the late cutting from OKC that you saw. Wemby staying low, we're going to drive deeper into the paint. Wemby is going to try to block the shot, and behind him comes this slot cut, and Wemby can't recover out that quickly. So, like, they're figuring out ways to get to the rim a little bit more and threaten things. That's probably the bigger picture.

Zach Lowe (85:10)

Thought I wondered also if the Thunder were overthinking defensive matchups a little bit when it was Chet won big versus Wemby one big and just would Chet guard Wemby more. That didn't really happen on cross matches. That happened here and there, and Wemby really enjoyed that in the first quarter of the game. Had a couple of dunks, one that he made, one that he missed on, on Chet's head.

Nikais Duncan (85:32)

But Chet.

Zach Lowe (85:33)

Chet acquitted himself. Defensively, I thought fine. Offensively, a little quiet. I did think the spurs, like when they say CJ Dub on Wembanyama or Kenrich Williams on Wembanyama or Caruso on Wembanyama, you know, the. The whole point of that is we think a smaller guy can get up under his shit a little bit and disrupt him. But also, like, we're going to. We're going to complicate your pick and roll attack because we might be able to switch a Fox wimpy pick and roll and take you out of that game. And I think the spurs, despite the fact that they got blown out in Oklahoma City, I think the spurs were a little smarter about, like, we actually don't care that you're doing that. And we can still run pick and roll with Wembanyama. If you're going to switch, we can have him slip to the rim and do damage that way. Or we can bring Harrison Barnes into the pick and roll. If you've got Chet on him or Luke Cornett, I'm sorry, you got a backup center on him, whoever it is, Big Jalen Williams. And if you switch, Fox can torch you there. If not, like you drop, Fox can torch you there. We can run Wemby off of pin down screens. Like, we'll have Casen Wallace's guys set a pin down for Wemby. Switch that, switch that, and see how that works out for you. So I thought they were a little smarter about that. Despite the blowout. I just think this is so awesome. For the league. It's clearly a rivalry. I understand the old school like Reggie as with Reggie Miller on the game like you got to play in the playoffs before it counts as a rivalry for sure that intensifies it. But this is the initial stage of what is going to be the defining rivalry of the NBA hopefully for the next five or 10 years. There's clearly a Chet Wemby thing and it's freaking awesome. Like we need more of this in the league and Shea letting out that cathartic yell toward the crowd in the third quarter was awesome. I just want, I want more and more and more. Okay, you're the perfect person to talk about Phoenix about because 24 and 16, 14th on offense, sixth on defense. They've gotten a very good Devin Booker season but not like a lights out shooting lights out anyway Devin Booker season. I think the defense in the passing have been pretty close to peak Booker ability. But I do think there's a, I think this is an interesting time. Like they've gotten a lot of kudos for like hardest playing team in the league on a string defensively, Dylan Brooks cultural transformation, they're all up in you on defense, blah blah blah. All that is very true. Their sheer effort level is 5% to 10% above the team they're playing almost every single night. It's one of the reasons why they're an elite offensive rebounding team because it's not just Mark Williams who's a one man offensive rebounding team by himself. It's Jordan Goodwin rebounding like he's 8ft tall. It's crashing the glass, it's setting hard screens, it's all that. But effort can only get you so far in the NBA and I think you and I would both agree that when you go down player for player talent wise, after you get by Booker, it doesn't feel like a 24 and 16 kind of roster but it has been a 24 and 16 kind of roster. In fact, if you look at the on off data, almost all their core rotation guys have really solid plus minus numbers. Whether it's also a Goodaro off the bench. Colin Colin Gillespie's minutes without Booker have been pretty good. Like it's a well balanced team. Let's start with their offense because their defense has been elite and we'll get there 14th in offense. Given everything I just said about their talent level, it's not great but that's I think a win for the Suns to be an average to a slightly above average offensive team. They don't get to the line, they turn the ball over a lot. Their shot selection, they don't get to the rim very much. They're 28th in shots at the rim, but they are taking a lot of threes and they have been a good shooting team from all over the place this year. What the hell is happening? How is this team a good offense?

Nikais Duncan (89:14)

I think you start with what Jordan Knott has worked to establish, and I think there is an overall empowerment and the level of accountability and a level of trust that he has brought with this group. And so, as you mentioned at the top, Devin Booker's been very good this year. One of my early thoughts about the Suns heading into like training camp, preseason, et cetera, is are we going to get the quote, unquote, heliocentric Devin Booker year, where it's just going to be him running a whole bunch of pick and roll and we get to see 30 and eight and they win 28 games, but we get to see Pete Booker. And what was established very early on, you look at even some of the preseason tape, was, yeah, Devin Booker is going to initiate, but we are going to explore the entire Devin Booker toolkit. It is still going to be Devin Booker off of pin downs, Devin Booker off of those wide actions early in offense, Devin Booker lifting up from the baseline and curling around the free throw line area, making decisions there, in addition to mixing in that traditional pick and roll stuff. And within that, if you're going to have this much Devin Booker off ball, that is where Royce o' Neal initiating more offense matters. That is where Colin Gillespie started, what, the last 19 games. Next, he's taking on more ownership of playmaking. Dillon Brooks will bring the ball up the floor and get them into their offense. And so they have a level of trust. Mark Williams, when they go into delay and some of the high handoff stuff just to kind of get things going, they allow everyone to kind of touch it and like it's very cliche, like, you know, ball movement, all that good stuff. Like you want to have a team that feels the ball and things like that, but it really works. And it helps having a versatile star like Devin Booker to where you can build the boat around not just pick and role play, not just shooting, but a little bit of everything. And once you get that with Royce o' Neal doing shooting the leather off the ball. But again, the playmaking pops for him, especially when he screens for Devin Booker. Grayson Allen, another guy that was in the start lineup, now coming off the bench, but you can fly him off screens. He can initiate he's driving more than he ever has. I think it was 10 drives per 100 possessions last year is up to 17 this year. Like, when you have all those guys that, like, actually, I can do this, Dylan Brooks and all of the scoring that he's doing, I know we're going to get there. It makes it easier for you to get offense from everywhere and it makes it more difficult for teams to kind of key in on Devin Booker and shut them down.

Zach Lowe (91:18)

Yeah, there's just value in side to side with purpose, right? Like moving the ball to the second side, to the third side at a high rate of speed with like decisive screening, hard cutting. It's why, like, look, The Bulls are 20th in offense. They don't have a, a ton of offensive talent. At the very least, they make you move around on defense and the Suns do that too. And Grayson Allen coming back is a big deal. Like, The Suns are -2 per 100 possessions with Booker on the bench, plus five with him on the floor. Those bench minutes, I think, get a lot more palatable if Grayson Allen and Gillespie are both part of them. And we'll see what happens when Jalen Green. If Jalen Green won and if he comes. But I think, like, everyone is just playing really well. Like, they're running sets for Colin Gillespie. They're running like Booker, pick and roll. And Mark Williams, instead of rolling to the rim, rolls into a pin down on the left side of the floor for Colin Gillespie to shoot a three or take the ball into the middle of the floor and keep the machine moving. Royce O' Neill is shooting like a million threes per 36 minutes and shooting 40%. Mark Williams, who I've always been a fan of, the health concerns were what they were. He hasn't been great, but he's been like, you can see some stuff happening on offense. He made a soft little jump hook the other night on a switch and looked very comfortable doing it. And then there was a fast break where I can't remember who it was. Someone passed him the ball in the middle of the floor in a little bit of traffic. On the fast break the other night, I can't remember who they were playing at like the three point line, maybe a little bit above it. And I was like, oh, this is not going to end well for like, this is a lot of work for Mark Williams, seven footer and just like soft one dribble layup. And I was like, all right, Mark Williams, like, they just have a bunch of guys a lot of people have talked about. IGUIDARO and the fact that they get a different defensive identity when he's on the floor. They can go from a drop team to a switch everything team and it's hurt their rebounding a little bit. Although their rebounding has been actually good when Iguidar was on the floor, but just his passing from the elbows, they're just like squeezing everything out of this group of guys. And Jordan not can't get enough praise. Coach of the year is between him and Missoula for me right now. I don't know what else is interesting to you on offense, Howard. They're generating a lot of threes. That's good. Offensive rebounding is good. Like they're just a solid team.

Nikais Duncan (93:46)

I think the threes in the offensive rebound is what I want to hang on for a little bit. I think to the Suns and with Jordan Ott in particular, like the biggest compliment I can pay to them watching them this year is that they've kind of made me rethink some core principles that I have about like what works with basketball because generally I've kind of been of the mind. A team is either going to be a crash the glass team. We're going to try to get those extra opportunities and we're just at risk of getting burned in transition or we're going to prioritize getting back in transition and we just don't care about the extra opportunities on the offensive glass the way that the Suns are able to tag up. So shot goes up, we are finding bodies more so than like finding an area on the floor. They have been so consistent with that all year long. And this is where you get these one on ones with Ryan Dunn when he comes off the bench. You mentioned Dylan Brooks and the other guards that could fly in for these offensive rebounds and if they don't get it, guy gets a defensive rebound and turns around. He already has a member of the Phoenix Suns in his face. So you don't get the early grab and go opportunities, you don't get the quick hit aheads. Not as often anyway to be able to attack in that way. And so the fact that they are what, top five in offensive rebound rate and they have been one of the best transition defenses in the league this year since Christmas. It's a 97 defensive rating in transition, which is. That is an unsustainably low number. But it also just speaks to yeah, when we nail our principles, we're getting extra opportunities and you don't get any of the easy stuff which allows us to set our half court Defense, which again, we're going to get there later, but that has been super impressive to me and to the three point shooting. Watching all these guys just let it fly has been a joy for me. They are one of the highest three point rate teams in the league in transition. They are the only team in the NBA that's taken at least 50% of their shots from three. So they very much nailed the margin in that regard as well. So again, I think a lot of that is coaching. But the players have to take the shots, the players have to make the shots. And largely the Suns have done that.

Zach Lowe (95:36)

This year and they, and they've done it with Grayson Allen the best three point shooter on the team. I mean historically missing a lot of games and you know, they've already shown in crunch time since he comes back. Since he came back. He's kind of like their sixth starter. Like their first sub of every game will be Grayson Allen for Gillespie. And at the end of games, like the Booker Grayson Allen two man game with Grayson Allen screening and doing who knows what, Every sets of pick, he could roll, he could flare out this way, that way is like super dangerous defensively. They're sixth in the NBA six with a relatively untested center in the middle of it and a lot of guards. Like they're not a big team, which is one of the reasons why they're 23rd in defensive rebound and they're just kind of small. But they're tenacious as all hell. They're on a string completely. Like when they rotate, they rotate together. No one is messing up their rotations. No one's pausing to be like, all right, that guy went there, where do I go? No, they're like completely on a string. They force a ton of turnovers, which is critical for the possession game obviously, but they foul a lot. But if you're going to foul a lot, this is the upside. You've got to get, you've got to take the ball from the other team a lot and they're doing that which is helping their offense. Are they getting a little lucky with opponent shooting? Maybe like they're fifth in three point percentage, opponent three point percentage, and they're 26th in opponent percentage at the rim. So opponents are feasting at the rim. And my worry about that would only be that rim defense is a little bit more controllable than three point defense. So like the 26 at the rim might be indicative of some structural issue with their team. Whether it's Mark Williams still learning his way and chasing some blocks that he shouldn't chase and leaving the boards naked behind him or just being small or switching a lot and whatever. And fifth and threes might just be a little bit lucky. But even if those things turn out to be a little bit true in both directions, this is a top 10 defense. Just the effort level, the switchability where they put Brooks and Dunn and O' Neal out there at the same time at the 2, 3 and the 4 and just can switch everything there. It's really powerful. I just think this is a rock solid defense. I don't know schematically if you've seen anything interesting you want to talk about like how they're doing this but. But sixth in defense is a home run for this team.

Nikais Duncan (97:58)

Yeah, I think it starts literally at the beginning of possessions. They are one of the top five teams in terms of how often they're picking someone up in the backcourt and because of how good those guards and those wings are at pressuring the ball. It's not token pressure like we are getting into you. We can turn you over there as well. In terms of how quickly teams get across half court. Third slowest in terms of how quickly they get into their actions against the Suns. Third slowest mark in the league. And so they bleed the clock early and then as you mentioned, they get into this switchability, they get into this level of cross matching. Like as you were talking a little bit about Mark Williams, one of the things that popped early for me with him, like one he's just on the court so I'm glad to see him playing. But beyond that they would mix in. Let's put you on this non shooting wing so we can keep you low on the floor. When you are directly involved in pick and roll, it's not always going to.

Zach Lowe (98:44)

Be a deep drop.

Nikais Duncan (98:44)

Sometimes when it's.

Zach Lowe (98:45)

Sometimes he's up at the level. Yeah, he's up being aggressive.

Nikais Duncan (98:48)

We're going to creep you up to the level and if this turns into a late switch, we are going to trust you to do that. Like 40 switches on the year doesn't sound like a lot but you look at some of the Charlotte numbers, like that is pretty high for him and like a lot of that part of that is going to be him being injured and missing time. But the fact that they trust him to do that sometimes I think it leads into your rebounding question as well. But it's a level of trust that they have in him and so it is difficult for teams to get into their actions. When you look at what the Suns are doing off the ball. Like, I wish I had a number to track this, but they certainly feel like one of the higher, like top locked teams in the league. If you are trying to set up a pin down or stagger or something, we are sliding directly in front of you. You have to cut back door. We're going to be grabby to your foul point.

Zach Lowe (99:28)

Physicality, like, we're going to annoy the shit out of you and we're going to make you give up sometimes. Like, all right, I guess this isn't the possession for this. We're just not running this this time.

Nikais Duncan (99:35)

Yeah, they just bleed you dry. And to your point, you have this starting unit and then you go to the bench and oh God. Now it's Jordan Goodwin who's also going to pressure his full court. Here's Ryan Dunn that can defend multiple positions. Here's Osogadaro. We can ramp up the activity if you want to have them at the level and turn those into flat out hedges or blitzes sometimes or we're just flat out switching everything. We're going to flatten you out that way. And so the fact that they have this kind of streamlined rotation with what they want to do defensively has been really impressive. I certainly believe in it.

Zach Lowe (100:03)

They also just have no weak links. There's no one really that you can pick on now like Grayson Allen is not great, but he's big and he's tough and he's physical. Gillespie's pretty big for his position. You can't really pick on him that much. Booker has been good defensively now for a while. He's just a good defensive player. By the way, I think I made a mistake not having Booker on my all star roster. I have to remove somebody to get him on because I just think the amount of attention he draws on offense like he's, he's in these games. I've watched him recently against Miami and another team that I'm blanking out on that had a guard that he felt like, I can hunt this guy every single time. And you're going to have to be like, it's not that he's that much bigger or even that much quicker than Tyler Herro, but he is a little quicker and he's just so much more powerful and comfortable in the mid range that you're going to have to send people at him and everyone else is open. I think I got to remove somebody. I just like, who am I supposed to remove? Denny Abdia has got to be on the team and I don't want to hear about Portland's record. The only reason their record is even near where it is is because of him.

Nikais Duncan (101:08)

Because of him.

Zach Lowe (101:09)

Kawhi because of missed games. Maybe I remove him. Chet was a pop. Chet was a popular choice among Phoenix fans. Like if you're going to have you can have Chet over Booker. Like Chet's a distant second option. Like I don't know. I got to think about it. But I do think I was wrong in that Booker needs to be on the All Star team representing the Suns.

Nikais Duncan (101:27)

No, I think that's fair. Like I would probably go Booker over Kawhi. I am very much a gainsplay stickler when it comes to these kind of things. Like I know it doesn't count for the All Star game but if I'm already thinking about all NBA and award stuff anyway I just kind of want to have that consistent for me. So that's probably the one. But as you mentioned some of the mismatch hunting and things I did want to ask you a question. How do you feel about the Suns against Switches?

Zach Lowe (101:48)

Offensively I feel like you're leading me somewhere. I mean off the top of my head other than Booker I don't feel great but. But I bet like Gillespie just taking step back threes over big guys on Switches and Grayson Allen doing the same thing Mark Williams is post game has got a little better. I think you're are you going to tell me that they're better than than by the numbers than I would suspect by the talent. Like they don't have the classic like blow by perimeter guy or like the 6, 8 Kawhi size wing who can just put small guys in the basket. But I bet they're pretty good.

Nikais Duncan (102:27)

They haven't been good this year at least statistically. The reason but no the reason I wanted to ask is because I'm in a headlock with it because I think if you're projecting Phoenix forward I think the offense is the thing that you poke at and I think because Devin Booker is like your only like a minus a a plus advantage creator it's easy to say they face a good defense in the playoffs. They're just going to switch flatten things out and how are they going to create and looking at it per cleaning the Glass It's a 110.5 offensive rating against top 10 point differential teams so far this year. That's one of the worst offenses in the league. And so that's where I'm like I don't like this. This is an indicator that it's going to be bad. But they do have Devin Booker and he is so good at winning matchups. It was like do we get to a point to where he's so good it doesn't matter and or because they're also so good on the offensive glass, even if they don't make the initial shots and that brings some of the numbers down, they're getting extra bites at the apple anyway and they're able to offset it. And then their defense is just really good. So it's more so like a playoff question. For me I wasn't.

Zach Lowe (103:25)

But it's not only a playoff question, it's a bigger, bigger picture question. As Suns fans would delight in telling me. I had the under on this team at 34 and a half. I just didn't trust first of all the west is the west and second of all I was just like who is creating offense on this team if Devin Booker misses 25 games or when Devin Booker is on the bench for 15 to 18 minutes a game. I just don't know how they're generating offense. And this was before Jalen Green got hurt and they've answered that question well enough with Gillespie, particularly Gillespie. But like Jordan Goodwin will go out there and mess things up and they've just. And Jalen Green will come back. Grayson Allen, they've answered it well enough. And in that sense I've said this before but when we talk about these like this came up when the Yanis stuff was noisy about a month ago, these Superstar trades that four picks, four swaps for a 30 whatever year old that the Suns were cautionary tale number one around the league having traded Bridges and Johnson and a million picks and swaps for 35 year old Kevin Durant. Not that Giannis is 35, he's not, he's 30 or 31. And a trade I didn't love at the time. But you know, there was this idea that it's Durant, you have to do it. Well, do you have to do it? And yeah, they are a cautionary tale for that reason. But I've said this, I said this about a month ago. They should also be almost an inspirational tale in that they have rebounded from that hell so fast based on effort, character, defense, a singular superstar leftover. Yes. But all of that stuff plus coaching, they're not just like a cute hey, they're going to win 38 games and maybe make the play in they're 24 and 16 and they've sustained through the harder part of their skit. Their Schedule started off very easy. It's been hard the last two or three weeks. They've sustained it through that. They've had a lot of good wins in this stretch and they're like straight up bad news for a team like the Lakers who are, who are what? Two games in the loss column ahead of them right now, none in the win column. So a game above them and feel like entitled to a top six spot, you're not entitled to anything because Phoenix is not going away. And in that sense, yeah, they gave up all this stuff for a team that flamed out spectacularly. But here they are. They're back, they're competitive, the fans love the team. Like you can get to competitive in the NBA if you have the right kind of ingredients. On the other hand, your playoff switchability question. It is interesting to zoom out. Like this feels great right now for the Suns. Suns fans should be thrilled with their team. They still don't control any of their picks through 2032. Malawatch has basically not played this year other than garbage time. Rasheer Fleming showed some flashes in the last month or so, particularly defensively. He's interesting. Mark Williams is good. You know, it is fair to sort of wonder like where is this going long term? How do they actually pivot to becoming a very good to great team again? But for now I'm like, okay, tabling that question. I think it's still a fair question. And your point about their performance against playoff offenses I think gets at it. But for me it's still the good side of this that weighs out. Like they went from cautionary tale to yeah, maybe they are. But we can also take positive lessons from what they've done in just the last eight months. They've built a competitive team like this.

Nikais Duncan (106:50)

Yeah, I think to that end the vibes were so bad last year. Like even if they did end up being like 36 and 46, like you probably take it if there's a level of enjoyability about this team. And so the fact that they are just legitimately good, like again we I think the defense is very real. The offense, you have some question marks. So I was asking you about the switches. But like it has been good enough. They can still win the variance game if nothing else with the three point shooting, I think it shows like to your point, it's very quick to turn, it's very easy to turn this thing around or you can do so more quickly than you anticipate. And I think because you have Devin Booker specifically as kind of the son of this Offensively, it's a lot easier to find, like bargain role players that can just kind of slide in. Like, I think because you can move Devin Booker around to the degree that you can and you have other shooting, like, it makes it easier for a guy like Jordan Goodwin to pop in a context like this because you already have like a bunch of guys that are taking the three. So all he needs to do, screen, cut, defend, you just kind of fit into the ecosystem. And if you're basing your success on your defense anyway, he naturally slots in. So, like, I do wonder if this ends up being 45 wins, 46 wins, 47 wins or whatever. I do wonder how aggressive they want to be the following offseason because I think the peak point is a very important one to bring up. But, like, I don't know if they have to do anything major this upcoming off season. Like, you can kind of just build this out, win around the margins again and then as you get closer to another pick unlocking or if you do want to explore some of the younger guys, can we move someone like Jalen Green is going to come back at some point. Like, he's probably going to be the quote, unquote asset if they do want to be more aggressive just because of the salary, the ASD upside, but I think they're in a pretty good spot. That is not something that I anticipated saying heading into the season.

Zach Lowe (108:34)

And look, I was a. I think I used the word queasy about Booker's extension and I would still like be a little queasy about $70 million in 2030 like they did. They didn't have to do that last summer, but they did. And look, he's played fine. He's played well enough that I'm not queasy really right now.

Tim Legler (108:51)

I'm a little.

Zach Lowe (108:52)

Still a little queasy, but it is what it is. This is a going rate for a player of this caliber. Dylan Brooks being extension eligible this coming off season is interesting to me and I would, it would be interesting to me if I were Dylan Brooks's agent as well. And I agree with you. I would agree with you about Jalen Green that, you know, if they ever decide to get a little, a little aggressive, that he'd be he him plus whatever they can trade would be the thing. You know, everyone brings them up when these point guards become available, like Morant and Trey Young or whatever. I don't think they're doing anything with this team this year and it's certainly anything big or I think they're done with that kind of stuff for now and they're just going to build it out. Can I throw a Lakers thing at you real fast before we go?

Nikais Duncan (109:37)

Yes. I also have a Dylan Brooks thing for you. But go oh quickly. On the Dillon Brooks point career high in scoring as we know. So he is ISOed 191 times this year. Last year regular season at playoffs that was at 192. So he's already about to eclipse that number. And on trips featuring a Dillon brooks Isolation it's 1.13 points per possession. That's 13th right outside the top 10. It's been very good. Some of the names that he is ahead of on this list, Zach Joel embiid, Kevin Durant, DeMar DeRozan, Jamal Murray, Jalen Brunson, Giannis Kawhi, Jalen Brown, Devin Booker, Anthony Edwards. What am I looking at with all of these Dylan Brooks turnaround jumpers and pull up jumpers? Like he has been such a saving grace in the second half of possessions for them and like we talked about them earlier in the season when they got off to this 8 and 5 start and he was averaging 20 and I said I don't know if this is sustainable. Like I think his 2 point percent is going to come down, his 3 point percent is going to come up, he's going to level out and it's like no, he just keeps doing it. If he's just 20 point per game guy while also defending at a near all defense level if not in all defense level, like yeah, you probably do just extend him. Like he's been very important in terms of setting the culture and this is like multiple spots now to where his toughness and him being an irritant and the kind of effort that he brings in has helped uplift a group. If he's that plus this offensively, like why am I trade. Why am I even thinking about trading Dylan Brooks?

Zach Lowe (111:04)

Oh no, no you're not. And, and yeah, he's shooting 50% of mid range shots. That's a big part of it. And he's shooting 72% at the rim. That's a career high by an enormous amount. His free throws are at a career high level. He's just been astonishingly good and he deserved. And also how about leading the league in technical fouls by like twice as many technicals as everybody else? He's on. He's one away from getting suspended already. It's like dude, are you trying to be Rasheed Wallace? What's happening here?

Nikais Duncan (111:37)

I saw the graphic during the broadcast, it was like him at 15 and second place was like at like 8. I was like, how did this happen?

Zach Lowe (111:43)

Even Draymond Green is like, settle down, man. Like, what's going on? All right, here's my quick Luka take and I want your take on this, okay? The numbers are outrageous. Than the three point shooting, which we know has been a little up and down, not mostly down this season. Lakers offense is mostly pretty good. Something is just. Something just is off. To me, watching him play in the last couple of months and I was talking to Legler off air about this and he thinks part of it is that his defense has slipped and his, you know, his defense has slipped. Teams are going at him and it's. It's getting ugly. The complaining to the refs is kind of back and nobody likes to watch that. But like all of that is just. That's the Luka experience. Something about as effective as he's been in the restricted area and on short twos. Something about the pick and roll ecosystem is just malfunctioning is too strong of a word. Just I'm watching it and I'm like, this is. This doesn't look like Dallas. And maybe part of it is just simply Dallas. Very intentionally built a team designed to play pick and roll basketball with Luka Doncic, and the Lakers did not. They had Luka Doncic fall into their lap midstream while building another sort of team. Can you. Do you feel this too? And if you do, can you try to teach me? Like, what am I? What is leaving me cold?

Nikais Duncan (113:06)

I think I have felt a similar way. And I was talking to Steve about this the other day. Funny enough, I haven't loved the Luka process this year, and I think so much of this is the roster context. But we talked about him earlier in the year where he was knocking down like 70% of his floaters. He was shooting well above 50% on his Midis. And I was like, this is cool, but he's not winning drives in the same way. You mentioned what he's shooting at the rim. He just does not get to the rim as often as he used to. And like, some of that is spacing, so it's not all him, but some of that is just the burst. And I think I watched these Lakers and he racks up these numbers because of how good he is. But in terms of like the shots that he's taking and when he's taking them, like, that's probably been my bigger issue with the three. Specifically more than the percentage. Like so many of these are ISO early in the clock and it's like if you don't have it going, if you're not on one of your first quarter heaters, I really don't want to see this from you because the percentages do not vibe with that. But the inside the arc stuff has just been weird. He has not been able to work deep enough into the paint consistently enough. And that's where you're not getting the same like late kickouts that we're accustomed to seeing.

Zach Lowe (114:12)

There are Luke up passes that are like not happening. Some of them is like he still has the ball fakes and the goofy stuff where he tricks people and looking the other way and then kicks it. But there's just something that's missing and I've had a hard time putting my finger on it. I just know it doesn't look the way it looked in Dallas. And obviously the lob catching three point shooting structure around him is not the same. But like to your point about the burst, I can't remember who they were playing maybe a week ago, five days ago, the other team, it was kind of a soft blitz, but they blitzed him on the pick and roll. And he just decided in that moment, for whatever reason, I'm splitting this and I'm going hard north south. And he like jetted to the rim for a righty layup and I was like, oh my God. Like he looked at this. All of a sudden I feel like I haven't seen that in a long time. And it feels less like he's playing within a team context and more like he's playing Luca ball with the Lakers around him. Just something feels off and I'm having a hard time putting, putting words to it. And it. Their offense has been good and we all know the defense is the issue. Something is just not sitting right with me. I mean they're, they are down to. Where are they offensively? They're eighth and offense, they're good. Maybe I'm complaining about nothing, but something just doesn't feel copacetic to me.

Nikais Duncan (115:31)

It's not enough rim pressure for me with Luka and I think if he's not going to have the good three point shooting season, you need the rim stuff. The mid range scoring is impressive and I think once you get late in games and he's picking at matchups and he can just knock down those kind of kill shots from the mid range, you feel those more. But just over the run of an entire basketball game, like it feels like a lot of that and with him not having like, you know, Jackson Hayes is kind of the closest thing he has to like a traditional like rim roller because DeAndre is more short roll stuff like, you don't really have that rim threat. Luke is not getting all the way there. And because the Lakers aren't stopped with shooting, like, you can send help from different places against Luke on some of these drives. So again, all of this isn't just him. Some of this is the context around him making it more difficult. But I think that's where you're feeling it. He can rack up these numbers. It's not putting pressure on the defense in the same way.

Zach Lowe (116:18)

And I don't want anyone misinterpreting this in any way. Had I had a ballot, Luka would have been an All Star starter for me. They are scoring 119 points per 100 possessions with Luka on the floor and 111 with him off the floor. This is in no way revisiting the trade in any possible way. Don't do it. He wasn't right. Nico wasn't right. It was a bad trade. The Mavericks are a tire fire right now. Saved by Cooper Flag.

Nikais Duncan (116:46)

None of that.

Zach Lowe (116:47)

Just something doesn't feel right. All right, Nakais Duncan the Dunker Spot with Steve Jones Jr. Is must listen. It's a great peloton accompaniment for me. You're the man. Thank you for your time, bud.

Nikais Duncan (116:56)

Thanks for having me. Always a pleasure.

Zach Lowe (117:00)

All right, that's it for the Zach Lowe Show. We'll be back early next week to talk about whatever the heck happens in the NBA in the next 72 hours or so. Thank you to Tim Legler, the great Tim Legler from espn. Thank you to Nikhias Duncan from the Dunker Spot. His insight is second to none. Thank you to Mike, Billy and Jonathan on production. And thanks to you for listening to and or watching the Zach Lowe Show. We'll see you soon. Must be 21 or over in President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over in President D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-G GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com, call 1-888-78-9777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit MD gamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York.

Tim Legler (118:00)

This episode is brought to you by 20th Century Studios.

Zach Lowe (118:03)

Send help.

Tim Legler (118:04)

From the twisted mind of Sam Raimi, director of the Evil Dead, and Drag.

Zach Lowe (118:09)

Me to hell, starring Rachel McAdams and Dylan O'. Brien. I like both of them. Comes a new film that begs the.

Tim Legler (118:15)

Question, what would you do if you.

Zach Lowe (118:17)

Were stuck on an island with your.

Tim Legler (118:19)

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Zach Lowe (118:22)

HR can't hear you scream. Only in theaters in 3D. January 30th.

Tim Legler (118:26)

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