Under-The-Radar Moves of the Offseason with Fred Katz, TV Recommendations with Joanna Robinson, Lakers Check-In, Plus Mets Corner Continues with Sean Fennessey

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Zach Lowe Show Episode: Under-The-Radar Moves of the Offseason with Fred Katz, TV Recommendations with Joanna Robinson, Lakers Check-In, Plus Mets Corner Continues with Sean Fennessey
Release Date: July 31, 2025
Host: Zach Lowe
Guests: Fred Katz (The Athletic), Joanna Robinson, Sean Fennessey

---

Introduction

Zach Lowe kicks off the episode with brief mentions of the ongoing NBA season, restricted free agents, and upcoming discussions on under-the-radar offseason moves, TV show recommendations, Lakers updates, and Mets insights. The episode sets the stage for an eclectic mix of sports analysis and entertainment recommendations.

Under-The-Radar Offseason Moves with Fred Katz

Timestamp: [02:31] – [24:14]

Discussion Highlights:

• Fred Katz's Focus: Fred Katz emphasizes his passion for uncovering less-publicized transactions, distinguishing between high-profile moves by teams like the Lakers and Nuggets and more subtle changes.

• Zach's Nominees: Zach lists several offseason moves he considers under-the-radar, including extensions for Herb Jones, Jalen Williams, Chet Holmgren, Ryan Rollins, and Jabari Smith Jr.

• Fred's Pick: Fred highlights the Washington Wizards' complex trade maneuvers, particularly focusing on their acquisition of Cam Whitmore and the subsequent use of trade exceptions to create substantial cap flexibility.

  Fred Katz: "The Wizards are giving up $40 million with 26, 27 money... It's unbelievable value." [07:05]

• Jabari Smith Jr. Extension: Zach nominates the Rockets' five-year, $121 million extension with Jabari Smith Jr. as a key under-the-radar move. He praises the mutual commitment and potential growth of Smith.

  Zach Lowe: "It's a great deal for him and by his agent... I'm betting on Jabari Smith Jr. to outperform that." [23:49]

• Fred's Agreement: Fred concurs, appreciating the Rockets' negotiation tactics and the lack of a player option on year five, making the extension more team-friendly.

  Fred Katz: "He's got to punish that kind of stuff more as he gets deeper into the playoffs." [24:13]

TV Recommendations with Joanna Robinson

Timestamp: [43:21] – [68:08]

Discussion Highlights:

• Zach's Need: Zach seeks Joanna Robinson's expertise to recommend TV shows that cater to both his and his wife's narrow tastes—minimal violence, low suspense, and positive themes.

• Joanna's Recommendations:

  1. The Hour: A BBC show set in the 1950s about launching a fictional news organization. Joanna highlights its similarity to "Mad Men" and praises the cast, including Ben Wishaw and Dominic West.

     Joanna Robinson: "It's really, really good... it's a perfect underrated gem." [46:16]

  2. Party Down: A comedy featuring Adam Scott as a caterer aspiring to be an actor. Joanna underscores its strong cast and humorous portrayal of everyday jobs.

     Joanna Robinson: "It's a true comedy and a really, really good one." [50:52]

  3. Better Things: An FX show about a single mother raising three kids in Los Angeles, blending sarcasm with emotional depth.

     Joanna Robinson: "It has the bones of a family sitcom with a dry perspective." [57:04]

  4. You're the Worst: A show that balances meanness with core camaraderie, ideal for viewers seeking humor without excessive cruelty.

     Joanna Robinson: "It rides that line perfectly." [60:14]

  5. Crashing: Phoebe Waller-Bridge's series about messy relationships and personal growth, praised for its humor and relatability.

     Joanna Robinson: "They're so funny and soft-hearted at the center." [61:17]

• Honorable Mentions:

  • Slings and Arrows: A Canadian show set in a Shakespeare company, noted for its smart comedy and early performances by Rachel McAdams.
  • Pushing Daisies: A whimsical show about a man who can bring people back to life with his touch, blending macabre elements with charm.

Notable Quotes:

Zach Lowe: "I need a TV show to watch that fits the extremely narrow Venn diagram where my tastes and my wife's taste overlap." [43:18]

Joanna Robinson: "It's very British and classy with sarcasm mixed in." [48:26]

Lakers Check-In

Timestamp: [68:08] – [115:20]

Discussion Highlights:

• Luka Doncic's Conditioning: Zach discusses Luka's transformation, referencing a Men's Health story about his improved physique and speculating on its impact on his performance and the Mavericks.

  Zach Lowe: "If this lasts, the big story is the Lakers have a top three NBA player in the kind of condition he's never been in." [84:13]

• LeBron James and Team Dynamics: The conversation delves into LeBron's statement about valuing a realistic chance to win, questioning whether the Lakers are positioning themselves appropriately alongside Luka.

  Zach Lowe: "LeBron should want a guy who can share ball-handling duties with him." [93:19]

• Trade Speculations: Zach and Fred discuss potential trade moves involving Anthony Davis, Mark Williams, and other key players, analyzing the Lakers' strategy amidst a competitive Western Conference.

• Qualifying Offers and Kaminga Negotiations: The episode touches on Jonathan Kuminga's strained negotiations with the Warriors, highlighting the uncertainty surrounding his future and its implications for the team.

  Fred Katz: "The Kaminga transaction... is one of the two or three most important pending transactions in the NBA." [110:19]

• LeBron's Future: Speculations on how the Lakers might adapt their roster around LeBron and Luka, considering aging players and the need for flexibility in trades and extensions.

Notable Quotes:

Fred Katz: "I'm telling you, the Wizards are going to try to insert themselves as the third team to deals all the time." [12:59]

Zach Lowe: "Shouldn't this excite LeBron James playing with that version of Luka Doncic?" [90:10]

Mets Corner Continues with Sean Fennessey

Timestamp: [115:20] – [End]

Discussion Highlights:

• Bullpen Acquisitions: Sean Fennessey discusses the Mets' recent additions of Tyler Rogers and Ryan Helsley to their bullpen, addressing the team's long-standing need for reliable relief pitchers.

  Sean Fennessey: "Tyler Rogers is having a fine year... he is a top seven, top eight closer in the game." [84:46]

• Trade Analysis: The conversation covers the Mets' trade decisions, specifically giving up prospects like Drew Gilbert and Jose Dihatto for established relievers, evaluating whether the deals were beneficial.

  Zach Lowe: "How does Marte fit in as a Dharma? What do they need the most?" [92:30]

• Offensive Struggles: Zach expresses concern over the Mets' hitting performance, highlighting low on-base percentages and OPS from key players like Luis Robert Jr. and Kevin Pillar.

  Zach Lowe: "If those three guys don't produce at elite levels, none of this other noise is gonna matter." [97:14]

• Managerial Decisions: Sean touches on Mets manager Buck Showalter's pitching change strategies, critiquing the timing of pitcher removals and their impact on game outcomes.

  Sean Fennessey: "Mendoza has been tasked with something tricky... every day if the bullpen makes a mistake, it looks like his mistake." [110:20]

• Team Dynamics: The discussion includes the Mets' reliance on key players, the inconsistency of their offense, and the potential long-term effects of current management decisions.

Notable Quotes:

Sean Fennessey: "They're 28th out of 30 teams with runners and scoring positions." [93:40]

Zach Lowe: "Bases loaded, no outs. I'm conditioned myself." [93:45]

Conclusion

Zach Lowe wraps up the episode by reflecting on the diverse topics covered—from intricate NBA offseason moves and in-depth TV show analyses to detailed team-specific discussions about the Lakers and Mets. He thanks his guests, Fred Katz, Joanna Robinson, and Sean Fennessey, and signs off with his signature enthusiasm, promising to return with more insights after his vacation.

---

Key Takeaways:

• NBA Offseason Moves: Strategic trade exceptions and player extensions can significantly impact team flexibility and future prospects.
• TV Recommendations: Balancing diverse tastes requires thoughtful selections that blend humor, intelligence, and minimal negative content.
• Lakers Dynamics: Balancing star players' conditioning and team-building strategies is crucial for championship aspirations.
• Mets Performance: Bullpen strength is essential, but offensive inconsistencies and managerial decisions can undermine overall success.

Notable Quotes:

Zach Lowe: "This is the most eclectic show in the history of the Zach Lowe Show." [End]
Joanna Robinson: "It's a thrill for me to help recommend shows that fit your unique tastes." [65:03]

---

Final Note: This episode exemplifies Zach Lowe's ability to blend comprehensive sports analysis with engaging conversations on entertainment, offering listeners valuable insights and recommendations.

Transcript

[Zach Lowe]

This episode is brought to you by HubSpot. In the playoffs, extra possessions are everything. Same goes for growing a business and HubSpot's customer platform gives you more chances to win Breeze. Their built in AI automatically takes care of marketing, sales and service tasks so you can game plan for growth. It's easy, efficient and most importantly, it's effective. Customers are cutting sales cycles in half and getting hours back each week. That's like turning those contested jumpers into clean looks at the rim. That's good. Visit HubSpot.comai to learn more.

[Joanna Robinson]

This episode is brought to you by JCPenney and if you've been to JCPenney recently, yes, JCPenney, you'll know it's becoming the way to find good clothes for prices that still make sense. They've got hidden gems for everyone and every budget with deals and rewards that actually make a dent. If you already shop JCPenney, you feel like you know a secret. But if not, it's time to ask. Wait, am I sleeping on jcpenney? Shop jcpenney.com yes jcpenney coming up on.

[Zach Lowe]

A fun all over the Place Zach Lowe show. We start NBA. Yeah, the NBA is still going on. Jonathan Kaminga still hasn't signed anywhere as of this recording. All the restricted free agents are still out there. There's drama. Lucas Skinny. We have Fred Katz from the Athletic coming out. We're going to pick our most underrated favorite move of the summer. Under the radar. It's got to be under the radar. That means it can't be the Lakers, can't. It can't be the Nuggets guys because they got so much attention for their brilliant signings because the team is so good. Under the radar favorite move and move you look back on, you're like wait, that happened? WTF was that move? I don't really love that. Well, we're going to pick one of each then. Joanna Robinson the Joanna Robinson is coming on to recommend TV shows for me and my wife who have a very narrow sliver little Venn diagram space of overlapping taste. Joanna is coming to the rescue. I'm going to unleash some hot takes about modern television. It's going to be wild. And Mets corner trade deadline Juan Soto injury Lot to talk about on Mets Corner 7 game winning streak followed by now as I'm recording this, we're struggling against the Padres a little bit. Lots going on loaded Zach Low show before I head out on vacation. Hope you all enjoy it. Welcome to the Zach Low Show. It's late July I'm about to go on vacation. But not before we dispense with some last minute NBA news and some evaluations of the summer that may have gone under the radar. Fred Katz from the Athletic, how are you?

[Fred Katz]

I'm great, Zach. I'm ready to talk about some under the radar stuff. This is what I live for. I live for the. The stuff that nobody is talking about that I can then sift through and try to find.

[Zach Lowe]

So this is what I like to do after every summer I go back. We, we've hit all the big transactions, all the medium sized transactions, all the glamour teams, all the contenders. I like to go back through the whole list and remind myself, ooh, what little move did I really like? And what not even just necessarily little, just little in terms of the attention it received. So anything from the Lakers disqualified. Knicks disqualified. Contenders like Nuggets, Jonas Valentunas, Bruce Brown, disqualified. You got a lot of love for that. Norm Powell got a lot of love for that one. Miami. What under the radar move? Oh, yeah, you know what? I remember liking that. And then another move. It's like you look back and you're like, oh, that happened. Why the hell did that happen? WTF was that move about? I hate that. And I said, we're gonna pick one of each. Are you ready?

[Fred Katz]

I am ready. I got one of each.

[Zach Lowe]

All right, we're gonna start positive because, you know, summer, my friend Kim would say, it's summer and we're in a good mood. Here are my nominees, and I don't care if your pick comes outside the list of my nominees. These are just my nominees for Happy under the Radar. Ooh, I like that move of the summer. Herb Jones, three year, $68 million extension with the New Orleans Pelicans. Jalen Williams and Chet Holmgren extensions with the Thunder not being the full supermax, and in Chet's case, not having any escalators at all. Ryan Rollins, three years, $12 million with the Bucks. Now we're getting deep. The Wizards acquiring Cam Whitmore for two second round picks. Here's one that's nominated in both categories. Isaiah Jackson, three years, 21 million, fully guaranteed. Indiana Pacers, Yabu Selli, two years, 11.5 million. Knicks trend in Watford on a one plus one minimum for the Sixers. Teamed up with Jabari Walker on a two way. Luke Cornette, 4 years, 41 million to the Spurs. Almost too high profile for this category, but it gets in because that 441 is actually closer to two years 24 million because year three is only 2 million plus guaranteed year four team option day. Ron Sharp, two years 12 million to the Brooklyn Nets, Cole Anthony and Jericho Sims on minimums to the Milwaukee Bucks and another one that's nominated like the Isaiah Jackson one in both categories because why not Jabari Smith Jr. Five year $121 million extension with the Houston Rockets? Fred Katz, was your happy under the radar move on my nominee list or did you go off the grid right away?

[Fred Katz]

It was kind of on the list, but not really. So. So my, my move is a move that I guess is kind of a few moves, but it was really just one transaction in one and it involves the Cam Whitmore trade.

[Zach Lowe]

So whiz baby.

[Fred Katz]

Mine is Zach, I have spent so much time in my life talking about Washington Wizards trade exceptions and I'm going to add to that time right now.

[Zach Lowe]

I don't want to say that. I don't want to say that that's wasted time, Fred, because you're a guest on my podcast. So congratulations on the time you've spent dissecting the Washington Wizards in general.

[Fred Katz]

Yes, this is, this is what I, this is what I do. I think about the Wizards more than any sane human being should think about the Wizards. So it wasn't the Cam Whitmore trade. I like that for them, that's basically take a flyer for two second round picks on a dude who might have a lot of potential and can really score and see what you can get. To me, that was part of a string of just like really interesting moves in terms of how they structured it from a cap perspective. So that really started when they traded Jordan Poole, Sadiq pay, and the 40th pick in the 2025 draft to New Orleans for CJ McCollum, Kelly Olynick and like a top 50 protected second round pick.

[Zach Lowe]

And let me stop you there. That trade from the New Orleans perspective should be on the. What the fuck just happened here? Why did you do this? Except I've already done that segment of what the fuck just happened here. Why did you do this? Why were you so eager to trade for Jordan Poole on the flip side? And obviously good trade for the Wizards?

[Fred Katz]

Yeah, I thought about doing that. I feel like people piling on New Orleans is just like, is so over the radar now.

[Zach Lowe]

I feel like that's why the Herb Jones. That's why the Herb Jones extension on my under the radar deals. Congratulations on that one, Pelicans.

[Fred Katz]

Herb Jones consistently signing team friendly deals. His previous one was like 14 million a year. For a guy who can defend like that it's a great number for them. But so really what I loved about that from Washington was forget about the players involved. Basically what this deal is telling you is that Washington was able to get off of $40 million of what they considered unwanted salary in 20, 26, 27, because Olynek is expiring. Jordan Poole is under contract for two more years. So Sadiq Bay is under contract for two more years and CJ McCollum is expiring. And so the Wizards are giving up $40 million with 26, 27 money. And they're basically doing it for the price of the 40th pick in this year's draft, which ended up being Micah Peavey. That is unbelievable value. In order to get that amount of money, that in order to dump $40 million of money, it should cost way more than the 40th pick in the draft. And possibly the Wizards are going to be able to get back like a 50 something pick in 27 to be able to make that up even a little bit more. So now the Wizards are going to get like close to $100 million in cap room next year, not including their first round picks and whatever they have there. And I love the way that they use this deal to spawn off other deals and create these really cool trade exceptions which give them even more flexibility. On top of all the cap room they might have next summer, for the first time in 10 years, they're going to have cap room. The Ramon Sessions cap hold is still on their book, Zach. So the Ramon Sessions cap hold next summer will finally come off of the Wizards books. I can't wait. The Yan Mahimi cap hold is finally going to come off.

[Zach Lowe]

I remember when Ramon Sessions was going to turn the Lakers around.

[Fred Katz]

It's going to be a huge deal. So what the Wizards end up doing is that's basically its own trade. They come back and they agree to the Cam Whitmore trade. Separately, they do two seconds for Cam Whitmore. Now they could have done that deal on its own because they had a $9.9 million trade exception from the Jonas Valanchunas trade when they traded him to Sacramento. And they could have slid Whitmore into the Jonas Valentunas trade exception, but they didn't. What they did in order to preserve the onus Valentunas trade exception was they looped the Whitmore deal into the Jordan Pool deal, making it a three way deal. They ended up giving up the exact same amount of stuff, getting back the exact same amount of stuff, and they Got to keep the Jonas Vallenciunas trade exception. Then they take Kelly Olenek in what was technically a separate deal, but was part of the plan, and they trade Kelly Olenek to San Antonio. They bring back Blake Wesley and Malachi Branham, two former first round picks. I don't think the Wizards really cared that they were two former first round picks. They released Blake Wesley and I don't know what kind of opportunity Branham's going to get, at least right off of the bat. However, what they do here is they had a $5.2 million trade exception from Johnny Davis. The salary matching for that worked with Olynic for those two guys.

[Zach Lowe]

Oh, my God, let me.

[Fred Katz]

But so when they made the Johnny.

[Zach Lowe]

As you're saying this, I'm going to go remind myself who Johnny Davis was drafted over because that. What an all time disaster draft pick.

[Fred Katz]

Zach, can I just say something? I was listening to your podcast, I don't remember a couple pods ago, and you. You were. It was. Must have been you and Simmons were. Were joking about. Has anybody ever shrugged upon drafting somebody? The Wizards? I immediately thought the wizard shrugged with.

[Zach Lowe]

They drafted oh in the draft room. Like it wasn't. Oh, this is my. This is my rant that I did on Bill's podcast about how I wasted 11 minutes of my life watching the Phoenix Suns inside the draft room. Let us take you inside the draft room where all our polos are matching and we're super excited about everybody we pick. And I said, I want to see the one draft room that's like, oh, God, our guy just got. We got to take this guy. By the way, two picks after Johnny Davis's J dub, just FYI, amongst a bunch of decent players. Anyway, Wizards back to back.

[Fred Katz]

That's real tough. So the Wizards traded Johnny Davis to Memphis earlier last season and they created a $5.2 million trade exception. So what they did here was instead of just matching salaries in the Olympic trade, they structured it differently and they used these trade exceptions to create a larger one. So they. They slide Blake Wesley into the biannual exception, which can be used as a trade exception now, and they slide Branham into the Johnny Davis trade exception, which allows them to create a $13.4 million trade exception from losing Kelly Olynic. And that's what they wanted out of that deal. They wanted a $13.4 million trade exception. So now, as opposed to the Wizards having to use the. As opposed to the Wizards having to use the Valentunas trade exception in order to take in Whitmore and being left with just the MLE. Now the Wizards have nearly $100,000,000 in cap room next summer. They have a $13.4 million trade exception which is very usable. They have a $9.9 million trade exception which is VERY usable. They have the $14.1 million mid level exception which they could use as a trade exception or a free agency exception if they choose. And they haven't used any of that. And they're going to be able to, like I'm telling you, the Wizards this year, they're going to try to insert themselves as the third team to deals and more deals need three teams than any other type than in any other era of the NBA because of the current rules. You got like first apron teams trading with first apron teams and one team needs to dump money and the Wizards are going to try to be that team all the time and they're going to say, yeah, give us a second round pick and we'll take the money. Give us a first and we'll take the money. They've got these two big expiring contracts with McCollum and with Chris Middleton to where they'd be able to take in long term money if they want to use their cap space early this summer. They have a lot of opportunities to be able to be flexible in this rebuild and take on more assets now. And meanwhile they're about 30 some odd million dollars below the luxury tax. So they probably won't use all three of those trade exceptions that they have that are nice and sizable. But if the situation came up to where they had to, they could figure out a way to use pretty much all of them and stay away from the luxury tax. So I just thought they did a really good job being able to kind of maneuver this from a cap perspective and set themselves up with the ability to take in kind of these more tinier assets in the future that I bet you will happen.

[Zach Lowe]

Was there anything in any of that about the players that play basketball for the basketball team or are we just going to like, this is all going to be great when the NBA crowns the Wizards, the 2025, 2026 Sam Hinkey Memorial Cap Management NBA champions. Like, congratulations, you have a lot of cap space, you have a lot of trade exceptions. Can we talk about the team for a minute? Like, I'm glad you brought them up because they and the Nets are the two teams that I just haven't talked about at all because there's nothing interesting in terms of what they are trying to be next season. We all know what they're trying to do next season. They have, as I have said many times, a very interesting collection of young players. I like what Washington has done in the Michael Winger era. I liked Alex Starr's rookie year. Is he going to be a guy guy? I don't know. I like Bub Carrington fine. I like Keyshawn George fine as a role player. I don't know if this shot ever going to come along. Trey Johnson is exciting. Is he going to be a guy guy? We'll see. A.J. johnson, a lot of untapped potential there. Will Riley. We'll see. There's just like I love Koulibaly despite the fact that after an incredible first month last season, he kind of backslid. I like there's a lot to like. Everybody knows there's a lot to like. Everybody knows that there is not necessarily the tent pole guy yet. I'm not going to close the book on one or two of these guys. Maybe, maybe long shot developing into that. The more interesting question to me though is what you just said about is, is where all that cap flexibility takes us because I think there's, there's a scenario where the Wizards get to next off season and they decide we are going to do our little junior varsity Eastern Conference version of what the Rockets did two seasons ago where we want to hit the gas a little bit on our development and splurge on veteran free agents who can help us win some more games, be competitive, teach our young guys. I'm not comparing them to those Rockets who were clearly ready for a big leap and clearly had like a, A plus young talent already in the door and Ahmed Thompson and Shen Gun and on and on and on. The Wizards aren't there. Or do they get to the end of next year and discover, you know what, we're so far away that not only did we just tank last season, we're just going to be a salary dumping ground again for draft picks and draft picks and draft picks and move the thing forward. I think both of those scenarios are in play. I frankly think the Wizards would like scenario A to be in play because I don't think they want to be bad for like this long. But I, I, there's a fork in the road and I don't know which way it's going to go.

[Fred Katz]

Yeah, if I had to bet, I would bet that it's going to be the second one and not the first. I would bet they're going to be a salary dumping ground either at the deadline and or over the summer. And honestly the number one reason why they still owe a top eight protected first round pick to the Knicks and they are going to do everything in their power in order to keep that pick this year. They are going to lose.

[Zach Lowe]

This is not about this year. My fork in the road is about. No, I know, but it's about the 26, 27 season.

[Fred Katz]

NBA beyond, no question. However, when you're in the process of just like trying to lose to make sure you can keep that pick. Because it's not just about keeping that pick either. They have a swap with Phoenix, but they only get the swap with Phoenix if they have a top eight pick. So if they finish ninth or on, that pick moves on and they don't get the swap. So in order to get the swap with Phoenix, which for all we know could end up being a really high pick, that's within the realm of possibilities, then they're going to want to lose. And if they're losing that much, if they're losing as much as you kind of have to lose in order to.

[Zach Lowe]

Be so far away, they're going to be so far.

[Fred Katz]

Like if you win 19 games again or 21 games again and it's coming off a season that you won in the teens, it's really hard to justify doing what the Rockets did. And I just don't necessarily know if that's the direction they're going to go in. I think they have very measured leadership at this point. Ted Leoncis, their owner, has, has put a lot of faith in that leadership so far. He's also the guy who famously stated six, seven years ago that they would never ever tank and some.

[Zach Lowe]

He's also the guy who wrote the blog post about how Jordan Crawford, Andrea Blatch and I think John Wall were the new big three in Washington sports and then he got so embarrassed by the blog post that he deleted it. Oh yeah, like that's like a lead, like an OG blogger move. Like I'm just going to take this down. Is anyone going to notice if this just disappears?

[Fred Katz]

That was like 2010. That was like 2010. That was like, that was like infancy of NBA blogging.

[Zach Lowe]

Honestly. It's an underrated owner online self own. Like it's, it's, it's not Comic Sans, but it's, it's like closer to Comic Sans that it gets credit for. And the fact that it was deleted makes it even funnier.

[Fred Katz]

It's, it's a great piece of Ted Leonis lore. I look, I, I appreciate that Noner at least was putting out the, putting out his thoughts on the team regardless.

[Zach Lowe]

You know, he's sitting there, he's got the draft up like Bub Carrington, Bilal Koulibaly and Alex Sar are the next. You know what, you know what? Let's just, let's just back, let's just bag that. Let's just keep that one in drafts.

[Fred Katz]

I do think he's a little more realistic about, about what they've got with this team. I think he's, he's more measured than he used to be. Like I've, I've talked to people over there. I think he handles himself as kind of the governor of the team differently than he did even five years ago when he was pushing. You got to get the eighth seed, you got to make the playoffs. That could change. It could change back to what it was before. He could say, I can't stand this much losing for this long. You got to just at least be somewhat competitive. I have heard no signs of that actually changing from everything I hear. Like the organization as a whole is pretty bought in on this. So my guess is they will try to take on bad salary again next year and then once they're kind of free from having to owe a pick because that pick extinguishes or it either extinguishes and turns into two second rounders or it conveys this year and then it's done. Once they get past that, I think then we're going to start to see them pick up and try to become more competitive. I think this year is the last one where it's going to be the Wizards like this and then we'll see. Like, you're right. I didn't mention any players. Easily the easiest thing to do well is make a good trade when you're not trying to get better. The hardest type of trade to make is make a good trade when you are trying to get better. It is a lot easier to make a trade when whether it makes you better or not is totally off the table. So you're totally right on that front. However, I don't know, it's a little jarring given the Wizards recent history, to see them valuing stuff on the margins in these tiny little things. They've always been good at trade exceptions, but to be able to see them kind of maneuver this.

[Zach Lowe]

They should make that. They should make that the team slogan. Washington Wizards basketball. We've always been good at trade exceptions. Put that on a T shirt, I'll sell like hotcakes at the store. It'll outsell cool Bali jerseys Zach the.

[Fred Katz]

Davis Berton's acquisition was oh my God. Brilliant.

[Zach Lowe]

All right.

[Fred Katz]

It was brilliant. Trade exception.

[Zach Lowe]

I'm hitting I'm hitting the Zach Galifianakis between two Ferns button on the on Wizards cap minutia. Here's my one piece of advice to the Wizards and it's more important than the trade exceptions. Make the Cherry Blossom uniform part of your regular rotation and make it maybe your main uniform. End of thing. My pick for the Zach Lowe under the radar move that I don't think got talked about enough. I'm going to go with a big one, actually, at least in terms of dollars. I'm going to go with The Jabari Smith Jr extension, five years, $121 million super early for a first round pick entering his fourth season to get extended. It kind of came like, wait, what? Why now? These usually happen in October. What's going on? It was like the first big move of the off season or post Desmond Bain trade and then it got swamped by free agency and Kevin Durant and other things. And I just, I love it for both parties. I like it for Jabari Smith Jr. Because he's had a you know, this is a guy that was rumored to be the number one pick in a draft that had Paolo Banchero and Chet Holmgren until the very last second when he was not the number one pick and Paolo was and he was the third pick. This is a guy who has played the three, the four, the five for a team that doesn't seem to know exactly what to do with him positionally. This is a guy who spent frankly, a lot of last season just kind of spacing the floor and looking for, you know, open threes and defending his ass off. He his usage rate has dropped in each of his first three seasons in the league, incredibly unusual for a guy who again, was rumored to be the number one pick in the draft right up until the last minute. He averages you know, I gave Michael Porter Jr. A lot of crap, not a lot of crap. I just pointed out that he averaged something like four drives per 100 possessions according to the tracking data, compared with Cam Johnson, who's 12 13, and how much just that extra juice will help Denver. Jabari Smith Jr. Averaged even fewer drives than that. His handle is famously the subject of sort of snickering among the NBA cognoscenti and he is tentative in traffic. He does get picked now and then. He doesn't look confident when the help comes as a passer or as a driver or as A finisher. And yet Fred Katz. I like Jabari Smith Jr. I think he's a winning player. I. He just turned 22 years old, like two months ago, and I've seen enough glimpses of decisive attacks on closeouts. Decisive face up and blow. He likes to go left face up and blow by someone left. Triple threat, one dribble finish. There's a lot. There's so much room to grow, to even become an average ball handler, right? Like, he's got to get to a point. Team. Teams are unafraid to put any kind of defender on him. We'll hide little guards on you. We don't think you're going to post them up or do any damage on the glass. We'll hide big centers on you if they're not already hiding on Amen Thompson, because we don't think you can blow by those guys. He's got to be able to punish that kind of stuff more as he gets deeper into the playoffs if he's going to be a big rotation player for the Rockets. But I'm not looking at his handle at age 21 and being like, well, that's just all there is. He's going to be a glorified three and D guy. He's going to be a good three and D guy. He can defend every position. I think he cares about the right stuff. I, I think this deal is good for him because it locks in $121 million. You could play hardball and be like, oh, he should have waited. That's too low. What if he blows up? It's a shit ton of money. And for the Rockets, it sounds like a lot, and it is a lot. First of all, it declines in 27, 28, when Amen Thompson's big deal is going to kick in, and Kevin Durant, if he signs an extension, will be on the books. That's important. And at the end, it's going to be like 12% of the salary cap, 13% of the salary cap. I'm betting on Jabari Smith Jr. To outperform that. I like this deal for both teams. It, it, it evinces a certain happiness, contentment. I like it. That is my winner.

[Fred Katz]

I, I love that deal, too. I, I love the way the Rockets have structured a lot of these extensions that they've done. Like they actually negotiate on their rookie extensions. You see some teams who just kind of give all that they can give, and that's about it. And to appease the player, and the Rockets actually negotiate. And one of the nuances of the Jabari Smith deal that I saw that I liked was no player option on year five.

[Zach Lowe]

Straight up.

[Fred Katz]

Just straight up five years. A lot of times these deals you'll see player option on year five didn't have that. 20 million is kind of just what you get for a normal starter. And I also think that Jabari Smith is really important for what the Rockets team identity is, which is this is a team that has just decided we are going all in on, on size. Like something that I considered for my WTF move, which I'm, I'm not gonna have because it's not like I hate it is. Is. Is the Clint Capella one where I.

[Zach Lowe]

Was like, where it's one of my nominees.

[Fred Katz]

Where, where is this, where does this fit into everything? You've got Stephen Adams and you've got Sengun and you've got Jabari Smith and you've got Kevin Durant. Like, they're going to put out these lineups. Tari Eason, they're going to put out these lineups that are just going to be all engulfing and they have just been all in on size. They love those lineups with Adams and Sengun last year, those double big lineups, and they used them a ton in the playoffs to a lot of success in a lot of really high pressure, high leverage situations. They're all in on size defensively. They're all in on size from forcing turnovers. They're all in on size from taking away the paint. He fits their, their, their defensive style incredibly well. He's 22 years old. Like a lot of the things that we're talking about, I think if he barely improves, I think this deal is probably fair. If he improves a lot, then all of a sudden you're looking at a really team friendly deal. And you're right. From his perspective, like, $121 million isn't the same in the NBA's ecosystem, but it's still $121 million in the real world. So jump on that while you can.

[Zach Lowe]

It shows a mutual commitment to me. We like you, you like me. Let's get a deal done. And I think what you just said is important about his development. Like, I don't think he's ever going to be like a great ball handler or score in traffic or whatever, but I think he could be competent. And you know, he's, he's swung between. Like, is he going to play some small ball five to. Oh, he can't ever play small ball five because we have all these centers we're going to play two of them at once and it works. He's going to have to play the three and like run off pin downs and do guard stuff. And I think that positional flux combined with playing on a team that just hit the gas dramatically right when he got into the league, basically, in terms of we're trying to win now as much as we can, has really made for a murky developmental path for him in terms of like, what can I do? How much freedom do I have? I'm betting on Jabari Smith Jr. Living up to the contract. Okay, my nominees for WTF. Under. Under, under the radar. WTF. Wait, what happened to Move of the Summer? This is my nominees. You're not beholden to the them. Trey, man. Three years, $24 million from the Hornets. Okay. Quinn Capella, three years, $21 million from the Rockets. The Blazers acquiring Drew Holiday, who is set to make 32 million, $35 million and $37 million on a player option over the next three seasons in exchange for Anthony Simons. The Utah Draz trading Colin Sexton in a second round pick to Charlotte for Yusuf Nurkic. Dennis Schroeder, three years, 45 million, year three, only $4.3 million guaranteed. That saved the Kings from my, from being in my winner's circle on this. Isaiah Jackson, nominated again here three years, 21 million on a descending deal with the Pacers and Jabari Smith Jr. And Jakob Pertle signing a what amounts to a four year, $104 million extension. Picking up his player option for 26, 27 and then 27 million. 29 million, 27 million. Fred Katz was your winner on my list or did you go off the board? It was.

[Fred Katz]

But I need to ask you a question first. How did Isaiah Jackson make both of your lists?

[Zach Lowe]

Because I need to hear the logic because I've read.

[Sean Fennessey]

Wow.

[Zach Lowe]

Like, it reminded me almost of the Peyton Pritchard deal where I, I actually had people in the league being like, hey, what'd you think of that Peyton Pritchard deal? It feels like a lot for a guy who's played for Boston. I'm like, I don't know, it's $8 million. Like, if he's bad, who cares? It doesn't matter. And I've seen people write in the media and heard people say in Vegas, like, hey, did that one surprise you that they picked up his qualifying offer and then signed him to a fully guaranteed 3 year, 20 million dollar deal coming off an Achilles tear? And like, are we sure that he's good? And, and so I've heard that. And that would be the WTF version. I actually think the deal is totally fine. And that's why it was nominated in the other category. Three years, 21 million is like, if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. They see potential in him on both ends of the floor. He clearly has something as a rim runner, rim protector, athlete kind of guy. Not rim protection is just. Okay, he's a little undersized and like it's a descending deal for half the mid level exception. Like the baby mid level. Like, I don't, I think it's a totally fine thing. You could be like, well, they could have gotten this guy for the minimum. And like, why are they doing this? I'm like, okay, it's their guy. They paid him some money, I don't care. So I would have, I have it more positive than negative, but that's my answer.

[Fred Katz]

Okay, that's a good answer. Yeah. Last year he's making like under 4% of the cap last year of his deal. Okay, my pick was on your list. And it's not even because I hate it. It is because I have never been so. I can't remember the last time I was so mutually confused across the board on a deal. And it's Colin Sexton in a second round pick for Yusuf Nurkic. I just honestly don't get it from either side. The Charlotte side, I get it off guard. Scoring is just not valued in the league right now. We've seen it in a million different transactions this summer. I assume Charlotte must have really valued the second rounder. Charlotte loves piling up second rounders. They got like up to 15 second rounders over the next seven years and they just want to be able to take on that second rounder. But honestly, the best way that I can describe this is you can usually when you see a trade, take a guess on who called whom. Like who is trading for whom in this scenario? And you can take the guess and figure it out. You know, the, the Rockets called the Phoenix Suns to talk about Kevin Durant. Obviously that was the Rockets trading for Kevin Durant. This one was strange to me because the second round pick was going to Charlotte when Youssef Nurkic was just dumped. And also a very strange salary dump last year where the Suns kind of messed up the order of operations doing the pick trade where they, they converted their 2031 unprotected first into three protected seconds. They kind of messed up the order of AKA reparations and possibly cost themselves some assets in the process and then dumped Nurkic using one of those seconds. So they were dumping him, and now all of a sudden he's expiring. Sexton's expiring. But they do that deal on the Hornet side. It's like the Hornets have so many people who either need to dribble or just will dribble. Like, they've got Lamelo and they've got Brandon Miller and they've got Trey Mann and they signed Spencer Dinwiddie and they've got Miles Bridges. They have all these other dudes who are going to need shots. They need shots for Con Knippel. They have no centers now, now that Nurkic is gone. They have. They have Mason Plumlee and they have Moussa Diabate, who, honestly, I'm kind of obsessed with watching because he is the most fun. He's not the best rebounder in the league, but he's the most fun rebounder in the league because he's completely and utterly unhinged. He just like absolutely crawls after the basketball and doesn't stop moving and his feet are insane. He doesn't care to ever box anybody out and yet gets every rebound. I think the hornets were like 11 percentage points better on the offensive boards when he was on the court last year, which is like ridiculous. It's like absolutely outrageous. But, like, I don't need Mouse of Diabate as my like 30 minute center and I don't need Mason plumlee as my 30 minute center. And again, I get it, the Hornets aren't trying to win. But like, I don't understand what that does for you other than getting you. I think it's a 2030 second round pick. But here's what's also weird about it, Zach. It's like a 2030 second round pick, but the Hornets have nine second rounders from 2030 to 2032. Why was it not another year? Like, you think they want to spread it out more? I was just like a little. Meanwhile, Utah just kind of casually threw in a second rounder and Utah's a lot of first, but Utah doesn't have a lot of seconds. Utah, meanwhile, has Walker Kessler. They have Kyle Filipowski. Like, I. Utah is, is trying to get the guys who can make him good out of there right now. I get that part. It's. It's very, very strange. You know, the Collins deal got Collins out of there and it got them a pretty sizable trade exception, which is good for them. I. I just, I don't, I don't. I Don't really understand it for either one. Like, if Yusuf Nurkic was going to get traded, I did not think that was going to be it. And if Colin Sexton was going to get traded, I did not think that was going to be it. Especially when, like, is Nurkic. If there's a world where Nurkic is playing behind Philipowski and Walker Kessler, if that ends up being the case at any point this season, like, is that good for the Jazz? Like, is that good for Yusuf Nurkic? And if it's not good for Yusuf Nurkic, is that good for the Jazz? Like, it wasn't great when Nurkic wasn't playing in Phoenix last year either. Like, I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't get it. I don't understand.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, this is why when the trade happened, so many people were convinced that, at least from Utah's perspective, well, something else must be coming, because this doesn't make sense. Yeah, I don't. I mean, I don't really love it for either team. The more you talked about Charlotte, the more I'm like, maybe they're just trying to retrade Sexton down the line after they raise his value. He's on an expiring deal, as is. As is, Nerc. And I think for Utah, it was just like, we need to not just clear out the good guys, we need to clear out, like, the ball handlers. We need to give our guards and wings all the reps they need. Which is why I have not one eye, but both eyes semi permanently looking in the direction of Lowry Markkanen, who immediately became the most interesting trade candidate in the league when Utah announced to the world, yeah, we're selling everybody off. And look, they extended him. He's making a lot of money. He's got to rehab his value a little bit. Didn't. Didn't play enough last year. He missed a whole bunch of games, as did everyone with the Jazz. But I just. I'm. I'm looking. I'm staring over there, like, constantly. Keep an eye on Ryan Kalkbrenner in the Hornets center rotation, by the way. They like him a lot. Yeah, I. It was a strange, strange trade. My nominee is going to raise some eyebrow. My winner going to raise some eyebrows. I don't really understand why the Raptors were in a hurry to pay Yaka Pertle $100 million. He's. He's a good player. He's. He's good at lots of stuff. I don't know what he's great at. He's no longer a great rim protector. He's just good. He's good. He's almost 30 and so this extension now takes him through the 20, 29, 2030 NBA season. Your team is okay. Like I think they're okay. Like I don't like what is Jakob Hurdle? What is the. Is, is there a $20 million a year difference between Jakob Hurdle and Deandre Ayton? To me they kind of remind me of each other at least when Ayton is trying of guys who are like pretty good at lots of stuff, not good, not great at anything and in Pearl's case like a total non threat to shoot the basketball from outside 10ft. Now in Jakob Pearl's defense he is an absolutely elite, elite, elite short range floater shooter. I'm talking 50% plus accuracy every year. He's an elite screen setter. He's a decent passer. He finds cutters. He can catch the ball on the roll on four, on threes. And I thought last year got more aggressive like one dribble power up to the rim, got nice touch with both hands. He knows where the shooters are if he's got to pass it out. I think one reason Fred where that he may have gotten a little more aggressive going to the rim in those situations Is he shot 67% at the foul line last year which for Jakob Pertle is like basically Steve Nash levels of accuracy at the line for a guy who's been in the 40s in some seasons before and very obviously afraid to get fouled. Even last year, two and a half free throws per game for a starting center playing huge minutes is not enough and it's not even close to a lot. It's like almost 8 in levels of free throw phobia and like, like but he's, he's good. I'm also not sure in this mix of players given the adequate to not good shooting around Pearl, how often he's. Those pick and roll skills are really going to get to sing. It's not a guy you want to give the ball to in the post very often. And I think that's actually if you ask the Raptors why did we do this? I think it's because he's, he's good. Like he's a good player. I think it's because the plus minus data, data would show you that their entire team has collapsed without him, particularly on defense the last three seasons. He's their player. They drafted him, they traded him and they retraded him, retreated for him and I think if you're trying to do this middle ground thing, middle build thing where you, you know, tank the one year and then you build it, build it, build it, build it, build it. And you're trying to be competitive and you're trying to be good. They just have no other center option on their team that's even close to reliable. Mamu's their backup center. And then from there it's small ball. Mobo Murray Boyles, who I like that they drafted and I, and I think they just view him as if we're going to be competent. He has to be on the team or a center at his level has to be on the team. I just didn't really get the rush. I mean he was already on the books for the next two seasons and now you're paying him in the high 20s, almost 30 in 29, 30. I just again, he's a good player. I just, I didn't get it and I felt like it went under the radar because it's the Raptors because it's a relatively anonymous player and a lot of other stuff was happening and I went back, I was like, man, that's a. I don't get that one. Do you get that one?

[Fred Katz]

No, I don't. And on top of that, so like that kicks you in 2728, right?

[Zach Lowe]

He picked up his player option for 26, 27, 19 and a half million and then it is, it's essentially 3 year 85 million extension on top of that.

[Fred Katz]

Right? So that kicks in 2728. So that means 2728 season the Raptors are going to have Scotty Barnes, Brandon Ingram, Emmanuel Quickley and Jakob poeltl. Just those four are going to be making almost $147 million. That's a lot of money to commit to a team that has not even proven to be a play in team right now. By the way, the Raptors are sneakily in the tax. I think they'll find a way to get out of it, I think. But the Raptors are sneakily in the tax right now. Like this is a team that is, is committing dollars and committing years. And like the market is not saying that you need to commit years to anybody right now. I think only four actual free agents, I mean extensions have been different, but four free agents have signed four plus year deals so far this summer. That's it. At least four years guaranteed. Like Luke Cornett doesn't count because he's not guaranteed for a bunch of them. But like if we're talking at Least four years guaranteed. Only four free agents have signed. I think last year the number was. Was 13. Like, you're not getting years anymore in this, in this cap environment. And the Raptors are locked up with high money and with years. They gave the extension to Brandon Ingram, too. Where I could just be like, look at the way that this summer has gone. If the Raptors hadn't extended Brandon Ingram and they wanted to kind of play hardball with him, like, I, I don't know if Brandon Ingram would be making $38 million this year, $40 million the next year. Like, I don't. I don't know if that would end up being the case, but they signed him to an extension shortly after trading for him, and obviously that was, like, part of the move. But the Raptors have committed dollars and years to a core that hasn't won anything yet. And I'm, I'm just very skeptical when you have a group in general who, when they are at their best, the team is not necessarily at their best. And you look at, like, RJ Barrett had, honestly, under the radar, improved last year. Way better passer than he ever was. They put it. He was way better in transition, and they let him run the offense more with, like, quickly missing a lot of time and whatever else. But RJ Barrett at his best when he has the ball in his hands. Emmanuel Quickley at his best when he has the ball in his hands. Scotty Barnes is a guy who they've been trying to kind of improve as a facilitator. And a lot of these guys, Brandon Ingram at the. At his best when the ball is in his hands. However, when these guys have the balls in their hands and other guys don't, they're not going to complement each other and they're going to put somewhat of a ceiling on your attack. And I'm just very curious to see how they all bring the best out of each other, how they mesh, if there's a lot of just kind of standing around. They've tried to run motion offense and that kind of stuff before and tried to get out in transition, and sometimes it's looked really good and really creative and ended very well. May. It also may not look like any of these guys are at the best versions of themselves in the process. And if the, if the Raptors end up like 9th, 10th, 11th in the east and they have this much money committed to this roster, like, you're kind of. You're kind of locked in and I'm with you, like with Pearl, it's just the timing, it's like you had two years. You can, you can, you can wait a year. And that extension is probably going to be there. The chances of Yaka Pertle taking some kind of leap and adding a three pointer and becoming a $35 million a year center is incredibly small. You know, like it. Chances are that deal is going to be there the next summer, and he's still going to want the security of an extension summer.

[Zach Lowe]

It's a great deal for him and a great deal by his agent, whoever that is. Look, I've already done my deep dive on the Raptors and we'll let all the pieces fit. And where is this team? I've done it actually, a couple times. People can listen to that on just Purdle alone. I can hear the fans saying, wait a second, just compare this dude to DeAndre Ayton. Like the guy that got bought out, and every team that has him can't wait to get rid of him, seemingly. I just meant skill wise. I don't think there's a $20 million difference between the two players. And I get that Purdl is a completely self aware and selfless player. And then I can hear the front office saying, you just hit it, Zach. Selfless. We have a bunch of guys who want the ball and want to score. We need a guy to set screens for them, get them open, hit them when they cut, and hold the entire defensive ecosystem together. And he's the only option we really had to do that. And so we paid him all this money. I just, I didn't get. I. I get all that. I just don't like the deal, that's all. Fred Katz, what do we got coming up from you?

[Fred Katz]

We got some vacation coming up for me. I just did a four part series over at the Athletic on looking at each of the four remaining restricted free agent guys. So you can go check that out. Pulled a bunch of people around the league, got a pulse on how they value all those guys and kind of delved into that. And otherwise there is nothing going on in the NBA. So we got nothing.

[Zach Lowe]

All right, well, I'll see you on the other side. Thank you, Fred Katz.

[Fred Katz]

Thank you.

[Zach Lowe]

All right, now we're in for a treat. It's the off season. Nothing's going on. I'm about to go on vacation. You know what I need? I need a TV show to watch. But not just any TV show. I need a TV show that fits in the extremely narrow Venn diagram where my tastes and my wife's taste overlap. We're talking no violence. Like, zero tolerance for violence. When people recommend me a show and said, oh, your wife could do it, there's only like a little, like, couple of arms get chopped off. I'm like, you don't understand what you're dealing with. No unpleasant suspense. Which means Severance, for instance, is out. There's very little violence in it. I love severance. I'm addicted to it. But there's just a general tone of foreboding and corporate malice involved. And so I enlisted you, Joanna Robinson, because you're an expert at this A plus plus podcaster. I cannot tell you enough how much I enjoyed getting to know your voice and your techniques and your just general pleasant demeanor listening to the Severance recap podcast and that, that introduced me to your general line of work. I just, I'm so excited that you're joining us and you're gonna help me out.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, my God, what a thrill. I love a puzzle. I love an impossible challenge. And when you said, recommend something for my wife and I to watch, happy, easy, thrilled. And then you started narrowing the parameters, I was like, all right, this is getting tougher, but that's almost more fun. Like, a really, really narrow assignment is quite fun. So I have some thoughts and some plans for you.

[Zach Lowe]

No violence, Minimal unpleasantness. Minimal unpleasant suspense. And generally, like, as. As the world has gotten darker, her tolerance for just like profound negativity, even if it's like, you know, is a little limited. I gave you a couple of examples of shows that have just smashed the middle of that Venn diagram in the past. Mad Men, a plus for us. Halt and Catch Fire. I'm an evangelist for Halt and Catch fire overall, but a plus for us on the comedy side. 30 Rock Shrinking. Those are four of the all time low family hits. So with that said, yeah, I have a TV vacancy. Nothing has scratched our itch lately, and we've tried a bunch of stuff that hasn't taken. I'm hoping you can help us out.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay, let me ask you quickly about Mad Men, which was like sort of my guiding star in a certain degree. When the lawnmower, like the riding lawnmower happens and that blood spray happens. Your wife could handle that. That's okay. Your wife could handle that degree of. Or just one scene and she can look away and she can handle the arterial spray of that.

[Zach Lowe]

That was a tough one because that was sort of unexpected. Although as soon as the lawnmower, the office environment, you know, something bad is going to happen. But it was, it was like sudden and. And Very red.

[Joanna Robinson]

And then over.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, yeah, and then over. And also like there's just a general knowledge that plus or minus maybe like an office suicide of some kind. There's just generally not. It's not going to be that kind of show.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right.

[Zach Lowe]

So like she. I can get by that and move on.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay, so my number one, given your love of Mad Men and Halting Catch Fire, you like competent adults working. It sort of seems to be a, a theme there. 30 Rock is in the mix too. I want to recommend the Hour. That's my number one recommendation for you. Have you heard anything about the Hour?

[Zach Lowe]

Zero. I don't even know what it is. I'm just, I'm scarred because there was a movie called the Hours which changed my. Changed my entire movie watching diet because it was so relentlessly depressing that I was like, I can't cannot watch a movie like this ever again. So we're going uphill from there.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay. Only uphill from here. This aired two seasons 2011-2012. You can currently find it on Amazon and Apple to purchase. So you have to trust me that this is worth a purchase. But it is a, it's a BBC show and it's set in the 1950s and it is about the launch of a fictional news organization in the uk. So it's very Mad Men coded in terms of like this is an office of whip smart people wanting to figure out how to tell the news in an entertaining way. Very broadcast news in that way. How do we tell the news that is both entertaining to people but also journalistically integral? And it's got a great cast. Ben Wishaw is like one of my all time favorites. Is here. Dominic west is here. It's just, it's a really, really good cast. Really flew under the radar. But if people are looking for a Mad Men halt and Catch fire sort of replacement, I think the Hour is a perfect underrated gem. So that's my number one.

[Zach Lowe]

Dominic west is Wire, correct?

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, that's right.

[Zach Lowe]

McNulty.

[Joanna Robinson]

McNulty. Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

I. It's. Where are we on the serious humor? Is it. Is it a nice meshing of both? Is it more on the serious side? Where do we land?

[Joanna Robinson]

I think it's, it's. I think it's a nice blend, especially that first season. I think it's a nice blend because we are serious and earnest and trying to do the news, but we're very British and we're very classy and sarcastic and so that's all in the mix as well. And Dominic west plays this very, like a cad, a caddish news anchor. It's very, very good role for him.

[Zach Lowe]

So look, anybody. I am a walking TV stereotype in that the Wire is my all time favorite show. So, like, just anything with anybody from the Wire in it, I'm very proud. My wife watched half of an episode of the Wire with me and was like, no, no, no, no.

[Joanna Robinson]

She's out.

[Zach Lowe]

She's like, I understand this is probably tremendous. And everyone is saying it's tremendous. I just can't do it.

[Joanna Robinson]

And I think for. For people who love following, like, Peggy's story on Mad Men or, you know, the Women of Halton Catch Fire, Romula, Garry is basically the main character and the producer of this program, and she's very, very good. So I think it's. I think it's a smash hit. And I don't know why it wasn't a bigger hit in America. Maybe a little too British for some people, but it's. It's really, really good.

[Zach Lowe]

You know what? I like a lot of what you just said, though? Two seasons. I have to. I'm not going in with, like. I got 10 seasons to get through. It's a huge time commitment. So you have watched Halton Catch Fire, it sounds like. I don't know if I've ever listened to you talk about it.

[Joanna Robinson]

No, I never recorded about it, but yeah, it's.

[Zach Lowe]

Are you a fan?

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, yeah. It's an incredible show. I don't know why it wasn't a bigger hit. I know that for, like, the first season starts, and then the second season just explodes into something else entirely and it just becomes this incredibly compelling show.

[Zach Lowe]

So, yeah, once a year on my podcast, I just start evangelizing for people to watch Halt and Catch Fire. And it's the rare show. It's four seasons, not big lift. It's the rare show that gets better and better and better and better the entire time. And it's funny, I just wanted to say, because you said, if you like the plot of the Women of Halton Catch Fire, it was such a cool evolution of the show, which clearly started as, like, Mad Men for tech, right?

[Joanna Robinson]

The LI Pace show sort of thing. Yeah, yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

Lee Pace. Handsome, mysterious, might be hiding a secret, but he's a slick, handsome salesman. Blah, blah, blah. And then it becomes this show about loving your work and putting everything in your soul into your work at the expense of other parts in your lives. And particularly women in tech and venture capital become the kind of heart and soul of the show. It's just I can't. It makes me so angry that nobody watched the show. Okay, so the hour number one. Let's go to number two.

[Joanna Robinson]

Number two on. On the two seasons only front, I will say actually there's a third season, but you don't have to watch it because it's a much. It's one of those much later sort of vestigial seasons. Party Down. Do you know anything about Party Down?

[Zach Lowe]

I've heard of Party down, but I.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay, that's.

[Zach Lowe]

And I've heard that it's good, but I don't know anything about it.

[Joanna Robinson]

You love Severin so much you listen to other people podcasting about it, which hopefully means you love Adam Scott.

[Zach Lowe]

Oh, Adam Scott is in this.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yes. Is Adam Scott's like his first big show. Adam Scott, Lizzy Kaplan, Martin Starr, Jane Lynch, Megan Mulally, Jennifer Coolidge, Ryan.

[Zach Lowe]

Sorry, what? What? What? How do I not know about this?

[Joanna Robinson]

I know a plus cast, incredible show. Ran for two seasons, 2009, 2010. And it's about a group of cater waiters, you know, and Adam Scott is a former child actor now turned cater waiter. And it's just, it's.

[Zach Lowe]

It's.

[Joanna Robinson]

You were talking to me a little bit about your. You were lamenting the lack of real comedies these days. And we could talk about that a little bit more if you want to, but Party down is. Is a true comedy and a really, really good one. A really, really fun one. It's not too wacky and once again, it's people doing their jobs mostly well, sometimes well. And Adam Scott is incredible in this. Like really much more in his severance mode than in his Parks and recreation mode. But this is, this is a great Adam Scott vehicle.

[Zach Lowe]

I, I enjoyed hearing all the stories about how there was Ben Stiller faced pushback about casting Adam Scott in Severance and how he fought for him and it was such a. He's so fantastic in it and he fits the role so perfectly. Party Down. I'm. Everything you just said is going to be hard to beat in the next three slots. Give me a top five. This is. And I, I don't want to get too far on a comedy tangent because we can do this another time, hopefully, if you will indulge me. But this is my completely like, you are an expert at this. I am just like a dumb guy who watches some shows every now and then. So my. It's like. This is the teeth. It's like baseball. I'm just giving my uneducated hot takes my, my most passionate, uneducated Hot take. And I say uneducated because I'm probably missing the shows that, that would scratch. This itch for me is I'm trying all these shows that are allegedly comedies, and I'm not even talking about the bear, which is like so far away from a comedy. It's not even trying to be a comedy. And it's somehow classified as one for the Emmys. It's actually insane. I'm talking about shows that are pitched as comedies, and I get to the end of every one of them or every episode, I'm like, I don't think I laughed out loud one time. Can you just be funny? I understand you're trying to be teaching me about life lessons and, you know, all of these kind of ethical, moral quandaries and this. I just. Can you just tell some jokes that make me belly laugh? I'm like, where is the next 30 rock where I'm just laughing the entire time. They have to rewind because I missed a joke. That's what I want. Party down is going to get me there.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think so. I think of all the things that I have to offer you today, Party Down Will, is the closest that's going to get you there. Because you're right, it's hard to find a comedy that everyone hasn't already watched that really is truly funny. And I think Party down is. It qualifies. And I. I have been thinking about that. I do want to talk to you more in depth about what happened to the TV comedy. Like, just go.

[Zach Lowe]

Just give me the Cliff Notes. Now.

[Joanna Robinson]

I would say that there's a couple things at play. One is, in general, we're moving away from the world of comedy because comedy is a communal experience and we're becoming more and more isolated watchers. And so, like you and your wife watch together and if you belly laugh together, that's a lovely thing. A lot of people are watching this stuff, you know, by themselves and. And the comedy is not really what they're chasing in that moment, I think. And also, I would say the emergence. I've been thinking about this a lot. The emergence of social media, tick tock, Instagram reels, all that sort of stuff. You've got this sort of rapid fire reactionary comedy that exists online in these little bits and pieces that people are glomming on to in a way that's even hurting. Something like snl, like Saturday Night Live has a hard time feeling like relevant and frank fresh, because you have to wait all the way until Saturday to get your commentary on what's going on. So forget something like Seinfeld, which had, you know, months to sort of come up with interesting reactions to what's going on in our culture. Somebody's already made 20, 100, a thousand TikToks about it. You've already heard the jokes about this sort of thing. So I think what is the deal with kind of comedy can't work anymore in our social media world?

[Zach Lowe]

So I'll tell you one that has been recommended for me is the Detroiters or Detroiters.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

Because. But I like. I think you should leave. I have not. I've just seen the YouTube sketches. I've never really sat down and watched a show. But it's. It. It's the absurdist nature of it is very appealing to me. My wife doesn't really like that kind of comedy. Is Detroiters too far in that direction for us? Have you seen it? Is it strange like that?

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay, I think it would.

[Zach Lowe]

Maybe I'll do solo too close to that.

[Joanna Robinson]

But I think you should leave is a really good example of, like, you can watch the clips, but there is something different about the entire experience of watching a whole episode of I think you should leave just because of the mix and you just get pulled in further and further into absurdity. So that's. That's a really good.

[Zach Lowe]

I'm just gonna give. I'm just gonna give one example because it's fresh on my mind. I don't like all these people work so hard on these shows and they're all. They're all good. And I don't like to speak negatively of one, but just this is the one that's fresh on my mind. Is Stick supposed to be funny?

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, no, can't be.

[Zach Lowe]

It's not. Because it's not funny.

[Joanna Robinson]

No, it's not.

[Zach Lowe]

Marc Marin's on it. Owen Wilson's on it. Like, I just. It was like, supposed to be Ted Lasso for golf. Ted Lasso, at least season one was, like, riotously funny. I just, It's. I haven't laughed one time.

[Joanna Robinson]

The app, the Apple offerings are real hit and miss these days. And I think especially how they qualify things, drama versus comedy is really. Because I wouldn't even call shrinking a classic comedy at all either. You know what I mean? That has a lot of emotionality and baggage to it. So.

[Zach Lowe]

It does. But it has supporting characters who are there almost entirely. Like, every line that comes out of Ted McGinley's mouth is just a plus comedy. Like every single Jessica Williams. 90% of what she's saying is just bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. Machine gun comedy. Okay, give me a third one.

[Joanna Robinson]

All right, your third one. I'm going to go with Better Things. This is six seasons, but they're short seasons.

[Zach Lowe]

Never heard, literally never heard of it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Fx, on Hulu or Disney. You can also watch it. Pamela Adlin, who I love, raising three kids, one of whom is recent Oscar winner Mikey Madison. And so it's about a single mom, three kids in Los Angeles, and sort of her really. I know you mentioned that dry comedy is not really your wife's thing, but it's a nice blend of sarcasm and actual genuine emotional connection. And I think that idea of it's not a family sitcom at all, by any, by any means, but it has the bones of a family sitcom and then this really sort of dry perspective on top of it that I think makes it a really good combination. So, okay, she's really funny. Pamela Adlon. Really, really good. Better Things.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay, I see created by Louis CK on the Wikipedia.

[Joanna Robinson]

He's off after season one because that. It launched before everyone knew things about Louis CK and then he sort of departed the show after season one. So.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay, yeah. Follow up question that I really should ask you. That just popped into my head right now. There's one comedy long running, I believe, still running, that is seems to be universally beloved by a fervent, fervent fan base that I've never even dabbled in because my assumption was it was going to be too almost nasty. And I don't mean that in a bad way, but, like nasty for my wife.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, sure.

[Zach Lowe]

It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia. Should we give it a shot?

[Joanna Robinson]

I. I can't handle It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia. Really, I don't like. I mean, I, you know, I've seen clips that are really fun. There are bits that really funny, and I love all of those guys and, and, and everyone.

[Zach Lowe]

I love Philadelphia. I love the city of Philadelphia.

[Joanna Robinson]

Everyone involved in that show I really, really like. I can't handle people being that mean to each other. And that makes me sound so soft. But there's a lot of, A lot of meanness I can handle if at the end of the day, there's sort of like a baseline camaraderie that goes with it. There's just something about It's Always Sunny that I can't, I can't hang with.

[Zach Lowe]

So they're, they're like legit. They're like legit mean to each other. It's not like ribbing among friends kind of Mean to each other.

[Joanna Robinson]

I wouldn't say, I wouldn't say. Another recommendation that I have is. Fits nicely into that mean to each other. Yet there is a core love going on there which is something called you'd're the worst. Which is also. Yeah, that one is. I would pay your pair the recommendation of youf're the worst with a show called Crashing, which is Phoebe Weller Bridges show that she did before Fleabag. And both of them are about sort of messy 20 somethings, early 30 somethings. And I don't know, I, I enjoy watching those shows even though I'm not remotely in my messy 20s or 30s anymore because I get the sense of I don't have to deal with that anymore. So it's fun to watch from a distance the messiness that was, you know, your early adult fumblings. But both you're the worst in Crashing. Crashing's only one season, six episodes. It has Phoebe Waller Bridge and, and Johnny Bailey, who everyone loves right now. One of his first shows that he ever did.

[Zach Lowe]

Should I know who that is?

[Joanna Robinson]

He's in the new Jurassic World movie. He was in Wicked. He's on Bridgerton. He's sort of a. None of not for you. None of this is for you.

[Zach Lowe]

They're just. I just, they haven't. I know what all of those things are.

[Joanna Robinson]

You're not a big Bridgerton guy. You're not a huge.

[Zach Lowe]

Richardson's the one where they're always going to balls and there's a lot of sex and there was like the guy that became a sensation for a minute French guy, I think. Right?

[Joanna Robinson]

Reggae Jean Page. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But Crashing and you're the worst are both, I think. And you're the worst especially because it has just a lot of really fun recurring best that remind me of older sitcoms where it's just sort of like you. You have the brunch episode that will come back to season and season. And so I really, really love how mean it gets away with while being soft hearted at its center. So you don't feel like you're watching something that's too sappy, but you're watching something that doesn't make you feel uncomfortable with how cruel people are with each other. And I think it rides that line perfectly.

[Zach Lowe]

I need, I need a little edge. I need a little, I need a little edge to my humor.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. Have you tried anything recently that you're like, this is way too soft. I don't, I can't handle how sweet this is.

[Zach Lowe]

I don't think so. Because I. It would just be like disqual. What's an example? Because I just would disqualify it on. On its face.

[Sean Fennessey]

I.

[Joanna Robinson]

Sometimes I hear people say that about Schitt's Creek. A lot of people thought it was a little too sweet for them. I don't know if you gave that show a try.

[Zach Lowe]

We liked. I liked Schitt's Creek. We like Schitt's Creek. I. We watched it very late and we're warned that it starts slowly and you're not going to think it's funny. I thought it was funny right from the beginning. I can see what people are. Lessons are learned. Wealth is not everything. People change and love each other and make very mature decisions. I get that. I guess I just thought Catherine o' Hara was just so wildly outrageous and I'm forgetting her name. Who plays the sister?

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, Alexis.

[Zach Lowe]

Yes. She's fantastic. Annie something I feel like is her name Murphy?

[Joanna Robinson]

Annie Murphy. That's right.

[Zach Lowe]

She is. You come across these people on. On shows like this that make you appreciate how many uber talented folks are like in the underbelly of entertainment that will never ever make it in any. Not make it but will just never come on your consciousness in any big way. Because I had never seen her before in anything. She was just popped off the screen as so funny, so talented and just the single word, David. She said in 5,000 different ways and it was hilarious every single time. And now she's famous and it's like how many people like that are there that just never get the right break, never get the right role. They're just everywhere. Every show you watch like who's that guy? That guy is amazing. Why is he not famous?

[Joanna Robinson]

And when you. When you hear her tell the story of her audition and then she ends it with. And then he changed my. And then you know, Dan changed my life. Like that's. That's true. And if he had picked another person, we still might not have heard of Annie Murphy. She's Canadian. We might. She might never have broken through over here. So.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, I. I get what people think. It's too sweet. It's. It can. It verges on like moralizing a little bit toward the end. But I. I never minded. I just. Again the like the quippy one liners. I just. That's what I like.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay. Well I really think you're the worst especially is something that you. That you might really enjoy that of kind case. So those are my recommendations. I think I smuggled in. Yeah, that's. That's Five. I have some. Some honorable mentions if you want to hear any.

[Zach Lowe]

So I have your list that you texted me, and I just want to say I appreciate that you put Better Call Saul. It's so optimistic of what my life could handle. I love break Breaking Bad. I did solo.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

Before I. Before we had a family, before we had a kid. And now I just. It's. I just can't. I can't do a long thing solo anymore. I just don't have time. So. Better Call Saul. I'm never going to watch. I'm sorry.

[Joanna Robinson]

The first. The first couple seasons of that show really aren't violent at all, but then I can't promise that of the last couple seasons, so I. I felt that was fair for you to say. No, thank you.

[Zach Lowe]

You recommended Catastrophe, which we watched years and years ago and really liked. You recommended a show called Colin from Accounts, where I was once on, like, it must have been an overnight flight somewhere and just so desperate for any entertainment. And we were within, like the 90 minutes till landing window where you're not gonna start. It was like, what the hell is this thing? Calling from Accounts. It was cute. I saw like two episodes of it. I was like, not out on it. Maybe I should go try to get back in.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think that show is a real underrated hit for me, and I don't think it's too sweet, but I think your wife might enjoy it. Absolutely.

[Zach Lowe]

Any other honorable mentions that you really want to highlight that are just. You just have a sweet spot for them?

[Joanna Robinson]

I think Slings and Arrows is one that I want to stump for just while we're on the let's Honor Canada beat and say. Slings and Arrows is set at a Shakespeare company in Canada. It's only three seasons, and it's about a troupe of actors. The. The head of. Of programming dies at the beginning of season one. Not violently, and haunts the theater. And so it's just this, like, really fun, funny, theater based, warm, but sharp, really smart comedy that nobody ever talks about that I think is really, really good. Sarah, a young Sarah Pauley, a young Rachel McAdams before she hit in America.

[Zach Lowe]

There's just like a bunch of this is. This is. This is like 20 years old.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, it's like early, early aughts. And so it's. It's a lot of really fun emergent Canadian talent inside of it. So I really love that show.

[Zach Lowe]

You also have Pushing Daisies on here. Why have I heard of Pushing Daisies? Was it a critical darling at some.

[Joanna Robinson]

Point, your guy Lee Pace. That's sort of why I put it on there. But then you said your wife doesn't like sci fi fantasy. But the idea. The idea of Pushing Daisies is it's a very sweet, poppy show. Murder mysteries. Kristin Chenoweth is here, Anna Friel is here. And Lee Pace has this ability to. The first time he touches someone, it brings them back to life. And then the next time he touches them, they die. And he has this ability to. If someone has died recently, he can bring them back to life, ask them questions, and try to solve the murder. And inside of that, there's a love story. It's very odd. It's from Bryan Fuller, who did Hannibal, a much darker show. Dead Like Me, a darker show. But Pushing Daisies is sort of macabre but really fun. And Lee pace is just 10 out of 10, great in it.

[Zach Lowe]

So, I mean, he was already famous for Halt and Catch before Halt and Catch Fire had already started to become famous. I had never seen him before before Alton Catch Fire and. Yeah, now I'm just a fan for life. I'm also a fan of yours for life, Joanna Robinson. There are so many peloton rides that you and Rob Mahoney got me through dissecting. I mean, I hope people appreciate the work that you guys do. Like, people like, I'm just sitting here riffing on, like, shows that I watch an episode of and I never. Then weeks go by, I'll start finishing another season of it. You're like, you're watching these episodes multiple times, taking note. Like, this is. It doesn't sound like work to people because it's their entertainment. But that's similar to basketball.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, it's how you watch basketball.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, it's work and like, to notice the. You guys notice details in every episode, and then you're recalling specific bits of dialogue from five episodes ago that this thing is a callback to. I'm like, I can't even watch the show now without you. It's essential. So this is like, a real thrill for me. I can't wait to listen to you more.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, my God. Thank you so much. Is a thrill for me. I'm so excited that you're in my network that you're my coworker as a thrill to me. Thanks, Zach.

[Zach Lowe]

All right. Go back to your actual job instead of recommending TV shows to a blank slate. Thank you, Joanna Robinson. I'll see you soon.

[Joanna Robinson]

See you soon. Bye.

[Zach Lowe]

All right, let's do a little newsy interlude here, because sometimes the news cycle just feeds you something just that's irresistible. And it happens to be right when I'm about to go on vacation. And it happens to be about Luka Doncic, who is eligible to sign an extension with the Lakers in three days when I will be on vacation somewhere actually close to Luka's homeland in Slovenia. I think Lakers fans should probably be optimistic that something will get done with Luka in the summer, maybe right away, who knows. But the predictable news item in question was in we all saw the Men's Health story with Luka where he looked like a completely different person in shape, cut, jawline, all that. We already talked about it on this podcast and I was just waiting, waiting for the follow up. And I knew exactly how it was going to be worded. And the athletic and a story about Luca and a story about the story in Men's Health really delivered. Here's the line I want to read from that story. It's a good story. This, the body, the publicity, the determined look in his eyes, the sweat reflecting the spotlights. It's all a part of a bigger plan. That plan, according to Summer Alan Doncic was going to be fulfilled no matter what happened in his pro career. And that's what I was waiting for. The, the, the idea from Lucas camp that this was coming no matter what. And it's just this perfect twist of the knife to the Mavs. Like you could have, you could have kept him and had the same experience happen to him. The same getting in shape thing had nothing to do with the trade. It was coming anyway. It makes the Mavs look bad. It makes Luka look good. There's probably some truth to it because you know, as I've said before last earlier this week, that leg injury was really, that could have been the wake up call on its own, separate from the trade. That was the really the first season of Lucas career that was derailed due to an injury that was probably in part related to his conditioning. And so maybe the wake up call happens if he stays in Dallas. That said, I'm sure the trade and the subsequent sort of leaking bad stuff about Luca and his conditioning and his habits, I'm sure that didn't exactly hurt his motivational levels to get in shape. And I think in terms of like the reaction to that Men's health story, I think I was guilty of it and a lot of us were of missing like the most important part of the story in between the sort of chortling about Luka finally getting in great, great shape. I mean, he's always been in good shape. He can't be an NBA player at that level and not be in very good shape. And chortling about the Mavericks and who's who should be angry or should the Mavs be mad? Should Mavs fans be mad? Should Lakers fans be happy? All this we missed. The most important part. If this lasts, and we've seen periods of Luka getting in shape and then getting back into less good shape, I don't think we've ever seen him look like this. If this lasts. The big story is the Lakers have a top three NBA player in the kind of condition he's never been in in his career. Like, that's the story. And then that made me think of LeBron James. And it made me think, shouldn't this, like, really excite LeBron James playing with that version of Luka Doncic, a guy who was far and away the best player on a team that made the conference finals two years ago in the better conference, which just gets better and better every year, and they made the finals a season and a half ago, whatever it was, like very recently, the 2024 Finals. Shouldn't that excite LeBron? And that made me think of the statement that has really defined the NBA off season, the statement that Rich Paul put out when LeBron opted in to 52.6 million, opted in when he could have been a free agent and sign anywhere he wanted for any amount of money that was available. And that statement, I wanted to reread it because it's been. It's been so parsed and it's been a while now. LeBron wants to compete for a championship. Paul said he knows the Lakers are building for the future. I want to stop there. We'll keep going. He understands that. But he values a realistic chance of winning it all. He understands that, but he values a realistic chance of winning it all. We're very appreciative of the partnership that we've had for eight years with Jeanie Buss and Rob Pelinka and consider the Lakers as a critical part of his career. We understand the difficulty in winning now while preparing for the future. We do not want to evaluate what's best for LeBron at this stage. We do. Sorry, want to evaluate what's best for LeBron at this stage in his life and his career. He wants to make every season he has left count. And the Lakers understand that. Blah, blah, blah. It sounds like he's talking about, like, a team that is going tanking around him when they have this player, Luka Doncic, who Looks like this. And by the way, I like I had a, I was having a debate over dinner with some NBA people in summer league about even now, after watching the Thunder win the championship, even now after watching Luka get injured and this is before the men's health story and all that, would you take Luka over sga? And like a year ago I would have taken Luka. Now I don't think that's like an open and shut case despite everything that SGA just did. That's how good Luka is. That's how important his size is. And I read that statement, I'm like, LeBron's talking about the Lakers like they're the Hornets and him like they're the Wizards in him and they have Luca and it just something, something is strange. So then you go through the exercise of like, well it reminded me by the way of this book I'm reading by your own Weitzman Hollywood ending. You can pre order it now. It reminded me in the section I read last night about in the off season or during the season of 2022, I think when LeBron name checked the Rams GM who had said them picks and talked up the Cavs front office and all of this sort of like vague sending signals of unhappiness with the administration. And it made me think then and it makes me think now. What else did you want him to do? Like if you're unhappy and I'm not going to posit that LeBron is unhappy, I don't know if he's unhappy anymore. That statement certainly evinces a level of unhappiness. But like what did you want the Lakers to do this summer? They have one first round pick to trade thanks in part to the Russell Westbrook deal, which they're still digging and digging and digging and digging out of. And a deal that by the way this book makes clear and the reporting at the time made clear LeBron was a fan of and seems to have been according to this book and reporting at the time involved in sort of like he was in the know about that deal and the alternate buddy heel deal. So you have one first round pick, a bunch of swaps. What are you getting for that? What's the name out there that you want if you want the Lakers to go all in win now mode alongside Luca and you, what's the, what's the big name you want you got, by the way, the Lakers, I think a good offseason. DeAndre Ayton, Marcus Smart, Jake Laravia, some other stuff I think they've rounded out their team pretty well. If you put Austin Reeves and one first round pick and some swaps on the table, find me the name you're going to get. I mean, there was not a lot of big name guys that changed teams this year. You could get something. Could you get. Could you try to get Jaren Jackson Jr. Maybe, I don't know. I mean, Austin Reeves is about to be an unrestricted free agent who's going to get a big raise and it's one first round pick because you owe one to Utah for dumping Russ and you owe one to Dallas for Luka. So, like, I don't know what the move is that he wants. So is that what LeBron might be unhappy about? Maybe. Is he unhappy that they traded Anthony Davis, his buddy, and his fellow Clutch client, Champion costar? I don't really think so. I mean, There was an ESPN story a couple weeks ago about LeBron in this situation in which the reporting was that they understood that when Luka falls into your lap, you got to take them. And if the price is A.D. the price is A.D. i don't even think clutch was mad about A.D. going to Dallas. A.D. and Nico Harrison have been close for a long time. I think that was sort of on their long term radar anyway, from what I had heard. So I don't think that. I don't think that's what it was. Is it the immediate attempt to get a rim running center in Mark Williams right after the Luka trade to appease Luka? Did that make it seem like, well, man, we've been agitating. AD doesn't want to play center, you know, and they get this new guy in and immediately they're building the team in his image and then the deal gets rescinded. Now they have eight and etc. I mean, okay, but like, in what world was this not going to be about Luka doncic When the 26 year old first team all NBA player falls into your lap? Of course everything now becomes about Luka Doncic. That's just the reality of it. And why does it have to be about one or the other? Why can't. And I'm not saying anyone thinks this. I'm just thinking out loud. I'm not saying LeBron is still mad about any of this, if he ever was. But I'm just like, you hear this over and over again. Well, it's about Luca now. And is LeBron. LeBron's never been. LeBron has never been on a team where he was not the centerpiece of the team for now and for later. And now he's not. Now Luka is. Well, why does it have to be one or the other? Why can't it be both? This is exactly the kind of player LeBron should want at the end of his career, a guy who can share ball handling duties with him. Now, does Luka have to offload a little bit more of that stuff than he has in the past, even with Kyrie? Maybe. But it's not like we haven't seen Luka with another ball dominant player having great success. LeBron should, at age 40, 41, want to give up even more of the ball handling duty than he already has to Austin Reaves. He should want to be an opportunistic cutter, an opportunistic hit ahead transition player. Give me a post up against mismatches. I don't have to dominate the ball all the time. I can save what little energy I have left for some defensive possessions and some rebounding. He should absolutely want that. It's a great, it's a great fit for him and it could be about both. And by the way, in the wake of the Men's Health article, they now have tied with Minnesota and the Clippers. Actually, no. Just tie with Minnesota ahead of the Clippers. The fourth best odds to win the West. That doesn't sound great, but it's, it's still real. Like, the west is really good. And that's my point about what was the move, what was the move that could have gotten them to the Oklahoma City, Houston, Denver stratosphere? The way the Rockets and the Nuggets nailed the offseason. That's just a tough group to crack it. It's a tough group to crack when you're digging out from one bad trade that sent your, your franchise teetering in all different directions. That's the rush trade and two super duper max contracts. It's just hard. You don't like. They're so lucky. Not lucky. They're so smart and lucky to have gotten Austin Reaves a third grade player at a cheap price, both when they got him and now, you know, like, they're a really good team at the Western Conference. They had a good off season. They're four favorites. I mean, like this, this should be a great situation. Is he, is he not psyched that the Lakers don't appear to have had extension talks with him? Well, his agent, Rich Paul, has publicly denied that and said we haven't even asked for an extension. According to Dave McMenamin at ESPN. Maybe it's just nothing. Maybe it's just sort of a, a realization that this sort of Lakers, LeBron, AD championship contender thing had and now has run its course and he does. And maybe LeBron doesn't think he can win big in LA anymore that like realistically contend. But again, what was the move and where are you going to go? Dallas was the hot name right away when that statement came out. Hotter than Cleveland. Okay, like if you get to Dallas and in a year Kyrie is fully healthy and AD's there, Cooper flags there. Like that's exciting. That's exciting. It's undeniably exciting. It's still in the west and you still have those behemoths to go through. And maybe in a year when Kyrie is fully healthy again, and I'm not saying Kyrie is going to be out for this whole season, I don't know, I'm just saying fully healthy, maybe something bad happens in Houston. Maybe Denver loses a couple more bench players. Maybe the west opens up a little bit before the Wembanyama storm erupts. Really? But like, you know, it's still the West. Cleveland? No. You're telling me Cleveland? That's interesting. You move east into that conference, into the jv. That's interesting. But like, how you getting there? There's still been no trade buzz. There's certainly been no buyout buzz. The Lakers just got sold at a 10 billion dollar valuation to mark Walter. You think his first move wants to be we're gonna buy out LeBron, this guy who sells a gazillion tickets and helps our ticket prices go up and all that. I don't see that's that happening. So LeBron Luca, just, you know, let's make it work. Like this is a really fun, exciting team. Is it as good as Oklahoma City? No. Denver? No. Houston? Probably not. So what? Stay. Maybe stay healthy. Maybe LeBron could take it a little easier in the regular season, get to the playoffs, maybe have a puncher's chance to do some damage. That's fun. There's honor in that. Speaking of honor in that, that's been my catchphrase for the warriors in the twilight of Steph Curry's career. Real quickly, ESPN Sham Strania and Anthony Slater reported yesterday as I'm taping this Thursday, that the Kaminga negotiations remain at a stalemate. That the warriors are offering what is essentially a one plus one with a team option at about 22 and a half million dollars a year. And Kaminga is not interested in seeding that level of control. Signing what could just be a one year deal that the warriors would sort of kind of view as a trade piece more than anything else, could be a while. It's messy. It's messy. Is it? Its. I, I think toxic is actually not an ex, too much of an exaggeration for how bad it is between Kaminga and the warriors at this point. And I've said already that despite the record with Butler and Curry being so good, I, I just don't see a realistic roadmap for them to like make the finals again in it. Barring some crazy unforeseen transaction down the line in the Steph era. The west is just too good and they're too dependent on aging players. And then, you know, the two timelines thing more or less didn't materialize. And that's why I've said before, the Kaminga transaction, whatever form it takes, whether it's a sign and trade, now a sign and delayed, like a delayed sign and trade or something like that, is one of the two or three most important pending transactions in the NBA. Because if there's any hope of the warriors salvaging not only the end of the Curry era, but salvaging the crumbs of what was supposed to be the two timelines plan, it lies in either Kaminga popping. And that just doesn't seem likely to happen with the words that that bridge is on fire, if not burned out completely. Kaminga turning into trade assets that really boost the present and or future of the team. The Kings are involved, the Suns are involved. The warriors don't like those assets. The warriors shouldn't really love those assets. They're not changing the warriors lives, whatever they are. And the sad part is it might already be too far gone. Like Kaminga just hasn't had a steady enough role with the Warriors. His trade value just isn't maybe as high as it needs to be for the warriors to get what they need to get for him. And I still think the qualifying offer is a nightmare option for both teams. It might be more of a nightmare option for the warriors even than it is for Kaminga because they just cannot afford to have him for a year at 7 million or whatever it is and just have him walk. So restrictive free agency stinks. It stinks for Josh Giddy, it stinks for Cam Thomas, and it stinks for Jonathan Kaminga, and it stinks for another restricted free agent whose name I'm blanking out on but C LA V. I'm going on vacation. And with that we're gonna turn to Mets Corner, I think with Sean Fennesee. Let's go. Matt's corner. Let's go. Sean Fennesue. We made a couple of trades for some relief pitchers. I don't know who we gave up. I got no idea what's going on. I know we need some freaking relief pitchers because our starters can't pitch more than five innings unless you. David Peterson is pitching. Sean Fennese, thanks for joining us on Mets Corner. How you feeling about the team?

[Sean Fennessey]

Happy to be here. What a perilous time to be recording. It's 9:03am Pacific. We've got a few more hours left in the trade deadline. Will anything happen while we are talking to make great podcasting? I don't know. You've had this so many times before in the NBA.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, it happens. And the difference now is I don't really care if it happens or not. I'm not stressed about it. I won't know anything about what's going on. The Mets have already made two big trades. I don't know how many big moves they have left in them. But I need you to tell me about Tyler Rogers, who I just. We just played the Giants, so I saw him come in and my daughter. I was very happy to show my daughter a true sidewinder and how strange it looks. And then they come off the top rope for this guy Ryan Helsey, who apparently is a closer who throws 99. We're just loading up on. On bullpen guys, which is great because, you know, we just optioned Brazzabam, which kind of surprised me down to aaa. And our bullpen's been leaking oil.

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, yeah, this is the number one need that they've had. The Stearns Regime with the Mets has been fairly leak proof and this is the first year where for roughly a month we've been hearing from reporters this team desperately needs to add bullpen arms. They desperately need to add arms. Here are some arms they might get. Turns out Tyler Rogers and Ryan Helsley were never mentioned really as potential names. So I guess in that way Stearns regime is still somewhat leak proof, but two huge additions. You know, we're doing this thing on my movie podcast, the big picture called 25 for 25, where we're counting down our favorite 25 movies of the century. And we just did an episode about Moneyball and you'll remember in Moneyball, one of the key contributors to that Oakland A's team that is featured in the movie. Chad Bradford.

[Zach Lowe]

Oh, I thought you were gonna say Ring Cohen when he does the slow balling of the fist.

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, trade deadline obviously is a critical part of that whole movie and guys getting dealt is fascinating, but he picks up Ring Cohen. But he signs Chad Bradford in the offseason, who's a sidewinder, and Tyler Rodgers is kind of the spiritual successor. And he's nasty. He doesn't get a lot of swing and misses, but he pretty consistently gets out. So I think he's got a 1.8 ERA this season and has been really effective. He is 34 years old and a free agent to be. So who'd they give up? You know anything about the dudes they gave up Tidwell.

[Zach Lowe]

I know because he's been on the big leagues. But everyone is concerned about this Gilbert guy, who apparently was a hotshot prospect, is not quite panned out. He's already 25, but that's the one that people, the Mets freaks were like, oh, man, we got fleece. We gave up too much. We overpaid. Tell me, tell me if we really did get fleeced.

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, he's a name we know because we got him in when we traded Justin Verlander in 2023 when the season fell apart and we thought we were going to be contenders that year and we were a little over our skis and so the regime decided to disassemble that team. They traded Max Scherzer. They traded Justin Verlander, and Scherzer was.

[Zach Lowe]

On the Mets for years.

[Sean Fennessey]

For like three years. Yeah, he was one of the first big true free agents.

[Zach Lowe]

I do remember this. A gazillion dollars a year.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes, he made. He got a huge contract and he was kind of out of gas coming off of a season where he had pitched for the Dodgers. Anyhow, they traded both of those guys. When they traded Verlander, they paid down his salary or a bulk of his salary to go back to the Houston Astros. But they got too high in outfield prospects, one of which was Drew Gilbert. This is three years ago. He was 22. He seemed like he was going to be a really good corner outfielder. He's really struggled in Double A and AAA since he came to the Mets. However, in the last roughly six weeks, he's been abusing the ball and looks more like a significant player. Scouts say he's basically a fourth outfielder. So he's just a name we know very well.

[Zach Lowe]

But I trust. I trust the scouts. Then I'm going to go with the scouts. I'm going to say that they're right and that's good.

[Sean Fennessey]

I hope so. Obviously, we also gave up Tidwell, who was a second round pitching prospect some years ago and has been just fine. He I think charts out to be a long term long reliever. And Jose Bhutto, who's a reliever, who I like, who was on the roster and was pitching with some consistency but is a flawed reliever. And it didn't ever seem like David Stearns believed in him. He was. He came up as a starter too and they transitioned him to a reliever. So I don't think there was a lot of faith in those guys. And so on paper it looks like a lot. If Tyler Rogers is as good as he has been for the last 50 games with the Giants huge pickup.

[Zach Lowe]

Buto again, I'm. People need to remember I'm not watching this with the eyes that I watch the NBA with. I just. It felt like every time I saw him come in a game it was one of those all right, we're down 7 1. Can you eat some innings for us and not like we're up to one in the seventh. We trust you to get these three critical outs.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think that's pretty much right. I think he is a two to three inning guy who's coming in games where you're trying to manage a situation in which you're losing. And that's really all they imagined him as. He was never going to be a critical part. Actually last season in the playoffs it was clear that Carlos Mendoza didn't really trust him and he didn't pitch very often in the playoffs at all. And so I think that tells you also what you need to know about how they thought about him.

[Zach Lowe]

I mean, I don't know anything about these prospects. Everything you're saying makes me happy. The few prospect names I do know are the star pitcher prospects. And like those are the ones I just an ace starting pitcher. Whatever percent chance any of those guys have of turning into that is the thing I hold dearest to Ryan Helsley. What do we give up for him? He sounds. He. I looked up his stats. Obviously he's also a free agent, but he, he looks like. I mean he's been a closer. So this is the formula is can we lock down the last three innings of the game? Obviously. And this guy feels like I people are. His whiff rate with his slider I'm learning is like 46%. That's apparently very high. That's exc.

[Sean Fennessey]

He throws absolute gas. You should absolutely go look at his numbers against the Philadelphia Phillies lineup in their career because we should have Led.

[Zach Lowe]

This that it's just an arms race between the Phillies and the Mets. I mean, that's a literal arms race.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. After they picked up Durin from the Twins, obviously, I think that incentivized Stearns to get even more aggressive and make this deal yesterday. And they gave up three prospects. But Helsley is, he just has nasty stuff. He's having, I would say, a fine year. Not an elite year in terms of his track record, but he had 50 saves last year. He, he is a literal top seven, top eight closer in the game. So slotting him into the eighth inning, it's pretty darn exciting. Behind Edwin Diaz, you put Rogers there, you put Reed Garrett there and then you're. Is this the best bullpen in baseball? It's certainly close and they may not even be done. So that's really exciting. We didn't even mention Gregory Soto, who they picked up last week from the Baltimore Orioles. Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

Immediately blew a game. Thanks. Gregory Soto.

[Sean Fennessey]

That wasn't ideal. I think that was more of a brain where he made an error in that inning. But nevertheless that he, he is still at least a usable arm to pitch in the fifth and sixth inning for this team. So they're pretty loaded right now. And the guys they gave up to pick up Helsley, you know, Jesus Baez is like a fringe top 10 prospect for them and he's only 20 and he might end up being a really good ballplayer, but he hasn't really hit in the minors at all. And then Nate Doan was a third round pick last year and a guy named Frank Ellis Salt, who I'm not going to pretend I've ever heard of, he's not really a ranked prospect in their system. So it weirdly seems like a lighter load for Helsley than it does for Rodgers. But like Rodgers, he's a free agent at the end of the year. Edwin Diaz has an opt out. Ryan Stanek is a free agent at the end of the year. Like a lot of these guys are all. This is an all in moment is what I'm saying. For the first time. It's seemingly in forever and we'll be able to know in six hours when the deadline is up. But this feels like they're going all in and there's a big reason for that. And I got to tell you about this because you'll understand this with some NBA context. One, we talked about the ages of the core of the team and that these guys need to win now. Two, there's probably going to be a lockout in 2027. And Steve Cohen, I think is probably thinking that there could be, if not a salary cap, some more dramatic measures that are instituted that disallow him from spending as much money as he wants. And they know that they got to make this happen in the next two years, so why not try now?

[Zach Lowe]

Just when I get back into baseball, we're looking at a work stoppage. I mean I saw the story that Jeff Passon put out about Bryce Harper cursing out Manfred in the locker room, which I, which I thought was kind of cool.

[Sean Fennessey]

It was great. It was hilarious.

[Zach Lowe]

I mean it takes some balls to go up to the commissioner and curse at his face to get the fuck out of our clubhouse. If you want to talk about a salary cap, all in. I mean again, we got six more hours. We're taping this now only because I'm, I'm literally leaving during the trade deadline. So whatever happens, happens. I can tell you I was driving around today doing a couple last minute errands and I had talk radio on. There was a lot of Alcantara talk about the hosts on ESPN radio, really want the Mets to go get a top line starter and he's the best guy available, etc. Etc. Almost no talk about another bat. And I don't know, I mean they talked about like this, this platoon in center field, how Taylor doesn't hit at all and Vientos and Mauricio. But it has been interesting, I guess minus the last couple of games against the Padres that Mauricio and Vientos have kind of been surging right up until the trade deadline. And you always don't know what to do with these things where like a guy who might be one of the young guys you trade has a two week hot streak exactly the right. The time that would make you like think again about doing it. So like I understand there's like the Mauricio, Vientos at third, Taylor McNeil at center. How does Marte fit in as a Dharma? How? Like is it starting pitcher? Is it bat? Like, what do you, what would you do? Like what do they need the most?

[Sean Fennessey]

I mean I think they need both. And if you're already starting to trade fringe top 10 prospects, as long as you're protecting those top five guys, which are the three pitching prospects you mentioned and Carson Benj and Jet Williams. If you can keep dealing around those five prospects, I think they need a center fielder who can hit and I would. You know, I don't think there is anybody Beyond Luis Robert Jr. And yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

Tell me, tell me about him. Because I looked up his stats and I'm like, this guy had one random good offensive year. Is he good? Why is everyone talking about him?

[Sean Fennessey]

He obviously has the tools. He hit 38 home runs two seasons ago. Everyone thought he was going to be a legit MVP candidate and he just completely came back to earth. He's been in a bad situation. The White Sox are one of the worst franchises in baseball. There's a suggestion that he's not motivated, which is not something you want to hear. They've. The Mets being so tied to him for the last three weeks makes me think there's no chance they're going to trade for him because they're not usually so revealing about their intentions. But I strongly feel they need a bat and it doesn't seem like they're going to try to go get one aggressively. But Even during that seven game winning streak, Zach, they hit.205 with runners in scoring position. They're.

[Zach Lowe]

I just can't watch it anymore.

[Sean Fennessey]

They're 28th out of 30 teams with runners and scoring positions.

[Zach Lowe]

Bases loaded, no outs. I'm like conditioned myself. So here comes a double play or a strikeout and then a double play.

[Sean Fennessey]

Some of it is luck and chance and baseball is very strange with these kinds of things. But there's I think only one other team in the bottom 10 in that statistic that that has a winning record. So it is some kind of indicator of long term success and they just can't fucking hit and that's in those situations. So I think they actually need basically like a full time DH circumstance where they signed Winker, they have Marte who can't really play in the field and they're trying to figure out this balance between Vientos, Mauricio and Beatty. And it's just kind of an odd fit with all of these guys. I would love to see a guy who can basically get 400 at bats in a season in that slot and they don't really have it right now, unfortunately. As far as starting pitcher goes, yeah, Sandy Alcantra would be great. He's coming off major surgery. He's been really bad this season. His last two starts have been darn good. He looks like the old Sandy Alcantra. He's a Cy Young winner. He would be sick. And he's also under team control for another two years.

[Zach Lowe]

I'm looking at this Robert Jr guy's stats again. All Star finished 12th in MVP voting. He didn't play a lot like his first three. Was that because he was young or injured. I mean he's only got two years where he's hit 100 games and he'll hit it again this year. That's why I'm looking at his home runs like 11, 13, 12, 38, 14, 11. But part of that is just, is just games played.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, I mean, I think he was just a slightly slower developing prospect. I'm not totally familiar with his injury history, so I can't pretend to know everything about why he didn't play as much. But he's become more of an everyday player in the last three or four years and that 38 home run season now looks like an anomaly. But at the time, I mean that was a five win season that he had as a center fielder. Five win center fielders who hit over 30 home runs are pretty rare in baseball right now. So if they could revive that, he's incredibly valuable. But he also has a $20 million player option next year, which would make him an incredibly expensive player on a team. And if he doesn't live up to the expectations, that kind of hamstrings you going into the off season. So there's a lot of. To me, I would love for them to not be running Tyrone Taylor out there for 60% of the games. As much as I enjoy watching him and think he's actually quite a clutch player, his OPS is like 578. I mean it's, it's pretty abysmal. He's not an everyday player. So I hope they do something. If they don't, I think we're going to be kind of grinding our way through 60 games. Watching them strike out three times in a row with a runner on third base and none out. And that pains me.

[Zach Lowe]

So I'm glad that you just said $20 million player option because look, I guess I'm just going to have to learn a whole other color coding system on spot track other than the NBA. The NBA one, obviously. I know like every color what every little thing means. Baseball, there's like oranges and yellows and Pre Arbs and Arb1 and Arb3 and I don't know what any of this shit means, but I see red $20 million, 20, 26, 2027. Next to Luis Robert Jr. You've telling me that's a player option and that that's a level that he would, we would expect him to opt into based on his level of play.

[Sean Fennessey]

The red is a club option. So it would be the Mets decision to pick that option up. Now they obviously could Let him walk. But if you're going to trade, I mean, I don't think they're going to trade Mark Vientos at this point, but if they traded Luis Angelicunha straight up for Luis Robert Jr. And it was kind of like a challenge trade where you see whether your free agent to be is potentially less valuable than a guy who's under club control for the next five years like Acuna is, that's kind of an interesting challenge to those two teams. And they're in completely different situations. The White Sox are trying to build long term. The Mets are trying to win now. But if Luis Robert Jr. Comes here and hits 175 for 50 games and sucks in the playoffs, I don't know if you're going to want to pick up that $20 million option.

[Zach Lowe]

Is, is Luis Angelicuna, is he like just Ray or Dona's, but second base, like, can he hit at all?

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, he's got this incredible pedigree because his brother Ronald is one of the five best players in the sport.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

And so I think we've kind of deluded ourselves into thinking he's something more than a utility infielder, but he's ultimately a speedster. Utility infielder, I think. I don't think he's going to hit much in the majors, but he's a useful player to have on a contending team because you know, you now know about the quote unquote Manfred man, the ghost runner on second base in extra innings. You love to pinch run with a guy like Acuna in an extra inning game, you love to have a guy like that on the base paths, just sitting on the bench, ready to go. Plus he can play three positions in the infield, so I don't know, I think he could be valuable as a 25th man on the roster, but he's not somebody I'm emotionally connected to. He's not really ultimately a big part of their long term plans.

[Zach Lowe]

Juan Soto got injured a couple games ago, fouled the ball off his shin.

[Sean Fennessey]

He made me aware of this via text. I was not watching the game.

[Zach Lowe]

That's fine. It doesn't matter.

[Sean Fennessey]

It was painful. No, it was painful. When I got that text from you.

[Zach Lowe]

It looked painful for him. I mean, he was with the trainer for five minutes and then he finishes that bat and came out of the game. It sounds like it's not serious day to day, not on the injured list, whatever. I bring it up only because all the stuff about the pitching and the relievers, I mean, none of this. This is all moot if the best guys don't hit. And I'm really starting to worry about Lindor because he had that hellish over 31, and then he had two good games, and everyone was, like, throwing a party that the slump was over. And he's over since then. A lot of, like, ton. Does he always strike out this much? Tons of strikeouts. Struck out with the bases loaded the other day, and he had the toe thing that he missed. Like, a. Broke his. What is it? A pinky toe, I think broke a toe and, like, missed one game, like. And Soto is. Even Soto's slumps are so amplified by, like, walks and whatever that they're not painful. Alonzo is slumping. I don't really worry about that. But, like, if those three guys don't produce at elite levels, like, none of this other noise is gonna matter. And the Lindor stuff, this is like, I'm gonna just ballpark. 14 out of the last 16 games have been just, like, totally invisible. Offensive games. I'm getting worried, and I don't know enough to really how worried I should be. My Mariners fan friend in college was like, don't worry about Lindor. He's too good. Like, this won't last. I'm like, all right. I mean, it's like, if he strikes out with the bases loaded again, I guess I'll just shrug it off.

[Sean Fennessey]

We've seen this essentially every single year from him. It's just unusual for it to be happening in July. He usually has a long stretch where he doesn't hit every season. I'm a little concerned that the toe is bothering him more than we know. And he's the kind of guy who would never actually say that and just say, I need to be better. I need to be better if it is actually bothering him. You know, he made an error yesterday that was very uncommon for him. He's just been a little bit leakier than you'd like. And as. As he goes, they go. When he hits, they win. That's just the fact since he's joined the team, I think when he's had two hits or more, their winning percentage is crazy. And there was a reason why they bumped him up to hit leadoff last season. There's a reason why he stays in that one or two hole pretty much all the time. He is the straw that stirs the drink, you know, the same way Reggie Jackson was. He's the guy who gets them going. Pete has always been streaky, too. I am a little bit more concerned about Pete maybe than other people are because they need him to clear the bases. It's the whole design of the offense is that while Soto is a masher, he's basically an on base percentage guy. And so if he's not driving in runs, this whole conceit of the team where like five through nine in the lineup is a little dodgy. They can't win games if Pete isn't getting two RBIs a game roughly. And he was on pace for some crazy hack Wilson numbers in the first quarter of the season. Those two guys I read are hitting.200 since June 13, which is the lowest batting averages for everyday players in the sport. Lindor and Alonso. That's fucking scary, man. That's really bad. These are two of the 25 best players in the game and they've been awful for six weeks. Really scary.

[Zach Lowe]

Now I realize this is a snapshot at an adir for Lindor, but.311 on base percentage would be career low.741 OPS would be second lowest of his career. It's just like not, not to sound NBA definitive about it, but like that's just not good enough from what I understand about his role on the team. And five through nine, I mean that's what's been interesting if you want to be a glass half full guy. The bottom of the lineup carried them to like a bunch of those wins in their seven game wing streak. Alvarez looks like he might be a Mauricio has had a couple big home runs. Like still can't hit lefties I guess, but has hit a couple big home runs. Vientos hit a grand slam in a game they should have won in blue and it was robbed of another home run in that game by Tatis Jr. I already hate Fernando Tatis Jr. By the way. Probably everybody. I. Is he like a beloved character baseball player?

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, he's. He's an insane athlete and has crazy swagger, but if he's not on your team, he's a little hard to root for. You saw him steal that home run from Vientos. That was an insane, insane.

[Zach Lowe]

But I was. Is he for not like his dad is Fernando Tatis? That I remember.

[Sean Fennessey]

He is the same guy. Montreal Expo.

[Zach Lowe]

Is Fernando Tatis not the guy who hit two grand slams in one inning the same man? Is he the only one ever to do that?

[Sean Fennessey]

He's the only one. As far as I know.

[Zach Lowe]

He's the only one that is one of the coolest. I was trying to explain that to my daughter during the Padres game the other night about how insane that is, how unlikely that is. That's very cool.

[Sean Fennessey]

Good memory by you on the, on.

[Zach Lowe]

Tatis, but like, but the bottom of the lineup guys have, have done their job in the last couple of weeks.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, they've been better for sure. Mauricio is the most intoxicating for me because he just hit home runs off relievers that never give up home runs in that Giants game and in that Padres game. And so that's the sort of thing that you see and you're like, okay, so the raw talent is so profound with him and he still, because he lost a year to injury, is still basically so underdeveloped that the idea of him being that guy, that 30 home run rangy defender at third base, we talked about it like a month ago. That's been such a black hole for them over the years. I'd love to see that shake out, but he's not, he's not ready yet. So it's this real pickle with the timing of this team. Like all three of those guys. Viento is taking a step back, Beatty being inconsistent and Mauricio still developing. You know, I think they can have good two or three week stretches. I'm not expecting Mauricio to hit.400 for the rest of the year. I think that's pretty unlikely.

[Zach Lowe]

Speaking of home runs, they, you know, they do the photo snapshot after every home run, which is just delightful and I'm glad that they still do that. Why has like a skateboard or surfboard been added to the photos in the last couple of weeks? Is that a West coast road trip thing? Like, all of a sudden there's like a colorful. I think it's a skateboard, I don't know what. Or like a snowboard or so I don't know what it is.

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, they also added the flip flop. Did you see the flip flop? The chunkletta?

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, maybe. I may. I don't. Maybe I'm confusing it, but something has been added to the, to the photo spread.

[Sean Fennessey]

You know, they're just getting creative. They got that Steve Cohen budget for gags in the building and I don't know, it's like a very kind of mystical, superstitious kind of team where routines and traditions, which of course is very common in baseball, were a huge part of their success last year. And I'm sure you remember Grimace and all that omg and everything that they did, and they're trying to hold on to some of that stuff. It seems like a real good vibes space, but I Can't say I understand the surfboard thing too much other than just like cowabunga surfs up on the west coast. I don't know.

[Zach Lowe]

I like all of it. We've already talked about this, how if I were a baseball player I would be like, I remember watching, you know, I remember watching the. There was, there was. I mean I had the VHS tape of like the 1986 Mets retrospective thing and it was awesome. And they would like do hot foots in the dugout and stuff which probably unsafe and shouldn't have been done, but I would have been all about like pranks, bullpen rituals, trying to catch a home run in the bullpen. I would all be all about it. I love it.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, they had Roger McDowell on those teams and he was the all time prankster and I don't know if they have one of those guys specifically. I felt it was hard to watch Jose Iglesias in this Padres series and how special he was for the Mets last year. And even in that series, just doing a couple of things that just were really crafty and pissed me off when he wasn't on our team. So there is a little mojo missing, but they're still a fun team.

[Zach Lowe]

So 45 and 24 was the high water mark for the team.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay.

[Zach Lowe]

Since then, and maybe this is just the fandom and me returning, it seems like it's alternated between winning streaks and cataclysm. Like can the team just lose like one game and then win the next one and lose one and win the next one. It's like seven game win streak, everything's going great. Go to the Padres, get swept, everything's terrible. It just feels like every loss now is like the damn breaking and like every time they lose one game like, well, they're not going to win for another 10 days. I'm going to have to wait a while. Not 10 days because they play every day, but you know what I mean? Like, do you feel this? Am I just not used to the ups and downs of a baseball season after so much time away?

[Sean Fennessey]

That might be it, but there's just something funky this year. I've been saying it to. My producer on the big picture is also a Mets fan, Jack Sanders. And we talk about Mets pretty much every day and something is just a little bit off on the team. And it doesn't mean that they don't have incredible players and it doesn't mean that they don't have great moments like a seven game winning streak where they look like the hottest team in the sport. But there are just a couple of things that have been off. The fact that they can't get more than five innings out of any starter not named Peterson, as you mentioned, the fact that they don't hit with runners in scoring position. The fact that there's not a lot of, like, native confidence when you're sitting and watching the team, despite the fact that they're clearly one of the best teams in the National League. We just don't feel confident. And some of that is we're so scarred. Like, I'm so scarred by the team, I can't even really process happiness with them. Last year was so disorienting for me because they were winning games that I often felt like other teams won against us. And so that lack of confidence seeps in every time you hit a rough patch or something, doesn't go your way. But I still think there's something off, there's something missing. I don't know what it is. I don't know if it's a player. I don't know if it is the sense that Mendoza has like, kind of taken a step back as a manager this year. They've had a weird stretch with umpires in the last two weeks.

[Zach Lowe]

So Soto was right, by the way, on both the calls that he protested. And I'm glad the manager came in and got thrown out instead of Soto. But yes, they've had a little testiness with the umps. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

And they've been, I would say they've been umping them a little tough recently. They've had, they've been. They've encountered some wider strike zones. Soto obviously, especially is the sort of the master of the strike zone and he takes great offense when someone calls a ball a strike against him. But you know, Brandon Nimmo had a couple of really tough at bats in that San Diego series that were brutal.

[Zach Lowe]

3 A three pitch strikeout where they were all balls.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. So I don't. Something is just, I don't know, cosmically. I'm just a little shaken right now. But maybe they add Sandy Alcantara and a bat and I, I head into August feeling excited.

[Zach Lowe]

It's funny because I had JJ on last week in your, in your stead. And I said to him, like, again, I'm coming at this from a position of complete ignorance, but having watched this team off and on now for a decent chunk of time, I have never felt like, oh, yeah, this has the vibe of a team that can win however many playoff series you need to win to make the World Series, they're just not consistent enough. And part maybe it's just they just never get big hits. It's just like every game is bases loaded, no out. They don't score it. Maybe I just something ineffable is just not like what the brewers have going on right now. Like that level of cons. Every loss I would take just like, give me a week where you go three and four. Just. I would. I would take that like it's. Every losing streak feels cataclysmic.

[Sean Fennessey]

I agree. There. There are. The swings have been heavy. I think with the exception of the brewers, pretty crazy late June through July run. No other team in the sport really has distinguished themselves though is great. The Dodgers have just not been as good as we expected. They've had a lot of injuries and pitching injuries. Especially the Phillies are really flawed. You know, I think they'll. They're going to be a tough out, but they also have a pretty weak bottom of the lineup. They obviously just reloaded in their bullpen. Their closer situation was a disaster this year. They've lost some really tough games in late innings. The Diamondbacks are not as good as we thought they were going to be. The Giants are not as good as we thought they were going to be. The Padres are not even 10 games above.500. Even though they just looked really tough against the Mets. It's just kind of, you know, the Cubs are good, but they're young in a couple of spots and their pitching is unproven in big spots. So I think one of the reasons why Stearns has been so aggressive thus far is because it just feels like it's wide open. It feels like if you make the right moves and you catch a wave and you get into the tournament, you could win, you know, and we're feeling better than Yankee fans. Yankee fans are pissed right now.

[Zach Lowe]

The sports talk radio is just like fire Volpe into the stratosphere. It's just everybody hates the way the Yankees are playing. Can I ask you one last question before you go?

[Sean Fennessey]

Please.

[Zach Lowe]

You said something that perked, perked my brain up a little bit. You said, maybe Mendoza has taken a step back. And I'm so used to NBA fans questioning the coaches on the most like, basic, like, oh, he didn't call a time out there. And like, coaching is so complex. I don't quite know how to evaluate baseball managers. Like, I don't really know what they're, what, what separates a good one. I know they set the lineup, they make the pitching decisions, all this stuff. But like what's the book on this guy? What's he good at? What makes a good baseball manager?

[Sean Fennessey]

Someone who ironically was raised under Brett Boone or excuse me, Aaron Boone, the Yankees manager. He was his, basically his number two for a number of years that the Yankees was hired away from them. And as someone who's described as having an incredible feel for the game, you know, somebody who like has been in baseball his entire life, really understands players, is friendly to players, not a hard ass, understands the mechanics and strategy of the game very well. In his first season he seemed to push every button correctly. The number one thing that he has done this year that has been a bit of a struggle is his sense of timing with pitching changes has seemed very off. And I think a lot of fans who don't understand the team as well as he would are like, why do you continue to pull pitchers after 86 pitches? We saw this with Sean Mania this week in the Padres where it's that.

[Zach Lowe]

Guy, by the way, as good as you advertised. That guy's nasty.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, he's awesome. He's awesome. And as long as he's healthy he's going to be huge for them this year. But there's just this, you know, we have Clay Holmes who's basically a five inning pitcher now and he consistently is being taken out with 89, 90 pitches. They're kind of trying to preserve his arm because he's never thrown this pitches in this many pitches in a season. And so Mendoza has been tasked with something tricky which is he's got a staff that is not giving him length, but a bullpen that is deeply flawed. And so every day if the bullpen makes a mistake, it looks like his mistake. And so he's just going to get more scrutiny. That's really what it boils down to. Whether or not he's like actually worse or he's being outsmarted by other managers, it's all debatable. Also the other thing that happens in baseball is we don't know how much control the upper management office has in moment to moment decisions like this. What's the book that he's getting before every game about decisions that they want to see, who is he being told is not available because of their expectations of what's going to happen with a guy's arm or how healthy they are or what have you. That is still a bit mysterious in the way that baseball operates. So I still like Mendoza. He seems like a very smart guy. He's a very open manager with the, with the, with the press Which I really appreciate. You know, to win and to be successful in New York, you really know how need to know how to handle the day to day anxieties of sad Mets fans like us. And I think he does a good job of that and I really want them to win with him. But I don't know, maybe he's taking a step back. We just don't know.

[Zach Lowe]

It's ironic. You mentioned the taking guys out early. Peterson was the other big example of that recently. The other day when Montes was pitching. I don't trust Montes, by the way. I don't. It's every, it's the fourth inning pitch, 82, every single start and he gave up like three smash line drives in a row. And I was saying to my daughter like, hey, I take him out. Like he's lost his stuff and they kept him in. He gave up more stuff. I'm like, I can't. I don't, I'm not a fan yet.

[Sean Fennessey]

Montas is the one move that David Stearns has made that I do not understand that it was the first signing that they made in the off season this year and they gave him two years guaranteed for $34 million. And he has been at best an average pitcher for the last four seasons and at worst unplayable. And Stearns is so shrewd and he was trying to time the market to get ahead of what he thought was going to be an outsized pitching market. And he didn't re sign a guy named Jose Quintana who was really good for them. And Quintana eventually signed for I think $5 million with the brewers at the end of free agency. And Quintana is having a significantly better season and we already knew what we had with him. So every time I see Montas pitch, I feel that phantom limb of Quintana who I loved watching, who's like a really crafty 37 year old vet who doesn't throw hard but gets guys out. And Montas I just think is going to screw us in the next two months. I'm just really nervous about him.

[Zach Lowe]

All right, it's 12:30 Eastern. We got five and a half hours ago. I'm going on vacation. I will have. I got Jeff Passons and the Nets beat writers Twitters. Refreshing. And I'm taking my mic to Croatia. I will watch some condensed games. I'm going to be in touch if anything happens. Sean Fantasy. The Mets corner bat signal may go up from across the Atlantic, but it's your time is very valuable. I really appreciate you giving us some of it here on the the joyful place that is Mets corner.

[Sean Fennessey]

Let's go Mets. Thanks, Zach. Have an amazing trip and I, I actually hope that we just go on a 40 game winning streak and you don't have to call in from anywhere in Croatia.

[Zach Lowe]

If we go on a 40 game winning streak, not only will we do Mets corner, I will be three sheets to the wind by, by, by game number 15 and just shouting obscenities around Dubrovnik. All right, bud, thank you.

[Sean Fennessey]

See you, Zach.

[Zach Lowe]

All right, that's it for the most eclectic show in the history of the Zach Lowe show and any prior podcast that me, Zach Lowe, was involved in. Thanks to Sean Fennesee, thanks to Joanna Robinson, thanks to Fred Katz, thanks to Jesse and Jonathan on production. I'll be back at some point at the latest in a few weeks if something crazy happens while I'm abroad. I got my mic, I'm ready to go. I want to thank everybody for tuning in over the last three or four months that I've gotten back in the game. Keep subscribing, keep liking, keep clicking, keep doing all the stuff that the young people say that you got to do for the Zach Lowe Show. Thanks everybody. I will see you on the other side. Must be 21 and over and president in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over in President D.C. gambling problem called 100 Gambler or visit FanDuel.com RG call 1-887-897777 or is it ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or is it mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland? Hope is here. Visit gambling helplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 244 7, sport in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOP E N Y or text Hope NY in New York.