← The Zach Lowe Show
The Zach Lowe Show
Wemby Lifts Spurs Over Thunder! Breakdown of the Biggest Plays, and a Preview of the East.
01:31:48
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- [00:00]
Zach Lowe
This episode is brought to you by State Farm. One minute the crowd's cheering, the next the scoreboard flips. Sports are full of surprises and life isn't much different. That's where State Farm comes in with their easy to use digital tools and over 19,000 local agents who can help you call the right play. Because when you know someone's ready to assist, you have the confidence to take on the unpredictable. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there with the assist. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Price and eligibility vary by state. Coming up on the Zach Lowe Show. Oh my God. What happened last night? Spurs, Thunder. The hype was through the roof and the series in game one exceeded the hype by a lot. Victor Wembanyama, I mean, what can you even say? The rest of the league watched that game and is just like oh, oh my God, what are we supposed to do? 45 points, 24 rebounds. Whatever the hell it was. I don't even know. Just living at the rim on offense. Only took two threes. Oh yeah, and the one he made. We'll never forget that one for the rest of our lives. From the Steph Curry spot to tie the game at overtime, spurs end up kind of dominating the second overtime. Up 1 0, this is now six games. The spurs are 5 and 1 against the Thunder. What can the Thunder do to get their offense on track against this monster who's just spending the whole game lurking on the baseline freaking everybody out including Shea Gilgis Alexander, the now two time consecutive MVP who had a 7 of 23 shaky shooting game. They just can't get in rhythm against this team. How much trouble are the Thunder in? How much trouble is the world in with Victor Wembanyama already being maybe the best player in the NBA? Certainly on track to be the best player in the NBA. If not now, then like tomorrow and just a two way performance the likes of which you will not see very often in your life. Rob Mahoney is here to help us with all of that. Plus a quickie Knicks Cavs preview. Maybe some winners and losers of the playoffs so far. That's all coming up next on the Zach Lowe Show. The Zach Lowe show is brought to you by FanDuel. The conference finals are here. Think you know how it'll go down? Take your shot with FanDuel and get closer to the action. FanDuel is the best place to bet the teams, the players and plays during the NBA postseason. Build the same game parlay for a shot at a bigger payout or try live betting and Jump into the action after tip off. Download the Fan Bill Sportsbook app now and play your game 21 or over in President select states 18 or over in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatinc.
- [02:49]
Rob Mahoney
Foreign.
- [02:55]
Zach Lowe
Show Rob Mahoney oh my God. What happened last night? What did we witness? Spurs thunder. The hype was through the roof. And game one somehow exceeded the hype. The the spurs win by some score in double overtime. I don't even remember anymore what the score was. Victor Wembanyama, 45 points, 24 rebounds, three blocks plus 16 in 49 minutes. And Rob, I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that that is as great and dominant a two way basketball game as any human being has ever or could ever play in a setting like this. I don't even like, I don't even know what else to say.
- [03:43]
Rob Mahoney
I don't even think that's hyperbole and I think we're going to do that a lot today of this was the greatest. This was the most amazing. This is. I mean I'm ready to go out and say like a game like this is just an amazing display of what modern basketball can be by both teams. Just like the pinnacle of where the sport is right now. But how do you do it better than that? How do you do it better than 49 minutes as a big in a double overtime game? And every single second feels like you are having a profound impact on literally everything that's happening on the floor.
- [04:13]
Zach Lowe
I don't know. What I do know is the spurs won the game. They're ahead 10 in the Western Conference finals. They did it without Darren Fox, the other guy who made the all star team for them this year. Like who freaking cares if he plays or not? I guess. Yeah. Dylan Harper had a fantastic game. Stefan Castle had 11 turnovers. I don't even care. I don't care. Dylan, he had 11 turnovers. I don't care because he's tough as shit and he made a bunch of plays that we'll talk about on both ends of the floor. Wemby just lived at the rim more than I think any game I've ever seen him play. He's just like, I'm, I'm not. He took two threes. We'll talk about the one that he made. Cause I think we'll remember it all forever. And before we sort of go through the highlights of the game you mentioned just the high level of intensity and play in this game. Just an apex NBA apex basketball kind of game. Stack it up with any kind of like high quality Cavs, Warriors, Warriors, Rockets in the Harden CP year. Like whatever you think of as this was as high and as brilliant a display of basketball as I've ever seen. This was one of those games and interestingly it was a very defense first game. You look at the stats. Spurs offensive rating 1, 06 per 100 possessions. That would have ranked I think last in the NBA or close to last in the regular season. The playoffs have been a totally different, much stingier environment. Thunder 102.7 points per 100 possessions. Like that's just, that's those are bad numbers. But you look at the process and you're like these teams are pulling every lever possible. They're probably the two best defensive teams in the NBA. The Thunder have certainly been number one and they're just digging as deep as they can into their resourcefulness into whatever bags they have to try and scrounge anything like a good look, especially in the paint. And this is the best they can do. And the spurs are now five and one against against the Thunder. And the common theme in those six games is the Thunder just haven't been able to score against Wembanyama. And the spurs defense in. In the. In the five regular season games they had a 109 offensive rating which is below league average. And again this is an elite 60, whatever win team last night 103. And I think as we zoom out and we will zoom out at some point, the biggest question that the Thunder have is what are they supposed to do on offense to get points. And we know that. We know how Wemby, where Wemby is going to be. Wemby's going to be guarding no one. He's going to just be playing his own. Sometimes he'll be guarding Caruso, sometimes he'll be guarding Dort Hartenstein. Just record time played out of. Off off the series. Out of the series. Can't be on the floor when Wemby Nyama's on the floor because you just like we saw with the Gobert, you can't give him a center whose only role in offense is to screen and dive. And if he's not doing that, he's just hanging out by the dunker spot. It just makes Wemby's life too easy on defense and just they I don't know what the answer is that that's the big picture question. But before we get into the nitty gritty, I mean, any, any big picture thoughts of that ilk or just takes. You want to get off before we go?
- [07:14]
Rob Mahoney
I need a cigarette like this. It really feels like, you know, the guy in the air traffic control room on airplane, like, I picked the wrong week to stop huffing glue. Like, that was every play in overtime and double overtime for me somehow. And it was like the quality of play was just escalating, escalating, escalating. The Thunder played a great game. Like Shai Gil just Alexander wasn't at his, like, emphatic best. And we're going to get into all of the elements of that, but they played well enough to win. They played championship level basketball. It just became so clear in watching this how much all season, frankly, as we did the dance of the Nuggets and the Wolves and the Rockets and the Lakers and all these other teams, like, everybody was playing for third. I I It's hard to watch a game like this and not just go through the mental exercise of, could anybody have hung in a series like this against these kinds of powerhouses? But even just like, what kind of players could the star on your favorite team be locked in in the way that these guys were locked in, the way that the a random rotation defender in this game was on pinpoint precision for, you know, 49, 45, 50 minutes, depending on how much they played? I It's amazing what the demands of, like, a contest like this are and what it tells you about who can hang and who can't because, like, Isaiah Hardenstein's a great player. He should be able to play in any series, and yet in this one, he's a problem. Chet Holmgren is a hyperversatile weapon in every other matchup. And then he goes up against the spurs and it's like, what do you do with him on offense? How do we tap into what makes him effective? I love what these teams bring out at each other. I love how dig, like how far they already have to dig to find those options. And if you're one of those fans who goes through playoff series, like, begging your coach to make some kind of adjustment, begging for some change in rotation. Mark Dagnolt's already made like 15 different modifications over the course of this game in the, in the search for something so, like, it's going to be a fascinating one to watch, just the tactics evolving in real time.
- [09:10]
Zach Lowe
I've spent the last two months, every four podcasts, I'm like, I can't wait to see if they try their version of the death lineup. I wonder if they've been saving it for a series like this. And that lineup to remind people is sga, aj, Mitchell Caruso, who I don't even know what the fuck happened with Alex Caruso last night. Just J Dub who came back and looked pretty good and Chet, that lineup played three minutes in the entire regular season. To your point about Dagnal, nine minutes in one game against the spurs in the Western Conference finals, plus three. And yet the search for offense continues nonetheless. Caruso like oh, footnote 14 three point attempts. He's going to be treated like the Celtics, like the Bucks treated Grant Williams in that famous Game seven. They're just going to let him shoot like if he wants to. I wrote in my notes in the first quarter, I have a Google Doc for every series. The notes for this one are, I think a mental institution would probably want to take a look at them and be like you. This is problematic how just whatever is going on here. But somewhere in the first quarter I wrote they're going to make him take 20 threes in this game and they made him take 14. And he made eight women at 31 points in like 17amazing defensive plays. They still lost. I just want to review.
- [10:25]
Rob Mahoney
Okay.
- [10:26]
Zach Lowe
Dylan Harper, 20 years old, 47 minutes, 24 points, 11 rebounds, six assists and seven steals. He had an and one in the second overtime when he just blew through Shade, Gilchrist, Alexander, like it wasn't even there and finished at the rim and it's like oh, 20 years old. Sure. Just bullied the two time MVP. Awesome. Like possession didn't go anywhere. Give the ball to Dylan Harper. Fine.
- [10:53]
Rob Mahoney
Also our like kind of point guard here. Go guard J Dub for significant portions of this game. Like not worried about it. 20 years old, no big deal.
- [11:01]
Zach Lowe
Steph Castle, a modest 5 of 14, 11 turnovers, also 11 assists and has just understood. Both of these guards have understood the entry passes that are too hard to make in 99.9% of basketball situations. By which I mean pick and roll switch. Wendy rolls to the rim, your big guy rolls to the rim and you're, you're directly like you're, you're what? Parallel? I don't know. It's a straight on pass, like a very tough angle straight on entry pass. A big defender's fronting it. You normally can't make that pass. They've all understood now. Oh yeah, we can just make any pass. He's going to go up and get it and great defense as always. We'll talk about that. It will be lost to history. Devin Vassell, 51 minutes, 13 points and a block on Chet Holmgren after an offensive rebound with 45 seconds left in double overtime. And the spurs up for where I just like Caruso misses a reverse layup. The Wemby effect brutal. And Chet gets the rebound of Devon, doesn't box him out, but makes up for it very quickly. And it just looks like, oh, this is going to be a dunk. And Devin Fussell goes straight up at the rim and just fucking swats Chad Holmgren. I'm just, these, these young guys are, are, are unbelievable. And the spurs are up 1 0. I don't know what else to say. Rob, before we get into the, well,
- [12:21]
Rob Mahoney
whatever, let's give Devin Vassella a quick moment here because I think we're going to get into the Wimby stuff so deep. We're going to get into all of these like, huge impactful scoring performances. And I think Devin Vessel is a really important breakthrough scorer for the spurs too. Like, you dedicate so much attention to Wemby and Dylan Harper and Stefan Castle in particular that he ends up getting some really painful buckets for opposing teams. But that block, and he's, he's had a bunch of these throughout this playoff run where he's not a guy who racks up steals and blocks, but the impact plays he does make on defense are top shelf shit, like absolutely elite in the moment, accept no substitute sort of defensive impact. He can be that guy. He's not that guy. Every second he's on the floor, he's not a go to stopper for 50 minutes. But man, I, I, I have learned not to underestimate who Devin Vassell can be on defense and how, just how vital he can feel in a game like this.
- [13:14]
Zach Lowe
And he's had a lot of great contested rebounds and gang rebounds and tip out rebounds like he has just decided. I probably came into the league with ambitions to be a 20 point scorer. Know I'm an ace jump shooter, all that. My defense wasn't where it needed to be and now I'm on this team like, oh, this is what they need me to do. Yeah, if we win, everyone gets the glory, everyone gets the credit. Let me amp up that end of my game. And he's done all that. Okay, I want to go through this a little differently. This is just plays I want to embed in my brain forever. From this game, we're going to go more or less from the end to the beginning. And just like, let's just riff on like, you may have forgotten some of these. I had to rewatch the game this morning to remember these. This is me to my brain. Please remember these. Are you ready?
- [14:01]
Rob Mahoney
I am ready. I had a feeling this pod might turn into like a Chris Farley show style. Do you remember this play? That was awesome. But like, let's just lean into the bit. Let's just make it the structure of the show.
- [14:12]
Zach Lowe
Yes, I love the Chris Farley Show. I used to joke that if I ever get Diana Taurasi on the Zach Lowe show, it will just be the Chris Farley show with Diana Taurasi as the guy.
- [14:21]
Rob Mahoney
As it should be.
- [14:23]
Zach Lowe
And this is just let's name some guys, except let's name some plays. Basically, I'm going to start in the first overtime and I'm going to start before the shot that everyone will remember forever. I think this will also be forgotten to history. And I wonder what your reaction to it was. About 40 seconds left in overtime. Overtime 1. The Thunder somehow are up by 3, even though it felt all game like they were just desperately searching for any kind of production on offense. They're up by three. They gotta stop. Shea has just had an incredible dunk to put them up by three. Champagne misses a three on the other end. They get the ball back. And with 35 seconds left and 11 on the shot clock up three, Jalen Williams takes a contested leaning, fading two pointer from the left elbow, again with 11 on the shot clock that in the moment, like, it's. When you're watching these games, you're both friends, you're trying to be analytical, but you're also frenzied because of how tense it is in the moment. I was like, oh, I don't, I don't quite love that. And we'll talk about what happened next. But do you re. Can you visualize that shot? And like, what do you remember thinking at the time? Cause, like, what am I, am I going to blame him for? Yeah, you know, what is he going to. I want him to hold the ball for eight more seconds and take a worse shot. I think I do, frankly.
- [15:41]
Rob Mahoney
I can visualize the shot you're talking about. I do remember thinking the moment.
- [15:45]
Zach Lowe
Oof.
- [15:45]
Rob Mahoney
Like, that is a tough look in this moment, but it's been a game of tough looks. And you're right about there not being a guarantee you're going to get anything better than that. I, I, I give J Dub a pass for that sort of thing because I thought he played just like an unbelievably like fearless game for coming back in not, you know, having missed a bit of the play coming off the injury.
- [16:06]
Zach Lowe
Welcome back to this game.
- [16:08]
Rob Mahoney
Seriously. And he didn't show like any hesitation in terms of going like all like full physicality, full speed plays all night. He came up with so many like really gutsy moments that. Can you blame a guy for trying to come up with one? That's a little bit ill advised.
- [16:24]
Zach Lowe
A shot clock violation probably would have been better in, even in, in real time. I thought that, but that is 11 on the shot clock was too early. But again I, he also, I can't remember exactly when it happened. It might have been on that Shay dunk. He, he got like Castle just straight up shoved him in the back and he fell out of bounds. Remember it looked for a second like he had aggravated his leg injury and thank God he was fine. That was probably should have been a foul. I don't even remember when it happened. My brain is broken. Okay, immediately following the J Dub. Miss this, you will have no problem visualizing.
- [16:55]
Rob Mahoney
No.
- [16:56]
Zach Lowe
Victor Wembanyama makes the Steph Curry three from maybe like a foot or two inside the Steph Curry logo shot from all those years ago. And I think the entire world blacked out for a second. There were 26.3 seconds on the clock when he, when it went through the net. So he effectively got them a two for one which almost ended up getting them the game. We'll talk about that. I mean, do you think he. I didn't see his postgame comments yet. Do you think he took that shot thinking two for one, thinking we're down three? This is as good of a look as I'm going to get to try to tie the game. And of course he, he spends the entire game playing the way everybody wants him to play. Rim, rim, rim. Not taking any threes. He takes one from a million feet out and makes it. And I'm just sitting there like the crowd went dead silent. The broadcast almost went dead silent rather than Reggie Miller laughing, just guffawing. Yeah, I mean it's just an all time shot. It's up there with the Steph logo shot. It's up there with the best of Clay's 11 threes in that arena. It's, it's. I mean it's not the Kyrie shot which won the championship basically, but it is, it's not the Ray Allen shot in terms of leverage and stakes, but it's up there with almost any shot in this kind of setting ever, considering the guy is 7, 5. It's the Western Conference finals and you're down 3.
- [18:12]
Rob Mahoney
The Steph shot is. Is the obvious, like, point of comparison as you raised, in part because the arena, in part because it's like, man, if only we got another double bang here for Wemby. But also the fact that you're getting that shot in a bigger moment with. With the greater stakes from a guy who has basically been playing like Shaq all night. Like that feels like forget unicorns for a second. The past and future of basketball collapsing on itself in a singular moment of, like, who Victor Wembanyama is and can be. The fact that he can do all of this all game, be dunking on everybody, be ruining Chet's life, and then pull up for a shot like this. I do think the 2 for 1 was probably on his mind because to be honest, it is drilled into, like, every young player from the second they get in the NBA these days. And he was on top of so many details in this game. I'm willing to believe that. I also think he is the kind of player who is so selective and so devastating in when he does deviate from what the smart play is like. He did spend the vast majority of this game doing that exact right thing all night, rim running hard, fighting for every offensive rebound, doing a lot of thanklessness stuff that the spurs need him to do. He also had a play earlier, I think it was in the fourth where he caught it in the paint, double teamed by Casen Wallace and Chad. And it's like, you should pass this ball out. Like this is a pass you should make. It's an easy basketball play. You have a wide open shooter and he just, like lowered a shoulder into Chad and then went up straight through him and finished in a way that is not the technical right basketball play, but is something that is ultimately more psychologically damaging.
- [19:43]
Zach Lowe
And so it happened. It happened with 10 minutes. It was on my list, so we could just do it now. It happened with 10 minutes left in the fourth quarter. Thereabout. It was a Harper Wemby pick and roll. They switched it. Kayson Wallace, I guess I don't even remember, was the guy who switched onto him. They lob it over the front. He catches it. Chet meets him on the catch from the dunker spot, on the catch right there. He's in a sandwich. He's in a sandwich and he takes one. He puts the ball on the floor, takes one dribble, and kind of just shoulder into chest. Chet's stomach and chest moves him out of the Way and puts the ball in the basket. You're like, okay, I don't know, what am I supposed to do now? It's Chet Holmd. It's not like he just moved away. Like. Like, I don't know, Nicole. Nicola Vucevic, he was Chet Holmgren. He was like, it wasn't even there.
- [20:23]
Rob Mahoney
And, like, that's the part of Wimby that I really and truly love, is. Yes, he wants to take the big shots. We've seen him throughout this playoff run. Anytime there's, like, a momentum three to take, he will usually take it. But he also wants to take the shots and make the plays that fucking break teams. And that's what this felt like, is one that. What do you do after the night he's had, after how dominant he's been on both ends? If he can also just step out and do this? If he can show the discipline to do all the right things, but also make it hurt in just that specific way where you have nothing to do
- [20:53]
Zach Lowe
about it, you know? As the game was unfolding and J Dub misses that shot and Victor's bringing the ball up, there was a suddenness to that decision. Like, my brain was. My brain was thinking, okay, what is he going to do? What's the play? What are they going to. And then he was shooting. My brain was not ready for him to shoot. And then he was shooting, and then it went in and it was like, what. What just happened? It was a very, like, weird cognitive. He was just. The action was ahead of what my brain was processing.
- [21:26]
Rob Mahoney
Yes. Do you think. Do you think Famous Thunder Paul George was anywhere on a couch being like, that was a bad shot.
- [21:36]
Zach Lowe
You know, I thought about couch repercussions several times in this game. And just people who are just. Are shivers going down their spine even if they're not watching the game. And we were going to do. When we still could do it. Winners and losers of the playoffs so far at the end of this podcast, but one of my losers was going to be the Hawks slash Zachary Richet and the Rockets slash Reed Shepherd. Watching Steph Castle do stuff like Steph Castle is doing. And just what a Sliding Doors moment. That third, I think Reed shepherd is going to be a nice NBA player, don't get me wrong. But the Rockets and the spurs, both ambition, have ambitions to win right now. And in that draft, they both had a shot to get Steph Castle. One team got him, one team didn't. And one team is in the Western Conference finals, and one team's not. And Emea Doka clearly had a love, not love, not trust, trust, sometimes relationship with Reed Shepard. Anyway, after the Wemby shot. Yes, Paul, Paul George is always feeling, whether it's whenever Dane does something, Paul George feels something shiver down his spine. It's just he's got a lot going on. I then I, I, I went to bed after the game and after watching some clips and I'm, I can't sleep. My wife is annoyed as hell because I'm just keeping the whole house up, walking around, pacing around, not sleeping. And I'm thinking, wait a second, wait a second. I remember, I remember the Victor 3. And I remember the sideline out of bounds to Steph Castle that Caruso breaks up at the end of the first overtime to go into a second overtime. What, what, what was it that happened in between? And my brain just like totally forgot what happened in between on the Thunders and possession. And what happened was J Dub had a wide open, not wide open, an open right wing three on a kick from SGA with five seconds left to basically win the game. And my brain, because it was such a mundane play, not it's nothing is mundane. It just looked like normal basketball compared to a 75 guy pulling up from Steph Range and Caruso breaking up and out of bound. My brain was just like, we don't have space in our memory to memory. Hold this one. So I watched it this morning. It's a pretty goddamn clean look. And again, some threes go in, some threes don't. But just, you know, I want my brain to remember like, oh yeah, there was like a pretty normal late game three pointer to basically win it for OKC that just, just like front rim, backboard and out.
- [23:58]
Rob Mahoney
I mean that's the agony of a game like this, right? Is ev every make or miss three. But also all of those layups and opportunities where, you know, Wemby had these guys kind of seeing ghosts or looking over their shoulder. Like it could be that shot or you could flash backwards and find like a missed Alex Caruso layup where he finally got past Wemby and then just like smoked it. Because you never really lose that guy. There's a million plays of which everything fell apart. That one though is tough. I mean, like that, that is the kind of look you're hoping for on the other J Dub possession, right is like, can you play process a little bit more? Can you get into the flow a little bit more? Can you get something a little cleaner? And they finally did and they missed it anyway.
- [24:36]
Zach Lowe
And then of Course, at the end of overtime, the lob to Castle that Caruso breaks up clean, just punted that thing live. I thought, oh, is that going to be a foul? And we're going to have a debate. And it wasn't. I don't think there was any foul at all. I think it was a perfectly clean play by Caruso after he had already made like several crazy defensive plays that we'll talk about.
- [24:56]
Rob Mahoney
We should also say, I just thought a very well officiated game overall. Like some, maybe some calls you'll quibble with. But like they let these guys play, they allowed a lot of physicality, they didn't bait, they didn't reward any of the kind of baiting and complaining that frankly goes both ways. Like Steph Castle is guilty of some of that stuff too. And that really contributed to the feeling of this is an important game. Like for, for as much as the league in particular tries to drum up interest around the regular season or the NBA cup, like it's very simple. This stuff feels important when it is important. And you could sense it every possession of this game, in part because of the level of physicality that was allowed.
- [25:36]
Zach Lowe
Some of my favorite moments from the officiating were Zack Zarba reviewing things for flagrance and just kind of quietly lecturing everybody involved that like, no, that's not a flagrant foul. Including when Wemby ran into Caruso with two minutes left. I think of the second overtime, Caruso fell over, some embellishment occurred.
- [25:55]
Rob Mahoney
Sure.
- [25:56]
Zach Lowe
And Dagnal, rather than just being happy that the refs called an offensive foul on Wemby is immediately like, take a look, review it, review it for a flagrant foul. And so they review it. And Zach Zarbon is like, upon review, there was no follow through, there was no wind up. This does not meet the criteria for a flag and foul. Just let's move on with life.
- [26:16]
Rob Mahoney
To be fair, all of those reviews in a game like this are like, can we please get J a water break? Can we please let these guys sit down for one second?
- [26:24]
Zach Lowe
You think, you think I, I'm missing the real point of the. Just to get rest? Okay, maybe I'm.
- [26:30]
Rob Mahoney
I think you got to buy every second you can in a game like this.
- [26:36]
Zach Lowe
Just. And then the last, before we take a break, a minute left in double overtime. More or less. The, the, the basket that end of the game. Spurs up one. And they did this a couple of times where they would bring Harper and Castle, the two guys that if you're going to help, you're going to help off those guys. They bring them high above the arc on the wings, and they have Visell and Champagne lower in the corners. And this is a scripted out of time out play. Double overtime. About a minute left, and Wemby ducks in on Caruso, I think, and they lob him. The entry pass. Caruso goes for the steal, doesn't get it. Chet comes over to help, and Wemby just crams on his face for an and one to put them up by four. And that's. I mean, there's more stuff that happens, but that's more or less the last super meaningful basket of the game. It's just a great pass, a great play design, very intentional, and just Wemby grabs the ball, doesn't give it back. And to your point, like, this guy loves just snatching your soul like that. And that was a soul soul snatching play.
- [27:40]
Rob Mahoney
Well, he loves snatching Chet soul, I think maybe more than most people. And there really is something about Chet, whether it's manufactured or not, whether it's media propelled or not, in terms of the way those two guys were compared over time. He just kind of hulks out whenever Chad is in the vicinity. And the number of baskets he just scored straight over the top of one of the best defenders in the world is kind of like shocking to watch. And yet I don't know what you're supposed to do about it. Like, Chet is in the right positions, he's trying to contest those shots, and the Thunder are trying to use him in a kind of a similar roving capacity. And it's like, what do you do? Like, what are you supposed to do if those, like, entry passes are that precise? If you're able to thread the needle over an Alex Caruso fronting contest in time for Victor to catch it, turn and dunk over the top of Chet Holmgren. If that's the case, you're just going to lose in games like this. Like, that's just going to. If that's what the battleground looks like. I'm not sure there's enough margin for hair for anyone, including the defending champions.
- [28:35]
Zach Lowe
So to your point about just the insanity of how big he is, a couple of the other plays I wanted to just review for fun. There was one in the third quarter, was again out of a timeout, and it was essentially the same play that I just described. Harper and Castle are lifted up to the wing. The shooters are in the corners, duckin. It's J Dub guarding him this time. They throw the lob and J Dub jumps with, like, all his might. He's fronting. He jumps with all his might. He reaches as high as he possibly can go to tip the ball. And in my notes I wrote, he reminds me of like a younger sibling or the runt of your childhood friend group. When someone taunts him by holding up the thing that he wants is like, you can reach it, you can get it anytime you want. Go ahead and reach it. Go ahead. And you can't reach it because the guy's too big. And then I think it was in double overtime. It was 2:50 left in double overtime. The spurs were up two. Somebody missed. I think Castle missed a 3. J Dub boxed out Victor Wembanyama in the paint and he just got the Billy Madison offensive reached up over his head, took the ball. J Dub is looking up like this, like he's staring up at a skyscraper or an eclipse or something. And Victor just grabs the ball like two feet above JDub's head and puts it back in to put them up by force. What am I supposed. And you could feel his pain, Jdub's pain. Like, this is a textbook box out. What else am I supposed to. Can someone else come in here and help me? Because I can't do anything other than this. He's just big boying these dudes like, Like a bully. It's not nice.
- [30:03]
Rob Mahoney
I thought there were so many of those textbook moments. And this kind of contributes to the high level of play overall. Like there were guys like J Dub doing the exact right things. Textbook precision in terms of the box out. There are also so many possessions where it's like watching the Thunder navigate the spurs like staggered screens. And it's like attack. It's like a touch and recover buried within a switch. Like they are navigating this stuff as well as a defense possibly can. And then you see it and it's just like, oh, they get the ball to Wemby anyway. Or Stefan Castle throws like a crazy cross court pass to an open shooter in the weak side corner because the low man had to cheat over to help to, like, body Wemby on the way. I really don't know what you're supposed to do, J Dub. I. I thought he fronted Wemby well. I thought he guarded Wemby well. I thought he boxed out Wemby well. It's just none of it meant anything. And what you're supposed to do psychologically to pick up after, after a game like that, what you're supposed to do in the Thunder coaches meeting to say, like, okay, how do we do the stuff we wanted to do better? There really isn't a lot of room for that.
- [31:04]
Zach Lowe
Well, I mean to that point. Again, the spurs offensive rating was 106 in this game, which would have been last or like bottom three in the NBA for the regular season. And with Wemby on the floor it was 109, which is better. But like the bottom line is the Thunders defense did its job. Despite how some of these highlights look, the Thunder defense was totally up to par up to the task. They just couldn't score enough to win the game. And we're going to talk about what answers if any they have, but let's take a quick break now and then they're just. Can can you indulge me? There's just a few other plays that I want to run through. Just let's name some plays. Name some guys after this please. The Zach Lowe show is brought to you by fanduel. And fanduel is giving you better payouts on same game parlays all NBA playoffs long. With more ways to build and more value every time you play. You can stack your picks your way for every game, every matchup and every moment. From spreads to player points to threes and more. Build it all into one same game parlay and go for bigger payouts. So if you're betting same game parlays this NBA postseason, bet them on FanDuel. More options, better payouts all NBA playoffs long. Head to FanDuel.com low to to get started FanDuel play your game. 21 are over in select states. 18 are over in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800- gambler, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. The playoffs are almost here. My favorite thing about the NBA playoffs the intensity and the strategy. Every game is treated like a must win game. It's even when A team is up 30 every quarter, every half has a new adjustment that you gotta really be dialed in to track. Oh, that guy's guarding that guy now. Why are they doing that? How is the other team going to counter that? It's the chess match that we don't really see quite as much of in the regular season. It's dialed up from the opening tip of game one in the playoffs. Playoffs are just awesome in the NBA. You know what else is just as great? Opening up a new bottle of Michelob Ultra. It's refreshing light with only 95 calories plus as the official beer partner of the NBA, they're giving fans a chance to win courtside tickets, unique prizes and more. Michelob Ultra Superior is worth playing for. Enter now@michelob ultra.com Courtside Michelob Ultra Courtside 25 to 26. No purchase necessary. Open US Residence 21+ begins on October 1, 2025 and ends on June 30, 2026. Multiple entry periods. See official rules@michelobultra.com Courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes and details. All right, some more plays that I want my brain to remember. A minute and 10 seconds left in the fourth quarter. It's 97. 97. I wonder if you remember this one of these. Quiet. Not it's not quiet, it's loud. But it will get lost in the the shuffle. 97, 97. Castle Wemby pick and roll switch. They throw the lob. J Dub steals the entry pass. Two on one. It's sga and I think Caruso and SGA decides I'm going. I'm the mvp. I'm going. It's tied. I'm in my arena. And Steph Castle goes step for step with him, kind of gets like one hand on the ball or near Shay and forces him to double clutch and take like a lefty layup that he releases on the way down and he misses it. And it's one of two transition defense plays by the spurs to break up two on ones late in the game. That is just as clutch a defensive play as it get. Like he didn't block it. He didn't get a seal. He did just enough to disrupt the layup. And the other one, I have to find the other one. The other one was Champagne and it was in the first overtime with 3 and 15 left. 1, oh 3, 1, 01 Spurs. Steph Castle threw like a wild turnover and it was Caruso and J Dub in a two on one and J Dub took it to the rim and Champagne, not known as a defender, stripped the ball. It went out of bounds off Chad's foot. So it was spurs ball. I mean two. And you can freeze frame those two on ones and say should was there spacing right? Should they have passed the ball. But you have in in the first one Castle in elite defender stride for stride and on both of them multiple spurs that are flying back where if you try to make that pass to the wing they're going to be able to disrupt the shot. But just like sensational all out balls to the wall. This is what it Demands in the Western Conference finals and clean plays.
- [35:31]
Rob Mahoney
Yes, I know for a fact it's Caruso and sga, because I have written in my notes. I can't believe Castle blew up that SGA Caruso two on one. And he not only got it kind of on the way down, but Steph Castle is so good at this where he's clearly, you know, as a smaller guard, he's going to take the bump and sometimes you're going to actually create separation. When you do, he'll get bumped back a little bit and he doesn't stay fully vertical. Like, he actually does come down with his arm, but his hands are so incredible. He manages to do that without fouling. He manages to actually get a strip. He manages to actually bother or get in your line of sight, even when he doesn't have, like the textbook perfect execution of that play. I'm in awe of Steph Castle, and I think this is one of those games where if you're just looking at the box score, you could probably focus on the 11 assists to 11 turnovers and be like, man, that must have been a really messy game from him. I think it was mostly a pretty messy game for almost everybody. Like, that's just what the standard of defense was. And I will take maybe not all 11 turnovers, like eight of those 11 turnovers. Because of plays like this and because of the way they frankly, like, energize a team. I think the spurs have this, like a really important thing in their corner, which is playing with Wemby emboldens a lot of guys to really go after it in a lot of different ways. I would make the same, same argument for Stefan Castle where you see that guy bust ass back in transition and blow up a play like this. And then if you are Julian Ship Penny, you're thinking, now that's my job too. Now I have to do those things too. I think there is a rising tide effect for all of the spurs best players, but Castle is like such a charismatic hustler that I think you cannot help but be kind of pulled in his direction.
- [37:10]
Zach Lowe
Unbelievable plays. It just. This is what you want out of a game of this level. Is everyone playing to exhaustion? And by the way, some of those spurs possessions, when they got the lead in overtime, you could tell that. And they were up four and they're milking the clock a little bit. You can tell Wemby is gassed. Like he's. He's hands on knees under the rim and like five on the shot clock say, all right, I gotta Go duck in now or I gotta move out of the way. And he'll, he'll move. But like, these guys were all gassed at the end of the game, as one would expect, but for Wemby in
- [37:38]
Rob Mahoney
particular, playing 49 minutes with this kind of physicality and with the play to play focus that these guys have to play with, like this is. It would be exhausting to do this for five minutes at a time and to do it as a big. With that kind of sustained effort while going to the rim over and over and over. May maybe the most understated part of a truly ridiculous Victor Webman Yama night was just the fact that he kind of kept going and the effort after effort after effort that came with it.
- [38:05]
Zach Lowe
99. 99. At the end of the fourth quarter, 11 1/2 seconds left. Enter the ball to Victor at the nail against J Dub. You're like, oh, I wonder if he's, is he going to shoot along too? What's going to happen here? Puts the ball on the floor, goes right, spins left, makes a one handed floater with his right hand going the opposite way to put the spurs up to 91 01.99, I guess. And you're like, okay, I mean, just a fantastic shot. Like, what else is there to say? And then Shay ties it on the other end with three seconds left, where they run the double Iverson cut. J Dub runs one way, SJ comes the other way, catches it at the left elbow and goes. And Victor's on Chet in the right corner. Hugged pretty close and hugged close. And in real time, I thought my brain did say, why is he not helping? I understand that you're in no threes, that you can't give up a three, but his superpower is he can be everywhere all at once. And they clearly told him, look, if they make a two, they make a two. Trust Steph Castle to at least disrupt the shot. And it was not an easy layup, but we'll take our chances in overtime. Beautiful play design. But were you, were you surprised he didn't move at all? I mean, I was a little, I, I totally understand why. And it ended up being the right call, but I, I was still a little surprised.
- [39:16]
Rob Mahoney
I went through the exact same process of like, wow, that is a wide open shot on a night where Shay, Gil Alexander has had nothing free and clear, nothing easy. And he's just getting all the way to the rim because of that spacing, because Wimy isn't there. I think given the chance to kind of legislate all that again, the spurs would probably do it the same way and it probably is the smart thing to do. It is. It was shocking though, and I again, I think it speaks to the fact that every other drive, Victor Wembanyama is there and the one time when he's not turns out to be a huge play in the game. But it requires an intricate play design. It requires a level of like, we have to respect the shooter in this one particular moment. And unfortunately for the Thunder, I don't know how translatable those things are to the rest of the, you know, 47ish minutes in a regulation game.
- [39:59]
Zach Lowe
By the way, Chet Holmgren, eight points in 41 minutes. It's not going to cut it in this series.
- [40:04]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, do you want to talk about him in greater detail now or later? Do you want.
- [40:08]
Zach Lowe
No, we're going to. We'll do it later. There are a couple more plays that I want us to all remember and luxuriate in, please. 1:55 in the first overtime. Caruso makes a switch in a steal in midair. Deflects a pass from Castle to Wembanyama. Yeah, just an incredible play. One of 19 he made in the game. And J Dub gets a run out dunk to put the thunder up 106. 105. Right after that, J Dub strips Victor Wembanyama in the paint. Clean defensive play. Thunder up one. They have a two on one and it's AJ Mitchell and I think Chad Holgren and AJ Mitchell pulls up for a three and again they're up one. There's, it's not like milking the clock is going to do you that much good with a minute and 35 left and the pass to Chet is going to be contested and somebody's coming behind him. It's. It's not as easy. It's not like one of those, oh, just throw the ball in the paint. You settled for a three in transition. But I did think, and maybe this is my brain being too conservative and I've had this discussion with coaches before. There are some coaches in the NBA who would love that shot. Sure. Like, like if we hold it, we'll probably get it contested two 15 seconds later. That's going to be a harder shot. If we take that shot, it's not quite a kill shot, but if it goes in, we have control of the game. Up four with a minute 30 left. My. Maybe my stomach is too old and conservative. I was a little queasy with that shot by A.J. mitchell.
- [41:36]
Rob Mahoney
I think part of it is because the Thunder felt so reliant on their threes in this game. Like the spurs defense was selling out, not just with Wemby, but with all of the defenders packing the paint, forcing all these other guys to shoot, forcing so many. They forced so many positions to go to Aaron Wiggins that Dagnall had to take him out of the game. It was like, okay, this is not working. We have to find something else here.
- [41:56]
Zach Lowe
I mean, he. They just ignore. Aaron Wiggins was in the strong side corner and they treated him like, I mean, like a Thompson twin. Just like, go. Go ahead and shoot. And yeah, by the way, I. We'll talk about a little bit more about adjustments, but the ESPN box score. Poor Isaiah Joe is not even in the ESPN.com box score. To the point where I woke up and I checked the box score and I was like, wait, did I hallucinate that? He was in for one possession in the game he played. Then I checked the NBA.com box score. He was in for 16 seconds. They just may need to play more. Like all shooting everywhere lineups. And we'll get to that. But I did. I'm. This game made me so crazy that I literally thought I hallucinated Isaiah Joe minutes. Like I was on an LSD trip or something. No, he actually did play. Okay, and then A.J. mitchell misses a three. And then we have the wild sequence. Spurs get the ball down one Champagne misses a three, and Victor Wembanyama gets the easiest offensive rebound of his entire life. Shai is the only one near him and he gets it. And he could do any number of things with it. He could put back, dunk it, he could bring the ball down and no one other than chase close to him and go back up and dunk it and maybe get fouled. Instead, he tries this like flying one handed, pretty under control, but one handed, airborne put back tip that misses. And I remember being shocked at how uncontested it was. Shocked at his choice, shocked that he missed. And then the ball like bounces around a million times and Caruso throws it off somebody's foot. Another Caruso play. But that tip, it's just one of many moments from the game where I froze. I was like, what just. What just happened? What did he do? Why didn't he dunk it? What's going on in the game?
- [43:40]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, it's, I think, further proof that all is not lost for the Thunder too. It's like one of those bounces goes a little differently on another Victor Webanyama back Possession. And all of a sudden this game doesn't go to overtime to begin with. Like, there's enough of those that you just need a couple things to go right. Even though it seems like with Victor, nothing can go right for the Thunder right now.
- [43:58]
Zach Lowe
And then there, after that, there was the Harper and one that I talked about earlier.
- [44:03]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, Jesus Christ, Dylan Harper, just ferocious.
- [44:06]
Zach Lowe
Okay, let's get to the big picture stuff. Why don't we go here? 6 games, 5 1. Spurs Thunder have been unable to figure out this defense. We mentioned some of the lineups and other things they tried in this game. I mean, you want to say, like, well, there's gotta be some adjustment. You know, if Victor's guarding this guy, then you put him in the pick and roll or use him as a ball handler. And it's like Victor's just going to do what Victor wants to do. He's going to be where he wants to be. And you really can't control him in that way. Because if he's on Caruso on the corner, like, yeah, sure, bring Caruso up in the pick and roll. Use him as a ball handler. He's a guard. Use him as a screener. He's just going to say, you take Caruso, I'm going to stay down here. And I'm not really sure what tactical adjustments there are for that for a guy like this. But just big picture, the Thunder are not going to win this series if they don't score a little bit more. They're not going to score a lot more because this team's too Good. They generated 21 turnovers last night that didn't even help them get a good enough offensive rating. How can they loosen this up with their offense?
- [45:11]
Rob Mahoney
I do think some of it is lineup related. I mean, you talked about the shooting. I thought the Jared McCain minutes were like a really nice pop for them for exactly this reason. Like, who can you put on the floor that the spurs do have to respect and do have to hug a little more tightly to the perimeter? Because right now it's basically no. 1. If you freeze frame some of these Shay possessions where he has the ball at the top, if he's not getting
- [45:30]
Zach Lowe
double teamed, it's insane. There's. There's just swarming him from everywhere completely.
- [45:35]
Rob Mahoney
And even if they're playing back, it's like four guys just outside the paint, basically like playing four corners, preventing him from getting anywhere near the rim. That's not going to be tenable. Like, you have to stretch it out even just a little. Bit. I thought McCain was good in terms of providing some of that space also in transition, like he's a guy who really goes for it when those opportunities are there. But Shay is a part of this too. I wonder how much of it is just the familiarity of seeing this fully activated version of the Spurs a couple of times, or maybe even one game is enough before he starts kind of reading the floor a little bit differently. I found it hard with an optimized television broadcast angle to fully understand sometimes, like, oh, is this. Is the hard double going to come for Shay here? Is it going to be that kind of soft, looming double where they're, they're gently pressuring him to give up the ball? Is this a quasi like hybrid zone that they're running on this possession, which the third the spurs were mixing in later in the game. I can't even imagine to be in Shay's point of view what that read feels like where you're trying to break down the shell of the defense and also Victor behind it. It's a lot. And I thought even for someone who had, you know, what, 12 assists to four turnovers in this game did a lot to kind of spur the playmaking, I pardon the pun, along as the Thunder went through this thing. But he has to be able to kind of parse what is happening a little more cleanly. And that's the kind of thing that just. It happens with experience. It happens with film. It happens with. Even though they did play five times in the regular season, all of those games had weird caveats where Wemby was coming off the bench or guys were injured or AJ Mitchell was out. It was like there was always something happening and it's like, okay, now everyone is full strength. What do the pictures of the game look like to you on a play by play basis? And I think Shay's just going to have to be a little cleaner in the way that he reads them.
- [47:14]
Zach Lowe
And he's good. I think it was 7 of 23 and I'll talk about how those shots are. A lot of them are very contested and the spurs are making some of his pet shots much more difficult than usual.
- [47:23]
Rob Mahoney
Yes.
- [47:24]
Zach Lowe
But on a very basic level, he's going to have to make more of the clean shots that he gets. And last night, you know, there were three or four where it's like, oh, I mean it, that's as clean as it can as it's going to get. There was a floater in overtime, I think with like 3:30 left where he got in there pretty clean. And it was a good look and he usually makes it. There was the layup we talked about. There were like, there was a wide
- [47:43]
Rob Mahoney
open like six footer off of. I think I want to say it was an Alex Caruso pass. And it's just like that's a, that's as as much of a gimme as you're going to get. And he was just, just enough off his rhythm all night that he couldn't hit it.
- [47:55]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, not all 23 of his shots are super difficult spurs contested shots. Let's say there are five that are pretty clean by spurs defense standards. He was one of five and needs to be three of four or four of five in these games. To your point about the shooting and I think that's what stood out to me is, you know, I remember saying in the regular season after the Christmas game with Kirk, I think on the pod that this is not a great Dort matchup. Like if he's not going to guard Wemby a lot and he guarded him a little bit in this game. This is a quickness based spurs team and not a power based spurs team in the back quarter. I mean they have power, but they have both frankly. And there's just not a great Dort. Like he guarded Fox a lot in the regular season. And Dort can guard anybody. He's very good. But it's a tough Dort series and if you're going to go all shooting all the time, the minutes, the guys who suffer minutes wise are going to be Dort and you know, Wiggins maybe. And there's just not that many other choices. But more McCain Joe might have to play. Who else suffers in this, in this equation?
- [48:55]
Rob Mahoney
Maybe Hardenshine even more like, yeah, Caruso's
- [48:59]
Zach Lowe
making his shots and it's too valuable,
- [49:01]
Rob Mahoney
I think too valuable defensively even when he does it. And really the argument to keep playing Lou do any significant amount is just kind of like you can't play Alex Caruso every minute, you can't play Casen Wallace every minute. And especially if you're going to start smaller, which the Thunder might in game two, Doord is going to have to play a semi significant role I would think even still.
- [49:21]
Zach Lowe
And other than that, like tactically, I mean, I guess if they're going to load up on Shay like that, there's got to be stuff you can do, you know, flare screens, cuts, you know, a little bit more juice and variety now that you've seen it once. But like that's all. It's not like that's rocket science. Like the spurs haven't seen that kind of stuff before. And yeah, I don't, I mean it's, it's just hard to score against this guy. And there was a sequence by the way, back to back possessions, I think in the middle of the fourth quarter. You know, Shay, Shay has made, made a meal out of the dead zone baseline, long two. That's it. That's his pet shot. And there was a back to back sequence in the fourth quarter that's like, man, this is what this series is going to be about. On the first one, he get, he beat, he got a switch and he's, he's hunting like the weaker spurs permitter defenders like Keldon Johnson, Julian Champagne, guys, you just can't stay with him. Even Vassell a little bit, which is smart. And then he's using that either to ISO or then go into pick and roll with a weaker guy. I mean, and he got somebody and he isoed and he went down to the left baseline. And you think it's going to be a clean look. Wemby's over in the opposite corner, but he's tiptoeing over the entire time. And by the time Shay gets to that spot, Wemby is there. And on this particular possession is when he blocked it on the right was the right baseline, rather he blocked it and that was like a holy shit block. I mean that shot doesn't get blocked. It sure as hell doesn't get blocked by a guy who started the possession in the opposite corner. And it's. You think it's the kind of block that if you're Shay, even arguably the best player in the world, two time mvp, that's in your head all the time, like, oh, that guy did that. And I'm like the very next under possession, left side of the floor, same spot, he gets there, then he backs it out. And Wemby just sort of stays in a zone on that side of the floor a little bit below Shay. And Shay revs up and actually gets by him for a layup. And makes the layup an absolutely sensational play. Imagine you just get blocked by this monster on your favorite shot.
- [51:17]
Rob Mahoney
Yep.
- [51:18]
Zach Lowe
And on the next possession you go for the favorite shot again and he's there. And you back it out and you assess your options and you decide, I guess the best thing I can do is just drive right at the eight foot wingspan and hope I'm fast enough to sneak this layup off the glass before he gets it. And he did. But that shot is Just like, it's super hard for him in this series.
- [51:38]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, that's what it's going to be like. Yeah, we can talk about the tactical adjustments, the lineup changes. I do think a lot of it is just going to be tightening up. It's going to be, you know, in game one, you can throw out 11 guys and see who works, and then you're gonna have to kind of cinch the rotation as you go. But it's gonna have to be Shay making MVP level shots against an MVP level opponent, meeting him where he is, and it's not all gonna be easy. Even if he does convert a couple of those open looks, relatively open looks, he's gonna have to do the contested stuff, too. I. I also, like, I was so striking watching the Thunder try to attack Wemby. How many drives were like half drives where they would not just, like, kick the ball out, but straight up, as you're saying, like, back it out, just full reverse, kill your dribble, pivot, look for some desperation pass to save you to reset the offense. Like, they don't really have even their usual driving kick flow because of Wemby. It's so much like, we have to abort this drive and go completely back to the drawing board of the possession. And if they can get anything resembling their usual rhythm, I think it's going to help the shooters as much as anybody. Like, the cadence of the offense is a little bit off right now.
- [52:42]
Zach Lowe
I do wonder, and Chris Finch talked about this in the last series, if part of it is you just have to go at him a little bit more than you think you do at the basket. Chris Finch talked about this several times. Like, I just want us to go at him, and if we miss, we miss. And Caruso had a pick and pop three that he passed up and drove into Wemby and finished a layup over him. J Dub drove Adam similarly from the left wing on a three that he passed up and drove into him and missed. But there was an offensive rebounding opportunity behind that miss. And I think that's like, if you drive him and get him out of the way and you crash with some tactical precision, you might be able to get some stuff. And Dort got an offensive rebound when Victor was on him and. And decided like, oh, if you're just going to ignore me, this is one way I can actually punish you for this. And he got a three out of it, and I think maybe that's part of it. But, I mean, the two guys you mentioned, you wanted to talk About Chet. So just talk about Chet. 2 of 7 took 7 shots and 2 free throws in 41 minutes. And Mitchell took 5 shots and no free throws in 34 minutes, 12 points combined. I mean, obviously that's not, that's not gonna get it done. Like, how can they get. When you watch Chet, who's not being guarded by Wembley, who's being guarded by wings, but Wemby's always lurking. Like, how can we. What, what can he do to loosen it up?
- [54:00]
Rob Mahoney
This is a tough one where I, I don't know that there's an easy answer. And it's in part because I think the reason the spurs are so good at neutralizing him is they take away all of his easy stuff, right? Like anything around the basket. Wimby is there and clearly in Chet's head. And the hesitations from Chet when he does get an offensive rebound, including on that possession, that Devon vessel blocked, that was basically the dagger. Like you can see Chad pause for like a very brief moment. Like, I want to collect this ball. I want to go up strong. Like I need, I need to come correct or else this is going to get blocked. And that hesitation is ultimately what dooms him. Everything around the basket is not there. Like the dump off passes are not there. The big to big Isaiah Hartenstein to Chet, like pick and roll lobs, connecting passes are not there. All of the offensive rebounds are that much tougher. So all of the easy stuff inside is not there. And then I think what's the icing on the cake for the spurs in that matchup is all of the mid range stuff that Chet has kind of gradually worked into his game over the last couple of seasons. Like the little kind of drive and turnaround.
- [54:59]
Zach Lowe
He.
- [54:59]
Rob Mahoney
He straight airballed one of those over a wimy contest. He got blocked.
- [55:03]
Zach Lowe
That's right.
- [55:03]
Rob Mahoney
I want to say he got blocked on another one. And then also even if you want to say, okay, all those things, all those things are taken away, at least Chet Holmgren still a really good three point shooter. The spurs are one of the best closeout teams in the league. He got blocked on, on just like a spot up three. And this is a seven footer out there who just because I want to say it was maybe Julian Champagne who closed out, had enough time and could do so aggressively with Wemby behind him. Like you can just kind of take away every, every piece of like bread and butter that Chet relies on to score. And I don't know what the tactical like way to, to open those things back up because some of them are so matchup specific in terms of what it means to have Wemby out there that I think it's just going to be hard for Chad no matter what you move around.
- [55:46]
Zach Lowe
Agreed. And look, I mean again, this is an incredible defense. Both these teams are incredible defensive teams and they have answers for everything they're going to try to do on Champagne. I said this on Bill's pod Sunday. I just want to reiterate it again. You just can't overstate how significant a mid season adjustment it was for Mitch Johnson to pull Harrison Barnes from the starting five and put Julian Champagne, a journeyman, undecorated, former two way guy, whatever,
- [56:13]
Rob Mahoney
well decorated in some places. Zach, I think if blogs still existed, well, Julian Shampany would be a blogger hero.
- [56:20]
Zach Lowe
That's true. But still, I mean it's not like Harrison Barnes was playing badly. He had started to slump and leak oil a little bit after playing a lot of minutes early. And obviously he's older and Julian Champagne makes you a little smaller, maybe a little bit more defensively challenged, but it was just a signal to the league like we're not going to give you a safe place to put your centers anymore and we're going to make you defend us straight up. And honestly. And Julian Champagne, I mean if you had said before the season he's going to play 44 minutes in a Western Conference finals game, I think you would have probably been a little surprised by that. And he is every bit ready for it.
- [56:54]
Rob Mahoney
Yes, he'll have a game in this series too where he hits like five threes like it's coming. He'll have those like drug test level 3 point shooting performances and he's so critical to their formula because of the spacing he provides, but also because even though he is among the most defensive challenged players that they actually rely on in their rotation, certainly in the starting lineup, the baseline for him is still significantly higher than the liability in the starting five on most teams. Like he's holding down a spot, he's doing his job. You don't trust him to guard J Dub necessarily, but you can trust him to do like a role within a team scheme.
- [57:31]
Zach Lowe
Just yeah, you're right. The three point, the three point shooting bonanza game is coming from him at some point on Shed. I do wonder, I mean defensively like again this, the, the Thunder were good enough to win the game. I do wonder if Chet on Champagne is the right choice for this series. And I've been wondering that all season. I remember after the Christmas Game saying, should he just guard Wemby? Like are. Are they over? Are they overthinking this? And I don't know if that's the answer because it's not like, you know, that makes life any easier. But it could make your pick and roll defense a little bit more traditional on these Wemby screens. By the way, Wemby set 45 ball screens last night, most in any game ever for him. His prior high was 32. Now obviously this is a double overtime game. More minutes, all that, even per 100 possessions, screens for under possessions. This was his highest game ever. So clearly they're leaning into this. And they scored according to the genius IQ, second spectrum, whatever tracking data. 1.2 points directly out of those plays, 1.3 points per possession and at least that would simplify it. Or do you try him on Castle? That's the only other safe place in the starting five. Really not. It's not safe. Castle has really like defeated that scheme over and over. Yeah, but if he's on Champagne, he can't really roam as effectively because he's on the best or second best shooter on the floor for the other team. And the spurs got several open or semi open corner threes because he's, he's straying a little bit too far off Champagne or Vassell in the corners. And again, their defense wasn't the problem, the Thunders defense. But I do wonder, I'm curious where we will see Chet in game two.
- [59:12]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, I, I agree with you that Champagne is not a great place for him. There aren't great options. I think, look, part of the reason they're keeping him out of that Wemby matchup is because especially when Caruso's out there, the Thunder do feel very comfortable having like the J Dub Caruso switch if they need to. Like, maybe you don't want to every time, but you have the option. It's available to you.
- [59:31]
Zach Lowe
That's the point of putting wings. There's multiple reasons people put their wings on Wemby. One of them, if we have another wing and we can just switch your best pick and roll combo, but they're beating that switch with the over the top entry passes over and over again completely.
- [59:44]
Rob Mahoney
And so and I think the question is like, would Chet be any more successful fronting in some of those situations or would you even want him to? Or does having the kind of even looming possibility that he could break up the lob from behind valuable in that way? I also like, you know, we saw Hartenstein start on stuff Like Stefan Castle, as many spurs opponents have done with their bigs. I. I'm still a little confused why, if Harper is available in the lineup, teams aren't trying the same thing with Dylan Harper. Who to me, like you can argue about who's the better shooter. I think Dylan Harper is a much more reluctant three point shooter. He doesn't want to take the early shot when it swings to him out on the perimeter for three. Like he wants to probe, he wants to attack. It's one of the best parts of his game. I think there is a possibility you could put Chad on him in select situations and live with some of the drives, try to contain that action otherwise, but especially if they're going to be playing smaller, I think you could move some stuff around and try to be creative with it. But Champagne is probably not the best spot to start.
- [60:40]
Zach Lowe
Well and again it should be mentioned Fox missed the game. We don't know if he's going to play in game two. That changes a lot of things in terms of the spurs rotation and if he misses game two. One of the things that I would like the spurs to do as much as possible is when Wemby rests. And by the way, Wemby and Shai are resting at the same time and I don't. I wonder what the reason for that is. I wonder if it's Dagnal signaling. I don't think we can score against Wemby without Shay on the floor. So we need to like almost attach them to each other.
- [61:11]
Rob Mahoney
So you read it as Wemby's coming out, Shay as the Is the adjustment to Wemby coming out versus I mean the opposite could be true too. No, that's true.
- [61:20]
Zach Lowe
I don't know. We'll see what the patterns are. But I liked it when Wemby rests and those cornet minutes were. The Thunder won those minutes. I want the spurs if Fox. I want the spurs to have two of their ball handling guards on the floor when Wemby's not on the floor because I don't want the offense to stall out. But that's. I guess we'll see what happens. Trying to think anything else on this game before we move on. I mean, my God. Oh the other thing is like the spurs have really. And I think this is a story around the league. Like when I watch the spurs in particular and they run these staggered screens and they run these Castle pick and rolls and talked about how Harper doesn't want to shoot early threes. Castle is willing to do it and he's made him in the playoff. I'm like, man, these teams cannot get under these screens. And I think the spurs have devised lots of ways to make it really hard to set up your defense and prepare to get under a screen. Castle's obviously a beast where if you do go under, he can just power through you and score. Harper can too. But I think league wide offenses have gotten really like, we're far from the days where every team would just go under on Rajon Rondo. And it was like the Celtics couldn't do anything about it. And it was just, it's like, it's really. Offenses have really matured and schemed to like. It's hard to get under these picks. As tempting as you want to say, well, just go under. Just go under. Sometimes you just can't do it.
- [62:35]
Rob Mahoney
The Rondo comparison, I think, is a great point. And it's to me one of the reasons why watching this game, which is obviously like a great playoff game, a great game of basketball, but it was great in ways that felt so different from a 2010s game, from a 2000s game, from a 90s game like this, felt so modern and distinct in terms of the matchup play, in terms of the defenses, in terms of the way that everything was evolving and changing shape to deal with Wemby as it went. And I think part of the reason those pick and rolls are so hard to guard too for the spurs is like Wimby has really improved as a screener in terms of the contact he makes. And I think part of it is the understanding, especially in a game like this. Like you talked about just the volume of ball screens he was setting. All of that was in a lot of cases just like preamble to like, how do we get Victor Wembanyama close to the basket, period? Not to hit him on the roll necessarily, but like, if he's going to try to walk or run to the rim, Alex Cruska's Alex Caruso is going to draw like three more charges on him. He's also picking him up basically when he crosses half court, like body bumping him and hand checking him the whole way, as you should do to wear down a big when you're guarding him as a small. And so it's like that is the clean release where Wimy gets to just like get a little closer to the rim, reset the offense, get those entry passes we were talking about. And the fact that the spurs execute that stuff with all of the patience and precision that they do for a bunch of like 20 year olds and 22 year olds out there who are making this work is just phenomenal. Like it. I really can't say enough about but ultimately the discretion of the way that the spurs are playing right now, starting with Wemby and the shots he's willing to take and not but also the guards too.
- [64:07]
Zach Lowe
I mean again, Dylan Harper's 20 and he had 24 points. Yeah, he only shot 8 of 20. Only quote unquote 7 of 13 on twos. That's great to have a 20 year old combo guard, point guard, whatever you want to call him in a game against the best defense in the NBA. The number one turnover forcing team in the NBA with a bullet gets you six assists and seven steals and commit one turnover is just audacious stuff from a rookie guard to win, to have him win you that part of the possession game, his part of it, that dramatically forcing seven live ball turnovers and committing one turnover total is crazy.
- [64:43]
Rob Mahoney
It's nuts.
- [64:44]
Zach Lowe
I could go, we could go for two hours on this series.
- [64:46]
Rob Mahoney
Fair.
- [64:47]
Zach Lowe
Let's take a quick break and we'll get more chances to do it. Let's take a quick break and then we'll finish up with some others. This episode is brought to you by Adobe Firefly the all in one creative studio with AI powered image and video generation built for today's creative process, Firefly helps you generate, edit and experiment fast because the asks aren't getting smaller and the timelines. Ooh yeah, still tight. With all the best creative AI models in one place, Firefly brings your ideas to life. Learn more@adobe.com Firefly this episode is brought to you by ServiceNow. Look, I have my dream job. I get to watch basketball, think about basketball, talk about basketball. But even dream jobs have the stuff that nobody dreamed about. The busy work that gets in the way of the actual work. ServiceNow's AI specialists tackle that work. Requests handled, cases closed, the whole thing done. So you have more time for the work you actually want to do. For me, that's breaking down SGA film whenever I want and then talking about it into a microphone. To learn how to put AI to work for people, visit servicenow.com stuff all right, I am headed to the world's most famous arena for Game one. There's another series going on. The Knicks are playing the Cavaliers in the Eastern Conference Finals and today's Knicks Cavs preview is presented by State Farm. Whether it's ball or life, nothing beats a great game plan. It's like a world class coach drawing up an Inbound play. State Farm is there to draw up the right plan for you and help you get the personalized coverage for whatever comes your way. But more on that later. For now, I'm here to assist you with the playoffs and so is Rob Mahoney. Knicks Cavs by the skin of their teeth, the Cavs are here. Two seven game series wins. It's the Donovan Mitchell bowl, the road not taken for the Knicks. A rematch between Jalen Brunson and Donovan Mitchell after the 2022 playoffs between the Jazz and the Mavs, which changed the course of history for those franchises and those players. The Knicks signed Jalen Brunson and then did not give the Jazz everything they wanted for Donovan Mitchell, the Cavs did and the Knicks then used a lot of those assets on Mikhail Bridges who will be guarding Donovan Mitchell for a lot of this series. Let's just be quick because this game is is tonight. I think the Knicks are favored. I am going to pick the Knicks in six to win the series same and I just think they're rolling. An anobi is healthy and they can put two of Bridges and an obi and Hart on Mitchell and Harden. They can put the third of them on Mobley and switch all the pick and rolls with Mobley. Cat can be on Jared Allen. The Cavs are going to attack Kat relentlessly in the pick and roll. They've really gotten smart about that and Cat's foul trouble always looms as an issue. They're going to hunt Brunson. You know the Knicks are well versed in that. Brunson will hedge against Donovan Mitchell and honestly like I would at least if if I were the Knicks experiment with let's see if James Harden can actually do damage against Jalen Brunson on a switch because he really couldn't get by Duncan Robinson obviously he's obviously bigger than Jalen Brunson but Jalen Brunson is not easy to bully. And on the other end of the floor when the Knicks have have the ball. I do think the Cavs in the last regular season game they played which is the only one with Harden, the only one after the trade deadline I do think they found some answers really for not the first time but for they they they've been up and down against the Knicks the last couple of years but they put Dean Wade on Jalen Brunson, Jared Allen hit on Josh Hart and Evan Mobley guarded Cat and they switched the Brunson Cat 2 man game which has been killing teams and you know they don't put their centers on Cat, they put their centers on Josh Hart and that kind of worked for them. But that gets to question number one is like is Dean Wade even starting this series or are they now all in with Max Strew starting? And can you duplicate that with Strus on Brunson? So some interesting matchup options. I'm going to go Nixon 6. I just trust the way they're playing a little bit more. But what do you think of this? Where do you want to start?
- [68:41]
Rob Mahoney
I also think Nixon 6. I mean I do think Strus can replicate a lot of that effect. We saw him, I mean just pick up Cade Cunningham in game seven. In terms of what he can do as an all ball defender, I think he can hang with Brunson, at least to a reasonable degree. My issue is almost more like how are you taking away and how are you coming up with answers in whole cloth that are new? Because the Knicks offense has completely evolved since the last time these two teams met. And so much of it to me is about that Josh Hart matchup. And if Cat is going to be making plays from the high post, how are you cheating away from Hart to gum up some of what the Knicks have at their disposal as a result? I think that matchup still makes sense with Mobley on Cat, Jared Allen in that helper spot, but you could also toggle it. You could flip those guys if you wanted if you thought there was any benefit to it. But Mobley has to be really disruptive in a totally different way than he was in these previous series. Like he and Allen both answered the call with their physicality, with playing with force. I think they both have have had tremendous moments in these playoffs. But now he's going to have to be like the primary point of attack defender for the hub of the Knicks offense. And that's something that we haven't really seen him do a lot of. But I'm eager to see what he's made of in that way.
- [69:48]
Zach Lowe
Yeah. And then and to your like, similarly to Castle, Josh Hart has basically more or less won that schematic battle if you put your centers on him. He's made enough threes, he's made enough plays out of the pick and roll as the screener. He crashes for offensive rebounds. He beats the hell out of you in transition, just flying ahead of your guys. But yeah, well. And again, the Knicks offense is run differently than it was in the regular season. They've just found a new gear, a new level of creativity. But some things remain true. The Brunson Cat, two man game and they run it in a lot of different ways is deadly. And step one against the Knicks is you've got to make that hard for them. And I think the Cavs can do that. And conversely, whenever the, they've gotten much better about this. Whenever the center on the other team is stuck on Cat, they just go right to that two man game and he gets open threes or drives to the rim or whatever the, the, you know, it's always been a good Mitchell Robinson matchup. He just eats them alive on the glass. And so that's an X factor. And I think they can play both of the bigs together a little bit more in the series if they want.
- [70:47]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [70:48]
Zach Lowe
And the other answer? Go ahead.
- [70:50]
Rob Mahoney
I do think the recognition you were talking about with Cat and opposing centers is to me like very emblematic of why the Knicks have been so good lately. They're just picking up on things so fast and they feel so dialed in into like, what are our matchups, what are the triggers? Like when do we need to go to these specific actions versus if you watch them in like January, February, they were searching all the time. It was like, how do we get Mikhail Bridges going again? Is OG Anunoby happy with his touches? Like, it never felt settled in terms of the flow of the offense. And to me, that's one of the big differences between these two teams is the Cavs still have, even for as well as they've played and certainly the way they kind of took over the series against the Pistons late, they have like some lag time in their decision making. Like, Donovan Mitchell can do incredible things, James Harden can still have great scoring performances, but it takes them a minute to figure out like, oh, this is how we need to adjust. And the Knicks, I mean, against all odds, they have, they've been one of the best teams in the playoffs. They've been one of the deepest and most balanced teams in the playoffs. And I found they've just been one of the most reactive teams in terms of the minute to minute adjustments of what playoff basketball is.
- [71:53]
Zach Lowe
They have been ready for it from the jump. Like when you, when you make an adjustment defensively, they are ready with the counter. On the very first possession, they, they read it and say, oh yeah, we're right, we plan for this. We're doing. It's not two possessions, it's not three possessions. There's no waste of time. They came out with a ruthless, calculated game plan right away against the Sixers like they wasted no time. We're putting embiid in every pick and roll. They were ready. They're this playoffs has been a really great coaching job by Mike Brown and his staff and I expect that to continue. The one lever they have that they haven't really had to pull and they tried it a little bit against the Cavs is if the Cavs defense starts to give them some issues, do they go with the super shooting lineups where everybody on the floor can shoot three so there's no heart and there's no Robinson and probably no Alvarado who can shoot threes but is a little reluctant. We haven't seen a lot of that. But with Shamet working his way back into the rotation, I would assume that's on the table for them, you know, and the Cavs. The Cavs, to your point, they are. They have proven themselves as maybe not as cleanly and rapidly as you would like, but they're good problem solvers and if you let them worm their way into a series, they're going to find some ways to puncture your defense. They're going to find some things that work. They're going to find some rotation wrinkles like more Sam Merrill, more Streuss, whatever. Dave. It hasn't been pretty, but they just won a game seven on the road by a million points. They came back from 2 0, beat the Pistons 4 out of 5 and as as ugly as it looks sometimes for them, it just can't be emphasized enough. Like they did play two of the five best defenses in the NBA by the numbers. Like it's not easy to play against those teams. They are going to make you look old and ugly and ragged at times if you're James Harden in particular. And the Knicks were I think the seventh best defense in the regular season. So it doesn't get that much easier for the Cavs. But I just trust what the Knicks are doing right now in an OBI full go in practice. He's been as good as pretty much anybody in the playoffs so far.
- [73:52]
Rob Mahoney
Just sick.
- [73:54]
Zach Lowe
By the way, one thing I would like from the Cavs, this is a little bit in the weeds and it could be useful in this series. They were running these staggered screens a lot in the regular season using Mobley and Allen as as screeners together and they were really like, like vary up what they would do out of it. Like so if Allen was the first screener in the stagger and Mobley was the second, sometimes Mobley would slip like the second guy would slip before the first screen is even used. And it was like a very smart way to leverage the skills of their big men. And they have kind of gone away from that and gotten slower and more predictable. I think. I think they need to dial just the general creativity factor up if they want to win this series.
- [74:30]
Rob Mahoney
I think they absolutely should. And that, I mean that would, that kind of stuff would be a great counterpoint to what you mentioned earlier as far as like if the Knicks do challenge James Harden to beat guys one on one, that's the sort of matchup that kind of like bogged down the offense even if it's successful. So you have to work in those wrinkles. You have to get the misdirection going. And I think it's even more effective with the level of spacing they've been playing with with Stru and Merrill out there like those guys actually do with their movement and with their gravity. Stress out defenses pretty significantly.
- [74:57]
Zach Lowe
Ringer.com Spotify/Spotify podcast listener Sam Merrill Shout out Sam Merrill Cavs have to win the free throw battle as they did against the Pistons rather decisively since they've gotten hard and they've become free throw machines. And interestingly both teams defenses allow lots of threes. The Knicks allowed the second most threes in the league, the Cavs the eighth most. And you know, can they direct those threes to the places they want them to go? Who makes threes? One of the things I think the Pistons fell into this trap occasionally. I'm interested in your thoughts on this. The this is always one of the interesting tests on defense, the degree of reaction to Evan Mobley popping for an open 3 similar to like Embiid. I thought the Pistons overreacted a little bit sometimes. Understand like he's he shot it okay in the playoffs but there were a few possessions in the last couple of games in that series where they over rotated to a Mobley wing three and yeah, they snuffed that out and it ends up in like a Merrell or Streuss corner three. I'm like I would just, I don't want to overre. I gotta make him make a lot of shots before I start going a little too crazy on that.
- [76:05]
Rob Mahoney
I think it's one of the hardest things about playoff basketball and it was one of the most jarring things to watch with Alex Caruso. Last night was just like the spurs were just going to live with those shots and they were going to try to contest them a little better. But you just have to commit to it if you're going to do it. Mobley's not getting that kind of leeway, like that kind of opening, you're still going to contest, you're still going to respect the shot to a degree. But I, I'm with you that I don't want, I don't want to overreact to it, especially because to Evan Mobley's credit, I think over the last like season and change, he's really improved as a decision maker in terms of how quickly he get rid of the ball if you do come at him pretty aggressively. Like his short role playmaking has been one of the best avenues for the Cavs offense in these playoffs and his willingness to make quick, good decisions out of those closeouts is like another good, like source of consistent offense. And so not only do you want to make him make the shot to prove that he's actually like, you know, a better than average three point shooter, which it kind of depends on the day when you catch him, but you just don't want to put the ball in the hands of an even better shooter who he will get it to very, very quickly these days.
- [77:07]
Zach Lowe
So we both think nicks and six knicks go to the finals for the first time since 1999.
- [77:10]
Rob Mahoney
Crazy to think about, but I they feel like a team that is just like even if you take this thing away, they have all these other options. Even if you think you have this advantage, their depth has really come through for them. Like Deuce McBride could have an amazing series. Landry Shammit could have an amazing series. They just have like what, six guys shooting better than 40% from three right now. It's, it's not, it's a, it's such a, like you put your finger in the damn kind of defensive premise with them that I really don't know what the Cavs are supposed to do. And that is a matchup where I'm have, I'm struggling to even just like conjure the vision of what a Cavs win in the series looks like.
- [77:46]
Zach Lowe
I think they're savvy enough that I don't, I don't think it will be a short series. But yes, they are under even Clarkson has come off the bench in the last couple months after being banished and played better defense, made better passes like he's been productive. All right, Nixon. Six, I guess, is what we're going with. Today's Knicks Cavs preview was presented by State Farm. State Farm is here with agents and easy to use digital tools like the State Farm app to help set you up with personalized coverage that fits your life and budget. Like a good neighbor State Farm is there. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Price and eligibility vary by state. Okay, rapid fire. Rob Mahoney. Let's do winners and losers from the playoffs so far. I will give you some rapid fire ones that don't need to be elaborated on too much. Yeah, and I'm going heavy on losers because as my daughter says, I'm a pessimist. She calls me a pessimist because I am a pest and a pessimist. Jaylen Duran. Yeah. And on the lower scale, Mark Williams and the just the center restricted free agents. It's going to be rough. I mentioned the Rockets and the Hawks, Stefan Castle, Envy Experience, the Celtics team extreme, ignoring the rim and all of that I think was exposed a little bit as a weakness. And then my other last loser is the GMs who are anonymously whining about lottery reform, removing a vehicle for them to tank. The whining has some basis in a legitimate fear of are we being trapped, Our team's gonna be trapped into badness or mediocrity. Some teams have already been trapped by their own doing in such states. But I do think the tanking severity of the tanking problem, temporary as it may be because of this draft, has gone to outweigh the fear of that particular fear. And there are ways to tweak the 3, 2, 1 proposal to make it a little friendlier to the worst teams or a little less punitive to the three worst teams maybe. But I think we've arrived at a chance at a time where it's worth trying. And, and I still, I just don't think you can whine about how horrible the tanking is and also whine about how impossible it's going to be to climb out of the bottom and and out of both sides of your mouth. I have one more loser and one winner that I want to get to, but give me a rapid fire, a couple Rob Mahoney picks.
- [80:07]
Rob Mahoney
Here are some losers. Anthony Edwards. Not because he's not great, not cause he didn't play through injury and I thought played pretty well under the circumstances but like ant is amazing. And yet can you imagine the wolves playing with the kind of focus and precision that the spurs and the Thunder and so to be an ascendant star in a time where like this does increasingly feel like Victor Webanyama's world has to be frustrating, an unfortunate circumstance for him. And I think the wolves just have so many decisions they need to make. It's kind of a tough time to be ant within the Celtics. I want to single out Derrick White
- [80:39]
Zach Lowe
as a loser specifically, I can't allow that on this. I know, I know. It hurts my soul a little bit. I love Derrick White. I love his game. It didn't go great.
- [80:48]
Rob Mahoney
We all do. Like, if you don't crack 40% from the field and it gets worse in the playoffs and you can't shoot and at the same time you're a guard who's getting older and entering into a different stage of your career. I just think we all need to be prepared for the fact that Derek White just might not be an impact scorer in any significant way going forward. And maybe this is like his Andre Iguodala, but more of an off ball defender and not a stopper kind of era.
- [81:12]
Zach Lowe
I wasn't prepared for this level of emotional reaction.
- [81:16]
Rob Mahoney
I'm sorry.
- [81:16]
Zach Lowe
And sadness, Rob, that I didn't sleep enough to digest what you just said. That that hurt me a little bit. On the Wolves. Couple of things. It's, it's, it's a thing on. Always a thing on Twitter after a game like last night where there's just sort of like, what are you supposed to do if you're one of these other teams in the West? And I saw someone smart tweet, I can't remember who it was. Like, you know, and we've talked about this before. Like, like, do you, do you try to. We talked about this. What it looked like the Thunder were the, the 75 wind juggernaut and like the only target, but now there are two targets.
- [81:51]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [81:52]
Zach Lowe
And we talked about, like, do you try to time your ascendancy to, you know, when the apron maybe forces them to make some tough financial decisions? And by the way, they've got at least another year before they have to do that. And I just don't think you can. And the, the Wolves would be a great example of that. Like, do we take a step back now, try to get some assets and go forward in four years? I just don't think, with some exceptions, depending on where you are as a team, but not the Wolves. I don't think you can think like that because you have an apex superstar, you have a very good team that's going to look different next year one way or another. But like we've seen, we've learned this lesson over and over again. Injuries happen. Windows close faster than you think or they close for one season and reopen the next. You just can't think that way. You just have to keep going for it and say, like, look, look, we're going to Be underdogs. Fine. We'll see what happens in the playoffs. Also, Mark Laurie and Alex Rodriguez, just every minute of their day now should be devoted to pushing the NBA to expand as fast as possible so they can get down to the Western Conference, because that's the other solution.
- [82:55]
Rob Mahoney
It's a great road for them, but I think this is one of those things where everything you're saying is right. I don't think you should get too cute about the timing of your team in basically any respect. You're just kind of asking one of those unforeseen variables to affect your team and then all of a sudden you're in a ten year rebuilding cycle. But like, if you were watching this game last night and you didn't, if it didn't feel like the NBA was changing, I fear you're not paying attention. Like, that felt like a hallmark moment in the direction of the shape of the league. And it felt like something that again, even though we all suspected this is Victor Webanyama's world, I think we now have pretty hard confirmation that that is indeed the case.
- [83:34]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, we do. That was terrifying. And the Wolves just experienced that. And they won two games against the Spurs. One game Wemby was 5 of 17 and did not play well by his own admission. And the other game he elbowed Naz Reed in the head because he felt like. And he was mad that he got ejected from the game. It's hard to beat them when he plays. They're now 38 and 3 in their last 41 games in which 1B plays at least 15 minutes. 38 and 3. That would put you on pace for the greatest record in the history of the sport. That's not bad. That one of my losers to that effect was Julius Randall and me for prematurely banging the gavel and saying that the Wolves had won the cat trade back when Julius Randle was playing well and Dante DiVincenzo was playing well and CAT was in the middle of yet another CAT existential crisis. Boy, was I wrong about that. Just don't have a gavel. Don't bang the gavel. These trades go back and forth multiple times. But Julius Randle four times in the playoffs and you thought maybe he had turned the corner last year with a really inspiring playoff run. Neck and neck with Ant is like the best guy on the Wolves.
- [84:35]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [84:35]
Zach Lowe
And just for the third time in four playoffs. A complete dud where his scoring falls off a cliff. 16 a game on 39% shooting, 24% on threes. Even more damning 34 assists to 34 turnovers in the conference semis against the Spurs, 9 assists to 18 turnovers, 13 points a game, 19% on threes, $33 million next year, $35 million player option the year after that. The Wolves are right up against the tax before resigning IO disumnu, which would take them probably over the first apron. I don't know what they're going to do. Gobert had a bad series against Wemby, just like was played off the floor during his minutes. They got some tough choices to make. They were in somehow the Giannis thing at the trade deal and I'm sure they'll try to get back in it. I don't really know how that works, how they get the draft assets to really do it. And by the way, the Knicks and the Cavs were potentially honest teams if they both advanced far enough to get out of that derby and just say we're good where we are. But he was one of my. One of my. He is. He is the main loser for me. Do you have any more before I get to my last winner?
- [85:43]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, corresponding winner for Karl Anthony Towns, who, as we've alluded to, has recalibrated his entire game in the process. I think, like kind of become a New York icon or a Knicks icon and at the same time has Wolves fans longing for the days when Katt was a part of their team. It's like he's just becoming increasingly beloved and also has just been playing with his head on his shoulders for an entire playoff run, which I never thought I would see, frankly. So an incredible time for Kat.
- [86:08]
Zach Lowe
So I. I wrote a piece for ESPN maybe two seasons ago about Kat having turned the corner in the playoffs. It was either 23 or 24. And I think it started in 23 when they lost to the Nuggets in the first round. And the Nuggets called it the toughest series we faced on our way to the title. It was 4 1. You know, McDaniels didn't play punch the wall. Nas Reed was hurt, all that. And Kat had a shaky first few games. And then like games 3, 4, 5 kind of turned the corner. And then the next year, got off to that start against Phoenix. They swept Phoenix in the first round with Durant and all that. And I wrote about how he had turned the corner in the playoffs because before that, you're right. Remember that Memphis, Minnesota series where he was constantly in foul trouble.
- [86:47]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [86:47]
Zach Lowe
Like not even involved in the offense a lot. And you were like, what's going on and he's been in foul trouble a lot for the Knicks so far. But he's defending at a basically career best level, I think across the board, making good decisions and just like if he can stay out of foul trouble, I think the storyline you're talking about where he becomes kind of a beloved Nick will will continue and I think they should win this series. My last winner and I just don't want to leave him totally in the rear view. It's been a while now since we've seen these guys play. Scotty Barnes averaged 24 points, eight and a half assists, eight and a half assists, six rebounds, almost three stocks, 51% shooting, 38% on threes, 54% on twos. Defended everybody. First it was Evan Mobley, then it was like actually we need you to defend James Harden and Donovan Mitchell and denied them the ball. Crazy dispiriting loss for Toronto in some ways. But no, quickly, the whole series, no Ingram, the last half of the series, they damn near almost won it. And I think they come out of that series feeling like, yeah, we have a franchise guy. Like this guy's going to be an all NBA guy someday and probably soon if he doesn't make it this year. He's borderline this year. I think he has a chance given the injuries, but he's ascending to become and like the threes, the threes were hit or miss, right? Like he doesn't take very many. His mid range 2 looked like a legit playoff. Like this is a good fail safe kind of shot, particularly against smaller guys. I just thought he had an outstanding two way series for them. I want to give him a little love, that's all.
- [88:24]
Rob Mahoney
Completely deserving. I mean there are portions of that series where Toronto's best offense was just like Scotty Barnes runs super hard in transition and he's such a terror to cross match with that. If you're a small who steps in his way, he's just going to literally dunk on you. Seeing him play, we knew who he could be defensively after this regular season. He's clearly like an ascending defensive talent. Really singular player on that side of the floor. But seeing his offense come together where he has some of the facilitation, some of the spacing with the shooting, but more importantly like the force of his scoring, I felt more acutely than ever. And so for the Raptors, I agree with you. It's its own heartbreak to lose a series like that. But to come out of this year with Scotty Barnes on the rise, Colin Murray Boyles really establishing himself in terms of his role within the franchise. That's a huge win. That is a great season and a great kind of resolution to come out of it with.
- [89:13]
Zach Lowe
All right, Rob Mahoney, when's the next group chat?
- [89:17]
Rob Mahoney
We got group chat tomorrow night, which I guess will be after, you know, Spurs, Thunder, game two. I can't wait.
- [89:23]
Zach Lowe
Oh, my God, I need to take a nap again before that game. And you wrote last week, what did you write? I read it somewhat. Something drove you out of writing Retirement in Prestige TV World. What was it?
- [89:33]
Rob Mahoney
Let me tell you. It was Dylan Harper.
- [89:34]
Zach Lowe
Dylan Harper. That's right. That's right.
- [89:36]
Rob Mahoney
If anyone can move me in the game right now, weirdly enough, it's Dylan Harper who's like the most pragmatic player in basketball but also somehow does things. And I'm like, I literally don't know how that worked. I don't know how you went one on four on a fast break and got a wide open layup out of it. But here we are, 20 years old.
- [89:53]
Zach Lowe
Rob Mahoney, you're the best. I will talk to you soon. Listen to him on group chat and Prestige TV and all that. Thank you, sir.
- [90:01]
Rob Mahoney
Thanks, Zach.
- [90:04]
Zach Lowe
All right, that's it for today. I'm headed out to the world's most famous arena for game one of the Eastern Conference finals. Thank you to Rob Mahoney for waking up early and for his time and insight on a whopper of a game won last night in Oklahoma City. Thanks as always to Mike, Billy and Jonathan on production and to you all for listening to and or watching the Zach Lowe Show. We will be back Thursday morning after game two of this series. God only knows what's in store. Come listen to that one and we'll see you soon. Thanks again. 21 are over and President select stage states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over in President D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MY RESET. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatinceneticut or is it mdgamblinghelp.org and Maryland Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New York. For Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7867.