← The Zach Lowe Show
The Zach Lowe Show
We’re Going to Game 7!! GAME 7, BABY! Howard Beck on the NBA Finals' Deciding Game, Plus J. Kyle Mann Previews the Draft.
01:49:39
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- [00:00]
Zach Lowe
This episode is brought to you by Factor. Make this your best season yet with nutritious 2 minute meals from Factor. Eating well has never been this easy. Just heat up and enjoy, giving you more time to do what you want. Get outside instead of prepping and cooking indoors. Factor Meals arrive fresh and ready to eat. Perfect for any active lifestyle. Get started@factormeals.com low L O W E50OFF and use the code low50OFF to get 50% off plus free shipping on your first box. All right, coming up on the Zach Low Show, It's Friday. I'm both groggy and wired because in 56 hours or so we are getting the greatest thing in sports. Game 7 of the NBA Finals. The Indiana Pacers did it again. Another magical win and a magical run and everything comes down to one game. Howard Beck and I break it all down. What happened in Game 6? What adjustments are going to come in Game 7? The stakes for both teams. It's here. It's awesome. Y' all love it. It's going to be great. And then because we have to, because other things are going on in the NBA, we're going to talk Lakers sale, which I think is actually really interesting. Kyle man's going to pop on to talk about the draft and Ace Bailey ghosting everybody, which I think is a delightfully funny storyline and just sort of the mystery of this NBA draft after pick number two, which appears to be set for San Antonio. But it's mostly Game seven. It's mostly just me yelling and screaming about how excited I am about Game seven and what's going to happen in Game seven, the NBA Finals. Man, what a series. Coming up on the Zach Lowe Show. You're listening to the Zach Low show presented by FanDuel, America's number one sportsbook has made it easier than ever to get in on the action during the NBA Finals. And with live betting, the tip off is just the beginning. Look for the live SGP tab on the FanDuel Sportsbook app and build your bet slip. Then sit back and enjoy the game as you track the outcome of your parlay right in the app. If you don't already have it, download the FanDuel app today and make every moment more the ringers committed to responsible gaming. Visit rg d help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available and listen to the end of this episode for additional details. Must be 21 over and President select states or 18 and over in President DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800- GAMBLER or visit RG D help.com welcome to the Zach Lowe Show. What up, Beck?
- [02:32]
Howard Beck
No preamble, just straight to it. I love it.
- [02:36]
Zach Lowe
I love it.
- [02:37]
Howard Beck
If I had any strength and energy left in my arms, I too would do the triumphant Zach Lowe thing. But my arms are tired. I am tired. Everything is tired. How are you, Zach?
- [02:49]
Zach Lowe
I am so excited. I am beyond excited. The Pacers blew out Oklahoma City. A skittish, nervous, creaky. You could feel the pressure. The trophies in the house. Champagne's in the house. Oklahoma City Thunder team that was talked up for three days. The dynasty's here. First of many. Here's how they planned it. Let's dump all our stories. Here's how it all originates from the Shard Lewis trade exception crowning moment. And the Pacers like, nah, you guys aren't ready. You guys aren't mentally ready for this game. Tyrese Halliburton's physically ready enough to be in this game. We are going seven with the finals. That has been excruciatingly tense at times, weird at times, super competitive at times, not that competitive at other times. Through six games, the total score is Oklahoma City +7. Both defenses have dominated the day. The offensive ratings for the series are about 25th regular season level offenses. And here we are. It all comes down to one game in Oklahoma City. The whole entire NBA season comes down to one game. And I kept, I said this with Bill last night after the game. It's a reminder. You can sit here and look out four or five years. Oh, Chet's going to make a max. Chet, you know, by the way, Chet shooting chat averaging 11 points a game on 35% shooting, 12% on threes for the finals. J Dub's going to make a max, deservingly so. He's in the contention for finals MVP if they win. And oh my God, they have all these young players and picks and topics and all the flexibility to navigate the aprons. All the aprons that there are. Winning one is hard. Winning one is hard. Even for a team set up like the Thunder win, which is completely unprecedented combination of good now and set up for tomorrow. Nothing is guaranteed. Nothing. Not one single championship is guaranteed. One is hard. The Boston Celtics were the most well set up team since the breakup with the warriors to bust the no repeat streak. Championship favorites to start the year. Everyone kind of assumed, yeah, they'll, you know, they'll get it together. Lost in the second round of the playoffs. Best player injured out for a year. Nothing is guaranteed. Those are the stakes for Oklahoma City 68 wins. All this basketball reference searching. I did Howard. Their place in history. Margin of victory. 68 wins with this record. 16 playoff wins with this record. Who, what clubs are they in? You're in, you're, you know, you're in one club right now. You're in the game seven club. That's all that matters. Three. Three is the only record that matters. And for Indiana, what's at stake is simply this. A chance to be the most unusual, unexpected NBA champion in the history of the sport. A chance to stamp yourself as not only an all time team as a champion, but in all time. We will all talk about this team forever. As long as we live and talk about basketball, we will do that anyway because of the heroics it took to get here. Because of the unusual way this team was built through trades and savvy draft picks. And you know, their, their starting lineup I've talked about before is all NBA player, sometimes all star, sometimes not all star, second round pick, first round pick who busted out in Boston. Potential perennial trade rumor guy at center. It's not anything like a traditional NBA champion. They don't play anything like anybody else in the sport. And that stylistic uniqueness has put them on the precipice of the most unexpected championship in the history of the NBA. If they pull it off, it will be just the most extraordinary story. Those are the stakes, man. And it all comes down to two and a half hours. That's it. Someone's going to shoot 10 of 12 and be a hero. Someone's going to shoot 2 of 11 with six turnovers and be an anti hero. Some unexpected someone might score 40 like J Dub did, like everything's on the table. One game, that's it. I could not possibly be more excited.
- [06:53]
Howard Beck
It's incredible. And the funny thing is, and you laid out some of this already, this entire postseason, especially where it regards the Pacers, has been about the unexpected. They weren't supposed to be here. They weren't even necessarily supposed to be in the Eastern Conference finals. One uncanny shot after another from Tyrese Haliburton. One uncanny comeback after another from the Pacers, and suddenly they're here. And it's like, well, oh, that, that was a nice story. We're all like rhetorically patting the Pacers on the head for what a wonderful story they've constructed. This underdog team that nobody saw coming, that somehow marched its way to, to the finals in a year where Jason Tatum blew out his Achilles and the Knicks knocked out the Celtics and the Cavs just Weren't ready. And whatever else the hell happened before this, they were a nice story. Let's be honest. We were talking about them as a nice story, not as potential champions. We all had thunder in five. Some more generous souls probably had thunder in six. I think I saw some of those out there. I think I might have seen a Pacers in seven somewhere.
- [07:57]
Zach Lowe
There are a couple floating around.
- [07:59]
Howard Beck
Yeah, right. Kudos to those people because even if they don't win it, it's on the table and we did not expect to be there. So, yeah, listen, man, I did not expect to be late last night canceling my flight home to New York with almost literal tears in my eyes because I, you know, at the end of the day, it's always about me first. Zach, you know this. I wanted to go home. I love a game 7. I am thrilled to get to witness another one in person and to cover it there in Oklahoma on Sunday. But I really wanted to go home. I had some flight kerfuffle stuff going on with trying to book to get to Oklahoma because I am adamantly anti NBA charter. There's a media charter, and I don't go on it. I torture myself with terrible connections.
- [08:50]
Zach Lowe
I get the miles, baby.
- [08:51]
Howard Beck
I got to get the miles. And I'm also just a control freak who wants to fly when. I mean, if I. If I were on the NBA charter, you and I would not be potting right now. So there's also the practical aspect, but the Pacers are absolutely incredible. They are unkillable. They are. Everybody's already trotted out, you know, Freddy Krueger, Mike Myers. Like, we're going to run out of like, 80s horror villains who cannot be killed to compare them to because they just won't go away. And there's some aspect of this where I was not even all that surprised last night, Zach. I was a little surprised at how jittery the Thunder kind of seemed. And I think Shay was the only one who really copped to it in the post game interviews, at least in the. In the room. I don't know about the locker room. I didn't get there, but there's something to that. Like, both these teams are young, you know, and outside of, you know, Siakam and Caruso, there was no real experience at this level. This is. This is different. When you get here, there's a reason why it's hard. There's a reason why we talk about the finals being different. And you and I have covered a ton of these. This is, I think, my 23rd NBA Finals. And especially on the closeout night of the finals or a potential closeout night, the energy in the arena is different. You, you just feel it in your bones. It, it is, it is a nervous, anxious, just tension in the air. And I have nothing at stake. You have nothing at stake. None of us in the media and a lot of people working for the NBA, no one has anything at stake. Only those two teams do. But I was having this conversation with, with one of our friends in NBA PR pregame last night. Like you just, you just, you feel it. Like you, I, I'm nervous. Why am I nervous? I have nothing at stake here other than I need to write a semi coherent story at three in the morning, which I think I accomplished. My editor, Matt Dahlinger, will be the ultimate judge. It's probably up on the ringer.com right now, but it's, it's different and you feel it and it's impossible not to. And when the players deny it or the coaches deny it, whatever, I, I, I don't believe it. And Shay did cop to it at least slightly in his post game.
- [10:53]
Zach Lowe
The Thunder were rattled last night. You could see it almost from the opening minutes of the game when they committed turnovers and offensive fouls. It felt like Shay came out.
- [11:08]
Howard Beck
A.
- [11:08]
Zach Lowe
Little bit reckless and nervous, which is a bad combination of things. Trying to win the game by himself and just driving into nothingness and hoisting up bad shots and driving into crowds and hurling out bad Turnovers. Finished with 8 turnovers. J Dub with, I thought otherwise played a good first half, but two of the worst turnovers you will see. The McConnell. Steel. The McConnell. Just the McConnell. That led to an OB Toppin, three OBI Toppin. Shout out leading scorer of the game for the Pacers. And then the famous, now famous, you know, didn't see Tyrese Halliburton coming from behind. Lazy kick ahead pass Steel. Pascal Siakam facial. Crowd going crazy. Game over. Essentially, they just didn't play well. Chet didn't play well and the, and the Pacers played awesome. And here's what I expect for game seven. They're usually nasty, grimy, close games. I don't think the Pacers will ever get out of character that will ever get rattled like the Thunder were last night. I think the Thunder will obviously play better there at home. The Pacers just play, man. They play their game, they come out and they play their way. It's a great thing about having this unique style of just the ball. Flow flies, bodies fly, and we just keep down Nine with a minute left. We just keep playing overtime. We just keep playing. They just play their way. And the reason I think they have a chance to win game said. Well, obviously they have a chance, but I don't think they have that kind of out. They might have a bad shooting game, they might have a couple uncharacteristic turnovers, couple bad def. Like Miles Turner at the point of attack. Might have a shaky pick and roll defense game against Shea. I don't think Shea went at him and the in the, the Indiana bigs quite enough in the pick and roll last night in Game 6. But they're going to play their style and they're going to play their way and they're going to play with a certain freedom and confidence that they bring every moment. And Oklahoma City did not play with freedom or, or sort of steadiness last night in Game 6. The Pacers are going to be. The Pacers.
- [13:08]
Howard Beck
Yeah, it's, it's a funny thing right like this. The Pacers already don't conform as we've discussed. They don't conform to any of our usual ideas of what an NBA contender looks like, plays like, feels like. Right. And the again the uncanniness of them even being here. But to go a step further and to just kind of play off what you just said about their style. We have these conventions or these construction, these constructs in our head about what an NBA champion looks like and it's always based on the stars, right? Why were the Thunder favored in the first place? Oh, there's you know, talent, depth and everything. Oh, but also like you Shay's the MVP and Shay JDub Chet is a better start, you know, a three star alignment than Tyrese Pascal.
- [13:55]
Zach Lowe
They have two guys who look like prototypical get buckets guys and the Pacers have kind of won in Siakam. Who's not considered like right.
- [14:06]
Howard Beck
So we, we go, we move in and out of of of hero ball praise, hero ball criticism over the course of the last 20, 25 years. Right. You know, Michael Jordan kind of sets the standard. Then Kobe pick and all these different guys and we, we want these high usage can. Can manufacture scoring out of thin air, break it down a defense, all of this, right. That's what we're used to. That's why we end up favoring the Thunder. That's why we overlook a team like the Pacers that is more this ensemble. Oh, how cute. They, they win off of ball movement and player movement. And to your point, they don't get out of character because nobody on that team is foolish enough to think that I can win this on my own or to get. Get baited into it, or to just get psyched into it or to, to simply feel the pressure that I have to do this. Because that's not how they win in the first place. And it's not to say that anybody, that a Pacer has never been guilty of a hero ball possession or attempt, but to your point, that is exactly it. They're not going to. They may get outplayed, they may get out talented, but they're not going to lose based on trying to do something that is outside of them or I got to take over the game right now. They don't have a takeover guy. And maybe that will end up being their detriment in game seven in crunch time when it comes time for like, Shade to just manufacture or J to manufacture out of thin air. That's why you want to have those guys in this league and why traditionally they're so valuable. But the Pacers, as you said, they just do what they do and it's awesome. And their, their offense is a lot of fun to watch. I did a piece last week with, with Mike d' Antoni where I talked to him about them being kind of a distant cousin of his seven seconds or less offense. It's, it's, you know, it's a beautiful game.
- [15:53]
Zach Lowe
The thing that is the Thunder's identity is their defense, obviously. And they came out, like I said, skittish, nervous. And I actually thought they would come out, at least on defense the other way. I thought they would come out in an absolute hellacious frenzy on defense and just like, risk some fouls, risk some bad gambles, risk some. But we are going to fly. We are going to play the first five minutes of this game with such incredible speed and force that we are going to put you on our heels and it might backfire on a couple possessions, it might pick up a couple cheap fouls, whatever. We are going to be in your jersey. We're going to be flying for every pass. We're going to be pressuring you everywhere. And they didn't play with that force. I thought they would just come out and like, default to. We can smell it. We are here and we are going to take it with our defense right now. And I do expect them to play that way at home in, in game seven, which is going to be. But by the way, Pacers. Okay, I'm cherry pick. I'm playing a little bit with numbers here. Howard Beck. Okay, I Wonder if a team has ever won the finals. And I should have looked this up and I didn't because I just found it right now. Without anyone averaging 20 points a game in the finals, the Pacers have nobody averaging 20 points a game in the finals. Now Pascal siakam is averaging 19.8 points a game. So again, I'm playing around a little bit with statistical minutiae. They have eight players, eight averaging double digit points per game in the series and nobody averaging 20 or more. I wonder if anyone's ever won the finals with nobody scoring 20 points a game in the finals. That's an incredible, incredible thing. All right, let's dig into the game and what to look for in game seven.
- [17:35]
Howard Beck
I had a suspicion, by the way, for a team that might fit it and I'm wrong. I thought maybe the 04 pistons, but Rip Hamilton and Chauncey both averaged 21.
- [17:44]
Zach Lowe
So I thought there are, there are some teams that come to mind. Even like the 80. The bad boy Pistons were slight, were pretty egalitarian as a scoring team as well. And defense first I thought of them. But again, you can go look it up if you want. I'm not looking it up. I'm too lazy. Someone will look it up. This is people whose job it is. Our stats people will look it up. You know, it's possible that the whole thing is just turnovers, that the whole series, all of game seven is just turnovers. And when the Pacers control the ball and don't commit turnovers, they have a real chance to win the game. When Oklahoma City, well, they have, they won game one despite nine million turnovers. So I guess this doesn't apply. But when Oklahoma City can, can snatch the ball and get out and running and get the easy points that they frankly need because their half court offense is a little bit stuck in the mud, then Oklahoma city becomes an 8020 favorite or whatever to win the game. And the Pacers controlled the ball last night. I don't know how many they had single digit turnovers before the game. Before the third quarter was over and the game ended, they had almost no turnovers. I mean essentially like by Thunder standards, none. Like six or seven or something like that. And you know, I was looking back this morning to just be like, how did they do that? How do you play against this team and not commit any turnovers like that? And I just think a, the Patriots are a low turnover team to begin with. That's their magic. Their magic is we move the ball a lot and we play super fast. And we do not turn it over. It's a very rare thing to play that way and not turn it over. And the one thing I noted, I noted it after game last night and it stood out to me again this morning. I thought they were very careful with their hit ahead passes whereas Oklahoma City was reckless and it came back to bite them. And I thought they were very choosy with their post entry passes. Like they looked off Siakam a couple times when he had a mismatch or a guard on him because they were just like, you know what, this is a high risk pass against these guys and we know you have a good matchup. Let's try something else from the outside in, dribbling, pick and roll, whatever. That's not a high risk entry pass. And I thought that was really smart and linked to that because the two sides of the floor bleed into each other and Oklahoma City gets offense from its defense, gets points from its steals. You know the stat to me of the series is the defensive ratings of both teams. The fact that both defenses have won against both offenses and Indiana has found a way to just bottle up Oklahoma City, confuse them and trap them into this half court game that when Indiana wins nets out to. And I don't know exactly how they're doing it. I rewatched some of the stuff today. I don't know, I don't have the magic formula. But the net product for Oklahoma City's offense is no threes, no no assists, no passing and just bad offensive ratings. So do you want me to give you some stats that really stand out?
- [20:46]
Howard Beck
Can't wait.
- [20:48]
Zach Lowe
OKlahoma City's played 104 games this season, regular season and playoffs. Here's where the six games of this series rank in passes per game. Just passes in the game that Oklahoma City threw out of 104. Listeners remember that number. 104, 87, 88, 93, 102, 103, 104. They are just not getting passing opportunities. Their assist rate for the series. They have assisted the Thunder on 46% of their baskets. NBA.com stats go back to 1996, 1997. No team has ever finished their regular season with an assist rate that low. Only 28 and a half percent of their shots, excluding garbage time, have been threes in this series that would have ranked last in the regular season by a healthy margin. So last in threes, last in assists, last in assist rate, last in passing. The Pacers are doing something defensively or maybe also not doing certain things defensively. That is just glitching Oklahoma City's offense in the same way every time. The formula works. No threes, no passing, no pace, no assists. It's like it's, it's just like. It's incredible what they're doing.
- [22:14]
Howard Beck
What is. What was their assist rate in the regular season or in the previous rounds? Do, do you have that up? Because now I'm really curious. Or how far off the Thunder are even from their own identity. Even though they're a team that can do a lot of ISO or solo.
- [22:26]
Zach Lowe
Stuff in the regular season, they're not a high passing team. They were 26 with an assist rate of 60%. So like the last place assist rate was Houston at 55%. They're almost 10 percentage points below Houston's league worst assist rate. And I just think that's. I again I have. We can talk about how. Theories about how I think Indiana is doing this but I. It's just a fascinating that the same a Pacers win or even a close game or a good Pacers game in the series. Oklahoma City's offensive output looks the same pretty much every time. And the simplest way is the ingredient number one is you don't get steals. And, and, and we can go into the more of what Indiana's defense is doing, but just the consistency of that kind of outcome is really startling.
- [23:17]
Howard Beck
Yeah, I, I mean some of this we kind of knew coming in or even through a couple of games that there was just going to be a massive contrast stylistically between the teams. But I, I did not. I would not have guessed that they were that far off even from their own regular season identity or model. And I don't. There's nothing I've seen that's left out over through six games where it's like this is how the Pacers are doing this to them. Are the, are the Thunder doing this to themselves? Is it simply the, the variety of. Of looks that they've had thrown at Shea? And it's thrown I like. Where does it begin?
- [23:54]
Zach Lowe
You want me to give you. I have seven bullet points. You want me to go go seven some bullet points.
- [23:59]
Howard Beck
Phenomenal.
- [24:00]
Zach Lowe
Hit me number one. You just nailed it there. They have the Thunder off balance and uncertain about who is going to come from where and what's going to happen. And last night Rick Carlile toggled the double team. Shay switch to on. Like Shay dribbles to his pet spot on the left side of the baseline. We're going to have somebody swarming him from behind. And it caught the Thunder off guard. The aggressiveness of it. There was one play late in the game when it was already decided, when Jalen Williams, who was two passes away from the double, made a really nice cut down the slot that got somebody else in open three. And you could see the Thunder sort of brainstorming, okay, now we know this is coming. Here's a certain way we can counter it. But Rick Carlisle might toggle that switch back to half on, half off for, for game seven. So off balance, number one, number two, they've just been better executing their scheme. Like think of the first two or three games of the series. There were so many jailbreaks where Shea would run a pick and roll against with, with Hartenstein or Holmgren setting the screen and Shea would split the double or split the hedge or whatever, and it would be five on three and Indiana would have to scramble out of that. Those have have shrunk closer to zero. And when they do happen, Indiana's execution on them has been a lot better with guys just sort of peeling off that way, toggling rotations and all that. They just nailed the rot every time there was an emergency. Number three, Indiana switching a little bit more just to keep them in the mud. And the last couple of games we've seen some Siakam switching onto Shay, which is a matchup they tried to avoid earlier in the series, and Siakam has done well against Shea. Siakam also guarded J Dub a bit last night to mess around with the matchups a little bit, put a little more force on J Dub. There's a sacrifice on offense for Indiana in doing that, he doesn't have a cross match like he did when he was guarding Dort. And there would be chaos with Pascal, the floor, Jalen Williams is guarding him. That's what Oklahoma City wants. But the sacrifice has been worth it. And then I think it's just been really interesting that Indiana has played no zone in this series because once Denver went zone against the Thunder and it kind of worked for a while, I started looking at tracking numbers like, well, Minnesota didn't play much zone this season, but they played a lot against the Thunder in the regular season. You know, Rick Carlile won a championship thanks in part to his own defense. He's got it in their playbook and they haven't played it at all. Two, three, four possessions, whatever, just not and not high stakes possessions. And if you ask what A, because they don't have to, their defense is working. But B, I'll bet you if you talk to their coaches, the reason would be a Oklahoma City got a lot of reps against Denver, against his own, against Denver and like, curse Denver, you ruined this for us. We can't do this because you did it so often. And baby, the one thing a zone does is it makes you pass, it makes you fill spaces and it makes you pass. And Oklahoma City has those reads like Hardenstein flashes to the foul line lob to chat. It makes you move the ball and they don't want to invite Oklahoma City to move the ball. They don't want to invite you to fill open spaces and pass. I think that's all of that is part of what Indiana is doing to Oklahoma City. And then Oklahoma City as a result leans into some of their worst habits on offense, which is zero pass possessions where they don't work anything, don't work any offense at all, don't work mismatches the right way, don't hunt the right way. Shay just settles for step back threes, which are fine, he's the mvp. And their offense just sort of is coaxed into this bait of one or zero past possessions. It's been a masterpiece of coaching schematics and execution and the consistency of the result, no threes, no passes, no assists, tells me that this is very intentional on the part of the Pacers and their coaching staff. And it's working.
- [27:55]
Howard Beck
It's almost as psychological as it is schematic. Right. Like you have, you've kind of messed with their heads on this and you and I have seen like a lot of these series things tip on, you know, getting like, you know, like for the Pacers last night, NE Smith, you know, gets hot, hits a couple of back to back hits back to back threes. I think they're late in the second quarter as they're starting to like really kind of gain momentum like you haven't seen. When was the last time like Isaiah Joe, I think hit a shot last night. I don't know the box score in front of me, but you need like an Isaiah Joe game or an Aaron Wiggins game or somebody else from the, the gallery with the thunder to, to kind of get a rhythm and get hot. And that doesn't happen when the ball's not moving because role players need ball movement, role players need the stars to, to get things initiated. And so it's it, they, it's, I don't know, like so game seven, everything hits stake. How did they flip the switch to just say, okay, we're, you know what, we're going to be a better ball movement team tonight against the same Pacers scheme.
- [28:57]
Zach Lowe
Would you like some ideas? Cause I've got some.
- [28:59]
Howard Beck
I, I, you probably have somewhere between seven and nine bullet points.
- [29:03]
Zach Lowe
No, I just have some stupid and obvious ideas. Number one, they only put Tyrese Halliburton in eight pick and rolls last night as the screener defender. He's on door. He's hiding on Dortmund. They had some success earlier in the game when they did that. How. But for, for comparison's sake, there were games against the Cavs in the, in what round was that? The second round seven weeks ago where Halliburton was put into 25 and 30 pick and rolls as the defender of the screener. This dude is hobbling on a calf strain, by the way.
- [29:32]
Howard Beck
Can we stop on the calf strain for a second? Was there any moment last night where you thought, man, that dude's got a calf strain and I don't know if he's going to make it through the game or is going to be not.
- [29:41]
Zach Lowe
Make it through the game. But there were moments where I thought, yeah, there were moments, thought it, yeah.
- [29:45]
Howard Beck
A couple early on where Vinnie Goodwill from Yahoo was sitting next to me and we were talking about like, ooh, ooh. There was a couple moments and then it's. I, I completely forgot about the fact that he was hurt at all and whether that's a little bit of like, was there gamesmanship on the part of, of Halberton and the Pacers? I, I mean, I think it was all very lit. Exactly. So I think it was all very legit. But. And 72 hours is a lot between games. And I did think even in the, in the time span, like, there's enough time here for round the clock treatment, whatever else. We don't know what the degree of the spray spraying is. All this other stuff. Halliburton certainly, when invited to take the bait, said, yeah, if it were the regular season, I'd be out for a week or two. That might have been gamesmanship. I don't know. Like, there's some, there's definitely some ambiguity there. But I will say, once we were through about the first quarter, maybe even sooner than that, I did not think about Halliburton as an injured player out there and he's diving for a loose ball or he's, you know, flying out of bounds. And by the way, you know, they like, one of the early indicators to me was like, just how much harder they were charging. The, like, this is such a coachism thing about like, oh, 50, 50 balls and force and D. They just looked faster to every Loose ball and. And just were just coming harder at everything.
- [31:00]
Zach Lowe
Well, they had to win the game. They had to win the game. The Thunder did not have to win the game last night. And that cannot be overlooked.
- [31:07]
Howard Beck
Yeah, sorry, Ma. Massive interruption by me of. Of your help.
- [31:11]
Zach Lowe
There were a couple drives that he started in the first half, and he pulled back from when I thought he had an advantage, he could have kept going. And those were the ones that sort of alerted me to, like, okay, maybe he's not. I mean, he's not 100%. And I also thought he struck the exact perfect balance of, like, I'm still massively impactful off the ball. And I have this other guy over here, Nemhard or sometimes Matheran, although he didn't play much Siakam, who can run the offense. And I still think, by the way, there's a little bit more room for Siakam. Halliburton pick and rolls both ways in. In game seven. But I can be a decoy. But I'm a moving decoy. I'm over here spacing the floor and then I can take the ball even as, like, Nemhardt, pick and roll on one side, swing it to Halliburton, pick and roll on the other side. Like, I thought he struck the perfect balance of that, but I. I think the Thunder did not go at him nearly enough defensively when Indiana was on defense. I also just think, like, there was a possession when Shay took a no pass 3. Nope. And it was an okay step back. But, like, he's the mvp. He's going to get shots like that. But it started with him bringing the ball up and Holmgren went to set a screen for him and Holmgren had Obi toppin on him. Shay can roast Obi toppin and Shay, like, waved him away. Was like, it's cool. I got just like, get the bigs. You. You've gotten good traction when you've gotten toppin and Turner and if they play Bradley and Brian, Brad and Brian's been relegated to the end of the bench. Now when you've got them high on the floor, default to that. Instead of waving away and defaulting to, I'm an incredible one on one player. Like, you can do both. But I would like the default to be like, let's get like and Chet. Roll to the rim. Roll hard to the rim. Mix in some roles because they don't care much about your pick and pop threes. They're just going to let you shoot them. Maybe stunted you a couple times. Mix in some Hard roles. But the broader thing with the Thunder and I talked about this last night a bit. What makes me nervous for them in game seven is that it still doesn't feel like they know who to play and when. Like, do we even know who they're going to start in game seven? There, there, there are like, if you. Who do you think leads the Thunder and plus minus for the series? Take a stab at it. This player is plus 31 in a series where the Thunder are winning by seven.
- [33:22]
Howard Beck
Blue. Dort. Nope.
- [33:27]
Zach Lowe
Is minus 16.
- [33:28]
Howard Beck
Oh, geez. I was pulling.
- [33:32]
Zach Lowe
I hate that. That phrasing is wrong. Lou Dort is not minus 16. The Thunder are minus 16 in Lou Dort's minutes.
- [33:37]
Howard Beck
Yes. The analytics people are very happy with you right now.
- [33:41]
Zach Lowe
Yay. Thanks, guys.
- [33:46]
Howard Beck
HARTENSTEIN.
- [33:48]
Zach Lowe
Hartenstein is minus 5 in 115 minutes.
- [33:52]
Howard Beck
I'm getting closer. Look at me go. Aaron Wiggins.
- [33:56]
Zach Lowe
Aaron Wiggins is a very strong plus 22 in 88 minutes. The leader is Kenrich Williams at plus 31.
- [34:05]
Howard Beck
Come on.
- [34:06]
Zach Lowe
50 minutes.
- [34:07]
Kyle Mann
But that's.
- [34:07]
Howard Beck
That's the fourth quarter last night.
- [34:09]
Zach Lowe
But, but, but, but, but still, like, he's been pretty good when he's played. And if you ask me, like, who are the Thunder going to start? The double big lineup's been all right. The double big lineup. Chet and Hardenstein are plus eight in 33 poultry minutes through six games. That's five, six minutes a game. Will they go back to the case and Wallace starting five lineup in place of Hardenstein. That lineup did not play last night for the first time in the finals. That lineup saw zero seconds of court time. That lineup is plus 10 in the series. Plus 32 and 66 minutes for the playoffs. Did not play in game five. Do they start that again? They love this Caruso lineup. I call it their A lineup, which is their Caruso for Hartenstein in the starting five. They've started that in the second half. Yes, a couple of times, including last night. I love that lineup. It's -13 in the series and -9 and 90 minutes in the playoffs. It just hasn't kind of clicked. I liked that they tried Wallace and Caruso together with Shea and J Dub and Chet. So that. That same kind of a lineup, but no Dort, because Dort was slumping last night. Wallace and Caruso are -32 together in 57 minutes of the series. I thought frankly, that we would see more five out from them in this series. Not a ton, but like six, seven, eight minutes. I thought it would be a regular part of Their rotation in this series based on how they like to match up with Siakam, and we just haven't seen it. And I wonder if maybe that's a look they can go to if in Game seven to just sort of get maximum speed. If Chet's not going to put pressure on the rim offensively and Hardenstein is going to play 16 minutes a game and be just okay, I think he's been all right. Maybe try that. I mean, these are all cockamamie ideas from an idiot. They have an incredible coaching staff who's going to. But it just, it makes me nervous. Like, I want to get to the Pacers know exactly plus or minus five Matheran minutes and five shepherd minutes and Tony Bradley minutes. There's never been one second where it's like, who are the Pacers going to start in this half? They start the same lineup every game. They have a pretty consistent rotation. It makes me a little nervous that the Thunder, and I think in part because Homegren and Hardenstein both missed significant time this season, don't feel quite like they know what to do with their rotation in this series. They got one game left. That's it.
- [36:26]
Howard Beck
I don't recall a final series where, I mean, obviously we haven't gone to seven in quite a while anyway, and you need to go deep in a series sometimes for some of these things to manifest. But I don't recall having so much ambiguity on either side of, you know, of a, of a series where you're kind of wondering game to game, where, you know, at the beginning of the series, it was kind of like, oh, is he making a mistake and going away from double bigs and, and then it's, it's kind of like moving in and out of it and we're going to do it here and there. And it, it just seems like is, Is that a, is a lack of faith, conviction? Is that a. We've just seen some things that, you know, maybe you and I are not privy to that, that alarmed us. And so now we have to. We're going to just keep adjusting on the fly. Is it? I, I, I, I. Mark Dagno's a damn good coach. He's obviously got about 30, 30 than Carlisle, and I may be underestimating that gap, but I don't want to place it on that. I don't want to place this on, on him. But I do think it's alarming, as you say, that we, you know, they're going into a game seven and who knows what the starting lineup is.
- [37:41]
Zach Lowe
I don't think it's been a great series for him. I think he's a great coach. I don't think it's been a great series for him. I think game six was a bad game and Indiana played a great game and Oklahoma City played a bad game. And I thought a disorganized game. And I don't. It's, it's just hard to know when you're not in the muck of it. You have this idea that a coach can like call a timeout and just be like, settle down, do this. And in this series, I've said this before, like a lot of Oklahoma Cities, they come out of a timeout and they run a scripted play with like fancy back screening action and split actions and stuff that looks nothing like their offense in the run of the game. And that's a very clear signal to me that the coach sees, the staff sees an offense that is a little bit stuck and is like, let's break out some stuff that forces us to move. And last night even like they used Shea as a back screener a couple of times to see if the defense is going to switch, how they're going to react, that he got called for an illegal screen on one of them. And the sort of default plan is, well, if the switch doesn't work or the screen doesn't get us an easy cut, what it's going to do is catapult him into a catch at the nail, a catch at the foul line where he doesn't have to dribble into it and he can work in isolation from there. And I think sprinkling in more of that is, but that's a message to me that the coaches see that the offense is stuck a little bit and I think they need to like exercise even a little bit more dominion over it maybe in the half court in game seven. Can I give you a couple of any other quick notes you want to make? I got some other quick notes. Just things to watch. Because of Halliburton's injury and because McConnell has been so incredible, we saw in game six Indiana risk some actual high stakes minutes with both Halliburton and Siakam on the bench. It's rare for them to do that. And Oklahoma City was not really able to win, was not able to win those minutes. I looked at the plus minus, just something I'm flagging. How is, how, how can Indiana manufacture offense in those minutes? It's really been McConnell and a little bit of OB top and even like Obi Toppin. I gotta Give him a lot of credit. He's not a post up player. He's not a back to the basket player. When he's gotten little guards on him on switches in the series, he has sealed the, sealed and controlled the paint. And when they swarm him, he like he's not getting stripped of the ball really all that often. He's maintaining his pivot foot, maintaining control of the ball, letting the air clear around him and putting the ball up in the basket.
- [40:12]
Howard Beck
And has incredible touch by the way. I keep being impressed just by how, how deft his touches around the basket.
- [40:19]
Zach Lowe
Free. Free from the New York Knicks. Free. Just another free trade that the Pacers were like, we'll take them, sure.
- [40:24]
Howard Beck
And now he's like two second rounders, right? I think it was two second rounders free.
- [40:28]
Zach Lowe
Whatever it was, it was free. It was a salary dump and the pace was like, this guy fits how we play. Let's take him a couple other things. One of the reasons I'm interested in just in the double big thing and who the Pacers start or who the thunderstart, whether they stick double big, put Wallace in Crusoe and do something wild and like put Isaiah Joe or Kenrich Williams in for the first four minutes of the game, who the hell knows? The. The double big thing just been fine. They're plus eight. I like what it does for their offense. It sort of unlocks a little bit more screening and passing and action in their offense. And we saw last night Chet missed the ali oop from Hartenstein, like just bonked it. But one downstream effect of it is they put Hartenstein on Siakam because they do not want Chet on Siakam. Chet guards Miles Turner and the Pacers are very predatory now and very smart when they get that matchup. Oh, you're putting your biggest guy on Pascal. We've. We now feel comfortable attacking that. We're going right to Halliburton. Siakam pick and rolls and he'll roll into the short roll area and make plays and Miles Turner will space the floor. I think they could go the other way and run inverted pick and rolls. They also had one play where Pascal brought the ball up with Hartenstein on him. Hartenstein was backpedaling and Pascal was like, oh, I'm just way faster than you. I'm going to dribble at you while you're backpedaling. Your balance isn't there and I'm either going to finish at the rim or. And this is what happened, you're going to send help and Niece Smith cuts behind the help and gets an AND one floater out of it. They've just found ways to poke at that Siakam Hartenstein matchup in very smart ways. And that's sort of like one of do you start the double bigs or not? Because if you do, you are inviting that matchup unless you switch it up, which maybe they'll do. Oklahoma City has been switching more defensively, which I think largely helped them in games four and five. Chet got burned a couple of times by Nemhardt, but they were tough shots in game six. Just one little thing about that. I don't mind that for Oklahoma City. I was happy that they started doing it. The Pacers have started hurting them on the offensive glass on the back end of those switches which leave a guard on Myles Turner or a guard on Bradley or whatever and they've, they've started to feast a little bit on the offensive glass. Just, just these are just little things I'm looking for in a game that really it just could come down to turnovers. The whole thing could just be turnovers because the, the crossover between Oklahoma City's defense and his off in its offense is so profound and so important for eliminating the stranglehold that the Pacers are able to put on their half court offense for a lot of the game. It could just be turnovers. That could be the whole game. The whole championship. The whole thing. Howard, it's game seven. Someone's becoming a legend. Pascal Siakam could become a two time NBA champion. Tyrese Halliburton could ascend to a whole different conversation. Shea could become an MVP. Maybe a Finals MVP. An NBA champion. The 30 point scorer at the age of whatever he is. Finals MVP is also like up for grabs in this game. Up for grabs if you care about it. It's there for the taking it since.
- [43:25]
Howard Beck
You brought it up because it's been in the back of my head. So you've been to to your share Finals. You know how this goes. When we all finally trudge out of the press room, stories hopefully filed, we go to what we call media hospitality. This is what the NBA puts on at the media hotel in whichever city. There's food, there's booze and we, we sit there and decompress and have stupid conversations. Somebody I won't. I'll. I'll leave Anonymous one One of our our colleagues from another organization brought this up at Media Hospitality and I and I've still been thinking about it this morning because it's an interesting thought and it doesn't happen often because we don't get to Game seven often, which is, this is MVP of the Finals. And we have to think about this, right? Those of us who may or may not be voting, we have to think about this ahead of time. You need to have a thought going in. You don't want to be just like three minutes to go and suddenly you have to send to you with the.
- [44:24]
Zach Lowe
Ballot before the game is over, if it's semi decided.
- [44:28]
Howard Beck
So it's, it's. You're doing this on the fly. And actually, just quick side note to my side note, when we do postseason awards, we agonize over this stuff, right? For weeks and sometimes even months. Because you, you usually know you're going to be a voter and even if you're not, you're maybe you're doing a column on or podcast on it, whatever. And so you have weeks and months to dive into numbers and analysis and all this stuff and talk to scouts and coaches and everything else. The NBA Finals MVP, which is a fairly big deal instead of 100 voters, it's 11. And it is on the fly. And there's no time to dig into anything because it's. You don't know when it's coming. You know, when there's a closeout. So to that point, the question that was posed last night was this, is the Finals MVP on Sunday simply the player on the winning team who had the best game in Game seven? Or is it the totality of the series? Because this could lead you down a lot of different paths and including like a hypothetical what if Aaron neesmith goes for 35 in game seven? And that's the decisive factor is, is does that obliterate everything that Pascal Siakam or Tyrese Halliburton did? Or if it were, you know, The Aaron Wiggins 35 point game, does that overcome whatever Shay and J did in the prior six games? Like, is Game seven, is the Finals MVP come down to just who had the best Game seven to deliver the title? Because it's an interesting discussion, I think.
- [45:54]
Zach Lowe
It likely comes down. Game seven has that kind of weight, right? Like, that's what you're saying, is this game is so single, singly single, singular. It's so singular in its importance that playing well in this game, playing great in this game playing is like playing great in the entire series by itself.
- [46:12]
Howard Beck
Because the series is tied, right? Like if everything comes down to one game, should. There's a case to be made that the Finals MVP is the guy who won that game. Not One quote unquote the series. Because everything is where, where the ledger is, is, is even.
- [46:25]
Zach Lowe
I think what's more likely is it comes down to who plays the best. If there's a decisive best among four players, Jalen Williams, sga, Pascal Siakam and Tyrese Halliburton, I think any of those four could win finals mvp. Like if, if the series ended right now, I think Siakam would win for Indiana and SGA would win for Oklahoma City. But if Tyrese Haliburton just conjures up 28 and 14 with no turnovers or Jalen Williams scores 40 again or 35 and Shea has like a whole hum 23 and whatever in the Thunder win up for grabs. Okay, before we move on to news, I will make a prediction. You can make a prediction. Would you like to make a prediction?
- [47:10]
Howard Beck
Sure, why not? You, you've talked me into these before.
- [47:13]
Zach Lowe
I'm going to say Oklahoma City wins by four. Oklahoma City wins a very close and heart wrenching game seven at home. I think it's going to be a game. I think Indiana could 100% win the game. I just think home court ferocious defense, a little leeway from the refs on physicality on defense favors Oklahoma City by just the teensiest march. Oklahoma City by 111-10-106 Oklahoma City.
- [47:43]
Howard Beck
I think it's just slightly bigger than that. I do think it's, it's Oklahoma and I think it's probably like four with four minutes to go and then there's like a closing kick with like four pace, you know, Pacer turnovers forced by, you know, Alex Caruso being annoying and handsy and stuff. And they're just taking off the other way and it ends up being more like, you know, an eight or ten point game that we will afterwards say it was a lot closer than the final score indicated. But I do think it's Oklahoma, that crowd. So we've been bouncing between these two cities. I don't go to every arena anymore, thankfully because I got off the hamster wheel a long time ago. I cannot imagine there is a louder arena than Oklahoma. I can't remember if I said this the last time I was in the pot or not. It's absolutely fucking ear splitting. And the Pacers crowd last night was absolutely awesome as well. It's just a different level of my head is going to explode when we're in Oklahoma and I, I think they will somehow ratchet that up another notch on Sunday. And those things matter, like the atmosphere matters. It gets to you. Yes, I I think it's Oklahoma and I think we will, we will come out of this series just with obviously with a profound new respect for the Pacers, who they are, what they have built themselves into, what they may yet still become because it's a pretty young team overall and a lot of Runway left there. Just as we keep talking about will the Thunder have, you know, as we prematurely veer into dynasty discussions and da da da da. And how many more of these could they do? Like they're really young and the all everything in the world ahead of them, second aprons and stuff notwithstanding. But the Pacers have a version of that too. And I, I, I, I have no idea really what to expect. I will make the prediction I just made, but I have honestly don't even know what to expect in on Saturday 8pm Sunday.
- [49:31]
Zach Lowe
One game for the entire thing. One game.
- [49:34]
Howard Beck
And then I get to go home and then I get to fly home.
- [49:37]
Zach Lowe
And just a reminder again, winning one is hard. Nothing is guaranteed in the NBA. That's what's at stake on Sunday. One game for the entire thing. The Zach Lowe show is brought to you by FanDuel. The NBA Finals all come down to this, and FanDuel's turning the excitement up even more with an all customer profit boost for every game of the series. As if you needed another reason to root for a game seven, it's here, people use your profit boost to bet which team will win, who's going to drop 30. Or you can build a parlay for a shot at an even bigger payday. If your bet wins, you'll win even bigger and then you can do it all again the next time. If you don't already have FanDuel, it's not too late to get in on the action. Just visit FanDuel.com Low L O W e my last name to join today. That's FanDuel.com low to claim your profit boost for each and every game of these NBA Finals. Only one left. Make every moment more with FanDuel. The official sports betting partner of the NBA must be 21 or over in President select states or 18 and over in President DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Opt in required bonus issued as non withdrawable profit boost tokens. Restrictions apply including any token expiration and max wager amount. See terms@sportsbook.fanduel.com Gambling Problem Club 1, 800- Gambler or visit rg-help.com this episode is brought to you by HubSpot. In the playoffs, extra possessions are everything. Same goes for Growing a business and HubSpot's customer platform gives you more chances to win Breeze. Their built in AI automatically takes care of marketing, sales and service tasks so you can game plan for growth. It's easy, efficient and most importantly, it's effective. Customers are cutting sales cycles in half and getting hours back each week. That's like turning those contested jumpers into clean looks at the rim. Visit HubSpot.comai to learn more. Okay. News near and dear to your previous life as a Lakers beat reporter. Biggest news of the week, the Lakers. The Buss family has sold a controlling interest in the Lakers to Mark Walter TWG slash Dodgers guy and evaluation for the stake that he bought which he already owned. He slash they already own like 26, 27% of the team of $10 billion billion dollars.
- [51:46]
Howard Beck
I'm glad you corrected the paint the finger to the pinky there.
- [51:50]
Zach Lowe
I, I think this is that, you know, there was a lot of poop. Not poo pooing but like oh wow, rich guys getting rich numbers to buy rich teams and rich people getting more money and the Lakers are still the Lakers. I think there's like a lot of interesting tentacles to this that just. I think it's really interesting. What's, what's interesting to you about it?
- [52:08]
Howard Beck
I was, I was stunned. Like everybody else knocked off my chair. Shout out to the Lakers for finding a way to steal headlines in the middle of the finals for the second straight year. Our buddy Michael Pena had a funny item on it the other day.
- [52:20]
Zach Lowe
This is what. But this is like again. I understand.
- [52:22]
Howard Beck
Look, nobody loves the purity happens.
- [52:24]
Zach Lowe
I'm the. I love the purity of basketball. I'm digging into X's and O's and the finals are like the be all, end all to me. I say all the time, this is what we do this for. I saw tweets last night about like no one should talk about trades or the draft or anything for the next 72 hours. Look, I'm sorry that the NBA organizes its calendar in such a way that the draft is like tomorrow and the NBA Finals are still going. Sorry. Like Desmond B got traded. Kevin. It just is what it is. The Lakers got sold. Okay, I was not stunned by the number, but keep going.
- [52:54]
Howard Beck
The world doesn't stop. No people like be grown ups. The world doesn't stop for the finals. Other things will happen. And yeah, it is unfortunate. And maybe the competition committee should be once again revisiting the idea of putting the draft after free agency because the same NBA staff who by the way do an incredible Job of putting on all of these things are going to go straight from a game seven Sunday night to having the same exact people zipping their butts back to New York to go put on the draft, and now over two days because we, for whatever reason, decided we needed to televise Round two on its own night. Give me a fucking break. So I covered the Lakers, as you mentioned, for seven years. I knew Jerry Buss just vaguely because by the time I started covering them, he was more in the shadows. He was not making the rounds. He wasn't as out front anymore. I got to know Jeannie even before she had taken over and have known her a long time since. And the, the nostalgia part of this and, and it's more than nostalgia. Right there is. You know, we always say, like, one of the most underrated things in MBA success or failure is, is ownership witness Matt Ishbia in Phoenix, or any number of others you can point to positively or negatively, it matters. But it also matters because the Buss family has had this, this franchise for a long time. So there's a nostalgia factor. I do think the nostalgia factor is a little overplayed in the sense that, you know, Jerry Buss, you know, passed away, and I think it was 2013. So it's been Genie for the last 12 years or so, and it's different. What we think of the Lakers during the Bus reign is, is mostly due to what Jerry Buss built starting in the late 70s. And Jeannie has done, I think, a fantastic job of, of taking over and also, I think, espousing and embodying a lot of what her father stood for. And she cites him often. And so it matters when it's somebody else coming in with perhaps a different ethos. I think it matters too, that whether it was Jerry Buss, especially during his, his, his heyday, before he's, you know, in his older, later years, kind of pulled back or genie. They've been accountable owners. They've been out front like, like the media knows them, the fans know them and know their voices and know what they're about. They stand behind whatever decisions, good or bad. And I think that matters too. And Mark Walters, Walker, Walter. Excuse me, Mark Walter. From everything I've. From what little I've read, you know, I'm in the middle of the finals, so obviously I haven't done any deep dives here, but, like, he seems like more of the, the typical, like, billionaire hermit type who you're never going to hear from. And so I wonder. I, you know, is. Is Genie Truly going to be the face of this. Still, for a while here, as they've said, I am always skeptical, especially after we saw what happened with Mark Cuban in Dallas. Skeptical that the previous owner can still be the point person, the figurehead, and also the. The lead governor. We'll see. But I think it. It's mattered that the Buss family has been very, you know, face forward and accountable through. Through all the decades. And that will change. The flip side of it, Zach, is this. We have often referred to the Lakers ownership under the Bus family. And this can cut both ways, positively negatively, as the. As like one of the last mom and pop shops of the NBA.
- [56:16]
Zach Lowe
I knew that I was going to say, let me guess what phrase you're about to use. Are you.
- [56:21]
Howard Beck
You're filling out your bingo card on the side. I can see. Oh, mom and pop shop. Click. And that cuts both ways. Quick anal or quick, quick anecdote here. I leave the Laker beat and leave LA in 2004. I go to New York to go cover the Knicks for the Times. My first trip back. I see Mitch Kupcheck in the press room. I go up, say, hi, Mitch, how you doing? Mitch Kupchuk, of course, originally from Long island, very familiar with all things New York. And he looks at me and he says, I'm gonna do a very bad Mitch Cupcheck impression. Are you ready? You look like a New Yorker, Howard. This is after I've been gone for all of a few months. I look like a New Yorker now. Like, how is that, Mitch? He goes, you pale. Thank you, Mitch. He asked how it's going. And I say, well, you know, it's really interesting. I said, covering the Knicks. You know, the Knicks are a piece of Madison Square Garden. Madison Square Garden at the time. At that time is still part of Cablevision. So there's all these layers. This PR person reports up to the Garden PR person who reports up to the Cablevision PR person. And there's all these layers. And I said, they've just got this massive corporate structure that is really hard to get your head around. And, you know, I. I said, I don't like that their flowchart must be like this massive just grid. I said, whereas with your flowchart, it would have just been, you know, genie to. Or excuse me, at that time, Jerry Buss to. To you or to Jerry West. And then there's a coach, whatever. And like, it's. It's pretty simple. It's pretty. A pretty flat flowchart. And he goes back to Bad Mitch Cupcheck impression. Howard, I've been working for this organization for 35 years. I've never seen a flowchart. Thus ends my bad Mitch Kupchak impressions. With apologies to Mitch Kupchak and the entire Cupcheck family. They didn't have a flowchart. I'm almost certain they did not actually have a. I don't think Mitch was being facetious, which is just to say that it is a very streamlined organization but sometimes to their detriment. You have probably heard as I have over the many years about whether they were fully staffed in the front office or in their analytics department or not.
- [58:19]
Zach Lowe
They were like they didn't have synergy. They didn't have synergy. Sports like when the other 29 teams had it, they weren't paying for it.
- [58:25]
Howard Beck
They, they have been lean. They pay their players. They've always been known to pay their players. Phil Jackson was the first coach that they really paid when he first got there in 99. They had been known to, to not necessarily go all out to pay coaches. There were tensions between Jerry west and Jerry Buss over Jerry West's compensation way back when I first got on the beat. They have lost good employees over the years in various capacities because of it. I will never forget the moment that they waived Brian Shaw in 2003 ish. 2002 ish. Because Brian Shaw was making like I think 2 million and they could wave. It was a non guarantee. They could waive him and sign him back for 1 million and duck what was then the dollar for dollar luxury tax which now seems like nothing. But they didn't, they didn't want to pay the luxury tax. And, and, and so anyway they are, they have been, they have cut corners over the years. They have run it like a mom and pop shop. It is the only source of the, of income for their family. That will not be the case under Mark Walter.
- [59:32]
Zach Lowe
Yes, no s. And here's, here's why that matters. Because there was snickering about well I mean the Lakers just get stars. They're Los Angeles. They have this built in market advantage. Stars fall into their lap. Whoop dee doo. They're going to spend more on analytics and scouting and whatever. All this stuff on the fringes. Does it really matter when they already have these built in advantages and there will be years when they whiff on the fringes and they still make bad draft picks or they've drafted very well in the second round or whatever. They're bad free agency signing in the big big picture over 20 years, 30 years. If you staff up like that and you get smarter people, better people, more expensive people, more expensive technology, you will in the aggregate make better decisions on the non star roster spots. And we are watching a finals right now where Indiana built a lot of its team by making smart decisions on non star roster spots. Where the Thunder are giving rotation minutes, huge rotation minutes to Alex Crusoe who they had in their G league. Casen Wallace who was a whatever first round pick, mid first round pick, Hartenstein, backup center that they poached from the Knicks when he was the start. He said it's like on and on and on. This stuff matters. And if the Lakers should get smarter as an organization, not that they're not smart now, but more smarter, more smarter. Smrt, as Homer Simpson once said, is better. Here's another reason why it matters. Yeah, so the Bus family trust, they had to vote, the six siblings had to vote whether to approve this sale. The vote I think was, I've heard was four to two. Two people voted against it. And I think it matters that one of these old school NBA owner groups is going to be at some point shoved out or to the fringes of the most marquee organization in the league. Now they retained reportedly 17% of the team. It has to be over 15%. If any of the buses, aka Jeannie is going to serve as a governor of the Lakers going forward. You must own and I guess the trust is counts even though it's a collective thing, 15% or more to serve as a governor. And I know that it was quote guaranteed I think was the language that was used in one of the reports that she will be a governor and running the team and making decisions for X amount of years. I just would say I'll believe that when I see it because I don't know what's actually guaranteed. I haven't seen the deal in writing. I just get like, I'll believe it when I see it. And this whole bus sibling thing became a mess in the end and now they're moving on. And look, I mean if I were Rob Polinka, he just got extended. That's great. Like I would, I would be a little nervous. I would be a little bit. Magic Johnson's lurking is like on the fringes of that Dodgers group. There's a lot of changes that could come from this. And the last thing I'll say is the price is the price. The more expensive these things get in every team. Is it like the Hornets or the Wizards are like a 2.5 billion to 3.5 billion team now, like every team is, is hugely expensive. You're just running out of humans who can afford majority stakes in these teams. And that's going to open the door for more funds, more kind of funds, all kinds of different orchestra. So I think it matters, I think it matters in a lot of different, in a lot of different ways.
- [62:55]
Howard Beck
And the Palinka Magic Johnson thing was, was very high on my list of, of, you know, mental bullet points on this too. You know, Jeannie obviously has an affinity for Rob Pelinka because of Kobe and a trust in him because of Kobe. And I have said many times over the years, and you and I, I think have had these conversations too where it's like, I, I think one of the mistakes owners can get into is hiring people because they like them or because they trust them, because they know them, as opposed to going out and really canvassing. Now. Rob Polinka has a championship. Nobody can take that away from him. Rob Pelinka was, I'm just going to say was there when LeBron James chose the Lakers and then executed a trade for Anthony Davis in which I think he gave up way too much. And he was there for Nico Harrison to send him Luka Doncic and did a fine job in those negotiations as well. But whatever. Weird, weird ass trade historically, as long as Jeanie Buss is still in charge and if she is truly still running the show after this transaction is complete, maybe Rob Pelinka is there for the foreseeable future. If I were a new owner coming in, I would be looking at everything. And yeah, the Magic Johnson thing lurks because Magic Johnson is part of the Dodger ownership group that Mark Walter is, is the head of. And so does, I mean, I, I don't, I don't know that Magic returning to the Lakers is, is a great idea by, by anybody's hand. It didn't work out so well the first time. And, and I think there's still probably a lot of lingering stuff between Magic and Rob, but I am, I am curious to see what this does for the two or for the Laker organization. I think that it is, there is a Lakers exceptionalism that is very real and it is, it is internalized by people who have been there a long time. That's Genie and a lot of others there. And I think a fresh set of, of eyes and ideas and, and practices coming in could modernize them in a way that could make them even harder to, for the league to deal with. I mean, the, the new cap is practically a hard cap and so the Lakers will not have advantages that they had for decades.
- [65:03]
Zach Lowe
It's not based on.
- [65:05]
Howard Beck
Yeah, it's not baseball, but you talk about winning on the margins, having a fully staffed analytics department and sports science department and more development coaches and whatever better use of the G League. All of these things that you can do if you want to invest all the places that the salary cap does not affect, all the other places that you can spend money that a truly wealthy new ownership group that's forward thinking might do, whereas the Bus family did not. It could make a lot of difference for them.
- [65:37]
Zach Lowe
Okay, last thing, we're just going to do this rapid fire, no explanation, no elaboration. I said let's pick our three biggest off season storylines that are not Giannis or not KD and I wonder if we'll overlap and you could go any direction if you want. You go first. Number one off season storyline. No elaboration. Just say it and we'll let it hang in the air for the next episode.
- [65:59]
Howard Beck
Who in the west, if anyone, can dethrone the Thunder and I threw that question. I typed that question yesterday before last night happened because I obviously expected a different outcome.
- [66:08]
Zach Lowe
Ain't no one sitting on the throne right now. My number one what, if anything, can the Denver Nuggets do to rearrange their team in the off season? Extensions, new coach, Repeater tax looming? Michael Porter Jr. I think it's an underplayed storyline. They may not be able to do anything, but that's my number one for me. Number two for you and your first.
- [66:36]
Howard Beck
Question might answer be the answer to my first question. For all we know that could dethrone okc. Are the Rockets parentheses and or spurs content to just kind of slow roll things with their nice, young talented teams? Or is it time? Or will they this summer make a big swing?
- [66:53]
Zach Lowe
Okay, my number two is similar and I'm going to exclude those teams because they are at least loosely tied to the Durant, Giannis, Nexus of whatever, mostly Durant. Now my number two is who is going to unexpectedly come off the top rope with a hey, the league's wide open, why don't we take a swing kind of move. I'm looking at you Pistons. I'm looking at you Hawks. I'm looking at you Clippers. I'm looking at you warriors and Jonathan Kaminga. And I'm looking at you Heat. And I'm looking at you any other team that I could think of, the Raptors or something. That's my number two Because I think someone's going to do something like, whoa, okay, number three.
- [67:30]
Howard Beck
Yeah, number three. Are the Celtics really okay with a quote unquote gap year? Especially considering, as you just mentioned, a seemingly wide open league and a wide open east. And just how much change are we going to see? Are they really going to peel off more than one core piece? Are they really just like mailing it in next? Because I don't think they are. By my gut would tell me that they're not. And I think that there are different directions they could go.
- [67:56]
Zach Lowe
Well, in a happy bit of synergy, number three on my list is where does the Celtics luxury tax shrapnel end up? Because they are going to peel away pieces.
- [68:08]
Howard Beck
Yes.
- [68:08]
Zach Lowe
They just have to. There is no reason for them to be over the tax by a gazillion dollars next year and all that stuff. And the focus for me is on Drew Holiday, and I think they're even. I've heard that there have been at least very broad discussions of three Team Durant related trades where Drew Holiday is. I mean, I think these could just be conjured by Phoenix in hopes of getting a deal done. More or less where Drew Holiday moves somewhere. He's just like, he was the, the, the shrapnel in the, you know, the, the Dame trade and ended up in Boston. Like, I, I'm just interested. So those are my three. We'll have a lot of time to talk about the off season when the off season starts. For now, Howard beck, we got 48 plus eight, 56 hours from right now, game seven of the NBA Finals, the first one in nine years. The most intense sporting experience I've ever been a spectator for. Slash, part of was that game seven in Golden State.
- [69:06]
Howard Beck
I think you and I were sitting next to each other for that game, weren't we?
- [69:09]
Zach Lowe
I don't even know. I've told the story for like, I, I was, I had my laptop closed the whole game. I was, it was so intense and my, I don't know who I was sitting next to, except Terry Pluto was to my left. I do remember that, but my vivid memory will always be I could see the chase down block happening right in front of me. I was slightly to the left of half court, slightly to that side of half court. And while the game was still going on in the excruciating four minutes where there were no stoppages, I leapt from my seat, almost like tripped and smashed my laptop on the floor because the monitor three seats down was like five seconds behind the game. And I had to see immediately did he actually get that before it hit the glass? And he did. And then I ran back and probably spilled a drink or something. 56 hours. It's here. Man. I can't believe it. The Indiana Pacers. Regardless of what happens, thank you for giving us some magic. Some this is real sports magic. What happened to the Indiana Pacers is real sports magic and we get to experience it one last time against the Thunder, the heavy favorites, the 68 win juggernauts on Sunday. I can't freaking wait.
- [70:23]
Howard Beck
I'm going to spend a big chunk of that time doing laundry Zach and then flying my butt back to Oklahoma for the for the third time. I can't. I can't wait either. It's going to be an absolute blast. I have no idea what to expect. I don't know. I'm still trying to figure out how we got here. That's I think what I wrote last night was something about the idea of just like nothing. Most of this does not make sense or it does not follow any script or any logic that we could have anticipated. And that's why it's awesome.
- [70:53]
Zach Lowe
Halliburton's shot in Madison Square Garden is still stuck in midair somewhere in the eyes of the basketball gods. Howard Beck we will. We will talk soon. Thank you for your time on Very Little Sleep. Enjoy the media hospitality. Don't enjoy it too much. I'll see you soon.
- [71:12]
Howard Beck
See you soon, sir.
- [71:14]
Zach Lowe
This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card One of the most useful things of my life lately has been my Apple card. It's great for game nights, vacations, just life in general and applying was so easy and quick. You can apply, see your credit limit offer, and then start using your card in minutes. Do it while you're watching a basketball game and you can start making purchases before halftime even rolls around. I also love how I can get up to 3% daily cash back on every single purchase. That's more money for game tickets. I feel like I scored big time when I started using Apple Card. Applying the wallet app on your iPhone, then start using it right away with Apple Pay Subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch terms and more@applecard.com okay look, the unfortunate slash fortunate reality of the NBA calendar is that as much as I want to focus all of my energy and every ounce of my soul on the NBA Finals and game freaking seven, the draft is in five days and so the entire league is doing another side of business. Jay Kyle man, we're going to talk about the draft. How are you, sir?
- [72:19]
Kyle Mann
I am doing fantastic. Excited about the draft, Ready to get it going.
- [72:23]
Zach Lowe
Been a fun draft week and you know, during the finals there's all these off days where all I have time to do is meet people and call people and it's, it's been, this is a fun one. I don't remember a draft with so much. I just kind of drama and mystery and mostly related to Ace Bailey this week. Has it been fun for you?
- [72:42]
Kyle Mann
Yeah, it's, it's funny because you go through these cycles of the. You do a lot of the work at the early part of it, you're trying to get people to tie and, you know, you kind of feel like the person trying to talk about the movie, it's that Jim Gavkin bitch trying to talk about a movie that came out like 20 years ago or something. Just people are not ready to talk about the prospects because they haven't seen them yet. So you're kind of, you're just telling that earth quietly until this time of the year where all the watching hopefully is done. I know if on the people who are jumping in are doing a lot of cramming, but for me, yeah, this is where the intel part of it really ramps up. So it's, it's a lot more of the, this person like to this person and who might try to dangle this person a lot of the leverage plays. But you get the sense from, from the people who, you know, cover the cap and things like that that this event is going to be a unique fulcrum for teams to make moves where they otherwise might not be able to.
- [73:30]
Zach Lowe
Well, we already saw one leading up to the draft, the big Desmond Bain trade, which I talked about earlier in the week. And the KD thing is KDing around. Okay, your mock draft got updated earlier this week, I think, or maybe about a week ago. I can't remember exactly when everyone's updating their mocks and remocks. We feel pretty good about Cooper Flag at one, that's done. It's, it's kind of locking in Dylan Harper at 2, despite the fit concerns with Fox and whatever. Like the duplicativeness. It's, it's, he's just the bet. Like I keep asking people, is there just no argument for any other player over Dylan Harper? Is he just that much better than the next guys at 3, 4, 5, 6? And the answer is almost universally, yeah, the spurs should just take him. And it seems like the spurs are going to just take him and figure it out later, which is the smart move for a team that's sort of still building towards where they're going to get. And then the fun starts. The Philadelphia 76ers pick at three, and no one has any idea what the hell is happening. From picks like 3 to 9 in the first round of the NBA draft. It's just a grab bag of con caniple. He seems to be rising. Trey Johnson seems to be rising. You have him third to Philly in the mock draft. Ace Bailey maybe is falling, maybe won't fall. So far is canceling workouts left and right. I want to live my life like Ace Bailey, where I just schedule appointments. And then I'm like, hey, are you at the restaurant? Hey, sorry, I'm not coming. Can you pick up the check? Did you order a bottle of wine? I'm not coming. Sorry, sorry. Cancel my hotel. Oh, non refundable. Sorry about that.
- [75:02]
Kyle Mann
Talent is leverage, right?
- [75:04]
Zach Lowe
Can you pick me and pay me $40 million over the next four years? Okay, cool.
- [75:09]
Kyle Mann
Yeah. If I behave like. Yeah, it's the. It's the whole Prince thing, right? You know, we all love Prince for how big of an asshole and how weird he was, but it was like, at the end of the day, the product's going to be on the table with Ace that, you know, for me, if I behave that way, they'd be like, all right, buddy, you see you later. Yeah, I do.
- [75:25]
Zach Lowe
I like picturing Daryl Morey and Elton Brand at a restaurant just like quietly. Yeah, we have some more. Is there. Can we have some more bread while we wait, please?
- [75:34]
Kyle Mann
The light like clinking of glasses in their silence as they're just sitting there. Yeah.
- [75:40]
Zach Lowe
Sir, I don't think you're. Is your party coming? Because this. We need this table. Okay, so you have Philly taking Trey Johnson. And I have heard that he's just killing workouts that people are coming away with. Like, oh, my God. I mean, we knew this guy could shoot, but this guy can really freaking shoot. Is that. I mean, you have him there. Obviously this is all tentative. No one knows what's going to happen, but he seems to be a name that I just hear more good stuff at about as we come closer to the draft.
- [76:09]
Kyle Mann
Yeah, I mean, in the basketball sense, they could just straight up take him there. It's interesting that the three guys who were sort of in this little mush after Dylan and Cooper all kind of have similar traits with the movement shooting. And they all have pretty decent size. You know, Ace obviously is the biggest of the three, Khan has a different, a little bit of a different body type. I know you and I talked about him initially about how strange his body type is for being a movement shooter that he also has that getting. I made a video that I put on social the other day about.
- [76:36]
Zach Lowe
Oh, it was, it was, it was fire, as the kids say. As a con knipple fanboy, I was like, yeah, give me, give me more of the con highlights.
- [76:43]
Kyle Mann
Yeah, the, the two footedness. But I, but throughout the cycle with con, we can speak to the differences between them broadly later here. But I mean, he just, he has more, I think on ball upside. I've maintained that throughout than he, than he even showed at Duke. He showed it at times. We talked about that in a video. But with Trey, Trey just has the, the dribble to shoot thing is something that I think people underestimate. The, the synergy between the being able to harness. You know, Steph obviously is the master of this. I know that. You know, down at Miami's, I'm blanking on his name. They, his shooting code. Their shooting coach has done a lot about the ability to just kind of harness your movement off the dribble and shoot effortlessly. And if you watch Trey, he's a very smooth mover and he just. Rob Fodor, that's his name. But Trey, I've seen people compare him on. Some of my buddies on draft Twitter was saying that he has some like late Ray Allen kind of things going on in his game. I'm always very careful with the Ray Zach. I know we, you know, I, I watched Ray Allen as a kid in the 90s there. If you're going to say Ray Allen, you have to, you have to name the vintage.
- [77:50]
Zach Lowe
You shouldn't comp Cedric Coward to a hybrid of Kawhi Leonard and Magic Johnson. That might be like a little premature.
- [77:56]
Kyle Mann
I always try to be careful with that because you'll read some mock drafts in the OR draft guides and like late into the 20s, you'll see they'd be like, at the 20th pick, this guy's like Andre Iguodala. It's just like, if he's like Iguodala, he's probably higher than 20. But yeah, I mean, Trey just has that. I was gonna say is people comparing him to Rayon. I'm always careful about that. I'm like just late stage Rayon. He doesn't quite have the off the bounce, get to the basket thing. And that's the main concern with him is he's a little, He's a little wispy. When he takes contact. He can kind of die on screens. He's got kind of a higher center of gravity, but boy, you could unleash him tomorrow on a good team and he's going to make shots like, it's just he's an elite movement shooter and I think that's something he has even over con, is that his quickness laterally and dribble to shoot motion is, is the top of this class.
- [78:43]
Zach Lowe
So just to review for people, Philly at three, Charlotte at four, Utah at five, Washington at six, Pelicans at seven, Brooklyn at eight. That three through eight is just. I don't even think the teams in there really know what's happening or who's going to fall to them or who's going to be there, which, which mitigates against, I think slightly at least any. Like there's been all this trade up, trade now. And I don't know why I would trade up if. Unless I were on the clock. And I absolutely knew for sure that the only way I can get this particular guy that I really, really like better than these other guys, if there is even a guy that I really like better than the other guys, this is the only way I can get there is by moving up two spots. Right now these teams are like, I don't know, I might, I like this guy. He might be there at 6. I have no idea what's going on. And then it just feels like Toronto at 9 is waiting to catch whoever is left there that they like the best. And then Houston at 10 with the Phoenix picket. Obviously that's going to be in play in a lot of different scenarios. Ace Bailey is the headliner of the week. You have him going fourth to Charlotte. Jonathan Gavoni, my old buddy at ESPN has him going sixth to Washington. He has worked out for. For nobody, correct?
- [79:55]
Kyle Mann
As I understand it. Yeah, nobody. It's. He, he's the pivot point though. You're talking about, like, would I trade up or down? I, I know I have, you know, in the basketball sense. I've had Trey move up there because of some of the good, positive stuff that I heard about him. Interview wise, there were worries about him at Texas and he's. He's. Like I've said here and there is. He's acquitted himself on those things. But Ace, I think if you, if we try to decode his behavior, which, you know, you do that at your own peril for any person who is that age. I'm always really careful. I try to Be. I've learned to be, I hope. But I mean, with Ace, it does seem like there's some force on the outer reaches of the galaxy whispering to him like, hey, we can give you the. There's a Palpatine voice. Whether it's Joe Dumars or whatever. He's talked a lot about the developmental Runway that he needs and he wants, you know, and that has been one of my worries with Philly is, is he going to have what he wants in that sense, and are you going to be drafting a problem if that's what he's going to be after and he's going to be role stubborn in that sense? Brooklyn and New Orleans seem to me like candidates to give him what he wants in that sense, because they were slated to pick there. Obviously, we had a really wild lottery. Maybe he got it in his mind that that's where he was going to go and get what he wanted. But for long story short, if I were Philly, I would just take Ace if I know that they want that specifically. I think our problems could align here. If it's New Orleans that thinks they can give him the space that they want, awesome. We want Herb Jones, we can. Our agendas are in sync here because either way, I think the asset is something that they need to. They need to take here.
- [81:29]
Zach Lowe
Whether if, just in that example alone, if you're New Orleans and that scenario unfolds, you have to like Ace Bailey so much more than whoever is there at three, whether it's Edgecomb Johnson fears on and on and on. Like, Herb Jones is really, really good and his contract is insanely good. Like, you have to. I just haven't heard any emphatic proof that this team, whatever team, likes this guy in this space so much more than everybody else that they're willing to pay that level of premium. Now, your point on Philly just taking Ace Bailey? If there's one GM who doesn't give a flying F U C K about whether you visited with him or left him eating bread at the restaurant, it's Daryl Morey. If he thinks you're the best guy, he's going to take you. The other thing about Philly and all this trade down, trade wherever, trade sideways is whatever they do in this draft, I will fall off my chair if they don't end up with a very high pick in the draft. All of this, like, trade down whatever they are not. I would be very surprised if they did anything that trades them out of the draft for veteran help, because they are very much operating it seems on a. Which I think is logical, we cannot run our team anymore on Joel Embiid's timeline. We have to run our team on Tyrese Maxey's timeline, on Jared McCain's timeline, on whoever we take in this draft timeline. So if we trade this pick, we're still going to have a pick somewhere in the top six, seven, whatever of the draft. The Ace Bailey stuff is. You mentioned voices from the universe. There are theories roiling around front offices that Ace Bailey has been promised by somebody in the 6, 7, 8 range. That's Washington, New Orleans, Brooklyn, and even rumblings. Not rumblings, conspiracy theories. Like, conspiracy bill level conspiracy theories. That there has been, in fact, a secret workout with one of those teams at some undisclosed location like Area 51 for workouts or something. I have no idea if any of that's true. When you posit that question to people who would know if it were true, there's just sort of like muffled laughter and silence and like, let's go on to the next topic. I have no idea what that means. You mentioned Brooklyn at 8. I mean, based on everything I've heard, and this is all this is disinformation season, I would be surprised if he got by the Washington, New Orleans double double pick at 6 and 7. But maybe nothing should surprise me. I don't know.
- [84:00]
Kyle Mann
I. I've heard six, seven is kind of the line there. But he's just interesting because if you look at his player type and you listen to what they're saying, they want Runway, they want reps. This is a guy who is not a proven ball handler yet. I thought Brooklyn was interesting because in my mind, I was like, is Adam Harrington still there because you got the dirt KD thing. I was like, that would be perfect. But he's not there anymore.
- [84:21]
Zach Lowe
Nope.
- [84:23]
Kyle Mann
He said maybe he should get him to be one of his. His trainers. But if you look at just his challenges, what's that going to look like you want? Is it. Is it that he wants to be. He obviously wants the ball in his hands. Is that going to be him operating in the slot? I don't. I don't think it's going to be that. I think it's going to be. He expects to be running ball screens. So it's like, what team is he going to be doing that with? New Orleans is going to. I mean, you got the Zion thing. I just can't see a scenario where there's going to be Runway for him to do that. If there's going to be enough studio Space for him to kind of move around. So I don't know who's. Brooklyn is possible. That's the one that just makes the most sense to me because I've said this over and over again in our guide is they're just a formless void. I have no clue what direction they're going, what they're going to, where they're going to end up. But I just. What he wants doesn't really. I'm not seeing it.
- [85:09]
Zach Lowe
So if they draft Ace Bailey and they resigned, Cam Thomas does, does. Do they need four basketballs to play at one time? If Ace Bailey wants this sort of like star, star driven Runway, that, that. By the way, I've heard the same thing. I've heard, and this isn't necessarily a bad thing, actually, that he wants a place where he's going to get to stretch his wings a little bit and test himself. And that's not Philly. And then you have, you know, you and I were talking about this offline yesterday, like that Charlotte, Utah double at 4 5. You have agents who look at those situations like, wildly differently. You, you have some agents who are like, I don't know if I want to have my guy next to LaMelo Ball. Like, I just don't know if that's a good, a good fit for us. And yet new ownership, new front office. That franchise is kind of doing everything else right. And I, I'm still kind of a lamelo ball semi believer, but.
- [86:00]
Kyle Mann
Me too. That's good to know. Zach. I was, I was like holding my breath because I was like, I kind of like Lamello. I always, I've always defended him, man. I, I think he can get off the ball like a, like a super processor. He just needs the right teammates to do it. Sorry, I interrupted you.
- [86:14]
Zach Lowe
No, no, that's okay. And, and you, but you have, you definitely have some caution there. And then Utah people don't quite know what to make of it because you would think an Ace Bailey would look at that and say, well, that's a place where I'm going to have Runway. Like, I. They're going to give me the ball. But it's also a place where there's Keante George and until further notice, Colin Sexton and Jordan Clarkson and Isaiah Collier and all these guys who handle the ball. And yet it's sort of a morass of unproven prospects. And it's also Utah. And so there are some people who are like, that's not a great situation. This is just an interesting mix of teams. And Then the New Orleans situation, obviously, is just a cluster of epic proportions. It's just an interesting mix of teams that representatives and rival front office executives, and they just kind of don't know what to make of, like, are these good fits, bad fits? They're just weird. It's a bunch of weird situations before you even get to Washington, which is just like, hey, come in here and we're. We're like the full on rebuild. Take the ball, like, whatever you want to do.
- [87:11]
Kyle Mann
The. The tech boom out in Salt Lake City, not moving people's needles. That doesn't excite anybody, huh? I don't know. There's some investment opportunities. Talk Ace into it on that front. But yeah, I mean, the Wizards, they really needed to get higher in this draft, and it was a huge setback for them not to get up there because they had. They. I think they have been hitting on their pick like, I like Bub Carrington. Bilal Kulbali, I think is going to work at some point whether or not he becomes a playmaker. Parisian Pippin, I've called him. Of course, if he's not a playmaker, I can't call him that anymore. Alex Saar, I mean, he's interesting. I was skeptical. Yeah, I just think if they could. If they could have a scenario where a tray falls to them, that would be incredible for them. But they just. They're in. They're in need of like a separating skill to sort of like make it all makes sense. But Utah, same thing. You know, you mentioned the. The problem with those guards that you. You listed out there. It's like Keonte Keante can pass the ball here and flourishes. Colin Sexton, Jordan Clarkson, it's. All these guys have a similar tilt to their game. And if you think about adding an Ace to that, I wanted to. I. Assisted usage is one of my favorite stats, and I kind of use it to kind of gauge feel in a lot of cases. There are exceptions. His was really, really low. He was in the 6 percentile of all college bass. So Ace, when it went into Ace, it was not coming back out. He was shooting the fucking ball. So it's the other. The counter to that is that he really can shoot the ball. He's an incredibly gifted shot creator. So if you're somebody in that, you know, 5 to 10 range, you probably would be, you know, elated if you could get a chance to get a hands on a talent like that.
- [88:47]
Zach Lowe
So I think the. Just the difference in the mock drafts that I trust and like the most is so revealing. Like, you have the Wizards taking Derek Queen at 6, and you have Malawatch falling all the way to 12 at Chicago, where the consent, not consensus, where there's been all this. Well, if he's there for Toronto, Toronto's going to take him at nine, but he's not going to be there. What went into the thinking on The Queen? Malawatch, 6 and 12? Because those are. That's interesting. And it's definitely different. You have the Raptors taking Carter Bryant, which, by the way, I've heard a lot of Carter Bryant talk in the last week, too. I don't know much about him. I know he didn't play much in college, but he has a. He's a type. He's a type that people like.
- [89:26]
Kyle Mann
Yeah, I mean, the Queen and the model Watch picks were the ones I heard the most about, I can tell you that.
- [89:31]
Zach Lowe
Oh, yeah? What'd you hear, like, from NBA people?
- [89:33]
Kyle Mann
No, just the fans. I mean, they. I think that talking about the Wizards getting a piece that could help them make sense. I guess what you're kind of looking at there is, you know, Queen, I think, has the upside to be a hub. I guess you kind of, you know, you bring spatial questions into your. Into your organization that, you know, could be tough to solve. But I think if we're going to operate on the logic that we just had, where it's like, you know, Washington needs something to sort of give them a roadmap. As I always say, Queen is somebody that could do that. I know that people were a little bit pinching their nose at his combine measurements, but my counter to that has always just been, have you been paying attention the whole time? This guy isn't that type of guy. He's not going to. He's not. You're not going to look at a spreadsheet and be like, there's the guy we want. Derek Queen's not that type of player because he just has intangibles that. And he has an IQ about him that. That is going to help him make sense there. Malawatch, I mean, it's pretty unlikely he drops that far. You hear a lot of things. The Raptors have been sort of tied to him from the beginning, and I still kind of expect that to happen. I expect the draft to be a little more chalky than the. Some of the hotter takes I had in my most recent one.
- [90:42]
Zach Lowe
The Wizards. You know, it's interesting, though, the way you frame that something that would make the Wizards make sense. Like, I don't think they're going to take Derek Queen. But they also have, they have so many young guys. And I like Keyshawn George as well. Like, I think they did a nice job in the draft last year. And I like Koulibaly Parisian Pippen. I, I love Scottie Pippen so much that I, it's like there's been a lot of Pippen Pippin. I didn't mind, by the way. I didn't mind the J Dub Pippin stuff in it. Like Bill, Bill was like, let's go easy on the J Dub Pippin stuff. Like, I think that dude is that good. And I like that Pippen said I, I, he like, I think he should be a better offensive player than Scotty Pippen was like at his peak. Maybe not quite the playmaker, but a better score. But anyway, that's neither here nor there. The Wizards at six, like Ace Bailey is the big swing guy and, and possibly like the big miss guy. And you just wonder like in theory they should be a team that takes the big swing. Like David's like, what do they have to lose? What they have to lose is, is like you could just take, you could get a. There are guys who are more likely to just be like a B level NBA starter rotation player and they could also use that. So I'm, I'm just interested to see what kind of risk appetite their front office has because it's not a no brainer to me that their risk appetite is just moonshot, moonshot, moonshot. I don't know what they're going to do, but I think the Derek Queen in a way you framed it is actually a really good way into like how should they be thinking or how will they be thinking about this pick?
- [92:21]
Kyle Mann
Yeah, I just see a bunch of, I see a bunch of parts that need some kind of, you know, adhesive agent in between it to kind of pull it together. Yeah, the Ace, the Ace thing with, with, with Jordan Poole dancing next to him, I could see some problems going with that. The thing for me is just you need to have a conscientiousness about yourself whenever you're talking about your own development, I think. And you can get derailed a little bit with your ambition to do this or that. Granted, there are all these financial incentives tied to those things in the NBA, so they're kind of inextricable at some point. Guys want the ball because they want the accolades. They want to make the most money, get the biggest contracts. But sometimes I think you need to be kind of safe from yourself in a way. And I Think that like Michael Porter Jr. Has been brought up a lot and I think the fact that his challenges just sort of hitched to Jokic in such a great way that think it's helped him have a great career. And I kind of think that Ace needs to have that mindset. It doesn't mean that the doors are closed to those other kind of avenues. But I don't know, I always think of it that you watch 100 foot wave. Do you watch that documentary at all, the HBO thing? Well, to climb some of these bigger waves, some of these surfers who can't quite get to the heights that they want to get to, they need a jet ski to tow them and sort of slingshot them onto the high part of the wave. And there are some players that just don't have the ball skills to get themselves to those heights. And I think Michael, Michael Porter Jr. Is one of those guys. And I always think that he needs Nicole Jokic to tow him up onto the wave to get to the high points that he couldn't get to by himself on a team by himself because he's not efficient enough to do it. So I just think if you listen to some players. Baron J. Is another guy that gets talked about a lot in this draft. The French kid who's very. Who measured enormous.
- [94:01]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, tell me about him. Because I. His name has come up in conversations. I mean, just like as guys, hey, watch for this guy. He's the best shot blocker in the draft. He might be moving up a little bit. He might be a little better than people think. Tell me about him.
- [94:14]
Kyle Mann
He's, you know, he's very young. He started playing basketball in the last five years. I believe people, I, it's. I haven't confirmed this, but people think he grew 2 inches in the past year based on what we had heard in the past. And now he measured enormous. Six' eleven, barefoot, as I said, seven foot four and a half. I think wingspan. He's very raw and very young. But if you watch his basic, you know, defensive instincts, he's always having an impact on the play. And from what I've gleaned from people who are close to his, you know, workouts and developments and things like that, he's. He's a sponge. Like, he's a bright kid. Doesn't have any kind of. You just run into issues sometimes where guys have this ambition to be like, I'm going to be. I'm going to be a three point shooter. Those things are great, but they can also. You're Never, maybe you're never going to quite get there, and your pursuit of that is going to cause issues where if you. Whereas you look at it like a Mitchell Robinson, Mitchell Robinson is just like, I'm just going to generate possessions. I'm going to get the ball. I'm going to be a lob threat. I'm simple, but I'm effective. And I think Baron J has a chance. And I hear some of the teams in the okc, San Antonio, even Atlanta Range really like him. He could climb that high.
- [95:18]
Zach Lowe
So Aaron Gordon is my poster guy for this entire idea of ambition versus reality versus fit. And obviously, he's also landed next to Nikola Jokic, who makes the best fit out of everybody. But, you know, I think it's very natural for a player who's been a star their whole life with the ball to want to come in the NBA and do the same thing. And so I never faulted Aaron Gordon when he was in Orlando for being like, I'm the best guy on the team in my mind. Give. Give me the ball. Like, who am I going to pass it to here? Who's better than me? I didn't even fault, like, Frank Vogel when he was the coach, went on the record with me and said, we're going to run some Paul George offense through Aaron Gordon. And I was like, oh, I don't think that's going to work. But the one thing that I think that ambition overlooks and that Aaron Gordon has figured out and I would. I would. I was talking about this four years before you went to Denver is, look, the money and the glory will come to you if you just put up 16, 6 and 5 and play elite defense on a winning team like that. All the stuff that you think can only. OG Anunoby is another example of this. All the stuff that you think you can only get when you have the ball in your hands all the time. Now, there's ego stuff, and that's. That's unattached to any objective measure like money or stats or anything. And maybe that's all you care about. But glory, fame and money will come to you if you just tap into your inner Draymond Green. You don't have to average 25 point now. Draymond's a genius. He's a one and one. There is no Draymond Green archetype. He's a unicorn in his passing vision and size and defense. But. And Aaron Gordon got championships, fame, huge amounts of money when he became the guy that he should become. OG Anunoby is making like $40 million a year and is probably in his mind, like, I still kind of don't have the ball enough. Is this really happy? Yeah. It's like, dude, you have the. You're in New York, people are chanting your name everywhere you go, and you're making $40 million a year. That's my only thing with the ambition, guys. Ego is one thing. Testing your skills is one thing. I respect that. But just know that all the other stuff, the accolades is coming around the corner if you win playing a more quote unquote, limited style.
- [97:33]
Kyle Mann
Yeah, cutters aren't going to get Nike commercials. Right. I mean, that's just kind of. But it's just having the. Having the self awareness and how do you. How do you put yourself in the position to have to. To. To get that or, you know, good people around you? I think Knipple is a good example of a kid who absolutely can do some on ball stuff. But, you know, you watched. There was never any. He expanded when Duke needed him to do it, but you didn't see any. Any problem. You didn't see any kind of dissonance between him and Cooper. That was. That was an issue for them because he understood and he had people around him that understood basketball. And you just got to get that stuff in your ear early on. Whereas, you know, there are some cases where guys just don't adjust well to that. I appreciate that you're. You're protective of the flames of some of these comps with the, you know, Scotty Pippen and Draymond and things. It's absolutely true. I mean, Draymond with Murray Boyles. People are that. This is a guy that I think you would like. Zach. I don't know how much I've watched.
- [98:24]
Zach Lowe
Tape on him because people. Enough people have said, like, this is an interesting dude. Switchies, good iq, long, can block shots, can pass. All that's. All that's. But like, the, the, like, what is he, six, six, six, seven? Like, he's. He's that range, right?
- [98:37]
Kyle Mann
Yeah, yeah, he's. He's a smaller guy, but he's just a. He thinks the defensive side of the ball offensive too, but he has some issues that we can hit on. But I mean, defensively, he just. He sees the game, the chessboard in real time, anticipates things. And he. I called him the detonator in a video I made where I was just. He just disrupts and he sees what's coming and he's. He's frustrating for. And I'm gonna I'm gonna just bury the, the leader. I'm gonna spoil it, but I'm gonna moc just because the offensive challenges that he has, you know, he likes to play inside the arc. He's a. Maybe sometimes I'll shoot it if I'm open. Three point shooter. Didn't shoot many of them, didn't make the ones that he took. But he is clever around the rim. He's a good screener. He's a very good passer. Like he, he's one of those. Bill and I always talk about the, the Kodak brains who see the plot, who see the floor, but just before they catch it and know where it needs to go instantly he's that type of passer. So I, if somebody could give him the space. There's a word again Runway to figure those things out. I think he, he's defensively smart enough and impactful enough to, to be an NBA player.
- [99:42]
Zach Lowe
Well, look, anytime there's like a next Draymond Green or Draymond Green like player in the draft, Grant Williams is the first example that just popped into my head right now is like, you people, you have to understand like this dude is a historically great passer for his size and body type on the move in space. Like if you're just a B passer, you're just already out of being the next Draymond Green. This dude is a historically great defensive player, the best defensive player of his era. An unprecedented almost combination of switchability and at his peak rim protection and size to jostle with the biggest guys. Like, if you're just B at anticipation and reading the offense and B at rotating to protect the rim, like you're not in the conversation. Like the difference between B and historically great is just. And so like a guy like Grant Williams, like, it's cool he can do stuff. And like Mobo in Toronto had that similar build. We talked about this. Like, it's cool he can do stuff. It's just so far away. By the way, OKC, OKC has 15 guys under contract already next year. Now two of those guys are team options in AJ Mitchell and Big Jalen Williams. You can only have 15 guys before you start going to two ways. It's like, I don't know how this is going to shake out if they're going to try to convince someone to take a two way or whatever. But there's. This is like the third consecutive year where OKC is going to have to just lose guys in some may have to just lose guys and who is going to get plucked away from them. Just get. Before you go, give me another guy we haven't talked about or another rumbling we haven't talked about or just something that's been in your brain that's like, yeah, it's kind of interesting off the beaten path. We haven't even said Edgecomb's name.
- [101:23]
Kyle Mann
Yeah, Edgecomb. Everything I hear about Edgecomb in terms of his makeup, as, you know, his personality as a player is that he's going to be willing. I like his fit in Charlotte. Everything that I hear is, is positive that they like him over there. The thing with Ace in Charlotte, I'm not trying to get back just for comparison for BJ's sake. I think that, I think that Vijay would fit really well between Miller and Lamelo. I, I think that you, you can keep those big playmaking, wing sized, you know, handlers on the floor and then have somebody that can cross, switch and guard at the point of attack and make open shots. And he's a pretty good passer in the seams, in the creases, wherever where he's going to be catching the ball. And then if you like the things that you start to see, you can start to have conversations about the next phase. Like, okay, we, we like this. Now we can kind of, you know, adjust. So if they get him, I think that would be a big win for Charlotte.
- [102:14]
Zach Lowe
I think there is ambition for him within his camp. Edgecomb of, oh, he can do a lot with the ball. Like, like we want him to be in a place or we'd think he can be, you know, a lead, a lead ball handler and all these places, Philly and Charlotte, he will not get to do that right off the bat. But everything I've heard about him and seen about him and heard about him from teams, he's the one guy like, I will be really surprised if he's on the board after four. He just seems like a tailor made fit for any of these teams. All the intel on him as a character, person, whatever is really good. Like, I, I would be. I mean, again, it's all a mess. I would be surprised if he's there at 5.
- [102:57]
Kyle Mann
I think if you do the high, middle, low outcome thing and you say, all right, let's say that Harper's career plays out a hundred times, I'd be clear. I love Dylan Harper. I think he's going to be a great player. But if you say, okay, maybe if he never quite solves the inefficiency thing, like let's say he's not an efficient dribble, pull up shooter ever in his career. Maybe the passing is, doesn't quite go from really good to great at any point. And he's just a nice secondary tertiary player on like a playoff team. And then let's say that Vijay does become an elite defender. Vijay does become an elite floor spacer in his, out, in his high outcome, even if he's not a star, is that he's, he's somebody that's a two way player on like a title level team. Yeah. There's a, there's a world where, you know, 10 years from now we're talking about this, we're like, BJ, he's one of those guys that we could be like, man, that was just a winning player right in front of our faces and we, and we kind of didn't give him enough credit. I mean that's possible. It's very possible.
- [103:50]
Zach Lowe
It's gonna be a fun draft, fun two day event. Now we got two days of this.
- [103:55]
Kyle Mann
Do you think it should be two days? I feel like we should go back. I love the chaos of night one. I don't know, people are getting groggy. It's just like what's going on? Because, because they're not the, the second round's not even in the same. The players aren't coming up. I was joking with tape Frazier. I was like, it's in like a Marriott Ballroom. I don't look, can we. Do you like two nights? I like one night. I want to go back.
- [104:13]
Zach Lowe
You know, I. The NBA has had a lot of ideas and they've walked back a lot of those ideas when they've realized like, okay, this thing didn't work. Like remember the NBA awards show? They're going to make like the NBA Oscars and that, that was like, okay, so tried that one.
- [104:27]
Kyle Mann
Got enough data on that? Yeah.
- [104:29]
Zach Lowe
Last year you had the brawny thing which was going to carry you through the second round and, and flip fell to the second round. So there was a little drama there. I don't know. Like it's, it's not like the second, it's not like the draft is long. When it's, when it's one night, it's 60 picks, it's over by midnight or 12:30. Now you get a little more time for second round picks, a little more time to make trades. I don't hate it. I just never. We'll, we'll see if, we'll see if the interest level sustains, you know, for TV viewership in the second round this year. I'M a little skeptical, but I don't mind it. All right. Anything else you want to get to any. Any other guy you want to shout out for 30 seconds or anything like that?
- [105:07]
Kyle Mann
I mean, I. I don't know who you've seen or. I mean, I can just kind of comment on the guys I'm higher on or lower than.
- [105:13]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, just say name. Just say higher on this guy. Lower on this guy. Go.
- [105:17]
Kyle Mann
I'm lower on Noah Singh than consensus. I'm a little more worried about the. His ambitions to do the things that we were talking about. That's kind of why I did a poll where people were like, what are you talking about? Sng over Behringer could live to be wrong on that one. I think that Walter Clayton Jr. Is a great fit with the Miami Heat. I was talking with you about that. I think that that would be an awesome pick for them. Could come in and just be. I don't know that he'll. Defensively, it could be a little bit of an issue playing him with hero, but you could stagger them and he could give you a little late rotation pop probably from moment one. And then, let's see. I love Noah Penda. Will Riley is going to be an interesting guy to see how people read into his game because he was a reclass. Yeah. I mean, Thomas Sorber probably going to be going to OKC or the Spurs. Yeah, that's. I don't know. Anybody else you. Are you curious about? I'm trying to.
- [106:06]
Zach Lowe
No. No.
- [106:06]
Kyle Mann
We throw each other a lot.
- [106:08]
Zach Lowe
I'm ready. I think this is going to be a fun draft. I've had time to actually look at the players. Everyone's come to New York, my neck of the woods next week. All the lottery guys, the green room guys are coming with their agents and it's going to be crawling with fun people to talk to. So I will be skulking around various hotel lobbies in the city for a couple of days talking to people. It's gonna be fun. Kyle Mann, are you gonna update one more time before the draft? What's the plan?
- [106:32]
Kyle Mann
Finishing it up right now. Yep. Got a new one coming. Coming soon. ASAP.
- [106:36]
Zach Lowe
Ringer.com A new mock draft. Kyle Mann does this better than anybody. Thank you for your time. Love the Lithuania hoops T shirt. And it's great to see you, my man.
- [106:44]
Kyle Mann
You, too. Thanks for having me.
- [106:45]
Zach Lowe
All right, that's it for the Zach Lowe show today. We think it's Friday. Kevin Durant still hasn't gotten traded yet. We'll maybe be back if he's traded over the weekend, who knows. And then there is game seven of the NBA Finals on Sunday. We'll be back on Monday at some point to talk about that. Thank you to Jesse, Chris and Isaiah on production. You guys are awesome and we will see you next week. Maybe this weekend. Maybe next week with a new NBA champion. Who the hell knows? On the Zach Low Show. Thanks for listening Everybody. Must be 21 and over and present in select states. For Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over and President D.C. gambling problem called 1-800- gambler or visit FanDuel.com RG call 1-887-89-7777 or is it ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or is it mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland? Hope is here. Visit Gambling Helpline ma.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 Sport in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOP E N Y or text Hope NY in New York.