← The Zach Lowe Show
The Zach Lowe Show
What Giannis’s Return Means for the Bottom of the East. Plus, Trouble in Denver?
01:36:04
Loading summary
Transcript139 lines
- [00:00]
A
This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. When you pull off a superior play, like blocking a winning shot to push the game into overtime, it feels good. It even gives you shivers sometimes. All the best moments are served ice cold like that. Just like Michelob Ultra, the official beer partner of the NBA, Ultra is a superior light beer with only 95 calories and a crisp, refreshing taste. And you know what makes it even more superior? Michelob Ultra is giving fans like you the chance to win some incredible prizes, including courtside seat tickets. Michelob Ultra Superior is worth playing for. Enter now@michelob ultra.com Courtside Michelob Ultra Courtside 25 to 26. No purchase necessary. Open U.S. residence 21 or over. Begins on October 1, 2025 and ends on June 30, 2026. Multiple entry periods. See official rules@michelob ultra.com courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes and. Coming up on the Zach Lowe show, the great Mo Decile is here and we're going to start in the East. Giannis Antentokounmpo made his long awaited return to the Bucs lineup and definitely saved their season. And the Bucks are headed for a play. No, they got destroyed at home by the Boston Celtics falling three games behind the number 10 seed Charlotte Hornets in the loss column. We're going to talk about how Giannis looked the rest of the team. Doc Rivers is making a lot of changes to the rotation. Are those smart? Are they not smart? Is there any hope for the Bucks and is is there a chance Giannis is actually going to play through the rest of this regular season or will they fall so far behind that that changes? And then we go through six to 11 rapid fire Phillies hold on. The number six seed is getting a little tenuous. We go rapid fire through Philly, Orlando, Miami, Atlanta, Charlotte, Milwaukee. Which three of these teams are actually going to make the playoffs? And then we move west. The Nuggets. They squeaked one out in Utah last night. Jokic was just falling on people and getting calls overturned and. But they snuck it out against a team that's not trying to win. Great game by Jamal Murray. But the Nuggets 5 and 8 in their last 13. Cam Johnson sat out last night with an injury. Is this just the year that it's not going to happen for them? Are they having it? It's not our year kind of year. We're going to dive into that and sort of the bigger picture in the West. The Thunder Bill called them villains. Is that fair talk a little bit more about the Lou Dort thing. And then Darius Garland made his return to the Clippers last night and actually big win for them over Golden State. We're going to talk about how he looked and what the tank landscape is with the picks that Atlanta owns from New Orleans and the Clippers own from Indiana. What are their chances of keeping them? What's going on with the tanking discussion? Is this still happening? All that coming up on the Zach Lowe show with Mo De Kill. The Zach Lowe show is brought to you by FanDuel. Things are really heating up on the court and FanDuel is the best place to bet on all the epic matchups during the NBA season. Build a same game parlay for a shot at a bigger payout or or try live betting and jump into the action after tip off. And don't forget, with FanDuel you get paid instantly when you win. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app now and play your game 21 over in President of Select States 18 or over in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatinc. Welcome to the Zach Lowe Show. We're entering the fourth quarter of the NBA season. Giannis is back. Darius Garland debuted. Steph Curry is still out. Zach Edie had surgery. Trey Young got ejected from the sidelines of a Wizards game and he's apparently actually going to play for the Washington Wizards. I'll set the over under at Trey Young games played for the season at five and a half. The great Mo dequil is here to to help sort out all of this stuff. Mo, how you doing?
- [03:52]
B
I'm doing great. Is that getting thrown out before you've actually appeared in a game is pretty impressive?
- [04:00]
A
I think, honestly, you know, when they said he was going to come back and start playing on I think Thursday, their next game is maybe I was thinking, boy, playing basketball, it's a good way to get injured. It's a good way to get injured and miss some. Like a little nagging injury could pop up really easily if you play basketball. I'm setting the over under at five and a half games. I'm expecting a little window into what this could look like with Trey Young. Some extension murmurs and a sore ankle or some kind of oblique muscle or something to take him out for the rest of the season.
- [04:32]
B
But back spasms, back spasms, back spasms.
- [04:35]
A
That's right. Lower body dnp. Lower body. Mo Giannis came back last night and this was one of the big simmering stories in the NBA is when will he come back? Can the Bucks sneak into the play in tournament? If so, can they, with the best player in the conference, sneak into the playoffs? If so, could they scare a team in round one? If so, could they actually get to round two? If so, could they? It's just so many ifs that people just kind of got carried away by the possibility of Giannis sneaking the Bucs into the play in. That would be nice. It would be a feather in the cap. They would probably be at least competitive, if not favored over the glut of mediocrities that are currently in the playing tournament, not including the Charlotte Hornets. Charlotte, you have advanced past mediocre status even though your record is still mediocre. You're above this, you're floating above the mediocrities, but there's such a big gap between that and making any real noise. And then Giannis comes back last night 7 of 18 and the Bucs lose a disastrous game to the Celtics. Without Jaylen Brown, still without Jason Tatum, with without Nemikeda. They get absolutely boat raced at home and they are now three games behind Charlotte and Atlanta in the lost column for the vaunted number 10 seed they play. Four of their next six games are against Orlando, Atlanta and Miami. They have a chance to win the tiebreakers still against Orlando, Miami, Atlanta, and they've already won it against Charlotte. So I think in the next 10 days we're going to know if this is anything alive for the Bucks and if it's not, even if they go.500 in those games, if they don't make real progress up the standings and up to tiebreakers. I could see Giannis getting shut down and the Bucks deciding we got to get this lottery pick as increase our chances to get a high pick as much as possible. We get the least of our pick and Pelicans pick, the better one goes to Atlanta. I thought Giannis looked okay last night. 7 of 18, not great. He had a couple of explosive dunks when he got a running start. This may be confirmation bias. Mo, I don't know what you saw. I didn't think his vertical lift was there in the same way it usually is, particularly when he was planning off the right leg, which is the calf injury, that he didn't look as above the rim explosive to me particularly. We're so used to him emerging from a crowd of bodies like a superhero under the rim and rising up and dunking. I didn't see that last night and I Got a couple of texts from people who are watching the game, scouts on other teams and stuff, and their response was, he looked okay, but why are they playing him? What is the point of this? The risk is catastrophic. And that's why I'm thinking if they don't do well in the next 10 days, I think this could go the other way real fast in terms of them shutting them down. But maybe, again, I'm open to. Maybe this is just me seeing, looking for something and then seeing something that actually wasn't there.
- [07:28]
B
No, it was there. There's. There's. I don't think there's a way to argue it. I don't know if some of it might be rust, if it's more just, hey, it's. He's. He's been out a long time, needs to kind of get his wind back. But I'll say this, did not feel his presence really defensively, which was a good.
- [07:44]
A
That's a great point. I thought his defense was meandering to absent by his standards, by his pretty lofty standards.
- [07:51]
B
And this was a game they need, they need every game if they're going to try to make this play in race on a night when the Celtics rest everybody. Like, you can't. You gotta go get this game. And this game was not very competitive, besides a small spurt in the beginning of the third quarter where they cut it to, I think, nine. It was a massive blowout by the time the third quarter ended. And when you looked at Giannis in particular, there were moments, like you said, like he had a couple drives down the lane, you know, and got dunks and stuff. But there were also times where he drove and you could just see the lift not there. And he missed layups that would normally be dunks or dunk attempts and that would get him to the free throw line. I think those were the things I kind of saw. You know, the. The good news is you did see the gravity of him. The Bucks did get better looks. They didn't make a lot of them, but they did get better looks when he had the ball and, you know, the doubles are coming and things like that. But that overall for him, that was just like an okay game by, by Giannis's standards of where he, he plays at. And offensively was just okay and yeah, defensively just was non existent.
- [08:55]
A
Yeah, he had one offensive rebound put back attempt in the first quarter, like in the right dunker spot where he went up with his left hand planting off his right foot. I went back and watched it and he kind of couldn't get the ball over the rim. Now he was in traffic and I think he got fouled. I can't remember, but it struck me immediately as the play, like, that's a dunk most of the time. And yeah, look, the team obviously makes more sense around Giannis. It makes no sense without him. Although they held the fort okay in the 15 games he missed. I think they were eight and seven. They had a couple of good wins recently against Orlando and Miami, big wins for their tiebreak purposes. And then they beat like the Zombie Thunder and the Zombie Cavs. But you gotta beat the Zombies, and they're the Zombies. Bucks without Giannis. But, you know, 60 whatever games, 50, whatever games into the season. We saw Kuzma get benched. We saw Cam Thomas get semi benched in the second half, didn't play very much. We saw the Bucks go super big with Portis Sims and Turner and Portis Giannis and Turner and like lineups that. The kind of lineups they had gradually moved away from with Giannis is like, I guess the three, three and a half something Usman Jeng started. Ryan Rollins came off the bench. I understand, like the Rollins, AJ Green, Kevin Porter Jr combo is kind of small one to three. Like there's no true three. Almost defensively at least AJ Green's close in that group, but less Ryan Rollins just doesn't seem like a good choice to me. And it's just like they're still just kind of figuring out what, if anything, this team is. And like, Sims has been really good. I thought he was decent again last night, passing, switching, moving his feet. And that just highlights how unimpactful Miles Turner has been the entire season. And therefore, what a potential disaster. Ditch. They have dug themselves with this stretch Dame Lillard and signed Miles Turner with cap space. Double whammy. And look, they're three games back and there's always a shot with Giannis, but last night was like a super dispiriting loss. And by the way, also, and I don't want this to be taken as a slight to Jaylen Brown, who I have firmly entrenched, firmly entrenched on my second team all NBA ballot, meaning I think he has been somewhere between the 6th and 10th best player in the NBA this season. Oh, wow, the slander on Jaylen Brown. This was another game that that kind of chips away at, like, Jaylen Brown's been making do with nothing around him. Like, the Celtics have been awesome with Jalen Brown off the floor the entire season. That is not in any way a slam on him. It's just this idea that while he's carrying a bunch of nothing to all these wins just has never really been true. And last night Derek White showed out Baylor Shireman has been awesome attacking closeouts. Peyton Pritchard's been great the whole season. Hugo Gonzalez just, you can't even keep him off the glass and he's making open threes. This is just a professional hard playing, super smart mistake free basketball team. And Joe Missoula at the three quarter mark is my coach of the year. Yeah.
- [11:49]
B
Kind of has to be at this point, I think. You know, I know there are going to be talks of should have been, should be J.B. bickerstaff and he probably should have gotten it last year or whatnot. And so we should get it this year and things like that. But when you watch what Missoula has done with the squad, it's impressive. And they came out with full force. They didn't come out with the attitude of like, we don't know Brown no, Pritchard no Keita, we're whatever, we're kind of throwing this game away. They came out with like, no, we're going to beat these guys. And they beat them soundly. And you know, I loved watching Gonzalez on the floor. Like he was guarding Giannis, he was all over the place. Like I love the way he played in this game last night. So I mean, yeah, I know it's kind of a tangent of our discussion, but yeah, I don't see how Missoul is not, you know, you know, if he's not one, he's definitely two in coach of the year.
- [12:36]
A
Hugo Gonzalez, the flying llama. That's what I'm calling him from now on. The first of these Bucks games, by the way. Bucks versus Hawks Wednesday the Bucks lead the the season series 1 0. They have two games left. So like the urgency starts now. They play Orlando on Sunday, Miami two days or four days after that, and Atlanta two days after that. So we're. And then if it just. I could definitely see just Giannis this like shut it down. And by the way, the. To the people asking why is he playing? This is a too risky. They have nothing at stake. My assumption based on everything Giannis has said publicly, everything Doc Rivers has said publicly, everything I've heard privately is he's playing because he wants to play and the Bucks are going to do what their superstar player wants them to do. And you know, in this as we're bemoaning, tanking and guys sitting out and load management. I'm not going to sit here and like hammer the bucks for playing Giannis now. If he continues to look, eh. And unexplosive and the losses pile up, then you, then it becomes a different decision. Once the standings make the decision for you, it becomes a kind of a different conversation.
- [13:44]
B
Much easier conversation at that point because especially if he continues to look, excuse me, if he continues to look like this where it's, it's. This wasn't. This was kind of like Giannis light yesterday in the game we saw. And I don't. If he, if he continues to look like that and it's, you know, his, his calf is kind of hindering him and things like that and they don't have anything to play for. There's absolutely zero reason to play and it doesn't even matter of. Doesn't matter where he's going to play next year could even be in Milwaukee. But like you can't risk next year when you have nothing to play for now in, in that sense, if you're. Once you're out of it and like you said, we'll know in 10 days by next Saturday, I think is when they play the Hawks, we'll kind of know if they're in the mix or not.
- [14:26]
A
You talking about Jonathan Kaminga's Atlanta Hawks?
- [14:31]
B
He's been on a tear.
- [14:34]
A
Let's see when they play a real team. But we're going to get to the Hawks because we're now we're going to go speed round six to 11 in the east with Milwaukee as 11 is. Is an interesting storyline partly because of Milwaukee, although they're now a semi distant 11 with 20 games to go, 22 games to go, whatever it is. But six is Philly at 33 and 27 and 10 is Charlotte at 30 and 31. So four games in the lost column separate six from 10. Philadelphia is only one game in the lost column, clinging to that number six seed over Orlando and two games in the loss column over Miami, who's eighth. For now we're going to park Toronto a little bit above this discussion. They're only two games ahead of Philly. But I haven't done as much on Toronto as I'd like and we're going to rectify that on Thursday. We're going to do a deep dive on the Raptors. For now, let's park them up here. Knowing, knowing the Raptors, they'll probably lose tonight. I think they play Minnesota and be right in this discussion. But this is an interesting Set of teams all flawed, all trending in different directions. A couple with different personnel decisions and trades and suspensions. Let's go rapid fire through them. In the order of the standings, the Philadelphia 76ers 33 and 27. A whopping plus 28 total points for the season. 13th in offense, 16th in defense. And that's going to be a theme. A lot of these teams are just straight up mediocrity is in the truest sense. They have won the tiebreaker with Orlando, who's right behind them. They have a massive game with Miami that will decide their tiebreaker with Miami. The Charlotte tiebreaker is still to be decided. They've lost the Atlanta tiebreaker and won the. The Bucks tiebreaker. They have lost four out of six. I'm sorry. They have lost four out of six out of the last 10. They're four and six in their last 10, but they have won three out of the last four, including a big win over Miami. Joel Embiid is out at least the next two games with an oblique strain is just I, you know, oblique. Just add it to the list. Like, I don't understand how all these random things keep happening to him. What. What have you seen from Miami, of. Of. Of Philadelphia? From Philadelphia of late.
- [16:44]
B
Yeah, I think kind of the. The thing that sort of concerns me is the size a little bit. Right. Like, Maxi's been awesome. Absolutely phenomenal. I heard you and Bill talking about it on, on Sunday with, you know, where he. Where he would rank in your all NBA teams and things like that. He's been phenomenal. But. And then, you know, Vijay Edgecombe has kind of hit a little bit of that rookie wall in that sense. And it's not as he's playing his ass off, but it's not as productive as it was, I think, to start the year. And I think we're kind of beginning to see sort of the talent disparity, I think, kind of catch up to them. We saw it in that, that Celtics game where, like, they were in it to the very end, but it was still not something like you could just. You never felt like Boston was going to lose this game, and I think that was a big one. And Keita had a monster night, and without Joel Embiid, you know, they really didn't have an answer for being able to stop him keeping the ball alive on the offensive glass and getting tippins and his activity and things like that. I felt like you're beginning to see kind of the talent disparity for them sort of hurt them and then when you look at their schedule, Zach, I go to Tankathon to see everybody's. This is my favorite part of the season because then I go to Tankathon and I get to see the remaining schedule and everybody's, you know, toughest opponents and whatnot. They. They have the 18th toughest schedule. So they're. They're pretty good in that sense. They got a lot of tankers on their schedule.
- [18:11]
A
The east, the east is magical in that there's really no difference in schedule quality between the toughest schedule in the east and the easiest schedule in the east because there's just a lot of mediocrity on the table. Like, Portland has a laughably easy schedule in the west and there's a little bit more diversity. But yeah, their schedule. And they're. They have played two more home games than road games. The Sixers, which every little margin matters at this time of year, especially when
- [18:33]
B
we're talking like season series or making sure you stay ahead. But they got the Pistons twice, they got the Thunder, they have the spurs twice, the Rockets, Wolves and Cavs. Like, that's a pretty tough group of games right there that they're going to have to win some of those battles right there as they go through if they're going to try to stay at in six or even by some, you know, catch Toronto, you know, and I think it's going to be really important for them. And no pg, we know, with the suspension. No, no Embiid for at least two games. And you know how it goes with Embiid, like, okay, but like, are we sure we're getting him back in two games? Are we sure we know what's going on? You know, I think when he's on the court, he's been really good for them lately, and I think he's been very helpful. But I just worry about them in terms of their size and everything that they have. And then when I just look at their talent on the roster and look at who they put out on the floor, they play their asses off. Bona has been great. Even though he went to a stupid college, it's, wow, where did he go?
- [19:31]
A
He go to ucla, right? That's UCLA slander from a USC guy. That was just. You slipped that right in there. You tried to keep going, Mo. You tried to slip it in and keep going. But I'm going to let the Bruin people know what just happened.
- [19:41]
B
You could let them know I live in Culver City, which is supposedly UCLA town, except I walk around with my SC gear on all the time and let them know. So I think more importantly though like they don't have a lot after that and I think it's like it's a lot on Maxi right now. Edgecombe slipping a little bit as a rookie kind of just. And which you expect that he's a rookie. I'm not trying to be that hard. Grimes has kind of been a bit up and down as of late. Like I think they got some challenges.
- [20:06]
A
I love Edgecomb. I loved, I loved his game against Boston. It has felt like the last month it slowed down for him a little bit in terms of his production and he's had some defensive games where I didn't think his defense was up to his. Pretty high for a rookie standards. I thought he was great against Boston. Made a little friend in the front row by kicking her in the face. And then we had a 14 minute review to see whose ball it was. It's just these endless, these endless reviews are just.
- [20:32]
B
Can I, can I throw in a thing about reviews?
- [20:35]
A
Yeah, go ahead.
- [20:36]
B
Just real quick, real quick.
- [20:38]
A
No, I just let me hear it because I'm ready to be done with them.
- [20:42]
B
Well, I'm out like altogether on reviews but if you're going to do it, you have to watch it. It has to be in real time. I'm tired of slowing everything down frame by frame. Let's analyze every little bit of this or things like this. This is. We're slowing this down and there has to be a time limit for how long a review lasts. If you can't make a decision after, after watching it four times, you're done. Whatever the call was on, the floor stands. That's it, move on. Got to keep these games moving. We can't have that. And that poor lady, she get kicked in the face and has been broadcast on national TV for the past 10 minutes. That poor lady. Just like how many times you going to watch a clip herself getting kicked in the face.
- [21:22]
A
I said this with Bill. If the refs are going to take that long or Secaucus was all out on a coffee break like let her decide whose ball it is. Just show her the monitor and she's going to be on TV. Just show her the monitor. I mean it's 20, 26 and the last two minutes of close games in the NBA still take 10 times longer than they should take. And we just, we just can't solve this problem no matter what it's it become if you get the wrong series of events. All the coaches have saved their challenges for the last three minutes of the game, everyone's got timeouts left. There's a God forbid. There's like, we got to check if this is a flagrant foul or a clear path foul. Just buckle up, go get a beer. It's going to be 30 minutes for the last two minutes of the game. And then if it goes to overtime, cancel your morning meetings. We're going to be here forever. It just still takes. It still takes too long. On the Sixers, I think you nailed it with the talent disparity thing. They've been pretty good. They've held the four without Paul, Georgia and I and I thought they would. I remember telling Mahoney, like, whatever your win projection is for them in these 25 games, knock it down one, maybe two. And I don't know exactly what the record is, but it's been fine. And they're like 500 in their last whatever games. But the thing that I underestimated in saying that, and this is something you always have to remind yourself is one guy out. Your margin for anything else going wrong is just so slim. And now something has gone wrong with Joel Embiid. And look, Joel Embiid, I compared him to Jamie Moyer a couple months ago. He's a junk baller now. He's gotten a little bit of his burst back great gradually over the year. It started with like the horizontal burst. The verticality is not quite. Not nearly where it used to be. But he did call for a lob at one point in a recent game against Miami and Vijay Edge come through him a bad lob. But like the fact that he called for it was kind of encouraging. But he's been really, really good the entire year. They are plus six with Embiid on the floor and minus two and a half with Embiid off the floor. And as much dissonance and this has been discussed as there is between the way the super fast backcourt wants to play and the way Embiid, the slower style that Embiid kind of plays. I think they've met more or less in the middle ground enough times for it to be workable. And they're just, they just need more layers to their offense than they have without a player of Joel Embiid's quality and that sort of second way of playing. So given what you said about their schedule and Embiid's health and Paul George suspension, you know, it'll be interesting to see if any of these teams other than Charlotte, who's the furthest behind, can actually get their shit together enough to chase the Sixers. Because if this season ends badly for the Sixers and right Now, I think 60 games in, if you froze it now, I think this season is a Success for Philadelphia. Six games over.500 with all the injuries, with the suspension, with. With like hitting another huge pick with Edgecomb. But if they slip into the play in and then you're. No matter where you are, you're at high risk and they miss the playoffs, I think there's going to be some organizational angst in there and you just never know what's going to happen when there's organizational angst. Next team on the list. You ready?
- [24:19]
B
Yeah. Let's go.
- [24:20]
A
Your favorite team to watch. I know you dial up every Orlando Magic game to see the offensive sets. They remind you of the beautiful game. Spurs peak warriors 31 and 28. The Orlando Magic are. They are, let's see, a whopping plus eight total points for the season. The definition of mediocrity. 19th in offense, 13th in defense. They have the same kind of schedule every other team in the east has. And let's see, they've got some tiebreakers still at stake with the Hawks and the Hornets. So they are currently losing both. They play the Bucks on March 8th. That game will decide the season series between the two of them. So buckle up for that one. They have already lost the Sixers tiebreak and swept the heat 4, 0. The heat can't figure them out and the Magic can't really figure anybody else out. Recent notes on the Magic who still have no Franz Wagner. Jalen Suggs plays every other game. Jonathan Isaac is basically a center or nothing now, like spot minutes at the four. That hasn't really worked. It's just the same old story for me, Mo. But you got anything for me?
- [25:27]
B
I mean, I've railed on them all season with just how bad the offense has looked. It's gotten a little bit better post All Star break. It's, you know, the numbers, it's climbed. It hasn't looked better, but the numbers have shown that it has improved in terms of offensive rating. But ultimately, you know, the bigger problem is even with their offense sucks, their defense has just not been what we're used to. And that's 13th.
- [25:54]
A
Yeah, that's not good enough.
- [25:55]
B
Yeah, it's just. Well, I mean, that's just not what we're used to. This is a top five defensive team, you know, that we've seen over the past few years. And this team now is just. It's gone completely out the window. That was their bedrock. That was their backbone. No matter what, we'll at least get stops. And that was the thing that made them tough in the playoffs. That was the thing that made them challenging for everybody else. And they're not even doing that. Their point differential is plus point two. Like, that's a big. You know, for me, that's. That says everything right there. Because at least if they had a competent defense, they'd be all right. They'd be in a little bit of a better situation. It's.
- [26:31]
A
It's.
- [26:32]
B
They're one of the more frustrating teams for me, you know, because I text you all the time when I get annoyed when I'm watching a game, and I'm just like, oh, my God.
- [26:39]
A
Yeah. I mean, look, I don't think either of us believes that Jamal Mosley has covered himself in glory. This offense is completely aimless. There was a possession. I think it was in their. Did they play Houston recently? I get all my games mixed up.
- [26:51]
B
Yes, they did.
- [26:52]
A
Where There was like 11 on the shot clock, 12 on the shot clock. So time, like, halfway through the shot clock, and Jonathan Isaac got the ball at the left elbow, maybe even, like, elbow extended, and just nothing happened. And so Jonathan Isaac, the worst offensive player in your rotation by, like, some margin so bad that his defense, as outstanding as it is, he just can't really be on the floor for you unless you play him at center, just looked around and was like, oh, I'm going to create a long two for myself with 12 on the shot clock.
- [27:21]
B
Cool.
- [27:22]
A
It's the worst shot imaginable for any NBA team. Basically a contested off the dribble. Jonathan Isaac, 18 footer. I guess I'm going to do that. And it missed. There's so much Javon Carter going on, it's legitimately alarming. And he just joined the team like, five seconds ago, and he's like, I'll take 17 threes. Give me all the off the dribble threes. I'll take them all. And part of it is the coaching just. They have not installed any sort of coherent offensive system. Part of it is just the personnel. Like, you look at this team, particularly without Franz, with Suggs playing every other game and missing most of his threes when he plays, there's just no. There's no, like, playmaking on the. Like, Paolo's okay. He's an okay playmaker for his size. Who's screening for him that's any kind of threat. Rolling to the rim, he's the best threat. Screening and rolling to the rim. Wendell Carter Jr. Spends half the game parked in the corners where he's a total non entity. Nobody guards him out there. They don't have a traditional point guard. Like, Anthony Black is kind of a point guard. He's been outstanding. Like he's. And by the way, if I'm Anthony Black's agent, I'm going into extension negotiations this summer. And I'm saying not a penny less than Jalen Suggs. I've been better than him this season, and I play more than him. And that contract is going to foist some very tough decisions onto the Magic, but they just don't have a lot of playmaking. And I don't like it's the little things. Also, like, watch Paolo Banchero's screen. In games when he is the screener, he misses, like 75% of his screens are just. There's no contact. And sometimes that's okay. Like if you're. If you're like Amari Stoudemire and you're slipping out and you're so explosive rolling to the rim, that that's the kind of point of you screening Paolo's. Not that they don't set good screens, they don't have good passing. Their best player is injured and it's everybody's fault. And yet they're 31 and 28 and they're sniffing a top six seed. So I guess it just still, to me, this is the year from hell for the Magic.
- [29:11]
B
But that Houston loss was a pretty bad one for them, right? Like, they had control of that game and then Houston comes back and beats them. Like, that's a game at home.
- [29:19]
A
You got to win.
- [29:19]
B
If you're Orlando.
- [29:20]
A
How about the Detroit loss when they're up by 14 up at halftime and they get just smoked the rest of the game and scored 90 something points, right?
- [29:28]
B
Like, but that's all the stuff we're talking. Like, there's just so many cases when we're watching games where it's just like, God, like, what are you guys doing? Like, just offensively and when you're in a battle to get out of the playing tournament, and that's huge. Just the fact that the weak rest that you get when you're not in the playing tournament is massive. And we've seen it over and over again through these playoffs. You need that and allow yourselves to get. Get rest, prep all that fun stuff. You gotta battle much harder than they are. And I just feel like they're almost kind of resigned to the fact of like, all right, this is who we are.
- [30:03]
A
This would look different, obviously, if Suggs were reliably available, if Franz Wagner were healthy. And I, I just don't. I haven't seen enough evidence that it would look so different, particularly on offense, that I would feel great about this team. They're obviously entering a crossroads off season almost no matter what happens. And, and I mean that roster wise, coaching, maybe front office wise, everything wise, because this season has not gone to plan. Let's take a quick break and then we'll talk about the rest of these teams, including the ones that are a little more fun than the Magic. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. On the court, the best players know when to pass and off of it, you still need teammates who are there when it counts. That's where State Farm comes in. With agents and digital capabilities to help you find the coverage you need. You can focus on what really matters, whether that's scoring game winners or just getting through the day. State Farm with the assist. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state. Okay, next up in the standings, the Miami Heat. Currently 8th, 32 and 29. They have three home games in hand. They are 15th in offense, yet. Don't let the pace fool you, everyone. Every Miami game they'll tell about how many points they score and oh my God, the pace. They're number one, number 15 in offense, a very strong number four in defense. I don't think they've gotten enough credit for that. This is a stout defensive team. Bam belongs right in the sub. Victor Wembanyama, defensive player of the year conversation as always. And you know, we talked about plus eight for the Magic, plus 28, all these mediocrities. They are plus 174 points for the season. That's actually like this is a legit freaking team. They have won the tiebreaker. No, they have not won any tiebreakers. They have four at stake. Milwaukee. They're 1 and 1. Man wouldn't care about that. They're 20 against Charlotte with two games left, 1 and 1 against Philadelphia. One game left. They've lost the Orlando one. They're 2 and 1 against the Hawks, who they play on the last game of the season. Norman Powell is out at least a week with a groin injury, which just continues to put off the what do we think of this hero norm situation? Both are extension eligible and do we want to pay both? Does it make sense to pay both? I suspect the answer to that question is probably going to be no for the Heat, but time will tell. And they're what I projected as their starting five. And what is one of their potential starting five? I mean like Hero and. And Powell have only played 158 minutes together the entire season. The lineup of Mitchell, who's been great. Powell, Hero, Wiggins, Bam. So the small ball version of their starting five with Wiggins at the four has only played in eight games the entire season. 98 minutes. So we haven't really seen this team. What has interested you about the Heat lately?
- [32:54]
B
Yeah, you know, the thing that really interested me, if you go back and watch that Houston game and shout out Cooper Moorhead, who put this out there on he's the bad X. You know, he dropped out. Like they played season high. 44 possessions A zone against the Rockets the other day in their win against the Rockets and it really just flummoxed Houston altogether and how to handle things. And I think just going back to what you said, it's surprising that they're fourth in defense and it's. And it's not a shot of, you know, these guys. But look when you look at the roster, you go, oh, wow, Donovan Mitchell. Excuse me, not Davion Mitchell.
- [33:31]
A
They would love to have gotten Donovan Mitchell. That's a good slip right there. Davion Slip.
- [33:37]
B
Bam. All like they have. They have some guys there where has been really good. And in that game against Houston, Ware and Bam played really well together. They were in possessions on. Together on that zone for I think about half of those possessions. And they were pretty strong just on that end. And if they could find a way to put those two on the floor together consistently and have a rock solid defense and be able to produce on offense, they're really going to be a problem for a lot of teams. You know, going into it. Like this is. This is one of my favorite teams that's in the playing tournament range for the East. You know, it's. They're one of those that you. They just play their asses off. It's fo. So we always know how, you know how hard this team is going to play, how well coached they are. All that fun stuff, you know, without pal it's a little bit less offensive firepower. But then they unleash. Pelo Larson goes nuts in that Houston game to start out. Like they have a lot of stuff there that's. They have random guys that go off and you're all of a. Suddenly like wow. Like the. The Heat are in this. They're battling. And I always go back to point differential plus 2.8 point differential for the season. That's pretty strong right there for a team that's seventh. Great. Excuse me.
- [34:49]
A
And I think Hero has played pretty well. 21 a game, 49% shooting, 37% on three. He's going to get hunted on defense. We know that. That's just life. And he competes, and they have a good infrastructure behind him. You nailed it with Ware. I mean, this is my top five. Most interesting subplot in the league for NBA nerds is the Bam Ware combination. Because what a roller coaster year for Khalil Ware. Pretty good start. Shows all the flashes you want from him in this offense. He's making enough threes when he has to spot up. He's a good offensive rebounder. Dives to the rim, a little more discipline on defense, not chasing every block, staying down, fighting harder on the boards. Then he goes through a midseason slump where all of that kind of fades out. And there are games where some of the bigger centers, like, really beat the crap out of him on the boards. There was one where Gobert just ate his lunch in the second half of the game. And Spos trusts in him, declines. They have kind of a public tet a tete about it. And there's a lot of noise about, like, is. Is SPO losing him? Is SPO's coaching style the right coaching style for Khalil Ware? This guy's so talented. The Heat have to get that talent out of him to have any path forward, whether it's with Bam and Ware or with Ware as a trade asset this summer in whatever Giannis talks happen, whatever the next sort of star who becomes available, talks happen. They need that to happen. And the last 15 games, super. Like, the talent is undeniable. And the last 15 games, here's the Statmo. They are now plus 45 for the season. Total points in 325 minutes with Bam and where on the floor together. I looked that up this morning and I thought that. I know they've been better lately. That doesn't seem right because that was like, minus a significant amount for a lot of the season. In six games since February 1, they've only played in six games. Together, they are plus 87 in 59 minutes. Now, some of that is just crazy fluky. Like, that's just insane. And the Heat for the season have allowed, I think, the fourth lowest percentage on threes for the season. So their defense may be. There may be a tiny bit of luck factored in there. But I like Ware. I love Bam. Bam's a winner. They've just got to figure out if that situation is workable for them long term, if those two guys can play together and or if where is important enough to be a trade asset or if he's important and steady enough to make Bam a trade asset. I, I know the Heat well enough to know that trade. They do not want to trade Bam under any circumstances. He's the captain. He's broken some of Alonzo Morty's weight room records like he is Heat culture. So I think it would be much more likely that, you know, Ware becomes a trade asset. But as we've seen with Damian Lillard, you don't always get to trade for the guys you want to trade for. And it helps if your own players are good. I just really like this team if they can stay healthy. I think they have a lot of pieces and by the way, at the end of this I'm going to make you pick three of these teams that you think are going to get into the playoffs. So that's my, that's my Heat spiel. We'll see when Norm comes back and how they handle the Powell hero twosome.
- [37:47]
B
And just to just, just to add in because I real quickly did a over the last 15 games lineup data between two man lineup on NBA.com they've only played six games together. So small sample size 59. I mean on the floor together. 59 total minutes together in six games. Their net rating is plus 66.9.
- [38:09]
A
I told you, plus 87. Plus 87 total points. It's insane.
- [38:12]
B
I mean it's absurd. Like in that way if they can put that together, that's really promising.
- [38:20]
A
Now I do remember one game because I this is like one of the things I do every four days is check the Bamware minutes and every game I check that I don't see every Heat game I don't see. I look at the lineup Data. There was one game where they were like +22 or some crazy number but that's still that they've been like that in a bunch of games. Okay, next on the list, your and my Atlanta Hawks. A rousing 531 and 31 a total point differential of plus one for the season. Congratulations to the Atlanta Hawks. You are plus one for the season. They have a very good tiebreaker situation in some of these. Well, actually not. They've, they're, they've won the Philly one, they're up two. Oh against Orlando, they're losing to Atlanta or Miami. They lost the one to Charlotte and they have two games left against the Bucks. Whether that becomes relevant or not, Jonathan Kaminga has exploded onto the scene. They're chanting, thank you, Warriors. The warriors are going to have to ride out a little embarrassment here as Kaminga soars against bad teams so far. We'll see what it does when the competition stiffens and Porzingis continues to just not play for a Warriors team that's falling down the standings. We'll talk about them a little bit lately. Risa Shay now coming off the bench. That's not great. And the Pelicans pick. The Pelicans are still trying to win, and they are now 19 and 43, which puts them in the number six spot in the lottery rankings. The Kings have a firm, regal grip on the number one spot in the lottery ratings. Congratulations to the Kings. After that, the Jazz, the Pelicans, the Pacers, the Nets and the Wizards are all pretty close. Only one of these teams is trying to win. That's the Pelicans. If indeed the Pelicans finish with the sixth worst record in the NBA and there is a big gap between six and seven right now. The Mavericks may do their damnedest to close that gap, but it's going to be tough. That would give The Hawks a 37% chance at a top four pick and a 76% chance at a top seven pick, but the odds would be close to 50. 50. It's number six or number seven, which is not what it looked like it was going to be halfway through the season. Zion is out again, though, so we'll see. Anything interesting about the Hawks other than Kaminga? We saw the first Kaminga, Jalen Johnson minutes the other day in a win against Portland. They looked fine. It was Portland. They turned it over a lot. Transition is very good for Jonathan Kaminga. Anything of interest here for my sad cacaoing Hawks?
- [40:49]
B
Our sad cacaoing Hawks. I was. I was on the bandwagon with you. I will.
- [40:53]
A
I know. All footage has been erased. It was all I've told you. I told. I don't remember. It was all I like. I was never high on the Hawks. If you see a clip of me circulating saying, the Hawks take the over, it's a lock. This team could make the conference final. That's AI. It's a very dangerous thing.
- [41:09]
B
Yeah, well, I. For me, it's. There's no way it's not Kaminga, but it's also watching how this will play out with him and Jalen Johnson and what that looks like when they're on the floor together and right now. So Far, it is just transition. It is just flying up down the court in the way, and that's probably how they want to play with what they have on their roster and something you want to make sure you get out in transition and you play in those games. I forget who they played on Sunday. Was it. Was it the Blazers? It was.
- [41:37]
A
That was Portland. Yeah, that was Portland.
- [41:39]
B
Like, his first quarter run right off the bat was impressive. He was getting to the line. He was getting, you know, and again, in transition and flying. But like you said, we got to see what it looks like as they play proper, you know, talent around them. But for me, I just think this is. It's just going to be interesting. It's. It's being.500 is a disappointing season for them for what we thought they were going to be, you know, for. For this season. And we weren't alone. A lot of people thought that. And I think that's the important thing, to kind of sort of just understand that, like, this is disappointment for them. Being in the playing tournament was not the plan this season.
- [42:13]
A
Even. Even that remains so even with Trey Young and Kristoff Torzingis basically giving them nothing in the form of encore production for the entire season, it's still disappointing. And it's, to me, disappointing for everybody, for Trae Young, for Quinn Snyder, for the front office, that they could not find a way to blend stylistically with what. Because that was the ceiling that was. We have this team that's coming with switchy defenders and cuts and off ball movement and random pick and rolls and Jalen Johnson handling and then screening and blah, blah, blah. You mix that in with the kind of spacing and playmaking that Trae Young provides, you might have something and they just couldn't do it. And it's on everybody. It's on Trae Young for being sort of didactic about he wants to. It's on the coaching staff and Gwen Snyder for just not being able to coax everyone in the right directions. It's massive. But even so, even getting nothing from him, this team should be better than 31 and 31. It's a disappointment. And that Pelicans pick, you know, Bill was on his pod Sunday, was saying they should have traded it, they should have got somebody for it. And we sort of just skirted around it and went on to the next thing. And I wanted to say to him, like, well, who, like, who was available? Like, could they have gotten Giannis for that? I don't really think there's any evidence that Giannis was on the table in any real way. Now, that asset at that time was a pretty golden chip. They had already traded Trae Young, which was going to be sort of the salary matching slash. Like, hey, we got Trae Young. That's kind of cool for Milwaukee and 37% of the top four pick. It's not like 5% that if that's where it ends up being like, that's still a lot of percent. And do I trust the Pelicans to continue winning at this rate for any extended period of time? Not really. Even with Dejounte Murray back. Zion's out, so Jury will be out on that one.
- [43:57]
B
Also, they can still trade it leading up to the draft, right? Once we get in the draft and we know what the position is and things like that, or on draft night or draft the rookie and trade him later. So I'm with you in the sense of like, the trade market wasn't there. Like, who. Who would they have won after with that pick? A lot of teams would have happily taken it, but I don't know what they would have gotten back in return would have been worth, you know, worth the move itself.
- [44:23]
A
A couple things I do want to say about the Hawks Jock Landale. I said it at the trade deadline. I was like, just sneaky. Good acquisition for them. He's been awesome. For the Hawks. For the Hawks. I don't know how I just said Hawks. The Hawks have broken my whole brain, my body, my soul, everything. And because he can nominally shoot threes, a Kangwoo can really shoot threes, particularly from the corners. But everywhere they can make hay. Maybe with this Kaminga, Jalen Johnson combination, maybe they can even run pick and rolls with the two of them involved. But certainly with one of them as the screener, the other in the dunker spot, the center space somewhere. Like, that's kind of interesting. And I do want. I also want to shout out Dyson Daniels. It feels like he's had a really disappointing season because you can't shoot threes anymore. He's clearly got. It's in his head. He doesn't take them, he doesn't make them. He has like a very tiny amount of threes for the season. And he's not. He's not the defensive wrecking crew that he was last year, where he had had three steals a game. He's still averaging one and a half, 1.9, I think, steals per game. I do want to give him a little Credit. He's shooting 56% on twos. Like, he's been really Good in the paint from floater range, all of that. He's one of the best cutters in the entire league. Six assists and six rebounds a game are both up for him. He's getting better at a lot of stuff that's getting lost in all the talk about his shooting, which is a real thing. And it makes it hard for them to build sort of coherent lineups with him. And they're plus two and a half with him on the floor, per hundred possessions, minus four and a half with him off the floor. It's, I think, the best net rating of all the rotation players on their team. Ricochet has been. It's only year two, but what's happening with him is a far bigger problem than anything that's happening with Daniels. And I'm just, I'm not going to rush with Re Sachet. Like, I still think he's going to be a productive wing in the NBA, but this has been a very discouraging season. And obviously like that pick. Is it like we can already write the jury on that that they made the wrong pick at number one and you only get so many chances to pick that high.
- [46:29]
B
Yeah, it's tough in that situation. And with Reese's development's not linear, so like, obviously you wanted to. You'd hope he'd have a better second year, but okay, this has been a step back type of year for him. Next season he can get going, try to get in the lab, try to find himself a little bit more and figure out what is where his game needs to be. What he needs to be doing more often, I think is going to be a key thing for him. When they get going. I'm not ready to give up on him because we've seen this from young guys before where they've had a good rookie year, bad, bad sophomore year and come back. So I don't feel like I'm ready to go out there and go nuts. But yeah, like, you see what SAR is doing, it's tough to kind of look at it and say like, yeah, we made the right pick.
- [47:14]
A
Well, Saar Castle, Reed shepherd, who, you know, the start Reed shepherd thing is getting some momentum now because he has been starting. Jabari Smith Jr. Has missed the last two games for Houston. And I said after that, Knicks collapse that like every game they lose like that when their fourth quarter offense goes to shit. I'm just watching screaming, just put Reed shepherd in the game because I yeah, look, he's small. He's going to get hunted on defense. You can't just Build everything around the defense. If the offense is just flatlining and he competes, he's got great hands, he makes plays, steals, blocks, everything like that. And he just loosens up so much about the offense to have a quick twitch ball handler, good passer. Like I keep hearing he's not a true point guard. This is he. I don't know. Like he. He throws passes every game. We're like that's a fucking laser beam that he just threw left handed. No look under the. To somebody under the rim. Anyway, it was the wrong pick. I still think Reese's Shale will be good also. Playing like a guy with no confidence. You know who's not playing like a team with no confidence? The Charlotte Hornets. 31 or 30 and 31. Not quite 500 yet, but almost there. They have three home games in hand. Tough schedule by east standards. Mo. This is the number four offense in the NBA and perhaps just as pertinent the number 17 defense. And trending up if they can get to league average. That's interesting. Plus 184, the 10th best point differential in the league. Number 10 overall. I have sung the praises of this team. Everyone has sung the praises of this team. Bill and I talked about them being a 50 win team next year. Bill threw out the warriors as a comp. I think that like let's hit the brakes on that. But this is clearly something about these three guys ball, Miller, Knipple. And they're almost the anti magic. And that the Magic are built around two like size players who teams treat as non shooters. And they're kind of like particularly Powell, a little slow and deliberate in the way they play. The Hornets are built around three like size players. Six, seven Lamelo, six seven Miller six, six. Knipple who Two of them. One is an A minus shooter in Lamelo, one is a plus plus in Knippel. One is kind of B TBD and Miller. But the way they move and the speed with which they play and move the ball and the variety of ways on ball and off ball that Charles Lee and his staff pair them together in screening actions and cutting actions. It's just a freaking whirlwind and it's very much a three man show. They and now they have Kobe White. I don't have really any notes Mo, except that I did it with Bill and I'll do it again here. Bill was talking about Miller and Knipple and that's the foundation of the team and this duo. I'm like, I know people just love to hate on Lamelo. He does goofy shit every game. The guy is really good. He's always been really good. Plus or minus like seven decisions a game. We've now and that's offense and defense. We're now if it was seven to 10 decisions that you're like, dude, really, we're down to like three to five. That's major progress. He's a really good shooter. He's a next level passer. He's playing harder on defense. And they are plus nine and a half with him on the floor and minus two and a half with him off the floor. It's always been like this. Their offense is always amazing with Lamelo and just for whatever it's worth, and I don't think it's worth much with Khan and Miller on the floor and no Lamello, they're minus 17 and a half per 100 possessions according to cleaning the glass now, small sample size, shooting luck, all that. This is just a legit, awesome offensive team. And I'm not sure I'd be scared of them if I were Detroit or Boston because I think those teams are just polished, two way, much more experienced kind of teams. But I also would not expect an easy series. I'd expect like a competitive four. Two, like, oh, game five at home. We got to win this game. It's two, two kind of series. Everyone should be rooting for the Hornets to make the playoffs. Forget all these other teams who are boring as shit. Get the Hornets into the playoffs. Any notes? Mo?
- [51:28]
B
The thing I like about them is they have the highest point differential of all the teams we're talking about. They're good plus three, but that take into account they started four and 14. For them to still be plus three at this point lets you know how good they've been since that terrible start.
- [51:44]
A
We should Note that like +100 of those +184 are two games against Philadelphia and Utah. But even if you took those down to normal levels, since whenever they started winning, they've been one of the six to eight best teams in the NBA.
- [51:58]
B
But those count. Those count, right?
- [52:00]
A
Like those are indicative of quality.
- [52:02]
B
Yeah. So I mean, you know, they came out there and they kicked somebody's ass like that. That, that matters to a degree in these things. But what I love about it is just how fast the offense is, right. And like just how quickly everybody kind of responds and reacts to everything. And you know, there's. There are unsung heroes on this roster, Musa. Diabetes, diabate. Excuse me.
- [52:26]
A
Antlers up, baby.
- [52:28]
B
You know, you have guys that are making Plays and are doing things, you know, beyond just those three guys. Those are the three main guys, and they've been awesome, and they've kind of found themselves and meld well together. Like, I love knipples movement with Lamelo's passing, right? Because Lamelo will find him as he's working his way around a screen or coming off of stuff. I did an edit for NBA tv, and we went through concan nipples threes, and one of my favorite things that they did was they ran a screen where he's setting the pin down. The guy curls around coming off the pin down, and screws Canipple his guy, and knipple pops back for a three. I love the creativity that you're getting from Charles Lee and all those things and sort of just smart stuff that they're doing and using movement and stuff like that. When you combine shooting with passing and cutting, like, it's really difficult to defend in the way that they play. And it puts you on your heels defensively because it's like, okay, I got to go here. Oh, I got to. Oh, okay, well. Oh, I got to rush up on Lamello. Oh, no. Miller's cutting. Back door. I'm screwed. Like, you're. You're in all sorts of different ways, you know, when you're up against it. And I think they put you in a lot of bad spots, and I think they're. That's what's so fun about their offense. And it is just high octane, and you have a lot of fun with that stuff. I mean, they're everybody's favorite team. Like, we.
- [53:48]
A
We.
- [53:48]
B
We can agree, like, I think across the board,
- [53:53]
A
Lamello will even be, like, off the ball sometimes now, both as a screener or, like, coming up from the corner or. Or whatever. You have it. And Diabate has really developed enough on offense that if they blitz the Hornets ball handlers and. And Miller is the only one who is kind of vulnerable to the blitz. His decision making is a little slower than the other two, but that's coming along. If you blitz them, a diabate can catch it and dribble it one time and hit a floater, and, like, that's a big step for him. And also, like, they're really hard to blitz just because of the shooting and passing they have on the floor. It's hard to blitz teams who move the ball like that and move it to guys who are shooters. And I'm going to repeat this because it's so stunning. I said it on Bill's pod, but knipple Cooper Flag's going to have to play to take this from Canipal. I thought Cooper Flag had nosed ahead of him like 10, 15 games ago. Knipple now has the lead in the Rookie of the Year race because Flag isn't playing. He's injured. And I think he'll start playing soon again, hopefully. But Knipple like, oh, he's a good shooter. And people gloss it over. I said this on Bill's pod. There are seven total player seasons, six total player seasons in which a player has played 2,000 minutes, hit at least 43% on threes. Knipples at 44 on eight threes or more per 36 minutes. He's above that number two. The seven previous seasons to this are Curry, Curry, Curry, Klay Thompson, Desmond Bain and one Duncan Robinson. Season that sneaks in in Miami. And Kinnippo is going to join that club. Like that's how good of a shooter this dude is and a good of and he moves the ball and all that. Anyway, the Hornets are really fun to watch. Okay, Mo, it's time. I'm trying to think. Let me just make sure I have no more Hornets notes. I don't. Their defense is up to 17th. I talked with Bill about the infrastructure underlying everything they do. We have to pick three of these, what, six teams to make the postseason. By rule, three of them must make it from the Eastern Conference. I have my picks, but I'm going to let you go first and we'll see if we match. And this is not who we're rooting for. This is who we actually think. With Philly at 33 and 27, 31 and 28. Magic all the way down to 30 and 31. Charlotte, 26 and 34. Bucks, who's actually making the playoffs.
- [56:10]
B
I'm going with Philadelphia going Orlando and I'm going Charlotte.
- [56:18]
A
The only difference we have is I'm going Philadelphia, Miami and Charlotte. And it feels incredible to not say Orlando, especially if Franz comes back and Suggs can stay in and they're. They're qualitatively definitely the second to best or maybe third at worst of these teams and maybe the best. I just, I. It may just. I may not like watching them, but I also don't have a lot of faith that they're going to stay the ship. Miami just. Miami's their way in. They just. They get in there. So I'm going. I'm going Philly, Miami, Charlotte.
- [56:53]
B
My only thing, the only reason why I'm going Orlando over Miami is just the way it's set up in the standings now 78 and Orlando just has to win one game and they've, like you said, Miami has not been able to really figure out this Orlando squad this season and I feel like that's going to be the the problem for the the Heat.
- [57:13]
A
If it was I didn't factor the 40 Orlando advantage in. I don't. You know what? I don't care Mo. I don't care. Fair enough.
- [57:20]
B
But I think that's going to be a and they just got to win the one game to get in. You know, and it's, it's funny for me to have picked Orlando considering how much I've I've been on bid on them this season. But I think they they find a way.
- [57:33]
A
All right, let's take a quick break and we're going to go discuss some Western Conference hacks this episode is brought to you by Claude from Anthropic. Picture this. You're still hours into trying to make the perfect trade for your fantasy team, and somehow you're still trying to narrow down your list. Classic Claude gets that. It won't hand you a neat answer, but it works with you until you land on one that holds up their research mode scours the web so you don't have to in Anthropic just committed to not putting ads in Claude so your conversation stays yours. Try Claude for free at Claude AI Low and see why problem solvers choose Claude as their thinking partner. This episode is brought to you by Lincoln Whether you're watching highlights while parked or heading out for a Drive, the 2026 Lincoln Nautilus Hybrid keeps you connected with smart tech that helps tie your on screen and off screen worlds together. So help turn every drive into an opportunity for discovery with a 2026 Lincoln Nautilus Hybrid. Learn more at lincoln.com Available connectivity, features and functionality vary by model package. PR trials and term lengths vary by model. Video streaming and games are only available while parked. This episode is brought to you by TaxAct. TaxAct is your offensive coordinator for tax season, guiding you step by step with your maximum refund guaranteed. Get tips along the way, add expert assist to talk to tax experts or let our experts do your taxes for you with expert full service. TaxAct helps you find the deductions and credits you deserve so you can get them over with. Visit taxact.com to learn more. Conditions apply. See tech sac.com for details. Happenings let's move west the Denver Nuggets MO biggest threat to Oklahoma City. I said it Full health I've said many times I think they can go toe to toe with the Thunder and win the championship. Squeaked went out in Utah last night. Jokic was falling all over the place, falling on top of people. There were some wrestling moves involved, a little bit of flopping, a controversial overturned foul call on Jokic at the end of the game. It's not great even on a back to back, even in Utah at altitude. And Denver should be used to playing at altitude. It's not great when you just squeak out a win in Utah, a team that's not trying to win organizationally when Jamal Murray goes off for 45 points. This was coming off two straight losses to other Western Conference powers at Oklahoma City in overtime when Jokic did the mean mug at Lou Dort. And Lou Dort, by the way, obvious cheap shot. I can't believe people were even like trying to defend Lou Dort like a very obvious cheap shot. I might make you do your best Jokic eyes impression at some point. And then a home loss to Minnesota where the Wolves led wire to wire. Their defensive numbers were okay in those games. Just okay. I test was worse than okay for me in both of those games. And there was this idea that their defense had really rebounded since the All Star break. And it's really based on two games. One against the Celtics, who are at back to back at altitude and scored only 84 points and one against Portland. They won by 54 points. And Portland's offense stinks. I don't think their defense is leveled up really at all in any meaningful way. Aaron Gordon is still out. Cam Johnson has been MIA and missed last night's game. And I said this with Bill. I will never write off the Nuggets with Jokic and Murray. I want to see them at full health. I don't know if it's even fair to assume that Aaron Gordon can be at full health for any extended period of time. But they were saying during the Nuggets Wolves game that a week or so we'll see Watson and Gordon both back. Brown is now back and looks like himself. Cam Johnson presumably will be back soon from whatever. I don't even remember what his injury is. Which gives them all kind of options. You know, we know their core lineups are going to be Murray, Gordon, Jokic and at full health. They have a lot of interesting ways to fill those last two spots. Last night they were not at full health. They actually started Valentunas next to Jokic. But I said this with Bill. They are I think five and eight in their last 13 games, they have not played well since Jokic came back. Jokic is outstanding, always looks, puts up outstanding numbers. I don't think he's looked, I mean, it's hard to say. He's looked like Jokic, like the best offensive player of all time. To me, his defense has been worse than usual all season and worse than usual in this 15 game stretch and his offense has been always outstanding, but his jumper has been wonky and his turnovers have been up and they just don't have. They need Jokic to be Pete Jokic. I just, it's starting to feel I'm not quite there yet, but it's starting to bubble up in my stomach. And I said this on Sunday with Bill. Every great team has those years where it's just like it's not our year. Just it doesn't just. There's too much stuff going wrong and none of it really in our control. It's not our year. And I'm worried that this is not our year year for the Nuggets. I'm not there yet, but I've officially been worried for like a week now.
- [62:21]
B
Yeah. So to just go first to Jokic, coming back from injuries, you know, would I 100% agree with you on the defensive side, I feel like he's taken kind of a step back and it's been more just his effort level defensively on that. And I feel like it's not as intense as it has been in the past. But the other thing that really kind of stood out to me, his story point shooting numbers have like his percentage has dropped off a cliff and there's
- [62:47]
A
like the wrist, the wrist rumblings, right?
- [62:49]
B
Yeah. Like he went from shooting 43% from three before the injury where it was like every time he shot the three, I was like, that's automatic. Like now everybody's really screwed. Whereas now he's shooting 32%. Like that's an 11 point drop in percentage. Just about the same amount of attempts and things like that. But that's a huge drop off for the Nuggets there offensively, just on that end of what they had before, you know, Jokic's injury. Then on top of that, like the Cam Johnson, like I was in on this trade. I loved the trade. I thought it was smart for them. I thought it worked out. I thought it was going to work out better and it was very plug and play and it was just going to seamlessly work together. And I should have been smarter, Zach, because I should have gone to my own Personal experience. My first year with the spurs was Richard Jefferson's first year with the Spurs. And when I took the job with the spurs and I was saying my goodbyes to some of the Clipper staffers, it was right after. And somebody with the Clippers had literally said to me, like, right after that trade, you're going to win a ring now, like, because that's. We all thought it was plug and play. Add Richard Jefferson, Tony, Manu, Tim, like, this is going to work. And it didn't work that first season. It actually took RJ a full year. Came back the second year and was. Was awesome. Was killing it from three and all that stuff. I feel like Cam still trying to figure out where he fits within this offense, and teams basically are just not guarding him. He had a wide open three in the corner against Oklahoma City on a huge possession that I'm pretty sure would have given the Nuggets a lead. Missed it. And it's. Some of it's been the injuries that he's missed, the time he's missed. So he hasn't been able to have that chemistry to figure out where he goes. And then even with Gordon out and for so long, like, it's difficult for him to kind of figure out where he's going to fit in the scheme of things. Like, there are a lot of things that I, when I start kind of looking at with the Nuggets, I'm starting to get like, huh. Like that's not quite where. Where you want that to be. And even with Gordon, like, you need to get at least 15 games before the playoffs, full health. So everybody understands their roles and understands what they need to be doing. And I'm worried with just Gordon in the sense of, like, we haven't seen him play in forever.
- [65:04]
A
At this point, it's worrisome. Cam Johnson, we knew he was not going to be any kind of major defensive upgrade over Michael Porter Jr. At least I knew, if only because of rebounding. Michael Porter Jr. Is a really good rebounder. He's 6 10. He's just bigger than Cam Johnson. Cam Johnson might be more engaged rotationally. He might be in the right place at the right time. I think his defense has been worse than it was in Phoenix and Brooklyn, probably because he's been slowed by injuries off and on. But teams are just. They're picking on him with their quick guards, just like they'd pick on, you know, I mean, they pick on everybody on the Nuggets, basically, other than, you know, Peyton Watson and Christian Brown and even Christian Brown is overmatched, guarding like a Shay one on one, which is his job because they don't have anyone else who can do it. He's just, Shay's just too fast for him and I don't think his point of attack defense has been all that good. And Adam Morris has been on this for DNVR sports too. But guys are just going at Cam Johnson and shoot like the shooting. I understood the trade. I didn't like it nearly as much as anyone else because I kept, I was, I felt like I was in crazy town defending Michael Porter Jr. People acted like he was just a fucking nobody because he's said some stuff on some podcasts that was weird. And like defensively he could be absent minded. He's got back issues. All this I just kept saying like a 610A plus shooter with Jokic is just so freaking valuable. And Cam Johnson is not 6:10. He has not been an A plus shoot this year. He's been fine. He's shooting 40. He's actually shooting a higher percentage than Michael Porter Jr. But on fewer attempts by like 2 or 3 per 36 minutes, which is massively important to the Nuggets offense because they just, they don't shoot threes. And every little bit of threes that they lose is exponentially important to them because of how few they shoot. And you know, right now they're feeling the lack of size without Watson and Gordon because particularly when teams bring Jokic out to the perimeter, he's been not nearly as, as like he's just been lost at sea in no man's land too often. And when people get by him, there's just no size anywhere behind him. And like the whole aggressive pick and roll defense they play with him is based on we gotta have size. Like Michael Porter Jr. And Aaron Gordon rotating to the rim is a real thing. Cam Johnson and Bruce Brown rotating to the rim is not threatening for anybody. And it's just like the Cam Johnson thing is so interesting because I mentioned if they're healthy or if Aaron Gordon's 90% healthy, they're going to close games with Murray Gordon, Jokic and two open slots. And right now, like, if you ask me who I have the most faith in to have those two spots, it's Christian Brown and Peyton Watson. And I just don't think the Brown Watson Gordon combination is, has quite enough juice offensively. Maybe I'm wrong because Gordon is a made man as a 40% three point shooter. Now he's going to be given space, but he's going to make those shots and he's given less space than he used to be. Peyton Watson is shooting 41% on threes. He's not treated as a shooter, but if he makes the shots, it doesn't matter. Now he's 50 something percent on corner threes and less than that on above the break. Christian Brown has been up and down so I is that workable? And if it. Because if it's not those three, then you're counting on Cam Johnson and if it's not Cam Johnson, then you're going way down in size with Tim Hardaway Jr. Or Bruce Brown. They just signed Tyus Jones. Forgive me if I'm not really going to think that Tyus Jones is changing the Denver Nuggets life after being watching out with multiple teams already this season, I'd rather play Jalen Pickett, frankly, than Tyus Jones at this point. So even if they get healthy, the Cam Johnson piece, to use Bill's phraseology, worries me a little bit just in terms of like how does like who's closing games for this team. They have a lot of options and it's to the front officer's credit that they have like Tim Hardaway Jr. Has been great. Bruce Brown is Bruce Brown. Like Watson's been awesome. I just don't know, you know, how it all fits together.
- [69:02]
B
Yeah. And the scary part is have you seen their schedule going into the.
- [69:07]
A
They have a crazy schedule.
- [69:08]
B
It's. It's two games against the Thunder left which everybody sign up and make sure you're. You're paying attention to the next time they meet. Three games against the Spurs, Knicks, Rockets, two against the Lakers. It's pretty intense.
- [69:22]
A
Like just the hardest schedule in the NBA.
- [69:24]
B
Yeah, by far. And it's not like it's insane to me when you see that stuff. So we're going to see, I guess what they're going to be. But like I just, it's like you said, sometimes these great teams just have a year where you just, you go into it knowing like going into the playoffs you kind of feel like they just don't have it and they might shock us all and all of a sudden be phenomenal. Last 10 games of the season and we're all ready to roll. But also comes down to their playoff matchups, like their route. Right. Like that's one thing you watch for in the west and I watch more in the west than anywhere else. They're the way they're slotted, they're fifth right now, one loss behind Minnesota. They have the Tiebreaker over Minnesota. So, you know, it's important for them to at least tie them. They're four or five and that means potentially playing Oklahoma City in the second round, like that could be pretty tough right there in that area. They're tied with the Lakers, a number of losses. They're only two losses up on Phoenix, but without Dylan Brooks and you know, the injuries have piled up with. And with Phoenix, like I don't think they'll drop into the plane, but like kind of crazy. Like they could drop to six, you know, and it. And it might actually be smart for them to drive.
- [70:39]
A
I don't think. I think Denver cares less about when they play Oklahoma City and more about who they might play in the first round. That would just be my guess as to like Minnesota plays them. Really. I know Denver's 3 and 1 against Minnesota. They just lost them and one of the games was in overtime. Minnesota's obviously played them toe to toe in the playoffs, including winning a game seven in Denver. I think they probably don't. I think the when do we get the Thunder thing is like you're going to, you're going to probably have to go through them at some point. And by the way, one of the other big X factors now is the Thunder are going to get healthy and they're going to remind people like, oh, this is like, this is the full team. Like Jared McCain is a luxury. By the way, I've had some people ask me like, where was the rest of the league on Jared McCain, like, if he was available, nobody outbid Oklahoma City. Oklahoma City traded legit draft equity, a first round pick and some seconds. And I don't think the Sixers were getting that for a guy who was on the fringes of their rotation and has played like 50 NBA games. This is the benefit of being Oklahoma City. They don't care about overpaying with draft picks. They're built to overpay with draft picks. But anyway, Jalen Williams, that's like, I'm going to watch very carefully when he comes back because he's barely played this season. We have not really seen him at peak level form because of his wrist injury and other stuff. And now he's been out with a leg injury of some kind. And this was a guy who's putting up like, like we were through five, six games of the Finals thinking, is he challenging Shea for Finals mvp, like masterpiece level games late in the NBA Finals. He's a big X factor. But I love those matchups with the Thunder and the Nuggets and a couple of things have stuck out to me. Number one, let me bring this up to make sure I get it. The Nuggets have played the third most zone on defense in the entire NBA this year behind Miami and Milwaukee. That's according to the Genius IQ second Spectrum tracking data. The Thunder have faced the third most zone in the NBA this season, including against the Nuggets. The Thunder have done quite well against Zone 1.175 points for 100 possessions and the Nuggets have done quite poorly playing zone according to the tracking data. That's one thing. And I like the Thunder's attack of the zone. I love the way they use the baseline, particularly when they have two bigs in the game. They pass to each other on the baseline and the Thunder have gotten a little more daring and it's only for small snippets of games. But playing Chet as the lone big man against Jokic and having Chet guard Jokic and just the Jokic thing that I'm watching, I'm not sure what it means, but I'm interested in your take jokic this season. 10 post ups per 100 possessions. That is his fourth lowest number ever and his lowest frequency since 2017, 2018. In his best seasons he's been up around 13, 14, 15. And the reason I and they're still like wildly efficient plays but the reason I looked that up is I've watched a lot of these Nugget games and thought to myself, boy, I'd like to see him post that. They're averaging 1.46 points per position and I just feel like I'm not seeing it as much and it just feeds into my like he hasn't been. He's still the best offense player in the NBA. He just hasn't been quite the dominant like ultra, ultra dominant. Like I'm going to do everything at all times kind of for so those are. I just think it's a fascinating matchup, that's all.
- [74:12]
B
I wonder if some of that has to do with Murray having such an amazing year and from start to finish and then they've decided to kind of let's hammer more the pick and roll between those two guys than anything else. And I think that might play into some of that. But yeah, like posting up Jokic just seems like a good idea that I'd probably want to do 15 times a
- [74:36]
A
game and it could just be we're playing the long game, we're saving all this stuff for the playoffs and I will never count them out. I will never Count them out. Especially with Jalen Williams health being a little bit more of an unknown than the Thunder would like it to be. But the west is just going to be hellacious. By the way, what did you think of Bill's Are the Thunder becoming villains? Question slash take after the Lou Dort Jokic incident.
- [75:03]
B
I thought they were becoming villains beforehand. I thought that was kind of been. I feel like that's been sort of bubbling up underneath. That's why I think so many people were so excited when the spurs were beating them in December.
- [75:15]
A
Right.
- [75:15]
B
I felt like people were genuinely excited. And you know, you guys said it. A lot of it's baked in jealousy, right?
- [75:23]
A
A lot of it that cannot be said enough. The envy. The envy of their stockpile of picks and the Shade trade and all that.
- [75:31]
B
Do you know how annoyed I'd be if I was one of the other 29 teams? I would be. But then it's also the stuff where it's like they go. The reports of them complaining to the Jazz, you know, about the Jazz, I mean, excuse me, to the NBA and things. Because they own the Jazzes pick and they don't. You know, it's like all these small things that they kind of do it and they don't care and I'm. And I'm happy about that with Oklahoma City. Like that. Whatever. They don't care about that outside noise. Very San Antonio spurs ish in that sense.
- [76:00]
A
But.
- [76:00]
B
And they just go about their business. But it is going to piss everybody else off. Everybody else is going to be. I loved Bill mentioning the commercials suck. You know, like, I thought that was hilarious.
- [76:10]
A
That one hadn't come across my radar yet. So. Yeah.
- [76:14]
B
But it's true though. They're annoying when you're watching those things. And it was the whole what a girl wants commercial and things. Like it was all those things like they are becoming villains. But you know what?
- [76:23]
A
That's good. I love it.
- [76:25]
B
It's fun. We need it. We need more villains. We need more rivalries. The listen I'm dirty play by door, you know, and.
- [76:34]
A
And no question. Just there's no argument. There is no argument that it wasn't like it wasn't like it reminded me of Chris Paul was the master of this when he'd be dribbling up the floor and veer into somebody behind him to draw a foul. And I never liked that. And I loved when the league started calling it an offensive foul. But at least it was like not a basketball play. But he had the basketball and there was like basketball going on. That was just like, I'm just gonna hip check you. And like there was a little elbow to it too. It was like, I'm just gonna go out of my way, stop and hit you just to be Lou Dort.
- [77:07]
B
And but the funniest thing of all this, and this is the thing that drives me nuts about Oklahoma City, I actually did a video on offside for it after the they lost to the spurs in the playing tournament game in Vegas. Dort was shocked the referee called the foul. If you go back and watch his reaction as soon as the.
- [77:28]
A
Everybody though. But that's everybody.
- [77:30]
B
But they do. But they get away with so much. To me, it's like you can't really just complain every time, like the whistle blows, you know, and it's all that stuff. Like, I just think the. The way we're kind of. It's just fun. I love that they're villains. I love that we're having more animosity across the board in the NBA. I don't want fights and things like that, but I love that we have rivalries kind of coming back in a way. And it's not so kumbaya ish that we get. And it's kind of fun to sort of see all of this bubbling up because everybody's kind of having these sort of little skirmishes.
- [78:06]
A
Dort also one of the elite extended leg kickers. If he sees an opportunity on his three point shot when he's coming down, like he'll just do a karate kick sideways and see if it hits somebody. And by the I he's not alone. Lots of people do that. And I the the referees should definitely air on the side of those being offensive fouls. Like if it's questionable, call it on the offense side. The leg kick needs to go. By the way, the push off is now officially a major talking point, I think thanks to Doris Burke who railed about it a little bit when who got Ant got called for one against Denver and then Jamal Murray didn't get called for. I thought a much less egregious one than Ant did. And I've heard pri. That was Sunday. Before that I had already gotten texts from coaches about push offs being an epidemic in the league and everyone's going to think it's Shea. That's the reason Jalen Brown's name has come up quite a lot as a push off guy. And he got called for one the other day against. It wasn't Philly, it was the game before after a couple others that I thought probably should have been called. So it's, it's like a real, it's like a real discussion. What, what are your thoughts on the state of the. And by the way, I told all these coaches as politely as I could. Spare me. Because when your guy does it, you're going to be like, that's definitely not a foul. Don't call that a foul. That was a legit basketball play. So all coaches are hypocrites. I just, just spare me. I said it nicely. I was like, I'll wait for player X to do it, but what's your. Where are we on push off?
- [79:35]
B
Well, one, one of the most iconic shots we've ever had has come off of a push off.
- [79:39]
A
Don't you dare. Don't you dare.
- [79:43]
B
But nonetheless, I think the, for me, it's, it's one. The arm is fully extended, right? Like the way I always kind of thought it was like if you had your elbows bent and kind of. But when you fully extend, that's when it's, it's. It's got to be called. And in that area, for me personally, I generally wish they'd give the defense a little more latitude in defending. Like, it's, it's those, the push offs is wild to me. Just an offensive player throwing his body into a defender and all of a sudden that's a foul call. And it's. I don't know what the defense is supposed to do. Like, we need to kind of find a way. But the, the push off stuff is to me, once you extend your arm, that's an offensive foul and that needs to be called and that needs to be more consistent. When you talk about Jalen Brown getting away with three and then getting the, the. Probably the, the least aggressive one gets called, it's because the coach on the other side was probably harping on the ref and as soon as he finally saw it, he blew the whistle. I just think we need to just be more consistent with what are we
- [80:43]
A
going to call Amen. On the Thunder Villains thing, when Bill said that, I was like, I'm pretty sure I've already talked about this. And it was on December 11th. I had an episode with Howard Beck and it was right after they had played Phoenix and Chet and Grayson Allen, another great villain, by the way, had gotten into a couple of shoving matches. I think some might have gotten ejected. There were definitely technicals issued. There was multiple just out of your way to shove people. And I talked about that at that point. They were like 22 and 1 or something crazy. And I Talked about, like, I love this. I love that they're lean. They seem to be leaning in, if not to all out villainy, because what I said on that pod I think still holds true today. If they're villains, it's because the best team always becomes something of a villain. The rest of the league begins to root against them and you begin to find things that you just don't like about them because you're. They're the one everyone is aiming for. But they also have played from day one of this season. Like, give us your best shot. We know, we know, like, we know everyone's coming for us now we're champions. We know we play super physical and everyone hates it and thinks the refs don't call enough fouls on us. We know we're going to try to win every single game. And this is when they were 24 and 1, 23 and 1. We want, we're. We're like actually, they played like a team who was actually chasing 70 wins. Like we won 68 last year. We want 70. Not only do we want to beat you, we want to take the ball from you so many times that you just give up running your offense. We want to make you basically quit in an NBA game and just go through the motions for the rest of the game. And they have an edge. They, they mean mug. They. Now Dort's play was, was dirty, no question. But I like it. And I'm, I'm all for a little NBA villainy. It's more fun.
- [82:32]
B
And you got to respect the way they attack the season to start the year. Like, just the way everything you said is right on. Like, there's just no, like, at some point where, you know, there's always the question of like, do they take their foot off the gas a little bit now that they've won? Like, no. They were full throttle from the beginning and you got to give them a lot of that kind of like, respect in that regard. I appreciate that they do that. And there are times, yes, I get frustrated with the Thunder and you know, the whole media apparatus around it where sometimes it feels very propagandist. But like, I think, you know, ultimately like, they're just, they're a good ass team at the end of the day and you can't be mad at the fact that Sam Presti built this team with not just a boatload of assets that they can go ahead and make a trade and get Jared McCain for. And basically, I think if anybody came to the table with a little bit of a more offer they'd have just said cool, here's another second round pick. Like whatever. They would have. They would have gotten him at the end of the day and then he's nailed these draft picks. He's nailed his signings. Turning Giddy into Alex Caruso is a win. The Hartenstein stuff we haven't even I mean case on Wallace, the whole like all these guys, AJ Mitchell, everything Wiggins, all that stuff. You got to give them credit. They've done all these things right and
- [83:53]
A
they were in the position they were when the Clippers needed Paul George and they leveraged it for everything they had. And by the way they the most underrated. It's not underrated but they deserve a lot of credit for getting Paul George. People were like Oklahoma City Paul George wow. And they they made a good asset play to keep their team afloat in in the playoffs with Russ Post KD and it worked. And then they flipped him for what the anyway Denver lot at stake for Denver, very expensive team. Aaron Gordon's 30 jokic is 30 something 30, 31. They're already at the first apron next year before you account for any Valentunas, Peyton Watson, Bruce Brown, Tim Hardaway Jr. They are out three first future first round picks already including the one they attached to Michael Porter Jr. So all these teams have all these the stakes are big. Last thing Darius Garland made his debut for the Clippers last night. The Clippers with a huge come from behind win against the warriors that has major play in implications. The the Clippers now lead the season series 21 and are only a game behind the warriors for the 78 spot. I mean they need the 78 versus 910 is huge. What did you think of Darius Garland's first 23 minutes as an LA Clipper?
- [85:09]
B
Well, the first three minutes were an utter disaster. Like in the way he had two turnovers right off. I don't know if it was right off the bat but back to back right one where Moses Moody just completely ripped the ball right out of his hands as he was trying to drive and then the other one he gets trapped on along the sidelines and ends up turning it over. Finished with five turnovers. I like to go five and a half because he got forced into a jump ball in that situation. Besides that, like once he started to find his groove after the first stint, he looked much more comfortable, a little bit more fluid in the way he was doing it. We should mention he started, he came
- [85:47]
A
off the bench, came off the bench
- [85:49]
B
and that's easier to manage. Minutes. Because he's on a minutes restriction. They're going to work him in slowly with all that stuff. He wasn't. He didn't. His first stint wasn't paired with Kawhi was. Mathurin was. He was paired with Mathurin, I think, in that first stint and they just didn't have any sort of fluidity with that. Once he was paired with Kawhi, he started to kind of see how this slowly starts to work. He didn't have a great game, but he was pretty. It was pretty good. Like I was. If I'm a Clipper fan, I'm encouraged. I'm like, okay, I like what I saw after that. The turnovers are one thing. He missed a couple of clean looks. He had some stuff where he created a good he got the ball along the sidelines off of a pass from Kawhi, drives middle, kicks it out, relocates to the top of the three. Had a great pass from Kobe Sanders. It was a wide open three. He missed it. But that's like, yo, that's what you want to see. Those are the things you got to like. I liked what I saw so far. Far with the. I think you know there will be questions defensively for sure, but like offensively I think he's going to little rust find his way through, but I think there's some real promise there and just faster the pace.
- [86:52]
A
I loved you like they. They just need a little more juice in transition and he. And he brings that. They've never for. For better and and worse, they've not had a player like him in a very long time. They have steered away from small guards who are perhaps defensive liabilities and now they've invested somewhat big in one of them and they'll have to figure that out. But they also just haven't had like a just I mean a passer like shifty small guy step back. I mean Harden took a ton of threes but just played a totally different style than Darius Garland does. And even, even like you mentioned, he came in when Kawhi was out. Just anything. First of all, those minutes have been just a lot of piecemeal. Like, all right, Jordan Miller, go to work. And he's been like good enough for sure. But now they have a little bit more of a okay, we can build an offense that's coherent around Garland and Mather and when Kawhi sits and when Kawhi plays just anything to take the load off him and get him easier shots and not have him have to create everything in the half Court is just given his on again, off again health issues is just huge. And he even, I mean Garland wasn't even on the floor for it last night, but he got a rare bucket for him as the screener in a pick and roll and boy would I like to see a little bit more of that given that small guys are going to defend Garland and if you switch, Kawhi is just going to take you down into his office. I just, you know, I've talked about this before, but there was all the conspiracy theories when those trades were made, when the Zubac trade was made in Harden for Garland about how, my God, are they preparing for Armageddon? Are they preparing for Kawhi's contract to get voided? Are they doing right by Harden and Zubots to get them out of town? All hell breaks loose. Are they acquiring first round picks in preparation to forfeit first round picks? I don't know what's going to happen with the investigation. It's still going on. I don't know what their punishment is going to be. I don't know what they're bracing for. God knows they're not going to sit there and talk about it with me. I said then and I'll still say now. I think both trades made sense on the merits for a team that clearly had to start pivoting to the next era of itself without bottoming out because they don't control their picks and they have an owner who won't tolerate bottoming out anyway. I think these were both really good picks for them. The Zubots trade has unleashed Janik Coden Niederhauser who was awesome last night around the rim on defense and on offense and it looks like a very interesting prospect. And boy, that that pick and Garland is much younger than Harden. Ten years younger obviously. And that pick is just going to be so fun to watch in the lottery room. The Pacers right now are the numbers two seed in the lottery, but it's, it's really tight between Indiana, Brooklyn, Washington, Utah. It's going to be super tight. But by win percentage they have the second worst record right now. That would be. And remember it's top four protected. The Pacers keep it. If it's one to four, the Clippers get it. If it's five to nine right now the Pacers would have a 52% chance of that pick landing in the top four. They fall to three, it's the same 52%. They fall to four or rise to four. I don't even know what the proper Terminology is it drops to 48% that it's in the top four. So the odds shift a little bit to the Clippers. If they go to five, it's 42%. The odds now shift somewhat significantly towards the Clippers. God forbid they fall or rise to 6, which is about the ceiling for all these teams. It's 37% that it's in the top four and major edge to the Clippers. And by the way, all the tanking stuff remains ongoing behind closed doors in the league office. And I do think, I do think we're going to see if, if not, if not a seismic change that's bigger than all the band aids we've talked about. If not there were, they're at least going to get to the goal line on big, big changes and put it to a vote. My guess would be we see something more actually enacted than just the band aids we talked about. Like, you can't trade anything but a top four protected pick and a top 14 protected pick. I would bet on more significant change than that and maybe even in time for the 2027 draft. This draft they're not messing with. It's too late in the game. You could even argue next draft is a little early, given that people made trades based on rules that exist now. But I think change is coming.
- [91:12]
B
One more thing, though, about that trade with the Pacers. We always talk about the pick. We always talk about Zubac. We don't talk about Matron getting traded there. That was big for them, that he's been huge for them. He's won them in. He's won them games. He's kept them in games. There's, there's a. When we talk about Charlotte and having multiple ball handlers and guys, that is. It's not the same level. But now you have a third guy, too that can go drop dirty, you know, like, he can get hot and go completely nuts. Like, there's a, you know, we're talking about when Kawhi is off the floor, they're going to have Garland and Matheran together, you know, and there's. Now Matthew has to again, like it needs to be locked in defensively and things like that because you can't have those two both being tough positions defensively. But the fact is they've added another offensive player in their, their, their run. When we talk about their traits, Mather kind of, and I understand why Mather kind of gets lost a little bit in the shuffle. But let's not forget this dude was playing big games for the Pacers in the finals. He was a big piece for them in the, in their run and had some big nights. Like I feel sometimes we do. We don't give him enough attention on in that trade scenario.
- [92:25]
A
Totally agree. And in fact this is a great podcast topic for another day. Even better for building for me. But I would like to do it. We need to come up with a name for these guys who are kind of treated as throw ins. Salary matching, throw ins, whatever. Like, yeah, he's intriguing. Throw him in, throw ins. And are actually more than that in trades. Like the classic example is Chris Middleton who just kind of got tossed in to the Brandon Knight Brandon Jennings trade and turned into by far the best player in it. But like Markkanen in, in the Donovan Mitchell hoopla, when he gets traded to Cleveland, all the focus is on the picks and this and that. And like Markkanen was, it took like a, like in the initial write ups of those trades he's like, yeah, it's kind of a fun flyer on Lowry Markkane. He turns into an awesome player. Matheran I don't think will ever get nearly as good as Markkanen is. But you know, you, you in and all the focus ends up being on the best player and the picks and justifiably so. Those are the most important. But it would be fun to go through all the history of trades and be like, who were. I mean Markkanen was probably better than a throw in, but at that point he had kind of washed out in Chicago. Felt like a disappointing lottery pick. Didn't really fit super well in Cleveland. And just he and Sexton both were like, hey, whatever it takes, just whatever you want. And it's just, it's a really interesting dynamic of all, all these trades. By the way. Clippers total point differential for the season. Mo after what are they? They've played 60 games plus zero. A total flat zero. Very fitting for the Clippers. Mo Daquil tell people where they can find you Offside, obviously is one of them. Where else?
- [94:05]
B
Yeah, so do the videos on offside. Make sure you're. You're subscribing there offside. Gg go sign up to be a part of the app. I know you're an Android guy, Zach. We will have an Android app soon. You could sign up for the wait list there.
- [94:18]
A
Boy, did I get a lot of crap for that. I wasn't giving you crap.
- [94:21]
B
I was just telling you. I was just telling you that we're coming. We're going to help you out. You want to sign up. We got you there too. It's just a little bit later. Apple comes first and then we have after that double dribble podcast with Jared Dubin. We do it right now once a week. We're going to ramp up as we get going, you know, closer.
- [94:41]
A
Ramping up.
- [94:42]
B
Yeah, ramping up. I got to ramp up a little bit and get going there and then make sure you check out the association Weekend Edition on NBA TV on Saturday. I'm going to be there with Alexis Morgan, Zach Harper and myself. We just have a ton of fun going around the league. A lot of live lookings and overall and sometimes you might get an X's and Mo's at it.
- [95:01]
A
There you go, motaquil. Well, if you want to know what happened in the game you watched and why one team won and one team lost and what one coach was trying to accomplish, he is your follow. And we love our now Tuesdays with Mo. No alliteration like Mondays with Mo, but Tuesdays with Mo will do. Thank you, bud.
- [95:16]
B
Thank you.
- [95:20]
A
All right, that's it for today's episode of the Zach Lowe Show. We are back Thursday with a new episode Thursday. Thanks as always to the great Mo Takeil for his insight. Thanks to Jonathan, Mike and Billy on production. Thanks to you all for listening to and or watching the Zach Lowe Show. 21 or over in President select states for Kansas in Affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over in President D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MY RESET. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg or is it mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland? Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-Hopeny or text Hopeny in New York. For Louisiana, call 1-877-7707-8672 good and coffee creamers are made with farm fresh cream, real milk and contain 3 grams of sugar per serving. That's 40% less than the 5 grams
- [96:26]
B
per serving in leading traditional coffee creamers
- [96:29]
A
for a rich, delicious experience. Whether you enjoy your coffee hot, cold, bold or frothy, two good coffee creamers
- [96:36]
B
make every sip a good one. Two good coffee creamers Real goodness in every sip.
- [96:41]
A
Find them at your local Kroger in the creamer aisle.
- [96:46]
B
Close your eyes, exhale, feel your body
- [96:49]
A
relax and let go of whatever you're carrying today.
- [96:54]
B
Well, I'm letting go of the worry
- [96:55]
A
that I wouldn't get my new contacts in time for this class.
- [96:58]
B
I got them delivered free from 1-800-contacts.
- [97:00]
A
Oh, my gosh. They're so fast.
- [97:02]
B
And breathe. Oh, sorry.
- [97:04]
A
I almost couldn't breathe when I saw the discount they gave me on my first order. Oh, sorry. Namaste. Visit 1-800-contacts.com today to save on your first order, 1-800-contacts.