Chris Mannix (3:26)

We.

Zach Lowe (3:26)

That's the craziest game I've ever been to.

John Hollinger (3:28)

So first off, I, I've got to lean all the way into the fact that I did leave early, right? Like, and it was leave the arena.

Zach Lowe (3:37)

You just left press row.

John Hollinger (3:38)

Yeah, because when, as you know, like when you leave the Garden press seats, you. You've got to go through like the concourse. You've got to go down. I went down an escalator and I assumed it would be madness going down the escalator if I left right at the final buzzer. So I didn't just leave with 58 seconds left, Zach. I left with 2 minutes and 51 seconds left. Like when there was a 14 point lead.

Zach Lowe (4:05)

119, 105. Jalen Brunson, step back three. I'm like, I got the play by play up. I have to have it up.

John Hollinger (4:10)

I was gone. I was gone. I was out the door. And it gets worse. Like, when I was making my way down the escalator, I made an Instagram video praising Knicks fans for not leaving early. Like most arenas, you see fans with a double digit lead with a couple of minutes left and they're trying to beat the traffic. Not these Knicks fans. They're dedicated. I actually took like video of the vacant hallway that I was in, the vacant escalators that I was on. I was so complimentary of Knicks fans in that moment. So I get down to the pressure room and it's like an eight point game at that point. But, like, we'll unpack this. But, like, my reaction, like, the Neesmith stuff was some of the most incredible stuff that I've ever seen. To the point where, like, as I'm processing it in real time, when I'm writing, I'm like, texting members of the Celtics coaching staff from, like, the two years Aaron Neesmith was there. And I'm like, what did you guys miss? Like, what did you think this guy could happen? How did you not play him over Romeo Lankford all those minutes? Like, I'm, I. I'm going at guys from Brad Stevens staff, I'm going at guys from IME Udoka staff, like, just asking them how it's possible that this guy that couldn't get any burn his first couple of years in Boston all of a sudden is looking like game six clay.

Zach Lowe (5:32)

In game one, it wasn't even game six clay. Like, he fell over. Like, he was falling over on half the threes. He made five threes in like, what seemed like 10 seconds. So here's my version of that story. I was, look, I've been wrong about a lot of stuff, as we always are, right? I was famously on Aaron N.E. smith island when he was in Boston to the point that in the first Boston Heat series of this post bubble era, like 22, I don't remember what year was. He wasn't playing. He got in like one game and blocked Tyler Hero at the rim and blah, blah. I was in Miami for a game and he was standing with his agent, Mike Lindeman, after the game. And Mike was like, hey, come introduce you. Mike knew that I had been on Aaron Ne with my. I talked about it on my podcast that he needed to play more. I didn't understand why he was never playing. Not a greater guy chance. And he waves me. He was like, you got to introduce yourself to Aaron. So we. He's like, aaron, this is the guy who's been saying like, that you should be playing. I walk into the locker room last night. I haven't talked to Aaron D. Smith in like three years. And I go to prepare to introduce myself to him, like, hey, Aaron, I'm Zach. And he's like, dude, my man, Aaron Nesmith Island. Like, someone sent me a podcast clip again of you saying it. He remembered exactly who I was. And I'm like, this is like, this is the. And he's just on his phone just checking messages. If I had done that, if I had done that in that game, in a game of that nature, in a game that should have been over. Not just when we're talking about it being over, but it felt over when the Knicks went on a gigantic run with Brunson on the bench with five fouls and OGN and Obi had a spectacular game right up until he didn't on defense put the game seemingly in safe hands. If I had done that, I only. I would have already been at, at the bar across the street chugging beers and talking all my shit to every. I probably would have gotten murdered by a mob of Knicks fans. Aaron Espas is just on his phone like hey, what's up? I remember you checking. I couldn't believe.

John Hollinger (7:24)

Was it was wild and like I woke up this morning because you know, most of these coaches are on vacation or in bed or whatever and I woke up this morning to like a flurry of responses, some of which were like, you know, shut the hell up. Like what do you. We did. We didn't know back then but someone was like this guy. One coach texted me back and was like this guy was a bowling ball on defense who, who tried harder than everybody else on the team but just couldn't put it all together somehow with the last three years in Indiana. Look, and in fairness he was like a 30ish percent 3 point shooter in Boston. The last year was 20 something and evolved into a 40/% 3 point shooter in, in Indiana. It's just, it's remarkable. He is, I don't know where you put him up there, but in terms of two way players, he's one of the best two way players right now. You know, certainly left in the playoffs, maybe on a short list in the game, but just unbelievable.

Zach Lowe (8:16)

Well, he, he still doesn't really do much like creatively off the dribble or anything which is one reason why Brunson is on him. And I still think the Pacers can probably use him more as a screener and other ways to hunt Brunson. But we're not going to talk about strategy quite yet. Here are some of the things that happened to me. Yes, just some of the scenes from a day where if this had been a movie and I was watching this game on press row, some director would have done a cool trick where like my teenage face flickers on the screen in replacing in replacement my adult face because like I can't believe I'm watching 30 years later, 25 years later the Pacers Knicks is like my coming of age as an NBA fan. And all these years later, I'm watching another classic in Madison Square Garden and another Pacer. Two Pacers, really nice with. And Halliburton putting together an insane run of shots, culminating in a misapplied choke sign. And by the way, I. I'm not going to say who, but I had one basketball luminary this morning educating me on what aura. Aura farming is. Did you know about this? Tyrese Halburn did not know what that was. And this person who I will not name was like, did you. Do you know this? My niece told me what this was. I'm like, I have no idea. But he said that. I'm like, I'm. I don't. Okay. So my day began with some meetings at the Pacers hotel with some. With some people with the Pacers. And they're re. They're just. We're talking about the Comebacks against Milwaukee and Cleveland. And all of them were like, yeah, our team's just weird. This is what we do. Like, none of us surprises enough. If we literally, like, if we get down again like that, we're not going to be surprised if we do it again. And then, like, whatever. Then I walk out to go to the arena. And like, fans do. Fans have discovered where the Pacers are staying. Usually that scene is like, it's Pacers fans awaiting their favorite players or neutral fans just want to see NBA players getting on the bus. I walk out, there was a couple players in front of me getting on the bus on the way to the arena, and. And it's Knicks fans being like, nixon, six. What's up? Whatever, Nixon. And I'm like, oh, my God. After the game, one front office Pacers executive who I will not name, wanted to show me how sweaty he was underneath his blazer from the tension of the game. I don't want to see it. Another Pacers front office employee who is watching the game in the locker room admitted to me that when Tyrese hit the shot, not only did he think it was a three, he was so convinced it was a three, he ran from the locker room out into the tunnel screaming profanities that they had won the game. And then was like, oh, oh, it's a two. I mean, just the scenes are insane. Just. I can't even believe what I saw. I don't know. And this is a game where it's like, these are not the tropes that I usually buy into, but when you combine that, the Pacers just do this over and over again with the fact that the Pacers play a fast, random, relentless style. Like, I had someone with the Cavs tell me this week, I honestly think we were not prepared. And not prepared. Like there was a fault in coaching preparation. It's just their sheer relentlessness, I think, caught us off guard. Combined with the level of gut punch that was on your home floor. I am actually interested to see, like, what is the Knicks response to this? What is the Knicks response if they're up by 10 with two minutes to go in game two? Because you were there. Well, you weren't. You weren't still out there. But, like, when the crowd was hushing like sh. When Cat went to the line and an OBI went to the line and the people in the crowd were making the sh sound for everyone to be quiet so audibly that I was like, this is making me nervous, and I'm not the one shooting the free throws. That nervousness is going to be dialed up by like a hundredfold now. I don't know how the Knicks respond to this. I can't wait to see.

John Hollinger (12:08)

It was such a perfect storm of awfulness for the Knicks over those last 10 minutes. Because, like, up until, you know, start the fourth. The fourth quarter, the story after two and a half, three minutes is how the Pacers blew a golden opportunity to win the game. Jalen Brunson goes out with five fouls. Dumb fuck. Fifth foul on TJ McConnell. He goes out of the game. You start wondering, where is that offense going to come from? Oh, Jananoby rips off five points. The Knicks commit two. Or the pace commit two stupid fouls on three pointers. That's the story right there. And then just everything that could possibly go wrong after that goes wrong. Like Josh Hart falls, falls down. Defending N. Smith, Jalen Brunson commits uncharacteristic turnovers. Uh, Mikhail Bridges made some bad defensive plays. The two split free throws with Anoby and Carl Towns. Like, everything that could have gone wrong for the Knicks went wrong. I mean, I'd like to think that they can put this behind them because they're as mentally tough a team as I've seen in the postseason. Like, they've got some. Some dogs in that group. Guys that have been through a lot. And this year alone, like Bridges, what he's gone through in this year, Kat, what he's gone through over the last year, I'd like to think that they're mentally tough enough to come back from this, but I also think that they might not be as good as the Pacers. I mean, the Pacers, that unconventional style, playing 10, 11 guys, pressing like a college team. Like it's weird, but it works. And I look at this, I look at this matchup and, you know, I just. If I could pick the better team in this moment, I would still pick Indiana to be the better team. So I don't know, man. It's a long way of saying I think they're going to be able to mentally bounce back, but this just might be a really bad matchup for them.

Zach Lowe (14:02)

Overall, there was a lot of talk about. I saw a lot of talk and heard a lot of talk. I've rewatched the end of the game like seven times in the car home to Connecticut. I rewatched it four times and my brain was still breaking. There was a lot of talk about how the Knicks went into prevent mode on offense and how that cost them and actually don't really think that that is all that important. There were two possessions when they went into prevent mode. Well, they took time off the clock every time, but not every time. Actually, the two possessions I think people were talking about are Brunson misses a step back three over Ben Shepard after killing the clock. It's a good look. And he had just made that exact same shot the previous possession. The second one was 141 left to go. It's still 119, 111. Cat misses a catch and shoot three at the end of the shot clock. Great. Look like Brunson drew a double team kicked to heart who swung it to the cat. Great. Look, if you want to say they're in the bonus and they're up by whatever and they should be trying to get twos or get to the line. Okay, sure. Like Brunson did try to get twos and get to the line. He got almost triple teamed and was left to kick the ball out. Those are good shots. Other than that, they actually almost went too fast on some of these. Like BRUNSON Got a, a, a layup with 58 seconds left. I made just blew by shepherd, put him up by nine. The next possession they broke the press Cat laid the ball up in without wasting any time. Really hardly at all. Put them back up by eight. The next possession after that is when it all starts to go haywire, when again they go fast and Brunson hits Anobi under the rim with a pass that bounces a little high. Anunoby drops it. There's the challenge on the seakum. Loose ball. Like I don't think prevent offense had much to do with it. The Knicks lost the game on defense. They lost the game because their defense on those nice Smith threes, the switches were late, the communication was bad. They frankly looked like a team that was fatigued. They lost the game on defense again in overtime when an OBI did not box out. Siakam on a critical rebound and Tyrese Halberton scored on reset. A when Andrew Nemhart back cut Josh Hart for the go ahead layup. And then he deflects the ball out of bounds. You can go back and look at those knith threes. The defense just isn't there. This. There's just way too much space. Part of that, I think, is the Knicks. I don't know if they relaxed, but, like, it was almost as if they didn't know. What are we switching? Are we not switching? Part of that is you. I think you have to credit the Pacers. They play so fast and so randomly that things are just happening before you even know that they're happening. And as an example, like Siakam to knee Smith on, like, little pitch plays accounted for two of those threes in the last minute. Siakam is sprinting the ball up the floor, Drives right at an OBI on one of them, drives right at an obi, gets in, and Obi backpedaling. Siakam stops on a dime, sets a screen, and pitches the ball to Neesmith in one motion. And an OBI is so far into the paint because he was defending a screeching, fast Siakam drive that he can't get back out there on the other side of the screen, Siakam looks like Draymond Green in some of those threes doing the exact same stuff. And the communication was there, but credit to Pacers. Another one was they run up the floor. I don't even remember which one this was. They run up the floor. And I think it was. It was 2:04 left in the game. They're. They're down by 11 at this point. They sprint up the floor and run a Halberton Ben shepherd pick and roll with, like 20 on the shot clock. And I guarantee you the Knicks were not ready for a Ben Shepherd. Ben shepherd was even in the game until like, three minutes before Ben Shepard slips the screen, catches a pass on the move, kicks it to N.E. smith, and it's like, what. What just happened, Ben? She like. I think the Pacers deserve a lot of credit for foisting those breakdowns on the Knicks. And at the same time, after, like, the second nith three, you've got to be like, we got to tighten up. What is our coverage on this stuff? What are we doing? And the Knicks defense just was not good enough in regulation. And at the end of overtime, that's where to me, they lost the game. And the Pacers deserve a lot of.

John Hollinger (18:14)

Credit for that too, I think, I think yes. And I think that this was a game that Rick Carlisle coach circles around Tom Thibodeau. I, I thought this was a really good Rick Carlisle coaching game. And I'll give you a couple things that stood out to me in addition to what you said there. It's subtle, but, like, the use of challenges in this game turned out to be really important. Like, Tibbs wasted his challenge early on an idiotic challenge. Like the f, like the, the play on Brunson that they lost the challenge.

Zach Lowe (18:45)

I don't, I don't even, I honestly don't even remember off the top.

John Hollinger (18:48)

It was like it was an offensive foul. Brunson on N. Smith, where Brunson gave kind of a shoulder shrug. And you can see it on replay where he's extending his arm even though it's close when you do the arm extend. No referee is going to overturn that. That was a waste. They lost the challenge. Couldn't use any of the rest of the game. The Pacers used two challenges at the very end that turned out to be huge, huge challenges. There was the, the foul call on Siakam, on Anobi, which they got right. He got the ball first on there. There was the out of bounds play that if either one of those goes against Indiana, that game's over. They don't win that game. They needed both of those calls to, to go their way. The other one, I, I still. And I was in the, the tips press conference. I didn't get a chance to. I think he was asked about it, but kind of gave a grunt for an answer. But the decision not to foul Obi Toppin at the end of, of overtime when Toppit had a kind of a straight line to the basket there for that dunk to put him up three.

Zach Lowe (19:41)

Well, they did foul him. He got fouled twice. And they didn't call it well.

John Hollinger (19:45)

I mean, they didn't like when he made the catch. They didn't aggressively go for him in that moment. Like. And I was, I'm like, you like, I was texting like a bunch of different assistants in real time. And I, I think what Tibbs was trying to do early was to get one trap in with 14 seconds left. You know, get see if you can get a steal and then go for it. But that blew up in their face enormously. Like getting that dunk, you know, that was, you know, it wasn't the game, but that was the, a decisive play at the end of overtime. And I give Rick Carla a lot of credit for, for all the things you were talking about that he drew up and, and confused the Knicks on with those open looks they got at the end of the fourth quarter and like the use of challenges. Like I think about this stuff all the time with challenges. Like I coaches that use their challenge early in games. I don't get it. Like you need to save all your weaponry for end of fourth quarter and potential overtime. Like occasionally, yeah, if you got a third foul on the superstar, you got to keep him in the game, then I understand using a challenge. But Tibbs wasted his challenge early on a nothing offensive foul call on Jalen Brunson. And Rick Carlisle had two of his in the bag, used them and that helped the Pacers win the game.

Zach Lowe (20:49)

It's incredible that the top and dunk on which the Knicks don't foul intentionally but do foul him at the rim like blatantly.

John Hollinger (20:57)

Oh yeah, grab the and he should.

Zach Lowe (21:00)

Get an and one. And if he makes the free throw, it's a four point game and it's over. And he doesn't get a free throw. And then Rick Carlisle does not foul up three and the Knicks get two great looks given the situation at the basket. Brunson and then Towns and miss both of them. The top and non call into those missed threes is like the 18th craziest thing that happened in the game. In most games that's the craziest thing that happens. And that was like not even in the top 10.

John Hollinger (21:27)

Wild.

Zach Lowe (21:28)

Well, I mean can we, can we talk? We haven't even talked about the most underrated crazy sequence of the game. And boy am I looking forward to the last two minute report. Because despite all this, despite the collapse in regulation, despite, despite all of it, the Knicks go up four in overtime. About half, about two minutes in, Andrew Nebart draws cat on a switch, beats him off the dribble. Help comes, he bounces it to Miles Turner at the foul line. Miles Turner just drops the ball, Drops the ball down 4. Jalen Brunson run out, layup. And damned if I am not 100% sure Miles Turner blocks it at the backboard. Is it a goaltend? Is it not a goaltend? TNT only showed one angle of it, if you and I, I know for a fact that they are now looking at every angle that they have to see for the last two minute report what it should have been. If you, I don't know what it's going to say. Have you rewatched it?

John Hollinger (22:21)

Yeah, I thought it was a clear goaltend.

Zach Lowe (22:23)

I, I thought if you had, if you had to bet, if you had to force me to bet money. I'm betting money. It was a goal 10. Almost nobody was even talking about the play after the game. That and then so the Knicks could go up six. Instead, Nemhardt hits a three in transition to cut it to one. That might be the single most important moment of the entire game. I'm going to bet the last two minute report says it was a missed goaltend. They can't review it. The refs can't. The refs can review it voluntarily if they call a goaltend. If they call nothing, they can't review it. If they call nothing, there's nothing to challenge. If the Knicks had a challenge, which they didn't. I, I just think that is a, like that frozen moment is going to get lost. And now the bitter Knicks fans, it won't get lost with them. I, I, that happens so fast. And the NE part three comes and I'm like, what? It, it was one of those moments where you're watching like, wait, what just happened? Could I call, can we stop for a second? What the hell just happened? What a swing.

John Hollinger (23:21)

Well, this is why the reflex of officials in those moments is to call the goaltent because then they can review it and make sure that they got it right. Like you said, when they don't call the goaltenders, no choice. Like there was some confusion I saw watching it back on the TNT broadcast. The TNT broadcast thought the stoppage of play was reviewing the goaltender, when in reality they were watching the line. Like the referees, they can stop the play to look and see if the Nemhardt shot, if his foot was on the line or not. In those situations. That's what they were reviewing. Yeah, I, when I talk to referees and people in the NBA about that particular call, they'll tell me, like, you know, if it's close, they're going to try to call the goaltend so they can go back and review it and see if it was an actual goaltender, a legal play. That was a, another, you know, another game changer in that moment because Nemar did come down, change the momentum once again. And like I said, it was a perfect storm man, like, everything went right for the Indiana Pacers and everything went wrong for the New York Knicks.

Zach Lowe (24:20)

There are a couple other things I just want to say about the feeling of the game and the feeling of these Pacers who are beginning, even among hardcore basketball, analytically minded people, beginning to give off a vibe of like, is this just a destiny season? Like, is this just. Is this just going to keep going like this? Number one, the Halliburton shot, it bounces so high that it's off the television screen. You can't see the ball for like a split second. It. That's how high it goes. And it bounces back down and perfectly through the center of the rim. Like, you could not script a cleaner path through the net. And I'm. I was. We were all standing at that point. And maybe it's because we're all trained by the Kawhi shot. In 2019, when that thing hit the rim and went up, there was not one ounce of my soul who was ready to book it as a miss. I'm like, I am watching this like a hawk the whole way through. And the other thing, I'm watching like a hawk. These fucking Pacers, Excuse my. Not. Excuse my language. These fucking Pacers have me watching for free throw lane violations like I'm a goddamn tennis line judge. Like, every free throw late in the game, I'm like, zeroed in on all the guys. Is there a lane violation? Who's boxing out? Who? It's just. These games are just insane. This is the craziest one of three, but all three. I mean, they tweeted something. I got to find the tweet. There's the record. They're like, they have three of the four wins in NBA history out of thousands and thousands and thousands of games where you're down X with X left.

John Hollinger (25:57)

And you win the game, it's down 7 with less than a minute to go. Their record is like 4 and 1640. And the Pacers have three of those wins in this postseason. And I think that they're the first team out of like 900 and something to be down like 14 with under two minutes left in the playoffs and still win a game. Like, they are the team of destiny stuff is. Is legitimate because they are. They're doing things that really nobody has. Has ever seen before up until this point. I mean, it. That. That moment, like, I'm with you, like, because. Because I left and I was sitting there in the press room with. And I'm gonna throw these people under the bus with Howard Beck. With Rachel Nichols, with Dan Divine. A whole bunch of people, Michael Pina all gathered around the tv.

Zach Lowe (26:43)

Everyone left. I was like. I was like Travolta in Pulp Fiction, looking around for someone to talk to.

John Hollinger (26:48)

You're the last man standing, dude. But we're watching it like you said on tv, the ball goes up and it's up in the air and the crowd reaction is like a split second ahead of the tv. So we can hear the crowd roar for a second, you know, a brief second thinking it's a miss, then go. And the air come out of them as the ball drops in the hoop. And then, I mean, just to have. Just to have Halliburton, who, you know, was waiting for the opportunity to do that chokesign. I don't know how long he's been waiting. Months, years. His whole life since he watched Winning time back in 2010. But he's been waiting for this kind of opportunity to do that, to do that with Reggie like 15ft away and Reggie on the broadcast go, just laughing, laughing.

Zach Lowe (27:31)

He had no words. He just laughed.

John Hollinger (27:33)

He had no words. He just starts laughing. To do it in that moment, I mean, you could not have scripted outside of his toe, you know, being Kevin Durant size and just, just barely missing the edge of that three point line, you couldn't have scripted it any better.

Zach Lowe (27:48)

So let's also take a second to remark on the fact that down to Halliburton, drove into the lane, saw Mitchell Robinson and did just a straight up U turn. Just like, you know what? Fuck this, I'm going for three. Just a straight up direct 100, 360 degree U turn backwards. Like, you don't see NBA players just go backwards a lot. And it was like, I'm just shooting a three and I. There was no part of me that thought it was a two, thought it was a three in real time. From way up in my perch, I was like, this is the most unbelievable shot I've ever seen. I didn't even see him do the choke sign because. Because I. I'm too far up to see it. And look, I guess there was like Rick Carlisle pseudo defended him for using the choke sign and said, tyrese has earned the right to the. Like, does anyone. Is anyone mad that he used the choke sign? It's.

John Hollinger (28:44)

He was led into that. He was led into that. That answer. I think somebody asked him, which I think is idiotic. Like, who cares? Like, that's what you do. I mean, everybody celebrates after, like, does anybody get mad when Jalen Brunson you know, does the face thing after he makes a big show, like, big deal.

Zach Lowe (28:59)

Can we also let Tyrese's father back into the games? Because if the Pacers are going to be doing this and he's. And Tyrese, his son is going to be making shots like this. Let him back into the game. Let him back into the game at Giannis. It was a little embarrassing. Let him back in the games.

John Hollinger (29:15)

No, I go the other way on that one. I mean he could have started another malice in the palace right there. Like imagine Giannis doesn't have a little more self control and just punches. And I assume he knew that was Halliburton's dad in that moment, but if he didn't, he could have dropped him like, you know, Jermaine o' Neill dropped.

Zach Lowe (29:32)

Your cold logic is probably correct. Before we move on to what comes next, any, any other memories from this game or things that stood out from the game itself or before we move on from game one and look a little bit ahead to game, is there anything you else you wanted to say about this game?

John Hollinger (29:50)

I think, I think we covered. I mean, I would add to like you brought it up right there. The incredible, incredibleness of Halliburton with seven and change seconds left, dribbling the length of the floor, getting past Bridges, who made a bad defensive play on that, tried to go for that reach around there. Seeing Mitchell Robinson in real time deciding in a split second that he wasn't going to take this shot, backing up and shooting kind of a one footer like it was. It wasn't like the set shot that he took beyond the three point like it was a wild shot. In fact, like, you know, every coach will tell you that was a bad decision that Tyrese Halliburton made. Like you see Mitchell Robinson go to the basket, try to create contract, try to get an easy bucket or go to the free throw line. He chooses to do a 180 wheel around and go back behind the three point line. That was absolutely wild. One of the wildest decisions that I've seen these playoffs.

Zach Lowe (30:43)

We do have to talk about. I agree. We do have to talk about one more thing, which is Tibbs decision to foul up three starting with 12.1 seconds left in the game. It's, it's a three point game after Kat misses a second free throw. Timeout. Pacers inbound the ball and I'm sitting there like, are they going to foul? Is it too early to foul? I'm generally like 8 seconds is my borderline. Dagnol got Hammered for this, including by me in Game 1 of the Thunder Nuggets series. And with 12.1 seconds left, they start to play the foul game. New Smith makes 2 out of 3, then they inbound the ball and an OBI gets fouled with 7 seconds left. And. And. And there we go. Then Tyrese makes his shot. Was that too early for you? What did you think of that?

John Hollinger (31:32)

Yeah, I thought it was too early. And who was it OG that made the. Committed the foul? Like he went for it right away? Yes, like he went for the file. So that was clearly the instructions coming out of the huddle. I would have liked to have seen OG kind of once he got Neesmith in front of him, square him up there, let him kind of pivot, let him move around. Obviously you've got to. It's a tough. It's a tough play to make there because you've got to be careful not to follow on the three point shot. So in. In a sense, he. He got it right because he got him early before Neesmith went up into the shooting motion. But that was way too much time left in the clock. It allowed way too much to happen over the next two possessions. Yeah, I thought it was too early. I think in hindsight, you want to let him dribble 4, 5, 6 times, get it down to 7, 8 seconds, and then you pick up the foul that cost the Knicks for sure.

Zach Lowe (32:24)

Also, like not even in the top 20 of Crazy Things that happened during that entire sequence when the Pacers fouled Cat intentionally, the Knicks almost threw the inbounds pass away. And. And then before the Pacers fouled in and Obi intentionally, Jalen Brunson almost threw it away trying to save it off of a Pacers person in a double team. And it hit nobody and bounced high in the air right to Anunoby. And you're like, that ball, Zach, what is happening?

John Hollinger (32:50)

That ball was like just bouncing around for like three seconds when. When Brunson threw it, he tried to whack it off him out of bounds and it just bounced in the middle of the court until finally see a white jersey come up and grab it. Like, there was so many wild sequences that went down in that game.

Zach Lowe (33:06)

All right, I'm going to contradict myself a little bit and say this. I didn't mind the decision to foul up three. And I can hear the Thunder fan saying, well, I don't understand. Why did you mind Dagnalt doing it with a little bit more time, but not much more time. A couple reasons. Number one, The Nuggets are a horrible three point shooting team and the Pacers are an incredible shot making team from everywhere on the floor. And I'm absolutely terrified of them getting a game tying three even at home. Number. I'm not saying I love the decision, but I understood and didn't mind it. Number two. Part of the criticism I had of Dagnal was the second foul up three with like 10 seconds left. Jokic was stuck on the bench with no way to get back into the game. That was my primary beef with that one. I understood it. I don't, I don't love fouling up three that. I mean, I was surprised the Pacers didn't foul up three late in the game and it almost cost them. But anyway, okay, like, I guess we got to talk about game two because the series is still going on. What, what are you going to look for in game two other than how the Knicks come out? Is there any adjustments? Is there anything you have in mind?

John Hollinger (34:13)

I don't know if you need to adjust too much or do anything radical. I mean, Brunson had an outstanding game. Towns had a strong game. OG didn't play well.

Zach Lowe (34:24)

78 combined points for those two guys. 78 combined points.

John Hollinger (34:28)

Your stars showed up. OG was inconsistent for three quarters, but he made those big buckets in the fourth. I don't know, I mean, big picture, like, I don't overreact to the outcome of that game. Like, I just, I'd get my team mentally past it and say, look, we did a lot of things right in this game. We had a big opportunity with the kind of lead that we had in that moment. We just gagged it away with uncharacteristically bad plays. I mean, you think about it, not just, not just any team. Zach, that has a 14 point lead. A team with Jalen Brunson on it has a 14 point lead with two minutes left. That's the last team in the NBA right now that you would expect to blow a lead like that. I don't, I don't overreact to too much in this moment. You obviously want to shift some coverages there. You can't let niece Smith get off like that. You know, I think TJ McConnell on Jalen Brunson is a mistake that, that didn't really work very much in, in Game one for, for the Pacers anyway. So maybe you try to take advantage of that more if they go back to that. Well, but otherwise I just think you try to put it past you mentally and, and go into game Two with the same mindset.

Zach Lowe (35:41)

Yeah, both teams. I mean, it was an offense. The offensive ratings are off the charts. These are two teams whose offenses are better than their defenses. And for the first time really in the whole playoffs almost, the Knicks offense looked pretty comfortable against the Pacers defense. I thought both teams hunted the. It's almost like a mirror image kind of series where, you know, each offense is going to hunt the opposing point guard fairly relentlessly. The Knicks hunting Halliburton, the Pacers hunting Brunson. Actually, a little bit.

John Hollinger (36:13)

I've got an adjustment. I've got a. I just thought of that. The adjustment is like, I think you were about to go there, but so sorry. But the hunting Halliburton would be one adjustment I would make if I was New York. That, that was one that kept coming up in some of my, my text messages over the course of the game. And look, the Pacers, they're able to avoid that hunt a lot by pressing, like by forcing the, the Knicks to get into offense late. It takes away some of the ability to kind of look for those matchups. Plus, I think Brunson kind of likes going up against the Nemhartz. I think he, he kind of likes that matchup. But if I'm New York, I've got to try to take advantage of Halliburton because every time he wound up in a bad matchup against Brunson or against Cat, he either fouled or looked bad on it. He's just not defensively capable of playing on that level. So that would be one. Finding Halliburton more on the floor, hunting him, maybe getting him into foul trouble. I would try to go for that more.

Zach Lowe (37:07)

So here are some numbers. According to the tracking data, Halliburton was defending the screener on the pick and roll nine times and defending the ball handler in a pick and roll only five times. Now they obviously have him hiding on Hart and Bridges and which of those he's hiding on is critical. And it was more towards Hart at the end of the game, which prevents Miles Turner from guarding Heart, which is an adjustment I keep waiting on for one of them to crack on who's guarding center. But we'll get there. So that's 14 combined pick and rolls, defend. And I actually think that that undersells the degree to which the Knicks went at Halliburton because I think they're missing some screens. But also like when he was on bridges, they posted up bridges a few times. They ran some off ball actions with Brunson and Bridges that kind of flummoxed the Pacers and got some good scores on cuts and all that. Brunson had to defend 23 pick and rolls as the screener defender and 12 more as the ball handler defender. So that's 35 compared to 14 for Halliburton. And as you said, like it's not just Halliburton. Like Brunson really likes the Nemhardt matchup and is hunting that one too. So. But I, so I think that's indicative of like the Knicks could dial that up a little bit. But again, offense wasn't the problem. The who cracks first on the pick and pop center thing is another sort of mirror image matchup. Just like in the regular season matchups for the most part, Miles Turner guarded Cat and Cat guarded Miles Turner and you know, the teams are still negotiating. How do we want to handle pick and pop jump shots. For the most part they didn't really do anything dramatic. There was a few late switches here or there. There was a few times where the Pacers would send a third guy flying into Town's vision or the Knicks would send a third guy flying into Turner's vision. I think both teams would be on the lookout for that. Both teams set a lot of those picks like super high on the floor, like a lot of half court picks to try to get the defense backpedaling and confused. But I do, I still think at some point one of these teams is going to crack and the Knicks are going to put Towns on Siakam or Towns on Neesmith or the Pacers are going to put Turner on Heart, which again is more complicated because that means Halliburton's guards got a guard somewhere else. I think the offenses are going to like what I'm fascinated by which team breaks first in that regard. And the last thing, Robinson Towns, just 12, just seven minutes together in the game plus 12 and seven minutes. I understand that Tibbs is probably like we cannot put ourselves at a speed deficit against this team. But Robinson is such a monster on the glass against a team that is absolutely paranoid about its rebounding. I want to again like more Robinson Towns comes at the expense of one of their core players. I felt that was like not quite enough of that.

John Hollinger (39:54)

I would agree with that. I kept looking at the rebounding numbers in real time during the game expecting them to be there'd be a bigger gap. They were closer than I thought they were. But it did feel like every time Robinson and Towns was on the floor there was second chance opportunities. They were just clogging up the middle. They were creating a lot of problems for Indiana on that glass. I would go back to that a little bit more. I mean Mitchell Robinson has been such a difference maker for them in the playoffs. Like what, what was he in the Boston series? Like plus 40 something in that, that series. Like he was awesome there and I think the more minutes you can give him I think would be the better. Look, the Knicks, they don't want, regardless of who's on the floor, they don't want to get into a fast paced game with, with Indiana. Like they want to slow the game down one way or the other. So if you can find a way to keep Robinson and Towns out there for, for longer minutes and not get, you know, the doors blown off you in transition, I would do it because I think, I think Robinson is going to lead to so many more second chance opportunities than the Knicks. They just eat the Pacers lunch on those second chance opportunities.

Zach Lowe (40:59)

Yeah, I mean just the offensive rebounding is a major area of concern for the Pacers. The Knicks had 13, I think last night, which they will live with if that's what it ends up being. I always want more Siakam involvement when it gets into the half court. He looked very comfortable posting up Bridges and Hart and they can get those switches. Anybody but Anunoby, basically. He looked super comfortable. I go at Brunson, whatever, inverted pick and rolls, whatever. I always, I always like that when the Pacers do that. And you know, there are some other other little things here or there but this is an offensive oriented series. It was an offensive oriented first game and it's just, I, I, I, I expected a long series, I expected a crazy series, I expected a dramatic series. I did not expect that. That was, we may, we may never see a game, I may never see a game in person like that again. And I was like acutely aware of it during the game.

John Hollinger (41:53)

You know, one of the notes I made during game one and we've seen this a little bit last year as well but like do you, when you watch Siaka and Anunoby go at each other, do you feel like you see in like a Toronto practice, like they both seem to know where the other one's trying to go there. Like and there's a couple of times I think Siakam had a couple of deflections when Anunoby was going to the rim. I think Adenobi had one good play on there. Like they just seem to know each other so well that it's kind of a wash on Those matchups when they go one on one there is, as.

Zach Lowe (42:22)

Toronto fans know all too well, a fun Toronto Raptors. What if coursing through these entire playoffs, I mean even Van Vliet having some big games for the Rockets and it, you know, look, the Raptors kind of bailed out of that team in some ways, maybe prematurely in some ways. I thought they waited a little too long once they made the decision and the trade return wasn't as strong as it was. There's an interesting discussion to be had about did they get a little overexuberant about a overexuberant about building everything around Scotty Barnes right away and be over paranoid about the next contracts for the an OB Seacom, Van Vliet group because those guys are all very good players. Maybe you can't keep three of them and if you keep two of them, what's the point? Like where are we going? You could explain it all the way. And if next year goes much better than expected for the Raptors and they're healthy and quickly has a big year, et cetera, like this will all be forgotten about. But Raptors fans, this is a tough watch right now for Raptors fans. It's a lot of, a lot of good memories slash like, like longing nostalgia. Any parting thoughts? Chris Mannix, have you recovered yet? Are you. Do you feel like you're going to need a nap today? What do we got?

John Hollinger (43:34)

All I can, I can say two things. One, I don't care what the score is in game two. I, I'll be sitting right beside you up there on the Chase Bridge. I'm not, I'm not getting out of my seat in game two. And that like I've been trying to think of like what I would compare that comeback to, of things that I've seen. And all I can go back to is the days my, my old ball boy days with the Celtics back in 2002 when the Celtics nets, I think it was game three of that conference semifinals or finals when the Celtics made that 21 point run to come back and have the greatest fourth quarter comeback at that point in NBA playoff history. That's the only thing I can compare it to. It was such a, such an improbable wild scene to witness firsthand, sort of firsthand from a TV in the press.

Zach Lowe (44:21)

Well, look, I mean I could compare it to Milwaukee, Indiana Round one, Cleveland, Indiana Round two. But I wasn't at either of those games. It's funny because, you know, even my dad texted me and he said like that that has to be the most exciting game that you've ever been to. And it was almost so bizarre that it wasn't as exciting as you would think it was until the moment when it became really exciting. And by that, I mean, like, forget the stakes for a second. Like, Warriors Cavs, Game 7. The score was so close for so long and this. That every single moment was tense for a long time. This. The score was so lopsided and with such little time left that the first couple of D. Smith threes, you're like, oh, that's weird. Like, that's happening. Okay, what's. What's going on here? And, like, your excitement had to catch up to the actual excitement level of the game. Like, it wasn't. I wasn't, like, feeling super tense until maybe the free throws with Kat at the line. I was like, all right, now this is real. It was just a bizarre set of emotions for me. Is just guy on press row, let alone someone playing in the game. Oh, my God.

John Hollinger (45:31)

Here's. Here's the last question I would ask you. And we debated this in the press room. Should the group of us have gone back to our seats at the start of overtime?

Zach Lowe (45:42)

Could you have? Or should you have?

John Hollinger (45:44)

Should. Should we have. We could have. We could have walked right back up and go back.

Zach Lowe (45:47)

No, I think. I think it's one of those. I think it's one of those decisions, like, you know, once you've made it, you've made it. You can't break up with a girl and then two days later be like, hey, I think. I think I made a mistake. Can you take me back? I think, because then you're gonna miss too much. It's gonna take too long to get up there. You gotta just watch the game. Okay. Chris Mannix, si.com Read them. Listen to him on open floor a lot. If you like boxing, he's your guy, too. I don't really follow boxing, but every once in a while, I pepper you with the question. Thanks for your time, buddy, and I'll see you next time.

John Hollinger (46:17)

Anytime. Zach.

Zach Lowe (46:19)

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John Hollinger (47:12)

This episode.

Zach Lowe (47:12)

Is brought to you by HubSpot. Growing a business can feel impossible, but HubSpot's customer platform can help. It's powered by a suite of AI tools called Breez, so you can generate more leads, close more deals, and scale your service fast. With breeze agents handling the busy work, customers are cutting sales cycles in half. That's a lot. And saving hours on work each week. Best of all, you can see the results in days, not months. Visit HubSpot.comai to learn more. All right, let's bring in a man that I have referred to before as the best to ever do it. The most important basketball analyst of the modern era, John Hollinger of the Athletic. My old friend, my old colleague. I'm. I'm not going to lie to you, John. The assignment today was let's each pick three teams. That general classification was. We sped by them a little too fast after they got eliminated. We threw them out of the playoff car, left them on the side of the road, didn't really think so hard about their play, their postseason offseason dilemmas. And I want to go back now that we only have one game and I. And revisit. And then the Knicks Pacers game happened. And I can't lie to you, my brain is somewhere in the bowels of Madison Square Garden. So if I suggest to you that the Kings should look into trading Jason Thompson for a protected first round pick or something like that, just, just bear with me because it's been. It's been a hell of a 24 hours, my friend. How are you doing?

Chris Mannix (48:36)

I'm doing great. I'm still recovering from that game as well.

Zach Lowe (48:40)

Oh, my God. Okay. I'm going to make the first draft pick in our off season because I'm greedy and I want to make sure we get to this team. And I'm not sure that you picked them.

Chris Mannix (48:50)

Okay.

Zach Lowe (48:50)

So again, the idea is teams that Were eliminated play in or play offs. And we just forgot about them. And we want to give them a little attention because they have some interesting dilemmas. My first pick is the Sacramento Kings.

Chris Mannix (49:02)

Ooh, okay.

Zach Lowe (49:05)

They have, you know, they ironic that we're bringing them up today after Tyrese Halliburton hits yet another iconic shot. Because you might remember, John, the Kings used to have an abundance of point guards once upon a time, a plethora of point guards. Now they have kind of none, depending on how you classify Malik Monk and Keon Ellis and Devin Carter, the guy that they drafted and who barely got in the rotation after injury. They have Demonis Sabonis looking around like, so do I play for like the Bulls now or is. Is this the Kings? What's going on? Do I, do I want to be here with all these years left on my contract? They have a couple free agents. They have a Keon Ellis team option decision. They have a. Zach Levine plays for the Kings. You forget that Zach Levine now plays for the Kings. Cause I kind of did. Extension decision. They just fired their coach mid season, hired a new coach, total front office turnover. Scott Perry is involved. All of a sudden. Vladi Divach might be involved. Jeremy Lamb is just lurking somewhere. What is this team doing? What are they going to do? What's interesting to you about my Sacramento King? Yeah, my Sacramento Kings.

Chris Mannix (50:12)

It's funny because they had this like three year window of competence where they were like a real team. And then they're like, no, no, no, let's go back to, let's go back to being the old Kings. Let's, you know, bring back all the people from the 2002 Kings to run the team and bring back Scott Perry who's, you know, it was Scott Perry with Vlad A. And then I don't think they could have done the press conference to bring back Vladi as the gm. So instead he's just like on the side whispering in Vivek's ear, right?

Zach Lowe (50:45)

Vivek is, is an interesting NBA character. Always keeps you on your toes in sacrament. How long do you think, do you think their search for Scott Perry as GM or whatever his title is, was longer than the Bulls search for Fred Hoiberg as coach all those years ago? Like, do you think they scoured the Japanese league for the best up and coming front office executives before landing on Scott Perry?

Chris Mannix (51:08)

They, they, they certainly were not, were not scouring, scouring Europe for, for promising Finnish coaches? Let's say that that was not part of their plan.

Zach Lowe (51:17)

Ooh, a Grizz A Grizz reference from my old Grizz buddy. Okay, so here's the, here's the, here's where we are the Kings. You're better at the cap stuff than I am. And also, again, my brain is somewhere up in the air with the basketball. On Tyrese Halliburton's last shot last night in regulation, the Kings are somewhere around $20 million below the luxury tax with, with nine guys under contract, so probably a little bit less than that. They got a deal, Keone Ellis, they've got some free agents, Trey Lyles, Laravia, who they're very limited in resigning. They owe their pick to Atlanta. They owe a 31 swap to the spurs, but they have a 27 pick unprotected from the spurs and a 31 pick unprotected from Minnesota, which was the real gem of the Dear and Fox trade. The second point guard out the door. And they have Sabonis on the books now through 2027, 2028, at almost $50 million that year. I just like what they have. The Keegan Murray extension decision. That's going to be a big number. Whatever it ends up being. Should it be, I mean, like, they're all, it's always a big number, right? Like, big is, I don't know how big, but is it going to be? If you had to go over under 29 and a half million starting salary, what are you going to predict?

Chris Mannix (52:31)

I think it should be under, I'm.

Zach Lowe (52:33)

Not saying should, I'm saying what, what is it going to be?

Chris Mannix (52:38)

I, I, I still go, I still go. I, I don't know. Should he be making what Devin Vassell gets?

Zach Lowe (52:48)

I mean, I don't, I mean he's, he was, I think, the biggest casualty of the DeRozan acquisition. And I had, I've had multiple front office executives from other teams over the last year be like, you know, again, he's a little bit of a polarizing player, but be like, you know, I think that guy's good and he's just kind of lost now there. He doesn't have a clear role offensively. He's less involved with the Sabonis two man game than he was even a year ago. But I just think like guys get paid big lottery picks who are successful and he's been relatively successful. Three point shot up and down. They just generally get high numbers. But I'm just more like, what's the pathway for this team to actually be? I mean, in a Western Conference, it just gets better and better every year. Like I just don't. I don't even know what this. It had an identity. The Beam team had an identity. The identity was like, maybe gonna top out with a first round playoff win at some point. I will go to my basketball analysis grave saying that they would have won that series against Golden State if Fox's finger had been healthy toward the end of the series, but he wasn't, and they lost. But it was at least something. Something that could attract fans, something that people could enjoy. Now I just don't even know what the team is other than, like, the Bulls 2.0, except Sabonis instead of Wujovich.

Chris Mannix (54:02)

And that may change.

Zach Lowe (54:04)

Maybe.

Chris Mannix (54:05)

Maybe that'll be the last part of it.

Zach Lowe (54:09)

Well, I have a bunch of fake Sabonis trades teed up. Should we do. I mean, but, like, before we do that, I mean.

Chris Mannix (54:17)

The whole question. Their direction is like, they're. They're the old Charlotte team that was chasing the eighth seed every year. I mean, that. That to me is what. That to me is what they are now because they don't want to tank, but they're not actually good. And they're just going to keep throwing.

Zach Lowe (54:35)

Stuff at the wall and like, you know this again, better than I do. But if they resign Murray for a big, even decent number, if they bring back Keon Ellis, you know, let's say 10 a year, Keon Ellis is good. Like, I think he should have played more last year. Yeah. And you factor in their draft pick next season and, you know, if they use like, the MLE in any of these offseasons or they re sign Lyles or whatever, like, they're going to be butting up against the tax in 26, 27. Like, and that's like a typical thing you see with all these teams who are kind of mediocre and wandering purgatory. And you do their caption, you're like, my God, they're going to be like, right at the Tax in two years. And, like, nobody wants to be that for a team that's. I mean, you just compared them to the Charlotte Hornets chasing the eighth seed. That's. That made my stomach hurt.

Chris Mannix (55:23)

I mean, is. Am I wrong? Like, the. The Kevin.

Zach Lowe (55:27)

So what do you do? Put your front office hat on. What do you do with this team? If you're Scott Perry? What. What is. I mean, if you're Scott Perry and you're given carte blanche, which you won't be because of Vivek, but, like, if you. Like, what should they actually do?

Chris Mannix (55:43)

I do think you have to figure out if there's a market for Sabonis. I think you're probably going to find out pretty quickly that there's not. Especially because that, I mean, that renegotiate and extend was so overexuberant on him. I think that was one of their original sins. You know, they have him on the book now even this year at 43.6. And even though Sabonis says he's a valuable player, he's made all star teams, he's very durable. But I just don't know that he's a flavor that a lot of other front offices like, as far as actually building the team around, there's a few guys like that that we're going to end up talking about, I think. And so you're almost stuck then trying to make the best out of this year, I think. I mean, you do have a little bit of float below the tax line. It's tough having a backup center making 10 now with. With Valent Shunas. That clogs things up too. I mean, can you get something for DeRozan at this point?

Zach Lowe (56:44)

I'm.

Chris Mannix (56:44)

I'm not. Not really sure what his market is either. He's kind of the same type of thing. Same thing with. With Lavine. Like, they have these guys that kind of other teams aren't super excited about having now.

Zach Lowe (56:57)

Now you're a cap genius and I'm a cap just. Okay. Mediocrity guy. Levine is at 47.5 million next year and has a player option for 49 in 26, 27, I believe. And he is extension eligible now. I believe they could do something and go to him like, hey, could you opt out and could you like decline the player option? Go down? Yeah, we'll extend you long term, but I'm just not sure what the price is. Where I want to be in the Zach Levine business for the next four or five years at, you know, again, if the number drops, it'll be 25% of the cap.

John Hollinger (57:36)

Something.

Zach Lowe (57:36)

But like, I just don't know where that is taking me and how actually movable that is. So I'm like. I would kind of lean towards. I'm just going to like play it out with Levine and see how the year goes.

Chris Mannix (57:46)

I would lean that way too.

Zach Lowe (57:48)

I.

Chris Mannix (57:49)

Because that would.

Zach Lowe (57:49)

Yeah, you.

Chris Mannix (57:50)

Could you make your life a little easier in 26, 27 if you say, have him opt out of that year and sign for like 3 for 35 or something, but then you have him for those extra years also. And I'm just not sure. What you're getting is, you know, he's be getting into his 30s then.

Zach Lowe (58:08)

So it's, I mean he's good and he had a nice bounce back year and his shooting numbers rocketed back up to where they were. It just because of the defense and because of the playmaking limitations. It just never seemed like he's good and he deserved to make the all star team or two that he made in the east the least. But I just, it just never seems to lead anywhere all of that. Interesting.

Chris Mannix (58:30)

I, I agree with you. He, he actually, I mean he did especially like right after the trade. He did play pretty well. But you. Yeah, it's, it's, it's hard to commit to that long term. Especially when you're counting on him to be your, your second best player. I guess that's a bonus as your best player.

Zach Lowe (58:51)

Like should we, Should I just do my fake Sabonis trades now?

Chris Mannix (58:56)

Yeah, let's go.

Zach Lowe (58:58)

I really enjoyed this. It was a great time. Okay. I'm going to save a couple of them for later because they touch on other teams. I'm just going to preemptively say this. Any Sabonis to Chicago for Vucovic and stuff. The league should step in and ban it. It should not be allowed. The team should not be allowed to trade for each other. The King should not be allowed to have Vuchevic, DeRozan and Levine on the same team. It should be banned, it should be vetoed, whatever the proper terminology is. And I actually think that's the trade that like makes the most theoretical sense. The Bulls get to grab like, oh my God, he's an all star win now. He's made all NBA win now team. The Kings get salary relief. Which of its deal is expiring. They get a stretch five. No, we're just going to know it's.

Chris Mannix (59:40)

The Lithuanian connection to Zach.

Zach Lowe (59:43)

That's true.

Chris Mannix (59:43)

Carnation.

Zach Lowe (59:46)

I'm just, I'm getting out in front of it and it should be banned.

Chris Mannix (59:50)

This was my one realistic sabonist trade.

Zach Lowe (59:54)

That was the one you had. Yes. All right. Can I give you the just an absolutely insane. Who says no to steal from my boss?

Chris Mannix (60:01)

Okay.

Zach Lowe (60:02)

And I know who says no is actually one of the players involved in this theoretical trade that I'm making up that may or may not even be legal. Who says no? Straight up Kevin Durant for Demonta Sabonis.

Chris Mannix (60:16)

Oh, that's spicy.

Zach Lowe (60:19)

Yeah.

Chris Mannix (60:20)

Durant.

Zach Lowe (60:20)

Just think, just think it. Just think Durant with threat. Durant say hell no. Obviously Durant will threaten to retire. But like, I can see the Suns fans being like, well, that sucks. We traded 19 million first round picks and Bridges and Cam Johnson for Durant. Cool. You're not getting that back. Right. You have no center of any consequence. You're. You hated every center you had on the team.

Chris Mannix (60:41)

Yep. You.

Zach Lowe (60:41)

You. I mean, look, I don't think they would ever do it because of what you said about Sabonis and how he kind of pins you into upper crust mediocrity. But I do think it's like not a crazy, theoretical. I mean, it is.

Chris Mannix (60:53)

I tell you what's not crazy is a three way trade where Sabonis ends up in Phoenix, Durant ends up someplace else, and Sacramento gets stuff.

Zach Lowe (61:04)

This is why I have, this is why I have you on, because you're, you're just thinking a step ahead of me. Okay, can I give you my favorite Sabonis destination and one that I think is actually somewhat realistic?

Chris Mannix (61:14)

Okay.

Zach Lowe (61:16)

And it's poetic. There are copious Sabonis to Portland trades that are workable. Make sense. Send Phoenix a center. I think you know who it might be. It's funny. No, no, that's a bonus for DeAndre. Well, but we can do, we can do Time Lord. We can, we can throw. Throw Time Lord in there if we need to. I think. I mean, I guess it's. It's a bridge burned with Ayton, but I mean, I know it's a bridge burned with Ayton. Yeah. But there. But Sabonis back to Portland. Sabonis makes sense in Portland. His dad played there. Like that would be kind of a fun one. But I don't, I don't necessarily know that there's a realistic roadmap to. I tried with New Orleans. They're just too funky. I can't get. I can't get there with New Orleans, so I don't know what. Poor kings. At the end of the day, the.

Chris Mannix (62:03)

The, the Portland one would be interesting if it didn't involve Ayton going back to Phoenix because I do think the Blazers want to, want to try to win this year. The other thing, it does jam up their cap at a time when their guys are starting to come up to get paid. So that's. That makes things a little tricky for them too. When you have Shaden Sharp coming up for an extension, you have Anthony Simon's contract running out. What are they going to do with him? So couple situations to work on there. If there was a way for them to move off of Jeremy Grant at the same Time or in another deal that happened kind of in the same timing. I think that would get really interesting.

Zach Lowe (62:49)

Yeah. Ayton. Ayton. I said bridge burned. I don't know why I said that. That's not relevant. But Ayton. Ayton to Sack for Sabonis actually kind of makes sense for. I don't know if it makes sense for Sacramento, but I don't mind that one there. You can throw Thibel and picks like there's a lot of ingredients you can throw around, but I don't know that there's any realistic appetite for that. I think it's. I think it's a good one.

Chris Mannix (63:15)

Yeah. I just. It's for Sack. They probably see that as too much of a reset unless they were getting Simons in it too. But then the Blazers need to figure out if they believe in Scoot enough to just make him a full time starter.

Zach Lowe (63:28)

Yeah, I, I think there's something there. It's. But, but you're right. The extras would probably kill it. The extras that Sacramento would want for, for, you know, an all star NBA level player. And then you would try to get like, is Portland going to try to get cute and throw Jeremy Grant in there somehow for salary relief? But I like that one. Okay. You pick a team. That's. I just, I feel bad for the Kings. That's all I am with the Kings. You pick a team.

Chris Mannix (63:53)

All right, here's one. We definitely drove right past Clippers.

Zach Lowe (63:59)

I did no. Almost no real prep other than my day to day living in this world prep on the Clippers. So I'm fascinated by what you see as the central questions for the Clippers. You take it away.

Chris Mannix (64:11)

James Harden, player option. Right. Made the all star team only on the books for 36 next year. So what, what do you do there? You, you actually are under the tax for the moment but you, you don't have a ton of flexibility. You, you were kind of proven to be good to a point with the roster. You had not really capable of making huge improvement unless you just bone somebody in a trade. Right. They did a great job to get this team back to the point. I think all of us thought the Clippers would win like 35 games this year.

Zach Lowe (64:53)

And I was dead wrong about their.

Chris Mannix (64:55)

They played great defense. They nailed all the role player signings. Like great job. I think they were looking at being a player at free agency for 26. And now Kawhi comes back and plays and looks sort of like the old Kawhi. And it makes you wonder. You Have a Norm Pal extension question. Had a great year, but he's in his 30s. He makes 20 this year. What. What do you really want to do there?

Zach Lowe (65:20)

So the most they can give him is. Is the 140% of that, right? Yeah.

Chris Mannix (65:24)

So they could bump him up to 28 in the 26, 27 season, which is probably, I mean, fair for what he did.

Zach Lowe (65:33)

It's fair. But my hunch would be my hunch. This is just an educated hunch. And. But maybe you disagree because Norm had a great year. Like, there was a whole Norm Powell should make the All Star team thing, which I didn't have him on my All Star team, but he was great. Borderline candidate. My hunch is they would value the flexibility, the cap flexibility, more than Norm at that. At that number. But I could be wrong.

Chris Mannix (65:56)

I tend to agree with you. Or do you sell high on him and that the most provocative thing is. Is now the time to cash in your Kawhi Leonard chips?

Zach Lowe (66:08)

You know, maybe a year ago on my old podcast, I had fake Kawhi Leonard trades. And some of them were good and some of them made sense. And a lot of the. I remember one was involving Minnesota, and obviously the landscape there has changed dramatically. You know, I just don't know that any other team has any faith that Kawhi Leonard will be healthy enough and healthy enough when it matters. And he was healthy late this season. Good to very good in the. Great to very good to just good at the end of the playoffs. I just don't know that there's going to be a trade there that appetizes the Clippers interest. Unless it's. Unless the Clippers are just doing it for, like, kind of what they did with Paul George, where it's like, we're willing to just sort of take a mini step back. And they didn't end up taking a step back. But, like, we. We think we can thread the needle of salary relief. Plus, not as big of a step back as you think we're going to take.

Chris Mannix (67:01)

Yeah, I think. I think it's hard. I think they probably. Even if they made the calls, I think they would find out, like you said, that people are so spooked by his injury history that you're just not going to get a whole lot. I mean, even the. I mean, even look at what the spurs got when Kawhi was awesome. Right. Cause people were worried about his knees. So I think that's. That's definitely an issue. But then. So what are you doing then? Are you. Are you pushing it out to say, well, maybe we'll be a cap player in 27. Instead, can you get James Harden to just sign for two years even, even if you give him a good, good number, probably a raise off his 36. Maybe go a little bit into the tax this year. Leave the norm thing kind of hanging. It's. There's some interesting questions here. And then they still need to do a little bit of work, I think, on the back end of the roster this off season. Get a real backup. 5 Right.

Zach Lowe (68:04)

Ben Simmons didn't cut it for you. My favorite thing was it the percentage of NBA people shrinks with every transaction. But it's. There's still like a solid plurality of NBA people who talk themselves into the Ben Simmons thing on a new team. I don't know like Ben Simmons, like he's bringing the ball up, he's spraying it out and I keep saying like I'll believe it when I see it. And sure enough, in the playoffs it's like, where's Ben Simmons? Oh, he's not. He doesn't. He doesn't play anymore. Clippers are interesting. You know, I never bought they're the second best team in the west kind of buzz. I picked the Nuggets in seven in the first round, but they were really, really good. And you know, I like, I don't know if they could have beaten Minnesota in a playoff series with Minnesota fully healthy like this, let alone Oklahoma City. My guess is they just run it back in some. You know, speaking of, speaking of things we ran past, I would be curious to get your take on this. One of the more. I don't know if it was strange. It was just like huh. Trades of the trade deadline was the Bogdanovich Terrence man trade where the Clippers also got three second round picks in that trade. Now Bogey's contract I believe runs a little. No, man.

Chris Mannix (69:18)

No it doesn't. Man had the bad contract. Yeah.

Zach Lowe (69:21)

Bad is strong. Just longer. Right. What did you think of that trade? That was a strange. Yeah. MAN's contract is 16 million guaranteed in 2028. Bogeys is team option 26.

Chris Mannix (69:31)

Team option 26. Yeah.

Zach Lowe (69:33)

So significantly shorter. Yeah.

Chris Mannix (69:35)

The Clippers side man to that extension regretted it pretty quickly and then were able to get off of it and get assets. I think the Hawks overreacted to how bad Bogdanovich looked in the first half of last season. I mean he wasn't feeling great physically and like he was. He was really struggling. Like there's no, there's no other way to slice It. And he looked better physically at the end of the year with the Clippers. Was even like getting offensive rebounds in the Denver series. And I actually talked to him in la. He's like, yeah, I feel a lot better. And so I think the. Yeah, that was a great trade by the Clippers to get off of a mistake. I think man can do some things for Atlanta, like, he's a good shooter. If he has his feet set in the corner, he can play some D, play with some energy. But the Hawks, the way they're set up right now, they need more creation than he can give them. And so he's. He wasn't that productive for them. And he still got three more years at 15 and a half.

Zach Lowe (70:44)

Can we move on to my next team then? Cause that's a nice transition point to. To my next. We just sped by them. Hey, who's on the team again? Team, the Atlanta Hawks. Speaking of trades that worked out, the second Dejante Murray trade was like salvation for the Hawks. Now they're still out the next three drafts. The spurs still control, including this one from the first Dejounte Murray trade, which was a mistake. But the fact that they dug out of it and got. I believe they have a 27 spurs pick. They have a. No, they owe the 27. Sorry. They have a 27 New Orleans or Milwaukee pick. And they have the Lakers pick this year. And of course, they have Dyson Daniels, who's up for an extension coming off most improved player. Without that trade, they're like dead in the water. I like. And then. Then they fire the GM who made the trade, which is like. I still don't really understand what happened there.

Chris Mannix (71:42)

Well, it was because he basically made the initial trade, too. Even though Travis Schlink had the. Theoretically had the conch then.

Zach Lowe (71:49)

Did he or did the owners make that trade?

Chris Mannix (71:52)

It was a combination of the two, basically. Okay, well, so, yeah, that. That was kind of where everything went.

Zach Lowe (71:59)

They have Clint Capella, unrestricted free agent. I'm expecting him to not be on the team next year.

Chris Mannix (72:04)

Correct.

Zach Lowe (72:05)

Caris Levert, unrestricted free agent. I'm expecting him to be back on the team next year.

Chris Mannix (72:10)

Correct.

Zach Lowe (72:11)

Larry Nance, unrestricted free agent. I would lean on him being back on the team next year as the backup, five to a conglo, who kind of sneakily, like, broke out in the second half of the season because he'll come cheaper than Capella.

Chris Mannix (72:23)

Maybe. I think. I think they want to bring Nance back. Yes. They liked having him in the locker room. They liked having him as a kind of fifth big. I'm not sure if they're bringing him back as a rotation guy. A, I mean he can't stay healthy enough to be a true rotation guy. B. They need another big five on that team. I mean a conglomerate, a congloo was was good in a lot of ways but he's six, eight. He like any. Anytime he's matched up against like Towns or like one of these big fives, he just just kind of gets overwhelmed. Like they need somebody with true center size on that team.

Zach Lowe (73:02)

I agree and I don't know who that's going to be. They do have a decent even even after resigning, presumably a couple of these guys, they still will have a decent amount of space below the tax I think to get that done. Yeah, they also have the same dilemma, that maybe higher end version of it that the Kings have with Levine, which is the Trey Young extension dilemma. Trey Young has a. Trey Young has a player option for 26, 27 at 49 million and I don't really know what to do with that. Like Trey Young is very, very good. I think Trey Young's actually become underrated. I think he's really good. A great passer obviously has massive limitations as a defensive player. You know, look over the years there's been a lot of buzz of do people like playing with Trey Young? Is he still. Is he too ball dominant? Is he like monopolizing the offense to hunt for assists is like yeah, he gets a lot of assists but at the expense of ball movement and cutting and like everyone touching it. He's like the anti Halliburton in that sense. Like they get the same amount of assists but in very dramatically different ways. And last year he did just veer a little bit into not a new style but like enough of getting off the ball. Sometimes actually moving off the ball, not just standing near half court. I think I said on some podcasts about a month or two ago he set more ball screens this season than he did in all of his prior seasons put together according to tracking data. Ran more pick and roll unconventional pick and roll combinations that fit their personnel. Jalen Johnson, who we should probably talk about as a breakout starish player before he got hurt. Dyson Daniels inverted pick and rolls, all of it and just like shifted the Hawks offense just enough to like it's a little different. Guys are a little more involved, it's a little more unpredictable. We can sit here and make up fake Trey Young trades and I don't know that there will be any great ones. But I'm going to say this, John Hollinger, if I'm the GM and I'm not, first of all, I would be fired immediately, which seems to be the M.O. just keep firing people. Second, I think I'm keeping it together unless I get a really good offer. Now, I don't know what the extension number should be, but this team is pretty good. And the east is so bad that if they kept this team together, is, is, Is there a world where they're like the three seed next year? Like, yeah.

Chris Mannix (75:33)

At 42 and 40.

Zach Lowe (75:34)

Yeah. No, I mean, in the east, you could just. Could. I mean, if they're starting lineup is Trey Young, Dyson Daniels, Risa Shea, Jalen Johnson, Akongu. That lineup played 16 minutes together last year, by the way. 16.

Chris Mannix (75:46)

Okay.

Zach Lowe (75:46)

And they have like a decent enough bench with niang and man, and, you know, they need a backup point guard and a backup 5. I don't know what the Kobe Buffin experience is going to be. So there are some holes there. I don't know. Like, I don't know that I'm going to get an offer for Trey Young that's good enough for me to just be like, anything. But hey, like, I think we're pretty good. Let's keep it together. I don't know. What do you think?

Chris Mannix (76:06)

Yeah, I think the only Trey Young trade that's going to be out there is like an exchange of problems, like the triangular. Trey Young for LaMelo Ball for John Morant trade.

Zach Lowe (76:17)

You know, something like that. Vetoed. Vetoed by me, Commissioner. Me.

Chris Mannix (76:23)

I, I, you know, there had been whispers about San Antonio. Obviously, that's not happening anymore. I don't have a great landing spot for him. Like, could. The Kings could.

Zach Lowe (76:36)

They're, they're on my list. So here the Kings and the Hawks. I should have said this during the King section with Sabonis. They have these pieces that are just, you know, they're good and they're expensive and no one is super satisfied on either end of it. But, like, if the Kings trades a bonus, they need a center. They need to get a center somewhere along the way. If the Hawks trade Trey Young, they have no point guard left on the team other than Kobe Buffkin. They need a point guard. And so you have to consider that when you're making up your fake trade, you can't just trade Trey Young for like, a bunch of stuff and no point guards unless you're just tanking and you don't even control your pick to tank. So in considering that There is like, a Trae Young from Malik Monk plus DeRozan plus draft assets that at least, like, I can say Malik Monk is kind of a point guard. And that's why the Sabonis 8 and 1 kind of made sense to me, too. But what was your Sacramento like? This is two of my crazy, my unpredictable, whatever, interesting teams trading with each other, which I thought a lot about.

Chris Mannix (77:39)

Yeah. So Trey Young for Sabonis was the thing I was thinking about.

Zach Lowe (77:43)

I thought about Sabonis to Atlanta, too, to pair with Trey Young, but that's, again, it's a very expensive duo that I don't know is going to lead you anywhere. But Trey Young for Sabonis. Okay.

Chris Mannix (77:58)

Trey Young with Sabonus would be interesting if. If the Kings were willing to take a step back, right?

Zach Lowe (78:06)

Yeah. What about. I mean, the obvious ones are Orlando, but I just. That feels like a. A bigger swing stylistically then the Magic, as starved for offense as they are, are going to be willing to make. It's less about the talent and even less about the price tag. Although a lot of, like, if you're going to have Ben Caro and Wagner on Max as a third guy at that level, teams are very reticent to put three of those guys together. But even stylistically, like, that's almost too big of a swing.

Chris Mannix (78:36)

I agree with that.

Zach Lowe (78:38)

I tried Miami, you know, with like, Rogier and Wiggins and Hawkes, and it just becomes unwieldy salary wise and, you know, apron slash tax wise. I tried Brooklyn with, like, Claxton and d' Angelo Russell, but it doesn't just. This doesn't make any sense, does that. I don't.

Chris Mannix (78:57)

I don't think fits what Brooklyn wants. Wants to be yet. Unless Brooklyn had another Max guy coming in. You know, if Brooklyn was like, getting Giannis and wanted another guy with him or something.

Zach Lowe (79:07)

Yeah, I mean, that crossed my mind, but that's, you know, just put a pin in it, I guess. There was some Utah buzz at the combine, and I think that was bogus. You could do like a Sexton Collins draft equity stuff for Utah. If Utah is just like, oh, my God, gut punch, we're picking.

Chris Mannix (79:23)

You're trading John Collins back to Atlanta on the same contract that they tried. Tried so hard to get rid of.

Zach Lowe (79:30)

I got. And the theory going around was, well, Utah just got this gut punch in the lottery. They're just looking at another year of being like, 14th or whatever in the toughest conference by far. At what point do they just have to do something, whatever it is to pair someone with market and maybe this is the one that makes sense. I didn't get the sense that the Jazz were going to be super interested in that. So I don't know. I'm out. That's it for me.

Chris Mannix (79:54)

Yeah. So then you, you get to do you extend him or do you play out the year? I think you probably tried try to get the extension done, but can you do it for less than the max? That's. That's the real question.

Zach Lowe (80:09)

Well, that's one to your point. Like, and this does not apply to Levine because he's on his, you know, third team or whatever and is just not this quite the same caliber of players. Trae Young, that's one. Like if you don't get the extension done, it's not a great sign for the relationship between player and team. You know, this is a franchise player. This is a guy you traded Luca for. This is a guy who led you to the conference finals. He's beloved. In Atlanta, everyone does the ice tray shiver thing. If you don't get that done, that at least sort of changes the dynamic with Trae Young and the Hawks, don't you think?

Chris Mannix (80:46)

Absolutely.

Zach Lowe (80:47)

Yeah.

Chris Mannix (80:47)

Yeah. It becomes everyone's looking at their watch then 100%.

Zach Lowe (80:52)

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Chris Mannix (81:39)

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Zach Lowe (81:51)

And Keanu Reeves returning as John Wick.

Chris Mannix (81:54)

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Zach Lowe (82:08)

You want to pick one of your teams? I only had one team left and we have talked about them a bit on this podcast, so I don't need to talk about it.

Chris Mannix (82:14)

Yeah, I think Trey is a great segue into the Orlando Magic.

Zach Lowe (82:18)

Go do it. I love it. Everyone knows like I have a soft spot for the weirdo offensively challenged Orlando.

Chris Mannix (82:24)

Magic because they, I find it so interesting that they did the Suggs extension the way they did to essentially make themselves a tax team this coming year to try to reduce the hit in the out years when they have Wagner and presumably Boncaro on max deals. I'm sure there's going to be super max language and Von Caro's extension. So that could end up being even more expensive. They have four players with team options. They probably will decline all four, I'm guessing. And that will be to.

Zach Lowe (83:02)

To clarify for everyone that is Mo Wagner 11 million. Gary Harris 7 1/2 million. Corey Joseph 3 1/2 million. The last two Caleb Houston and Caleb Houston. But Gary Harris and Corey Joseph like preposterously important in their admittedly injury ravaged playoff rotation and Caleb Houston at 2.2. So you think they decline all of them?

Chris Mannix (83:24)

Actually they might pick up that option on Joseph because he was, he ended up. He very quietly had a really dramatic comeback year, ended up starting for them in the playoffs and kind of deserved to be out there. Has really kind of reignited his career. It's kind of a fascinating story that's kind of gone under the radar. I, I think what they have to do is try to. They've talked about bringing in some older guys. I think they're going to cut bait on some of these young guys who haven't worked out as much. Like can you trade Cole Anthony and jet Howard? That's 18 million in salary. And like trade for Anthony Simons maybe if you throw in a pick or something and kind of get a real shot creator into your offense that way. Like I think they, they understand now they need like a somebody who could. A point guard who can touch the paint and not have all the shot creation fall on Paolo and Franz.

Zach Lowe (84:25)

You think they find, you think they understand that now? Think that the point has been hammered home to them after.

Chris Mannix (84:30)

You would hope so.

Zach Lowe (84:31)

A thousand straight years of bad offense.

Chris Mannix (84:34)

I think that's even more important than the shooting.

Zach Lowe (84:37)

So then the question becomes, I mean Simons is on a good contract at 20/something million for a couple more years, right?

Chris Mannix (84:43)

He's got one year after this one, I think. Is that right?

Zach Lowe (84:46)

Yeah, something like That I don't know. I'm not looking at it.

Chris Mannix (84:48)

He's. He's expiring this coming season.

Zach Lowe (84:50)

Okay, so then one year left at.

Chris Mannix (84:51)

27.7, so you probably need to get an extension done in the same transaction.

Zach Lowe (84:57)

And so then you just come into the prop not problem. But you know, whatever his extension number is, it's not going to be small. It's not going to be the Max, but it's not going to be small. I mean, Simon is a good player, but like, maybe it's Suggsy, maybe it's a little less than Suggs. Maybe it's whatever. Maybe it's exactly what he makes now. Simons plus Suggs plus Ban Caro plus Wagner, the last two on presumably Max. And in Bank Hero's case, maybe supermax ish deals. It's a lot of money. That's four guys making a lot of money, which is. The Suggs contract is so interesting to me because every time Orlando comes up in like a fake star trade, people say, well, you can't have Suggs plus Wagner plus Van Carroll plus another super duper expensive guy. And in my head I'm like, I kind of think Suggs goes out in all of those trades. I think that contract is, is there partly because Jalen Suggs is awesome when he's available, but also because it's a little bit handy in trades. I wouldn't assume that Jalen Suggs is on the Magic for the next like 10 years.

Chris Mannix (85:58)

Oh, okay. Okay. Sort of. He's, he's sort of there. Gerald. Jalen Green, like a. That does two things at once at that number. I could see that. I mean, you, the thing you did mention, they also have that Wendell Carter extension kicking in where his salary goes from 10.8 to 18 on the extension. So that, that's a tricky one now too, where they may have overreached a little on that. They still have Goga's salary for two more years, which is a nice deal. But it's like if he's not going to play in the playoffs and they're going to be this top heavy, you can't really have a guy making eight who doesn't play.

Zach Lowe (86:37)

So that's, that's called the Zeke Najee effect.

Chris Mannix (86:40)

Oh, do not, do not taint Goga that way.

Zach Lowe (86:45)

No, sorry, I'm just talking about 8 million and doesn't play for a team that's suddenly expensive is hurtful.

Chris Mannix (86:51)

Yes, yes. And, and then they now they still have all their picks, like they could still do something Big. Right. If they, if they wanted to. I, I don't know if they have the appetite for it still. I think they still envision themselves as being a team with Paolo and Franz as the two best players. But they, you know, like if they wanted to get in on Giannis, they, they certainly could. Right. If they wanted to do something big like that. I, again, I don't sense the appetite for that. But they could be a player if they wish to.

Zach Lowe (87:28)

Another team that I believe owns all their picks that we're not going to talk about because I, I made this as you had to have been in the playoffs or the play in but is kind of cousins to Orlando because of the Jeff Weltman relationship. I just, I don't know that the Raptors will do anything all that interesting this off season because they made their big ish move with the Brandon Ingram trade. I do think there's a. Somewhat of an urgency there with an ownership transfer and some other stuff going on to hit the gas a little bit and try to win games next year and not have another. And obviously injuries totally killed their season and we're the reason why they, they shot themselves in the foot for the last six weeks playing bizarro rotations and essentially losing games on purpose. But I don't know. Just have my eye on them. Okay. My last team was Cleveland. Who was your last team?

Chris Mannix (88:20)

My last team was Memphis.

Zach Lowe (88:25)

I don't want to talk about Memphis. I've talked enough about Memphis, the Cavs. I just again, we zoomed by them because they lost. It was not great. They were banged up. They lost a heartbreaker in game two and never quite recovered from that. Against Indiana. We all know they're expensive. We all know they have four core guys. We all know that kind of sustaining a team at that level of money is going to be interesting. So they're even more expensive than I realized. They are way over the second apron. Yeah, not way over but like non trivial amount over the second apron without resigning Ty Jerome or Sam Merrill and I don't know that Ty Jerome is even going to be able to come back on a tenable deal. I think they would like to get Merrill back. They have a stress extension conversation they could have if they wanted to. Anna Dean Wade extension conversation and a DeAndre Hunter extension conversation. I don't know if they want to do any of those things. Yeah, you know Dan Gilbert spends a ton of money. They could try to dump a Coro who turned into a pumpkin every playoffs. I don't know what the price of that would be for a team that already owes all of its draft picks through 2029.

Chris Mannix (89:43)

Exactly.

Zach Lowe (89:44)

And you know, I have a couple things to say on this. Number one, Mobley winning defensive player of the year and or all NBA and bumping his contract up to 30% of the cap. Like it's, it's a huge, huge deal for them.

Chris Mannix (90:00)

Yeah.

Zach Lowe (90:01)

And it just brings me back to. I continue to. I proposed this first in 2018 in a column when it was very clear that teams were going to some teams in some situations were going to run away from the supermax even with homegrown guys that they drafted or that if they wanted to keep them, they did so knowing that the contract was going to be a damaging bad contract. I continue to think that for at least. At least. And we could think I need to think it through more. But for you draft a guy, and particularly in the apron era, you draft a guy and he makes the supermax on your team so he's not been traded. Whether it's 30% of the cap for a guy of Mobley stage or 35% of the cap later ahead of when you would normally get it. I think there's got to be some tax apron cap relief for that contract now. I don't know exactly. Maybe it doesn't count to the tax. Maybe somehow it doesn't count to the apron. I've proposed things like, you know, maybe you get like an extra little mini mid level exception. I don't know what the right answer is, but it just feels wrong to me that Evan Mobley making all NBA and winning defensive player of the year is anything but a massive victory for the Cleveland Cavaliers. It's just something they should be rooting for. It's something every team that has a player like this should be rooting for. And now they're just like in this apron jail where they can't do anything right. They can't. It's like they can't aggregate salaries. They can't take back more in a trade and they're left to at least. I don't know what they're going to do. I don't think they want to do anything. I think they love their four players. I think that's actually smart not to overreact to a second round beating when your roster was a little bit banged up. But you know, there was trouble. There was some troubling stuff that happened in that series. I think acting rashly is probably a mistake. But like Jared Allen's extension has even kicked in yet when he goes from like 20 million to 30 million in a couple of years.

John Hollinger (91:57)

Mm.

Zach Lowe (91:58)

And Garland Mitchell Allen Mobley is just going to be really expensive. I just, you know, sit here and if you had to rank, go ahead.

Chris Mannix (92:08)

You're allowed to negotiate on these supermax deals. Right. But Mobley's, Mobley's third season wasn't amazing. It wasn't so amazing that it was like we have to give him everything. Now this is the.

Zach Lowe (92:20)

More. This is the moral hazard argument that.

Chris Mannix (92:22)

I did set up his contract to only give him 27 and a half percent of the max if he made 13. All NBA. They just left the like, they just left the language in for 30%. If he made. If he won defensive player of the year, which he ended up doing because Victor got hurt and he's going to.

Zach Lowe (92:39)

I bet he makes second team all NBA. Which is being announced later this week.

Chris Mannix (92:41)

Yeah. Yeah. So they, they did do at least do a little bit to try to protect themselves there. But the other thing they did to your point, they got under the tax this year at the trade deadline so that they could be expensive the next two years. I think that was part of their, their plan and that they have a two year window. You look at the run on Hunter's deal in particular where he makes 23 and 25, you're not taking that on unless you had a plan to be expensive. So you have two year run with him to your run with stress at 16. Okoro is also timed on the same thing. Although they may. They got to figure out how to dump that salary. I think. I mean you can't have 11 million in money that's non performing in the playoffs on a roster this expensive. Especially if you want to bring back Jerome, bring back Merrill. That it's. That's going to involve some hard choices. Do they have to move off a Dean Wade maybe you know, who's like a movable 6.6 or do they also.

Zach Lowe (93:44)

And also shot poorly in the playoffs.

Chris Mannix (93:46)

Yeah. Or do they have to, you know, do they have to see if Jalen Tyson can move up in the world and take some of those Merrill or Jerome minutes. That. That's where it gets tricky because.

Zach Lowe (93:55)

Yeah.

Chris Mannix (93:56)

Because the only other way to trade yourself out of this realistically is to move Garland. Right. And I think that feels a little too big. I think one of the things that really hurt them in that series was that Garland wasn't 100% and so Mitchell had to be kind of the point guard, which is not really the thing that he is. And that hurt them. And I think you look at that series, there was, there was definitely shot variants that didn't help them, particularly in game one. And then the injury issues that, that hit them, not having Mobley, Hunter or Garland for Game 2, which they still should have won if not for a horrific collapse at the end. So I think you're correct. I think they, they try to run it back live with being really expensive and they've given themselves kind of this two year window and then they figure it out. But in the meantime, all they're left with is minimums working the edges and then they got, they got to see if there's a dumping ground for a core somewhere. Maybe you run it back with Okoro and try to dump them at the trade deadline. You know you're going to be. The advantage of dumping him before the season is that it takes a second apron out of play. But if you're not going to, if you're not going to be aggregating money or doing the other stuff, then it doesn't matter. You can trade him. During the season.

Zach Lowe (95:18)

We went through all the fake Trey Young trades, right. And I think a lot of the same destinations would apply to Darius Garland, only with more urgency. Like if I'm Orlando, that's the guy I'm calling about and I'm thinking about putting a lot of chips in.

Chris Mannix (95:33)

Yes, yes.

Zach Lowe (95:36)

Now to your point. Cleveland in that deal, fake theoretical deal. Okay, to be clear, taking back Suggs doesn't really do much for their salary relief and also thrusts Donovan Mitchell into a position where he really is the sole creator of offense from the perimeter. And I think they'll continue to hand more and more of the offense to Mobley as he gets more experience. But that's a lot on Donovan Mitchell and it already feels like in the playoffs every year it becomes like Donovan Mitchell against the world for the Cavs. I would rank like, if you're going to rank, who are they of their core four, who are they most likely to trade in the next two years? I still think it goes one Allen to Garland and then it's just Grand Canyon size chasm to the other guys. I just don't, I don't see them moving Mitchell or Mobley barring something insane happening. Even the bill floated the Mobley for Yanis fake trade, which is illegal by cap rules on its own merits. It's a, it's an interesting one. It's, it is interesting if, if you could find a way to actually do it and I think, I think you'd have you could, you'd have to dump Hunter somewhere in a separate deal like to Brooklyn or something and then you could do it. But I, I think, I think Cleveland would even be risk averse doing that. As great as Giannis is. That's, that's just my read.

Chris Mannix (96:56)

If they were going to do something it would probably involve Allen just because it's three straight playoffs where you just couldn't count on him. And you know he had the weird rib injury last year. He turned into a pumpkin against Mitchell Robinson in 23 and then this year he just didn't, just didn't give him much in a, in a matchup against a not like hugely imposing Pacers front court where you think he could have eaten a little more. Now some of that maybe was that he missed Garland. You know he does, he does, he doesn't depend on self created shots. So not, not having Garland creating for him I think did, did hurt and he's, he's still at an awesome number for one more year at 20 million. So like you can say okay you got to move Jared Allen, but what do you, what are you realistically getting back that fits in that salary slot? That's what gets tricky. But I wonder, as time goes on Mobley fills out, becomes probably more of a full time five. Are you better off trading Jared Allen for somebody who's six eight?

Zach Lowe (98:01)

Well and again like the salary, the salary constraints come into play here. It's both salary constraints and like you won 64 games. A any trade that is a step back is going to be a very hard pill to swallow. And I say that because you know, we know that there's one team that is going to be on the hunt for a rim running center and has like contracts to trade and a draft pick and a swap to trade that they already traded for Mark Williams and that's the Lakers. But I just don't like what am I taking back in that trade that is interesting to me if I'm Cleveland from like a win now perspective like the swap and the pick are interesting to me but like you know, Maxi Kleba plus Gabe Vincent, I can't even do that. That's more, that's more money than Jared Allen makes. Maxi Kleba plus connect plus another salary is like or like Gabe Vincent plus connect or like I'm not, I'm not getting Reeves, I'm not getting Finney Smith and if I'm the Laker like Hachimura is good. Hachimura is a success story for the Lakers. They got him on the cheap. He's a really good player. I, you know, I understand that I have this in urgent need for rim protection and a lob threat and all of that, but I, I don't, I don't love Rui. Plus assets, like, plus real draft equity assets for Jared Allen. And I don't know. I mean, there'll be other teams, but they're the obvious one that's going to, that is going. The Lakers are going to get a center come hell or high water. I don't know who it's going to be. Yeah. But Jared Allen is the archetype of a player that I would be looking at if I were them.

Chris Mannix (99:36)

Yeah. 100%. And the Lakers issue is that because they only have like five players that, that they can actually trust in a playoff game. They can't. They, they really can't put one of them in a trade for another player. Like, they just need more real basketball players. So obvious in the Minnesota series, especially where it's like, wow, the Lakers have three guys who would crack Minnesota's top eight. So I, I think because of that, yeah, you ha any Laker deal, it has to be like Cleba Vincent, something like that. Vanderbilt, like that. That has to be the outbound money. And then they put the picks into incentivize the trade to get there, to.

Zach Lowe (100:22)

Get their rim runner and Connect, baby. Remember, Remember a month into the season when Connect was the toast of the town. Oh, what a mistake all these 16 other teams made. And yeah, they're like here the 1700 word inside the story of how the Lakers stole Dalton Connect. And then the playoffs come around. I was like, wait, is he on the team? Wait, they did wait. He practiced for Charlotte, but he came back, right? He's still on the team. Wonder how that practice. That's what I want. I want the oral history of Dalton Connect's one practice with the Charlotte Hornets. That's what I want. John.

Chris Mannix (100:53)

I, I believe he could only was allowed to witness the practice and could not actually participate in it since the trade.

Zach Lowe (100:58)

Right. So I still want the story. Was he on his phone? Was he actually paying attention? What was the conversation with Charles Lee like? Were they. Were they already. Was Charles Lee on the whiteboard? Like, J.J. redick was at the draft. He was like, oh, I was so excited. I was on the whiteboard during the draft drawing up plays for Dalton Connect that Dalton Connect turns out won't even remember and I'll have to take him out of the game because he doesn't know what to do. John Hollinger writes for the Athletic. Everything you write is immediately I'm dropping whatever I'm doing to read it. It's, it's the best basketball writing that exists. Two kind of Hollander Duncan, Nate Duncan podcast once a week. Once a week, right? Yes. I don't say facetiously, the best ever do it. It's great to see, it was great to see at the combine. You are wearing your commander's gear. You're just, you're all about the commanders. It's all happening for you. And I will see you, I'll see you at the finals probably, right? Yes, sir. Let's grab a brewski at the finals. John Hollinger, everybody. All right, that's it for the Zach Lowe Show. It's Thursday morning. We will be back on Monday morning. The Pacers probably will have overcome a 25 point deficit in the last 90 seconds of a game by then. So God only knows what's going to happen over the weekend. But we will see you on Monday. And thanks today to on the production crew, Jesse, Chris, Bobby and Oscar. See you all on Monday. Must be 21 and over and present in selection select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over in President D.C. gambling problem called 1-800- gambler or visit FanDuel.com RG call 1-887-897-777 or is it ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or is it mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland? Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 2477, sport in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOP E N Y or text Hope NY in New York.