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Them Before Us Podcast
Them Before Us #063 | Seth Drayer from Created Equal | Culture Change on Abortion
00:29:47
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- [00:01]
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Foreign.
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Welcome to the Them Before Us podcast. I'm Jen and we hope to have meaningful conversations on this podcast that center the rights of children in everything from culture to law to technology. And today we have a guest named Seth Dreher, who's the vice president of the pro life organization Created Equal. And he's here today to talk a little bit about their organization and also a really neat event that they do called the Justice Ride. So Seth, thanks for being being here today.
- [00:33]
A
Hey Jen, it's a privilege to be here. Then before us has been for my team paradigm clarifying. We'll talk about that later, I'm sure but for many people who listen to you. So it's a privilege to be on the podcast today. Thank you.
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B
Awesome. Well Seth, I'd love to just hear a little bit maybe about your background. What led you into the pro life space to be passionate about fighting for the rights of unborn children?
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A
Yeah, I think, you know, I remember being a kid long ago with my grandparents and I heard my grandmother say something like, you know, we're pro life. And I thought, oh, okay, that sounds fine. I mean, who would be anti life, right? It seemed to make seem to make sense to me. But really I didn't start learning a lot about abortion until I was later in middle school than high school. Really in high school, I like everyone else in public school, I had to do a speech on some persuasive topic and I knew that again, abortion was an issue. So I decided to do some research. Now this is way before Google and YouTube, so I had to go to the local pregnancy resource center to do some research. I got this video called Hard Truth by Greg Cunningham's the Center for Bioethical Reform. Took it home, watched it, and it showed babies in development growing in the womb. And then it switches to show babies killed by abortion. I just, I was so shocked watching it. I'd never seen anything like this and I thought, this is really horrible. I've got to do something. But I didn't know really what to do about it. But so years later, fast forward, I became a youth minister and I was involved in apologetics and I saw this great desire need to help babies help their parents. But again, I didn't know my role in it. And so I found the organization I work for now, which is bringing it's creating public dialogue. You know, I love there's so many groups doing, helping moms and dads at the 11th hour, offering counseling, offering resources. Those are critical. You also have those who are advancing legislatively seeking to fight bad ballot initiatives or to actually bring pro life laws into existence. But our work is public education, which in a sense helps both arms because it kind of, it creates the consensus you need for those laws to come into being for the right leaders to be elected, and also does away with a lot of the. The problems women have, finding resources because of all the stigma against pregnancy, resource centers, things like that. So I saw this group doing this public outreach, creating dialogue. I saw pro choice, pro life people talking together and thought, wow, like when you can actually have people talking and making forward movement, that's what I got to do. So that's why I'm at Created Equal now.
- [02:46]
B
That's awesome. It makes me think that, you know, with Roe being overturned, if anything, we just saw that the battle is not even close to being over because kind of similar to the slavery and civil rights era, we people were not on board with the cultural side of things. You could change laws, but there also has to be a changing hearts, a changing culture side. And I remember reading a book about William Wilberforce, who was more on the law and the law side of things, trying to get slavery outlawed. But there was a number of people who were poets and writers who were trying to change the cultural. Like the woman who made this poem like am I not your brother? And it was a picture of a man with his hands, like pleading. And that was this very culturally important art piece. But so it was both at the same time. So it sounds like you're kind of saying your organization is more focused on this cultural heart change problem, which is really important because even though it's up to the states now, I live in a state where they went as hard as they could pro abortion direction. And there's some states that went more pro life. But what are some examples of things Created equal does to spark those conversations?
- [04:04]
A
Yeah, well, I think it's interesting what you referenced that. That famous image of the asking, am I not a man and a person? And it's a. A man whose hands are together because of course he has been enslaved. And that was in many. Some hist is called that. Our first meme, the first, because it was spread around everywhere. It's put on cufflinks, on jewelry boxes, all kinds of things. People seeing this image, making them think about slavery in a new way, because you see the slave, you have this thought provoking question, am I not a man and a brother? That's. I'm sorry, not person by brother. It's very powerful. So yeah, we, we see imagery like that is critical to what we do. Honestly, you know, when I think about how we advance public dialogue, it can really be summarized well. I was listening to your podcast, the post election recap, in which Josh, one of your co workers, is talking about the movement we've had forward. In some ways, you know, thankfully, for so long, student kids who were the victims of the transgender problem in America were too young to speak. Now they're speaking, and this is very good, we're hearing from them. But then Josh made the insightful point that the victims of abortion can be ignored. They can't. They can't talk. They will never have a voice because they are dead. And this is the tragic reality. If you want to have victims heard, which I think is very powerful, Any social movement wanting to advance an agenda on behalf of this rejected group of people, you often need the victims at the forefront, hearing their stories, hearing what they're going through, what their experience was. It's just not possible for preborn people. However, we do find a way to give them a voice. They can't be heard, but they can be seen in the same way. That picture, that drawing of an African American slave was very critical. We, in all of our efforts, we go to college campuses, go to downtown areas, and we bring with us imagery, and I can share more about that later, but imagery showing the victims of abortion, because when they are seen, and you don't have to tell people, hey, this is horrible, it's terrible, it's a bad thing, you just show someone a picture and ask them, what do you think about this? And you can see that heart change happen, right? So maybe they're not ready to vote for a total abortion ban yet. But little by little, you're moving them away from abortion in the same way that you and I, rightfully so. We are disgusted by the thought of sex trafficking, human slavery, because we know how bad it is. In the same way, we don't want to merely humanize the baby, we also want to show the true barbarity of what abortion is. So people would be disgusted by it, not want to pursue it. So that's really what we do. We go to college campuses, other areas, with public outreaches, bringing people who've been trained to engage in dialogue with the scientific facts of how we know when life begins, how to respond to pro abortion objections. But then we create the dialogue for them by having them stand by a picture. They can ask people, what do you think of this? And the conversation rolls.
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B
Do you get, I imagine, pushback from people on the Conservative side. I've seen a lot of clips of different, not necessarily created equal, but a number of different organizations that do similar things. And a lot of people, even on the conservative side, are very incensed about showing the graphic pictures, which is interesting because they're more outraged sometimes about seeing the pictures publicly than about the reality of that. What that being what happens to children in the womb. So how do you navigate showing the pictures, defending, showing them especially to more the people on the right side of the spectrum.
- [07:13]
A
Yeah, no doubt. And there are people who have many concerns I think are important to think about. Because when you just think, okay, I'm going to wake up today and go to a college campus and show a bunch of students a picture of a dead baby, it sounds kind of crazy.
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B
Right?
- [07:24]
A
And right. It just sounds bizarre. I think that we have to respond to these questions because they are fair and right ones. But I think what is helpful is to be a bit of a student of history and recognize that we're not the first ones. You know, I know them before us. You know, you have many efforts on behalf of children's rights are advancing right that abortion is not the only issue children face today. And looking at the history, abortion is not the first injustice the world has ever faced. There have been many issues and we have looked to history to see what efforts or what commonalities are there among those who have won where they effectively turned a culture against an evil thing. And we see one commonality is that they expose in the graphic reality the thing they want people to despise because their goal is not to. It's not a marketing thing of let's make people identify as pro life or let's make people join a fun group. They're trying to reform culture by turning people off of the evil thing itself. So you have the British slave trade. They had line drawing showing the ships where people were stacked in the bottom of the ships and showing how bad their situations were that terrified a lot of people in Britain and show them the ugly reality of slavery in America. You have, of course, images used for other movements like the civil rights era. There's actually a story of the on the Edmund Pettus Bridge when the people were marching across with Dr. King to defend African American rights. When they reached the other side of the bridge, there were a force there, police and others, who started beating the marchers, the civil rights marchers. And one guy from Life magazine was there with a camera taking pictures. He saw some kids being beaten by some people, by some white supremacists. He dropped his camera, ran to intervene, and Dr. King said, Stop, I know you want to help us. But so much more important, people see this because now they don't know it didn't happen. They don't know it happened because there's no picture of it. He wanted people in the average, you know, normal people in their homes pick up their paper in the morning and see the ugly, terrifying reality of what was happening in America. So I would say, biggest student of history. If that worked before, why wouldn't it work now? And I would say we also, actually, we all very frequently do use imagery like this, just not with abortion. CNN years ago, I remember. I'm sure Jenna may remember this, too, but this was during Trump's first presidency. There was a sarin gas attack in Syria. And I saw the pictures on the news that night. I couldn't sleep. I saw these kids who just clearly had died in pain and suffocation. And the CNN defended it, saying it's important to show these pictures because it's so harrowing. We've got to see it. And I think they're onto something there. So we don't have to be unkind. I mean, the pictures, that ugly reality, I'm not going to add offense on top of it, but I want to remove the offense of it, make it look pretty. And the reality is, if you suffocate a kid in Syria or you suffocate a kid in her mom's womb here in America by chemical abortions, you can't make that look pretty. So I understand the concerns, and we are careful and gentle and kind in how we share the truth and not screaming, shouting. We also, we defuse anger because people do get upset. There's a lot of hidden pain from abortion we bring to the surface, but we can do this in a loving way. And in the past, it has effectively ended injustice, and I believe it still can today.
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B
That's really good. Yeah, it's such a great point, because things can thrive. Evil can thrive in darkness. It thrives when good men do nothing. Right. As some of those quotes go. And so, yeah, we should be more upset that it's happening than that people want to expose it happening, even if it makes us uncomfortable. And do you have some examples of how these dialogues, like, say, on a college campus have changed the needle? I think a lot of people think, you know, I don't want to post things online or I don't want to start those conversations. It feels pointless. Or you just see examples of, you know, whether it's Like Charlie Kirk does a lot of good conversations with people on college campuses, but sometimes you just see kids that are antagonistic towards him. They never change their minds. But those are the ones that are more interesting to watch in some ways. Yeah, but does it make a difference, you know, your conversations on campus, have you been able to move the needle socially with folks?
- [11:22]
A
Yeah. Okay, so that it's interesting. There are kind of two ways to look at that picture. One would be numbers wise looking at these statistics, and others would be more stories. I personally, I'm not a numbers guy. I prefer to think about the conversations I've had, remember people I've talked to to see the needle move for them. But there have been some interesting studies done. If any of your listeners are more into numbers. Some studies done by one group, Protect Life Michigan, had a study done. Another, the Canadian center for Bioeth for a form, commissioned a study by Dr. Jacqueline Harvey. Just looking at. So, you know, we see this working individually, but is there actually any statistical evidence we actually are moving the needle? What they found in their research is that when people have seen pictures of babies killed by abortion in some kind of public outreach effort, they have been surveyed months later, not immediately after, but months later, to see kind of does it stick? Any kind of change that happened with them. And one study, the one from the Canadian center for Bioethical Reform, they saw that about 67% of people surveyed said that after seeing it, they had increased negative feelings about abortion. Now, it doesn't mean they love the Republican Party or they love, you know, whatever it may be, but they had increased negative feelings toward abortion itself, which is, again, I would say movement, because even if abortion is legal, if people don't like abortion, they hate abortion, they're not going to choose abortion. Right? Or at least I think especially if abortion is worse in their minds than the unplanned pregnancy questions that come with them, then they're not going to choose it. The study From Tech Life Michigan was similar. I think they had about 50% of people said seeing it, seeing the pictures made them less supportive. So there are studies like that. Now I find a lot of people, when I point them to data like that, they think, yeah, well, I don't know. Like, I'm not really convinced by that. But I would say I anyone who comes with us and joins us for a day when we're on a campus, actually we know people on the west coast not far from you, probably they're in the state of Oregon who are doing similar work to us called Tiny Heartbeat Ministries. If you spend a day with groups like theirs, you'll see that when you, you do see the meat needle move individually, even with some people who start very angry. I remember clearly one woman I met at Ohio State University years ago had this fiery red hair, this fiery personality to go along with it. She started shouting at me angry, like how dare you be here showing this on our campus. And I just for a while it seemed like I was not breaking through because she was just angry. But I saw her shirt. She had on a shirt that said Jenny's Splendid ice Cream. It's ice cream that was started here in Columbus, Ohio. So at the time I knew it and liked it. So I just said, oh hang on a second. You like Jenny's? I do too. She paused and looked at me a second time like oh wait, that's a human I'm talking to, not just some 2D anti abortion freak. At the end of the conversation she wasn't pro life yet, but she hugged me and said thank you for being here. Now that was a different kind of shift of the needle to where she's more open minded to our view and I would say more predisposed to listen better the second time or just this week I had a guy named Chen who told me that he was for abortion until at least early on he left fully opposed to abortion. So I could tell plenty of stories individually, people having a needle move. I could also say we've been to some campuses repeatedly and you see repeatedly over time the campus does shift a bit in their openness to us and so I do think we are moving the needle now. This is not a silver bullet end to abortion by any means. It's slow effective change and I think that's what our especially wake up bell initiatives. We need that to make the way for better state votes in the future.
- [14:30]
B
Yeah, that's so good. And you don't know, you know one person as a college student that might change their mind on it could be the next senator, could be the next tech CEO, could be the whatever. And so it is cool. Just from the Christian perspective, you don't know this. We don't know the, the potential of the seeds that are being planted. And like you said, maybe that one person who sees the sign and has a conversation with you goes and has a conversation with some other folks about oh you know, but I saw these pictures, we should look that up because I don't know if I think that's true about just abortion. It's a compass cells, it doesn't matter. And so that's pretty cool. But yeah, you're right, that can't necessarily show across data. Hey, this many people change their mind and we, you know, now abortion's illegal or something. But it's also the long game, right? We're not in the people fighting. Roe dug in for the long game. And so this is just a, it was a victory. But it shows, you know, there's still so much work. We have to dig in to continue this long game and keep going forward. So does Created Equal work primarily, or is it focused primarily on teenagers and young adults?
- [15:39]
A
Yeah, that's a good question. So I would say that. Well, first of all, just a response. I think you made an excellent point there about how so often changes slow over time. Right. One of my greatest privileges is when we'll meet someone, we'll get emails saying, hey, I saw you guys last year. I thought you were idiots. And now I'm totally opposed to abortion because of what I saw. Or one guy named Pablo again, this was at Ohio State University. He met our team and he heard our case, saw the pictures, heard us saying that there's scientific reason to believe the baby is a human at fertilization. He said, no, what? You're wrong. Walked into the he. Then we didn't see him again for a year. I think it was about a year. Came back outside, he said, hey, I saw you guys last year. I thought you were wrong. I went to our school library, did research and found out, oh, wait, you're actually right, the baby is a human. Now, I'm against abortion. So we often don't see the fruit of it. The ripple effects go on over time to be asked your questions. We are not only for working for teens and for college students. We focus on those age groups because they're future decision makers. Also, you have the bulk of abortions done on that demographic. However, we think that anyone, anywhere can talk rightly about abortion and move the needle for individuals change how they think and feel about abortion. They just need basically two things, knowing the case and. And having some help directing them how to start the conversations. So we have the justice ride. I'll share about in a bit that just focus for high school college students. We also have a day of action other events. We just go to churches and we train their people to make the case and lead them in an outreach anywhere they want to go to a downtown area or to a college campus. Or we can take them to an abortion facility, which is different. We're doing sidewalk counseling there, offering help to moms. It's a different conversation direction, but. So we believe that anyone, anywhere who wants to bring us out will come, will train your people and lead you to do the hardest part, which is the first step. Anyone can sit in a classroom and learn how to talk about abortion. Actually dialoguing with those who don't agree with us. That takes some, Some. Some leadership leading you into that.
- [17:31]
B
Can you. This is more of like a bonus because this is probably a question you'd actually get asked on a college campus. But I think it comes up a lot, and I'd love just our folks who are listening to understand how to answer it. How do you articulate a lot of. Sorry, backing up? A lot of conservatives want to continue to say they're pro life except in cases of rape and incest, because that's become this kind of catchphrase of like, to show I'm not too extreme. I want to show you that I'm okay with those particular exceptions. Assuming that you're pro life regardless of the form of conception, how do we answer people who want to. To try and nail us on those exceptions?
- [18:13]
A
Yeah, I think that's a. It's an important question. People ask a lot. So what about rape and incest? Now, you and I would know that this is a minority of abortions. Right. According to Guttmacher Institute, less than half a percent of abortions are for sexual assault. However, that doesn't mean they're still happening. Right. So we can't just say it's. It's not the majorities. Let's not talk about it. We have to know how to wrestle with this. And frankly, it is something to wrestle with. I mean, when you think about a mom choosing abortion because she wants to, it makes her life easier. We understand that's not appropriate. Right. But a mom who's been assaulted, she didn't choose us. She didn't engage in consensual sex and choose the action that led to the creation of a baby. It's heavy. Right. And I don't know about you, but I know people my life who were assaulted and got pregnant. So I understand there are important stories to consider here. I think we always have to ask, what is our principle? And I think this is my general principle. You know, I believe abortion is wrong because I believe it's wrong to intentionally kill innocent humans. There's another principle guiding me when I think about sexual assault. And my principle is this. When assault has happened, we punish victimizers, not victims. Years ago, I saw this horrific story out of Somewhere in the Middle East, I think maybe Saudi Arabia, a woman was raped and she was punished afterward. I thought, well, that's asinine. You don't punish a woman for being raped because we punish the victimizer, the man who did it, not the woman who was raped. And so I think that same principle applies here. Right? So a woman has been assaulted, she's pregnant, we have three parties involved. The mom is clearly the victim, you don't punish her. The biological father, the man, he's the victimizer. Yes, punish him to the full extent of the law. But then we have this third party, the preborn baby. Now she's not the primary victim. Her body was not acted upon, that was the mother's body. The mom is the primary victim. But best case scenario, the baby is now entering the world or is in the world now where? Best case scenario, her dad is going to be in jail, bio dad in jail, mom may be raising on her own, and so her life is forever affected by her father's choice. She's a secondary victim of that assault. So I would say if our principles don't punish victims, well, they'll punish mom or baby. You know, the man should be punished again. But it would not be fair to give the victimizer a few years in jail and give the secondary victim capital punishment. That just isn't fair. So I would say that even the violence of abortion, I'm sorry, even the violence of sexual assault doesn't justify the violence of abortion. And if I just add in one small tag there, in my home state of Ohio, there's been a lot of chatter about this because of that 10 year old who was raped in Ohio, dragged across state lines to Indiana where she had the abortion. So a lot of people are saying, yeah, maybe it's wrong to abort a baby made in rape, but what if the mom herself is so very, very young? This is often a twist on the argument we hear quite a bit used in my home state to pass our VAL initiative last year. So just one small thing to think about. If anyone hears this. Who's listening? People who ask this question, I often ask them, why are you asking about a 10 year old? I think there's a reason for that. The younger you are, the more vulnerable you are, the more compassion we have for you. And that's a good thing. And so I would say it's wrong to rape a 35 year old or a 10 year old, but there's something about the 10 year old that so bothers us. But if that's True that the younger you are, the more vulnerable you are, the more increased compassion we have for you. Who's even younger than that 10 year old, the 10 week fetus in her womb. So why have no compassion for her? I would say again, we ought to have heightened compassion for her because she's even younger, more vulnerable.
- [21:30]
B
It's really good. Yeah. A lot of things to think about. I love that Lila Rose, Kristen Hawkins, they do, you know, those prominent figures in the pro life movement do some of the college outreach or the Q and A. And I love that articulation of we punish the victimizer, we punish the criminal. You don't punish the victims of the crime. And I think too people don't recognize a 10 year old going through an abortion is not a simple, easy, not traumatic procedure anyway. Even if you 100% think it's a clump of cells and it's not a human and it doesn't matter inside the womb, which we know is not true, you're still subjecting a 10 year old to something like that. So it's just the weights and measures need to be articulated, I think. And yeah, a case to be made considering that the baby in the womb is a living human, innocent, living human and should be protected, which is that overarching principle. We'd love to hear about what the Justice Ride is and maybe if people are interested how they could get involved with Created Equal or the Justice.
- [22:37]
A
Right, yeah. Thank you for asking. So the Justice Ride was born in 2012. We again, we like to be students of history, look at what worked in the past. And I mentioned before, the civil rights era were often very inspired by them and one thing they had was the freedom rights back in the 1960s where often generally interstate travel was desegregated federally but the states were still enforcing it. So you had people getting on buses, black and white, sitting side by side directly challenging the segregation of interstate travel in the states, in the Deep South. And when they did that, of course what happened was people, the white supremacists couldn't handle it. They started getting angry and forced the country to reckon with, with racism in a way they couldn't before. It brought to the surface all that hidden the violence of racism that people were seeing because of the Freedom Rides. So we inspired by them, go on a Justice Ride once a year. Now, our Justice Ride, we charter a bus. No one's mad at us for doing that. That's not the point. Because the violence is not happening as we're riding. The violence is not what happens to us at all, the violence is what's happening to babies in the womb. But like the Freedom Riders, our goal is to focus the nation, focus people's attention on the violence they're often overlooking. So we bring students to Ohio from across the country. They fly in from west coast, east coast, north, south. They come to Columbus, Ohio. We first take them to the classroom and train them in how do we know abortion is wrong? Right. So how do we know the baby really is a human? It's not enough to say, your mom told you that's true. You have to really know the scientific evidence. How do we know she's equal in person to you and me? Because frankly, she's very different from us. Does that justify perhaps saying she's a human non person? Well, no, it doesn't. But we have to train students how to know that's the case, how we know their persons. So we train them. They get on a bus and go to Florida because it's in the spring and it's cold in the springtime here in Ohio in late February, early March, go to Florida, go campus to campus. We take the buses, go down there, and we go to campus. And we stand shoulder to shoulder with these new recruits. And we do what I mentioned before, standby signs asking people, what do you think about abortion? These newly trained students stand by someone like me, who's been doing this for about a decade and a half, or other members of our team, and they learn by example, by watching us. Then they start having their own conversations. And then afterward, the part I love the most, we get back on the bus and debrief, share stories where you hear babies being saved, people changing their minds. You hear about people sharing the gospel, all kinds of great things happening in our outreaches during the day. And then we say, okay, now we've heard the good stories. What was hard today? What did you hear? You don't know how to answer because often, again, sitting in a classroom, you don't even know the right questions to ask. When you're talking to real people, having real dialogue, you learn, there's my knowledge gap. That's what I've got to learn. So again, you can be with someone like me who's done formal debates with college professors, done outreach for years, and you can engage with me. We can help you learn the things you don't yet know by the end of the week. These students are truly the experts. They can have a conversation, really. We hear that every. When they leave, they say, I came, I was against abortion, but now I really can tell anyone anywhere why abortion is wrong. I'm not afraid of any objection because frankly, they've heard it all. And so that's in. Coming up in February 28th through March 8th, people can go to justiceride.org if they want to learn more or to apply to join. I know that the buses are filling up, but we'd love to have more people join. If anyone's following, please check it out.
- [25:46]
B
How many students do you take?
- [25:48]
A
That's a good question. So we haven't had the past. We started with eight people in one van. We then went to multiple vans, then to a bus, then to multiple buses. So we can accommodate really up to about 80, 90 students could be our maximum currently, although maybe we'll add a third bus someday.
- [26:02]
B
That's awesome. That's amazing. I love that you're talking about training and they need evidence beyond. My parents told me so, you know, because I've heard that's a big indicator of whether or not children will retain their, their faith into adulthood or through college. I think Katie talks about this and in one of the books she wrote called Raising Conservative Kids in a Woke City is that as the primary provider of information and answers, your kids should be able to come to you and talk to you about really hard things. Hey, my teacher said it's just a clump of cells in the womb. And if the parents response is, your teacher's crazy, no, it's not. It's a human, obviously, but there's no other sort of defense or let's unpack it. Your kid can be a little more susceptible to their teacher that has all the scientific evidence to prove their point and your kid doesn't have anything to butt up against, you know, so. So kids that have answered, asked good questions and gotten good answers are, do better in defending their viewpoints, you know, going forward. So I love that you start with the training, the evidence you give them philosophy behind, you know, what does it mean to be human? Why is it different? It's different from it's not the mom's body. And I also love that you said they learn by watching and they're doing it in a very safe space because they're doing it with people who've done it before and they get to see and interact, but then they have to try it themselves. But they still have that safe landing place of okay, what went well, what was hard, how can we be better? They see their knowledge gaps and it's a week, week long trip. Right. Does it go Ohio to Florida?
- [27:42]
A
Yeah. So we start in Ohio because that's where we bring our home base here. People leave, get on the bus here. We don't start the outreach until we get to Florida. We do make one pit stop on the way back. I'm not sure if you're aware of this place in Chattanooga, Tennessee, they have the National Memorial for the Unborn. It's old abortion facility. Great story. Where they basically, the abortionist was losing his job. Someone wanted to buy the building to keep an abortionist in there. But the pro life movement overnight raised hundreds of thousands of dollars to buy this land. They destroyed part of the building, made him a memorial with a bunch of plaques and letters from people who aborted their children who now have grieved over and found healing through the gospel of Jesus Christ. And we stopped there to give people a visual. But there's all these things built into the week to make it very memorable for the students. But really just what you said was critical. I mean, when you're a young person, high school, college, and you are in this, I hate the word, I hate the phrase safe space, but really it matters when you're at a point like to be in a safe space where you have the right teaching. Right. That does matter. That's a good safe space. Not this like coddling kind of people we have today. It's a safe place to be hearing, being on a college campus, hearing these crazy things about moral relativism, transgenderism and then being back on the bus after. Like how do we think about this in the right worldview format? Right. I really think for parents it's a great way to. It's the idea of raising your kids, raising, serving kids in a woke city. Similar idea where we're not going to avoid it. We're going to talk about things that matter with the right worldview perspective and that's better. Preparing them to, as you said, keep their faith for forever.
- [29:07]
B
Yeah, that's so good. All right, well, we'll make sure we put the link to your organization and the information for the Justice Ride into our show notes so people can see it. We're also going to put it out in our newsletter coming up. But Seth, thanks so much for your work that you're doing to help change the cultural, the hearts and minds of folks and we just appreciate all your work.
- [29:26]
A
Thanks, Jen. It's a privilege, really appreciate it.
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B
Thanks everyone for listening to the Them for Us podcast. Yeah, check out our show notes. Check out the Justice Ride. Get a teenager, you know, to go join. Thanks for listening and thanks for joining the movement.