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Them Before Us Podcast
Them Before Us #065 | Author Leila Miller | Primal Loss: The Now-Adult Children of Divorce Speak
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Foreign.
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Welcome to the Them Before Us podcast. Today we have a conversation with an author, Leila Miller. Layla is a Catholic writer, an author whose passion is church teaching on marriage, family, human sexuality, and pretty much all of the moral issues. She loves to discuss culture, society, and politics generally from a conservative perspective. She's published four books and today we're here to talk about a book she edited called Primal the Now Adult Children of Divorce Speak, where she put together 70 stories of now adult children of divorce to open our eyes to the impact of divorce, regardless of age or how long it's been maybe since it occurred. Layla, thanks so much for joining us.
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I'm so glad to be here. Thanks for having me.
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B
So before we start, I'd love to just hear a little bit more about you. You can introduce yourself to our audience.
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A
So I'm Layla Miller. I live in Phoenix with my husband of 34 years. And we have eight children and most of them are grown and we have grandbabies number 15 and 16 on the way. So, yeah, it's a pretty full, pretty full life. And how did you get into.
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Yeah, writing.
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So literally, I just believe God gave me a gift for writing because I started writing when I was like 4 years old and just for fun. And as I got to be an adult and I was an English major in college, mostly I just wanted to be a wife and a mom and that worked out well. But then the culture started happening and I started realizing I have some things to say on this. I'm raising kids in a really crazy culture. And so I started writing editorials for the newspaper back in the 90s and then wrote a blog for a really long time. And then now I have a different blog. But somewhere along the line, some of my blog readers said, well, could you write a book on, you know, chastity and boys and kind of how to raise good men? And I'm like, well, I have six boys. I think I have something to say on that. So that was kind of my first self published book. And then but writing just always kind of came naturally to me and also telling my opinion. So that was always good too. I could do both.
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B
Exactly. That's awesome. And that's a great career for mom. You know, there can be, you know, you find little times. We have lots of experiences that are worth writing about. I don't want to date you or anything, but what year did you have your first child?
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So my oldest daughter was born in 1991.
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Okay.
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Yeah, she just turned 33 and then my youngest is, is 14 so he's.
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B
Oh, wow. Still got teenagers in the house and you've really then parented through the advent of like the smartphone social media. So that's a really interesting perspective that you can offer people.
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A
It's. I always say that I've basically raised children in two different generations. So the first half of my kids were raised prior to social media, prior to this kind of change in the landscape towards the acceptance of lgbtq and, you know, so my first few kids were able to watch preschool shows on TV or just do normal library stuff without any concern about being sexualized or that they'll see any of these agendas out there. And that was a really nice time. Yeah. And then you have the second half of my kids who. That was more the advent of all the social media and all the agendas that are out there and the culture has changed so much in that, in the time that I've been raising kids.
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B
Right. Yeah. I actually use an analogy like going to the eye doctor. I got my first pair of glasses when I was 8 years old and I've watched the advent of eye doctor technology just over, you know, 20 something years now. They're taking scans of the back of my eyeballs and I can look at the color coded picture and you can point out all these different cool things compared to when I was 8 years old or watching it. Yeah. So it's, it's fascinating to see things over the course of many years about the book Primal Wound, Primal Loss. Excuse me, what. What made you want to feature adults who experience divorce as children? What was it that led you to that?
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A
So it was completely unexpected off my radar screen whatsoever. I am not a child of divorce. I am not divorced myself. I, I had no experience with this and, But I do have friends, you know, friends who are adults. And some of them in my, you know, inner sanctum are children of divorce. And one in particular started talking quite a bit about. Not, not quite a bit. I'd just say in our, in our normal conversations as friends, she would be facing issues around the holidays or different things like that with her own children that and with her, her family of origin that I never experienced. And it's because she was, you know, the child of divorce. Her parents divorced when she was probably 6 or 7. And here she was in her early 40s with a very happy marriage, you know, with kids and, and she was navigating things and carrying burdens that I'd never even considered. For example, you know, her father's new wife and her kids from a previous Marriage. And then there's the. The step grandchildren. And how the father is more interested, really, and it's understandable in pleasing his wife rather than his first family's children and grandchildren. But the wife has grandchildren from her children. Those children took precedent. And, you know, who. Who is she going to go to stay with at Thanksgiving? Or who's the family going to visit? Or who does she text first when it's Christmas morning? Or who's going to get upset at this wedding or this graduation? Just so many different complications. And she kind of keep saying these things, not like in a terribly pushy way, but I started to realize there's a burden she's carrying that I don't know about. So I started asking her questions. And her mom had had, I think also several husbands or boyfriends or something. So there's that side. There's two sides she's straddling and. And her parents didn't really even know each other anymore, which is weird to think about that. Your parents anymore. So I said, you should write something about this because we don't know people from my. I never thought about it. I think it was 50 years old when this was going on. And she said, oh, maybe I. Maybe I will. Maybe I will. And then she just never did. So I had quite a social. Well, not quite. I had social media presence at the time. And I said, well, I'm just gonna. I'm gonna put some questions out there and see if someone's to answer me. And so I just thought up eight questions, literally in a spur of the moment, off the top of my head. And I said, does anyone want to anonymously answer these eight questions? Because I'm curious. I want to put together something and give your answers. And I had probably over 100 people in the first couple of days, say, I'll answer. I'll answer as long as it's anonymous. Because they get very, very worried that they're going to hurt their parents. And they love their parents. They don't want to hurt their parents.
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Right.
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And so that's what they did. About 70 of them ended up being emotionally able to answer these very simple questions. And then from there, I just put their responses in chapters, different anonymous responses to those questions. And, yeah, that opened my eyes a lot.
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B
Yeah. What were some of the. I don't expect you to list all eight necessarily off the top of your head, but what were some of the questions? What made you think of which questions to ask to try and sum up? Yeah. Someone's experience of divorce.
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So the Basic question, which is really general, is what were the effects of your parents divorce on your life? And that's the first chapter, and that's just explosive. I mean, it's so hard to read. It's easy to read in the sense of, you know, it's not a difficult book, but it's very emotionally difficult to read what they're saying. And then another chapter is, you know, what would you say to people who tell you that kids are happy when their parents are happy and children are resilient? That was the chapter that I had to bleep out a lot of swear words. People don't like that to be told, you know, well, it's a resilient. It's great. As long as your mom and dad are happy, you're happy. That's not really true. And I said, you know, what is the effect of your parents divorce on your own marriage or your own view of marriage if you're not married yet? And what would you like society to know that you can't really say? And what would you like your parents to know? And then I think there was another one that was like, what, what. What was the difference between your, your experience as a child, as a child of divorce versus as an adult? Although it's interesting because some of the contributors to the book were adults when their parents did get divorced. So. And it doesn't lessen the pain. If anything, it changes. The pain's a little different, but it's just as acute.
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B
Yeah, we call that phenomenon gray divorce. We've written about it at them before us and we actually. Katie answered a question on her radio program recently from someone who was talking about, you know, how do I navigate these dynamics when I sort of feel like now I have to. I'm parenting my own children, I'm married, and now I also have to parent. It feels like navigate, play peacemaker, try to organize my mom, my dad, to. To the point of what you were saying with your friend who's doing what holidays, who's going to be mad? You know, I have a kid's baseball game and. And the kid wants both grandma and grandpa to be there. But then if they can't be in the same room or they're going to bring an ex or their girlfriend or boyfriend or there's so many dynamics, then adult children have divorced, have to navigate. So listeners know some of my story. I shared one of our episodes. My parents got divorced when I was older, So I was 17 or 18. Still really difficult. But I do look back on it very Thankful it wasn't when I was much younger, because we still had stability in our home. At least I knew who was coming home. There was no other predators running around. We had, you know, we never went without food. We always got the bills paid and you had the two incomes, that sort of thing. And, but kind of also to your point about not really, you know, generationally, I'm a millennial, mid-30s. I know many, many, many people who've, you know, my age who've gotten divorced. I think the stat was probably 50ish percent, maybe 40something% of my age. Parents, right, got divorced. So it just seems very common. And then it's very difficult to. How can you picture a world where that doesn't happen? You know, millennials, I think, are kind of scared about, I don't know about getting married, because that's not, it's not something that lasts. Is that something you saw come up from folks? Just the insecurity of how can I start a relationship or get married when it doesn't last?
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A
Oh, a hundred percent. This is huge. It's a huge problem. In fact, I have a chapter in another book that another woman wrote. It's called Women Made New by Krystalina Everett. But my chapter, she specifically asked me, because she's the child of divorce, she specifically asked me to put together a chapter explaining the difference between a daughter of divorce who is getting married versus a daughter of an intact marriage who is getting married. And I can tell you, from an intact family, I never really gave it a thought. You know, I got married and like, yep, it's forever. And I didn't have this, this anxious anxiety, this worry just hanging over my head. When is this going to end? What's going to happen? Am I, am I able to do this? I've never seen this role model. I've never seen, you know, the daughters of divorce, they've never seen conflict resolved. It's if love ends, if someone becomes unlovable, like, oh, okay, you're unlovable to me now, you're gone. So how does that work if you're going into a marriage? You've never seen a good example of how to work through that and pass that across. You know, how do you get to the other side of it? So it is starkly different. I didn't realize it again. And in the book itself, in Final Loss, there are women who are. They will say, I'm married to a saint. And by the way, there are men in this book too. But women are more likely to answer questions Questions about relationships and so they're more, more able to talk about it. But one, one woman in particular said she was married to this saint of a man and maybe married 15 to 20 years before she stopped squirreling away money in her soft drawer, wondering, you know, when he's going to leave, when she's gonna have to. She said she was even suicidal at points with the anxiety that she had over her own marriage. And she said it took a long time to heal from what had happened in her childhood to realize this is not, I don't have to repeat this, this is not have to be my life too. Right? But the anxiety and just that again, I call it, you know, this burden. And I think half of America doesn't really understand that the other half of America is a walking wounded type situation. We just think about it. There's one woman, I will say there's a lot of silence around this issue, which is why I really, what you and Katie are doing, I didn't realize because again, I never thought about it. But nobody's allowed to talk about it. The kids aren't allowed to put a spin on it. That would make the adults feel bad because believe me, I'm sure the adults feel guilty enough, which is why they have to make it seem like it's probably no big deal for the kids. Everything's going to be okay. Kids are resilient. It doesn't really work out that way. But I was on one show a few years ago and a lady emailed me and she was in her mid-60s and she said her parents had divorced 50 some years earlier. And she said, I have to tell you, I never knew all these decades, I never knew that other people felt the way that I did. Wow, you've been walking around for 50 some years in America as a child of divorce. And that's how secretive and silent your feelings are have to be that you not know even that other people have these exact same feelings that you do. We're just not allowed to talk about, about it.
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I know there's research, right? So someone will say the research shows kids will are totally resilient and fine. And what's interesting is they're comparing, you know, who are they comparing it to? Are they comparing divorced kids to other divorced kids? Are they comparing divorced kids to single moms where the dad was never in the picture? They're, they're sort of rarely comparing it to here's the ideal and now you see the outcomes. And now let's compare it to divorced parents. And you have to wonder with the prevalence of divorce, how much has it impacted even at the research level? Because nobody wants to admit what you did really hurt your kids. So they're sort of. It's kind of like we talk about with the LGBT studies. If you're asking parents who identify as lgbt, hey, are your kids doing okay being raised with two moms or two dads? You tell us how they're doing. It's not surprising that they say, my kids are doing great. I am doing a great job parenting and my parent. My kids don't have any problems because of what's the alternative? This sucks for my kids. They hate it. They. They ask me all the time where their dad is or they want a dad, but that is not coming up very much in the research. And I. I just wonder a little bit if this push for kids are resilient. They'll be okay. It's. It's just adults telling themselves this to make themselves feel better, because at some level, we've all bought in, you know, culture, the Disney thing of follow your heart, follow your dreams. My kids will be happy if I'm happy. Like you brought up. And you just don't really see the devastation. And kids end up flipping, like we said, feeling like they have to care for, like, picture one spouse doesn't want to leave, but the other one just abandons you. But now you're feeling for your parent that didn't want to leave. You're seeing the emotions, the sadness, the brokenness. You feel heavy for that. You still care for your parent. That maybe instigated it, even if you're upset, but you don't necessarily know how to articulate all these things. Oh, that's what had come to mind with what you were talking about, is that we've talked about the statistics. A lot of kids, when their parents announced they're getting a divorce, had no idea it was coming. So parents will think, we're at the edge of our rope. We can't handle this anymore. It's so terrible. It's better for my kids to live in a, you know, separated house than what we have right now. But the reality is, most divorces hit kids like a same. In my family, my parents didn't have a good marriage, but when they announced it at dinner, it was like, out of nowhere. It was just the craziest floor dropping out from you feeling because you do not. You aren't looking at the world the way the parents are, you know?
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Exactly. So for the parents, they might think, oh, we're finally getting Free of all the suffering. And we're finally getting a new start. You know, we can, we can now be happy again. And it's exactly the opposite for the kids, because like you say, kids don't, kids don't really care if their parents are really happy together. They really don't care. I mean, obviously we don't want people beating each other with fists and things like that and people going to the hospital. That's a whole separate thing. That's not how most divorces are. Statistically. These are low conflict situations and children are naturally. They, they haven't. We talked about Katie Faust, you know, saying that children's rights over adults desires. Children have a natural right to their family. They have a natural right to their mother and their father. Married, living together, raising them. That is a protective society. That's the first society, family. So what the parents are doing is they're ripping away the, the first of all the identity, all the safety, all the protection of a child and pretending that the child is going to think like they think, which is, oh, we finally get free of this. No, you've just completely shattered their foundation, shattered their protection, and there's no going back. You know, how do you, how do you put that back together? I mean, thankfully, some people do come back together, and I pray for that in every case. But someone, someone said, someone in my book said, and it was really powerful image. Divorce is like the parents. You know, you're in an airplane with your, with your parents and you're safe in this airplane. And then, and you're a kid. And then they strap on their parachutes and they jump out of the plane and say, you'll be fine as they're falling and they leave you to navigate the plane that you don't know how to fly.
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B
Right.
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Terrifying. There's nothing more terrifying. This idea that we can just take a child's world and split it into two parts. No home now there's no home. Where's home? Well, home is nowhere. It's, it's nowhere. You're, you're going to be divided now. You're going to straddle two worlds that even the adults couldn't handle. They couldn't reconcile these two worlds. They get to go on, have their new beginning, and you're stuck for the rest of your life for decades and decades until one of them dies, straddling the two worlds that they couldn't even reconcile. And to your point about the one who often is the un, you know, the reluctant, reluctantly divorced parent, that parent then is Left devastated, often suicidal, you know, completely unable to function for a while, probably. And this child suddenly has to be a parent or figure out how to help this, this non functioning parent who has been wronged. I mean, that's an injustice. And also love the offender, you know, or the person who abandoned the other spouse. You got to grow up really fast. But then, you know, at the same time, you've got new romances that might kick in, you've got others, someone who's in therapy and can't even work and can't function and how can they take care of the needs of a child? The child's needs are completely neglected at that point, you know, and that is a failure of adults. It's an absolute failure of adults to take care of children. And again, that's what them before us is all about is, no, no, no, no, you do stay for the children. And you know what, most of the time things are going to get better in your marriage. So. And that's statistically true, like a year or two later, usually you have a better, happier marriage and you overcome these problems. And that is what the children see is, oh, you mean I can overcome problems as opposed to, oh, what am I witnessing? Well, the two people who made me, you know, and God put them together to make me, this is my family, this is my identity. I'm happy. I don't care what they're up to, you know, I don't care if they're even miserable, as long as I've got my security in my family, then that's, that's ripped away. And the child's message that, the message that the child gets, even though the parents say, well, the message is that you see, you, we don't want you to see this as a marriage, we don't want you to. We don't want to model this bad marriage. It's like, no, what the child sees is love stops. The child sees things get bad. So we throw people away. That's what the child sees.
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Yeah, and kids can't distinguish between your ability to do that to your spouse and not do it to them. Why would a kid think, you're not going to throw me away so you can just stop loving? Because, you know, like, kids don't see the mother and father as like people who were unrelated, who came together, which is the reality. It was a man and a woman who didn't know each other at some point and now they do and they decided to become a family. Okay, but that's not really different to a kid than I'm biologically connected to you. So even though there's some deeper, quote, biological connection, all they know is you've been together as long as I've existed and you decided it's just over. So what says you're not going to do that to me? And unfortunately, divorce sometimes does have a parent do that to them. Like you said, it's often men, when they remarry, they stored this. This is anecdotally very true. They'll start a new family because the women are the primary determiners of your social life. That's just kind of always true. So when your dad marries a new woman, he has a new social direction, or maybe he has new kids and new friends and all this stuff. And so this idea, you maybe you've heard this come up in the people who shared, but you know, people will try to say, well, now you get two Christmases or you get two two bedrooms. That's assuming first of all that financially both parents are okay when you separate. So that's not always the case. And then it's also acting like, oh, great now because I have two bedrooms where I'm missing one of my, the people I love the most now I'm supposed to be happier in some way. I got more stuff for Christmas, so that's going to make me feel happier in some way.
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A
Yeah, I mean, that doesn't really, you know, it might at first. I know there's one lady in the book was like, you know, at first it was like, oh, we get more presents. And then she realized, this is awful, you know, this is awful. I don't want more presents. I want my home back. So, yeah, it's, it's, it's a way of again, placating the parents and the adults into feeling better about what they just did to the children. And it is hard to face. I get it. I get it. There's, you know, if in some ways and again, I did a whole article once on there are very similar arguments in support of divorce as there are in support of abortion. You know, so it's a one time thing, you know, you can always try again, you know, oh, it's just, there's freedom, you know, all these different things that they say. But it's the same way with women who've had abortions. When you, when you finally do want to look at what you've done, you know, sometimes it's just too much. It's too much to sit to see it and to own it and to name it. So instead you become an Abortion advocate, you know, in the same way, like for divorce. Like, I can't look at what I did, I can't look at what happened to my children. So therefore I have to become a divorce advocate, you know, and say that it's going to be, it's totally fine. My kids are great. How many times have I heard that from people like, my kids are so happy that we divorced. And I'm like, okay, well, I don't know. They're not going to tell you if they're not happy because they, first of all, they rely on, if they're still minors, they're relying on you for everything that they need to live that, you know, shelter, food, clothing, love, you know, they're not going to suddenly say, yeah, everything you did destroyed me. And then when they're older, what are they going to do? I mean, again, you've got one that's probably wounded from the divorce. You've got other people who are remarried now and they are. It's precarious. Like you said, if somebody remarries, the new spouse is going to take the attention and the precedent and the excitement, even everything you know of the parent and the kid is, you know, and the first family, first families. I had someone who said, you know, practically screaming it in the book, you know, first families matter. First families matter because a lot of times, let's say you're a kid from the first family and your parents get remarried and then they're step kids, there might be half siblings. So you know, the half siblings, your half siblings, they only know an intact family from their, their parents have always been married. Well, your picture with your fan, their picture is always on the wall with their full family because they have the same mom and dad. But your picture, half your family's not on the wall, your mom's not on the wall or your dad's not on the wall, your other siblings, you know, whatever, and you can't ever be in a house where your family is acknowledged and you have to be quiet about your other half of your family. Usually can't talk about it. But your half sibling has no such restraint. I mean, that's half sibling grew up in an intact home with the second marriage. So there's all these complications that these kids have from first families and they feel like, you know, you can't say anything. You feel like second class citizen. You're walking on eggshells because you don't want to bring up something you're not supposed to talk about or disturb adults. So there's so Many complications. And people just never think about it because they're happy in their new romance. And that's the social contract. Used to be the social contract was for the child, that honor and, you know, staying together for the kids and working hard at a marriage till death, you know, that was honor. That was the vow. And now it's. Marriage is about romance. It's not about a family and about these children and raising up children. It's about romance. So if you don't feel the romance anymore, you get to leave. But that's never what marriage was about, was just a feeling of being romantic and, you know, not at all.
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B
Yeah. So based on, you know, all the stories that you cultivated and things you've learned and been impacted by, what. What would be your encouragement maybe to three groups? And I can remind you if, if we lose track where we are. But like, first group of people to encourage would be maybe the folks who are listening to this and they're in a marriage like we've described. That's. It is hard. I am considering this because I can't do this anymore. And like, we make a distinction when there's abuse or it's. Kids are unsafe and those kinds of things, there might be grounds for, for physical separation and support in that way, to not be in the same home for physical, you know, safety. And so that's different than we're not getting along or I don't feel the love anymore. So maybe encouragement for that group. We're in a difficult marriage. Encouragement for someone who's divorced, but they were not at fault. They wanted to stay married, but, you know, they have kids and that's where they are now. But maybe even what's our encouragement for? Maybe there's someone listening to this and they're real, you know, starting to realize I did initiate our divorce and I, I was the reason. But now I'm recognizing this really impacted our kids. You know, what can we. How can we encourage these. These three groups of people?
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A
Well, I'll start with that last one. We. I have had experience of people who've read the book or talked to their kids, are seeing the damage that was actually done. And they have. I had one lady email me and say, I, I recognized myself. You know, I recognized my situation. And my son, who's now in his 30s. I mean, I left. She said, I left my husband and it. I now see what it did to my children. And she said, I, I sat my. I went to my son's house, 30 some years old, and I said, she's in her 70s now. And she said, I, I, I told him without any excuses, no excuses. She said, I am sorry that I ruined your family. I'm sorry that I left your father. I'm so sorry what I did to you, it was, it was wrong. It was unjust, and you've suffered. And she said his whole, he wasn't expecting it and his whole count, you know, everything. She could tell, like a weight had just been lifted from him. And he looked different and he acted differently and thanked her. And she said, I knew that this was so important for him to hear those words from me. And I knew then I had to go to my daughter and do the same thing. So I always tell people, just apologize. Just apologize. Say this was an injustice. I'm sorry. Don't make any excuses or caveats about why you did it. Doesn't matter to the child. Just say you're sorry. That acknowledgement makes them feel not crazy. So it makes them feel, for once I'm not being gaslighted, you know, and someone's not trying to pretend that everything's fine when we know it's not. So just say an injustice was done to you. And even people who aren't the parents can say that to children of divorce. I'm so sorry that this injustice happened to you. You know, how do you feel? What can I do to help? Or what can I. So that's one. Just acknowledge it without any caveats and excuses. People who are abandoned, I mean, this is one of the hardest things to endure because now, you know, you aren't really taking care of your children well because you're just trying to survive. You're financially probably in dire strait. All these horrible things. You know, I always say, do the best you can to still be faithful. I say this because the vow is for life and the kids do better if the new romances don't keep blooming. Stay stable. Be the one in your child's life who, if possible, you know, can remain faithful to the vow even if the other one went off and got remarried or whatever. Be the stable, healthy parent for your child and be that example of fidelity like Christ was. Christ was faithful to his horrible spouse, us, you know, until death. Until death. And he, he kept his value, his promise to us to be faithful. So that goes a long way. Actually, believe it or not, if one parent stays faithful to healing the children and keeping them stable and making them be able to have a good relationship themselves because they've seen this witness of fidelity, that's just her growing, you know, and so you don't have to run off and have another affair of another husband or wife just because you were abandoned. You don't have to do that. All a different mindset than what the culture is telling. And so for people in a tough marriage, oh goodness, there are, first of all, if you're going to go to a pastor or to a therapist, please ascertain ahead of time that that person is marriage affirming and not divorce directing. You know, there's so many who will direct you. Well, yeah, I guess this one is kind of, this is too rough. Stick with someone who really isn't going to give you that, you know, easy exit ramp. You want someone who's going to help you save the marriage. And that's my number one advice. There are examples. I did a follow up book called Impossible Marriages Redeemed and it's got some of the worst situations where people who persevered and really kept their eyes on God and their vow more than like, what am I feeling? Am I happy? Am I not happy? You know, you can. Forgiveness goes a long way. Forgiveness and kindness and self forgetfulness in a very good way to where you're, you're not, you know, I'm so aggrieved. I'm so aggrieved. You know, and then believe it or not, sometimes that other person starts to change when you become a more forgiving, kinder person. And then kids see that example too. So you know, they're always watching. Kids are always watching what you do and you know, not what they do. What is, what does the other person do? What are you doing? They're going to see in the best in you. So I would say do stay together for the kids. Do stick it out. Do try, do, you know, go to good, good counselors and pastors and, and practice the virtues. You know, you're going to be a better spouse if you become more Christ like, you know, as you go along. So, and there's always hope. I mean we, I say Christians who are Christians. If we are not people of redemption, then who are we forgetting who we are? So we don't want to go with the culture which just says it's over, it's disposable, I'm done. No, see what God has. My subtitle to my second book is they didn't end the story in the middle. If you, if you, if you carry that cross through and get to the other side of it, you might find something that God has for you that is absolutely stunningly so much more beautiful than you could ever imagine. And then you've saved your family and you saved your children. So, anyway, so those are. Those are my little snippets of advice here.
- [34:45]
B
Yeah, that's great, Layla. Awesome. All right, people can find you@leilamiller.net right. And pick up the book on Amazon or probably a number of places. Books are sold. Primal Loss. The Now Adult Children of Divorce. Speak. Thank you so much for your time and the writing that you're doing to encourage folks. This is really important work, I think.
- [35:06]
A
Oh, thank you so much, Jennifer. I'm just glad that, you know, there's a chance to. To let people know they're not alone in their suffering and that. That other people do do understand and they do feel the same. And, yeah, you can all try to work to save marriage. That's kind of the number one thing that we need to remember to do as.
- [35:22]
B
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. All right, everyone, we hope you enjoyed this conversation. Thanks so much for listening, and thanks for joining the movement.