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Them Before Us Podcast
Them Before Us #066 | Jonathan Pageau | Retelling Fairytales for a Return to Truth & Beauty
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Hey, everyone. Welcome to the Them Before Us podcast. I'm Jen Friesen and today we have a conversation with Jonathan Pageau. He is an author, speaker, and artist. He and Katie are both on the advisory board for the alliance for Responsible Citizenship, which is a large coalition and conference that Jordan Peterson and a team of folks have put together that Katie and I both got to go to last year. It's a place where they're trying to come up with hopeful solutions to the world's challenges, kind of as opposed to the World Economic Forum that says basically humans should die so the world could survive. And Jonathan has created, or is in the process of creating, a series of children's books, capturing the original fairy tales, pairing them with really fantastic art. Jonathan, thanks so much for coming on our podcast.
- [00:53]
B
Yeah, it's great to be with you.
- [00:55]
A
We love to start our conversations with any guest just by hearing a little bit about them and their background. So I'd love to hear just anything you'd like to share about how you grew up, where you grew up, and maybe even as a kid, were you always interested in the things you now get to do for a career?
- [01:11]
B
Yeah. So I am French Canadian. French is my first language. And I grew up in Quebec, which is the French speaking part of Canada. But when I was quite young, my parents moved to the United States to study and to do different things. And so English has also been like a completely inherent part of my, of my thought. I don't remember a time when I didn't know both languages. And so I kind of see myself in both worlds. I have always interested in art and stories. You know, I remember loving fairy tales when I was a child. And also I remember even as a, even a little older, when I was like a, in my early teens or, you know, 11, 12, 13, I remember having a lot of questions about the fairy tales and wondering, why do they look the way they do and why are they? And so I always had this desire that one day maybe I could participate in retelling these stories in a way that would be powerful. And, you know, so I became an artist. I do all kinds of things. I talk about symbolism in the Bible, symbolism in mythology. And then when I noticed that I heard about how Disney was going to make a version of Snow White for their centennial, I heard it a few years before the project had become public because I knew some people inside Disney and I thought, there's no way they can't. They're not allowed to make this movie because they don't. First of all, Everything about it is wrong. They can't have the kiss. They can't have the dwarves. They can't have. There's nothing about it that they can do. And so I thought this is a great time for people to recapture these stories because they don't want them anymore in some ways. And so I thought, why can't. Why couldn't I retell the story with some of the insight that we've gotten in the modern age? Like, not completely just retelling the virgins that we heard in the Grimm Virgins or whatever, but with great respect and love for those stories. Retell them in a way that was celebratory, but also insightful and, you know, and subtle and witty and dealing with some of the issues, even that the postmodern people criticize. Like, there is, for example, Snow White, the idea of, like, why is it that the prince can kiss this unconscious woman? It's like, that is a problem. It's not a. It's not something that should be completely dismissed. And so I tried to kind of do it, deal with all those issues in a way that was still a fairy tale book for children.
- [03:27]
A
That's really good. When I attended the art conference last year, I noticed a particular focus on art. There was some different interviews. There was a spoken word artist. There was big pieces of art up on the wall. And I guess if you're part of the advisory committee, maybe they had a number of artists maybe trying to say we should have this as a feature. It doesn't seem like conservatives and Christians, maybe in the last few decades have thought that's very important. Right. It's like the facts don't care about your feelings. Truth, truth, truth, truth, data. So why do you think art should matter to Christians, conservatives, people who want there to be a better world?
- [04:06]
B
Yeah. I believe very firmly in what we could call a beauty first approach, because the three transcendentals, Truth, beauty, goodness, truth is harsh sometimes. And we have to. The idea that we could just tell the truth and that people will just fall in line because you told them the truth. We know that that's the lie. You know that's a lie. Because sometimes try doing that with your kids or try doing that with your spouse, and then you'll see what happens. Right. And so I think we. The beauty first approach is mostly realizing that when truth expresses itself in the world, it should be beautiful. That is, it should be something that we care about and we have a desire to attend to. That's what we mean by beauty. Not just visual beauty. But the idea that the world lays itself out for us in. In a way that makes us want to move towards it and makes us want to engage with it. And so that's why I think that in arc, we wanted to be upstream from politics. We didn't want to just stay in the political realm. But understand this notion that politics is downstream from culture. And therefore, if we believe that, therefore, we should engage and we should be able to put things in front of people that are attractive and beautiful, not in a way to manipulate them, but in a way to kind of help them see that we need a desire to engage with reality.
- [05:33]
A
It makes me think about, okay, so let's say there's a news story of some kind of atrocity going on, and people will show images, of course, that are horrible. But like you're saying, truth and beauty going together doesn't necessarily mean it's a good thing or positive or appealing in a sense. But it doesn't mean, like, a desire for beauty doesn't mean you refuse to look at things that are true, but harsh or hard, I guess, what's the balance of that? Because just in, like, the real world.
- [06:06]
B
You know, if you. If you had gone into any church, you know, and if you had gone into any church in the Middle Ages, or even many, let's say, traditional churches today, you have this guy dead on a cross. And so you know that it means that beauty is not just like nice pink, floaty bears or whatever. That's not what we mean by beauty. What we mean by beauty is presenting the world, even the difficult things, in a way that make you understand what their meaning is and helps you understand how you can engage with it properly. And also, in some ways, let's say, having things in their place is also a good aspect of understanding beauty, which is that beauty also. So a good example would be, you know, the circus is fine. The circus has a beauty to it in its place. But if you bring the circuit, the. The circus to Congress or to Parliament or into. Into the government, then the circus is not in its place. It's ugly for all intents and purposes. And so beauty is also about things being in the right place in the right moment. And so, you know, the need to kind of understand the horrors of the world is extremely important. But that. That, let's say that cannot be gratuitous and it cannot be empty. There's no reason to show someone horrible horror, horrific things just for the sake that they exist. We want. If you were going to expose people to the horrors of the world. You have to couch it in a manner that, say, makes it meaningful for the person or gives them a way for them to engage and to transform something. So even the idea of just showing all these dead bodies everywhere in every war, that is not useful, that doesn't help anyone. It doesn't mean that you shouldn't do it sometimes. But the idea that just because it exists that everybody should be seeing it, I think that that's a wrong way of understanding how human beings function.
- [08:07]
A
It's making me think about. I don't know if you've read the Space Tril, or is it the space Trilogy by P.S. lewis? And I think it's the third book where at one point he's in sort of a conference room and they're sort of trying to deprogram him or program him toward their ends. And one of the things CS Lewis talks about is this creepy art all over the wall. Do you remember those? And I can't even think of anything off the top of my head, but he's just writing. It's just everything's bizarre and sort of ugly and disturbing. And when people think about art these days, it's sort of the idea that it's just whatever I think and put together and throw together, that can be art. Right? Modern art. Can you help? Let's say people who know nothing about art. What's the difference between maybe what good art is supposed to be and just modern art? Like me slapping stuff together, putting it together and saying, this goes in a museum.
- [09:00]
B
Yeah. Well, the best way to understand it is about place. It's again, about things being in their proper place. And so in an ancient world, like in the medieval world, for example, you had a place for the grotesque. The grotesque was part of the world. So if you went into a church, you would find in transition spaces, that is, on the outside of the church or in transitional aspects of the architecture, you would find these monsters pulling, you know, throwing their tongue out, sometimes quite lewd, like, you know, showing their bodies and doing all kinds of disturbing things. And you see the same in, for example, medieval manuscripts. In the margins of the manuscript, you'll find all these crazy things, inverted things, and sometimes. And so these are part of reality. They just have to be in the right place. Now, most of modern and contemporary art is in some ways the equivalent of a gargoyle. That is, it is creepy and grotesque and is something that should. That manifests transition. That's a good way to think about it. So the world, the contemporary world, is obsessed with transition. And fluidity and therefore presents to us exceptions and things that are strange and odd and off key and not something that you would normally care for or celebrate. So forcing you to pay attention to that and what secretly kind of happening is that there's a desire to create a change, to create a transition, right? To lead you away from, let's say, the ancient world, right? And so this is something, you know, and so modern art, like in terms of contemporary art, let's say gallery art, it's almost all that. It's all about idiosyncrasy, about revolutionary thinking, about going against normality, about exposing fluidity and change and everything. And that's what it's obsessed with. And the reason is because there's a desire to bring us into a new world, you could say, to bring us towards a new reality. But once you understand that, you can see that this has always been part of the world. It's just that we have to know the difference between what we should celebrate and what we, let's say, look at with a kind of fascination or like a freak show fascination. Those two things are not the same. And we should, as. As people, I think we should. Now, like, this is one of the things we talked about, the fairy tale that I'm doing, this is one of the reasons why I'm doing this, is to say there are things in our culture, in our history, in our past, that are worth celebrating, that are worth remembering and transmitting to our children. And I want people to get back to that right? And to say, here are some of the things that are powerful and worthy and beautiful and let's celebrate them and understand that these other aspects of culture are, let's say they don't have the same function.
- [11:53]
A
Now you're on your website, you say the fairy tales are designed to explore a new way of telling the fairy tales, one which is both aware of our cultural moment and simultaneously committed to honoring the deeply celebratory roots the stories have planted in our common imagination. And it made me think about how, to your point about Disney and Snow White, that whenever they're remaking these things now they're trying to be aware of the cultural moment, but what they're actually kind of doing is sort of projecting or preaching some sort of particular ideology along with it. So they have to intersect all the different things. It feels like there's no connection to what was the original intent of the fairy tale. And they kind of. They don't see any of the symbolism. Like you mentioned, the, the non consensual Kiss. Okay, but is there a symbolism to it that meant something? It's not just chuck it out because he kisses an unconscious person. And that's what it is. It's also, it's like, it's a magical fairy tale world. So how do you balance and what. I guess, what do you mean by trying to put it in our cultural moment in a good way that Disney's kind of missing?
- [12:59]
B
And so one of the ways, for example, is in, in some ways to help the person reading it to understand, like you said, what this is referring to without being pedantic and explaining, but put elements in the story that will give insight to how people understand. So, for example, really, the kiss, the prince kissing the young girl out of death into life. It has to do with puberty. Like, it has to do with. And the story is about puberty. In large part, the story is about a young girl who reaches puberty and is thrown into a trans world of transformation that she doesn't understand and she doesn't know what it's for. And so she's faced with all these grumpy, stupid half men and she's not attracted to them, right? But she doesn't understand what are they for? What are these hairy bodies for? Like, what, what, what's happening? And then she has to learn to work and she has to do all this stuff, but it's like, it's not meaningful. And so she, she is experiencing, you could say, the downside of becoming a woman. That's a good way of understanding it. And so the prince is there to. Is to wake her up and to bring her into the positive aspect of masculinity and femininity, which is getting married, having children. That's amazing, you know, and so in some way, it's, it's a wake up from the, the difficulty of the transition into womanhood. And so you can understand it, by the way, you could all. You can understand it on a big scale of a young girl reaching 12 years old and going through all these changes and then finally encountering her prince. You can understand it at a very small scale, which is, I'm sorry to talk about this, but it's like, it's basically also a menstrual cycle. Like, the whole story is a menstrual cycle. It's like, what is this? Why am I suffering? Like, why am I suffering? Why am I bleeding? What is, what is this for? And the answer is, yeah, it's for you to become a mother and to have this amazing adventure, you know, in a relationship. And so the whole story is structured that way. And so I think that once you can help people see that, then they can understand what the kiss is for. So for example, a little example in our story, what we do is she meets the prince before, at the beginning. She meets the prince and she's too young and the prince is like, I want to take you away, I want to take you away from the castle. Like, let's elope and let's just live our life. And he kind of aggressively moves in to kiss her. And she answers with a phrase from the book of the Song of Songs, which is, do not awaken love before it's time. And it's like, oh, okay, I get that. But then when the prince comes and see her and he finds her dead, he remembers her saying, don't awaken love before it's time. And so he knows that now's the time to kiss her. And so you can see, oh, that's what this is about. Like it's about all those things. It's about the right, you know, the awakening out of puberty, the awakening into the right moment for a union between a man and a woman. All of these things. But it's all very subtle. Like obviously I'm explaining this to you. None of this is in the story. Like the story is totally appropriate for a six year old of any, you know, of any, of any thinking. We don't, we don't explain this. But to help the fairy tale is there to help the child connect with these realities in a very intuitive and gentle way. It's almost like fairy tales to some extent are like something like trauma therapy. Like they're there to kind of help them get through life with, with an anchor of images and an anchor of narrative that will accompany them as they have to go through these changes.
- [16:33]
A
Well, and that's a big contrast to what maybe the more secular world or the more progressive world thinks conservatives are saying about femininity. Like the story is showing that the bad version is kind of being enslaved and just doing a bunch of tasks for men that aren't fully functional, informed and they don't really care about you and there's no relationship. Yeah, but we're not saying, yeah, just go do whatever, just get the first underdeveloped guy you find who wants you and go slave in the kitchen for the rest of your life. It's like, no, the hopeful, beautiful part of the story is they self sacrificial love. A person who comes and rescue, rescues you. And then there's partnership like you're saying it's femininity and masculinity the way they're supposed to be, not this, like, sort of false version. It's just really funny because you wouldn't think that if they read it that way, they would see maybe more what the good intent is. But Disney kind of just wants to.
- [17:28]
B
Well, now they got it right the first time, the first Disney. Snow White is an absolute masterpiece. Like, it's a beautiful, a wonderful thing. And you could say that the whole story of Snow White is about, in some ways, the difficulties, the pitfalls and the opportunities of womanhood. That's what the story is about. And the same with beauty, like, the question of beauty. And what is beauty for? And is beauty dangerous? And what happens when you weaponize it? What happens when you try to use beauty, which is one of the most powerful things in the world, by the way, when you try to use it to get, you know, advantages for yourself rather than in. Finally, in the story of Snow White, like, the idea is that her beauty really becomes a. A vehicle for her union with the right person, like you said, and the become coming into the fullness of herself, but also fullness of a relationship with someone else. Whereas the witch, the queen, you know, she basically, like, in the version I tell too, she. She kind of tricks and seduces the king and. And basically is one of the. In my version, she is like, kind of secretly, you can tell that she possibly is the one that had him killed. Like, you're not totally sure, but there's something odd going on. And so you can see that she's completely weaponizing her beauty. And because she's obsessed with it, and she looks in the mirror and she keeps asking the mirror to tell her how beautiful she is, and it devours her and it forces her to sacrifices the very thing she cares about in order to get it right. And when you see like the caricatures of. Of plastic surgery, you know, for example, that you see, there's a great example of a Snow White narrative, which is someone who becomes so obsessed with beauty that they. That they actually end up sacrificing their beauty in order to have it, and they become monsters without even knowing what's happening to them, you know?
- [19:19]
A
Yeah, well, I was going to ask you kind of where the witch came into it as part of it, sort of that. That's where. That's maybe kind of what you were saying is that's where femininity, you know, again, toxic, where it can be. It can go if you're not honing it into the right direction, it can go to this extreme.
- [19:38]
B
Of course. I mean, the story of Snow White is really about, in many ways, not just that, but it's about a lot of things. But it definitely is about the power of, of feminine femininity. It's about how powerful women are and how powerful, you know, and how dangerous that is. Like how dangerous it is to themselves. Right? And how dangerous it is, it is for the world around them if that, if that power is not, let's say, placed in service of something good and something, something beautiful. And so the contrast between, of course, the queen and the young girl is the most important structure in the story and shows you that contrast, you know, and you can see like even, you know, in the version, the grim version, and in my version, the queen goes there three times. She goes to see Snow White in the forest three times. And every time she brings to her a supplement to her beauty. She has like, here's this beautiful comb that you can put in your hair. Here's a beautiful corset, you know, that you can, that you can put on yourself. And it's like, why is she doing that? You know, isn't Snow White supposed to be the most beautiful in the world? So why is she also trying, why is she trying to make Snow White more beautiful? You know, and all of this, like these, they're all the questions that a young girl who hits puberty has to ask herself. You know, all these. And you see it like my daughters, I could see it, you know, this, like, this move towards makeup, you know, when they're like 10, 11, this, like drive towards it. And you're trying to say, okay, like I'm not against makeup, but like, what is, when does supplementing your beauty, when is it positive? And when does it become a trap? A trap for others and a trap for yourself? You know, because everybody knows that like 55 year old woman that just without knowing it, has become this like monstrous clown with like, you know, so much makeup that they can't even see themselves anymore properly. And so the story of Snow White deals with all that stuff. Like it, it's all embedded into its, it's, it's story structure. It's very powerful story.
- [21:41]
A
Yeah, that's awesome. I love it. I can't wait to. I'm looking at the symbolic, your symbolic world dot com. The symbolic world dot com is your website and people can see all sorts of cool. I saw an article, I, I, I bookmarked it to read it because you talked about the arrival the movie about the aliens, I think. So interesting. That's totally off topic, but I'm like, oh, I can't wait to see what he said about that. But how many of the fairy tales have you written or.
- [22:06]
B
Or had two that are published? And what we're doing is we're doing a. A kind of girls side and boys side. And they'll come together in the end. But so we're going to have eight fairy tales. And then we'll have like, we started with Snow White and then Jack and the Beanstalk. Those are the two. So it's called Snow White and the Widow Queen and Jack and the Fallen Giants. And then what we're also going to do is those eight fairy tales are actually going to start to cross over each other. And so we're going to use. This is what. One of the aspects of saying, like, in the cultural moment is that one of the ways that fairy tales have been recaptured in the past few decades is what you could call the fairy tale mashup, where people take a bunch of fairy tales and put them in one story, like Shrek, for example. But in Shrek, it's done so cynically. It's like everything about it is upside down. Like the whole story is a reverse fairy tale. And they try to show how witty they are and how smart they are and kind of understanding the power dynamics that are hidden, the fairy tales. So what we want to do is do that as well. So the characters will cross over into the books. So, like, let's say the. I mean, a simple example, right? So the queen in Snow White will become the witch in Rapunzel, et cetera, et cetera. And like, the same character will continue and they'll have their own character arcs. But we're doing it hopefully to help people see, like to have some insight about these stories and understand them more powerfully rather than just become cynical about them.
- [23:29]
A
This is a little niche, but have you. Did you ever watch the show Once Upon a time or hear about it?
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B
Yeah, yeah. The Disney. Is that the one you're talking about?
- [23:40]
A
Yeah, it was an ABC TV show of basically all the fairytale characters got moved into the modern world and trapped in a city. It was just interesting. Did you see it? Did you ever watch it?
- [23:50]
B
No, that. My wife and my daughters watched it and I was very. I disliked it. I disliked it because of exactly. What I'm saying is that it was in some ways a kind of very cynical. They did that with also with the. Called into the woods, that, that. That musical play yeah, where it's very dark and cynical. And, you know, there's a. There's a kind of idea that maturity is cynicism. Like, you, you know, you, you see that a lot of people think that if we create a kind of cynical soap opera version of fairy tales, then we're appealing to adults. But, you know, what we're trying to do is in the fairy tales, there's going to be a children's reading and an adult reading level. So hopefully the adult will be able to see things that the child will not be able to see in the fairy tale. But it won't be like, dirty jokes and cynicism like in Shrek or these, these other, these other types of storytelling. It'll be insight. It'll be something like, oh, I never understood why Snow White did this, and now I get it because I can see, like, in the way that it's told, that it's making. And especially as the stories continue on and the characters repeat. So, like, simple example again, you know, Snow White and Rapunzel, you realize that they're actually like opposites. So Snow White, it's the woman who is jealous of the young girl and ejects her and basically throws her out into the world without being prepared for the world because of that. And then Rapunzel, it's the woman who, like, just devours the child and keeps her completely protected and for that same reason doesn't prepare the child for the world either. And so like, we have the witch flip from one to the one extreme to the other, like, go from some ways the evil queen that ejects the daughter to, like, the devouring mother that, like, overprotects her. And both of them create these, these, let's say, side effects that are dangerous for the, for the young woman. And so, like, these are little examples, but we hope that people will be able to see, oh, why is she acting the opposite? And you see, oh, no, this is two. Two like, aspects of motherhood that can go wrong. And we're kind of exploring it in the story.
- [25:54]
A
That's so good. I just think I'm not necessarily a person that naturally thinks this way, but it's almost like you're saying as adults read these books, we can kind of recapture some of that imaginative but. But important thinking. It's not like you're saying it's not become childlike, like never mature, but it's saying mature without being cynical. Be intellectual and thoughtful about it, and then see how these things translate into the real world, not stay immature forever.
- [26:23]
B
No, that's exactly right. And the truth is that fairy tales are not for kids. Folks like not to mean that they're not for kids. They're not only for kids there are they. They. The, the profundity of the fairy tales is really second to the gospels in terms of how deep those stories are and how much reality they have in them. And so it is really worth it as an adult. And it's so amazing because. And that's the. Some ways what I wanted to do is for me, the experience of sitting with my child and reading them stories, you know, like before bedtime, is one of the most precious memories that I, that I have. And when I was doing it, I was lucky. I'd. For some reason I have this weird capacity to see these things. And so I was rereading the stories to my kids and I was like, oh my goodness, this is amazing. Like this story is so deep and I could just see the profundity in the stories and I thought, oh, I wish that I could facilitate that for other people. Like, I wish I could give. Write a fairy tale that the grown up reads to their child. And when they're done with the story, they realize that they got as much out of it as the child did, but it's not the same thing. And so that's what I wanted because I just love these stories. I think they're so potent, beautiful.
- [27:36]
A
That's awesome. So the only place people can get these books is your website now?
- [27:40]
B
Yes. So we wanted, so we've had several, we've had several offers from publishing companies to publish them, but we really want control over these stories. We have amazing illustrators because companies like Disney and these big companies are dropping the good stories. A lot of artists are actually tired. And so we were able to get amazing top level illustrators. The book is beautiful. We made it almost like a treasure object with debossing and foiling, an extremely complex cover that, that if you see it, you'll realize it's just absolutely stunning. And so we want to create these treasure objects. And the only way we could do it, at least at the outset, was to do it on our own. So we're doing it on our own. People can go to our Shopify and get the books and expect every six months a new book is coming out. So we already are illustrating Rapunzel, which is almost done actually. And then we have the next one, which is the Valiant Little Tailor. And then we're going to continue Sleeping Beauty, et cetera, et cetera. And so we have Eight in all.
- [28:44]
A
They. I mean, I got to see just some of the examples in PDF and just looking at it on your website, it looks gorgeous. It's so amazing. I'm about to put it in my cart right now.
- [28:53]
B
Yeah, but it's such an opportunity because, look at, like, we. I know even as a father, my kids are older now, but even when they were young, I would go to the look on Amazon or go to a bookstore, and the illustrations were all so annoying. Like, it was all this weird, like, just droopy, you know, like. And I remember being a child being so enticed by detail and, you know, and so the way we did Snow White, for example, like, I. I've hired parents tell me this. They say, oh, my child is noticing. And we did it on purpose. Like, there's a. There's a candle here in this page, and then there's a candle in this page, but now it's. It's snuffed out. This one. It's. It's. It's on this one. It's off. It's like, oh, there's a crow on this page. And then the crow reappears in this other place and the child is just. You know, children are amazing. They. They look over these books over and over and they, like, find all the details. And I'm like, that's amazing. Like, I'm just so excited that I was able to bring that experience to children because I remember being young and reading these types of fairy tales and just loving the detail and the illustration.
- [29:52]
A
There's something so magical about having these books read to you and then getting to do it for the other kids in your life now, too. Yeah. So that's awesome. So is the symbolic world the best place to go find you?
- [30:01]
B
Yeah. So for now, symbolic world.com go to store, and that's where you can. You can find the books. In the next, like, year maybe or so, we are going to end up with Amazon Distribution, but for now, that's the only place to do it. And we're building our own publishing company. So it's like step by step doing it in the right order. And so. Yeah. And you can. And people like, I really believe in these stories. Like, I really think that this is the future. And, you know, that the way that the media companies, the way they're doing it now is failing. And it's failing because they don't really understand the stories and they don't understand what kids actually care about. And I think that this more celebratory return to the beautiful stories and doing it with care and attention. You know, I can't see how it's not the future, so.
- [30:49]
A
And for people to find any of your other work, is that also the best website? Yes.
- [30:52]
B
Symbolicworld.com. that's the place to go. Also. We talk a lot about these stories, but I do a lot of. There are also, for example, for the Snow White book and the Jack book, there's a book called the Symbolism of Snow White. And that's like, if you want to go into the symbolism on a. More really now that's an adult reading to talk about how it relates to some of the. All the symbolism from the Bible to mythology. And also in terms of coming of age, all of this is explored in those books. So it's like a companion for adults who want to go deeper into the stories. We're going to have a version of that for every single fairy tale. But then also you can find, you know, I have a YouTube channel and we have a podcast. We do courses for like, for even for homeschool type people. We did an amazing course on Beowulf for parents who want to, like, learn about these legends and be able to translate them and to kind of bring them into their family life. We did one on Dante, on the divine comedy, on C.S. lewis's books. So all these are available on the website. You can find them.
- [31:50]
A
That's awesome. Jonathan, thank you so much for your work and all your time that you've put into just making the world beautiful and. And your time just for us and our audience today.
- [31:58]
B
Well, thanks, Jen. It was great. A lot of fun.
- [32:00]
A
Awesome. Thanks everyone for listening. We hope you enjoyed this conversation and thank you for joining the movement.