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Them Before Us Podcast
Them Before Us #081 | Marriage Forces You to Grow or Quit and Why That's GOOD | #ANDnotOR
00:51:10
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- [00:01]
Tracy Linder
Foreign.
- [00:10]
Cameron Linder
Hey, everyone. Welcome to the Them Before Us podcast where we talk about all things children's rights. And we often have conversations with friends and organizations that are also doing pro life, pro family work. But today we have some special guests. They are really good friends of our Them Before Us organization. Cameron and Tracy Linder. Good to see you guys. Thanks for joining us.
- [00:32]
Host
Hi.
- [00:34]
Cameron Linder
We met Cameron and Tracy. Oh, you know what? Where did we meet you for the very first time? I feel like you read a book and showed up somewhere or emailed us.
- [00:42]
Tracy Linder
Yeah, I, a little bit felt like a stalker at first because I. I read an article from Katie Faust and the Federalist and it was talking all about equipping our young, our children and kind of that middle age group to go out into the world and have a strong worldview. And I was like, this just makes a lot of sense. I really like what she's saying. And I started looking at them Before Us organization that she was tied to. And then I realized that there were so many ties to our life and circumstances with IVF and considerations like that. And I just started to get the bug and I was like, I want to know more. After that, we just started saying, how can we help? How can we get connected? That was a long time ago, though.
- [01:26]
Host
Like, yeah, I mean, it just, it was a mission and it was a argument ultimately that resonated with our experience. And there was a lot of the same shared conclusions that we had come to in our journey that Katie was very eloquently and more forcefully outlining. And so there was that. That was that resonance and, and that translated into a really focused passion and wanting to support the message and support the advocacy in an area that, as Katie says, you know, steps on everybody's toes. And I'm all about stepping on everybody's toes. I'm a challenger and people need to be challenged.
- [02:05]
Cameron Linder
Yeah, that's great. Well, again, you guys were such a great fit to join us. And we've. Some people maybe have seen. We had a real, like a video of an event we did at a barn, kind of a barn museum that Cameron and Tracy have down by their house and a really incredible spot. So you guys have just been awesome friends. And one of the things we're doing in this, the next few months, this and not or campaign where we're focusing on the importance of children having both a mother and a father, is that we wanted to chat with some of our friends that we know who are married. So representing, you know, a married couple, a mom and a dad that are raising kids and also have some experiences, you know, hey, where you were growing up. All of us can talk about things in our family growing up that weren't ideal, even though as adults we can probably look back and say, hey, I know my parents were doing their best, but Cameron and Traci were just two folks that we identified. Hey, let's have them on the podcast to talk a little bit about marriage. What does it mean to raise kids? How have you seen that gender complementarity working well in raising kids? And just, you know, just a more of an anecdotal. Sometimes we're like science news stories, and sometimes it's fun just to hear someone's story of how they're parenting well and the things you've learned. So maybe I'll just start with Cameron and then Tracy, just share just briefly your family experience growing up and maybe your experience with your mom and dad, and then we can kind of move into marriage and parenting.
- [03:36]
Host
Sure. So I'm an only child, so you can apply all the stereotypes there. But my family, my parents are married, still married. They actually live on the property with us. So if you want to talk about in law, boundary dynamics, we're very well informed at this point on those. But my family is really a long history and culture. Being a lender is a thing. You know, it's not like it's a graduation set of criteria, but it's a concept in addition to a surname. And that's just informed by a whole lot of history. My family's history was in the Central California region going back to the 1870s. You know, I've got mountain men and cowboys and entrepreneurs, et cetera, in my family history. And then my mom's family came from Oklahoma. They were farmers. And so my dad owned an insurance business that I eventually purchased from him and expanded. My mom was a teacher for over three decades. And, you know, for me, I always had a very stable, well defined family. Again, very strong culture, although it's not super popular to say today, I would say very much a patriarchal type of culture, and yet some extremely strong willed, strong personality women in that family dynamic as well. And I think that's a very western, cowboy style to it, where everybody's pretty strong and outspoken, but. But there is still a structure there. So that's a little glimpse into kind of my family history.
- [05:09]
Tracy Linder
Do you want to talk about the like go against the man? The like.
- [05:13]
Host
That's that cowboy. Yeah, there's a cowboy spirit.
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Tracy Linder
Don't tell me what to do is probably the best way.
- [05:17]
Host
Yeah, there's a strong cowboy spirit. You know, my grandfather quit high school when he was, when he was in high school because they wouldn't let him hitch his horse to the front of the school anymore, you know, so it very much a. Don't tell me what to do. I can figure it out. Very strong independent spirit about the Lender family that it doesn't matter which lender you meet, you sense that immediately.
- [05:42]
Cameron Linder
That's awesome. What about you, Tracy?
- [05:46]
Tracy Linder
So for me, I, I was raised in a military family. My dad served in the air force for 30 years. And so we were very used to moving all around, but we were a very close knit family. My parents are still together and we just kind of, we had a lot of. My mom is just an incredible woman who is basically the kindest woman I've ever met. She'll do anything for anybody except for herself, I think. And, and so just an incredible model of kindness and devotion. And so our family was very often forced because of the military to adjust to a lot of different circumstances and move around a lot. And because of that, we ended up in a circumstance where I had great models, but I didn't always know and define very clearly what I believed. And so I, as I was moving around, you know, we would have to pick a church every place that we went, and we would have to pick schools. And it was just a lot of trying to figure out how you fit in each spot. And so then when I went to college and was kind of defining things on my own terms, it took me a little bit of time and error, I would say, to really start defining who I was in a more clear way. And probably the biggest catalyst to that was meeting Cameron because he challenged basically every belief that I had and, and put me through the ringer of like an interview when we first started dating. And so it's actually very funny the questions that he asked me in our first date, which was, like I said, just mostly an interview of questions that I had to answer and how undefined I really was at that time. And so, yeah, my upbringing was wonderful, but just very, just very flexible because we were always moving and kind of this definition of like whenever your family can get together, that's when the special moments happen. My dad was not always there for holidays, but, you know, know we did our best. And so just a very flexible nature in that way, but very committed to like quality family time. And just like a good example, as.
- [07:58]
Host
Seems to be the theme with Tracy and I, we're very much opposites. We Share certain core, you know, I would say foundational elements and things, but, you know, where she was very flexible. You know, I was voted in high school most likely to not change.
- [08:15]
Tracy Linder
Wow.
- [08:16]
Host
And so where she was, you know, somewhat undefined in certain areas, I was always very defined and very reasoned and informed and those kinds of things. So it's an interesting pairing between the two of us because it's. It's one of opposites, for sure.
- [08:37]
Cameron Linder
Yeah.
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Tracy Linder
Well, I would say when we're talking about opposites, one of the major ways that our families are different is that my family operates out of being as considerate as you can. You know, my dad will notice that I, you know, having gotten around to cleaning up the dog poop, and he'll be like, I'm out there, and he'll just do it. My mother will, like, help with anything that she sees along the way. Hosting is all about making sure that everybody's needs are met and that you're just thinking about how to be most considerate to people. That's a little bit opposite of the cowboy mentality. And so we realized as we grew together that our family dynamics were quite. While both good, just a little bit at odds in terms of becoming comfortable with the routines that we might have as a family.
- [09:20]
Host
Yeah. We've certainly learned that there are two different styles, if you will, of hospitality. I would say both of our families are very hospitable, but my family's brand of hospitality is much more impromptu or much more informal, I think. I would say. Not that hers is formal. I don't mean to say that. But, you know, again, I think it's just. It's a major difference between kind of a. What I might classify as a more Midwestern style versus a true, like, Western, more rural, perhaps, style.
- [09:54]
Tracy Linder
Like, we like to know that you're coming and put things away and hide things and pretend like we're, you know, really organized. Well, we like to be organized, but, yeah, there's definitely like a. Oh, somebody's coming. Let me do the steps to make sure that everything can be nice for everybody. And.
- [10:09]
Host
And my family's like, you want lunch? There's meat in the fridge.
- [10:12]
Cameron Linder
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's great. Well, I wonder. It sounds kind of like Cameron probably a lot, because you had this strong family culture, and then for both of you to have a positive view of marriage, you probably went into marriage more intentionally than maybe the average young person. And I believe you two met in the military, and were you maybe mid-20s or something when you got married?
- [10:37]
Host
Yeah, I think I was 28 when we got married.
- [10:40]
Tracy Linder
Okay. Yeah, I was 27.
- [10:42]
Cameron Linder
So it's not like two 19 year olds, you know, right out of college, like, hey, we're in love. And that's about all they think about. It sounds like you kind of went into it with some more intentionality and then have learned how those things, how your family cultures have to merge into a new family culture.
- [10:57]
Host
Yeah, definitely. I was always extremely intentional. I didn't date unless I thought there was marriage potential. And that was certainly an informative process. You continually refine what you think you like and then what works and then what you actually like and need. So I was always probably too intentional.
- [11:18]
Tracy Linder
And I mean, I was very committed to a relationship that I wanted to be very long term. I think what we started to find. Correct me if I'm wrong, Cameron, but I really feel like there was this mentality of we think marriage is important. We got in this to stay. But I think what I started to learn is that there's a big difference between saying, I will not divorce and saying I'm committed to a healthy marriage. It takes a lot of work and it's very difficult. And especially like in our cases where we have really opposite personalities in many ways that maybe we didn't realize fully when we started, even though we tried to be very intentional about things. And so I think just that journey of having to really recognize that it's not enough to just stay, it's important to work at it and to kind of let go of the family approaches that you had and start creating a family approach that's defined by the two people that started a new family was kind of the more jarring part, I would say, for me, at least, in recognizing that. But we did both come into it with serious conversations like, we will not, you know, we will not divorce. We want to do this for the long term. And we both had that commitment.
- [12:33]
Host
I think going in divorce was just never an option. And we committed to that very early on. And a lot of that, of course, was informed by our. Our faith and the strength of reasoning and belief behind what we read in the scriptures. But. But even. Just from even our own family backgrounds. Right. Like both sets of marriages on either side of the family have had their ups and downs, you know, some higher, some lower. Right. And they both have their own marriage dynamics that you either as a child, liked or didn't like. But to a point that Katie makes very often, like that permanency shows a child and certainly showed us that, like, through that all, like so much of the ups and the downs, are ultimately temporary. Right. And one of the things that, I mean, I'm at least fond of saying. I think Tracy agrees. This is something we say, you know, is marriage forces you to do one of two things. Become a better person or quit. And even if you're staying in it, you know, just that avoidance is a form of quitting. You know, we call it quiet quitting. Right.
- [13:41]
Tracy Linder
Passivity.
- [13:41]
Host
But. But ultimately the goal is be a better person. Like, have the self analysis, have the self reflection, get help that you need, whether from, you know, close friends. It's always good to have company in that regard. Marriages don't. Marriages aren't the same, but they do rhyme. Like, these are all things that a person should lean into, not only for their own sake, but certainly for their kids.
- [14:05]
Cameron Linder
Well, in marriage. Oh, sorry. I was just gonna say it seems like, you know, marriage. What other relationship, you know, I have really close friends or I've had roommates. Where they see there's a level of intimacy because you share. That's not always that fun. It's. Anytime you let someone have a level of intimacy with you or be in your space is dangerous, quote unquote. I mean, because it's a mirror, you're now going to start realizing, you know, hey, you're leaving this stuff on the floor. You're not picking up after yourself, hey, the way you talk to me or the way you looked at me was like, really made me bummed out. Or you have this mirror now who's reflecting your behavior that you can kind of get away with when you just go outside of the house and go hang out with people. So I think a lot of people. Well, so that's just fascinating. You know, you're entering into that and in the infatuation stage, everything's awesome. And it's like the love goggles. And then, you know, infatuation fades away and. Or hard things happen and there's real life, or you're doing something that's driving your. Your wife or your husband nuts. And you have to evaluate. Hey, sometimes we just have to get over a little annoyance. Sometimes it's like, no, I need to change my behavior because it's hurting that person's feelings or I shouldn't be doing that. And so that's quite difficult. Could you guys speak a little bit to just. There's young people now, there's young people who did not have a good experience with marriage with their parents, their parents divorced or they had a con. High conflict Marriage and the marriage rates right now, pretty low. Divorce rates have declined because marriage has declined. Why would a young person, a 20 something, listening to this, like, what's the point? Why should anybody get married? You know, what's good about it? That someone should be like, oh, that is a reason. Like, I could look forward to that. Or get excited about that institution.
- [15:52]
Tracy Linder
Yeah, I mean, I. I really think that we don't truly start to grow as people into our full potential, really, until we experience marriage and family. Because like you said, it is a mirror. And we really start to impact other people around us in a much more substantial way than. Than we ever have before in our lives. And so I really feel like it's super important when I talk to young women in our congregations and stuff. Like, you can get to a certain point in growth where you're like, okay, I feel like I, you know, I understand. And for, for me, that point I like to. When I'm doing, When I'm comfortable, I like to have, like, control of my environment. And. And you can do that very easily when you're by yourself. You can really, like, ramp that up. You can, like, curate a world that really works for you. And marriage was this defining moment for us, which I wouldn't even say our honeymoon stage did not last very long. I would say our dating time was much more. Our exciting and, like, just really fun time. When we got to the point of living together, it was not easy because we, you know, I was 27, he was 28. So we had to find a world in our own individual worlds that made sense. We had two dogs each, and we were trying to figure out how that was all going to come together. You know, we had house space that he had, a whole defined set of furniture. And it was like, well, where do I fit? You know? So we were doing a lot of this stuff and we had a lot of churn during that time. But in the end, I think you grow best when you actually are forced to think about somebody outside of yourself and your systems start to fail a little bit because a world that's only centered around your needs is not going to force the growth that you need, maybe in the same way. And so ours is a very, very clear example of that because we're so different. But, like, that marriage was that. And then I think the second layer of that is children. Children really start to define your character more clearly. When you're trying to teach a child something that's important about character, you start to see the mirror for yourself in huge ways. So, so you can always think that you're doing great and doing fine when you're single, I think. And then there's the refinement that just comes when you pair yourself with somebody. And then when you try to create a family that either is different or similar in certain ways from what you had.
- [18:16]
Host
I think for me, it's sometimes helpful to look at the question from the standpoint of, well, what's the alternative? Well, the alternative ultimately is some degree of loneliness. Some degree of, I mean, for a man, I think especially pretty severe loneliness, you know, again, from the very beginning, all the way back to Genesis. Like it's really not good for a man to be alone and he can have his friends and he can have all those things and he can have his toys and he can go make lots of money and do all these things. But ultimately, you know, whether you have a big house or a small house, a boat or hopefully not a boat or you know, a fleet of really fast cars that I would salivate over and really want to have. Right. Like these things are all temporary. Ultimately they all break down and somebody can say, well, marriage is the same. Well, if you make it that way, like ultimately, again, marriage is one of those things that forces growth and forces change if done right. And that's why one of the reasons why I like recommending to young people, like, look, marry a good person. Like marry somebody with good moral values, that has a good work ethic, that has some capacity for self analysis and that is at least nominally interested in growing. Like, that's what will make your marriage good and lasting. You know, romance is, is way overrated. But ultimately, like marriage is the thing that will generate more personal growth and ultimately more satisfaction and permanency if you actually invest into it. Marriage is not a, marriage is not a solution. Marriage is a process. And you have to be willing to trust that process and go through that process in good faith. I mean, that would be my sales pitch. The alternative is really bad, you know.
- [20:08]
Tracy Linder
Yeah, well, and I mean, we've also, we've also seen such circumstances with our friends where they've married a good person, but that person was not committed to Christ when they started. And you know, I, I, there's a lot of people that have different views on religion, but if you start the pairing out of balance, then that oftentimes creates an intense level of pressure that you really want that person to change. And coming into a circumstance where you really intensely want somebody to change is a really bad recipe for, for difficulty in the marriage. And so like, having that, that aligned, I think is very, very important. And I think it becomes harder for couples if maybe they started out both not and they thought that was aligned. And then somebody changes along the way. You know, the scriptures speak to that, how hard it can be to influence your family when you're in different roles. And now, like, you know, the new Christians, some of them were Jews and some of them became Christians and there were these divides. And so I think that becomes really important. And basically, if you're coming into it really desiring that somebody changed substantially, you probably need to slow down and just ask yourself if you could really be okay if nothing changed for a long time, you know, because a good person will get you a good portion of the way. Good values is very important. But being out of alignment on something that is one of your most important pillars is, Is really a recipe to make it very difficult for you in, in your circumstances.
- [21:37]
Cameron Linder
Yeah, worldview alignment. So whether you're religious or not, the big worldview questions of how do we get here? What is the purpose? You know, chief end of man? What happens after we die? You know, what does it mean to be good or bad? Do I believe those things even exist as concepts? If people don't agree on worldview questions, you're going to have a really hard time living your life very intimately with that person, you know, the rest of your life if you want it to be permanent, if you want it to be exclusive. So you're pointing out we have these personality differences and these family differences, but the shared core worldview is what you can always come back to, especially if it's things like, you're annoying me with this behavior. Sometimes tapping into my worldview is what helps me change. Me doing something I shouldn't be doing, not just, well, I'm going to change it just so this person likes me better or something. Right. So can we transition a little bit just into. Because we're in our in not war campaign. We're talking about every child has a right to the mother and father they came from. You know, this isn't. This isn't bigotry. We're just talking about biology. This is common sense. This is how the world works. It makes sense. If a child shows up, he or she has a mom and dad. Why should they be taken away or lose that relationship? And so you two are parents. And so I'm just curious for you to share maybe some ways that you've seen the differences in mothering and fathering and how your kids, I believe you have Two sons.
- [23:08]
Tracy Linder
Yes.
- [23:10]
Cameron Linder
In the differences in how each of you is providing things that they need to grow. And. And, you know, you're training up young men, but, you know, they need both of you. And how. Have you seen sort of that complementarity in raising your kids?
- [23:27]
Host
Tracy's written and talked a fair amount on this subject, so I'll get my two cents in and then let her finish the answer. You know, we're. Our two boys are very reflective of the two of us. You know, my older son is my spitting image physically, but, you know, I swear, has 75% of my wife's brain. And my younger son is like the exact opposite, you know, probably 80% of my brain. And, you know, I don't know, physically there. He's more like Tracy on that side. But the point is, like, the two boys are as opposite in some ways as the two parents. And that provides a structural advantage almost frankly, because it provides both validation and example for their relationship as brothers, but also to their relationship with each of us and the unique elements they. They resonate with. With us in. In that journey. And. And, you know, when you remove that mirror, the kid knows, right. Like. Like, kids notice when things are not the same, and you can't fake that. And. And so when you remove one of those elements, the biological parent, the kid knows something's missing. And. And of course, that is that element of, hey, something's missing. That is the ingredient for so much struggle that all people go through. You know, something's missing, I'm not good enough. Something's wrong, I'm other. Whatever. All those things, like, those are real feelings, and they tend to get seated in childhood. Right. So those things for us have been hugely helpful because not only have our kids helped us understand each other better and be better to each other, but they, of course, it's like, okay, Cameron, go speak to our younger son, because I'm not getting it. You know, we put our limit. Yeah. And vice versa. So it's that mirror again, to use that metaphor, the mirror, like, has been so critically helpful in us being there for our kids and hopefully guiding them and helping them, you know, understand their limits. And when I say limits, I really mean like, hey, you struggle with this. You struggle with this. Because I struggle with this. And this is how I can help you. This is what I figured out that works for me to manage it. You know, that. Good, because, like I said, you've written and talked a lot about this subject.
- [25:53]
Tracy Linder
Yeah. Well, this family dynamic has been really, like, almost laughable to me. When I reflect on it, because I just had no idea at the time when I was signing up for it that I was. We did a personality assessment after we had been married for a little while and we found that Challenger personality and Cameron to be pretty clear. And then I looked into what mine was. I'm kind of like moralist, kind of perfectionist side of things. And, and when we looked at the pairing of marriages with those two, they compared it to a pirate and a school teacher getting married. And I had never felt so, like, understood in a personality assessment before. I was like, that is what I feel like we. And so when it came to parenting, I think there's, there's a beauty that we get with young children and their innocence. They do share a lot of our personalities in, in, in opposites as, as Cameron mentioned. But there's. In terms of the marriage dynamic, there's a, a pure sense of innocence that comes with children where they're, you can tell they are naturally wired a certain way and there's no, there's no mal intent behind it. Like, they literally are just being who they are. And when I saw that so clearly from when they were young, how different they were and how I could relate more with the processing, like the thought processing of my older son and stuff, it just gave me so much more of a heart towards my husband because I was like, he's not just trying to make me mad. Like, he's not just out there. No, my husband, like, so my husband's not trying, not trying to be super mean when he's like, doing things his normally wired way. It's just how he operates. And starting to appreciate that, I think was really helpful for me because the pirate mentality, we call it a rebel spirit in our house and we say it lovingly now. That rebel spirit was just, it was really jarring to me. I'm a rule follower. I like to follow a process. I, you know, and so it was just really hard for me to, to adjust at first. And so seeing my children have those same similar personality traits, like, just showed me like, he's not being mean to me. We're just going to need to figure it out. It's just really different. And, you know, it kind of took away some of that intent problem that I think we struggle with in marriages with like, oh, like, they're just out to get me or, you know, when you're really stuck or they don't care. Or they don't care. Yeah. And it just, it really helped with that. But so as it as it relates to our boys, I think it's so important that they have the two of us. I tend to be the much more structured and disciplinarian focused one. That doesn't mean we don't agree very much on what our discipline process maybe is going to be. But I am more of a hardliner with that stuff. I want, I want to see the, that impact and so they get that from me. We can relate to them in their personality and their thought processing. We can literally send one of us when it seems more appropriate, you know, and, and I just like, I mean the best, the best person to speak to my rebel spirit, younger one is to send in the pirate head over here and just be like, hey, you know, like, I get it. But like, you know, our, our gifts are meant to serve others and, and we need to recognize that, like, it's not always so important maybe to do things exactly how I want to. But I also learned a lot of the importance of freedom for a personality that's as strong as that. Like, I also have my own strength of personality. But like, for example, with my, my younger one, who again is opposite of me in many ways, like, I had to learn to stop putting so many rules in his world because he hated them. Like, even if it was the most well intentioned rule I could come up with, like, and I explained why, like, it just didn't matter. He just hated it being kind of restricted in any way. And so I had to learn as a parent to adjust to that style and say, you know what, maybe these, some of these rules that I have aren't so important. What are our really important like character driven rules? And now we have a whole label that we call in our family, common sense rules. And it's like, listen, I'm not going to discipline you over common sense rule. Common sense will do that for us. But let me like, let me at least tell you what the wisdom is here about this and to give them that freedom to experiment and to try it out their way and to do things by themselves. It's a little hard for my perfectionist spirit to embrace that. So I actually I did, I wrote about how embracing the rebel and accepting the rebel, maybe even inside of ourselves. Because it's just, it wasn't just about like dealing with the rebel and like how do I deal with you and what do I do about you crazy portion over there that I can't handle. It was actually about like recognizing that this is a valuable part of who they are and they need to be supported well, and so the tie of the two of us, I think, has just been crucial to all of that.
- [30:53]
Host
One of the things we've talked about too, is just that, you know, there's a struggle in having such opposite personalities for Tracy and I. But for the boys, kids will naturally default, especially at a young age, to viewing their parents as good. Right. The parents are a source of just inherent validation for the child. And with our extremities and difference in the way that we think and the way that we operate, the. The differences are more pronounced. Right. They're more obvious, I should say. And so the kids can look at that and they see themselves in the parent and they're not thinking, oh, I'm bad. Right. If you have a little bit of a challenger mindset child and you have a rule enforcing, following engineer mindset, you know, parent, then that child basically constantly is being told, I'm bad, I'm bad, I'm bad, I'm bad.
- [31:49]
Tracy Linder
Even if you're not saying it right.
- [31:50]
Host
Right. That's just, that's just how they, they react to that. But our extreme differences, I think, tend to show that child, okay, I'm not bad. I may be in trouble, but I'm like dad or I'm like mom. Right. I have big emotions. Right. Whatever it is. And that's a good thing to validate that inherent nature of that child while still trying to guide them. Right, Right. And I wonder if parents who are maybe a little bit more similar don't quite have that same experience because it's just not as much difference. And they go, oh, I've got this rebel child. And none of us are like that. It's like, well, that's not bad. Inherent. Right. Like, you have to guide it. That's not bad. Like, there's good purpose.
- [32:33]
Tracy Linder
Yeah. That's kind of the silver lining of the entire thing. I, I like to call it permission. Like the kids have permission to be how they are. And there's no black sheep in our family. You know what I mean? Like, we're, we're. Whatever your personality strengths are and your weaknesses are and your character. Like, we're just here to be guide rails for whatever that is. Like, there is no bad personality. And I'm, I'm not in the Christian world. I'm not doing better just because I'm a perfectionist rule follower. Like, we all need, we all need redemption. And so, like, there is no better or worse. There is just what guide rails do you need for who you are? And I think we give them full Permission to see that and embrace that. Like, oh, we don't have one set rule on how we handle the speed limit. Dad handles it this way, mom handles it this way. You get to decide. You have freedom to define your own world when you are old enough.
- [33:26]
Cameron Linder
It seems like the world, the culture right now, has taken a lot of traits that are kind of stereotypically male. Competition, aggression, and those sorts of things and have labeled all of it, put it all under, you know, it's all toxic. And you see, with the balance of mom and dad, I would say we tend to see, we talk about this at them before us. You know, men tend to be more competitive, women tend to be more cooperative. And you can see how you need both of those things. It's not to say when your son's racing who gets to the car first that you might see with two women, it's always about, you need to let your brother have the front seat. You need to share. It needs to be perfectly equitable.
- [34:08]
Tracy Linder
Yeah.
- [34:09]
Cameron Linder
Or two men might be like, it's always competition. It's always trying to beat the other one. You see, when there's complementarity, there are times when competition is awesome and dad needs to push. It's not about sharing and it all being perfectly equal. It's about the person who worked harder or, or whatever. But there are times when they need to learn. I have to submit my desires to serve someone else and, and lift them higher and cooperate and get together and do a group project. The problem is when our culture throws one completely under the bus and says that aspect, femininity or masculinity doesn't matter to kids. And I'm just curious if you have seen in yourselves more of those stereotypical ways that you've parented your kids. Or maybe there's ways you're saying, hey, I know that's kind of the stereotype, but actually we're sort of opposite in that way. I wouldn't necessarily think that men are always more disciplinary. So that doesn't necessarily strike me as a crazy gender thing. That's more. Just seems like your personalities. But are there other ways you think you've kind of aligned with those gender stereotypes or completely invert them with your kids?
- [35:14]
Tracy Linder
Well, I, I'd love to start with that because I think there's a primer that needs to happen before we discuss that, which is basically like in a relationship, if you're showing dishonor to the other partner's approach, you are not helping your children at all. And, and, and I say that as somebody who has had to learn to watch a process that is like literally sometimes like the nails on the chalkboard kind of feel for me it's really hard. Um, but, but it's super important that they, our children see us honoring each other and their approaches. We all have our weaknesses, but when a person is, you know, trying to parent it, if, if a mother in a, in a, in a mother father household is degrading what the man is trying to bring to the family in discipline or whatever, whether you're opposite or similar, if usually it's, if they're opposite, if that person is being degraded in front of the children, they're seeing and understanding a totally different message than what you're trying to send.
- [36:14]
Host
Let me, can I chime in on that real quick? I think the other piece of that that's critically important is that ultimately when you criticize your spouse, particularly in front of the kids, you are inherently criticizing the child as well because again, that child reflects you and they know exactly where they're like mom or like dad. And so if you're looking at your spouse and you're saying, oh you're this and that and that's horrible and whatever, like you're basically saying that to the child too. You don't mean to, but that's ultimately what you're saying.
- [36:40]
Tracy Linder
Yeah. So a lot of women, I, so I was, I joined the military myself when I was earlier on in my time and so I was surrounded by a lot of strong willed women and, and I'm still friends with a lot of those women today. So I have seen so much in our examples around us of women who just tear apart the, their husband's approach to the family and it's not good enough because they just want to be in charge. And that's a hard thing to let go of. But I really think we should be in the habit of honoring each parent's role because it is so important that the child gets both. So whatever your part in it is just trying not to demean the other person in what they're doing. You know, like sometimes there's a difference in what type of discipline. Well, you don't dismiss it and we have that problem on the other side. So Cameron is that, you know, rebel spirit. He doesn't want to be told what to do. So like I would have just a guideline rule that I didn't want us snacking before dinner and then he'd go to the pantry and just grab some cheez. Its because it's always cheez Its, and, and, and the boys would see it and they go, well, why can't we? And so we have this thing and it was like, you need to back me up in what I'm trying to enforce with the children. Like, I'm not trying to restrict you, but at the same time, like, I need backup for what I'm trying to do with them because it diminishes what I'm trying to accomplish with them if you just ignore the rules. Like, let's get more unified together in the rules. And so for me, it's had to be that recognition of like, okay, he is more relaxed. Can we do this a different way? Can we do this with more freedom and less rules? You know what I mean? Like, how bad are the consequences if they really do try this? You know, and, and trying to assess that. So I wanted to just start with that because I think it's super important. And in the marriage when you're trying to make it work, we can so quickly get into that where we're just tearing apart the other person's like approach. Especially if they're having a struggle in their life, like alcoholism or something like that you want to use. You start to just see those problems as like, they're only defined by their problems. And you don't let their strengths come through in parenting in the way that maybe we would want to if we were all looking at it from the outside a little bit more clearly.
- [38:49]
Host
Yeah. I mean, if you, if you're constantly telling somebody how awful they are, they start to believe that that's exactly what you think of them. Right. And it's easy to shut down and disconnect at that point. That's not ultimately helpful, healthy or. I mean, we know where it leads.
- [39:03]
Tracy Linder
Right.
- [39:03]
Host
I think some of the ways in which we're, I mean, again, we're both strong willed personalities, both extroverts, which is.
- [39:10]
Tracy Linder
Different than normal pairings.
- [39:12]
Host
We both talk a lot, but, you know, I'm talking about the aggression or competition. It's, it's interesting because we, we overlap and yet are opposite and depending on the sphere, you know, I'm much more conflict leaning into or engaging for those who are on the outside. So outside my teams, outside my friendship circles, et cetera, internally, I'm, I'm very, very cooperative and less competitive. I'm very, very pragmatic when it comes to competition, where I think Tracy would say she's just like inherently and inherently competitive.
- [39:46]
Cameron Linder
Yeah.
- [39:48]
Host
And so there's some differences on, on some of those fronts. You know, internally I want to avoid conflict. Tracy, external or. And internally, Tracy wants to work out the conflict, which. That's a healthy dynamic, right? Like, that's you. You want to bring conflict out in the open, so resolve and not let it fester. And then externally, Tracy is very kind of. I don't want to say afraid, but. But much more hesitant to. To get into conflict with somebody where I'm like, come on, let's fight, you know, let's argue, you know, like, this kind of stuff.
- [40:15]
Tracy Linder
I think Katie has a great labeling of those when she talks about the truth teller versus the grace giver with other people. Especially, like, I am a huge grace giver. I don't want to have those uncomfortable conversations. And Cameron, like, searches them out. We joke that we live in Washington because he needed a fight. Like, he just. He doesn't like to be in places where it's comfortable and people are just thinking that everything's fine. He likes to be on the front lines in that way externally, whereas I'm like, why did you just bring me here to have an argument with this person that's, like, so intense to me. But even on the other differences, I think, you know, maybe we're misfits in a lot of typical definitions, but still with the importance of. We really think both are important because naturally we do tend to attract opposites at some level. And so I think you get that no matter what your pairing is, if you're just kind of looking for those good fits with each other. But I'm the more competitive one. Like, trouble turning it off competitive. I would say he's competitive when he's going out to get business and conquer the world in the business realm. You know, I. I'm the very. I'm the more strict one. Like, I'm the one that would have more of a propensity to be the strict military parent, where there's a bunch of rules and you better follow it. And it's about respect and a lot of that stuff. I think Cameron's best defined kind of in the laissez faire parenting style, which is actually very much like his parents. And so he just is relaxed about everything. Like, if you ask him to watch the kids, he's like, well, I am watching them as they do a bunch of stuff. You know, he should have been more.
- [41:45]
Host
Spec, you know, and.
- [41:47]
Tracy Linder
And so, like, I have to decide what level I'm comfortable with with all of that, you know, so in that way, we don't. We don't fit quite in the. The stereotypes. But one way that we choose to fit, which I think a lot of it is, your choice about how you choose to fit is that we choose the. The. The headship of a man in our household. And, you know, I choose to submit and yield to the family's choices. And, you know, I was in the military, I had an opportunity to do a lot of fun things and projects and work in kind of a management of technical projects when I was doing that. And I'm very happy in the world that I live now to be supporting. Like, what. Where I take that expertise that I've developed in the military is to support his business in ways that he needs it and to support the raising of our family. And we homeschool our children. So we. We both are committed to crafting that world and what we want to see as we bring them up, and so we choose that. And I think whatever your differences are, wherever you fit in the grand scheme, I definitely tend to fit in the more masculine, defined things. I actually think we should shed those a lot more than we do. There is a very much a natural wiring that. That boys especially have.
- [43:03]
Cameron Linder
We.
- [43:03]
Tracy Linder
We love. I love a book that we have read that talks about just kind of helping boys develop across their full. Their. Their full, like, development until about 25 and how to support them well in that. And. But at the same time, I was a girl who wanted to go play sports with the boys, and I was the girl and I. And I thought I had to join the military. I didn't have to, but, you know, I joined the military and I. What was hard for me to realize in all of that is that there are women that are like me, and I don't have to go. Because if you try to make your friend circle a bunch of guys, you will inherently have complications with relationships. And that is exactly what happened for me. And it got very muddy and confusing. And it took me a while to realize there are other women that are like me and my boys can like pink and it doesn't matter. Like, these are like, we need to shed the things that don't really matter and start saying, like, you're allowed to be wired how you're wired. You know, like, boys do need freedom to roam, and sometimes girls do, too. And we're just going to pair you with people that you can understand each other and grow together. Because I think so much of the time we think we have to fit into this box, but whatever box you're in, you can shed all that and just say, I'm going to work with my family to help bring out the differences and to help mold them. And usually if you're pairing with somebody, you're going to find somebody that's opposite of you in good ways for your family.
- [44:22]
Host
Let's be honest though, if a boy is going to wear pink, it's a tie, it's a shirt, and very occasionally a pink suit jacket.
- [44:29]
Tracy Linder
You have a pink shirt. And our son definitely had this really cool set of sneakers that had thing for a time.
- [44:36]
Cameron Linder
And you know what?
- [44:36]
Tracy Linder
It went away. And like, I've never seen them play with baby dolls, but they like stuffed animals so well.
- [44:41]
Cameron Linder
And it's funny, my brother would play with the baby doll and was even holding it to his chest, but only because he was watching my mom feed me or my younger sister. So it's a play acting thing and it's really how we frame it, right? Like, oh, are you being, are you pretending to be the daddy? Or good dads are holding and throwing their kids around and cuddling their babies too. Right? So I like what you're saying about it doesn't matter if you're a woman that likes. You know, I read this book called Atypical Woman and I, I think I mentioned this on a podcast recently too where someone asked, how am I, how do I be a good mechanic as a woman? Like, that was her job. And the lady, the author was like, you just are like, the way that a mechanic is a woman is the way you are because you're a woman who's a mechanic. That's how women do it. You know, it really is not about. Yeah, I like what you're saying. Shed the, the stereotypes that don't matter. Again, it's that underlying worldview. It's understanding God made me a woman or a man. This is how I'm gonna live my gifting out. And I like thinking too. I have stay at home, mom, homemaker friends. I like to put them in my phone as COO of, you know, last name Industries. Because it's like if dad's CEO mom is COO a lot of the times that's kind of how it works out. And it's not like that job doesn't matter when you're, you know, primarily raising human beings.
- [46:02]
Host
You know, there's so much superficiality to our stereotypes. There are inherent differences, right? Like there are rock solid inherent differences between the ways men and women think, process information, react, et cetera. And some of that is on a spectrum of degrees. And I would say, I mean, we very much, I would say, represent some of those Rock solid differences, you know, male and female. But a lot of it that we add on top of that ends up being superficial, you know, Like, I do most of the impromptu cooking, which for our crazy lives is just about the only way that we cook is impromptu, you know, And I enjoy that. Like, to me, that's a. That's a. It's a labor that is different from the work that I do in my business that I enjoy. And so I do those, you know, And Tracy is the, you know, grand queen of organization and declutter, and I drive her insane with my total nonchalance about clutter. Right. There are some things that are. That are manifest themselves in stereotypical ways, but ultimately, to kind of sum up this thought process, maybe it is a partnership. And me coming from the business realm, I'm like, well, of course it's a partnership. The best businesses are like the best marriages, you know, and. And somebody hears and they're like, oh, not this speech again, you know, but, like, it really is because you have complementary values, you have complementary skill sets, you have complementary ways of thinking. And yes, two heads are better than one. And the ability to flesh out those perspectives is what makes a marriage and a business work. But you have to build those muscles, right? Like, you have to build those skill sets. And that's where the challenge is. That's where the difficulty is. But it's, again, it will force you to become a better person.
- [47:48]
Tracy Linder
Well, like, we lovingly call each other rock and hard place because, like, we weren't moving without each other. Like, that was just very clearly, like I said, we had defined ourselves and we liked it, you know, when we got together, then we had to realize, like, what is got to yield. And you have to keep those complimentary things. Complimentary, because to the earlier point, if you're tearing down the differences in your spouse, then not only is it really not helpful to your marriage, but also if your children are seeing that they're feeling torn down at some level as well.
- [48:16]
Host
Yeah. What I can say with confidence in our marriage dynamic, again, is we would not call our marriage dynamic easy at all. But what I would say is that absolutely, if I'm just thinking from my selfish perspective, I would absolutely not be in the place that I wanted to be today without her, her perspective, her help and everything else. I mean, just. It would not have been possible. Absolutely not possible. And I think she would say the same. I'll let her say the same thing, maybe. But, like, I think she would say the same thing because again, we've Both grown tremendously. And the things that we've done as a family, accomplished. If you're accomplishment driven, like the things that we've accomplished as a family, absolutely not possible without the other person in the picture. I don't just mean like by default. I mean because of the different skill sets and perspectives and strengths and weaknesses even that we each have. That's a great reason to get married, by the way.
- [49:16]
Cameron Linder
Yeah. That's awesome. Well, thank you so much for this conversation. Thank you. I mean, it's sort of a metaphysical thank you. But, you know, by being married, by having a marriage that other people, you know, in your church, you're mentoring young women, young men, you're raising children, you are giving an example for the world. Not just in this practical of like, we need more kids so we can reproduce, like save civilization. So good job. You're saving civilization.
- [49:41]
Tracy Linder
But.
- [49:42]
Cameron Linder
But good marriages really are what we need. Because, you know, my parents, people know, my parents have had a difficult. Had a difficult marriage. But I've seen many, many amazing marriages, Great husbands, great fathers. And I've seen the way it should be not perfect, but I've seen moms and dads and interaction in marriage and heard hard things and seen how people work through it, and that gives me hope for the future and for the future of marriage and those sorts of things. So we just appreciate you being married, but also. Yeah. Being willing to come on and share with us.
- [50:16]
Tracy Linder
Well, I have to say I'm really thankful because when we're talking about, you know, Mother's Day, this, to me, this is one of the best gifts that I've ever had. I got to hear my husband say how wonderful I am to our marriage.
- [50:28]
Cameron Linder
Right.
- [50:28]
Tracy Linder
And so this is like a very nice, different way to celebrate Mother's Day. For me, that means a lot. And yeah. And like you said, it's not perfect. And we, we definitely have areas that we need to work on and that we're stretched. But I think we're both really grateful that, that the journey has like, that we came together and that we've been able to become better and grow and just do fun things.
- [50:52]
Cameron Linder
Awesome. Well, thank you guys so much for your time and everyone. I hope you enjoyed listening and thanks for joining the them before us movement.
- [51:01]
Host
Thank you.