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Them Before Us Podcast
Them Before Us #088 | A Powerful Personal Story of Hope in Midst of Infertility
00:27:37
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Foreign.
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Welcome back to the Them Before Us podcast or welcome to the Them For Us podcast for the very first time, maybe. I'm your host, Jen Friesen. I'm the training director with Them Before Us. I help with our communications, social media, the podcast, etc, and today we have a great conversation with a new friend who's on the other side of the world. Her name is Miriam and she's from the Netherlands. And she reached out to us because we asked for people who wanted to share their IVF or infertility struggle stories. And so Miriam would love to share her story to encourage people. And I'm really excited for this conversation. So, Miriam, thank you so much for joining us all the way from the Netherlands.
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Yes, thank you so much for inviting me for your podcast. So I'm very thankful. Yeah. To have this conversation. All right.
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So I think we put an ask out on our social media partially because we get a lot of pushback at Them Before Us when we talk about the ethical issues with IVF or with donating eggs, donating sperm. And we say these things violate the rights of children. And a lot of people push back and say, you're not allowed to say that because you've never struggled with infertility or you don't know what it's like to have these things. And so I reached out and tried just kind of broadly and said, hey, if you've struggled or had these experiences, will you share with us? Because we need to have more of these stories so people understand struggling, having infertility, losing a child, it's still. There's still people who can experience all that, and they've still determined to do what's right. And so Miriam is. Is an example of that. So, Miriam, I'd love it if you just started wherever you'd like to start with your story and just share with us a little bit, and then we can ask questions and. And go along that way.
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Yes. Thank you. Well, actually, it started like, when I was, I think, 33, I was single, and in Holland, there was a documentary from a woman, a journalist, and she wants to have a baby. But there wasn't a man, a boyfriend or a husband. And it was in 2010, I think. And then she made a documentary about freezing her eggs. And then a friend of mine saw the documentary and she said to me, miriam, is it something for you to freeze your ex because you want to get married, you want to have children? And I really felt in my heart like, no, I don't want to control this thing by myself. And I Even didn't thought about IVF or nothing. I just was like a young woman waiting for Mr. Wright, praying for Mr. Wright, but believing God that he would bless me just with the husband. And when the husband came, also the children would come. So when I look back, it was my first pro life choice for yes, I can say it like that. And then a couple years later, I saw that my neighbor, she was pregnant and I knew she didn't have a boyfriend or a husband. And we were just talking about that and she told me that she had a sperm donor and then became pregnant. So she said to me, is it something for you? And again, my answer was no. Like I really want to trust God for a husband and for children. So. And then I was like 37 when I met my husband. And a year later at 38, I we married. And it took a while before I became pregnant. And somebody was saying to me, like, well, did you thought about ivf? And I was like, no, never. You know, just, I really want to put my trust in God for getting pregnant. And somebody said to me, like, well, maybe if you don't do ivf, maybe you don't get a child. You know, sometimes it's very confronting, like, okay. But I was like in my heart that God would bless us with, with a child. And. And then I first miscarriage in 2018. And then I just started reading the Bible. What does God say about a woman who wants to be pregnant? Or like Sarah and Abra Abraham, they had a very big promise of God to, to give birth to a nation. And also their son Isaac really need to pray for his wife Rebecca to become pregnant. And I wrote the story of Hannah. You know, in the temple, she was crying and just praying to God for the longing for a child. And then the priest came and gave her her word. And a year later she got pregnant. So at the time I first lost our first child, our first baby, it was I think about eight weeks pregnancy. It really, I was really grieving about that. And then I was looking for God. Okay, God, what do you say? And then within three months I became, I was pregnant of our daughter Rachel. I say it in Dutch, you also can say Rachel, but I prefer Rachel to say because it's just, I say it here and it was a beautiful pregnancy, but it was also, how do you call it, A little bit tensed because there were abnormalities with the sonogram at 11 weeks. Also the 20 weeks she had a hole in her heart. Well, it's a whole story, but at that time I didn't want to do any test just to protect her. God put it in my heart just to protect the baby and to do only the sonogram and not a different test. Not a blood test or. Or something like that or a puncture of. How do you call it? You know, the fluids.
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Annie?
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I don't know.
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No, that's like a heart one. So a test of. Like the fluid to see if. If. Yes, things were abnormal.
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Yes. I didn't want to do that because of any risk. All the risk. But when our daughter was born, a week after that, it appeared that she had trisomy 13. Well, the doctor says she's incompatible with life. And she stayed with us for 10 weeks. So it was a very precious time we have. We had with her. And I was not so thankful for the little girl he gave to us during my pregnancy. I already felt like, okay, I just want to. There was so much. They just asked us again, again, do you want to do an abortion? No, of course not. This is our child. We pray for a child, and we believe that every child deserves life and a chance and protection. So I felt in my heart also during the short life she was with us, that I want to do something for the unborn children. And I wrote a book about my pregnancy about the time Rachel was with us. And I started a foundation, powerful woman, to inspire people to choose for their children and after. And to choose for life, you know, from conception, like the Bible says, you know, for God we are. Every life is precious. And what he says in his word, like in Jeremiah, before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. So our life even starts before conception because it was God's desire to create us. But also after Rachel died, there was a desire in my heart like, I never looked for foster care or adoption, but I was just searching for in what different ways we can take care of a child. And that's also when I started to look for ivf and when I was on the website of our insurance policy and it was a Christian insurance, and they said that they would. They didn't. They wouldn't pay for the normal IVF procedure because. Because embryos are new human beings and they wouldn't take responsibility for putting those in the freezer. And I never thought about that, but it shocked me. I was like, oh, really? And then I started to reach research, but just to read more about ivf, the doctor says, well, this is a good quality of embryo, and this is a one, so the bad one he will throw away or. And I was like, oh, no, never. Normally, you know, it's just. Every embryo is safe in your womb. It is hidden. And only God knows what the quality of the embryo is like. Just a while ago, I also heard a story of a woman, and she had a bad quality of embryo, but she really asked the doctor just put it back in my womb, and he did, and she got a healthy baby. So what does quality say? You know? So that was, for me, a point to say, this is not what we want. Just that a doctor can say good and bad qualities. And then in Holland, there's an option and the other currencies, I believe, also for the leftover embryos you can donate to the. For research, they need embryos to be more successful with the IVF procedures. For me, that was really a no go. I thought, okay, just for me to have. Because they want to have better IVF procedures. A baby without an embryo has to sacrifice for that. It was really, really a no go for me and my husband. Somebody said to me, well, but Miriam, if you do ivf, maybe you get a baby. Especially after Rajo died, my arms were so empty, my womb was so empty. I had such a desire to be a mom again. And it was always a dream of me to become a mom. I'm from a family of six children, but it was always. I always thought, well, we're gonna get married and then there are going to be children. But when I really got to know what IVF is, and it was like, okay, I don't believe it. You know, also when I read the Bible, like from Jeremiah, that God says, before I form you in the womb, I saw you, I knew you. Psalm 139, that God saw us saw or the beginning when we were unformed. And for God, it doesn't make a difference if you're formed in the womb or in a petri dish. You know, for him, every life is so precious to him, so just. And now through the years, like I was listening to a podcast in January, February, I thought. And I heard in Holland there are every year something about 70,000 embryos made for IVF. And only 5,000 children are born. So every year, 70,000 embryos. It was shocking to me. I thought, where are they? Are they in the freezer? Are they just thrown away? Are they put for research or.
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Miriam, thanks so much for sharing your story. As you're speaking, it makes me think too, the people around you that can help things push one way or the other. So you're getting. I'm 37 as well, so I'm single, don't have kids. And there can be people in your life that think, hey, you want these things, you need to go get it in these certain ways. And so they go and kind of nudge you toward why aren't you doing a sperm donation? Or why aren't you going and doing ivf? And it was really interesting that you, because you had a Christian insurance agency, they helped you think about it a little bit differently. That no, we're talking about human beings. And yes, we value the human beings that have been born from ivf. We're so thankful. But like you're saying, we're considering all the ones on ice or that die because they're graded, they're not high quality, donated to research. You know, there's so many ethical questions. So it's interesting that you had, you had some people maybe nudging you toward those negative practices. What's the, what's the culture in the Netherlands when it comes to marriage and family? We know gay marriage has been legal there, I think longer than almost any other country. So you know, in our view that redefinition of marriage is not good for marriage. We think that's not good the in states as well. But you know, what is the posture about people getting married and having children? Is it kind of like, hey, do your career come back later and then you can use these technologies? Is it a low value, high value? What is it like in the Netherlands?
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Well, I think it's like IVF is very common. I think more and more also on the Christians because they don't know what I believe. It's because they don't know what it really is. Like the doctor won't tell about freezing embryos or the freezer is a dangerous place for embryo. They can make it through the freezing process. I think more and more same sex couples also go for IVF or looking for a surrogate. I think it's more and more common for same sex couples. Single moms, maybe single dads.
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My take from the United States is that the year a lot of Europe is very post Christian, it's, it's a little harder to find that Christian community. So it was, it was inspiring for sure to hear you were using your faith as a reason both to encourage you that I don't need to go and do these practices that I think are, I don't think they're a good idea. I'm going to trust and wait for God. But then even as God provides for you and then, but then you lose the child, you still thought well, I'm not going to go to IVF because I believe that God has made humans, you know, intrinsically valuable. And this. These technologies would. Would hurt. But do you think you're saying you said a little bit that even Christians probably don't know that much about these topics? Why do you think you could kind of connect those dots even when a lot of people aren't talking about it?
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I don't know. I just really love God and the Bible. I just want to follow God's path. When I was single, was one time, I really thought and said to myself, you know, marriage in itself, it's not a goal. A baby in itself is not a goal. And we live in a time where a baby is a goal. But I said to myself, even before marriage, Jesus is my goal. And so a man is not a goal and a baby is not a goal. But so that was very important to me also in the whole process of infertility, because it's so difficult, especially when you had a baby. When we had Rachel in my arms and we had to take care of her. And just to say it again, a baby is not a goal, because with ivf, you can. If you want a baby, you. You go to ivf. And. And I know a lot of people say, yes, it's also a miracle and a blessing, but if you really want to trust God in the Bible, Sarah didn't have ivf. She only had God, and she had a promise of God, and Hannah did. Didn't have ivf. So for me, that's. I don't know why, but that's what happened in my heart. And I'm just. Maybe I also want to be righteous for God. Like, yes, of course through Christ, I'm righteous, but I want to do it in his way. And especially when I just saw that so many lives are lost, it wasn't an option. You know, when you go to the hospital, like, okay, when I was still 39, after a year, I still wasn't pregnant. And then you go to the doctor, and he said, oh, well, it's your age. You have to go to the hospital. And then the first thing they're saying, like, okay, IVF, it's the only option. Even when I was 42 and I went to the doctor and in the hospital and she was checking my womb and my eggs, and there were. There were still a lot of eggs. But they never said, like, oh, maybe it's a problem with your hormones. Or maybe they didn't search for anything. They only say IVF is the Only way. And I think there are so much more ways to increase your fertility or other ways to really do something about your fertility than ivf. And it's not a subject. People don't talk about it.
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Right.
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Yeah.
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We did an interview with Dr. Naomi Whitaker here in the States, and she is part of doing restorative reproductive medicine. And so she said, sometimes it'll be a simple surgery that will fix something or changing someone's diet or they have to lose a certain amount of weight. And I remember one of our colleagues, one of my co workers, he has shared this publicly as well. They were struggling with. They were told, you know, you can't have kids. You have bad eggs. And his wife just had to take baby aspirin or ibuprofen during, you know, ovulation and pregnancy. And that was able. That was able enough to be able to keep the baby there. And so they've had four pregnancies now. No problems.
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So. Wow.
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So there's just. There is a lack of curiosity to really help women get to what is underlying. And of course, we talk about this as well. You know, Western culture has definitely flipped the timeline on its head. We've said to young women, go work. Just go be a partner at the law firm and go do your career. And all that stuff can wait. You can freeze your eggs and you can wait on it. Right. And there's many women that want to get married, and they would. They would say yes if that opportunity was there. But there's a lot of women, I think, that could have the opportunity, but they push it to the side because they think I should focus on getting my career and children, and marriage can come later. And we really need to mentally flip that and think, if marriage and family is an option for you, we should prioritize those things when women are much younger. And yes, we wrote an article that said, basically, culture told me to put my fertility on the shelf, and then they offered to sell it back to me, you know, a decade later. So they're telling young women, yes, they're telling young women, freeze your eggs. Donate your eggs. Go. Go be a lawyer. Go work somewhere. Okay? Now, when you're ready to come get pregnant, come. Come get our sperm donor. Come get our egg donor. We'll do IVF for you, like you're saying. And then women get trapped in. There's many Christians who are kind of getting trapped with these ethical questions, but it's too late because they're already in it now, and they've created 10 human beings, and they're on ice.
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Yes, agree. I think in Holland it's the same like people don't. Women don't really, really realize the state of their fertility, you know, and putting career first or so that's also something I just saw a couple of months ago. Two women were talking about to inspire women about their fertility and. And have to take it serious. And I thought, oh, that's very good. Because we think, oh, no, if you're 35 or 38 and you know, it is possible because it happens. I believe in God and he's a God of miracles. And maybe it depends on how healthy you are. But on the other hand, it's also something biological that your fertility in your 20s is your highest chance to have a baby. And the older you get, you can think, oh, children are for later. But no, I think it's better take that seriously if you want to have children. Just not to wait and think I freeze my eggs. But take responsibility for. For your fertility. Yes.
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Yeah, I agree. So where are you and your husband now? I know you shared that and this was really inspiring. Well, I'll say her name the English way, so I don't butcher it in. In the Dutch way. But for your daughter Rachel, it's beautiful that her legacy, I mean, now a few more hundred people, you know, in the United States are hearing about her and hearing her story, which is beautiful. And so you said you've written a book to encourage people. You started an organization and do you and your husband now, but you don't have children. And did you ever consider adopting, fostering more or where are you at, sort of where you are in life right now?
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Well, my husband had already a beautiful daughter and she became mother also. So that is something beautiful in our family. But for ourselves, adoption in Holland is not that easy because adopting abroad is not possible anymore. You only can adopt a child in Holland. And because of. Of my age also and because of the loss of Rafael, foster care isn't something easy. So it both. We didn't choose for. We didn't choose for foster care or adoption. After, I think in 2022, I miscarried again. So that was very difficult because, yes, I really thought it would work out. You know, I really put my trust in God again and I may scared again. So that was. It's just difficult and painful. But now I'm more like. You can be a mother in different ways, like just for the children that are in my life right now, like nieces or nephews or children in church or. So motherhood can be Much can be different than foster care, adoption, or just through. Just on the natural, natural way to become a mother. Right.
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Yeah.
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So that's where we are right now. Yeah.
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Yeah. Thank you for sharing. I think it's important too that people hear that part of your story because sometimes the story will be that someone struggles with infertility or they lose a baby, but then, you know, something will happen and, oh, now I have five kids and you know, and so, oh, it got wrapped kind of up in that bow. Not that their life still isn't hard and their struggles, of course, but, you know, not every story ends up with, well, I was faithful and I chose not to do these difficult technologies. But then God still came and blessed me in the way I thought I was going to be blessed. Sometimes God is still with us and blesses us and it's not what we thought it would be, you know, and God's still walking with us through hard things. And so I agree. You know, I, I've thought about that a lot too. I don't know if I'll get married and have children. And there's a lot of people, so they're single. And the single mom by choice, I think you mentioned that, is kind of the women who's like, well, I don't know if I'm getting married, so I'm just going to try and take it into my own hands and instead to try and live faithfully whatever state we're in. Not that you can't long for, pray for, be proactive in a lot of ways, but at some level we just have to be faithful whatever stage we're in, and look around for the other people who we can help care for and encourage. And I've just felt in hearing many different stories of people, every person is struggling with something or waiting for something from God.
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Yes.
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It's not unique to, to me, I'm the only person God has is like withholding something good for me. You know, it's not like that. God is with. With us and encouraging us and so many of us are waiting for something and sometimes that is not met the way we think it will be here. So I. But I think that's really important to encourage because I think there's probably many women who are. Have maybe a similar story to you, and it's not all just wrapped up perfectly exactly how you want it at the end, but you're still on a journey.
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Yes, true. And that it was really a wrestling to me just to accept that it is the way it is and just what you say, you know, the happy ending. Oh, this happened. And I had a time when I thought, oh, okay, God, what about me? You know, we lost our daughter and. What about me? We lost two other children. But just to be. It's a whole process of grief, of letting go what you thought it would be. I never thought this. This is going to be my future. I always thought God is good and God is good, you know, he's always good. But my situation can be different than I thought. And. And it's just a process to let go. A process of grief, a process of new things that God will give. So. But in an other way than I had expected. Yes.
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Yeah.
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Yes.
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B
That's beautiful. Well, Miriam, thank you so much for your time and sharing. Your story. Is. Do you have a website or can people come and find your book? I guess it probably is in Dutch.
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Yes. Too bad it's in Dutch. I have. Too bad. This is. Yeah, this is our girl. Her name is. Her name is Rachel. Anna Rachel. And I've got a website. It's WW Dot. Powerful Strapia. Powerful, Powerful woman. It says. And yes. So thank you so much for this conversation.
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B
You're welcome. I'm so glad you reached out and thank you for being willing to share your story and everyone listening. I hope you go check out Miriam's book and that you're encouraged. You can always email us and share your thoughts. And if you're in the Netherlands and you want to get connected, we have some folks who are doing pro family, pro life, kind of them before us work in the Netherlands. So if you ever want. If people listening to this want to get connected, you should reach out to us. So thanks so much Miriam and everyone. Hope you enjoy this conversation and we will catch you next time.