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Them Before Us Podcast
Them Before Us #091 | Conceived by IVF & Sharing Pro-Life Views on Campus
00:22:06
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- [00:09]
A
Maddie, thanks so much for joining the Them for Us podcast and being willing to share your story with us.
- [00:14]
B
Yeah, thanks for having me.
- [00:16]
A
Okay, well, let's start at maybe just give us some origin information, who your parents are, the siblings you have, maybe kind of where you grew up. Did you grow up in a faith background? And then tell us how you learned that you were conceived via ibs.
- [00:33]
B
Yes. So I actually grew up in a Christian household. I just have one older brother, and I still go to the church that I was born at. So that's been a really big blessing for me and my family. My parents are great. Unlike most Christians. I feel like we actually went to public school, so had that kind of experience. And I was saved at a very young age. I think I was probably around 9 or 10 years old when my parents sat my brother and I down and they just told us, you know, you were created through this thing called ivf. And honestly, I thought it was really cool. I think I went back to school the next week and told people like, I was created in a lab. I was created in the petri dish. Like it was my fun fact. It was my icebreaker kind of thing. And I never really wrestled with the ethical, you know, different, like, views on IVF until I got involved in the pro life movement probably around my freshman year of college, so.
- [01:39]
A
And how old are you now? Just for people listening, I'm 22.
- [01:43]
B
I just graduated from UGA.
- [01:45]
A
Oh, nice. Congratulations. All right, so when your parents tell you, did your parents think that there were ethical things that were involved with it that they were maybe struggling with, even though you didn't know that as probably a 9 or 10 year old, did your parents have some of those qualms?
- [02:02]
B
Honestly, I think my parents and I went through the same discovery of the ethical horrors of IVF around the same time. So it wasn't really until a couple of years ago. They shared with me, though, that when they were preparing to do IVF, it was probably 25 years ago, because my brother is two years older than me, they sought counsel from their pastor. They found a doctor who claimed to be doing everything the most ethical way possible. And looking back, I think both my parents and I, we agree that they really did not have informed consent on the entire process of ivf. The doctor told them with confidence, this is an ethical way of doing ivf. We're going to take the least amount of embryos possible and we're going to implant all of them. And so by this, they. They thought it was completely ethical. And again, we both kind of discovered lives were still, you know, lives still died in that process just a couple of years ago. And so I think we went through the discovery of that together. And for me, I know that I really didn't want to confront this truth. When I first heard about, you know, IVF not being consistent with pro life values, I didn't really want to look into it because I didn't know what that meant for my life and what that meant for my parents. I kind of just ignored it. And I did very minimal research. I did more so biased research. Like I was trying to look up ethical ways of ivf. I was filtering it through what I thought it needed to be so that I could be okay with it.
- [03:56]
A
What brought your parents to that decision or in the direction of ivf?
- [04:01]
B
So I believe my parents were around the age of, like, their late 20s when they first got married. And my mom was. Had been on birth control for several years and probably a decade at that point. And when she was like, you know, I want to have kids, and it was very difficult for her to get her hormones in balance, and she was never informed of the hormonal damage that birth control can do to you. And I even asked her if she would go back and, you know, never take birth control ever again. And she was like, I wish I hadn't. I. I wouldn't have done that if I had known the consequences. And so when they were doing some tests on my mom to see why they were having some infertility issues, there was some issue with a procedure that messed up one of her tubes, and so that caused further complication with trying to get pregnant. And so really it was the cause of the hormonal birth control. And so that's why they were having infertility issues. And they were actually. My parents were actually considering adoption because at the time, they could not afford ivf. But then my. My grandfather was able to financially support their decision to do ivf. And again, they did seek counsel, and they thought they were going about it the right way. And so I. I don't fault my parents for going through ivf. I don't think that they were in sin doing it, because I don't think that they had the full knowledge of, you know, what goes on in ivf. And that's, to me, why I think it's important to share the truth about ivf. It's not necessarily to condemn people or not be sympathetic towards people who have infertility problems. It's just to inform you.
- [06:02]
A
So, yeah, that's good. We talk about that quite a bit that so many folks going into IVF even now, because you were saying your parents were doing it 20 something years ago, but even now, a lot of folks go into any kind of doctor because they can't get pregnant, and a lot of doctors direct them immediately to ivf. And like you said, maybe all the details are not spelled out that we're going to make 10 embryos and then you're going, we're going to implant three at a time because we're hoping one of them works that sort of a lot of that or, you know, your babies are going to be on ice for a decade or something. A lot of that is not, I'm sure it's in the fine print that they sign, but it's not sort of laid out that, hey, you're going to have these ethical choices you have to make down the road. And so it's totally understandable that your parents did not have that. What do you know about how many, you know, eggs were fertilized or, you know, how many siblings that you had at one point?
- [07:02]
B
I don't recall the exact number, but I have talked to my mom about this and I know that all the eggs that they had fertilized were implanted and used. And my mom is grateful that she never did freeze any of her embryos because she's just like, I don't know what I would. How I would even feel about that now. Yeah. And I know I have it. I do have a handful of other siblings that did not make it. I think there was another one implanted with me and there was another one that was implanted with my brother. So I maybe four implanted total. And there's just two of us now. And my mom does. She's vocalizes to me. She does mourn her other babies, and she realizes that even the ones that weren't implanted, those were her babies. And that's something that she really wishes she had been informed about when she started the process.
- [08:03]
A
Yeah. Well, I'm sure for those, you know, who were conceived by IVF and had a live birth, there can be maybe a lot of complex feelings and questions around why did I survive? Or. And my siblings didn't. Or, you know, thankfully, like you said, you, you don't have to struggle with the feeling of, I've got siblings still on ice. Why did my parents choose me? Or how did I get, you know, I'm lucky and I got chosen. Whereas what happened was more God's sovereignty, of course, you know, that one baby lived in, one baby didn't live. That's not your fault. There's nothing, you know, that's not your parents fault, but.
- [08:42]
B
Right.
- [08:42]
A
You know, I'm sure there's a lot of complex questions there. What I'm really thankful for is that it sounds like you've been able to. Your. You and your parents got educated and learned about these things and could navigate it together. Because we've heard from other folks that feel like I can't really talk to my parents about it because we don't necessarily align or it is really painful. And so I can't really bring it up because I have these complex feelings and so do they and we can't really talk about it. So what is it like sort of interacting with your parents? Are there any places that I guess you don't have to tell me if you're like, actually I can't really talk about this with my parents because this is. But, but you know, I mean, has that been growing pains? Have you guys had to learn how to navigate those conversations? Because it can be difficult on both of those ends.
- [09:25]
B
Yeah. I think when I first was struggling with even thinking about the fact that IVF could be wrong and that we shouldn't do it, I was scared in a way to bring it up to my parents because I didn't want to seem insensitive because like I said earlier, infertility is just, I can't imagine what that's like. And Lord willing, I hopefully won't go through that. But I want to be sympathetic and loving to my parents when I bring it up. And so I just spent a lot of time praying about how I should bring it up. And they were very open to having conversations about it with me. But again, it was a very gradual conversation and we were able to grow with it together. And so we did kind of start off with, there are some ethical ways and there's not ethical ways. And we did it the most ethical way possible that we thought we could go about it. And I was like, okay, that was satisfactory to a point. And then as I got deeper into pro life advocacy, I continued to hear this narrative that IVF is incompatible with being pro life. And I was just like, I was like, I've got to move past my own insecurities about this whole thing and I've got to do the research and I need to figure out what the truth is. And at that point, when I realized that IVF inherently destroys life, in the process of manufacturing life, I brought that truth to my Parents and I knew it was going to be a hard truth, but they're not afraid to be confronted with the truth. We know that the Lord is sovereign over everything. And thankfully we all share that same foundation of the Lord's sovereignty over everything and how truth must be our foundation. And I think that really helped. It was, like I said, a gradual conversation. And I was the one to actually inform my parents that life is inherently destroyed, that IVF has a higher death toll than abortion, like the industry itself has a higher death toll than abortion does. I think they were able to. They listened, they, they prayed about it. And we're, you know, graciously. The Lord's gracious. We're all on the same page now. And they know I wasn't coming at them, condemning them, calling, saying that they're in sin for what they did, because. Cause that's certainly not my perspective or my intent to do that. But that's. I would say it was a, a gradual, a build up to kind of the point that we're at now.
- [12:10]
A
Were you doing pro life work on your college campus?
- [12:13]
B
So it started out I was making tiktoks pro life tiktoks. And those were getting a little bit of attention. Not anything crazy, but a little bit. And then I joined Students for Life on campus. And then I began interning with Georgia right to Life, which is where I'm able to work full time now. And I do communications for them. And so that's kind of how that all started through social media.
- [12:40]
A
That's awesome. Did you. Were you one of the people that has those like, like a table on campus and you're engaging with students about pro life things? How did some of that go? What are the techniques or the conversation kind of talking points that you would use?
- [12:55]
B
Yes. So I have now had the delightful experience of tabling at the University of Georgia a handful of times. And some people would come up and they're willing and open to have a conversation and they want to hear why I'm pro life. But a lot of the times, you know, you get those very hostile students that will come up to you and they're very passionate about the fact that you should be able to kill your baby because that is your choice, that's your body. And so I really think I've heard every argument under the sun. And so I really just, I try to bring everyone back to just logic. And if we are not human from the very beginning, what are we? And where is our beginning, if not at fertilization? So at just I'M kind of posing questions and trying to have them answer and them think through and reason with me. And a lot of the times it gets them thinking. Sometimes they leave and come back. Sometimes they tell me they that, you know what, you're right. But I'm, I still am for abortion because you know, you're not going to change my mind with whatever facts you want to give me. So I really just try to bring it back every time to logic and if the opportunity presents itself. I also like to share the gospel with whoever comes up. But I've had good experiences.
- [14:24]
A
That's great. I mean, and it's cool that you have a personal experience that is tying into some of this conversation because I think that's really important. We haven't heard from a lot of folks who've been conceived by ivf. It really feels like IVF in particular has really popped up culturally, whereas pro life movement has been very active for a long time. Long time. That's really neat that you were having those conversations. Oh, and so good to think through. We never know if the way that we're asking questions in our presentation in a conversation, if we're staying good natured, calm, curious about the other person we're not attacking. You never know. Like this book. Greg Kokol wrote a book called Tactics and he talks about leaving a pebble in someone's shoe where if you ask that question where they can be as hostile as they want, but when they walk away they can't stop thinking about what you asked. Like, is it right, a human. I mean, I just had a conversation with Stephanie Gray Connors. I don't know if you've ever heard of her, but she's a pro life speaker and such and she talks about, well, it has to be a human because a human father and a human mother and if they produce offspring, what species would it be? And she's like said that to college students.
- [15:36]
B
Exactly.
- [15:37]
A
Then they're like, yes, yeah, it's got to be a human. So then you talk about personhood. Right. So but you work your way along with people. So that's a really great encouragement. So what are you up to now? So you do communications for Georgia Right to Life, you said. And what's, what's been your experience with kind of a bigger, like a state level pro life organization?
- [15:56]
B
I've really loved working for Georgia Right to Life. I started full time about 2 months ago now, but I had been interning with them for a full year and I've been able to do research, write some Articles. And now, of course, I'm sending out communications, posting on social media, and. And we're here promoting a personhood amendment in the Georgia constitution so that we can abolish abortion because we have what we call a heartbeat law, and it states that you can't get an abortion past six weeks or when there's a heartbeat detected. But the very fact is that over 30,000 abortions happened in 2023 with this law enacted. And people hear this law, and they're like, oh, abortion is outlawed in Georgia when that is just not the case. There are loopholes. There are exceptions, the law. And so that's what we're working towards. We're trying to advance personhood. We do trainings at churches. We go on college campuses. So I'll still be able to have those conversations with students and bring in my perspective as somebody who is conceived in ivf. And it's really hard for a lot of people to wrap their head around that. I can say, on one hand, yes, I was conceived in ivf, but on the other hand, I am completely against it, and it's very hard for somebody to. To reconcile those two things.
- [17:25]
A
So, yeah, if someone asks you, well, wait, you know, aren't you. You're. Aren't you happy you're alive? What. What are your ethical issues with ivf? What's. What are kind of your quick things that you lay out to someone who's just asking you for the first time?
- [17:38]
B
Yeah. So I just begin by saying that in the process of manufacturing life, IVF inherently destroys life. So these doctors are fertilizing multiple eggs because they know that some of them are not going to make it to a stage that can be, you know, where the embryo can be implanted. So they're creating life knowing that some of it's going to die. If we know, we think logically, life begins at fertilization. My life began right when that egg was fertilized. When I became that embryo, that's when my life began, along with my other siblings. But I was not given any human rights. I was not given human dignity. I was basically. They just sat there and watched me. And if it weren't for the sovereignty and grace of God, I wouldn't be here. It wasn't by luck that I made it. It wasn't because of the doctors that I made it here. It's because of God. And without his hand on my life, I would have just been another statistic. They would have looked at my parents and said, well, that's just what happens. That's just the process. That's just how it goes. And it's just not okay to treat human beings, creatures made in the image of God as a commodity. And so that's kind of how I would start off a conversation. A lot of the times most people are turned away when you bring God into things and they think that it's a religious thing. But the science doesn't lie. The numbers don't lie. It's a very low percentage of life that survives when IVF is used.
- [19:28]
A
Not that you need to or want to share specifically for your brother's perspective, but how was his journey with learning his origin and just processing that? Has it been similar? Is he also passionately involved in pro life?
- [19:43]
B
I would say he is pro life, but he's not necessarily been involved in any kind of politics, any kind of advocacy necessarily. I don't really think that it's ever something he's necessarily dwelt on. I don't think that it's that he struggled with it. He really may not have, you know, looked into it too deeply. I've had a few conversations with him about it, but I don't think it's anything that's ever necessarily just affected his thought process.
- [20:20]
A
So it is interesting. I mean, just. And anyone has the right to sort of process it the way they need to and want to. Right. Like, it's not like there's a right way or a wrong way. And you know, I'm sure even just the male female dynamic, there can be some different things there. Well, what. Where can people find you? Do you publicly do other things or have a blog or anything? Or you can give us. Yeah. Georgia Right to Life's information. We'd love to just post it so people, especially in Georgia, can come look you guys up and support you.
- [20:46]
B
Yeah. If you want to look up Georgia right to life, it's WWE. Www.grtl.org I'm. If you want to find me on Tick Tock, I just post mainly pro life videos and some mixed within conservative things, but it's just that conservative girl, so that's awesome.
- [21:07]
A
The 4S is also on TikTok and I would say we get overwhelmingly disagreement. And I'm just like here for it because I'm. I just think of it as engagement. I. I mean, we just. I don't pay a ton of attention to TikTok in terms of like going around to other stuff, but we've gotten flagged on like three different. Two or three different posts where they're like, it got taken down for violating community standards. So it's sort of the one that likes us the least. But we're definitely on there, too. So I'm gonna go find you and add you on our thing.
- [21:38]
B
Yes.
- [21:38]
A
Well, Maddie, thanks so much for being willing to share your story and the work you're doing. We're really thankful for your life and. Yeah. That God's using your voice and your story to encourage other people. And that's a big thing we talk about, is we to encourage people before they go into the industry to think about all these ethical issues. And so your story and your work is really helping people in that way.
- [21:59]
B
Thank you so much.