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Them Before Us Podcast
Them Before Us #091 | “Truth Rising: Our Civilizational Moment” | John Stonestreet
00:33:59
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- [00:09]
A
Hey, everyone. Welcome to the Them Before Us podcast. I'm Jen, our TBU training director. I do a little bit of communications. We have a substack now, so go check that out if you haven't seen it. And today we're talking to John Stonestreet about an incredible project that is dropping next week. John Stonestreet serves as the president of the Colson center for Christian Worldview. He's a sought after author and speaker on areas of faith and culture, theology, worldview education and apologetics. And he's the daily voice of the Breakpoint Podcast, which is nationally syndicated commentary on the culture. And it was founded by the late Chuck Colson and also from the Them Before Us perspective, a plug. Katie often gets to join that podcast, so it's awesome. You should definitely listen to it. He's also the voice of the Point, which is a daily one minute feature on worldview, apologetics and cultural issues. John, thanks so much for joining us today.
- [00:57]
B
Thank you. It's good to be on.
- [00:59]
A
Yeah. All right. He's joining us to talk about a new documentary that is a joint project between the Colson center and Focus on the Family and let us know if there's some other partners in there that we should recognize. And it's, it exposes the civilizational moment that we're in and then also offers some hope for the future. What should Christians be doing? Amazing stories. But to start off, John, I'd just love to hear from you. What was the motivation for starting. I mean, it's kind of sounds like a huge project. What's the motivation for making a documentary like this?
- [01:31]
B
Yeah, yeah, huge project is right. I mean, the story arc goes from civilization to calling, which is quite a journey. And one of the folks who jumped on board to help and really kind of serves as the Gandalf, the guide of the, of the film is Oz Guinness, you know, the one and only, who has written and thought about both of those things. So that's, that's part of it is really, you know, letting him teach us, you know, really what is happening in this cultural moment. Why does it feel like there's so many things that are so high stakes? How did things go from being unthinkable a generation ago to unquestionable today? And who's going to win? Why does it feel like we're being kind of jolted back and forth by that? That's part of the motivation. But then also how do we live in the middle of that? And that's really the punchline of it. But working with Focus on the Family was great because, you know, we both have a history in helping the church think about the world and to think a bit in terms of truth. So if you start with Francis Schaeffer, you know, the guy who walked around talking about the Christian influence on the Western world and how that brought things like, you know, human dignity and medicine and that sort of thing, and how these other ideas were threatening the future of the Western world. And so we need to. Again, he. What did he call for? He called for truth. And then Chuck Colson follows that with How Now Shall We Live? The book that he wrote with Nancy Pearcey and the Breakpoint commentaries and everything else. And what did he call for? Truth. We need truth. And at the time. And then Focus on the Family released the Truth project with Del Tackett. And the idea was, we need to know what's true. We need to know what's true. In all of those previous projects, there was this prediction of this where it would go, if we abandoned truth, what kind of world would it bring, what kind of society? And you could kind of see it by looking back at pre Christian societies, right? What did pagan societies look like? Well, they sacrificed children, you know, well, women were treated poorly and dehumanized. Well, you know, there. There was all kinds of ways that the world became less and less and less humane prior to Christianity. And of course, the prediction was, if you give up on truth, we're going back to that. Now all those predictions have come true. You know, we live in such a crazy cultural moment where up is called down and down is called up. And I mean, the work that them before us does better than anybody is to point out how children are the victims of bad ideas. Right? And so then what do. How are we supposed to respond to this? Truth Rising is really the next step in that series. And we're also calling folks like the previous projects did, to know what's true. But it requires more right now. We have to actually live what is true. We have to make critical decisions at a moment to actually put our feet down and say, this is what's true. And when we do that, God can do amazing things. When we do that, it can make an incredible difference. And we've seen some examples of that. So the film starts with, what has the abandonment of truth done to the Western world? And what kind of place are we in? A really vulnerable place. And it ends with these stories of individuals who have decided, I'm going to stand on the truth, leave the results up to God. And the amazing thing that's happened. So it's really something that calls all of us to be those kind of courageous truth tellers.
- [05:09]
A
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is interviewed in the documentary and she made such a great point. She said, right now Western civilization is emphasizing everything that's bad about us. But I think most of the people listening, if you grew up, especially if you grew up in more of a public school system, you probably are pretty familiar with the things that are bad about Western civilization. What would be kind of a quick summary of what Truth Rising says are the good things that Western civilization produced. And you mentioned some of them, treatment of women and things like that, but.
- [05:40]
B
Sure, but all those are rooted in a particular idea. Chuck Colson said it was the greatest contribution that Christianity ever gave to the wider world. And we take it all now for granted, as if there is such a thing as human dignity. In other words, we should think about humans in a special sort of way that's not common. Bishop Baroness Philippa Stroud is one of the people that are interviewed. Remarkable woman who has led all kinds of incredible political charge movements in the uk and she points to it, this idea that people are valuable because they're made in the image of God. Constantine Kisson, who is a. And not a believer, is an agnostic, I think a comedian in the film. He points to the same thing. You know, he calls it the sacredness of the individual. And, you know, he's someone who doesn't really believe in the sacred. And isn't it interesting, by the way, that what we have seen in recent years are people who just a generation ago, or even 10 years ago, back in 20 years ago, in the 90s or whatever, told us that God is a delusion and religion poisons everything. Remember all those voices, some of those same voices are now telling us that we need Christianity or we will no longer have a category for human dignity. And it's human dignity that made us say, oh, women deserve the same rights as men. It's human dignity to say that kids aren't property that can just be thrown out into the backyard and disposed of. It's human dignity and that owes itself to Christianity. And even atheists realize that. So I think that's the primary thing. And I think it's. It's all that's rooted in what's true. What's true about who we are as people, what's true about the moral nature of the universe and the forces that have really dismantled Western culture. And you're right, this is articulated really clearly in the film where they look at it. Ian says it very well because the forces that have dismantled truth have been the forces of various forms of deconstruction. And one of the agnostic atheist voices there that talks about how significant this is is David Berlinski, just a brilliantly odd guy who says something really powerful. He says that we're now kind of dominated by those who just want to tear down. And people can tear down because tearing down is easy. Building's hard. Tearing down's easy. And he has this line where he says, someone who couldn't build a pigsty perfectly capable of tearing down a chateau and someone who could never build a culture, never build a civilization, can nonetheless tear it down. What an important audience and, and, and. Or an important point. And then for us as Christians, we want to go, well, what are we called to. We're not called to tear down. We're called to build up. We're called to love God and love our neighbor and to do it in these profound ways. And so, yeah, that's, that's really kind of the level that we're working on now. Here's why we're doing this, okay? Because this is really big. Some people are listening to that, going, hey, this is really big. Civilizational level. St. It is. Why does it matter? Real simple. Because we are now at this critical moment where Western civilization can go one way or the other. This is what Oz calls in the film a civilizational moment. It's a pivot point. It's a crucial time. He calls it a cut flower moment, right? Where the ideas like human dignity that animated the Western world have been cut off. And when you cut a flower from its source, it still shines for a while, then it withers and dies. Most civilizations die out, right? They get cut off from those sources. Some of them get animated by a different set of ideas. A lot of times those are really bad, revolutionary ideas and really scary. Every once in a while, you'll see a civilization renewed. There's not very many examples of that. Most of the time they decline. I don't know what the future holds. I don't know if this is a moment of renewal or this is a moment of decline in the long run. But here's what I do know. What the Bible says very clearly is that God calls his people to particular times and places. In other words, if it's indeed a civilizational moment and all this stuff is at stake, well, why am I here? Why was I born in this time and place and not in another one? I know a lot of us Long for the good old days. Right. But that's not what this is. God intentionally. This is what Paul told the Epicurean and stoics in Acts 17, that God determines the exact times in which we live in the boundaries of our dwelling place. So we think about calling a lot of times as being called to a work or called to a project or called to a ministry or called to an act of charity. All that's true. What we don't often think is that we're called to what Os Guinness says in the film, the awa, you know, which he says in that great British accent, the awa, you know, this time and place. And it's a critical time and place. And that's all we wanted to do with this film, is say, let's reckon with this. Let's figure out what kind of lives we need to live.
- [10:31]
A
Yeah, I'm. I'm just curious what your take is on going back to your point about how easy it is to tear things down. And even if we gave the folks, you know, it's kind of the they. This mysterious they in. In the world. Why do they want to tear everything down? There's a lot of, oh, because it was based on slavery and, you know, colonization and white oppression, all these sorts of things. But I think it's also important for Christians to recognize the Bible talks about, are we fighting against other humans? Is this deeper than just, I disagree with these people politically, and so we're fighting with each other. Is there a spiritual element to it? Does the documentary touch on that? But I guess, are they trying to tear down, to rebuild something different, or is the tearing down the point that's the end goal?
- [11:18]
B
Yeah. I mean, I think. I think there's probably different answers to that. I think, though, the dominant answer, or the most important answer is we don't fight against people, we fight against princes, principalities. And where Paul says that, he goes on to say that those principalities take the form of ideas. So therefore, we tear down arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God. If you asked Alexander Solzhenitsyn, the Russian dissonant, the fundamental explanation for everything that he had seen in the Soviet Union and everything that he had seen, even in the west, that he critiqued. Remember, he got booed for talking about this at Harvard University in 1979. It's that very simple. Men have forgotten God, and we have come out of a time period where there was a real attempt to build a world without God. That's where a lot of the new atheist voices came. Ian Hirsi Ali was one of those voices, you know, basically looking at reason and science as the hope of mankind, getting rid of religious superstition. That was the myth of the Enlightenment. But what I am realized and what a lot of people have realized is that, that secularism can't fulfill that promise. I was just having a conversation with Justin Brierly of who's who's a podcaster in the UK who has been tracking kind of this religious revival, what's called a quiet revival over there. And you know, he said something that was really interesting because, you know, you remember we all talked about the rise of the nuns, the young people who wanted to remain religiously unhappy, unaffiliated. And in America, a lot of them said the reason that they didn't want to have anything to do with God or a specific form of Christianity, Some of them were still pretty religious, but because the church had let them down. Brierly says that one of the factors to young people, and in actually says this in a number of places to actually go back to religion, is that secularism has let them down. It hasn't brought meaning, it hasn't brought purpose. The promises are hollow. I mean, think about it. We were going to save the world through science. That's what people believed at the end of the 1800s, at the end of 1900s. We basically have the world for most of that century on the verge of a mutual destruction because of the, a pinnacle achievement of science. Right. Which is the nuclear bomb. Why is that? Well, because this technology is always in the hands of people and people are fallen and people reject God and civilizations go through these, these, this process. And I think there's a lot of answers to that question, not just one, but that's kind of the big picture one. Now, what does that mean for us? Well, hey, good news. It's also an opportunity for us and it's an opportunity for us to kind of push people back to this explanation for the universe, to truth, and what a good gift the Christians can give to the world. Right now.
- [14:24]
A
I think, I don't remember his name exactly, but I think you mentioned him. He was the man who is kind of very artistic. He's kind of down in his chair and.
- [14:33]
B
Yeah, with the jean vest. Yeah. His name is David Berlinski. He's a mathematician, a brilliant guy and a cultural critic. And he's just one of those kind of unafraid guys to say, but, but he has been very critical of God in the past.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And now kind of Again, one of those voices that has come around and said, well, we need Christianity, we need these ideas. These ideas. There's a reason that Western civilization became the dominant civilization on the planet. And it's brought a lot of good things. It doesn't mean it's perfect. There's no perfect civilization. But civilizations come and go, civilizations die, mostly, and it takes a while and you reach this critical moment.
- [15:10]
A
Yeah. One of the things he mentioned in the doc, in the Truth Rising documentary is he said institutions, all the institutions we looked to have gone through sort of an internal dissolution. So the idea that they don't even look at themselves like they have anything worthwhile to offer or that they're not respectable sort of internally, and therefore now no one looks at them with respect. He mentioned the irs. A lot of us in the States think about the cdc, the things that came out of COVID You look at your. The school system, and you start to look at the FBI, the CIA. You look at all these things where we're kind of like, they had our best interests in mind. Right. And then these things come out and you start thinking, no one has our best interests in mind. Everyone, like you're saying, is it's all being run by humans. There's. There's a million different kinds of political views they might have or ideological views they might have that are influencing what they do and where we might have thought they did care about us as a people, we're starting to recognize that's not the case. And I wonder if that has something to do with. There's a lot of people that thought science would save us. I think there's a lot of people that think the government will save us if we could just get the right policies. And if my party is in charge, we're going to get the stuff we want done. Even Republicans with Trump in charge, and then some of the things he was talking about with ivf, which is things them before us cares about particularly, then we started to be a little disenfranchised, like, okay, now you guys aren't really getting it right in this area that we really care about. And I wonder if that's part of why young people, they're trending conservative, but not necessarily even politically. It's more the ideas of, yeah, marriage and family and I should live in a community and not be online. Those things are starting to, I think, kind of have a resurgence as well as turning back to faith.
- [17:01]
B
Yeah, no, you're exactly right. And I do think we're in a moment of a profound Crisis of trust, right? I mean, you think about the things that we have just taken for granted for a long time. You remember, you know, the commercials of the. Of, you know, when I was growing up, 9 out of 10 dentists prefer Crest. And then no one ever argues that anymore in any kind of commercial because we all know that 9 out of 10 dentists will prefer anything that you pay them to prefer. And this, you know, extends to the big pharma and big this and big government and big Eva and big everything else. And there's just a profound crisis of trust. But that also is, I think, some really important aspects of our marching orders as Christians, because who else has that potential? The church does. And the church has the potential to step in and be a source of social cohesion that people are longing for, to be a bellwether of what matters and what is good and what's true that people are longing for. And they're not finding it anywhere else, right, to truly care for one another. And they're not finding that anywhere else. So I think it's an incredible opportunity. And it's also a warning that, you know, because it's really interesting. We've been working on this project long enough to talk about the cultural crisis and then get to what many people are calling this vibe shift, right? This, you know, what many people believe is this pushback against trans, this pushback against crt, this pushback wokeism, and praise God, that that's happening. And a lot of that's happening in the form of, you know, political, you know, change. And. But it. I think it's also clear, oh, well, politics. This isn't a political problem fundamentally. So politics can do so much, but it can't do everything. And that's a good warning for us. I think it's also a good warning for us that what really has happened in the vibe shift is. And this is a fundamental message of the film, what's happened in the vibe shift is we have essentially backed off of some of the worst lies of our culture. But disassociating or condemning things that aren't true is important, but it's not the same as realigning and reattaching to what is true. And that's really the next step if we're going to see real renewal. And, you know, this is exactly what Paul says we're to be. Paul doesn't tell us that if you're in Christ, you will renew culture. He says, if you have been reconciled to God, you have been called to be an agent or A minister of reconciliation. So that's really what we call. So we start with this kind of big in the film, this massive look at civilization, and then go to calling. And the fundamental calling that I think every single one of us has, if it's true that we're not in this cultural moment by accident, is to tell the truth. And we'll have to tell the truth in ways, right? It's one thing to believe what's true if everybody else believes it. It's another thing to believe what's true if you're going to face real social cost, if you're going to face a real penalty for believing it, much less saying it out loud. And a lot of people, what we have seen in the church, because of that pressure, have resorted to either anger or silence. And if you're angry or you're silent, that oftentimes betrays a crisis of confidence. And our confidence, fundamentally, is in the fact that Jesus Christ is risen from the dead and we can be ministers of reconciliation and bring renewal to the spheres that we're in. What's going to happen on the gargantuan level? I tell people all the time, I don't know if this is a Wilberforce moment or a Bonhoeffer moment, right? These are two great men. Both did exactly what God had called them to do, and one succeeded and one failed. And neither man was a failure because that's how God worked. And so I think that's the same question we have. And. But we can't let expect the government to do the job that it can't do. We are right now at a moment where the direction of culture is being determined by political power. And that makes us very vulnerable. And it also is. How do I want to say this? I mean, gosh, the potential for us to have a big old blind spot is huge. So we're calling people to truth. We're calling people to know what's true. As we say in the film, you also got to live what's true. And that means you got to love what's true, right? It's what matters. How do you explain Jack Phillips? How do you explain this little baker, this wonderful guy, super nice guy in Colorado, you know, before it was even a cultural crisis, in many ways makes an important decision to say, I'm not going to go along with something that's not true. You know, I mean, what real difference would it have made had he just baked the cake? No one would have ever known. He said, I can't bake this cake. But he still loved the people that came into his store. And it became a 13 year ordeal that transformed his life, that transformed the lives of a whole lot of other people. And the cultural renewal that has come out of that. No one could have calculated that. That's completely up to God. It was that moment, that choice. You know, Katie didn't have to jump on this children's rights thing. She's one of the stories we tell. We love telling Katie's story because she was a pastor's wife and, you know, she made the decision and she was emboldened by her community. Somebody pointed that up out as part of her story. If you don't know Katie's story, why she does them before us. You got to watch this film because it's all. I mean, I know, you know, but, you know, if our listeners don't know, they need to. They need to know. I love the story we tell of Chloe Cole because Chloe believed a lie. And when we say ideas have consequences and bad ideas have victims, Chloe was a victim at 16. She underwent a double mastectomy. 16. I mean, we hear these stories and then we're told they're not happening. And then this is Chloe. Chloe now is such an incredible, mature, articulate voice of what is good and what is true. It is beautiful and brilliant. So part of being a truth teller is being willing to say I was wrong. And knowing that truth transforms. I n's story is very much like that coming out of radical Islamic background to an atheist background, to realizing that the promises of secularism. In fact, she says it so clearly. She was always looking for freedom. She certainly didn't get it in her Muslim from radical Islam. And she thought she was going to get it from secularism and science and reason and free thought. And it didn't come either. You know where she found it? In Jesus Christ. What confidence, you know. And then Seth Dillon, you know, the Babylon Bee, which is my favorite in many ways because I have the spiritual gift of sarcasm too. And you know, he made a choice in the middle of Cancel Culture. You remember Cancel Culture, you remember, you know, where there was such a price to pay. And Babylon Bee is a media company and they made this decision and they paid an enormous price and they just stuck to their guns. And I mean, you look at the last four or five years, who would have guessed all these things would happen? And you can point back to their decision not to pull down that tweet as one of the catalysts for it, Right? So anyway, I know I'm going on, but That's. I think that's the call, right, to be a truth teller. And we are all truth tellers. We are all called to be truth tellers. You know, George Orwell said, in an age of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. And that's that courageous Christian life that I think Katie talks about in the film that we're all called to do. It doesn't seem like that big to tell the truth. Sometimes it can be really, really big.
- [24:56]
A
What's so fascinating as you're laying them all out, you just see that pattern over and over again, that they are, for the most part, people who are kind of just doing their own thing. I mean, Seth Dillon is more of a public figure and whatever, but, you know, Jack Phillips is kind of doing his own thing, running his business. Katie is a pastor's wife. Chloe Cole's in high school. And they each got to some point where they were challenged to do something that was in conflict with their personal values. And they had to decide if they were going to cave or if they were going to decide to stand up. And it doesn't seem like that big of a deal. I remember. I remember there being posts that would say on Facebook, Jesus would bake the cake.
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B
You know, Right.
- [25:38]
A
It's not a big deal. You just need to do. Just love people and just do what you're told. And for Katie, she talks about in the film, you know, I thought, I just need to take down the blog. So this guy who's trying to dox all these people will let everyone off the hook. And for Chloe Cole, it's, you know, you're. You're feeling these different things. You're getting nudged into it. But I think her challenge was, like you said, when she decided to start changing her mind or to detransition, she could have been gone quietly off into the night. What she decided to do was put herself at the front line to start taking all those arrows and say, I don't want this to happen to anybody else. I'm not going to be quiet about it. You know, and she's not calling her parents horrible people or, you know, hating anyone. But she's trying to say, no, I'm trying to help this from happening to anyone else. So you do see all of these people. Someone had to stand up to do it. And much further down the line, when we see the Babylon Bee do it, then we see, like, an Elon Musk, you know, take charge of that. And someone who has real power and money and is able to help influence A lot of things. But it doesn't feel like he's doing it at the same amount of cost as little people who decide to do it. I mean, Jack Phillips was being crushed by the legal system for what, a decade or something? So 13 years. Encouraging. For those of us that don't have power and money, we still have to stand up. We don't know where that's going to lead.
- [26:59]
B
Yeah, you're exactly right. And yes, they did it because it conflict. They took the very stands because of their personal values. But think about what they believed about those things. They didn't believe those values were subjective. They believed those values were true. And this is where I think a lot of people have believed a lie. At the end of the film, Chloe Cole says, there's no your truth. No, my truth, Jesus Christ is the truth. And I remember the Truth project, which is. This is really in the vein of that. It's one of the reasons that focus on the family wanted to, you know, we wanted to work together on this is to follow up on that. Where Del Tacky begins that by saying, do you believe that what you believe is really real? And this is what he meant was, is, do you actually believe what you believe is true? Not just true for you, but true with a capital T. Francis Schaeffer talked about true truth. Chuck Colson, I could hear still hear his raspy voice, voice, truth, truth. We need truth. Del Tackett, do you believe that what you believe is actually true is that it's reality, not just personal? And this is really the next stage. And I don't think we do. You know, and I think it's. If somebody comes up and wants to fight with me about whether the earth is round or flat, I don't get really riled up by that. You know, I certainly don't get intimidated. I don't get really, like, angry and hostile and just rant and, you know, because I have a good deal of confidence in what I believe. So if my response when somebody challenges, you know, when life begins, or how God created us, male and female, or, you know, whether people should be able to order their public lives based on the things that they believe, I don't. If I get quiet and I back out of this, or if I just rant and rave, it betrays a crisis of confidence. And this is a project that's kind of aimed at that crisis of confidence. Because I think, hey, what we know is defensible. And I hope what the stories reveal is we can trust God with the results. I mean, is that Jack Phillips story or what? Can we trust God with the results? You bet. Is that Chloe's story? You bet. Is that Ayan's story? I mean, just makes me cry because you realize she has come to grasp the significance of it, not just on both a civilizational level and a personal level. Right. Katie and I were both. I think, I think she was at the ARC conference in London the first time too. Right. The very first one. And this is when Ian first announced that she was a Judeo Christian, I think is how she put it. And a thousand people in the room gasped because everyone thought she was an atheist. And like, well, what has changed? You know, and. And then for her it was wrestling with, as she put it in an article just a few months later, that secularism wasn't going to be able to deliver the meaning and the things that we needed so desperately right now in Western culture. And then at the last argument, which was just last year, she went through the foundations of Western 10, I think 10 foundations of Western culture and gave a Bible verse for each one. And then on a number of occasions and in the film tells the whole testimony where not only she believes this is what's good for the world, but she actually believes it's true and it's exactly what she always was looking for and didn't know it. Right. And so this is when something's true, it's true on those levels. It's true for the world, it's true for reality. It's true. And if it's true for reality, it's true for you. It's like gravity, you know, it's not like a something you make up. It's, it's, it's like gravity. And I just think that's so beautiful. And we Christians need that level of confidence in what's true.
- [30:49]
A
Yeah. What is your guys's hope for how people will watch this, what they will do? It premieres September 5th. People can watch it. A live streaming of it right. @truth rising.com. what's your hope for people listening?
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B
Well, it is a documentary and documentary is really part one. There's a follow up study that you can do in small groups that talk about how to cultivate courage. Courage doesn't come from nowhere. Right. Courage has to be. It's a virtue. Virtues are muscles. Muscles have to be worked out just like real muscles have to be worked out. I tried to be a weightlifter without weight lifting weights. It just didn't work. You can't be a virtuous person without kind of cultivating this and working out. And so the, really, the, this follow up study, which is designed for individuals and small groups, very accessible for, you know, short sessions on hope, truth, identity, calling, what I think are the four ingredients to cultural courage. And, and it can go along with that. So you go to truth rising.com you can sign up. If you're a pastor, you can actually sign up to watch it with your church. You can host a watch party. There are study guides and resources and interviews and things like that that you can go along with. But I mean, honestly, our goal is for a lot of people to watch this, but the reason we want them to watch it is very clear. I mean, what if there were thousands of Christians in every different culture, sorry, in every different cultural corner of the world that were just willing to take that step of courage when that crisis came, right? When that choice came, when that moment came, where they can either be silent or speak up, not thinking, well, what am I going to. I mean, what I do is not going to really matter, but thinking, you know what? I'm going to be faithful to what's true and I'm going to trust God with the results. Can you imagine if we could. And there are people everywhere that do that, but what if we could double that? What if we could triple that? What an amazing impact we could have, especially at a time, as the former Deputy Prime Minister of Australia says in the film, you know, we're, we're sputtering. The engine of Western culture is sputtering. We're out of gas and we're trying to put the wrong gas in. Right. So I just think it's a wonderful opportunity right now.
- [32:58]
A
Yeah, well, I got to see it yesterday because we got the special early link and of course, as done before us, we're so excited that Katie got to be a part of it and she loved being a part of it and her story, but like you said, so many incredible stories. Os Guinness takes us through that bigger picture and then we get to hear it lived out practically. So I think it'll be a great resource for folks. It'll be very encouraging. It's beautifully done. And yeah, everyone, you can go find it@truth rising.com and it will premiere probably the same day that you're hearing this podcast. It's premiering. So go to that link. And John, thank you so much for joining us and being part of this project and for all your work at the Colson center as well. Just encouraging Christians to live with a biblical worldview and to impact our culture.
- [33:41]
B
Hey, thanks so much. Great to be on with you today. And I really loved having Katie on the project. And it's always fun to work with her, but so grateful for them before us and the great work you guys do.