Them Before Us #103 | Are Gen Z Men Having a "Crisis of Purpose"? | Micah Kunkle

Summary

Them Before Us Podcast #103 | Are Gen Z Men Having a "Crisis of Purpose"? | Micah Kunkel
April 24, 2026
Host: Jennifer Friesen (Training Director, Them Before Us)
Guest: Micah Kunkel (Media Director, Maven)

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Jennifer Friesen welcomes Micah Kunkel, a 24-year-old media director for the Christian youth worldview organization Maven. The conversation centers on the crisis of purpose among Gen Z men, the challenges they face culturally and economically, and the impact of online spaces and identity politics. Drawing from Micah’s debate experience and his work mentoring young men, they explore how Christian worldview and community can combat toxic cultural currents like the manosphere, victim mentality, and rampant identity politics. The episode also delves into men's attitudes toward marriage, family, and reproductive technologies, highlighting the importance of male voices in these discussions.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Micah’s Background and Experience

[02:21-04:20]

• Micah shares how his passion for debate began in a Christian homeschool league and led to coaching and digital debates, including appearances on Jubilee’s popular debate shows.
• Maven, founded by his father, is a Christian worldview and apologetics organization focused on helping youth develop and apply a robust worldview in today’s culture.
• Micah’s role at Maven includes podcast production, marketing, social media, and leading immersive experiences for young people.

2. Debate as a Tool for Discourse

[06:52-11:41]

• Framing & Presuppositions:
  • “You've got to remember framing...Everybody is coming at this with a different worldview…always be aware of the framing of the debate and what presuppositions your opponent comes in with.”
    — Micah Kunkel [08:17]
• Key Debate Skills for Listeners:
  • Frame the debate and recognize underlying assumptions.
  • Identify and address presuppositions before engaging on surface issues.
  • Ask questions to uncover not just positions, but the reasoning and evidence behind them.
  • Many people’s beliefs aren’t deeply thought through—asking for evidence can shift the conversation.

3. Gen Z Men: Crisis of Purpose & Influence of Online Culture

[12:32-17:11]

• Crisis of Purpose:
  • “Young men are really having like a crisis of purpose, of meaning in their life. And they're really looking for things that are deeply rooted...They're searching for identity.”
    — Micah Kunkel [13:51]
• Polarization and Identity Gaps:
  • Gen Z men are splitting into extremes—either strongly right or strongly left politically—rooted in the search for identity and belonging.
  • The “manosphere,” highlighted as a toxic space, encourages superficial self-improvement and a hyper-patriarchal, often misogynistic worldview (e.g., influences like Andrew Tate).

4. Identity Politics and the Pendulum Effect

[17:11-19:35]

• Host and guest discuss how years of identity politics, particularly from the left, have led to a backlash among some young men, moving them toward racial identity-based movements on the right.
• “It's the pendulum swing. We love to do this…instead of white people being the oppressors, it's white people are the oppressed, and actually Jews or black people are the oppressors. And so it's just flipping the script.”
  — Micah Kunkel [18:28]
• The discussion recognizes the dangerous cyclical nature of reactive identity politics, with both ends feeding each other.

5. Economic Strain and Marriage Attitudes Among Young Men

[19:35-24:07]

• Economic instability feeds men’s discouragement; perceived discrimination (e.g., in jobs or admissions) also fuels alienation.
• On marriage and family:
  • Some Gen Z men are marrying younger, inspired by “pro-marriage” and “trad wife” online subcultures.
  • Many avoid marriage due to manosphere’s influence—men viewing women as adversarial or seeing marriage as a trap due to the risk of divorce and custody loss.
  • Misogynistic or hyper-patriarchal attitudes are unattractive to women, leading to a cycle of mutual distrust.
  • “There’s a lot of men that don't want marriage at all because that’s kind of how they view women. And then, I think you also have men that do want marriage and kids, but they're kind of misogynistic, to be honest.”
    — Micah Kunkel [22:18]

6. The Self-Fulfilling Cycle of Gender Distrust

[24:07-26:08]

• Both hyper-feminism and the manosphere feed and reinforce each other, leading to cycles of mutual suspicion and alienation.
• Notable illustration: the fantasy that a male-free world would be problem-free, juxtaposed with the real-life essential contributions of men.
• The solution must break this cycle of adversarial gender narratives.

7. Finding Purpose: Solutions for Men

[26:08-28:08]

• The answer isn’t complicated:
  • “Not to give the typical Sunday school answer, but Jesus…having a biblical worldview about these things…when you start following it, you start flourishing as a human being.”
    — Micah Kunkel [26:08]
  • Practical steps:
    • Limit tech and video games—“go touch some grass,” get outdoors, engage in reality.
    • Join a church community, seek mentoring from older, wiser men.
    • Actually listen to and heed advice from elders.

8. The Impact of Digital Echo Chambers

[28:08-30:02]

• Social media algorithms fuel victim mentalities and amplify harmful content (both left and right).
• Real-life mentors offer needed correction:
  • “No, you're not a victim. You're just lazy and an idiot, and you need to get your life together.”
    — Micah Kunkel [28:54]
• The need for intergenerational relationships over isolated digital consumption.

9. INCEL Movement & Misinformation About Masculinity

[30:02-32:32]

• Host raises issue of incel (involuntary celibate) subculture—online spaces that reinforce victim mentality and antipathy toward women.
• The false belief that only “alpha” men are desirable, when in fact virtues like respect, responsibility, and kindness matter most to women.

10. Men’s Awareness of Reproductive Tech Issues

[32:32-33:50]

• Topics like surrogacy, IVF, donor conception are rarely discussed among young men, unless tangentially raised in debates about abortion.
• Example: A young man shocked after realizing the implications of being a sperm donor, following a conference talk.
• The industry preys on young men’s ignorance; more intentional education is needed.

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Memorable Quotes

• “Young men are really having like a crisis of purpose, of meaning in their life…They're searching for identity.”
  — Micah Kunkel [13:51]
• “Both the feminism and the manosphere ditches are self-fulfilling prophecies.”
  — Jen Friesen [24:07]
• “Not to give the typical Sunday school answer, but Jesus...the biblical worldview is the true worldview and it accurately describes reality.”
  — Micah Kunkel [26:08]
• “You need to fill your life with older Christian men that have walked through life and can give you good advice and speak into your life—and not just listen to them, but actually do what they say.”
  — Micah Kunkel [27:30]
• “The algorithm rewards attention...what often makes people feel good is the victim mentality.”
  — Micah Kunkel [28:54]
• “If you stay online, you're in those communities…it just reinforces the victim mentality. But good women are attracted to men who...treat people with respect, take care of themselves, they're kind to other people, they work hard, have purpose.”
  — Jen Friesen [31:10]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:21] – Micah’s background & work with Maven
• [06:52] – Debate tips: framing, presuppositions, and asking questions
• [13:51] – Crisis of purpose among Gen Z men; polarization
• [15:07] – Defining the “manosphere” and its influence
• [18:28] – Identity politics and the pendulum effect
• [21:19] – Marriage & family culture among Gen Z men
• [24:07] – Gender cycles: How feminism and manosphere reinforce each other
• [26:08] – Solutions: Biblical worldview, “touch grass,” seek mentors
• [28:54] – Algorithm-driven victimhood vs. real mentorship
• [30:02] – INCEL movement; what really attracts women
• [32:32] – Men’s understanding of surrogacy, IVF, and donor conception

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Resources & Where to Find Micah

• Social: @MicahKunkle (YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, X/Twitter)
• Maven: maventruth.com (see show notes for links)

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Conclusion

This episode offers a candid look at the challenges and possibilities for Gen Z men through the experiences of debate, mentorship, and Christian community. It highlights the pitfalls of digital echo chambers, the self-defeating cycles of gender distrust, and the overlooked role men play in key policy debates about family and children’s rights. The solution, Micah argues, is surprisingly simple: step into real-life community, seek wisdom, and embrace a worldview that leads to true human flourishing.

Transcript

[Micah Kunkel]

Foreign.

[Jen Friesen]

Welcome to the Them Before Us podcast. I'm your host, Jen Friesen. I'm the training director at Them Before Us, and I have the privilege of doing our podcast, which means I get to talk to so many fun and interesting people representing all sorts of organizations that are definitely aligned with them before us in the sense of we're all pushing toward a pro life, pro human, pro marriage and family narrative and movement. And today we are joined by Micah Kunkel, who is the media director for Maven, and he also does content creation and debate. And we'll get into that a little bit more about some of the other things that he's done. But Micah is 24 years old. He's married. I've seen him on Jubilee debates, which a lot of people maybe have seen the surrounded debates. You have one person in the middle and people rush at each other and wave flags and all sorts of things. And Micah works for Maven and his parents, I believe, founded Maven. Katie Faust at Them Before Us. Just got to speak at Maven's conference earlier this year in la, which is so nice. I got a sunburn being out with my table and all of our resources. When you're from Seattle, that's. That's always nice. And Maven is a Christian worldview organization that, that helps young people develop. What do they believe, why do they believe it, and then how you know your beliefs and your worldview impact your life and those around you. So, Micah, thanks so much for joining us on the themeforest podcast.

[Micah Kunkel]

Yeah, thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

[Jen Friesen]

I'm excited to talk to Micah because I got to meet you, Micah, at the Maven conference. I had seen you on some different debates and things like that, but I was particularly interested in getting more of a male perspective on things like marriage and family, things like reproductive technology. Just getting to hear from you with the young men that you get to hang out with, in with the interactions that you have, you know, kind of your take on the big topics that them before us talks about. Before we get into all of that, can you just share a little bit about yourself, about Maven, and then we'll kind of go into some of the experiences that you've gotten to have that have kind of put you up into bigger, you know, bigger and bigger platforms. So, yeah, just start with telling us about yourself.

[Micah Kunkel]

Yeah, well, I, I guess the, the place I'll start with is debate, because I love debate. That's how a lot of people know me. And so I did speech and debate in high school in a Christian homeschool league called stoa. And then I did that for four years. And then after that, kind of took a break and then started doing debate coaching, which I'm still currently doing. And so I've loved debate, and I've watched the Jubilee videos before. And so then I saw that they had a casting email, and so I signed up for it, applied for the video, and then I got in and then debated Dean Withers, who's a TikTok liberal debater, and I think I did pretty decently against him. And then Jubilee just kept asking me to come back. So that's kind of how I got started in doing more public online debates and my own social media content creation. But then my dad started Maven in 2017 and really wanted to start a youth worldview organization where apologetics is a huge part of what we do. But definitely it's more summed up in the word worldview and culture in particular, of, hey, like, actually going out and engaging the world that we're in. So I'm the media director for that. So I produce the podcast episodes. I help a little bit with the graphics and the marketing, and I kind of have my hands all over the place with Maven, and then I also serve as a field guide for their immersive experiences that they do. So, yeah, that's a little bit about me.

[Jen Friesen]

Oh, and you are in the California area. So I was thinking, you know, Jubilee keeps reaching out to you probably because it's harder for them to find perhaps conservatives that can be represented in their. They're surrounded in their shows. Do you think that's accurate?

[Micah Kunkel]

Yeah, I think that's accurate. I think Jubilee intentionally is trying to cast people. So one, I think they try to cast new people every time to see if there's anyone new that will kind of rise up. And then two, I think they try to cast people that have been in videos before to kind of maintain, like, characters, quote unquote characters throughout the show. And then I think they also try to cast some, like, crazy people and then some, like, more reasonable, calmer people. And so I like to think they're casting me because I'm more of one of those reasonable, calm people that will makes logical arguments. But I'm not sure that's what I would say when.

[Jen Friesen]

Because, you know, you stand out when you're. Because you're representing our quote unquote side, the more conservative side, the more Christian side. I can't remember off the top of my head, if you've had to delve into More explicitly Christian commentary. But because if you're debating, like, I can't remember if Dean kind of likes to throw out the Bible verses a lot or that's like some one of the other liberal young guys that I'm thinking of where they don't necessarily believe it's true, but then they try to like always throw them out because they've googled them at some level.

[Micah Kunkel]

Yeah, I think you're talking about Parker. I mean, Dean does that to a level, but because Parker and Dean actually started off debating religion.

[Jen Friesen]

Oh, okay.

[Micah Kunkel]

And then they moved into politics. Yeah, right.

[Jen Friesen]

Which is always interesting, I thought. So share, you know, share some specifics maybe of things that you've gotten to talk about. But I was just thinking how Ali B. Stuckey, when she went on, surrounded. I mean, she came on as a Christian commentator and people would give her Bible verses. So she was very much giving biblical commentary. But it is funny to like when let's talk about abortion and they're like, oh, well, actually Jews didn't believe that the baby was born until, you know, wasn't alive until they breathed their first breath. And as a Christian, even, I'm like, I'm not really debating Jewish theology in this moment. I'm trying to debate science. Right. So what's your experience been when you were debating? Like, what, what kind of topics did you end up talking about?

[Micah Kunkel]

Yeah, I mean, I've talked about a whole lot of different topics. So with the Dean one, I debated him on whether conservatives are actually pro family. And his argument was that, well, if you're voting for someone like Donald Trump, you can't say you're pro family because he's had this divorce and this and cheating on yada yada. And so I just, just kind of said, okay, well, let's take your argument to its logical conclusion and apply it to Democrats now. So does that mean everyone that voted for Bill Clinton amidst all the allegations are anti family? Right. So I debated him on that, debated him on abortion and then I've debated on guns. I've debated. On January 6, I've debated on abortion again with Tim Miller. And so, yeah, there's a lot of different wide ranging topics that I've debated on, but all generally political.

[Jen Friesen]

Yeah, well, maybe you can share with our listeners now you've been educated in debate and you help coach other people. What would be really important things for us to remember if we're going to get into a debate with someone? Maybe it's at your kitchen table with a family member. Maybe it's A more professional kind of setting.

[Micah Kunkel]

Yeah. I think I'm going to give you three great things.

[Jen Friesen]

Okay, that's great.

[Micah Kunkel]

So first one is you've got to remember framing, and that's the word we use in debate. Frame framing, how you frame the debate. Because everybody is coming at this with a different worldview. And so that will influence the type of arguments that you make and then the presuppositions you have even behind each claim. And so always be aware of the framing of the debate and what presuppositions your opponent comes in with. Because oftentimes it can be hard to have a debate when you disagree more fundamentally on some philosophical premise. Right. And so like if, if you're arguing with an atheist and they don't even believe, or a skeptic and they don't even believe, you can know truth. Well, there's no point in arguing about God's existence because they have a philosophical presupposition that will prevent them from even coming to that conclusion. So you have to debate that first. Right. So that's the first thing. The second thing is along those lines of identify the presuppositions and then argue those. And so look at the framing, figure out what the framing is, and then argue about the framing and actually get into what presuppositions there are. And this even applies to like Christian debates. So I just did a debate with a Catholic guy and we had just different views about epistemology or just how you know something. It's the study of knowledge and we just had different views. And so I started to try to go after those because again, we needed to address that before we can get into, you know, Sola Scripture and all that Catholic versus Protestant stuff. And then the third thing I would say is to ask questions, ask questions, Ask as many questions as you can. And if you go back in my jubilee debates, you'll notice that I'm actually trying to ask more questions now in that kind of format. Right. You have a limited time. And so I don't spend all my time asking questions because then I probably wouldn't be actually making any points. But especially in a longer form format with just some friends or family members, ask a lot of questions. You want to figure out first what the position is and then second why they hold to that position. And just ask them for evidence. It's crazy the amount of things people will say. And then you ask them for their reasons or evidence for that, and then they don't have any to give because they haven't actually really Deeply thought this through. And so just simply asking for like, okay, why do you believe that? What are your reasons? Do you have any evidence for a claim like that? So those are the three things that I would say.

[Jen Friesen]

We try to equip people at them before us to have conversations around marriage, family, surrogacy, et cetera. And a lot of this ends up being online because people will share something that we post and then they'll message us, oh no, my sister in law or my whoever is mad at me. So now I don't know what to say about this, this, this. And so it's good because it's great opportunity. The nice thing about online is you have a lot more time to look something up to kind of craft. Craft what you're going to say. Maybe some people online aren't as thoughtful with their commentary, but we do have time to be thoughtful with our commentary when it's online, which is nice. All right, I'd love to shift a little bit to, I guess I'm asking you to represent all of mankind that are 24 years old. You said you're 24. Yeah. No, I'm just kidding.

[Micah Kunkel]

A lot of pressure.

[Jen Friesen]

Yeah, no pressure. But I actually just want to get a little bit of a sense your take about what, what's kind of facing young men right now. Where are young men at in, in marriage and family culture in the United States? You know, we can talk about where they're at politically a little bit because I think it will, it will matter. But you know, them before us tends to be very female centric in terms of our listeners and followers on social media. Because I think a lot of men also have just believed, hey, it's about abortion or surrogacy, you're not allowed to have an opinion. And so they're kind of silent. I think there's an element of a lot of men have been so browbeaten by the culture, they think they're not allowed to lead, speak out, or they don't know how. And so we are trying to be intentional about making sure we're tapping into men's interests and them as an audience when it comes to these topics as well, because we think their voice is really important when it comes to marriage and family. But to sum all that up into kind of a sentence question for you, if you could identify what you think some of the big issues facing young men are right now, whether it's their thinking or just the practical things that they're facing, what do you think some of those things are?

[Micah Kunkel]

Yeah, I mean, I think, I think primarily young men are really having like a crisis of purpose, of meaning in their life. And they're really looking for like, things that are like, deeply rooted. They want to be deeply rooted into something and they're, they're searching for identity really. And so I think that's why we see like such a huge gap with Gen Z males. It's either like you're like far right Republican or you're like far left lefty as they can be. And I think that's part of the reason why we see that. And so I think that's the primary, that's like really the heart of it. And so, you know, it plays out in, in a bunch of different ways. And so like, the manosphere is one of those, I think, more toxic ways it plays out. And can you define kind of what

[Jen Friesen]

that is for people who are like, what are you talking about? I've never heard that term before.

[Micah Kunkel]

Yeah, the manosphere is like, kind of like super patriarchal, like type of influencers that are aimed at young men of like, hey, you need to go work out at the gym and get really ripped and make a bunch of money and sleep with a bunch of women and, and kind of that whole thing. And so like Andrew Tate would be a good example of that. And then most recently this guy Claviclear, the, the Looks Maxine movement, which is basically just like, try to make yourself look as best as you possibly can. That would be the latest iteration of something like that. So you kind of have like the manosphere. It's playing out in that way. And then on the political side, right, you do have more young men that are leaning farther. Right. And so that comes out in people like Nick Fuentes or you know, even a Tucker Carlson type. And so, yeah, that's kind of the issues we're struggling with. I think a lot of young men are like, just, especially on the right.

[Jen Friesen]

Right.

[Micah Kunkel]

Are just really sick of the status quo. I mean, even, even left and right, kind of sick of the status quo. I would say they're, they're sick of how things are going to be. And whether that's justified or not is another discussion. But that's definitely how they're feeling. And then they're definitely feeling like economically that there's not a ton of hope there. And so that's a huge concern for, for Gen Z men.

[Jen Friesen]

Well, it is interesting when we think about identity politics and, you know, the culture of the last 10, 15 plus years, if you're going to make everyone really Think about your skin color.

[Micah Kunkel]

Yeah.

[Jen Friesen]

And, you know, from the political left, the push has been, you really need to think about your skin color. And. And then they're saying, if you're a white guy, you need to feel really bad about it. You're the worst people that have ever existed in all of human history. Just so you know. You know, that's like the. The framing. And it is interesting because as you were talking about Nick Fuentes, who I think really kind of is adjacent to the white supremacy stuff, or, you know, I don't. Super. I don't follow him very closely. But now we are seeing a bit of an uptick in the white supremacy thinking, maybe from the. From men on the far right. But it's interesting because you've been telling men, you've been telling people all they need to think about is race and their skin color, and now you're surprised. You know, the culture's surprised when there's a bunch of young men that are like, okay, we're going to start thinking about our skin color. But actually, we're not bad. We're the best. And here's why. And here's why. And here's why. And so it's funny. It's like, it's actually, you know, the chickens coming home to roost, in a sense. And we've. I think. Oh, go ahead.

[Micah Kunkel]

Well, it's just. It's the pendulum swing, you know, and. And as humans, we love to do this. We love to swing the pendulum back and forth. And so, yeah, I mean, there is huge identity politics, you know, kind of woke leftism that happened especially in 2020, that kind of culminated there with the George Floyd riots. And so I think you're seeing the response of that on the right, which is just identity politics, but on the right. And so, you know, instead of white people being the oppressors, it's white people are the oppressed, and actually Jews or black people are the oppressors. And so it's just flipping the script. And so that's why I like, I do like the term woke, right. To describe some of these people, because they're just taking the critical theory of the left and then applying it to different groups.

[Jen Friesen]

Yeah, I think the first time I heard about the woke. Right. Was it James Lindsay? Do you follow him at all or listen to his stuff? Yeah, he's so. I think he's very brilliant. He's, like, too smart for me. So I don't follow him too much because I have a hard time understanding what he's talking About. Yeah, two, two. Two of the things that you brought up I think are really interesting and I think it kind of leads well into the next question. There's an identity crisis for young men and then the financial crisis that's sort of more broadly in the west or the United States. The idea of people talk about you can't just go get one job, have one income and then go buy a house and just pay for your kids to go to school. It's not, it felt a lot more like that in the 50s and 60s and whatever. But now if you're a young man and you've got this identity crisis and there's this financial crisis, there's not a ton of hope that it's just going to be. I mean, we've. This is being documented that white men are not being hired for jobs that they are completely qualified for and should be able to work for because of all this other identity politics stuff that has been, you know, that we're swimming in. So that's difficult. You feel like I can't even get into the school I want, I won't be able to get the job I want because of the color of my skin. And obviously this is, that's kind of talking about men who, who look white or have lighter skin. But there's issues facing all young men, kind of all races and ethnicities. But if you combine those things and then you say, hey, we need to start pushing marriage and family, you know, how does that hit young men? Why aren't young men getting married? And you are married, so maybe you can talk about, hey, how did you escape? Not, you know, not get sucked into those negative things. But what do young men think about when they think about getting married or having kids and becoming a dad?

[Micah Kunkel]

Yeah, well, there are. I mean, I think Gen Z is getting married younger than other generations before it. So there's definitely a lot of like, pro marriage talk within Gen Z. And you know, specifically like with the kind of like trad wife movement too, of, you know, traditional wife, like kind of going back a little bit more to like, women staying at home and taking care of children. I think that's part of the reason why we've seen that too. But on the flip side too, there's also, you know, I see a lot of young men that aren't dating or aren't getting married because they've kind of bought into the manosphere type mentality and just that, you know, oh, well, women are evil. And it's kind of like a response to feminism. Right. And how feminism evolved is not just, oh, well, we should give women equal rights. It's that no, actually men are evil, men are bad and the patriarchy is terrible and things like that. And so now we're kind of seeing a response to that of well, no, that's actually women that are the ones that are evil and if you get married, they're just going to cheat on you, divorce on you, and take the home and take the kids. And so there's a lot of men that are like that, that don't want marriage at all because that's kind of how they view women. And then I think you also have men that, that do want marriage and do want kids, but they're kind of misogynistic, to be honest. Like they're, they, they believe in a, like hyper patriarchalism that is actually demeaning towards women. And it's not that men and women are complements to each other and they both bring strengths and weaknesses, but that the men bring the strength and the women bring their weaknesses. That's actually what they end up believing. And women don't find that appealing or attractive whatsoever. And so they don't want to date these, or marry these men that, that view them that way. And so I think those two things are negative. But I mean I, there's a lot of young men that I know that are married, that are, have families that have done a great job in their life. And so that is an encouraging thing to, to see too.

[Jen Friesen]

Yeah. As you're saying that, it kind of struck me that it feels like both the feminism and the manosphere. You know, ditches are self fulfilling prophecies. You just keep, you know, if you, you inculcate women with how evil men are and you don't need men. There was this funny post where a woman was like, you know, if you went a week without, if men just disappeared off the planet in a, for a week, it'd be awesome. And people were just laying out all of the ways that basically life as we know it would cease to function. The infrastructure that we trust. You know, when I lose power overnight, I go to sleep. It's like, you know, oh, I don't have power, but it's 10:30. Okay, whatever, I'll go to sleep. I wake up the next morning, my power's back. Because probably statistically, men were hanging off those, you know, telephone poles, fixing wires while wind is still like throwing them around, working overnight in the rain and wind to restore power to houses. So there's just this funny thing of, yeah, Women acting like we would all be better and safer if there were no men. Everything would be totally fine. All of our problems would disappear if there's no men. And, and then, you know, how long can men hear that? And then men now on the flip side are like, well, you know, what would really solve everything is if I've become more harsh and more just like, yeah, patriarchal and strong and you just do whatever I want, which then the women are like, see, that's what we told you. Don't, don't do that. So now we're going to treat men like they're more evil and just like on and on and on in a cycle. So, you know, in our final few minutes, just tell us, you know, what we need to do to fix everything. Yeah, but what do you think are the things that you've seen or heard that are making a difference for people? Whether that's some of the things that we can encourage young men to go, Some of the influences that we could encourage them to go listen to, or. Yeah. What do you see as some of the solutions to the problems?

[Micah Kunkel]

Well, not to give the, like, typical Sunday school answer, but Jesus. But in like, all seriousness, but like, yeah, seriously, like, and, and, and, and having a biblical worldview about these things, because the biblical worldview is the true worldview and it accurately describes reality. And so when you start following it, you start flourishing as a human being. And so I think practically what this looks like is one, I think a lot of young men need to get off of technology. Like, they need to go touch some grass. Like, seriously, like, they actually need to, you know, limit how many video games they're playing. Whatever. And I love video games, so that's not to say don't play them at all, but like, you know, play an hour and then go outside, go hang out with friends. Like, you get your sunlight, get your vitamin D, you know, like, actually go outside and interact with the world and then join a church community I think is huge. And get mentoring from older people. I know Gen Z in particular, and I make these jokes all the time about boomers and Unks and you're just old and whatever. But in reality, older people have more wisdom than we do. And so you need to fill your life with older Christian men that have walked through life and can give you good advice and speak into your life and not just listen to them, but actually do what they say. Like, actually follow the advice that they give. And so I think practically it looks like those two things or those three things, touch grass, go to church. Go listen to older men.

[Jen Friesen]

Yeah, that's so good. Well, and as you're saying, get off tech. But like you're saying, some of the problem with the tech as well is who are the voices you're listening to? Because you're kind of pointing out men want to be led by someone, by strong men. And the problem is with the tech, it's being designed, the algorithm and all these things, it's putting strong men in front of you as a young man. But the messages they're sending could be completely antithetical to what's actually good for your flourishing versus, like, you're saying, engage with social media, engage with tech, and then go out and be with a real man who's married, who has kids, who works a job, who does hard things, who helps. You know, he says, come build a shed with me and get wisdom from him. That's going to be way different than just YouTube videos.

[Micah Kunkel]

Yeah, well, and the algorithm. The algorithm rewards attention, right? And so what? And it rewards what makes us feel good. We'll give attention to what makes us feel good. And what often makes people feel good is the victim mentality. I mean, again, going back to woke left, woke right. Like, this is there's a victim mentality that's part of this. That's, oh, I'm a victim. I haven't done anything wrong in my life. There's nothing I can do to change anything like this. I'm just the victim. And I'm seeing it a lot in young men, too. And so that's being fed by the algorithm. And so when you actually go talk to a real man in real life that has a family that isn't chronically online, they're going to be like, no, you're not a victim. You're just lazy and an idiot, and you need to get your life together, you know? So that's why I think it's so valuable to actually go talk to older men.

[Jen Friesen]

It just made me think about the INCEL movement, which is shorthand for involuntary celibate. And these guys, people who would say they are that or defined as that. It's basically what we mean when we say it's the angry guy, like in mom's basement. It's like someone who doesn't go outside and doesn't have friends and is just perpetually online, but communicates kind of a hatred of women because they feel like, well, nobody wants me me, nobody wants to date me, and nobody wants to sleep with me. But it is interesting because what the problem is, you Know, when you stay online, you're in those communities. It just reinforces the victim mentality and the like, women hate me and I'm undesirable, but it's not because of maybe like necessarily what they look like or the things that they might think. Well, women only like men who have that super square jaw and they only want men who have a hundred, you know, a million dollars in the bank and they get sucked into that versus like what you're saying is like, no, but good women are attracted to men who, they have a job, they treat people with respect, they take care of themselves, they're kind to other people, they work hard, they have kind of a purpose where they're going. It's like those men do not have to look like Andrew Tate or whatever to be able to just have good connections and have women that find them attractive. And there's like a dating and a, and a marriage issue on both sides. Like people who want to get married who are like, I don't know where to find that person. But yeah, it's just sad because it reinforces the feelings, the negative feelings they have. But then they never feel like, oh, we'll break out of it and go make those positive choices. That's what actually makes you attractive to the opposite sex. You know, not the angry Reddit typing or whatever it is. So final thought, do you feel like the topics, some of these, again, they seem very maybe female centric topics like surrogacy, IVF donor conception, sperm and egg donation. Do these things come up in conversations for young men? Very much. They pop up in the news, they pop up with celebrities. I'm just curious how much developed thinking there is for young men. Like, in your experience, do you think people talk about it? Because that is hard if they haven't thought about it. And you go into a marriage and your wife is can't get pregnant and it's like, I guess we are just going to do XYZ because she's maybe more read in on it than the man is. So I'm just curious what you think the state of education on those topics is for young men.

[Micah Kunkel]

Yeah, I don't think it's much. I think the men that are more educated in it is because of like abortion and just abortion will naturally raise up those types of questions. I mean, that's one of the ways, I mean, I really found out more about, about that stuff is through the abortion conversation. Because, I mean, I even had a Tim Miller on the Jubilee debate say, well, I mean, if you're Against. You know, if you're against abortion from the moment of fertilization, then, I mean, there's some implications on ivf. And I was like, yeah, and a lot of us pro lifers are not for ivf. And so, anyway, so I think that's the only. That's kind of the segue into education about that. But, yeah, the young men. I don't. It's not really popping up in conversation. I mean, marriage is, kids are. And then that often leads to talking about feminism or something like that, and then eventually Israel, because all conversations lead back to Israel somehow.

[Jen Friesen]

But, yeah, at a conference, we were just at where I saw you again. Katie spoke, and a young man came to our table, and he looked shocked. And I would have put him in his 20s. I'm not sure how old he was, but he came up and was like, basically, her talk had kind of blown his mind. He's like, I was a sperm donor in college. And I was like, oh, so you're. So you're a dad, basically, or so you have kids basically, probably. And he said, yeah, I know, of 10. But he looked like he was gonna cry. I mean, he. I. It really was like he had not connected the dots until he heard Katie's talk. And so I just gave him my card because it didn't feel like the appropriate moment to be like, here's our book, or, you know, read the fact sheet. Yeah, but I just gave him my card. It's like, hey, if you want to talk anymore. But I just thought about that because, again, the. You know, the industry is preying on young men and women. Hey, donate your sperm, pay for college. Donate your eggs, pay for college. Be a surrogate. And they don't tell you, oh, Also, you'll have 10 kids that are yours walking around or more. So it's really difficult. Well, Micah, where can people find you and see more of the things that you're up to?

[Micah Kunkel]

Yeah, you can find me on YouTube, on Instagram, on TikTok, and on X. It should all be at Mikakun, so. M I C A H K U N K L E. Awesome.

[Jen Friesen]

All right, and we'll put the link to Maven and your social media in our show notes as well. Micah, thanks so much for your time and all the work that you're doing to encourage all young people, not just young men, but all young people toward a good Christian apologetic and developing and defending a great worldview. Thanks for your time.

[Micah Kunkel]

Yeah, thank you. And we love your ministry. I mean, we had Katie come out and speak. So thank you, guys for all the work you're doing as well. It's important. It's important stuff.

[Jen Friesen]

Yeah. All right. Thank you. Thanks, guys, for listening. Hope you enjoyed this conversation. And check the show notes for the links to all the important things you got to check out.