Them Before Us #108 | The Powerful, the Weak, and Global Human Dignity | Life International - Them Before Us Podcast

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[00:06]
A
Hey everyone. Welcome to the Them Before Us podcast. I'm your host, Jen Friesen. And today we are interviewing a few people from another great organization that is doing Pro Life Pro family work. And this organization in particular focuses on countries around the world. And I got to meet Alyssa at the Share the Arrows conference where Katie spoke. That's Ali B. Stuckey's conference last year. So, yeah, two of the folks from Life International are joining us. We have Zach, who is the director of International ministries for Life International. He champions the Father's heart for Life and empowers communities to recognize the biblical value of every human being. And then Alyssa is the director of communications for Life International. And this is a global ministry equipping Christian leaders in more than 170 countries. And there's only like 195 countries. So that is a lot to connect the gospel with the sanctity of human life. So, Zach and Alyssa, thanks so much for being here.
[01:05]
B
Thanks for having us on.
[01:06]
C
Yeah.
[01:07]
A
Good to be here. Yeah. So, Alyssa, it was fun to meet you at Share the Arrows. And we played phone and email and text tag for months. So this is fun that it finally worked out. But I'd love it if you just shared a little bit about what Life International is. What do you guys do?
[01:24]
C
Yeah, great. I would love to. So Life International was born out of a pro life pregnancy resource center here in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Our founder is named Kurt Dillinger and he was the director of that center here in Grand Rapids. And Kurt really felt like the Lord was directing him to take the Father's heart for Life and take it to the nations. So I think initially he thought that that would look like starting pregnancy resource cent around the world. Over time realized that that wasn't quite what was going to have to happen for it to be successful. So it morphed from being more of like an addition process to a multiplication process where we now partner with Christian leaders, whether that's pastors or ministry leaders, to equip them with the theology and the biology of life in a way that makes connections for them that maybe aren't immediately obvious. And so we are in 172 countries right now with Zach being our international director. He can definitely speak to how that has all unfolded. But we are very committed to the Gospel being the foundational truth and obviously the worldview that has to be in place for people to really, well, have life and have it to the full. So we are very intentional, intentional about not forgetting the Gospel and only pursuing pro Life ministries and helping People start pro life ministries around the world. We really want to give people the foundation. And then as a result of the gospel and what we know to be true. What does that mean? And how can you then, in your context, where, in whatever country we're in, where do you see life being the most devalued and how can that be addressed? So that's really the core. We do that through a curriculum. We have several curriculum, but our main curriculum is called Journey of a Life Giver. And so we'll go and do trainings with leaders around the world and offer them that curriculum for free. So we just want to spread the word.
[03:54]
A
Oh, yeah.
[03:54]
C
Yeah.
[03:54]
A
Zach, do you have anything to add?
[03:56]
B
No, that was great. Just. Just to reinforce what you're saying, we. We bring this message of being life giving, and we pair it with the gospel wherever we go. I actually just got a report yesterday from some partners of ours in Uganda who preached a sermon on the value of life. And they brought this message of the sanctity of life into their congregation. And 300 people came to Christ as a result of that ministry work that one day. So we love seeing what the Lord is doing around the world.
[04:27]
A
That's awesome. Okay, so I'm a context person, and sometimes people get very annoyed by this. But when people talk about things, it always makes me think about numerous other things that align with it. But while you were talking, Alyssa, I was thinking about this notion of human dignity and humans having sort of intrinsic value. And I was reminded of Bill Maher and Bill Ben Shapiro, political commentators were chatting, and Ben Shapiro was telling Bill Maher, who's an atheist, why do we agree on 95% of morality? You're an atheist, I'm an orthodox Jew. Why do we agree? And he was laying out this point that America, the West, is post Christian. We've lived in the Christian worldview of human dignity and human worth for 200 years, two centuries. And so an atheist gets to say, oh, I don't really care. I don't want any of that. But they still believe humans have value. And Ben Shapiro's point is you're morally on third base, and now you're pretending it doesn't matter. And so I'm wondering, as we try to connect that to international work, and I don't mean this as a, like, cultural or ethnicity thing at all, because if you think about early Europe, early Europe was. Germans were barbarian, called barbarians, right? And there was human sacrifice, there was slavery. There was all these horrible things. So it's not a ethnicity thing. At all. It's really when Christianity gets into a culture, it changes it because it changes a lot of those practices that are very normal throughout the world. But so you are going into communities maybe, where there isn't an understanding of human dignity. And like you're saying, Alyssa, too, even maybe some of the basic biological things that we have, the benefit of a lot of computers, a lot of information that we can just look up at our fingertips. And maybe a lot of people around the world don't have that. So maybe, Zach, you could start by just saying, when you guys go into a new community, what are the first steps that you kind of make? You probably don't just drop a big, you know, notebook or here's some laptops or something. But how do you build the relationship? And then how do you start equipping people who maybe don't have any Christian context with the idea of human dignity?
[06:41]
B
Yeah, so we really start with a conversation. We want to start that dialogue on where is human life being devalued right now in your culture? And then address those issues from a biblical standpoint. So once we kind of identify the most pressing needs, then we start to open the scripture together. We want to help them discover God's truth, more so than just teaching them or giving it to them through lecture. We want to kind of walk with them, form a relationship with them, and help them to understand the world from a biblical worldview and then incorporate that into their ministries. And then we see cultures being changed because of that. It's such a messy thing, culture and adding then our faith in the worldview. On top of that, we were in Oceania working with a partner from Solomon Islands, and they were hearing this message that you're talking about right now for the first time, a message of equal value between men and women. In Solomon Islands, they still practice the dowry system, and so that caused them to view women through the lens of property and not personhood. And so just sort of unpacking that with them from. From the biblical perspective is really important.
[07:58]
C
I was just gonna say, I completely agree with what Ben Shapiro was saying to Bill Maher. It's like we already are. You're already taking so much of your morality from Christianity, you don't even realize it. And somebody like, who is it Tom Holland that wrote the book Dominion, that makes the whole case for how Christianity has really laid that foundation for all of the west, and yet we don't even recognize it very much anymore. So, like, when Zach and I were chatting the other day, he and I were talking like, it's just so interesting because we primarily partner with Christian leaders. So already professing Christians. And maybe in my ignorance, I said to Zach, I was like, but isn't it so weird to you? Like, how do you reconcile knowing that these are mostly and not all the time? It's like we partner with the leaders, but then they invite more people. So it's not that there aren't people there that may not already be believers, but we're, we're at least forming that initial relationship with Christian leaders and seeing some of the things culturally that to me seems so obviously against God's word. And so I was talking to Zach about that. I'm like, how do you reconcile that? Like, you get to go to all of these countries around the world and for instance, see somebody that's a, that's a pastor, like shaming their congregation for whatever, you know, whatever it may be. And so he was like, yes, but you have to remember, in an honor and shame culture, even though they know God's word, they're not. It's hard for people to break through and see a lot of times their own bias because you're swimming in your own culture. You don't even realize it's what you're part of. So, like, maybe, I don't know if you want to tell that story about that one pastor we were talking about.
[10:01]
B
Yeah, we can get into that in Malawi. We're working with a pastor there who, Alyssa brought it up. That culture is to shame and sort of excommunicate anyone from inside their church who's living in the sin of being pregnant outside of wedlock. And what happens then is when that person is removed from their social structure and all their support system, their life becomes so difficult. And a lot of times these young women are committing suicide. And so we're working with this pastor and the Lord just really convicted him on this one simple idea. This idea of being life giving as Christians, as pastors, as church leaders, we're called to be life giving in everything that we do. And so that simple idea caused him to just repent and spend a whole night up crying and repenting to the Lord for the actions that their church has been doing since then. He's brought this message of being life giving back to his communities. And he's publicly repented from the pulpit. He's going around, he's overseas, 36 different churches in the country. So he's going around to each of the churches repenting, asking for forgiveness. And they're starting over. They're Becoming a life giving church. And right now there's a revival happening inside this community because of this message.
[11:26]
A
Wow. It's amazing. That's awesome. Our pastor does some. Is connected to a seminary in a country in Africa. I forget which one. And so he takes a yearly trip with a number of pastors and they go and do training, seminary training for a bunch of local Christian pastors. And they are doing a lot of that discipleship work. But it's things like, your mom is not allowed to hit your wife, you know?
[11:51]
C
Right.
[11:52]
A
It's like in your culture that maybe is just acceptable and that's been a thing. But he's like, no, as a Christian leader, you should not be allowing that to happen.
[12:00]
B
Yeah, yeah. We've been in cultures where hitting your wife is a sign of love and respect to them. And so they love you enough to sort of correct you on certain ways. This sort of the mindset of the culture. So hit have to really slow down and unpack that for them to try to get to that root idea, pull it out and then insert sort of what scripture says.
[12:24]
A
Yeah. When I was thinking too, with what Alyssa was saying, the American Christian culture just swims in very different water. It's not even like it's better. We're just. We are the example of a culture that has enough food to eat and technology. So you see us being very commercial, materialistic, obese, like, you know, gluttony, sexual sin. I mean, those are the things that are pervasive for us that we swim in. And so when we're trying to talk to Christians, we're like, no, it's not a good idea to go move in or sleep with your boyfriend or girlfriend or some of those things. And but to the point, we are hundreds of years of theology developed. Theology in our language, the Bible in our language at great cost. Again, Europeans were dying to put the Bible in our language hundreds of years ago. And there's probably a lot of communities, languages you're interacting with, where maybe they don't have the Bible in their language or maybe it's newer. Can you talk about that a little bit?
[13:19]
B
We have really partners all over. What's exciting is we've got partners who are right now working on those translations for the first time in Papua New guinea. Again, some places in Oceania where they get to be on the teams where they're translating scripture and then bringing it to their people. We've also got a partner who is working on a sign language adaptation of scripture and our training to reach the deaf community in their country. So it's one of the greatest privileges that we have as a ministry, that we get to walk with people who are doing this type of work, and we get to see how the Lord is moving all around the world. Alyssa and I get such a unique and privileged perspective to see their different expressions of the faith and to see the Lord moving all over. It's really cool.
[14:07]
A
Maybe, Alyssa, you can start with this one, and then Zach can. Can add on. But what are some of the main issues that you guys see across the world? Maybe it's unique to different countries, but when it comes to life, you know, in the United States, we see things like there's marriage struggles, a lot of cohabitation, sex outside of marriage, or teen teen pregnancy. Pregnancy outside of marriage. Is abortion a big challenge? You know, like, what are the main issues that you guys see?
[14:35]
C
I do think largely we. We just keep going back to. The foundation of human life is devalued in every conceivable way because of sin and because of that. You see it in every culture. It's so. It's so the same, and yet might just take on different form forms, which I think is part of why we're so committed to trying to teach from a biblical perspective and like, taking it back to the imago DEI and human beings being made in the image of God and what that really means and how that gives human beings intrinsic value that you don't otherwise get in in other worldviews. So I do know that Zach probably knows better than I do, but, like, percentage wise, the United States, obviously, we have a huge abortion problem. But when you look at the rest of the world, percentage wise, the vast majority of abortions worldwide are not happening in the United States, which is interesting. And, like, the reasons for those abortions are different. And, you know, there's definitely devaluation of human life as it pertains to, like, orphans and people with disabilities and all of those kinds of things. So it's all coming from the same thing, but looks a little bit different. I don't know if you want to jump off of that, Zach.
[16:16]
B
Yeah, I think, you know, there is an underdeveloped theology on the sanctity of human life around the world. And what Alyssa is saying, sort of the fruit of that, where you see life being devalued in all sorts of different aspects. We have partners around the world who are pastors, who, they don't understand the value of life inside the womb, and so they will recommend or counsel their congregations into having abortions. Because they, they don't know. They don't have the biology, they don't have the theology. So many times we hear, I wish I would have known, I wish I would have known this sooner. And so that's part of what we want to bring with our training, is bringing that idea. But it, sex outside of marriage, I mean, that's happening all over the world and it's creating problems all over the world. You take something like God's design for marriage and family and you break it and you live out of that and it creates all kinds of issues.
[17:16]
A
Do you. This is a little bit of a rabbit trail, but do you see poly relationships and polygamy? Is that a significant issue that you're trying to navigate with people?
[17:25]
B
It depends on the part of the world that we're in, but we definitely do see that. And it's something that we have to walk through and kind of unpack with them A lot of times. It's an issue that takes almost generations to really work out and work through where they've created their entire social structure around this concept of marri. And so to, to move away from that takes a lot of time.
[17:49]
A
Yeah, well, and that makes sense because I don't know if the good recommendation. Let's say you go into a culture, a guy has three wives. A guy has three wives.
[17:58]
B
Right.
[17:59]
A
They're pastors, whatever. I mean, are you saying divorce them? Those women now might be destitute or their kids get all split up. So like you're saying it might be. It's a longer term solution. Yeah, but I think we saw that in the New Testament as well there in Christian theology, whatever. There was poly relationships allowed. It wasn't explicitly forbidden. We like to say when people push poly relationships within our work with us promoting marriage, you know, marriages between one man and one woman. Oh, but the Bible included all these other variations. And it's like, well, if you read the story, it does not go well for them. You know, their kids are killing each other, their wives hate each other. It's a problem. So it's not that God is prescribing this as a good thing to do. It was allowed for a culture and a time, but it was, people were moving away from it in the New Testament. And so I've actually heard a stat that said civilizations really couldn't grow and stand without a form of monogamous, like male female marriage. Like polygamy could amass a lot of wealth and you could grow, but then you have a lot of men who don't have a wife and you have a lot of problems and sexual fluidity and all these things like that. Yeah. What do you see around the world? And this is, you know, just because our audience is particularly interested in. In things like reproductive technology. We know that, like, countries like Ukraine are. People are being recruited to be surrogates. And I'm just curious if you've seen any Western influence along ivf, along surrogacy in the context that you work in.
[19:38]
B
Yeah, it definitely exists. Ukraine is a big place for surrogacy. Like you mentioned. I know when the war first broke out, all of those babies then were just left. And so there was a rescue operations to go bring those kids out and put them in safe families. But we see it's really all over the world where that idea of surrogacy is being brought into cultures as a solution to some of the issues that they're working through. I think in India, up until a few years ago, surrogacy was a $2 billion industry. They've reformed it now, so it looks a little bit different now. I think it's around 600 million. But, yeah, these are all ideas that we need to work through and encourage pastors to think through from a biblical perspective.
[20:27]
A
Yeah, it's interesting to think about why, you know, the industry in the United States is looking abroad to use women from other countries. I mean, a piece of it might be the desperation of when you're offering the amount of money that a lot of surrogates are being offered and someone is destitute or desperate to help provide for their family, that's huge. Or just there's like kind of this weird, maybe gross thing of like, well, you know, women around the world don't have these same chemicals or whatever that Americans have been ingesting all this time.
[20:58]
C
So.
[20:59]
A
But it's like looking at people like product, I mean, from the. From the worldview, it's like, let me look and shop through a catalog to make sure I get kind of the best incubator for my child. And, you know, to the point of human dignity and looking at human value, we just are so against the industry, you know, pursuing people only for those ends or a egg selling and all those things.
[21:23]
C
Yeah.
[21:25]
B
And that's what you do see, unfortunately, around the world is you see the powerful oppressing the weak and the wealthy oppressing the poor. And so those motives do play a part of the reality of what's happening. And so, yeah, the church has to address that.
[21:43]
A
So part of what you do is ministry. So you get to a culture, a new country, new context, you connect with probably the Christian leaders that are already there, you connect with maybe non Christian leaders that are already there and, and you do discipleship and sharing the gospel. Sounds like part of it. Is there also an element that's similar to like a crisis pregnancy center or what are some of the other things and services you guys provide?
[22:09]
B
Sure. So when we do a training, that's really the end goal is we want to see what we call life giving ministries now, a life giving ministry. It can look like a pregnancy resource center, it can be an orphanage, it can be a ministry that teaches life skills to young women. Any type of ministry work that seeks to uphold the biblical value of life is a life giving ministry. And so we come in with a theology of life. We teach the biology of life, help them to understand why this is important and why churches need to be addressing this. But we don't want to prescribe any sort of ministry outcome for them. We want the Lord to speak to them, to work through them because they're the ones who know what the needs are of the communities. They're the ones who know what their skill set is and what their resource base looks like. And so we want to walk alongside them as they're kind of discovering what the Lord's calling them to do with this message and then help them start that life giving ministry.
[23:10]
A
That's good. I worked with kids with special needs for a long time before joining them before us. So do you have any cool stories or just things you've seen in terms of making a difference for how people with special needs have been treated?
[23:23]
B
Sure, yeah. We actually have a module for special needs that we've used a little bit in Africa. It's sort of newer for us, but we've also partnered with like the Tim Tebow foundation in doing some of their Night to Shines around the world. It's that idea of as the church, we have to value life. Every life, every everyone is an image bearer of the Lord. And when we're doing that, then it's powerful, it's evangelistic and it changes the culture. And so yeah, we've seen the church really, especially in Africa, sort of make a lot of headway using that special needs ministry.
[24:03]
C
Weren't you saying, I don't know when it was, but something about a particular country in Africa or maybe it's all over Africa, that is it twins are considered like somewhere twins are considered. One of them is.
[24:17]
A
I just looked it up. I just googled it because I Thought of that? Yeah, yeah, it's. Mary Slessor was a Scottish missionary, and I think she went to Nigeria. And Katie shares this story as well. But it's just. It's exactly the example. What you're saying is there's people who come into a context. They have a Christian worldview, and they see how human dignity and rights are being violated. And they used to think in this. Within this people group, if you had twins, one was a demon or demon possessed, but you couldn't tell which, so you had to throw them both out. And she just started rescuing them all. And of course, as they start growing up, everyone realizes they're typical. You know, they're fine. And yeah, it's a beautiful picture of changing. I mean, they stopped the practice because she kept the twins alive. Why are they having so many twins, though? I was wondering, like, I just had inordinate amount of twins, right? Yeah. That's awesome. Well, for just a final thought, where. What are some ways people. Where they. Where can people find you? And do you have opportunities for people to get involved? Is it donating? Can they go on a trip, help develop resources? How can people help?
[25:26]
C
Yeah, so there's a lot of different ways, but mainly I would say go to our website, which is Life international dot com. Check out, you know, all the stories that we have there, and we have forms there. If you want to become part of our global prayer shield where we. We always pray with the people who are going on trips, we'll send at least a couple people about a month before we go do a training to lay the groundwork with prayer so you can pray with us in that way if you join our global prayer shield. We definitely are very interested in doing journey of a life givers here in the US we'll come to different churches if we can connect with people in leadership and, you know, provide that opportunity. And yeah, I mean, definitely we have people who have been with us for a while that do go on trips and become trainers. I'm trying to think how else you might be able to get involved. Zach, do you have stuff that comes to mind?
[26:34]
B
No. It's a great list. If somebody is. Is feeling like the Lord is calling them to help take this message to the nations and they want to participate, just reach out to us. Alyssa mentioned the website. That's a great first step. The website is brand new, actually, and Alyssa and her team crushed it. So it's awesome resource and we'd love people to check it out.
[26:56]
C
Awesome.
[26:56]
A
Okay, we'll make sure your all that information is in our notes so people can go find you. But it's just so exciting to hear about work. Everyone is doing the work, their work, in their little corner. You know, whether you're home with your kids, whether you're out in the workforce. You know, we have ministry and things we're being called to do. So there's people, there's us doing ministry, quote unquote, or, you know, doing. Doing work. But there's also, like. I like that you said prayer shield. I mean, for Christians, you understand there was a quote that said, prayer isn't part of the work. It is the work. If you actually believe that it makes a difference, that is one of the most important things you can do. So we'll make sure people can connect with you guys. But appreciate your time and thanks for all the work you're doing.
[27:37]
C
Yeah. Thank you so much for having us. Love it.
[27:41]
B
We appreciate being on. Thank you, John.
[27:43]
A
Yep. All right, everyone, hope you enjoyed this conversation. Check the notes for details and go find Life International, and we will catch you guys next time.

Summary5 min read

Them Before Us Podcast #108 | The Powerful, the Weak, and Global Human Dignity — Life International

Release Date: August 7, 2026
Host: Jennifer Friesen, Training Director, Them Before Us
Guests: Zach (Director of International Ministries, Life International), Alyssa (Director of Communications, Life International)

Episode Overview

This episode explores the global work of Life International, a Christian organization empowering leaders in 172 countries to embrace and promote the sanctity of human life. Host Jennifer Friesen talks with guests Zach and Alyssa about their training approach, the challenges of addressing human dignity across diverse cultural contexts, and the intersection of faith, culture, and children’s rights. The conversation features stories of transformation, thoughtful discussion on reproductive technology, and practical advice for listeners interested in supporting global pro-life, pro-family efforts.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introducing Life International (00:06–03:53)

Foundation & Mission:
- Started from a pregnancy resource center in Grand Rapids, Michigan.
- Founder, Kurt Dillinger, sought to spread “the Father’s heart for Life” globally, focusing on multiplication by equipping local Christian leaders rather than simply establishing new centers (02:00).
Curriculum & Training:
- Main resource: Journey of a Life Giver curriculum offered for free to empower leaders with a solid foundation in the theology and biology of life.
- Emphasis on the Gospel as the core worldview that transforms perspectives on human life.
- "We are very committed to the Gospel being the foundational truth... What does that mean? And how can you then, in your context... address [areas] where life is most devalued?" – Alyssa (02:57)

2. Establishing Human Dignity Across Cultures (04:26–07:58)

Starting with Relationships:
- Initial step is understanding how and where life is devalued in each culture.
- Approach is conversational and relationship-building, not prescriptive lectures.
- Example: In the Solomon Islands, biblical teaching on equal value for men and women confronts dowry-based views of women as property (06:57).
Quote:
- “We start that dialogue on where is human life being devalued right now in your culture, and then address those issues from a biblical standpoint.” – Zach (06:40)

3. Faith, Culture, and Moral Foundations (07:58–13:18)

Cultural Blind Spots for Christians:
- Even church leaders can be unaware of how their cultural norms conflict with biblical teaching.
- Example: In Malawi, a pastor traditionally shamed and expelled unwed mothers. Upon recognizing the biblical call to be life-giving, he publicly repented and led a community-wide transformation (10:00–11:26).
- “...That simple idea caused him to just repent and spend a whole night up crying and repenting... Now there’s a revival happening... because of this message.” – Zach (10:38)
Western Context:
- Contrasts American Christian cultural issues (materialism, sexual sin) with those prevalent elsewhere.
- Acknowledgement that many communities are working with less developed theological resources, and some are only recently getting the Bible in their own language (12:23–13:18).

4. Global Issues in Life and Family (14:07–19:37)

Common Themes:
- All cultures struggle with the devaluation of life, but manifestations differ: abortion, orphan care, disability, marriage norms, etc.
- Majority of abortions occur outside the U.S.; reasons and contexts vary globally (14:34).
- Lack of biological and theological understanding of life leads to harmful pastoral advice, including recommending abortion (16:16).
- Widespread issues with sex outside of marriage and resulting social challenges.
Polygamy and Poly Relationships:
- Ongoing challenges, especially in communities where polygamy is the social foundation.
- Reformation toward monogamy is gradual and requires generations to shift established social structures (17:25–17:48).

5. Western Influence & Reproductive Technologies (19:37–21:43)

Surrogacy and IVF:
- Western demand for surrogacy often leads to exploitation of poorer women in countries like Ukraine and India.
- “You see the powerful oppressing the weak and the wealthy oppressing the poor... Those motives do play a part of the reality of what's happening." – Zach (21:24)
Ethical Concerns:
- Host and guests express strong opposition to commodifying human life and treating people as products.

6. Practical Ministry Approaches (22:08–23:10)

'Life Giving Ministries':
- Focus on developing context-appropriate ministries (pregnancy centers, orphan care, life skills ministries) driven by local needs and leadership rather than rigid models.
- Empowerment rather than prescription: “We want the Lord to speak to them... because they're the ones who know what the needs are of the communities.” – Zach (22:49)

7. Supporting People with Special Needs (23:10–24:16)

Curriculum & Partnerships:
- Development of a special needs module; partnerships with organizations like Tim Tebow’s Night to Shine.
- Highlight: Changing cultural perceptions, such as rescuing twins in contexts where they were previously seen as cursed or demonic.

8. Ways to Get Involved (25:26–26:56)

Get Involved:
- Website: lifeinternational.com
- Join global prayer shield, invite curriculum trainings, donate, or become a trainer.
- “Prayer isn’t part of the work. It is the work.” – Jennifer (26:56)

Notable Quotes

On the transmission of Christian values:
“You’re already taking so much of your morality from Christianity, you don’t even realize it.” – Alyssa (07:58)
On contextualizing ministry:
“It's such a messy thing, culture and adding then our faith in the worldview on top of that.” – Zach (06:40)
On repentance and church transformation:
“...He’s brought this message of being life giving back to his communities. And he’s publicly repented from the pulpit... There’s a revival happening inside this community because of this message.” – Zach (10:40)
On Western exploitation in reproductive technology:
“It's like looking at people like product... Let me look and shop through a catalog to make sure I get kind of the best incubator for my child.” – Jennifer (20:58)
On prayer as core ministry:
“Prayer isn’t part of the work. It is the work. If you actually believe that it makes a difference, that's one of the most important things you can do.” – Jennifer (26:56)

Key Timestamps for Important Segments

Intro to Life International & Global Mission — 00:06–03:53
Approach to Cultural Engagement & Case Studies — 04:26–07:58
Faith, Culture & Moral Foundations — 07:58–13:18
Global Issues: Abortion, Disability, Orphan Care, Marriage Norms — 14:07–19:37
Western Influence & Ethics of IVF/Surrogacy — 19:37–21:43
Defining & Supporting Life-Giving Ministries — 22:08–23:10
Special Needs Module & Stories of Change — 23:10–24:16
How Listeners Can Get Involved — 25:26–26:56

Final Thoughts

The episode powerfully illustrates how theological training, compassionate relationship-building, and respect for local contexts are vital for effective global pro-life and pro-family work. The guests emphasize humility, patience, and the transformative impact of faith-led approaches while acknowledging complex ethical challenges posed by both local traditions and Western cultural exports.

For more or to get involved, visit Life International’s website at lifeinternational.com.

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[00:06]
A
Hey everyone. Welcome to the Them Before Us podcast. I'm your host, Jen Friesen. And today we are interviewing a few people from another great organization that is doing Pro Life Pro family work. And this organization in particular focuses on countries around the world. And I got to meet Alyssa at the Share the Arrows conference where Katie spoke. That's Ali B. Stuckey's conference last year. So, yeah, two of the folks from Life International are joining us. We have Zach, who is the director of International ministries for Life International. He champions the Father's heart for Life and empowers communities to recognize the biblical value of every human being. And then Alyssa is the director of communications for Life International. And this is a global ministry equipping Christian leaders in more than 170 countries. And there's only like 195 countries. So that is a lot to connect the gospel with the sanctity of human life. So, Zach and Alyssa, thanks so much for being here.
[01:05]
B
Thanks for having us on.
[01:06]
C
Yeah.
[01:07]
A
Good to be here. Yeah. So, Alyssa, it was fun to meet you at Share the Arrows. And we played phone and email and text tag for months. So this is fun that it finally worked out. But I'd love it if you just shared a little bit about what Life International is. What do you guys do?
[01:24]
C
Yeah, great. I would love to. So Life International was born out of a pro life pregnancy resource center here in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Our founder is named Kurt Dillinger and he was the director of that center here in Grand Rapids. And Kurt really felt like the Lord was directing him to take the Father's heart for Life and take it to the nations. So I think initially he thought that that would look like starting pregnancy resource cent around the world. Over time realized that that wasn't quite what was going to have to happen for it to be successful. So it morphed from being more of like an addition process to a multiplication process where we now partner with Christian leaders, whether that's pastors or ministry leaders, to equip them with the theology and the biology of life in a way that makes connections for them that maybe aren't immediately obvious. And so we are in 172 countries right now with Zach being our international director. He can definitely speak to how that has all unfolded. But we are very committed to the Gospel being the foundational truth and obviously the worldview that has to be in place for people to really, well, have life and have it to the full. So we are very intentional, intentional about not forgetting the Gospel and only pursuing pro Life ministries and helping People start pro life ministries around the world. We really want to give people the foundation. And then as a result of the gospel and what we know to be true. What does that mean? And how can you then, in your context, where, in whatever country we're in, where do you see life being the most devalued and how can that be addressed? So that's really the core. We do that through a curriculum. We have several curriculum, but our main curriculum is called Journey of a Life Giver. And so we'll go and do trainings with leaders around the world and offer them that curriculum for free. So we just want to spread the word.
[03:54]
A
Oh, yeah.
[03:54]
C
Yeah.
[03:54]
A
Zach, do you have anything to add?
[03:56]
B
No, that was great. Just. Just to reinforce what you're saying, we. We bring this message of being life giving, and we pair it with the gospel wherever we go. I actually just got a report yesterday from some partners of ours in Uganda who preached a sermon on the value of life. And they brought this message of the sanctity of life into their congregation. And 300 people came to Christ as a result of that ministry work that one day. So we love seeing what the Lord is doing around the world.
[04:27]
A
That's awesome. Okay, so I'm a context person, and sometimes people get very annoyed by this. But when people talk about things, it always makes me think about numerous other things that align with it. But while you were talking, Alyssa, I was thinking about this notion of human dignity and humans having sort of intrinsic value. And I was reminded of Bill Maher and Bill Ben Shapiro, political commentators were chatting, and Ben Shapiro was telling Bill Maher, who's an atheist, why do we agree on 95% of morality? You're an atheist, I'm an orthodox Jew. Why do we agree? And he was laying out this point that America, the West, is post Christian. We've lived in the Christian worldview of human dignity and human worth for 200 years, two centuries. And so an atheist gets to say, oh, I don't really care. I don't want any of that. But they still believe humans have value. And Ben Shapiro's point is you're morally on third base, and now you're pretending it doesn't matter. And so I'm wondering, as we try to connect that to international work, and I don't mean this as a, like, cultural or ethnicity thing at all, because if you think about early Europe, early Europe was. Germans were barbarian, called barbarians, right? And there was human sacrifice, there was slavery. There was all these horrible things. So it's not a ethnicity thing. At all. It's really when Christianity gets into a culture, it changes it because it changes a lot of those practices that are very normal throughout the world. But so you are going into communities maybe, where there isn't an understanding of human dignity. And like you're saying, Alyssa, too, even maybe some of the basic biological things that we have, the benefit of a lot of computers, a lot of information that we can just look up at our fingertips. And maybe a lot of people around the world don't have that. So maybe, Zach, you could start by just saying, when you guys go into a new community, what are the first steps that you kind of make? You probably don't just drop a big, you know, notebook or here's some laptops or something. But how do you build the relationship? And then how do you start equipping people who maybe don't have any Christian context with the idea of human dignity?
[06:41]
B
Yeah, so we really start with a conversation. We want to start that dialogue on where is human life being devalued right now in your culture? And then address those issues from a biblical standpoint. So once we kind of identify the most pressing needs, then we start to open the scripture together. We want to help them discover God's truth, more so than just teaching them or giving it to them through lecture. We want to kind of walk with them, form a relationship with them, and help them to understand the world from a biblical worldview and then incorporate that into their ministries. And then we see cultures being changed because of that. It's such a messy thing, culture and adding then our faith in the worldview. On top of that, we were in Oceania working with a partner from Solomon Islands, and they were hearing this message that you're talking about right now for the first time, a message of equal value between men and women. In Solomon Islands, they still practice the dowry system, and so that caused them to view women through the lens of property and not personhood. And so just sort of unpacking that with them from. From the biblical perspective is really important.
[07:58]
C
I was just gonna say, I completely agree with what Ben Shapiro was saying to Bill Maher. It's like we already are. You're already taking so much of your morality from Christianity, you don't even realize it. And somebody like, who is it Tom Holland that wrote the book Dominion, that makes the whole case for how Christianity has really laid that foundation for all of the west, and yet we don't even recognize it very much anymore. So, like, when Zach and I were chatting the other day, he and I were talking like, it's just so interesting because we primarily partner with Christian leaders. So already professing Christians. And maybe in my ignorance, I said to Zach, I was like, but isn't it so weird to you? Like, how do you reconcile knowing that these are mostly and not all the time? It's like we partner with the leaders, but then they invite more people. So it's not that there aren't people there that may not already be believers, but we're, we're at least forming that initial relationship with Christian leaders and seeing some of the things culturally that to me seems so obviously against God's word. And so I was talking to Zach about that. I'm like, how do you reconcile that? Like, you get to go to all of these countries around the world and for instance, see somebody that's a, that's a pastor, like shaming their congregation for whatever, you know, whatever it may be. And so he was like, yes, but you have to remember, in an honor and shame culture, even though they know God's word, they're not. It's hard for people to break through and see a lot of times their own bias because you're swimming in your own culture. You don't even realize it's what you're part of. So, like, maybe, I don't know if you want to tell that story about that one pastor we were talking about.
[10:01]
B
Yeah, we can get into that in Malawi. We're working with a pastor there who, Alyssa brought it up. That culture is to shame and sort of excommunicate anyone from inside their church who's living in the sin of being pregnant outside of wedlock. And what happens then is when that person is removed from their social structure and all their support system, their life becomes so difficult. And a lot of times these young women are committing suicide. And so we're working with this pastor and the Lord just really convicted him on this one simple idea. This idea of being life giving as Christians, as pastors, as church leaders, we're called to be life giving in everything that we do. And so that simple idea caused him to just repent and spend a whole night up crying and repenting to the Lord for the actions that their church has been doing since then. He's brought this message of being life giving back to his communities. And he's publicly repented from the pulpit. He's going around, he's overseas, 36 different churches in the country. So he's going around to each of the churches repenting, asking for forgiveness. And they're starting over. They're Becoming a life giving church. And right now there's a revival happening inside this community because of this message.
[11:26]
A
Wow. It's amazing. That's awesome. Our pastor does some. Is connected to a seminary in a country in Africa. I forget which one. And so he takes a yearly trip with a number of pastors and they go and do training, seminary training for a bunch of local Christian pastors. And they are doing a lot of that discipleship work. But it's things like, your mom is not allowed to hit your wife, you know?
[11:51]
C
Right.
[11:52]
A
It's like in your culture that maybe is just acceptable and that's been a thing. But he's like, no, as a Christian leader, you should not be allowing that to happen.
[12:00]
B
Yeah, yeah. We've been in cultures where hitting your wife is a sign of love and respect to them. And so they love you enough to sort of correct you on certain ways. This sort of the mindset of the culture. So hit have to really slow down and unpack that for them to try to get to that root idea, pull it out and then insert sort of what scripture says.
[12:24]
A
Yeah. When I was thinking too, with what Alyssa was saying, the American Christian culture just swims in very different water. It's not even like it's better. We're just. We are the example of a culture that has enough food to eat and technology. So you see us being very commercial, materialistic, obese, like, you know, gluttony, sexual sin. I mean, those are the things that are pervasive for us that we swim in. And so when we're trying to talk to Christians, we're like, no, it's not a good idea to go move in or sleep with your boyfriend or girlfriend or some of those things. And but to the point, we are hundreds of years of theology developed. Theology in our language, the Bible in our language at great cost. Again, Europeans were dying to put the Bible in our language hundreds of years ago. And there's probably a lot of communities, languages you're interacting with, where maybe they don't have the Bible in their language or maybe it's newer. Can you talk about that a little bit?
[13:19]
B
We have really partners all over. What's exciting is we've got partners who are right now working on those translations for the first time in Papua New guinea. Again, some places in Oceania where they get to be on the teams where they're translating scripture and then bringing it to their people. We've also got a partner who is working on a sign language adaptation of scripture and our training to reach the deaf community in their country. So it's one of the greatest privileges that we have as a ministry, that we get to walk with people who are doing this type of work, and we get to see how the Lord is moving all around the world. Alyssa and I get such a unique and privileged perspective to see their different expressions of the faith and to see the Lord moving all over. It's really cool.
[14:07]
A
Maybe, Alyssa, you can start with this one, and then Zach can. Can add on. But what are some of the main issues that you guys see across the world? Maybe it's unique to different countries, but when it comes to life, you know, in the United States, we see things like there's marriage struggles, a lot of cohabitation, sex outside of marriage, or teen teen pregnancy. Pregnancy outside of marriage. Is abortion a big challenge? You know, like, what are the main issues that you guys see?
[14:35]
C
I do think largely we. We just keep going back to. The foundation of human life is devalued in every conceivable way because of sin and because of that. You see it in every culture. It's so. It's so the same, and yet might just take on different form forms, which I think is part of why we're so committed to trying to teach from a biblical perspective and like, taking it back to the imago DEI and human beings being made in the image of God and what that really means and how that gives human beings intrinsic value that you don't otherwise get in in other worldviews. So I do know that Zach probably knows better than I do, but, like, percentage wise, the United States, obviously, we have a huge abortion problem. But when you look at the rest of the world, percentage wise, the vast majority of abortions worldwide are not happening in the United States, which is interesting. And, like, the reasons for those abortions are different. And, you know, there's definitely devaluation of human life as it pertains to, like, orphans and people with disabilities and all of those kinds of things. So it's all coming from the same thing, but looks a little bit different. I don't know if you want to jump off of that, Zach.
[16:16]
B
Yeah, I think, you know, there is an underdeveloped theology on the sanctity of human life around the world. And what Alyssa is saying, sort of the fruit of that, where you see life being devalued in all sorts of different aspects. We have partners around the world who are pastors, who, they don't understand the value of life inside the womb, and so they will recommend or counsel their congregations into having abortions. Because they, they don't know. They don't have the biology, they don't have the theology. So many times we hear, I wish I would have known, I wish I would have known this sooner. And so that's part of what we want to bring with our training, is bringing that idea. But it, sex outside of marriage, I mean, that's happening all over the world and it's creating problems all over the world. You take something like God's design for marriage and family and you break it and you live out of that and it creates all kinds of issues.
[17:16]
A
Do you. This is a little bit of a rabbit trail, but do you see poly relationships and polygamy? Is that a significant issue that you're trying to navigate with people?
[17:25]
B
It depends on the part of the world that we're in, but we definitely do see that. And it's something that we have to walk through and kind of unpack with them A lot of times. It's an issue that takes almost generations to really work out and work through where they've created their entire social structure around this concept of marri. And so to, to move away from that takes a lot of time.
[17:49]
A
Yeah, well, and that makes sense because I don't know if the good recommendation. Let's say you go into a culture, a guy has three wives. A guy has three wives.
[17:58]
B
Right.
[17:59]
A
They're pastors, whatever. I mean, are you saying divorce them? Those women now might be destitute or their kids get all split up. So like you're saying it might be. It's a longer term solution. Yeah, but I think we saw that in the New Testament as well there in Christian theology, whatever. There was poly relationships allowed. It wasn't explicitly forbidden. We like to say when people push poly relationships within our work with us promoting marriage, you know, marriages between one man and one woman. Oh, but the Bible included all these other variations. And it's like, well, if you read the story, it does not go well for them. You know, their kids are killing each other, their wives hate each other. It's a problem. So it's not that God is prescribing this as a good thing to do. It was allowed for a culture and a time, but it was, people were moving away from it in the New Testament. And so I've actually heard a stat that said civilizations really couldn't grow and stand without a form of monogamous, like male female marriage. Like polygamy could amass a lot of wealth and you could grow, but then you have a lot of men who don't have a wife and you have a lot of problems and sexual fluidity and all these things like that. Yeah. What do you see around the world? And this is, you know, just because our audience is particularly interested in. In things like reproductive technology. We know that, like, countries like Ukraine are. People are being recruited to be surrogates. And I'm just curious if you've seen any Western influence along ivf, along surrogacy in the context that you work in.
[19:38]
B
Yeah, it definitely exists. Ukraine is a big place for surrogacy. Like you mentioned. I know when the war first broke out, all of those babies then were just left. And so there was a rescue operations to go bring those kids out and put them in safe families. But we see it's really all over the world where that idea of surrogacy is being brought into cultures as a solution to some of the issues that they're working through. I think in India, up until a few years ago, surrogacy was a $2 billion industry. They've reformed it now, so it looks a little bit different now. I think it's around 600 million. But, yeah, these are all ideas that we need to work through and encourage pastors to think through from a biblical perspective.
[20:27]
A
Yeah, it's interesting to think about why, you know, the industry in the United States is looking abroad to use women from other countries. I mean, a piece of it might be the desperation of when you're offering the amount of money that a lot of surrogates are being offered and someone is destitute or desperate to help provide for their family, that's huge. Or just there's like kind of this weird, maybe gross thing of like, well, you know, women around the world don't have these same chemicals or whatever that Americans have been ingesting all this time.
[20:58]
C
So.
[20:59]
A
But it's like looking at people like product, I mean, from the. From the worldview, it's like, let me look and shop through a catalog to make sure I get kind of the best incubator for my child. And, you know, to the point of human dignity and looking at human value, we just are so against the industry, you know, pursuing people only for those ends or a egg selling and all those things.
[21:23]
C
Yeah.
[21:25]
B
And that's what you do see, unfortunately, around the world is you see the powerful oppressing the weak and the wealthy oppressing the poor. And so those motives do play a part of the reality of what's happening. And so, yeah, the church has to address that.
[21:43]
A
So part of what you do is ministry. So you get to a culture, a new country, new context, you connect with probably the Christian leaders that are already there, you connect with maybe non Christian leaders that are already there and, and you do discipleship and sharing the gospel. Sounds like part of it. Is there also an element that's similar to like a crisis pregnancy center or what are some of the other things and services you guys provide?
[22:09]
B
Sure. So when we do a training, that's really the end goal is we want to see what we call life giving ministries now, a life giving ministry. It can look like a pregnancy resource center, it can be an orphanage, it can be a ministry that teaches life skills to young women. Any type of ministry work that seeks to uphold the biblical value of life is a life giving ministry. And so we come in with a theology of life. We teach the biology of life, help them to understand why this is important and why churches need to be addressing this. But we don't want to prescribe any sort of ministry outcome for them. We want the Lord to speak to them, to work through them because they're the ones who know what the needs are of the communities. They're the ones who know what their skill set is and what their resource base looks like. And so we want to walk alongside them as they're kind of discovering what the Lord's calling them to do with this message and then help them start that life giving ministry.
[23:10]
A
That's good. I worked with kids with special needs for a long time before joining them before us. So do you have any cool stories or just things you've seen in terms of making a difference for how people with special needs have been treated?
[23:23]
B
Sure, yeah. We actually have a module for special needs that we've used a little bit in Africa. It's sort of newer for us, but we've also partnered with like the Tim Tebow foundation in doing some of their Night to Shines around the world. It's that idea of as the church, we have to value life. Every life, every everyone is an image bearer of the Lord. And when we're doing that, then it's powerful, it's evangelistic and it changes the culture. And so yeah, we've seen the church really, especially in Africa, sort of make a lot of headway using that special needs ministry.
[24:03]
C
Weren't you saying, I don't know when it was, but something about a particular country in Africa or maybe it's all over Africa, that is it twins are considered like somewhere twins are considered. One of them is.
[24:17]
A
I just looked it up. I just googled it because I Thought of that? Yeah, yeah, it's. Mary Slessor was a Scottish missionary, and I think she went to Nigeria. And Katie shares this story as well. But it's just. It's exactly the example. What you're saying is there's people who come into a context. They have a Christian worldview, and they see how human dignity and rights are being violated. And they used to think in this. Within this people group, if you had twins, one was a demon or demon possessed, but you couldn't tell which, so you had to throw them both out. And she just started rescuing them all. And of course, as they start growing up, everyone realizes they're typical. You know, they're fine. And yeah, it's a beautiful picture of changing. I mean, they stopped the practice because she kept the twins alive. Why are they having so many twins, though? I was wondering, like, I just had inordinate amount of twins, right? Yeah. That's awesome. Well, for just a final thought, where. What are some ways people. Where they. Where can people find you? And do you have opportunities for people to get involved? Is it donating? Can they go on a trip, help develop resources? How can people help?
[25:26]
C
Yeah, so there's a lot of different ways, but mainly I would say go to our website, which is Life international dot com. Check out, you know, all the stories that we have there, and we have forms there. If you want to become part of our global prayer shield where we. We always pray with the people who are going on trips, we'll send at least a couple people about a month before we go do a training to lay the groundwork with prayer so you can pray with us in that way if you join our global prayer shield. We definitely are very interested in doing journey of a life givers here in the US we'll come to different churches if we can connect with people in leadership and, you know, provide that opportunity. And yeah, I mean, definitely we have people who have been with us for a while that do go on trips and become trainers. I'm trying to think how else you might be able to get involved. Zach, do you have stuff that comes to mind?
[26:34]
B
No. It's a great list. If somebody is. Is feeling like the Lord is calling them to help take this message to the nations and they want to participate, just reach out to us. Alyssa mentioned the website. That's a great first step. The website is brand new, actually, and Alyssa and her team crushed it. So it's awesome resource and we'd love people to check it out.
[26:56]
C
Awesome.
[26:56]
A
Okay, we'll make sure your all that information is in our notes so people can go find you. But it's just so exciting to hear about work. Everyone is doing the work, their work, in their little corner. You know, whether you're home with your kids, whether you're out in the workforce. You know, we have ministry and things we're being called to do. So there's people, there's us doing ministry, quote unquote, or, you know, doing. Doing work. But there's also, like. I like that you said prayer shield. I mean, for Christians, you understand there was a quote that said, prayer isn't part of the work. It is the work. If you actually believe that it makes a difference, that is one of the most important things you can do. So we'll make sure people can connect with you guys. But appreciate your time and thanks for all the work you're doing.
[27:37]
C
Yeah. Thank you so much for having us. Love it.
[27:41]
B
We appreciate being on. Thank you, John.
[27:43]
A
Yep. All right, everyone, hope you enjoyed this conversation. Check the notes for details and go find Life International, and we will catch you guys next time.